Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jeff Fortson on August 10, 2010, 09:27:26 PM
-
I've been a member of GolfClubAtlas.com since 2000. Tommy Naccarato introduced me to the site after a random meeting at a golf course in the Palm Springs area. When I joined, I was thrilled to see that there were other people out there interested in the importance of course architecture. There was a common vibe that we were the few people in the golf world that cared when a great course would get destroyed by a renovation or saw the beauty in an unknown or forgotten about gem that time had left behind.
I was active on this site for many years. I could be immature at times and get involved in OT topics frequently, but it was always about the IMO pieces, course reviews and the educating and intellectual debates and discussions of the DG for me. I have learned more than I could have ever hoped on GCA.com about many things re: gca. From this website I learned about architects I had never heard of out here on the West Coast. When I moved to NYC for four years I spent a good deal of my free time playing and inspecting golf courses I never knew existed. Something which would have never happened had I not joined gca.com.
Through this website I met a host of people. Some were architects, some were supers, some were golf pros, some were just avid lovers of the game. Some of these people I still consider to be friends to this day. I played golf in three KP Cups and met a lot of great guys. I even got to meet Ran once, whom I respect very much.
But something happened. Something happened on this DG that I can't really put a finger on. In many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is). There is still great content in the interviews, the IMO's, the course reviews, but the DG just isn't the same. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. I can't speak for their personal reasons for not being on here but there are some very good people that no longer post on here and that is a shame. Some of these guys contributed so much more than all but a select few that still post and to see them not contribute saddens me.
Is it the "Access Whoring" that goes on?
I can tell you from experience, that in the short time I was an Assistant golf pro at Riviera, that once the emails and IM's started to come at me for access I started to shut down on here. It was appalling. An element had gotten in here that was less concerned with discussing gca and more concerned with getting access to high profile clubs. Only once did I accept an invite to play a course from a gca.com member and it was very enjoyable. It was unsolicited and I still feel a member should wait to be asked. If you actively write people IM's and emails to ask if you could be their guest at their club... I feel sorry for you. You are the lowest life form on this DG if you fit that description.
Was it the pissing contests that sprung up?
Obviously, I am referring to the Merion threads and others of the same ilk. Fortunately, I never got sucked into that one! But, all the political bickering that I took part in I totally regret. It should have never been brought up here. I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut when I see people saying stuff I completely disagree with. That's a fault of mine and I removed myself in many ways from the DG to stay away from it. I knew I was detracting from the website and was embarrassed for playing a part in it.
Was it something else?
Maybe, I am the only one here that feels this way. Maybe some of you think the DG is going strong right now. I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general. Like I said, I still come here often and check out everything but this DG is dysfunctional. Just look at all the great contributors that have left. I know I am kind of rambling but I truly find it sad that this DG has turned into a gossip board that talks more about Tiger Woods than St. Andrews or who's got a bigger brain on the Merion threads. I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played.
Bring back Tommy Naccarato.
Jeff F.
-
Jeff...
That really sucks that you feel that way. Seriously.
Those things are frustrating to me as well, but I try to find the positives of the site and, for me, those positives far outweigh the negatives. Mainly that has been finding a handful of people who I hope will be life long friends.
-
I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played.
That is perhaps one of the best lines I have seen written in regards to what we see on here sometimes. I, myself, have contributed to much of the off-topic stuff that has been seen on here recently, most likely not for the betterment of the site. Perhaps I should take a while off and just disappear. :-\
-
Jeff,
I think this board has a life of its own. We feed on the energy of others by its nature, so sometimes when it starts tilting negative, it keeps going that way for a while, and vice versa.
In the end, the board is not a monolith, its 1500 people. It probably tends to "average" if such a thing could be measured and your personal circumstance and mood is skewing your opinion of it temporarily. At least, that is what I find. I am interested here in ebbs and flows.
-
I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played.
Spot on.
-
Jeff,
I agree with you post and attribute the change to a number of things.
1. Access whoring (hence my avatar). I think there are in general more people that are looking to gain access through GCA connections than there used to be, or they are more overt about it. I spent the better part of 2 full summers trying to convince GCAers to join me on one of my several summertime trips up to Marquette to play Greywalls and got one taker. I'm guessing if it was a private course, there would've been many more takers.
2. Fewer new courses to discuss. The classics have been covered in microscopic detail, and the run of fantastic new courses that opened in the past decade or so has slowed considerably.
3. Participant turn-over. Some contributors of thoughtful content are no longer participating for various reasons. It happens.
Brad
-
Jeff:
Oh, I sometimes feel this way -- I mainly wish some folks who posted in the past would do so more often now.
But like a lot of things in life, we see what we want to see, and perhaps you're seeing a lot of the forest and not looking for some really wonderful trees in there.
To me, the most valuable part of the discussion board -- by far -- are the photo threads posted by contributers here, who continue to amaze me with their travels and interests in golf architecture. Just in the past month, we've seen threads on Harbor Shores in Michigan (Nicklaus), Worplesdan, Hackensack (Banks), Blue Mound (Raynor), and Moraine (Campbell), plus revitilization of threads brought back from folks who have recently played courses, such as Camargo and Culver Academies, plus a bunch of others I haven't mentioned. (Just yesterday, someone posted a great photo thread on a course not far from where I live, one I'd never heard of by an architect I've heard little of -- and it looks really interesting. Isn't that what this site is best at doing?) And sitting on the front page right now is probably the definitive thread on Sand Hills, full of incredible pictures, and despite some pissing and moaning in the middle of the thread, a lot of lively discussion about this course, in the tradition of the kind of vigorous debate that I think Ran envisioned.
Sure, Tiger gets his share of thread mentions (and I'll take my share of the credit/blame for these) -- he's the biggest story in golf right now, and to expect a bunch of golf nuts not to comment on golf's most famous golfer seems unrealistic. Besides, the Tiger threads are obviously marked that way, and easily avoided.
I think it was Shivas who said it best a while back -- despite all the bickering and back-and-forthing here, GCA remains by far the best website around for discussion and debate about golf architecture. I learn something nearly every day.
-
Jeff,
I think GCA is just fine for the most part. I don't enjoy the personal character attacks, but the moderators must tolerate them for some reason. I suspect they are popular entertainment? Utopia isn't always what it's cracked up to be. I admit to finding myself on here less and less, but every now and again there are some great posts & discussions.
I confess to missing the contributions of Rich Goodale. Always enjoyed his thoughts.
-
Jeff,
I wander away from here every now and then and always find there are kindred spirits waiting when I return, and for that I have to say I'm grateful. It also helps to be mindful that the only person whose conduct I can reasonably control is me, and it's much more fun being here if I'm not acting like a juvenile myself. This is a nice little refuge but in the end it can't be any different than the rest of the world.. nothing's perfect. Where else can you read a post like Tom Doak's Lyle Lovett riff? And that's just today.
-
I've been reading this website for years now, but as someone who is brand new to this forum and very excited about it, I would say don't give up. See if you can influence the masses to change their behavior. The original poster knows much better than I do that this is an amazing resource, but there are a lot of things on the Internet that need to be taken with a grain of salt...particularly in forums where people are passionate. The only other forum that I regularly read is about the college football team I root for and the feeling is VERY similar (any Iowa Hawkeye fans out there?). Some weeks everyone loves each other and agrees on everything and life is good. However, sometimes worlds are colliding at astounding rates and it is miserable. Overall, in good times and bad, I continue to participate because of the passion of the group and the knowledge of the group...both of which are certainly prevalent here.
I learned a lot from the original post about the culture of this board (i.e. what annoys the masses), but a little more constructiveness would have been more useful than simply venting. My guess is that a lot of people simply venting and arguing would lead to a pretty negative and hostile environment, which is no fun. Just my two cents.
Is there a general GCA etiquette guide that would help people understand the rules of the road? It might be something that would be worth sticking to the top of the board.
-
1. Access whoring (hence my avatar). I think there are in general more people that are looking to gain access through GCA connections than there used to be, or they are more overt about it. I spent the better part of 2 full summers trying to convince GCAers to join me on one of my several summertime trips up to Marquette to play Greywalls and got one taker. I'm guessing if it was a private course, there would've been many more takers.
Implicit in that post is the solution to access whoring. Don't join a nice club. If you're a member of a 9-hole, below average, semi-private course, you'll have very few people harassing you for access. I've found it works quite well and haven't had a single person on this site bother me with an avalanche of emails or IMs, trying to get on my good side. I'm sure if I was a member of Myopia, my life would suck with the onslaught of favor-seekers, so I steer clear of that club and others of the same ilk and pedigree.
But seriously, are there really actually people on here who are crass enough to track down members of private clubs and beg for entry? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's really hard to believe. If true, that sucks.
-
Jeff:
We miss you.
It's always been each person's duty to ignore the b.s., but it's getting harder nowadays. The b.s. seems to be expanding at the speed of light.
Still, you can ignore it. I spend far too much time here, but I only look at maybe one thread out of every five.
Dan:
Of course there are access seekers. Some are crass, some are not at all; sometimes it's hard to tell in advance, but they usually leave clues.
-
Dan,
May I inquire as to the identity of the 'below-average, semi-private' club you're a member of. And I want to say you're looking very dapper today!
-
There would be a relatively easy solution to the access seekers... Some online forums like this have a 'spam' button to report spam to the moderators. There may already be support for it in the software being used to run GCA, it was just disabled since it wasn't needed as only members can post or send PMs.
Get that set up, and encourage those who receive unsolicited PMs asking for access to use it to report them. It won't really help if someone finds out how to contact you by means other than GCA, but its mere presence would probably dissuade those who are doing this now from trying it! First time someone is reported they are warned, second time they are booted. End of problem.
EDIT:
I just noticed the "report to moderator" button below every post. I don't see it in the PMs, but I assume it could be easily added.
-
Jeff,
I'm sorry that your friends have gone away. This forum, for me, is a nice place to come and share ideas. It is a shame that you no longer feel that way.
I made an effort to get a bunch of people together for a New York state day's event (an actual NYSGA function) at Links at Hiawatha Landing this summer. After initial interest, no one signed up, so I bagged it. That's life. Too short to sweat the small stuff.
I don't have a private club to offer anyone. I also don't expect people on this forum to need the same things I do.
For about six or seven years, I was the assistant golf coach at my school to a fellow who differed immensely from me in a number of ways. We had a shared love of golf and coaching. Colleagues used to ask me how I could coach with him. My response always was, imagine if we were identical in our approaches...how much could I learn from him? He was successful using viable coaching techniques that did not naturally occur to me. Over time, I learned much from him and he learned a good bit from me. We won't always agree, but we will respect each other. It seems to me that you have lost that respect for many on this site. You may never regain that respect.
On behalf of the site, I will ask you in what language this access whoring is taking place. My English is very good, yet I don't recognize what folks consider to be inappropriate advances and requests. I recall one recent thread where a fellow asked where forum members might play in a certain region and another participant got all up in arms about old history of access whoring. That outburst surprised me then, just as your insinuation that GCA has jumped the shark.
I still have a lot to say and a lot to learn on the topic of golf course architecture, so I'll be on this forum as long as Ran keeps it going. If it's time for you to go, godspeed. I miss Tommy N. quite a bit, not nearly as much as you probably do. He was only back on for a year or so when I started. We still keep in touch, albeit off forum.
I would really like to know which recent threads would be considered access whoring. Please feel free to private message me with instances of this. If it is primarily a PM issue, as Doug Siebert suggests in his post, then that is an individual matter and not your concern. This site has two sheriffs in Ran and Ben; it doesn't need any more telling members how to behave and what to ask in private messages.
And, if you haven't noticed, we have some fine recent additions in Mac Plumart and Kevin Lynch, to name but two. I'm happy to share air time with them.
-
Re: access seekers. Years ago I received a PM from a board member who I didn't know, asking me to sponsor him for a nonresident membership at my club. He traveled to my area frequently for business and he explained that it would be great to have a local club to play when he was in town.
That, I imagine, is about as crass as it could get, but I managed to survive it.
-
Jeff:
I do not go as far back as you but for me the DG has evolved, and my interest in the topic has evolved. Some positive and some negative.
The biggest negative for me is the people that have left. For some that was probably a healthy change. For others I have no idea what happened.
The second biggest negative is that I feel like I have learned architecture 101 but also have learned that most aspects of building a golf course relate to issues that do not interest me a ton - the mechanics of actually building the stuff, drainage, environmental permits, making the course safe and easy to maintain, and making a business profitable. As to the concepts behind golf holes and my preferences between those concepts, I really do not think the topic is all that complicated.
The third biggest negative are the repeated nasty battles over what exactly happened in 1910 at Merion, Pine Valley or other venues. It does not matter that much and the discourse is embarassing.
I also think many of the best writers have left - which is what really attracted me to the site in the first place. A Gib rant is always a worthwhile read even if I have no knowledge of the subject of his diatribe. I miss those.
Finally - there aren't many courses being built so the live issues and new opportunities so prevelant in the early 2000's are greatly diminished.
Much of the change, however, is positive:
I focus a fair amount on maintanence issues from the DG. It seems to me that the roster of superintendents has grown substantially and we get great information on that front.
Some interesting new concepts arise - Choi's current thread about statistics is a terrific example that could potentially provide an approach to design that could make courses more interesting if used correctly and in harmony with nature.
The quality and quantity of photo tours has improved exponentially. The tours combined with on-line aerials from other sources has made it a valuable resource on that front.
Mucci (and others) provide very valuable perspectives on actually accomplishing goals associated with the care and modification of an existing course in the bewildering world of club politics. That sort of input has really helped me in pushing to improve (or more often limit damage) to my course by adapting concepts to my particular environment.
I have now attended every major gathering (as well as some minor events). I have had a great time on every trip. I don't think that
positive aspect of the DG has changed much other than a percentage of the participants. My wife now does not even look at me strangely when I discuss travelling across the country (or the Atlantic) to play golf with people I know through the internet.
A ton of the new participants inject fresh energy and interesting ideas. Often the ideas are repeats but that is inevitable.
Some issues seem the same to me:
I don't think access issues have changed much. Access issues have always been a concern and must be a huge hassle for those belonging to or working for places like Riviera. Most people want to play the best courses and have no idea how to do so. One does not make connections to high end clubs while playing the local muni and the method of getting on such courses is arcane and by design elitist. I love hosting people at my club and have made a number of very good friends in that manner. Then again my club is not on many people's wish lists.
There have always been people slightly (or well) off their rocker on this site. Sometimes it is entertaining but often it is not. Maybe that issue has gotten worse but I suspect not.
Has the site jumped the shark?- yes. Is it a worse shark? - not sure.
Other sites have their quirks as well. Bombsquadgolf has essentially evolved into a porn site. Instructional forums tend to be taken over by golf machine devotees. Other architecture sites have shortcomings also.
I check this one out first.
-
Whoa, there is porn on the internet?! Thanks, Jason. I'm out of here - for at least 5 minutes.
Seriously, gca.com is like anything in life. You get what you give. Access. Insight on remote courses. Insight on different perspectives on course renovation. It's all here. At times, maybe the filter needs to be adjusted, but there is no place better for a knowledgeable discussion. And sometimes none better
for an irrelevant argument!
-
Jeff
Good for you to have the strength of your convections (hot air) and submit a topic all about your opinion on the sites DG.
You made your case well and relased some of the tension and frustration that certainly seems to have built up within you over the years.
Nevertheless you post screams of hypocrisy, why is it your right to voice your opinion no matter how strongly, yet you condemn others for doing the very same. You also have no balls in that you clearly make the following statement I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played yet will not name names having said that you have clearly single me out for your criticism.
As it’s a DG you have the right to an opinion whether we agree or not, that’s the point of a DG. The DG is a golfing forum for free ideas and opinions to be discussed or ignored by the members of the forum. In truth you are criticising the very right of others to have a say or voice, just because they do not go along with your way of thinking.
As for my point of view, it has always been just that, my point of view, my opinion on a DG. Its based upon a sincere belief that the game is moving away from its core traditions established over centuries. This DG is about golf and so I have every right to offer up my opinions on the subject. How others interoperate my tone in my posts is down to them, all I say is that it is from the heart as golf, its people and its history including Prestwick and St Andrews have been ever present all my life. Clearly this is something I can only share with other members of my family who also care about the game. I have a unique insight to the game and so my opinions may well differ from those of others, yet I have no power to change anything, no authority just the freedom that this site offers me to post my opinions.
You are a coward for not having the bottle to openly attack me or others by naming names but you make it very clear that you are sick of me and my right to free speech.
If I feel something is wrong at least, like it or not I voice my opinion and try and share my concerns with others who I was lead to believe were like minded.
Jeff, John Kyle and any others who feel the same way, let me state that whether I agree or not with your opinions or decided to debate the points of your topic, I still most sincerely believe that you have the right to that opinion, pity you don’t show the same courtesy and share that same value with others.
Melvyn
-
Sure, some good guys have left that are not replaceable, Rihc Goodale being the first one to come to mind. Why these guys leave is to a large degree irrelevant. We all have our melting points and bug bears and will stand no more when the time comes, but leaving isn't necessarily related to digust. While I will never understand the Merion like trash talk, its the emotion behind that nonsense which drives this site. Anyway, its all part of group dynamics which like it or not, rules the roost. We need this sort of stuff to keep things fresh. The problem is these folks don't change their subjects of disagrement nearly often enough and it becomes boring and pointless. The fruits of their labour are lost morass of bullshit. If things could be kept to 15 rounds all would be much better.
I often hear of access whoring, but I rarely come across it. I am sure that some of this is down to differing perceptions about what folks are asking - at least on the publlic forum. I have said it before, but I shall say it again. I don't mind in the least if guys ask me to have a game. If it works out fine, if not, thats life - there is no harm in asking. The way I see it I can't guess if folks want to have a game so its easier if they just ask me. That said, I completely understand if others don't want to be harassed for access and all I can say is it is a personal issue. I won't be asking anybody for access unless it is offered or I am at least reasonably good friends. So, if anybody wants me to access their clubs - please ask - tee hee.
I will say that I am disappointed when stupid Tiger threads speculating on his life and game (or the like or even multiple threads on a the same course) dominate the first page when good photo tours or other threads slip away to oblivion in less than a day. Sooner or later guys will stop taking the time to post these tours/discussion points if folks don't look at them and at least offer some sort of comment - if only a thank you.
All in all, GCA.com is what you make of it, but it sure is easier if more people contribute properly.
Ciao
-
I don't read the threads I just look at the pictures.
Anthony
-
can someone explain what "jumped the shark" means? :-\
-
can someone explain what "jumped the shark" means? :-\
There was an episode of Happy Days where Fonzie, waterskiing, jumped over a shark. It was roundly viewed as the point where the series was on a downward spiral and was destined to never be as good ever again.
Some people focus on the "doing something zany and ridiculous to get attention" side of the scenario when they say "that was the point where such and such jumped the shark", others just mean "that's the point where it all went to shit".
-
And Richie had grown up into Mr Ron Howard....
thanks Scott - that is gold.
Is it that widely understood in the US?
-
Jeff,
Thanks for starting the annual "has GCA.com jumped the shark?" thread.
The answer is no. It is easy to romanticize the past but if you take a look at some of those threads "in the early days," there was as much bickering, fighting, access whoring, etc., etc., etc. as there is now.
Also, you'll notice there was much less actual research going on back then and much less in the way of interesting philosophical discussion.
GCA.com, like anything else in this world, can only be what you make of it. If you think it sucks, don't hang around. We'd like your contributions, though, as I am sure they are great. But please quit with the tired old "good ol days" routine that we get every year, usually from some disgruntled former poster....
-
Jumped the shark?
That reminds me. Any chance someone could get me onto that new private Greg Norman course? ;D ;D ;D
TFIC.
-
Whilst we can moan about people with a poor grasp of respect arguing with each other over trivia, like the TV it's easy to deal with. Just don't read it and more importantly do not reply to feed the rubbish.
As for access it's considered acceptable here to ask to play a friends club as a paying guest and to ask for a membership application to be sponsored. Maybe the US isn't the classless society are led to believe it is.
-
Brett,
Yes, it is understood by the 1970s generation and the ones after it...I was about 13 when Fonzie jumped the shark, so generations previous to mine would not know it unless they came across it or were tutored on its meaning.
Anthony,
I don't think that there's anything wrong with looking at the pictures. Good of you to out yourself. Hope others will join us.
JC,
Why are you so bitter about the good, new days?
Everyone else,
Keep posting (except on Tiger!)
-
Aren't there stil great courses being built?
ARG
-
On behalf of the site, I will ask you in what language this access whoring is taking place. My English is very good, yet I don't recognize what folks consider to be inappropriate advances and requests. I recall one recent thread where a fellow asked where forum members might play in a certain region and another participant got all up in arms about old history of access whoring. That outburst surprised me then, just as your insinuation that GCA has jumped the shark.
OK Inspector Clouseau, you are quite the sleuth. ::). I've been a member of this DG for nearly 8 years now, and I'll list every private club I've been fortunate enough to play through participation in the DG in an IM to you shortly. I've taken advantage of opportunities that were offered to me, but I have not one single frigging time solicited access to a private course through this DG or in any other fashion. Not even through reciprocity of my home club. I am free to throw stones because my house has no glass to break. Can you say the same?
Brad
-
Ah yes, the every 12 - 18 month has GCA jumped the shark thread!
GCA has jumped the shark a bunch of times..
The old days were good but not as rosy as some remember.
Yes I miss Rcih, Tommy, Geoff, Mike Duffy, Mothman, etc.... people come people go.
Most people on this board have been very blessed in golf and in life.
If you can find a better board than GCA then go.
-
Without getting into the exact details of Jeff's post above, as it's really a repeat of what seems to be an annual thread, I would answer with a simple "no."
For all it's issues, GCA is still the best website of it's kind on the internet and overall is a wonderful community. I've had the chance to meet alot of really interesting and neat people from all over the country at either GCA events like the Midwest Mashie or one of the various Chicago GCA winter get togethers. I've also sent e-mails/PMs to participants that I know are from an area I was heading to asking if they were up for a game or a beer and have met some great people there. In the same way I've always had an open invitation to any GCAer to give me a call if they knew they were heading to the area.
People forget that when you boil this place down to its fundementals it's really all about the people and our common interest and love of all things golf and golf courses.
-
1. Access whoring (hence my avatar)
Is the avatar from step brothers? If so, brilliant.
Anyways, I've spent enough wasted time on the internets and I've spent enough time on way too many message boards. If there is one thing I learned, it is that no matter where you go on the interenet (and regardless of the topic of the discussion group-be it video games or hockey or football or whatever) everyone more or less agrees that the message board was a lot better one or two or five or ten years ago when everyone was really smart and funny and posted insightful things. The current edition of the whatever message board is full of too many newbies, too many people that don't know the etiquette of the board, and too many morons.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that everywhere on the internet, the good old days were always better than today.
-
1. Access whoring (hence my avatar)
Is the avatar from step brothers? If so, brilliant.
Yes it is, straight from the music video.
Brad
-
Has it Jumped the Shark? I don’t believe it has. I haven’t been a member for long, but a long, long time lurker. Honestly, couldn’t figure out how to join when it told me membership was “locked” or some other such thing. I spent many hours reading the course write ups by Ran, and those were simply inspiring. Then, I’d read just about every course write up by members, especially those with pictures. I wasn’t focused so much on the architecture, just enjoying the course and comments by those who played it.
Now, I have come to love the architectural aspect of it so much more. As much as some here, not even close. I still want to PLAY golf, and score as good as I can. Also, I do want to play fine course, and what is wrong with that? Isn’t that what they are there for? Anyway, I still believe the discussion threads about courses is the greatest aspect of this site. I really don’t care at all about the history of Merion, though clearly, others do. I can only read so much of that. Further, if there are threads about Tiger, I just don’t read them. I don’t have enough time in the day for that. The thread right now on Sand Hills is one of the best I’ve ever read, and particularly, as it is where I’ll be next week. And no, I didn’t “whore myself out” to get that invite!
;D
-
GCA remains by far the best website around for discussion and debate about golf architecture.
Other sites have their quirks as well. Bombsquadgolf has essentially evolved into a porn site. Instructional forums tend to be taken over by golf machine devotees. Other architecture sites have shortcomings also.
there is no place better for a knowledgeable discussion.
If you can find a better board than GCA then go.
For all it's issues, GCA is still the best website of it's kind on the internet and overall is a wonderful community.
All fair and reasonable sentiments.
But I find myself thinking of a newspaper I used to work at that was so far and away the best in the region that those at the helm got a touch complacent and within a few years it (and they) had grown fat and lazy and it was no longer the best in its market.
It's entirely possible for GCA.com to be both the best website of its type AND significantly flawed. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a great place even better or address the weaknesses it might have.
-
If jumping, leaping, or quickly typing my response when the invitation came out to play Lost Dunes is considered "access whoring," then color me guilty of that. However, I defy anyone to read Brett Morrisey's thread about his trip to the States and be critical of this DG. The absolute joy that comes through his words about an awesome trip is the reason I "waste" so very much time each day wandering around this site. . .
-
I'm not in a position to be on the receiving end of a dozen or a score or a hundred access requests from people I've never heard of. I can see how that would well and truly suck.
Beyond that, it really comes down to ignoring the incessant pissing contests. Why grown men feel the need to carry on these grudge fests for months or years at a stretch is beyond me. That which I can't understand I can ignore.
That's about it, though. If you ignore the schoolyard taunting threads (and the frequent interjections of same into otherwise worthwhile threads) and aren't subject to harassment by access-seekers it's a fine place to hang out. I mean hey, it's an Internet forum and a few drama queens come with the territory. I wouldn't consider that to be a disabling set of issues.
-
To further elaborate on some of the things Scott Warren quoted, I have to say that GCA is still the best place to be during majors. The discussion (for the most part, obviously) of Pebble and The Old Course was both lively and insightful.
Also, the discussion/analysis of Old McDonald has been nothing short of comprehensive.
-
Scott:
"It's entirely possible for GCA.com to be both the best website of its type AND significantly flawed. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a great place even better or address the weaknesses it might have."
True, but Jeff's original complaint centered on, essentially, three things:
a) -- Access issues, in part seemingly tied to his position at a very high-profile and private club;
b) -- Lots of personal animosity expressed on what appears to be a relatively few threads;
c) -- Missing some folks he liked who used to contribute, but don't now.
All of those, from where I sit, come down to personal conduct and/or choices by people whose actions none of us here can control, nor do I personally want to. As for the rest of the site, Ran continues to post interesting and well-written profiles of courses old (Canterbury) and new (Ballyhack), interviews with folks deeply involved in golf architecture, and hosts a discussion board that every single week contains a photo thread of some course with a lot of interest, and alot to tell us, about the incredible variety of courses around the world.
This is a wheat-and-chaff issue, and if folks can't separate the two, I'd suggest they're not trying hard enough...
-
Didn't Tommy leave willingly?
Jeff...I'd like to see him back here as well but I believe that's his decision.
-
Yep Tommy took his ball and went home... from what I hear though Tommy's fine and hanging out at the lounge.
