Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on August 25, 2009, 05:34:34 AM
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Few courses have been born with the advantages of Cavendish GC. Not only did the 9th Duke of Devonshire provide the land, he also paid for the construction of the course and the clubhouse! Furthermore, when the Duke terminated the lease for the Burbage Ladies GC, a pack of members became newly available to sign on to the new club. Finally, for many years the Duke’s estate subsidized the club until 1954 when the members purchased the club and adjacent farm for the criminally low price of £5000! Such largesse is to be roundly applauded.
The singular purpose of Cavendish's design is outstanding. The routing of the course is masterful with several clever changes of tempo and a flow which capitalizes on the terrain. It is surprising very few birdie opportunities exist when we consider the yardage from the back tees is just over 5700 yards. Most courses of this length would often be considered easy, but Cavendish has seven holes over 400 yards in length. Depending on wind conditions, all could take driver/wood to reach and a few will always require some wood play through the green. Mixed in with these longer holes are a handful of short par 4s, a few of which are reachable. Additionally, where Dr Mac makes up a ton of ground in creating a course which plays longer than 5700, is with the five par 3s, three of which are very short drop-shotters. I am personally not terribly keen on this sort of hole and playing three of them is certainly less than ideal, but in addition to the outstanding 13th which is decidedly an uphill one-shotter, they are critical transition holes which allowed Dr Mac to tackle some of the more challenging terrain without creating any uphill slog holes. I was especially impressed how Dr Mac got the most out of some of the prominent and not so prominent features. Three examples are:
1. Use of the stone wall on #14 creating a wonderful hole out of dead flat land.
2. The use of old railway embankment to house tees for #s 6 and 15 and create backdrops for #s 5 and 14 greens.
3. The River Wye is used for holes 10-12, #10 being one of the best holes on the course.
The course rests in a valley and as such there is some up and down. However, as mentioned above, Dr Mac cleverly avoided any arduous climbs, but Cavendish is a workout none the less. In addition to the terrain being wild and wooley at times, because of its position in the Peak District, the course receives a lot of rain and therefore the soil is heavy, moorland-like. That said, Cavendish could not be allowed to get too firm or some of the shots would be akin to playing pinball!
Map of the course.
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The first three holes, 16 & 18 occupy most of the the roller coaster land - 1st green.
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The 2nd turns back on the opening hole and climbs steadily uphill. Long drives offer a view of the tricky approach. #3 is a very good reachable par 4. The prominent centre-line bunkers are set well short of the green leaving an opening from the right. While the bunkers catch our eye, the real defence of this hole is its downhill nature carrying through the green. I note the club pushed the first cut of rough out on the right some 25 yards! This change may well result in tee shots being too far right for a decent angle of approach.
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The fairway/light rough has recently been widened. The effect is to make these bunkers much more meaningful. Interestingly, the course map shows the bunkering hard on the green which would dramatically alter how the hole plays. The photo demonstrates how a drive can be worked wide right.
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The first of three drop shot par 3s, the fourth recently had its strip bunker down the right removed. This bunker was not original as Dr Mac had two bunkers higher up the hill. After a four hole start which incredibly covers just over 1000 yards from the daily tees, the golfer is faced with one of the hardest holes on the course. This uphill 411 yarder plays closer to 450 yards. Due to a recent clearing, the hazard up the right can now be seen from the tee. The long approach to a raised green is similar to #14. Both of these greens are cleverly tied into the backing embankment.
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Heading toward Horseshoe Plantation (a large wood in the middle of the course), the 6th features (rather pathetically) one of the few fairway bunkers on the course. It would seem that for the most part, Dr Mac's fairway bunker scheme is nowhere near intact. The green has two trees guarding either side. I know at least the concept of the tree on the left was original. Like the 2nd, the 6th green really comes alive in firmish conditions because despite appearances, the surface flows away from the fairway.
The seventh cuts the woodland in two with a reachable green, though it requires a very long and shaped drive to do so. The hole is rather awkward looking from the tee and creates doubt as to how far the carry is over the creek which loops around the fairway. The ideal layup point is some 200 yards off the tee. The 8th is one of my favourite holes due to a red herring. The tee shot is obscured and suggests a strong fade is the play. However, staying left leaves the best angle of approach even if it is a bit more dangerous on that side. Many greens at Cavendish offer Sunday hole locations tucked away behind bunkers. The far right bunker looks out of sorts, but the green swings all the way round to this corner.
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The 9th is a bit of a let down because there are two other downhill short holes. The fronting bunker used to be hard against the green and look far more menacing. While the Raynor style flat bottom bunker is a more difficult hazard because of the steep face of the green pad, on a 130 yard drop shot par 3 with a pronounced tier I think the old bunker was visually much more effective. All that said, the green is of great interest!
While the front nine is solid golf with a few stand-out holes, the back nine is of a higher standard starting with the tenth. The player can take on the River Wye which plays diagonally across the fairway or play to the right, but not too far as oob lurks. If one plays to the right the chances of reaching the green are greatly reduced. One could also choose to lay-up, an option which takes oob out of the picture.
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It isn't quite clear where the green starts and the fairway ends. The forward bunkers help to obscure the approach even the though player knows they are somewhere short of the green. The net effect is the player is more likely to take an extra club to avoid the trouble.
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Like a few holes, the drive at #11 is obscured; enough so to mask the danger of hitting a driver. The approach crosses the River Wye again. Recent vegetation clearance along the river bank now allows for more choice of angles for the approach.
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The 12th comes back on the 11th and is one of the least engaging holes on the course. Though it does have an interesting trio of raised cross bunkers cutting in from the right which block a clear view of the green. These can cause trouble if the flag is up front. Why? The green is heinously difficult to two putt from the rear!
#13 is an outstanding one-shotter which works around low ground shy of the green. What the player can't see very well from the tee is the relationship of the lone bunker to the green. There is just enough space to play between sand and green and hope for a bit of a kick left. The full frontal assault is a possibility made that much more enticing with the front bunker no longer in place. At one time there was a rear bunker, which may have guarded against the play over the green hoping for kick back.
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It is often the case that I welcome flat holes mixed in with the more up and down golf. The difficulty with designing on flatter terrain near more rollicking land is that many golfers switch off and think of them as weak or breathers. A course such as Pyle and Kenfig is a case in point. There are a handful of very good holes on the relatively flat front side, yet many label them forgettable when compared to the back nine. The same might be said of Cavendish's 14th. From the tee the golfer is presented with a totally flat landscape bending around a stone wall - not terribly enticing. Upon walking 150 yards up the fairway the hole starts to reveal itself. The wall carries on left the full length of the hole and acts as a guide as to how far or near one wants to be from oob.
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It is quite clear the hole is reachable if the player challenges the wall off the tee and for the second, but it may not be the sensible play. The small two tier green (nearly all of the greens on the course are smallish) is perched into the base of a ridge with bunkers protecting the flanks. The ridge somewhat disguises the fact that Dr Mac raised this green from a completely flat fairway. Dr Mac had two bunkers in that ridge for aesthetic effect, but also aided in guiding the approach. This may not be the best hole on the course, but it is a wonderful concept that demonstrates how pre-existing features can be used to full impact.
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We now climb the ridge (an old railroad embankment) for the second time. The stellar 15th has a hint of the Eden about it. The pitch of the green pushes balls back down the hill toward the front bunkers. Any approach landing halfway up the slope of the green will do well to stay on the dance floor.
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The cracking run of holes continues on the 16th, which is more reminiscent of #s 1-3. The severely downhill approach is a bit obscured unless one hits a very good drive. Although, the elevation drop into the green is a bit too severe if conditions get anything close to firm. There is a hump short left of the green which can be cruel or fruitful.
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The only flatish par 3 on the course is a good one yet the elevation change uphill must be about a club despite appearances. Dr Mac once again uses fore bunkers to deceive and help suggest how a ground shot could be shaped. It is unclear if the left rear bunker is protecting this green or the 6th until we approach the green. The stunning finisher bends very hard right across a true elephant's graveyard. Perhaps 180 or so yards short of the green is a large dip; one wants to be either short or long, but never spot on in it. At about 430 yards the 18th is quite a challenge especially when one considers the wonky lies. The green is meant for an aerial approach and probably played more like a par 5 when the course was built in 1925.
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It is plainly obvious I think Cavendish is a remarkable course. While some of the details such as lack of fairway bunkers, narrowing of fairways and green area reduction have compromised part of Dr Mac's original vision, the single biggest issue with Cavendish is its conditioning. The course usually plays a bit wet. Be that as it may, with at least nine excellent holes, three (#s 10, 13 & 15) of which are All England candidates, Cavendish is indeed special. Whereas many modern architects would have made Cavendish a longer, more testing course and likely a much tougher walk, Dr Mac kept the yardage very low, yet used the land brilliantly to make the course seem much harder than the scorecard would indicate. The casual visitor is most welcome and can play this Dr Mac gem for a very reasonable green fee. Can golf get any better than this for the price? Does golf need to be any better than this at any price? Without reservation, Cavendish merits a 1* in my book. 2021
See Cavendish GC: A Trip Through Time
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67384.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67384.0.html)
Ciao
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Great pics Sean, I actually had a secret visit there back in April! It was the most enjoyable time I have had on a golf course this year! I actually started 3,5,3,2!! The greens are unbelievable and worth studying. I actually played 3 balls with 3 different clubs to the 15th to try and work out the best place to pitch the ball to get it close to the flag!! The 3rd ball was the closest of course!
The club recently put in a new drainage ditch on 7th which I think has ruined the hole a bit.
Mr Boon should bump this thread up as he is a Derby boy and Cavendish is in his territory and 1 of his favourites!
Ben
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Sean
Excellent tour! As per usual.
Just thought I'd add two early plans of the course, the first of which is Mackenzie's own plan for the course, followed by what is the "as built" plan of the course after construction by the British Golf Course Construction Co, so it's kind of interesting to compare the two.
The other interesting fact is that Cavendish, built by Mackenzie for the Duke of Devonshire, is probably the best documented of any of Mackenzie's courses, as the archives of the estate hold a wealth of material including plans, invoices and letters from Mackenzie to the estate managers. A new cache has recently been unearthed in the archives by Richard Atherton of Cavendish GC and the Alister Mackenzie Society.
Neil
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/CavendishAMplan.jpg)
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/CavendishGolfLinksplan.jpg)
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Sean
Excellent tour! As per usual.
Just thought I'd add two early plans of the course, the first of which is Mackenzie's own plan for the course, followed by what is the "as built" plan of the course after construction by the British Golf Course Construction Co, so it's kind of interesting to compare the two.
The other interesting fact is that Cavendish, built by Mackenzie for the Duke of Devonshire, is probably the best documented of any of Mackenzie's courses, as the archives of the estate hold a wealth of material including plans, invoices and letters from Mackenzie to the estate managers. A new cache has recently been unearthed in the archives by Richard Atherton of Cavendish GC and the Alister Mackenzie Society.
Neil
Neil
Thank you very much for the maps. I must say the bunker schemes are wildly different from each other and from how the course looks today. I am not sure a single fairway bunker from those maps survives.
Ciao
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Thanks very much, Sean, another truly great photo tour. I had never heard of Cavendish before, but I really like what I see in those pics. WOW
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Well, I knew it would happen! Sean Arble beat me to putting up photos of the gorgeous little Cavendish! I knew I should have got up there this summer...
But seriously Sean, great to see Cavendish on here (I think Tommy W put some photos up a couple of years ago?)
And thanks to Neil for the plans. Not sure everyone will have noticed but MacKenzie did design it to originally be 2 loops of 9 holes, and I thought it may have played like that for a while, but it looks from the as built plan that it never was? Another interesting point from the plan is that MacKenzie designed the first 3 holes to all be much longer but then it looks like they didnt develop beyond one of the stone walls (marked by the dashed red line on the attachement below) and the 4th green was originally on the other side of the stream at the bottom of the gully?
Here is a link from the website to some old photos of the course:
http://www.cavendishgolfclub.com/oldcavphotos/
Bit busy at work so I'll have to keep this brief but thanks again Sean,
Cheers,
James
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Well, I knew it would happen! Sean Arble beat me to putting up photos of the gorgeous little Cavendish! I knew I should have got up there this summer...
But seriously Sean, great to see Cavendish on here (I think Tommy W put some photos up a couple of years ago?)
And thanks to Neil for the plans. Not sure everyone will have noticed but MacKenzie did design it to originally be 2 loops of 9 holes, and I thought it may have played like that for a while, but it looks from the as built plan that it never was? Another interesting point from the plan is that MacKenzie designed the first 3 holes to all be much longer but then it looks like they didnt develop beyond one of the stone walls (marked by the dashed red line on the attachement below) and the 4th green was originally on the other side of the stream at the bottom of the gully?
Here is a link from the website to some old photos of the course:
http://www.cavendishgolfclub.com/oldcavphotos/ (http://www.cavendishgolfclub.com/oldcavphotos/)
Bit busy at work so I'll have to keep this brief but thanks again Sean,
Cheers,
James
James
I noticed the stone wall was in front of 1 and 3 greens on the '23 map because of the odd angle for the 4th which seems to have been located in what would likely have been a bowl like green. However, it doesn't look as though the routing for 5 or 16 are different from now.
