Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jim Colton on October 06, 2010, 12:20:49 PM
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Check out Keith Rhebb's photostream on Flickr. Is this it?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/sets/72157624336297903/detail/
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(http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/4868438493/in/set-72157624336297903/)
If this is Florida then it looks like a fantastic piece of property! Sandy soil and rolling topography...check and check.
Who is Keith Rhebb?
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Keith's a shaper for C&C. I believe he was the project lead for them down at Lost Farms.
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Where in Florida is this property located?
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I think somewhere around here.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=27.685808,-81.940455&num=1&t=h&sll=27.654642,-81.929684&sspn=0.098681,0.150032&ie=UTF8&ll=27.685694,-81.94037&spn=0.024663,0.037508&z=15
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Great find Jim...looks great!!! The landscape definitely doesn't look like Florida to me....very neat to see some rolling nature to the land
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I guess it's ok to talk about it then?
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Doesn't look like any part of Florida I've been to.....Road Trip!.......
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How far is this property from Sugarloaf Mountain?
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Doesn't look like any part of Florida I've been to.....Road Trip!.......
LOL - Yeah the sourrounding area is absolutely tourist heaven ;).
base out of Tamp or Orlando or be prepared to step back in time a few years. This is a pretty redneck part of Florida. If I am not mistaken it is a little southeast of Lakeland which is roughly midway between Tampa and Orlando but Polk County Florida is a rather unique part of Central Fla.
A bit further south than I thought... not in Polk County but in Hardee.
Iam guessing that those calling it Bandon eat may be far closer than they imagine to the reality of this project.
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Doesn't look like any part of Florida I've been to.....Road Trip!.......
LOL - Yeah the sourrounding area is absolutely tourist heaven ;).
base out of Tamp or Orlando or be prepared to step back in time a few years. This is a pretty redneck part of Florida. If I am not mistaken it is a little southeast of Lakeland which is roughly midway between Tampa and Orlando but Polk County Florida is a rather unique part of Central Fla.
Greg,
Is that the area they call the Florida Sand Belt? If I recall correctly, Sugarloaf is in said sand belt.
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Doesn't look like any part of Florida I've been to.....Road Trip!.......
LOL - Yeah the sourrounding area is absolutely tourist heaven ;).
base out of Tamp or Orlando or be prepared to step back in time a few years. This is a pretty redneck part of Florida. If I am not mistaken it is a little southeast of Lakeland which is roughly midway between Tampa and Orlando but Polk County Florida is a rather unique part of Central Fla.
I thought it was supposed to be a 36 hole resort?
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There's something about ancient shark cartilage. I think it was mined here. There's a fishing show from this area on the outdoor channel, I think?
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Looks like lots of fun playing in the sand.
For a different Florida, i remember in my past spending time in Lake County (just north & west of Olando). It actually has rolling hills, very different for Florida. I distinctly remember coming up a rise on the 4 lane couny road I was on and having the Orlando skyline in my windshield.
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Looks like a great place for a course.
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We are not supposed to talk about the project until they have a name for the resort and a public event, which is scheduled for late November.
We may be pretty far along in construction by then. We started six weeks ago and each firm has 7 or 8 greens roughed in and bunkers for those holes, too. It is beautiful sand to work in, and really a site unlike any other we have seen. But that is about as much as I can tell you for now, other than that it's a pleasure to hang out with Bill and Ben and Keith and Jeff and Jimbo, in addition to my own crew.
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That part of Fla is pancake flat. The only hills there are piles made from the remnants of phosphate mining. You don't see the 'rolling' center of Fla until you get more north.
Make sure your tank is full and your cell phone is charged if you travel through this area, and get back before dark. ;D
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Jeez, Jim. Wauchula is a nice little town. I'm headed there for dinner shortly, with no fear at all.
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We are not supposed to talk about the project until they have a name for the resort and a public event, which is scheduled for late November.
We may be pretty far along in construction by then. We started six weeks ago and each firm has 7 or 8 greens roughed in and bunkers for those holes, too. It is beautiful sand to work in, and really a site unlike any other we have seen. But that is about as much as I can tell you for now, other than that it's a pleasure to hang out with Bill and Ben and Keith and Jeff and Jimbo, in addition to my own crew.
I bet, Tom. Knowing all you guys will produce two outstanding golf courses at that site, have fun with it. Could be a "legendary" experience and production when all's "said and done".
Congrats :)
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Tom,
I wasn't talking about two-legged creatures. ;)
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Tom, great to see this coming along!
I drove through this area of Florida in February and it is a tad remote....but 2 hours from Tampa or Orlando airport is a lot closer than Bandon.
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I am curious to see how the Doak crews and the C&C crews will achieve the "natural" look on these sites. As Jim mentioned the area is very flat so any contours and undulations will be completely man made and not likely to blend it at all with the surrounding landscape. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.
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JC - I think the fun here for the architects is that the property isn't florida flat, having been blown up (figuratively) during the site's previous life as some type of mining operation, such that the mounding and hollows aren't the product of conscious thought or an architect's eye, and so are as random as can be.
Peter
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How far is this property from Sugarloaf Mountain?
Roughly 2 hours south of Sugarloaf and about an hour south and west of Mountain Lake. Most importantly, 1 1/2 hours from Disney World!
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Peter,
That part of Florida is not like the rolling center of Florida, but having the terrain that's shown in the last photo on the first page as part of a golf course would not be a bad thing.
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JC - I think the fun here for the architects is that the property isn't florida flat, having been blown up (figuratively) during the site's previous life as some type of mining operation, such that the mounding and hollows aren't the product of conscious thought or an architect's eye, and so are as random as can be.
Peter
I understand the appeal of the randomness of the contours on the property and I'm not questioning the potential greatness of the golf courses. If you look at a couple of the aerials in the pictures you can clearly see how much of the sites is still flat and how the contoured areas do not blend well with the surrounding landscape.
So, whether created by the mining company at random or by the architect with purpose, I am still curious to see how these guys pull off the natural look with such a flat surrounding when much of my understanding of natural golf courses is their ability to blend in to the landscape (i.e. Ballyneal).
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So, whether created by the mining company at random or by the architect with purpose, I am still curious to see how these guys pull off the natural look with such a flat surrounding when much of my understanding of natural golf courses is their ability to blend in to the landscape (i.e. Ballyneal).
Stop drinking the juice JC!! ::)
Tell me how natural the land and surroundings are this weekend when you play that abandoned rock quarry surrounded by a housing track. :-*
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So, whether created by the mining company at random or by the architect with purpose, I am still curious to see how these guys pull off the natural look with such a flat surrounding when much of my understanding of natural golf courses is their ability to blend in to the landscape (i.e. Ballyneal).
Stop drinking the juice JC!! ::)
Tell me how natural the land and surroundings are this weekend when you play that abandoned rock quarry surrounded by a housing track. :-*
Will you be grilling hot dogs in your back yard? And it is next weekend.
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Modest changes in elevation, sandy soil, treeless terrain, maybe an almost free (possibly) hand w/regulators to improve/reclaim what looks to have been a mining operation, no 'rock' to deal with, and above all - Wind!
