Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 01, 2010, 10:12:02 AM
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Joe Logan picks his public "Dream 18" with the help of Jeff Silverman and Mike Cirba, the denizen of golfclubatlas.com !!!
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20100329_Picking_the_perfect_18_holes.html
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/golf/Logans_Public_Dream_18.html
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Steve:
I quickly reviewed the list -- the 17th at The Architect's Club ?
How come they forgot the better 9th hole there ?
Also, the listing spreads way south to the greater Baltimore area with Bulle Rock ?
Also, no hole from Morgan Hill ? Also, the par-4 9th at Lederach? There are better holes to choose from there in my mind.
Joe L needs to get in the field a bit more.
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Isn't this like dreaming in PG rather than XXX? :)
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There can't be many more places in the U.S. where the disparity between the very good private courses and the very good public courses is so vast.
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I was surprised at the inclusion of the 17th at Architect's Club. It's a hike from Philly to get there as is Iron Valley. My suggestion to Joe about the 13th at Jeffersonville panned out. I suggested the 17th at Lederach but Joe chose the 9th.
Here's a better pic of the 13th at Jeffersonville:
(http://www.myphillygolf.com/i/web/Jeffersonville13.jpg)
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The 13th or 14th or whatever at Bella Vista makes me want to barf. Blech.
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Truly, the listing is more Mid-Atlantic than within the close confines of Center City.
Tell us plenty that Phila public golf needs to widen the net THAT far to get a final sampling of candidates.
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I was surprised at the inclusion of the 17th at Architect's Club. It's a hike from Philly to get there as is Iron Valley. My suggestion to Joe about the 13th at Jeffersonville panned out. I suggested the 17th at Lederach but Joe chose the 9th.
Steve,
Agree with you on Jeffersonville, #13 is the best hole on the course. As far as Lederach is concerned, IMO, there are 5 better holes on the front nine than #9.
Nice picture, I assume that was your drive.
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The more I think about it, the more i believe its easier to come up with "18 golf holes i hate" in philadelphia than it is to find the best 18.
For the record, I like the 13th hole at jeffersonville, but 6th is my favorite.
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Joe was kind enough to solicit my opinion, but I probably added as much confusion as clarity to his process. I ended up suggesting 77 holes on 46 courses, which he told me had his head swimmiing.
Joe and I don't always agree but I respect his opinion and he was under some self-imposed restrictions. First, the article was for a regional newspaper, the Philadelphia Inquirer, which reaches well beyond the city and immediate burbs, thus the need to widen the lens. That in itself made getting a single list distilled down a challenge. Further, he wanted it to be a "golf course", with the need for balance, with short and long par threes, reachable and unreachable par fives, etc....and finally, he wanted only a single selection from each course as well as a mix of high-end, middle of the road, and budget bargain courses.
That made it a daunting task.
In the end, I think Joe selected 9 of the holes of the 77 I nominated, and about 13 of the 46 courses I selected were represented.
Anyone want to guess which 9 holes? ;)
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p.s.....Steve, can you enlarge that picture for us? I can't quite make out each leg hair. ;) ;D
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Mike:
Any reason why holes were not selected as to their actual position on the course ?
Would have been really interesting to see a total 18 for just the high-end, middle of the road and budget bargain layouts so people could see all three separately.
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In the end, I think Joe selected 9 of the holes of the 77 I nominated, and about 13 of the 46 courses I selected were represented.
Anyone want to guess which 9 holes? ;)
Mike, I'll take the bait:
