Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Rob Rigg on January 26, 2010, 10:59:14 PM
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The scenario is this (I think the exercise should be fun for those who choose to play)
- Real GCAs can pick themselves if they would like! Armchair GCAs cannot take a flier.
- You have a rolling site about an hour from a city that has a couple of brooks running through it but no other natural water hazards
- The site is 225 acres - rectangular in nature - you want to build an 18 hole course, range, putting green, chipping area and clubhouse
- There are a few specimen trees on the site but not too many
- The drainage is okay - the site has a mix of clay and gravel
- Your goal for the site is up to you - and that is what makes this interesting - 6k yards? 7k yards? 8k yards? Public? Semi? Private?
- You have sufficient capital to bring in any archie/team, sand cap if necessary and move a bunch of dirt if you want - but the less you spend the better (obviously) as the course/club needs to be viable financially
- What are your top three criteria for a successful course and how will they impact your archie choice?
Unfortunately, you cannot go through an RFP process - Who or what team would you choose and why?
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WTF, may as well say Doak or Coore and Crenshaw and vote for a winner in this election! hell, we all know they are the only two who are deemed worthy of designing a golf course by this crowd and this thread seems like another angle to say "Hail CC, Hail TD!"
Even this thread suggests the winner(s), since it is OBVIOUSLY better to move less dirt, drainage is perfect, etc. Not to mention an RFP is verbotten because Gawd Help Us, we wouldn't want anyone else to actually get a chance to put some facts in our heads! :(
Hey, did I ever tell the story about what I accidentally said when I asked my ex to pass the salt?
So here is my question - Jesus comes back to earth...Do you go see him or do you prefer to watch Doak pee in the fw? ;D
Hey, in all seriousness, I would probably do it myself, make it public and might very well ask to collaborate, probably even with TD. I have collaborated with both John Fought and Jay Morrish on different projects. I recall Lennon saying that he liked certain music and would love to talk to the musicians because he would never think about music the way they did. There are some gca's out there whose brain I would like to pick (and others, just split their heads open but thats a whole nother bag of worms) and I have done the pro thing, so I think I could learn something and vice versa from working with someone who comes out of a completely different mind set.
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I'd choose myself
1) My key strategy would be not to design a course, but a landscape for golf... look at the Old Course, it's not a 18 seperate holes, it's not even a course, it's more a landscape entity in which golf is played. The flow and potential flexibility of that place is phenomenal.
2) After that, well it's all about being inspired by the property to built a course that is specific to the site. A place like Oakmont has always inspired me in that regard since it's a bold overall concept : A shot poorly played should be a shot irrevocably lost, that translate in features that are unique and fits the particular site, ditches, bunkering etc.
3) I think elegance and simplicity but still character, will be the next criteria, it's the way the game should be, you don't need flashy stuff to make a course good, acre-wide bunkers, hard to maintain features etc... You need a solid set of greens, a good routing and artistic imagination sense to produce a great course... but the great course must not be 250 $ a round or 50 000 $ membership.
It would be my first full design, that's another criteria... ;) I don't come it with the idea that I'm going to revolutionize golf course architecture, or be better than this guy or this one, I'd just build a golf course and grinding hard at the ongoing process of building the best course possible, golf course architecture is a process.
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I would select Mike Clayton, because I am patriotic and I think he could do as good a job as others if given the tools.
Other Australian options aren't particularly appealing given what they have produced over the years, except for Greg Norman, and I think he's probably busy enough!
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Not sure who I'd pick, but I can think of a one or two that I wouldn't pick.
What's the going rate for some of the big names these days?
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Rob, I think someone regional would be cool. In the PNW I think Dan Hixson is ready for some more great works in the future.
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Jeff - I know you have had your cheerios peed in a lot lately - so I understand your frustration - BUT I actually see this as an opportunity for people to speak about their "less heralded" favorites - maybe even Regional favorites who they would love to give a chance - or maybe not.
Seeing the work that Tony Ristola has done in Poland has been inspiring, same with what Mike Nuzzo did at Wolf Point, Whitman and Co. did at Sagebrush, Hixson did at Wine Valley, Mike D at Kingsley, and so on and so forth.
There are names out there that may not be mentioned on the site everyday and these guys are doing or have done great work.
People can also choose their three main criteria for success - some may want to build a fairly low budget course that leads to maximum enjoyability for many while others might want to build an exclusive club.
I am sure that some people will choose Doak, C&C or maybe even one of the guys on their crew - It is hard to argue with success.
As has been mentioned - the property at hand is not "all world", but it could be a great course and a lot of fun.
