Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jim_Kennedy on September 28, 2010, 11:45:05 PM

Title: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on September 28, 2010, 11:45:05 PM
Here are a few photos of a public course in the Catskills, Stamford GC to be exact, in the small town of the same name. I've always wondered who may have been the architect and JNC's thread on the-other-Rayner-at-Leatherstocking got me wondering if Len made it out here. No one at the club seems to know, so as yet it belongs in the portfolio of my all-time favorite architect,  Unknown.  ;D

This is the first, a 240 yard par 3 with a green that is lower at the back. The drop is 40', maybe 50'.  Tough start. The third hole is about the same yardage and par with a green that also tilts toward the back, but the drop shot is only 15' or so.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4133/5034605625_246afe6113_z.jpg)

Here's a shot at the 12th, a 'mini-ritz' green. The photo doesn't do it justice but the swale is very prominent from the fairway, that photo was erased, sorry. This green sits at the end of a downhill 435 yard par 4.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5034640515_58bb37fb1a_z.jpg)

The swale, seen from the right side. There is a huge bunker on the right side of the green, but it has grass in it.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5034640517_71b2207727_z.jpg)

Looking back up the fairway:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5034653775_e1cf29a1bf_z.jpg)

I really get a kick out of the 16th, a 285 yard par 4.  From the tee:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4152/5034640521_6cc8147085_z.jpg)

in the fairway:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/5034731845_d66f9eda85_z.jpg)

short right:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4131/5034640533_58bb37fb1a_z.jpg)

from the left:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5034640531_46d42b1cc1_z.jpg)

from the road as we were driving up to the course:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5034640535_cfd34073aa_z.jpg)

This is the 17th green, another 245 yard par 3. The 3's beat you up at Stamford.  ;D
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4147/5034653761_90a6b5a88a_z.jpg)

and finally, the uphill par 4 18th, as viewed from the clubhouse:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/5034653765_362a4d97d5_z.jpg)

All in all, a fun place to play and one that will accommodate most folks.    
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: JNC Lyon on September 28, 2010, 11:58:12 PM
Cool photos.  Let's see, a fallaway green at the 1st, and two wild greens on the closing holes.  That 16th green alone looks worth a trip.  Any other highlights out there?  I checked out the course on Google Maps, and it looks like the course is very burnt out--I'm guessing no irrigation?

Let's see, the course is under 2 hours from Colgate...day trip?

I wonder if Len Rayner designed this one, maybe Fulton History will yield some info.  Woodstock Country Club is another one I would like to check out.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on September 29, 2010, 12:23:16 AM
JNC,
There are some fun contours at the 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th.

Very little irrigation, it usually plays firm. There's one or two fairway bunkers, but the terrain makes up for that.

The green at the par 5 10th:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/5034833787_c9bfbcc2c5_z.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4105/5034653771_60b88401d3_z.jpg)

Looking from the first tee to the 18th green. The grade that cart is sitting on is 15%.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4086/5034822557_0d632272f4_z.jpg)

It's just under 90 miles from me, but I get out there several times a season. I go for the quiet and the fun.

I've only been to Woodstock a handful of times, but it's also a very peaceful, uncrowded place to play.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: JNC Lyon on September 29, 2010, 12:27:56 AM
Another course you listed in your Leatherstocking thread, Sullivan County in Liberty, is definitely Rayner as well.  I just found another newspaper article confirming it.  This course appears to be existence as well--I stopped less than a mile from the course to get gas on the way to Hackensack on Sunday.  May be worth a trip.

Stamford looks fun, I want see if I can confirm Rayner's involvement.  The guy was clearly a big name in Central New York golf, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was responsible for Stamford.

John
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: JNC Lyon on September 29, 2010, 12:44:18 AM
Still no good evidence on Stamford's architect.  It seems that the course has been there in some form since 1899.  However, one article did speak of improvements to the golf course in 1930--right in Rayner's heyday.  The mystery remains unsolved.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: Jon Wiggett on September 29, 2010, 02:16:55 AM
Hi Jim,

this looks like a really fun to play course. It also seems to use bunkers sparingly, relying more on the the green contours to create the interest of play. If you or any one else have more photos, please post.