1. Walnut Lane Golf Course, Philadelphia. No. 15, 340 yards, par 4.
2. Bulle Rock Golf Club, Havre de Grace, Md. No. 13, 476 yards, par 4.
3. Golf Course at Glen Mills, Delaware County. No. 2. 431 yards, par 4.
4. Bella Vista Golf Course, Montgomery
5. Deerfield Golf & Tennis Club, Newark, Del. No. 1, 523 yards, par 5.
6. Jeffersonville Golf Club, Montgomery County. No. 13, 430 yards, par 4.
7. Inniscrone Golf Club, Avondale, Chester County. No. 3, 317 yards, par 4.
8. Cobbs Creek Golf Club, West Philadelphia. No. 17, 193 yards, par 3.
9. Wyncote Golf Club, Oxford, Chester County. No. 9, 580 yards, par 5.
10. Lederach Golf Club, Harleysville, Montgomery County. No. 9, 379 yards, par 4.
11. Raven's Claw Golf Club, Pottstown. No. 14, 137 yards, par 3.
12. Renault Winery Resort & Golf, Egg Harbor City, N.J. No. 8, 322 yards, par 4.
13. Broad Run Golfer's Club, West Chester. No. 1, 498 yards, par 5.
14. Makefield Highlands Golf Club, Yardley, Bucks County. No. 15, 423 yards, par 4.
15. Scotland Run Golf Club, Williamstown, Gloucester County. No. 16. 402 yards, par 4.
16. Paxon Hollow Country Club, Marple Township, Delaware County. No. 13, 363 yards, par 4.
17. The Architects Club, Lopatcong, N.J. No. 17, 200 yards, par 3.
18. Iron Valley Golf Club, Lebanon. No. 13, 588 yards, par 5.
The 15th at MH is the best hole there in IMHO (it's my home course) and certainly should be in the discussion for this list. I also like the 5th and the 10th.
Interesting the 17th makes it from Cobb's. I would say the current 5th or 12th would be my pick from that course. BTW, I love the pictures of the 17th at Cobb's on the website... only one problem, it shows the 13th fairway and the 18th green. We have to pull Logan back into the fold again so that we get our PR engine back online!
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Here is Joe Logan's response to those critical of his selections:
http://www.myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=4209&pid=11#
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Very good guesses, Mr. Walsh. ;D
You hit 7 of 9.
(http://api.ning.com/files/mqkKlgODNalxu9ZtuV-dd2k8q2imJHjUvxxagT6bt-f7DRcicWTcbQSLhr6UUgAeAIHDiwXKPCH1pQ1kv3s2M8usQhDFIurA/SevenofNine.jpg)
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the scotland run and walnut lane holes instead of the ones he chose at inniscrone and lederach?
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My guess is Mike C would have taken Renault and SR as the other two courses.
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Steve:
I quickly reviewed the list -- the 17th at The Architect's Club ?
How come they forgot the better 9th hole there ?
Also, the listing spreads way south to the greater Baltimore area with Bulle Rock ?
Also, no hole from Morgan Hill ? Also, the par-4 9th at Lederach? There are better holes to choose from there in my mind.
Joe L needs to get in the field a bit more.
Opinions, Matt. Opinions. :)
What I would like to hear from you MDub is your favorite public 9 holes from the Philly/Pennsy area. I don't want to stress you by asking for your favorite 18 as you and I both know the public courses around here are closer to dreadful than first class. ;)
Please, indulge me!
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Joe:
I will be glad to include such a thing -- I'll also try to include a 18-hole layout where the holes selected are from their actual position on the course itself.
Given the article ranged in area from nearly Baltimore to the northern fringe of the Phila area I am sure I will be able to come up with something -- even if the area does have subpar overall depth -- I'm sure I can squeeze in an 18-hole allstar team.
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Joe,
You got one of two selections correct.
I should mention that in a number of cases, I nominated up to three holes on a single course, and in some cases, the hole that was picked would have been my third best.
That was the case with both 17 at Cobbs (Geoff and I are in concurrence there) and 16 at Scotland Run.
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Let's throw a wrench in the works:
The 2nd Hole at our local muni, the venerable and elite Warminster's Five Ponds Golf Club should be on this list.
So should the 4th at Middletown CC, and maybe even the 12th.
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Joe,
You got one of two selections correct.
I should mention that in a number of cases, I nominated up to three holes on a single course, and in some cases, the hole that was picked would have been my third best.
That was the case with both 17 at Cobbs (Geoff and I are in concurrence there) and 16 at Scotland Run.
so I got one correct too?
