Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on July 06, 2010, 06:16:36 AM
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Founded in 1892, Royal Cinque Ports' (aka Deal) first 9 holes are to have been designed by Ramsay Hunter, the greenkeeper at Sandwich and construction supervised by Harry Hunter (Ramsay's brother), the greenkeeper at Deal. It only took a few years for the club to gain traction when it decided to acquire land for 9 additional holes designed by Harry Hunter. After disastrous flooding in 1897, the extension didn't open until 1899. The Ladies British Open was soon after held at Deal, thus initiating the club's long and sometimes rocky road as a host of such events. It was on the cards that an Open would come to Deal and it came to pass in 1909. JH Taylor easily won the 4th of his five Opens. Deal looked set to be a regular stop in the Open rota, sadly, this wasn't to be the case. Mother nature in the form of flooding and politics in the guise of world wars scuppered Deal's hopes of hosting the Open in 1915, 1938, 1942 and 1949. It came to pass that only one more Open would come to Deal, a very popular win by George Duncan in 1920. Onto the course.
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#2 Approach
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The third is a lovely hole the length of a par 4, but quite often plays like a par 5. With the new changes, I am not sure what the par is! In any case, the tee was pushed well left to ensure the safety of the walkers along the beach wall. Before and after.
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Unless one is very long the second plays over the spectacle bunkers to a puncbowl green...I believe one of only three original Hunter greens remaining. If the hole is forward I reckon the idea is to try and bang the approach off the base of the 4th tee and hope one gets a reasonable birdie putt. Coming from the left side of the fairway, there is a wee bit of space on the right side of the green which leaves a decent chance for a two putt birdie.
In the old days.
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Right of the green looking toward 4 tee.
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Front.
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Back.
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I think the one-shotters are the weakness of Deal. Still, I like the 4th despite some rather silly rough too tight to the back left of the green. Of course, the 4th used to be one of the more famous holes in British golf. Known as Sandy Parlour, the green was well left of the 3rd green and right of the 17th tee. The blind green was approached from a tee near what is now the sea wall. The current version was created in time for the would be 1938 Open.
Sandy Parlour
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Today
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While not a bad hole if a bit too similar to #2, #5 is not a par 5 which comes close to the interest and charm of #s 3 & 16. The club should consider playing the forward tee as the daily tee, par 4. The 6th is one of the great short 4s in golf. Ironically, Deal's long time benefactor and owner refused to play the hole. Sir Aynsley Bridgland, the Australian entrepreneur, wanted to straighten the hole and place the green near the 14th green. His very good friend and then President of Deal, Jack Aisher, persuaded Sir Aynsley to leave well enough alone. Usually the focus is on the approach and rightfully so. However, the mix of tees available is also a strength which keeps the player guessing as to the best play on the day. I have played previously where I just gave driver a go at the green and was successful. Below is the approach after a sensible lay-up. There aren't many holes I have played 5 iron off the tee and a scuttling 6 iron approach! One can see how the green opens up if the drive is well past the hill.
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The 7th is Deal's ace up the sleeve. Often treated as a walk-over, with the prevailing wind quartering off the left and a tricky hole location, #7 can quickly be recognized as one of the better holes on the course.
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Holes 8-12 were radically redesigned in time for the 1920 Open with the helping hand of James Braid. Except for Sandy Parlour, the course as presented for that Open is the same routing played today.
Depending on the wind, the 8th can either be a good hole or a decent hole. Despite the large green, when downwind there is very little room for maneuver. That said, the club has improved the area behind the green so rocks are less of an issue and instead there is a place to miss when the wind isn't cooperative.
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Roundtree's vision of the hole.
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The 9th has one of the best placed bunkers on the course guarding the left corner off the tee. In a good wind it can seem as if there is no fairway at all!
The back nine has a few hitches to accompany its brilliance. First, the 11th is too similar to the 9th. Second, I don't care for the similar tee shot look at #s 13 & 15. Attacking these bunkers successfully, or at least the right bunkers, leads to a lie in the rough. I also don't believe these bunkers really guard the best line for the approach (a problem noted for other bunkers as well), but this would obviously depend greatly on the wind. Finally, despite many claims to the contrary, play seems to be a beat back into a headwind or a some sort of quartering crosswind for too many successive holes. Despite these reservations, there is some cracking golf to be had - starting with #10. I am particularly enamoured with good use of flat land. The tenth may be my favourite at Deal due to its somewhat obscured driving line and how the flag beckons to the left, beyond troubling rough, a ditch a hollow and a large bunker. This bunker recently replaced a pot bunker. Some believe, this change has softened the hole because there is a play from the bunker to the green. The pot bunker made any such recovery very unlikely.
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The 11th begins the back nine proper. In a 20mph prevailing wind its probably best to treat the last eight holes as par 5s - 40 shots isn't at all bad for the final eight holes. Many of the greens at Deal are by nature repelling. The 12th on the other hand is unusually quite receptive.
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The 13th has yet to make much of an impression on me. This most recent trip provided me with an opportunity to reassess the 14th. Given that its big hitter golf coming back at Deal, I think a much shorter hole would provide for a better rhythm. Even so, if more space were provided down the right the hole would be improved. I did play it from the 170 yard tees on one game - much better hole to my way of thinking.
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Bunkers are down the right and a bank left.
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Turning right and playing over bounding ground, the 15th is an excellent if very difficult two-shotter.
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16 may well be the most loved hole at Deal and why not? The approach for aggressive players is likely one of the best they will face anywhere especially if the hole is up front. Flat bellies will often try to carry the ridge onto a small blind landing zone short of the green and hope the ball feeds to the green - slowly. I suspect, as is the case nearly everywhere else, Deal's fairways have shrunk. Carrying the right hand bunkers on 13 and 15 results in play from the rough. In the case of this hole, its a good angle if the wind isn't howling off right. Recently, the fairway was extended quite a bit to the left. I suspect this is basically a restoration as there used to be additional fairway. It is now possible to flank the green for a good angle should the hole be located up front. This is a controversial change to a much admired hole. I don't think there is any doubt the added width has softened the hole, but that may be the price to pay for options.
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The Valley of Indecision.
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The new left side of the fairway.
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#17, while not long, can play so. The fairway is quite similar to #3, a roller coaster which can leave a very tough approach for such a short hole. The first photo was taken on top of the hill, a short drive.
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Most people wouldn't choose the final hole as one of their favourites, but I love the look of the raised green. Despite holding the opinion that the entire plateau should be green, this green-site helps foster variety which Deal's par 4s has in spades.
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A look at what was the 9th circa 1895, which is now the 18th. As one would expect, conditions were far more rough and ready.
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I have always believed the terrain at Deal is ideal for golf and perhaps I have been overly critical of the out n' back routing in the past. However, the shape of the property isn't great for golf and this is probably the critical factor in my not taking to Deal as much as others do. The bottom line is the final seven holes can be a terrible slog. Maybe half of the best terrain on the property is eaten up by beating back into the wind when the number one priority is distance. It seems a shame for these lovely ground contours not to be used for more intricate play-making rather than simply banging driver-wood. Be that as it may, Deal has as good a set of par 4s as any course I know. Throw in the 16th, the newly improved 4th (the soup in the rear of the green seems less severe) and an imaginative set of greens and this is a recipe for an unquestionably great course. 2* 2019
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An incredible set of photos by Jason Livy which are equally beautiful and relevant.
www.jasonlivy.com/golf/golf-courses/royal-cinque-ports-golf-club/#section1 (http://www.jasonlivy.com/golf/golf-courses/royal-cinque-ports-golf-club/#section1)
Ciao[/url]
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Sean, glad you had fun. W.r.t the bunkering at Prince's, currently this is being revised. All are being refurbished, many moved. The club had hoped to be further along, but the very wet winter hampered it (hard to believe now I expect but the 9th Dunes was underwater for much of the winter).
I agree about the "sameness" of the driver, in additional to your suggestion, I'd also love to see some routing to cross the dunes on one or two holes, but not sure if it will ever happen.
Next time you're down, look me up. Tony had mentioned your trip and I had hoped to hook up with you guys, but work got in the way (I'm writing this from a sweltering Muscat)
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Next time you're down, look me up. Tony had mentioned your trip and I had hoped to hook up with you guys, but work got in the way (I'm writing this from a sweltering Muscat)
I thought the shock of going from the 50F Kent coast back home to 95F was extreme. By comparison to Jamie's change it climate I got off easy enough! Of course it'll still be 95F here in August when Jamie is back home enjoying a English late summer.
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Sean-
Finally you see the error of your ways re: Deal.. I could nitpick you to death on your review. #3 has that short bunker because the tee is going back to make it a 570y par 5.. That bunker will be very very much in play then.. The fairway has shifted over to accomodate this as well..
#10-- Sir Guy Campbell said the hole's greatness affected him like the blow of an angel's wing
No love for the new seawall tees on #7 and 9?
How could you forget #15 or #17 in your pix? You do have a nice one of the Valley of Inglorious Security on #16
And I could disagree with your depiction of the par 3s..
Sadly, Deal has just seen its club secretary resign. The club has done well under his aegis, I hope they get a worthy replacement.
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Sean, you must have had so much fun at Deal! The course looks like it is at its ultimate firm and fast condition, making those little humps and bumps even more devilish.
I was struck by the one stretch of green grass--the valley in front of 16 green. That low-lying area is what makes the hole so maddening to me. The second shot will not bounce up as much as it should, meaning that two good shots often leave a vexing pitch shot to the raised green. The last 150 yards of the 16 is an unbelievable combination of ground features that make for big swings in fortune. Although I loved the 3rd at Deal, I think the 16th is the best three-shotter between Sandwich and Deal.
One correction: you're last photo of the 16th is really a picture of the 15th green. I'm surprised you didn't feature the 15th in your essay, as it is the most interesting of Deal's many long par fours. I also dig the par fours at 7 (a Mark Chaplin favorite), 12, 13, and especially 17. Is there a better stretch of golfing terrain than the 17th at Deal?
The 6th is an all-time favorite, one that grows on me after each play. That green is just phenomenal, especially because it does not clearly favor a ground approach or a aerial approach. I think the seawall actually makes this hole better, because it means the golfer is rewarded for stuffing a tee shot into the long-left portion of the fairway. An approach looking directly into that seawall behind the green is much more comfortable than one looking across the narrow portion of the green from the right. I love the 6th, and it might be favorite at Deal.
As for the 18th, I do think it is an underrated hole. The tee shot asks the golfer to challenge the left side of the fairway for the best angle into the green. The raised green is nearly impossible to judge, both on the second shot and on putts outside of 15 feet. It is a very solid closer. However, I can't say it is one of my favorites at Deal. I would pick all of the par fours I named above ahead of it.
Just out of curiousity, why do you think Sandwich is better than Deal? Aren't the best holes of the two found at Deal? Does Deal have any holes that are measurably weaker than the weakest ones at Sandwch? I feel Deal has a charm about it that Sandwich cannot match, and Deal has the balance of challenge and fun to back up this charm.
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Just out of curiousity, why do you think Sandwich is better than Deal? Aren't the best holes of the two found at Deal? Does Deal have any holes that are measurably weaker than the weakest ones at Sandwch? I feel Deal has a charm about it that Sandwich cannot match, and Deal has the balance of challenge and fun to back up this charm.
The sixth and tenth at Deal are second to none in my estimation. As individual holes go, the tenth is probably my favorite two-shotter ever. But two things elevate Royal St. Georges above (almost) all other courses, Royal Cinque Ports included...
One is that thing they have going on with the fairway contours where there is often a tight (in some cases almost impossibly tight) driving target offering a clear advantage for ones approach. Yet on the same holes there is ample fairway that even a hacker playing in a breeze can find, offering safe haven and to one extent or another a manageable second shot. It seems fairly easy to build a hole that offers an exacting tee shot and punishes anything less. In my experience it is a rarity to find a hole that offers an accessible tee shot and rewards a more precise position. Yet I'd think the latter is very much a GCA ideal.
The other thing about Sandwich is harder to define. The scope and scale of the dunesland, the close alternation of seclusion and huge vistas as one walks along the course, the sound of the breeze in the grass, the frequent sight of St. Georges Cross flying in front of the clubhouse (often from a great distance viewed across wonderfully up-and-down terrain) and just generally a wonderful "Big" vibe that contrasts with the more homey and individually-scaled feel of Deal. I feel at home (even as an infrequent visitor) at Deal but feel like a tiny figure adrift on something much larger at Sandwich and I have to admit I enjoy the latter feeling immensely.
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Sadly, the full profile for Deal I wrote for the World Atlas of Golf didnt make the cut--although if you have the book a good part of the text made it into the England introduction.. In it, I said (and I am not the first to say it), there is NO course in the UK that has a closer spirit, ethos and similarity to the Old Course than Deal..
Why?
1) Routing-- both are narrow affairs out and back, with a loop at the turn
2) The first holes are very similar short par 4s with a ditch in front
3) You are by the sea but never really see it (changed now a bit with Deal's seawall tees).. Obviously before the sea-wall Deal didnt have that nature.
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Sadly, the full profile for Deal I wrote for the World Atlas of Golf didnt make the cut--although if you have the book a good part of the text made it into the England introduction.. In it, I said (and I am not the first to say it), there is NO course in the UK that has a closer spirit, ethos and similarity to the Old Course than Deal..
Why?
1) Routing-- both are narrow affairs out and back, with a loop at the turn
2) The first holes are very similar short par 4s with a ditch in front
3) You are by the sea but never really see it (changed now a bit with Deal's seawall tees).. Obviously before the sea-wall Deal didnt have that nature.
Noel, I finally got to Deal last September for the Buda and thoroughly enjoyed my four rounds there. What a great walk in the park and yes, it does remind you of the Old Course for the reasons cited above. A few of us are returning in mid-September this year pre-Buda, join us if you're in the neighborhood!
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I feel at home (even as an infrequent visitor) at Deal but feel like a tiny figure adrift on something much larger at Sandwich and I have to admit I enjoy the latter feeling immensely.
Maybe that's one reason why I prefer Deal to Sandwich. I have a feeling of warmth and closeness when I play Deal. Deal is a test, but the charm keeps the course very close to my soul. Sandwich, while grand, feels grand, distant, and almost alienating. I felt like I could never get to know and love Sandwich in the way that I love Deal. That is why I would rather play Deal any time.
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By the way, I love Sean's title for this thread: "Kent Kaleidoscope!"
Other areas of the UK stake their claims, but it's hard to find a better stretch of seaside links than Rye - Littlestone - Deal - Princes (which I'm excited to be seeing in September) - Sandwich. Each is unique, all are exciting golf over great ground.
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Tuco
I like all of the par 4s without exception though several are not in anyway exceptional. The par 3s are all flawed however. #8 should be a cracker (and nearly is), but the bunker scheme is too tight. #14 is okay, but I don't tend to be a big fan of long par 3s. #4 is the best of the lot and would be better if the rough to the rear left was hacked down. The penalty for hitting the green and being fed into junk is too harsh - more is the pity.
John
I don't think Deal has the best holes because the 4th at Sandwich is the best of all of them. For me, the changing wind direction is a huge plus at Sandwich. I like the massive amount of space and yet the holes all link together in a sensible routing. I also think the par 3s at Sandwich while not a great set (with the 3rd not impressing me at all) is better than Deal's. Finally, I think Sandwich is more playable. There is more space to play the game whereas Deal feels a bit too tight when the wind blows. Its nothing that a bit of rough hacking can't cure.
Next up - PRINCES SHORE & DUNES: The 2017-18 Winter Tour Rambles On
Let me get this off my chest immediately. I despise the three nine hole loop system. There is always a combo which either most want to play or is considered the best. It is clear Princes markets the Shore/Dunes combo as the championship course so why not call it the 18 holer with the Himalayas designated as the 9 holer? Phew!
With the fortunes of Sandwich going from strength to strength over the past 100 plus years and Deal being a club much in prominence as well, it should be remembered there was a time when Princes was perhaps considered the premier club among the three. After WWI, Princes came into its own due to its connection with the London set. The membership roll counted many very prominent families of great influence which included the Astors, Slazengers, Playfairs, Wighams and du Mauriers. The great and good of the Services, London clubs and Parliamentarians were also well represented at Princes. It should be no surprise then that the 1922 Ladies Open was chosen to be played at Princes. The storied Joyce Wethered (later Lady Heachcote-Amory) won the first of four Ladies Opens that year with a devestating 9 & 7 victory over Cecil Leitch. The quality of Wethered's play was widely recognized. The Scottish Professional, Willie Wilson, commented "Why mon, she could hit the ball 240 yards on the fly while standing barefoot on a cake of ice." Bobby Jones said he doubted if there had been a better golfer, man or woman. In the Associated Press's 50 year poll in 1950, Wethered ranked 7th among all golfers! The six golfers listed higher were Jones, Hogan, Hagen, Snead, Nelson and Sarazen!
It is easy to see why Bobby Jones and Walter Hagen admired her swing!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivo0n49U3aI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivo0n49U3aI)
The club owes an immense debt of gratitute to Sir Aynsley Bridgland, who in 1950 engaged Sir Guy Campbell and John Morrison (courses completed in 1956) to breath life back in Princes after the destruction by WWII training exercises. To those with some knowledge of British golf architecture, this combination of architects may sound highly unusual. However, the arrangement is even more strange as apparently Campbell and Morrison worked individually on the project rather than as a team. Sadly, I do not know which architect designed which holes. Be that as it may, the club would never regain its pre-war prominence which likely reached a peak when the club hosted the 1932 Open won by Gene Sarazen. At the time, the winning score of 283 (-13), leading wire to wire was an Open record. Despite wartime damage, 14 of the original Percy Lucas(?) green sites (consulting architects included H Fowler, M Fergusson and C Hutchinson) were incorporated into a new layout of 27 holes, yet no hole of complete orginal stock survives. We now have a course which is very good indeed, even if not quite of the character which once existed at Princes.
www.theopen.com/sitecore/content/Home/Heritage/OpenVenues/Princes/1932 (http://www.theopen.com/sitecore/content/Home/Heritage/OpenVenues/Princes/1932)
The Shore/Dunes combo is chocker block with fine holes and I dare say the Dunes 9 stands up very well with the front nine of Sandwich and the back nine of Deal. Hole after hole is full of interest and fun. Many of the green sites are wonderful and the putting surfaces have enough interest to keep golfers engaged. However, I will say that like Deal, the rough is harsh when playing in a cross wind (like Birkdale, Princes is in the main a crosswind design) and perhaps some concessions in the way of wider fairways should be made for the handicap golfer. Princes can sometimes be found in more primitive condition than either Sandwich or Deal, but not to the point where it is a detriment to one’s enjoyment. Many believe a singular drawback to the design is many of the drives look similar as they progress between low lying dunes. I am not of that opinion and think the low-lying nature of the terrain still provides for each hole to play differently. That said, Princes would benefit from more holes like #s 1, 5, 6 Dunes and 6 Shore, where the dune ridge is used in a more oblique manner. Of course, a design of this ilk would probably require the use of the Himalaya 9 which would mean only 18 holes would be possible on the property. Finally, I have heard some grumbling about the bunkering, but for the most part their placement is very considered. There are some centre-line bunkers both in driving zones and the approach landing zones which are particularly interesting.
PRINCES SHORE
The course starts off in a difficult way with a straight par 4. Things ease off for a shortish three-shotter before turning about face for the medium length short 3rd.
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Not unlike 1 & 2, the 4th pushes back into the wind toward St Georges. In a way Shores 5 is typical and atypical of Princes. The typical aspect is the player must decide how much of the mini-cape to chew off. The course is littered with this particular decision as many holes move a penny left or a penny right. The atypical aspect is the hole heads over flattish terrain. Still, the effect of a low-lying depression down the entire right side is what makes this hole. Just left of the green (which I believe was the original 18th green) are the new Lodges built on the site of the old clubhouse.
The good golf continues on #6. The fairway snakes along a dune ridge with bunkers pinching on the right. The green is perched on the ridge and reminds me a lot of Cruden Bay's 6th where it is often wise to flank the green right then play up to the ridge. Princes would benefit greatly with more holes such as this which attack the dune lines. The main feature of the Princes skyline was the Richborough Power Station; it was torn down a few years ago.
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The approach can plague one with thoughts of how far left can I go and still be safe?
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A look at the green from the right.
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Heading in the same direction as 6, the 7th is decent length three-shotter with a semi-plateau green.
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Turning once gain, we come to the final par 3 on the Shores. The front of the green looks to have been recently re-designed to great effect. The new left bunker is well placed to grab shots floating on the wind. The 9th is a unique hole in my experience. The double ridge fairway can funnel a well placed drive an immense distance. I wouldn't be surprised if flat bellies playing forward tees couldn't reach this green and perhaps the back tees should be eliminated in favour of this sort of set-up.
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PRINCES DUNES
The Dunes is easily the best nine on the property. The opener is a brutal two-shotter of some 439 yards. Once again the golfer is asked to choose a line off the tee with extreme caution, aggression and everything inbetween being on offer. I don't recall the bunkers in the face of the ridge; perhaps they are new. In truth, the sand doesn't change the strategy though the three bunkers do offer a different look to most of the course. No matter which line off the tee is chosen, all must cope with the centre-line bunker some 30 or so yards short of the green. I am trying to think of a more severe green for such a long approach and can't come up with an example to beat this. There can't be more than 20 feet between steep drop-offs right and left. In truth, this green is likely too severe, but what a wonderful hole regardless. In the first photo below we can still see the derelict clubhouse prior to the construction of the Lodges.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/886/41203740301_c2f3c8c774_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/886/41203740301_c2f3c8c774_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4569/39021204992_24333fb5be_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4569/39021204992_24333fb5be_b.jpg)
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Like Princes itself, the par 3s are likely undervalued. I think they are the best of the Kent links. Richborough before and after photos.
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Perhaps the clutch of vegetation acts a visual block, but if this isn't the case, the hole would be more attractive with a bit of gardening behind the green.
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The third is a fine par 5 with fairly new centre-line bunkers and oob down the right. The slightly raised green is a perfect example of the sublime simplicity which abounds at Princes.
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Next comes a par 4 which has been radically re-worked in recent years. The fairway is unusually generous for Princes, but the hole progressively narrows to a tough green set on a mini mesa.
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The 5th is slightly unusual at Princes because one doesn't go in search of the fairway. Rather, the drive calls for a whack up the middle of a fairway which reassuringly cozies up to the tee...even if the large sleepered bunker on the left causes a second take. The approach to the diagonal plateau green is one of Princes' best.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4727/27275212239_46a1829444_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4727/27275212239_46a1829444_b.jpg)
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The 6th wriggles right around a dune ridge and features a handful of well placed bunkers. The fairway narrows and turns into an elephant's graveyard near the bi-level green.
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Princes is slowly "improving" the look of their bunkers. I do like many of the newer style which have gone more for the dinasaur print look, but I do lament the loss of the rough and ready look. The bunker short and right of the green was a prime example.
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The 7th chugs along without making much of an impact except for the new huge bunker set into the right dune ridge. The outstanding short hole on the course is #8. From the photo it is evident that getting close to this hole location is near on impossible.
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A look at the green from the right side.
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Unfortunately, the side ends with a rather mundane par 4 that lacks the critical joy factor of its neighbouring 9th. But not lets stop this from admiring what I think is a lovely course. Despite Princes getting a load spot on with a largely functional approach to the design, keeping the rough too long and/or fairways too narrow is an issue not to be ignored. Many will rightly say that Princes simply doesn't have the character of terrain which produces the heroic holes of Sandwich and the quirk of Deal. This viewpoint is obviously correct, but not of great importance for all three are expressly divergent and strike me as very comfortable in their own skin. One thing is for certain, the first time visitor to the Kent coast should not forego a game at any of the three links for each is excellent. I leave with you the Finegan's final thoughts on Princes. "There is a purity, an integrity, and challenge to this collection of links holes that I think you will find genuinely satisfying. The Pleasurable excitement is of a subtler, cumulative nature." 1* 2018
Ciao
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Aren't the best holes of the two found at Deal?
I have more limited experience of both courses (though hope to experience Deal again this summer) but whilst Deal has some great holes, I thought the best hole on either course might well have been 4 at RSG. I also think Deal has more average holes. Interesting that neither has a stellar set of par 3s, though I thought 6 at RSG was pretty good, despite what Sean says.
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Conditioning at Prince's is on the up now Troon are in charge. It will take more years but soon I think it will be kept how it should.
The course manager told me that the new hotel in the ruins of the old clubhouse, together with the dormie house, will eventually offer 80 beds, so might make a good base for golfing in kent for visitors.
Brent, natives here are telling me the weather is nice right now, not too hot; it's been topping 40C each day with stifling humidity. Thank goodness for AC.
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Aren't the best holes of the two found at Deal?
I have more limited experience of both courses (though hope to experience Deal again this summer) but whilst Deal has some great holes, I thought the best hole on either course might well have been 4 at RSG. I also think Deal has more average holes. Interesting that neither has a stellar set of par 3s, though I thought 6 at RSG was pretty good, despite what Sean says.
I know, I know, everybody loves the 4th at Sandwich. The dunes and the tee shot bunkers are majestic. The tee to green strategy is very sound. The green is wild and very cool. However, I just cannot get over two things about it.
First, I think the tee shot is a bit awkward. I don't think the angle of the tee shot is suited for the heroic setting of the dunes. The goal is to try and carry as much of the bunkers as possible, yet making the deepest possible carry to the right leaves the golfer in knee-high rough right of the fairway. I think these heroic features are more suited to a "bite off as much as you can chew" type of carry than the current hole. I fully understand that the constraints of the property did not allow for such a carry. Nevertheless, the hole will always remain a bit awkward in my mind.