Jon
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on September 29, 2010, 09:28:42 AM
JNC,
The SGC was originally located at the Rexmere Hotel, which is located closer to town, and is now used by BOCES as an educational center.
It was built by Dr. Stephen Churchill, and the area is/was known as Churchill Park. There was a 9 hole course on the grounds and they once had Willie Dunn up for a season to make some improvements. It may have been known as Usayantha Golf Club at the time.
 SGC moved to it's present location sometime after that, or so it appears. There is a small photo from 1917 showing a clubhouse and I was told that was located at the 'new' course.

The Rexmere:
(http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/25943720.jpg)
(http://www.catskillrealestate.us/catskillqueen/2305trippg/thumbnails/s18.jpg)

Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: Tom MacWood on September 29, 2010, 10:34:50 PM
Those are some crazy greens. What was Rayner's background?
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: JNC Lyon on September 29, 2010, 10:40:06 PM
Tom,

Check out my posted article in the Leatherstocking thread.  It has all of the background info on Rayner.  It sounds like he was a class act.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: PCCraig on September 30, 2010, 09:20:20 AM
Those look like some fun greens!!! :)
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: Mark McKeever on September 30, 2010, 10:29:34 AM
Those greens look very interesting.  17 almost looks like a double plateau?

Mark
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on September 30, 2010, 01:17:30 PM
The greens really make for a fun game at SGC. There are a few flattish putting surfaces, like the small 2nd and 11th, but these two are small, under 3,000 sq ft. The largest green, #5, is around 8,500 sq ft and is also relatively flat.
The other greens that I would call placid are at least tilted away from, or to the side of, the line of play, but you'll still need to blend speed/line/force if your shot does not land on the low/high axis on any of these greens.

17 does resemble a double plateau.There are greens here that also have a 'familiar' feel to them, leading me to think that whoever built the course had a reasonably good knowledge of GCA.

Edit: Here's a photo of #5. Hopefully the small plateau at the back shows up. Even though this green is large and 'flat' it  will reject a shot hit to the left side.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5039649002_f8bde8bd1d_z.jpg)
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on October 01, 2010, 11:05:40 AM
A final note about this club. 

Green fees for the shoulder seasons (prior to May 15th and after Sept. 22nd) are $15.00 to walk eighteen. They're $21.00 during the high season.

Membership is under $1,400 for a family and under $900.00 for a single.


 
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country (with help from Travis)
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on October 02, 2010, 02:17:34 PM
I've been searching for some more info about Len Rayner and/or Stamford Country Club and came across the articles I've linked below. It appears that in all three of them credit for the course, or the rebuilding and rearranging of an earlier course, fell on the capable shoulders of one Walter J. Travis.  (sorry Len  :'( )

This is pretty cool info as the club has (had!  ;D ) no idea of who built their course. It'll be fun to let them know. Hope they don't raise their rates.  :o  

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2010/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201924%20Grayscale/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201924%20Grayscale%20-%200113.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=200abcb8&DocId=1613026&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=2&hits=679+67a+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2010/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201928%20Grayscale/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201928%20Grayscale%20-%200356.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=20f6e304&DocId=1615738&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=2&hits=94c+94d+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%205/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle%201925%20Grayscale/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle%201925%20Grayscale%20-%203931.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=ffffffffc7aa1a75&DocId=13242389&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=3&hits=b5+b6+b7+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf


 
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Tim Gavrich on October 02, 2010, 02:58:15 PM
It reminds me a lot of Copake CC, but apparently even quirkier in places, judging by the photos.  Do they ever put the pin on that high left-rear shelf on that 16th hole?  Because they should, every so often at least.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: JNC Lyon on October 02, 2010, 03:38:06 PM
Jim,

In short, WOW!  That Travis discovery is phenomenal.  I hope to get over there soon.  The fact that Walter Travis did work here (I think that 16th green is classic Travis) does not rule out the possibility of Rayner's involvement.  Though if Rayner had been involved, it probably would have been mentioned in one of those articles.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on October 02, 2010, 07:27:23 PM
JNC,
I haven't found anything mentioning Rayner in conjunction w/Stamford.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Mike Sweeney on October 02, 2010, 09:03:37 PM
Jim,

It is a little unclear, did Travis do 9 or 18?