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To answer part of the question:
I would make this course the minimalist's oakmont. I want to be remembered for this creation, should I do some collaborating with whomever I hire. I am a low handicap player, and although that may influence my vision, I want my course to tip out at around 7,500 yards, play as a par 71, and have the ability to hold large proffesional tournaments, with the obvious goal being a U.S. f@#$ing Open!!!
While writing this, I've started to consider who I'd want, and no offense to Tom D, or any of the other archies out there, but I would choose C&C. First, of the prominent living GCAs today, they are the only ones (with the possible exception of Gil Hanse, Rustic Canyon) who's courses I've had the chance to experience (Bandon Trails, which incidentally was my favorite at the Resort, though we played PD in a half gale). With Sand Hills and Friar's Head, I think they combine visually stunning minimalist architecture with very difficult setups, and dammit this thing is gonna host a US Open so it's gonna be hard!
In my view, this is a one-time opportunity, so I intend to make the most of it.
My apologies to Jeff Brauer whom I hold the highest regard for. ;D
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Jeff,
I posted before seeing your Edit - funny that you mentioned "pee" as well - touche.
I didn't stipulate "no Doak and C&C" because it would be interesting to read everyone's reason - "because I love them x 3" is one way to do it but something more thoughtful would add more to the conversation.
I said "no RFP" because a list of choices is boring.
JD,
I have not played WV yet - but it looks like Hixson did a great job there.
Duncan,
Based on the threads lately showing Mike Clayton's work in Australia and Tas that seems like a very solid choice.
The site described would certainly have a potential "Heathland" vibe to it and Mike would probably do a fantastic job of it with his experiences at home and abroad.
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- You have sufficient capital to bring in any archie/team, sand cap if necessary and move a bunch of dirt if you want - but the less you spend the better (obviously) as the course/club needs to be viable financially
There in lies the rub, with sufficient capital, I would rather pee on the 225 acres then build a golf course ...
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Noted - Mike Benham would rather use the 225 acres as a personal urinal than a golf course - that is a fantastic legacy :)
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Noted - Mike Benham would rather use the 225 acres as a personal urinal than a golf course - that is a fantastic legacy :)
I want to know how he would design THAT for the prevailing wind condiitions......
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If it was my land, I'd be looking at the following:
- a lay of the land design if at all possible to keep costs down. You can accentuate the rolling topography by having a lot of 'movement' throughout the holes, similar to what Strantz did at MPCC Shore.
- a routing that encourages walking and helps with the pace of play
- a strategic design that embraces the ground game, offers options off the tee, rewards proper placement in the fairway with better angles to the pin and great greensites with short grass all around to add fun and options in the short game
That all said, if it's my land, I'm hiring Ian Andrew and Mike Weir to design the course, since A) their design philosophy seems ideal to me, B) they are hungry, talented and looking for their first big break and C) they're Canadian and assuming the land is in my own country, I'd like to support my own.
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Matt,
With all due respect on your point no.1, if you accenuate the rolls throughout the holes, you have to strip the topsoil, grade it, and replace the topsoil. Its just as expensive to move that kind of earth in "minimalistic" fashion as it is to move earth, say RTJ style. Second, any savings you might have would be eaten up in Mike Weir's fee (if he is typical of pros) so what would make the course better for the same dollars?
BTW, one of the first thoughts that went through my head was that if this is going to be a personal statement course (as most of us would make it) I would prefer to leave 10% of the budget back for future tinkering, a la Ross at Pinehurst, although he was working on Tufts money.
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I would pick Tommy Naccarato. I think it would be cool to see a rookie design a course that has an obvious deep seated passion but without anything to their credit, and who "gets it". Kinda like Tilly and Shawnee.
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Jeff,
Just curious given the current economy (not that Mike isn't making some nice bank on tour).
Do you think a pro - like Mike - who has not designed any courses (I might be wrong here - maybe he has been involved in a couple?) would have a huge design fee?
Do you think Lehman had a huge fee for Prarie Club and Marsh as well? Did that mean the developer paid them "pro" fees instead of giving Hanse and Co. a full 18 (or someone else) for significantly less from a design fee standpoint?
I would imagine, note the word imagine as I have no idea, that Matt could get Mike and Ian for a reasonable fee these days even though Mike is a pro?
Matt,
Based on the quality of a redesign/reno that Ian laid out for a course in Toronto, which unfortunately was not acted on, and the quality of Ian's reno work elsewhere, I think that would be an inspired choice. I agree that Ian (and Mike) would create something really cool and special given the opportunity.
