Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jonathan Cummings on September 11, 2010, 05:34:52 AM
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The 4th at Sand Hills?
Forget the DAH how about the bunker around PVGC's 8th green.
Pick any thousand at Whistling Staits...
What do you think?
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Maybe the Church Pews? Lots of little banks you can be right up against.
Great thread, although some will say we don't need to get down to ranking bunkers individually! I say why not.
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The Jaws bunker to the right side of Pacific Dunes 18? Not the front part of that bunker where you can hit a recovery shot. I'm talking about the middle portion where both the front lip and back lip might swallow your club whole as you attempt a swing.
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11 at Tobacco Road
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/TobaccoRoad11.jpg)
17 at Longshadow
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Longshadow17.jpg)
These are both bunkers you want to avoid at all costs.
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I nominate the bunker running along the right side of the fairway up into the green on hole #5 - Shipwreck @ Boston Golf Club. If you're in the fairway waste bunker right, a blind, uphill shot from hell to the tiniest green awaits you. If you're in the extremely narrow greenside bunker, there's barely enough room to get the club up and down on your sand shot. If not hit perfectly, it results in a bladed sand shot or a second attempt at your original sand shot. BTW, the hole only plays 317 yards.
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The 4th hole's greenside bunker at The Bear's Club caused me some issues... :-[
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The 4th hole's greenside bunker at The Bear's Club caused me some issues... :-[
Both of them. :( Not to mention that the green slightly resembles the hood of a Volkswagon Beetle.
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No bunker has been as fierce on a pocketbook as That swath of sand on the 18th hole at Whistling Straits.
The bunker on the 6th hole on the straits course or 10th at pine valley are up there for me.
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Mac,
I am religious about my golf but this thread was surely not intended as a confessional box!
Ach, yes from my experience (not American) one can easily make a spectacle of oneself in #14 at Carnoustie, The Spectacles.
Colin
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:)
Colin...my apologies for airing my grievances and past sins at The Bear's Club. But I noticed Ron was online and he witnessed my disaster on that hole. So, I wanted to get that out there for him to see. And in fact, I still haven't put the ball in the hole at the 4th at The Bear's Club.
More with spirit of the thread...
13 at Harbour Town is an interesting bunker/green combination.
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/HarbourTown13II.jpg)
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It is not the hardest individual bunker, but the most daunting recovery shot at Pacific Dunes is from the first left-hand fairway bunker on #18. It's a reasonably deep and narrow bunker in and of itself, but the daunting part is that the only two options are to wuss out, or to try to carry about 175 yards over the big sandy waste and the ridge on the left with your next shot.
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The bunker guarding the front of the second green at Ballyhack gets my vote.
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Front right bunker, 14th at Bethpage Black, to a frontside pin position. Impossible.
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While I'm not a big fan of the course, the 11th hole on the Irish Course at Whistling Straits has a bunker left of the green which is quite unique. It's set into the base of a huge mountain of sand with a very small opening facing the tees and then a 7 foot high wall that wraps from the front opening around the back of the bunker and into the sand dune.
I didn't try a shot out of the bunker but did walk into it. I felt like I was in a closet. Think of a long and narrow pot bunker you don't walk down to get into. I've never witnessed a bunker like this anywhere.
Ken
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How has the San Andreas fault bunker at PGA West not been named? A 20ft foot deep greenside bunker up a sheer face.
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Until someone gets into every single one, how can one even begin to opine?
Then there's the fact that truly great shots can only come from the worst spots. So, it's deceptive on what would be the fiercest, because the sportsman would invariably overcome the challenge, making it appear not so fierce. It's a chicken and egg thing.
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(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z235/Lee614n/this-thread-is-useless-without-pich.jpg)
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18th at Garden City: fearsome version of the Strath that will catch any mis-hit long iron.
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It is not the hardest individual bunker, but the most daunting recovery shot at Pacific Dunes is from the first left-hand fairway bunker on #18. It's a reasonably deep and narrow bunker in and of itself, but the daunting part is that the only two options are to wuss out, or to try to carry about 175 yards over the big sandy waste and the ridge on the left with your next shot.
You beat me to it. Been there, done that. Par is nearly impossible from that bunker.
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Jason,
IMO I think there are fiercer bunkers on the Black than that one on 14. For example, the front right greenside bunker on 16. There is no up and down from there, only up and up! The wonderful carry bunker off the tee on 5. But the fiercest, toughest, most daunting bunker on the Black, and one that can hold its own with any other bunker anywhere, is the monstrously large waste bunker that goes on seemingly forever in all directions, especially when played from the championship tee way back right on the 7th hole.