I'm thinking TOCWest ;D
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Modest changes in elevation? Rolling terrain? Mostly flat?
This site is awesome for golf and nothing I'd describe as modest, rolling or flat. I'd describe it as very "edgy".
Pure sand, incredible dune like features, and two great architectural firms.
This will be the project everyone talks about very soon, and not just because there is so little work going on elsewhere. These guys have an opportunity to build something unlike anything else ever built in the southern US.
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Looks pretty flat to me.
But I'm very optimistic that something wonderful will be created in that giant sand box.
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Modest changes in elevation? Rolling terrain? Mostly flat?
This site is awesome for golf and nothing I'd describe as modest, rolling or flat. I'd describe it as very "edgy".
Pure sand, incredible dune like features, and two great architectural firms.
This will be the project everyone talks about very soon, and not just because there is so little work going on elsewhere. These guys have an opportunity to build something unlike anything else ever built in the southern US.
Don,
I play a fair amount of golf around Central Florida and World Woods has been an awfully good facility for years. The lodging has always been awkward but that does not change that the one course is really good and the other is at least good. http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/world-woods-pine-barrens-fl-usa
I am a fan of C&C and I like Sugarloaf Mountain more than many here, but there is no way that it compares with a number of their other courses. Sugarloaf has the benefit of elevation changes too.
With Mountain Lake nearby sitting on sand and having some pretty nice rolling terrain, our friends at C&C and Doak are not exactly breaking new ground here. Raynor did that in 1915.
Just saying we should probably understand more about the the courses and the resort. Assuming that Tom is not going to copy another architect this time, we will just have to hope he has one more in him. ;)
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This will be the project everyone talks about very soon, and not just because there is so little work going on elsewhere. These guys have an opportunity to build something unlike anything else ever built in the southern US.
Couldn't agree with you more on that last part, Don. It'll be the best (FREE) feasibility study to come along in ages and could possibly help to repopulate the #'s of that ever shrinking band of brothers -- US golf developers.
I wonder if being 1 1/2 to 2 hours from a major airport may actually help, (not so much this project specifically mind you), but the future of the industry itself by encouraging a few more dreamers with fundamentally sound business models to move forward in developing golf on good to great land (most) anywhere in America within say 2 hours of a Southwest Airlines terminal. Of course I know nothing about the FL business plan, other than they've hired very wisely two of the very best firms to build their courses, AND build them together - very different! and be a public operation. That dream of sort of the Bandon East that many have dreamed of for years I reckon -- this one could be the way forward.
Way too premature to try to predict anything, but what if this one was able to blaze the path for similar coalitions of the minimalist ilk? Again, I have a feeling that this is going to be a seriously important case study.
I wish all involved much success and I can't wait to watch it develop.
Eric
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Mike,
Actually I think they are breaking new ground here...or at least they should be. I'll leave it at that.
We will see in a year or so when we've had a chance to see how the courses will be presented.
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I'm very excited about this....the landscape really does seem like something I've never seen before, and being located on the East coast now, I'll have this within driving distance. ;D
Tom - When you can answer in a month or two.....any collaboration between the two teams, or completely separate? Any thought to having the courses have similar feel/flow, or contrasting?
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Here comes a stupid question, what is with all the various size and shapes of man make lakes and ponds in the part of Florida?
Do landowners dig these holes to collect water (ground or rain water), farm, grow crocs, or what? These areas have to be breeding grounds for who-knows how many varieties of flying and crawling bugs ...
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guys,
Keith's photo's aside, I think we should mothball this discussion until it's officially been launched....
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Great find Jim...looks great!!! The landscape definitely doesn't look like Florida to me....very neat to see some rolling nature to the land
The odd part about this statement is that this is what MOST of Florida looks like from about 10-15 miles inland on either side.
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guys,
Keith's photo's aside, I think we should mothball this discussion until it's officially been launched....
Its sort of hard to stop discussing when...
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guys,
Keith's photo's aside, I think we should mothball this discussion until it's officially been launched....
Its sort of hard to stop discussing when...
Look, nobody here let the cat out of the bag. This guy should not have posted the pictures and Tom should not have teased the group with prior comments that begged questions and interest.
It is out there... let's discuss.
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I will say given the parties involved and the other available golf in the area... this place will be an instant hit. TD and C&C will produce there normal wonderful product that will probably be as well received as World Woods if not far better I suspect. Weird place for a big project but so was Bandon... some folks are just ahead of the curve.
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Great find Jim...looks great!!! The landscape definitely doesn't look like Florida to me....very neat to see some rolling nature to the land
The odd part about this statement is that this is what MOST of Florida looks like from about 10-15 miles inland on either side.
Having only been to Pensacola, Destin, and Miami, to ME, it doesn't look like Florida...regardless of whether it looks like FL or not, I think it's some very interesting land to place a golf course on and I'm excited to see what Tom and C&C can produce.
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guys,
Keith's photo's aside, I think we should mothball this discussion until it's officially been launched....
In all fairness to Jim Colton, Jud, Tom Doak was the first to bring the project to this site's attention and has been freely discussing some parts of it since (all with the obligatory preface of "this isn't public yet, but...."). I don't think it is particularly off limits for this board. It may very well be off limits for the parties involved, but that is not our concern.
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Shit. There was an article about the project in the local paper about a year ago. As I recall, the paper interviewed the developer, who spoke freely.
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John,
Feel free to discuss it all you want, but without anybody actually involved with the project commenting on it, everything from this post forward is all speculation and b.s.
The official launch is on November 17th and I will be back shortly after that to give you the real lowdown (and some pictures). By then we should have 10-12 holes shaped on each course.
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John,
Feel free to discuss it all you want, but without anybody actually involved with the project commenting on it, everything from this post forward is all speculation and b.s.
The official launch is on November 17th and I will be back shortly after that to give you the real lowdown (and some pictures). By then we should have 10-12 holes shaped on each course.
Tom,
Did you not take any communication courses in Ithaca? Commenting about not commenting on multiple post is considered commenting in some circles of the world! If you google "commenting about not commenting", some people might even say this is how the Renaissance Marketing Machine is taking cues from The White House and Brett Farve. ;)
Thanks for not letting us know the "Official" launch date. ???
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Mike:
Brett Favre's marketing machine is so slick you don't even know how to spell his name. And I didn't start this thread, I tried to stop it.
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Mike:
Brett Favre's marketing machine is so slick you don't even know how to spell his name. And I didn't start this thread, I tried to stop it.
Tom
That's all you got? Come on you can be a little more clever than that. ;)
If you keep pointing out mine and others typos on your threads ON THE INTERNET, I am sure that Google will soon be able to index this thread, congratulations to your marketing team.
And please don't tell us how you the architect are trying to stop a thread. I am sure the paparazzi will stop shooting pictures of Paris Hilton when she says "don't take pictures of me." ::)
I'm not going to post the message in a million years, but you have already sent me a IM about someone here posting on this thread with the potential for economic gain from the project.