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Jeff,
I'll certainly defer to you on point number one, since you're in the business and I'm not. We weren't given a specific budget number in the original post but I'm reasonably certain that a course that sees a great deal of earth carved up will cost more than a course that sees little land moved, even if you have to go through the processes you outlined above. It may be a small savings, as you mentioned but in reality, the point I was trying to make was that the designers could do effective and interesting work with the rolling topography as opposed to having to create something that wasn't there.
I have no clue if Ian and Mike would charge a premium for their services just because of Mike's status on the Tour but I'd imagine that they'd be competitive considering the down economy.
This much I do know - a new golf course design in Canada with Mike Weir's name attached will be very easy to market out of the gates. But the key is to have a course that is good enough and entertaining enough to bring the customers back and that's where Ian's expertise comes in - I trust that his talent and passion for his craft will ensure I get the quality architecture I'm looking for.
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I too would choose Mike Clayton. In fact, I recommended Mike for a renovation job here in the states, and was pretty sad he was not considered. His work in Aus is great, and I would love to ee him get a chance here
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Your question parallels my real situation, with one notable and significant difference.
I have an option on a piece of land very similar to your hypothetical one.
The land is virgin woodland with many specimen trees, untouched for 200 years.The option is for an undetermined parcel of 300/350 acres within over 2000 thousand acres, the proximity to London surpasses your location. The soil is primarily clay and will need a sand cap and expensive drainage to guarantee play year round. The land has excellent movement and elevation change.
I have been working with this option for over 5 years and only ever considered and showed it to two architects, Tom Doak and Mark Parsinen, (Castle Stuart), and my reason for such a restricted selection list was their proven feel for the integrity of a site and their ability to enhance excellence without an overwhelming need to improve upon it.
Before you ask what is the significant difference from your hypothetical site and why is this nirvana not under construction, the answer lies in UK planning law, but that is another subject.
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I vote for Melvyn. Is there a budget for cart paths? ;D
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Well,
I would do the design of the whole clubhouse complex so that it fits around with the golf course with green building principles - have a large rainwater runoff to water the practice green that could be on part of the clubhouse roof and could have the first championship tee above the pro shop roof - Boony could work on this with me as we are Architects. A sustainable clubhouse for the 21st century.
The Golf Course - would do the layout alonside a good layout architect maybe Mr Doak of course and we could therefore give a template/area of each hole to 18 different architects on GCA forum to be further designed and detailed - could be the perfect GCA composite course. I would have the final say over the design of each hole to try and make sure it blends with the rest of the course - difficult task but possible.
Its a dream..........
Cheers
Ben
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Well, given that I have no desire to build or operate a course and that it is a risky proposition at the best of times, I would first need to be so rich that if the entire project slid into a hole it wouldn't make much difference to me. In terms of the course, as I get older I appreciate more and more the qualities of flatish golf and so I would be looking for an archie who is gonna be willing to be subtle with the land. I wouldn't want some grand statement because after100 plays it doesn't much matter. What matters is the how clever the design is given that I don't want long walks, long yardage and long climbs. Of course Doak springs to mind, but I haven't really seen what he does with a quiet property. The other guy which springs to mind is Nuzzo. Wolf Point, in a nutshell, is much of what I would consider the ideal course. The other guy whose work in pix has greatly impressed me is Clayton.
Ciao
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Well,
I would do the design of the whole clubhouse complex so that it fits around with the golf course with green building principles - have a large rainwater runoff to water the practice green that could be on part of the clubhouse roof and could have the first championship tee above the pro shop roof - Boony could work on this with me as we are Architects. A sustainable clubhouse for the 21st century.
The Golf Course - would do the layout alonside a good layout architect maybe Mr Doak of course and we could therefore give a template/area of each hole to 18 different architects on GCA forum to be further designed and detailed - could be the perfect GCA composite course. I would have the final say over the design of each hole to try and make sure it blends with the rest of the course - difficult task but possible.
Its a dream..........
Cheers
Ben
Ben,
You beat me to it on most counts there... and Sean's idea of being so rich it doesn't matter would be handy! ;D
Regardless of the site I'd certainly do the clubhouse myself, but I'd leave the exact style of the clubhouse till I've walked the site.
Assuming this site is reasonably local to me here in the Midlands then knowing Mr Stephens well, I'd find it difficult not to let him have a crack at it. If the site was further afield, I'd probably look for a local architect, but if I couldn't find one I was happy with then I'd probably also join the Tom Doak Appreciaition Society. Afterall it was reading both his Anatomy and Confidential Guides that first really got me interested in all this... If it was further afield I'd certainly ask a local building architect to help me out, to cut down on needless travelling.
I'd also open up the design of at least one hole as a competition to you lot on here?