-
Jeff, I'm not sure why you have returned to this 'jump the shark' theme once again. How many times have we been there and done that? It is sort of like the periodic obligatory group therapy, get it off you chest venting of frustration that we seem to go through on a regular basis.
One of the modern throw away lines seems to be: "it is what it is". Personally, I don't like hearing that line very often, but unfortunately, it completely applies or defines the problems we sometimes go through here on GCA.com along with its many splendid conversations and benefits.
We all have our warts, and if we've been on GCA.com long enough, know where every other long time participant's goats are tied. So in a way, when we have some underlying need to call attention to ourselves, we often revert to some embedded line of observation or comment that we know will piss off or get a rise out of some others, and then the food fight starts. Some of our participants have taken that sort of posting of 'red flags at a bull' methods of commenting to sadistic levels of confrontation and taunting. What a pity...
For those that are missing, most of them were not chased off. They left voluntarily. Those that were asked to leave or IP banned; they made their own beds with comments that went beyond the pale by just about anyone's standards of decency. With some of them, we lost some very insightful commentatiors of GCA issues, but the nastiness that came with it became too much to suffer, when seeing otherwise nice people gut eachother over basically egotistical demonstrations of; 'my gca accumen is greater than yours'.
And for the record, I have tried very hard to avoid some of the bad GCA acting posts I succumbed to in the past when taking the bait and rising to the occasion of taunts or opportunistic political comment from right wing political off topic discussions, only to interject my equally o.t. irrelavant disenchanted formerly conservative, now liberal views of matters. I go to local newspaper blogs now, where the foodfight posts are generally capped at 1000 characters of raging opinion. Although I can't promise that I am completely over that bad GCA.com behaviour and might backslide from time to time, like a reformed alcoholic slips now and then... ::)
-
RJ,
You're a wise man...nice post.
-
If I may bring up another sitcom reference...
It does seem to me that this type of thread pops up every year for one reason or another. Personally, I think it is healthy to vent a bit. It is better to hash it out in the open rather than just bottling it up than just leave this place due to frustration.
So, perhaps we should have an annual GCA Festivus Day (Festivus for the Rest of Us! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus). We can plant our virtual Festivus pole and have the annual "Air of Grievances" (we can probably skip the "Feats of Strength" though I would love to see Shiv go against Pat Craig).
Everyone can post what bugs them about this site for that one day and then move on.
What do you think?
-
I say live and let live.
Some folks don't know how to gain access to a club they'd like to play. For me, if I know someone is a member and has publicly written on this site to PM or email them for a game (i.e, they have an open invite) then I have no qualms about asking. If I want to play a club and that isn't the case, direct letter to the club is the fall back and most preferred method of seeing the golf course. And also, personally contacting someone for information about their club or course isn't always a ruse for access. I've personally contacted half a dozen folks on this DG asking about their course/club with absolutely no implication or expectation to play. I just wanted to know more about why they love their course.
Last word about access. This has been said before; the genuine folks are easy to spot, and the trophy hunters are easy to spot too. Just this summer, Pat Mucci, Jim Colton, and Brad Fleischer have all set up public access (folks on this DG) to great golf courses. Thats three trips with off the top of my head to great golf courses. There's plenty to go around.
As far as the very personal bickering and animosity? I read it sometimes for informational purposes. I have no desire to go to war with anyone over the genesis of a golf course. Life's too short and I've been shot at, so for me, I'd rather golf courses stay positive. Superciliousness has no place in speaking about golf courses.
-
Yawn.
Hey, didn't MacKenzie design Merion?
-
This topic comes up every so often. I pretty much always say the same thing when it does:
Ignore the negatives, there's far far more positives, and start contributing to the positives. Start interesting architectural threads. If they get ignored, start another one.
I'd love it if Tommy and others returned, but that's in their hands, no?
Jed, lookout behind you!
-
Sorry. I just have to respond to this.
Jeff
Good for you to have the strength of your convections (hot air) and submit a topic all about your opinion on the sites DG.
You made your case well and relased some of the tension and frustration that certainly seems to have built up within you over the years.
Nevertheless you post screams of hypocrisy, why is it your right to voice your opinion no matter how strongly, yet you condemn others for doing the very same. You also have no balls in that you clearly make the following statement I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played yet will not name names having said that you have clearly single me out for your criticism.
As it’s a DG you have the right to an opinion whether we agree or not, that’s the point of a DG. The DG is a golfing forum for free ideas and opinions to be discussed or ignored by the members of the forum. In truth you are criticising the very right of others to have a say or voice, just because they do not go along with your way of thinking.
As for my point of view, it has always been just that, my point of view, my opinion on a DG. Its based upon a sincere belief that the game is moving away from its core traditions established over centuries. This DG is about golf and so I have every right to offer up my opinions on the subject. How others interoperate my tone in my posts is down to them, all I say is that it is from the heart as golf, its people and its history including Prestwick and St Andrews have been ever present all my life. Clearly this is something I can only share with other members of my family who also care about the game. I have a unique insight to the game and so my opinions may well differ from those of others, yet I have no power to change anything, no authority just the freedom that this site offers me to post my opinions.
You are a coward for not having the bottle to openly attack me or others by naming names but you make it very clear that you are sick of me and my right to free speech.
If I feel something is wrong at least, like it or not I voice my opinion and try and share my concerns with others who I was lead to believe were like minded.
Jeff, John Kyle and any others who feel the same way, let me state that whether I agree or not with your opinions or decided to debate the points of your topic, I still most sincerely believe that you have the right to that opinion, pity you don’t show the same courtesy and share that same value with others.
Melvyn
Melvyn,
At what point did I condemn people for having opinions in my post? I'm all for differing opinions. If I'm a "hypocrite" then what does criticizing my opinion make you? Do you see your own hypocrisy? At what point did I suggest you, personally, not be allowed to post or say anything? How am I infringing on your free speech? Don't I have the right to share my opinions too? Or, is that reserved for the great-great grandchildren of famous golfers? I never even brought up free speech. Are you drunk?
I'm not going to get in some pissing match with you. Considering how well known you have made it that you are the great-great grandson of Tom Morris I guess that would lump you in with the "relatives of famous golfers" group. Oops.
Let me share an opinion with you... being the alleged great-great grandson of Tom Morris (while being a very cool thing) does not make you any more of an authority on golf than anyone else. Speak your mind. Please. But don't try to support your beliefs based on your genes. I've read so many posts of yours where I visualize your great-great grandfather rolling his eyes and wanting to say "shut the fuck up lad". That's MY opinion.
As for not having the "bottle" aka "balls" and being a "coward", well believe whatever you like. I don't need to prove anything to someone that bases the value of their own opinions on the fact that they were made from Old Tom Morris's baby batter.
I really missed you Melvyn. Thanks for the laugh. Now I'm remembering why I left in the first place.
Jeff F.
-
To everyone else,
I agree there is still some great stuff on this website and I come back here all the time. I guess I just feel that the DG is a shadow of its former self. There are still some great threads and some great contributors. I'm glad to see the likes of Mucci, Paul, Doak, etc., etc. (forgive me for not including many more of you), but I find it sad that this DG got to a point where many were either kicked off or chose to leave.
For all the newer guys, I truly hope gca.com has been able to do for you what it did for me for many years. It's a great resource and a fun place to chat (or used to be). Just don't abuse it, or great contributors might leave like they have in the past.
I'm off the soap box. Sorry from this long time member for sharing his concerns.
I'll still lurk and post occasionally.
Jeff F.
-
Reminds me of the adage:
"Not as good as it was, better than it will be."
Applies to most things.
-
I have seen this in other forums that I have been involved with for long periods.
Most everything has been discussed and just gets rehashed by the new members coming in.
I wonder if the conflicts could be mostly the older members looking to enliven things and getting a bit snippy with another over small details? Also seems like we have gained a bunch of "bomb squad" members that really have no interest in architecture.
-
Jeff,
Your biggest problem is that you belong to that ignorant, arrogant, brainless, low-class group of New York Yankee lovers...
Let's go METS!
-
Actually, I am not sure that 'jump the shark' is the appropriate term anyway.
It means to turn into absurdity rather than just decline after many years. The TV show Law and Order is declining after almost 20 years, but hasn't become absurd.
-
Jeff,
I think that the Yankee's relief pitching is somewhat suspect. Don't you agree?
-
Has it jumped the shark? Clearly if they let hacks like me in.....
-
Jeff,
I think that the Yankee's relif pitching is somewhat suspect. Don't you agree?
Yes, all except for the closer. Best there ever was and will be at closing.
Phillip,
Funny... we say the same thing about you guys. ;)
Jeff F.
-
Jeff F,
Compared to you I am probably still a newbie to this board.
However the interesting thing is, that in 2 years, I haven't heard your name on the board and cannot recall a valuable architecture related post of yours.
If you think the DG has become worse, why don't you actually take a look at the first page and share your architectural knowledge and opinion with us and write a few posts?
Remember you are a part of the DG, and if you want it to be better, why not start yourself.
I can't judge if this DG really has become weaker in the past decade, but it certainly hasn't in the past 2 years.
Cheers
-
Jeff,
Your biggest problem is that you belong to that ignorant, arrogant, brainless, low-class group of New York Yankee lovers...
Let's go METS!
Careful Phil ,some of us Yankee-lovers are in the market for an AWT coffee table book.
-
This place is as awesome as people want to make it. And that is the 100% gospel truth.
I've found people who love golf like I do;
I've found people who love hickory golf like I do;
I've found people who know who CB MacDonald is;
I've encountered people who have differing opinions that I do and I've listened to them...at times finding out they are right, while other times finding out I think my point of view is better or more appropriate for me;
This place isn't perfect and at times some of the things are a bit of a drag and a let down, but some of the highlights of my brief time here have been off the charts wonderful...
playing Pine Needles with Chris Buie, playing Hilton Head with Eric, JC, and Anthony, playing Holston Hills with Eric, Anthony, Mr. Becker, and John. Hell, before this site I'd never even heard of Holston Hills. Discovering so many wonderful books. Literally, I could go on and on. This place has been a Godsend for me.
Jeff...I hope this site can get back to its former glory for you, if there is anything I can do to make it better send me an IM...I'll do what I can, if I can make a difference.
-
JM, Tilly's WORST personal quality was that he was a Philadelphia Athletics fan! He even wrote some articles about the team without ever mentioning golf one single time. "AWT coffee table book..." I actually spent an hour on the phone last nioght with a publisher talking about that very subject...
In all seriousness Jeff, the newer ones who haven't seen you comment are missing out...
-
Jeff; I understand the source of your post. I believe that all of the issues you have raised are real. I believe that the same issues have existed since I first came to the board a long time ago but I believe the issues have become more prevalent recently. Clearly if these problems diminish any pleasure you receive from being here to the point where you would rather not participate you will join the list of many other valuable contributors who have become "fed up" and the board will be less interesting for your leaving. I am not there yet, perhaps because as an attorney I have a greater tolerance for the type of discourse that is turning people off.
But threads and events like this one give us an opportunity to ask why we come to this board and to contemplate its purpose. As to the latter question, it is clear in its statement of purpose that the board should be dedicated to the discussion of golf course architecture, presumably to further its members knowledge and enjoyment of that topic. I know that I came here, and continue to come here, to learn what I can about the topic and to engage in presumably intelligent discourse about it. A pleasurable byproduct has been that I have made many friends; some who I see and play golf with and others who I have yet to meet in person.
But there are things that this board should not be used for because they detract from the other purposes. It should not be used to try to prove that the poster is "the smartest guy in the room". It should not be used as a forum for personal attacks. It should not be used as a means to cadge invites to courses; if someone wants to play with you he/she will let you know.
This leaves plenty of room for appropriately pointed debate on any and all topics. But where the parties take opposite positions and rather than seeking to explain their differences resort to attacks based upon the assumption that their position is a fortiori correct and therefore their opponents are either venal or stupid (or both I suppose) there is no education being conducted and the site is cheapened. If the opposite sides can't be reconciled, it is alright to agree to disagree and move along. The key is to maintain civility and remember that we all share a common interest that brought us together.
Enough of my soapbox. I just regret that the invective and other problems are driving good people away. The real issue is that the greatest offenders either can't recognize that they are offenders or don't care. So, notwithstanding this post, I see little hope for change.
-
Sheldon...
that was money!!! Thanks for taking the time on that one. Spot on.
-
A Fortiori: adv. For a still stronger reason; all the more.
See-We're still learning stuff here... 8)
-
Considering how well known you have made it that you are the great-great grandson of Tom Morris I guess that would lump you in with the "relatives of famous golfers" group. Oops.
I guess I don't understand the purpose of a "where the site has gone wrong" thread which decries the level of discourse and then moves immediately to a not-really-veiled dig at a single person.
That aside, if you were spammed that much with access requests, that's just embarrassing on the part of the some other participants here. (Frankly I thought you were in Palm Springs, but maybe Riviera was before my time. Clearly I am not following GCAccess closely enough.)
-
Considering how well known you have made it that you are the great-great grandson of Tom Morris I guess that would lump you in with the "relatives of famous golfers" group. Oops.
I guess I don't understand the purpose of a "where the site has gone wrong" thread which decries the level of discourse and then moves immediately to a not-really-veiled dig at a single person.
That aside, if you were spammed that much with access requests, that's just embarrassing on the part of the some other participants here. (Frankly I thought you were in Palm Springs, but maybe Riviera was before my time. Clearly I am not following GCAccess closely enough.)
Jason,
I made one vague reference to someone in an entire post dedicated to way more than that one person. There was no veil. I definitely threw that in there for a reason. I think there are people on this website that detract from it. I was one of them at times. I removed myself when I started to recognize that I was way out of line.
I am in Palm Springs, Palm Desert to be exact. I worked at Riviera over 5 years ago but I was bombarded with access requests and STILL get them. I love it when someone still asks me if I could get them out. I should compile all these requests and make a coffee table book out of them. I could only imagine the requests that members of high profile clubs must get on here.
Jeff F.
-
Jeff,
The one thing you bring up that is highly counterproductive is the access whoring. I was not aware that it was so prevalent. It's a shame that some here don't understand the etiquette of inviting guests/getting invited. While I love playing great courses with great people I would never be so presumptuous to impose myself on someone's good graces. There are plenty of opportunities to get out with guys from the site on great tracks without being a pig about it....
-
I am in Palm Springs, Palm Desert to be exact. I worked at Riviera over 5 years ago but I was bombarded with access requests and STILL get them. I love it when someone still asks me if I could get them out. I should compile all these requests and make a coffee table book out of them. I could only imagine the requests that members of high profile clubs must get on here.
I still think your initial post sort of works at cross purposes, but I've had my say, so I'll leave it there.
Anyway, you get access requests for a place you haven't been in 5 years? Good grief. :-\
I think your coffee table book would make a great IMO piece: "In my opinion, the following people need to stop trying to cadge access from fellow members:"
-
Final observation (I think):
A lot of the problems ascribed to this site are simply reflections of the shortcomings of any internet discussion board (and a lot smaller ones than a lot of other boards have). A great deal of any communication lies in the reader's/listener's knowledge of the poster/speaker, and especially if that knowledge is true.
One man's rude behavior is another man's simple joke. One man's impertinent question is another's honest, simple, perhaps naive question. One man's access whoring is another's plain and simple request. And on and on.
I can't tell you how many times I've had people tell me, you should have asked me, I know a member at such and such (often top notch places). I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone poke a little fun on here and the other person acted as though he had been physically assaulted.
In many ways, all of this reflects why we have the Get To Know threads - in the hopes that by getting to know each other a little better, we can get around some of the inferred slights that aren't really there. Obviously, in that sense, those threads have failed. But I will persist in the hopes that eventually folks will begin to give everyone else a break in the manner they'd like to get themselves.
There's few problems on here that can't be solved without first looking in the mirror.
In the words of my best client, chill out, man, have a beer.
-
This site is still excellent. I have learned so much in my four years as a member and I have done my best to help spread that knowledge to friends and members at my club (until their eyes start to glaze over.)
An unexpected benefit has been some great people that I got to meet a few CGA events that I attended (Beechtree going away party and Bandon this May) and I look forward to meeting many more at Mountain Ridge this September.
I am never a big fan of someone complaining about a site, a company, a golf course, or ANYTHING unless they can show me what they have done to make it better.
The lack of civility and common manners of a few is embarrassing and wrong. I had the opportunity to meet Ran this year ( a perfect Southern gentleman), and now I feel like we are guests in his house and we should act accordingly. Hmm, maybe I'll post this concept on another thread. :)
-
This is still a wonderful forum that I nearly daily enjoy. To me the biggest reason for the increase in bickering and repetitive subjects is the plain fact that there are now a quite small amount of new course openings compared to past years. As a result, there is much less to discuss. The amount of posts with pictures during development and opening of a new course, along with the multiple reviews and comparisons to other tracks as new points of discussion has been greatly diminished.
-
Actually, I am not sure that 'jump the shark' is the appropriate term anyway.
It means to turn into absurdity rather than just decline after many years. The TV show Law and Order is declining after almost 20 years, but hasn't become absurd.
I think the phrase "jumped the shark" has jumped the shark.
-
Actually, I am not sure that 'jump the shark' is the appropriate term anyway.
It means to turn into absurdity rather than just decline after many years. The TV show Law and Order is declining after almost 20 years, but hasn't become absurd.
I think the phrase "jumped the shark" has jumped the shark.
Probably so! which brings the lurking question to the surface: have threads with titles like 'Has GCA.com jumped the shark?" jumped the shark?
-
People have used this site to access whores??
In all seriousness, I wasn't aware of the blatant attempts at access. I imagine most of it comes via PMs and email. Furthermore, those with access are obviously the individuals who receive the requests, so naturally I wouldn't have noticed it. It seems a bit icky...That said, I have received standing invitations from several on this site that I hope to accept sooner or later. I only hope that someday I can be in the position to do the same for others...
-
I haven't seen much asking for access around here.
-
I've found that when people are talking/writing about others they are usually making more of a statement about themselves than the other person.
For instance, when an individual is making a gratuitously disrespectful comment about another person they think that they are pointing out the other persons character flaws. In fact, they are telling me much more about their own character than the person they are needlessly attacking.
-
Chris, did you just invoke "I'm rubber you're glue"? :)
-
I've found that when people are talking/writing about others they are usually making more of a statement about themselves than the other person.
For instance, when an individual is making a gratuitously disrespectful comment about another person they think that they are pointing out the other persons character flaws. In fact, they are telling me much more about their own character than the person they are needlessly attacking.
Well done!
-
I've found that when people are talking/writing about others they are usually making more of a statement about themselves than the other person.
For instance, when an individual is making a gratuitously disrespectful comment about another person they think that they are pointing out the other persons character flaws. In fact, they are telling me much more about their own character than the person they are needlessly attacking.
Example?
JF
-
I've found that when people are talking/writing about others they are usually making more of a statement about themselves than the other person.
For instance, when an individual is making a gratuitously disrespectful comment about another person they think that they are pointing out the other persons character flaws. In fact, they are telling me much more about their own character than the person they are needlessly attacking.
Example?
JF
perhaps? ;) ;D
Melvyn,
At what point did I condemn people for having opinions in my post? I'm all for differing opinions. If I'm a "hypocrite" then what does criticizing my opinion make you? Do you see your own hypocrisy? At what point did I suggest you, personally, not be allowed to post or say anything? How am I infringing on your free speech? Don't I have the right to share my opinions too? Or, is that reserved for the great-great grandchildren of famous golfers? I never even brought up free speech. Are you drunk?
I'm not going to get in some pissing match with you. Considering how well known you have made it that you are the great-great grandson of Tom Morris I guess that would lump you in with the "relatives of famous golfers" group. Oops.
Let me share an opinion with you... being the alleged great-great grandson of Tom Morris (while being a very cool thing) does not make you any more of an authority on golf than anyone else. Speak your mind. Please. But don't try to support your beliefs based on your genes. I've read so many posts of yours where I visualize your great-great grandfather rolling his eyes and wanting to say "shut the fuck up lad". That's MY opinion.
As for not having the "bottle" aka "balls" and being a "coward", well believe whatever you like. I don't need to prove anything to someone that bases the value of their own opinions on the fact that they were made from Old Tom Morris's baby batter.
I really missed you Melvyn. Thanks for the laugh. Now I'm remembering why I left in the first place.
Jeff F.
-
Chris, did you just invoke "I'm rubber you're glue"? :)
:-X
(but really OT, I can't wait for some verb form related to the movie Inception to make it into common parlance ('inceptioned'?) analogizing the dreams within dreams within dreams deal...)
-
I've found that when people are talking/writing about others they are usually making more of a statement about themselves than the other person.
For instance, when an individual is making a gratuitously disrespectful comment about another person they think that they are pointing out the other persons character flaws. In fact, they are telling me much more about their own character than the person they are needlessly attacking.
Example?
JF
perhaps? ;) ;D
Melvyn,
At what point did I condemn people for having opinions in my post? I'm all for differing opinions. If I'm a "hypocrite" then what does criticizing my opinion make you? Do you see your own hypocrisy? At what point did I suggest you, personally, not be allowed to post or say anything? How am I infringing on your free speech? Don't I have the right to share my opinions too? Or, is that reserved for the great-great grandchildren of famous golfers? I never even brought up free speech. Are you drunk?
I'm not going to get in some pissing match with you. Considering how well known you have made it that you are the great-great grandson of Tom Morris I guess that would lump you in with the "relatives of famous golfers" group. Oops.
Let me share an opinion with you... being the alleged great-great grandson of Tom Morris (while being a very cool thing) does not make you any more of an authority on golf than anyone else. Speak your mind. Please. But don't try to support your beliefs based on your genes. I've read so many posts of yours where I visualize your great-great grandfather rolling his eyes and wanting to say "shut the fuck up lad". That's MY opinion.
As for not having the "bottle" aka "balls" and being a "coward", well believe whatever you like. I don't need to prove anything to someone that bases the value of their own opinions on the fact that they were made from Old Tom Morris's baby batter.
I really missed you Melvyn. Thanks for the laugh. Now I'm remembering why I left in the first place.
Jeff F.
Just what did you learn about me from that? Funny that you didn't bring the same thing up to Melvyn after he called me a coward. Better yet, aren't you engaged in the same activity by calling me out for my opinion of Melvyn? I miss this website!
JF
-
Actually, I am not sure that 'jump the shark' is the appropriate term anyway.
It means to turn into absurdity rather than just decline after many years. The TV show Law and Order is declining after almost 20 years, but hasn't become absurd.
I think the phrase "jumped the shark" has jumped the shark.
Indeed! I much prefer the "Nuked the fridge" analogy...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark
;D
Okay, so I still consider myself fairly new around here but the DG as a whole is still very educational, informative and entertaining. All in all a great resource and place to discuss a subject with like minded people. And as for the occasional T***r or M****n thread, if they bother you, just dont read them? And who was it that said there was porn on the interent? Wel,some of the photo threads on here are certainly golf porn! ;)
On a serious note, has anyone considered splitting the DG into a series of different sub headings so that us like minded people can discuss various subjects, knowing what we are letting ourselves in for? For instance we could have:
- Historical interest
- Architects
- Maintenance
- Photo tours
- "Access Whoring" ;D Sorry, scrub that one...
- OT
or something like that anyway, where different topic threads could be posted under different headings? Could this work? Would people be happier to only visit say the Historical or Photo Tour area, and therefore not get put off by all the T***r thread?
Cheers,
James
ps I just noticed that when I put M****n I meant Merion, and not a certain relative of a famous old Scottish golfer...
-
I've found that when people are talking/writing about others they are usually making more of a statement about themselves than the other person.
For instance, when an individual is making a gratuitously disrespectful comment about another person they think that they are pointing out the other persons character flaws. In fact, they are telling me much more about their own character than the person they are needlessly attacking.
Example?
JF
perhaps? ;) ;D
Melvyn,
At what point did I condemn people for having opinions in my post? I'm all for differing opinions. If I'm a "hypocrite" then what does criticizing my opinion make you? Do you see your own hypocrisy? At what point did I suggest you, personally, not be allowed to post or say anything? How am I infringing on your free speech? Don't I have the right to share my opinions too? Or, is that reserved for the great-great grandchildren of famous golfers? I never even brought up free speech. Are you drunk?
I'm not going to get in some pissing match with you. Considering how well known you have made it that you are the great-great grandson of Tom Morris I guess that would lump you in with the "relatives of famous golfers" group. Oops.
Let me share an opinion with you... being the alleged great-great grandson of Tom Morris (while being a very cool thing) does not make you any more of an authority on golf than anyone else. Speak your mind. Please. But don't try to support your beliefs based on your genes. I've read so many posts of yours where I visualize your great-great grandfather rolling his eyes and wanting to say "shut the fuck up lad". That's MY opinion.
As for not having the "bottle" aka "balls" and being a "coward", well believe whatever you like. I don't need to prove anything to someone that bases the value of their own opinions on the fact that they were made from Old Tom Morris's baby batter.
I really missed you Melvyn. Thanks for the laugh. Now I'm remembering why I left in the first place.
Jeff F.
Just what did you learn about me from that? Funny that you didn't bring the same thing up to Melvyn after he called me a coward. Better yet, aren't you engaged in the same activity by calling me out for my opinion of Melvyn? I miss this website!
JF
Jeff F.,
I've learned that you have a great sense of humor ???
I miss those fun loving threads from the good ol days when you would discuss politics.....
-
Well done
See I can tell from Jon's comment he is a man of charm and exquisite taste! ;)
Jeff, you are asking for an example of disrespectful commentary on this forum? I don't think anything good would come from singling out a particular comment/person. Let's just leave the idea out there for people to consider. It's better that way, I think. I really try not to rough up people on here and in life when I disagree. Why would I want to belittle anybody? Why would anybody want to do that?
Richard, not quite sure what you mean. Got to go to dinner now. I'll be happy to respond to any question when I get back.
-
JC,
My apologies. I thought I was being set up for a second. While there were both funny and mean spirited arguments about politics on here that I engaged in, I was wrong to do so. It's one thing when a political discussion lasts a couple of posts but when this DG gets turned into Hannity and Colmes, it detracts from it, IMO.
Fortunately, I didn't burn too many bridges. Those I did and those I am doing right now, I could care less about. But, I didn't come to gca to talk about Obamacare or the fact that Sarah Palin is the most vapid, gut wrenchingly bad politican/pundit/celebrity on the planet. I came here to talk about golf, and in particular, golf course architecture. And, when I see the website lose its mojo because people have turned it into their Black Book of access whoring and their place to start a Notorious BIG vs. Tupac East Coast/West Coast war I start to understand why.
Jeff F.
-
JC,
My apologies. I thought I was being set up for a second. While there were both funny and mean spirited arguments about politics on here that I engaged in, I was wrong to do so. It's one thing when a political discussion lasts a couple of posts but when this DG gets turned into Hannity and Colmes, it detracts from it, IMO.
Fortunately, I didn't burn too many bridges. Those I did and those I am doing right now, I could care less about. But, I didn't come to gca to talk about Obamacare or the fact that Sarah Palin is the most vapid, gut wrenchingly bad politican/pundit/celebrity on the planet. I came here to talk about golf, and in particular, golf course architecture. And, when I see the website lose its mojo because people have turned it into their Black Book of access whoring and their place to start a Notorious BIG vs. Tupac East Coast/West Coast war I start to understand why.