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Joe,
You got one of two selections correct.
I should mention that in a number of cases, I nominated up to three holes on a single course, and in some cases, the hole that was picked would have been my third best.
That was the case with both 17 at Cobbs (Geoff and I are in concurrence there) and 16 at Scotland Run.
Mike/Joe,
On a restored Cobb's, the 17th might have real competition for making the top 5... I'd put a restored (old #'s) 5, 6, 7, 12, and 13 ahead of it. 2, 3, 4, 11, and a lengthened 18 might also knock it down with the addition of some back tees and some TLC.
Of course if we really restored the ORIGINAL design it wouldn't make the top 18... ;)
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Guys, when people say "if" such a hole is restored or "if" such a thing is done -- the listing needs to reflect a what "is" reality.
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Alex,
Yes, you were half right, as well. ;)
Matt,
The list does reflect today's reality. Geoff is just speculating at what could be. ;)
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Gents:
I'm just about set to present my counter all-public Phila 18 but before doing so I need a bit of assistance -- my circle area doesn't include the State of Maryland -- I just don't see how it can be included as part of the Phila immediate golf landscape. One can also say the same for Delaware and any layouts south of Newark. Ditto to those courses that are on the doorstep of other major locales such as Harrisburg or Lancaster.
I do concede that South Jersey is part of the mixture -- but areas in Jersey north of I-78 would not be -- with that in mind, a place like The Architect's would still qualify for inclusion. Courses that are south of the AC expressway would be OK -- but known north of it unless they are immediately adjacent to the Delaware River.
The areas north of Phila would be in play up to where one hits I-80 and any courses that are immediately above or below that location.
Sorry to provide a mega monster map but frankly the original inclusion of layout was too far spread in my mind.
One other thing I plan on doing -- post holes only in their original position as found on the scorecard -- and to provide a regulation par-72 layout that includes a combo of par-3, par-4 and par-5 holes. I did this for Jersey Golfer a few years back and it's not e-z so please be patient with me as I sort through my recommendations this weekend.
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I'm going to post my allstar 18 but will do so with nine holes at a clip.
The 18-hole layout will feature a par-72 layout with the holes selected from where they are positioned on their respective layout.
1st hole --
2nd hole --
3rd hole -- Inniscrone / 317 yards (4) -- A peach of a short par-4 hole -- Gil Hanse certainly demonstrates here the value of such holes.
4th hole -- Sand Barrens (south) / 439 yards (4) -- Double-green here and simply a fine alternate green situation. With the green on the right side used -- the tee shot becomes even more demanding. Shaping shots and both greens require some careful thought.
5th hole -- Morgan Hill / 546 yards (5) -- Just a great hole because the tee shot must be in the fairway and well-positioned. Architect Kelly Blake Moran did a stellar job with a cross bunker that cuts off the middle of the fairway. The player must decide whether to fly the cross bunker of lay up before it. Laying up only increases the distance and demands. Getting a par-5 that make better players think carefully is no e-z feat. The 5th at MH is the kind of hole that failure to think and execute properly will mean that rare bogey six for the better player. On the flip side the hole is not overly demanding for the bogey shooter.
6th hole --
7th hole --
8th hole --
9th hole -- The Architect's / 450 yards (4) -- Plays generally back into the prevailing SW winds. The tee shot doesn't offer you a glimpse of the green but it pays to keep the ball down the left side -- water is an issue on the approach and the green is quite special with plenty of subtle but effective contours.
10th hole -- Buena Vista / 505 yards (5) -- Hole gives more of a Pine Valley look and the Gorden design really offers a range of options. The green can be reached in two blows but the frontal bunker area really must be negotiated with care -- whether with the 2nd or 3rd shot. Course gets lost in the sauce because it's not on the main track near the other AC publc layouts.
11th hole --
12th hole --
13th hole -- Scotland Run / 213 yards (3) -- Plenty of attention -- too much I might add -- is paid to the holes along the quarry -- especially the par-4 16th which is one of the most ovrehyped holes at the course. The par-3 13th is well protected in the front by a very well-positioned bunker and the green is no e-z matter if nerves are an issue.
