Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Joe Bausch on December 19, 2009, 12:52:23 AM
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As I've written about here previously, this 1917 article further supports that Hugh Wilson deserves more credit for the Bay course at Seaview:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2786/4196624231_fd7a1243ea_o.jpg)
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Joe
A very interesting article - do you know when the Seaview project began and if Wilson was involved from the beginning. I recall in one of his letters to Piper & Oakley (the first one dealing with Seaview I believe) Wilson was asking for some expert help with drainage. He says something about 'they' really messed up the building of dikes, or whatever, in attempt to drain some of the land intended for the golf course. He gives the impression he was fixing the mistakes of others.
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Joe,
Didn't Ron Whitten write an article for GD a few years ago on this topic? I think it was mentioned and linked in another Seaview thread. It's no longer available online. Does Seaview have a copy?
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Joe
A very interesting article - do you know when the Seaview project began and if Wilson was involved from the beginning. I recall in one of his letters to Piper & Oakley (the first one dealing with Seaview I believe) Wilson was asking for some expert help with drainage. He says something about 'they' really messed up the building of dikes, or whatever, in attempt to drain some of the land intended for the golf course. He gives the impression he was fixing the mistakes of others.
I'm away from my files right now (and I'm not heading into work with snow coming down like mad!), but I do know that Joe Bunker in June 1914 talked about the course being ready to open soon. I may have earlier mentions, perhaps as early as 1913, but I will update later.
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Joe,
Didn't Ron Whitten write an article for GD a few years ago on this topic? I think it was mentioned and linked in another Seaview thread. It's no longer available online. Does Seaview have a copy?
Yes, Steve, I remember you bringing up this topic in the previous Seaview thread. Whitten did do some article but I do not have a link to it nor do I have a copy of it. If somebody out there does have it, can they post it?
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Joe,
Thanks for posting the article. I guess it is consistent with the understanding I had from the informative threads on Seaview from a year or so ago, although wasn't someone arguing that Ross did not really do much at all in the way of anything? Or maybe I misremember? It sounds like, from the author's perspective at least, that the new bunkering by Ross substantially altered the course from a playability perspective; ("those who have not played the Seaview course in two years would scarcely recognize it.")
I don't want to start a fight or conflict, but I have a recollection of some of the early reports about Seaview as being less than positive. Did they bring in Ross because of dissatisfaction with the coursel, or for some other reason? Or perhaps I should just ask why do you suppose they brought him in . . . I sounds like it must have been 1915 when he set out the bunkers, which was at the very beginning.
Some random questions for you or anyone:
1. Any ideas on who "Peter Putter" was? Seems to have been from the Philly area.
2. Will you share the actual date and name of the publication?
3. I can't quite make out the bottom of the first column. It seems to be saying that the 17th was a dogleg, but people were playing it by driving into the 18th fairway; someone got hit, and so they made drives from the 15th tee out of bounds? A typo maybe? Any ideas on what hole was causing the problem, the 15th or 17th? You guys have an original routing or scorecard or something, don't you?
4. Any ideas of who did or supervised the actual construction work for the Ross bunkers?
5. I'm confused as to the timing. Was the course open for the two years between the time Ross marked the bunkers and the time of the article, or was it closed at some point?
6. The article mentions that a few greens with clover had been dug up and re-turfed. (Perhaps it is a jump, but does this imply that Hugh Wilson's involvement ended pretty early? Hard to imagine the greens would have gotten away from him.) I assume that the greens themselves were not altered except for the turf? Is this consistent with your understanding?
Sorry for all the questions. Not trying to create a research agenda for you, but if you have the answers handy, I'd appreciate you relaying the information.
Thanks again.
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TM, this is from September 14, 1913 issue of the Public Ledger. It was part of an earlier Seaview thread I started!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3121/2332385750_d8bf1cb291_b.jpg)
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I was able to relocate the original routing, which was published in the Philly Inky (Oct 18, 1914). The numbering of holes has since changed (I believe the original 17th is the current 10th; and it does play as a bit of a dogleg left. And I think that is a typo in the article where it says at the end the 15th hole.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4041/4198160736_26f6b7009a_o.jpg)
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Thanks Joe,
It looks like the 13th was very short. Do you know the distance? Can you make out the writing around the 13th green?
Also, any ideas what is up with the extra dashed line which runs diagonally from near the 12th green to near the 10th green? Is it dashes and dots? Is there some sort of feature such as a ditch or stream there?
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Thanks Joe,
It looks like the 13th was very short. Do you know the distance? Can you make out the writing around the 13th green?
Also, any ideas what is up with the extra dashed line which runs diagonally from near the 12th green to near the 10th green? Is it dashes and dots? Is there some sort of feature such as a ditch or stream there?
David,
To this day, 13 is a 110 yard hole.
The dashed line you reference is either a tree line, fence line or some sort of other property line. I forget the specific feature but you can still see the remnants of the old property line there.
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Thanks Kyle.
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It appears that the timeline around Seaview indicates the course was laid out and construction started sometime in the first half of 1913.
The course opened to member play in early summer 1914, although the club itself did not formally open until January 1915 due to the fact that Clarence Geist was sick with "the grip" for many months in the latter half of 1914.
This brief article from April 28, 1914 gives an update on things;
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4271842762_3d1b50db73.jpg)
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When did Wilson first become involved with the Seaview project?
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When did Wilson first become involved with the Seaview project?
We don't know yet. We were scheduled to go down to Atlantic County Historical Society earlier this winter but a major snowstorm struck and we haven't been able to get back down.
I don't think the March 1914 letter to P&O was his entree to the project. I do know that there were accounts about reclaiming materials from the bay that was the context of that letter, and that the article I posted yesterday referred to, but the course opened that summer and all the early accounts credited Wilson with the design.
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When did the project begin?
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I don't know directly from Seaview when the Bay course project began but it does appear Wilson was involved in it from the beginning as he's been credited with its design in a number of contemporaneous local newspaper reports.
From Wilson himself all I'm aware of are the P&O letters which only involve the agronomy of Seaview other than that correspondence in March 1914 when he asks P&O if they can recommend someone from the US Government to consult on marshland problems at Seaview. Wilson did stay involved with the agronomy of Seaview at least because he does mention Seaview and the potential acquisition of some of the best bent grass (from P&O and others) for a number of years (at least up until 1920) and he does continue to ask P&O to come up to Philly to go over Seaview as well at Merion, Sunnybrook and Pine Valley (which they do from time to time).
However, there's another interesting set of circumstances that probably puts Wilson at Seaview in the spring of 1913, and that has to do with at least one report from Tillinghast that Colt is to visit Seaview at that time. That would make sense since that was the time Colt spent at least a week with Crump at Pine Valley (late May/early June 1913).
The other interesting circumstance is that Colt wrote Wilson in the early 1920s mentioning it had been so long since they saw one another that he hoped H.I.W. remembered him. At the end of that letter Colt asked Wilson to remember Mrs Colt to Mrs Wilson. That would suggest to me that when Colt was around Philadelphia at that time in 1913 he and Mrs Colt probably stayed with the Wilsons (apparently ship manifest lists show Mrs Colt traveling to America with Harry in 1913). That isn't unusual as Wilson was always asking Piper and Oakley to stay at his place when they were in Philly.
Since Colt apparently only came to North America 3-4 times not to return again after 1914 and since Wilson's only documented trip abroad seems to have been 1912 and not with Mrs Wilson, that particular time in the spring of 1913 in and around Philadelphia appears to have been the only time Mrs Colt and Mrs Wilson had an opportunity to meet and get to know one another.
Why did Colt write Wilson after all those years? He does give at least one reason but there may be other reasons that unfortunately will probably never get beyond a certain amount of speculation.
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Mrs. Colt did travel to the US with Harry. There are reports the Colt visited PV, Merion and Seaview on that visit. On that same trip Colt collaborated with HH Barker in Chicago (prior to coming to Philadelphia).
Wilson wrote to P&O about Seaview prior to March 1914, and in that letter he gives the impression he had inherited a mess.
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A side note---this time on Clarence Geist.
Geist was seemingly a fairly to massively controversial character and he apparently got more controversial as time went on, particularly in his later Boca Raton years. He was a big-time player in business for sure though----eg apparently Geist ended up owning more utilities stock than any other single American.
He lived in a gigantic mansion that is today Notre Dame (etc) school for girls that isn't more than about three miles (as the crow flies) from Merion. Geist was also a regular at Atlantic City G.C. in the winter probably with Crump and the boys and the rumor goes that he got pissed at having to wait on the first tee and that was his inspiration to create the massive Seaview complex and courses.
His gigantic mansion was right across the street from what is today Overbrook GC (McGovern, early 1950s) and when Overbrook moved to that site they bought the massive house on the large property from Mrs Geist Ely, Geist's daughter who had been given the place and massive house across the street as a wedding present (I got all this from Geist's grandson, Geist Ely, himself a massively controversial figure (but always a bundle of laughs), now sadly departed).
William Flynn and Clarence Geist also became very close personal friends (this from Flynn's still living daughter). So it would appear that Clarence Geist and Hugh Wilson were apparently pretty close friends from way back then and for that reason alone it makes a lot of sense that Geist would have turned to Wilson in the early teens to design Seaview as he turned to Flynn about 15 years later to design the massive Boca Raton project as well as the second course at Seaview.