Jeff F.
Good deal. Now that you and I are straight, do you still have any contacts at Riviera?
-
Jeff
Clearly you have not read my post correctly, so I again attach it below, perhaps you will find it easier a second time.
As for “But don't try to support your beliefs based on your genes” what a stupid comment to make when all I or others have to do is direct you to the history of the game. As for “ being the alleged great-great grandson of Tom Morris”, you have forgotten Charlie Hunter of Prestwick, George and Jack Morris Hoylake, James, Robert and John Hunter and old Willie Rusacks. Oh yes I missed Young Tommy Morris, J.OE Morris and a line to Allan Robertson as well. Cool I can’t say but fact yes.
Still not finished you come out with “I've read so many posts of yours where I visualize your great-great grandfather rolling his eyes and wanting to say "shut the fuck up lad". Well that might be your opinion, however I believe he would be pleased that someone is fighting to keep walking a major part of the game. I am certain he would hate carts and certainly any form of distance aids. He might even say why are golfers given up, has it become too hard to walk and think at the same time, but then that’s my opinion.
Copy of my original post on this subject, perhaps you will do me the courtesy of reading it this time.
Good for you to have the strength of your convections (hot air) and submit a topic all about your opinion on the sites DG
You made your case well and released some of the tension and frustration that certainly seems to have built up within you over the years.
Nevertheless you post screams of hypocrisy, why is it your right to voice your opinion no matter how strongly, yet you condemn others for doing the very same. You also have no balls in that you clearly make the following statement I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played yet will not name names having said that you have clearly single me out for your criticism.
As it’s a DG you have the right to an opinion whether we agree or not, that’s the point of a DG. The DG is a golfing forum for free ideas and opinions to be discussed or ignored by the members of the forum. In truth you are criticising the very right of others to have a say or voice, just because they do not go along with your way of thinking.
As for my point of view, it has always been just that, my point of view, my opinion on a DG. Its based upon a sincere belief that the game is moving away from its core traditions established over centuries. This DG is about golf and so I have every right to offer up my opinions on the subject. How others interoperate my tone in my posts is down to them, all I say is that it is from the heart as golf, its people and its history including Prestwick and St Andrews have been ever present all my life. Clearly this is something I can only share with other members of my family who also care about the game. I have a unique insight to the game and so my opinions may well differ from those of others, yet I have no power to change anything, no authority just the freedom that this site offers me to post my opinions.
You are a coward for not having the bottle to openly attack me or others by naming names but you make it very clear that you are sick of me and my right to free speech.
If I feel something is wrong at least, like it or not I voice my opinion and try and share my concerns with others who I was lead to believe were like minded.
Jeff, John Kyle and any others who feel the same way, let me state that whether I agree or not with your opinions or decided to debate the points of your topic, I still most sincerely believe that you have the right to that opinion, pity you don’t show the same courtesy and share that same value with others.
Melvyn
-
I understand what Jeff is trying to say.
OT's dilute the overall quality of the site and using the site to seek access remains a problem.
Both valid points.
Jeff also seems to lament the loss of participation by the likes of Geoff Shackelford, Gib Papazian, Tommy Nacarrato, Rich Goodale, Ran and many others.
Those participants are difficult to replace in terms of the quality of their contributions.
While the discussion group section of GCA.com is devoted to the discussion of GCA and related topics, "related topics" has become a stretch of the imagination. More threads should be focused on GCA. OT threads should be allowed to quickly move toward oblivion.
On that part, I also agree with Jeff.
As to the bickering, I don't mind it IF it PRODUCES valueable information.
I think the Merion threads, and there have been many of them dating back about 10 years, have almost always produced informative material. Where it's just a cat fight, it becomes tedious, worthless.
One of the failures of the site has been the inability to extract more information from participating architects and superintendents.
We're very fortunate to have a good number of GCA's and GCS's contributing to the site.
You'd think that we could "pick their brains" more than we have.
I want to thank them for participating and contributing, they've been a great asset.
End of rant ;D
-
Pat...
that is no rant, that is a good post.
You know I think the architects have shared a great deal. I have numerous Jeff Brauer posts cut and pasted into my word files for continued reference. Tom Doak and Forrest Richardson and debating Askernish right now. Ian Andrew always posts GREAT stuff. I could go on and on.
I think the issue is a lot of people don't want to listen, they want to tell.
This website is GREAT...off the charts GREAT. If you seek information, it is right here under your nose. You just have to open up your ears/eyes.
In fact, Patrick you had a great post on Pine Tree and rankings and changes to the Top 100 courses over time. Again, I think there were some fights and arguments and defensiveness on that thread. But if we just took a step back and read it, listened, and thought...we all should have learned something from it.
-
One of the failures of the site has been the inability to extract more information from participating architects and superintendents.
We're very fortunate to have a good number of GCA's and GCS's contributing to the site.
You'd think that we could "pick their brains" more than we have.
I want to thank them for participating and contributing, they've been a great asset.
When they're proud of what they consider some of their best work and it is routinely trashed by guys who live in a world of no constraints, it isn't a surprise they don't feel like going to that well again.
-
Pat...
that is no rant, that is a good post.
You know I think the architects have shared a great deal. I have numerous Jeff Brauer posts cut and pasted into my word files for continued reference. Tom Doak and Forrest Richardson and debating Askernish right now. Ian Andrew always posts GREAT stuff. I could go on and on.
I think the issue is a lot of people don't want to listen, they want to tell.
This website is GREAT...off the charts GREAT. If you seek information, it is right here under your nose. You just have to open up your ears/eyes.
In fact, Patrick you had a great post on Pine Tree and rankings and changes to the Top 100 courses over time. Again, I think there were some fights and arguments and defensiveness on that thread. But if we just took a step back and read it, listened, and thought...we all should have learned something from it.
I agree regarding Pat Mucci's posts. Unless of course he is trying to convince you there are no swamps in Florida....
-
One of the failures of the site has been the inability to extract more information from participating architects and superintendents.
We're very fortunate to have a good number of GCA's and GCS's contributing to the site.
You'd think that we could "pick their brains" more than we have.
I want to thank them for participating and contributing, they've been a great asset.
When they're proud of what they consider some of their best work and it is routinely trashed by guys who live in a world of no constraints, it isn't a surprise they don't feel like going to that well again.
Or better yet, when other architects and people in the industry trash their work......
-
One of the failures of the site has been the inability to extract more information from participating architects and superintendents.
We're very fortunate to have a good number of GCA's and GCS's contributing to the site.
You'd think that we could "pick their brains" more than we have.
I want to thank them for participating and contributing, they've been a great asset.
When they're proud of what they consider some of their best work and it is routinely trashed by guys who live in a world of no constraints, it isn't a surprise they don't feel like going to that well again.
John,
I think you have to differentiate between constructive criticism and destructive criticism.
Without constructive criticism, progress is impossible.
I think constructive criticism is a positive and should be welcome, even though it may be painful.
Sniping, on the other hand, should be dismissed.
-
Jeff
Clearly you have not read my post correctly, so I again attach it below, perhaps you will find it easier a second time.
As for “But don't try to support your beliefs based on your genes” what a stupid comment to make when all I or others have to do is direct you to the history of the game. As for “ being the alleged great-great grandson of Tom Morris”, you have forgotten Charlie Hunter of Prestwick, George and Jack Morris Hoylake, James, Robert and John Hunter and old Willie Rusacks. Oh yes I missed Young Tommy Morris, J.OE Morris and a line to Allan Robertson as well. Cool I can’t say but fact yes.
Still not finished you come out with “I've read so many posts of yours where I visualize your great-great grandfather rolling his eyes and wanting to say "shut the fuck up lad". Well that might be your opinion, however I believe he would be pleased that someone is fighting to keep walking a major part of the game. I am certain he would hate carts and certainly any form of distance aids. He might even say why are golfers given up, has it become too hard to walk and think at the same time, but then that’s my opinion.
What the hell does this mean? Can someone translate this for me? I have never seen someone so incoherent on here. I really don't understand what you are saying. Do they teach grammar in Scotland? No offense, but you make zero sense in your first paragraph.
As for paragraph 2... I don't disagree with you re: carts vs. walking and yardage guides and range finders. I just think you come off as someone that relies on their lineage to make a point. Just because you are related to Tom Morris doesn't mean that you are the authority on the spirit of the game. Have your opinions, just don't try to validate them by claiming you know what your great-great grandfather would have said. Why did Old Tom abandon the featherie and go with the guttie? Wasn't that a step away from "tradition"? Wasn't that a giant step to make regarding abandoning tradition for new technology? You are undebatable Melvyn. You are too wrapped up in your lineage and self-importance to be changed.
JF
-
Actually, I am not sure that 'jump the shark' is the appropriate term anyway.
It means to turn into absurdity rather than just decline after many years. The TV show Law and Order is declining after almost 20 years, but hasn't become absurd.
I think the phrase "jumped the shark" has jumped the shark.
I think pointing out that the phrase "jumped the shark" has jumped the shark...has jumped the shark.
-
Just a suggestion.... has anyone considered sub-forums? Or would that be too hard to maintain?
Archie forum, general golf forum, potpourri forum.
-
Instead of "jump the shark" let's call it the "When GCA.com became a socialist muslim". I want to see gca.com's birth certificate. ::)
JF
-
But, all the political bickering that I took part in I totally regret.
Your statement in 85 boils down to "I didn't come here to talk about political things such as this political person at whom I direct an ad hominem comment."
Serious question: Is that really the kind of substantive contribution with which you wish to mark your return? The slightly older (and Internet-adapted) version of "I'm not touching you!" is what you picked?
It should have never been brought up here.
As you say.
I look forward to your architecture comments.
-
Jeff
You don’t half talk a load of bullocks, so I feel it pointless posting further on this subject of yours.
However to make certain I am not seen pimping myself, I, as of today will not be meeting with any GCA.com Members who find themselves in St Andrews or Scotland this year or in the future. After all why would anyone want to speak to me face to face, certainly not because of my lineage nor would I want to promote my own self-importance. So thanks to you Jeff they have been saved from a fate worse than death.
As for GCA.com, well we have a DG we deserve thanks to the efforts of the silent majority who tolerate the whoring.
Keep chewing the cud, Jeff
Melvyn
-
Melvyn,
You say about Old Tom Morris:
I am certain he would hate carts and certainly any form of distance aids.
Given in his lifetime he showed a willingness to embrace technology in the form of the gutta percha golf ball (no small matter in that day as evidenced by his falling out with Allan Robertson over the change) I struggle to see how, four or five generations later, you can claim with absolute certainty that he would hate the technological advances occurring in the current day.
I doubt anyone's ability to know how people, even their forebears, who died more than a century ago would view contemporary events and issues, and in this case the person in question's own actions lead us some way in the other direction from what you are stating with "certainty".
So how is it that you know how Old Tom would feel about 21st century technological advances and how did Old Tom, during his lifetime, demonstrate the feelings you are attributing to him?
-
Melvyn,
I have to agree with Scott. I think Old Tom would be embracing many of the changes in golf that has helped make the game an international sport for all and helped make a living for many a teaching pro around the world.
I think he would love the fact that the game has become easier to play than it was all those years ago which has helped more to play the game.
-
Scott
I would not dare to suggest that you are talking crap about your forefathers, nevertheless what right have you to question my or my family’s knowledge on Old Tom or any other relative.
Anyway should we be talking about my family on here at it seem to upset so many. Some may even consider that I am riding a wave for the sake of social improvement and wealth if I mention their names.
Agree with me or not that’s down to you and others
Melvyn
PS Brian I will send you a PM.
-
I would not dare to suggest that you are talking crap about your forefathers, nevertheless what right have you to question my or my family’s knowledge on Old Tom or any other relative.
Melvyn,
I simply asked for you to tell us what Old Tom demonstrated or said in his lifetime that enables you four or five generations later and more than 100 years after his death to be certain of how he would view current events.
Most of your posts include Old Tom's name, so I can't accept that you have an aversion to discussing him.
-
Scott
Most of my posts do not include his name
Melvyn
-
Melvyn, I invite you to answer my question from post #100:
How is it that you know how Old Tom would feel about 21st century technological advances and how did Old Tom, during his lifetime, demonstrate the feelings you are attributing to him?
You wrote:
what right have you to question my or my family’s knowledge on Old Tom or any other relative.
If you are going to state, with a claim of certainty, how someone from the 19th Century would view matters of the new millennium, I don't think it is unfair to ask what acts/comments from the person's life lead you to take that position with such conviction.
-
Scott
I have already answered your question as I said Agree with me or not that’s down to you and others
Melvyn
-
If you've got a problem with someone it's always better to take it up with them directly and privately. If someone has a problem with Melvyn send him a private message instead of a thinly veiled, passive aggressive reference.
If there's a problem with access whoring, take it up with the whore and then Ran and Ben. Since I'm not a member at a nice enough club to be access whored it's hard for me to believe that it is that big of a problem. Maybe it's just me but I can't believe it would be that big a deal to be asked to play my club. There are so many ways to handle it: ignore all requests with the delete button; only accept requests from people I "know; accept every request I could fit in my schedule (they're paying, I like playing golf, I like meeting new golfers); and any number of others. But, clearly there are people that feel this is a problem. It's better to call people out specifically than make a general statement as the offenders never realize it's them. I've been a part of my family's business for almost 15 years. If there is one thing that I've seen happen over and over is that when you have a problem employee you can never be too direct (always privately ad never in front of other employees) about the issue with them. Even when you tell them their job is on the line if the behavior doesn't change, then the behavior doesn't change and you fire them, they are always surprised. Basically, I've found people never really see their faults. So, for all of you coming on here and making blanket statements that there is access whoring and it really bothers you, I don't see you doing anything that actually solve the problem. The offenders don't know it's them. Nor do others on here who learn who the offenders are and what is offensive. Is posting that you are coming to an area and want to play with anyone access whoring? When I've done that I'm just looking to meet people on the site and don't care where we play. I'd rather play with people from this site at a public course than random people at a public course.
I suggested this on another thread (and someone joked about it above) but I think there should be an access whore thread/link/whatever. Those who are willing to host and have no qualms about it should let it be known on that thread. Make it a condition of membership here that if people access whore to someone outside of that thread they get one warning and then boot them on the second. This protects the people that don't want to be asked, makes it known who would love to host if you just asked them, and it makes it much clearer for someone who might be labeled an access whore who doesn't want to be labeled that way.
-
Jeff F,
"Do they teach grammar in Scotland? No offense, ..........."
I take offense. I had an excellent education in Scotland.
Cheers Colin
-
As Yogi Berra said..."Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded".
Sort of sums up the angst among Jeff and many others.
I bet there are more (quantity) quality threads per week here than in the past, it's just that they are a lower percentage of the total due to the increased volume of threads per week.
For those interested, you just have to look.
-
Shiv,
NO. Old Tom would have looked at it and said. "Aye, Get that friggin broomhandle off my course boy. If it's sweepin you're after, my shop be needin a good dust-up." 8)
-
Jud
You may well be spot on, but then again you could be expressing nothing but B.S. Perhaps you can answer Scotts question as you seem to have more inside information.
Melvyn
-
Melvyn, I invite you to answer my question from post #100:
How is it that you know how Old Tom would feel about 21st century technological advances and how did Old Tom, during his lifetime, demonstrate the feelings you are attributing to him?
Scott: that is an interesting question - one I'd like Melvyn to take a stab at answering. I believe that since the time game was first invented, golfers have craved better B&I. I believe that Old Tom probably marketed the fact that he built better B&I. When you've got the goods, it's not only smart business, but also human nature to say so. So I don't automatically believe this stuff about how the ODGs would be appauled by today's technology. Perhaps the length aspect would bother them, but not necessarily the rest of it.
For example, personally, I believe that if somebody had invented the Long Putter back in Old Tom's time, and Old Tom saw him using it to putt, Old Tom would have come over to that fellow and said "Sir, may I try that?" and if Old Tom started making everything he looked at with it, it'd have gone in Old Tom's bag immediately!!
Melvyn, if you disagree, fire away...
If allowed to mark his ball with a 10 pence piece, do you think Old Tom would have put the seam of his feathery down in such a way as to point the direction towards the hole?? ;D ;D
-
I'm inclined to believe Old Tom may have had a friendlier attitude towards technology than many might think. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't his split with Robertson due to Tom's seeing the Gutta as the future of golf, while his mentor condemned the new-fangled ball as a menace.
-
I now have an Access Whored Envy (i.e. I don't belong to a nice enough club to be access whored constantly...)
-
From wikipedia:
"The relationship between Robertson and Morris soured when the guttie ball was introduced (see golf ball - history). Robertson caught Morris playing with a guttie, and fired him on the spot. Robertson attempted to suppress the popularity of the new and cheaper ball which spelt the end of his own 100-year-old business making the featherie ball. Morris accepted the march of progress and felt obliged to leave Robertson and set up his own workshop. Morris moved to Prestwick in 1851, on the west coast of Scotland, to build a new golf course, where he served as professional and greenkeeper. The guttie ball revolutionised golf and Robertson's featherie business did indeed collapse, although Robertson quickly moved to manufacture the guttie, which was made from liquid rubber found in Malaysia."
-
From wikipedia:
"The relationship between Robertson and Morris soured when the guttie ball was introduced (see golf ball - history). Robertson caught Morris playing with a guttie, and fired him on the spot. Robertson attempted to suppress the popularity of the new and cheaper ball which spelt the end of his own 100-year-old business making the featherie ball. Morris accepted the march of progress and felt obliged to leave Robertson and set up his own workshop. Morris moved to Prestwick in 1851, on the west coast of Scotland, to build a new golf course, where he served as professional and greenkeeper. The guttie ball revolutionised golf and Robertson's featherie business did indeed collapse, although Robertson quickly moved to manufacture the guttie, which was made from liquid rubber found in Malaysia."
Shocking. This is a paradigm shift.
-
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent. But there are two other issues to which Jeff alluded that constitute a greater threat, because, if the remain unchecked, they will cause more good people to leave the site.
The first is the use of the site to grind an axe against somebody that you have an architectural "argument" with. I'm a lawyer by education and now I'm a judge, so I'm used to argument. We argue about stuff every day. Sometimes it gets heated. Sometimes you say things you wish you hadn't. But it is overwhelmingly true that we tend to adhere to Shakespeare's famous line about lawyers that they strive mightily but eat and drink as friends. Some of these Merion arguments make it impossible for the latter to occur. And that, to me, has a corrosive effect upon the fraternity.
The second is MHM and everything he stands for. The basic business model is to preach, prescribe and proscribe. Stir the pot. Tell people what they should do. And remind everybody periodically of the "weight" that his opinions have because of his lineage. And then when people dare to disagree or take a shot at his holiness, he claims that the poster had "misread" or "misunderstood" his post. And if it's late enough at night, he throws in some nice ad hominem attacks. Finally, follow it up with the "I'm a victim" b.s.
In a word, Mr. Morrow, you are poison to nice civilized conversation in these parts. Your preaching from your self-anointed bully pulpit leaves you looking like nothing more than a feckless bully. You've ruined more days than "made" days around here. You have a coterie of defenders who must have some sway because you have not been heretofore banished, but it would make a lot of people's days if you would take up your repeated threat to leave our company and I doubt that many would miss your contributions. If golf's last frontier is in the mind, I invite you to have unlimited inner dialogue and keep your poisonous opinions to yourself.
-
If allowed to mark his ball with a 10 pence piece, do you think Old Tom would have put the seam of his feathery down in such a way as to point the direction towards the hole?? ;D ;D
Now, THERE is the question that matters. And the answer, of course, is: HELL NO!
Old Tom being old would have used old money. Lets call it a shilling marker. As an aside, what sort of culture came up with 20 shillings to the pound when a shilling was 12 pennies? It gets worse, much worse....
http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/moneyold.htm
Terry
Where is all this transparent access whoring going on? I hear about it all the time, but never see it much.
Ciao
-
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.
Examples?
-
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.
Examples?
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44989.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42431.msg955717/#msg955717
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43951.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43973.0/
And all those by the same person; shamefully, one of those threads I thought was ok and even on topic.
And honestly, I hope none of my posts about "Golf courses in XX City" have come off as trying to get any access. That has never been my intention. My sole intention on those threads was to get input on what public courses were the best places to see while I was there.
-
John,
Touche. The idiots guide to getting the look is the same advice once given to young children at the adult's table:
Don't speak unless spoken to
Best way to get the look is by making friends who love golf and golf courses, not because you're looking for a handout of a bedpost notch but because you genuinely enjoy same.
Best way to lose friends who love golf and golf courses: blatently asking for access to a Top 100 course
-
John,
One of the examples you are giving there is a question on deals relating to National Memberships. Interpretations of other posts notwithstanding, how is that access whoring? I just recently joined as a National Member a top 100 modern, the GM and Head Pro of which responded in that thread. I'd hate to think if I or another had started a similar thread that I/we would get branded an access whore.
I suppose I don't see the access whore issue as being as rampant as suggested. Perhaps because it is happening more via e-mail and PM's as opposed to via the public threads. I have no reason to doubt Mr. Lavin statements, so it must be a lot of (attempted) back channel communications. I just don't see it jumping out at me from the threads.
You've highlighted 1 out of 1500, and frankly I don't even take all the examples from that one to be on topic.
-
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.
Examples?
I'll give you a very common AW approach. A poster who never adds anything of any significance in any of his posts contacts a panel member whom he has discovered is a member of an exclusive Long Island club and asks about getting on to play and adds that he's "a Golfweek rater" and that he'll "talk the club up" on gca.com. This sort of stuff goes on all the time. Then there are the threads that ask for any information about "XXX Country Club", with no indication early in the thread or later on in the thread that the poster has an active interest in the architectural bona fides of the place, he's merely waiting for a member or somebody who knows a member who will schedule a round for him while he's "passing through on business". Generally speaking, the AW has nothing to provide "in kind" and does precious little for the site other than to make himself available for an invitation to a private club.
-
Time and time again I make it clear that it’s my opinion that I am voicing on this site, a DG site on the internet.
I have also stated time and again that I have no authority or legal standing in the R&A or any legal body so no way of changing any rules, so why are you so scared about my opinions or is it the tone in which you believe I submit my posts? I can’t tell people what to do, and anyway who would listen to me if I even tried. I am accused of mentioning family members on nearly every post that not true and easily proven by checking my posts.
I have no power, very little influence so just what is your problem. Is what I am say hitting some nerve or making you feel guilty, I have no idea but I know one thing that is if you are indeed a Judge Terry then God help anyone who does not agree with you – you sound like our old Judge Jefferies who condemn men to the gallows for nearly any reason.
I see a witch hunt here, worst still I see a nasty form of censorship falling upon this site. You and your Merry Men (Men in Black) trying to rule by verbal intimidation. Yet why are you scared of a little now isolated Scotsman, what is it really that frightens you a non-existent tone you feel you are detecting.
If Ran or all the others want me to leave I will willing do so, in fact if Jeff had not dragged me back by this topic I would have quietly left. Don’t believe me ask Mac, George and a few others. But I will not be driven out by bigots like you and Jeff. So thanks to this post I am staying to fight your type of nasty bullying censorship.
The silent majority can make a stand if they wish or keep quiet until you (Men in Black) decide to attack another Member.
Look in the mirror guys it’s you with the poisonous attitudes and opinions, it’s you guys who want me silenced and off this site. Who really are the bullies you lot or me.
As for golf, yes I play the traditional game, I keep faith by walking and thinking for myself, I play courses that offer a challenge as I believe Golf requires a commitment to play it in its honest form.
Do your worst Jeff, Terry and anyone else who would be happy to see me leave.
Melvyn
-
John,
One of the examples you are giving there is a question on deals relating to National Memberships. Interpretations of other posts notwithstanding, how is that access whoring? I actually just recently joined as a National Member a top 100 modern, the GM and Head Pro of which actually responded in that thread. I'd hate to think if I or another had started a similar thread that I/we would get branded an access whore.
I suppose I don't see the access whore issue as being as rampant as suggested. Perhaps because it is happening more via e-mail and PM's as opposed to via the public threads. I have no reason to doubt Mr. Lavin statements, so it must be a lot of (attempted) back channel communications. I just don't see it jumping out at me from the threads.
You've highlighted 1 out of 1500, and frankly I don't even take all the examples from that one to be on topic.
You are partially correct, in regards to the National Membership thread. It all depends on the tone. He was being very specific about which kind of course he wanted, not what kind of atmosphere. To say "which clubs are offering deals on national memberships" or "which top 100 courses are offering national memberships" is completely different. It all depends on how you post it.
-
And no, I don't think the site has jumped the proverbial shark. It's just getting periodically stressed, like all organic entities will get periodically stressed.
-
Time and time again I make it clear that it’s my opinion that I am voicing on this site, a DG site on the internet.
I have also stated time and again that I have no authority or legal standing in the R&A or any legal body so no way of changing any rules, so why are you so scared about my opinions or is it the tone in which you believe I submit my posts? I can’t tell people what to do, and anyway who would listen to me if I even tried. I am accused of mentioning family members on nearly every post that not true and easily proven by checking my posts.
I have no power, very little influence so just what is your problem. Is what I am say hitting some nerve or making you feel guilty, I have no idea but I know one thing that is if you are indeed a Judge Terry then God help anyone who does not agree with you – you sound like our old Judge Jefferies who condemn men to the gallows for nearly any reason.
I see a witch hunt here, worst still I see a nasty form of censorship falling upon this site. You and your Merry Men (Men in Black) trying to rule by verbal intimidation. Yet why are you scared of a little now isolated Scotsman, what is it really that frightens you a non-existent tone you feel you are detecting.
If Ran or all the others want me to leave I will willing do so, in fact if Jeff had not dragged me back by this topic I would have quietly left. Don’t believe me ask Mac, George and a few others. But I will not be driven out by bigots like you and Jeff. So thanks to this post I am staying to fight your type of nasty bullying censorship.
The silent majority can make a stand if they wish or keep quiet until you (Men in Black) decide to attack another Member.
Look in the mirror guys it’s you with the poisonous attitudes and opinions, it’s you guys who want me silenced and off this site. Who really are the bullies you lot or me.
As for golf, yes I play the traditional game, I keep faith by walking and thinking for myself, I play courses that offer a challenge as I believe Golf requires a commitment to play it in its honest form.
Do your worst Jeff, Terry and anyone else who would be happy to see me leave.
Melvyn
Melvyn,
You attack people all the time. You're a sham. You took what could have been a valuable resource, your family name, and squandered it on this DG, IMO. In person, you might be the nicest person alive, but on here you come off as a rambling lunatic. At least that's my opinion.
The funny part is that I agree golf is a game that should be walked. I also agree that range finders detract from the sport. But, when you use your family name to put muscle behind your opinions you better be able to back them up. You have been asked multiple times to answer the "featherie vs. guttie" issue about Old Tom and how you could be sure that he wasn't an avid supporter of making the sport easier via technology. You reply with "agree with me or not that's down to you and others". Is that a substantive answer that proves anything? So, you want to use Old Tom as a weapon to give weight to your opinion and then when questioned about Old Tom's actions and motives we are to assume that you just "know" what he would think based on the fact that you are his descendant? See how that doesn't really have weight?