Nobody is saying they don't want to learn about Tom Doak projects before they are open. I especially want to know about this one since it is in Central Florida where I often visit with my family. Kavanaugh may be gone from the site to call you out occasionally, but enough is enough with the Marketing 201 from Renaissance Golf. Just tell us about the project at the appropriate time, which appears to be November 17.
Thanks
PS. Before you post another response, I suggest you heed the advice of my friend Mike Young below:
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Well, how exciting is this development? I just got back from a whrilwind trip to Bandon- got to play OM and Trails in one day (had Trails to myself in the afternoon-preview of itinerary in the afterlife?) Anyway, with all the doom and gloom around GCA the last couple of years- this is a damn exciting project! I'll be working in FL for the rest of the year- after I try out World Woods for the first time, I think I'll make a dry run to the town that starts with a W that TD seems to be fond of
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Jeez, Jim. Wauchula is a nice little town. I'm headed there for dinner shortly, with no fear at all.
Cue the "Deliverance" dueling banjos in the background. ;D
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This is less than 2 hours from my house!
I couldn't be more thrilled.
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I can't wait for the announcement next month. There are several struggling housing development courses in Central Florida that were aimed at retirees.
Who's going to play here? Beside me. It'll be awesome if it can become a destination. As good as the golf is, World Woods just hasn't been able to become that in nearly 20 years. Grenelefe is long past its glory.
Very interested in seeing the progress. Highway 17 is a direct route to Fort Myers from Orlando, so I know that road well. Tom's dinner plans took him to Wauchula. I can also vouch for Arcadia.
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I have a friend, 'Croc' Slaughter, who lives in Arcadia, and I've been there to see him many times. When he moved from a trailer to hisnew house he had a big pig roast for the neighbors and invited me down. When I asked him for directions he told me the name of the road and said that I wouldn't miss his house. He was right, the pig's head was nailed to a tree at the road end of his long driveway.
Good tires and a tank full of gas aren't bad to have if you're out driving around in central Florida at night. I have never seen as many dead snakes and other assorted roadkill anywhere else I've ever driven. If I had a flat tire out there at night I'd change it while laying on my hood. ;D I don't think you'd want to try and walk to the next gas station if you ran out either and I've never seen anyone walking out there in the evening, although I have seen a gas can or two on the side of the road. :o
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Here comes a stupid question, what is with all the various size and shapes of man make lakes and ponds in the part of Florida?
Do landowners dig these holes to collect water (ground or rain water), farm, grow crocs, or what? These areas have to be breeding grounds for who-knows how many varieties of flying and crawling bugs ...
I think the reason is that the elevation is so low that basically any swale fills with water. It's not like property owners dig most of them.
It's also why there are no basements in Florida -- if you dig a hole in peninsular Florida, it will fill with water because the water table is so high.
Futhermore, developers build retainage ponds so water has somewhere to go. Because it's so very flat, when hurricanes come there is no where for water to run too. So these ponds act as a capacitor. Finally some are built for irrigation purposes. In many places public water is used for irrigation. But because of the heat & sun you have to irrigate more often in Florida and so homeowners used reclaimed water from these retainage ponds for water lawns -- which means it stinks. But it's better environmentally and cheaper than using potable water for irrigation.
And you're right about breeding ground for who-knows-what: When I moved here 3 years ago I learned that gators aren't the biggest thing to be afraid of swimming in Florida's lakes -- it's the one-celled organisms that can cause nasty infections if either swallowed or they get in open wounds.
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I too thought raynor built a very good course not far from here in 1915. I am thrilled this project is this far along. A year ago was not that optimistic. Well this tiger is a west coast man now so I may not see it as much as I once thought. Oh this is pert close to the infamous dead water Florida from al bundy fame
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I too thought raynor built a very good course not far from here in 1915. I am thrilled this project is this far along. A year ago was not that optimistic. Well this tiger is a west coast man now so I may not see it as much as I once thought. Oh this is pert close to the infamous dead water Florida from al bundy fame
that has to be the first time Al Bundy has been mentioned on GCA! well done Tiger ;)
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And you're right about breeding ground for who-knows-what: When I moved here 3 years ago I learned that gators aren't the biggest thing to be afraid of swimming in Florida's lakes -- it's the one-celled organisms that can cause nasty infections if either swallowed or they get in open wounds.
When the single-cell amoeba enter through the nose it is almost always fatal if they take hold in the brain. No Central Florida deaths this year, but there have been several recently.
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Tomorrow is November 17...
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Today is November 17...
Not in Florida...
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OMG, I can't wait.
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Today is November 17...
Not in Florida...
But getting close
http://www.examiner.com/golf-in-national/architects-doak-coore-crenshaw-design-courses-at-new-fla-resort
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The best is the opening line ..... :
"loosely guarded secret"
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Apparently Mr. Seanor's calendar is on Asian time, too. Or he was confident that going one day early would not bite the hand that feeds him, which may have been a bad call.
Anyway, I have to be at an official announcement ceremony tomorrow, and will be free to talk about it afterward. I've been trying to get some pictures today but don't know what I came out with as the clouds arrived early.
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Am glad to see that Nov. 17th is special for more ways than one :P
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Wow- those pictures from the Seanor article are amazing. I can't believe they were taken in Florida. I am only a GCA enthusiast- so my following question will likely unmask my turf ignorance- but are there options for what kind of grass will be used? Bermuda grass, IMO, really takes away from the enjoyment of a course. I understand in the southeast US, there are not many options. I played Newport Dunes, a decent linkslike layout near Corpus Christi this year- they used paspalum turf and I found it far more desirable to bermuda for punch shots and ground game.
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This project was announced in Nov. 2009:
http://www.cfdc.org/news/mosaic-plans-resort-facility-in-polk-county/
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Congrats to Doak and C&C. Great to have these guys in the dirt!
http://bit.ly/biEVf4
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http://www.theledger.com/article/20101117/NEWS/101119867/1410?Title=Mosaic-s-Resort-to-be-Named-Streamsong
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google (not sweeney) says 48 miles.....mt lake/raynor to c&c/doak....
heaven 8)
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What a perfect location! Halfway between World Woods and PGA Golf Club (Dye Course!)
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Will grass, etc... grow on that sand?
Looks like a fun opportunity!
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google (not sweeney) says 48 miles.....mt lake/raynor to c&c/doak....
heaven 8)
Yes but Sweeney calculates his distances in helicopter miles.
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(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/johnmkirk/7thHoleStreamsong.jpg)
Doak is a genius! A par 3 across the water? How does he see these things?
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Will there be a small boat to get the golfer across the pond?
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JC
We will have to build a low footbridge across the pond, because you have to come back across to get to the next tee. You get the greens mowers etc in from the back of the green down a narrow slot from the 18th hole on the other course.
The tee for this hole is actually way up to the right from where this picture was taken, so you are coming sharply downhill into the green from right to left. If the flag is to the right, you might have to come in partially over the big shoulder on the right. I got a very good picture from the tee which I will try to post tomorrow, if someone would be so kind as to help me with that.
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Glad to be of service: ;D
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/mbbradley/blue71.jpg)
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It will be neat to see what kind of composite course, if any, comes out of this.
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What a great project from two great firms! The excitement in the treehouse may be hard to contain. This may overshadow the Merion threads!