All that being said, I do like your choice and the way you think...
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Not the fiercest until you're laying 3, but as Richard encourages...
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs657.snc4/61703_147025162003108_100000868765354_220762_3434226_n.jpg)
Or was it this?...
(http://www.barproducts.com/media/coolpitchwithlid100.jpg)
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The pot bunker guarding the middle front of the 7th green at NGLA ("St. Andrews") is the consistently most troublesome that I've run across. It's known as "the devil's a..hole", and it has everything to do with both the 2nd and 3rd shot placement on the short par five. It is so deep that even a wide open 60 degree sand wedge sometimes won't elevate the ball enough to clear the lip. On a number of occasions I've used the little known stroke & distance option available from a bunker under the Ball Unplayable rule.
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The "devil's asshole" at PV is no cakewalk, and it has a fierce name.
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Until someone gets into every single one, how can one even begin to opine?
Then there's the fact that truly great shots can only come from the worst spots. So, it's deceptive on what would be the fiercest, because the sportsman would invariably overcome the challenge, making it appear not so fierce. It's a chicken and egg thing.
You mean like when someone has a fried egg lie AND a yucca stuck up their arse while playing the shot?! If so, then I'll nominate the one back behind 9 green at Ballyneal.
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The pot bunker guarding the middle front of the 7th green at NGLA ("St. Andrews") is the consistently most troublesome that I've run across. It's known as "the devil's a..hole", and it has everything to do with both the 2nd and 3rd shot placement on the short par five. It is so deep that even a wide open 60 degree sand wedge sometimes won't elevate the ball enough to clear the lip. On a number of occasions I've used the little known stroke & distance option available from a bunker under the Ball Unplayable rule.
I thought it was a dead ringer for the Road Hole bunker. Isn't that what it's supposed to replicate?
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Bill - You are correct. CBM modeled National's 7th after the Road Hole. The massive complex of fairway bunkers and deep fescue on the right of the landing area for the drive was his shed guarding the dogleg on the Road Hole, and the massive back greenside bunker was his road & stone fence. The pot bunker was his Road Hole bunker.
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Bill - You are correct. CBM modeled National's 7th after the Road Hole. The massive complex of fairway bunkers and deep fescue on the right of the landing area for the drive was his shed guarding the dogleg on the Road Hole, and the massive back greenside bunker was his road & stone fence. The pot bunker was his Road Hole bunker.
Thanks, I was wondering about the "DA" reference. I really wouldn't know, as that was one of the few bunkers I avoided that day! (I did manage to get down in the rear "Road" bunker; that's no treat!).
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The 4th at Sand Hills?
Fierce, in that the bunker kicked me in the shins and stole my lunch money, I'll go with 18 at Sand Hills.
(http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr7/rednorman/NEBRASKA/IMG_2155.jpg?t=1284224622)
The huge cavernous one left before the green.
After a couple of attempts to extract myself from the depths of despair, I ended up having to leave my ball half way up the slope of this sand mountain and walk in, completely out of breath and my tail between my legs. Much like my day at The Dunes in Brooksville. Bill McBride, you remember that one! :P
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I'll second the Road Hole bunker at National Golf Links of America. I have a very steep swing and tend to hit everything heavy. As a result I'm a surprisingly good greenside bunker player. While the sand was heavy that day, I couldn't exit this bunker.
I'll nominate the greenside bunker right of the first green at Chambers Bay. Very narrow with heavy sand. Easy to leave it in the bunker since anything a little strong will yield a 60 yards pitch back to the green.
Mike
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I've watched a dozen players try to get out of the front right bunker at Pine Valley - I've seen nobody accomplish that task yet without a toss.
Deep is not an issue, a v-shaped interior sure is....
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As simple as it is, the back bunker on 12 at Augusta National.
Actually a basic ;)shot, but the setting and Rae's Creek create a lot of "digging"
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I've not played it yet, but could it be Hell's Half Acre?
There's no way to avoid it by playing around it and you're likely hitting a fairway wood or hybrid off the deck to carry it... that's pretty fierce.
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It is not the hardest individual bunker, but the most daunting recovery shot at Pacific Dunes is from the first left-hand fairway bunker on #18. It's a reasonably deep and narrow bunker in and of itself, but the daunting part is that the only two options are to wuss out, or to try to carry about 175 yards over the big sandy waste and the ridge on the left with your next shot.
You beat me to it. Been there, done that. Par is nearly impossible from that bunker.