Ciao
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Sean
The two plans were indeed done by different people. The first plan is clearly in Mackenzie's hand, while the second, was most likely drawn by a surveyor I think. I have the club's history book and will take a look in there and see why the course was modified to what it is today.
Neil
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Oops. I though this was a thread on bicycle sprinting young gun phenom Mark Cavendish. Too bad.
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Thanks again Sean for the photos and Neil for the maps.
Looking through your photos Sean is the first time I’ve seen the course for a couple of years so a nice refresher.
The 2nd is a very narrow green, with a very severe left to right slope, with a stone wall hard behind and OOB behind that. Just to ease you into the round…
The 3rd is a great driveable par 4, but being a drop shot, if you have a lash its very easy to be very wild from the fairway or green. However, its short enough that even modest hitter stands a chance.
I’ve always loved the ridge that acts as a backdrop for the 5th and 14th greens. The 5th is over more meadow like ground but I think it’s a great par 4.
Your photo of the 7th with a stream running across the fairway threw me for a minute. Unless I’m cracking up that’s a fairly new feature, and it certainly doesn’t show on either of Neil’s plans. Looked at the Google aerial and there appears to be a shallow ditch running across the fairway which was cut as fairway. I assume that’s where the ditch is now?
The 9th green was recently rebuilt by Steven Marnoch, though it had apparently been rebuilt in the 60s? (I think when he was still at Gaunt & Marnoch)
http://www.golfmarnoch.com/golf-course-country-cavendish.html
Could be a great little hole but just doesn’t work for me?
Now to the tenth hole. This has always been a favourite of mine, now as some of you on here would say “Callng Tom Doak”. I believe this is a favourite hole of his as he lists it as the 10th hole in his 18 best MacKenzie holes, in his Confidential Guide. He also gives the hole a short paragraph and a nice picture in the “Life and Works…” he co-authored.
I agree Sean that 12 is probably one of the lesser holes, but I’m sure its still a pretty fun green. 13 is a great uphill par 3, which when I was younger and just getting interested in golf architecture I always assumed to be a bit Redan like, and though it is clearly missing some of the key features, a drawn approach taking on the little bunker short right can run all the way to a back left hole position, when a high shot would struggle to hold the green. And 14 is a great par 5. It may be quite flat which makes it out of character with a lot of Derbyshire golf, but the dry stone wall is very much of the area! I have to admit I don’t recall 15 being that much of a drop shot, but what a green!
Lastly, the 18th with its rumpled fairway, certainly leaves some interesting stances if you happen to have a long club in your hands.
Growing up in Derbyshire, Cavendish always had a reputation of small, and very fast, slick greens. There were many stories of people putting off the 14th green that is raised up and having a 50 yard pitch back, though I don’t think they are so fast these days?
In “the life and works…” Tom Doak mentions that this is one of MacKenzies more polished courses from that period of his work, so, what are you all waiting for?
Cheers,
James
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Thanks again Sean for the photos and Neil for the maps.
Looking through your photos Sean is the first time I’ve seen the course for a couple of years so a nice refresher.
The 2nd is a very narrow green, with a very severe left to right slope, with a stone wall hard behind and OOB behind that. Just to ease you into the round…
The 3rd is a great driveable par 4, but being a drop shot, if you have a lash its very easy to be very wild from the fairway or green. However, its short enough that even modest hitter stands a chance.
I’ve always loved the ridge that acts as a backdrop for the 5th and 14th greens. The 5th is over more meadow like ground but I think it’s a great par 4.
Your photo of the 7th with a stream running across the fairway threw me for a minute. Unless I’m cracking up that’s a fairly new feature, and it certainly doesn’t show on either of Neil’s plans. Looked at the Google aerial and there appears to be a shallow ditch running across the fairway which was cut as fairway. I assume that’s where the ditch is now?
The 9th green was recently rebuilt by Steven Marnoch, though it had apparently been rebuilt in the 60s? (I think when he was still at Gaunt & Marnoch)
http://www.golfmarnoch.com/golf-course-country-cavendish.html
Could be a great little hole but just doesn’t work for me?
Now to the tenth hole. This has always been a favourite of mine, now as some of you on here would say “Callng Tom Doak”. I believe this is a favourite hole of his as he lists it as the 10th hole in his 18 best MacKenzie holes, in his Confidential Guide. He also gives the hole a short paragraph and a nice picture in the “Life and Works…” he co-authored.
I agree Sean that 12 is probably one of the lesser holes, but I’m sure its still a pretty fun green. 13 is a great uphill par 3, which when I was younger and just getting interested in golf architecture I always assumed to be a bit Redan like, and though it is clearly missing some of the key features, a drawn approach taking on the little bunker short right can run all the way to a back left hole position, when a high shot would struggle to hold the green. And 14 is a great par 5. It may be quite flat which makes it out of character with a lot of Derbyshire golf, but the dry stone wall is very much of the area! I have to admit I don’t recall 15 being that much of a drop shot, but what a green!
Lastly, the 18th with its rumpled fairway, certainly leaves some interesting stances if you happen to have a long club in your hands.
Growing up in Derbyshire, Cavendish always had a reputation of small, and very fast, slick greens. There were many stories of people putting off the 14th green that is raised up and having a 50 yard pitch back, though I don’t think they are so fast these days?
In “the life and works…” Tom Doak mentions that this is one of MacKenzies more polished courses from that period of his work, so, what are you all waiting for?
Cheers,
James
James
The 9th green doesn't appear to be anything like the work up done for the restoration. Do you know what happened?
Your comments prompted me to get out Doak's Life and Times. He states that hugging the left on the 10th is the best play (if one can pull it off) because then the carry over the mini cliff face is shorter. I reckon its best to be in the middle of the fairway with an up the gut approach which doesn't need to cover the left or right bunkers. BTW, there is so much rough on the left of the carry plateau in the landing zone that it doesn't really pay to cut the corner. I found out to my detriment after what I thought was a superb drive to the 150 marker. Heavy sigh. What are your thoughts?
Ciao
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Sean,
I was suprised to see how lush sme of the photos looked and some of the thickish rough. Last time I played 10 it certainly was the case that the tighter you are with the drive the better. I played conservative and had about a 5 iron in while my brother took on as much as he could and only had a sandwedge to the green. I'm sure the fairway must have been wider.
I also noticed the rough short and left of the 3rd, when I remeber that being cut to fairway length? Maybe someone is trying to toghen things up? Perhaps they are getting worried that the length of the course is a problem when they should leave it as it is...
Sorry, not sure what happened to the 9th, but I remeber liking the previous version better?
Cheers,
James
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Excellent pics as usual Sean. Thanks for posting.
I've been meaning to get down to Cavendish for some time now but events keep conspiring against me. I actually entered a open day recently but had to pull out due to work commitments.
Your photo tour will make me try harder!
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Sean, I played Cavendish a few years ago with Mark Rowlinson. I was a delight. Here is alink to some pictures I posted of the course.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34493.0/
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Sean, I played Cavendish a few years ago with Mark Rowlinson. I was a delight. Here is alink to some pictures I posted of the course.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34493.0/
Tommy
Thanks for the link. Its good to see the course in the sun.
Ciao
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I played at Cavendish last Thursday with the architect Jonathan Gaunt, who is a member there. Six greens were out of play, as the club is doing drainage work on them (six others were done at this time last year), but it was still a great pleasure. Just a few comments to add to the remarks made in this and other threads on the course:
* The ridge behind the fifth and fourteenth greens is actually a railway embankment. Apparently, before the course was built, the Duke of Devonshire had been planning to build a railway into Buxton from that side. You can see, if you stand on the embankment, the cutting through the moors that had also been started. The way the fourteenth green is banked into the ridge is very, very clever. Not only does it means that the green, which would otherwise stand terribly proud of the flat fairway, is less jarring, that's also quite clearly where MacKenzie got the fill to build it - a lot of fill for 1925! I love the use of the dry stone wall - you need to hug the inside to maximise your chances of getting home in two.
* 9 green was indeed rebuilt by Steve Marnoch, Jonathan's former business partner. It's the only USGA green on the course. I like the contours of the green, but I agree with others that the front bunker looks out of place. It could use a higher sandline. Or one might question whether it needs to be there at all?
* MacKenzie's original plan (on display in the clubhouse) calls for the third green to be built in the field behind where it actually is, which would, I guess, have added forty or fifty yards to the hole. But for some reason, the club was unable to use that field. I think the second tee was in the field too.
* I wasn't as taken with the tenth as some others. Partly this was just not liking that part of the property as much as the rest - more meadow, less moor, and coarser turf, but also I felt the long driver was unduly rewarded.
* It's a case study in routing - using par threes to get across the severe ground, getting an amazing amount of challenge from 5700 yards and making a fairly steep property into a very comfortable walk.
* 15 green is wonderful, but it'd be terrifying in summer with a dry, fast green.
* and the 18th hole is superb, among the best finishers I've come across.
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Thank you very much for the wonderful pics and the great deal of additional information about the course. I did not know this course before today and now will be adding this course on my next visit. Thank you for opening my eyes to what looks like an absolute gem!!!
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Adam
Well said. Did not know about the railway embankment but it makes sense. Shame you had 6 greens out of play.
Really enjoyed my visit there in April and I got to play with the aforesaid Jonathon Gaunt as my partner and his chip-ins proved very handy!
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Adam,
I never knew about the proposed railway embankment that became the embankment for the 5gr/6t and 14gr/15t so thank you for that. I'll have a closer look next time I get up there.
And yes, the 15 green is terrifying in the summer when its playing very fast!
I was planning to be there recently with a few fellow GCAers, but when we found out that 6 greens were out of action we decided to postpone till the spring. Perhaps we could turn that into a mini get together as this delightful course always seems to peak peoples interest.
Cheers,
James
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James
From your earlier post with the link to the club website and the old photos was fantastic. The greens look as though they have shrunk over the years and what is now fringe looks like putting surface back then. In one of the pics, the green (don't know which one) is raised and the golfer is putting to a hole which is front of the raised area and what would most certainly not be green now.
Certainly looks a great course and worth a play.
Niall
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Niall
It is lots of fun and well worth a trip south from sunny Scotland ;D
Perhaps head through Leeds and visit with Nick at Alwoodley?
Neil
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If you do arrange a get together at Cavendish please count me in as interested. You could easily add Reddish Vale to it for a 36-hole MacKenzie day for very reasonable money - for those of you who are fit! Count me out for 36 in the day. RVGC is early Mac, Cavendish late. They make an interesting comparison.
I played Cavendish with a good low handicapper a few years ago in a good dry summer (rare in this part) and, with a running fairway and faster greens, it played significantly harder than usual in my experience. The slopes took many seemingly good drives off into less than ideal territory. My friend - low handicap, remember - 5-putted the 8th. Its slopes can be confounding.
Remember also to seek out the relics of MacKenzie's putting course in the park beside the opera house - there is a thread and some photos somewhere in GCA if anyone has the time to find it.
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I'd definitely be interested in a get together at Cavendish as I've been meaning to get there for two or three years now.
Mark's suggestion of a 36 hole MacKenzie day by adding Reddish Vale also appeals!
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If the opportunity presents itself, play Reddish Vale, the earlier course, first.
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I was fortunate to play Cavendish once again this past weekend. While the course was unquestionably wet, I thought it held up remarkably well. Of course, the bunkers were flooded and the greens were bumpy, but that was to be expected given the rain the course received. Anyway, my high opinion of the course was slightly raised. I can't wait to actually see it in good nick some day!
Take a look at the updated pix.
Ciao
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The course looks like great fun, but do you think Mackenzie would be satisfied with its evolved state?
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Sean,
Thanks for the updated pics.
I'd forgotten about the drainage work to the greens until re re-reading back through this thread. I noticed that a few times when I repaired pitch marks, the soil just beneath the surface felt rather gritty, the only way I can describe it. Nevertheless, considering the amount of rain the course had recently, it was in remarkably good condition.
We should try and wait to play after a long dry spell next time to see just how those Derbyshire hills, and the MacKenzie green play when they aren't so wet and lush!
Cheers,
James
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We have had a very wet spring and early summer in the North West and Cavendish will get a lot more rain than even we have had on the Cheshire plain.
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The course looks like great fun, but do you think Mackenzie would be satisfied with its evolved state?
Tommy Mac
No, I don't think Dr Mac would be satisfied to see all the fairway bunkers removed and some of the greens shrunk. But I am also not sure how satisfied he was with the course when it was completed as I don't think his initial design(s) were accepted. The club is and was probably too modest for Dr Mac's ambitions.
Boony - yes, lets try to do Cavendish in Aug/Sept. Shoot me a few Sundays then which worlkfor you.
Ciao
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The course looks like great fun, but do you think Mackenzie would be satisfied with its evolved state?