Do you have a website for the current Churchill BOCES? It did not popup on Google.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on October 02, 2010, 09:13:20 PM
Mike,
I'd have to re-read the articles, but I think he did 18. There are, however, a few holes on the course that do not 'feel' the same as the rest of them.

The website you requested:

 http://www.oncboces.org/CyrCenter.cfm?subpage=14236
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Mike Sweeney on October 02, 2010, 09:28:50 PM
It is amazing some of the grand hotels and courses that were built upstate in the 1920's. That does not seem like it was ever easy to get to Stamford NY from NYC. While the current club website says 1897, it looks like the real course was built in the 1920's and obviously it never caught on with the city crowd.

Maybe next season we can make a little trip but I still need to play Travis' CC of Troy.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on October 02, 2010, 10:01:22 PM
Mike,
There was train service into the Catskills in those days, The trip to Stamford was 5 hours. There are quite a few articles of 'society' news about the place that I haven't bothered to post.  Helen Gould Shepard (railroad magnate Jay Gould's daughter) built an estate course called Shephard Hills that's about 15 miles away in Roxbury.

http://www.shephardhills.com/history.htm

Very funky little course. It has a par 4 w/a three tiered fairway as an opening hole, a par three with a V-shaped green, a beautiful downhill par 4 w/a green that's cut into the side of a hill, a couple of other pretty good holes, and it's exceptionally quiet when you get back on the property. Nice place for an emergency nine.  :)  
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on October 04, 2010, 04:41:42 PM
It reminds me a lot of Copake CC, but apparently even quirkier in places, judging by the photos.  Do they ever put the pin on that high left-rear shelf on that 16th hole?  Because they should, every so often at least.

Sorry Tim, I missed your reply.  :-[

I've never seen the pin on the shelf, although we never fail to try putting balls up it, and we usually try to make a few bank shots off it to the existing pin.  ;D

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5034640535_cfd34073aa_z.jpg)
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: JNC Lyon on October 04, 2010, 05:43:12 PM
It reminds me a lot of Copake CC, but apparently even quirkier in places, judging by the photos.  Do they ever put the pin on that high left-rear shelf on that 16th hole?  Because they should, every so often at least.

Sorry Tim, I missed your reply.  :-[

I've never seen the pin on the shelf, although we never fail to try putting balls up it, and we usually try to make a few bank shots off it to the existing pin.  ;D

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5034640535_cfd34073aa_z.jpg)

Jim, I made a little drive to Stamford yesterday.  Though I didn't play there (I checked out the old nine at Shepherd Hills--very quirky), I did drive by the course.  They had the pin on the top shelf on 16, for "Impossible Pin Day," I believe.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on October 04, 2010, 06:01:24 PM
JNC,
Perhaps we can get out there before the season ends.

The 16th green is about 4,500 sq ft and the old bunker footprints are about that same sq footage.  The tenth, the par 5, is the same. Large bunker footprints, very little sand.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: JNC Lyon on October 04, 2010, 06:13:02 PM
JNC,
Perhaps we can get out there before the season ends.

The 16th green is about 4,500 sq ft and the old bunker footprints are about that same sq footage.  The tenth, the par 5, is the same. Large bunker footprints, very little sand.

Absolutely, I'd love to get out there at some point.  Since the course has minimal bunkers now, I think it would be interesting to find out how much the course has changed from when Travis, usually as bunker happy as they came, originally laid it out.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Ed Homsey on October 07, 2010, 01:30:23 PM
This thread was brought to my attention by a Travis Society member.  It is exciting news for those of us involved in the Walter J. Travis Society when the possibility of a previously unknown Travis golf course project pops up.  I was sent a link to the Fulton History articles that mention Travis in connection with the Stamford Country Club (now referred to as Stamford Golf Club).  One of those articles,from the Stamford Mirror, dated July 12, 1928,states, "In blocking out the original golf course, Walter J. Travis, the well-known golf architect, depended a great---".It continues on page four, which is missing from my copy.  Does anyone out there have that "page four"?  I tried searching the Fulton History site, but it doesn't have the July 1928 issue available for searching.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on October 07, 2010, 02:15:54 PM
Ed,
Yes, here it is, although it doesn't pack as great a punch as one might hope.  ;D  