Par is nearly impossible from that tee! ;)
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It is not the hardest individual bunker, but the most daunting recovery shot at Pacific Dunes is from the first left-hand fairway bunker on #18. It's a reasonably deep and narrow bunker in and of itself, but the daunting part is that the only two options are to wuss out, or to try to carry about 175 yards over the big sandy waste and the ridge on the left with your next shot.
That was definitely not a very nice spot to hide a bunker after such a great walk :), Tom. I've played the hole once and managed to try both options.
The right green side bunker on Bandon Trails 14 isn't a gimme either.
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Speaking of Bandon - How about Bandon Dunes' 15th? (http://jeffwallach.com/files/2009/10/BandDuns15.6_6x8_72DPI-300x225.jpg)
It's 14 feet deep.
I'd also nominate those beauties behind ANGC #13. For other than expert golfers, the fear of dunking the ball in Rae's Creek would be very understandable.
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Fishers Island and Yale have some unbelievable ones...
Either front left or back bunkers on #3 at Fishers could be a possibility as well as the front left on #8 at Yale.
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Fishers3.jpg)
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I hate to sound self-serving, but the bunkers on the 3rd at Sebonack is very difficult. The one that is toughest for me however is the triple pronged bunker at the back of the 15th.
I both hate it and love it.
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I know one other post above mentioned it but this has to take the cake. There maybe smaller, tougher bunkers, but their isn't one more fierce than this that I know of in the U.S.
#16 PGA West Stadium
(http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/14746710.jpg)
(http://www.frankroh.com/images/tpcstd16wa.gif)
(http://www.brianmlew.com/images/pictures/Golf5.jpg)
(http://www.golfclevelandohio.com/golftripcourses/PGAWest-Stadium-16bunker.jpg)
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The front wall bunker at Pacific Dunes #6.
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Either front left or back bunkers on #3 at Fishers could be a possibility
Geoffrey
Good call with #3 at Fishers Island...it immediately came to my mind and here is another picture of it
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/FI/FI3.jpg)
For something a bit differerent - God help someone if they land in this one...
(http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/kpallier23/USA%20Snippits/Nowthatsabunker.jpg)
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So many nice cute little bunkers. How about something in 5 and 7 acre range?
Plus, the sand is extremely soft, and seldom raked. Saving par? You might think more about 4 strokes just to get out of the foot prints! Sometimes to enable progress around the golf course to continue, a hand wedge is the best expedient.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/ChambersBayGC/P1000616.jpg)
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Fishers Island and Yale have some unbelievable ones...
Yeah, I found it more than a bit daunting to walk down an entire flight of stairs to get to the bunkers at Yale. That was a new thing for me.
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So many nice cute little bunkers. How about something in 5 and 7 acre range?
Plus, the sand is extremely soft, and seldom raked. Saving par? You might think more about 4 strokes just to get out of the foot prints! Sometimes to enable progress around the golf course to continue, a hand wedge is the best expedient.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/ChambersBayGC/P1000616.jpg)
Is that played as a bunker!? Holy crap! How many rakes does that thing have around it? That has to be a waste area, no?
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The two toughest bunkers to get out of in my experience were actually on the same hole---PV's #10----the DAH an the upper left end of the bunker greenside left of #10---but only the way it used to be.
If I say so myself when I was playing pretty good tournament golf I was a really good bunker player, particularly with short high bunker shots. Give me a fairly normal stance and enough room to swing and I was pretty confident I could pull it off and almost always did. But I also had the equipment for it. I may've been the first one in my region that had a 60 degree wedge (PING).
And for what I would consider a few very important reasons I would also definitely divide all bunkers and recovery from them into two very distinct and different categories;
1. Greenside bunkers
2. All others that are not greenside.
I say that because what you are basically trying to do between #1 and #2 is just so different, at least to me.
But I would be happy to list about a dozen or more of the fiercest greenside bunkers I ever came across other than the two I mentioned above. Most all of them are pretty well known and the only ones I recall that really did concern me about getting out of because ironically they may've been problematic for me because I had probably become a product of my own success in greenside bunkers in that I just could not stand to NOT go at the hole!!
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Based on this week's Crump Cup, I'm going to say the fiercest bunker resides in front of the 18th green at Pine Valley. I'm not even sure which one it was, but in qualifying, two unfortunate players exited the 18th green after holing out for a 14 and an 18. :o :o
Both players hit it short into one of the bunkers with their approach shot and apparently just couldn't get the ball out. I've got to find out where they were because I've been in some of the front bunkers there and haven't had much trouble blasting out in one shot. Obviously, I must have avoided the spot they were in. One of the poor guys was only 3 over par playing the 18th and shot 87. "Only at Pine Valley." ;D
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Jamie:
That's a good point there about those bunkers in front of #18 green and I was thinking earlier about some of the toughest bunkers I've ever run across aren't just really tough because it's so hard to come out on the line to the pin but that sometimes that's about the only reasonable way to come out of them.