Tommy Mac
No, I don't think Dr Mac would be satisfied to see all the fairway bunkers removed and some of the greens shrunk. But I am also not sure how satisfied he was with the course when it was completed as I don't think his initial design(s) were accepted. The club is and was probably too modest for Dr Mac's ambitions.
Boony - yes, lets try to do Cavendish in Aug/Sept. Shoot me a few Sundays then which worlkfor you.
Ciao
I'm not so sure about that statement Sean... I believe there are a couple of movers in the club who are right now pushing to reinstate MacKenzie elements to the course... I will need to make a visit soon...
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The course looks like great fun, but do you think Mackenzie would be satisfied with its evolved state?
Tommy Mac
No, I don't think Dr Mac would be satisfied to see all the fairway bunkers removed and some of the greens shrunk. But I am also not sure how satisfied he was with the course when it was completed as I don't think his initial design(s) were accepted. The club is and was probably too modest for Dr Mac's ambitions.
Boony - yes, lets try to do Cavendish in Aug/Sept. Shoot me a few Sundays then which worlkfor you.
Ciao
I'm not so sure about that statement Sean... I believe there are a couple of movers in the club who are right now pushing to reinstate MacKenzie elements to the course... I will need to make a visit soon...
Ally
Well I hope the movers can convince the club that there is a better course on the plan than in the ground.
Ciao
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Ally
Boony and I had a go yesterday. Conditions are still very disappointing and nowhere near matching the quality of the design. Maybe there are changes afoot, but I couldn't see any noticeable improvement.
All, please see the updated tour.
Ciao
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Ally
Boony and I had a go yesterday. Conditions are still very disappointing and nowhere near matching the quality of the design. Maybe there are changes afoot, but I couldn't see any noticeable improvement.
All, please see the updated tour.
Ciao
Yes Sean,
I believe the movers were left with nowhere to move to... On the backburner for now I believe...
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Ally
Boony and I had a go yesterday. Conditions are still very disappointing and nowhere near matching the quality of the design. Maybe there are changes afoot, but I couldn't see any noticeable improvement.
All, please see the updated tour.
Ciao
Yes Sean,
I believe the movers were left with nowhere to move to... On the backburner for now I believe...
Yes, I must admit the club/course has the outward appearance of being in long-term decline.
Ciao
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I finally played Cavendish in decent conditions! The course was still lush, but the greens were firm and running close to the their max without being stupid. What a difference! I was astounded and utterly confounded by the some of the putts. It rather reminded me of Beau Desert and that is high praise. I realize Cavendish is a bit off the beaten path, but a trip to the Peak District is a great pleasure in itself. A game at wonderful Cavendish is the icing on the cake.
See Updated pix.
Ciao
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Sean,
Glad you managed to get to play Cavendish in the firm conditions I remember from my many rounds there as a junior golfer. It is quite a difference to the wet and receptive conditions of most of my / your / our recent rounds there. Some of the greens really take on a life of their own, as do a few of the fairways, especially 16!
I recall seeing an article in a magazine recently that they had done some work to the bunkers around 4? The strip bunker up the right which was always washed out was turned into a grassy hollow with a small pot bunker at the rear end of this? Have you any photos of the 4th green?
Cheers,
James
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Sean,
Glad you managed to get to play Cavendish in the firm conditions I remember from my many rounds there as a junior golfer. It is quite a difference to the wet and receptive conditions of most of my / your / our recent rounds there. Some of the greens really take on a life of their own, as do a few of the fairways, especially 16!
I recall seeing an article in a magazine recently that they had done some work to the bunkers around 4? The strip bunker up the right which was always washed out was turned into a grassy hollow with a small pot bunker at the rear end of this? Have you any photos of the 4th green?
Cheers,
James
Boony
No pic of #4, but I can confirm the strip bunker is no more. I also think new sand is in at least some of the bunkers. I didn't really notice until 16, the sand is definitely whiter. The 3rd hole is far wider now. The fairway isn't wider, but the first cut of rough down the right is about an extra 25 yards. I think the club is trying to encourage people to play that direction away from the 2nd fairway.
There is talk of shifting the fairway corridor more left on #16 - bring OOB more into play and less traffic down the right where the path is. There is also talk of different bunkering on #6.
Mind you, I found out there are only two greenstaff with a part time kid helping out in summer. Its an incredible amount of work for such a small crew. That said, I think the club in the process of forming an artisan group to help out.
All in all, very impressive and a huge eye opener concerning the greens. They quite simply do not look anything like as severe as they are. One must chip, putt and watch others to get an idea of their quality. What a revelation.
Ciao
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Sean,
"All in all, very impressive and a huge eye opener concerning the greens. ……… What a revelation."
And Mackenzie might have praised the keepers of the green whilst quoting Revelation 2:3 "And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted."
What I found telling about your report is just how, with relatively few resources, a course can start to be returned to the architects intent if the will and desire is there. I always imagined that any course would be zealous in jealously guarding and promoting their designer's plan … doesn't seem so though. Architects must tear their hair out!
Cheers Colin
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Just used the search function to read more about the course and there was a thread from a couple of years ago discussing Cavendish selling itself to group on. A couple of years on despite Sean's positive comments about the course (it's been a good spring / early summer for courses), it still seems precarious to me. 2 green staff is not sustainable and the course will only decay.
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I was at Cavendish on Friday at the same event as Sean and concur with his thoughts on the greens. Such fun!
The club has clearly been on its uppers for some time, but the course is in amazing condition considering onlly two staff look after it. Cavendish struggles for local members because Buxton is a small impoverished town in the middle of the hills with terrible weather most of the time and two golf clubs. That is almost certainly one too many. Unfortunately Cavendish - with the better course by far - is the club which is the more vulnerable.
All fans of golf course architecture should support Cavendish by visiting or considering country membership. It is amazingly cheap but a few more country members would make a massive difference to the club.
Unfortunately I don't qualify as I live only 15 miles away! I do play there as often as possible, however. On a fine day the golf is exhilerating.
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2 green staff is not sustainable and the course will only decay.
Ryan,
what facts and actual experience of the case at Cavendish are you basing this statement on? I admit it is not usual but why can it not be sustainable. How would having more greenstaff that the club cannot afford be more sustainable?
Jon
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Common sense Jon.
Two green staff on a course other than some goat field is not conducive to even basic playing conditions. Add in paternity, sickness and holiday and you have a course decaying.
You can find me some tin pot example in the highlands, but most have 4-6 green staff for a reason.
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I recently came across an article regarding Cavendish in a magazine called Pitchcare (Apr/May 2014), some of the key points go on to explain the numbers of staff and the reasons for this beyond just money:
- The club has never had a large greenkeeping staff
- Currently at 2 full time, with a couple of casual brought in over the summer.
- The climate there means a very short growing season (mid May to end Sept) which is a reason for only needing the small greenkeeping staff.
- Even at the height of the growing season they are able to cover all mowing operations, cutting the rough, fairways, tees and approaches twice a week, with the greens cut or rolled six times a week.
- Members volunteer their services to help out, especially with some of the winter projects such as the recent work to the 4th greenside bunkers.
In addition to this:
- They are planning a number of course improvements heading into their centenary year in 2025, with the help of member and golf course architect Jonathan Gaunt.
- A lot of this will be clearing areas of vegetation that have become overgrown due to greenstaff numbers.
- All bunkers will be redesigned / remodelled.
- Some new tees.
- Improved drainage!
- JCB, "keen to get into the golf market" (which I'm sure Robin Hiseman knows all about ::) ) have donated a small excavator and dumper truck to help with these works.
I've always found Cavendish to be in good condition, especially considering the cost of a green fee and the number of staff and as a junior playing there regularly as I did, it always had the best greens we played all year. My only issue in recent years has been the amount of rain the Buxton climate has received, especially through the summer months, has made the course very lush and receptive, which is why I'm so glad Sean has got to experience it in a dryer and firmer state.
I understand the concerns, and I have them myself, but fingers crossed all will be well at this delightful MacKenzie course!
Cheers,
James
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Right. So two greenstaff is actually four greenstaff. Plus free labour from the members.
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I was at Cavendish on Friday at the same event as Sean and concur with his thoughts on the greens. Such fun!
The club has clearly been on its uppers for some time, but the course is in amazing condition considering onlly two staff look after it. Cavendish struggles for local members because Buxton is a small impoverished town in the middle of the hills with terrible weather most of the time and two golf clubs. That is almost certainly one too many. Unfortunately Cavendish - with the better course by far - is the club which is the more vulnerable.
All fans of golf course architecture should support Cavendish by visiting or considering country membership. It is amazingly cheap but a few more country members would make a massive difference to the club.
Unfortunately I don't qualify as I live only 15 miles away! I do play there as often as possible, however. On a fine day the golf is exhilerating.
Duncan
You refer to Cavendish being the the most vulnerable of the two clubs in town, why is that ? Surely it can't be because more golfers want to be a member of the club with the inferior course ?
Niall
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James,
thanks for the informative answer. This is the way many clubs do/used to work.
Ryan, your parents must be very proud.
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James,
thanks for the informative answer. This is the way many clubs do/used to work.
Ryan, your parents must be very proud.
Jon
My apologies. My references were inappropriate.
As far as I know, my parents aren't.
I'd be interested in hearing how two greenstaff alone would maintain an inland course in England during the growing season. What would a typical fortnight work pattern look like? How would this be impacted by holiday, paternity and sickness?
All these remarkable pitchcare mag stories remind me of Monty Pythons the four Yorkshireman. ''Luxury, we only have a flymo and a sheep''
Cavendish agree with me hence summer workers and volunteers.
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I was at Cavendish on Friday at the same event as Sean and concur with his thoughts on the greens. Such fun!
The club has clearly been on its uppers for some time, but the course is in amazing condition considering onlly two staff look after it. Cavendish struggles for local members because Buxton is a small impoverished town in the middle of the hills with terrible weather most of the time and two golf clubs. That is almost certainly one too many. Unfortunately Cavendish - with the better course by far - is the club which is the more vulnerable.
All fans of golf course architecture should support Cavendish by visiting or considering country membership. It is amazingly cheap but a few more country members would make a massive difference to the club.
Unfortunately I don't qualify as I live only 15 miles away! I do play there as often as possible, however. On a fine day the golf is exhilerating.
Duncan
You refer to Cavendish being the the most vulnerable of the two clubs in town, why is that ? Surely it can't be because more golfers want to be a member of the club with the inferior course ?
Niall
Niall,
You must be well aware that quality of architecture is just one of many factors which golfers take into account when deciding upon a club to join.
Indeed, while we on here rave about places like Cavendish, many golfers look at such courses with disdain.
Only 5600 yards? Not a proper course.
Too easy - a wedge into most greens!
A bit tatty around the edges.
A goat track!
These are just a few comments I've heard about Cavendish from avid golfers. Not everybody gets it!
The other course in Buxton is perfectly OK but a little dull. A bog-standard parkland course. Lots of people like that sort of thing.
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Ryan,
As James' post explained with Cavendish the two greenstaff keep on top of cutting okay even in the main growing season and when the growth slows down they will certainly have time for other things. I do not see anything wrong in members doing tasks such as bunker raking, divot filing, ball washer duties, etc. or the club having an artisans membership if this makes the club financially viable or gives the members a better connection with their club. I have said on previous threads, one of the problems, IMO that many clubs have these days is they have turned a loyal membership into a paying client base.
I am genuinely interested in you answers to the questions I asked.
Oh, Flymo and a sheep. Luxury!!! We had to eat the grass short ourselves ;)
Jon
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Ryan,
As James' post explained with Cavendish the two greenstaff keep on top of cutting okay even in the main growing season and when the growth slows down they will certainly have time for other things. I do not see anything wrong in members doing tasks such as bunker raking, divot filing, ball washer duties, etc. or the club having an artisans membership if this makes the club financially viable or gives the members a better connection with their club. I have said on previous threads, one of the problems, IMO that many clubs have these days is they have turned a loyal membership into a paying client base.
I am genuinely interested in you answers to the questions I asked.
Oh, Flymo and a sheep. Luxury!!! We had to eat the grass short ourselves ;)
Jon
Neither do I. Indeed with two greenstaff, I see it as essential. So do Cavendish. Therefore it's become a moot point in relation to this specific Club.
In answer to your questions: The same as you. None. I should have been clear that I was thinking in general terms to save the pedants amongst us from the time honoured highlighting of the 1 in a 1000 exception to the rule.
Allow me therefore to quantify: In general terms, an English club with an inland course operating SOLELY with two greenkeepers during the growing season whilst attempting to compete in a saturated market, is in the latter stages of death cycle.
Re: your final point about Clubs turning loyal members into paying clients.
Why would a members club do this?
Specifically, what is it that they have done to change this?
I think you have this the wrong way round. The membership has changed the clubs. The clubs haven't changed the outlook of members. The same loyal members are still around, supporting everything, coming to divoting evenings etc. they are just twenty years older and sadly dying out. It is a generation thing. The new golfers see themselves as clients, rather than any desire from the Clubs. The 'me' culture pervades most aspects of modern life and golf clubs are no exception.