Second, the green at 4, while very unique, plays the same way to the same pin position each day. The 4th green only has limited areas for hole locations, which makes the hole less interesting in my book. On the other hand, holes like 3, 6, 16, and 17 at Deal all play differently each day, with myriad hole locations to dictate different strategies back to the tee. For these two reasons, Sandwich's 4th does not quite match up to my favorites at Deal.
I think that Deal suffers less from having inferior par threes than does from having only three par threes. I do like all three par threes at Deal. When will you ever find two short threes that are as different as 4 and 8. 4, I think, is especially good because it is so different from the normal short iron par three.
I also love the 14th, which is made great by the prevailing right to left wind. This hole tempts the golfer to throw his tee shot out to the right and let the wind bring it back to the green. Invariably, the golfer will find one of the three greenside bunkers on the right, leaving an impossible up and down. The golfer must swallow his pride here and aim left if he wishes for a good chance at three. However, the farther right he goes, the harder the up and down through the hollow left of the green. The 14th is one that gets better with multiple plays.
With all of that being said, I don't think Deal has any truly great par threes. I saw bunch of par threes in England that were much better than any at Deal during my stay in London. Swinley Forest has five of them, for starters. Of course, Sandwich does not have any great ones either.
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Yes John, only three par 3s is a bummer as I like at least four if not five and possibly six short holes.
PLEASE NOTE: A new tour with better photos was posted...Photobucket strikes again.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60867.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60867.0.html)
Sandwich is usually considered the best of the three, but the margin between it and Deal is slim, ever so slim. Despite the absolute all-world front nine and plethora of superb two-shotters, the course is a bit let down by the 3s and 5s. They aren’t bad holes by any means, but neither of the two par 5s hold my interest for the entire trip and only the short 16th is a hole I could hold up as a “model” par 3. Although, the 6th is hole where the hole placement could alter one’s perception of its quality by quite a margin.
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Like New Zealand in far off Surrey, Sandwich is a course unto its own. "It does not compete with other courses, but it sets its own standard and lives up to it.". Surprisingly, I found Royal St Georges to be the mildest test on offer this weekend. The fairways seemed generous, the hole locations farly benign for the most part and the wind wasn't really a big factor. I am sure the relative ease of Sandwich had a part to play in it being the most enjoyable game of the weekend. However, as Darwin said "...whatever happens the larks will continue to twitter, the sun will be shining on Pegwell Bay: the charm can never be gone." Sandwich also has the element of making one feel alone amongst the dunes. Like the club seems detached from the course by a typical English garden backed by a hedge, the few other golfers seen are somehow removed as if playing a different course.
The first is a good starter which utilizes a hump back fairway. The approach is difficult due to the bunkering.
#2 is a chewer dogleg left. There is an advantage to be gained by taking on the corner bunkers at the turn, but one can easily lay-up and be left with a 9 iron or so. There is a grand swale short right which will catch any approaches not struck firmly enough.
I find the third to be uninspired, but not a poor hole. I would have hoped something a bit more interesting could have been built considering the land. John Lyon is quite right about the 4th. The rough does impede more from the right than it seems it should and the green is very limited for hole locations. However, this is still a grand hole by any standard.
Wonderful golf continues on the 5th with a very demanding drive requiring pin point accuracy to earn a view of the flag through the gap. The dune on the left is the famous Maiden. In Darwin's day the hole was changed forever from a par 3 hitting directly over the pinnacle to what eventually became an abondonment of the sand scarred face.
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The second one-shotter, #6, is a tricky one as the green slides front to back with a slight ridge protecting the rear section.
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Sandwich's first three-shotter requires a thrilling drive over a dune to flat fairway protected with a well placed bunker down the right. Unfortunately, the approach doesn't do the tee shot justice.
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The 8th turns back on #7 and works gently around a dune to the right with hidden bunkers at it's base. The green is a wasp waist affair and similar to #6, with a ridge protecting the rear section. The side ends with a slippery two-shotter of modest length. Two huge bunkers block the fairway, but they serve more as a way to create depth perception dfficulties. I am told by reliable sources that Sandwich has flat greens. I found very little evidence of this. Below is a closer look at #9.
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The terrain coming home is not as compelling as going out, yet there are several holes worth mentioning. The 10th rather reminds some of Dornoch's 16th with its drive and approach up to heaven. The hole strikes me as one of the more primitive at Sandwich and for this reason its a keeper.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROYAL%20ST%20GEORGES%20GC/105.jpg?t=1278502475) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROYAL%20ST%20GEORGES%20GC/105.jpg?t=1278502475)
The par 3 11th is not without some merit due to its two-tier green, but the 12th gets the blood flowing a bit more freely. Choosing the line for the tee shot is critical as bunkers dug into a ridge and beyond guard the direct line to the green. For most a lay-up left is prudent, but the approach can still be made difficult if the hole is cut on the front of the green. Perhaps the drive for the 13th is too similar to the 7th, but as on the previous hole, choosing a line for this blind shot is paramount. It is hoped the members of Sandwich can convince the powers that be at Princes to provide an aiming point on their new hotel - a clock would be original. Somehow, I don't think this is in the cards. For now, the line is the right edge of the hotel shell. Gaging the distance for the second is made harder by the boundary line not too far from the rear of the green.
The namesake of the fourteenth awaits the golfer off the tee. After a brief pause to debate if The Suez Canal is reachable, one must hit and hope if he wants to reach this green in two. The bold line is down the right with the dreaded stakes standing erect and brightly white, the colour of danger in golf circles. The safer line left leaves yet another perilous decision to be made for the next shot...Of course one can always play a 9 iron or so short of the bunkers and accept a five as a matter of course.
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The 15th is slightly out of character with the other holes as the fairway bunkers in the driving zone pinch and those further up the fairway are akin to the Thames Barrier. One must pay the toll previously to have a chance at passing these gates.
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The best par 3 was saved for last. The green heaves from back left to front right - feeding to a blind bunker. If one does his homework and tries to give this bunker too wide a birth, another blind bunker awaits on the left. Seventeen is a fine hole which sails through undulating waves of dunes to a green with a less pronounced false front than it appears. The home hole is a bit of a disappointment as much for the flatter terrain as for where it finishes in a position isolated from the house.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROYAL%20ST%20GEORGES%20GC/117.jpg?t=1278504954) (http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROYAL%20ST%20GEORGES%20GC/117.jpg?t=1278504954)
It is easy to tell I am most impressed with Sandwich. This shouldn't be a shock as there is very little not to like. The course is big and brawny, yet playable for all and sundry; a very difficult dichotomy for a championship course to achieve. To top off a fine day the club is one with great charm and ambience. 2*.
Ciao
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Sean,
I'm glad to see you like RSG so much as I think it might be the best course/experience combo in golf.
Please explain your rating criteria... I've missed the details of your "system."
Mike
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I am told by reliable sources that Sandwich has flat greens.
That's a strange one.
2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 12, 13, 17 and 18 all stick in my mind as having plenty going on both within the green and around it.
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Sean,
I'm glad to see you like RSG so much as I think it might be the best course/experience combo in golf.
Please explain your rating criteria... I've missed the details of your "system."
Mike
Whitty
3* Don’t Miss For Any Reason (I have yet to see one of these)
2* Plan A Trip Around This Course (quite a rare bird)
1* Worth An Overnight Detour
R If In The General Vicinity Without A Game Look Up First For A Go/A Good Fall Back On Course If In The Area And Can’t Get On Others
Criteria include: course & beauty/location (~70%), price (~20%) club & history (~10%).
Thanks for making me look at this. Its the first time I really went into detail about it and it looks about right for whats important to me.
Scott
My flat greens comments is a piss take of our very good mate Tony M. It had to be mentioned as Tony stated Sandwich's greens were flatter than Deal's. I think I responded that the degree if difference is minimal enough to not worry much about - tee hee.
Ciao
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Sean,
I'm glad to see you like RSG so much as I think it might be the best course/experience combo in golf.
Please explain your rating criteria... I've missed the details of your "system."
Mike
Whitty
3* Don’t Miss For Any Reason
2* Plan A Trip Around This Course
1* Worth An Overnight Detour
R If In The General Vicinity Without A Game Look Up First For A Go/A Good Fall Back On Course If In The Area And Can’t Get On Others
Criteria includes: course & beauty/location (~70%), price (~20%) club & history (~10%).
Thanks for making me look at this. Its the first time I really went into detail about it and it looks about right for whats important to me.
Ciao
Is this the Rihc Michelin Scale?
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I wouldn't say the greens are flat at Sandwich but the asst. pro I played with warned me on the first green that everyone over-reads breaks there. Generally by a good margin. After I played a non-existent break on a 6-foot putt at the first and played five inches of break on a putt that moved maybe an inch at the second you would think I might heed that warning.
But then I had a downhill birdie putt of about 4-1/2 feet on the third and I can not for the life of me explain how it failed to have at least four inches of break, given how lightly it had to be tapped. But I tried to take his advice and played it just on the right lip...which is exactly where it rolled, lipping out after not breaking one iota. He said "Did I forget to mention that the putts here are straighter than they look?".
So the rest of the day I pretty much aimed anything inside 10 feet directly at the hole and I finally made some putts. With one glaring exception...
The "primitive" tenth is one of my favorites at Royal St. George's. Nothing much in the tee shot but the green is not receptive. The day I played the hole was cut just barely above the rolled-off front right corner, perilously situated. I missed the green and chipped up to pin high and five feet left. My playing partner put it in the tiny little front-right pot bunker and hit a brilliant shot inches inside my own ball. Once again I aimed just off the left edge of the cup and was rewarded by seeing my putt glide by that edge totally unperturbed by any break whatsoever. Probably because it was downwind (about 18mph) on one of the most exposed spots on the course. The pro made his par putt and admitted it was his first time every getting up and down from that pot bunker to that hole location. I'd have felt more congratulatory if my putt had managed to go in!
The tenth is a great hole because of the green. The fourth is probably the best hole on the course although I'm also partial to the eighth and I just love the fifteenth (even though I took eight there). The fourteenth is its own beast, the only really penal feeling hole on the course.
Sean's "bold line" down the right of Suez is made even riskier by the little pimply humps positioned just about where a short hitter like me will land a downwind tee shot (or where a longer hitter would land into the wind). I'm convinced that my tee ball, which was hugging the right edge of the fairway and trying to fade back toward the center, must have hit one of those and caromed out of the bounds. We never found it even though watching from the tee it looked to be in great shape. Depending on the wind, the contouring of the right side of that green complex can produce a similar horrific bounce OB on a long approach shot. I would find that a perfectly wonderful hole if the OB fence were moved to the right about 10-12 paces further. As is, for a player of my caliber I'd have to play every shot cautiously to the left on my next time around. Not that you can bail out too far left. Narrow hole given the firmness of the ground and exposure to the wind.
I also really love nine and seventeen as both are just a tiny bit quirky/busy but play short and fun. Heck, I love the whole course, I forgot to even mention the fifth hole!
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Sean,
I'm glad to see you like RSG so much as I think it might be the best course/experience combo in golf.
Please explain your rating criteria... I've missed the details of your "system."
Mike
Whitty
3* Don’t Miss For Any Reason
2* Plan A Trip Around This Course
1* Worth An Overnight Detour
R If In The General Vicinity Without A Game Look Up First For A Go/A Good Fall Back On Course If In The Area And Can’t Get On Others
Criteria includes: course & beauty/location (~70%), price (~20%) club & history (~10%).
Thanks for making me look at this. Its the first time I really went into detail about it and it looks about right for whats important to me.
Ciao
Is this the Rihc Michelin Scale?
Ace
Rihc and I use the same Michelin (Rihcellin) stars, but I think Rihc just looks at the course (like I think most folks do) to determine his rating whereas I look at some other stuff - probably mainly money, but I could be wrong.
Ciao
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I am told by reliable sources that Sandwich has flat greens.
That's a strange one.
2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 12, 13, 17 and 18 all stick in my mind as having plenty going on both within the green and around it.
Yeah, who came up with flat greens at Sandwich? I think there are even more than Scott listed here. The greens at Sandwich were a highlight for me.
The 3rd and 11th holes really bring Sandwich down in my book. They are not bad golf holes by any means. However, the holes appear to be designed with cookie cutters (Sandwich cutters?). The long par three to a two-tiered green is very common, and these holes at Sandwich could been found at countless inland courses. These holes are not in any way fun or whimsical. They are simply two tough par threes built with one purpose: attracting the Open Championship. Another reason Deal is preferred in my book: Deal might have some average holes (although the 9th is the only one that sticks out as a weak hole for me), but it does not have any holes like these.
I'll take plenty of holes like the 5th at Sandwich, a hole that is not really strategic, but a hole that is thrilling and tons of fun. Maybe the 5th is one of those holes that gave the illusion of a flat green, but one that is really full of interest upon reaching the green.
Sean, I think you underrate the merits of the 7th and the 18th. The 7th plays beautifully upon a gentle valley after climbing over the dunes off the tee, and the second and third shots are full of interest. The golfer must endeavor to get his ball as far left as possible to set up an acceptable angle for approach. The green slopes slowly but surely from right to left, making any shot from the right less than desirable. The 18th has a similar sort of strategy off the tee, except flirting with the left side is more fearsome due to the mid-fairway mound that can kick shots into the left fairway bunker with easy. Are these the best holes at Sandwich? Probably not, but they were both sleepers in my book.
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Brent Hutto,
I'm glad you say that you love the 15th at Sandwich. That hole is one of my absolute favorites on the golf course, along with the 4th and the 9th. I think it is very playable for all, and it creates tons of interest for a hole that is almost dead flat. The green complex is the most unique and possibly the most interesting on the golf course. Bernard Darwin picked it as one of his favorites in the UK, and I wish more people on this site saw it the same way.
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Sean,
I'm glad to see you like RSG so much as I think it might be the best course/experience combo in golf.
Please explain your rating criteria... I've missed the details of your "system."
Mike
Whitty
3* Don’t Miss For Any Reason
2* Plan A Trip Around This Course
1* Worth An Overnight Detour
R If In The General Vicinity Without A Game Look Up First For A Go/A Good Fall Back On Course If In The Area And Can’t Get On Others
Criteria includes: course & beauty/location (~70%), price (~20%) club & history (~10%).
Thanks for making me look at this. Its the first time I really went into detail about it and it looks about right for whats important to me.
Ciao
Is this the Rihc Michelin Scale?
Ace
Rihc and I use the same Michelin (Rihcellin) stars, but I think Rihc just looks at the course (like I think most folks do) to determine his rating whereas I look at some other stuff - probably mainly money, but I could be wrong.
Ciao
Got it and agree, the total experience should be factored in.
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I'm glad you say that you love the 15th at Sandwich. That hole is one of my absolute favorites on the golf course, along with the 4th and the 9th. I think it is very playable for all, and it creates tons of interest for a hole that is almost dead flat.
You're right. It's not often that one of the most interesting holes on a course is created from just about the least interesting piece of land on the property. That could very easily be a "get you from here to there" long connector hole. On a lot of American courses it would just be a boring, flat hole toughened up by being narrowed in with rough and "protected" by a handful of scary-looking bunkers well off to the side.
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You guys should find a two-ball club halfway between Columbia SC and Rochester NY, book a single tee time and hold the inaugural meeting of the "15th at Sandwich Appreciation Society" ;D
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I am told by reliable sources that Sandwich has flat greens.
That's a strange one.
2, 3, 4, 9, 10, 12, 13, 17 and 18 all stick in my mind as having plenty going on both within the green and around it.
Yeah, who came up with flat greens at Sandwich? I think there are even more than Scott listed here. The greens at Sandwich were a highlight for me.
The 3rd and 11th holes really bring Sandwich down in my book. They are not bad golf holes by any means. However, the holes appear to be designed with cookie cutters (Sandwich cutters?). The long par three to a two-tiered green is very common, and these holes at Sandwich could been found at countless inland courses. These holes are not in any way fun or whimsical. They are simply two tough par threes built with one purpose: attracting the Open Championship. Another reason Deal is preferred in my book: Deal might have some average holes (although the 9th is the only one that sticks out as a weak hole for me), but it does not have any holes like these.
I'll take plenty of holes like the 5th at Sandwich, a hole that is not really strategic, but a hole that is thrilling and tons of fun. Maybe the 5th is one of those holes that gave the illusion of a flat green, but one that is really full of interest upon reaching the green.
Sean, I think you underrate the merits of the 7th and the 18th. The 7th plays beautifully upon a gentle valley after climbing over the dunes off the tee, and the second and third shots are full of interest. The golfer must endeavor to get his ball as far left as possible to set up an acceptable angle for approach. The green slopes slowly but surely from right to left, making any shot from the right less than desirable. The 18th has a similar sort of strategy off the tee, except flirting with the left side is more fearsome due to the mid-fairway mound that can kick shots into the left fairway bunker with easy. Are these the best holes at Sandwich? Probably not, but they were both sleepers in my book.
JNC
The 7th is alright - no harm done, but it doesn't work well as a par 5 from the daily tees. I think the right-front greenside bunkers should be built up and force the aggressive line right. Why? I watched a guy (for what seemed the fifth time) hop the furthest left of these bunkers and make eagle. If there are gonna be bunkers as part of the strategy then they have to do their job.
#18 isn't a bad hole. In fact as a hole its just as good as many on Sandwich. I don't like where it finishes.
I agree about 3 and 11. These holes should be better, but they are no worse than Deal's long par 3 on the back nine - tee hee.
Ciao
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I think 14 at Deal is a great hole.
The good miss is left, but that haven of short grass is blocked from view on the tee by the dune about halfway to the green. You also can't see the area 30m by 30m short of the green where you can safely leave your tee shot short.
All that's visible is the green and the three bunkers that gather anything 1m-20m right of the green and leave a tough sand shot to a green sloping ever so gentle away from you.
There are plenty of ways to tackle it, good and bad misses to reward awareness and smart play and the green suits a hole of that length, with some steady break to separate the men from the boys, but nothing Mickey Mouse.
That said, I am also a fan of the 3rd at Sandwich and started to see something to like in the 11th on my second play.
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You guys should find a two-ball club halfway between Columbia SC and Rochester NY, book a single tee time and hold the inaugural meeting of the "15th at Sandwich Appreciation Society" ;D
I would do it, but there are no two-ball clubs in that geographic area.
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I think 14 at Deal is a great hole.
The good miss is left, but that haven of short grass is blocked from view on the tee by the dune about halfway to the green. You also can't see the area 30m by 30m short of the green where you can safely leave your tee shot short.
All that's visible is the green and the three bunkers that gather anything 1m-20m right of the green and leave a tough sand shot to a green sloping ever so gentle away from you.
There are plenty of ways to tackle it, good and bad misses to reward awareness and smart play and the green suits a hole of that length, with some steady break to separate the men from the boys, but nothing Mickey Mouse.
That said, I am also a fan of the 3rd at Sandwich and started to see something to like in the 11th on my second play.
I agree with everything here except that last sentence. ;D 14 at Deal really grew on me during my stay, and there is differently much more to be learned from that hole than the two clunkers at Sandwich.
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You guys should find a two-ball club halfway between Columbia SC and Rochester NY, book a single tee time and hold the inaugural meeting of the "15th at Sandwich Appreciation Society" ;D
I would do it, but there are no two-ball clubs in that geographic area.
Halfway be damned. How hot is it today in Rochester? I'm missing those 11C windy days in Kent something awful.
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You guys should find a two-ball club halfway between Columbia SC and Rochester NY, book a single tee time and hold the inaugural meeting of the "15th at Sandwich Appreciation Society" ;D
I would do it, but there are no two-ball clubs in that geographic area.
Halfway be damned. How hot is it today in Rochester? I'm missing those 11C windy days in Kent something awful.
High 95F here in Upstate New York. A cool breeze off the English Channel at Deal would hit the spot today.
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I personally liked both #4 and 8 at Deal; I like the way they both sit a bit off center line. #4 is 8 to 2 and #8 more 7 to 1 on the clock face. A cut seems to be the ideal shot. Nick Leefe would know about #4 after his Buda ace!
#14 I thought was just a solid longer par 3 where you could run one on. The deep bunkers really make #8 and 14.
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I personally liked both #4 and 8 at Deal; I like the way they both sit a bit off center line. #4 is 8 to 2 and #8 more 7 to 1 on the clock face. A cut seems to be the ideal shot. Nick Leefe would know about #4 after his Buda ace!
#14 I thought was just a solid longer par 3 where you could run one on. The deep bunkers really make #8 and 14.
Oh the bunkers make #8 all right. I just can't say what they make it, in polite company.
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I personally liked both #4 and 8 at Deal; I like the way they both sit a bit off center line. #4 is 8 to 2 and #8 more 7 to 1 on the clock face. A cut seems to be the ideal shot. Nick Leefe would know about #4 after his Buda ace!
#14 I thought was just a solid longer par 3 where you could run one on. The deep bunkers really make #8 and 14.
Oh the bunkers make #8 all right. I just can't say what they make it, in polite company.
For you the correct shot would be a gentle draw! ;)
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On my two tries this time around I managed a pull-draw into a back right bunker and pull-chunked shot into the front right one.
But both times I was visualizing the prettiest little baby draw with a 7-iron you'd ever want to see...a shot I did manage to hit as my second on the tenth hole. Unfortunately, into the breeze I needed more like a pretty little baby draw with a 4-iron there.
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I would find that a perfectly wonderful hole if the OB fence were moved to the right about 10-12 paces further
I absolutely don't agree with that; I've been stocking up on ProV1s from that OOB area for the last 5 years :)
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Sean - pleased you had a good weekend, cracking weather.
Princes - I played one of my best ever competitive rounds at Princes but we are in agreement the weakness is the similarity of so many of the drives between the low dunes.
Deal - Noel is right about the 3rd, the tee is going back left to make the hole 515/570yds, the new right bunker will be a tough target to get past to set up a second shot from the nice flat area. The tees are being moved for two reasons; Safety - from the back right tees it's just too dangerous for dog walkers below the seawall. Speed - the hole causes delays as it's 460 from the member tees and too many people can hit the green (or think they can!) in two causing delays on the tee.
There has been some concern from fellow GCAers/members concerning fairway narrowing ruining lines. The chair of greens assures me the fairways haven't changed at all the semi rough has been reduced to one 5yd cut then the thick stuff which apart from a few patches is pretty tame - zero rain for a month - this is part of 2011 qualifying work as another dry year would give no fairway/rough definition. So the only difference from 2009 is the width of the semi.
RStG - 4th spoilt by the par 5 set up for the last Open lets pray they make it back into a good par 4.
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Chappers-
Sean still can't figure out if you had one round left to play in life how Deal is superior to Sandwich... ;)
I have not been back to Princes since 2000, maybe worth a look.. So many people don't try out North Foreland or even Walmer.. There are some good holes to see, not cracking golf but worth a look-see..
For my money the 5 greatest shots at Deal are:
1) The drive on #6 when you go for it
2) The 2nd shot (especially downwind) on #16
3) The approach to #12 using the green contours to funnel to hole
4) Approach to #3 (again 2nd shot)
5) Drive on #10 if you really understand how to play the hole correctly for the right angle
Deal has no real indifferent shots, or if there is a ho-hum shot (say the drive on #5), the next shot is not indiferent at all... I also think the subtleties of figuring out the right angles on holes 9 and 11 for the drive take time.. I have 100 rounds at Deal in my history and I still learn things everytime I'm there..
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For mine, 9 is the hole at Deal that costs it when you compare it to the greats.
There is a great risk/reward drive waiting to be made worthwhile with that brilliant fairway bunker, but as it stands your reward for flying it is an approach to a hidden green surface over two greenfront bunkers, whereas if you flay your drive 30 yards right of the bunker you have the A1 line in.
I also think the footprint and greensite of 13 could be turned into a better hole. Reducing the three cross bunkers into a sole centreline bunker could make for a better drive, especially as the land wants to kick the drive forward and give you that wedge into the green. By doing that your A1 drive is over the RHS fairway traps and then past the centreline bunker where the cross bunker would be, hugging the right.
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Noel - Sean is warming to Deal - just noticed he has replaced Woodhall Spa (one of my favourites) for Deal in his top 25 - I do think it's a course that needs a few rounds and I'll get him back for another view sometime. I disagree with the driving though, Sean must having been playing off the girly tees as the big strength of Sandwich is off the tee. Holes such as 4,7,8,12,15 and 18 are very different from the medal and championship tees.
Brent - 15 at Sandwich is a good hole unless you are coming in with lots of club in which case the bunkering makes it really tough to hit the green.
8 at Deal off the main tees (closest to 7th green) a cut is always the shot to hold the ball into the breeze and avoid running into the left hand bunkers.
Scott - I agree with you on the 9th Martin Ebert wants to put some low rumpled humps and hollows down the semi as seen at Birkdale.
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For mine, 9 is the hole at Deal that costs it when you compare it to the greats.
There is a great risk/reward drive waiting to be made worthwhile with that brilliant fairway bunker, but as it stands your reward for flying it is an approach to a hidden green surface over two greenfront bunkers, whereas if you flay your drive 30 yards right of the bunker you have the A1 line in.
I also think the footprint and greensite of 13 could be turned into a better hole. Reducing the three cross bunkers into a sole centreline bunker could make for a better drive, especially as the land wants to kick the drive forward and give you that wedge into the green. By doing that your A1 drive is over the RHS fairway traps and then past the centreline bunker where the cross bunker would be, hugging the right.
Scott,
Although the 9th at Deal is strange from tee to green, it still has a wonderful low-lying green complex that saves it from being a terrible hole.
How often are those centerline bunkers at 13 even in play? My best drives don't get out there downwind. I feel like that is a fine hole as is, with a truly great back-to-front green that is diabolical if you are above the hole. How many greens do you see like that on the Kent Coast?
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Noel, Scott, Mark, et al,
I think we need to start a Deal Appreciation Society. I'm convinced Sean will be a member after a few more plays. Seriously though, Deal is sort of like the Kingsley Club of the UK on this website, and very deservedly so IMO.