And I also think that kind of thing just might be something that Pine Valley has a whole lot of compared to other courses.
Even though I've never been in them in competition clearly if you can't come out of the bunker behind #8 or #15 at the green what other option do you have without making things potentially worse?
And the high left side of that bunker greenside left on #10 was basically the same way. It was so hard to come up onto the green because it was so narrow there was no room to swing well enough. I saw so many good players try it and fail continuously. For the more experienced in that particular place you just knew the smartest thing to do was to putt the ball down the bunker to the front of the green where it was so much wider and then go from there.
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Front left of the 13th green at Jeffersonville. It's DA sized and situated in such a way that any ball captured by it will face a very odd angle to any hole location on the green. Extracting one's self from the bunker is a fairly easy affair, however, it would take considerable skill and luck to have a reasonable putt once the ball has finished rolling.
Pretty well any greenside bunker that holds the ball in the most awkward position relative to the green and next shot would be my consideration for fiercest.
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I had a very tough time when I trickled the ball into the little back bunker on Old Macdonald #6, the Long hole. Took me three to get out, with the third shot well played. Small but fierce little bastard pot bunker.
Thinking about it some more, other qualifiers at the Bandon resort include a back left bunker on the Old Macdonald #7 hole, and the bunkers short and right (and way below) the 14th green at Pacific Dunes.
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Kyle,
Here goes from JB's photos:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Jeffersonville/pages/page_95.html)
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Here is one I have had some trouble on. Upper Green Bunker #9 Pac Dunes.
(http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/mhogan21/BunkerUppergreen9PacDunes.jpg)
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There used to be a bunker to the right and short of the 17th green at The Medalist which I considered the most difficult bunker I ever encountered. Primarily because of it's depth combined with its steepness.
Having played The Knoll, Forsgate, Hackensack, Essex County, Montclair and Rock Spring, I'd have to give "Steamshovel Banks" credit for building the fiercest bunkers, in general.
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I've not played it yet, but could it be Hell's Half Acre?
There's no way to avoid it by playing around it and you're likely hitting a fairway wood or hybrid off the deck to carry it... that's pretty fierce.
Scott
I think your post is in reference to the fact if one tries to go for the green in two ? I would have thought most would lay-up short of the peninsula green with their seconds. There's a lot of sand in there but it's only around a 100m carry or so. For mine there's plenty of others at PVGC that will test one's nerve - particularly off the tee.
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Scott
I think your post is in reference to the fact if one tries to go for the green in two ? I would have thought most would lay-up short of the peninsula green with their seconds. There's a lot of sand in there but it's only around a 100m carry or so. For mine there's plenty of others at PVGC that will test one's nerve - particularly off the tee.
No, I'm talking about the second shot.
From Ran's review: 7th hole, 580 yards; Relatively speaking, this hole occupies the flatest stretch of property on the course, so to give the hole life, Crump left what would become probably thecourse’s single most famous hazard – Hell’s Half Acre, which bisects the fairway from the 285 to the 380 yard mark...
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I have no idea of the fiercest bunker, but in addition to being deep and steep, the bunker must be front and centre, one that the golfer must take on every time he plays. I would also say that there must be little alternative other than to to be forced to take on the full brunt of the bunker; meaning there isn't an easier out playing away from the hole. While in play, to the rear of greens isn't nearly as likely to catch as many balls as front and centre and it won't intimidate as much either. To a lesser degree side bunkers are the same. Much of the fiercness of a bunker is its visual impact and the immediate knowledge of what can happen to a score if the bunker is found - especially if you have experienced its bite. However, the impact doesn't have to be all about a huge bank or what not, it could merely be a shadow (as in pot bunker shadow) that suggests all the evil a golfer can think of. This sort of bunker is far and few between. Out of curiosity, which course(s) in the States have the most of this sort?
Ciao
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I have to throw the 13th at French Creek in there. Not the bunkers on the corner, but the "dreadful pit" short left of the green. I took a picture of it, but the lighting is terrible so I wont bother posting it up. It sits way below the fairway and nearby green complex.
Dan Herrmann, do you have a good picture that represents the death and destruction this bunker posesses?
Mark
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I'll echo Tim Bert's nomination of the right greenside bunker at Pacific Dunes. That is one gnarly piece of bunkering.