14th hole -- Twisted Dune / 414 yards (4) -- So many fine holes at TD -- but the 14th is a gem. The tee shot must be played well because the approach is really demanding - especially with the pin cut to the far right behind plenty of protection. Named Grindel's Walk and the player needs to
15th hole --
16th hole --
17th hole -- Cobbs Creek / 195 yards (3) -- Plenty of things have been said about this hole. Just need a first rate shot off the tee to a demanding target. Nuff said.
18th hole -- Cape May National / 446 yards (4) -- A bear of a finishing hole. Water plays down the left side and then cuts near the green itself. The more you play to the right the more demanding the approach becomes because of the more challenging angle and likely increased distance. Par is no small feat -- and frankly bogey is no automatic should nerves overcome your senses when playing this wonderful ending hole.
** One other thing -- Lederach didn't make my first nine listed but will have one hole included. Care to guess which one ?
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Matt,
What's up with 6 out of 9 in Jersey? ;D
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If you have a brain in your head Matt (!), you've chosen the par 4 8th at Lederach.
;) :D ;D
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Joe:
Speaking of brains -- why don't you wait to see the final 9 holes listed before barking prematurely? ;)
Mike:
Come out of the clouds of private golf in Phila and understand the reality -- the quality public holes are few and far on the Pennsy side of the Delaware. The Jersey side generates more of the interest.
One other thing -- I've listed nine (9) holes and three (3) -- not two (2) are from the Pennsy side. Look, I'm going to list at least one more Pennsy layout with Lederach so don't despair -- just yet. ;D
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Joe:
Speaking of brains -- why don't you wait to see the final 9 holes listed before barking prematurely? ;)
Hmmm, you said take a guess Ward-o. :)
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About 4 years ago I put together my own "top Philly 18" corresponding to the hole number on each course. I've been meaning to do another since I've played probably 50 more courses since I originally put this on my web page. But I know how long it takes to ponder all the holes!
Dream Philly Public Course (from my web page, circa 2006)
Front nine:
1. Jeffersonville (par 4, 448 yards).
2. Bulle Rock (par 5, 555 yards)
3. Pine Hill (par 4, 442 yards)
4. Inniscrone (par 4, 435 yards from the tips).
5. Hickory Valley - Presidential (par 3, 165 yards from the tips).
6. Glen Mills (par 5, 547 yards)
7. Shore Gate (par 4, 401 yards)
8. Honeybrook (par 3, 212 yards).
9. Architects Club (par 4, 447 yards).
Back nine:
10. Pine Hill (par 4, 449 yards)
11. Bulle Rock (par 5, 624 yards)
12. Wyncote (par 4, 342 yards).
13. Inniscrone (par 4, 380 yards).
14. Bella Vista (par 3, 152 yards).
15. Makefield Highlands (par 4, 423 yards).
16. Scotland Run (par 4, 402 yards)
17. Architects Club (par 3, 180 yards).
18. Scotland Run (par 5, 530 yards)
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Joe:
The 16th at SR is way overhyped -- did you see the par-3 13th ?
You included Bulle Rock - which really is in the Baltimore suburbs -- I'm mean how far do you want to extend the Phila area -- maybe you could throw in some North Jersey courses too. ::)
You also included multiple selections from the same course -- Pine Hill, which incidentally is no longer public -- although I do agree with you on the selection of the 10th. I only picked one hole per course to spread the selections around.
#17 (Architect's) and #18 at SR. Surely you jest. ::)
If you wanted a somewhat unique hole -- instead of the 7th at Shoregate -- how bout the re-created Lido hole at McCullough's Emerald Links?
I also think your underplaying of the Jersey side -- not that Pine Hill is no longer public -- also undercuts what the Jersey side of public golf now provides.
The good news for Phila public golf is that places like Morgan Hill and Lederach have now entered the scene and clearly made a major impact.