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Noel, Scott, Mark, et al,
I think we need to start a Deal Appreciation Society. I'm convinced Sean will be a member after a few more plays. Seriously though, Deal is sort of like the Kingsley Club of the UK on this website, and very deservedly so IMO.
Count me as part of the appreciation society for both Deal & Kingsley.
On a side note, reading Sean's excellent commentary on courses I have played makes me appreciate his other tours even more.
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Sean - pleased you had a good weekend, cracking weather.
Princes - I played one of my best ever competitive rounds at Princes but we are in agreement the weakness is the similarity of so many of the drives between the low dunes.
Deal - Noel is right about the 3rd, the tee is going back left to make the hole 515/570yds, the new right bunker will be a tough target to get past to set up a second shot from the nice flat area. The tees are being moved for two reasons; Safety - from the back right tees it's just too dangerous for dog walkers below the seawall. Speed - the hole causes delays as it's 460 from the member tees and too many people can hit the green (or think they can!) in two causing delays on the tee.
There has been some concern from fellow GCAers/members concerning fairway narrowing ruining lines. The chair of greens assures me the fairways haven't changed at all the semi rough has been reduced to one 5yd cut then the thick stuff which apart from a few patches is pretty tame - zero rain for a month - this is part of 2011 qualifying work as another dry year would give no fairway/rough definition. So the only difference from 2009 is the width of the semi.
RStG - 4th spoilt by the par 5 set up for the last Open lets pray they make it back into a good par 4.
Chappers
The right bunker on #3 shouldn't be trifled with now as there is precious little room there. With the hole being very reachable in two and in a moderate downwind breeze reachable with something like 7 wood short of the bunker and hybrid to the green and with the second blind either way - why bother taking that bunker on? I went left off the tee with a hybrid and hit a choked 5 iron to hollow right of the green. Mind, I knew it was there as a collectiion point from previous plays and it was a piece of piss birdie. Personally, I think that forward bunker slops up the look of the hole. I fear Deal is on the we are a championship course kick and therefore need to be a long course - a pity that if its true.
To my way of thinking it is the approach which needs sand - likely 25 yards short of the green. This is a strategy used very well at Princes that could work well at Deal too. In general, I thought the bunker placement at Princes was superior to Deal's especially in keen conditions.
I don't know if the fairways have been narrowed, but there is no question in my mind that rough is a problem at Deal. It isn't a huge deal, but it needs attention.
Finally - Deal makes my 25 best courses, but not my 25 favourite courses. BUt like Yeamans Hall it is the sort of course I think over time one couild learn to love.
Tuco
Deal as the last game? Not a chance. North Berwick would get that honour 7 days a week over Deal.
Scott
I like the 9th as is - it may be my favourite hole on the course. There is nothing wrong with the odd red herring bunker.
Didn't we have some sort of bet concerning Deal? I can't recall what it was.
JNC
There is no chance of me joining Deal. I am cutting back on golf, not quitting. Where Deal is located essentially means I would rarely get down there because I need to spend the night.
Ciao
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No, we had a bet about Silloth. If you like it more than St Enodoc you shout me a £50 game of golf, if you like St E better, I shout you. Based on your own measure of what is important. Get ye north before October!
9th at Deal might be your favourite? Can you flesh that out? How? Why?
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No, we had a bet about Silloth. If you like it more than St Enodoc you shout me a £50 game of golf, if you like St E better, I shout you. Based on your own measure of what is important. Get ye north before October!
9th at Deal might be your favourite? Can you flesh that out? How? Why?
Scott
Check that - the 10th is what I had in mind.
You are right, the 9th is a bit of an odd duck. I always felt like this was a good opportunity for a double dogleg effect if the green were 10 or so yards right and fairly narrow pointing toward the corner fairway bunker. In any case, the hole is too similar to #11 and it seems there is more space on #9 to create something different.
Thats right about the bet. I won't make it to Silloth before next June/July. So the bet will have to be extended. Besides, £50 may go further in Oz.
What do you think about the 8th? It seems like it is very nearly a superb hole, but for some reason I can't quite figure out why it isn't. In fact, holes 7-11 just don't seem to hang together very well. I know you have advocated changes previously, but I can't recall what they were. I know some of this is down to the back and forth nature of these holes, but without the ehaving land it seems the designers ran out of ideas - with #10 being the obvious exception, perhaps the 7th as well.
BTW Isn't it time one of you Dealers writes a a fresh piece on the course? I couldn't find any profile in the back pages except Tuco's, which while good, could do with a sprucing up.
Ciao
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I've considered doing something. But I keep noticing new and different things. I'm thinking of waiting until the end of my stay and writing something in the vein of "two years of getting to know you".
8-11 is definitely the lesser stretch, but for the land those holes are on Braid did some pretty good stuff.
10 I love and 11 is a more functional and strategically sound version of what 9 tries to be.
8 & 9 need work, IMO.
I think 8 could do with losing the front right bunker to allow the ball to be bounced on when it's downwind and/or the pin is at the front.
I'd like to see the greenside bunkers realigned on the 9th to make it so challenging that fairway bunker becomes integral to having the A1 angle to the green.
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Sean,
I'm not sure where you are coming from about rough and length, sadly modern equipment requires some length to make a course up to "championship" standard. Next week we have the Tillman Trophy average handicap +2 and in the next couple of years we host the Carris Trophy, Open Qualifying and The Amateur so we are an event course whether people like it or not. 6800 off the stones and firm conditions and you are left with a pitch and putt. The fairway corridors average 45 yards so the premium on driving isn't extreme.
Deals weakness IMO is the fairway bunkering, from the back tees the bunkering on #2 finishes at 260, #7 270, #9 240 or new back tee 280, #10 260, #11 260, #13 230 and #15 260 yards. These numbers catch the better members but for young bucks are a line off the tee not a danger.
In the past year I've played a number of Open and US Open venues and the bunkering is all 280-320 from the tees leaving Deal rather defenceless from the driver for the better player, fortunately our superb green complexes even the score a touch.
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Sean,
I'm not sure where you are coming from about rough and length, sadly modern equipment requires some length to make a course up to "championship" standard. Next week we have the Tillman Trophy average handicap +2 and in the next couple of years we host the Carris Trophy, Open Qualifying and The Amateur so we are an event course whether people like it or not. 6800 off the stones and firm conditions and you are left with a pitch and putt. The fairway corridors average 45 yards so the premium on driving isn't extreme.
Deals weakness IMO is the fairway bunkering, from the back tees the bunkering on #2 finishes at 260, #7 270, #9 240 or new back tee 280, #10 260, #11 260, #13 230 and #15 260 yards. These numbers catch the better members but for young bucks are a line off the tee not a danger.
In the past year I've played a number of Open and US Open venues and the bunkering is all 280-320 from the tees leaving Deal rather defenceless from the driver for the better player, fortunately our superb green complexes even the score a touch.
Chappers
You forget about the wind. Burnham hosted the Tillman last year and only two guys went under par over four days and that was on a 6800 yard course. Burnham and Deal are pretty darn close in terms of diffiiculty. Still, the club added another 150 yards as a knee jerk reaction to -6 winning and to upgrade for the Brabazon next year. Its silly when one considers some of the best amateurs around teed it up and the average of the top 10 was over 2 over par. Don't tell me you too ave fallen for the length argument?
I agree, Deal would be better if rebunkered, but not to suit excellent amateurs, but good club players.
Ciao
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Deal has been/needs to be re bunkered to suit all players. A number of short bunkers have been removed as the course is pretty hard for weaker players and a few short bunkers were an unnecessary punishment and expensive to maintain.
Deal holds up pretty well when we have control of the pin positioning. Given a forecast 20mph prevailing wind the new back tee on the 18th is unplayable and not used, but any links courses requires a little wind to protect it.
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I have never been to Deal...
All the love (and those photos) means I'll be making it a priority...
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Deal has been/needs to be re bunkered to suit all players. A number of short bunkers have been removed as the course is pretty hard for weaker players and a few short bunkers were an unnecessary punishment and expensive to maintain.
Deal holds up pretty well when we have control of the pin positioning. Given a forecast 20mph prevailing wind the new back tee on the 18th is unplayable and not used, but any links courses requires a little wind to protect it.
If Deal was to hold an Open again, many of what Mark says could be rectified.
1) #1 Tee could go back easily 40-60 yards
2) #2 Tee could go back to near the boundary fence bringing the bunkers into play.
3) To me #9 defends itself at the green, it is very hard to read, I find it confounding or maybe it is just me
4) Unless the SW is really blowing, hell the second set of cross bunkers on #13 can come into play.. Certainly I've hit into them on a Northerly... I'm not sure if many of the foreign members here have visited as I do in the winter and played that wind.. It was also blowing this past May when I was there..
5) #12 tee could go back over the road as originally intended and play as a cracking long par 4 for low markers.. The club owns the land as well.
6) I see no reason why #15 tee could not be placed 10-15 yards behind the current one. Also the blind approach and wonky lies on #15 fairway really are the hazard to me and holding that green can be difficult when slippery
David Dobby has always told me that Deal requires fine driving but also it defends itself with unlevel lies and the greens.. A few tee alterations are all that is needed.. Deal is never going to win a beauty contest but there is a reason after all of my travels I joined there..
Most people live on a placid island of ignorance when it comes to evaluation of golf courses, if it looks pretty or plays near a beautiful place it gets all the kudos in the world (a famous dead architect helps, I note Deal has potentially Dunn, Hunter, Alison, CK Hutchinson, Morrison, Braid, Campbell and Ebert as lineage). Our memories also make merciful deletions of the warts of any course.. That said, Deal is not pretty, Donald Steel said it reminded him of the Big Country (the novel, not the scottish rock band which was a one hit wonder) in that it required long hitting and was a cruel taskmaster.. Time and equipment changes have softened that view..
But I think Sir Peter Allen and Sir Guy Campbell are impeccable critics when it comes to golf courses and both said Deal was among the best in the world-- Sir Peter Allen singleing it out for a final round.. The only courses in the world (and my portfolio includes 80 of the top 100 which are as for fun to play for me as Deal are Yale (where I am also a member), Royal Melbourne and NGLA.. I'm talking fun, not championship experience (although Royal Mel is certainly full of that).
Sean-- North Berwick?-- Surely if one is to play the final round to a journey with an end, Berwick is not my place. Quirky yes, but my enthusiam flags for the course around the turn and I do think the Redan is gulp overrated although I love #16..
The Downs (the water area by Deal full of shipwrecks) on an October cobalt blue sky with the sun setting lending pregnant shadows on the course and the larks singing (there is NO place where the larks sing louder) and sit on the sea wall by the 6th green/7th tee.. The white cliffs of Ramsgate in the distance and the outline of the French coast.. Magic..
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And there's me thinking I promote Deal!!
For a big event, you would start at the second, there is already a plan to take the tee back to the fence making the hole around 430, but usually down wind, the green requires a feed rather than a high approach.
The plan to put the tee back on the 5th to 604yds means only the tighest of tee shots down the right along the shelf would bring the green in reach. Anything down the left would hit into a big upslope and pull up leaving 280yds, uphill and blind.
As I said yesterday I agree with the idea of some low humps in the RHS semi on 9 to encourage a drawn tee shot holding the fairway. off the new back tee at Easter only 1 person hit the green in two and few made the fairway such was the wind and no run.
The first played as the last could ideed go back (up to 100yds) at around 450yds - taking it back 60 yds - the drive would be at the narrowest point to OOB to leave 150 yards to the green. Lay up to take OOB out and you've 170 over a stream with a big contoured green so two putts would not be a certainty.
Deal isn't pretty compared with lots of links courses, there are no stunning views or high dunes. The reason it attracts good players and many GCA'ers as a first or second club is honest high quality links golf, traditional values and a good club atmosphere.
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And there's me thinking I promote Deal!!
For a big event, you would start at the second, there is already a plan to take the tee back to the fence making the hole around 430, but usually down wind, the green requires a feed rather than a high approach.
The plan to put the tee back on the 5th to 604yds means only the tighest of tee shots down the right along the shelf would bring the green in reach. Anything down the left would hit into a big upslope and pull up leaving 280yds, uphill and blind.
As I said yesterday I agree with the idea of some low humps in the RHS semi on 9 to encourage a drawn tee shot holding the fairway. off the new back tee at Easter only 1 person hit the green in two and few made the fairway such was the wind and no run.
The first played as the last could ideed go back (up to 100yds) at around 450yds - taking it back 60 yds - the drive would be at the narrowest point to OOB to leave 150 yards to the green. Lay up to take OOB out and you've 170 over a stream with a big contoured green so two putts would not be a certainty.
Deal isn't pretty compared with lots of links courses, there are no stunning views or high dunes. The reason it attracts good players and many GCA'ers as a first or second club is honest high quality links golf, traditional values and a good club atmosphere.
Oh Chappers--
I dispute you on two levels my friend..
1) I don't like Ebert's idea, not from the strategy viewpoint but from an aesthetic. I think the mounds (unless so subtle) will look wholely artificial as such an architectual device needs artistry of the highest caliber
2) Deal does have great views.. #7 seawall tee, #9 tee, # 11 tee and to my eyes the look down the 16th fairway from the 2nd shot!
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I'm with Noel on the mounds and the aesthetics.
If you can't see the beauty in the terrain of 3, 5, 6, 7, 12, 15, 16 and 17 you must have a screw loose.
Re: the sea: you get glimpses from 3 tee, 4 tee, 5 tee, 6 green, 7 seawall tee, sections of 16, 17 fairway and 18 tee.
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Maybe I'll be proved wrong, but I doubt we'll see another Open venue in Kent. RSG fits the bills in terms of the course and the infrastructure. I don't think Deal has the space (despite Mark's assertion that the "sea wall will be the best grandstand" :) ).
Personally I think Deal or Prince's could re-host (with some reworking of course). I know Deal can be stretched and there is even more room at Prince's, but I just can't see the R&A adding another course.
I had a quick 9 at Prince's today, pretty much straight off the plane from Muscat. Some smoke at RSG attracted my attention on the way out. The rough to the right of the 9th tee and down the right of 13 will be a little thinner!! Two fire engines were in attendance but the grass is tinderbox dry after weeks without rain.
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I had a quick 9 at Prince's today, pretty much straight off the plane from Muscat. Some smoke at RSG attracted my attenion on the way out, looks like the rough to the right of 13 will be a little thinner!! Two fire engines were in attendance:
Jeepers! Perhaps I forgot to stomp me cigar.
Scott & Tuco
Now I know you have Deal Disease. To call Deal a place with good views is more than just a reach - and ahem, quite a bit different from saying "the beauty...". That said, the course is far from ugly. Its lovely to see guys acting as if they just had their first kiss and yet not having a clue at the delights beyond the kiss.
I am not sure mounding is the answer for the 9th. Why not just widen the fairway?
Ciao
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Sean,
I never said it had views to rival NSWGC or St Enodoc. It's the flat, stinky, brown English channel. Not sexy. My point is that you get to see it much more than people often think or say.
Internally, I maintain it's a beautiful links course.
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It's the flat, stinky, brown English channel.
Oi, it's our English Channel and we're proud of it. If it wasn't there, we may be a nation of cheese-eating surrender monkeys, to quote a famous Scot's "greenkeeper". :)
Actually the waters of Sandwich Bay can look blue and quite lovely in the sunshine, like today.
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I was just being cheeky. It does offer views of France, which still gives me a thrill. Where I am from seeing another country requires a 3hr plane trip! ;D
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Call me crazy but this view is beautiful to me... And that is me and Jeff Silverman on the 5th tee-- btw, I had just eagled 3 and birdied 4..
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/RCP4.jpg)
And the water off Deal can be very BLUE...
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Hey, the water is always a gorgeous azure and the sun is shining when you've just gone eagle-birdie.
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Jamie we'd be Krauts, the surrender monkeys would have beaten us years ago but come WW1 the French would have been waving their white hankies over the white cliffs and we'd have become German. Therefore there would't have been a WW2 so maybe beating the French did the world a dis-service all those years ago!
Noel - modest as ever!! ;)
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Reminds me of that great fake classified advert: "For sale, WW2-era French Army rifle. Never fired, dropped once." ;D
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Reminds me of that great fake classified advert: "For sale, WW2-era French Army rifle. Never fired, dropped once." ;D
Or this query: "How does the French admiral review the fleet?"
In a glass bottomed boat! ;D
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oh how i love a good converation about Deal. I played what is currently my annual round there on Tuesday of this week whislt back in the UK and what a delight it was. As Sean also mentions we had the wind in the opposite direction to the prevailing wind. I can assure you Sean it is normally the other way but it was a treat to play it with a pleasant breeze as was the case on tuesday. It was really rolling with my father being particularly unlucky with balls rolling into the rough and not finding them.
My observations from Tuesday game were as follows:
1) The greens were great, very true and quick but not unpleasently fast. As always i loved the undulations. On this trip i also notice some more subtle breaks on the greens that i had missed in the past. Almost to the point there there were no straight putts and i like that.
2) Did not notice the new sea wall tees and to me that speaks to how well they have been blended in. Or maybe i was just day dreaming ;D
3) I actually really like the par threes on the course. Particularly 14 with the bunkers on one side and the fall away on the left making accuracy a premium if you are trying to make the green vs land shot and roll up. and with 4 i like the slight change in angle from holes 3 and 5 adding another part to the shot selection process
4) 10 a hole that looks straight forward but i find picking the line off the tee the hardest part. too far left and you are in the real hay and too far right there are bunkers and a fall away into the rough. not visually easy in my opinion.
5) In some places the rough was brutal and could probably do with being cut back for the average golfer but i beliive they have a big comp there in a few weeks (tillman trophy) so they may just have the rough up for that.
Regarding the comments on 9 and how the drive over the bunker gives you the 2nd shot over the bunkers i don't think those bunkers come into play too much as i think there is a decent amount of space behind them before the green to land a second shot in if the pin is on the left side of the green.
glad you all enjoy the course.
mark
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Mark after all this time did I let you go in front of us on the first in the afternoon and not meet for the first time??
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Mark after all this time did I let you go in front of us on the first in the afternoon and not meet for the first time??
no that would not have been me Mark. I was on the tee at 7am. Unfortuantely i had to work in the afternoon so i was not able to stick around and spend the day.
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That's keen! We played on Tuesday at 1050 shame our paths didn't cross, let me know when you are next over.
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Jamie we'd be Krauts, the surrender monkeys would have beaten us years ago but come WW1 the French would have been waving their white hankies over the white cliffs and we'd have become German. Therefore there would't have been a WW2 so maybe beating the French did the world a dis-service all those years ago!
Noel - modest as ever!! ;)
It doesnt matter chappers, I went out in 35 that day and home in 45... 80 with an eagle/birdie combo is not so hot..
Curiously of the 10 Eagles in my life, 5 are at Deal (#3 2x, #16 2x and #10)..
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The fairway corridors average 45 yards so the premium on driving isn't extreme.
Chappers
I just noticed this line and have to wonder if you really believe 45 yards (which is essentially the width of the corridors because a wall of rough meets the fairways on many holes) is wide enough considering wind and keen conditions? I don't think so and this has been an ongoing battle with links in general. Corridors are narrowing because rough isn't properly controlled. IMO, 45 yards is fairly narrow most links should have at least 60 yard corridors. The configuration of light rough/fairway is what should change depending on location and slope of the land. BTW, I feel the same anout parkland courses with mature trees lining fairways or heathland courses with trees and heather lining fairways. Playing St Georgess Hill and comparing it to the other heathland courses convinced me of this. Plus, saying the fairways average 45 yards wide isn't quite the same when bunkers are on the wings and corners of fairways. I fear you have totally fallen for the trap of setting up courses for players who show up once a year rather than for the regular Joe markers who play the course day in and day out. Say it ain't so.
Ciao
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I fear you have totally fallen for the trap of setting up courses for players who show up once a year rather than for the regular Joe markers who play the course day in and day out. Say it ain't so.
Sean the average Joe is about 60 hits it straight down the middle and loves the run to give him some length. He hates seeing his younger mate who flashes it a bit wandering into the rough and having a simple short shot to the green. The chap who turns up once a year wants it wide not narrow!
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IMO, 45 yards is fairly narrow most links should have at least 60 yard corridors.
Sean,
Jump on GoogleMaps and measure the corridors at your beloved St Enodoc and Prince's. Many of the corridors at those two courses max out at 40-45 yards.
I just got back from Deal and after hearing the story of narrowing after my most recent round there, I was keen to have a good look today. It is definitely narrower than it was last summer, but it is still far wider than many other links.
Add to that the generally low, whispy rough to the right of 3-9 and to the left of 15-17.
There are some vicious spots in the rough, so I'd guess a visitor's perception of how bad Deal's rough is will greatly depend on where they hit their bad shots and on which side they hit them.
But as for the corridor widths, I think you are marking Deal very tough there, not to mention this being an example of where your broad principles of what makes for good golf not always matching up with the courses you love.
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IMO, 45 yards is fairly narrow most links should have at least 60 yard corridors.
Sean,
Jump on GoogleMaps and measure the corridors at your beloved St Enodoc and Prince's. Many of the corridors at those two courses max out at 40-45 yards.
I just got back from Deal and after hearing the story of narrowing after my most recent round there, I was keen to have a good look today. It is definitely narrower than it was last summer, but it is still far wider than many other links.
Add to that the generally low, whispy rough to the right of 3-9 and to the left of 15-17.
There are some vicious spots in the rough, so I'd guess a visitor's perception of how bad Deal's rough is will greatly depend on where they hit their bad shots and on which side they hit them.
But as for the corridor widths, I think you are marking Deal very tough there, not to mention this being an example of where your broad principles of what makes for good golf not always matching up with the courses you love.
Scott
Rough is always a thing of the day. Sometimes its up and sometimes it isn't. But it seems as though rough is up far more than it used to be 20 years ago. The difference in the main at Princes is they have many areas of old fashioned proper whispy rough. For sure there are areas which are out of control, but in general I could go into the rough, find my ball quickly and kick on. However, on the second day with cross winds, the corridors couldn't handle it. This is the fault of the course owners, not golfers. Its no secret I play more more winter golf because I hate rough and will always struggle to comprehend why people want to grow it. Its right up there with planting gorse, willow trees and practically any kind of evergreen/fir tree. I have no time for that nonsense on a golf course.
I would also make the point that fairway corridors should be dependent on the type of course. Hilly, tree/heather-lined, dune lined and humpty bumpty courses need wider fairways to cope with summer keenness and wind. It is only my opinon, but I think most links should be widened and Deal would be included in most links. I understand the penchant for "championship" difficulty, I just don't agree wiith it. I can't recall the last time I enjoyed looking for a ball. That said, Deal is clever to keep two ball play because it does help keep things moving even in difficult conditions. Don't tell Chappers, but I played with a guy who's handicap is so high he isn't even close to qualifying for one - tee hee. We were a bit slow, but considering the rough, I thought getting a 50 capper round Deal in 3:30 wasn't bad at all.
Ciao
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I'm with you on rough. Brora is as far from a push-over as you'd want to see and the group of us played a combined 144 holes there in may without looking like losing a ball.
I hate pointless penal rough, but Deal's issues with it, while increasing because of this "championship" ideal, are still quite a long way short of dire (in my opinion). That's as of now. But I agree it is unsettling.
The fun and challenge of our golf course is in the greens and the magnificence (I don't think that is too strong a word for them) of the greens is highlighted by angles. Those angles are being reduced, no doubt.
I realise the R&A and the club are doing what they are doing for a reason, and it is their right to make the course more difficult in the ways they see fit to do so for the Tillman Trophy and the 2013 Amateur.
But the course doesn't need it. They certainly aren't making it a better course or allowing its strengths to come to the fore. Narrowing the playable corridors just makes it more brutal and less fun.
Like I say, the damage so far is quite minimal, but the trend is a worrying one.
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I'm with you on rough. Brora is as far from a push-over as you'd want to see and the group of us played a combined 144 holes there in may without looking like losing a ball.
I hate pointless penal rough, but Deal's issues with it, while increasing because of this "championship" ideal, are still quite a long way short of dire (in my opinion). That's as of now. But I agree it is unsettling.
The fun and challenge of our golf course is in the greens and the magnificence (I don't think that is too strong a word for them) of the greens is highlighted by angles. Those angles are being reduced, no doubt.
I realise the R&A and the club are doing what they are doing for a reason, and it is their right to make the course more difficult in the ways they see fit to do so for the Tillman Trophy and the 2013 Amateur.
But the course doesn't need it. They certainly aren't making it a better course or allowing its strengths to come to the fore. Narrowing the playable corridors just makes it more brutal and less fun.
Like I say, the damage so far is quite minimal, but the trend is a worrying one.
Scott
I think we are in perfect agreement. Deal is no Muirfield (dire) when it comes to rough. My observations were about not liking the trend even though the rough is only really a problem on a handful of holes - in decent weather. Crank the weather up two notches and "Houston, we have a (serious) problem." Its more a philsophical debate rather than a bare knuckles one. I think when Deal is keen the course would be better if less rough was about. I also believe that statement holds true for most links. Its not a miracle that the courses without water don't have rough. This is why I don't totally buy into blaming weather for I would call poor conditions. Clubs cultivate a culture and for many, being tougher is part of that cultivation and the EASIEST way to become tougher is to grow rough. Here is hoping the powers that be at Deal don't roll over like Chapppers seems to have done.
Ciao
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I'm still failing to see where I've "rolled over" the fairways haven't narrowed the semi has. I spray the ball around and it's not worrying me. RStG cut their rough down to an inch or two last autumn and really cleared in out. The only thick areas at Deal are where water runs off or the land is at sea level. This summer is very benign.
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It may be that the semi has narrowed rather than the fairways, but what I am focused on is that the playable corridor is narrower.