I'd leave the design of the course to the GCA but would obviously love to have some input? I'd certainly be happier with a sub 6,000 yard course to a par of 69 than a 7,000 plus at a par 72 but it would really depend on the GCA? And I'd let the GCA know that I've always been a fan of fun green complexes, with plenty of options. So it would also have a pretty substantial practice chipping area and none of those damn "No Chipping Practice" signs! >:(
I'd also want the course, clubhouse and the surrounding land to be built and looked after as environmentally sustainably as possible. All that land out there why not double up as a nature reserve in the wilder spots. I'd certainly rather glance into the trees or sky and see a sparrowhawk, fieldfare or robin rather than some bloody housing or a hotel and leisure complex! Plus, I can keep my wife happy as she's an ecologist so she can look after that side of things. And while I'm at it, my brother would certainly be a good bet for head pro... And it might not make a great business model, but anyone from on here can play whenever they like!
Low cost, low key, low impact? A friendly, family run place? Sounds good to me? ;D
Cheers,
James
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I would choose Richard Chamberlain, on the proviso that it is a collaboration with Andrew Summerall.
It would be very cost effective and would combine experience with hidden talent :)
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Good call on Richard Chamberlain - Andrew
It would be interesting to see how his "maiden" stand alone project turns out
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The scenario is this (I think the exercise should be fun for those who choose to play)
- Real GCAs can pick themselves if they would like! Armchair GCAs cannot take a flier.
- You have a rolling site about an hour from a city that has a couple of brooks running through it but no other natural water hazards
- The site is 225 acres - rectangular in nature - you want to build an 18 hole course, range, putting green, chipping area and clubhouse
- There are a few specimen trees on the site but not too many
- The drainage is okay - the site has a mix of clay and gravel
- Your goal for the site is up to you - and that is what makes this interesting - 6k yards? 7k yards? 8k yards? Public? Semi? Private?
- You have sufficient capital to bring in any archie/team, sand cap if necessary and move a bunch of dirt if you want - but the less you spend the better (obviously) as the course/club needs to be viable financially
- What are your top three criteria for a successful course and how will they impact your archie choice?
Unfortunately, you cannot go through an RFP process - Who or what team would you choose and why?
How many archie's on GCA website have been blessed with this type of site?
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My criteria would be a course that is fun with fun greens. I would want an architect capable of producing this and also willing to put in the time on site to see the project through. In addition, while budget is no concern, I find wasting money to be ridiculous.
Therefore, I choose Mike DeVries. I've seen Mike's work on less than great sites, I've seen CC's and Doak's work on less than great sites and Mike is just as good. As much as I love Kingsley, I don't think Mike has been given the same level of sites as Doak or CC. If he can produce Kingsley on that site and Greywalls on that site, imagine if given a site like at Bandon, in the sand/chop hills, etc.
So, for my money it is DeVries; even if that means Hancock comes along.
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8) Melvyn & Associates
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This is a great thread and interesting to read.
I already know who my guy would be and the "why" is he is family and has a Top 100 in the World design.
But here is the kicker, first off I would buy more land surrounding the property...for a variety of reasons.
Secondly, I would not only hire the architect to design the course but I would give him ownership, sign him to a contract, whatever he would want, to ensure that he stays on with the club to oversee maintenance and "tweaks" in the future. I would have the upfront fee be lucrative enough the guarantee he does the job and gives his 100% attention to it and I would ensure that the ownership/salary portion of the deal is interesting and lucractive enough so that he continues to give all the neccessary attention to it.
Thirdly, it would be a private/national club, with limited local membership, that seems to lower the amount of daily play and therefore maintenance issues from overplay. And I would allow limited public play for an above market fee. However, I would ensure a GREAT experience for these local players, so they rave about the club around town.
Finally, I would have a great but "old school" clubhouse that is totally golf centric. With some nice cottages for people to stay in while visiting. And I would live on the property with my family.
And probably, I would have 3 tennis courts, 5 pools, a water park with mutiple water slides, and a few roller coasters as well. ;D
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Rob and Matt,
I have no idea what Ian and Mike Wier charge. I still get a few ops where they ask me to bring a big name pro, and so far, none seems to have grasped the reality of the economy. Of course, I take the preliminary offer to the owner and its turned down immediately so I don't know what they would negotiate down to.
I did have one pro me call on a proposal and sheepishly offer a fee under $100K for a few site visits that would have been worth it architecturally (which is rare) but probably not marketing wise.
I won't thread jack and its been discussed before whether the public shows up to play the newest course by XXX the famous tour pro. As far as I can tell, it does get some people out there to look, but in reality, location, price, amenities, etc. end up drivin the buying decision. The legitimacy of how much value a pro brings marketing wise is hotly debated in some circles, but its hard to quantify with facts and is more emotional. (i.e., getting the extra couple of hundred K loan for the owner to be able to sniff some jocks used to be sexy and easy) I wonder if the next generation of bankers will scutinize those development line items for the cost/value ratio.