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2010/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201928%20Grayscale/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201928%20Grayscale%20-%200361.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=20f6e304&DocId=1615738&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=2&hits=94c+94d+&SearchForm=C%3a\inetpub\wwwroot\Fulton_New_form.html&.pdf

When I found these articles I too couldn't find page 4, but I emailed Tom Trysninski and here was the reply:

Q. How can I bring up the next page of the newspaper I am viewing or get to a page that that a Story is continued on or how to put the whole newspaper in page number order?
 A. Solution....Redo the search by inputting the original newspapers name but changing the numeral digit by 1 to see the next page on that issue. Example - Newspaper Oswego Valley News 1962 1005.pdf change to Newspaper Oswego Valley News 1962 1006.pdf


I hope you can find out more.
Jim

p.s here are a few more, none mentioning Travis, but a bit about the original course and the clubhouse

Brooklyn Daily Eagle July 26th 1897Ė
 about establishing new golf course in N. Stamford

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%207/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle%201897%20Grayscale/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle%201897%20Grayscale%20-%203673.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=4a5519cb&DocId=4409273&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=3&hits=87f+880+881+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

THE KINGSTON DAILY FREEMAN- SATURDAY EVENING, JAN 13, 1917
The Stamford Golf Club, supported
by wealthy New York members, ls expending
3O.OOO in the erection of a
new club house and in the purchase
of more land.

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2010/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201931%20Grayscale/Stamford%20NY%20Stamford%20Mirror%201931%20Grayscale%20-%200025.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=70e4a74b&DocId=1616969&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=3&hits=54a+54b+54c+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

THE BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE. NEW YOBK, Sun June 11
. Notable among them will be t he opening and dedication of the new" $30,000 clubhouse of the Stamford. Golf Club. This will tak eplace in conjunction with the Independence Day celebration.

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%205/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle%201922%20Grayscale/Brooklyn%20NY%20Daily%20Eagle%201922%20a%20Grayscale%20-%205406.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=ffffffffc64b7985&DocId=13203009&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=3&hits=12cb+12cc+12cd+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf


p.p.s. I asked about this course a couple of years ago but no one seemed to have any info. Off this site I asked people at the club and the Stamford Historical Society, but to no avail.  When the source (Joe Bausch's find) was made available I started hunting as I always felt this course had greens that were done by someone who had a very good idea of what they were doing, and that's been proven.  ;D     
  
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Ed Homsey on October 07, 2010, 07:00:46 PM
Thanks for that info, Jim.  Will try to follow your suggestion regarding finding another page of the Stamford Mirror on Fulton History.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on October 07, 2010, 07:06:44 PM
ED,
I don't know if you missed it, but the first link I posted was of page 4, the one you requested.

Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Ed Homsey on October 09, 2010, 07:03:59 AM
You're right.  I missed it, but just found it.  And, as you say, it lacks the punch it seemed to promise on page one!!  Have you talked with anyone at Stamford about your findings?
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Mike Sweeney on July 27, 2017, 09:08:22 PM
Played it today, finally. It is a big effort to get there :)


After 3 holes, I was thinking, "Kennedy and Chalfont are nuts":


(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57408b97f85082130768fb62/597a8a18e6f2e12643378d29/597a8a19579fb3cca0b10d48/1501202979556/IMG_0574.JPG?format=800w)

And then you see this:
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57408b97f85082130768fb62/597a8a18e6f2e12643378d29/597a8a2c579fb3cca0b10e55/1501203003366/IMG_0589.JPG?format=800w)

and this:
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57408b97f85082130768fb62/597a8a18e6f2e12643378d29/597a8a342e69cffcde87a530/1501203002934/IMG_0590.JPG?format=800w)

Complete insanity, the hodgepodge nature of the course! But I loved it  :D
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 28, 2017, 02:26:17 PM
Wow ... Travis built a bunch of pretty severe greens, but that has to be one of the steepest tiers I've seen.


Was the green not six or eight feet bigger to the left when built?  Seems like it would have needed to be a bit bigger if it was intended for a hole location.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on July 28, 2017, 06:18:57 PM

Tom,
There is room on top for more green surface, a few paces at least.


photo will go big w/a click.