I can tell you that I really don't care if you are the descendant of Old Tom Morris. I've been to St. Andrews and Scotland three times. I love it. I have played the Old Course nine times. I have had my picture taken at the Young Tom grave site. I have worked for the R&A at the Open Championship at St. Andrews. I have a deep appreciation for the history and roots of the sport. I guess that is why I have such a problem with what I perceive to be a total injustice to your forefathers good name.
I am certainly not bigoted and not a bully. I haven't been active here for quite a while. I am not trying to censor you. Speak your mind. Please! I, for one, just refuse to sit back and watch YOU bully others with your family name.
Jeff F.
-
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.
Examples?
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44989.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42431.msg955717/#msg955717
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43951.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43973.0/
And all those by the same person; shamefully, one of those threads I thought was ok and even on topic.
And honestly, I hope none of my posts about "Golf courses in XX City" have come off as trying to get any access. That has never been my intention. My sole intention on those threads was to get input on what public courses were the best places to see while I was there.
If all of your examples are of one person, then maybe it's just that one person that is the problem. And maybe he just felt he was being straight-up honest among friends.
I feel for those being inundated with requests, but if that's the worst thing you can say about this site, that's a pretty good thing, imho.
-
Melvyn, I invite you to answer my question from post #100:
How is it that you know how Old Tom would feel about 21st century technological advances and how did Old Tom, during his lifetime, demonstrate the feelings you are attributing to him?
Scott: that is an interesting question - one I'd like Melvyn to take a stab at answering. I believe that since the time game was first invented, golfers have craved better B&I. I believe that Old Tom probably marketed the fact that he built better B&I. When you've got the goods, it's not only smart business, but also human nature to say so. So I don't automatically believe this stuff about how the ODGs would be appauled by today's technology. Perhaps the length aspect would bother them, but not necessarily the rest of it.
For example, personally, I believe that if somebody had invented the Long Putter back in Old Tom's time, and Old Tom saw him using it to putt, Old Tom would have come over to that fellow and said "Sir, may I try that?" and if Old Tom started making everything he looked at with it, it'd have gone in Old Tom's bag immediately!!
Melvyn, if you disagree, fire away...
If allowed to mark his ball with a 10 pence piece, do you think Old Tom would have put the seam of his feathery down in such a way as to point the direction towards the hole?? ;D ;D
why would Old Tom be marking his ball?
-
Melvyn, I invite you to answer my question from post #100:
How is it that you know how Old Tom would feel about 21st century technological advances and how did Old Tom, during his lifetime, demonstrate the feelings you are attributing to him?
Scott: that is an interesting question - one I'd like Melvyn to take a stab at answering. I believe that since the time game was first invented, golfers have craved better B&I. I believe that Old Tom probably marketed the fact that he built better B&I. When you've got the goods, it's not only smart business, but also human nature to say so. So I don't automatically believe this stuff about how the ODGs would be appauled by today's technology. Perhaps the length aspect would bother them, but not necessarily the rest of it.
For example, personally, I believe that if somebody had invented the Long Putter back in Old Tom's time, and Old Tom saw him using it to putt, Old Tom would have come over to that fellow and said "Sir, may I try that?" and if Old Tom started making everything he looked at with it, it'd have gone in Old Tom's bag immediately!!
Melvyn, if you disagree, fire away...
If allowed to mark his ball with a 10 pence piece, do you think Old Tom would have put the seam of his feathery down in such a way as to point the direction towards the hole?? ;D ;D
why would Old Tom be marking his ball?
On the green of course...note that I added in 'if allowed to mark his ball' I am aware that in 1865~ players were not allowed to mark balls anywhere on the course. My post was meant as a joke aimed at Shivas and his Cheater Line rants. He got it. :D 8)
-
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.
Examples?
I'll give you a very common AW approach. A poster who never adds anything of any significance in any of his posts contacts a panel member whom he has discovered is a member of an exclusive Long Island club and asks about getting on to play and adds that he's "a Golfweek rater" and that he'll "talk the club up" on gca.com. This sort of stuff goes on all the time. Then there are the threads that ask for any information about "XXX Country Club", with no indication early in the thread or later on in the thread that the poster has an active interest in the architectural bona fides of the place, he's merely waiting for a member or somebody who knows a member who will schedule a round for him while he's "passing through on business". Generally speaking, the AW has nothing to provide "in kind" and does precious little for the site other than to make himself available for an invitation to a private club.
Come on, Judge. You know that doesn't fly.
If so, I'm going to instruct my students that if they are ever in front of Judge Lavin in Chicago and he asks them for some evidence that they can respond with some general, speculative modus operandi and he'll be ok with it.
-
Best thing to come out of this thread: The tweet-ready moniker "AW'!
-
J.C.,
I'm trying to be a bit obtuse, because it is beneath me to name names, but one would have to be extremely obtuse, to the point of being mortally obtunded, to not acknowledge that we have a raft of AW's among us. If you want any more specificity, it ain't gonna come from moi...
-
J.C.,
I'm trying to be a bit obtuse, because it is beneath me to name names, but one would have to be extremely obtuse, to the point of being mortally obtunded, to not acknowledge that we have a raft of AW's among us. If you want any more specificity, it ain't gonna come from moi...
well, ahoy palloi, where did you come from, a scotch ad?
As a lawyer, do you find it beneath you to use logical fallacies when debating?
-
Prattle on, law dog, but you can do so with the knowledge that I'm not talking about you.
-
Prattle on, law dog, but you can do so with the knowledge that I'm not talking about you.
You mean I start the most blatant access request in the history of GCA.com and I can't even make the list of access whores? I'm going to have to try harder next time. ;D
-
Best way to get the look is by making friends who love golf and golf courses, not because you're looking for a handout of a bedpost notch but because you genuinely enjoy same.
Best way to lose friends who love golf and golf courses: blatently asking for access to a Top 100 course
What is wrong with just saying, "No?" I would take it as a compliment if someone asked to play my club. The folks on this
site who consider themselves to be part of an "upper golfing class" because of their disposable income are truly pathetic and
represent everything wrong with our industry. Just shut up and golf for chrissakes.
-
Best way to get the look is by making friends who love golf and golf courses, not because you're looking for a handout of a bedpost notch but because you genuinely enjoy same.
Best way to lose friends who love golf and golf courses: blatently asking for access to a Top 100 course
What is wrong with just saying, "No?" I would take it as a compliment if someone asked to play my club. The folks on this
site who consider themselves to be part of an "upper golfing class" because of their disposable income are truly pathetic and
represent everything wrong with our industry. Just shut up and golf for chrissakes.
I'm a part of an upper golfing class.
Speaking of, when are we going to play Charlotte Golf Links. I've been here 2 weeks now and haven't picked up a stick.
-
J.C.,
I'm trying to be a bit obtuse, because it is beneath me to name names, but one would have to be extremely obtuse, to the point of being mortally obtunded, to not acknowledge that we have a raft of AW's among us. If you want any more specificity, it ain't gonna come from moi...
well, ahoy palloi, where did you come from, a scotch ad?
As a lawyer, do you find it beneath you to use logical fallacies when debating?
Well, ya gotta give Terry props for the use of 'obtunded', gotta be a first on gca? (although not to be too persnickety (I'm no Scottish grammarian afterall!) but I'm not really sure that it's a class A example sentence for the word's coming out ball, as it were)
-
Best way to get the look is by making friends who love golf and golf courses, not because you're looking for a handout of a bedpost notch but because you genuinely enjoy same.
Best way to lose friends who love golf and golf courses: blatently asking for access to a Top 100 course
What is wrong with just saying, "No?" I would take it as a compliment if someone asked to play my club. The folks on this
site who consider themselves to be part of an "upper golfing class" because of their disposable income are truly pathetic and
represent everything wrong with our industry. Just shut up and golf for chrissakes.
Roger,
I certainly don't consider myself part of an upper golfing class and my disposable income ain't what it used to be...Just as there's an etiquette to playing the game, I feel that it's completely innappropriate to ever invite myself to someone's club, even a close friend's. It's tantamount to me calling you up out of the blue and saying, "Hey, I'm going to be in town. Mind if I stop by for a home-cooked meal at your house?". It's called manners my friend, and it has nothing to do with money.....
-
Hey Jud,
People call me up all the a time and invite themselves over to my house for a home-cooked meal--but then my cooking is a whole lot better than my (non-access-whore-seeking) clubs. I guess that makes them HCMWs. Who knew! (and who says one doesn't learn new things on GCA.com everyday!)
-
Skip the topics you don't like, don't agree with or have no interest in. You don't have to get personal or rude about it. It seems simple to me! ;D
-
Skip the topics you don't like, don't agree with or have no interest in. You don't have to get personal or rude about it. It seems simple to me! ;D
This.
-
What is wrong with just saying, "No?" I would take it as a compliment if someone asked to play my club.
I think that sums things up nicely, Roger. And one point I haven't seen mentioned in this thread: Having someone out to your club (regardless of who did the asking) can be good in terms of developing relationships, good in terms of a (hopefully) fun round of golf, and good for the club's bottom line. In this day/age especially, members should be trying to get guests out to their club..daily revenue, guest fees, food/drink, and the off chance that their guest is so impressed they consider the club a viable option for themselves.
-
What is wrong with just saying, "No?" I would take it as a compliment if someone asked to play my club.
I think that sums things up nicely, Roger. And one point I haven't seen mentioned in this thread: Having someone out to your club (regardless of who did the asking) can be good in terms of developing relationships, good in terms of a (hopefully) fun round of golf, and good for the club's bottom line. In this day/age especially, members should be trying to get guests out to their club..daily revenue, guest fees, food/drink, and the off chance that their guest is so impressed they consider the club a viable option for themselves.
Joel,
Will you host me at your club?
-
Joel,
Will you host me at your club?
I would be happy to, schedule permitting.
I've hosted Mac Plumart, Eric Smith, Mark Pritchett, Shane Wright, Kalen Braley and Jed Rammel at various points in SC, Utah and Wisconsin, and all encounters were extremely pleasant....so I'm totally game.
-
FYI...
Joel is a great host. You will have a blast!
-
Thanks, Joel.
For all you fellow AW's out there, transparency can be as effective as clandestine tactics.
-
Perhaps we should re name this site “THE HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN” courtesy of The Animals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmdPQp6Jcdk
Seems very appropriate, but I feel that perhaps the Groups name is far more fitting to describe certain individuals performance when related to fellow members. Clearly the meek will not inherit here nor will the hand of friendship survive for long with the current attitudes.
Melvyn
-
FYI...
Joel is a great host. You will have a blast!
I second this! Joel, I'm enjoying watching this weekend.
-
Roger,
I certainly don't consider myself part of an upper golfing class and my disposable income ain't what it used to be...Just as there's an etiquette to playing the game, I feel that it's completely innappropriate to ever invite myself to someone's club, even a close friend's. It's tantamount to me calling you up out of the blue and saying, "Hey, I'm going to be in town. Mind if I stop by for a home-cooked meal at your house?". It's called manners my friend, and it has nothing to do with money.....
My point is that you shouldn't get offended if someone simply asks. I think you will find most will come with zero expectations and, if the answer is
"no," they will say thanks for your consideration and move on. I always use the high school dance example. If an ugly guy asks a pretty girl to
dance, a nice "no... thanks for asking" is fine. But if she gets upset about it... then she's a bitch. That was my point and one I have made many
times on this site and I am sticking to it.
If you truly love golf and appreciate others who share your love of the game, you should be proud and honored they want to play your club... not
offended.
-
Roger,
I love having guests out at my club, and I think most of my friends will tell you that I'm not exactly a tightwad, in fact my wife will tell you that I'm overly generous in this regard. I just think it's always the members place to do the asking. I ask you out and if you feel so inclined and the opportunity presents itself, you reciprocate in some fashion. I'm not sure where the "rich guys with golf attitude" came from.....
-
I'm not sure where the "rich guys with golf attitude" came from.....
He knows you went to UofM. ;) ;D
-
Just for that you lost the Pine Valley invite.... ;D
-
Roger,
I certainly don't consider myself part of an upper golfing class and my disposable income ain't what it used to be...Just as there's an etiquette to playing the game, I feel that it's completely innappropriate to ever invite myself to someone's club, even a close friend's. It's tantamount to me calling you up out of the blue and saying, "Hey, I'm going to be in town. Mind if I stop by for a home-cooked meal at your house?". It's called manners my friend, and it has nothing to do with money.....
My point is that you shouldn't get offended if someone simply asks. I think you will find most will come with zero expectations and, if the answer is
"no," they will say thanks for your consideration and move on. I always use the high school dance example. If an ugly guy asks a pretty girl to
dance, a nice "no... thanks for asking" is fine. But if she gets upset about it... then she's a bitch. That was my point and one I have made many
times on this site and I am sticking to it.
If you truly love golf and appreciate others who share your love of the game, you should be proud and honored they want to play your club... not
offended.
Roger,
With all due respect this is exactly what I'm talking about. GCA.com should not be used like a "high school dance". I know you use that as a mere analogy but it is spot on. This site, for some, has become a pick up bar. I have a very different view of what it's purpose is. Maybe I am out of line to express how I feel the site should be handled by its members but I certainly don't think it should be used to proposition other users of this site to gain access to their clubs. There are plenty of people on here that are happy to offer the invite to their clubs and I totally support that. If someone offered me to play a club that I would love to play I might jump at the opportunity too. It's the unabashed cold calling that disturbs me. It drives people away and detracts from the site IMO. I know I have pissed some people off but I have also received many PM's supporting what I am saying. i'm not trying to police this, i am simply trying to bring attention to something I feel takes some of the allure away from this site. obviously, there are some that find the possibility of gaining access to high profile clubs as the allure. That, to me, is a shame.
Jeff F.
-
Thanks, Joel.
For all you fellow AW's out there, transparency can be as effective as clandestine tactics.
A.W. - did I ever tell you about my experience at the National? Ask me about it if you ever get out to Cypress when I'm there. (If I'm not there, ask around and wait - I may be driving up from San Diego. But for god's sake, play it cool will ya).
Peter
-
I am an access whore. I use this site to access information, images and opinions on places I otherwise would not have access to. Honestly, with the exception of a select few, I have no idea who is a member at or can provide access to which course(s).
-
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.
Examples?
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44989.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42431.msg955717/#msg955717
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43951.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43973.0/
And all those by the same person; shamefully, one of those threads I thought was ok and even on topic.
And honestly, I hope none of my posts about "Golf courses in XX City" have come off as trying to get any access. That has never been my intention. My sole intention on those threads was to get input on what public courses were the best places to see while I was there.
That's it?
Cripes, you guys have your panties in a bunch over nothing much..
K
-
Roger,
With all due respect this is exactly what I'm talking about. GCA.com should not be used like a "high school dance". I know you use that as a mere analogy but it is spot on. This site, for some, has become a pick up bar. I have a very different view of what it's purpose is. Maybe I am out of line to express how I feel the site should be handled by its members but I certainly don't think it should be used to proposition other users of this site to gain access to their clubs. There are plenty of people on here that are happy to offer the invite to their clubs and I totally support that. If someone offered me to play a club that I would love to play I might jump at the opportunity too. It's the unabashed cold calling that disturbs me. It drives people away and detracts from the site IMO. I know I have pissed some people off but I have also received many PM's supporting what I am saying. i'm not trying to police this, i am simply trying to bring attention to something I feel takes some of the allure away from this site. obviously, there are some that find the possibility of gaining access to high profile clubs as the allure. That, to me, is a shame.
Jeff F.
The real problem is that your thread and what you are saying is completely played out. We hear it at least once a year and it is tired. We are well aware that you and others think the good ol days were the best days. You are welcome to feel that way. I understand you've moved on to greener pastures but there are plenty of people who see real value in GCA.com. My honest, no playing around, advice to you is to quit the site and not worry about what happens here. I assure you that if you email Ran and have him delete your profile you wont receive anymore Riviera requests.
-
The Access Whoring appears to be at an all-time high and it's ridiculously transparent.
Examples?
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44989.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42431.msg955717/#msg955717
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43951.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43973.0/
And all those by the same person; shamefully, one of those threads I thought was ok and even on topic.
And honestly, I hope none of my posts about "Golf courses in XX City" have come off as trying to get any access. That has never been my intention. My sole intention on those threads was to get input on what public courses were the best places to see while I was there.
That's it?
Cripes, you guys have your panties in a bunch over nothing much..
K
I have not given names for a reason. I am not attempting to shed light on individuals for access whoring. I am trying to express my views on the subject itself. My panties are definitely not in a bunch. If anything, people that have a problem with the topic being brought up are the one's with that problem.
JF
-
Roger,
With all due respect this is exactly what I'm talking about. GCA.com should not be used like a "high school dance". I know you use that as a mere analogy but it is spot on. This site, for some, has become a pick up bar. I have a very different view of what it's purpose is. Maybe I am out of line to express how I feel the site should be handled by its members but I certainly don't think it should be used to proposition other users of this site to gain access to their clubs. There are plenty of people on here that are happy to offer the invite to their clubs and I totally support that. If someone offered me to play a club that I would love to play I might jump at the opportunity too. It's the unabashed cold calling that disturbs me. It drives people away and detracts from the site IMO. I know I have pissed some people off but I have also received many PM's supporting what I am saying. i'm not trying to police this, i am simply trying to bring attention to something I feel takes some of the allure away from this site. obviously, there are some that find the possibility of gaining access to high profile clubs as the allure. That, to me, is a shame.
Jeff F.
The real problem is that your thread and what you are saying is completely played out. We hear it at least once a year and it is tired. We are well aware that you and others think the good ol days were the best days. You are welcome to feel that way. I understand you've moved on to greener pastures but there are plenty of people who see real value in GCA.com. My honest, no playing around, advice to you is to quit the site and not worry about what happens here. I assure you that if you email Ran and have him delete your profile you wont receive anymore Riviera requests.
You're entitled to that opinion but I don't think it is played out. I certainly don't want to quit. Why do you have such a huge problem with me bringing this up? Am I shedding light on something that you don't want discussed? Why don't you ignore me if this isn't a big deal to you? I find it rather comical that I am being advised to leave over this. What is so wrong with bringing this topic up? If you disagree, fine. It is obviously not a big deal to you so why are you spending so much time on it?
Jeff F.
-
Jeff,
I told you that you were successful in "outing" me. That is my real axe to grind with you. It has nothing to do with you not contributing anything of substance to this message board in quite some time and then coming on here and talking about all the access whoring that went on 3 years ago when you actually participated with any sort of regularity.
There is room in this world for two golf course architecture message boards, no need to bring up the same things you were complaining about 8 years ago in an attempt to gain supremacy.
-
You know Jeff, if you had started this thread to crticize Acess Whoring it would be one thing. But you ripped the whole DG and said it is dead, USELESS, and that is that really pissed me off. Here is what you wrote:
"Maybe, I am the only one here that feels this way. Maybe some of you think the DG is going strong right now. I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general. Like I said, I still come here often and check out everything but this DG is dysfunctional. Just look at all the great contributors that have left. I know I am kind of rambling but I truly find it sad that this DG has turned into a gossip board that talks more about Tiger Woods than St. Andrews or who's got a bigger brain on the Merion threads. I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played.
Bring back Tommy Naccarato. "
I say you are full of crap. Maybe there are a few AW's here, but they are a TINY minority and I would never let that stop my enjoyment of this site. The are 10 first page threads today that are as good or better than the year 2000. I went back and read them.
(OK, Mcwood, Cirba, TEP, Moriarity are playing nicely in a padded room , but we leave them alone...)
You totally rip something that many of us reallly enjoy: this website, and we are gong to react accordingly. I love this website and you no longer do. MOVE ON
-
I'm not even sure who's at fault, but this thread is making me want to quit (Standing O from the peanut gallery)... :-\
-
I'm not even sure who's at fault, but this thread is making me want to quit (Standing O from the peanut gallery)... :-\
Like your football team will on RichRod in week 7? :P ;D ;D
-
First the Cubs, now this...I'm really a glutton for punishment.... :'( Hey at least I had to spell my name correctly on the SAT test to get in.... 8)
-
You know Jeff, if you had started this thread to crticize Acess Whoring it would be one thing. But you ripped the whole DG and said it is dead, USELESS, and that is that really pissed me off.
I said... "in many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is)"... and I never said it was "USELESS". I am ok with you not sharing my opinion but please don't misquote me. Sorry if you felt like I singled you out to upset you this much. I certainly don't recall mentioning you by name anywhere.
JF
-
You know Jeff, if you had started this thread to crticize Acess Whoring it would be one thing. But you ripped the whole DG and said it is dead, USELESS, and that is that really pissed me off.
I said... "in many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is)"... and I never said it was "USELESS". I am ok with you not sharing my opinion but please don't misquote me. Sorry if you felt like I singled you out to upset you this much. I certainly don't recall mentioning you by name anywhere.
JF
If it is dead then why kick it? Why not walk away?
Your nifty attempt to label anyone who doesn't agree with your posts as an access whore is as transparent as your motivations for starting this thread.
-
First the Cubs, now this...I'm really a glutton for punishment.... :'( Hey at least I had to spell my name correctly on the SAT test to get in.... 8)
The good news is that now when you guys stand around and talk about how you're just as good as the Ivy League schools you can include athletics in the discussion :o
-
You know Jeff, if you had started this thread to crticize Acess Whoring it would be one thing. But you ripped the whole DG and said it is dead, USELESS, and that is that really pissed me off.
I said... "in many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is)"... and I never said it was "USELESS". I am ok with you not sharing my opinion but please don't misquote me. Sorry if you felt like I singled you out to upset you this much. I certainly don't recall mentioning you by name anywhere.
JF
If it is dead then why kick it? Why not walk away?
Your nifty attempt to label anyone who doesn't agree with your posts as an access whore is as transparent as your motivations for starting this thread.
Once again i said in "many ways" it weas dead (TO ME). I did walk away for a while. Kids and work took a part in that but so did the minority of new blood that were out to bag their Top 100 lists. I haven't attempted to label people that disagree with my view as being guilty of access whoring. That is your conclusion. My motivation in starting this thread were the 3 or 4 Tiger Woods threads, the Whip out your top courses played, the numerous threads devoted to ranking courses, etc. etc. Am I not entitled to share that opinion? Why don't you walk away from this thread if it bothers you so much? Don't you see the hypocrisy of your request or advice to me?
JF
-
Perhaps if there were more politics threads you wouldn't be so distracted by the Tiger woods threads.
The rankings and whip it out threads are all have heavy participation from beloved members of the more sophisticated architecture message board.
Why start this thread if you didn't want discussion? Were you hoping you could get a bunch of people to agree with you and then use the list of participants for a recruiting drive?
-
I went to a boxing match and a GCA thread broke out.So this site has much to offer in the future.Am certaintly offended at the implication of a face lick at Cruden Bay could infer that a shark has been jumped.
Anthony
-
Jeff F,
“.........but this DG is dysfunctional.”
I am a newcomer to this site in the last 3 months. I could be thought of was an “access whore” in the sense that I accessed and perved on this site for many months reveling in the cornucopia of ideas and information presented. I was invited to become a member and I am dismayed at the invective that you have introduced into the discussion group. I have found the forum welcoming, informative, amusing and fun. Off Thread subjects are obviously so or are highlighted as such. We can all skip ‘em if we want to. Now I, myself, may be somewhat dysfunctional but I certainly do not think the Discussion Group is in any way dysfunctional. I disagree entirely with your assertion. I rather suspect it mirrors society to a tee. I also think that your particular approach could deter neophytes, such as myself, from asking questions and/or becoming involved in current threads which would be a great shame.
Cheers Colin
-
The self-appointed Judge (Terry) of GCA.com DG has spoken and made his ruling ably assisted by the collector of access whores (what an awful name, guys), the recently released recluse Jeff Foreskin.
Jeff has decided that his whoring days are over, with both he and the less than noble judge placing much of the blame and their frustration on a lone Scot with a lineage as long as anyone else living.
Regard that distasteful expression l thought this site would have embraced requests from others to visit their courses as we are only talking of 1500 potential requests. Of those 1500 worldwide members how many are within easy reach of any said course?
If you or your club do not offer the ‘courtesy of the course’ to golfers from time to time, that’s no problem as long as it made clear to whoever asks. As simple no, am unable or tha’st not the clubs policy, explained in a honest manner can go a long way with fellow Members of this DG.
For some reason or other I find myself with hundreds of offers each year to be the guest of this Club or that. I have arranged on behalf of others the ‘courtesy of a course’, numbers now going into four figures, yet there are times the clubs have had to decline due to one reason or other. My only real regret was not getting Ernie Payne the courtesy of TOC when we celebrated a recent centenary celebration, but hey that life.
I think when it comes down to the DG I am minded of one great President who said “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country” perhaps a similar commitment by Members using DG in place of country may go a long way in trying to understand the diverse mix of peoples we have on this site, although I accept Americans are in the majority. Perhaps for that reason an interjection of ‘winning the hearts and minds’ (a policy that has never really been implemented by your Government since WW2) or at the very least understand the point of views of other Non Americans may go a long way in improving discussions and thus topics.
Then what do I know, yet I am surprised that I have not been accused of being the product of inbreeding over the last 250 years - expect that may yet transpire in future posts.
‘Access Whore’ the term alone is unpleasant and demeans the individual it is directed at, perhaps for no fault of his own apart from being unaware of your clubs/course policy on the matter. Wouldn’t be novel to be in a position to want to help a fellow member, oh well thank God we have some very kind and considerate guys on this site that do that very thing, pity some other can’t bring themselves to follow those examples. What’s that old saying you can take a horse ops sorry mule to water but you can’t make it drink.
May the God(s) of Terry and Jeff try and open up their hearts but please open up their mind first for all our sakes.
Amen
Melvyn
-
You know Jeff, if you had started this thread to crticize Acess Whoring it would be one thing. But you ripped the whole DG and said it is dead, USELESS, and that is that really pissed me off.
I said... "in many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is)"... and I never said it was "USELESS". I am ok with you not sharing my opinion but please don't misquote me. Sorry if you felt like I singled you out to upset you this much. I certainly don't recall mentioning you by name anywhere.
JF
Jeff,
I'll try again to explain to you that you did not upset me because I am an AW. I get mad when thoughtless people go too far in criticizing something I like, something that I am part of, something that I try to help make better. I also prefer people who HELP build, help make things better, rather than WHINEY little people who just complain.
Your rant was so WRONG, and you owe Ran an apology (And a few years of contributions.) I'll help you write it:
Dear Ran,
I am sorry my rant against AWing went too far. I forgot how good your course reviews are and you do a great job with your feature interviews. The CGA outings are superb. I hear the CGA trip to Bandon was oustanding and you did a fantastic job leading the discusssion we had with Tom Doak. Wow, where else can people get this type of gca information?
The DG has some wacky posts, but I realize that there is a lot of great architecture discussion there, as well. I just need to focus on that. This site is still the best place to learn about cga, I realize that. I should NOT have mentioned the website of a fellow CGA poster, that was a dumb mistake, I am sorry.