In a way, the reduction of semi makes it more extreme, as in fast and firm conditions it's the semi that can slow a slightly wayward ball and keep it out of the rubbish. With less semi between the fast fairways and the lost ball territory, it seems to me that balls that would have been held up by the wider semi last summer will retain enough momentum to reach the proper rough this summer.
That said, holes like 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 17 and 18 are still decently wide and the likes of 9, 13 and 16 only have severe rough on the inside of the hole where you are shortening the hole by hugging that side.
Take away the three one-shotters and to me that leaves 1, 6 and 11 that stand out to me as being a bit silly as they are.
1 is definitely thicker on the right this summer which I have seen taking balls and slowing the field down from the start of the round.
6 is such a great, tough green that the tightening of the landing zone is unnecessary, and,
11 is a monster with the fairway sloping toward the rough on both sides anyway, not to mention that they could just use the sea wall tee to toughen it as it's a brute from up there.
As I've said, it's the trend more than what's on the ground right now that is the major concern.
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It may be that the semi has narrowed rather than the fairways, but what I am focused on is that the playable corridor is narrower.
In a way, the reduction of semi makes it more extreme, as in fast and firm conditions it's the semi that can slow a slightly wayward ball and keep it out of the rubbish. With less semi between the fast fairways and the lost ball territory, it seems to me that balls that would have been held up by the wider semi last summer will retain enough momentum to reach the proper rough this summer.
That said, holes like 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 17 and 18 are still decently wide and the likes of 9, 13 and 16 only have severe rough on the inside of the hole where you are shortening the hole by hugging that side.
Take away the three one-shotters and to me that leaves 1, 6 and 11 that stand out to me as being a bit silly as they are.
1 is definitely thicker on the right this summer which I have seen taking balls and slowing the field down from the start of the round.
6 is such a great, tough green that the tightening of the landing zone is unnecessary, and,
11 is a monster with the fairway sloping toward the rough on both sides anyway, not to mention that they could just use the sea wall tee to toughen it as it's a brute from up there.
As I've said, it's the trend more than what's on the ground right now that is the major concern.
The 6th hole should be mowed tightly everywhere, in order to tempt the golfer into making some really dumb shot selections! Thick rough defeats the entire idea of that hole.
Maybe thick rough in the direct line to challenge the flat bellies, but even that may be a bad idea.
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I'm still failing to see where I've "rolled over" the fairways haven't narrowed the semi has. I spray the ball around and it's not worrying me. RStG cut their rough down to an inch or two last autumn and really cleared in out. The only thick areas at Deal are where water runs off or the land is at sea level. This summer is very benign.
Chappers
By rolled over I mean you excuse what I would call unnecessary rough because some good golfers are going to show at some point. I would suggest that most golfers can't handle the rough and it sure doesn't add to the enjoyment of the game to get a burnt neck. Why in the heck do you think I was not praising Deal before? The course couldn't handle a decent wind which occurs too often.
Ace
I agree with you concerning the 6th. I would love to see the rough cut way back on a direct line to the hole, but only on the far side of the dune so a guy has to judge the carry of the blind shot pretty damn accurately. The view from the tee should still be nasty rough to create doubt and fear.
Ciao
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Gentlemen,
I read this thread with great interest and anticipation, when you where discussing Deal and others recently, but as it was about 7 years ago since I caddied round Deal, I decided to wait till my trip this weekend to add to the discussion. I'm sure I'm not going to add anything new, but her goes:
There are 4 holes at Deal, that are possibly amongst the best links (or any other type of course) that I've ever played. Great par 5s are often considered a rare thing, but Deal has 2 in the 3rd and 16th. The 6th shows that a great short par 4 doesn't need to be protected by tons of bunkers, just push the green up high onto a plateau (in fact Deal's 6th really remind me of Brora's 1st, only better) and Sean's favourite 10th, a great example of a medium length par 4, showing that good strategy can help defend a hole, not just length.
In fact the 16th probably has just about eveything I would ever want in a hole? Cross bunkers to challenge the shorter hitter, a pot up the left to catch a layup or a bombed tee shot wind behind, beautiful rumpled fairway, approach to a raised green which is therefore tricky weather approaching it with a wedge or a 3 wood, a green itself which has as many rumples as parts of the fairway, and a wee bit of none golf character and history in the old pill box bunker on the right.
There are so many other great holes, greens, drives, and so much fun to be had. I didn't think the fairways were narrow at all, and in most places were they are ther rough was manageable. The club itself has a great feeling, and with a first floor lounge, a great view over the course.
I think its fair to say, when the Deal Appreciation Society is set up, I'll be happy to join!
Cheers,
James
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Boony
I guess I am in left field with the rough, but after playing Burnham yesterday I remain more convinced that Deal needs to cut it back. When Burnham looks and plays wider than most links there is something amiss. Not that I am complaining, this is the first summer in yonks that Burnham has been a pleasure to play in a decent wind.
Ciao
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Sean,
I did remember Deal as playing very tight from my previous trip caddying there, but then that was an Open Qualifying? So I was a little suprised that it didn't seem that tight to me yesterday. It is indeed a pleasure to play Burnham at the moment, and I'm sure the fairways are getting wider, but as you say when Burnham feels wide, there must be something amiss! ;)
Cheers,
James
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Lucky you played yesterday as 9-12 were closed mid morning today after a bomb was found on the course. Clearly WW2 and enough to create a new bunker!
Sean - 17 under won the Tillman in the week so the good players clearly found it wide enough.
James - the "short hitter" bunkers on 16 can be a big carry especially off the back tee in a breeze!
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Lucky you played yesterday as 9-12 were closed mid morning today after a bomb was found on the course. Clearly WW2 and enough to create a new bunker!
Sean - 17 under won the Tillman in the week so the good players clearly found it wide enough.
James - the "short hitter" bunkers on 16 can be a big carry especially off the back tee in a breeze!
Chappers
At some point you will eventually understand that I don't care about the best players and how they score. They should not be the measure of how a course is presented unless the course is all about championship golf. Unfortunately, folks get caught up in this stuff which is more the pity.
I did a slight update of the Deal section of the Kaleidoscope. A most enjoyable time was had by all at Scott's doo. The course was in fine nick, especially the greens. As a bonus, the young eyes of Scott, though blurred by chemical intake, mistook my orange tee shirt as my skin and asked (if the logo) if it was permament. Well I say.
Ciao
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Sean - nice update, no one mentioned narrow fairways at the weekend so I'm guessing it was only a factor during the usual "lush" part of the year that all links courses enjoy until the sun dries the grass out.
Routing - using genuine links land our routing is restricted to what we have. Would Deal have been better if we had extended away from the sea using a bulldozer to create fake linksland, which seems to be all the rage in Scotland.
You appear to being slowly seduced by Deal, it maybe a cliche but the Deal experience is more than the sum of the individual parts.
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I remember that, vaguely, Sean...
I have a photo of you and Adam that speaks volumes about the state we were in, but I haven't decided yet whether I'll be so low as to post it on here!
More than a couple of the guys have said the course/club grows on them with every visit.
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There is no question Deal is a very fine course and that has always been my belief. I fear the He Man Deal Hater has long been mis-characterized because he doesn't worship at the altar of all things Deal nor consider Deal one of his favourite courses. That is the want of some folks - they love Deal that much and thats fair enough. Here is hoping Chappers and the numerous Dealies will consider a once yearly weekend gathering at Deal which is open first come first serve to all. If at all possible, I would be there.
Scott - btw - that avatar photo is trade marked, but I will gladly enter negotiations for fair compensation - tee hee.
Ciao
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Scott - btw - that avatar photo is trade marked, but I will gladly enter negotiations for fair compensation - tee hee.
As both one of the subjects of said photograph and an intellectual property lawyer, I am appalled at your lack of understanding of IP. I think you meant copyright, not trade marked?
Anyway, what upsets me is the use of an image of me without obtaining my consent. How do you think it feels being displayed walking next to a man in those socks? I think I should sue.
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How do you think it feels being displayed walking next to a man in those socks?
Probably about the same as I felt walking next to a man in lemon strides and a pastel green shirt!
I have now had copyright claims against my avatar (Arble) and my message under it (Huntley). I really do need a good lawyer... preferably one who doesn't wear lemon trousers!
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More than a couple of the guys have said the course/club grows on them with every visit.
Count me amongst the band who find that Deal grows on me with every play.
Last year at BUDA I thoroughly enjoyed Deal. After all who wouldn't be smitten by the approachs to and the green sites at 3, 6, 15 & 16.
However I was blown away by Royal St Georges, which I thought was easily the best course I've played in England and probably in my top 5. This year, playing purely at Deal, RCP revealed more of its subleties to me. The fall away at the left of the 4th green which is blind from the tee; the greensite at 7; the raised centre part of the green at 9 which deceives you on long putts from both front & back; the brilliance of both the drive and approach at 10 - a hole which on first play is apparently bland; the fairway undulations on 17.
Given the atmosphere and friendliness of the club you have a combination which in my opinion is hard to beat. I just wish I lived nearer :(
I'd heartily second Sean's suggestion of a once yearly gathering at Deal if the members were amenable to such a proposal ;)
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Count me with Andrew as one who appreciated some of the lesser talked about holes far more last weekend than I did at BUDA. 4, 7 (for the visual deception off the tee as well as the greesite), 9 (though I still haven't hit a decent drive there), 13, 14 (with it's "safe" chipping area left of the green), 15, 17 (almost as good a greensite as the raved about ones and a wonderful fairway) and 18 with what must be an artificially raised green but tricky to hit. Count me in for any Deal GCA event in future.
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Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:
#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.
Ciao
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As I am heavily involved in club business and matches I will allow a fellow member to propose a fixture, hopefully to coincide with a visit by some of our regular overseas members.
A small group at weekends is possible especially with morning foursomes and afternoon singles, which reduces pressure on the tee.
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Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:
#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.
Ciao
Deal HATER- explain your last comment on the bunkering please.. I don't think you've played enough rounds there to qualify that statement. I've driven into the cross bunkers on 13 downwind and into the sentry ones into a strong headwind. The 15th and 16th frontal bunkers are usually out of play on the drive except when the southwesterly is strong and they are in play. The cross bunkers on 17 are definitely in play downwind. There is no way you played 18 and hit into the ditch unless a northerly was blowing or someone carries the ball 275+ from the member tees, I'm not short (height yes, length no) and have only hit into the ditch when the course is uber burnt out or downwind where a 3 iron can find the water.
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Noel,
The wind was coming off the ocean on Saturday afternoon - firm but not crazy - and from the members' tee I drove it in the burn on 18, Mark P was about 5 yards short from memory and as we crossed the bridge the guys behind us (Sean's group) both put their drives right near it.
You're right, it's a long drive down there, but it's just in that zone where you won't reach it often, but you will definitely be aware of its presence.
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Noel,
The wind was coming off the ocean on Saturday afternoon - firm but not crazy - and from the members' tee I drove it in the burn on 18, Mark P was about 5 yards short from memory and as we crossed the bridge the guys behind us (Sean's group) both put their drives right near it.
You're right, it's a long drive down there, but it's just in that zone where you won't reach it often, but you will definitely be aware of its presence.
Wind was straight off the left, certainly not helping at all. My shot was solid, not exceptional and I'm not particularly long. That water's clearly in play.
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Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:
#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.
Ciao
Deal HATER- explain your last comment on the bunkering please.. I don't think you've played enough rounds there to qualify that statement. I've driven into the cross bunkers on 13 downwind and into the sentry ones into a strong headwind. The 15th and 16th frontal bunkers are usually out of play on the drive except when the southwesterly is strong and they are in play. The cross bunkers on 17 are definitely in play downwind. There is no way you played 18 and hit into the ditch unless a northerly was blowing or someone carries the ball 275+ from the member tees, I'm not short (height yes, length no) and have only hit into the ditch when the course is uber burnt out or downwind where a 3 iron can find the water.
Tuco
#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?
#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?
#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?
#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.
#16: left hand fairway bunker guards rough.
Ciao
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I think the bunkering on 13 and 15, while undeniably repetitive, is clearly designed to force play away from the boundary of the course.
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Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:
#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.
Ciao
Deal HATER- explain your last comment on the bunkering please.. I don't think you've played enough rounds there to qualify that statement. I've driven into the cross bunkers on 13 downwind and into the sentry ones into a strong headwind. The 15th and 16th frontal bunkers are usually out of play on the drive except when the southwesterly is strong and they are in play. The cross bunkers on 17 are definitely in play downwind. There is no way you played 18 and hit into the ditch unless a northerly was blowing or someone carries the ball 275+ from the member tees, I'm not short (height yes, length no) and have only hit into the ditch when the course is uber burnt out or downwind where a 3 iron can find the water.
Tuco
#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?
#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?
#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?
#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.
#16: left hand fairway bunker guards rough.
Ciao
Sean,
The bunkering at Deal is not the strength of the course. In a few spots, it is brilliant and defines holes brilliantly. I am thinking here of 2, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, and 14. Yet even these holes are about much more than just the bunkering. I agree that some of the bunkering does not make a ton of sense. However, these bunkers are minimalist, well-present, and harmless. In general, the contours of the land are the key at Deal. Let's look at the best holes on the property: 3, 6, 15-17. All of these holes are defined by vexing ground contours and brilliant greens. The bunkers are sometimes in play, but they are little more than a distraction.
I find it hard to criticize the bunkering at Deal because that golf course, unlike too many other courses, is not about "the bunkering." I've become more and more skeptical about the necessity of bunkering after playing courses like Deal and Huntercombe. It's really an overused and unnecessary hazard.
Reading these threads makes me wish more and more that I had been on hand for the sloppy stag weekend.
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Sean,
#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?
In a bunker or long. To be fair, there used to be bunkers long that were removed so you can go long and chip back. But I agree there is, like 8 at St Enodoc or 10 at Dornoch, not really much of a way to get it close when it's downwind. I'd pull one bunker out at the front to allow a cheeky runner, but extend the front right trap to the left so that path through was only 15ft or so wide, as it's only going to be a wedge if it's downwind at 152yds.
#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?
I used to think this and to an extent still do. Flying the bunker gets you no advantage, but hugging it definitely does. The shape of the land off the right of the bunker generally means you get a big kick forward if you hug the bunker and rarely have more than a 9i in, wheras a tee shot placed more than about 10 yards right of the trap will die on the hill and be shoved right, usually leaving a 4i or 5i in. The angle is great from out there, but that's a lot of club with bunkers L and R at the green.
#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?
I wouldn't say approaching from the right is usually best. If the pin is at the front, you want to be approaching from the left so you can run the ball off the RHS slope and stay away from the front left bunker. When the pin is back I think coming from the right is smarter as the LHS of the halfpipe at the green extends all the way back and a shot played from the right can use that steep slope to hold the green and find the back centre of the surface. Wheras if you go at a back pin fron the left it is easy to hang it out on the slope on the RHS of the green and leave a crazy tough 3rd.
#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.
Agreed. Massively. The major weakness of the course. I'd love them to use the tee on the right of 12 green for the 13th and introduce some angled drive bunkers to tempt you to bit off the corner and bring the LHS green bunkers in tighter and shorter to make the approach from a drive tugged safely left a bastard.
ie.
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7703/72033461.jpg)
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My last trip to Deal 3 wks ago was sloppy.. I wound up in the Port Arms at 1am singing in a kareoke contast.. I think Joe Elliot should call me as my rendition of Pour Some Sugar on Me had some local roses in a tizzy.
Deal Hater:
#12 was originally a par 5 with the tee over the road when designed.. I cannot speak to why the bunkers are staggered then but I can dispute the best line is from the right. I like driving it left and then banking it off the left side of the U shaped green as that is the bigger side from which to utilize the slope.
I don't have a problem with the sentry bunkers on #15 and #13 guarding rough-- the basically SAY DONT HIT IT HERE unless you have a draw on the ball..
#8, joe bloggs is playing the 152 y tees.. it is an 8 iron.. he should be accurate.. And if you were perceptive my cycloptic friend, you can always hit it long on that green..
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Scott, you stole my thunder.. What next you going to sing Hysteria?
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Scott's change to 13 would make the hole safer too, as you'd be playing more directly away from the property boundary.
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I'm not Tuco but here are my answers:
#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?
Into a bunker. Just pick which one. Or through the back.
#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?
To deceive the player into trying to take it on, either by carrying that bunker or playing as near to it as possible. Believe me, it works.
#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?
See answer to previous question.
#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.
Not quite. I think the best line on 13 is over the gap between the spectacles. 15 looks the same but the line is over the left edge of the left bunker or further left. The line of the gap ensures a second shot played from rough.
#16: left hand fairway bunker guards rough.
I'm not sure which one you are talking about here. Assuyming you mean the bunker way up the fairway, isn't it an aiming point for the tee shot? And very close to being a good spot to play your third from into the wind?
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Scott's proposed change to 13 makes it a more obvious hole. I think 13 is a really strong hole and part of that is tryin g to work that tee shot out. Isn't part of the trick in design to confuse with visual deceipt. That's what's going on at 13 and I love it. Leave it as it is.
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Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:
#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.
Ciao
Deal HATER- explain your last comment on the bunkering please.. I don't think you've played enough rounds there to qualify that statement. I've driven into the cross bunkers on 13 downwind and into the sentry ones into a strong headwind. The 15th and 16th frontal bunkers are usually out of play on the drive except when the southwesterly is strong and they are in play. The cross bunkers on 17 are definitely in play downwind. There is no way you played 18 and hit into the ditch unless a northerly was blowing or someone carries the ball 275+ from the member tees, I'm not short (height yes, length no) and have only hit into the ditch when the course is uber burnt out or downwind where a 3 iron can find the water.
Tuco
#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?
#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?
#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?
#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.
#16: left hand fairway bunker guards rough.
Ciao
Sean,
The bunkering at Deal is not the strength of the course. In a few spots, it is brilliant and defines holes brilliantly. I am thinking here of 2, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, and 14. Yet even these holes are about much more than just the bunkering. I agree that some of the bunkering does not make a ton of sense. However, these bunkers are minimalist, well-present, and harmless. In general, the contours of the land are the key at Deal. Let's look at the best holes on the property: 3, 6, 15-17. All of these holes are defined by vexing ground contours and brilliant greens. The bunkers are sometimes in play, but they are little more than a distraction.
I find it hard to criticize the bunkering at Deal because that golf course, unlike too many other courses, is not about "the bunkering." I've become more and more skeptical about the necessity of bunkering after playing courses like Deal and Huntercombe. It's really an overused and unnecessary hazard.
Reading these threads makes me wish more and more that I had been on hand for the sloppy stag weekend.
Adam
Protect the boundary? Perhaps pedestrians, but then the club isn't terribly worried about the pedestrians on the sea wall - tee hee. Scott's change takes the tee shot over a pedestrian walk. It may make the hole better, but I would bet the archie would get behind that idea.
JNC
So now we have the Dealers defending the bunker scheme at Deal. Do you all use the same optometrist? Here is a heads up, the bunkering is very ordinary. The best bunkering on the course is #10. After that, there are very few very well placed bunkers. Fairway #11 and greenside #12 are both very good. Most of the rest are either obvious or unnecessary.
Ciao
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So you like the bunkering at 10-12 and 1, 4, 6, 17, 18, 3 green, 15 green and 16 green are bunkerless... That doesn't leave a whole lot of the golf course.
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Sean-
Of course I'm going to defend a course that I think is Top 50 in the world (and I've seen 80+ on Golf Mag's list). I willl still argue that you have not played Deal enough and in enough winds to understand what you see as a weakness.
Take the 7th hole. The bunker on the left is superb placement. If you hit a running shot into that green that iisnt perfect, that ball will veer left directly into the hazard.
#15- Greenside bunker on the left. Most people that I've played with never hit the ball right on their approach on 15, it doesnt help that the SW wind also moves you left, and guess what the terrain puts you right into that pot waiting there almost as an afterthought.
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Yes, the three things which stood out for me this trip were:
#6 - the tee we used creating the very awkward blind drive - I love alternate tees which change the look of a hole.
#9 - as Andrew states, the broad pimple in the middle of the green where the hole was located last weekend.
#18 - the water is drivable for mere mortals.
In general, how much of the bunkering doesn't make sense for daily play.
Ciao
Deal HATER- explain your last comment on the bunkering please.. I don't think you've played enough rounds there to qualify that statement. I've driven into the cross bunkers on 13 downwind and into the sentry ones into a strong headwind. The 15th and 16th frontal bunkers are usually out of play on the drive except when the southwesterly is strong and they are in play. The cross bunkers on 17 are definitely in play downwind. There is no way you played 18 and hit into the ditch unless a northerly was blowing or someone carries the ball 275+ from the member tees, I'm not short (height yes, length no) and have only hit into the ditch when the course is uber burnt out or downwind where a 3 iron can find the water.
Tuco
#8: where does joe bloggs hit his tee shot when the hole plays practically any direction except off the Channel?
#9: why is the fairway bunker protecting the inside of the leg when the best angle of approach is the right side?
#12: Why is the right hand faiirway bunker further away than the left when approaching from the right is usually best?
#13 & 15: repetitive spectacle bunkering, much of which guards rough.
#16: left hand fairway bunker guards rough.
Ciao
Sean,
The bunkering at Deal is not the strength of the course. In a few spots, it is brilliant and defines holes brilliantly. I am thinking here of 2, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, and 14. Yet even these holes are about much more than just the bunkering. I agree that some of the bunkering does not make a ton of sense. However, these bunkers are minimalist, well-present, and harmless. In general, the contours of the land are the key at Deal. Let's look at the best holes on the property: 3, 6, 15-17. All of these holes are defined by vexing ground contours and brilliant greens. The bunkers are sometimes in play, but they are little more than a distraction.
I find it hard to criticize the bunkering at Deal because that golf course, unlike too many other courses, is not about "the bunkering." I've become more and more skeptical about the necessity of bunkering after playing courses like Deal and Huntercombe. It's really an overused and unnecessary hazard.
Reading these threads makes me wish more and more that I had been on hand for the sloppy stag weekend.
Adam
Protect the boundary? Perhaps pedestrians, but then the club isn't terribly worried about the pedestrians on the sea wall - tee hee. Scott's change takes the tee shot over a pedestrian walk. It may make the hole better, but I would bet the archie would get behind that idea.
JNC
So now we have the Dealers defending the bunker scheme at Deal. Do you all use the same optometrist? Here is a heads up, the bunkering is very ordinary. The best bunkering on the course is #10. After that, there are very few very well placed bunkers. Fairway #11 and greenside #12 are both very good. Most of the rest are either obvious or unnecessary.
Ciao
Sean,
I think I'll concede that the bunkering at Deal is ordinary. However, as I said before, the bunkering is not what Deal is about. Therefore, the mediocre nature of the bunkering does not bother me that much. In many cases, the bunkering at Deal could just be eliminated, and the strategy would not change the course that much. Criticizing Deal for its use of bunkering is like criticizing Woking or Swinley Forest for its use of water hazards. The use of bunkering at Deal is so sparse, why is it that important in judging the overall quality of the course. Deal is great because it DOESN'T overuse bunkers.
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So you like the bunkering at 10-12 and 1, 4, 6, 17, 18, 3 green, 15 green and 16 green are bunkerless... That doesn't leave a whole lot of the golf course.
Scott
I actually only named a handful of bunkers, included in which was an entire hole. IMO, many of the bunkers don't really improve the course for Joe Bloggs. I did forget one other bunker which is very cool, the far right one on #14. The recovery from there looks nasty and I happen to like the random nature of catching it instead of the two much easier to deal with bunkers closer to the green.
JNC
I agree that many bunkers could be eliminated and that Deal is better than the bunker placement would indicate because its a great piece of land. The flow from flat, to rolly polly, to flat to rolly polly to flat is very fine.
Tuco
Granted, I have essentially only seen two winds at Deal, but I have played Deal a great many times over a great many years. The other main winds wouldn't materially effect how well placed the bunkering is or how unnecessary much of it is. I say if there is a good piece of land, why muck it up with sand?
Ciao
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I need to read all these posts properly but:
8th - where do you hit it down wind?? Well the green is flat, 35 yards deep and you're hitting 9 iron or wedge. I suggest hitting the green as it's a massive target. Those who find the shot impossible should stick to the range.
13th - Scott you need to try it sometime from the right hand tee, the hole is a disaster. Firstly 90% of the time it plays against the wind or from 1 or 2 o'clock. From the right hand tee the average player has to play left of the bunkers as they cannot carry them, leaving 200+, if you go over the bunkers you are hitting to a shallow downhill fairway with rough ahead of you. 13 isn't a great hole but its actually more about distance judgement and control on the second shot than the drive.
I have always said that our general bunkering is weak and needs improving although we do have some neat bunkers. 5th left fairway and left green, 7th right fairway and left green, 10th left fairway, 11th left fairway and right short, 12th left fairway (this is only about 5 years old) and left green, 14th three greenside, 16th short right and the pits on 17th.
Martin Ebert wants to add around 9 new bunkers which will greatly enhance the course.
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Martin Ebert wants to add around 9 new bunkers which will greatly enhance the course.
Are there nine that could be filled in to keep Sean from getting in a tizzy about "overbunkering?" ;D
From my several plays a year ago, I rather admired the bunkering at Deal, particularly the cross bunkers.
I look forward to refreshing my memory Tuesday afternoon!
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Bill the short and unworthy bunkers have already been filled in. Since I joined in 1999 from memory the bunker changes are;
2 - short right fairway filled in, new right fairway around 260 from back tee, left greenside moved about 5yds closer to green
3 - dreadful left fairway bunker built and filled in - you can see the area on google maps. New right fairway bunker built - this is for the forthcoming new back tees.
5 - two right fairway bunkers about 150 and 100 from green filled in, new right side fairway bunker approx 40yds from green built.
8 - two right rear bunkers filled in.