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Ryan,
yes, I think we are of a similar opinion. My point was that if a club chose to run the greenkeeping with just two staff this would be possible if the club wanted to and the conditions allowed. A good quality course could be maintained though maybe not world class but then very few are even with many more GKs.
As to club culture. I have found that many clubs through the 90's and the early 2000's were in the position of having many people on a long waiting list with cash burning a hole in their pocket. This combined with the professionalization of club management led to many clubs hiking the standard membership fees knowing they could replace any dropouts. Now many clubs are in the position of charging close to £1K yearly subs as apposed to £400 ish of the past. AT £400 many members would still pay even if only playing 10 rounds or so a year where as For a £1K they won't. Also at £1K I expect excellent playing conditions all year round which most clubs can not offer.
You are correct about the me, me, me generation though.
'Eating grass. Luxury. We had to scrape the grass down with our fingernails till they bled. Youth of today ::)
Jon
Jon
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On the day before this years BUDA a few of us gathered here.
I'm short of time but I just wanted to put on record that it was "Probably the best £20 I've ever spent."
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The wife and I played there on Sept. 11 and it was great value for money! The greens had been aerated two week prior and were completely acceptable; the members were indicating they were scary fast before the aeration and I don't have any reason to doubt that. The rest of the course was in great shape, I can see how things might get a little soggy in the winter time.
I'll certainly echo many of the previous comments, a great routing on a hilly sight but it was still a delightful walk; both the wife and I walk and carry and she remarked how it was an easy journey with no hill climbing. The 10, 11 and 14 are worth the price of admission alone! The 18th could be one of the best finishing holes on the planet.
Buxton was a very pleasant surprise, I wasn't expecting a 19th century Spa Town built out of granite, the buildings in the town were quite impressive. We got a great rate at the Palace Hotel by using booking.com the day before. The meal at the Brasserie was one of the best on our trip, highly recommended.
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Pete
Its interesting that you cite 14 for praise. Never did a hole look so dull from the tee with its complexity altering drastically once 150 yards up the fairway.
Ciao
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I happened on this short video about Cavendish on Youtube. It includes some nice old photos etc. Thought it might be of interest to those tuning herein.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DHQkueHw2WA
Atb
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Thanks, interesting to see a course like Cavendish on film. I've seen some of the old black and white photos before, but I like the very last one which I believe is of the 14th green. Dont see bunkers like that behind the green too often these days...
Cheers,
James
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That 14th green looks to be much wilder than what exists today. First off, there appears to be a fairway level front section of the green.
Ciao
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The small two tier green (nearly all of the greens on the course are smallish) is perched into the base of a ridge with bunkers protecting the flanks. The ridge somewhat disguises the fact that Dr Mac raised this green from a completely flat fairway. Dr Mac had two bunkers in that ridge which in typical Dr Mac style was over the top and reduced the value of the ridge as the back drop. I am not sure who removed the bunkers, but it was a wise decision.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2816/33149423414_7596052828_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2816/33149423414_7596052828_b.jpg)
This is an old photo of how the bunkering was originally. I disagree with Sean on the back bunkers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48238015251_2ae6699d2f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2guCrm8)Hole #14 (https://flic.kr/p/2guCrm8) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158050963@N02/), on Flickr
A little bit of magic from Tommy Nac...
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1843/29547321547_12b5583458_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/M1ZKhp)14 Tommy (https://flic.kr/p/M1ZKhp) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158050963@N02/), on Flickr
There is some traction within the club to restore such original features as finances permit.
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The bigger shame, Duncan, is that your historic photo shows a much larger area, including all of the false front and an area at the bottom of the slope, cut as green. The player on the right appears to be putting across what is now fairway! The loss of green area on some of these old courses is a great shame.
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I quite agree Mark.
Such adulteration is almost certainly the result of greens chairmen in byegone years suffering repeatedly from poorly hit approach shots rolling all the way back down to the fairway. Such "unfairness" must of course be eradicated.
Similarly the "unfairness" of an overhit approach shot being unduly punished probably condemned the back bunkers to death.
I despise such thinking. If you can see a bunker or false front to a green yet still fall foul of it how can that be "unfair"?
It's just an inexpertly executed shot.
This is a par 5 green. It SHOULD be bloody tough to hold from 200 yards. There is always a safer, easier way to play the hole.
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Great photo comparison Duncan and some wonderful bit of work by Tommy. Well done.
I usually play at a couple of UK MacKenzie's, both of which when built had extensive rear bunkering, and have myself been undertaking quite a bit of 'the-n-now' photo comparison work.
Photos taken just prior to WW2 clearly show the rear bunkering but photos not long after the war don't show them, nor as many fairway bunkers.
My suspicion is that manpower and money for maintenance just wasn't available after WW2 and in the usual 'needs must' style course features that weren't visited as often were sacrificed in order that the limited resources available could be focused elsewhere on the course. I suspect the same happened in relation to the mowing of the false green fronts.
atb
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The small two tier green (nearly all of the greens on the course are smallish) is perched into the base of a ridge with bunkers protecting the flanks. The ridge somewhat disguises the fact that Dr Mac raised this green from a completely flat fairway. Dr Mac had two bunkers in that ridge which in typical Dr Mac style was over the top and reduced the value of the ridge as the back drop. I am not sure who removed the bunkers, but it was a wise decision.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2816/33149423414_7596052828_b.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2816/33149423414_7596052828_b.jpg)
This is an old photo of how the bunkering was originally. I disagree with Sean on the back bunkers.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1877/44435578372_9c26340a5f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2aGBXkA)14th Hole 1925 (https://flic.kr/p/2aGBXkA) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158050963@N02/), on Flickr
A little bit of magic from Tommy Nac...
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1843/29547321547_12b5583458_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/M1ZKhp)14 Tommy (https://flic.kr/p/M1ZKhp) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158050963@N02/), on Flickr
There is some traction within the club to restore such original features as finances permit.
Duncan
Ignoring issues about money priorities and the lack of fairway bunkers which Dr Mac envisioned that could better serve a thin budget (not to mention the dreadful bunkering on 10)...the back bunkers weren't just aesthetic in terms of tying the railroad embankment into the green. When playing the hole, that green is raised quite a bit, so much so that one must guess where the rear of the green is. Those back bunkers were a distance aid. Its a philosophical issue imo. Spend the money to provide not in play pleasing rear bunker distance aid which links the green and embarkment or not. I generally don't like the concept. The other issue is the style of the bunkers. Dr Mac style bunkers as in the photo (which look to be a maintenance nightmare) are nothing like what is currently in place. I am not in the least convinced grass faced pots would look good to the rear of the green. And to alter the style for one hole is opening a huge can of worms.
BTW..is it my eyes or does that green look far more tilted left than is currently the case?
Ciao
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BTW..is it my eyes or does that green look far more tilted left than is currently the case?
Good spot.
As an aside, from looking at the roofline of the farmhouse on the hill and the lines of the walls etc it seems as if one of the photos (maybe both) isn't taken or published from the exact horizontal, ie it's tilted somewhat. This is quite a common issue when doing then-and-now comparisons. Modern lenses vrs older age ones also have an effect even assuming that any comparison photos are taken from the exact same location.
atb
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I've rotated and squished the image a bit vertically. Think it looks a bit better proportioned.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1865/30631608738_d5c5174de2_o.jpg)
Cheers,
F.
Fellow on the right certainly seems to be putting from a very low teir!
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The ridge is 6-7 feet higher than the back of the green.
I think the hole looks better without the sand. Sand filled bunkers back there would look like something Dye did at French Lick.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1857/43609103445_bb2cc07f21_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29rA48T)IMG_1662 (https://flic.kr/p/29rA48T)
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I've rotated and squished the image a bit vertically. Think it looks a bit better proportioned.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1865/30631608738_d5c5174de2_o.jpg)
Cheers,
F.
Fellow on the right certainly seems to be putting from a very low teir!
FBD
Thanks. From the angle of the old photo I must admit with that lower green tier the set piece looks good. There is a lovely flow from fairway to the house on the hill.
Man...I love this course!
Ciao
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Before playing Hallamshire the Winter Tour dropped in on Cavendish after a four year hiatus..most impressive as ever. On the way to the 1st tee I could see across to the 7th...a view that was previously blocked by trees. The 16th can also be seen from the 1-4 area of the course as trees ave been removed there as well. Sadly, nothing has been done to reveal the full splendour of the 18th from the tee, but maybe one day. On the other hand, the 9th is growing on me! It is also notable and most important in terms of playability, the 11th has been cleared a bit by the river...making the risky play up the left something that can be rewarded with a better angle of approach. Anyway, I strongly urge one and all to make the trip to Cavendish.
See the significantly updated tour.
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41162.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41162.0.html)
Previous Stops:
Hallamshire
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66568.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66568.0.html)
Cleeve Cloud
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html)
Saunton East
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51415.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51415.0.html)
Saunton West
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66490.msg1587657.html#msg1587657 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66490.msg1587657.html#msg1587657)
Aberdovey
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43564.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43564.0.html)
Westward Ho!
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66480.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,66480.0.html)
Planned Stops
Barton on Sea
Isle of Purbeck
Ciao
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I've rotated and squished the image a bit vertically. Think it looks a bit better proportioned.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1865/30631608738_d5c5174de2_o.jpg)
Cheers,
F.
Fellow on the right certainly seems to be putting from a very low teir!
I thought the exact same thing! Could this approach have been part of the original green?!
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Thanks for the update. A little bit of cleaning up can really make a difference.
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It was a pleasure for Dan and me to accompany you at Cavendish Sean, and I'm delighted with the photos you took. Low autumn sun and golden trees certainly bring out the course a treat.
Your comments on the recent tree clearing have been well received at the club and hopefully will spur further work in a similar vein. We have some spectacular views across the course but many others are still shrouded in superfluous tree growth.
We also have some wonderful Scots Pines making up the bulk of Horseshoe Plantation in the middle of the course. Unfortunately over the years thousands of extraneous silver birch trees have been allowed to take root and now obscure the fine specimen trees. I have plans to go on a chainsaw training course in January and get my licence! ;D
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It was a pleasure for Dan and me to accompany you at Cavendish Sean, and I'm delighted with the photos you took. Low autumn sun and golden trees certainly bring out the course a treat.
Your comments on the recent tree clearing have been well received at the club and hopefully will spur further work in a similar vein. We have some spectacular views across the course but many others are still shrouded in superfluous tree growth.
We also have some wonderful Scots Pines making up the bulk of Horseshoe Plantation in the middle of the course. Unfortunately over the years thousands of extraneous silver birch trees have been allowed to take root and now obscure the fine specimen trees. I have plans to go on a chainsaw training course in January and get my licence! ;D
Duncan
Who is/was behind the current tree removal?
Ciao
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Duncan
Who is/was behind the current tree removal?
Ciao
Greens chairman Mike Higgins is an ex tour pro and has been at Cavendish for well over 40 years. He has a vision to restore the course to how he remembers it as a junior in the 70s before any trees were planted. Architect Jonathan Gaunt is also a member and is a supporter of tree removal for aesthetic and agronomic reasons.
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Some old photos of Cavendish from the late 1920s...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259695701_f3a37b0cbd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxybZ)Hole #4 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxybZ) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259695501_8be287f4aa_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxy8x)Hole #5 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxy8x) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259764402_0377d169e4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxUBu)Hole #6 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxUBu) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259764187_578a10239b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxUxM)Hole #6 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxUxM) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259763972_2868e02ec9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxUu5)Hole #7 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxUu5) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259694811_c657d115e3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxVD)Hole #7 (3) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxVD) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259763647_ba74638c08_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxUot)Hole #7 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxUot) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259694581_bf6f42cd0f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxRF)Hole #8 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxRF) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259694421_f734bb95bc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxNV)Hole #9 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxNV) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259694256_159f746c75_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxL5)Hole #10 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxL5) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259762987_23576b8355_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxUc6)Hole #11 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxUc6) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259762717_2ff6f0b4e1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxU7r)Hole #14 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxU7r) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259762542_441d5e031c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxU4q)Hole #15 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxU4q) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259693691_148b9cac44_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxAk)Hole #17 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxAk) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259693526_f13d3cfebd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxxu)Hole #18 (2) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxxu) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259693206_7e63aa8e07_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxrY)Hole #18 (4) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxrY) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259762107_84edbea2a7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxTVV)Hole #18 (3) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxTVV) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48259693056_88c45df085_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxpo)Hole #18 (https://flic.kr/p/2gwxxpo) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
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Except for the addition of a few trees the course does not seem to appear much different now. The course seems to have been fairly well preserved. Granted I only played it once about ten years ago.
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Duncan
Thanks. I am shocked by how much bigger some of the greens appear to be! Plus, the greenside bunkering is very different today, but we knew that.
One hole looks very different, the 10th. Was that green pushed back?
Ciao
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Great photos, thanks Duncan!
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One hole looks very different, the 10th. Was that green pushed back?
I'm not sure. My friend Nick Norton thinks so. Club historian Richard Atherton thinks not.