Sorry for the detour, back to business.
Matt,
The key element is stripping and removing the topsoil as far as cost goes. There are some sites (although this one didn't sound like it from its description) where the topsoil is deep enough that you can do some subtle shaping without stripping the topsoil. In Texas, the black clay isn't that much different than the top six inches and we don't always worry about topsoil in those cases.
Where there is a real topsoil horizon, I have generally gone for fewer areas of disturbance, like cutting through a hill for vision, but once I spend the money to remove the topsoil, then I figure I may as well borrow whatever I need to reduce the overall effect on the cost of that topsoil, i.e., cut deeper.
My training was to only strip where necessary, but in the last decade, I have run across more and more contractors who figure it will all get shaped anyway and strip all the topsoil on a fw with only partial grading. I think they are somewhat justified because once you shape a little bit of fw, it often looks odd to stop so its better to keep adding those subtle rolls you are talking about.
One example from last year is the 17th at Firekeeper. It drained but had a pretty flat cross slope that was not far enough below the sight line and it looked awkward from the tee. We cut a gentle swale just in front of the forward tee to create a small visual valley, but the constant slope meant that we just transferred the problem slightly up the hill and it didn't look any better. We took a hole not meant for any shaping and ended up gently wobbling it all the way up.
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The scenario is this (I think the exercise should be fun for those who choose to play)
- Real GCAs can pick themselves if they would like! Armchair GCAs cannot take a flier.
- You have a rolling site about an hour from a city that has a couple of brooks running through it but no other natural water hazards
- The site is 225 acres - rectangular in nature - you want to build an 18 hole course, range, putting green, chipping area and clubhouse
- There are a few specimen trees on the site but not too many
- The drainage is okay - the site has a mix of clay and gravel
- Your goal for the site is up to you - and that is what makes this interesting - 6k yards? 7k yards? 8k yards? Public? Semi? Private?
- You have sufficient capital to bring in any archie/team, sand cap if necessary and move a bunch of dirt if you want - but the less you spend the better (obviously) as the course/club needs to be viable financially
- What are your top three criteria for a successful course and how will they impact your archie choice?
Unfortunately, you cannot go through an RFP process - Who or what team would you choose and why?
Firstly at 60 minutes from the city its a big NO from me, in the UK that will mean almost certain bankruptcy. I think only COMMERCIAL. Assuming its 20 minutes away I would look at 36 holes with a practice facility. Commercially I would spend around £2,000,000 on the golf construction building the greens to USGA spec and high quaity tees using the same rootzone, I would aso rootzone the green approaches. I would shape the land either by importing inert landfill which may generate the £2,000,000 construction costs or by cutting and filling to create interesting features like an inland links. I would have a car park for 250 cars and a clubhouse of under 10,000 sq feet that catered for dining up to 120 but with the ability to have smaller rooms partioned into 30s. A number of smaller bar areas leading to a patio facing both the sun and the 18th green with water guarding the green, thats what the majority of people want to watch at the end of their day.
The golf courses I would design myself with plenty of water feeding into a main ake to recycle the water back onto the courses with full fairway irrigation. I would try to utilise all natural features and plant for the future. I would be looking for 1 course to be about 7100 yards from the championship tees but about 6000 yards from the general play tees and about 6600 from the members medal tees. The second course I would have ranging between about 6000 and 6300 yards. Both courses would be of good equal standard with a green fee priced at $50 and membership would be $100 per month, no forced dues for anything. I would have buggy tracks around tees and both courses would have their 9th and 18th greens adjacent.
I have written this before I have read another thread, I expect I know that the others will say but I doubt they will be like this.
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Kelly,
I was going to post something similar about a rustic clubhouse, golf only, etc. I might add a small locker room ONLY to have those Pine Valley type shower heads!
Adrian,
I was also thinking whiile drifting off to sleep about course length. My take is that if the US Open is played at 74-7600 yards then my course could be within 3-5% of that length and be good enough for anyone likely to show up to play, so max length would be 2-300 yards less than that or 72something yards. I would hide those back tees as thourogly as I could and also have more tees, well separated so others didn't come into view. My shortest tees might be just over 4000 yards so women and juniors could play the course in 36 well played long shots.
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Rob
Did you know that there was an RFQ due today at the city of Laredo?
Tomorrow they are opening the Statement of Qualifications.
If someone wanted to learn about the business or architecture - they should go read them.
How many pages was your Jeff?
I'll pick my team for Rob's project.