  (https://scontent.fijd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/20248501_1201790709926652_6844562210781239130_o.jpg?oh=54818e3795da3d64c1e950e401e47e2b&oe=59F998D2)
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on July 28, 2017, 06:31:08 PM
Another view
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4295/36095121141_ca2a20bcf8_c.jpg)
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Mike Sweeney on July 28, 2017, 07:10:43 PM
Fabulous pics James. That green makes Cape Arundel look tame :)



Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on July 28, 2017, 10:15:53 PM
My photographer friend Peter Barrett took them. We went around together and I asked for shots from particular angles, and he delivered quite nicely.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Ed Homsey on July 29, 2017, 01:42:59 PM
Jim--Still hoping we can work out a rendezvous at Stamford with Travis Society member who grew up on the course, and though living in Buffalo, still maintains his membership there.  He has done considerable research on the history of the course.  He has info about changes to the course in the '30s, etc that is interesting.  I am still doubtful about the 16th green being a Travis creation, though the chocolate drops in the fairway are classic examples of hazards he used in the '20s.  The 12th appears to be a great example of one of his swale greens.  Lots to sort out.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: MCirba on July 29, 2017, 10:51:57 PM
This is cool.  Thanks.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Mike Sweeney on July 30, 2017, 06:04:03 AM
  I am still doubtful about the 16th green being a Travis creation, though the chocolate drops in the fairway are classic examples of hazards he used in the '20s.  Lots to sort out.


Ed,


I just thought of this comparison -


17th at Cape Arundel:


(http://golfclubatlas.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/CA17bg.jpg)


16th at Stamford:


(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4295/36095121141_ca2a20bcf8_c.jpg)


Not sure I have even seen any greens like this in the USA. On the surface, it seems like the same person created them. Stamford is confusing for sure, so just offering up a theory.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on July 30, 2017, 07:43:48 AM

You play here on occasion.  ;)

(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/Hotchkiss%20School%20Golf%20Course/P1070757_zpsxaxirgb7.jpg)
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Ed Homsey on July 30, 2017, 12:22:56 PM
Mike--I always thought of Arundel's 17th as a swale green, but my memory may be failing me.  The closest I can come to a Travis green that is comparable to Stamford's 16th is #11 at Arundel.


I'm awaiting word on the hole that Jim just posted.  Intriquingly similar to Stamford's 16th.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Bret Lawrence on July 30, 2017, 12:48:00 PM
Ed,


Jim's photograph is the Eden Hole at Hotchkiss or the 8th hole.  Southamptons 10th or Eden green also had a large hump in the rear left quadrant.  I believe they have recently modified the green at Southampton eliminating the hump to allow for more pin placements.


Bret
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on July 30, 2017, 03:49:38 PM
Ed,

I 'borrowed' that photo of our 8th hole from Bret.

As you know, the 16th is the first hole you see when visiting SGC, so I felt right at home from the get-go. :)
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Mike Worth on May 24, 2022, 10:44:18 PM
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/195712183@N04/52096376657/in/album-72177720299227717/)(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52096376657_cfa218c1ed_o_d.jpg)


Side view of #5 at Shephard Hills, Roxbury NY -- this is the old Finley Shepard 9 hole estate course.  Learning how to post photos, so sorry to drag up an old thread.  #5 is a 200 yd downhill par 3


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52097656194_d0a8c36fa3_c_d.jpg)


And a view from the front
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: MCirba on May 25, 2022, 06:29:49 AM
Mike Worth,


Intriguing.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Jim_Kennedy on May 27, 2022, 02:44:12 PM
Mike W.


Some wild putts on that 5th hole. ;D


A hole that I really enjoy at SH  is number 8. I like the way that the downhill fairway keeps falling away from the approach area for the putting green, both of which are benched into the hillside.



Lot of fun to be had up there.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Mike Worth on May 27, 2022, 04:06:51 PM
Mike W.


Some wild putts on that 5th hole. ;D


A hole that I really enjoy at SH is number 8. I really like the way that the downhill fairway keeps falling away from the approach area for the putting green, both of which are benched into the hillside.