The angle of the old photo may be deceiving - it is taken from well to the left of the line of play and the far bank of the stream appears to be a gentle grassy slope, rather that the cliff edge we see today.
I will try to remember to get a pic from the same angle over the weekend so that a comparison can be made.
You are certainly right about the bunkering - it has been dumbed down considerably over the years and many greens have shrunk. Our new Course Manager - in conjunction with our archie members Jonathan Gaunt and the aforementioned Nick Norton - has plans to restore these as funds allow.
Our Centenary year approaches in 2025 and gives us a realistic target to get improvements made by.
Overall however, Tommy W is quite correct. The overall look, feel, and atmosphere of the course have altered very little in nearly 100 years. This is one of the advantages of a club never having the money to change anything!
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Great old photos Duncan.
See PM.
atb
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Thanks for these Duncan!
Most of the greens and surrounds look quite different which is to be expected with green sizes changing, bunker profiles changing and backgrounds changing (mainly with trees!!!) I spend a lot of time looking at old photos for work and also recently at my home course, and from my experience I'm not seeing anything that has changed on 10 but I could be wrong?
Has anyone any old aerial photos of the course? If you contact Historic England they might have something in their archive that isnt yet available online? Could be interesting if they do?
Cheers,
James
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I so enjoy this type of photo tour. Even through the mists of time and change and circumstances, you can still see & feel the essence of Dr Mac's inherent design approach and ethos -- so different (or so it seems to me, a casual observer) in its essentials from Tilly or Ross or Colt etc.
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I am super indebted to Thomas Dai, who this morning emailed me a set of superbly colourised versions of the 1920s photos I posted to this thread.
I was inspired this evening to drive up to Cavendish with my son and to recreate as far as possible the same shots. I've still got a bit of work to do on most of them but here are a few tasters...
Here is the 4th hole;
1929
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48267606042_5588d9f5a4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gxf6Eb)04 (https://flic.kr/p/2gxf6Eb) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
2019
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48267539036_11f19eb026_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gxeKJU)04 (https://flic.kr/p/2gxeKJU) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
The 10th;
1929
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48267604657_d01962b945_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gxf6fi)10 (https://flic.kr/p/2gxf6fi) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
2019
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48267538606_e13075a06c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gxeKBu)10 (https://flic.kr/p/2gxeKBu) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
And the 18th;
1929
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48267528466_eaeb223da1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gxeGAE)18a (https://flic.kr/p/2gxeGAE) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
2019
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48267613662_71fb21fe3e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gxf8Vy)18a (https://flic.kr/p/2gxf8Vy) by duncan cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143424318@N05/), on Flickr
Fantastic work Dai! Those B&W photos from over 90 years ago now look as though they were taken last week! I have no idea how you do this and my 18 year old son (who knows EVERYTHING) is seriously impressed!
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Terrific then-n-now comparisons Duncan. Well done and thanks for the kind words. A bit of colour does seem to bring out nuances that are otherwise missable. I look forward to seeing the others.
As to how I do it, tell your son that it’s covered by the Official Secrets Act, sub-section 007, paragraph 666 entitled “Dad’s only”! :)
See also Duncan's excellent detailed comparison thread - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67384.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67384.0.html)
Atb
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Our Centenary year approaches in 2025 and gives us a realistic target to get improvements made by.
Buda 2025?
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Buda 2025?
Cavendish would make for an excellent BUDA and Buxton is a lovely town in which to spend a few days. I would be delighted to organise this in our Centenary year if there was sufficient support.
The other course in the town - Buxton and High Peak GC - is a delightfully old-fashioned quirky routing across Fairfield Common designed by Jack Morris of Hoylake renown in 1887. It has a number of exceptional holes (a couple of them completely mad) and very few mediocre ones. It would make an excellent stable-mate for Cavendish in a BUDA.
https://www.bhpgc.co.uk/ (https://www.bhpgc.co.uk/)
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The older pic of 10th looks like its further left than where the green is. The line of the stream and the slope is different unless they flattened the green, moved it slightly further right and/or slightly moved the line of the stream over the years.
I felt this green wasn't really a Mackenzie as it seems to be too flat and very un-Mackenzie green.
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Ben
It is very difficult to tell, but I do think Duncan is right. The left bunker looks like it is in the same position. The houses in the background seem different as there are now no chimneys to line up the green. What has really changed is the grade from the water up to something close to green level. Now its a sharp rise. It looks like the creek was re-directed to curb the erosion of that bank. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the green retained its position, but lengthened to the rear and shortened up front. There is an odd amount of land between the water and the green.
Ciao
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I am sure that the green is basically in the same position, but may have migrated slightly due to changes in mowing practice.
There is a large area short of the current green that could easily be mown to green length. This was probably the case in years gone by.
Rumours abound that the 10th green is one of those that was flattened by George Henriques in the 40s or 50s.
He was a leading amateur in his day, major force at Cavendish, and by all accounts unstoppable bully.
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Course improvements continue apace at Cavendish, even during the current lockdown. The greenstaff are apparently taking advantage of the lack of prying members' eyes to remove a lot of trees!
The 10th is a much acclaimed hole - requiring a 240 yard carry to gain the upper level of the fairway and to bring the green within range over a ravine faced with a cliff. The full strategy of the hole has always been obscured from the tee by tree growth all along the left hand side of the fairway.
No longer! :D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49734232408_9892c7e6d6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iLQWzE)10c (https://flic.kr/p/2iLQWzE) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
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That's a huge improvement from my last visit, Duncan
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That's a huge improvement from my last visit, Duncan
Isn't it? The tiger line is now completely opened up and will tempt the flat bellies. I expect a lot of provisional balls to be played!
It won't affect my tried and tested strategy of 6-iron, 8-iron, wedge, putt though! ;)
Similar improvements are happening all over the course.
You'll have to get over when all this shit has finished!
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You'll have to get over when all this shit has finished!
Count on it. Though it's down, not over, from up here!
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You'll have to get over when all this shit has finished!
Count on it. Though it's down, not over, from up here!
Are you not still based in Leeds?
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Course improvements continue apace at Cavendish, even during the current lockdown. The greenstaff are apparently taking advantage of the lack of prying members' eyes to remove a lot of trees!
r
Best keep quiet and let them get on with it if they're trying to take advantage of the current period to do things away from members prying eyes!
:)
atb
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I’d like a Cavendish visit once the Plague has passed too. Perhaps a GCA event?
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I’d like a Cavendish visit once the Plague has passed too. Perhaps a GCA event?
Why not? Relatively close, I'd imagine, to the centre of gravity of UK GCAers and somewhere I really need to get back to. Without fearing for my life with Ben Stephens in the group behind!
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I’d like a Cavendish visit once the Plague has passed too. Perhaps a GCA event?
Why not? Relatively close, I'd imagine, to the centre of gravity of UK GCAers and somewhere I really need to get back to. Without fearing for my life with Ben Stephens in the group behind!
My introduction to Ben was while putting out on the 7th green at Cavendish with Lorne Smith and two others whose identities I can't remember. Was one you, Mark?
A ball thudded onto the green right in the middle of us. What the ....?!!!
We glared back to see a grinning Ben on the tee 300 yards away waving at us.
Having subsequently played with Ben on several occasions I now know that his target area is actually a relatively safe place to be.
Still... :o
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I’d like a Cavendish visit once the Plague has passed too. Perhaps a GCA event?
Happy to organise a post plague Cavendish meet. Maybe combined with Reddish Vale to make a 36 hole MacKenzie day?
The survival of both clubs permitting, of course! :o
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Yes, Duncan, I was in that group. I was also in a group at Liphook, on the short dogleg left par 4 when Ben drove through the green and, even more remarkably, on the 3rd green at Silloth when he nearly did the same thing. Perhaps it's me, not him?
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Perhaps it's me, not him?
If I could drive the ball 300 yards the last person I'd want to hit in the group ahead would be a lawyer! ;)
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If I could drive the ball 300 yards the last person I'd want to hit in the group ahead would be a lawyer! ;)
:) :) :) :) and +1
And a GCA get-together at Cavendish one day sounds great.
Atb
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I’d like a Cavendish visit once the Plague has passed too. Perhaps a GCA event?
Why not? Relatively close, I'd imagine, to the centre of gravity of UK GCAers and somewhere I really need to get back to. Without fearing for my life with Ben Stephens in the group behind!
My introduction to Ben was while putting out on the 7th green at Cavendish with Lorne Smith and two others whose identities I can't remember. Was one you, Mark?
A ball thudded onto the green right in the middle of us. What the ....?!!!
We glared back to see a grinning Ben on the tee 300 yards away waving at us.
Having subsequently played with Ben on several occasions I now know that his target area is actually a relatively safe place to be.
Still... :o
I think it was Spangles and Boony playing with you and Lorne on the 7th green ;D
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Yes, Duncan, I was in that group. I was also in a group at Liphook, on the short dogleg left par 4 when Ben drove through the green and, even more remarkably, on the 3rd green at Silloth when he nearly did the same thing. Perhaps it's me, not him?
Mark,
Well you played foursomes with myself at Perranporth and you were surprised to be left with a 9 iron to the par 5 2nd green ;D
I do remember Silloth :o
Need to return to Cavendish - last time I played there I holed out for a 2 with a wedge on the 10th and agree with Whitty that it would be a great venue for BUDA in the future.
Cheers
Ben
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Well you played foursomes with myself at Perranporth and you were surprised to be left with a 9 iron to the par 5 2nd green ;D
Since I left you through the back, 9 iron was too much club. Since I put you 20 yards through the back, I should probably have hit gap wedge. For our second. On an uphill par 5. Not a game I'm familiar with....
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Need to return to Cavendish - last time I played there I holed out for a 2 with a wedge on the 10th and agree with Whitty that it would be a great venue for BUDA in the future.
Hopefully I shall be attending my first BUDA this year and have the centenary year of 2025 in mind for a Cavendish BUDA.
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Well you played foursomes with myself at Perranporth and you were surprised to be left with a 9 iron to the par 5 2nd green ;D
Since I left you through the back, 9 iron was too much club. Since I put you 20 yards through the back, I should probably have hit gap wedge. For our second. On an uphill par 5. Not a game I'm familiar with....
Well we still won the hole (I think)! I played local scratch league matches singles against Ollie Freckingham (both at home and away) who also bowled for Leicestershire County Cricket boy that lad was hitting the ball miles 30 yards or so past me. The one that sticks out my mind is Joe Dean who was hitting 3 wood 30-40 yards past - thats definitely a game that I am not familiar to......
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Cavendish is looking for some help....
https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/save-cavendish-golf-club#start (https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/save-cavendish-golf-club#start)
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Cavendish is looking for some help....
https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/save-cavendish-golf-club#start (https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/save-cavendish-golf-club#start)
News travels fast James!
Like all golf clubs Cavendish has been hit hard by the closure forced upon us. Despite being custodians of a historic and highly regarded course we are one of two small golf clubs in a small town of 20,000 inhabitants. We have less than 200 full members. We do however, have a catchment of over 5 million people living within an hour's drive of the club and so over recent years have become increasingly reliant on visitor and society income to balance the books.
The sudden collapse of this income has been devastating. Members have rallied round with loans and advance payments on future subscriptions etc, thus averting the immediate crisis, but that doesn't replace the revenue that is lost forever. Meanwhile our greenstaff are still all employed on full pay. The course is looking fantastic but the drain on the club's meagre cash reserves is clearly unsustainable for long.
A new management board has been installed at the club, and this includes several local people with specific experience in the art of fundraising - hence the crowdfunding appeal. This initiative is more a function of the culture change at the top of the club than an indication of any particular desperation on the part of Cavendish. Pretty well all golf clubs are desperate right now - we just appear to have got our appeal in first!
Early indications are extremely positive - we are attracting a lot of media attention and pledges are beginning to flood in from all manner of unlikely sources. The membership has been galvanised by this initiative and are busy spreading the word via their social media contacts.
I would urge all friends of Cavendish to chip in - there are some excellent green fee deals on offer for those making a donation.
https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/save-cavendish-golf-club/comments#start (https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/save-cavendish-golf-club/comments#start)
My personal involvement in all this is developing marketing strategies to expand our membership base going forward. To this end we are currently finalizing details of a new International Membership which will involve unlimited golf at Cavendish for occasional visitors from overseas. We are ideally located only 45 minutes from Manchester International Airport in a the lovely Georgian spa town of Buxton in the Peak District National Park - the perfect first round and overnight stay of any UK golf trip!
In addition to this I am working on an innovative new Country Membership for members of other UK golf clubs who would also like to be able to play at Cavendish a few times per year - including in Saturday competitions. Buxton is a great place to visit for a weekend every now and again!
I shall be announcing these membership drives in the next few days.
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***UPDATE***
Two days into our crowdfunding campaign we've raised £6500!
That's a quarter of the way to our target of £25k with another 25 days to go. There's maybe something in these new-fangled ideas!
https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/save-cavendish-golf-club#start (https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/save-cavendish-golf-club#start)
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***UPDATE***
Two days into our crowdfunding campaign we've raised £6500!