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Plan A
Jeff Brauer of course! ;)
Plan B
If he wasn't available, I would post a topo map of the property and hold a GCA.com event to see who could come up with the best routing. Then after carefully reviewing all of the entires, I would tell everyone to piss off and give the job to Mrs. Huckaby.
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Noted - Mike Benham would rather use the 225 acres as a personal urinal than a golf course - that is a fantastic legacy :)
I would let you, Jeff and Doak all irrigated the land.
And I would have comfort knowing that all my capital is still earning me money as the likely hood of this project being profitable in the near future is laughable.
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Designer, me of course -think of all the money I would save. ;D If I could, I would collaborate with Gil Hanse (I think he is great at thinking outside the box plus at 6'5" we'd see things eye-tp-eye) and get Jeff Bradley to do the bunkers. I would do the shaping and tractor work. The course would be a core course.
No dirt would be moved except for 300' around greens, bunkers, and tees. All would be cut/fill with no hauling. Only a small finish dozer, track hoe, Mini-hoe, track skid load and a tractor would be used to build it.
Greens Sand - not USGA) would be Pebble Beach small but with ample undualting surrounds.
Bunkers would not apologize for being hazards, small and deep but with open fronts that would suck balls in.
Tees - 8 small tees for a 4 -tee system to provide day-to-day variety and to allow for the ones not in use to rest.
Fairways would be very wide (merging when adjacent) and have the bunkers internal rather than along side.
Drainage, drainge, and drainage. Did I mention drainage?
Irrigation resevoir at the low end of the creek so I could draw free creek water as opposed to drilling well. Dual heads around greens.
Ideally, I would like to get the 3rd hole back to the clubhouse for late day practice rounds.
A clubhouse compound of small, individual, use specific buildings rather than one mongo building. Gravel parking lot.
I would build several houses for supt, pro and some multifamily/dorms for staff workers. This subsidized housing would be part of the compensation package.
With 225 acres, I would also try to tuck a couple of housing pods around the perimeter - off the courseto offset costs.
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As far as I am concerned, Hanse can cover it all from low end to high end. Hanse is your man.
Another choice who's work I have not had the chance to see, but looks very appealing is Kelly Blake Moran.
What do you say everyone? Let's bring that right winger to the left coast and give him an education. ;)
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Designer, me of course -think of all the money I would save. ;D If I could, I would collaborate with Gil Hanse (I think he is great at thinking outside the box plus at 6'5" we'd see things eye-tp-eye) and get Jeff Bradley to do the bunkers. I would do the shaping and tractor work. The course would be a core course.
No dirt would be moved except for 300' around greens, bunkers, and tees. All would be cut/fill with no hauling. Only a small finish dozer, track hoe, Mini-hoe, track skid load and a tractor would be used to build it.
Greens Sand - not USGA) would be Pebble Beach small but with ample undualting surrounds.
Bunkers would not apologize for being hazards, small and deep but with open fronts that would suck balls in.
Tees - 8 small tees for a 4 -tee system to provide day-to-day variety and to allow for the ones not in use to rest.
Fairways would be very wide (merging when adjacent) and have the bunkers internal rather than along side.
Drainage, drainge, and drainage. Did I mention drainage?
Irrigation resevoir at the low end of the creek so I could draw free creek water as opposed to drilling well. Dual heads around greens.
Ideally, I would like to get the 3rd hole back to the clubhouse for late day practice rounds.
A clubhouse compound of small, individual, use specific buildings rather than one mongo building. Gravel parking lot.
I would build several houses for supt, pro and some multifamily/dorms for staff workers. This subsidized housing would be part of the compensation package.
With 225 acres, I would also try to tuck a couple of housing pods around the perimeter - off the courseto offset costs.
This is a nice vision Tim. Cheers to seeing it happen!
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Eric: thanks, hopefully some day ;D
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If I had my own piece of super awesome land (as the description states) I personally can't imagine NOT doing alot of the design and "top level" decisions. However understanding my limits of knowledge on the subject, I would ask for a designers help.
Who? None of the people already mentioned are bad choices, and all would do a fine job, but how could you go wrong (today) with a Tom Doak or Bill Coore? Or it may be cool to ask someone like JC Urbina to work on the project.
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I'd do it myself with the help of Joe Hancock and we'd shock the world.
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Mike Devries. Just a cooler of beer and a portajohn.....Oh wait a minute, that's been done already.... 8)
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I'd do it myself with the help of Joe Hancock and we'd shock the world.
Be afraid, be very afraid.
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I would probably pick one of the three that I have got to know off this site the best.
Mike DeVries, Tim Liddy or Tripp Davis. All have different styles, so maybe a compilation by the three of them would be the best...