Now the question remains, after this Doak design, will all of Florida remain a Doak 0? ;)
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Will there be a small boat to get the golfer across the pond?
JC, there is a course called Brocket Hall just outside the M25 NW of London. There is a 70-100 yard wide river that runs through it. You ride a self-propelled boat across from the pro shop to the first tee and later from 18th hole second landing area to the green side. Then you ride back across to the pro shop. There is a big arched bridge that you cross the river on three other times. Peter Allis designed the course about 20 years ago. Pretty cool boat rides, better than several of the golf holes.
Here's the ferry:
(http://golf-club.brocket-hall.co.uk/assets/images/552width/melbourne.jpg)
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(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/mbbradley/blue71.jpg)
I don't know about you guys but THIS really does send shivers down my spine. Kudos to the person or persons behind the vision. Judging from the pics and knowing the quality of the teams involved, this property will yield Florida's two greatest golf courses imo. I'm not talking 'lists' greatest (though they likely will be up there at or near the top someday), I'm talking 'golf' greatest. Think John Kirk's definition of seeing the golf ball react to the ground. I've only learned it this year and will look nay further for any other kind. :)
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What a great project from two great firms! The excitement in the treehouse may be hard to contain. This may overshadow the Merion threads!
Now the question remains, after this Doak design, will all of Florida remain a Doak 0? ;)
95% of it still will be.
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Tom,
Can you tell us anything about that big 'hill' off in the distance? Will there be golf around it?
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/mbbradley/blue71.jpg)
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Great picture, Bart. That shows the landforms much better.
For anybody who may have misinterpreted my remarks, it was an attempt at sarcasm.
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Eric,
A drop shot par 3 over water brings "shivers" up your spine?
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Glad to be of service: ;D
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/mbbradley/blue71.jpg)
Tom, is that a bunker scratched out front right?
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http://www.theledger.com/article/20101117/NEWS/11175082/1410?Title=Fore-Mosaic-Plans-Resort#
Looks like a great opportunity to showcase what golf can do FOR the environment.
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Eric,
A drop shot par 3 over water brings "shivers" up your spine?
Dude -- I am moved by the landforms shown in the picture! That is not the Florida I've been seeing for 30 years! Whether or not this particular shot is categorized as a 'drop shot' is irrelevant to me as I am not a hater of such things. I will be thrilled to someday place my peg in the ground here on this beauty of a hole and then sending a hooking Titleist off to explore the junk high up on the big dune to the left, just like in the sand hills of Colorado and Nebraska and so on.
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Glad to be of service: ;D
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/mbbradley/blue71.jpg)
That's a pretty cool looking hole (water or not). Reminds me of #9 at Yale?
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Imagine where the next tee box could be!!!
Man, it would have been cool to see this thing come around from day one. Finding the holes, figuring out the routing, detailing it all as it comes together. I am jealous/envious.
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Interesting routing with both courses interlaced together.
Who's red and who's blue? (Not a political question)
If I were to take a guess, I'd put $2 on C&C taking the red perimeter routing.
http://www.streamsongresort.com/gallery/hr/siteplan.jpg
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Interesting routing with both courses interlaced together.
Who's red and who's blue? (Not a political question)
If I were to take a guess, I'd put $2 on C&C taking the red perimeter routing.
http://www.streamsongresort.com/gallery/hr/siteplan.jpg
Looking at the routing, the hole Tom posted would be on the Blue so you would be the $2 winner.
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Slag:
Good guess. I gave Bill the choice between the two courses, because In truth about 24 of the 36 holes were ones that he came up with first ... remarkably, NOT including #7 on the blue course pictured above. He chose the Red course, supposedly on the basis of Jimbo Wright telling him to pick the course where there was more earthmoving (I.e. More work for Jimbo) involved. The first four holes of the Red course are in some seriously big stuff ... I just got a glimpse of #1 yesterday, it reminds me of the first at Portrush, but with a much more dramatic tee shot.
My crew has done a lot of chuckling that we are the Blue course and Ben is red ... probably a fairly accurate representation of the politics there! However, I doubt the two will wind up being Red and Blue in the end, there will probably be more marketable names so they can sell some shirts.
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Tom,
Can you tell us anything about that big 'hill' off in the distance? Will there be golf around it?
Eric:
That hill is a giant pile of material from one of the other phosphate mines in the area. I think it is maybe four miles as the crow flies ... and I am not sure if it belongs to Mosaic or not, as there are a couple of other companies neighboring the property. But the golf stops well short of there.
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I like drop shot par 3s, and I can't think of many that will be cooler than that.
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Tom
How many forced carried over water will there be on the course, or on how many holes does water play a major role?
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(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/679c84a6.jpg?t=1290106928)
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google (not sweeney) says 48 miles.....mt lake/raynor to c&c/doak....
heaven 8)
Yes but Sweeney calculates his distances in helicopter miles.
Mike has been known,with his unassuming manner, to "fly under the radar"...sometimes...
but for a transplanted New Yorker, he sure knows his way around Central Fl.
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Tom
How many forced carried over water will there be on the course, or on how many holes does water play a major role?
Ross,
On our course, the tee shot on #3 requires a diagonal carry, the seventh you've seen now, the second shot on #12 has a carry if you are trying to get home in two, the 13th has water lurking left, and the tee shot on #14 is a big diagonal carry.
On Bill's course, I think water is in play on the first tee shot and on #2 ... the mining operation changed the landscape considerably over there ..and then on holes 5 and 7 and 13 and 16. But very few of Bill's holes require any carry from the middle tees, as far as I have seen to date.
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My crew has done a lot of chuckling that we are the Blue course and Ben is red ... probably a fairly accurate representation of the politics there! However, I doubt the two will wind up being Red and Blue in the end, there will probably be more marketable names so they can sell some shirts.
Like Cousin Eddie at the buffet in National Lampoon's Vegas Vacation:
"I'll take a little bit of the red and a little bit of the blue"
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Tom,
Does your course have a semi-remote start and finish?
- Will
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Tom,
This par 3 over the water reminds me a bit of the 9th at Yale without the trees. Also I see on the layout posted by the Emperor (Eric!) that you have a Lido type split fairway par 5. Look forward to this coming to fruition!
Cheers
Ben
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Looking at the renderings of the conference center/hotel, it makes me think of the Sawgrass facility- which is a slight letdown from my admitedly hyper expectations. When C&C and Doak are designing at the same location it is hard not to halucinate about a Bandon like resort in Florida. This now looks like a more traditional resort, conf center, golf destination. Except the golf undoubtedly will be fabulous!
When I sober up from my Bandon/FL hallucinations- this really is a "who would have thunk?" development. Who could have predicted a mining co. from Minnesota would have the foresite to hire these archies at a location that no one would have dreamed existed. In Florida (great weather, shit GCA) no less. For me, this projects is at least as exciting as Old MacDonald. Objectively, OM is another amazing course at a buffet of amazing courses. If OM had not been built, we would all still consider Bandon as one of the top golf destinations in the world.