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:( :( :( :( :( :(
I was disappointed that the Jersey shore courses were left out...of course I'm a little prejudiced
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Perhaps both of you missed that I wrote my list was composed back in 2006 (if not even earlier, I forget)! I've been meaning to do another since I've played probably 50 more courses since I originally put this on my web page, including many courses in Jersey, including the Shore. :)
In due time.
Matt: why do you find #16 at SR to be "way overhyped". I'm curious.
No, Matt, I did not see the par 3 13th. I've played SR probably 20 times, but each time the 13th hole was closed and I missed it. ;)
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Good debate. I'm waiting to see what Matt opines.
Archie: Which of the holes would you care to nominate?
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Joe:
The 16th at Architect's is a scenic site but nothing more. The bunker complex provides a "cape" like element but the width of the fairway and the overall length of the hole doesn't really make the bunker complex that big a deal for most players to overcome. It's a good hole -- is it really great and noteworthy -- not really.
Joe, the Shore area of Jersey would represent no less than nine (9) holes on anyone's list because the Pennsy side is that pathetic -- minus a few places -- thank heavens places like Morgan Hill and Lederach have entered the scene.
Joe, I can only wonder when speaking about SR's 13th hole if the thing that was "closed" was your mind when playing it that many times. ;D
One final thing -- if you can list your top 18 as a par-72 course with only one selection per course and have them inserted into your "personal 18" as they are listed on their respective course. Thanks ...
Gents:
One other thing -- there are a few holes of note that I would not include on my single 18 but would be a second team selection. The 4th at TD is one that quickly comes to mind.
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Lederach is a fascinating addition to the greater Phila scene -- it follows-up quite nicely from what Moran did with Morgan Hill and for those in the immediate Phila area is much closer to access since Harleysville is not that far away for many.
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Dear Matt,
We're (still) waiting (for your awesome 9 hole, ahem, 18 hole layout).
Sincerely,
Judge Elijah Smails
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THE FINAL NINE HOLES STARTS FOR ME WITH THE ADDITION OF
WYNCOTE'S 11TH HOLE / 461 YARDS !!!
Eight more to follow ...
*****
I'm going to post my allstar 18 but will do so with nine holes at a clip.
The 18-hole layout will feature a par-72 layout with the holes selected from where they are positioned on their respective layout.
1st hole --
2nd hole --
3rd hole -- Inniscrone / 317 yards (4) -- A peach of a short par-4 hole -- Gil Hanse certainly demonstrates here the value of such holes.
4th hole -- Sand Barrens (south) / 439 yards (4) -- Double-green here and simply a fine alternate green situation. With the green on the right side used -- the tee shot becomes even more demanding. Shaping shots and both greens require some careful thought.
5th hole -- Morgan Hill / 546 yards (5) -- Just a great hole because the tee shot must be in the fairway and well-positioned. Architect Kelly Blake Moran did a stellar job with a cross bunker that cuts off the middle of the fairway. The player must decide whether to fly the cross bunker of lay up before it. Laying up only increases the distance and demands. Getting a par-5 that make better players think carefully is no e-z feat. The 5th at MH is the kind of hole that failure to think and execute properly will mean that rare bogey six for the better player. On the flip side the hole is not overly demanding for the bogey shooter.
6th hole --
7th hole --
8th hole --
9th hole -- The Architect's / 450 yards (4) -- Plays generally back into the prevailing SW winds. The tee shot doesn't offer you a glimpse of the green but it pays to keep the ball down the left side -- water is an issue on the approach and the green is quite special with plenty of subtle but effective contours.
10th hole -- Buena Vista / 505 yards (5) -- Hole gives more of a Pine Valley look and the Gorden design really offers a range of options. The green can be reached in two blows but the frontal bunker area really must be negotiated with care -- whether with the 2nd or 3rd shot. Course gets lost in the sauce because it's not on the main track near the other AC publc layouts.
11th hole -- Wyncote / 461 yards (4) -- just a bear of a hole -- rarely gets played to its par figure. Need solid drive and no less a quality approach.