That's a quarter of the way to our target of £25k with another 25 days to go. There's maybe something in these new-fangled ideas!
https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/save-cavendish-golf-club#start (https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/save-cavendish-golf-club#start)
So, how is the site of the 2021 Buda Cup doing?
Ciao
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They’ve found enough money to do significant course upgrades under Jonathan Gaunt...
...Any update on the extent of the works, Duncan?
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They’ve found enough money to do significant course upgrades under Jonathan Gaunt...
...Any update on the extent of the works, Duncan?
Including Ecobunkering the bunkers - see https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68330.msg1659071.html#new
atb
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They’ve found enough money to do significant course upgrades under Jonathan Gaunt...
...Any update on the extent of the works, Duncan?
Yes, we've managed to allocate some funds to upgrading the bunkers on holes 1-5 and 18. We hope to complete the rest of the course over the next two years.
Hole 1
Before
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703850327_cdd93df6ae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwucZ)1 (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwucZ) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
Under construction
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703850302_9cb4e1fb8e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwucy)f1011620-1826-4777-adb4-7d728f5de5ff (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwucy) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
Hole 3
Before
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703851132_33e2c4afbc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwurS)3b (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwurS) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
Under construction
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703026903_4a2b05fc89_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfsgr2)IMG_4953 (https://flic.kr/p/2kfsgr2) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
I'm particularly pleased to see the original bunker long and right on the third being reinstated after many years.
The new bunkers are being lined with Ecobunker material but we are not going with the stacked edge. It was decided that a stacked plastic edge was a step too far on a project intended to restore MacKenzie bunkers as closely as possible to the original.
The new bunkers on 18 are looking spectacular but I didn't take any photos last time I was there!
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My own contribution meanwhile, is currently in the warm and dry environs of the locker room! 8)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703848386_29d11a3fc7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwtCw)130274022_10218680403581402_2745864273748662405_n (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwtCw) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703111188_1000cc1e33_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfsGud)130248359_10218680410301570_3570453473053411457_n (https://flic.kr/p/2kfsGud) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703136908_b60b212ba1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfsQ8E)IMG_5008 (https://flic.kr/p/2kfsQ8E) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
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They’ve found enough money to do significant course upgrades under Jonathan Gaunt...
...Any update on the extent of the works, Duncan?
Yes, we've managed to allocate some funds to upgrading the bunkers on holes 1-5 and 18. We hope to complete the rest of the course over the next two years.
Hole 1
Before
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703850327_cdd93df6ae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwucZ)1 (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwucZ) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
Under construction
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703850302_9cb4e1fb8e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwucy)f1011620-1826-4777-adb4-7d728f5de5ff (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwucy) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
Hole 3
Before
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703851132_33e2c4afbc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwurS)3b (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwurS) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
Under construction
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703026903_4a2b05fc89_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfsgr2)IMG_4953 (https://flic.kr/p/2kfsgr2) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
I'm particularly pleased to see the original bunker long and right on the third being reinstated after many years.
The new bunkers are being lined with Ecobunker material but we are not going with the stacked edge. It was decided that a stacked plastic edge was a step too far on a project intended to restore MacKenzie bunkers as closely as possible to the original.
The new bunkers on 18 are looking spectacular but I didn't take any photos last time I was there!
Not convinced with the new bunker shaping I just feel it is a bit OTT for Cavendish. Isn't it a windy part of the country that sand will get blown out of the bunkers and extra sand will be required by the club every year because it is exposed.
Didn't Mackenzie original bunkers have a more frilly outline - these ones look rather smooth edged.
The lockers look great however that ceiling ::)
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Ben,
The windy site will always be an issue but one thing we all wanted to see was slightly higher sand faces on the bunkers. Over the years - like at many courses - the bunkers have been allowed to become flat saucers of sand with grass faces. The hope and intention is to add a little dramatic effect to what have become dull and barely functional hazards.
We have early photographs of most of the green sites at Cavendish, and as far as possible MacKenzie's original bunker styling will be followed. Unfortunately, we have no old photos for the first three holes, so a little artistic license has been necessary. I have questioned the need for the extravagant tongues on some bunkers, which to me give too much of a "modern" look, but I am assured by our architect that these are entirely in keeping with the MacKenzie style. I don't suppose that removing a tongue later is too difficult!
I've not been there for a couple of weeks, during which time more work has been done. I'm playing today so will post some pics of 4, 5, and 18 later.
As for the ceiling, I may well board and skim it yet if I have any of my meagre budget left after refurbishing the showers. If not, it will have to wait. What's wrong with a bit of retro Artex anyway? ;)
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Ben,
The windy site will always be an issue but one thing we all wanted to see was slightly higher sand faces on the bunkers. Over the years - like at many courses - the bunkers have been allowed to become flat saucers of sand with grass faces. The hope and intention is to add a little dramatic effect to what have become dull and barely functional hazards.
We have early photographs of most of the green sites at Cavendish, and as far as possible MacKenzie's original bunker styling will be followed. Unfortunately, we have no old photos for the first three holes, so a little artistic license has been necessary. I have questioned the need for the extravagant tongues on some bunkers, which to me give too much of a "modern" look, but I am assured by our architect that these are entirely in keeping with the MacKenzie style. I don't suppose that removing a tongue later is too difficult!
I've not been there for a couple of weeks, during which time more work has been done. I'm playing today so will post some pics of 4, 5, and 18 later.
As for the ceiling, I may well board and skim it yet if I have any of my meagre budget left after refurbishing the showers. If not, it will have to wait. What's wrong with a bit of retro Artex anyway? ;)
Hi Duncan
I would dispute what the Golf Course Architect has said. Mackenzie didn't really do smooth edges in his camouflage approach to bunker styles it was more unkempt raggedy outlines. I wonder which Mackenzie bunkers the architect got the reference from. I am afraid those new bunkers on the first is too American in look the majority might prefer this however to me its not true Mackenzie look.
I liked the look of the old bunkers as they fitted with the landscape and the surrounds well as it was not 'in your face' :) for me Cavendish is losing its unique look and its becoming too much like the other golf courses in the Leeds 'Sandbelt'
Regarding ceiling I would board over it and skim it. Don't forget the moisture levels in the changing rooms that you will require a moisture board plasterboard :)
Cheers
Ben
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Ben
There is no doubt Cavendish used to have flashed bunkers whose shapes were fairly basic. I disagree with Duncan that they fit into the landscape better simply because the bunkers stand out far more when flashed compared to rolled over grass faces. I prefer the grass look for essentially parkland courses because they do fit the scene in a lighter manner. I expect the function of this style better fits a low budget maintenance scheme as well. The big issue with the flashed bunkers is they look horribly out of place when on hills. I guess the easy solution is to not build on the hills!
Anyway, to me, the bunkers are fine. I would much rather the club focus on tree removal, continued drainage efforts and grass lines for now. For me, bunkers are a low priority.
Ciao
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Ben
There is no doubt Cavendish used to flashed bunkers whose shapes were fairly basic. I disagree with Duncan that they fit into the landscape better simply because the bunkers stand out far more when flashed compared to rolled over grass faces. I prefer the grass look for essentially parkland courses because they do fit the scene in a lighter manner. I expect the function of this style better fits a low budget maintenance scheme as well. The big issue with the flashed bunkers is they look horribly out of place when on hills. I guess the easy solution is to not build on the hills!
Anyway, to me, the bunkers are fine. I would much rather the club focus on tree removal, continued drianage efforts and grass lines for now. For me, bunkers are a low priority.
Ciao
Sean,
Which areas are you referring to for tree removal - I have heard that the drainage is improving especially the 5th fairway. All what you are referring to is more cost effective than redoing all of the bunkers ;D
Cheers
Ben
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Duncan,
A good reference of how the Mackenzie bunkers looked like - 'Alister MacKenzie's Cypress Point Club' by Geoff Shackleford is a good read and so many photos of what the course looked like.
Cheers
Ben
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Just got in from a rather wet round at Cavendish! Here are some more pics of the work in progress...
4th Before
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50712151123_99e2c25b7e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kgg2Ka)4b (https://flic.kr/p/2kgg2Ka) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
4th Now
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50710151816_91b0dba619_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kg5Mqm)IMG_5021 (https://flic.kr/p/2kg5Mqm) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
5th Before
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50712871931_c88afcff01_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kgjJ1T)5 (https://flic.kr/p/2kgjJ1T) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
5th Now
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50710151666_bbff37d330_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kg5MnL)IMG_5023 (https://flic.kr/p/2kg5MnL) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
18th Before
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50712947602_e28307acce_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kgk7vy)18c (https://flic.kr/p/2kgk7vy) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
18th Now
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50710151566_441cb15c35_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kg5Mm3)IMG_5025 (https://flic.kr/p/2kg5Mm3) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
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Anyway, to me, the bunkers are fine. I would much rather the club focus on tree removal, continued drainage efforts and grass lines for now. For me, bunkers are a low priority.
A survey of club members in the summer revealed that overwhelmingly the biggest concern regarding the course was the state of the bunkers. In virtually all of them the drainage had failed - the sand was compacted hardpan in summer and flooded in winter. You'd struggle to find a single member or visitor who thought the bunkers were "fine". They are beyond doubt most peoples' main priority.
The styling of the bunkers is a balance between aesthetic impact, adherence to our MacKenzie heritage, and maintainability with a full-time greens staff of only three. Our course manager has been closely involved with the architect and shaper to ensure that form doesn't override function. I had worries that we might end up with modern resort course bunkering on a classic MacKenzie, but these concerns have largely been allayed. Ultimately, we have to appeal to the general golfer more than the GCA wing nut. Impressive dramatic bunkering looks good in photos and helps sell green fees. MacKenzie himself was no slouch in this department!
A third of the bunkers on the course will have been completed this winter. It is planned to work on the rest over the next two winters as funds allow.
Tree removal continues apace, opening up forgotten vistas and allowing light and air into greens and tees. Extensive drainage work is currently being undertaken by specialist contractors on the problematic 5th fairway. Across the whole course deep linear aeration with an "Earthquake" machine last year made an incredible difference as a century of thatch and compaction was relieved at a stroke. Cavendish is now a remarkably dry winter course!
An enthusiastic band of member volunteers continues to upgrade pathways in areas of heavy traffic. The clubhouse is also being renovated at minimal cost thanks to the many tradespeople we have as members. The sense of optimism for the future at the club is palpable - staring into the abyss earlier this year has had a transformative effect.
I hope to post full details of the forthcoming Cavendish Buda later today.
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Anyway, to me, the bunkers are fine. I would much rather the club focus on tree removal, continued drainage efforts and grass lines for now. For me, bunkers are a low priority.
A survey of club members in the summer revealed that overwhelmingly the biggest concern regarding the course was the state of the bunkers. In virtually all of them the drainage had failed - the sand was compacted hardpan in summer and flooded in winter. You'd struggle to find a single member or visitor who thought the bunkers were "fine". They are beyond doubt most peoples' main priority.
The styling of the bunkers is a balance between aesthetic impact, adherence to our MacKenzie heritage, and maintainability with a full-time greens staff of only three. Our course manager has been closely involved with the architect and shaper to ensure that form doesn't override function. I had worries that we might end up with modern resort course bunkering on a classic MacKenzie, but these concerns have largely been allayed. Ultimately, we have to appeal to the general golfer more than the GCA wing nut. Impressive dramatic bunkering looks good in photos and helps sell green fees. MacKenzie himself was no slouch in this department!
A third of the bunkers on the course will have been completed this winter. It is planned to work on the rest over the next two winters as funds allow.
Tree removal continues apace, opening up forgotten vistas and allowing light and air into greens and tees. Extensive drainage work is currently being undertaken by specialist contractors on the problematic 5th fairway. Across the whole course deep linear aeration with an "Earthquake" machine last year made an incredible difference as a century of thatch and compaction was relieved at a stroke. Cavendish is now a remarkably dry winter course!
An enthusiastic band of member volunteers continues to upgrade pathways in areas of heavy traffic. The clubhouse is also being renovated at minimal cost thanks to the many tradespeople we have as members. The sense of optimism for the future at the club is palpable - staring into the abyss earlier this year has had a transformative effect.
I hope to post full details of the forthcoming Cavendish Buda later today.
Well, the members pay the bills. Though I haven't experienced these failed bunkers you speak of. In any case, I would consider continued drainage work to include bunkers, just low priority drainage work.
Ciao
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Duncan,
Thank you for the various updates and detailed explanations.
Looking forward to a 2021 visit.
atb
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My biggest concern is with the new bunkering on the 18th. This is a photo from 1928, only a couple of years after the course opened.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50717826961_c8371c864b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kgL7Yr)18d (https://flic.kr/p/2kgL7Yr) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
And here is the new bunkering by Jonathon Gaunt.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50710151566_441cb15c35_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kg5Mm3)IMG_5025 (https://flic.kr/p/2kg5Mm3) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
I have no problem with the right hand bunker - it is in exactly the same place as MacKenzie's bunker and is probably a better shape.