10 - two new right fairway bunkers, short right bunker moved about 10yds closer to green. Left greenside filled in
12 - very short cross bunkers filled in, left fairway bunker built
16 - left bunker 20yds short of green cut into dune filled in
17 - very short cross bunker filled in
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Bill the short and unworthy bunkers have already been filled in. Since I joined in 1999 from memory the bunker changes are;
2 - short right fairway filled in, new right fairway around 260 from back tee, left greenside moved about 5yds closer to green
3 - dreadful left fairway bunker built and filled in - you can see the area on google maps. New right fairway bunker built - this is for the forthcoming new back tees.
5 - two right fairway bunkers about 150 and 100 from green filled in, new right side fairway bunker approx 40yds from green built.
8 - two right rear bunkers filled in.
10 - two new right fairway bunkers, short right bunker moved about 10yds closer to green. Left greenside filled in
12 - very short cross bunkers filled in, left fairway bunker built
16 - left bunker 20yds short of green cut into dune filled in
17 - very short cross bunker filled in
I was just concerned about Sean's blood pressure. ;D
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Bill the short and unworthy bunkers have already been filled in. Since I joined in 1999 from memory the bunker changes are;
2 - short right fairway filled in, new right fairway around 260 from back tee, left greenside moved about 5yds closer to green
3 - dreadful left fairway bunker built and filled in - you can see the area on google maps. New right fairway bunker built - this is for the forthcoming new back tees.
5 - two right fairway bunkers about 150 and 100 from green filled in, new right side fairway bunker approx 40yds from green built.
8 - two right rear bunkers filled in.
10 - two new right fairway bunkers, short right bunker moved about 10yds closer to green. Left greenside filled in
12 - very short cross bunkers filled in, left fairway bunker built
16 - left bunker 20yds short of green cut into dune filled in
17 - very short cross bunker filled in
I was just concerned about Sean's blood pressure. ;D
Ace
My blood pressure is fine thank you very much. It is heartening to witness at least two Dealies who can see their club course with the blinders off. I am getting somehwere with the
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/sandcastlehate2.jpg)Campaign.
I hope the weather is fine for you and that a good time is had by all on Tuesday & Wednesday.
Ciao
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Sean you hate sand and long grass, join Westward Ho! and just play 17 and 18.
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Sean you hate sand and long grass, join Westward Ho! and just play 17 and 18.
No, I have no desire to join Westward Ho! I will leave it for the guys who dig the rushes.
Ciao
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Bill the short and unworthy bunkers have already been filled in. Since I joined in 1999 from memory the bunker changes are;
2 - short right fairway filled in, new right fairway around 260 from back tee, left greenside moved about 5yds closer to green
3 - dreadful left fairway bunker built and filled in - you can see the area on google maps. New right fairway bunker built - this is for the forthcoming new back tees.
5 - two right fairway bunkers about 150 and 100 from green filled in, new right side fairway bunker approx 40yds from green built.
8 - two right rear bunkers filled in.
10 - two new right fairway bunkers, short right bunker moved about 10yds closer to green. Left greenside filled in
12 - very short cross bunkers filled in, left fairway bunker built
16 - left bunker 20yds short of green cut into dune filled in
17 - very short cross bunker filled in
I was just concerned about Sean's blood pressure. ;D
Ace
My blood pressure is fine thank you very much. It is heartening to witness at least two Dealies who can see their club course with the blinders off. I am getting somehwere with the
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/sandcastlehate2.jpg)Campaign.
I hope the weather is fine for you and that a good time is had by all on Tuesday & Wednesday.
Ciao
Deal Hater-
You are like Lady Astor to Winston Churchill, an annoyance re: Deal.
I had a conversation yesterday with someone who is self proclaimed beloved in the world of golf about Deal who has it in his world top 50. And he told me of a well traveled Golf Magazine panelist who feels the same who recently saw it. Add in a journalist I know who also visited and saw it as a superior venue to Sandwich and methinks it is you who has the blinders on.
That is why I don't love the adding bunker schemes-- Can anyone figure out a course other than Tandridge where they lost over 100 bunkers that is made better by ADDING bunkers? It is purely a low marker play, solely for them. I think tightening up a few shots here and there is fine if the course hosts the Open Championship, the bunkers that have been filled in of late were either egregious or just plain not in play. There is a short bunker on #6 on the left, why is it there, because the hole played from a completely different tee donkey's years ago.
I asked Ran yesterday about if he would advocate adding bunkers to Deal. Now unfortunately, I RESPECT Ran's eyes.. And he told me, WTF would they do that for...
Call me a Deal homer, fine.. But I'll take Deal over all the other Open Championship courses save TOC for member play..
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Noel I did point out most ideas are unlikely to come to fruition.
Fast links greens only suit flatter green complexes. Traditionally Hunstanton were the quickest in the UK getting up to 11, RCP aim for 10. With the slopes any quicker and a moderate breeze has the ball rolling on the putting surface. Playability quickly becomes an issue.
More than any other feature of a course bunkers evolve all the time, new pits are dug, others filled in and bunkers moved. TOC is the only real exception to this. Snapshots in time do not work.
Do nothing for 20 years and RCP will still be a very fine course.
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Chappers-
I understand your points, but Deal's greens are no more contoured than Augusta and those green speeds are very high.
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Bill the short and unworthy bunkers have already been filled in. Since I joined in 1999 from memory the bunker changes are;
2 - short right fairway filled in, new right fairway around 260 from back tee, left greenside moved about 5yds closer to green
3 - dreadful left fairway bunker built and filled in - you can see the area on google maps. New right fairway bunker built - this is for the forthcoming new back tees.
5 - two right fairway bunkers about 150 and 100 from green filled in, new right side fairway bunker approx 40yds from green built.
8 - two right rear bunkers filled in.
10 - two new right fairway bunkers, short right bunker moved about 10yds closer to green. Left greenside filled in
12 - very short cross bunkers filled in, left fairway bunker built
16 - left bunker 20yds short of green cut into dune filled in
17 - very short cross bunker filled in
I was just concerned about Sean's blood pressure. ;D
Ace
My blood pressure is fine thank you very much. It is heartening to witness at least two Dealies who can see their club course with the blinders off. I am getting somehwere with the
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/jkmoore1120/sandcastlehate2.jpg)Campaign.
I hope the weather is fine for you and that a good time is had by all on Tuesday & Wednesday.
Ciao
Deal Hater-
You are like Lady Astor to Winston Churchill, an annoyance re: Deal.
I had a conversation yesterday with someone who is self proclaimed beloved in the world of golf about Deal who has it in his world top 50. And he told me of a well traveled Golf Magazine panelist who feels the same who recently saw it. Add in a journalist I know who also visited and saw it as a superior venue to Sandwich and methinks it is you who has the blinders on.
Chappers has to deal (pun intended) with Deal politics.. And that imho has to do with how the course scores. Sadly, Sandwich plays several shots harder (some of this can be fixed with adding length on the front 9 and I have no problem for tournament play with 16 playing as a par 4). To me this is silly, TOC is capable of mid to low 60s on a benign day in the Open Championship, that same day may yield scores a few strokes higher at Carnoustie. I DON'T CARE about that, Bernard Darwin wouldnt care either, it is the merit of the strategies, not how hard your golf course is.
That is why I don't love the adding bunker schemes-- Can anyone figure out a course other than Tandridge where they lost over 100 bunkers that is made better by ADDING bunkers? It is purely a low marker play, solely for them. I think tightening up a few shots here and there is fine if the course hosts the Open Championship, the bunkers that have been filled in of late were either egregious or just plain not in play. There is a short bunker on #6 on the left, why is it there, because the hole played from a completely different tee donkey's years ago.
Chappers told me of a few bunker changes they are looking at.. Several called for making you hit shots off the tee, like #11 and #13..The shots that are being requested make no sense to me with added bunkers. A fade is already the preferred shot for example on #13, putting bunkers in the landing zone left for example which is proposed-- 1) causes visual overload with the crossbunkers already there, 2) into the southwesterly which is penalizing you left to begin with, some marginally good shots will be punished.. Besides 13 defends itself at the green, there is a reason the pro Andrew Reynolds told me never to give a putt away to a competitor on that hole.
A similar bunker strategy in reverse is proposed on #11--this time for a draw. Well call me Tuco but you can bail out all day right on #11 and have a longer shot and poorer angle in.. Two bunkers there to protect that side is overkill..
There were an idea to add ones on #2 and #16, I am less upset about those. I'd rather Deal add length and speed up the greens for Amateur and hopefully Open Play.
I asked Ran yesterday about if he would advocate adding bunkers to Deal. Now unfortunately, I RESPECT Ran's eyes.. And he told me, WTF would they do that for...
Call me a Deal homer, fine.. But I'll take Deal over all the other Open Championship courses save TOC for member play..
Tuco
I am not terribly bothered or overly impressed by so called expert opinion. I have seen Deal more than enough to form an opinon. I don't know if Deal is a top 50 course or not and I don't care. That said, I agree with you in that they could do nothing at Deal and its a very fine course. They could take out 10 bunkers and its a very fine course. They could add six bunkers and its a very fine course. They could add 10 and take out six and its very fine course. We are talking about detail which wouldn't alter what Deal is or what it is about. My preferences are for less sand when the land is ideal for golf and if I were a member I would be against changes just to make the course harder. Any change should be to make the course more interesting or to use the land better.
While Deal isn't and likely never will be one of my favourites I would take it over every current Open venue except one; Sandwich. And there is only one other previous Open course I would take over Deal - Prestwick. High praise for a Deal Hater with blinders on.
Ciao
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Tuco and Sean,
Would you both agree that no more bunkers are needed at Deal? I think some of these bunker schemes are overbearing and unnecessary. Deal does not need more bunkers. Deal relies on wind, terrain, and especially the GREENS for its defense. Why distract from these three things?
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John et al - courses evolve, if we agree the bunkering is probably about right then the 20 changes in bunkering since I joined in 1999 were all good moves to get to this position, at the time of changes some people would have been complaining about messing with the course. There are also around a dozen new tees, some longer others moved and some for seniors/ladies. the greens have been allowed to get bigger again creating excellent new pins on 3 front right and 7 & 13 back right.
Looking at plans from 100 years ago there have been literally hundreds of changes to the course.
My point is golf courses are living breathing things that do not stand still.
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John et al - courses evolve, if we agree the bunkering is probably about right then the 20 changes in bunkering since I joined in 1999 were all good moves to get to this position, at the time of changes some people would have been complaining about messing with the course. There are also around a dozen new tees, some longer others moved and some for seniors/ladies. the greens have been allowed to get bigger again creating excellent new pins on 3 front right and 7 & 13 back right.
Looking at plans from 100 years ago there have been literally hundreds of changes to the course.
My point is golf courses are living breathing things that do not stand still.
Mark,
I like the current bunkering of the course well enough. I would have to know exactly what those changes were between 1999 and now to judge them effectively. My stance is that the bunkering is not the point of Deal, and the course might even be better off without a few of the bunkers that exist now. That being said, I like the course the way it is. I would look at any future changes with a very critical eye.
How far over has the 3rd green moved? I remember from my last visit in May that there was plenty of space for an awesome front-right hole location.
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Front right on 3 is slowly being grown out, there was a great pin there last weekend for Scott's stag that I'd never played before.
I popped down today to meet Mike Whitaker, Bill McBride, Joe Beuler and Craig Disher. As I arrived the Duke of York's standard was flying as he was hosting an event at the club, nice touch for our guests. Other than Mike the boys had flown into LGW this morning and were gagging to get out into a 25mph south westerly. Sadly I was short of time so could only watch a keenly fought first hole where Craig managed to sneak a win in ......
Great to see everyone and sad to be mising BUDA.
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Tuco and Sean,
Would you both agree that no more bunkers are needed at Deal? I think some of these bunker schemes are overbearing and unnecessary. Deal does not need more bunkers. Deal relies on wind, terrain, and especially the GREENS for its defense. Why distract from these three things?
JNC
I don't think Deal needs more bunkers and I don't think it would be any worse off with less (which of course begs the question of why some bunkers "are needed"). But I am an extreme minimalist when it comes to sand, espcially on land as good as Deal's.
Ciao
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Made it back to Deal this past weekend. The Dealies managed to organize terrific weather yet again and one Mr Gould was on hand to spin out stories like only folks of his generation can. We all sat listening eagerly before lunch when quite out of the blue Mr Gould mentions taking up golf in 1934 at Walton Heath under the tuition of one James Braid. I gave a zowie look to Sheehy just as he was messing up his face in a mixture of disbelief and awe. Its sounds dopey, but the connection(s) intertwining golfers past and present never felt more real. Anyway, I updated the Deal section of photos. Take a look back on page 1.
Ciao
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Made it back to Deal this past weekend. The Dealies managed to organize terrific weather yet again and one Mr Gould was on hand to spin out stories like only folks of his generation can. We all sat listening eagerly before lunch when quite out of the blue Mr Gould mentions taking up golf in 1934 at Walton Heath under the tuition of one James Braid. I gave a zowie look over at SWAG Sheehy just as he messing up his face in a mixture of disbelief and awe. Its sounds dopey, but the connection(s) intertwining golfers past and present never felt more real. Anyway, I updated the Deal section of photos. Take a look.
Ciao
Listening to "Gouldy" was a real highlight of the weekend. I challenge any club to name a character as charming / interesting etc. At 84 years of age, he played 54 holes carrying his own bag - also, I have seen people stop at the halfway hut for a quick pint, not for an entire bottle of Rose! That seems to be the way of things at Deal, I am discovering...
Sean, could you not have made one paltry mention of my eagle at 6?!!
SWAG
Oh yeah, Sheehy had a very fine eagle on #6. Pretty as a picture it was soaring over the hill. However, as beautiful as that tee shot was, the interesting thing is the ball landed on a tee not more than 10 feet from the hole. I did notice that Sheehy didn't putt the ball as it lay.
Ciao
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Sean,
Thanks for the updated pics. Always good to see pictures of Deal and hear stories of the club and its members!
Sean, could you not have made one paltry mention of my eagle at 6?!!
Modest Mr Sheehy, very modest... ;D
Cheers,
James
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James,
You'll just have to be content with being one of the few people to drive (and hold) the green from the members' tee.
Of course you totally gagged on the 10ft eagle putt, but let's not allow that to overshadow your achievement in earning the 10ft eagle putt! ;D
Brian: Early in my time at Deal I played with a pair of members who between them belonged to the R&A and HCEG. We met up at 8am for breakfast and with their bacon and egg rolls one ordered a double vodka and cranberry and the other a very large sherry. At the hut they split a bottle of red, while a former captain and his wife joined us and walked 10-12 while drinking a glass of red each. I was astounded, but after that I realised many Deal members only play golf as something to do between drinks. Of course my introduction to the club was meeting a still very drunk Mark Chaplin in the carpark of the Royal Hotel at 8am on a Saturday, so really I was a bit slow on the uptake.
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Sean,
I'm inclined to agree with much of your commentary and I must say I am pleased to see the club move up to 1* status in your book.
I'd quibble with you on the merits of the 14th, but all in all it's nice to see you sipping more plentifully from the kool aid.
I've often thought of the unfortunate similarities of the 9th and 11th. To me the obvious solution is to re-route the 9th fairway about 50m left, through the much more undulating ground to the left of the cavernous fairway trap, or by building a tee on the 11th another 30m along the sea wall to generate a left-to-right shape (with the fairway bunker also relocated to the right).
Those holes are fine holes for the land they are on, but I am not convinced one or both couldn't be improved.
The drive bunkers on 15 are just confusing because if you take them on you're in knee-high rough.
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Scott
Yes, the 14th. Two issues really. With only three par 3s I don't think a long one is a good plan. Placing a long par 3 in that stretch coming back isn't really helping to create a good ebb and flow. A short par 3 is a good opportunity for a breather.
The back n' forth at the far end is a bit of a let down, but these are okay holes. Only 9 and 11 are just too similar. Maybe the 9th can be pushed further left. I didn't explore this land very well, but it is low lying compared to the fairway - no? If this is the case, I would not be keen for another patch of very lush meadowy fairway to be created. The course has a problem with this already as there are several of these areas.
Ciao
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That being so, Sean. In either of the most typical winds you've probably hit roughly 9i, 7i or 7i, 6i at 4 and 8.
As for a breather, 16 and 17 are both short for their par, though still can trip you up if you lose focus.
With 4 and 8 both measuring about 150 yards, I don't where it would be preferable for 14 to be shorter.
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Here I go again... Ah Sean, why must you awaken Tuco from slumber
Yes 9 and 11 are alike. But the angles for the tee shot are different and #11 has the Ancient highway to fiddle with if you try to run an approach thru.. Unlikely but still.
#14-- what's not to like.. The left side of the hole where many a chip is needed is a wonderful recovery area. The green also has merit for slope etc. Sand and hummocks right. You miss your long iron or hybrid and this hole takes a pound of flesh.
#15--you are whinging about the fairway bunkers. Come on, the 15th is all about the crazy fairway contours and moguls, plus your ability to hit the 2nd shot correctly. In a northerly you have to die it right before the green and let the contours run it on or you will be in the hay past the green. It is a delicate shot, trust me. In the SW wind, you can still die it there with a run-up but more likely it is tough to judge the correct length of the approach. Also, I've been in the left bunker tons of time, there is some contour before the green which shunts you there and that is bogey city as the green runs away from you.. 15 is brilliant.
Deal has it all and a great clubhouse,pro and historian too..
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Scott
Yes, that is a problem with shortening #14 and part of the reason why I think the 3s as a set are not impressive - definitely the weak link of Deal.
Tuco
Yes, 9 and 11 have slightly different driving angles, but too similar with too similar a fairway bunker pattern to be repeated twice in three holes. 15 is a very good hole not made any better by the bunkers.
Ciao
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Deal has 3 World Class holes for me, in the 3rd, 6th and 16th, but its that run of tough holes on the back nine that really make the course one heck of a challenge, so don't go shortening the 14th! I don't see anything wrong with a long par 3 in amongst that run of tough holes?
You'll just have to be content with being one of the few people to drive (and hold) the green from the members' tee.
:-[
Of course you totally gagged on the 10ft eagle putt, but let's not allow that to overshadow your achievement in earning the 10ft eagle putt! ;D
>:(
Cheers,
James
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Deal has 3 World Class holes for me, in the 3rd, 6th and 16th, but its that run of tough holes on the back nine that really make the course one heck of a challenge, so don't go shortening the 14th! I don't see anything wrong with a long par 3 in amongst that run of tough holes?
Boony
I don't know, my list of possibly great holes at Deal are 3, 4, 6, 15, 16 and 17. I couldn't say for sure if any are world class (is this different from great?) except probably 6. But I like the drive at 10 as the best tee shot on the course and probably 18 as the best approach.
Ciao
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The prevailing wind tends to be against for the second shots on 9 & 11. The last 7 holes tend to have the wind from 2 o'clock.
14 tends to play with wind from the right.
1-7 and 14-18 are holes over a 100 years old (other than Sandy Parlour) so I doubt they'll be any major changes!
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Deal's routing cannot be criticized, especially if you look at the dunescape, when it came into play etc. Besides if you criticize Deal's rounting, you must critique TOC as they are basically the same, narrow out and back with a loop at the end. Deal is the same.. Out to 9, loop 10-11, 12 back home
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The routing at Deal is the way it is because of where the sandy dunes-land falls on that property. If you walk a few yards inland from the edge of the course, you come upon billiard table-flat farmland that drains poorly. The course is shaped the way it is to make the most of the links land at the edge of the English Channel. The routing came into that form out of necessity rather than a desire to have an out-and-back configuration. Furthermore, the course has enough turns and loops in it to make it so the wind is ever changing. The only time a player gets a prolonged stretch in one direction is 12-18, and the wind usually changes at least once in that time. Sean, et al, if you think the routing is weak at Deal, I'd like to see a better suggestion on how to change it.
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Settle down Dealies. The routing is a product of the property. On the plus side, the property elevation changes are ideal for golf. On the negative side, the shape of the property dictates the routing. Consequently, the holes don't provide a lot of wind variation. Yes, TOC (and Burnham) suffers the same problem. I have said this again and again. Now, its hard to fathom how guys that don't mind the routing at TOC and give it very high marks yet give Deal only good marks. I can understand some leniency due to originality; the double greens and fairway pots make up a huge percentage of that originality. But, I can't see 3-4 DS point difference between the two courses. This is especially the case when one considers the 2-6 stretch and the 9th at TOC. In terms of quality I think TOC just pips Deal, but they are in the same general class, which is very high. Now again, my personal preference is for more wind variation and I especially don't like several holes in a row playing with the same wind. You Dealies can go back and forth about this forever and a day, but there it is.
Ciao
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I for one like the out and back nature.. I know what I'm going to get, and I know what need to be played. Also, I must admit this, I like playing the course more in a northerly. Yes it removes the sheer delight of trying to drive the 6th but it makes the course more interesting to play with the shot values reversed..
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Nice to see a bit of discussion around Deal. And i like the term Dealies also. :)
Personally i like the challenge of all those holes back into the wind on the back 9 with the 14th being an integral part of that. The fact there is no rest bite is an important part of what makes it such a challenge. One I often fail, but a fun challenge nonetheless.
Noel thanks for tipa on playing 15. i will take that onboard next time i am there.
Also does anybody have any thoughts on the 7th both as a hole and the best strategy to play it? I have never figured out the best way to play the second shot.
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MW - I recommend 3 wood aimed at the left centre fairway bunker to leave a shot of around 120yds. Aim at the left side of the green to use the back slop (if necessary). Do not chase the lovely back right pin position as miss it long or right and you are dead.
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MW - On seven, I think the play depends on the pin.
To a front pin, I like to drive it down the left to take the front right away-slope out of play.
To a centre or back pin, I like to be down the right so I can hit my approach at the backboard slope on the back left, which feeds to most middle and back pin positions provided you hit the correct part ohe slope, but even if you go a bit long or short it tends to leave a reasonably straightforward birdie try from inside 15-20ft.
Front pins are easily the most difficult, IMO, especially downwind. The front right slope, the false front, the bunker left... there is a lot that can go wrong.
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Brian S:
I have heard courses being described as greater than the sum of their individual parts - could there be an argument that Deal is less than the combination of its individually great holes due to an unbalanced out and back routing? I see what you're saying, James, in that the course needs that long par 3 to provide overall balance (as the front nine is far easier to score on), but after coming off a drubbing at 12 and 13, one is a bit weary standing on the 14th faced with that shot...in an ideal world, there would be one long difficult par 3 on the front 9 with 14 being the breather. I guess you could call 16 and 17 breathers but they don't feel that way with a stiff breeze in your face standing on the tee! But then I am working on the assumption that the prevailing wind is in your face on those holes - others say differently...
Now that you're a member, I hope you'll head down frequently, year-round and in doing so discover the myth of the wind always blowing into you on the back nine is just that - a myth.
As Mark says, when the wind blows from that general direction it more often than not is more into you approaching 9 and 11 than approaching the holes on the run home.
On 13, in two years I was cautious of driving into the cross bunkers more often than I was worried about having a long iron approach shot.
On 15, I can count on one hand the times I hit more than a 6i in provided I found at l;east the semi-rough, and often I reckon that near vertical slope on the dune in the middle of the fairway prevented that being an 8i.
On 17, again, maybe twice in 40-odd rounds I hit more than a 9i in there, and generally I was taking a bit off a driver so I didn't risk my tee shot going into the cross bunkers.
The other myth is that all of those holes play in the exact same direction and that the wind will blow from the same direction for the entire back nine.
I never knew the wind at Deal to remain even in direction or intensity for more than half an hour at a time.
As for the direction of the holes, if you consider the lines on the map below showing the shot angles from 12-18, you're hardly playing in exactly the same direction, shot after shot, for seven holes. Add in the fact the wind is going to shift during that 90-minute stretch, the sheer quality and exhileration of the approaches to (and recovery shots around the greens at) 12, 15, 16 and 17 coupled with the great challenge of 14 and 18 and I am convinced anyone who wants to quible about the closing stretch at Deal is simply trying to find something to criticise.
14-18 is one of the finest closing stretches in all of golf.
(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8022/deallines.jpg)
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Scott
Therein lies the difference in our perceptions of the back nine. You don't mind the generally VERY similar wind pattern from 12-18. The subtle differences of wind direction are enough to satisfy you. Fair enough. I don't find this setup anywhere near ideal even if it is Deal.
Point of interest, my understanding was that folks were saying the prevailing wind was generally downwind on the back nine. Now it makes much more sense to me. Yes, the wind, every time I have played Deal over the course of 20 years has been quartering off the right or into coming home. Sunday was the first time I encountered a decent wind off the right and I found this far easier to cope with than into. In fact, for me, the front nine was far more challenging with the wind off the left and #8 straight downwind.
NW - I like your "rest bite" quote. That is very Rihcelinesque.
Ciao
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Brian,
I completely agree there are weaknesses, but the "long run home into a punishing wind" is played up a lot more than is the reality. The truth is it doesn't blow from that direction as often or as strongly as some people like to make out and as Mark C added, the wind we do get a lot from that direction is more from 2 o'clock than straight into your face for the most part.
I agree a routing that allows the wind to hit you from different angles every hole or every few holes is a fantastic strength, I simply don't think Deal suffers too greatly because while 14 holes play to two broad compass points, 8-11 play to the other points of the compass, two each way, and the routing changes direction six times during the round (after the 1st, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th holes). It's not a case of one wind direction for nine holes and then another wind direction for nine holes.
In my opinion, Deal's greatest weakness is the lacklustre land over which 8-11 are played, as well as the similarities between 9 and 11 and between the drives at 13 and 15. The 8th hole is a weakness. That's really it, IMO, and my list of its strengths would be far lengthier and the factors far more significant.
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I'm always surprised by the number of people who say the eighth is weak. The hole looks like it belongs at Muirfield to me, and that's rarely a bad thing.
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Adam
The 8th is a great opportunity to control ball run-out as a downwindish hole, but the bunker scheme makes this nearly impossible (very similar to St Enodoc's 8th!). There is so little room for a run-up and from the right tee the left bunker can't be seen.