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“Wilson wrote to P&O about Seaview prior to March 1914, and in that letter he gives the impression he had inherited a mess.”
No, the very first time Wilson wrote P&O (Oakley actually) about Seaview was on March 16, 1914, and he didn’t give them any impression that he had inherited a mess. Matter of fact, it doesn’t even appear that the land Wilson was talking about at Seaview was part of the Bay course at that time because it appears by 1914 the course was built and into its initial “grow in” phase (It was scheduled to open for play in the fall of 1914 and generally in those days those men would give a course a year to grow in, as Wilson had with Merion East two years previous).
This is what Wilson actually said to Oakley about Seaview in that March 16th 1914 letter (his first mention to them about Seaview) and frankly it doesn’t even necessarily appear it had to do with the subject of golf course architecture at all----basically just salt water marsh reclamation.
“March 16, 1914
Dear Mr. Oakley:-
A friend of mine, Mr. C. H. Giest, is building a golf course near Atlantic City and there are from 30 to 50 acres of marsh land which he wishes to reclaim. He has tried to do some of this work under the advice of the local people and it has been a dismal failure. What he wants to get is an expert in this line of work. Is there any one in the Government employ or outside of it who could come up and tell him how to do it? He is perfectly willing to pay anything that is right for this and is very anxious to get a thoroughly good man who has experience in the salt water marshes.”
One logical reason Geist may've wanted to do between 30-50 acres of salt water marsh reclamation was to prevent or alleviate some real problems with mosquitoes and insects which certainly wouldn't have been the last time that sort of thing created huge problems on a golf course on sites like Seaview's Bay course in that particular area (or Long Island).
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With fear and trepidation at potentially interrupting what sounds like an actual conversation, if not a lovefest between Tom and Tom ;), I would venture that the following article hints at some of what was going on with "reclamation", that apparently had to be abandoned but was still being considered as having promise.
I don't know if Geist originally wanted to build more holes out by the bay, but it might be telling that the 2nd course actually was built on the far side of the clubhouse, in the woods away from the bay.
In any case, the timeline Tom P. mentions is correct...the first course (with the same routing as today's "Bay" course with slight renumbering) was open to member play by early summer 1914, with an officlal club opening in January 1915.
In April/May of 1915, Clarence Geist partnered with Hugh Wilson to play Francis Ouimet (and I forget who) in a match on the course. EDIT*** - Wilson paired with Ouimet in a match against Clarence Geist and the new pro at Seaview, Wilfred Reid.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3417/3185009775_8465811425_b.jpg)
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I don't know directly from Seaview when the Bay course project began but it does appear Wilson was involved in it from the beginning as he's been credited with its design in a number of contemporaneous local newspaper reports.
Speaking of newspaper reports does anyone know what is the earliest mention of Wilson's involvement at Seaview?
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Tom MacWood,
The earliest one I've seen was found by Joe Bausch, written by William Evans in the Philly Public Ledger, 10/12/13.
Here's the pertinent part;
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3114/3153151393_8210e69b66.jpg?v=0)
Here's one from July 1914 Philadelphia Record
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Seaview/07261914_PhilaRecord_p1.jpg)
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Seaview/07261914_PhilaRecord_p2.jpg)
Tom Paul,
Evidently there was a letter prior...you posted this on a Seaview thread I started last year;
Mike and Joe:
Here's Wilson's first letter to Russell Oakley on the Seaview project:
R.A. Oakley
U.S. Dept of Agriculture
Washington, D.C. Novemeber 21, 1913
Dear Mr. Oakley--
I am very much interested in the golf course at Atlantic City where five of the holes are on salt meadows. The have drained the meadows and put in a sluice gate and have pumped in sand for the formation of some of the greens. In pumping in the sand they have pumped in a great deal of mud over the marsh and made a pretty bad mess of it. They have diked the marsh and put in a sluice gate but it does not seem to dry out very well. They are anxious to get an expert to come down and go over the ground with them and tell them what they ought to do and what can be done. Is there anyone you can tell me about who really knows something of this kind of work? It is not a question of cost, as they are perfectly willing to pay them any reasonable sum for the work.
I asked them to send you some of the sod or peat by express so that you could look over it and see if it would not be very useful in treating the sandy soil as top dressing. At present they are piling it up in mounds and covering it with lime, expecting to let it stay there all winter and then mix it up with some soil in order to sweeten it. Do you think that it will be in shape to use next spring of will it have to stand longer before the salt is out of it and it is thoroughly purified?
Very Truly Yours,
Hugh I. Wilson
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October 12, 1913? Are you sure? Isn't 10.12.1914 more likely?
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October 12, 1913? Are you sure? Isn't 10.12.1914 more likely?
Tom,
I'll doublecheck. I copied what was written on the old thread.
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October 12, 1913? Are you sure? Isn't 10.12.1914 more likely?
Tom,
I'll doublecheck. I copied what was written on the old thread.
And I'll check my files in the morning. I could have mistyped the year.
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October 12, 1913? Are you sure? Isn't 10.12.1914 more likely?
Tom,
I'm 99.9% certain that the article was 1913, as the course was already open for member play early summer 1914, and a grand opening with Jerry Travers and other top players was held January 1915.
If the article was from October 1914, the course would have already been open, the clubhouse already built, and the projected date for course and clubhouse opening of May 1915 would have made no sense.
EDIT*** Tom, this Washington Post article shows the course was already open and being played in summer 1914.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/3153974624_7fe151c593.jpg?v=0)
In my last year's thread about Seaview, which compared the work that WIlson and Ross did respectively, Joe Bausch also posted the following;
I don't know exactly when Seaview was conceived, but I have a Sept 1913 article indicating they were rushing to complete the construction to be ready for an opening in 1914. The formal opening did not occur until Jan 1915. Here are a couple of neat full pages from the January 17, 1915 edition of the Public Ledger documenting the big event:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Seaview/01171915Ledger_p1.jpg)
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Seaview/01171915Ledger_p2.jpg)
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MikeC:
Regarding your Post #21, you're right---Wilson did first mention Seaview to P&O in a Nov. 21, 1913 letter. Well, don't I feel like a Silly Rabbit and to think I posted that letter myself on a thread of yours over a year ago?! I just checked back in my files and I guess I just missed it today (I've actually been going through the agronomy files for the last few days looking for evidence of something else entirely). I've got so much stuff in this office and on my computer I guess it overwhelms me from time to time.
Not to even mention the fact that one has to constantly deal with all the residual implication crap about Wilson and his Philadelphia kith at least one constantly throws on here. It gets confusing sometimes in a streaming conversation on here ;) to separate the wheat from the chaff I guess. Sometimes this DG feels like an ongoing catechism.
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~
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Tom MacWood,
Thanks for producing Wilson's original letter.
It makes it easier than trying to retype or copy and paste from Tom P.'s post (see above) from about a year ago.
Now that we've taught you how to post pictures, we need to teach Tom next, don't you think? ;) ;D
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...and about whiteout.
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".......and about whiteout."
Mike Cirba:
Apparently that remark is supposed to imply I purposely distort history and historical documents!
I'm sorry I don't know how to post actual documents so that one I took the time to transcribe. Shame on me! I'll try not to do that again. Or perhaps a better and more efficient policy would be if critics like that dude would just take the time to do the research himself like actually establishing personal relationships with clubs and going to them instead of constantly asking me to do it for him. ;)
Do you want to have a good and productive conversation on this subject Mike? If so I suggest we do it without even acknowledging the poster of Reply #29 henceforth.
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Here is the first mention of the project I've been able to find; it is from April 1913 in American Golfer. You combine this with Mike's article from the Washington Post that said construction began a little more than a year ago, and the article that stated Colt visited the site in May or June, and I think it is safe to conclude the course was staked out in the spring or early summer of 1913.
I've also noticed two or three articles that compare Seaview to GCGC; from what I understand Geist was an admirer of GCGC. After visiting the modernized GCGC he had a replica of the famous 12th hole @ GCGC incorporated at Whitemarsh. Has anyone been able to discover who carried out that work?
I believe there may be some kind of connection between Geist and Travis. Travis played in a number of the winter and spring events at Atlantic City, where Geist was very active too. Travis's associate Barker overhauled AC in 1909-10. Travis was also a regular at Palm Beach CC where Geist was prominent. HH Barker designed the new Palm Beach CC. Geist was the president of Whitemarsh and Seaview, and may have been the president of Palm Beach, although I'm not sure. At one time their was a Geist Cup, which involved three stages, one each at Whitemarsh, Seaview and Palm Beach.
The first greenkeeper at Seaview - William Connellan - was the greenkeeper at GCGC for a period around 1910.
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Tom,
I thought that's where you might be going, but I have to ask you...how did Colt screw up the bunkering so badly that Ross had to come in and fix them??! ;) ;D
Seriously, Tom...I'd like to explore more about the Colt visit in 1913 because we know he came to both Merion and Seaview and if there is anything documented beyond the PV parts I'm sure it will turn up. Perhaps a visit to Atlantic City as we had planned will unearth more information on the beginning of Seaview and when Wilson specifically got assigned, as well as any Colt role.