The left hand bunker however, troubles me. This is a par 4 hole of 440 yards over a very undulating fairway. The only realistic chance most club golfers have of reaching the green in two shots is with a fairway wood from 200 yards which catches the down slope of the fairway and then kicks on and up the ramp onto the putting surface. The elation felt and the satisfaction gained when this shot is pulled off is immense.
Due to the left to right slope of the terrain the aiming point for this shot is generally the flagpole by the side of the clubhouse. Now however, there is a bloody great bunker directly on the line the perfectly struck ball would take. The low handicapper flying a mid or short iron directly onto the green is unaffected, but the shorter hitter has his main option removed.
I've discussed this with Jonathon but he clearly hadn't even considered the issue when siting the bunker. He just wanted it closer to the green to catch errant aerial approaches.
I'm sure the running shot in was in MacKenzie's mind when he positioned the original bunkers 10 yards further left and seemingly "detached" from the green.
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My biggest concern is with the new bunkering on the 18th. This is a photo from 1928, only a couple of years after the course opened.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50717826961_c8371c864b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kgL7Yr)18d (https://flic.kr/p/2kgL7Yr) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
And here is the new bunkering by Jonathon Gaunt.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50710151566_441cb15c35_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kg5Mm3)IMG_5025 (https://flic.kr/p/2kg5Mm3) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
I have no problem with the right hand bunker - it is in exactly the same place as MacKenzie's bunker and is probably a better shape.
The left hand bunker however, troubles me. This is a par 4 hole of 440 yards over a very undulating fairway. The only realistic chance most club golfers have of reaching the green in two shots is with a fairway wood from 200 yards which catches the down slope of the fairway and then kicks on and up the ramp onto the putting surface. The elation felt and the satisfaction gained when this shot is pulled off is immense.
Due to the left to right slope of the terrain the aiming point for this shot is generally the flagpole by the side of the clubhouse. Now however, there is a bloody great bunker directly on the line the perfectly struck ball would take. The low handicapper flying a mid or short iron directly onto the green is unaffected, but the shorter hitter has his main option removed.
I've discussed this with Jonathon but he clearly hadn't even considered the issue when siting the bunker. He just wanted it closer to the green to catch errant aerial approaches.
I'm sure the running shot in was in MacKenzie's mind when he positioned the original bunkers 10 yards further left and seemingly "detached" from the green.
Duncan
I agree with you the new left bunker is far too close to the green and reduces the number of possible shots into the green. Would have replicated the look that Mackenzie did in 1928 with the two bunkers about 10-20 yards away from the edge of the green.
In Mackenzie's days the ball did not stop like we have currently however you are right it makes it harder for the shorter hitters who generate less spin.
I can't help feeling the new bunkers look like cookie cutters - very similar sizes and shapes whereas the original were of differing sizes and shapes. Some people have differing ways of translating what they used to look like and how they should look like plus forget that all golfers need to be accommodated not the top 5%.
Cheers
Ben
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Many modern architects set up their courses around the scratch player. I have always questioned this philosophy.
Dr Mac famously considered all abilities when he designed a course.
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Many modern architects set up their courses around the scratch player. I have always questioned this philosophy.
Dr Mac famously considered all abilities when he designed a course.
Agree on this! Variety is the spice of life
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Not to mention the fact that golf courses are paid for by players of average ability.
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Not to mention the fact that golf courses are paid for by players if average ability.
They are the true clients in this regard.
One other thing have you talked to the green keeper - is the clean cut Fazio like bunker outlines a maintenance reason?
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Many modern architects set up their courses around the scratch player. I have always questioned this philosophy.
Dr Mac famously considered all abilities when he designed a course.
Dr Mac will have considered average handicap golfers, but the courses would have been extremely difficult relative to today's standard.
Ciao
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No comment on the bunkering etc but the old stone wall in front of the Clubhouse looks to my eye at least much nicer than the current hedge.
atb
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No comment on the bunkering etc but the old stone wall in front of the Clubhouse looks to my eye at least much nicer than the current hedge.
atb
There is a hedge in front of the stone wall?
Ciao
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No comment on the bunkering etc but the old stone wall in front of the Clubhouse looks to my eye at least much nicer than the current hedge.
atb
There is a hedge in front of the stone wall?
Ciao
Nah.
There are a couple of bushes and some flower beds but that’s it!
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No comment on the bunkering etc but the old stone wall in front of the Clubhouse looks to my eye at least much nicer than the current hedge.
atb
There is a hedge in front of the stone wall?
Ciao
Nah.
There are a couple of bushes and some flower beds but that’s it!
Further microscope viewing of the old and new photos posted above do seem to still indicate wall but of different colour. Maybe the coloured version of the old photo is out of kilter? Can’t think for the life of me who did it?!:):):)
Atb
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Further microscope viewing of the old and new photos posted above do seem to still indicate wall but of different colour. Maybe the coloured version of the old photo is out of kilter? Can’t think for the life of me who did it?!:) :) :)
Atb
The colorized version looks much better than the real thing. Most wouldn't notice the contrast of the dark wall against the lighter clubhouse, but matching shades would be much more attractive.
Ben,
I don't believe every MacKenzie bunker looked like the ones at Cypress Point. A lot easier to do those shapes in sand dunes than in heavier soil. I think that MacKenzie wanted to draw the eye away from the target, and did it to great effect with irregular lines and flashed up capes. But I think historical photos from Cavendish would give a much better idea of what that course's bunkering looked like than referring to CPC as an ideal. Surely the implementation should vary by site.
Overall, I worry that course restorations or updates or improvements or whatever you call them are far too bunker-oriented. Sure, pretty bunkers photograph well, and I can see some value in that. But they get too much attention IMO.
The left bunker position on the 18th is somewhere between evil and clueless.
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Further microscope viewing of the old and new photos posted above do seem to still indicate wall but of different colour. Maybe the coloured version of the old photo is out of kilter? Can’t think for the life of me who did it?!:) :) :)
Atb
The colorized version looks much better than the real thing. Most wouldn't notice the contrast of the dark wall against the lighter clubhouse, but matching shades would be much more attractive.
Ben,
I don't believe every MacKenzie bunker looked like the ones at Cypress Point. A lot easier to do those shapes in sand dunes than in heavier soil. I think that MacKenzie wanted to draw the eye away from the target, and did it to great effect with irregular lines and flashed up capes. But I think historical photos from Cavendish would give a much better idea of what that course's bunkering looked like than referring to CPC as an ideal. Surely the implementation should vary by site.
Overall, I worry that course restorations or updates or improvements or whatever you call them are far too bunker-oriented. Sure, pretty bunkers photograph well, and I can see some value in that. But they get too much attention IMO.
The left bunker position on the 18th is somewhere between evil and clueless.
John
Cypress Point is an example of Mackenzie bunkering and it comes up as different shapes and size with a similar style. If you look at the 18th photo from Duncan - the old bunkering has different shapes unlike the new ones which look too similar to each other.
If you are referring to clay base - didn't Augusta have similar shaping and style to some of the bunker at Cypress Point. The great thing is that Mackenzie designed less bunkers if the soil didn't suit the sand and likewise the other way if it was sandy he maximised that potential not only at Cypress Point but also Royal Melbourne.
At Royal Melbourne didn't Mackenzie recommend that half of the bunker was to have smooth edges and the rest to have a rough edge?
To me Cavendish bunkers is more Fazio-esque than Mackenzie. There will be a number of members and golfers that prefer this look and i have asked Duncan whether the sharp edges are more of a maintenance requirement.
Cheers
Ben
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Ben,
I’m no expert on bunker construction but surely it is a little premature to be commenting on the sharpness or roughness of the bunker edges when we are only at the stage of the liners being installed?
The original bunkers had no liners and were dug by hand with shovels. Inevitably the look during construction is not going to be the same. Hopefully the finished look will be slightly less uniform.
It was decided that liners were essential because of the drainage characteristics of the soil, the presence of stones, and the prevalence of rabbits and other burrowing animals.
The ongoing maintenance of the bunkers is one of the main criteria in their design, and our course manager has been closely involved in the process. While we in this forum witter on endlessly about authentic bunker edges and the like, the main desire for the overwhelming majority of golfers is for impressive attractive bunkers which most importantly perform well and give good consistent sand to play out of.
Personally I am not too bothered about the minutiae of the edges etc; I am more concerned that their overall shaping and appearance is consistent with the pedigree of the course and that they are sited in the right place from a strategic and historical point of view. I am quite happy to embrace modern construction techniques if it improves performance in the long run and saves time and money on maintenance.
MacKenzie’s original bunkers looked great but didn’t perform well on a wet windy site. Many were grassed over within a few years of construction.
Our longest serving member joined the club in 1948 and still has distinct memories of the course at that time. Most of the changes to the original bunkering had already been made.
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Ben,
I’m no expert on bunker construction but surely it is a little premature to be commenting on the sharpness or roughness of the bunker edges when we are only at the stage of the liners being installed?
The original bunkers had no liners and were dug by hand with shovels. Inevitably the look during construction is not going to be the same. Hopefully the finished look will be slightly less uniform.
It was decided that liners were essential because of the drainage characteristics of the soil, the presence of stones, and the prevalence of rabbits and other burrowing animals.
The ongoing maintenance of the bunkers is one of the main criteria in their design, and our course manager has been closely involved in the process. While we in this forum witter on endlessly about authentic bunker edges and the like, the main desire for the overwhelming majority of golfers is for impressive attractive bunkers which most importantly perform well and give good consistent sand to play out of.
Personally I am not too bothered about the minutiae of the edges etc; I am more concerned that their overall shaping and appearance is consistent with the pedigree of the course and that they are sited in the right place from a strategic and historical point of view. I am quite happy to embrace modern construction techniques if it improves performance in the long run and saves time and money on maintenance.
MacKenzie’s original bunkers looked great but didn’t perform well on a wet windy site. Many were grassed over within a few years of construction.
Our longest serving member joined the club in 1948 and still has distinct memories of the course at that time. Most of the changes to the original bunkering had already been made.
Duncan,
So the bunkers were shaped and lined with astroturf liners with no drainage below? I know Cavendish can be very wet at different times of the year and not having drainage below the bunkers can still flood.
Over time the astroturf liner (it looks astroturf to me) will move or curl up if there is nothing binding them together and attached into the ground. Having played hockey for many years on sand based astroturf it does not hold the sand in very well, if the match is windy sand blows everywhere in the face! No wonder why they now have water based astroturf ;D
To me it looks like the club are doubling the annual sand budget as it looks at least more than 50% increase in sand coverage volume wise.
If it is windy lots of sand will be blown off similar to what happened to the original Mackenzie bunkers additional sand will be needed each year. Sand prices are getting more expensive these days
The old bunker shapes were better to contain the sand in the bunkers and I understand the club wants to take the more aesthetic approach to make it look prettier.
Greenkeepers tend to straighten the outline of the bunkers over time as it is easier for them to maintain.
I am personally not a fan of using plastic on golf courses and avoid it where i can.
Cheers
Ben
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Of course drainage was installed before the liners went in. Why would you think otherwise? The liner is perforated to allow water to pass through and drain away.
The liners and edges are being installed by Eco Bunker under warranty.
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Of course drainage was installed before the liners went in. Why would you think otherwise? The liner is perforated to allow water to pass through and drain away.
The liners and edges are being installed by Eco Bunker under warranty.
Duncan
Thanks for clarifying re drainage as it is difficult to see from the photos.
Eco bunker reuses astroturf from old hockey pitches and at this rate they could run out as a lot of clubs are using them at present. Thats interesting that they offer warranty but for me the product is not great for the environment and I personally prefer natural materials.
Cheers
Ben
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Ah, but it’s got the prefix “eco” in the name...
...it must be good! 😉
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Ben
This recycled artificial grass would otherwise be tipped in a landfill, so I think it is a terrific use of a waste product. I've not thought to use it as a drainage carpet on the floor of a bunker but have been impressed with its use as revettment.
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I was firmly in Ben's camp preferring real grass to plastic.
This summer I played out of a bunker at Longniddry and my host asked me what I thought of the artificial revetted face? Ooops, hadn't noticed. On closer inspection it was no more than 2' high and a few grass tufts we growing out of it, softening it a little.
I was quietly impressed.
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Tony
The early versions of the artificial revetting were terrible, like stacks of green Ryvita. They have dramatically improved the appearance by making the layers much thicker. Very hard to tell them apart from real turf now.
Still haven't actually used it. Was much too expensive for the JCB job, given the quantity involved.
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Ben
This recycled artificial grass would otherwise be tipped in a landfill, so I think it is a terrific use of a waste product. I've not thought to use it as a drainage carpet on the floor of a bunker but have been impressed with its use as revettment.
Robin
To me its being 'reused' not 'recycled' and its still a plastic material which really harms the environment (must be the eco-warrior in me!).