Florida, on the other hand, is bereft- to put it nicely. We all go there for the weather and play golf, but it is always with the ever present notion that these courses are wanting. I'd argue that World Woods gets over inflated ratings due to the "flatness of the terrain" (pun intended) of the other courses in FL. Put World Woods in Scottsdale or Las Vegas and it would fade into the woodwork.
But these two new courses will change the whole conversation in FL. On a side note, when looking at the diagram of the Red and Blue layouts and the decidedly less water carries on the Red (C&C) course, I couldn't help thinking of the Bill Coore quote, "We don't do water holes".
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Tom
Thanks for the response. Just wondered as the photos of the site seemed to show a lot of water that presumably gathered in many areas due to mining activities.
Does the fact the water features are a result of industrial processes give them a unique look compared to other courses?
On the par three seventh do you think it will be possible to land a ball up on the shoulders and the bank and let it run back down onto the green. In some ways taking the water out of play more than on a normal water carry par three as you can club up and feel safe in doing so.
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Tom
Thanks for the response. Just wondered as the photos of the site seemed to show a lot of water that presumably gathered in many areas due to mining activities.
Does the fact the water features are a result of industrial processes give them a unique look compared to other courses?
On the par three seventh do you think it will be possible to land a ball up on the shoulders and the bank and let it run back down onto the green. In some ways taking the water out of play more than on a normal water carry par three as you can club up and feel safe in doing so.
Ross,
These lakes are not like very many I have seen. In many cases the golf holes are ten or even twenty feet above water level, with very steep banks down to the waterline. We may have to change some of that for safety's sake.
As for the shot on 7, there is already much speculation amongmmy crew about whether balls will come off the backboard along the right flank of the green. If you blow up the photo, you can see that about 60 feet up the hill to the right there is a crumpled leftover of corrugated metal pipe (it looks like the rib cage of a dinosaur) ... Mike McCartin is determined to be the first guy to bounce one off that pipe and down onto the green. But, I certainly don't think you will be able to count on the ball coming down the bank ... The majority will stay up there somewhere that it will be hard to even climb up to. The only other green I have seen next to a hill that big is the 16th at Ballybunion.
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Tom,
Does your course have a semi-remote start and finish?
- Will
Will,
Not really. The first tee is up on a huge dune and the eighteenth green is down at grade, both of them about 200 yards out away from the clubhouse. There will be a large practice green in between, plus room to stage carts for big outings. :P You can also see on the map around the SW corner of the big lake by the clubhouse, there will be a little bye hole ... not to play back in when you finish, but to play from the clubhouse end in the evenings after a couple of beers. We anticipate that hole will be lit for play after dark.
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You can also see on the map around the SW corner of the big lake by the clubhouse, there will be a little bye hole ... not to play back in when you finish, but to play from the clubhouse end in the evenings after a couple of beers. We anticipate that hole will be lit for play after dark.
Now that would be cool.
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"the majority will stay up there somewhere that it will be hard to even climb up to"
I like the sound of that, a shot that needs mountain goat balance on a steep bank and a flop shot back towards a lake. :'(
Also like the idea that you will leave some of the remnants of the sites previous use, like the corrugated iron dinosaur ribs. Are there any other artefacts that will survive?
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Tom,
With your mention of carts for larger outings, is there a hope that this will be mainly a walking facility?
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Ben,
I imagine that would be a tough sell for a Florida resort in the summer. I'd be all for it though...
That begs an OT question, are there any courses whose walking only policies are seasonal?
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A 36 hole day on a C & C and then a Doak! Where else, realistically (by car) could you do that? Denver area with Common Ground and CGC; Lost Farm/Barnbougle Dunes; and Bandon? Am I missing any?
I also remembered Friar's Head and Sebonak, but my odds of a 36 there are NOT that great!
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Matthew,
No doubt it would be a tough sell for some. Old Memorial remains walking year round and with a caddy it's not nearly as bad as one would think.
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A 36 hole day on a C & C and then a Doak! Where else, realistically (by car) could you do that? Denver area with Common Ground and CGC; Lost Farm/Barnbougle Dunes; and Bandon? Am I missing any?
Warren Course/Lost Dunes
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Ben,
Good point, and I've heard the vibe at Old Memorial is quite special.
I just think that due to its much more accessible location (as opposed to Bandon), this new project will attract a somewhat different clientele and for better or worse, walking probably won't be a priority for many (especially when it is 98 degrees with near 100% humidity). I'm only speculating though, and if they forge ahead with at least a walking friendly agenda I'll applaud. We'll see, the entire context around the opening of this resort will be interesting.
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Ted Cahill,
I agree about the lodging. If they build what the rendition depicts it will be a lost opportunity. That's looks like just a slightly more updated version of the standard box resort so common in greater Orlando. I would have liked to see something more deconstructed and indigenous.
Tom,
There's a lot of sand built up above grade on this site. How far below the surface does it go? I'm wondering about drainage; the land around the site looks pretty flat, but if memory recalls you're a decent bit above sea level there, no?
What are your thoughts about the grasses you might use in that climate and how they might affect the design?
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I did not realize that Old Memorial was walking only. I will have to try and get our client to go play there.
The courses are built to be walkable. However, it is inconceivable that with the type of group business they will cater to, that the majority of people won't be in carts. It would have been pretty hot to walk 18 holes yesterday, at about 80 degrees.
Derek,
The lake level is 128 feet above sea level. There are a couple of places where the overburden material Includes stuff that isn't as sandy, but most of the site is sand down well below the water table.
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I did not realize that Old Memorial was walking only. I will have to try and get our client to go play there.
The courses are built to be walkable. However, it is inconceivable that with the type of group business they will cater to, that the majority of people won't be in carts. It would have been pretty hot to walk 18 holes yesterday, at about 80 degrees.
Derek,
The lake level is 128 feet above sea level. There are a couple of places where the overburden material Includes stuff that isn't as sandy, but most of the site is sand down well below the water table.
It's a relief to hear the courses will be walkable. I happily accept that many (especially resort golfers) want to play with carts. But I don't like it when walking is forbidden either by rule or course layout. Not suprising that TD and CC are designing their courses to be walked, but it's nice to hear it from the horses mouth.
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Old Memorial has a superb vibe and super caddie staff in the main. I was fortunate enough to tee it up late May, of last year, and they just nailed the entire experience. Friendly staff, low-key pro shop, solid fare and refreshments in a classy, but relaxed grill. The track was stout and had plenty of interest, despite the flattish terrain.
As good as that all was, the topper was... the best individual group of caddies I've ever been around. I've done the job for living and always respect quality caddies. I'd also rate myself as setting a high bar in my evaluation of the caddie dynamic when I'm at a destination facility or club. As it was a slower day, play-wise, our threesome all had singles;every one was rock solid. I saw a couple of others, in action with players in during the course of our round (Vinny Testeverde was a few holes ahead with another group) and I saw some smooth pros just doing their thing. My view has always been...the really special places just are...nothing is forced, there is just a rightness about how everything unfolds during your day at a place. That's Old Memorial!
Great ground demands a quality caddie staff. Weather players choose to walk or ride is irrelevant, that quality caddie experience just takes the whole thing to another level. I hope that Streamsong development ownership gets to sample what a superb TOTAL experience, such as Old Memorial delivers, is all about.