Still, there doesn't seem to be much there at present. Even Colt, who's 1922 pamphlet you reproduced last night seems to fairly liberallly claim authorship of courses where their input is sketchy, doesn't claim any invovlement with Seaview. And certainly Geist was no shrinking violet when it came to self-promotion; if he had secured a design from Europe's greatest architect of the time I'm pretty sure he would have trumpeted it. After all, he did promote the fact that Ross was coming to do bunkering, even if the thread I posted last year shows clearly that most of what Ross suggested was never implemented on the ground, probably because of WWI and waning interest and diminishing funds.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38042.0/
I can tell you it wasn't ideal land, even if Geist liked the view. Colt might not have wanted to get "bogged down" so to speak, on this foray to the US shores.
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Mike
The C&A pamphlet was printed in July 1924, and to say he was claiming authorship is unfair imo. Those were a list of courses he either designed or re-designed or advised. I've been studying Colt for a long time and he was quite detailed and diligent about the courses he listed.
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Mike
The C&A pamphlet was printed in July 1924, and to say he was claiming authorship is unfair imo. Those were a list of courses he either designed or re-designed or advised. I've been studying Colt for a long time and he was quite detailed and diligent about the courses he listed.
Tom,
If Colt was very detailed and diligent about his course listings, then why would you suspect or suggest that Colt had any involvement with Seaview, a course he never listed?
Put another way, you've now had Wilson's Piper and Oakley letters for many months and I'm sure you read them through and through. Does Wilson seem like the type of fellow who would be looking for self-promotion, or who would have taken undue credit when local papers for the next decade called hiim things like "the genius behind the two courses at Merion" and otherwise gave him clear architectural authorship for both courses at Merion as well as Seaview?
To me, he seemed very self-effacing. I think he would have written a letter to the editor correcting things, saying, "all I did was help to build the golf course that Mr. Colt, or Mr. Macdonald graciously and thoughtfully planned for our club", , don't you?
He certainly greatly respected both men, and I'm also sure he hung onto every word of advice from them, but at a time when being an amateur architect meant possibly losing your cherished amateur status, I'm pretty sure Hugh Wilson wasn't seeking the architectural limelight that others seemingly foisted upon him. I have articles back to the early part of that 10's decade where folks were arguing that anyone who designed a golf course should be deemed a "professional" based on that fact alone, so it's little wonder to me that most of these efforts took place with very little in the way of publicity generated from within the clubs, much less from the men directly involved themselves like Wilson and Crump and/or Smith.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4196623911_35999e291a_o.jpg)
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October 12, 1913? Are you sure? Isn't 10.12.1914 more likely?
Tom,
I'll doublecheck. I copied what was written on the old thread.
And I'll check my files in the morning. I could have mistyped the year.
That date is correct.
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Joe
Thanks for checking on that. There was an article from 1914 in the Phila Inquirer that spoke about Wilson working in conjunction with Will Robinson, who was the pro at Atlantic City. Have you seen it...I don't recall you posting it on any of these Seaview threads.
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Tom,
If Colt was very detailed and diligent about his course listings, then why would you suspect or suggest that Colt had any involvement with Seaview, a course he never listed?
I don't suspect Colt was involved, and never suggested he was. There was a report that Colt visited Seaview (along with Merion and PV)...I believe that came from the Ron Whitten's article on Seaview. By the way I don't believe Colt designed Merion either.
What I suggested was a possible connection with Travis and Seaview, and you were the first to suggest the Travis connection not me.
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Joe
Thanks for checking on that. There was an article from 1914 in the Phila Inquirer that spoke about Wilson working in conjunction with Will Robinson, who was the pro at Atlantic City. Have you seen it...I don't recall you posting it on any of these Seaview threads.
I don't recall seeing that Tom, but I can't remember what I just had for breakfast. ;)
Please post it!
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Tom MacWood,
Were the changes to Whitemarsh in 1916? I have an article that talks about changes to two par threes in 1916, the 9th and 12th. The person given credit is member Lou Deming. I would think the change you're talking about might have been earlier?
I do know that the photo of the 5th green at Seaview in George Thomas's book credits Wilson/Robinson and then Tillinghast, but that is the only mention I can recall directly associated with Seaview other than a 1939 story that Joe posted on the other thread right after Geist's death that mentioned that Robinson worked with Geist constructing the course.
Ironically, this article might have been the source of the misattribution of the course to Donald Ross years later, and the only recently found involvement of Hugh Wilson.
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Seaview/03191939Inky_p1.jpg)
Speaking of amateurs architects, etc., here's another article from May 1916...the second section is really interesting.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2744/4255857154_c4168c5345_o.jpg)
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Joe
Thanks for checking on that. There was an article from 1914 in the Phila Inquirer that spoke about Wilson working in conjunction with Will Robinson, who was the pro at Atlantic City. Have you seen it...I don't recall you posting it on any of these Seaview threads.
Tom,
I'm for you posting it as well, but the way these threads sometimes go, I suspect somewhere the late, departed ghost of Will Robinson might be suddenly sensing a troubling disturbance in the force. ;)
(http://ioconnor.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/danger1.jpg)
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"Those were a list of courses he either designed or re-designed or advised. I've been studying Colt for a long time and he was quite detailed and diligent about the courses he listed."
Yes, that (French? ;)) C&A list of courses really looked quite detailed and diligent as to what they designed or re-designed or advised on. ??? For someone to determine from that list what they designed or re-designed or just advised on I guess it sure would require studying Colt for a very, very, very long time. ;)
Mike:
I think it would be hard for anyone who has really read all those agronomy letters between the Wilson brothers and Piper and Oakley and carefully considered them not to get a pretty good feel for the various types of guys those men were, particularly Hugh Wilson and his brother Alan-----they actually seemed quite different to me in various ways---eg Hugh was clearly a lot less expostulatory about various issues that did not have to do with agronomy----eg amateur status et al. And Hugh’s sort of gentle and cordial sense of humor, both self-deprecating and otherwise, is very evident throughout.
It seems a bit off the subject of this particular thread but since amateur status issues are being discussed regarding some of those men, I would say that Peter Putter article is very interesting on that particular subject. In my opinion, he gets most of the sentiment of the time correct but he pretty much misses the boat on the details of how the USGA technically looked at and dealt with that particular issue during those years Peter Putter mentions.
Essentially, some of those men were having their amateur status criticized and discussed in the press and that was definitely not how the USGA wanted to see it happen and play out and they constantly tried to discourage that approach with their developing policies and procedures on Amateur Status which in my opinion are still pretty generally misunderstood by the general public and even researchers.
Most people fail to realize that to have one’s amateur status questioned and removed by the USGA one had to fill some criteria first and one was that an amateur had to have first established a reputation as a player of skill and note to even be able to trade on it for remuneration in the eyes of the USGA. Technically that generally meant that an amateur player had to have competed at a fairly high level----eg national or state or regional championships of expert players. Amateur players such as Travis, Quimet, Tillinghast, Lockwood et al fell into that category in the eyes of the USGA and their amateur status was questioned and removed by the USGA for various reasons. Crump would have fallen into that category but Hugh Wilson’s reputation as an amateur of playing skill and note probably would have been far less clear in the eyes of the USGA.
Another interesting sort of irony right around the 1914-17 timeframe was that the man who actually wrote some of the central resolutions for the USGA on the developing and evolving subject of amateur status rules and regs and thinking appears to be none other than C.B. Macdonald. His resolution that was apparently adopted by the board of the USGA in 1915 was a real study in complex thinking and wording, the ultimate gist of which was to tell American amateurs that the USGA expected them to know what amateurism meant, and that the association was not going to create some laundry list of potential violations but if any amateur player of skill and note did violate amateur status in the opinion of the USGA that they would hear from the USGA about it. And in a number of cases that’s what happened---probably the most famous and controversial being the case of Quimet and two other players of note----all coincidentally from the Woodland GC.
The Woodland GC and even the Mass. Golf Association sort of got up in arms over that and actually sent a team of lawyers to the USGA in New York to defend Quimet and the two others. The USGA completely refused to hear them insisting that their procedure was solely that the players themselves must appear before them (that a club or regional golf association could not represent them) to discuss the individual merits of the case against them. Ultimately that is what Quimet and the two others did do and their amateur playing status was restored by the USGA.
And lastly, the USGA did not and I don’t believe ever has actually declared any amateur player of skill and note to be a professional if they are viewed by the USGA to have violated their amateur status. As far as they go is to declare them to no longer be an amateur player and their ability to play in amateur tournaments is then consequently barred (or debarred as CBM used to call it).
So the upshot reality of all the foregoing is if say you or Joe Bausch decide to accept remuneration for your efforts on Cobbs Creek, the USGA will probably not be contacting you on some violation of your amateur status. ;) But if I took even a red cent for something I've done in architecture since I've competed in the past in regional, state and national competitions of expert players I would fully expect the USGA's SS Gestapo to show up at my barn and throw me into the Golf Hoosegow for the remainder of my natural days. Of course my recourse would be to remind them thusly----"Don't you remember that around 1920 you Silly Rabbits created the "Architects Exception" to the USGA Amateur Status Rules and Regs?"