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I'd do it myself with the help of Joe Hancock and we'd shock the world.
...whodathunk that the Volunteer State would be getting the Joe Hancock Trail?
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I'm surprised to not see the name Hawtree mentioned. After all, he is building the best golf course in the history of the world.
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I'm surprised to not see the name Hawtree mentioned. After all, he is building the best golf course in the history of the world.
LOL
Presumably that is the one that is better than Castle Stuart. Sorry to break it to you and the owner, but the course will have ponds! No course with ponds can be the best golf course in the history of the world! See quote below.
;D
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To answer the original question:
I'd design it myself. Buy the equipment needed to do the earth working and do the whole deal myself. Yeah, it'd be screwed up, but I'd just tinker until I got what I wanted. Private club for myself and invited guests only. I have no idea how long the course would be, but it would be what I like in a course, might be 5500, might be 8500, I don't really care. My clubhouse would be a 16'x24' barn with just enough room for a grill, a fridge and some chairs (got to cut expenditures you know).
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If I'm involved, will Jeff B. be forever angry at me?
Even still...I'm in.
:)
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Joe,
I ain't angry with anybody. Certainly not you.
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How about the two Tommy's in a one of a kind collaboration ( Naccarato - Paul Design)
with Kelly's clubhouse for me!
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Pat,
Thanks for the thought.
Working in the field Designing and Building courses for 27 years.
Troy Russell once handed me some keys for the construction trailer that he thoughtfully set up at Pacific Dunes prior to construction. He told me it had a drawing table and desk. I said no need for those keys I will never be in that trailer. The Construction truck was my office loaded with Paint cans, Flags and a Level. The stereo was my intercom. Many discussions about golf and life in general in the front seat of a Wagoner.
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I'd hire me.
If not me, somebody with a more varied background, (maybe Brauer) an appropriate fee, (fill in the blank) a better staff, (impossible)and a clear vision (not a guess) of the finished product. Don't need a player, an owner consultant wannabe, or a rookie.
Lester
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I'd hire you too, Lester, but then you'd probably get pissed after a while because I talk too much.
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It depends on the budget! We need more facts. My first thought is always Doak, although Strantz would have gotten first dibs were he alive. Look at the great job he did with nothing for land at Texas Tech. Would the facility be able to afford him is the question.
After that, it's wide open, there are countless goof choices. I'd have to walk the property and also consider the location.
What are you trying to build is the next question...if it's me, I'd build New Macdonald so after Doak I guess would be Bahto then Hanse for that.
But for great daily fees/munis Engh, Brauer, Spann, and Moran are all good choices, as is Lester George.
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Tom,
I may not tire of the talking as soon as would suspect. I just wonder if either one of us would hear the other.
Jay,
If for new MacDonald, I would still hire me. Seeing how the next "new" MacDonald client has hired me and the "restored" MacDonald client just had his course chosen for a PGA Tour event hired me, I'd go with me. All do respect to others.
Lester
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;D :D ;)
Lester , a true Virginian , they would have been gunslingers in the old west. I don 't know about as my first choice as architect but sure as hell you wouldn 't mind him taking the last shot.. .
His clinic about the Greenbriar at TEP's barn party was really excellent. Interesting , historical and informative , enjoyed it immensely
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I'm going with Mike Young
1 He knows how to have fun.
2 Not afraid to stray from public opinion.
3 Has 41 courses under his belt (as well as black undies)
4 In touch with the every day golfer that will be providing the revenue.
5 Doesn't have a preconcieved repetitive style.
6 Likes Bar-B-Que
7 Works within the budget
8 Listens
9 Has great football seats
10 Knows how to have fun
Anthony
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Unlimited budget I would hire Byron Bell ;D
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I'd hire someone to convince me to NOT build a course and go completely broke....seems to be the trend.
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I should have said - "Pretend that you are crazy enough to build a course in the current economic environment . . . " - just to get some of the "debbie downers" ;D to chime in.
Jay - Per the original post - you have enough budget to hire whoever you want and move dirt, sand cap or whatever as you see fit. It's your world on this one.
It is when reading threads like this one that I wish I had a broader experience of courses by GCAs on the site - I have yet to play anything by KBM, Jeff B, Lester, Mike Nuzzo, or Mike DeVries, Mike Clayton - even Hanse.
I have been fortunate enough to play at Bandon so I have experienced C&C, Kidd, Doak and Urbina.
I really hope that all of the archies on GCA.com who have not had a chance get an opportunity to produce something that will be seen by many (how I wish Wolf Point was more accessible so we could see Nuzzo and Don M's hard work there).