I realize that access requests happen to EVERY pro at great courses and I should have known how to deal with them. But you know how hard it is for me to say no, and these little AW's make me crazy and then I say things that I regret later. I am sorry, and attached is my check for all the years I forgot to donate.
I am a man, and know when I go too far, I must stop and apologize.
Regrettfully yours,
Jeff
-
Jeff
I have to say I have no idea where you are coming from with the criticism of the GCA discussion group. As someone who is at the beginning of the long road to educating myself on GCA I find all aspects of this site invaluable. The knowledge of the people on this site, in my opinion, cannot be rivalled on any other golf web resource.
This brings me to the second point which is; you do know this is the internet right? Look around, most internet forums resort to mother or Nazi insult in about the time it takes a duck hook to hit the deck. However, here on GCA there seems to be overwhelmingly just extremely helpful people offering well thought out arguments to interesting questions.
Not sure what else you can ask for?
-
I am certainly pleased that my plea greater civility has been answered. Clearly that will not happen today. So, putting aside the issue of civility for a moment, anyone who does not recognize the validity of Terry's observations about the use of this site to gain access is either naive or has chosen to ignore the issue. To be sure, this is not a new problem. From the earliest days of this site there were at least a few participants who aggressively tried to use it to collect courses. But when more of the participants were veterans, it was easier to identify those whose behaviour was out of bounds and to ostracize them. The amount of access seeking both on threads and privately has steadily increased. Candidly, the only way to stop it is for those who are the targets to refuse all unsolicited requests. Guests are to be invited. If the "word" gets out about those who refuse to follow this simple rule, people may wise up and stop using the board for the wrong reasons.
Regarding individuals that one does not appreciate, most of us have no say in who is permitted to post. If an individual is offensive, the best tactic at this point in time is to ignore him. pointedly. Make it clear that he is persona non grata (sorry Jud, I hope this one won't require the dictionary) and that his opinions are not worthy of a response. After awhile, if enough of us ignore him, perhaps he will go away. If he does not, we will continue to ignore him.
-
Shel:
My sense is that Ran anticipated this in setting up the Discussion Board. Somewhere in the archives of GCA, Ran once wrote that a website seeking "frank commentary on golf course architecture" would by necessity need to include members of quite exclusive clubs, because those clubs are home to some of the most notable examples of oustanding and ground-breaking architecture in the game. Ran could presumably solve most if not all of the access issue by eliminating features on the website that allow discussion board members to IM and email each other (GCA is somewhat unusual for a discussion board in that it provides an easy way for members to exchange messages in this manner). Ran has chosen not to do that, and my hunch all along is that Ran not only wanted frank commentary exchanged by members with first-hand experience of great golf architecture, but also saw it as an opportunity -- within the long, friendly and civil traditions of the game itself -- to allow such individuals to invite, if they so choose, discussion board members to their home club who might not otherwise have the opportunity to play those courses.
At its best, this happens quite often on the discussion board -- I'm not sure I ever would've had the chance to play Flossmoor (I'd never even heard much about it ;)) last year with you and others without the involvement -- and generous invitations -- of folks here. Patrick Mucci, Dan Moore, and dozens of others have organized similar GCA outings, and I have yet to hear anyone say those outings are anything but wonderful opportunities to explore, play and discuss golf courses otherwise beyond the reach (access) of many of us. My sense is that Ran thinks this is a good thing -- in some ways, a logical and wonderful extension of the discussion board.
I'm fairly oblivious to the access issue (largely, I think, because I don't have any access to give...), but I'll take you and Terry's word that it's gotten worse. I think your suggestions are wise, as are others on this and other threads decrying the practice of aggressive access-seeking. Yet I can't help but think that Ran's silence on all of this -- now going into its third day, and remaining on the first page of the DBoard -- is somehow telling. Perhaps he's willing to live with the bad (access seeking) in return for having contacts made quite easily on the board, which I'd argue has led to a lot of good.
-
Hopefully this thread will help curtail some of the access issues. Many of the long time biggest offenders are well known in private circles, but the stories do amaze me. I wonder if there is a new set of members that have been doing it because they didn't know any better. Hopefully this will end a lot of that.
-
As long as we can keep getting great contributions like this everything is going to be fine
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/Scotland021-2.jpg?t=1281712772)
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv110/BrandyNikole0107/Scotland073-2.jpg?t=1281712845)
-
Phil;
I am not sure what Ran intended, you'll have to ask him. I agree that the outings in which all are invited are wonderful events. I have been the recipient of invitations from friends and I have hosted many that I have met on the board. The key to all of this is that there are always INVITATIONS, not "requests" for access. When was the last time any of your acquaintances invited himself over to your home for dinner? I am sure that played very well with your significant other. Yet there are those on this board who think nothing of asking for a chance to play someone else's course even if they have little or no relationship with that person. I would wager that Ran did not intend fot that to happen.
-
... I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played.
Bring back Tommy Naccarato.
Jeff F.
Maybe it's people who won't accept others for what they are, but instead have to get in the personal slam in return.
A mistake in fact can be corrected. A difference in opinion can be discussed. However, I don't see the need to slam someone that holds different opinions unless they have done something disrespectful to you. (And, my mother always taught me to even let those go by, but sometimes I'm not a very good son in those cases.)
-
The sad/funny/interesting thing about this whole access issue is that the majority of the people on this board are some of the most generous people when it comes to hosting others. I've received invitations to play courses from people I've never even met, been given guided tours of new golf courses by architects who don't know me from Adam (Clayman that is...) and met and played with some of nicest people on the planet.
And for that I am very grateful.
-
The key to all of this is that there are always INVITATIONS, not "requests" for access. When was the last time any of your acquaintances invited himself over to your home for dinner? I am sure that played very well with your significant other.
Shel, it it my understanding that you prepare a world class rack of lamb. For what it's worth I am a member of the Rack of Lamb Society and have served as a judge at numerous Rack of Lamb cook-off competitions. I would welcome the opportunity come to Chicago to enjoy your fellowship and this fine meal at any date and time this that is convenient to you. I do not in any way wish to impose upon you, your family or your butcher and would insist on paying for the lamb. Please advise if this is a possibility. If this requeset is inappropriate, please forgive my inquiry.
Kindest regards,
Mike
-
Bogey,
Classic. You forgot the subtle, read between the lines, post lamb mediocre review.
-
The self-appointed Judge (Terry) of GCA.com DG has spoken and made his ruling ably assisted by the collector of access whores (what an awful name, guys), the recently released recluse Jeff Foreskin.
I haven't been called "foreskin" since high school. Nice one.
Jeff has decided that his whoring days are over, with both he and the less than noble judge placing much of the blame and their frustration on a lone Scot with a lineage as long as anyone else living.
What "whoring days" of mine are you referring to? I certainly put very little emphasis on you in my original post. Only after you made it about you did I unleash my thoughts about you. I could care less about your lineage. I think Old Tom would think you're a quack. Just my opinion.[/color]
Regard that distasteful expression l thought this site would have embraced requests from others to visit their courses as we are only talking of 1500 potential requests. Of those 1500 worldwide members how many are within easy reach of any said course?
Doesn't matter. Requesting access unsolicited is rude and deters from the relevance of this site, IMO.[/color]
If you or your club do not offer the ‘courtesy of the course’ to golfers from time to time, that’s no problem as long as it made clear to whoever asks. As simple no, am unable or tha’st not the clubs policy, explained in a honest manner can go a long way with fellow Members of this DG.
People shouldn't ask in the first place. They should wait for the invite, IMO. [/color]
For some reason or other I find myself with hundreds of offers each year to be the guest of this Club or that. I have arranged on behalf of others the ‘courtesy of a course’, numbers now going into four figures, yet there are times the clubs have had to decline due to one reason or other. My only real regret was not getting Ernie Payne the courtesy of TOC when we celebrated a recent centenary celebration, but hey that life.
Whether you take up invites is your choice. As for granting access, that's your right to do so. Give yourself a giant pat on the back.[/color]
I think when it comes down to the DG I am minded of one great President who said “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country” perhaps a similar commitment by Members using DG in place of country may go a long way in trying to understand the diverse mix of peoples we have on this site, although I accept Americans are in the majority. Perhaps for that reason an interjection of ‘winning the hearts and minds’ (a policy that has never really been implemented by your Government since WW2) or at the very least understand the point of views of other Non Americans may go a long way in improving discussions and thus topics.
Huh? You lost me here. Are you really comparing WWII to GCA.com?[/color]
Then what do I know, yet I am surprised that I have not been accused of being the product of inbreeding over the last 250 years - expect that may yet transpire in future posts.
You beat me to it. Incest was my next topic with you.[/color]
‘Access Whore’ the term alone is unpleasant and demeans the individual it is directed at, perhaps for no fault of his own apart from being unaware of your clubs/course policy on the matter. Wouldn’t be novel to be in a position to want to help a fellow member, oh well thank God we have some very kind and considerate guys on this site that do that very thing, pity some other can’t bring themselves to follow those examples. What’s that old saying you can take a horse ops sorry mule to water but you can’t make it drink.
I didn't coin the "access whore" term. I am using what others call it. I'm all for people accepting invites to play courses from others on here. I simply think the idea that this place is the Happy Hunting Grounds for people to gain access through unsolicited advances detracts from the site. Once again, just my opinion. If there are people here solely to give access to others then great, by all means take advantage of it.[/color]
May the God(s) of Terry and Jeff try and open up their hearts but please open up their mind first for all our sakes.
For someone so close minded on how the game should be played I find it funny that you ask for God to open our minds. I have granted access to people before and found that each time I did so from an unsolicited advance i generally regretted it. Just my experience though.[/color]
Amen
Melvyn
-
Jeff,
Melvyn loves you and is just kidding you. He really is quite funny if you lighten up.
-
Jeff,
Melvyn loves you and is just kidding you. He really is quite funny if you lighten up.
I find him hilarious. I don't know how much "love" he has for me though. I don't blame him if he hates my guts but someone had to say something, IMO.
JF
-
... but someone had to say something, IMO.
Why?
-
... but someone had to say something, IMO.
Why?
If you need an answer to that question then my response certainly won't resonate.
JF
-
:) perfect response. Have a nice weekend.
-
... but someone had to say something, IMO.
Why?
If you need an answer to that question then my response certainly won't resonate.
JF
Good thing you stepped in to save us. Before this thread, nobody had ever confronted/argued with/engaged Melvyn. At least not in the last 10 days.... ::)
Like I said, your posts and your agenda are transparent and completely unoriginal.
-
... but someone had to say something, IMO.
Why?
If you need an answer to that question then my response certainly won't resonate.
JF
Good thing you stepped in to save us. Before this thread, nobody had ever confronted/argued with/engaged Melvyn. At least not in the last 10 days.... ::)
Like I said, your posts and your agenda are transparent and completely unoriginal.
I disagree.
-
... but someone had to say something, IMO.
Why?
If you need an answer to that question then my response certainly won't resonate.
JF
Good thing you stepped in to save us. Before this thread, nobody had ever confronted/argued with/engaged Melvyn. At least not in the last 10 days.... ::)
Like I said, your posts and your agenda are transparent and completely unoriginal.
I disagree.
Why dont you go to the library and interlibrary loan the most expense golf book ever published.
-
... but someone had to say something, IMO.
Why?
If you need an answer to that question then my response certainly won't resonate.
JF
Good thing you stepped in to save us. Before this thread, nobody had ever confronted/argued with/engaged Melvyn. At least not in the last 10 days.... ::)
Like I said, your posts and your agenda are transparent and completely unoriginal.
I disagree.
Why dont you go to the library and interlibrary loan the most expense golf book ever published.
I'd rather download it to my Kindle.
-
I'd rather download it to my Kindle.
Real men use iPads. No wonder Kalen kicked your butt.
-
I'd rather download it to my Kindle.
Real men use iPads. No wonder Kalen kicked your butt.
Ya, right. Steve Jobs is a real man. :P
-
Melvyn,
I know that Jeff personally attacked you, but do me a favor, let others deal with this guy, ok?
Jeff,
I see you continue to pick on Melvyn. Do me a favor, leave him alone and take a shot at responding to ME. Show us the letter of apology that you need to send to Ran.
You say you have received many private messages supporting your trashing of this website? Post then names!!! Or tell them to show some courage and respond here.
Here is a sampling of the TRIPE you posted:
When I joined, I was thrilled to see that there were other people out there interested in the importance of course architecture. There was a common vibe that we were the few people in the golf world that cared when a great course would get destroyed by a renovation or saw the beauty in an unknown or forgotten about gem that time had left behind.
Give us break, how self-serving can you be...We should bow to one of the chosen few who found this site in 2000?
-
Melvyn,
I know that Jeff personally attacked you, but do me a favor, let others deal with this guy, ok?
Jeff,
I see you continue to pick on Melvyn. Do me a favor, leave him alone and take a shot at respondig to ME. Show us the letter of apology that you need to send to Ran.
You say you have received many private messages supporting your trashing of this website? Post then names!!! Or tllthem o show some courag and respond here.
Here is a sampling of the TRIPE you posted:
When I joined, I was thrilled to see that there were other people out there interested in the importance of course architecture. There was a common vibe that we were the few people in the golf world that cared when a great course would get destroyed by a renovation or saw the beauty in an unknown or forgotten about gem that time had left behind.
Give us break, how self-serving can you be...Ws should bow to oneofe chosn few who foundthis site in 2000?
Why should I post the names of people that sent me private messages? I think the idea of them sending me a "private" message was to keep it private. If they want to chime in I am sure they will. I don't feel any need to persuade people to come to my defense. My comments stand from my original post.
As for the quote you highlighted as "TRIPE", I find nothing self-serving about it. I joined becuase there was a pretty collective view here that resonated with me. Where did I ever say anyone should "bow" to me or others from the early days? This is all on your assumption, as is taking offense personally from my original post which never even mentioned you. I didn't even know who you were until you chose to comment on this thread.
Jeff
-
Because beyond the anti-access whoring, none of these people support the way you slammed the entire website.
They would be so embarrassed that you would bring up another website. They respect Ran too much. They know you screwed up with that line. They know you are too gutless to admit it and take it back. So they remain in private, if they even exist at all, which I doubt.
I feel sad for you, you sound like a whiney little guy who has kept up the same tired criticisms of this website for EIGHT years. You have neither the courage to quit nor the intellectual capacity to stay involved and help make it better.
-
You say you have received many private messages supporting your trashing of this website? Post then names!!! Or tell them to show some courage and respond here.
I haven't sent any pm's ...... but I couldn't agree with the following quote more.
But something happened. Something happened on this DG that I can't really put a finger on. In many ways this DG is dead (at least to me it is). There is still great content in the interviews, the IMO's, the course reviews, but the DG just isn't the same. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. I can't speak for their personal reasons for not being on here but there are some very good people that no longer post on here and that is a shame. Some of these guys contributed so much more than all but a select few that still post and to see them not contribute saddens me.
Bring back Tommy Naccarato.
Jeff F.
-
I have granted access to people before and found that each time I did so from an unsolicited advance i generally regretted it. Just my experience though.[/color]
I have had the exact opposite experience.
I wish people would access whore more. I am there for the taking.
-
I have granted access to people before and found that each time I did so from an unsolicited advance i generally regretted it. Just my experience though.[/color]
I have had the exact opposite experience.
I wish people would access whore more. I am there for the taking.
I'll play your course Mark. Where are you again? ;D
-
Because beyond the anti-access whoring, none of these people support the way you slammed the entire website.
They would be so embarrassed that you would bring up another website. They respect Ran too much. They know you screwed up with that line. They know you are too gutless to admit it and take it back. So they remain in private, if they even exist at all, which I doubt.
I feel sad for you, you sound like a whiney little guy who has kept up the same tired criticisms of this website for EIGHT years. You have neither the courage to quit nor the intellectual capacity to stay involved and help make it better.
I didn't bring up that "other website" by name in my original post. I don't think the two sites are in any competition either. It's not as if you have to choose between the two. If Ran despises the "other website" then show me where he forbids its name to be mentioned. What's wrong with saying I find myself spending more time over there recently?
I never shamed the entire website. You are misrepresenting my words. I only intended to bring attention to something I consider to detract from the site. I named no names in my post and never intended to.
I don't care what you think of me. The only reason I am engaged in conversation with you is becasue you have attacked me personally and feel it necessary to clear up many of your assumptions and mischaracterizations of what I have said. Like I said before, I didn't even know who you were before you jumped in this thread.
Goading me by saying that these PM's don't exist isn't going to get me to divulge names. I'm not slimy enough to involve people by name that sent me a "private" message. If they want to get involved, they will.
I don't plan on quitting anytime soon, so I guess I have no courage in your eyes and I must have tons of intellect because my original post was to try to make this place better.
Jeff
-
Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. (I also miss being 17 and wrestling with my girlfriend in the back of my car...) How do you feel about this quote?
I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.
-
I'll play your course Mark. Where are you again? ;D
Distance is so easily conquered these days, John... :D
And my club has two courses, so that makes you an access pimp. ;D
-
I'll play your course Mark. Where are you again? ;D
Distance is so easily conquered these days, John... :D
And my club has two courses, so that makes you an access pimp. ;D
I think you would be the pimp, the course the W we intend to 'play' and I am the perp. of the crime, the 'john'... :o :O
-
Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?
I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.
Bill,
I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years. I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more. It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.
-
Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?
I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.
Bill,
I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years. I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more. It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.
If the site is so bad then why do all the guys from "The Other Site" always know what is going on here?
Anthony
-
Jeff,
I think you should recognize that all the angst against you here is because this is your only contribution to the site in a while...even on the other site, you need to make an effort to earn the right to bitch.
-
Jeff,
I think you should recognize that all the angst against you here is because this is your only contribution to the site in a while...even on the other site, you need to make an effort to earn the right to bitch.
Fair enough but that doesn't make my points false.
I'm working on a pictoral. As soon as I can find the pictures and scan them I will be posting it.
JF
-
Jeff,
I think everyone will admit that your main points are, in fact, a problem...but they don't know you so they think you're an outsider telling them their house look like shit.
Post the pictorial and all will be forgiven, then we'll work on the main problems.
We haven't met, but we will.
-
Jeff,
I think everyone will admit that your main points are, in fact, a problem...but they don't know you so they think you're an outsider telling them their house look like shit.
Post the pictorial and all will be forgiven, then we'll work on the main problems.
We haven't met, but we will.
It'll be in the same vein as this...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.msg289255/
Looks like some of the pictures went missing. Gotta track those down.
Jeff
-
Joel,
Will you host me at your club?
I would be happy to, schedule permitting.
I've hosted Mac Plumart, Eric Smith, Mark Pritchett, Shane Wright, Kalen Braley and Jed Rammel at various points in SC, Utah and Wisconsin, and all encounters were extremely pleasant....so I'm totally game.
You should at least have purchased one of Joel's books to qualify! ;D
-
Jeff,
I think everyone will admit that your main points are, in fact, a problem...but they don't know you so they think you're an outsider telling them their house look like shit.
Post the pictorial and all will be forgiven, then we'll work on the main problems.
We haven't met, but we will.
It'll be in the same vein as this...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.msg289255/
Looks like some of the pictures went missing. Gotta track those down.
Jeff
Jeff,
I don't know, quickly scanning through the first page of responses to your initial post there on #10 Riviera, you know how to post conversation-generating threads...I say that because mine generally get swallowed up to page 2 in no time...
I joined as you were slowing down about 5 years ago...and no doubt, things have changed but only because it's bigger now. More people. To me, that means more of everything, good threads and bad threads. Look for the good stuff if you want, but don't if you don't...
-
Jeff,
I think everyone will admit that your main points are, in fact, a problem...but they don't know you so they think you're an outsider telling them their house look like shit.
Post the pictorial and all will be forgiven, then we'll work on the main problems.
We haven't met, but we will.
It'll be in the same vein as this...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.msg289255/
Looks like some of the pictures went missing. Gotta track those down.
Jeff
Jeff,
I don't know, quickly scanning through the first page of responses to your initial post there on #10 Riviera, you know how to post conversation-generating threads...I say that because mine generally get swallowed up to page 2 in no time...
I joined as you were slowing down about 5 years ago...and no doubt, things have changed but only because it's bigger now. More people. To me, that means more of everything, good threads and bad threads. Look for the good stuff if you want, but don't if you don't...
My favorite response is reply #3. Classic. If I remember correctly it was an innocent question from someone in the U.K. but classic considering the content of the thread we are chatting on now.
Jeff F.
-
The whole AW thing has me a bit puzzled. I can see not doing it coming from this site/DG, as that may very well not be appropo. BUT, when the PGA was in Mpls. last year, I wanted to play Interlachen. I contacted the Pro there and he said "sure, you can play for $375 each." That's a bit too much for me, and my friends. So, I started to see if I had any contacts that knew someone that knew someone who was a member? Was that so wrong? Fortunately, a businessman in my town had a brother who is a member there. He was kind enough to give me the number of his brother, put in a heads up call for me, and let me know that his brother was a busy Dr., but he'd call me back. I made several calls, talked about some mutual connections, and asked if he minded hosting us. He said he would be delighted to, as he loved sharing the course with others.
I was thrilled as it was my first Ross and with him it only cost $150. Now, was that so wrong? If he'd said no, I would have understood. If you are a member at a prestigious private, would it not be enjoyable to host people from time to time? I know, the difference is you are asking as opposed to being asked, and I can see if you are in Jeff's postition as an employee at a club and get constantly bombarded, but still, is it hard to just say NO. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'll forever be greatful to the Interlachen member, and I think he really enjoyed the day as well. What more can you ask for. TW, AW (I guess).
-
Tony,
WHY did you go back and edit the "busty Dr." line. I nearly wet myself ;D...I know, my maturity level is lacking...
-
Jeff, please do not take this as an attack on you or your position with respect to access seekers. But I have an honest question. How do you feel about professional courtesy extended to pros, assistants, supers, GMs, etc. to play at clubs other than their place of employment? Aren't those typically unsolicited requests for access, only from someone within the "industry"? While I am not condoning blatant access whoring, I have a hard time getting worked up over what goes on here when it seems like the equivalent behavior occurs within the industry. Again, I'm not trying to goad you. Rather just trying reconcile what I perceive as a bit of a contradiction.
-
I think you would be the pimp, the course the W we intend to 'play' and I am the perp. of the crime, the 'john'... :o :O
John,
Of course. My stupid. All this talk of whores had me a bit quick on the trigger...
My favorite response is reply #3. Classic. If I remember correctly it was an innocent question from someone in the U.K. but classic considering the content of the thread we are chatting on now.
There are a hell of a lot worse things in life you could do than share some time with Philip Gawith (and his wife). Anyone would consider themselves fortunate to have met them.
A truly excellent bloke (and sheila).
He was kind enough to give me the number of his brother, put in a heads up call for me, and let me know that his brother was a busy Dr., but he'd call me back. I made several calls, talked about some mutual connections, and asked if he minded hosting us. He said he would be delighted to, as he loved sharing the course with others.
Tony,
Can you give me the doctor's name, please, just in case I find myself in Minnesota next year and in need of medical attention... ;)
-
Tony,
WHY did you go back and edit the "busty Dr." line. I nearly wet myself ;D...I know, my maturity level is lacking...
Matthew, I didn't want him to "stick out" too much. ;D
-
Jeff, please do not take this as an attack on you or your position with respect to access seekers. But I have an honest question. How do you feel about professional courtesy extended to pros, assistants, supers, GMs, etc. to play at clubs other than their place of employment? Aren't those typically unsolicited requests for access, only from someone within the "industry"? While I am not condoning blatant access whoring, I have a hard time getting worked up over what goes on here when it seems like the equivalent behavior occurs within the industry. Again, I'm not trying to goad you. Rather just trying reconcile what I perceive as a bit of a contradiction.
Very good question, Ed. I am interested to hear Jeff's answer.
-
Jeff, please do not take this as an attack on you or your position with respect to access seekers. But I have an honest question. How do you feel about professional courtesy extended to pros, assistants, supers, GMs, etc. to play at clubs other than their place of employment? Aren't those typically unsolicited requests for access, only from someone within the "industry"? While I am not condoning blatant access whoring, I have a hard time getting worked up over what goes on here when it seems like the equivalent behavior occurs within the industry. Again, I'm not trying to goad you. Rather just trying reconcile what I perceive as a bit of a contradiction.
Fair question but the answer is pretty simple. One is a professional courtesy given between members of an industry, the other is a website dedicated to the "discourse" of course architecture.
I am no longer a golf professional. Matter of fact, I now have my amateur status back. I doubt one would become a golf professional just to gain access to other golf clubs. Sure, it is a perk, but it is probably not the motive behind one's reasoning to dedicate their professional life to an industry. GCA.com is supposed to be a website of avid golfers interested in course architecture. This website wasn't created to be a pick-up bar for people to go around asking for unsolicited access to another member's club. It is also a perk that most members here will gain access to clubs through INVITES. I have NO problem with that.
People need to focus on what I am saying. I am not denouncing the acceptance of an invite to another member's club. Matter of fact, I support and encourage people to take those opportunities. I simply don't think this should be viewed as some Holy Grail of internet access to cold call people about playing their course to tie another knot in their Top 100 belt.
If you can't see the difference between professional courtesy in an industry from peers to making unsolicited advances to people you may or may not know on an internet site, then I really don't think I could explain it in any way that will make sense to you. Hope that answers the question.
Jeff F.
-
Jeff, word of advice:
This is a clear and cogent argument that is persuasive and compelling:
Fair question but the answer is pretty simple. One is a professional courtesy given between members of an industry, the other is a website dedicated to the "discourse" of course architecture.
I am no longer a golf professional. Matter of fact, I now have my amateur status back. I doubt one would become a golf professional just to gain access to other golf clubs. Sure, it is a perk, but it is probably not the motive behind one's reasoning to dedicate their professional life to an industry. GCA.com is supposed to be a website of avid golfers interested in course architecture. This website wasn't created to be a pick-up bar for people to go around asking for unsolicited access to another member's club. It is also a perk that most members here will gain access to clubs through INVITES. I have NO problem with that.
People need to focus on what I am saying. I am not denouncing the acceptance of an invite to another member's club. Matter of fact, I support and encourage people to take those opportunities. I simply don't think this should be viewed as some Holy Grail of internet access to cold call people about playing their course to tie another knot in their Top 100 belt.
This statement completely undermines the above argument:
If you can't see the difference between professional courtesy in an industry from peers to making unsolicited advances to people you may or may not know on an internet site, then I really don't think I could explain it in any way that will make sense to you.
If you actually care about this site (which I'm not sure you do) and you are concerned with the quality of the "discourse," then I suggest you stop your posts before you hit the "if you don't agree with me you are an idiot" portion.