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Tom,
This February 1915 author certainly didn't think architects should get off the hook! I believe it may have been "Joe Bunker", if memory serves.
I'd almost think the next paragraph would speak of tar and feathers! ;)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4290214545_36c8f64570_o.jpg)
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~
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Thanks Tom....not sure it necessarily means they co-designed Seaview, as the other article said he worked with Geist and "supervised preliminary construction", but it certainly adds to the overall picture. George Thomas at least figured he should get some credit.
Speaking of George C. Thomas, Jr., here's a June 1915 photo of Captain (Fantastic) and the Cobb's Creek Cowboy, Ab Smith.
Smith HATED being photographed in his golf clothing, and we thought we already had the only known published photo of him that was taken from behind during his address position, but voila!, just when you think you've seen it all!
I'd have loved to listen in on that conversation....
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2716/4290658039_7dc0fe7f7b_o.jpg)
although they sure make an unlikely looking pair!
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Were the changes to Whitemarsh in 1916? I have an article that talks about changes to two par threes in 1916, the 9th and 12th. The person given credit is member Lou Deming. I would think the change you're talking about might have been earlier?
The changes I'm referring to were in 1909.
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Were the changes to Whitemarsh in 1916? I have an article that talks about changes to two par threes in 1916, the 9th and 12th. The person given credit is member Lou Deming. I would think the change you're talking about might have been earlier?
The changes I'm referring to were in 1909.
Tom,
Whitemarsh might be a good course to research. Many, many hands in the pot over time, and I'm not sure I've seen a contemporaneous record indicating George Thomas, although Joe Bausch may have something in that regard.
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I'd say probably the best source on the architecture of Whitemarsh and Thomas et al on it would be Geoff Shackleford. He covers it pretty well in his book although there are probably one or two on here who will claim both it and he are wrong too.
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Tom,
Yes, re-read the pertinent sections in Geoff's book tonite about Whitemarsh.
I had forgotten Thomas must have known Ab Smith well from PV and that Thomas said he spent a lot of time studying what Wilson (and presumably Smith and others) did during the laying out and construction of Cobb's Creek.
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Its my impression the unsung person at Whitemarsh is Sam Heebner, and then later Donald Ross.
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Not exactly unsung because fortunately, and according to Geoff Shackelford's (perhaps the most intelligent researcher/analyst I'm aware of) good book on Thomas and George Thomas's own really excellent book on architecture, Sam Heebner was given real credit for both Whitemarsh and some of the many other contributions he made to the USGA, GAP and golf around here. It has also interested me the type of credit Thomas gave to both Hugh Wilson and Ross during and for his evolving career in golf architecture.
Shackelford has felt that Thomas very well may be just about the most imaginative golf architect the field or art has ever known and for years I've tended to agree with him.
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Tom MacWood,
Thomas himself evidently said the Heebner co-designed WV with him, and Heebner was also involved heavily with Thomas at Spring Lake, and both helped construct Ross's design at Sunnybrook.
Certainly, Thomas's later stellar design work after WW1 helped to increase his rep over his friend, the much beloved Sam Heebner who died in the late teens.
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If I was to create a list (even though I hate lists) of who I think may've been the most conceptually and imaginatively brilliant men golf architecture has ever known I think George Thomas would definitely land in my top 2-4. He does get discussed from time to time but for the latter he probably doesn't get discussed enough or well enough.
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Thomas must have flown under the radar. Has anyone found anything about him and golf architecture in the Philadelphia press?
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I recently found this article on Seaview from 1942.
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Tom,
Thanks for the article. It's good to see that both Robinson and Wilson were actually credited with the design work in their day, as opposed to Donald Ross in today's accounts.
What part of the world was that article from? The writer's style is rather over-the-top engaging.
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by the by, Tom...where do you think Mr. Trevor got his misinformation on the local legend William Robinson from? Do you think he simply was thrown on the scent by Fred Byrod's mistaken 1939 article in the Philadelphia papers, or perhaps by Robinson himself who was still alive and perhaps took personal credit? As mentioned before, I have an article from the mid-20s that calls Robinson the "architect" of Ocean City, today's Greate Bay CC, when we know for certain that Willie Park Jr. did the course so who knows what he was telling people after his collaborators passed on to their great reward. ;) ;D
Tom...I'm only kidding! Sort of... ;D
Seriously, thanks for the article and I'm thinking that this coming winter Joe and I need to get back down to AC and go through the more prominent newspaper to find the real story.
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Mike:
Just like with a number of these old courses I don't think the true architectural history is going to be found in newspapers, and particularly not in later newspapers. Like with most all of these other stories of those old courses I think the true story will only be found in contemporaneous material from the clubs themselves or the people who were originally involved from those clubs.
I think this has been proven true again and again on here and elsewhere with the likes of Myopia, Merion, Pine Valley, Philmont and more recently Seaview, Cobbs Creek and North Shore. There have been others such as Concord and Kittansett where the material did not come from the clubs but from original architectural drawings that those clubs had been heretofore unaware of.
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Tom,
I'm pretty confident that Atlantic City CC pro William Robinson had some leading role in the original course at Seaview, with collaborating "expert" help, one of whom was Hugh Wilson, who is mentioned most predominantly in the local/regional news accounts in 1913/14 timeframe the course actually was built and opened, given partial credit by some accounts and full credit by others.
During a time when there was virtually no golf existing between Philadelphia and Atlantic City, I suspect one of Robinson's chief assets was that he knew the game and was "there", and could spend the time overseeing the course development.
The 1942 article Tom MacWood produced was a NY Sun piece as promo to the PGA Championship being held there that year.
Interestingly, or perhaps insightfully, the article fails to mention that the course that was played for that tournament was actually 9 holes from the original 18, and 9 holes designed by William Flynn (the "woods" holes) in the mid 20s.
I don't think the reporter dug very deep for the info, and the fact that Robinson was still alive and in the NJ area at the time may have been part of the lore/lure of the story. Nevertheless, it's a bit more evidence, and I'm always glad to see stuff surface.
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At that point I believe the Flynn course at Seaview ("Woods") was only nine holes and so it wouldn't surprise me if a PGA tournament was played on nine holes of the Bay course and the nine hole Woods course; they aren't very far apart.
Some on here, probably MacWood, have asked on here why the likes of a Wilson or a Thomas were not mentioned more in the press back then for what they did in architecture. I might say that one logical reason was that men like that may not have really wanted to be mentioned much in the press---eg they never exactly sought out publicity because they weren't exactly in the business of golf course architecture or anything else to do with golf; they were that remarkable genre of the "amateur/sportsmen" architect who despite never being paid for anything they did in golf did some of the most remarkable architectural work in the history of golf architecture.
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Tom,
I would wholeheartedly agree...even in thos few articles about Wilson where he's sort of interviewed you can tell very clearly he wasn't seeking the spotlight.
The early pros on the other hand, especially those seeking to supplement modest incomes through course design work, seemed to actively court the press, as witnessed in the recent North Shore article that also mentioned Strong's work at Engineers.
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"The early pros on the other hand, especially those seeking to supplement modest incomes through course design work, seemed to actively court the press, as witnessed in the recent North Shore article that also mentioned Strong's work at Engineers."
Mike:
I also don't think it is very hard to see that some of those "amateur/sportsmen" architects who did such remarkable work (even if never in large quantities) definitely had some of their favorite up and coming professional architects they were promoting. This most certainly can be said by what Wilson said about Flynn for a number of years----never really in the press but most certainly in the personal correspondences we have from the man. The same can be said of both Wilson brothers for Hugh Alison.
I assume some of the others did the same thing with other up and coming professional architects they liked such as Macdonald with Raynor and even Charles Banks, and perhaps Thomas in California with Bell.
It is my distinct opinion, that along about the end of WW1 most of those early "amateur/sportsmen" architects who had done such famous work that took them so much time on single projects really never entered into those long term projects again like Myopia, GCGC, Oakmont, NGLA, Merion East, Pine Valley, that became so famous and made them famous.
I think the reason they stopped at that point is because they realized that at that point they didn't need to do projects like that anymore because the professional element had become far better organized and dedicated and were beginning to devote themselves solely to golf course architecture rather than a multitude of other jobs at the same time.
The latter point is one of the primary points I tried to make in that article ("Hugh Wilson and the Age of the amateur/sportsman architect") in the 2009 Walker Cup program at Merion.
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I've only skim read most of the posts and will attempt a more detailed reading this weekend.
But, one question I have is the following.
In the time frame/s that Colt visited AC, when travelling from Philly to AC by rail or motor, how close/convenient would that be to PV ?
Was there a nearby rail stop for Clementon ?
If Colt was traveling from Philly to AC and back, why wouldn't he avail himself of the opportunity to visit PV ?
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Mike:
Just like with a number of these old courses I don't think the true architectural history is going to be found in newspapers, and particularly not in later newspapers. Like with most all of these other stories of those old courses I think the true story will only be found in contemporaneous material from the clubs themselves or the people who were originally involved from those clubs.
I think this has been proven true again and again on here and elsewhere with the likes of Myopia, Merion, Pine Valley, Philmont and more recently Seaview, Cobbs Creek and North Shore. There have been others such as Concord and Kittansett where the material did not come from the clubs but from original architectural drawings that those clubs had been heretofore unaware of.