All the really top shelf tracks have the quality caddie dynamic. It could be more consistent in some cases, but at least its there. Those that claim they're on that level, all about pure golf, and don't...sorry they just don't have the same juice.
Cheers 8)
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My only question is will the mining company get partial design credit for creating the unnaturally occuring features on the back of which the golf offering is being built?
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Greg,
They should get partial shaping credit, really. But I don't know if they would take it. Both Bill and I like the name Mosaic and think it should be attached to the resort directly, but the company board seems reluctant to tie their future directly to a business so far outside their core function.
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Greg,
They should get partial shaping credit, really. But I don't know if they would take it. Both Bill and I like the name Mosaic and think it should be attached to the resort directly, but the company board seems reluctant to tie their future directly to a business so far outside their core function.
Tom, Obviously I was half joking but with as cool as that green site is it were as though you had a covert ops crew within the mining industry. Mosaic does seem a nice name for the place.
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Greg:
That just goes to prove what I have always felt ... we are more creative just finding cool stuff on a site than we could ever be trying to create it ourselves.
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Tom
There has been a great deal of talk on here about innovation and golf course architecture. Is it possible that using ex industrial sites like your Florida project and chambers bay could by where such innovation may come from? The idea of reusing an industrial site certainly sits better with me than the likes of trump ripping up an sssi.
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It would have been pretty hot to walk 18 holes yesterday, at about 80 degrees.
you've got to be kidding or your blood has really thinned!
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Steve:
Thinned, or thickened? Really, I'm just out of shape, but no more so than most of the golfers in America.
I'm from the great white north. It was 80 degrees, the site is 100% sand reflecting the heat, and there is very little opportunity for shade. I would have been pretty sweaty trying to carry my bag and play. But I would have done so anyway, just because I am stubborn and I hate to take a cart except for the comfort of my playing companions.
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Maybe it's obnoxiously obvious, but since I played there 2 springs ago, I'll stick my neck out.
This project has similarities in the land type as Victoria National in Indiana, correct??
If so, maybe Mr. Doak can speak as to the differences and/or similarities?
I thoroughly enjoyed my round at Victoria Nat'l, but now imagining the playing experience, visual and design challenges on that property given a Doak or C&C --- well if I'm anywhere close in my assessment, it's a very exciting proposal.
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Nick,
No, the site does not really remind me of Victoria National at all. There is much greater and broader elevation change, and you can see across the site in many places, whereas at Victoria the mining works give each hole a sense of seclusion (and lack of air movement!).
Actually, one of the other sites on the Mosaic property DID remind me a lot of Victoria National, having been very recently mined, and without the vegetation growing back over the site. Both Bill and I preferred to work on what we have, which is why we conspired to digger out how to get 36 holes into the prime location.
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Living in Orlando, I'm thrilled with this news. The way the courses intertwine is also fascinating.
Are there two cape holes on the Renaissance 18? Whoever drew the blue lines took an especially aggressive carry on the far upper left cape hole.
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Jason:
We are supposed to be filling in a bit of the lake on #14 Blue, which I think is the hole you referenced, so the carry won't be so difficult.
Unfortunately, we have found that the lake is 30 or 40 feet deep (!) in the little cove which we intended to fill. So we are probably going to move the tees up a bit instead of trying to fill it out so far.
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Ted Cahill,
I agree about the lodging. If they build what the rendition depicts it will be a lost opportunity. That's looks like just a slightly more updated version of the standard box resort so common in greater Orlando. I would have liked to see something more deconstructed and indigenous.
Indigenous to central fla? I dont think a lot of folks are gonna pay to stay in trailers or tar paper
although trailers might give it a ballybunion feel
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Article in today's Wall Street Journal on the controversy over Mosaic's phosphate mining operation in Florida:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703945904575645142173001212.html?mod=ITP_pageone_1
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Mosaic Mosaic Mosaic. I kept thinking, weird I've never heard of Mosaic since I'm from Minnesota.
Turns out Mosaic is a division of Cargill. Now it makes sense.
Good article. Thanks for sharing.
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Tom Doak:
36-hole complex with courses named Red and Blue that have intertwining routings?
Which one of you and Bill is Simpson and which of you is Fowler?
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Tom Doak:
36-hole complex with courses named Red and Blue that have intertwining routings?
So, I guess the composite course will be called the Purple Course. Or would that be the Moderate Course?
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11,000 acres...well if no more mining, how about another 50 courses? :o
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Tom Doak:
36-hole complex with courses named Red and Blue that have intertwining routings?
So, I guess the composite course will be called the Purple Course. Or would that be the Moderate Course?
Add a third course -- the White -- and it's the All American Course, or the National Golf Course of America.
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Fellow GCA-er Tom Dunne recently visited the Doak course under construction at the future Songstream Resort and posted a nice writeup (with pics) on his Out And Back website. Here is a link:
http://www.out-and-back.net/?p=2489
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Thanks for the link David.
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It would have been pretty hot to walk 18 holes yesterday, at about 80 degrees.
You're kidding right? 80 degrees being pretty hot to walk. That's hardly above room temperature. Heck I walk 18 on a course the requires you to be a billy goat (300 feet top to bottom) all the time in the summer in Cincinnati. Last year I did it on day of 98 degrees with the humidity in the 90% range. I walk all the time at Pinehurst in the summer too. At least in Florida the courses are flat.
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It would have been pretty hot to walk 18 holes yesterday, at about 80 degrees.
You're kidding right? 80 degrees being pretty hot to walk. That's hardly above room temperature. Heck I walk 18 on a course the requires you to be a billy goat (300 feet top to bottom) all the time in the summer in Cincinnati. Last year I did it on day of 98 degrees with the humidity in the 90% range. I walk all the time at Pinehurst in the summer too. At least in Florida the courses are flat.
Not all of us have the 36 hole/day 6 days/week regiment to help us get in shape Steve! :D
These pictures look outstanding. I wonder what the stability of the site will be like as the sand looks very fine.
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Steve:
Streamsong is anything but flat. You've got to climb up a 40-foot dune just to get to my first tee. And I was walking in open sand on that 80-degree day, which does make a bit of difference. It's definitely walkable in those conditions, but not everybody is going to do it.
Alex:
What in the heck does "fine sand" have to do with "the stability of the site"? Can you provide an example where a course was unstable because the sand was too fine?
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Steve:
Streamsong is anything but flat. You've got to climb up a 40-foot dune just to get to my first tee. And I was walking in open sand on that 80-degree day, which does make a bit of difference. It's definitely walkable in those conditions, but not everybody is going to do it.
Alex:
What in the heck does "fine sand" have to do with "the stability of the site"? Can you provide an example where a course was unstable because the sand was too fine?
I've known plenty of women that were unstable and fine
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Steve:
Streamsong is anything but flat. You've got to climb up a 40-foot dune just to get to my first tee. And I was walking in open sand on that 80-degree day, which does make a bit of difference. It's definitely walkable in those conditions, but not everybody is going to do it.
Alex:
What in the heck does "fine sand" have to do with "the stability of the site"? Can you provide an example where a course was unstable because the sand was too fine?