Thanks
-
First off. Let me say that our club system is for the most part completely different from the picture you paint of your private American Clubs. Your club system (correct me please if I am wrong) is based upon money and old money families who like to protect their privacy from all comers. So it’s not really a question of approaching the Club Secretary, The Pro or Green Keeper, as they (I presume) are just employees in the eyes of the Committee (who are made up from The Members). Seems to remind one of a well-known club in St Andrews, who play TOC, alas it’s a public course though, nevertheless, it goes some way to keeping their feet on the ground but their heads still aspire for the rare air up in the clouds. Ops I digress, thinking that one day I might join this elite group (wild horses, a peerage even being able to beat Tiger would not make me want to be a Member, sorry guys I may be a traditionalist but I am not an elitist – I leave that to others who tell me they know better).
Sorry back to the topic in hand, although elitist does seem to have a serious bearing on this discussion, when noting the American Club scene (as I said correct me if I am wrong). This is where at times I find it difficult to understand, it seems that if you want to play at these private clubs you can but by paying a big Green Fee (imposed to keep the rabble away from the course, as I presume these Green Fees hardly contribute to the annual maintenance cost as so few in number). Clearly a policy to welcome other financially well-endowed visitors but not the general population at large. Most if not all American Golfers are aware of these clubs fortification, yet they still yearn to play these courses.
My take on this matter for anyone interested would be to first pay the fee and enjoy the once in a life time experience. Alternative show interest to a friend that you would welcome the opportunity to play, in the hope that he might be able to arrange a game for you at Guest rates. However reading what Tony W went through to play the course is IMHO rather excessive to the point of being unfriendly and taking advantage of the good nature of others for one’s own ends.
Tony, if this is what Jeff is referring to then I must support him on this subject. This type of behaviour is not worthy of a golfer and puts you firmly in the player category. For the sake of your own pleasure you have forced others to do you bidding, which they seem to have do. Tthey not you have acted as Gentlemen throughout. You seem to have no shame, happily convey the epic story of how you played a private course. I do not like the expression AW but Tony you appear to deserve the title.
There is nothing wrong in asking a friend but to solicit a game in the manner you prescribe is not acceptable IMO. I can now understand why others on this site are uneasy with players who conduct themselves in this fashion. Once bitten by this sting I too would steer clear of anyone I suspected of conducting themselves in this manner.
Why are these people members of very expensive private clubs. The clue may be in the word private, expensive and high green fees. I agree that perhaps on these courses the Grass is always green, but then all you have to do is play fair and pay the Green Fee to encounter the experience.
To all those who host GCA.com members, you are indeed owed a big thank you for your kindness and generosity of mind and spirit, yet those who unfairly solicit access could so easily kill that kind generosity and ruin the pleasure for others.
If I have misunderstood you post Tony then I apologise to you. If true, then I do not think that it is something to be proud of, just my opinion.
Melvyn
-
The whole AW thing has me a bit puzzled. I can see not doing it coming from this site/DG, as that may very well not be appropo. BUT, when the PGA was in Mpls. last year, I wanted to play Interlachen. I contacted the Pro there and he said "sure, you can play for $375 each." That's a bit too much for me, and my friends. So, I started to see if I had any contacts that knew someone that knew someone who was a member? Was that so wrong? Fortunately, a businessman in my town had a brother who is a member there. He was kind enough to give me the number of his brother, put in a heads up call for me, and let me know that his brother was a busy Dr., but he'd call me back. I made several calls, talked about some mutual connections, and asked if he minded hosting us. He said he would be delighted to, as he loved sharing the course with others.
I was thrilled as it was my first Ross and with him it only cost $150. Now, was that so wrong? If he'd said no, I would have understood. If you are a member at a prestigious private, would it not be enjoyable to host people from time to time? I know, the difference is you are asking as opposed to being asked, and I can see if you are in Jeff's postition as an employee at a club and get constantly bombarded, but still, is it hard to just say NO. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'll forever be greatful to the Interlachen member, and I think he really enjoyed the day as well. What more can you ask for. TW, AW (I guess).
Tony,
How you choose to gain access to a club outside of gca is not what I am talking about. If you have contacts that can help you get out somewhere, great. I simply have a problem with people using this website as a rolodex of people they feel entitled to cold call for access to their club. If people are open to cold calls they will let it be known and then feel free to take advantage of their hospitality all you want.
It's not the idea of people getting to play great courses that bugs me, it's the idea that this website is here as a tool for making unsolicited requests to gain access that detracts from the health of the DG, IMO. What one does to gain access outside of this DG I could care less about.
Jeff F.
-
Jeff, word of advice:
This is a clear and cogent argument that is persuasive and compelling:
Fair question but the answer is pretty simple. One is a professional courtesy given between members of an industry, the other is a website dedicated to the "discourse" of course architecture.
I am no longer a golf professional. Matter of fact, I now have my amateur status back. I doubt one would become a golf professional just to gain access to other golf clubs. Sure, it is a perk, but it is probably not the motive behind one's reasoning to dedicate their professional life to an industry. GCA.com is supposed to be a website of avid golfers interested in course architecture. This website wasn't created to be a pick-up bar for people to go around asking for unsolicited access to another member's club. It is also a perk that most members here will gain access to clubs through INVITES. I have NO problem with that.
People need to focus on what I am saying. I am not denouncing the acceptance of an invite to another member's club. Matter of fact, I support and encourage people to take those opportunities. I simply don't think this should be viewed as some Holy Grail of internet access to cold call people about playing their course to tie another knot in their Top 100 belt.
This statement completely undermines the above argument:
If you can't see the difference between professional courtesy in an industry from peers to making unsolicited advances to people you may or may not know on an internet site, then I really don't think I could explain it in any way that will make sense to you.
If you actually care about this site (which I'm not sure you do) and you are concerned with the quality of the "discourse," then I suggest you stop your posts before you hit the "if you don't agree with me you are an idiot" portion.
Thanks
Point taken but I didn't write that part to be read like that. I was simply trying to say that if you need further explanation as to the difference then I don't know if you will ever get it. Once again, I am using the word "you" in general terms.
Jeff F.
-
Melvyn, I think you are reading too much into Tony's pursuit. He didn't do anything nefarious as I read it, he simply asked a few friends for help. Friends help friends, without thinking the worst of them, and I think that's where things tend to get confusing on here.
I can't imagine that any American (due to our system) hasn't occasionally come across a course they wanted to play and didn't know anyone and didn't think of trying the same thing. That's not access whoring to me, that's simply being passionate and curious. Of course there is a good way and bad way to go about it, but I think many of those who are complaining already have access, so they don't see what it's like for those on the outside.
But I will say, no one's buggin' me for help to get on my local muni... :)
-----
Jeff, I will simply say that, aside from the repeated insulting broad sweeping generalizations, the thing I disagree most with you on is why you feel it's up to you to point out things everyone can see for himself. We're all big boys here, let each make his own decisions with regard to others' motivations and behaviors.
-
Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?
I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.
Bill,
I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years. I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more. It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.
Yes, look at all of these on-topic architecture threads from the good ole' days in 2003:
Review of Feinstein's new book, "Open"
Tiger's quote on non-conforming drivers
Northeast Amateur
"Addicted Member"
Celebrities on the course
Public Service Announcement: How the West Was Won (about a new Led Zeppelin CD)
why I love/hate Johnny Miller
Paddy Hanmer (Muirfield club secretary)
Golf flying under the radar this year. Why?
LARGEST Locker Room in Golf
U.S. Ladies Open qualifier, Big Wiesy in the hizzy
Good for John Riegger (about Sorenstam playing at Colonial)
Handicaps and other musings
Buggies
"Due Process" article in Golf Magazine June 2003 (about pairings for golf tournaments)
-
Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?
I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.
Bill,
I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years. I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more. It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.
Yes, look at all of these on-topic architecture threads from the good ole' days in 2003:
Review of Feinstein's new book, "Open"
Tiger's quote on non-conforming drivers
Northeast Amateur
"Addicted Member"
Celebrities on the course
Public Service Announcement: How the West Was Won (about a new Led Zeppelin CD)
why I love/hate Johnny Miller
Paddy Hanmer (Muirfield club secretary)
Golf flying under the radar this year. Why?
LARGEST Locker Room in Golf
U.S. Ladies Open qualifier, Big Wiesy in the hizzy
Good for John Riegger (about Sorenstam playing at Colonial)
Handicaps and other musings
Buggies
"Due Process" article in Golf Magazine June 2003 (about pairings for golf tournaments)
No one is claiming that OT topics didn't exist, but there were fewer. I'm not even trying to kill the idea of having OT topics. I post or have posted on them too. It's just more rampant than before. As is the access issue.
Jeff F.
-
Jeff, please do not take this as an attack on you or your position with respect to access seekers. But I have an honest question. How do you feel about professional courtesy extended to pros, assistants, supers, GMs, etc. to play at clubs other than their place of employment? Aren't those typically unsolicited requests for access, only from someone within the "industry"? While I am not condoning blatant access whoring, I have a hard time getting worked up over what goes on here when it seems like the equivalent behavior occurs within the industry. Again, I'm not trying to goad you. Rather just trying reconcile what I perceive as a bit of a contradiction.
Fair question but the answer is pretty simple. One is a professional courtesy given between members of an industry, the other is a website dedicated to the "discourse" of course architecture.
I am no longer a golf professional. Matter of fact, I now have my amateur status back. I doubt one would become a golf professional just to gain access to other golf clubs. Sure, it is a perk, but it is probably not the motive behind one's reasoning to dedicate their professional life to an industry. GCA.com is supposed to be a website of avid golfers interested in course architecture. This website wasn't created to be a pick-up bar for people to go around asking for unsolicited access to another member's club. It is also a perk that most members here will gain access to clubs through INVITES. I have NO problem with that.
People need to focus on what I am saying. I am not denouncing the acceptance of an invite to another member's club. Matter of fact, I support and encourage people to take those opportunities. I simply don't think this should be viewed as some Holy Grail of internet access to cold call people about playing their course to tie another knot in their Top 100 belt.
If you can't see the difference between professional courtesy in an industry from peers to making unsolicited advances to people you may or may not know on an internet site, then I really don't think I could explain it in any way that will make sense to you. Hope that answers the question.
Jeff F.
Jeff, I understand the difference...but I will admit that I am struggling a bit with the outrage. At the end of the day, a pro who calls up another pro and says "Hey, I am going to be in town next Thursday and would love to play ZZZ Club" is doing pretty much the same thing as a guy from this website who sends a PM to someone else on this website and says "Hey, I am going to be in town next Thursday and would love to play ZZZ Club". The motivations of both are essentially the same: to get access to a private place. The only difference I see is that the former is accepted withing the industry while the latter is not. So I have a hard time being offended by one and not the other (and I am not saying I am offended by either). Now, I agree with you that the pro almost certainly did not become a pro solely for the purpose of gaining access to nice private clubs. Similarly, I don't know anyone who has joined this site solely for the purpose of gaining access. But in any walk of life you will inevitably have people that occasionally abuse the system. So I am williing to bet that there are a few individual pros out there that abuse the professional courtesy system just as there are no doubt a few guys here who use this site for access. However, in my view, both are relative outliers in the scheme of things.
-
George
Then its seems I owe Tony an apology, so
Tony, before saying sorry, I will say that you certainly seemed to have done a lot of networking to find a Member, but clearly I am wrong, so please accept my unconditional apology for linking you with what is termed AW – clearly you are not and indeed a golfer.
If one is wrong there is no shame in admitting it, at least I had the balls to name the individual so that I could apologise to him.
Melvyn
-
Jeff, I understand the difference...but I will admit that I am struggling a bit with the outrage. At the end of the day, a pro who calls up another pro and says "Hey, I am going to be in town next Thursday and would love to play ZZZ Club" is doing pretty much the same thing as a guy from this website who sends a PM to someone else on this website and says "Hey, I am going to be in town next Thursday and would love to play ZZZ Club". The motivations of both are essentially the same: to get access to a private place. The only difference I see is that the former is accepted withing the industry while the latter is not. So I have a hard time being offended by one and not the other (and I am not saying I am offended by either).
You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I completely disagree. A courtesy extended to a professional peer, that is given because one dedicates their professional life to better the sport/business of golf, is much different than simply logging on to a website and lobbing requests to people unsolicited. That's just my opinion.
Jeff F.
-
...
But I will say, no one's buggin' me for help to get on my local muni... :)
...
George,
If I ever get the Pittsburgh, you can be sure I will be bugging you to host me at your course!
-
Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?
I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.
Bill,
I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years. I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more. It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.
Yes, look at all of these on-topic architecture threads from the good ole' days in 2003:
Review of Feinstein's new book, "Open"
Tiger's quote on non-conforming drivers
Northeast Amateur
"Addicted Member"
Celebrities on the course
Public Service Announcement: How the West Was Won (about a new Led Zeppelin CD)
why I love/hate Johnny Miller
Paddy Hanmer (Muirfield club secretary)
Golf flying under the radar this year. Why?
LARGEST Locker Room in Golf
U.S. Ladies Open qualifier, Big Wiesy in the hizzy
Good for John Riegger (about Sorenstam playing at Colonial)
Handicaps and other musings
Buggies
"Due Process" article in Golf Magazine June 2003 (about pairings for golf tournaments)
No one is claiming that OT topics didn't exist, but there were fewer. I'm not even trying to kill the idea of having OT topics. I post or have posted on them too. It's just more rampant than before. As is the access issue.
Jeff F.
Yes, all kinds of OT topics cluttering up the first page of the DB devoted to golf architecture right now; let's see:
Are there any other holes that can be called Template holes...
2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread (with many posts discussing the architecture there)
Desmond Tolhurst's account (another Merion thread, about its architectural roots)
Shouldn't Road Hole templates all be par 4's?
Flora in bunkers
"Have you heard anything about this new course in Nebraska...." (dealing with architectural attributes of a course in a remote location)
Very interesting article on course setups for a major
Henry Stambaugh Municipal Golf Course - Youngstown, Ohio 1920's era (photo thread)
Black Wolf Run (Original Championship Course) vs. Whistling Straits?
So just how good is the Straits from an architectural perspective
Moundbuilders - Newark, OH
Rock Creek photo tour - all 18 holes
USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC (about the architecture and restoration of the course)
Augusta National: The Most Cleverly Bunkered Course in Dr Mac's Portfolio?
The Dormie Club - Routing
Pa Open at Applebrook (about a Gil Hanse--designed course)
Architects - Challenge my directional control, my distance control not so much
First 9 is a Ross, Second 9 is a Bendelow then all a Tillie? - Wanango CC (PA) (photo thread)
The Sagebrush Experience (some very good photos of golf holes)
Golf Trip to the USA...The Favourites Holes Lists
-
Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?
I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.
Bill,
I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years. I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more. It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.
Yes, look at all of these on-topic architecture threads from the good ole' days in 2003:
Review of Feinstein's new book, "Open"
Tiger's quote on non-conforming drivers
Northeast Amateur
"Addicted Member"
Celebrities on the course
Public Service Announcement: How the West Was Won (about a new Led Zeppelin CD)
why I love/hate Johnny Miller
Paddy Hanmer (Muirfield club secretary)
Golf flying under the radar this year. Why?
LARGEST Locker Room in Golf
U.S. Ladies Open qualifier, Big Wiesy in the hizzy
Good for John Riegger (about Sorenstam playing at Colonial)
Handicaps and other musings
Buggies
"Due Process" article in Golf Magazine June 2003 (about pairings for golf tournaments)
No one is claiming that OT topics didn't exist, but there were fewer. I'm not even trying to kill the idea of having OT topics. I post or have posted on them too. It's just more rampant than before. As is the access issue.
Jeff F.
Yes, all kinds of OT topics cluttering up the first page of the DB devoted to golf architecture right now; let's see:
Are there any other holes that can be called Template holes...
2010 PGA at Whistling Straits discussion thread (with many posts discussing the architecture there)
Desmond Tolhurst's account (another Merion thread, about its architectural roots)
Shouldn't Road Hole templates all be par 4's?
Flora in bunkers
"Have you heard anything about this new course in Nebraska...." (dealing with architectural attributes of a course in a remote location)
Very interesting article on course setups for a major
Henry Stambaugh Municipal Golf Course - Youngstown, Ohio 1920's era (photo thread)
Black Wolf Run (Original Championship Course) vs. Whistling Straits?
So just how good is the Straits from an architectural perspective
Moundbuilders - Newark, OH
Rock Creek photo tour - all 18 holes
USGA Women's Amateur at Charlotte CC (about the architecture and restoration of the course)
Augusta National: The Most Cleverly Bunkered Course in Dr Mac's Portfolio?
The Dormie Club - Routing
Pa Open at Applebrook (about a Gil Hanse--designed course)
Architects - Challenge my directional control, my distance control not so much
First 9 is a Ross, Second 9 is a Bendelow then all a Tillie? - Wanango CC (PA) (photo thread)
The Sagebrush Experience (some very good photos of golf holes)
Golf Trip to the USA...The Favourites Holes Lists
Cherry picking one moment, of one day, out of an entire host of possibilities, is easy to do. When I posted this thread there were three OT-Tiger Woods threads and two or three thread about what courses each of us have played. I've been lurking for months and it has been quite frequent to find the front page of the board filled with topics unrelated to course architcture. Like I have said, I don't mind the OT topics and engage in them myself. I just don't think they should dominate the forum. Right now, today, they aren't and I applaud that.
Jeff
-
Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?
I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.
Bill,
I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years.
I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more.
It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.
AGREED
-
You know, the issue Patrick agrees with could be solved pretty easily - just have Ran's boys create another DG category here. Another site I visit, dbstalk.com has one section set up just for OT topics, and they move theads over to it if necessary.
-
Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?
I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.
Bill,
I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years.
I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more.
It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.
AGREED
Of course, Patrick spent several pages arguing with Shivas about cheater lines, ostensibly on the notion that cheater lines thwart green contouring, the largest stretch of comparing an OT topic to golf architecture in the history of GCA. ;D
-
You know, the issue Patrick agrees with could be solved pretty easily - just have Ran's boys create another DG category here. Another site I visit, dbstalk.com has one section set up just for OT topics, and they move theads over to it if necessary.
It could also be solved if those wanting to gossip endlessly about Tiger would start their own damn website.
Maybe call it AccessTiger.com, and take away two big problems at once.
-
I am stiill confused by the access issue. First, is it really rampant behaviour on this site? Second, if so, why are we being lectured on it when presumably those in the know are aware of the guilty parties and can thus direct their comments toward those folks in a private manner?
So far as cold calling for access, I don't see how folks can get terribly uptight either way. We all have our standards and many issues are really more a matter of conforming to those standards. On an issue like this I can't see how one standard is right and another wrong - they are merely different so in the end we are forced to agree to disagree - not a bad result really.
Ciao
-
Donnie, I miss many of the old guys too. How do you feel about this quote?
I can tell you, that I spend a lot more time at a site created by an ex-member here that fits my needs and wants out of discussing course architecture and golf in general.
Bill,
I can see where Jeff is coming from. Unfortunately I have to agree that this site has changed for the worse over the years.
I still enjoy it and visit daily but it isn't the same. I find myself lurking in the background more and more.
It is really disheartening when you spend time to write something of substance only to see it disappear under a sea of OT and Tiger posts.
AGREED
Of course, Patrick spent several pages arguing with Shivas about cheater lines,
ostensibly on the notion that cheater lines thwart green contouring,
the largest stretch of comparing an OT topic to golf architecture in the history of GCA. ;D
Phil, your confused.
And, you have me confused with someone else.
Shivas and I are in perfect harmony on the cheater line.
Please correct your post to reflect the name/s of those arguing with Shivas..
Thanks
-
Patrick:
I stand corrected; more precisely, I should've said you spent pages arguing alongside (instead of "with") Shivas, about the use of cheater lines, which if I remember correctly, you disdain (as do I, by the way...).
-
I am stiill confused by the access issue. First, is it really rampant behaviour on this site?
Yes, just ask TEPaul, myself and others.
Second, if so, why are we being lectured on it when presumably those in the know are aware of the guilty parties and can thus direct their comments toward those folks in a private manner?
Because TEPaul, myself and others don't want to waste our time.
And, what makes you think our comments will change their behavior ?
So far as cold calling for access, I don't see how folks can get terribly uptight either way.
Then your brain isn't functioning.
Didn't you read what Jeff F had to say about being beseiged with requests for access.
How would you like to be constantly bombarded with access requests ?
We all have our standards and many issues are really more a matter of conforming to those standards.
On an issue like this I can't see how one standard is right and another wrong - they are merely different so in the end we are forced to agree to disagree - not a bad result really.
Sean, if you don't understand the dilema it's because you're choosing not to understand the dilema.
How could you not understand it after reading Jeff's posts is mind boggling.
-
can someone explain what "jumped the shark" means? :-\
There was an episode of Happy Days where Fonzie, waterskiing, jumped over a shark. It was roundly viewed as the point where the series was on a downward spiral and was destined to never be as good ever again.
Some people focus on the "doing something zany and ridiculous to get attention" side of the scenario when they say "that was the point where such and such jumped the shark", others just mean "that's the point where it all went to shit".
Why is everybody argueing when its all Fonzie's fault?
Anthony
-
I am stiill confused by the access issue. First, is it really rampant behaviour on this site?
Yes, just ask TEPaul, myself and others.
Second, if so, why are we being lectured on it when presumably those in the know are aware of the guilty parties and can thus direct their comments toward those folks in a private manner?
Because TEPaul, myself and others don't want to waste our time.
And, what makes you think our comments will change their behavior ?
So far as cold calling for access, I don't see how folks can get terribly uptight either way.
Then your brain isn't functioning.
Didn't you read what Jeff F had to say about being beseiged with requests for access.
How would you like to be constantly bombarded with access requests ?
We all have our standards and many issues are really more a matter of conforming to those standards.
On an issue like this I can't see how one standard is right and another wrong - they are merely different so in the end we are forced to agree to disagree - not a bad result really.
Sean, if you don't understand the dilema it's because you're choosing not to understand the dilema.
How could you not understand it after reading Jeff's posts is mind boggling.
Pat
I am confused that someone feels it isn't a waste of time to lecture the Tree House about access issues but it is a waste of time to confront the "guilty" parties. I am also confused as to how rampant this behaviour is. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling we are talking about a handful or two of people when I don't know how many hundreds have rolled through the Tree House. It may be a problem for a very small group on here, but where I come from, when you have a problem with someone you talk to that someone. Afterall, what does Joe Blow's behaviour have to do with me and hundreds of other people here? Being lectured to because of someone eles's behaviour is about as off topic as it gets besides being rather annoying. It is especially irksome when you (yet again and to form) add pointlless, misguided insults, compounding the problem because they are directed at the wrong person unless you for some (mistaken I might add) reason believe I have asked any access favours (or any other sort for that matter) of you.
Ciao
-
Sean,
I have to side with Pat here. It's simply a matter of etiquette. And perhaps some who've never belonged to a private club never learned it properly, hence the lecture. If you haven't been improperly seeking access then no offense should be taken on your part.
-
Sean,
I have to side with Pat here. It's simply a matter of etiquette. And perhaps some who've never belonged to a private club never learned it properly, hence the lecture. If you haven't been improperly seeking access then no offense should be taken on your part.
Jud
It isn't Pat's opinion I object to; I happen to share it. My issue is being lectured to and then being insulted (which is a typical behaviour Pat falls back on) when I have nothing to do with his or Jeff's qualms. If I haven't stepped on toes, I shouldn't be lectured to as though I have. Broadcasting this sort of problem is imo just as inapporpriate as cold calling for access. But that is just my opinion and if others disagree, I am not terriby bothered - its just opinions.
Ciao
-
Jud
Etiquette, its simply a matter of etiquette, that’s great just great. When I raised my concern about senior players course behaviour i.e. throwing of clubs etc I was accused of Tiger bashing.
The real problem with this site is not the site but its members or perhaps I should say the inconsistency of quite a few. Why because many will not address the issues. Etiquette is important be it on the course or off and would certainly not go amiss on this site too. The problem is always easier if we blame others as we may have missed the infringements or just accept that our heroes are above reproach. I was taught that no one was above the law.
If standards have slipped on the course with no action being taken to nip poor behaviour on the spot, then why do we expect anything else from fellow members.
Etiquette, is as much part of golf as walking but we have seen how that has been diminished over the years, so why are we reacting as we are today, it just natural progress. In time in will deteriorate further unless checked and people take responsibility for their actions.
But Guys we have to be consistent, to do so we have to be committed, but it’s a DG where commitment is not considered let alone required. In short we are the product of our own problems and the only way to resolve problems is to have an open debate on the topics concerned, which brings up round full circle.
Etiquette is used so lightly but it is as I said fundamental to good golf and I suspect to this site as well.
Jeff decided by posting this topic to attack me but without the bottle to name me, making it very clear who he was referring to “ I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played..“ He not just attacked me, but the site and others again without naming names because he was feeling pissed. Is this the standard you want for this site, well its certainly does not seem to be Ran’s or Bens, seeing by Ran’s post early today.
We all have a contribution to this DG, no one has more right than the next and if only some would allow the topics to flow we may all learn something new perhaps even interesting.
Melvyn
-
I apologize to everyone for jumping on Mr. Tigerman. I did not mean for it to cause such a debate.
Perhaps a lot of us who work at or belong to lower tier clubs just feel a little left out by some of
the posts on this site. Augusta and National Golf Links receive so many architectural posts that
they are referred to using acronyms. AGNC and NGLA are two places I am pretty sure I will never
set foot on (unless I "whore myself out") so any discussion regarding those two clubs or basically
any private, exclusive venue is simply not for me.
I love this site and am very grateful to Ran for letting me participate but my knowledge of golf
architecture, growing every day, is limited to the architecture I've seen. I may have been mistaken
but I figured my "DG worth" could be contributed to my experience as a "restoration GM," the fact
I've played over 1,000 courses all over the country, and that I am a golf fanatic.
I think Ran's recent post was an excellent reminder of why this site exists. I am going to take his
advice and try to keep my comments GCA related. I recently posted about Executive Golfer
magazine simply because I wanted to know more about those clubs and poke a little fun at the
silly people who produce it. This is obviously not the right venue for something like that.
However... if anyone needs a fourth at ANGC or NGLA... give me a holler! ;D
-
Pat
I am confused that someone feels it isn't a waste of time to lecture the Tree House about access issues but it is a waste of time to confront the "guilty" parties.
Sean,
I know you're confused, I pointed that out to you.
Didn't you read Jeff's posts ?
He stated that he was besieged by an inordinate number of requests, requests made in poor taste.
Why is it his obligation or TEPaul's or my obligation to spend our time lecturing the offenders who didn't see the nature and scope of their transgression in the first place ? What benefits will inure to any of us as a result of spending our time to lecture the miscreants ?
You don't get it.
What's even more incredible is that after I cited the examples and problems, you still don't get it.
That's why you NEED to be lectured.
Isn't that what you advised Jeff and I do to ? To lecture those that don't get it.
I am also confused as to how rampant this behaviour is.
How can you be confused ?
Jeff layed it out in perfect english/terms.
And, I supported Jeff's contention from TEPaul's and my personal experiences.
Talk about obtuse.
I could be wrong, but I get the feeling we are talking about a handful or two of people when I don't know how many hundreds have rolled through the Tree House.
You are WRONG.
TEPaul, myself and others have had numerous discussions on the problem.
I even had one person dictate what date and time he wanted to play, with NO regard to what my schedule may have been.