TEP
Historical research involves gathering information from a number of different sources: club documents, personal journals, personal letters, personal documents, historical archives, census information, business records, land records, legal documents, immigration information, military records, newspaper articles, magazine articles, etc, etc. There is no reason to ignore or exclude any of this information, and anyone who would is only stifling their own efforts to discover what happened, which is what historical research is all about. The more information the better, and never has there been so much information available for anyone who is interested and has the desire. And just about all the sources I just mentioned are now digitized, that is a major breakthrough, not just for golf architecture historians, but for all historians.
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Tom,
You stated, "And just about all the sources I just mentioned are now digitized, that is a major breakthrough, not just for golf architecture historians, but for all historians..."
Many of those you mentioned can be found in difital format if one knows where to look, that is problem number one. Problem number two is that the first four that you mentioned, "club documents, personal journals, personal letters, personal documents..." almost NEVER are and requires on to gain and maintain a personal relationship(s) with peron(s) or club involved and secondly that one mus travel to them to view these and HOPE that one is given permission to either copy or record by hand thes items...
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"TEP
Historical research involves gathering information from a number of different sources: club documents, personal journals, personal letters, personal documents, historical archives, census information, business records, land records, legal documents, immigration information, military records, newspaper articles, magazine articles, etc, etc. There is no reason to ignore or exclude any of this information, and anyone who would is only stifling their own efforts to discover what happened, which is what historical research is all about. The more information the better, and never has there been so much information available for anyone who is interested and has the desire. And just about all the sources I just mentioned are now digitized, that is a major breakthrough, not just for golf architecture historians, but for all historians."
Tom MacWood:
I could not agree more with that statement of yours above----eg historical research and competent historical analysis involves gathering information from all sources----from newspapers and periodicals to contemporaneous club administrative records and everything else between the spectrum of those two types of source information and material.
And that is precisely why I have always found it so ironic, and frankly contradictory, that you would make statements like that one above, that again, I could not agree with more. I say that because you so constantly either refuse or just fail to establish any personal relationships with clubs you make the subjects of your historical GCA interest. And I also say that, as Phil Young just did as well above, because you could far better actually see and carefully consider their extremely important contemporaneous administrative, albeit it private, material and records.
I personally and actually look at, carefully consider, and analyze it all with the subject courses of my interest, including all the newspaper and periodical articles about them, but it seems all you ever actually do or look at and seriously consider is the latter. To me that is doing less than half a proper and competent job of research and analysis. And that has been your constant MO on this website as long as you've been on it which is a pretty long time now.
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Over the years I have been helped by members and historians at numerous golf clubs, but unlike you I don't get on here and brag about it, and I see no purpose in doing so.
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"Over the years I have been helped by members and historians at numerous golf clubs, but unlike you I don't get on here and brag about it, and I see no purpose in doing so."
Tom MacWood:
I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who reads this website you sure do have your own way about bragging about what you do with your interest in GCA's history.
That statement of yours above is a very poor and very weak excuse and attempt to cover up the fact you try to act the expert on the detailed architectural histories and architects of the likes of very important courses in this country such as Myopia, Merion East and Pine Valley (and a number of others) without ever having BEEN TO THOSE CLUBS much less even attempting to establish a personal research relationship with them as some of the rest of us who really do know a good deal about them and their memberships have and have to do.
Essentially, there is just no way of getting around the fact that is what any really good historical researcher, analyst, historian does and has to do without exception; and you most certainly are not the first exception to that reality and rule and you're never going to be.
Your attempts to maintain that it can be otherwise are a sham, disingenuous, evasive and most important of all completely discovered at this point by the viewers and contributors on this website. That is probably why you and your opinions and contentions have completely failed the all-important aspect of peer review on here on some of these recent threads, particularly the one on North Shore.
It has been too long in coming, in my opinion, but thankfully it has finally come.
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TEP
I've never written anything or planned on writing anything about Merion or Myopia. I did write an essay on Crump and was assisted by the man who wrote their most recent club history and had access to all the club records.
I find it humorous that a man who has never written any historical account, who rarely if ever conducts any historical research, is on here (for the umpteenth time) trying to tell the rest of us how to conduct research. You are funny.
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I've only skim read most of the posts and will attempt a more detailed reading this weekend.
But, one question I have is the following.
In the time frame/s that Colt visited AC, when travelling from Philly to AC by rail or motor, how close/convenient would that be to PV ?
Was there a nearby rail stop for Clementon ?
If Colt was traveling from Philly to AC and back, why wouldn't he avail himself of the opportunity to visit PV ?
Pat,
Hopefully Kyle Harris will read this and weigh in with more detailed railroad-related information. What I can tell you is, the Absecon NJT train station is about 2-3 miles south of the club, where Rt. 30 intersects with Rt. 9. 100 years ago, it wasn't NJT, it was the Pennsylvania RR. (I think). I believe both the Reading and PRR ran competing lines into Atlantic City. If I recall correctly, the main train terminal was where the outlets are located today.
I believe, and I may be mistaken, that today's NJT Atlantic City line follows the PRR right of way. Reading RR trains ran from Camden to ACY and other points in South Jersey.
There were several mergers and takeovers before this time as well.
In the early 1900s, Rt. 30 would have run from Camden to Atlantic City, as it does today. As you may know, Rt. 30 (White Horse Pike) crosses Rt. 9 (down there, it's called New York Rd) about 2 miles or so below the Seaview complex.
Closer to Philadelphia, Rt. 30 passes through, or near, the borough of Clementon maybe a mile north of Pine Valley.
The "Black Horse Pike", or, Rt 168 up in Camden & Gloucester Counties, joining up with Rt 322 in Washington Twsp, seems to me a little too far south of a route to take, although that runs into Atlantic City as well.
So, it seems in both cases, it would have been convenient to visit both PV and Seaview, by rail or train. I am not certain if Clementon had a station. It is possible there was a "whistle stop" in Clementon or PV.
So, to answer your question, Pat, it would be reasonable that Colt could have visited PV, Seaview, and possibly Atlantic City CC, as there was transportation infrastructure there at the time, both road as well as rail.
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Pat,
This was indded the time that Crump convinced Colt to come down to PV, in May 1913.
There is a thread somewhere here where Tilly documents it all in a timeline (put together by Joe Bausch) that makes clear that Crump already had a good deal of the routing together before Colt arrived but Colt helped bridge the gaps and made many of his own contributions during what turned into something like a two week visit.
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There is a thread somewhere here where Tilly documents it all in a timeline (put together by Joe Bausch) that makes clear that Crump already had a good deal of the routing together before Colt arrived but Colt helped bridge the gaps and made many of his own contributions during what turned into something like a two week visit.
Those articles are on page 2 of this thread:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37570.35/
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"TEP
I've never written anything or planned on writing anything about Merion or Myopia."
Tom MacWood:
I realize that. And I feel it would be useless for you to try to write anything truly informative on the architectural histories of Merion or Myopia because you really don't know much about either club or course for the reasons I've cited.
I was only referring to what you have said about both of them on discussions about them on this DG with others that know more about them than you do because they have relationships with those clubs and have been able to analyze material from them that you haven't because you've never had those kinds of close relationships with those clubs and have even said you see no good reason or purpose in having a good relationship with them! ???
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"I did write an essay on Crump and was assisted by the man who wrote their most recent club history and had access to all the club records.
I find it humorous that a man who has never written any historical account, who rarely if ever conducts any historical research, is on here (for the umpteenth time) trying to tell the rest of us how to conduct research. You are funny."
Tom MacWood:
The man who wrote the most recent history of Pine Valley??
Do you even know the man's name?
He is a very fine friend of mine and like that Merchantville township manager you duped (who has stated that if you come to Merchantville, New Jersey he has a good mind to sue you) I have a good mind to just call the most recent history writer of PV's history and ask him if you did speak to him and what HIS OPINION is of what you two spoke about. When you spoke to him did you even bother to mention you were intending to write an article about Crump explaining he committed suicide or did you just conveniently avoid that as you did with that township manager?
You're a sham; I think you know it and I think you know I know it and by now I think most on here know it and I think you know that too, at this point. The final question is do you really want everyone to know it too? ;)
And finally, it seems you aren't even aware what I have written on historical GCA subjects. Perhaps the reason for that is unlike what you've done, most of what I've written were not done for GOLFCLUBATLAS.com but rather for more main-stream exposure. ;)
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Tom MacWood:
Like a lot of things you say and claim on this website it seems you want to ignore altogether any questions about them, including the questions in the last post.
Why is that? ;)
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The man who wrote the most recent history of Pine Valley??
Do you even know the man's name? Yes I do. We've discussed him and his PV history many times on this site, and I've mentioned speaking to him more than once too.