Scott
I look at the wind issue a bit differently. As a minor championship course its not a huge issue to beat back from the 12th. Thats part and parcel of championship golf and so I wouldn't tick too much off the quality for that. For instance, I think Deal is better than Muirfield despite Muirfield having a huge advantage with its routing, but Deal has a huge advantage with its terrain being far more interesting. Its just my personal preference not to have a wind situation like Deal has and to me its a major flaw. So from this perspective its difficult to count Deal among my favourites even though it is a very good course with a lot of compelling shots.
Ciao
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8th weak......hmmm.
It's one of only two holes on the course where you have to carry your ball onto the green, however the green is long so there is plenty of room to stop the ball even downwind - as is the first green.
From the "new" back tee the green is set at an angle to the tee and there is a very subtle slope onto the green from the far righthand bunker, with this slope and the left greenside bunkers the idea shot is a slightly cut medium to short iron. Find the green and you can be left with a 30 yard putt.
The 8th is a wonderfully subtle hole, not everyone will get it!
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For all those suggesting that the out and back routing is a weakness, how would you route a golf course on a narrow strip of land?
I'm with Chappers on 8, I just don't see how it can be described as weak. Other than that, I pretty much agree with Scott.
Much as I love Deal, though, I can't buy Sean's suggestion that it's a better course than Muirfield!
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8th weak......hmmm.
It's one of only two holes on the course where you have to carry your ball onto the green, however the green is long so there is plenty of room to stop the ball even downwind - as is the first green.
From the "new" back tee the green is set at an angle to the tee and there is a very subtle slope onto the green from the far righthand bunker, with this slope and the left greenside bunkers the idea shot is a slightly cut medium to short iron. Find the green and you can be left with a 30 yard putt.
The 8th is a wonderfully subtle hole, not everyone will get it!
Chappers
Its not a matter of getting it. Its a matter of not enough room to cope with a decent wind. I wasn't even close to holding the green Sunday with a well struckshot landing on the front of the green - certainly short of a slightly forward hole location. I don't know where my ball would have ended up if the sea wall wasn't there - tee hee. Though to be fair, if the area behind the green was cleaned up a bit and the sea wall more gradually graded I wouldn't mind so much not being able to hold the green. There would be a decent opportunity to run one back for a good chance at par. Unfortunately, my ball was hung up in pebbles and dirt making a recovery (and preventing club damage) a dicey matter.
Ciao
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Sounds like you must have been using a ball as hard as a pebble. ;D
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My issues with 8 are along the same lines as Sean.
The green is nigh on impossible to hold downwind. I disagree with Chaplin's claim to the contrary.
I have hit and seen plenty of fine short iron and wedge shots that landed in the front third and finished on the back edge of the green or over it altogether.
Without an option for landing it short, I think that is a pretty big flaw. In all other winds it's a good hole, but wind helping on that hole is reasonably common.
Let's face it - that being my biggest issue goes to show what a fantastic golf course it is.
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I'm always surprised there is so much criticism of playing into a similar wind for give or take 9 holes on an out and back routing. Maybe that's because Deal, Burnham, Brora and North Berwick are all firm favourites of mine and I see the mental challenge of the same wind all part of it?
Cheers,
James
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Sounds like you must have been using a ball as hard as a pebble. ;D
Chappers, maybe you are right! I am no expert on equipment, but I suspect a Srixon Soft Feel is not the best ball to play that hole with. One of the great things about golf in Britain is the ball type can be switched (something still quite alien to me as I grew up with a single ball type rule and so always carried the same type) and I will be sure to play the softest ball in me bag next time.
Scott
Yes, Deal is a lovely course with (so far as I can tell) a very good membership. Plus, spending a few days there with a member is about as good a bargain as one could hope for. I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the dormie house after being led to believe it was less than adequate. Other than the odd siituation of a bedroom doubling as a hallway (but as that section of the house is rented as a single unit it doesn't matter much), I found the accomodation more than adequate. Our lunch on Sunday was very fine. The members of Deal have a lot to be proud of, not least of which is the course.
Ciao
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The 8th green is 39 yards long and the bunker is 3 or 4 yards short of the green. Only twice in the round are you required to carry the ball to the green. There is plenty of space as the 1st is over 40 yards deep and the 8th 39 yards. Surely this is testing every aspect of the game even if it is a generous test unless hard downwind?
Take away the ditch on the 1st and the front bunker on the 8th and everyone will moan any hacker can nob the ball onto every green.
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That being so, Mark, the 1st green has those great ridges running through it that help to stop the ball when the hole is downwind.
The 8th green, in contrast, just has a very, very slight back to front slope.
There's also the fact that downwind you're likely to have no more than 80 yards to the 1st green, while, regardless of the wind, you're playing from about 140-155 yards at the 8th.
And while you can bounce or run a ball onto the 7th and 17th greens, in reality they're greens that really lend themselves to an aerial approach. Especially 17, the slopes in front don't lend themselves to a running ball at all.
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Chappers
The first green is a low lyer encompassing some of the lush turf in the area which isn't as keen as the 8th. The hole also plays across or into the wind. Its a totally different situation from #8. To give you an idea of how keen the 8th was, Whitty bounced his tee shot over the second bunker on the right. I don't know what he hit, but mine was dead straight at the hole and I hit a wedge with the tee marker at about 150. So my wedge went about 180ish with the backstop seawall stopping it a bit. I could have hit a perfectly placed tee shot just covering the bunkers and my ball would have gone long. Thats not a problem if the recovery isn't too harsh, but to hit the shot I did, then end up in pebbles and dirt for my troubles is not what I would call good design. That said, I can accept a bad break and it didn't worry me to have to play a half topped shot recovery. Shit happens in golf, but I wouldn't be pleased if that happened to me with any sort of regularity as being long there suggests may be the outcome.
BTW A 40 yard deep green prevailing downwind on a links sounds awfully short to me and it would be something if I saw on paper I would question.
Ciao
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Sean - OK I'll accept what your saying other than the pebble wall is bad design. needless to say the sea wall was built about 80 years after the 8th by the government and not the golf club! Whilst shorter the Postage Stamp is far more severe short and long (and side to side!!) and the green is only 30 yards long.
Scott - 17 is a runner every time, pitch the ball left into the upslope, I cannot recall ever deliberately pitching onto the green during the season.
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Chappers
I didn't intend to suggest the wall itself is bad design. It is what it is. I wouldn't mind seeing the areas (#10 as well) near the wall which come into play cleaned up a bit. Or, perhaps offer a free drop away from the pebbles when one gets caught up in them. I don't much see the sense of hitting off pebbles when that area should be the prime recovery spot and no more than 10 yards from the green. I am not suggesting an Augusta solution, just a bit of a clean up. I don't know, maybe pebbles continously work their way to the surface making it difficult to keep this area in decent shape?
The discussion on 17 is interesting. I am not sure how to approach that green. Depending on where the flag is, risking going long isn't too bad. When the flag is in the prime spot behind the front ridge and a bit left, I would much rather be long than short. The same ridge is a convenient backboard for the recovery.
Ciao
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Scott - 17 is a runner every time, pitch the ball left into the upslope, I cannot recall ever deliberately pitching onto the green during the season.
That's interesting. I've only played it half a dozen times but I think I have tried to pitch it on the green every time. Including during our singles match last September, when I think I birdied it.
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I'm with you Mark. In 40-odd plays I don't reckon I ever ran the ball up. I always felt the slopes were just too severe and unhelpful.
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I'm getting confused, the green is 24 yards deep and the front half runs away from you, but the favoured shot is a lob? IMVHO short is the miss especially when the ball rolls into the little hollow on the right as it's an easy putt up. More chance of winning the lottery than an up and down from behind the green!
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IMO the slope at the back left and the back right both make a high shot the play. The ball will stop quickly regardless of the wind.
In any case Chapski, someone capable of hitting the cut mid iron you describe that lands just over the front right trap at the 8th shouldn't have too much drama hitting a 24-yard-deep green with a wedge! ;D
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2681/p9150228.jpg)
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In any case Chapski, someone capable of hitting the cut mid iron you describe that lands just over the front right trap at the 8th shouldn't have too much drama hitting a 24-yard-deep green with a wedge! ;D
Just beautiful. Just effin beautiful.
Ciao
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I'm getting confused, the green is 24 yards deep and the front half runs away from you, but the favoured shot is a lob? IMVHO short is the miss especially when the ball rolls into the little hollow on the right as it's an easy putt up. More chance of winning the lottery than an up and down from behind the green!
Chappers
It was a piece of piss on Sunday and I was all the way through down near the hay. I just scuttled a 6 iron up there with the front of the green as a natural backboard. I must say I don't fancy hitting a flat shot to a steeply uphill blind spot over two large bunkers for the bounce up. The wind would have to be pretty strong to attempt a shot like that.
Ciao
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NW - I like your "rest bite" quote. That is very Rihcelinesque.
Forgive my ignorance Sean but what does Rihcelinesque mean? Even the wonders of Google could not help me out. ;D
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You know Sean, you really have a psychosis.. Seriously.. You seem to speak of the merits and detriments of Deal in the same sentences. You like it, but you don't love it, but you seem to play it often and upon more plays you seem to understand it and like it more, yet you lament the shortcomings (as you see them) as greater. I'm just using your words Sean. What are you afraid of? To admit that Deal is the best venue for the Open currently not on the rota? That it is a better course for the Open than several courses on the rota?
A few observations--
#17- no one talks about Vardon's parlour and the advantage to hitting there. The flatter lie allows a greater variety of approaches. For my money and I spent a lot of time with Russell Talley looking at 17 green, the best play is the right side of the green (the front right) will bounce you left. Some of that hole is just rub of the green, no doubt about it, I agree I never try to bump it up there, down wind it is a flip wedge and hope but I can say that for a ton of links golf holes.
#8, it is the only shot at the Channel. The wind is never exactly behind you. In the SW, a hard fade will hold the green. Into a northerly, Ive hit push hooks and prayed. Also, you can miss back left by the 9th tee and have a relatively easy chip for par.
Where Deal is weak in my opinion:
1) Width--yes I'd prefer a bit more width off the tee (left side of 12 to bailout), more to the right on 15 and 16 (don't forget the 16th fairway has changed a ton from the early days (where it was).
2) I'd like another par 3
3) I'd like to see the original Sandy Parlour
4) The 9th is a good green, I would like to see the fairway changed a bit to make the hazard more of a center one if possible.
BUT, in lieu of me becoming a designer, leave it as the gem it is , the course is ignored by many, doesnt find itself high on ranking lists as it should. I prefer to let ignorance run its course. Tell me what links course in Britain has better greens than Deal. Between #1,3,4,10,13,15,16,17, there is not so much variety and fun as at Deal.
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NW - I like your "rest bite" quote. That is very Rihcelinesque.
Forgive my ignorance Sean but what does Rihcelinesque mean? Even the wonders of Google could not help me out. ;D
Search "Rich Goodale"--a former,and greatly missed,poster.
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I think Deal should just be relished as it is, a low key gem and a great match play course. During my five or six rounds, the wind has always seemed just a bit different.
The only change I'd like to see is the removal of the seawall so one could see the ocean more frequently, but I guess that's not going to happen.....
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You know Sean, you really have a psychosis.. Seriously.. You seem to speak of the merits and detriments of Deal in the same sentences. You like it, but you don't love it, but you seem to play it often and upon more plays you seem to understand it and like it more, yet you lament the shortcomings (as you see them) as greater. I'm just using your words Sean. What are you afraid of? To admit that Deal is the best venue for the Open currently not on the rota? That it is a better course for the Open than several courses on the rota?
A few observations--
#17- no one talks about Vardon's parlour and the advantage to hitting there. The flatter lie allows a greater variety of approaches. For my money and I spent a lot of time with Russell Talley looking at 17 green, the best play is the right side of the green (the front right) will bounce you left. Some of that hole is just rub of the green, no doubt about it, I agree I never try to bump it up there, down wind it is a flip wedge and hope but I can say that for a ton of links golf holes.
#8, it is the only shot at the Channel. The wind is never exactly behind you. In the SW, a hard fade will hold the green. Into a northerly, Ive hit push hooks and prayed. Also, you can miss back left by the 9th tee and have a relatively easy chip for par.
Where Deal is weak in my opinion:
1) Width--yes I'd prefer a bit more width off the tee (left side of 12 to bailout), more to the right on 15 and 16 (don't forget the 16th fairway has changed a ton from the early days (where it was).
2) I'd like another par 3
3) I'd like to see the original Sandy Parlour
4) The 9th is a good green, I would like to see the fairway changed a bit to make the hazard more of a center one if possible.
BUT, in lieu of me becoming a designer, leave it as the gem it is , the course is ignored by many, doesnt find itself high on ranking lists as it should. I prefer to let ignorance run its course. Tell me what links course in Britain has better greens than Deal. Between #1,3,4,10,13,15,16,17, there is not so much variety and fun as at Deal.
Tuco
I guess I am just more objective than you - tee hee. I don't see it being psychotic to think a course is very good, but not one I love. Its not that I like the course more after playing it a few more times this past year, its that I think it is better than I previously thought. You are probably miscronstruing the short comings I mention as a way saying the course is poor. That isn't the case at all. I assume (and have stated many times) that we all understand that Deal is a very good course and that the conversation is couched within that assumption. So far as Deal being the best venue for an Open not on the rota, I personally wouldn't mind if Deal got another Open. Although it suffers many of the same problems TOC does with viewing, course traffic and what I think would be an extreme susceptibility to par being smashed unless the weather was very harsh, thats okay by me. Although, I would rather see Portrush get an Open first and Prestwck second if a new venue were to be considered.
Yes, 17 is a fine hole.
We disagree on 8. Out of interest, how is I get my ball over the 9th tee when the hole is playing downwind? Am I meant to play left of the left bunkers? Am I meant to hit a hook with a wedge?
We agree with the width - I too would like it to be wider.
We agree with the lack of par 3s.
We agree that #9 is a good hole and I think its the best drive on the course.
I don't know where Deal should be in the rankings and I don't care. The course and club have an excellent reputation and that is what matters. Talking about rankings is really just a conversation to have for fun.
The only course in Britain I can think of with better greens than Deal's is TOC. There are a few others which I believe to be the equal of Deal's.
Ciao Ye Man Deal Hater's Club President and Founding Member
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Really enjoying the discussion guys.
Can I turn it to 16th approach?
What are your approaches to getting on in two or three? Do you always go for it in two if your drive is good enough?
Can also do the same for 3 while we're about it?
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Really enjoying the discussion guys.
Can I turn it to 16th approach?
What are your approaches to getting on in two or three? Do you always go for it in two if your drive is good enough?
Can also do the same for 3 while we're about it?
Spangles
What do you do on these two holes?
Ciao
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Sean
The honest answer is my excitement at the possibilities on each hole means I try too hard to hit good drives and thus rarely give myself a crack at them in two.
ON 3, you do get a great view of approach shots from the 4th tee. I do think the aerial approach is worth a go here. When downwind trying to run one in usually results in me having a blind chip from the deep valley just before the green. Also I know you should try and feed it from the left but they move the pin around quite a bit and you don’t want to be too far left or your ball goes straight on and being caught in the rough at the bottom of the bank is not clever.
On 16 I’m all at sea. One of my few ambitions in golf is to hold that green in two (oh and sink the put). I imagine you have to bounce the ball off the dune to the left or the knob on the right of the entrance-I’ve seen the former. Can’t see a ball running up from the valley? Being 230 yards out is not really in my range and so the best play would be two wedges, but it’s very hard to be that disciplined. A glorious set of decisions here.
Interesting how 17 divided opinion and I must take another look at 15, where I always tried to come in from the left.
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Tony,
I agree that going for the green at 16 is just too tempting, despite the fact it's quite a low percentage play.
To me, the pin position dictates where I want to approach from.
If the pin is at the front, I want to be 80 yards or so back, because it's just too tricky a shot from in that valley at the front if the green to a front pin and you run a strong risk of knocking it 70ft past and having a really tough two putt.
But if the pin is at the back, especially the back right, I'm happy having a crack with my second because if the ball doesn't make it up the dune and rolls back, it's a pretty easy chip/pitch to a somewhat gathering pin.
I reckon if you know you will be tempted to go for it despite it being a risky play, just hit an iron off the tee, then bunt another to 100 yards and you're all set. I often resolved to do just that, but when I got too the tee I just couldn't resist taking driver!
I'm inslined to think the shot suits a lefty hitting a draw, who can run the ball up the slpe towards the dune on the right. As it is for me hitting a draw there the natural shape combined with the effect of the dune tends to shove it wide or wash too much speed off, so it nearly crests the dune, but then runs back into the valley.
A pic of the approach from Ran's review:
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/Deal16.jpg)
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I missed some of the discussion on the 8th, but I think it is generally a very solid short par three. On a course with lots of room around most of the greens, the 8th is one hole where the golfer needs to step up and hit a shot. Here is the issue with the statements about 8 being a weak hole: missing the green does not result in the death penalty. A ball finding the right spot (i.e. not right up against the lip) in one of those bunkers leaves a straightforward up and down for a good bunker player. There is a way to avoid the bunkers: miss the green long-left. There is plenty of short grass back there, and it leaves a straightforward up and down. As I recall, Dan Moore and I got it up and down from back there in a foursomes match.
8 is not the best hole on the course. However, it is a solid par three that plays a variety of ways depending on the wind and tee position. Is it too exacting? Hardly. It's the easiest of the three par threes, and a number higher than 3 there should come as a disappointment.
16: I don't care what club you have in there. If you leave it in the "Valley of Inglorious Security" on the second shot, you will have the best opportunity for a birdie. Why? A miss on a second shot takes away almost all chance of birdie, and it makes you grind it out for a five. Scott, a recovery from just short of the green to a back pin is extremely difficult. What club do you hit? Wedge? No, turf is too tight. Putter? Sure, but the ball has to climb a four-foot high wall and is likely to die well short of the back flag. Leave it back in the fairway and wedge on, or leave your fate to the golf gods.
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John,
That section of the 16th fairway right in front of the green is below sea level, as such it is always a bit damper than the rest of the course and the grass is always more lush. A wedge, gap wedge, sand wedge... whatever you like... is fine there. The turf is never as tight there as the rest of the course.
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When Tuco joined Deal, I dunno it was so long ago, about a decade or so I think Chappers was still out with his billy club nicking guys with stockings on their heads out pinching wallets or something. I digress.. But I eagled the 16th once in a friendly that I needed to get into the club. Mr. David Dobby and I were playing fourball against two long time members and it was AS after 15. David's back was quite bothersome then and he was out of the hole while I had hit my first shot in the right rough (wind SW about 15mph). I hacked out with a hybrid to 60y short of the green over right of the valley (about 15 yards right of the knob) and the pin was middle right. All three Englishmen pitied my third as they thought there was no way I could get it close and most likely would be well to make 5. But oh I had a good lie and a lob wedge. I hit a ball with so much spin on it, Newton couldnt calculate the rotations and it bounced once and spun back in the jar for an eagle. One of my opponents said with a wry smile, "Well that was rather disappointing!" Mr. Dobby looked at me and said Eagle! After two horrid shots not even near the fairway, Eagle!
That's how Tuco plays the 16th.
Noel Freeman plays it with the SW to 80 yards and full lob wedge.. With a northerly, it is really hard to hold that green sometimes, I've had 5-6 eagle putts but never holed one..
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Spangles
On #3, by hook or crook one must get past the drop down to the green in two if the pin is up front. Being short is awful and a bit like crazy golf. With that same pin position (either side of the green) my goal is to hit the approach to the right side where the green has been extended. Its a gathering point and not too bad a putt from over there, but still very 3 puttable.
#16, I have never reached this green in two as the wind has never been from a favourable direction for my ball shape. If the pin is back its pretty straight forward hitting from the lush valley short of the green - pick your approach distance. I don't bother with a pick and just bang a hybrid up there and see what gives. The hole is very tolerant of foozled and generally crap second shots. If the pin is up front I don't really know what to do. I think I have only seen this a few times. A layup for full spin effect seems reasonable, but its still a very hard shot. Its a totally different hole depending on front or back hole location.
Ciao
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I think you need to rename this thread from KENT KALEIDOSCOPE to DEAL LOVE-IN :)
I think 3 and 16 are good holes but in all honestly you need a bit of luck to hit either in two. When we played on Saturday I somehow got my drive on 3 to stick between those 2 eye bunkers, then I hit 7 iron which when long through the green (I then took 3 from the edge). On 16 that was back against the wind and it was drive then 5 wood which was a bit low and got a nice killing bounce of the shoulder to finish about 35 ft from the hole. This was of course with the mythical prevailing wind.
Personally I think the the par3's are Ok if a bit dull. I like 3, 10, 13, 16 and 17 best. For whatever reason 6 doesn't float my boat.
IMHO the best par3s on the Kent coast are 3 of the 6 at Prince's. Incidentally, I must post updates to Sean's pictures above to show the same holes as they look now and the new Dormy houses.
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J
Yes, I think #s 2 and 8 on the Dunes are superb with the 8th getting my vote as comfortably the best par 3 of the Kaleidoscope. I also like the Colt-like 2nd very much as well. The Dunes is a cracking nine on a truly under-rated course. Now, when is the club gonna get serious and just call the Shore/Dunes the 18 hole course and the Himalaya the 9 holer? It bugs me when a club thinks they swap out three nines and believe they are equal. Which 27 hole facility in the world can do this and actually be right? I spose there is bound to be some out there, but I haven't experienced it?
Ciao
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I think 7th Dunes is up there too, a bunkerless dune to dune par 3 to a diagonal green. It's easy to get a 4 if you play left but easy to get a lot worse if you push it a little.
I know what you mean about the 27 holes but I think you are harsh on the Himalayas 9. The 1st isn't very inspiring (although improved a little by a new bunker left and pushing the fairway more right behind the dune) but I think 6-9 are very good. This 9 needs work but I also think it has a lot of potential as you get to play holes which require a bit more shot shaping. Although the routing wouldn't work I'd like to replace 2 on shore (2 and 8 ) and 9 on Dunes with 6,7 and 9 from Hims. The club is 2 years into the Troongolf mangement and things are definitely getting better and there's a bit more life around the place (although being Open year that's also a factor).
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Missing eagle putt from 18" on 16 was a low point especially as we were playing foursomes.....my partner was muchos unhappy.
3 & 16 both have oodles of quirk and to be frank require a slight element of good fortune. However isn't that what a 500yd par 5 should be all about? Hit your second within 20yds of the green and both holes produce a good chance of a 4 or a 6!
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#16, I have never reached this green in two as the wind has never been from a favourable direction for my ball shape. If the pin is back its pretty straight forward hitting from the lush valley short of the green - pick your approach distance. I don't bother with a pick and just bang a hybrid up there and see what gives. The hole is very tolerant of foozled and generally crap second shots. If the pin is up front I don't really know what to do. I think I have only seen this a few times. A layup for full spin effect seems reasonable, but its still a very hard shot. Its a totally different hole depending on front or back hole location.
Ciao
Sean,
I think your statement about 16 that "the hole is very tolerant of foozled and generally crap second shots" is exactly what makes the hole so interesting. The low-lying hollow on the second shot is, after all, "The Valley of Inglorious Security." The golfer can hit two non-descript shots to get into that valley and still have a great chance at a 5 or a 4. On the other hand, a golfer can hit two great shots and make a 4, or he can hit two great shots and make 6, depending on his fortune. This is what links golf is all about: a balance of skill and fortune. Remember, the golfer can hit two crappy shots into the valley, but he still has to execute from there to make a good number. Ultimately, the 16th can be played all sorts of ways, and it is fun for a golfer at any level. For that reason, it is a great par five.
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Young JNC
There is no question 16 is a great par 5.
All, please see the updated Deal part of this tour on page 1.
I am stunned that Doak rated Ashdown above Deal. The crime of the century?
Ciao
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That place don't look half bad. I might just up and go play there, maybe in just a few weeks!
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As far as I know given my last correspondence with Herr Doak, he has no been back to Deal since 1994.. I had invited him on several occasions but TD is a busy man.. Having played RAF several times, I think Tom would think otherwise now, but what do I know..
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Sean, what is your beef with the bunker short right on 3? I've been in their plenty of times when trying to avoid that left hill...seems ideally placed to me
Brian
1. The bunker is ugly and amateurish looking.
2. The bunker is designed for the par 5 back tee - flat belly stuff. There is absolutely no need for a bunker there for daily play. The hole is 450ish yards with a blind second to funky green. Too much attention here paid to how flat bellies play. Wouldn't it be simpler to call the hole a par 4 for the flat bellies and get rid of the bunker? Chasing extra yardage rarely leads to good design.
Ciao
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Sean, what is your beef with the bunker short right on 3? I've been in their plenty of times when trying to avoid that left hill...seems ideally placed to me
Brian
1. The bunker is ugly and amateurish looking.
2. The bunker is designed for the par 5 back tee - flat belly stuff. There is absolutely no need for a bunker there for daily play. The hole is 450ish yards with a blind second to funky green. Too much attention here paid to how flat bellies play. Wouldn't it be simpler to call the hole a par 4 for the flat bellies and get rid of the bunker? Chasing extra yardage rarely leads to good design.
Ciao
In respect of the third, I wonder if there's any easy way to increase the temptation to hit driver and take the bunkers on. On Sunday morning, not having played the course for three years, I hit my driver without even thinking, and the ball finished high enough up the ridge to give me a view of the pin, and almost exactly 150 from the green. From there I had a comfortable punch eight iron to leave a 25 foot birdie putt (which I left short, setting the scene for the rest of the visit). But I'd never play the shot deliberately, it's too risky. If there was fairway cut to the left of the bunkers, and perhaps if the left dune could be softened a bit, it'd be a more realistic proposition. And I think it would improve the hole.