Lot of fun to be had up there.


Hi Jim. I learned how to post photographs a couple of days ago so Iím going to be putting more SH photographs here I have some pretty good ones of #8


I think I mentioned that SH was one of the courses we played in high school tournaments. The others being Stamford, Windham, Margaretville (was Hidden Waters but is now the Hannah Resort) and Colonial in Tannersville (my home course).


SH #8 always beat me up. You really have to hit the ball in front of the green and let it bounce in. If you try to go for the pin you will go over or to the side and usually the grass was not cut on that hill which resulted in a lost ball.


The odd truth about #5 green is that itís not hard to putt. Itís actually easy. For starters, that front position is not pinnable. That means the pin is always in the back of the green as seen in the 2 pictures.

The reason those photos are different colors is the one from the side was taken in July 2020 and I took the one from the front when I played there two weeks ago. My last round before 2020 was June 1981 - the HS league championship was there.

So when I played in July 2020 I missed the green to the left and I quizzically looked at how to play the ball. And then I suddenly remembered from my round 39 years earlier that all you have to do is get the ball on the green ó  literally every chip runs to the hole ó it doesnít matter where you hit it (within reason).  And when I say it rolls to the hole it goes to within 2 feet every time so itís a tap in par.


I wish I could describe the feeling of joy I had when I remembered how to play a shot from 39 years ago. Itís not something that I do very often (remember that far back) but that shot on #5 was very distinctive the way it rolls around in that potato chip and snuggles next to the cup
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Mike Worth on May 28, 2022, 04:30:24 PM
For Jim Kennedy and any whom this might interest


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52096393942_cc8940fe07_c_d.jpg)


SH #8 -- 335 par 4.  Drive.  As Jim notes, can't go left, optimal drive is 220 right center.  If this doesnít look like a 335 yard hole, itís because I stood in front of the tee and increased the magnification

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52097429538_a263c79bf5.jpg)
Close up of the green complex.  Two fairly precise shots required and no fairway bunker to force you to be that precise.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52097921590_1c7d6f340a.jpg)

Close up of #8 green

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52097429878_9f3b58237f.jpg)


#1 -- 327 uphill par 4.  Three distinct tiers sculpted into the mountain.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52096393927_3474a3f128_z.jpg)


#7 - 553 yd Par 5 --  this is the drive.  The hole is about 175 yds beyond thd top of the 2nd hill. The mountain shown here is not the same mountain as #1
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/195712183@N04/52097429538/in/album-72177720299227717/)
(https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/B9C3880F-71B2-402B-AA8B-F16FFD0ACF65)
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Mike Worth on May 28, 2022, 04:57:40 PM
More Shephard Hills (SH)


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52099286879_3391bf16ec_w.jpg)


Today's routing.  You'll see from the next picture how the course used to start on present day #4.  This makes sense as the routing is contiguous if you start on #4.  As it stands today, it's 1/4 mile walk from #3 green to #4 tee -- uphill. 


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52099075728_207b932e0e_w.jpg)


This scorecard is from 1925 when it was still Finley Shepard's estate course.  The few folks I've shared this with have the same comment -- cool hole names


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52104764372_84a7e1c63f.jpg)


Looking from present day #4 green back up the fairway.  And then checkout the name of the hole in 1925 -- it was #1 back then -- Elephant's Back


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52096394012_e5079544a9.jpg)


#9- 445 Par 4 -- the drive


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52097921645_d691d69825.jpg)


#9 approach


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52097418516_7061db89fe.jpg)


#6, par 3.  Yardage is not marked anywhere, I suppose it's 115 yards
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: MCirba on May 28, 2022, 06:28:25 PM
I need to get up there.


Thanks, Mike Worth.
Title: Re: In Len Rayner Country w/ help from Travis
Post by: Mike Worth on May 28, 2022, 06:53:14 PM
I need to get up there.


Thanks, Mike Worth.


If you plan on walking the course, make sure you bring portable oxygen and blood thinners.  My step counter credited me with 39 flights of stairs when I played  2 weeks ago; it was 42 flights of stairs for the round I played in July 2020.


I feel that walk nearly killed me, twice, but perhaps Iím a better person for having done it