He is a very fine friend of mine and like that Merchantville township manager you duped (who has stated that if you come to Merchantville, New Jersey he has a good mind to sue you) I have a good mind to just call the most recent history writer of PV's history and ask him if you did speak to him and what HIS OPINION is of what you two spoke about. When you spoke to him did you even bother to mention you were intending to write an article about Crump explaining he committed suicide or did you just conveniently avoid that as you did with that township manager? Yes I did tell him I was writing an essay (I wonder if he's read it). In fact one of the questions I asked him was about Crump's educational background, I asked if he attended college or not. He said he didn't think so, but went on to say I shouldn't write about that. If you will remember I wasn't planning on writing an essay when I spoke to the fellow in Merchantville, which was a good 2 years before talking JF. It was only after you & Wayne brow beat the poor fellow that I decided to write the essay. I have thanked you before for being indirectly responsible, and I thank you again. I'm surprised you haven't spoken to JF before about this, its not as if I kept my call to him a secret. I have his phone number if you need it.
You're a sham; I think you know it and I think you know I know it and by now I think most on here know it and I think you know that too, at this point. The final question is do you really want everyone to know it too? ;)
Do I want everyone to know I'm a sham? I don't believe I am a sham so the question is not really relevant.
And finally, it seems you aren't even aware what I have written on historical GCA subjects. Perhaps the reason for that is unlike what you've done, most of what I've written were not done for GOLFCLUBATLAS.com but rather for more main-stream exposure. ;)
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My eyes are bleeding....please stop.
Better yet, let's find some more historical info on Seaview if we can.
I'll start.
Here's legendary J. Wood Platt putting on one of those wild greens conceived by Will Robinson & Hugh Wilson. By the way, Platt won the first tournament ever played at Cobb's Creek in August 1916 at the age of 17.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4644659067_e452937808_o.jpg)
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Mike,
Is the hole # given in the article? Just curious. For some reason it reminds me of #12, or whatever the hole most north on the property is with the "snake" bunker on the right side.
I played Pines this past Saturday. Not a lot of discussion here. I have some pics but haven't gone through them yet; many very, very good Flynn holes, some average to below average Flynn holes (#1); 2 good Gordon holes (5,9), and 3 (6-7-8) atrocious holes.
Wandering around the lower level of the clubhouse, nearer to the pro shop than the locker room, I saw a few Gordon prints or reprints of holes, but no mention of Flynn, which is a shame. The scorecard for the Pines lists Flynn/Toomey (they're literally only half right). It would have been interesting to see Flynn drawings of his nine holes displayed the same as the Ross drawings, and, because folks may know a little more about him now, or could tie in with his work with Phila. courses like Philadelphia CC, HV, RG, Manuf. CC, Philmont ;) (NOT), Woodcrest, and Lancaster, and notable national courses such as Shinnecock Hills, it may actually be good marketing for the resort-more may be wanting to play Pines and see his work.
I did note, many of the bunkers were in poor shape, many had stones in them, and I knowingly violated the rules by removing stones the size of a peach pit around my ball. (But, I didn't post a score-TEP, check your PMs, please).
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"Yes I did tell him I was writing an essay (I wonder if he's read it). In fact one of the questions I asked him was about Crump's educational background, I asked if he attended college or not. He said he didn't think so, but went on to say I shouldn't write about that."
Tom MacWood:
He told you he didn't think you should write about Crump's educational background? Do you remember what he did tell you he thought you should write about? You didn't mention a thing to him about researching and writing about Crump's suicide did you? And why was that?
The reason I know that is I remember how surprised he was when I told him that was what you were going to write about or did write about.
"If you will remember I wasn't planning on writing an essay when I spoke to the fellow in Merchantville, which was a good 2 years before talking JF. It was only after you & Wayne brow beat the poor fellow that I decided to write the essay. I have thanked you before for being indirectly responsible, and I thank you again. I'm surprised you haven't spoken to JF before about this, its not as if I kept my call to him a secret. I have his phone number if you need it."
No, I don't remember that you weren't planning on writing an essay when you spoke to the Merchantville township manager about Crump's suicide. I never actually knew when you spoke to him anyway. What I remember is you were putting posts on GOLFCLUBALTAS.com alluding to the fact you could prove Crump committed suicide (I'm quite sure those threads are still on this website to confirm that fact).
That was when Wayne and I began asking you how you could prove that. Of course you were evasive as always and you just continued to claim on this website you could prove it. That's when I called you on the phone about it and that's when you actually told me (more like began bragging to me) you basically conned that information out of that Mercchantville township manager by talking to him first about other things such as building architecture which you claimed he liked. And you even mentioned to me on that phone call that that was why you are a better researcher than us etc-----eg supposedly in your mind because you basically conned information you were after out of a man without even mentioning the purpose of why you were calling him in the first place.
And then you have the audacity to tell us we brow beat that Merchantville township manager!? We did nothing of the kind. We simply called him up and asked him if he realized that a person who had called him was intending to write an article about Crump's suicide on information that he claimed he had gotten from him. That's when he told me if you ever showed up in Merchantville he would sue you.
Of course you never mentioned where or from whom you got that information except apparently to me in that phone call which really does make one wonder why you bragged about it to me when it was pretty clear I never thought you should pursue that subject or at least not without informing Pine Valley about it first.
We were the ones who mentioned on here where you unethically got that information and we mentioned it before you put that article on here. But I supposed somewhere in your warped, jaded and highly unethical mind you figured if you didn't mention where you got that information that it was just fine to get it from that Merchantville township manager that way without even telling him what you were really after in the first place. So when it came out you just blamed Wayne and I for your own unethical behavior of conning information out of a public official without telling him why you were calling him in the first place. Again, if you had some information you didn't want anyone to know where it came from why in the world brag about how you got it to me on the phone?
This isn't the first time you've claimed you didn't even know that you would write an article on Crump's suicide when you spoke to that Merchantville township manager and unethically conned information out of him. That pathetic excuse sure doesn't work for me and it shouldn't for anyone else either. You obviously knew when you called that man what you were looking for and it obviously wasn't some discusson about building architecture in New Jersey! ;)
Frankly I had a discussion about Crump's suicide about five years before any of this with Geoff Shackelford. He mentioned he might write about it. I asked him if he did do that if he would mention it to Pine Valley first. He told me he didn't know. He also mentioned that of course he didn't have to do that but he understood it would be the decent thing to do. Later he told me he'd decided he never would write about that subject.
To me that was a considerate and ethical decision on his part, and for reasons you probably don't even understand much less appreciate.
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"Do I want everyone to know I'm a sham? I don't believe I am a sham so the question is not really relevant."
Fascinating logic. Since you also don't seem to believe that conning information out of a public official without bothering to tell him why you are calling him in the first place is unethical, I suppose you also believe that even being questioned about it is also an irrelevant question. ;)
In your mind I guess it's better to just rationalize it away or better yet try to shunt your lack of ethics and your irresponsibility off on others, in this case Wayne Morrison and me.
Anyway, if you did call the most recent Pine Valley historian before writing your essay on Crump's suicide one probably wouldn't be too optimistic to expect you to at least mention to him what the essay was essentially going to be about. Instead it seems you led him to believe it might've been about Crump's education; a subject you just said he mentioned to you wouldn't be a very good subject.
Would it be too much to expect, at that point, you might've said: "Oh no, Mr. Finegan, his education is just background for my primary theme which his about the fact he committed suiciide."
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Would it be too much to expect, at that point, you might've said: "Oh no, Mr. Finegan, his education is just background for my primary theme which his about the fact he committed suiciide."
Tom, in fairness, Crump's suicide was but a very small part of that essay. I'd be hard pressed to view it as a primary theme. For me, that subject is largely lost in the broader detail given to Crump's life and the Pine Valley story. Just one man's opinion. Best wishes,
Ed
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Mike,
Is the hole # given in the article? Just curious. For some reason it reminds me of #12, or whatever the hole most north on the property is with the "snake" bunker on the right side.
I played Pines this past Saturday. Not a lot of discussion here. I have some pics but haven't gone through them yet; many very, very good Flynn holes, some average to below average Flynn holes (#1); 2 good Gordon holes (5,9), and 3 (6-7-8) atrocious holes.
Wandering around the lower level of the clubhouse, nearer to the pro shop than the locker room, I saw a few Gordon prints or reprints of holes, but no mention of Flynn, which is a shame. The scorecard for the Pines lists Flynn/Toomey (they're literally only half right). It would have been interesting to see Flynn drawings of his nine holes displayed the same as the Ross drawings, and, because folks may know a little more about him now, or could tie in with his work with Phila. courses like Philadelphia CC, HV, RG, Manuf. CC, Philmont ;) (NOT), Woodcrest, and Lancaster, and notable national courses such as Shinnecock Hills, it may actually be good marketing for the resort-more may be wanting to play Pines and see his work.
I did note, many of the bunkers were in poor shape, many had stones in them, and I knowingly violated the rules by removing stones the size of a peach pit around my ball. (But, I didn't post a score-TEP, check your PMs, please).
Doug,
Unfortunately, the article doesn't mention what hole that is, but I like your thinking as to the possibility.
As far as the original nine-holes Flynn built, the closest thing I found in the clubhouse documenting that nine is a drawing of the 27 holes from the 20s, of which I took this pic of the original Flynn nine.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3297/3175070791_cc54524607_b.jpg)
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TEP
You have a very selective memory.
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"TEP
You have a very selective memory."