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Adam
I too have been just left of those spectacle bunkers by accident, but with tons of roll. I think you are right for the likes of us, to tempt guys to skip past those bunkers the left mound needs to be chopped and flattened a bit. I am not sure that is worth doing though. Maybe just remove the left spectacle (sounds too similar to testacle for me - gulp!) and create a 15 yard gap. There are what, three other sets of testacles, so maybe a set can be sacrificed.
Ciao
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Sean, what is your beef with the bunker short right on 3? I've been in their plenty of times when trying to avoid that left hill...seems ideally placed to me
Brian
1. The bunker is ugly and amateurish looking.
2. The bunker is designed for the par 5 back tee - flat belly stuff. There is absolutely no need for a bunker there for daily play. The hole is 450ish yards with a blind second to funky green. Too much attention here paid to how flat bellies play. Wouldn't it be simpler to call the hole a par 4 for the flat bellies and get rid of the bunker? Chasing extra yardage rarely leads to good design.
Ciao
Sean-
You really mystify me. I really am saddened that you have been seduced by the boiled-beef culture of England. After long and careful thought, I have had to take the step to write this which will perhaps be somewhat disturbing given our cordiality in the past. I have come to the conclusion that I cannot remain in good stead to read your opinions or when they deal (pun intended) with a course I know well and are so wrong.
Undoubtedly, the form of your golf views and thoughts contain the most profound truths as known to you but I am afraid they simply are egregious and tailored to your own hubristic reality tunnel which has no basis in fact. Tuco would say the common refrain, “ Opinions are like arse-holes and everyone has one”, so you invariably would say so can you.
We live in a time of poor management of the game of golf where it is dying out and lacks fun. This frightens those of us who subscribe to beauty and art in golf architecture rather than the slave of par, over-watered fairways and my course is harder than yours for the card and pencil hoi polloi.
No, it would be a silly kind of pride to debate that we can surrender the 3rd at Deal as a victim of such poor architecture. I’m sure Martin Ebert would shudder to think any of his bunkering is amateurish as let us not stand on ceremony alone—revetted pot bunkering is not exactly Dr. Mackenzie copying clouds in the sky. But let me let you cling to your authority and Arble-ian sense of architecture safety and humor you. Flat-bellies? Seriously, do you recall that Deal plays half of the year into a northerly? Have you played the course several or lets say 10 times in that wind to judge the architecture? I assure you having the 3rd as a par 5 from the medal tees is not a shout out to the flatbellies. Much of this has a familiar ring to me when you critique Deal.. I believe you’ve also said the 5th hole should play as a par 4. Given the 16th was originally a par 4 at times, we would then have a championship course with NO par 5s potentially or one—given you imply the 3rd should play as a 450ish par 4 to a funky green. I’m sure the reduction to par 69 or 68 would be rewarding to the members who know the course best and realize it has FLEXIBILITY in the design to play given the prevailing wind shift that happens per annum..
You critique the 13th as a poor driving hole and the 14th as too long for a man of your ilk. Again, have you played those holes downwind where half of the year the cross bunkers (13) are in play and the drive requires some artistry or when 14 plays as a 5 iron. Guess not..
The unhappy effects of reading your critiques of Deal are quite devastating to me, because as well traveled as you are, it invalidates the realm of your comments to my sensibilities and hence not worth reading. I’m not perfect either and given the choice between being a Deal puritan (pre-destined to like it) or a laisse-faire critic, I guess I’m Mayflower bound. Deal appreciation society may be a topic of my inherent weaknesses but declaring golf holes that are ancient as favoring the flatbellies when they don’t is a crime in my book as is understanding simple hazard schematics which are for certain elemental conditions.
The more clearly I see your views, the more I invalidate them. The more like the declaration of you are irrelevant to me for anything about golf architecture.
I expect this commentary will find a shrug of the shoulders and a fond so what.
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Tuco
Your thoughts on the matter couldn't have been that long nor careful. Anyone with more than a few passing weeks of time in the UK knows the over-riding prevailing wind in southern England is from the southwest. Sure, there are times when wind comes out of the northeast or the northwest - the northeast especially in the spring. Last winter/spring was a prime example when we had prolonged northeasterly wind. Be that as it may, southwesterly is the prevailing wind, the wind Deal will experience far more than from any other direction. That is a fact.
If you knew me, which you don't, you would know that I am not wed nor locked into any sort of opinion. My opinions change with experience. What doesn't change is that I don't take any of this golf malarky very seriously at all. Golf is game hopefully played over interesting, charming and challenging courses, of which I include Deal. Does this mean Deal is above criticism? Apparently so. Be that as it may, I believe Deal has a very routine bunkering scheme which could be greatly improved.
Sticking with the not knowing me theme, if you did, you would know I have played Deal something like 25 times over the course of 20+ years. And yes, I have played the course in a northeastern wind. Does this make me an expert? Far from it. Do I need to be an expert to offer an opinion? Absolutely not. It is your choice to listen or not. As you hinted, I am not overly bothered either way. Although, I hold no grudge nor ill-will toward yourself. That isn't my bag. Having fun on courses and shooting the shit is my bag and I hope to do that at Deal many more times in the future. Perhaps we could even meet up for game.
Ciao
Mystifying One.
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The two far bunkers on 3 are not designed to tempt people to drive past them. They were a formidable second shot hazard 70 years ago and still create issues if the drive isn't on the short stuff. Just like the 2nd, 5th and 10th the tighter line from the tee is rewarded by a view of the pin and or an easier shot. There is plenty of room down the left but the second shot is blind, flirt with the bunker (which has been softened) for the best line and view of the pin.
13 will be getting a new back tee as too many good players hit iron to stay short of the three cross bunkers.
Sean I'd be interested to hear how you'd change the bunkering and what Donald Steel and latterly Martin Ebert missed. Deal has 8 greens without greenside bunkers and its still a course that requires a strong short game.
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Chappers
The first and best thing Deal could do to improve their bunkering is to widen the fairways so the bunkers mean something other than punishing a so-so shot on #s 7, 9, 11, 13 & 15. If the course is deemed too easy for doing this then the bunkers are in the wrong spots. Second, fix up the stoney area to the rear of #8 green so a guy hitting a good shot (literally 1 yard past a bunker) with 20+mph downwind has a respectable lie when his ball predictably goes long. Third, shorten the 14th so in effect there is more space (less club in) in a 20+mph crosswind.
Ciao
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I would like to see #1 fairway widened to the right. The hole is reminiscent of the first at TOC... except for its width. If the hay on the right were cut back to the road it would provide a choice of angles to counter the wide variety of possible pin positions. In addition, opening the right side of the fairway would bring the OB into play for players choosing that route (voluntarily or involuntarily).
The 1st at Deal:
(http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--UJPiLNBiPw/UgYiw04WDvI/AAAAAAAAHew/XwUKnWxSQDI/s1024/IMAGE_135.jpeg)
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Mike,
Robin and I had a similar discussion last Monday. The hole could do with more width, and I like your idea of widening to the right.
Eases you into the round more and would speed up play. Thre green has enough to defend it even with a far wider fairway.
It was intetresting seeing RCP again after a near-three-year break. I am sure a lot of green surface has been reclaimed, especially on 3, 9 & 15, condition of 9-11 massively improved and keeping the back of #4 longer so balls stop before the hay makes sense.
Driving on #5 without the power station is much more challenging. No features to aim at and little definition on the ground make it hard to select a line and commit to it.
Drove back to London after 72 holes with a heavy heart. I hope it's not three years before I see my friends and my "home" course again.
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Whitty
Do ya think cutting rough down the right rough brings the danger of the road more into play? I spose golfers could try to be more aware of traffic, but if something were to happen...I spose a few bunkers could be slapped in over there...I am very surprised Doc would want to see the road brought more into play.
Why not widen the fairway left? The way the green is situated, it doesn't make much difference which angle one approaches from.
Scott - I too noticed the grass a bit longer behind #4 and it seemed as though the right side of the green was less punishing - not a bad place to miss.
Ciao
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Do ya think cutting rough down the right rough brings the danger of the road more into play?
And there you have it...
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I was thinking more a couple of gang widths down the left, not the right. Tough to see the drive finish around the corner if the last hop is into the thick stuff, which is very thick indeed on the lower ground. They'd find my Pro V if they did!
Wouldn't want to encourage play towards the road.
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Hmm... the ground is a bit squirrelly on the left as you get past the 18th green. Perhaps a wider left cut on the first half of the hole followed by a wider cut on the right after the turnaround in front of the house. It is just a shame that everyone is forced to either play the hole from basically the same position in the fairway or pitch out of the hay.
I would also like to see the jungle along the edges of the burn closely cropped so that depth perception on the second shot would be a little more unnerving.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-afgacwrx2IA/UgaMvH__3WI/AAAAAAAAHh8/ZViS7F_baDw/w400-h483-no/Deal-Hole1.jpg)
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The road gets very little traffic, so I don't see that being too great a problem.
Balls that will carry onto the road already will get there (or onto the clubhouse balcony in Chappers' brother's case!). Cutting to fairway height would see a few more trickle onto the road, but no more an issue that the 18th at TOC, with much less vehicle and pedestrian traffic at Deal than at St Andrews.
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About a thousand vehicles a day, no exactly quiet!
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Seriously?!
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Yep we used a vehicle counter on the road. Add the horses and the fact it's also national cycle route 1 and its no sleepy track.
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Sean - your picture from the "plateau short of 15" is actually from the top of the bunkers on 17.
I still do not get 8 being unfair, on the rare times its straight down wind (westerly) there are 39 yards from the front edge to the back edge and the last few yards slope gently in the players favour. If a reasonable player cannot stop an 8, 9 or wedge in 30 yards he has more problems than 8 at RCP. Deal tests the aerial game three times in a round on 1, 4 and 8, these holes face in three different directions so only one shot is ever likely to be downwind. The 1st is 44 yards deep and the 4th around 35 yards with a simple bailout offered.
I'm interested in your assessment of 14, needing more room to the right. This displays a lack of understanding of the challenge on many holes at Deal. The play on 14 is to favour the left side of the green, if you miss you have a shot into the breeze and a green slanted in your favour. Miss right and your downwind over traps to a green running away. Giving more room down the right doesnt assist the player. The quality of RCP is in the demands on the second shot, get wrong sided and you can ring up a score (far to) easily.
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Chappers
I didn't say #8 was unfair and I don't think it is. I think given 20mph downwind or wind quartering from the right the hole doesn't offer enough space. You say the green is 39 yards long and that isn't the part which bothers me - though it would be nice on such a tough shot to be able to see the landing zone/bunkers. My beef is when the shot is hit long one can easily end up in a rocky lie. That isn't on so far as I am concerned. I end up aiming left side to an already narrow green to have a better shot at a clean lie when the ball goes long. Why doesn't the club clean the rear of the green up? It doesn't make any sense to me for a guy to play from rocks when he hasn't hit a bad shot and is only 10-15 yards off a green with a bank to the rear shedding the ball away.
My beef with #14 is we are in the middle of what can be an awful slog if the wind is up. Then, instead of offering something a bit different, the course asks for another long approach. Shortening the hole effectively widens it because in theory folks are more accurate with less club. Coming in from the right half gently moves left because of wind and the slope of the green. Plus, to the rear is a nice bank which will contain a slightly aggressive shot and thus leave putter in the hand for the second. Its not a flag hunting tactic, but I think its a sound tactic for me. A shot missed left can bring in all sorts of horrible rough into play. I would rather play from sand than that. The bunkers have excellent sand so are not overly difficult to recover from. I don't have an issue with bunkers on the wind direction side of the hole at all. Its a nice break from the usual of bunkers on the far side of the wind direction. Bottom line, I think its a better hole for the daily course from 170 rather than 200 yards.
Brian
In theory I agree with you. You in practice, its a no go. I can't imagine Deal opening up the right especially as they are fully aware of the amount of traffic on the road. A bouncing ball can do some damage - I know. That rough down the right really does it job of stopping balls.
I too really liked Seacroft's 7th - great use of the road, but I think its a bit easier to keep track of cars there than at Deal. Remember, its not just the road, its the parking lot as well. How does one watch the road and the lot and is the lot ever clear of people on it, entering or leaving it? In truth, I am surprised the club doesn't sell insurance with the green fee.
Ciao
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Lads,
If I may be so bold to give my opinion of widening the first despite having never visited the course...
I don't know of an architect who would willingly take that hole nearer to the road on the right whether it has 10 cars or 1,000 cars travelling through it every day. Whilst Brian's reason that shots heading that way would hit the road anyway - regardless of it being rough or fairway - may seem to make sense, it is actually more to do with changing the centreline of the tee shot to the right if the fairway is moved, hence aligning golfers more to the right...
Robin said he was talking about a couple of gang mower widths to the left... From the aerial, the 18th green looks quite close to the left as well... Having been on the ground, he'd know better than I if this could cause a problem... Maybe one width left and one right might be OK?
Still, I can see why the hole plays narrow because of the reasons above... Sometimes strategy / playability and golf unfortunately have to take a back seat to common sense with safety....
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Sean - 14 has a very smart tee and you used it so the option is there.
Ally - I'd move the first fairway left, it's no where near the 18th green. The hole is plenty wide enough, it's sub 400 yards and a 3 wood leaves a short iron. As I wrote earlier 10 of 12 extra hole matches in the Amateur were decided at the 19th.
It needs to be remembered Deal is a match play club, 4 of our 6 major member weekends are match play, the Halford Hewitt is match play as is the Grand Match. Those who want a card and pencil to go with a five hour 4 ball need not apply!
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Just out of curiosity and cussedness I'm wondering if there's a single club in USA with the sort of match-play culture that Mark describes at Deal. It's not universal in the UK I know but it seems pretty common among the small subset of clubs I'm familiar with.
Can anyone point out an example of a USA club where a card-and-pencil fourball going out on a regular basis for a play it down, putt it out, just like they do it on TV slog would be seen as not in keeping with the spirit of the club?
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For those who've not visited Deal for a couple of years the course has come along leaps and bounds under James Bledge. The fairways have generally not been widened but the playing corridors have. Much of the improvement is agronomical along with improved green keeping skills.
The 1st has had the thick rough cut back 20-25yards on the left, making the left side of the fairway the safer line.
The sea wall has yet to be removed at the back of the 8th.
13 has a new back tee just outside the hut making it 480'ish.
16 is now the world's worst par 4. Long with a "short par 5" green.
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"16 is now the world's worst par 4. Long with a "short par 5" green."
Not being facetious but that sounds like it might be quite good. A wee bit of unfairness just to challenge the orthodox way of thinking.
Niall
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I normally don't give a damn about par changes, but I do think moving the tee forward slightly to make Deal 16 a par four has ruined one of the greatest holes in England. A mate of mine made a 3 on the hole during the architects' study tour last month and I was shocked. Hitting that green in two should require a career shot. Terrible decision by the club.
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Adam
As a matter of interest, do you know if they were advised on that change ?
Niall
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I believe they were advised quite strongly against it!
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Adam the R&A played the 16th hole just under 500yds in the amateur and FQ as a 4. Personally I think the tee of the day should have gone back to 510 par 5 and leave the championship tee forward as a 4. For members it now just another 440 par 4 on the back nine, it's not played less than an average of 5 for members all summer and is the hardest hole on the course.
Not sure who "advised against it" other than me! As the R&A encouraged it's use as a par 4.
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Adam the R&A played the 16th hole just under 500yds in the amateur and FQ as a 4. Personally I think the tee of the day should have gone back to 510 par 5 and leave the championship tee forward as a 4. For members it now just another 440 par 4 on the back nine, it's not played less than an average of 5 for members all summer and is the hardest hole on the course.
Not sure who "advised against it" other than me! As the R&A encouraged it's use as a par 4.
Is there still a tee you can use near the 15th green to play the 16th?
If not, I'd be half tempted to just tee the ball up to the left of the 15th green and play from there.
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Adam the R&A played the 16th hole just under 500yds in the amateur and FQ as a 4. Personally I think the tee of the day should have gone back to 510 par 5 and leave the championship tee forward as a 4. For members it now just another 440 par 4 on the back nine, it's not played less than an average of 5 for members all summer and is the hardest hole on the course.
Not sure who "advised against it" other than me! As the R&A encouraged it's use as a par 4.
Is there still a tee you can use near the 15th green to play the 16th?
If not, I'd be half tempted to just tee the ball up to the left of the 15th green and play from there.
Seems to me it's a much better 540 yard par 5 than a 440 yard par 4. Just like I think #3 is a much better 420 yard par 4 than 500 yard par 5. It evens out.
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Adam the R&A played the 16th hole just under 500yds in the amateur and FQ as a 4. Personally I think the tee of the day should have gone back to 510 par 5 and leave the championship tee forward as a 4. For members it now just another 440 par 4 on the back nine, it's not played less than an average of 5 for members all summer and is the hardest hole on the course.
Not sure who "advised against it" other than me! As the R&A encouraged it's use as a par 4.
Is there still a tee you can use near the 15th green to play the 16th?
If not, I'd be half tempted to just tee the ball up to the left of the 15th green and play from there.
Hi Scott. The old tees remain.
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Well in that case I just calmed down a lot about the change!
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A couple of months ago after playing Royal Worlington and Newmarket, I came across the following on the wall of their clubhouse. I presume that Deal has a copy, but I thought it interesting enough to post (poor quality though the picture is). Seems Deal had some pretty high profile admirers back in the early 20th century. A closeup of the course layout follows. Some scrolling is required.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/731/22496569707_33f52c1978_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/708/22926212381_c25f23200a_h.jpg)
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We have the original.
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All
See the extensively revised tour of Princes. The club has been making changes...when does it ever stop? A few greens altered, different style of bunkering and no Richborough!
See Reply 10 on first page.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.msg982124.html#msg982124 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.msg982124.html#msg982124)
Previous stops on The Tour:
Luffenham Heath
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63819.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63819.0.html)
Celtic Manor 2010
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63796.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63796.0.html)
Kington
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html)
Welshpool
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63739.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63739.0.html)
Northamptonshire Co
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41336.msg1520020.html#msg1520020 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41336.msg1520020.html#msg1520020)
Enville Highgate
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44866.msg979077.html#msg979077 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44866.msg979077.html#msg979077)
Cleeve Cloud
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.msg1128469.html#msg1128469 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.msg1128469.html#msg1128469)
Seaton Carew Bishop Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64112.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64112.0.html)
Goswick
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64104.msg1527538.html#msg1527538 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64104.msg1527538.html#msg1527538)
Huntercombe
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html)
Reigate Heath
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64197.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64197.0.html)
Deal
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.0.html)
Future Scheduled Stops
Alwoodley
Dunbar
Ciao
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Have Princes started going with the frilly bunkers fad?
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Chappers
I wouldn't say the bunkers are frilly, just a bit more shaped than merely pots...and bigger. It seems to me that this is the style being used when bunkers back into dunes or rough and pots are more for short grass areas...though there are some exceptions. I don't know the long term plan.
Ciao
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Nice update.
Despite the sand they had just spread, I thought it was in the best nick I've seen it going back at least a dozen years. Hope they keep it up.
I do think rough/cross wind combinaiton is the most brutal of the three there. But it remains a popluar destination for London golfers throughout the winter, which is probaly the best time to see it.
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Mark -
What is the date of the plan of the golf course? I can't make it out.
Bob
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Bob neither can I, the earliest date is 1907 but that assumes the players weren't writing their thoughts from an earlier year. I'll have a look at the original next time I'm at the club.
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Spangles
I think Princes is having a think about a partial restoration. I have no idea what this might entail, but some news is meant to come out soon....maybe Adam will reveal all.
Ciao
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The 2017-18 Winter Tour (and I mean its still winter :o ) rolled into Princes and I must say I am more impressed than ever. The big bunker chunking revamp continues, but the odd wood bunker remains in place. Much like Castle Stuart, the fairway bunkers are at odds with the wing bunkers and tend to be pots which are very well placed. The winter deal is absolutely outstanding, especially for the perennially gouging south of England...£130 for two games, dinner, bed & breakfast. What are you waiting for?
Link to first page tour.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.0.html)
Previous Stops
Liphook
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52532.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52532.0.html)
Warkworth
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65712.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65712.0.html)
North Berwick
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59363.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59363.0.html)
Alnmouth Village
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65709.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65709.0.html)
Little Aston
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html)
WHO
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61415.msg1460548.html#msg1460548 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61415.msg1460548.html#msg1460548)
RAC
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65366.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65366.0.html)
St Georges Hill
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36130.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36130.0.html)
Huntercombe
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.msg633321.html#msg633321 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.msg633321.html#msg633321)
Worcester
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.msg1348691.html#msg1348691 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.msg1348691.html#msg1348691)
Planned stops: Princes Himalayas
Ciao
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Spangles
I think Princes is having a think about a partial restoration. I have no idea what this might entail, but some news is meant to come out soon....maybe Adam will reveal all.
Ciao
Sorry, I missed this. I'm going to a media event at Prince's in a few weeks, but that is for the unveiling of the rebuilt Himalayas. I haven't heard anything about restoration. A few years ago there was a little bit of chatter about a remote possibility of them trying to put back the pre-war 18, but that has long been forgotten about I think -- they wouldn't have spent the money on the Himalayas if they were even considering it.
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Adam
I played Princes last week with my local golf society for 2 rounds
First round was on Shore and Dunes
Second round was on Dunes and Himalayas
The general consensus by the players of my local society was that the Himalayas should have been shut as it was like a construction site with lots of GUR. For me it was an insight of what works have been carried out
Having played Princes a number of times in the past - they have started to convert a number of reverted bunkers of which was done by EGD a few years ago and converting them into a shaggy unkempt version which was proposed by Mackenzie and Ebert
However on the Himalayas there are major changes to the layout and a number of holes
Hole 1 - the fairway has been widened to the left and it has the most stupid small central bunker which is not visible from the tee which detracts what I think is a challenging opener
Hole 2 - existing holes 2 and 3 are being merged together into a monster par five - shame they are getting rid of the existing second green which is a nicely shaped green
Hole 3 - existing hole 4 the bunkers have been redone the tees have been extended further back the ditch on the right has been opened up a bit into what is intended to be a marshy water hazard
Hole 4 - existing hole 5 fairway bunkers have been given the shaggy look otherwise unchanged
Hole 5 - new par three which goes 90 degs away from the direction of the other holes looks a challenging short par 3 with a raised green which was difficult to see the shapes due to the amount of top dressing on it
Hole 6 - tees have been moved further left on top of Dunes ridge and the hole is straightened - with the marshy hazard which was put in a few years ago cleared
Hole 7 - apparently the long Himalayas bunker has been restored correct me if I’m wrong but it’s miles out of play to a super unbunkered par 3
Hole 8 - biggest change of the existing holes the tees have been moved forward on top of a dune near hole 7 green and shortened into a short par 4 with new marshy areas either side of the fairway replacing the trough like ditches
Hole 9 - new tees pushed further back
A lot of vegetation has been removed and the course is now more open with large sandy wastes and the length has been increased by 300 or so yards making it a tough nine to play
Personally I am not sure of these changes whether they were necessary on the other side it has probably made the Himalayas nine from the easiest to the hardest of the three different nines and it would be interesting to see how it evolves over the next few years
Cheers
Ben
Spangles
I think Princes is having a think about a partial restoration. I have no idea what this might entail, but some news is meant to come out soon....maybe Adam will reveal all.
Ciao
Sorry, I missed this. I'm going to a media event at Prince's in a few weeks, but that is for the unveiling of the rebuilt Himalayas. I haven't heard anything about restoration. A few years ago there was a little bit of chatter about a remote possibility of them trying to put back the pre-war 18, but that has long been forgotten about I think -- they wouldn't have spent the money on the Himalayas if they were even considering it.
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Thanks Ben. You are right, the Himalayas should have been closed as it was a mess. I fear this will leave a bad impression for many who will think twice about playing it in the future.
I don't know how many of these ponds/marshes will remain in play (I assume some will be drained), but I have never seen so many bodies of water on a links. I can only assume sand was taken from these areas to create dunes etc. My impression of the design isn't positive except for the outstanding 7th hole...a superb short hole played to a green on a ridge with fallaways front and back. Losing the 3rd is a bit of a shame. Playing over wasteland and a bunker works well for that par 3. I like the double green 4/8, but the holes are nothing special...in truth I don't like the 8th at all. All in all, for me the Hims still falls short of Shore and way behind the excellent Dunes. The good news is the club allows 9 hole play (half price of full fee) so that can't be bad. The bottom line is I don't think the Hims is a replacement 9 for Shore. If you are rolling through for a game, the Shore/Dunes combo is still tops. Even for a 27 hole day I would rather play Dunes twice than add Hims.
In general, the entire property and house needs a bit of tidy up. The club is not presenting itself on the front foot right now and that should be addressed pronto.
I only took one photo because the place is a mess. Below is Sarazen's Bunker on the 9th, built on the spot of a bunker Sarazen played from with his famous sand wedge on the way to winning the 1932 Open. That club led to a 75 year endorsement deal with Wilson!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/808/40329497325_07a948da5a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/808/40329497325_07a948da5a_b.jpg)
God willing, that concludes the Winter Tour.
Ciao
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I’m pleased to say the 16th at Deal is returning to being a very good par 5 later this year, thank goodness.
The 2nd has a new left side fairway trap at the end of the flat area. The existing left fairway bunker has been widened and moved closer to the fairway.
The 3rd is having the tees moved back and left of the 2nd green in the 2018 winter programme.
The old bunkers on the 5th have been scraped out and are non-bunker waste areas.
The 11th has a new fairway trap in the right rough around 50 yards past the big left trap.
On 17 there is now a large waste area left of the fairway. Replacing a scrubby bank full of whins and rabbit burrows.
Exciting times at Deal. Although obviously things will go downhill when the (very) part time volunteer greenkeeper moves to the St Andrews Links Trust for the summer!!