I'm sorry, I really don't know. I guess my question should have had more to do with the property itself. I don't know very much about the actual construction process, so are there any challenges or advantages that will prove themselves in construction given the site's natural state?
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Steve:
Streamsong is anything but flat. You've got to climb up a 40-foot dune just to get to my first tee. And I was walking in open sand on that 80-degree day, which does make a bit of difference. It's definitely walkable in those conditions, but not everybody is going to do it.
Alex:
What in the heck does "fine sand" have to do with "the stability of the site"? Can you provide an example where a course was unstable because the sand was too fine?
I've known plenty of women that were unstable and fine
:D
Alex: The only "stability" issue we have had to worry about is whether some of the very steep lake banks need to be pulled back a bit. They weren't building those edges for stability when they were doing the mining. Some of the sand has been drifting a little bit in the wind, but that shouldn't be a problem once we get irrigation on it.
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Tom,
I forget where I read it, but I saw something about a problem with irrigation?
Are you installing pipe as we speak and will grass be growing by late spring?
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Don:
We've been having problems with the final permit to use the water in the lakes for irrigation, but I have been told that a temporary permit is in place. I hope that's the case, because the irrigation system has been bid out and awarded, and they are supposed to start in the next week or ten days; or at least that was the schedule before I took off for China.
We are skeptical that we will be able to grass all 36 holes this summer, but we should have the majority of the courses grassed this year with a few holes carrying over to early spring of 2012.
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Tom D. -
Will there be any disruption of the project as a result of the spinoff of Mosaic from Cargill?
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SPDB: I don't believe so. Both entities have been fully informed on the project from the beginning; it's not like Mosaic is the subject of a hostile takeover. [That actually happened to a project of mine, once; we were about to start construction when the company was taken over and the new owners had no interest in a development project.] And our client informed us of the change when I was down there last month, with no indication that it created any issues for the development of the resort.
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http://www.theledger.com/article/20110220/NEWS/102205023/1410?Title=Mosaic-Hopes-to-Draw-Golfers-to-Courses-by-Famed-Designers
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I am wondering if this is in the Lake Wales Sand Ridge so that it would be neighbor to Smyer's Southern Dunes and Lee's Diamondback, or maybe C&C's Sugarloaf Mtn, but I think it must be quite south of there.
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Yes, it is quite a bit south of Orlando, and somewhat west as well
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Garland -
The property is near Fort Meade, FL. It is due east of St. Petersburg, about 1/3 of the way across the state.
DT
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27*40'44.22"N 81*56'10.95"W - Google Earth shows progress as of December 2010
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Matty G posted a story with some pics of Streamsong, including one of Tom D standing in front of a water hazard.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/04/update-and-images-streamsong-r.html
It looks like Keith Rhebb's photostream has been updated with recent pics as well.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/
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Nice catch Jim, Keith's pics are great. Love the colors... Trying to picture grassing lines and the transitions between native areas, sand and turf!
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We've got a nice piece on Streamsong in the new edition of our mag (published last week) featuring several of Keith's pics - it looks really great. I had a fun day there with Bill in February.
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Looks pretty interesting from here - remote, but interesting
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a116/cbmacfan/streamsong.jpg)
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Matty G posted a story with some pics of Streamsong, including one of Tom D standing in front of a water hazard.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/04/update-and-images-streamsong-r.html
It looks like Keith Rhebb's photostream has been updated with recent pics as well.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/
I love the comment about Tom Doak's allergy to marketing the product.
Seeing him placed on the property for that photo reminds me of the old advertising trick where if you wanted to get the ending shot in a pet food commercial, but the animal would not stand still, you would put the kitty in a bucket, windmill it round your head a couple of times, then place the kitty next to the can and voila, you were ready for the package shot. (Which I can assure you I never used personally).
I wonder what technique was used to make Mr Doak stay still for the PR shot?
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Looks pretty interesting from here - remote, but interesting
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a116/cbmacfan/streamsong.jpg)
Thanks for sharing, John. I can probably take a stab at overlaying these two pics tonight, but for now here is the layout pic from page 3 of this thread side-by-side with John's aerial.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/679c84a6.jpg?t=1290106928)
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Matty G posted a story with some pics of Streamsong, including one of Tom D standing in front of a water hazard.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2011/04/update-and-images-streamsong-r.html
It looks like Keith Rhebb's photostream has been updated with recent pics as well.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/
I love the comment about Tom Doak's allergy to marketing the product.
Seeing him placed on the property for that photo reminds me of the old advertising trick where if you wanted to get the ending shot in a pet food commercial, but the animal would not stand still, you would put the kitty in a bucket, windmill it round your head a couple of times, then place the kitty next to the can and voila, you were ready for the package shot. (Which I can assure you I never used personally).
I wonder what technique was used to make Mr Doak stay still for the PR shot?
Anthony:
Loved your story about the kitties ... I will share that with my wife.
I wasn't standing still for the PR shot. I believe it was taken while I was touring a dozen writers around the site during the PGA Show, and I am waiting for them to get situated so I could start describing what we were up to. However, that's probably all they had to work with, because I do NOT like having my picture taken and don't sit still well.
Jim:
I am headed back there next week and will try to get some pictures to share. Irrigation is in on 3-4 holes now and they expect to start grassing the first of May. We have 18 holes shaped and ready for irrigation; I think Bill's crew has 15 or 16 holes shaped, but aren't ready to release that many of them for irrigation yet.
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This is awesome. Anything beats a phosphate mine down there.
It looks like it is off the Lake Wales Ridge proper, whose western boundary in this area is the string of lakes to the east of the development. (Here's an old thread on the Ridge: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,28247.0.html)
I don't know if the Bone Valley extends quite that far but no matter that site is the central phosphate district.
Someone asked about a big mound off in the distance of one of the pics -- I think that may be a gypsum pile.
Tom, have you read "Oranges" by John McPhee? You might find it interesting given he tells some of the history down in that area.
Best of luck!
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Nice article from Golf Course Architecture magazie on the development and design of the Streamsong courses.
http://www.streamsongresort.com/images/stories/streamsong/press/gca-onsite.pdf
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Tom -
Are you using ultra dwarfs on the greens?
Bob
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The article mentions that the C&C course will have a Biarritz. Have C&C built many other templates, and if so, how have they turned out?
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The C&C Biarritz plays parallel to the already famous 7th on the Doak Course (to the left of the tee) and it might be number 14 or 15 for that course. It will only be a biarritz green, not bunkering. The Swale is HUGE from what I remember. It must be 6-8 ft. deep or more. The tee shot will be played over water. The green has a big, steep dune on the right edge (no where to miss) covered in native high grasses. The left falls off quite a bit, but it will definitely be the better place to miss. Based on the wind, it could be a very tough hole. I am also pretty sure the yardage will be up near 200 as well.
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Ultra dwarfs? Are those 21st Century Oompa Loompas or do I have my terminology confuzzled?
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27*40'44.22"N 81*56'10.95"W - Google Earth shows progress as of December 2010
This takes me to 10th Ave, Caloocan, Phililpines. What am I doing wrong?