Tom MacWood:
Fortunately I don't need to rely on my memory when it comes to my discussions and communications with you on any medium. The same has been true with at least half a dozen others over the years on subjects pertaining to GCA, agronomy etc. But in all the other cases there was nothing adverserial or argumentative about them. I've kept all Internet text type communications, as well as regular mail communications and including telephone recordings of those whose opinions I have really valued over the years. Those include Coore, Crenshaw, Prichard, and a number of other architects; numerous superintendents, valued opinions from analysts and historians I admire such as Shackelford, Labannce, Andrews et al, etc.
I could see on and from this website for many years now that you look at a particular set of facts quite differently than everyone else does, and consequently it's very clear you distort those facts for some reason. I have no idea if it's purposeful or if it isn't. I only know you distort by ignoring, rationalizing or whatever, clear facts involving people such as that Merchantville township manager so I made a point long before that Crump article to do the same with you----eg record and file all communications including telephone calls.
So I don't need to rely on memory. It's always been obvious to me that you would use a retort and response like the one above; it's certainly not the first time.
The fact is you conned that Merchantville township manager out of information on Crump's death without first telling him why you were calling him or what you really wanted to know from him. My telephone call with him confirms that. But the best confirmation of all is my phone call with you where you actually bragged about getting that information out of him that way and your further explanation to me that that makes you a better researcher than us (me and Wayne, who were at that time asking you how you could prove Crump really did commit suicide).
I think that's unethical anyway and particularly if you write about it without first informing a source, whether you say you knew you would at the time or not. That you say you didn't know you would write about it when you spoke to him I view as just another of your excuses and rationalizations and I frankly don't believe you for a second.
The second thing I feel is inexcusable on your part is your total failure to inform Pine Valley first of the subject you were writing about---eg Crump and his suicide. And that includes Mr. Finegan who you say you spoke to in preparation for that article. You probably would have neglected to inform them of it at all before putting it on here had it not been for me and how I got you John Ott's email so you could sent it to him after the fact.
Frankly, I see a pattern here that probably explains why you virtually always refuse to establish a relationship with a club first before you make them a subject of your research or writing. You either don't understand ethics, common decency or else apparently you feel if you actually tried it may not work out very well for you.
I'm aware with and from other clubs that the latter is obviously quite true too. I am also aware that there are some on here who do not see some of these things as I do and some others of my friends on here and elsewhere do. Some think information should just come out no matter how it is derived, particularly on this new Internet medium. Call me old fashioned but I still believe in things like ethics, commonsense, etiquette etc because ultimately it all gets down to human nature in the end and many of us really do want to deal with these clubs and the people in and from them in the future. Apparently you don't have that inclination, that consideration or that understanding, and it shows on here with you loud and clear!
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http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16823.msg293860/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16520.msg287378/
TEP
You are a funny guy. This is about the forth or fifth version of the events you've told. Either your memory is fading or you've told so many lies its difficult for you to keep them all straight. I lean toward the latter. If anyone is interested (and I doubt anyone is....they've been listening to your attacks for too long) I've attached a couple of links to back before I finished the essay on Crump. You developed your con story some time after that.
You said I conned the poor fellow...how exactly did I con him? He denied to you that he told me Crump committed suicide. Who do you believe? The second point which is lost on you, I never mentioned him or any information he may or may not have given me in the essay, so even your falsified point is moot. Falsification seems to be your specialty.
I still find it humorous that a man who has never written any historical account, who rarely if ever conducts any historical research, is on here (for the umpteenth time) trying to tell the rest of us how to conduct research.
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Tom MacWood:
Thank you for posting those old threads. One certainly wonders why you posted those two on the post above or what you think they say or prove. I was actually looking at you searching a few other posts earlier from a few years ago that had to do with how you unethically conned the township manager of Merchantville out of information on Crump's death without telling him why you were calling him. I wonder why you didn't use those since they are completely consistent with what I've said on this one. ;)
Again, thanks for responding as you have. I look forward to having a complete discussion on this with yoiu for those who are interested. I think it is completely necessary, perhaps even required on here for contributors and viewers of this website to really understand your modus operandi and your agenda, particularly as it seems in recent weeks and months on other subjects and threads your opinions and contentions are receiving no support whatsoever. I view all of this as necessary peer review. I hope you do too.
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"I still find it humorous that a man who has never written any historical account, who rarely if ever conducts any historical research, is on here (for the umpteenth time) trying to tell the rest of us how to conduct research."
Tom MacWood:
Why don't you start by reading an article that was in the 2009 Walker Cup program? The title of it is "Hugh I. Wilson and the Age of the amateur/sportsman architect." It may interest you as that seems to be a subject you've certainly had a number of opinions about on this website over the years. ;)
I think you can find it on the USGA's website or on Google as the article was not only in the 2009 Merion Walker Cup program but it went out to all USGA subscribers----what would that be, something like 700,000?
Feel free to post it on this website if you want to or we can probably find someone to take apart the program and scan in the article and the photos and logos and such of the architects and clubs that are the subject of the article.
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Tom MacWood:
By the way, I have always felt and have said so many times on here that the thread you are viewing at this very moment-----eg "CB Macdonald and Merion" that was begun by you in February 2003 and continued to run on here on and off until the middle of 2008 was the very thread that first began all these adverserial and argumentative Merion threads and other adverserial subjects between you and others on here.
If you look on something like the second page of that particular thread you will see you asked us a question about who precisely designed what on various holes of Merion East. We told you back then over seven years ago that that kind of specific information is just unknowable because specific information like that was never recorded by Merion and frankly is never really recorded on any golf course or project.
It's too bad you refused to listen to that and refused to acknowledge it and it's too bad still that you continue to. Obviously that sort of logical response and logical analysis does not suit your modus operandi and your agenda on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.
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http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,6839.175/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16450.0/
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,18231.msg323239/
TEP
Here are a few more links to other threads including the thread when the whole thing blew up on GCA. You need to read all these threads a little more closely, you're obviously confused because they do support your latest version of events.
I learned of Crump's suicide a good year before that thread in 2004, and told Paul and Ran at the time what I discovered. They can confirm the timing and that I never planned on writing an essay. It was only after you & Wayne brow beat the poor fellow, and began attacking my credibility that I decided to write an essay on Crump. Thanks again. And as Ed pointed out a few posts ago (which you conveniently ignored) the suicide was but a minor part of the essay.
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"I still find it humorous that a man who has never written any historical account, who rarely if ever conducts any historical research, is on here (for the umpteenth time) trying to tell the rest of us how to conduct research."
Tom MacWood:
Why don't you start by reading an article that was in the 2009 Walker Cup program? The title of it is "Hugh I. Wilson and the Age of the amateur/sportsman architect." It may interest you as that seems to be a subject you've certainly had a number of opinions about on this website over the years. ;)
I think you can find it on the USGA's website or on Google as the article was not only in the 2009 Merion Walker Cup program but it went out to all USGA subscribers----what would that be, something like 700,000?
Feel free to post it on this website if you want to or we can probably find someone to take apart the program and scan in the article and the photos and logos and such of the architects and clubs that are the subject of the article.
TEP
I missed that one, and I'm a USGA member. Could you send it to me. I'd love to read it.
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Tom MacWood:
Thanks for those additional links; they just continue to confirm what I have always said on here about the way you went about looking into Crump's death including conning the township manager of Merchantville NJ, as well as failing to discuss it with Pine Valley.
Even with proving that Crump committed suicide, a fact that apparently neither Pine Valley, Crump's friends or family ever wanted to get into, even though that rumor has been around Pine Valley for decades (I heard about it over thirty years ago), it looks like you didn't even get it right about where he died.
It's probably just about certain he died not in his home in Merchantville, as you claimed in your essay, but in his cabin at Pine Valley and there is some pretty solid proof of that. Apparently his body was moved to Merchantville and for whatever their reasons that is both why and how his family began the cover-up of the circumstances of his death. For whatever their reasons, the cover-up of the circumstances of his death by his family seems to have been comprehensive and fairly complete, as even Hugh Wilson over ten days later thought he died from poison to the brain from a tooth abscess.
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"TEP
I missed that one, and I'm a USGA member. Could you send it to me. I'd love to read it."
Tom MacWood:
I guess it could be found somewhere on the USGA's website since they did send it out to all the members via their email component or whatever it is that took the place of their old magazine, but I've never tried to find it that way.
But I would be happy to personally send you a copy of the 2009 Walker Cup program which has all the photos and club logos in the article. Plus the program has a really comprehensive hole by hole description article in it by Wayne Morrison.
You may need to give me your mailing address though because the only one I have for you is "Tom MacWood, Ivory Tower, Ohio." Would that address reach you? If not, tell me what it is.
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Will miracles never cease: in the June issue of GD under the "vital statistics" part Seaview Bay lists the course as "... designed by Hugh Wilson in 1914 with help from Donald Ross, who laid out the bunkers."
I guess some people at GD actually read GCA. ;) ;D
(http://www.golfdigest.com/images/magazine/2010/06/maar02_longdrives.jpg)
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Joe
Wasn't Ron Whitten the first person to suggest the Wilson connection in an article a number of years ago? If you look up Bethpage I suspect you will also find the name Burbeck.
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Will miracles never cease: in the June issue of GD under the "vital statistics" part Seaview Bay lists the course as "... designed by Hugh Wilson in 1914 with help from Donald Ross, who laid out the bunkers."