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Sean,
I agree with you regarding the entire property and especially the clubhouse needs an facelift/upgrade to come up to a similar level to the Lodge which is a very good large dormy house with bar, small restaurant and snooker room perfect for a golf trip.
As for the Himalayas I would prefer it to be a standalone 9 or have nine additional holes assuming that the owner has more land at his disposal with the Shore and Dunes being a permanent 18 hole course.
Shortening the 8th hole and making it look very Florida is mind boggling for somewhere like Princes.
Cheers
Ben
Thanks Ben. You are right, the Himalayas should have been closed as it was a mess. I fear this will leave a bad impression for many who will think twice about playing it in the future.
The turf is generally heavier on the Hims 9 and that likely explains the water everywhere. I don't know how many of these ponds/marshes will remain in play (I assume some will be drained), but I have never seen so many bodies of water on a links. My impression of the design isn't positive except for the outstanding 7th hole...a superb short hole played to a green on a ridge with fallaways front and back. Losing the 3rd is a bit of a shame. Playing over wasteland and a bunker works well for that par 3. I like the double green 4/8, but the holes are nothing special...in truth I don't like the 8th at all. All in all, for me the Hims still falls short of Shore and way behind the excellent Dunes. The good news is the club allows 9 hole play (half price of full fee) so that can't be bad. The bottom line is I don't think the Hims is a replacement 9 for Shore. If you are rolling through for a game, the Shore/Dunes combo is still tops. Even for a 27 hole day I would rather play Dunes twice than add Hims.
In general, the entire property and house needs a bit of tidy up. The club is not presenting itself on the front foot right now and that should be addressed pronto.
I only took one photo because the place is a mess. Below is Sarazen's Bunker on the 9th, built on the spot of a bunker Sarazen played from with his famous sand wedge on the way to winning the 1932 Open. That club led to a 75 year endorsement deal with Wilson!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/808/40329497325_07a948da5a_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/808/40329497325_07a948da5a_b.jpg)
God willing, that concludes the Winter Tour.
Ciao
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I’m pleased to say the 16th at Deal is returning to being a very good par 5 later this year, thank goodness.
The 2nd has a new left side fairway trap at the end of the flat area. The existing left fairway bunker has been widened and moved closer to the fairway.
The 3rd is having the tees moved back and left of the 2nd green in the 2018 winter programme.
The old bunkers on the 5th have been scraped out and are non-bunker waste areas.
The 11th has a new fairway trap in the right rough around 50 yards past the big left trap.
On 17 there is now a large waste area left of the fairway. Replacing a scrubby bank full of whins and rabbit burrows.
Exciting times at Deal. Although obviously things will go downhill when the (very) part time volunteer greenkeeper moves to the St Andrews Links Trust for the summer!!
Chappers
What was the impetus for all this work?
Ciao
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Sean the club’s desire for continued improvement, safety and speed of play for the 3rd and design input from Martin Ebert.
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Much of this existed in a Mackenzie & Ebert RCP club master plan dating to before I joined the club in 2009, so it’s not an “on a whim” situation.
Admittedly I am judging by pictures from afar, but James Bledge seems like he is making the place absolutely sing.
There’s a decent chance I might get back in 2019 or 2020 and it seems there will be a fair bit of new stuff to acquaint myself with if I do!
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Scott you are quite right the ideas have been around for years. We’ve had a big focus on getting the right team and the basics on a different level before moving on to other issues.
Nicky and I cut the turf nursery today, three different areas with different grasses. Now it has pop up watering it’s doing really well and supplying quality turf grown on site rather than imported at a cost.
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Sean the club’s desire for continued improvement, safety and speed of play for the 3rd and design input from Martin Ebert.
Chappers
So the 3rd will be a bit of a dogleg left to the same fairway? Were people bombing walkers out right?
So the new bunker on 11 is for the big boys?
When you say waste area, what exactly does that mean?
Ciao
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Sean - yes the dog walkers were in danger, not only are there new tees but a new dune down the right to screen the footpath. The new bunker down the right of 11 was in range for average players last weekend. “Waste area” scraped out bare sand, not groomed, not a bunker.
I’ve spent some time at Princes over the last couple of weeks. Huge changes there in the last 18 months, the Himalayas changes are well reported here, the turf on the new holes needs time but the 9 is popular with members and visitors alike.
Many improvements on the Dunes and Shore, the common comment on Princes was many good holes but the visuals made them blend into each other and difficult to recall. The work has changed many bunkers and there are numerous waste areas, the aspects are much improved and I’m sure the Shore/Dunes will climb the rankings. The fairway turf is tight and in excellent condition despite the drought of 2018 and this year’s very dry spring.
With huge improvements at RCP and Princes plus the 2020 Open at Royal St Georges these are exciting times in East Kent.
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Scott you are quite right the ideas have been around for years. We’ve had a big focus on getting the right team and the basics on a different level before moving on to other issues.
Nicky and I cut the turf nursery today, three different areas with different grasses. Now it has pop up watering it’s doing really well and supplying quality turf grown on site rather than imported at a cost.
Chappers- Are there any pix of the changes???? I've seen a few on Bledge's blog but nothing of late and I understand yesterday was the ceremonial opening of the new 3rd tee etc.
Do you think the waste areas and the lacy jagged new bunkering looks in place with the existing pot bunkers? I wish they could restore the sandy parlour type waste area on 4 especially if you play the winter tees it would look awesome but that is pure aesthetic..
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Noel played this morning the 3rd looks like it’s been there for 25 years already, the wind switched so 3 and 16 both played into the wind.
I’ve never been a big fan of shaggy bunkers, they clearly save lots of money over the years. I’d like to see some of them have a shallow revetted wall so they are more in keeping with the existing pot bunkers.
Unfortunately I don’t know how to post pictures, as you say there’s some on the blog and a few on twitter. You due over this summer?
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Chappers
Thanks for the update. I shall be there in a few weeks. Is there waste area behind the 8th?
Ciao
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Chappers
Thanks for the update. I shall be there in a few weeks. Is there waste area behind the 8th?
Ciao
Sean No.
So I've walked and played the revised 16th 3x. I normally introduce this hole to visitors as my favourite hole... anywhere.
I'm going through a moment where I struggle to accept the possibility that it's been improved! More plays needed.
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Chappers
Thanks for the update. I shall be there in a few weeks. Is there waste area behind the 8th?
Ciao
Sean No.
So I've walked and played the revised 16th 3x. I normally introduce this hole to visitors as my favourite hole... anywhere.
I'm going through a moment where I struggle to accept the possibility that it's been improved! More plays needed.
Tony- Lest us not forget that Sir Peter Allen called #16 the greatest hole in Links golf!
Chappers, sadly this may be the first time in 20 years I may not make it to Deal in a year. We'll see, still hopeful.
Any pictures of the renovations would be appreciated, I saw the alternate fairway on 16 being put in late last summer but not some of the lacy bunkers etc which I'm worried about in concert with the pot bunkers. I don't want sandy wastes as was the course in the old pictures in Horace Hutchinson's book etc but like the revetted bunkers in keeping with current character.
Again, someone please post pix, I can't wait to see it. Bledge has been great for this course.
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Jon Cavalier and I just spent a very busy week in London and then down on the Coast.
Walton Heath Old
Woking
St George's Hill
Swinley Forest
Sunningdale Old and New (photographing not playing)
Rye
Littlestone
Deal
Princes
Royal St George's
Jon photographed all of the courses and droned several of them including Deal. He'll post the Deal 16th shots shortly.
My impressions:
Woking has really done some marvelous work. The area behind 2tee/5 green/6tee is now a wonderful view. Jon had the same question that I'm sure several have asked before -has Woking ever thought of starting 1-4 on current 15-18 so the 14th could finish next too the clubhouse?
The 17th at Swinley wasn't enough of a change that it would effect the overall experience. First off in a 2 ball on a quiet weekday was pretty magical.
Nothing that I saw at St George's Hill has changed my opinion that it's the best golf course in the world. That was not a mistype.
Several curious newly restored bunkers on Sunningdale Old. We were told by the head pro the greenside bunker on 7 and a left fairway bunker on 18 would both be redone again in house after a not so successful attempt this past winter.
I loved the sliding presentation boards in the Rye clubhouse which made it easy to compare various evolutions of the course.
Princes new Himalaya 9 is in really really good shape. Best of any holes we played on the journey. The first and 7th were favorites.
Deal isn't kidding around - this is a major test of golf in every respect. I was shocked at just how back some of the back tees now are. I thought 3 and 16 were both good changes - but full disclosure it had been 10+ years since I last visited.
I didn't love all of the changes at R St George - they seem to be caught in the middle of changing over the bunkers. There were riveted round circles, blow out bunkers, and waste areas -sometimes all on the same hole. Some of the greens were a long way from being ready for an Open in 13 months as well. Lots to do at RSG. That front nine does have a special feel though.
Thanks to Mark Chaplin and several others for your help in trip planning. 11 rounds in 6 days was a fun, if tiring, romp through London and the South. Particularly when you are taking 1,000 pictures a day as Jon does. But I'm please to report that all 2 balls came in at under 3:00 when adjusted for traffic ahead.
And one final piece of news -after 30 plus visits to the UK - I'm proud to say I am now semi competent driving on the left.
Michael
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As requested, here’s the 16th at Deal:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997298838_7bc4deb91d_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997342911_f6ff9be491_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997342841_0fc35e1a42_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997342741_bf7830e373_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997299133_20d2e2f57d_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997342896_2d27a9e3e9_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997342066_221897db93_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997342321_2af362f0a6_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997304772_f0aea301f8_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997304997_8974f54cd6_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47997297693_baa748d60c_c.jpg)
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Michael/Jon — it was a pleasure to meet you. Haste ye back
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Thank you, Adam. Was great meeting and eating with you as well. And now that I’ve been to your neck of the woods, I will indeed make my way back with all due haste.
Best,
Jon Cavalier
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I stopped in for a game at Deal a few weeks ago and saw the changes, most notably to 3, 8, 10 & 16. There were other bunkers installed, but I will focus on the above. In aggregate, I have to say these changes have softened the course, which is a bit surprising to me in this day of championship challenge.
#3 has been moved well left and it has made the drive easier to skirt past the bunkers.
#8 (a personal bugbear hole) has much better turf to the rear of the green making for a reasonable miss should the tail wind be strong.
#10, a two large bunkers more or less in line with the green are now in place. Many can easily carry the first bunker, few can carry the second. The second bunker replaces a pot and what was pretty nasty rough in the area which was hit and miss. The bunker is large enough whereby it is a reasonable expectation to have a play from it. Previously the pot bunker, while much smaller and supported by rough, was not a great position for recovery.
#16, a left side of the fairway on high ground has been added. If one can't reach the green in two or doesn't fancy a recovery shot to the right fairway from the left rough, it is a very reasonable play to stay left and open up the entire green, especially forward hole locations..
I must say, all four changes do soften Deal, but 8 & 16 are good changes. #3 was a safety issue so there really isn't a need for a debate. I am not convinced the change for 10 was good. I rather liked the undefined fairway which is now more defined. 16 is obviously the major change, but to me, allowing another option is a great idea because it allows shorter hitters to have more of chance against those who can sometimes over-power the length of the hole.
In my book, the changes have an overall positive effect. Whether or not the work was worth the money is another matter.
See page 1 for an updated tour.
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.msg981695.html#msg981695 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.msg981695.html#msg981695)
Any thoughts?
Ciao
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Sean
In truth I'd be hard pressed to say what was new on 8 and 10 but I liked both holes and have nothing negative to say on either. The change on 3 maybe makes the drive a bit so-so but perhaps a bit of judicious bunkering might put a bit more shape into it ? As for the 16th, being a traditionalist, I played down the right (OK, I do tend to fade the ball as well). As Tony says it may well turn out to be a better hole in theory because of the added option on the left but to my eye it looks very modern in character and not quite in keeping with the other holes.
However what makes Deal so special for me is the greens. I'd pay good money just to be taken in a buggy and dropped off between 50-100 yards from the greens in pretty well any direction and play in from there. Simply great fun. Having now had the pleasure of playing the course 3 times I'm enjoying and finding it more and more interesting with each subsequent play. Surely the sign of a great course ?
Niall
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I stopped in for a game at Deal a few weeks ago and saw the changes, most notably to 3, 8, 10 & 16. There were other bunkers installedm but I will focus on the above. In aggregate, I have to say these changes have softened the course, which is a bit surprising to me in this day of championship challenge.
#3 has been moved well left and it has made the drive easier to skirt past the bunkers.
#8 (a personal bugbear hole) has much better turf to the rear of the green making for a reasonable miss should the tail wind be strong.
#10, a two large bunkers more or less in line with the green are now in place. Many can easily carry the first bunker, fee can carry the second. The second bunker replaces a pot and what was pretty nasty rough in the area which was hit and miss. The bunker is large enough whereby it is a reasonable expectation to have a play from it. Previously the pot bunker, while much smaller and supported by rough, was not a great position for recovery.
#16, a left side of the fairway on high ground has been added. If one can't reach the green in two or doesn't fancy a recovery shot to the right fairway from the left rough, it is a very reasonable play to stay left and open up the entire green, especially forward hole locations..
I must say, all four changes do soften Deal, but 8 & 16 are good changes. #3 was a safety issue so there really isn't a need for a debate. I am not convinced the change for 10 was good. I rather liked the undefined fairway which is now more defined. 16 is obviously the major change, but to me, alowing another option is a great idea because it allows shorter hitters to have more of chance against those who can sometimes over-power the length of the hole.
In my book, the course has risen in my estimation!
See page 1 for an updated tour.
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.msg981695.html#msg981695 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44965.msg981695.html#msg981695)
Any thoughts?
Ciao
Sean- what about the new bunker shapes, I've been more worried about them. How do they look on the ground? I've never seen an old pic of Deal with frilly bunkers--waste areas that were jagged yes like the old Sandy Parlour but not jagged bunkers.. So what are your thoughts there?
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Noel
To be honest, I am not sure the frilly bunkers work visually. That said, they are new and need time to set in. The one hole the bunkers really stand out is the 10th. They don't blend well with the obscured right bunkers. I am not sure why anything was done with this hole. It was brilliant as it was.
Ciao
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Noel
To be honest, I am not sure the frilly bunkers work visually. That said, they are new and need time to set in. The one hole the bunkers really stand out is the 10th. They don't blend well with the obscured right bunkers. I am not sure why anything was done with this hole. It was brilliant as it was.
Ciao
Exactly how I feared.. I have not been in love with the pictures posted here. Ugh.. I would never have touched 10 either. Sir Guy Campbell singled it out for rare praise indeed whilst saying it had the quality of the blow of an Angel's wing. The oblique shape of the hole with the rough left and deep stuff even further left where you can't find your ball were enough teeth for the hole especially with the prevailing summer wind. The northerly is such an odd wind to play that hole in and makes it even more of a devil. I've thought the southwesterly can actually help a long hitter get the ball close the green with a push draw.
Regardless, I'm a little sad b/c I like the optionality on 16 and 3 I have no issue with. Ive hit some good shots with the wind over my left shoulder that leaked right and found on stones near the walking path on top of the sea wall. Then again I've also hit some balls over Lang's Neck (the ridge) from that tea and I don't think that is really possible now.
This will be the first year in 20 years I will not visit Deal so very sad.
I blame Russell Talley who is like Godot these days. Where art thou Jazz Fuzioner? Without Russell my love for Deal might never been born. We spent much time studying 6 and 10 which are a master class in fun, interesting short par 4s.. It doesn't hurt that Russell was tending the flag when I flipped a 60 degree in for my first Eagle ever on 10 in 2000.. ;D
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Scott I forgot to say the master plan RCP has worked off was started by Donald Steel.
Sean nothing has changed on 8, better maintenance is producing better turf. I probably haven’t been directly over the back of 8 in two or three years as the ball tends to go long left on the breeze if over hit. I’d estimate less than 100-1 balls goes straight long. As I’ve said before if you cannot stop a 9 iron in 40 yards stop playing rocks!
The first bunker you refer to on the 10th used to have a 4’-5’ revetted wall it’s around 160yds off the men’s tee and 130yds off the ladies so gets lots of attention from lesser players and often made the hole pretty much unplayable if they got in it. They made it frilly around 5 years ago and more playable for the weaker player. The left bunker used to be two deep pots set in the dune, the left one was filled in long before I joined, the new bunker joins these together and is also shaggy so you can reach the green from it. The rough past the bunker in line with the green has been turned into fairway, longer hitters are now more tempted to take on the green in the right conditions. The 3rd and 16th are both 30-40 yards longer off the yellow tees, making them proper par 5s.
Noel the area between the tee and green on the 4th will never be scrapped out. It spends most of the winter under water and is home to some rare orchids.
Work continues at pace at Princes, despite having a small greenkeeping team compared to Deal and especially RSG they have another big winter programme of improvements, the new par 3 5th on the Shore is looking very nice and will open in the new year replacing 8th Shore. That tee was in a pinch point close to the green of 7th Shore on one side and 1st Dunes on the other. 6th Dunes has a new raised back tee, shaped and ready for turfing. The shaper is currently building a dune between 7 Shore and 7 Dunes, this should define both holes better. I believe 8 Himalayas maybe losing the water on the left of the fairway, if so this is a good move.
RSG has plenty of bunker revetting work in progress, they are now on mats for the fairways and semi rough as they concentrate on turf quality for next years Open.
All three courses seem to be attracting more wildlife, hopefully better land management and less chemicals, whilst making the course managers jobs harder, are having a benefit to wildlife.
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Scott I forgot to say the master plan RCP has worked off was started by Donald Steel.
Sean nothing has changed on 8, better maintenance is producing better turf. I probably haven’t been directly over the back of 8 in two or three years as the ball tends to go long left on the breeze if over hit. I’d estimate less than 100-1 balls goes straight long. As I’ve said before if you cannot stop a 9 iron in 40 yards stop playing rocks!
The first bunker you refer to on the 10th used to have a 4’-5’ revetted wall it’s around 160yds off the men’s tee and 130yds off the ladies so gets lots of attention from lesser players and often made the hole pretty much unplayable if they got in it. They made it frilly around 5 years ago and more playable for the weaker player. The left bunker used to be two deep pots set in the dune, the left one was filled in long before I joined, the new bunker joins these together and is also shaggy so you can reach the green from it. The rough past the bunker in line with the green has been turned into fairway, longer hitters are now more tempted to take on the green in the right conditions. The 3rd and 16th are both 30-40 yards longer off the yellow tees, making them proper par 5s.
Noel the area between the tee and green on the 4th will never be scrapped out. It spends most of the winter under water and is home to some rare orchids.
Work continues at pace at Princes, despite having a small greenkeeping team compared to Deal and especially RSG they have another big winter programme of improvements, the new par 3 5th on the Shore is looking very nice and will open in the new year replacing 8th Shore. That tee was in a pinch point close to the green of 7th Shore on one side and 1st Dunes on the other. 6th Dunes has a new raised back tee, shaped and ready for turfing. The shaper is currently building a dune between 7 Shore and 7 Dunes, this should define both holes better. I believe 8 Himalayas maybe losing the water on the left of the fairway, if so this is a good move.
RSG has plenty of bunker revetting work in progress, they are now on mats for the fairways and semi rough as they concentrate on turf quality for next years Open.
All three courses seem to be attracting more wildlife, hopefully better land management and less chemicals, whilst making the course managers jobs harder, are having a benefit to wildlife.
Chappers
No brainer to fill in the water on the left of the 8th on Himalayas at Princes - it was an overkill in the first place. Plus the other works they seem to be doing sounds an improvement to the course.
Cheers
Ben
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Chappers
Do you know if there are plans to add water to Shore /Dunes as was done to Hims?
Happy Hockey
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Adam’s mag just reported on winter works to build a large containment dune on one of the Princes nines.... they have to get the fill from somewhere so these water features tend to result in tandem.
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Not to take the focus off of the other holes discussed, but the 6th at Deal is one of my favorites. I have hit onto the rocks (and left my partner frustrated) with my approach, as well as stuck a 9 iron close. In the two days I was there earlier this year that Chappers knows of, the conditions didn't allow, however do people go for that green and hold it from the tee? I imagine the wind has to be favorable to allow it.
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Sean I’m not aware of any water hazards being built at Princes, there is a pond well to the rear of the 6th Shore tee, as was said earlier if you take sand the hole is likely to fill with water.
Jeff the 6th is hit regularly, I’ve only seen it hit once in person by James Bledge the Course Manager. The green wouldn’t hold a long shot so the ball needs to pitch into the bank and pop up onto the green. As hundreds of weak approaches over the year testify the ball rarely pops up nicely!
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Sean I’m not aware of any water hazards being built at Princes, there is a pond well to the rear of the 6th Shore tee, as was said earlier if you take sand the hole is likely to fill with water.
Jeff the 6th is hit regularly, I’ve only seen it hit once in person by James Bledge the Course Manager. The green wouldn’t hold a long shot so the ball needs to pitch into the bank and pop up onto the green. As hundreds of weak approaches over the year testify the ball rarely pops up nicely!
Quite often downwind, the shot is driver even though you have no chance of holding the green. The pitch from over the back is into the wind and pitching into the upslope with that bank stopping the ball. Pitching from short of the green downwind it's virtually impossible to hold the green. Much more sensible to be pitching back for your second shot than your third. Just don't hit it on the beach!
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Sean I’m not aware of any water hazards being built at Princes, there is a pond well to the rear of the 6th Shore tee, as was said earlier if you take sand the hole is likely to fill with water.
Jeff the 6th is hit regularly, I’ve only seen it hit once in person by James Bledge the Course Manager. The green wouldn’t hold a long shot so the ball needs to pitch into the bank and pop up onto the green. As hundreds of weak approaches over the year testify the ball rarely pops up nicely!
Quite often downwind, the shot is driver even though you have no chance of holding the green. The pitch from over the back is into the wind and pitching into the upslope with that bank stopping the ball. Pitching from short of the green downwind it's virtually impossible to hold the green. Much more sensible to be pitching back for your second shot than your third. Just don't hit it on the beach!
Thus spake the lang whanger! :)
In the right conditions I've also heard of 2 and 10 as being driveable!!!!
I once hit Driver onto 14.
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Sean I’m not aware of any water hazards being built at Princes, there is a pond well to the rear of the 6th Shore tee, as was said earlier if you take sand the hole is likely to fill with water.
Jeff the 6th is hit regularly, I’ve only seen it hit once in person by James Bledge the Course Manager. The green wouldn’t hold a long shot so the ball needs to pitch into the bank and pop up onto the green. As hundreds of weak approaches over the year testify the ball rarely pops up nicely!
Paul Turner and I both drove the 6th in successive drives from the stones on a warm summer day. The wind was a tad bid more westerly than the normal SW one. We both hit gentle fades that banked into the wind and left about 10-14 feet for Eagle.
Thankfully I sunk that putt. In my experience most long drives on 6 straighten out with the backing wind. and leave you long if you hit is well in the rough for a near impossible up and down. Ive only played Deal once into an easterly and came close to driving 6 by aiming at the pebble beach. Don't think I'll ever have that shot again.
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Sean I’m not aware of any water hazards being built at Princes, there is a pond well to the rear of the 6th Shore tee, as was said earlier if you take sand the hole is likely to fill with water.
Jeff the 6th is hit regularly, I’ve only seen it hit once in person by James Bledge the Course Manager. The green wouldn’t hold a long shot so the ball needs to pitch into the bank and pop up onto the green. As hundreds of weak approaches over the year testify the ball rarely pops up nicely!
Quite often downwind, the shot is driver even though you have no chance of holding the green. The pitch from over the back is into the wind and pitching into the upslope with that bank stopping the ball. Pitching from short of the green downwind it's virtually impossible to hold the green. Much more sensible to be pitching back for your second shot than your third. Just don't hit it on the beach!
Thus spake the lang whanger! :)
In the right conditions I've also heard of 2 and 10 as being driveable!!!!
I once hit Driver onto 14.
10 is doable, but I've never seen anyone close to 2. I think you'd have to get all the right bounces on the right day to do it. I've seen people closer to 7 than 2. Maybe that's because I normally hit the evens. I've hit driver on 14 before as well. On at least one occasion, I came up well short doing so. The wind can get pretty crazy there at times. I've hit both 3 iron and wedge on both 4 and 8 and pretty much everything from driver to 6 iron on 14.
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I’ve hit 10 myself with a running draw on the breeze. I’ve seen 2, 7 and 11 driven and know a chap who once hit the 17th
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I’ve hit 10 myself with a running draw on the breeze. I’ve seen 2, 7 and 11 driven and know a chap who once hit the 17th
17 is ridiculous. I could just about see 9 being doable and even 12 with the right conditions and the right player.
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Michael I asked the clubs longest hitter and he said he’d reached it once off the back tee. Nowadays with the right wind and concrete fairways 400 yards is achievable by the very long hitters. We watched mid handicap ladies getting 70-80 yards of run at St Andrews last year.
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Michael I asked the clubs longest hitter and he said he’d reached it once off the back tee. Nowadays with the right wind and concrete fairways 400 yards is achievable by the very long hitters. We watched mid handicap ladies getting 70-80 yards of run at St Andrews last year.
17? It's the lay of the land there that makes it so hard. To my recollection there just isn't anything about the front of 17 that seems conducive to a ball rolling onto it. That's not even allowing for the cross bunkers, which would be a hell of a carry. From the back tee it looks like a little over 330 yards carry. There are people out there who can do that (not many), but even then you'd need a perfect bounce and roll. I guess I'm also so used to playing that hole into the wind that it just doesn't occur to me that it might be possible. At least 12 the ball will funnel down towards the green if it's rolling.
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Michael carry the bunker and hit the downslope the ball will easily make the green, I hit one of my best shots in years using the downslope of the bunker to reach the green from a bad lie.