It may be a problem for a very small group on here, but where I come from, when you have a problem with someone you talk to that someone.
Again, you're wrong.
It's not a small group.
And, neither TEPaul, Jeff or myself are going to waste our time talking to someone who already knows better.
Afterall, what does Joe Blow's behaviour have to do with me and hundreds of other people here?
Citing your own advice, when you see a post that's seeking access, directly or indirectly, you could raise your objections and lecture the offending poster off site.
Being lectured to because of someone eles's behaviour is about as off topic as it gets besides being rather annoying.
That's not why you're being lectured.
You're being lectured because you defended and/or minimalized the problem and suggested that like Dr Phil, we spend time trying to console and educate the offenders.
It is especially irksome when you (yet again and to form) add pointlless, misguided insults, compounding the problem because they are directed at the wrong person unless you for some (mistaken I might add) reason believe I have asked any access favours (or any other sort for that matter) of you.
Nonsense,
You defended and minimalized the behavior and advised us to take time out of our day to counsel the offenders.
You need to be lectured if you're that stupid.
-
Pat
I am confused that someone feels it isn't a waste of time to lecture the Tree House about access issues but it is a waste of time to confront the "guilty" parties.
Sean,
I know you're confused, I pointed that out to you.
Didn't you read Jeff's posts ?
He stated that he was besieged by an inordinate number of requests, requests made in poor taste.
Why is it his obligation or TEPaul's or my obligation to spend our time lecturing the offenders who didn't see the nature and scope of their transgression in the first place ? What benefits will inure to any of us as a result of spending our time to lecture the miscreants ?
You don't get it.
What's even more incredible is that after I cited the examples and problems, you still don't get it.
That's why you NEED to be lectured.
Isn't that what you advised Jeff and I do to ? To lecture those that don't get it.
I am also confused as to how rampant this behaviour is.
How can you be confused ?
Jeff layed it out in perfect english/terms.
And, I supported Jeff's contention from TEPaul's and my personal experiences.
Talk about obtuse.
I could be wrong, but I get the feeling we are talking about a handful or two of people when I don't know how many hundreds have rolled through the Tree House.
You are WRONG.
TEPaul, myself and others have had numerous discussions on the problem.
I even had one person dictate what date and time he wanted to play, with NO regard to what my schedule may have been.
It may be a problem for a very small group on here, but where I come from, when you have a problem with someone you talk to that someone.
Again, you're wrong.
It's not a small group.
And, neither TEPaul, Jeff or myself are going to waste our time talking to someone who already knows better.
Afterall, what does Joe Blow's behaviour have to do with me and hundreds of other people here?
Citing your own advice, when you see a post that's seeking access, directly or indirectly, you could raise your objections and lecture the offending poster off site.
Being lectured to because of someone eles's behaviour is about as off topic as it gets besides being rather annoying.
That's not why you're being lectured.
You're being lectured because you defended and/or minimalized the problem and suggested that like Dr Phil, we spend time trying to console and educate the offenders.
It is especially irksome when you (yet again and to form) add pointlless, misguided insults, compounding the problem because they are directed at the wrong person unless you for some (mistaken I might add) reason believe I have asked any access favours (or any other sort for that matter) of you.
Nonsense,
You defended and minimalized the behavior and advised us to take time out of our day to counsel the offenders.
You need to be lectured if you're that stupid.
Pat
I know you went to Notre Dame, but I am sure they don't teach classes in obtuseness so I am guessing it comes naturally. Because you and a few others have issues with access seekers in no way implies that it is a serious or rampant problem on the board. Without the offending behaviour detailed and with a relatively small number of people complaining about this issue it is prudent for me to draw the conclusion that this isn't much of a problem for the board even if it is for some individuals. Your time can't be terribly valuable if you want to whine about your personal problems to me; someone who has nothing to do with your problem, isn't inclined to act as a policeman on the board nor is terribly sympathetic about your plight when it is quite clear by your rude and obnoxious behaviour that you have the wherewithal to deal with unwanted solicitations.
Ciao
-
I know you went to Notre Dame,
That's true.
I especially enjoyed the three years I spent as a Junior.
but I am sure they don't teach classes in obtuseness so I am guessing it comes naturally.
Because you and a few others have issues with access seekers in no way implies that it is a serious or rampant problem on the board.
Sean, no one is seeking access to Dykers Beach.
The access issue centers on clubs of note.
Jeff Fortson spend inordinate quantities of ink describing the almost constant bombardment for access and you want to deny or minimilize his personal experiences and claims.
Then, I chime in about some of the inordinate requests that TEPaul, myself and others have gotten and you want to deny those as well.
Face it, you're flat out wrong on this issue.
You haven't an iota of personal experience or facts to counter the claims of Jeff, TEPaul, myself and others.
That's just plain stupidity and/or stubborness on your part.
It's a problem, it's a systemic problem no matter how deep you bury your head in the sand.
Without the offending behaviour detailed and with a relatively small number of people complaining about this issue it is prudent for me to draw the conclusion that this isn't much of a problem for the board even if it is for some individuals.
How do you know it's a "relatively small" number of people complaining ?
Are you privy to all the IM's, emails and phone calls on this subject ?
Your time can't be terribly valuable if you want to whine about your personal problems to me; someone who has nothing to do with your problem, isn't inclined to act as a policeman on the board nor is terribly sympathetic about your plight when it is quite clear by your rude and obnoxious behaviour that you have the wherewithal to deal with unwanted solicitations.
I tried to reason with you, but, you're in denial even though you have NO experience in this area.
Would you cite where I wanted to whine about personal problems to you, or is that just another one of your fabrications attempting to justify your untenable position ?
Why would I want to waste a second of my time lecturing AW's ?
I've got far better things to do, like point out the errors of your ways.
-
Pat,
There is a HUGE difference between you and a guy like Jeff F. You both dislike acess whores, both miss some friends who were classic GCA posters and both miss the GOLDEN DAYS when you were discoveng GCA on the internet.
However, YOU still try to make the site better. YOU still create interesting discussion topics. YOU share your insights into the incredible number of great courses that you have played. YOU decided to have another GCA have outing this fall and have created a first class agenda. YOU are what I call a builder.
Jeff, on the other hand, does NONE of this. He makes absolutely ZERO positive contribution for years, then makes a post that rips the site. He then gets emboldened by a few PM's, so he continues his rant.
I have found in life there are two kind of people: 1) Builders (risk takers, inventors, and entrepeneurs, etc.) who move the world forward and 2) Everyone else...
Within the "everyone else" category, is a small minority of whiners, complainers and naysayers. They have been there forever. They are part of HISTORY. I know them. I met them when I was president of my fraternity, when I was on my local school board, when I became board member of my golf club and helped lead a restoration effort. They are the Jeff Forstens of the world. I knew it when I read his post. They have neither the courage nor the capacity to build, so they try to knock down. They have plenty of excuses why they don't lead....but the truth is they are simply far more comfortable when they are knocking something. And they are at their back-stabbing worst when someone like Pat Mucci encourages them. You see Pat, they are gutless, often bullies. So they need the Pat Mucci's and Donnie Beck's of this website, people who actually contribute to CGA.com (but would NEVER say all the harmful things Jeff said) to pump them up. I usually ignore these losers and I can't quite put my finger on why this one irks me so...Oddly, it might have been Jeff's inclusion of a knock of Melvin, which told me Jeff's intent was to harm.
-
Sean,
With respect, I think Patrick is correct here (and I hate to be agreeing with anyone whose posts hurt my eyes as much as his ;)) Those of who aren't members of well known "top 100" courses (or who are but manage to keep it quiet to GCA at large) aren't going to see access requests. Someone can PM me asking if I can help him get on PV and I'll point him to the website of a local public course called Pleasant Valley. If replies back telling me he meant Pine Valley, I'll start to laugh as I tell him I'll get back to him after *I* get to play there ;)
Is it possible that Jeff, Patrick and others are making a big deal out of 2 or 3 random requests they each receive a year? Sure, anything's possible, maybe it is all a grand conspiracy amongst them to quash those last 2 or 3 people who have bad manners. But I suspect it is much more likely that it is a real problem, given that there are occasionally threads where people are practically asking for help accessing a particular course or courses in a particular area. If someone is brazen enough to do that in front of 1499 others, I'm sure they would have no problem in PMing anyone they see mentioning having frequently played say NGLA or Oakmont or whatever.
Its like the people who send out the spam emails we all love sifting through. It costs them nothing to send, and even a miniscule success rate makes it worth their while. Sometimes spam frustrates me enough that I wish I was an antisocial bastard. I have been on the Internet since before it allowed commercial traffic, if I didn't care about the negative consequences of my actions I could been one of the spam pioneers, and probably be a member at Sand Hills and Sebonack getting hassled for access on GCA ;D Likewise, as a long-time member of GCA who hasn't ever got access to a course via GCA, if I'd been bugging people all this time I'd probably have a lot of people disliking me but I'd have some more top 100 courses under my belt ::)
-
If AW is such an issue then maybe people should be called out publicly on the site if they are clearly or repeatedly pestering those members of "the upper crust" who are sick of it?
Has there even been a thread posted on GCA about proper etiquette in regards to the AW issue?
Maybe some of the guys who are constantly bothered - some of them have already been mentioned on this thread - can "lay down the law" on etiquette - then if they are bothered by a site "rookie" they can point them to the thread. That is their chance to learn. It is possible that some are making a "rookie" mistake and just need some guidance.
If they don't get it - then let the world know.
-
Sean,
With respect, I think Patrick is correct here (and I hate to be agreeing with anyone whose posts hurt my eyes as much as his ;)) Those of who aren't members of well known "top 100" courses (or who are but manage to keep it quiet to GCA at large) aren't going to see access requests. Someone can PM me asking if I can help him get on PV and I'll point him to the website of a local public course called Pleasant Valley. If replies back telling me he meant Pine Valley, I'll start to laugh as I tell him I'll get back to him after *I* get to play there ;)
Is it possible that Jeff, Patrick and others are making a big deal out of 2 or 3 random requests they each receive a year? Sure, anything's possible, maybe it is all a grand conspiracy amongst them to quash those last 2 or 3 people who have bad manners. But I suspect it is much more likely that it is a real problem, given that there are occasionally threads where people are practically asking for help accessing a particular course or courses in a particular area. If someone is brazen enough to do that in front of 1499 others, I'm sure they would have no problem in PMing anyone they see mentioning having frequently played say NGLA or Oakmont or whatever.
Its like the people who send out the spam emails we all love sifting through. It costs them nothing to send, and even a miniscule success rate makes it worth their while. Sometimes spam frustrates me enough that I wish I was an antisocial bastard. I have been on the Internet since before it allowed commercial traffic, if I didn't care about the negative consequences of my actions I could been one of the spam pioneers, and probably be a member at Sand Hills and Sebonack getting hassled for access on GCA ;D Likewise, as a long-time member of GCA who hasn't ever got access to a course via GCA, if I'd been bugging people all this time I'd probably have a lot of people disliking me but I'd have some more top 100 courses under my belt ::)
Doug
I have said before it doesn't really matter to me if folks agree or not because its my opinion and absent nearly all the evidence my opinion is the best I can offer, but I will try to explain again.
I can accept that behind closed doors all sorts of stuff goes on even access requests. I do however, especially without evidence presented, find it hard to believe that these situations on a whole are any sort of serious problem for THE BOARD. The problem is between the access seekers and those being asked - not with me or hundreds of other people on the board. Given that this is undeniably true, why do folks go on the board to whinge when their comments should be directed at the (apparently hundreds of guilty parties if Pat's accusations are accurate) guilty parties? In other words, Pat's, Jeff's of whoever's problem doesn't become my problem because we are members of the same board. As I have no personal connection with these chaps, I don't want to hear their personal problems and then be insulted on top when in fact, I have done nothing wrong unless disagreeing with Pat is now considered wrong. I know Pat thinks so, but until he can learn to control himself and or present the eviidence, I don't care about his opinion. It works out well, because unlike the hundreds of access seekers hounding Pat endlessly, I don't need any favours from Pat.
Ciao
-
Well said Sean.
-
Pat,
There is a HUGE difference between you and a guy like Jeff F. You both dislike acess whores, both miss some friends who were classic GCA posters and both miss the GOLDEN DAYS when you were discoveng GCA on the internet.
However, YOU still try to make the site better. YOU still create interesting discussion topics. YOU share your insights into the incredible number of great courses that you have played. YOU decided to have another GCA have outing this fall and have created a first class agenda. YOU are what I call a builder.
Jeff, on the other hand, does NONE of this. He makes absolutely ZERO positive contribution for years, then makes a post that rips the site. He then gets emboldened by a few PM's, so he continues his rant.
I have found in life there are two kind of people: 1) Builders (risk takers, inventors, and entrepeneurs, etc.) who move the world forward and 2) Everyone else...
Within the "everyone else" category, is a small minority of whiners, complainers and naysayers. They have been there forever. They are part of HISTORY. I know them. I met them when I was president of my fraternity, when I was on my local school board, when I became board member of my golf club and helped lead a restoration effort. They are the Jeff Forstens of the world. I knew it when I read his post. They have neither the courage nor the capacity to build, so they try to knock down. They have plenty of excuses why they don't lead....but the truth is they are simply far more comfortable when they are knocking something. And they are at their back-stabbing worst when someone like Pat Mucci encourages them. You see Pat, they are gutless, often bullies. So they need the Pat Mucci's and Donnie Beck's of this website, people who actually contribute to CGA.com (but would NEVER say all the harmful things Jeff said) to pump them up. I usually ignore these losers and I can't quite put my finger on why this one irks me so...Oddly, it might have been Jeff's inclusion of a knock of Melvin, which told me Jeff's intent was to harm.
Bill-I registered as a poster in January after accessing the site for about 5 years. I am extremely grateful to Ran for the opportunity. The discussion group has been invaluable and enlightening. That said I have read Jeff`s initial post a number of times and although it was not a glowing assessment of the current DG it certainly doesn`t contain the vitriol of your post or your mean spirited comparison of him and Mr. Mucci. If the words gutless,bully and loser are not meant to harm then maybe I don`t understand your intent. Mr. Forsten touched on three sources of angst- 1)Access Whoring 2)Pissing Contests like the Merion Threads and 3) A general dissatisfaction with the OT content of the site. It seems that there is a sizable portion of the membership of GCA that feel these issues are in fact a problem. Current threads by Ran and numerous posts by the likes of Pat Mucci confirm the same. No one likes to have things that they are a fan of picked apart but that`s what makes the world go round. Mr. Forsten even showed some contrition as to some of his previous posts that were confrontational and ill conceived(I`m paraphrasing). It`s obvious from your post that you consider yourself a "builder". I suggest you have a slice of humble pie and let "everyone else" have their say. If you read it carefully he also had
some positive things to say. Finally your rant was as nasty as anything I have read on the Merion threads. If I put your post up against Jeff`s initial post it would be yours that would drive me away from CGA a lot faster.
-
Tim
I would for your sake re read Jeff's original post. There is more to it than you think, the warm heat of hate has reached me in the UK
Melvyn
-
I have said before it doesn't really matter to me if folks agree or not because its my opinion and absent nearly all the evidence my opinion is the best I can offer, but I will try to explain again.
When your head is stuck in the sand you can't see the evidence.
Jeff presented it, I presented it and TEPaul and others have presented it.
But, strangely,lyou remain in denial.
I can accept that behind closed doors all sorts of stuff goes on even access requests. I do however, especially without evidence presented, find it hard to believe that these situations on a whole are any sort of serious problem for THE BOARD. The problem is between the access seekers and those being asked - not with me or hundreds of other people on the board.
That's why you don't get it.
It's not a collective incident/problem directed at the BOARD, it's a series of incidents directed at individual participants on the BOARD.
Should Jeff, TE, myself and others "OUT" someone every time access is requested ?
I don't think any of us are interested in that practice.
Better to let it go and not bring each incident public.
But, it's also good to serve notice to lurkers and participants alike, especially new participants.
If you were a member of PV, Sunningdale or Swinley Forest I think you'd be singing a different tune.[/b]
Given that is is undeniably the true, why do folks go on the board to whinge when their comments should be directed at the (apparently hundreds of guilty parties if Pat's accusations are accurate) guilty parties?
For the same reason that a "PUBLIC NOTICE" is posted.
OR, in terms you might understand, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
OR, better to nip it in the bud .....
In other words, Pat's, Jeff's of whoever's problem doesn't become my problem because we are members of the same board. As I have no personal connection with these chaps, I don't want to hear their personal problems and then be insulted on top when in fact, I have done nothing wrong unless disagreeing with Pat is now considered wrong. I know Pat thinks so, but until he can learn to control himself and or present the eviidence, I don't care about his opinion. It works out well, because unlike the hundreds of access seekers hounding Pat endlessly, I don't need any favours from Pat.
The ONLY reason it's not your problem is that you don't belong to or can arrange guest privileges at a course where access is sought.
Reread the part about an ounce of prevention.
I didn't take you to task and insult you because you disagreed with me in principle, but, because you ignored and dismissed the facts and experiences presented by Jeff, myself, TE and others.
Here we have unrelated parties from different sections of the country informing the board that its a problem and you're denying that it's a problem and essentially calling us liars.
And for that, you deserve to be taken to task and insulted.
I've hosted dozens upon dozens of participants at clubs, so it's not as if I don't extend the courtesy.
When Jeff brought the issue to everyone's attention, I merely confirmed that it's a problem that I and others had experienced and that I'd prefer NOT to continue to experience it.
If you want to be so stupid as to support the AW activity, go ahead and do so.
What you also fail to realize is that it's just not participants who engage in this activity, but lurkers as well
Hence, like a public notice, Jeff's plea to cease and desist has merit.
While you've declined any favors from me, I'd be happy to host you at a club if my schedule permits.
-
Pat,
There is a HUGE difference between you and a guy like Jeff F. You both dislike acess whores, both miss some friends who were classic GCA posters and both miss the GOLDEN DAYS when you were discoveng GCA on the internet.
However, YOU still try to make the site better. YOU still create interesting discussion topics. YOU share your insights into the incredible number of great courses that you have played. YOU decided to have another GCA have outing this fall and have created a first class agenda. YOU are what I call a builder.
Jeff, on the other hand, does NONE of this. He makes absolutely ZERO positive contribution for years, then makes a post that rips the site. He then gets emboldened by a few PM's, so he continues his rant.
I have found in life there are two kind of people: 1) Builders (risk takers, inventors, and entrepeneurs, etc.) who move the world forward and 2) Everyone else...
Within the "everyone else" category, is a small minority of whiners, complainers and naysayers. They have been there forever. They are part of HISTORY. I know them. I met them when I was president of my fraternity, when I was on my local school board, when I became board member of my golf club and helped lead a restoration effort. They are the Jeff Forstens of the world. I knew it when I read his post. They have neither the courage nor the capacity to build, so they try to knock down. They have plenty of excuses why they don't lead....but the truth is they are simply far more comfortable when they are knocking something. And they are at their back-stabbing worst when someone like Pat Mucci encourages them. You see Pat, they are gutless, often bullies. So they need the Pat Mucci's and Donnie Beck's of this website, people who actually contribute to CGA.com (but would NEVER say all the harmful things Jeff said) to pump them up. I usually ignore these losers and I can't quite put my finger on why this one irks me so...Oddly, it might have been Jeff's inclusion of a knock of Melvin, which told me Jeff's intent was to harm.
Bill,
Let's share some facts....
#1- Re: my lack of participation, contribution or leadership on this site... 3 1/2 years ago, one month after my daughter was born, my two year old son was diagnosed with autism. In the last three years I have devoted my ENTIRE life to helping my son get therapy to recover from this horrible condition. In the last three years my son has gone from literally running in circles for 8+ hours a day, flapping his hands, making sounds that would make an insane asylum look sane, chronic diarrhea without having passed a solid stool for 2+ years, no eye contact, allergies to most foods, not potty trained, and never once communicating his needs... to now being mainstreamed in a typical classroom at a private school, has friends, has vast language, passes normal stools on the toilet all by himself, has eye contact, plays with toys in a typical manner and tells me he loves me everyday. He's 6 years old now.
Now, I normally wouldn't bring something up like this because it sounds like I am asking for sympathy or an "excuse" as to why I haven't been contributing to the website. But, considering the attacks you are making on my character, I feel the need to share this to clear the record as to the biggest reason I have been absent for so long. If you don't know much about autism, I suggest you do some research so you can better understand it. Maybe then you might think twice before questioning someone's reason for being absent from a website for a while. Tough choice... heal my child or talk about alps and redans... hmmmmm? What should I have done more of?
#2- I tried to take our conversation private to try to de-escalate the angst that was building. After you had questioned and scorned me on this thread by writing a fake public letter of apology from me to Ran in which you detailed my lack of financial contribution to this site, I felt you needed to know why that was. So, I tried to take the conversation private through PMs. I didn't want to explain why I hadn't contributed to this website monetarily publicly because it would look self serving. After I explained to you that I presented Ran a check in person when I met him, that he refused to take it and implored me to spend the money helping my son, I figured that might make you feel like you shouldn't have brought up my lack of donations to the site. That resulted in no apology and a demand over and over again that I MUST apologize publicly or you would call me out on everything in the forum. Then you started an actual countdown to when you would start blasting me publicly. I told you that I stood by my post and that I didn't feel it necessary to apologize. You then went back on the thread and began to try to stir the pot again. Let's be clear... I tried to take it private with you and hash it out there to keep the growing drama off the DG. It was met with threats and a countdown. YOU have chosen to keep this alive. I said my piece and I said multiple times that it's ok if you don't agree with it and it could have been left at that.
#3- I wrote the initial post because I care about this website. I wanted to share what I had seen as I lurked for all this time. I wanted to say my piece and move on to contributing again. I am only writing this post because you have chosen to escalate the attack on my character after I have made more than one attempt to calm the waters with you personally. This thread had dropped off the first page and I was hoping it would stay that way. Unfortunately, you have chosen to make it personal with me. I never once attacked you or mentioned you by name anywhere in my original post. Looks like you need to take your own advice and admit you're wrong. But, I doubt that will happen. ::)
Jeff FORTSON
-
Jeff
I believe you thought 1498 may not, my only problem is that you pulled me into this thread when you said "I'm sick of the elitist mentalities, the groveling access whores, and relatives of famous golfers telling us how the game should be played. "
Telling us, who on here would do as I told them, name one guy - rather low opinion of your fellow members.
Melvyn
-
Jeff,
I am sorry to hear about your son's medical condition and I wish all the best to you and your family. Raising an autistic child is certainly an incredibly difficult task.
Now let me explain the true facts to you:
This thread was off the first page and I intended to let it die. I never brought it off page 2.
YOU made a public post ripping this site, completely unfairly, IMO, with the possible exception of a few unnamed gca members who may use this site for access purposes. If that is true, you had a point there, and those people should stop. Then I defended the site.
You replied by saying that you "singled me out" with your access criticisms because I am an offender. Jeff, that is just one of your many mistakes. I have hosted 7 GCA members at my course and been hosted once, an unsolicited offer when I visited Pinehurst and I paid the greens fee. I also asked a gca super to take my super on a tour as we are doing a restoration, and my super is involved in the shaping. (That did not happen.) I happen to enjoy meeting and hosting GCA members. I enjoy the deep GCA conversations that you can have with fellow geeks, without fear of their eyes glazing over and I like showing them my course.
At that point I had to point out that INACCURATE, mean-spirited criticisms from a total non-participant on this website like you would NOT stand unchallenged. I researched The Good Old GCA Days, spent hours reading old threads...(very selective memory by you old guys :) the site had just as many OT threads and MANY threads died a quick death...) Lo and behold I found an old Jeff F criticism! (You called the site Golf Course Access.com 8 frigging years ago...)
You went off line and asked me to stop, and I agreed if you would amend your criticisms to AWing, You said that you stood by EVERY word in your initial post, including attacking a harmless guy like Melvin. Ran doesn't need me to stick up for him, but once you refused to even apologize for mentioning the other webite, a totally CLASSLESS act, I told you that I would see you back in the public forum, where we are now.
I have tried not to rip you on every point. I let slide the RIDICULOUS comment that you made saying that AWing was OK between pros of clubs because it is a "professional courtesy." You are so HYPOCRITICAL ...You were an assistant Pro at Riveria, big deal!!! You are not even a member! The MEMEBERS own the club, you simply worked there. How dare you get offended that you had to say no to access requests...If local kids hopped the fence and the pro asked you to chase them away, you would go do that, right? It is not a big deal. You had no access to grant in the first place...don't act put out...
My letter was not fake, I was trying to help you out. It was the kind of letter you should have sent to Ran, the guy who told you not to contribute financially to the site because he knew of your family situation. I guess if I have to explain a classy move versus a classless move...I am probably wasting my breath.
Jeff, I have NO DOUBT that I nailed your personality type, and all the private messages that I have received from long time GCA posters have confirmed that. I don't know why you continue to attempt to do battle with me in written words, it is obviouisly not your strength. But if you do NOTHING to improve the website, pick on others, and keep coming back at me...I welcome the challenge. I do suggest that you focus on architecture topics and hope that you find enjoyment there.
-
Jeff-In all seriousness, how many requests did you have? I was at Mid South Club in Pinehurst, a mostly private facility. I had a few people ask me if they could play there and I got every one of them on the course. Even got one out unaccompanied with a foursome. I was happy to get people out. I really think you are complaining just to simply complain. Get over it.
-
You know Pat, I haven't really read this thread but I was just reading your #254 to Sean Arble with some amusement. You mentioned you and me a lot, and of course we have talked about this kind of thing a lot over the years.
But I was just thinking of something kind of odd---eg I think in my thirty some years playing golf I have been approached by people asking me unsolicited for access to play my club and one of my father's---Seminole--maybe less than half a dozen times that had nothing to do with this website.
But from this website I have had maybe 2-3 people solicit me for access to my club but maybe 40 to 50 people through this website solicit me to arrange access for them (many of whom I've never actually met) for access to golf clubs I don't even belong to!! ;)
Go Figure. ???
PS:
Believe it or not, many years ago through this website even David Moriarty called me up and asked me to give him the telephone number of a good friend of mine at Maidstone so he could call him up (because he met him once somewhere) and ask him for access to Maidstone.
I guess that goes to the old saw---the more things change the more they remain the same----or should it be the more things remain the same the more they change? ::)
-
But from this website I have had maybe 2-3 people solicit me for access to my club but maybe 40 to 50 people through this website solicit me to arrange access for them (many of whom I've never actually met) for access to golf clubs I don't even belong to!! ;)
Go Figure. ???
I find this troubling.
Especially since access to the barn and the archives therein has to be better than any course out there!
-
JC:
I find it troubling because apparently a lot of people who solicit me for access to other clubs think my golf course sucks compared to the golf courses of a lot of good friends of mine from clubs that I don't belong to. :'(
I don't mind that an iota but you know what? I call that the Donald Ross CURSE on Guph Mills GC, because back in 1916 when the founding members got him to do GMGC he absolutely guaranteed them that it would be superior to any golf course in this region and perhaps in America. Obviously Ross was well aware that the like of Merion East and Pine Valley were in this region and not far away. ;)
Even Tom MacWood implied a couple of times on here that my course is sort of second rate. Of course that is typical MacWood because like most all the courses he purports to be an expert on, even if he's never even seen them, he has never seen GMGC either.