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TD quote from the new Golf Course Architecture:
“I'm no longer talking about the potential of the course to be excellent – I’m talking about what the finished product is going to be, and I'm more excited about that than ever,”
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Just reading about this project for the first time. Any projected opening date yet? It would be cool if the company takes a page from Bandon and does an opening day event.
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I am in love.
I'll be able to leave Nashvegas after work, catch a plane and play 36 the next day. Can't wait.
Bogey
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As I mentioned on a different thread, the opening date now depends on the completion schedule for the clubhouse. The building is so much in the center of things that it would be very hard for them to open the doors out of a temporary structure ... the clubhouse would get too much in the way, considering that carts have to drive through it to get from the eighteenth green of the Red course to the first tee of either course.
Tentatively, the opening will be sometime in November, 2012, but there is no date yet, and delays are possible. The golf courses will be 100% ready when the clubhouse is ... there are 4-5 more holes to plant on the Red course, but all 18 holes on the Blue are planted, and in fact I've already played them a couple of times.
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As I mentioned on a different thread, the opening date now depends on the completion schedule for the clubhouse. The building is so much in the center of things that it would be very hard for them to open the doors out of a temporary structure ... the clubhouse would get too much in the way, considering that carts have to drive through it to get from the eighteenth green of the Red course to the first tee of either course.
Tentatively, the opening will be sometime in November, 2012, but there is no date yet, and delays are possible. The golf courses will be 100% ready when the clubhouse is ... there are 4-5 more holes to plant on the Red course, but all 18 holes on the Blue are planted, and in fact I've already played them a couple of times.
Thanks for the update on the timing of the clubhouse build-out and the courses.
Here are a couple local stories from the community event that Streamsong hosted at the site this week.
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20120222/ARTICLE/120229842 (http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20120222/ARTICLE/120229842)
http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_polk/developers-unveil-progress-in-new-luxury-resort-and-golf-course-in-most-rural-part-of-polk-county (http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_polk/developers-unveil-progress-in-new-luxury-resort-and-golf-course-in-most-rural-part-of-polk-county)
The clip from the ABC Tampa station includes visuals and a model of the new "luxury resort." It certainly appears that no detail will be spared (e.g., sink stoppers).
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Tom -
Are you using ultra dwarfs on the greens?
Bob
Bob, somewhere I think I saw MiniVerde greens and everything else 419.
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The article mentions that the C&C course will have a Biarritz. Have C&C built many other templates, and if so, how have they turned out?
C&C built a great biarritz at Bandon Trails. It's the 5th hole. Bill Coore told me it's basically how they found it, they just cleaned it up and planted it.
(http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/images/Bandon-Trails-5th.jpg)
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New stunning Streamsong photos from Keith Rhebb. Check out the folders on the right.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/keithrhebb/)
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What is the landscape budget?
The par 3 looks awesome.
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Landscape budget? We have just transplanted a few bushes around here and there.
Or do you mean the maintenance budget in the "native" areas? I'm not sure Rusty knows the answer to that question yet.
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Greg,
Agree that the par 3 look fantastic. Guess that's their signature hole... ;D
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Landscape budget? We have just transplanted a few bushes around here and there.
Or do you mean the maintenance budget in the "native" areas? I'm not sure Rusty knows the answer to that question yet.
So the landscape will be wide open sand as shown in some of the photos?
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Wow! :o
Looks awesome!
Some of those shots look like the newly remodeled Pinehurst #2. Very cool.
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Landscape budget? We have just transplanted a few bushes around here and there.
Or do you mean the maintenance budget in the "native" areas? I'm not sure Rusty knows the answer to that question yet.
So the landscape will be wide open sand as shown in some of the photos?
Greg:
There will be a lot of sand showing, but there are also various native grasses [and invasive species!] which have grown over a large portion of the area between holes. We'll keep as much of that stuff as we can, but where it eats too many golf balls, they will be scraping it up [or using Roundup] on a regular basis.
The golf couse covers a lot of ground -- there are only a couple of places where it's even remotely possible to hit it onto another hole by accident, and the fairways are very generous for the most part. I'd guess a good player won't see the open sand too often, and the average players will be glad it's there. Hopefully the visitors won't demand that it's all polished to perfection.
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Weren't architects saying 20 years ago that there were hardly any good sites (and no links sites) left? All I see is Tom Doak getting one breath-taking site after another!
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There will be a lot of sand showing, but there are also various native grasses [and invasive species!] which have grown over a large portion of the area between holes. We'll keep as much of that stuff as we can, but where it eats too many golf balls, they will be scraping it up [or using Roundup] on a regular basis.
Does any of the sand play as a waste area?
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This looks an awesome project, and I look forward to a trip to Florida in the next couple of years.
What the heck though, are those strange landforms to the east of the property seen on Google Earth?
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg157/dantovey/Streamsong.jpg)
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Landscape budget? We have just transplanted a few bushes around here and there.
Or do you mean the maintenance budget in the "native" areas? I'm not sure Rusty knows the answer to that question yet.
So the landscape will be wide open sand as shown in some of the photos?
Greg:
There will be a lot of sand showing, but there are also various native grasses [and invasive species!] which have grown over a large portion of the area between holes. We'll keep as much of that stuff as we can, but where it eats too many golf balls, they will be scraping it up [or using Roundup] on a regular basis.
The golf couse covers a lot of ground -- there are only a couple of places where it's even remotely possible to hit it onto another hole by accident, and the fairways are very generous for the most part. I'd guess a good player won't see the open sand too often, and the average players will be glad it's there. Hopefully the visitors won't demand that it's all polished to perfection.
Is it a little bit of "we'll have to wait and see what grows up with the overspray and decide what to keep and what to 'manage'" type of thing? As i recall the early photos of tyour cool little par 3 was barrne sand and now the photos show some pretty wild vegetation and landscape surrounding the green. I assume that did not just happen.
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This looks an awesome project, and I look forward to a trip to Florida in the next couple of years.
What the heck though, are those strange landforms to the east of the property seen on Google Earth?
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg157/dantovey/Streamsong.jpg)
Duncan, that area with the long parallel ponds to the east of Streamsong was mined for phosphate as well. Here is an aerial picture of a similar former phosphate mine.
(http://filebox.vt.edu/users/bross/Phosphate%20Mining.jpg)
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Brian:
That stuff in the foreground is exactly like one of the "other" sites that Bill and I were offered on which to build the second golf course originally. That's why we worked so hard to fit 36 holes onto the site we had! I don't know the full story behind the "sand piles" site that we chose, but the sand was piled much higher and deeper there than what is normally left over in the mining process ... it was some sort of staging area or something I think.
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Is it a little bit of "we'll have to wait and see what grows up with the overspray and decide what to keep and what to 'manage'" type of thing? As i recall the early photos of tyour cool little par 3 was barrne sand and now the photos show some pretty wild vegetation and landscape surrounding the green. I assume that did not just happen.
Greg:
A little bit, although in most places there was something already growing, we've just got to see whether it turns into a jungle or not. It's a lot thicker in the summer than in winter, that could be the difference in the two photos you saw.