12th hole --
13th hole -- Scotland Run / 213 yards (3) -- Plenty of attention -- too much I might add -- is paid to the holes along the quarry -- especially the par-4 16th which is one of the most ovrehyped holes at the course. The par-3 13th is well protected in the front by a very well-positioned bunker and the green is no e-z matter if nerves are an issue.
14th hole -- Twisted Dune / 414 yards (4) -- So many fine holes at TD -- but the 14th is a gem. The tee shot must be played well because the approach is really demanding - especially with the pin cut to the far right behind plenty of protection. Named Grindel's Walk and the player needs to
15th hole --
16th hole --
17th hole -- Cobbs Creek / 195 yards (3) -- Plenty of things have been said about this hole. Just need a first rate shot off the tee to a demanding target. Nuff said.
18th hole -- Cape May National / 446 yards (4) -- A bear of a finishing hole. Water plays down the left side and then cuts near the green itself. The more you play to the right the more demanding the approach becomes because of the more challenging angle and likely increased distance. Par is no small feat -- and frankly bogey is no automatic should nerves overcome your senses when playing this wonderful ending hole.
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Hey Joe:
I'll throw another into the mix -- Lederach's par-5 12th hole -- demanding but fair hole -- only those with sufficient skills / guts can venture to the extreme back tees.
I gave your 8th hole some consideration -- but it was quite fleeting when compared to the 12th. ;D
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Oops -- forgot to add it to the listing of holes already cited ...
I'm going to post my allstar 18 but will do so with nine holes at a clip.
The 18-hole layout will feature a par-72 layout with the holes selected from where they are positioned on their respective layout.
1st hole --
2nd hole --
3rd hole -- Inniscrone / 317 yards (4) -- A peach of a short par-4 hole -- Gil Hanse certainly demonstrates here the value of such holes.
4th hole -- Sand Barrens (south) / 439 yards (4) -- Double-green here and simply a fine alternate green situation. With the green on the right side used -- the tee shot becomes even more demanding. Shaping shots and both greens require some careful thought.
5th hole -- Morgan Hill / 546 yards (5) -- Just a great hole because the tee shot must be in the fairway and well-positioned. Architect Kelly Blake Moran did a stellar job with a cross bunker that cuts off the middle of the fairway. The player must decide whether to fly the cross bunker of lay up before it. Laying up only increases the distance and demands. Getting a par-5 that make better players think carefully is no e-z feat. The 5th at MH is the kind of hole that failure to think and execute properly will mean that rare bogey six for the better player. On the flip side the hole is not overly demanding for the bogey shooter.
6th hole --
7th hole --
8th hole --
9th hole -- The Architect's / 450 yards (4) -- Plays generally back into the prevailing SW winds. The tee shot doesn't offer you a glimpse of the green but it pays to keep the ball down the left side -- water is an issue on the approach and the green is quite special with plenty of subtle but effective contours.
10th hole -- Buena Vista / 505 yards (5) -- Hole gives more of a Pine Valley look and the Gorden design really offers a range of options. The green can be reached in two blows but the frontal bunker area really must be negotiated with care -- whether with the 2nd or 3rd shot. Course gets lost in the sauce because it's not on the main track near the other AC publc layouts.
11th hole -- Wyncote / 461 yards (4) -- just a bear of a hole -- rarely gets played to its par figure. Need solid drive and no less a quality approach.
12th hole -- Lederach / 654 yards (5) -- Need to play threwe quality shots in order -- plenty of bumps along the way for those who err even in the slightest.
13th hole -- Scotland Run / 213 yards (3) -- Plenty of attention -- too much I might add -- is paid to the holes along the quarry -- especially the par-4 16th which is one of the most ovrehyped holes at the course. The par-3 13th is well protected in the front by a very well-positioned bunker and the green is no e-z matter if nerves are an issue.