My second nomination would be the front and center greenside "Devil's Asshole" bunker at the Dunes Club in New Buffalo, MI, for the reasons mentioned by Sean Arble. A player has to contend with this bunker with just about every shot into the 9th green. Another reason that the bunker is doubly hard is that you have to play it twice, because it's only a 9-hole course!
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I'll echo Tim Bert's nomination of the right greenside bunker at Pacific Dunes. That is one gnarly piece of bunkering.
My second nomination would be the front and center greenside "Devil's Asshole" bunker at the Dunes Club in New Buffalo, MI, for the reasons mentioned by Sean Arble. A player has to contend with this bunker with just about every shot into the 9th green. Another reason that the bunker is doubly hard is that you have to play it twice, because it's only a 9-hole course!
Terry
I like how you think. Heres hoping I never have to stand in front of your bench.
Ciao
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Mark,
Here's a picture that only begins to capture the depth of the bunker at FC #13. If you're in there, all you can see is bunker and fescues. I think it's probably 25' below the green surface.
(I jokingly call it the Volkswagen Bunker because it looks like you could bury a couple VW beetles in there and never miss them!)
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/French_Creek/mediafiles/l123.jpg)
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So many nice cute little bunkers. How about something in 5 and 7 acre range?
Plus, the sand is extremely soft, and seldom raked. Saving par? You might think more about 4 strokes just to get out of the foot prints! Sometimes to enable progress around the golf course to continue, a hand wedge is the best expedient.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/ChambersBayGC/P1000616.jpg)
Is that played as a bunker!? Holy crap! How many rakes does that thing have around it? That has to be a waste area, no?
My understanding is that during the US Am, they raked portions of them and declared the raked portions bunkers. However, during regular play it doesn't matter if it is a bunker or not. If you are in a foot print, you are SOL. If you hit it out of the footprint and don't make it to the grass, it runs back down until it finds, guess what, a foot print, to stop in.
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Lou Duran in the "Left" bunker at Yale #8. LOL
(http://gallery.me.com/mws13/100046/IMG_1452/web.jpg?ver=12746611600001)
(http://gallery.me.com/mws13/100046/IMG_1453/web.jpg?ver=12746611800001)
(http://gallery.me.com/mws13/100046/IMG_1454/web.jpg?ver=12746612090001)
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While perhaps not the fiercest bunker, this is one of the fiercest lies I can recall in a bunker...
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/Midwest/SHTPBBall2.jpg)
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Front left pot bunker on #2 at PV. Took me 6 shots to get out the first time I played there. Fortunately I eagled the hole the last time I played there so exacted some revenge.
The left bunker on #6 at Pac Dunes is pretty brutal especially if you plug in the face as I did recently.
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Perhaps one of these really isn't a bunker...but Mark Pritchett seemed to love both of these...
:) ;) :D ;D 8)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/AikenMarkslie.jpg)
(http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/mplumart/Secession14Marksapproach.jpg)
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Left bunker at #1 at Myopia and also the short-left bunker at #13 at Myopia... Others there get nominations from me...
Front bunker on #9, Back bunker on #14.
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Just about any of the bunkers at Hamilton Farm in Gladstone NJ qualify. Two come to mind.
(http://www.hamiltonfarmgolfclub.com/images/dynamic/getImage.gif?ID=776146)
The par 5 14th hole. The bunker in the center of the picture is about 30 yards from the center of the green...so it takes a very precise shot to get it close. All shots from this bunker are blind.
(http://www.hamiltonfarmgolfclub.com/images/dynamic/getImage.gif?ID=766506)
The par 3 17th hole. The 17th plays anywhere from 200 to 130 depending on the tee. Anything right of the green gets in this enormous bunker, which almost always results in a blind shot.
I've never seen a course with as severe a set of bunkers as Hamilton Farm. Very few will be played with high levels of confidence. In general, the sand in the bunkers is pretty fluffy and heavy. I don't know if either qualifies for "Fiercest Bunker" but I haven't played many that were tougher.
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How about the bunker fronting the green at Merion East #12? It's really deep and you have OB just beyond the green. Last time I played from there (a downhill lie near the front of the bunker), I'm proud to say that I skulled it over Ardmore road halfway up #13! Oops!
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Left greenside bunker at Royal New Kent's par 3, number 3. You have to go down steps to get into it... at least 15 feet deep. Obnoxious and hidden from the tee!
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4th at Sand Hills:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v478/foodstat/Sand%20Hills/figurine.jpg)
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I had a very tough time when I trickled the ball into the little back bunker on Old Macdonald #6, the Long hole. Took me three to get out, with the third shot well played. Small but fierce little bastard pot bunker.
John, please tell us how you REALLY feel about that bunker! :o ;D