I guess some people at GD actually ready GCA. ;) ;D
I'm watching some of the Shoprite Classic and The Golf Channel just stated that the Bay course was routed by Hugh Wilson, and Donald Ross "helped out" with the bunkering.
My jaw dropped!
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Hallelujah.
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"Wasn't Ron Whitten the first person to suggest the Wilson connection in an article a number of years ago? If you look up Bethpage I suspect you will also find the name Burbeck."
Not unless Ron Whitten was writing articles about Seaview about 95 years ago.
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Here is a currently functioning link to Ron Whitten's 2006 GD article on the architectural origin of the Seaview Bay course:
http://web.archive.org/web/20061030133756/http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/seaview.html
I'm going down to the course this morning to see the recent tweaks as MyPhillyGolf.com reported on recently:
http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=14546
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I'm going down to the course this morning to see the recent tweaks as MyPhillyGolf.com reported on recently:
http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=14546
"new GPS units in the golf carts"
sigh. not many great golf courses in the US with as easy a walk as Seaview Bay. i know the cart battle has been lost for years, but it still makes me sad. i hope management doesn't begin actively discouraging walking.
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Joe,
Without rereading this thread.
Why would one architect lay out the course........... and then abandon it ?
And, why would another architect, who didn't route the course or design each hole, want to introduce the bunkering ?
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Joe,
Without rereading this thread.
Why would one architect lay out the course........... and then abandon it ?
And, why would another architect, who didn't route the course or design each hole, want to introduce the bunkering ?
Maybe the client didn't send the check! or they had a different sort of falling out... Either way Cal Club is MacKenzie bunkering on someone Macan's (or W. Watson's?) layout
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Joe,
Without rereading this thread.
Why would one architect lay out the course........... and then abandon it ?
And, why would another architect, who didn't route the course or design each hole, want to introduce the bunkering ?
From Mike Cirba's IMO "Who Was Hugh Wilson:":
Seaview
Much like both courses at Merion, Seaview was built with limited bunkering with the idea that hazards were best located after careful observation and study of play. Tillinghast wrote in January 1915, “Seaview will never be the test of golf that Pine Valley is. It was never contemplated as such. The course is flat with just enough of an undulation in the fairway to rob the flatness of the ground. Some of the best courses in Great Britain are flat, but thanks to what is known as the Mid Surrey or Alpinization scheme of bunkering, the courses are really of a championship caliber. And that is what Seaview will be in another year. The bunkering has not yet been started and those who saw the course for the first time will be surprised when they see it a year from now…The greens, however, were a delight to all and in spite of their newness they will compare favorably with any course in the country…Each and every green is characteristic and no one resembles the other. All are undulating and all are perfectly true.”
Golfwriter Verdant Greene, perhaps gently poking the movement that religiously copied holes from abroad wrote, “There has been no straining for effect at the Seaview course. No famous hazards abroad or at home have been counterfeited there, nor have distances been stretched nor plans laid to keep contestants from drawing a long breath throughout the round…There are plenty of hazards which call for exact shots, but no ultra-penalization. While the links, as is almost inevitable, being so near the sea, has not great variety of surface, being used as a farm up to two years ago, the putting greens present more undulations and humps than a camel’s back. Even Garden City has been surpassed in that respect.”
Shortly after that “soft” summer opening, Clarence Geist fell deathly ill, and it wasn’t until he fully recovered that the course was officially opened with a prestigious, audacious four-ball tournament with top amateur golfers in the middle of January. By that time, Hugh Wilson was looking to get back to the business of his real business, insurance. He did find time in April of 1915, however, to return to Seaview to play as Francis Ouimet’s partner in defeating Clarence Geist and new Seaview professional Wilfred Reid in a highly publicized match, with Ouimet setting a new club record of 73.
The Seaview course that had its soft opening in summer of 1914 is the same routing that is today known as the Seaview “Bay Course”. An opening day hole-by-hole description reads much like today’s course, and even though Donald Ross was engaged by Geist later in 1915 to “stiffen” the course with extensive bunkering, only some of Ross’s recommendations were ever followed.
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If memory serves, the missing subtext in the above account is that the original course came under considerable criticism.
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Isn't the LPGA ShopRite Classic played on The Bay Course? ???
This is attempt to tie this week's tournament to upcoming Women's US Open at LCC.
This from Lancaster News on 5/29:
Season In Full Swing
Women's Tour Enters Its Defining Stretch On The Road To Lancaster
By Mike Gross
GALLOWAY, N.J. - This year's LPGA ShopRite Classic could be called, with minimal reaching, the U.S. Women's Open Lite.
It's being held about 140 miles from Lancaster, by the Jersey Shore. It's a resort course, but the old-school kind, with a grand old clubhouse/hotel in the tradition of Pinehurst or Greenbrier.
It is utterly not an appendage to a housing development.
The golf course, like Lancaster Country Club, was designed by William Flynn.
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Isn't the LPGA ShopRite Classic played on The Bay Course? ???
This is attempt to tie this week's tournament to upcoming Women's US Open at LCC.
This from Lancaster News on 5/29:
Season In Full Swing
Women's Tour Enters Its Defining Stretch On The Road To Lancaster
By Mike Gross
GALLOWAY, N.J. - This year's LPGA ShopRite Classic could be called, with minimal reaching, the U.S. Women's Open Lite.
It's being held about 140 miles from Lancaster, by the Jersey Shore. It's a resort course, but the old-school kind, with a grand old clubhouse/hotel in the tradition of Pinehurst or Greenbrier.
It is utterly not an appendage to a housing development.
The golf course, like Lancaster Country Club, was designed by William Flynn.
Well, the writer is at least lukewarm!
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All-
I'm on the Board for the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP) Golf Charity event held at Seaview this year on June 22. Please consider sponsoring the event or maybe get your company to do so. There is also a chance to win $10,000 with our Golf Ball Drop. Lastly, I will buy you a drink and reveal the true architect..
http://golf.chop.edu/about-the-event/
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As somewhat of a denouement to this thread, I was at Merion this previous weekend and as it turns out this whole architectural attribution of Seaview could have been solved way back in 1981. At that time, Charles Price, the wonderful late golf writer penned a piece for Golf Digest previewing the US Open at Merion titled "Merion Lies In Wait".
In response, Price received a typed letter from Hugh Wilson's oldest daughter, Louise. that began; "May I introduce myself as the daughter of Hugh Wilson, arcitect (sp) of Merion." and goes on to correct Price that "he (Wilson) never saw Scotland until he went there to study the golf courses." The article had erroneously stated that Wilson was born and raised in Scotland.
She also corrects on other matters; "Also, he did do two more courses - Seaview at Absecon, NJ and a public course somewhere around Philadelphia." The article seemed to imply that Wilson designed no other courses but those at Merion.
The letter also mentions that "He had reservations on the Titanic for his return trip but was detained and missed the boat." It seems Wilson extended his visit to see/play other courses, so see...golf really can save your life! :)
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Here is an old article about Opening Day at Seaview from the Hartford Courant-January 10, 1915:
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/F27AE357-E280-41D1-BFDB-45A0940951C3_zpshhsxxgqb.jpeg)
(http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag323/bretjlawrence/9BED2AC0-BD5C-4BCC-8AE2-5611AFB214B5_zps0jtm2fv5.jpeg)
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The course is now giving co-design credit:
http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/SeaviewBay/pages/page_9.html?
;D
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Thanks Bret nice article. Most of the early articles I've seen have similarly commented on the unique creativity of the greens.
Joe, nice to see they're finally giving Wilson some credit but they have those two names in the wrong order.;)
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I'm not sure if this January 1915 New York Herald article has been posted here prior. It provides a critical review of the course based on an "Opening Day" tournament that had been held a few days prior.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5560/29950459674_e9ecc5ba3f_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5651/30494335971_4804293d36_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5478/29948497263_2d5f919edc_b.jpg)
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Some old Atlantic City newspapers have recently come online for searching so I thought this pretty detailed article from the Atlantic City Daily Press dated July 29, 1914 might fit well on this older thread.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52758120654_2c878440f8_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52757335387_15f70537fc_c.jpg)
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The $250,000 investment mentioned here converts to $7.3mm in 2023.
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The $250,000 investment mentioned here converts to $7.3mm in 2023.
Pretty good bargain with no architectural fees. ;)
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8)
Of all the things written here Joe Bausch may have topped them all in this thread.
Are we really going to believe that a golf writer had the name " VERDANT GREENE " cmon man :P
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Archie,
Love the names of the Philly/NJ golf writers back then...Peter Putter, Joe Bunker, Verdant Greene, et.al. ;D
Recently, a host of Atlantic City newspapers became available to search online. You may be interested to know that I let Jim & Doug Fraser know (through a Facebook group on Golf History) that I was able to learn who designed the nine hole Pomona Golf Course that opened in 1947. It was one of the first black-owned clubs/courses in the country and was originally known as Apex Golf & Country Club, built on Madame Washington's farm.
It was Leo and Sonny Fraser, with an assist by "golf architect" William "Bill" Entwhistle. They were very instrumental in integrating that club during its early days and were there for the opening day.
Also, Joe found that Willie Park came back to your former club in around 1923 to see how construction of the course was coming along.
Hope all is well.