14th hole -- Twisted Dune / 414 yards (4) -- So many fine holes at TD -- but the 14th is a gem. The tee shot must be played well because the approach is really demanding - especially with the pin cut to the far right behind plenty of protection. Named Grindel's Walk and the player needs to
15th hole --
16th hole --
17th hole -- Cobbs Creek / 195 yards (3) -- Plenty of things have been said about this hole. Just need a first rate shot off the tee to a demanding target. Nuff said.
18th hole -- Cape May National / 446 yards (4) -- A bear of a finishing hole. Water plays down the left side and then cuts near the green itself. The more you play to the right the more demanding the approach becomes because of the more challenging angle and likely increased distance. Par is no small feat -- and frankly bogey is no automatic should nerves overcome your senses when playing this wonderful ending hole.
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:o :o :o :o
I still have a hard time considering AC as a public course given my fond remembrances of it as the Frasers' club. This being said my new favorite hole there is #16 , which has some fabulous links attributes.
At Twisted , my favorite hole is probably #11
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Archie:
You raise a good point about ACCC -- it's long time history as a private club makes it tough for me too in seeing it as a public course now.
Gents:
In continuing on -- I now add my first par-3 on the front side -- it's from a layout that gets little real attention from many but it's pedigree still resonates for those who have eyes to see. George Fazio's first design was at Atlantis (now called Ocean County at Atlantis) -- located in Tuckerton -- near the Jersey Shore. The par-3 6th at Atlantis is a gem. You hit from an elevated tee and the green sits behind a pond with a fronting natural sand bunker that gently fees itself into the pond. The green runs diagonally from lower left to back right and pity the player who avoids the fronting H20 and goes over the green -- deadsville for sure. A completely natural hole and never lacking for real drama.
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Archie:
I would add the 16th at ACCC as well. Great mid-length par-4 hole. Good call on your part.
Curious to get your take on you view the 14th hole I mentioned at TD.
Gents:
Mea culpa on my part -- I left out the yardage for the 6th at Ocean County at Atlantis -- plays 190 yards -- although because of the elevated tee a bit shorter.
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Matt - FYI, Cecil County, MD is part of the Philly DMA.
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Dan:
OK -- it's within a 75-mile radius so I'd include it. Thanks.
Likely, I might add one hole from Bulle Rock into the mix.
Dan, curious to see your listing.
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:D ;D :)
Hey Matt , I like a lot of holes at Twisted , even ten years later....I really think that the green could have been much better at 14 , if I could change it would flatten the right side a bit and give a couple more good pins behind the front right bunker
this being said it is probably the hardest hole and requires a really good tee shot and second ..
.Eleven is my favorite because it is the most Scottish of all the holes and has the best overall green complex. We have a new tee on the plans that is waiting to be built that makes the second shot fairly long and requires a shot that runs in for all but the longest of hitters. It's also semi blind and has some nice quirk to it
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I think the par5 2nd at Bulle Rock could qualify but for me it's an 83mile trip at 1.35 hrs. Atlantis in Tuckerton, NJ is a 93mile trip at close to 2 hours. I do play the NJ shore courses as I frequently spend weekends there in season.
I do like your choice of 10 at Buena Vista. It's an overlooked course IMO.
I still prefer 13 at Jeffersonville over 13 at Scotland Run but if you're looking for a par 3 on the back 9, 15 at Jeffersonville is a quality hole @ 215y from the tips.
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Steve:
Do you have any pics of the hole at Jeffersonville ?
I like the 2nd at Bulle Rock too -- solid hole that really turns on the juice after the fairly benign opener there.
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Matt,
Here is a pic of 15@Jeffersonville from Joe Bausch's collection:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Jeffersonville/mediafiles/l106.jpg)
The green slopes severely from back to front. The tee shot is all carry.
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Steve:
Tell you what I'll switch the par-3 designation and leave SR for another choice -- but it won't be the 16th -- the 16th at ACCC is good bit beyond that hole.
Thanks for sharing ...
p.s. what is your listing of an all-18 as a par-72 course with no more than one hole per course.
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I've left three openings to be completed. I have a few worthy holes for insertion -- curious to see how others would have me complete the listing. Please note -- the final three must be split between a par-5, par-4 and par-3 holes.