I also hope that Jim Urbina has an opportunity to step out on his own in the near future and show the world his skillz. No doubt the result will be very impressive and a lot of fun to play.
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Shaper...there is a Canadian dude named Blane Harrison who has done some nice shaping in upstate New York.
Architect...Scott Witter...He's a Bostonian now living in Lockport, NY, and has contributed for a long while to GCA (although not much of late.)
Hazards...Mark Fine...He wrote a book on them, for chrissake!
It all goes for naught if the 225-acre property is fat and gristle.
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I'll do it myself, have Dan Hixson's doggie Milo consult and Slaggy run some equipment.
Why? Because it'd be fun as hell!!!
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Before you all say "I'd do it myself with a bit of help"-please visit Rich Harvest, Merit Club, Erin Hills etc. The last thing we need is more courses by guys who think they know a thing or two who've never lifted a shovel in their life....
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Before you all say "I'd do it myself with a bit of help"-please visit Rich Harvest, Merit Club, Erin Hills etc. The last thing we need is more courses by guys who think they know a thing or two who've never lifted a shovel in their life....
Nice buzzkill, Jud. Some of us HAVE lifted shovels however...even rakes.
Shoot, I even operate heavy equipment.
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Before you all say "I'd do it myself with a bit of help"-please visit Rich Harvest, Merit Club, Erin Hills etc. The last thing we need is more courses by guys who think they know a thing or two who've never lifted a shovel in their life....
Nice buzzkill, Jud. Some of us HAVE lifted shovels however...even rakes.
Shoot, I even operate heavy equipment.
Then you qualify! Just referring to the title of the original post, i.e. "archie". Not trying to ruin the fantasy gca session, just seen too many real world examples of a little bit of knowledge being dangerous....
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None of you guys got it right.
I'd hire Donald Trump. He'd design the #1 course in the world ;D
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Kurt Bowman, I'm poor and he would fit my budget better than most.
Plus I argue well and could get my way and design half the course myself.
Kurt - I love ya buddy.
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I would also choose myself... which asks the question: can you call yourself a golf course architect just because you haven't been given the chance to design one, even though you know you can accomplish it. I would call upon the architects and shapers I've met over the years for consults.
I'd shoot for a semi-private club, because I like the variety it brings. I'd focus my construction money on drainage and irrigation... playability is the most important. As far as design is concerned, make sure the every club, every shot is used during around.... accomplish that with elevation changes and uneven lies.
Once the course is opened, focus on value and service.
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I always thought if I had the money or resources I'd like to do it myself.
But being on this website has defintly taught me that doing it right and being able to get it right is a tooonn tougher than it looks. I'd probably do something OK, but it would be nowhere good or even great or epic that I would want.
GCA.com has clearly smashed that pipe dream that I had for several years. :'( :'( :'(
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Kalen...
if it is your land and you've got plenty of money and you want to do it...why not make it a growing/learning experience that can last for your entire life?
I think Pete and Alice's first course was in Indiana(?) and they said they didn't do a good job...BUT they learned a ton from that experience and now look at them.
So, if you have that dream...do it...how cool would that be?
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Kalen...
if it is your land and you've got plenty of money and you want to do it...why not make it a growing/learning experience that can last for your entire life?
I think Pete and Alice's first course was in Indiana(?) and they said they didn't do a good job...BUT they learned a ton from that experience and now look at them.
So, if you have that dream...do it...how cool would that be?
Mac,
I get what ur saying here, but coming from where I sit, I see it as a %'s game. There is a lot of golf courses out there, most of which we as GCA'ers would label as absolute mediocre crap. So if only a small % of courses were actually done right, and only a small % of actual archies actually got it right...it makes me accutely aware of my limitations. Sure I'd like to think I was one of those teeny minorities who could get it done and build something epic. But in the end I doubt it will result in nothing much more than "better than average, but nothing special"
I still have self belief, just also realize we can't all be rock-star archies with hoards of chicks following em from course to course!! ;D
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Kalen...
if it is your land and you've got plenty of money and you want to do it...why not make it a growing/learning experience that can last for your entire life?
I think Pete and Alice's first course was in Indiana(?) and they said they didn't do a good job...BUT they learned a ton from that experience and now look at them.
So, if you have that dream...do it...how cool would that be?
Fine to look at them, but what about looking at that first course? In what shape is it? Kalen will look fine, years after the course is built, but how will the course look?
That said, I like a romantic and a dreamer (being a teacher and all), so cut down the corn and build that field of dreams.
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Ronald...
That is what I am talking about. If it is someone's dream...do it. Hole by hole...little by little...if you don't like aspects of it, change it over time until you've got it perfect.
It sounds good to me!