It is just amazing to me how some people on here think and it's getting more amazing to me every day it seems. :P
My goal, though, is to be more like C.B. Macdonald every day, and particularly as reflected in this wonderful exchange about him:
Clarence Piper had been to see C.B. at NGLA in the early 1920s and via letter Alan Wilson asked Piper if C.B. tried to take his head off. Piper wrote back and said; "No, he didn't try to take MY head off but he did allow that everybody else was an idiot!"
;)
-
Tom: I hope my off the board question to you did not seem disrespectful, but given your present statement it may have been. I asked, not because I thought your course was in any way inferior to the courses named in my question, but because I felt you would have the best and most respectful answer to my question AND because I believe it would have been disrespectful to you personally if I asked to play your course or ask you to arrange access for me.
I personally don't think this site has 'jumped the shark' and I think in general nearly every person on here who is a member at a private club is more than willing to share their course with others, if approached about it the right way. I once asked Mr. Huntley if it would be possible to play MPCC, but only after I had another GCA member whom I had met personally contact him before hand. That is the proper way to do it, I think.
-
But from this website I have had maybe 2-3 people solicit me for access to my club but maybe 40 to 50 people through this website solicit me to arrange access for them (many of whom I've never actually met) for access to golf clubs I don't even belong to!! ;)
Tom,
I suspect that some think that GMGC is so exclusive that not even you can get them on there. :)
-
no it hasnt
i agree somethings could be better about it...but i'd bet its never been perfect...and neither am i nor any of you
I've been part of GCA for more than 6 years already, and as someone already pointed out, this kind of thread does pop up from time to time
i've met many nice people thru GCA, some of whom have done favors for me that I could never possible repay...and i've done a few smaller favors for others, and hope i can continue to do so...
whenever I hear people talking about "the good old days", i always think of the speech in "The American President"..go to about the 2:48 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWRVbWMvi7c
to be able to communicate with so many good people about the game i love so much - next to my family, playing a good golf course, esp for the first time, is my favorite thing to do in the world
Jeff, might i suggest you start some good architecture threads?
thanks Ran and all my GCA friends
-
....in a typical classroom at a private school, has friends, has vast language, passes normal stools on the toilet all by himself, has eye contact, plays with toys in a typical manner and tells me he loves me everyday. He's 6 years old now.
Now, I normally wouldn't bring something up like this because it sounds like I am asking for sympathy...
Jeff, you may not be asking for it, but you certainly have mine. Fantastic news about your son.
-
I have said before it doesn't really matter to me if folks agree or not because its my opinion and absent nearly all the evidence my opinion is the best I can offer, but I will try to explain again.
When your head is stuck in the sand you can't see the evidence.
Jeff presented it, I presented it and TEPaul and others have presented it.
But, strangely,lyou remain in denial.
I can accept that behind closed doors all sorts of stuff goes on even access requests. I do however, especially without evidence presented, find it hard to believe that these situations on a whole are any sort of serious problem for THE BOARD. The problem is between the access seekers and those being asked - not with me or hundreds of other people on the board.
That's why you don't get it.
It's not a collective incident/problem directed at the BOARD, it's a series of incidents directed at individual participants on the BOARD.
Should Jeff, TE, myself and others "OUT" someone every time access is requested ?
I don't think any of us are interested in that practice.
Better to let it go and not bring each incident public.
But, it's also good to serve notice to lurkers and participants alike, especially new participants.
If you were a member of PV, Sunningdale or Swinley Forest I think you'd be singing a different tune.[/b]
Given that is is undeniably the true, why do folks go on the board to whinge when their comments should be directed at the (apparently hundreds of guilty parties if Pat's accusations are accurate) guilty parties?
For the same reason that a "PUBLIC NOTICE" is posted.
OR, in terms you might understand, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"
OR, better to nip it in the bud .....
In other words, Pat's, Jeff's of whoever's problem doesn't become my problem because we are members of the same board. As I have no personal connection with these chaps, I don't want to hear their personal problems and then be insulted on top when in fact, I have done nothing wrong unless disagreeing with Pat is now considered wrong. I know Pat thinks so, but until he can learn to control himself and or present the eviidence, I don't care about his opinion. It works out well, because unlike the hundreds of access seekers hounding Pat endlessly, I don't need any favours from Pat.
The ONLY reason it's not your problem is that you don't belong to or can arrange guest privileges at a course where access is sought.
Reread the part about an ounce of prevention.
I didn't take you to task and insult you because you disagreed with me in principle, but, because you ignored and dismissed the facts and experiences presented by Jeff, myself, TE and others.
Here we have unrelated parties from different sections of the country informing the board that its a problem and you're denying that it's a problem and essentially calling us liars.
And for that, you deserve to be taken to task and insulted.
I've hosted dozens upon dozens of participants at clubs, so it's not as if I don't extend the courtesy.
When Jeff brought the issue to everyone's attention, I merely confirmed that it's a problem that I and others had experienced and that I'd prefer NOT to continue to experience it.
If you want to be so stupid as to support the AW activity, go ahead and do so.
What you also fail to realize is that it's just not participants who engage in this activity, but lurkers as well
Hence, like a public notice, Jeff's plea to cease and desist has merit.
While you've declined any favors from me, I'd be happy to host you at a club if my schedule permits.
Pat
You have presented next to no evidence - those are the facts. Now you say up to 50 people have cold called you. If this is the case, that is probably somewhere in the region of once every other month since you have been on the board. Post your public notice under your name or at the bottom of your posts. My contention has been because relatively few people have hassled relateeively few people on this board that it isn't a board problem. You nor anybody else hasn't produced anywhere near enough info to convince we have an epidemic problem on the board. Again, I could be wrong, but without the facts...
I do very much get that your problem is a series of incidents not directed at the board, that is why I suggest you handle these incidents privately - they are not a board issue. If you feel you must post a public notice use the space below your name or at the bottom of your post. That lets people know in no uncertain terms how you feel without hvaing to rehash this same subject every year.
No, I am not a member of one of the elite clubs, but I do get cold calls for games. The diffeence is I don't mind, but I fully understand that others would and that is why I wouldn't cold call someone.
When did I ever give you the impression that I support folf cold calling you or anybody elese except for myself? There is no need to fal back on accusations that are clearly not accurate merely because it is my opinion that cold calling is a problem for a few people on the board rather than a wide spread issue which can't be dealt with in a private manner. This leads me to my final point, when did I ever give you the impression that you need to publicy take folks to task for cold calling? I have repeatedly stated these issues should be dealt with privately because they ARE NOT BOARD ISSUES. You are known for pulling switches with your argumentative behaviour, but at least try and be clever about it.
Thank you for the invite, but I would rather an apology for your pointless insults and a gesture that you will in the future refrain from needlessly insulting folks on this board. It is all too common an occurrence which serves no positive purpose.
Ciao
-
Sean,
I understand your comments and appreciate the time you have taken with this issue. I am afraid it hits a little close to home for me. When I knew I was traveling to a certain part of the country I contacted someone who used to post here regarding two private courses I wanted to play in the area. He contacted a friend who was a member at one of the courses and this gentleman arranged tee times at his course and the other course for me and my son. We paid full fare, I wouldn't have it any other way, and thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. However, it seems I may have violated protocal here. Both men were very gracious and eager to accomodate me so I never got a sense I was out of line. I did not think it out of line for me to seek access to the courses. However, I did conclude that I would not post pictures and a report on my adventures on this website. That seemed like an invasion of privacy. down the road if a discussion here were relevant to these courses I might post thoughts even a picture but I am not certain if that is proper. In any event, I have had a handful of people contact me about playing courses to which I have special access and I have not hesitated in arranging a tee time for them, some of whom I never met, or met once and wouldn't know them if I passed them on the street. I would suggest if someone is concerned about access seekers they do not publish on here their affiliation with certain clubs. Otherwise, Sean I agree that it seems to be a problem for a small fraction of the people on this discussion group.
Kelly
Thats just it! Some people mind and some don't. THERE IS NO STANDARD ON THIS SORT OF THING other than what folks are comfortable with. Because I (or whoever) wouldn't do it should mean squat to you or anybody else. Go with your gut as its often better to apologize than it is to wait for permission.
On a side note, I can recall contacting you and requesting access to YOU at Lederach rather than the course itself. It sealed the deal for me to include Lederach in my Philly itinerary because you were playing. I was the lucky one because it isn't often one gets to play with the archie on such an interesting course.
Ciao
-
I have been very fortunate to be able to play some great golf courses in America because of my affiliation with GolfClubAtlas.com, but it hasn't come through cold calling or badgering members of private clubs, it's come through participation in the wonderful GCA outings and meeting people at those events.
Invitations seem to naturally flow if you mind your manners and have a good time. Even if there weren't invitations, the events themselves are typically played over some fine golf courses. I'm talking here about the King's Putter, Dixie Cup and Buda Cup. Some new events like the Midwest Mashie and less formal events such as the Kingsley Club outing and Creek Club (Sweeney fundraiser) and others have popped up, more or less open to GCA.com participants.
Anyone who hasn't taken advantage of these opportunities is shortchanging him or herself. Once you have played golf or broken bread with someone, it's tough to get into a barroom brawl with them on the website.
I
-
I wonder what proportion of the contacts that have Jeff and Pat's panties in a wad have come from actual participants in the forum. It's one thing if they're getting cold called by the Sean Arbles and Bill McBrides and Kelly Blake Morans. But I rather suspect more often it's someone who may not even be a member of the forum who just Googles up a discussion of whatever "trophy" course and then grabs the name of someone they think has connections.
To the extent it is the latter category they are totally wasting their time complaining here. Those people are immune to any criticism or pressure they might think they're bringing to bear. And there ain't a darned thing Pat or for that matter Ran can do about that kind of attention other than quit participating in public discussions or take the forum off the 'net all together.
So do we have any idea how big a "problem" this is in terms of access request coming from, let's say, people who have actually posted in forum discussions at some point in time versus others?
-
Brent,
Can you get me on Columbia Country Club?
-
Sure. I could probably even get Jeff Fortson on...as long as he doesn't want to play on a weekend. :-*
Just kidding!
P.S. The group will have definitely jumped the shark on the day I have to worry about fielding too many requests for access to my club.
-
You have presented next to no evidence - those are the facts.
Sean, you remain obtuse and in denial.
TEPaul, myself and others have discussed this issue off site on numerous occassions.
I related how TEPaul got an inordinate number of calls.
Then TEPaul confirmed that he's received 40-50 calls.
That's a FACT.
Jeff Fortson stated that he received an inordinate number of calls for access.
That's a fact.
Then I stated that I received an inordinate number of calls from total strangers, probably 50.
That's a fact.
I've also received numerous calls from non-strangers, and in almost every case have accomodated them.
That's a fact.
Yet, you continue to regurgitate your party line, that no evidence has been presented.
Have someone read the posts to you as you're clearly not comprehending them.
Now you say up to 50 people have cold called you. If this is the case, that is probably somewhere in the region of once every other month since you have been on the board.
I didn't say 50 people have cold called me since I've been on this board, that's your erroneous conclusion.
I was just recounting from the last few years.
The total since my introduction is much higher.
Then add in Jeff's numbers, TEPaul' numbers and other's numbers and maybe, just maybe you'll begin to understand the situation.
But, it doesn't matter if it's once a week, or once a month, it's inappropriate.
Post your public notice under your name or at the bottom of your posts.
My contention has been because relatively few people have hassled relateeively few people on this board that it isn't a board problem.
"Relatively few" have hassled ?
The numbers are very substantial and your attempt to minimize the numbers is disengenuous on your part.
Your problem is that you have NO experience in this area, but, you continue to dismiss the statements and experiences of Jeff, TEPaul, myself and others.
It is a board/GCA.com problem since the board/GCA.com is the sole source of the offenders.
You just don't get it.
You nor anybody else hasn't produced anywhere near enough info to convince we have an epidemic problem on the board. Again, I could be wrong, but without the facts...
Now you're going to use a word of extremes, "epidemic", which is nothing more than another disengenuous attempt to justify your opinion/contention.
You just don't get it.
I do very much get that your problem is a series of incidents not directed at the board, that is why I suggest you handle these incidents privately - they are not a board issue. If you feel you must post a public notice use the space below your name or at the bottom of your post. That lets people know in no uncertain terms how you feel without hvaing to rehash this same subject every year.
I don't rehash the subject every year, that's just another erroneous statement on your part.
Jeff Fortson initiated the thread and I merely confirmed that it's a problem, as did TEPaul.
No, I am not a member of one of the elite clubs, but I do get cold calls for games.
The diffeence is I don't mind, but I fully understand that others would and that is why I wouldn't cold call someone.
When an acquaintance calls, I don't mind.
When a stranger calls, it's an imposition.
When did I ever give you the impression that I support folf cold calling you or anybody elese except for myself?
In just about every reply you've posted.
There is no need to fal back on accusations that are clearly not accurate merely because it is my opinion that cold calling is a problem for a few people on the board rather than a wide spread issue which can't be dealt with in a private manner.
Remind me again, how are you going to prevent lurkers from calling ?
This leads me to my final point, when did I ever give you the impression that you need to publicy take folks to task for cold calling?
I have repeatedly stated these issues should be dealt with privately because they ARE NOT BOARD ISSUES.
Of course they're board issues.
The BOARD is the SOLE SOURCE of the callers.
What part of that don't you get ?
You are known for pulling switches with your argumentative behaviour, but at least try and be clever about it.
I try to be clever, but when the person you're dealing with is incredibly obtuse, you have to be brutally candid.
I'm content to come to grips with the fact that you just don't get it.
Thank you for the invite, but I would rather an apology for your pointless insults and a gesture that you will in the future refrain from needlessly insulting folks on this board. It is all too common an occurrence which serves no positive purpose.
You had a better chance of getting and invite than an apology, and now you've got neither.
-
I wonder what proportion of the contacts that have Jeff and Pat's panties in a wad have come from actual participants in the forum. It's one thing if they're getting cold called by the Sean Arbles and Bill McBrides and Kelly Blake Morans. But I rather suspect more often it's someone who may not even be a member of the forum who just Googles up a discussion of whatever "trophy" course and then grabs the name of someone they think has connections.
Brent, I think lurkers may be the problem.
I've been happy to host participants from the site that I've had some interaction with, but, when a total stranger calls and invites themselves and tells me on what date and what time they can play, with no regard for my schedule, that's inappropriate, irrespective of what Sean Arble thinks.
To the extent it is the latter category they are totally wasting their time complaining here.
Those people are immune to any criticism or pressure they might think they're bringing to bear.
And there ain't a darned thing Pat or for that matter Ran can do about that kind of attention other than quit participating in public discussions or take the forum off the 'net all together.
To a degree, I agree with you.
Some people just don't get it.
Look at Sean Arble for example. ;D
There's a line in the movie, "Midnight Express" where one party tells another that "The bad machines don't know that they're bad"
He was referencing people.
Sometimes people don't know that they're crossing the line in terms of unacceptable behavior.
Sometimes a reminder that certain things are a "no-no" goes a long way.
When AW is considered Taboo, perhaps it will diminish.
So do we have any idea how big a "problem" this is in terms of access request coming from, let's say, people who have actually posted in forum discussions at some point in time versus others?
I don't keep track and I doubt the others do.
About an hour ago someone I know from this board IM'd me and asked for help getting on a certain course.
I indicated that I had zero influence at that course, but, if they wanted to play another course in the area, I'd be happy to set it up.
Now I realize that this exceeds Sean Arble's once a month quota, but, I'm more than happy to help this person gain access to a nice golf course.
Hope that helps
-
Not from you, Pat, but from other long-time members of the forum I had heard tales of "lurkers" seeing a name here and cold-calling. Which is why I speculated it may a large portion of the problem (although I'm sure not all of it). That's a tough one to effectively head off no matter how we conduct ourselves, although nothing wrong with publicly pointing out that it's unacceptable behavior.
-
I wonder what proportion of the contacts that have Jeff and Pat's panties in a wad have come from actual participants in the forum. It's one thing if they're getting cold called by the Sean Arbles and Bill McBrides and Kelly Blake Morans. But I rather suspect more often it's someone who may not even be a member of the forum who just Googles up a discussion of whatever "trophy" course and then grabs the name of someone they think has connections.
Brent, it couldn't be me. Kindly refer to my post #279 above. ;D
-
I have to tell you guys that I am honestly sick of reading about this topic. Why don't we just get it over with and name names? Let's just have a one-time public outing of everybody who has done it and be done with it? Let's see who is sorry and contrite and see who simply doesn't get it and fights it?
At a bare minimum, it'll put an end to threads like these... :)
That doesn't qualify as a bare minimum.
-
At a bare minimum, it'll put an end to threads like these... :)
Would it? Few of these things are black and white, mostly they involve shades of gray. One man's access issues is another's clever networker.
I can't tell you how many times I've posted a thread about a golf course and someone sent me a message saying, why didn't you call me if you were in the area? I've also had numerous people tell me, you should have told me you were in that area, I know several members at such and such that would have helped you out. I didn't because that's not me.
I did contact someone one time, on behalf of another friend who had terminal cancer and has since passed. It led to quite a few interesting posts on here, to say the least. What does that make me?
Is there a problem? Sure. Is it any bigger than the access issue for golf in general? I don't know. I feel bad for people like Pat, Tom and Jeff, but I think the problem is with people and golf in general, not necessarily this site.
-
I wonder what proportion of the contacts that have Jeff and Pat's panties in a wad have come from actual participants in the forum. It's one thing if they're getting cold called by the Sean Arbles and Bill McBrides and Kelly Blake Morans. But I rather suspect more often it's someone who may not even be a member of the forum who just Googles up a discussion of whatever "trophy" course and then grabs the name of someone they think has connections.
Brent, it couldn't be me. Kindly refer to my post #279 above. ;D
Bill,
Agreed. It totally couldn't be you.
-
You have presented next to no evidence - those are the facts.
Sean, you remain obtuse and in denial.
TEPaul, myself and others have discussed this issue off site on numerous occassions.
I related how TEPaul got an inordinate number of calls.
Then TEPaul confirmed that he's received 40-50 calls.
That's a FACT.
Jeff Fortson stated that he received an inordinate number of calls for access.
That's a fact.
Then I stated that I received an inordinate number of calls from total strangers, probably 50.
That's a fact.
I've also received numerous calls from non-strangers, and in almost every case have accomodated them.
That's a fact.
Yet, you continue to regurgitate your party line, that no evidence has been presented.
Have someone read the posts to you as you're clearly not comprehending them.
Now you say up to 50 people have cold called you. If this is the case, that is probably somewhere in the region of once every other month since you have been on the board.
I didn't say 50 people have cold called me since I've been on this board, that's your erroneous conclusion.
I was just recounting from the last few years.
The total since my introduction is much higher.
Then add in Jeff's numbers, TEPaul' numbers and other's numbers and maybe, just maybe you'll begin to understand the situation.
But, it doesn't matter if it's once a week, or once a month, it's inappropriate.
Post your public notice under your name or at the bottom of your posts.
My contention has been because relatively few people have hassled relateeively few people on this board that it isn't a board problem.
"Relatively few" have hassled ?
The numbers are very substantial and your attempt to minimize the numbers is disengenuous on your part.
Your problem is that you have NO experience in this area, but, you continue to dismiss the statements and experiences of Jeff, TEPaul, myself and others.
It is a board/GCA.com problem since the board/GCA.com is the sole source of the offenders.
You just don't get it.
You nor anybody else hasn't produced anywhere near enough info to convince we have an epidemic problem on the board. Again, I could be wrong, but without the facts...
Now you're going to use a word of extremes, "epidemic", which is nothing more than another disengenuous attempt to justify your opinion/contention.
You just don't get it.
I do very much get that your problem is a series of incidents not directed at the board, that is why I suggest you handle these incidents privately - they are not a board issue. If you feel you must post a public notice use the space below your name or at the bottom of your post. That lets people know in no uncertain terms how you feel without hvaing to rehash this same subject every year.
I don't rehash the subject every year, that's just another erroneous statement on your part.
Jeff Fortson initiated the thread and I merely confirmed that it's a problem, as did TEPaul.
No, I am not a member of one of the elite clubs, but I do get cold calls for games.
The diffeence is I don't mind, but I fully understand that others would and that is why I wouldn't cold call someone.
When an acquaintance calls, I don't mind.
When a stranger calls, it's an imposition.
When did I ever give you the impression that I support folf cold calling you or anybody elese except for myself?
In just about every reply you've posted.
There is no need to fal back on accusations that are clearly not accurate merely because it is my opinion that cold calling is a problem for a few people on the board rather than a wide spread issue which can't be dealt with in a private manner.
Remind me again, how are you going to prevent lurkers from calling ?
This leads me to my final point, when did I ever give you the impression that you need to publicy take folks to task for cold calling?
I have repeatedly stated these issues should be dealt with privately because they ARE NOT BOARD ISSUES.
Of course they're board issues.
The BOARD is the SOLE SOURCE of the callers.
What part of that don't you get ?
You are known for pulling switches with your argumentative behaviour, but at least try and be clever about it.
I try to be clever, but when the person you're dealing with is incredibly obtuse, you have to be brutally candid.
I'm content to come to grips with the fact that you just don't get it.
Thank you for the invite, but I would rather an apology for your pointless insults and a gesture that you will in the future refrain from needlessly insulting folks on this board. It is all too common an occurrence which serves no positive purpose.
You had a better chance of getting and invite than an apology, and now you've got neither.
Now I feel bad. A missed day of golf with Pat Mucci. Maybe in my next life if "I just get it".
Ciao
-
It cannot be me, I have never asked and anyway my back has stopped me play golf. So guys, on this it can not be my fault, I am not Guilty of asking anyone for ‘the courtesy of the course’.
Also as I have never been to the States I am not guilty there either, so you will have to blame another this time. ;)
Melvyn
PS Pat Sean, you two are better than this so come on stop this madness
-
Why in the world hasn't this train-wreck of a thread been deleted? It could be the worst, most useless, thread I've ever read on this site and it only seems to be getting worse.
As a side note and something more "on topic" I really don't think I've ever actually participated in active AW-ing with anyone on this site, but if for some reason I've ever come across as doing so with a member on here I appologize. As I said before on this thread I find no harm in people e-mailing/messaging other members that they know that live in a certain area that they will be looking for a game. IMO I think that's the best part of this website and the reason I always tell people to let me know if they are ever in the Chicago area.
I can and can't imagine the whole access issue is that big of a deal. On one hand you have people that clearly care about playing top 100 courses and will do everything in their power to do so. But then again I can't imagine that there are that many of them bold enough to just e-mail members of this site out of the blue to set up access. From some of the posts above you would think that the GCA members getting these requests are suffering serious trauma. I would suggest to them to just hit the delete button when one of those messages come in.
Whatever...it's just an online niche discussion board at the end of the day! :)
-
Was going to stay out of this as I'm not sure it adds anything to the discussion but I've received probably 20 messages to play. Several I have accepted as I've read past posts of theirs and found them to be interesting people - others I've denied as I couldn't make it fit into my schedule and others I've just plain ignored. I have to say, I haven't had a request in a year so maybe that aspect of the site is gone.
More often than not though, I would like to play with most on here and would doubly like to take them out to play at my home course. Unfortunately, my rounds are limited now so it is difficult.
All the above being said, I think they should be some rapport with a "host" before someone hits someone up for access. I have to say, I don't think I would ever ask under any circumstances but that's just me. Also, I do have the luxury of having my pro call and 99% of the time - I can play whereever. (which I know others may disagree but I find it to be a perfectly acceptible way of playing different courses - as I enjoy hosting others at my club).
I guess the long and short of it - this site hasn't jumped the shark....and certainly hasn't in the last 3 years due to merely access whoring. I have made a lot of good e-friends on here (twitter friends as well) and still enjoy it when I can. The delete button can always be used when getting access emails despite its 2 second annoyance.
So - let's keep calm and carry on.
-
I wonder what proportion of the contacts that have Jeff and Pat's panties in a wad have come from actual participants in the forum. It's one thing if they're getting cold called by the Sean Arbles and Bill McBrides and Kelly Blake Morans. But I rather suspect more often it's someone who may not even be a member of the forum who just Googles up a discussion of whatever "trophy" course and then grabs the name of someone they think has connections.
Brent, it couldn't be me. Kindly refer to my post #279 above. ;D
Bill,
Agreed. It totally couldn't be you.
Unless I'm coming to Columbia! ;D
-
If I hear the McBride's are going to be here in town I'll be the one calling you up to arrange a game. What is the proper term of art of reverse-access-whoring?
-
If I hear the McBride's are going to be here in town I'll be the one calling you up to arrange a game. What is the proper term of art of reverse-access-whoring?
Courtesy? ;)
-
For my part, I hope the shark is un-jumped and I will gladly sift through the smut for the chance of learning and enjoying from the ample "meat" of quality posts that endure.
This site has much to offer:
I've made dozens of friends through this discussion group (DG) and enjoyed their company on dozens of public courses, along with a handful of stellar private layouts. 90+% of the DG participants I've played with I would eagerly join again, regardless of venue.
I've also learned a great deal from contributors of the industry (e.g. superintendents, shapers and practicing GCAs) that post here. It is an absolute treat and pleasure -- even the dry stuff can be fascinating at times. We should all consider ourselves fortunate to enjoy this priviledge.
Sure, the copious amount of extraneos and superficial posts detract from the greater glory what many would consider the ideal for the discussion group. Constant effort should be invested to maintain or improve the quality of this DG. In this regard, I thank Mr. Fortson for bringing attention to what he sees as poisonous trends that threaten the balance.
Generally, the biggest threat I see involves negative comments made about fellow posters. Would it not be best to post almost exclusively about GCA-related items -- a few friendly quips and jokes notwithstanding?
I see no reason to make negative comments about other posters on the DG board. If you disagree with someone else's opinion, offer yours in counterpoint. If you dislike the manner in which they post or any other aspect of their persona, send them a private message.
Stay classy, DG.
-
Alas, here it is...
Completely explained!!!
http://tv.yahoo.com/blog/happy-days-writer-breaks-silence-show-did-not-jump-the-shark--1513 (http://tv.yahoo.com/blog/happy-days-writer-breaks-silence-show-did-not-jump-the-shark--1513)
-
I went to a hockey game and a GCA thread broke out.
aNTHONY
-
Anthony,
You are being far too disrespectful......to hockey. Unlike this place, its a game of skill and grace. If you are ever in DFW, betwen October and April, let me know and I will show you what a great sport it is to watch. If the #$!(*## Stars manage to make the playoffs this year, extend that from October to May or even June.
-
Anthony,
You are being far too disrespectful......to hockey. Unlike this place, its a game of skill and grace. If you are ever in DFW, betwen October and April, let me know and I will show you what a great sport it is to watch. If the #$!(*## Stars manage to make the playoffs this year, extend that from October to May or even June.
Very graceful....like toothless ice dancing.