1st hole --
2nd hole -- Scotland Run (NJ) / 452 or 414 yards (4)
3rd hole -- Inniscrone (PA) / 317 yards (4)
4th hole -- Sand Barrens (south) (NJ) / 439 yards (4)
5th hole -- Morgan Hill (PA) / 546 yards (5)
6th hole -- Ocean County at Atlantis (NJ) / 200 yards (3)
7th hole --
8th hole --
9th hole -- The Architect's (NJ) / 450 yards (4)
10th hole -- Buena Vista (NJ) / 505 yards (5)
11th hole -- Wyncote (PA) / 461 yards (4)
12th hole -- Lederach (PA) / 654 yards (5)
13th hole -- Bulle Rock (MD) / 476 yards (4)
14th hole -- Twisted Dune (NJ) / 414 yards (4)
15th hole -- Jeffersonville (PA) / 215 yards (3)
16th hole -- ACCC (NJ) / 400 yards (4)
17th hole -- Cobbs Creek (PA) / 195 yards (3)
18th hole -- Cape May National (NJ) / 446 yards (4)
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The par 3 #8 at Deerfield is one possibility, 200 yards uphill to modestly sloped green. I assume you want courses not already used and the hole is the # at the course. #8 at Paxon Hollow is also a strong par 3. #1 at Springfield (current routing) is a very strong opening par 4 of over 400 yards that leaves a downhill lie to an uphill green with quite a bit of slope to it. And a par 5---#7 at the originally and now again Pike Creek Golf Club. It is 500 yards with a demanding tee shot, a tricky layup or a challenging go for it in two to a demanding green.
Matt ,
If you aren't familiar with these courses then I wonder about your statements of the quality of piblic golf in the Philly area. Personally, I think Paxon, Springfield, Centerton, Pike Creek, Porky Oliver, Deerfield and Back Creek each have several star holes that could make any list.
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Hey Mike:
I've played all but 2-3 courses you mentioned -- instead of telling me deficient my listing is -- why not post yours.
If you think the Pennsy side is equivalent or better than the South Jersey public side please feel free to explain in GREAT DETAIL how that might be. Think of it this way -- fortunately Lederach and Morgan Hill have opened in recent years to provide a valuable contribution.
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I don't recall calling your list deficient, just kidded that your first nine had 6 Jersey. I'm not good with remembering every hole on courses. I don't even try. But, when you narrowed it down and asked for a few specific ones I could think of courses not listed and holes not used.
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Mike:
That's my point -- post your listing and let's see what you mention. To speak about mine or other holes in the "abstract" dioesn't add much to the discussion. I'd just like to see what courses / holes you emphasize.
thanks ...
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It's amazing for all the people who bark about my listing thus far -- I have not see others venture forward with ANY selections !
What gives ?
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Matt,
You asked for ideas; I gave you ideas. Which hole that you chose that I "barked" about?
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Mike:
Post a Phila top 18 listing from the ones you have played.
It's real simple.
I've got just three holes to fill out my dance card.
What's with the tap dance avoidance angle ?
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8th hole - Honeybrook's 8th?
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Guys:
Before people starting lobbing forward just a hole or two -- can people provide an entire 18-hole layout ? Preferably one that is a par-72 and features holes in the same location as they would be found when playing.
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Matt,
I have no interest in creating such a ranking. It is the farthest thing from my mind. It's nothing personal; I just don't think that way.
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Mike:
The purpose of the thread is to do exactly that.
Coming out and opining on what I have posted -- the states themselves -- and then not doing so wastes everyone's time and just undermines your own crediibility.
Mike -- you can certainly expand your "think"ing to do just that. It's not that hard.
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Matt - it's too much work ;)
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Dan:
I respect your opinion but you can't really comment on the top public courses in Phila and their respective holes ?
Hard for me to believe that given your knowledge.
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Matt,
What I can do this morning is pitch a #1 for your list:
Broad Run #1, Par 5. I think Rees did a great job on this hole. Unfortunately, the next 17 aren't nearly as good.