Using my risk assessment hat - it looks good however what happens when someone takes a heavy swipe at it and rips it off - you can touch up and repair with a small piece of grass but not with plastic. I have seen parts of hockey pitches patched up because they got ripped off if it was poorly done in the first place. I have small concerns whether it catches fire when someone stubs a cigarette on the revetted walls. Manufacturers tend to say that astroturf has very good fire protection properties however but not really 100% reassurance. Plus if a club goes through it could damage the golfers wrists more than grass faces.
It does save money in regards to maintenance and it looks neat/clean.
Cheers
Ben
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Ben
We're into semantics if discussing the difference in meaning between reused and recycled. The point being it is a worthwhile repurposing of an expired plastic product. Rather than throwing it away, it is being used in a positive, environmentally stable manner. It's a lot more expensive than natural turf revets, but if the blurb is to be believed you only have to 'build it once'.
The 'what if' arguments in your second paragraph are not things I cannot comment on with authority, but its been a while since I heard of a hockey pitch burning down!
Why don't you put your concerns to Richard Allen of Ecobunker? Adam Lawrence does his PR.
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Actually, I've just done it for you. I'll let you know what he says.
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Many modern architects set up their courses around the scratch player. I have always questioned this philosophy.
Dr Mac famously considered all abilities when he designed a course.
Modern architects are burdened with clients/modern player's expectations of a course-notably that the 22 handicap should be able to potentially reach every green in regulation-if only he play the "appropriate" set of tee.
Dr. Mac was only designing for 1-2 sets of tees, probably on the same pod, and was thinking about how to plot different level and scale players around the SAME course.
Seems many today are trying to design each course(tee set) around players-which is absolutely impossible one the scud missile is fired. (like when an area is called "out of play")
I'm frequently shocked when I'm around "experts" who talk about "turn points", carry yardages, bunker placement-as if there are exact formulas and each tee has to match up to predetermined distances.(as if there is some magic yardage an 18, a 9 or a scratch, (and now a Tour player) hits it)
Expectations have made this harder, and loss of scale have poured gas on the fire.
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Many modern architects set up their courses around the scratch player. I have always questioned this philosophy.
Dr Mac famously considered all abilities when he designed a course.
Modern architects are burdened with clients/modern player's expectations of a course-notably that the 22 handicap should be able to potentially reach every green in regulation-if only he play the "appropriate" set of tee.
Dr. Mac was only designing for 1-2 sets of tees, probably on the same pod, and was thinking about how to plot different level and scale players around the SAME course.
Seems many today are trying to design each course(tee set) around players-which is absolutely impossible one the scud missile is fired. (like when an area is called "out of play")
+1
I must say the use of plastic on golf courses concerns me. I don't have much of an issue with it used on bunkers as described above. However, I do worry that its use will spread to tees (nevermind greens and fairways). This effectively means the agronomy reason for removing trees near tees is dead. I saw a course last year which had far too many trees around the tee, but a plastic teeing area was in play. I shuddered when I saw it. It looked bad and gave an excuse to leave trees in play which should be removed.
Ciao
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Ben
We're into semantics if discussing the difference in meaning between reused and recycled. The point being it is a worthwhile repurposing of an expired plastic product. Rather than throwing it away, it is being used in a positive, environmentally stable manner. It's a lot more expensive than natural turf revets, but if the blurb is to be believed you only have to 'build it once'.
The 'what if' arguments in your second paragraph are not things I cannot comment on with authority, but its been a while since I heard of a hockey pitch burning down!
Why don't you put your concerns to Richard Allen of Ecobunker? Adam Lawrence does his PR.
Robin,
How many people smoke when playing hockey??
Plastics basically do catch fire, astroturf is said to be fire proof when sand is used which is not 100% guarantee however it does not prevent it from melting if there was a fire nearby. A cigarette stub will make it melt and the exposed edges are not protected by sand.
There is a difference between reusing and recycling. The astroturf product has parts that can't be recycled and takes 1000 years to break down.
There is also organic matter not sure you have taken this into account - plastics will definitely affect the soil and having no grass or dead grass stops the natural biological process happening which will affect the undergrowth and especially the trees in the surrounding areas. This is a real concern that plastic will affect the natural surrounding environment.
It would be interesting to see how much affect the astroturf blanket has on the nearby green and grass surrounds of the bunkers in the long term. Has this process been tested? I see in parks with astroturf areas under swings and the surrounding grass is basically dead not just of wear and tear but the organic matter process not working.
EIGCA should have an internal vetting process to test products prior to using it on golf courses.
The person you are referring to is no biologist he has a highways, drainage, infrastructure and hydraulics background so any question raised with him is irrelevant in this regard as he is not expert in the exact material itself. He is using it for his own company's gain -someone else's idea in a different way.
Don't always get answers from companies/reps - find it out yourself its something I have really learned to do in the building industry.
I for one would persuade clients not to use this product because of the type of material it is and the potential impacts on the natural organic matter of the soils.
cheers
Ben
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Ben
That's an interesting point you raise about the EIGCA vetting products, although perhaps more a question for the STRI or USGA Greens Section, who have laboratories for such things. Still, you are a Candidate for Membership of the EIGCA and it would be perfectly valid for you to raise your concerns to the appropriate committee, and perhaps directly to Jonathan Gaunt, the architect who has specified this method for Cavendish. FYI, Richard Allen (EcoBunker) is a Bronze Patron of the EIGCA.
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Ben
That's an interesting point you raise about the EIGCA vetting products, although perhaps more a question for the STRI or USGA Greens Section, who have laboratories for such things. Still, you are a Candidate for Membership of the EIGCA and it would be perfectly valid for you to raise your concerns to the appropriate committee, and perhaps directly to Jonathan Gaunt, the architect who has specified this method for Cavendish. FYI, Richard Allen (EcoBunker) is a Bronze Patron of the EIGCA.
Robin,
There are lots of questions about materials vetting process in the construction industry in the UK at present because two major insulation companies have misled everyone about their products. I suspect the vetting process in near future will be more stringent.
I guess I will have to find out how close EIGCA are with STRI. There will be more new materials coming through at a more accelerated rate in future even for golf courses such as the hybrid system used on football pitches would that transpire to golf courses?
Callaway are already testing graphene in golf balls. Maybe it would not be long til we use graphene as bunker liners and water can still percolate through it however is it safe in relation to soils and natural environment. Graphene is also being used as a water filter which gets the salt out of sea water :)
Cheers
Ben
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Ben
Can you point to evidence of plastic affecting the "natural" properties of soil?
Over 30 years in a tangential industry I never got a whisper of this.
Golf courses have drainage and irrigation pipes/sprinklers and the soft paths, signage etc already. I looked quite seriously at jumping onto the Astroturf in gardens bandwagon maybe 20 years ago. None of my research suggested this (in the end we didn't want to get involved with the domestic market) and its been installed by a lot of people with shrubbeds surroundingit.. My local parks have Astroturf cricket wickets with no apparent problems surrounding them.
We cant have it both ways. An innert material that "poisons" (too strong?) The soil around it? I'm having trouble understanding that idea.
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Ben,
The cart paths at Silloth (and countless other courses) are made from reused astroturf.
I’ve never noticed any deterioration in the quality of the surrounding sward whatsoever.
As for combustibility, that’s just bonkers! 🤣
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Ben
Can you point to evidence of plastic affecting the "natural" properties of soil?
Over 30 years in a tangential industry I never got a whisper of this.
Golf courses have drainage and irrigation pipes/sprinklers and the soft paths, signage etc already. I looked quite seriously at jumping onto the Astroturf in gardens bandwagon maybe 20 years ago. None of my research suggested this (in the end we didn't want to get involved with the domestic market) and its been installed by a lot of people with shrubbeds surroundingit.. My local parks have Astroturf cricket wickets with no apparent problems surrounding them.
We cant have it both ways. An innert material that "poisons" (too strong?) The soil around it? I'm having trouble understanding that idea.
Hi Tony,
There have been light plastic liners used many time as bunker liners and in planting - this is different to the astroturf variations IMO as the astroturf are much thicker and heavier plus has more plastic which is more granular in structure. Eco bunker also use cement backing to keep the revetted parts intact not sure whether they use a similar material to line the base of the bunker. The do improve the drainage generally but these materials and drainage do have an effect on the soil nutrients as they are alien material and the area is dried up more quickly.
I have not seen astroturf being used as a bunker liner but I am concerned because its not very good for the environment and feel that 'Eco bunker' as a product is a misnomer. Has the company got any proof that it does not affect the surrounds where a large section of astroturf lining is used?
The only example of astroturf affecting soil content and moisture I can think of is when I played cricket for a village club and the square we played on in that match was right next to the astroturf strip with a shallow concrete base. The pitch on that square we played on was horrendous and I asked my colleague who was the clubs groundsman he said the soil content and moisture was affected by being next to the astroturf which led to it having huge cracks probably the biggest i have seen playing cricket and it was rather dangerous that I resorted to wearing a helmet which i very rarely wore whilst batting - the opposition said they watered it in the morning prior to the game on a rather warm day. The grass pitches next to it further away from the astroturf strip either side was much better. My colleague said to me thats why 'I don't have this at our place'
So my question for you - did you actually look up closely the astroturf section with a concrete base and the two grass pitches either side on the cricket square in summer?. Cricket pitches often look good from a distance however it is different when you closely look at them.
An excerpt from https://biofriendlyplanet.com/green-ideas/eco-friendly/just-eco-friendly-artificial-grass/ (https://biofriendlyplanet.com/green-ideas/eco-friendly/just-eco-friendly-artificial-grass/) - "It takes thousands of years for topsoil to develop but it can easily be lost through erosion, either by wind or water. Natural grass helps significantly in preventing this from happening. That’s because real grass sends many fine rootlets into crevices of the soil where they grow and, as they decay, add organic matter to the soil.Unfortunately, it is recommended the soil be heavily compacted and leveled before any synthetic grass is installed. This process damages the structure of the soil and kills soil microbes. It can also potentially damage the roots of trees within the area'.
Bunkers are quite a large area and small plastic microbes filtering out of the granular structure from the astroturf will breach through the soil damaging a healthy area of soil in the long term.
So for me it is a case of wait and see what effect this approach used at Cavendish has over the long term. Maybe we will find out at BUDA next year whether it has an effect on it or not. also it would be interesting to know whether an agronomist has been involved as well?
I just feel that too many are jumping on the Ecobunker bandwagon without vetting or testing and understanding the materials - the pros and cons/possible effects etc. I do try and encourage avoiding using plastic where I can in both architecture and Golf course design. Plastic is basically destroying most of the planet.
Cheers Ben
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Ben,
The cart paths at Silloth (and countless other courses) are made from reused astroturf.
I’ve never noticed any deterioration in the quality of the surrounding sward whatsoever.
As for combustibility, that’s just bonkers! 🤣
Maybe you are not looking closely enough and suggest you take a magnifying glass next time :) compare it with the grasses further away from the path.
Not sure if you are aware plastic is made from petroleum ::) astroturf is a thermoplastic (oil based) and has fire retardant added to it however it doesn't prevent it from melting. I wonder if the company used at Cavendish actually do rigorous testing on their 'reused' astroturf materials and not all of them will be the same and likely to have inconsistent properties - some astroturf are well built and others poorly built depending on where they are sourced from.
Most astroturf manufacturers advise customers to keep barbecues, cigarettes and motorised machinery away from it
Don't take advice from an assumed expert or salesmen. I would ask them hard questions and ask others who have expertise or knowledge regarding plastics.
Thermoplastics are prevalent on roads and on very hot days they become spongey.
There are different requirements for astroturf indoors and outdoors. I worked for a practice that had a client a very well known major furniture retailer and their head office had astroturf flooring in some areas of it - the astroturf internally had to have a much higher fire rating than one that is used outdoors which has a lower fire rating. So the ones used at Cavendish will likely to have a lower fire rating. It is not 100% sure fire protected.
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Ben,
Should we replace the wooden benches we have at most tees? The wooden tee blocks?
What about the wooden furniture on the terrace outside the clubhouse?
Trees don’t come with a fire certificate. Technically they can burn - we’ve all seen the images of forest fires on the telly. I’ve heard lots of good reasons for felling trees on golf courses but being a fire hazard is a new one on me.
;)
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Ben,
Should we replace the wooden benches we have at most tees? The wooden tee blocks?
What about the wooden furniture on the terrace outside the clubhouse?
Trees don’t come with a fire certificate. Technically they can burn - we’ve all seen the images of forest fires on the telly. I’ve heard lots of good reasons for felling trees on golf courses but being a fire hazard is a new one on me.
;)
Duncan
Umm - I did not make any reference to timber or trees??
Most materials do catch fire its what is released into the atmosphere is key.
The difference is that trees/timber are natural and plastic isn't.
Plastic releases more harmful toxins and can be damaging to the natural environment over time.
Wood is biodegradable. Most plastics aren't. Plastics are recommended to be buried in fill rather than burned.
Fire retardant wood does not melt. Fire retardant plastic does.
Wood burns at a slower pace. Plastic burns at a more rapid pace.
The natural environment of this planet is being destroyed by plastics. Timber does not do so.
Reused plastic is not an eco product. Timber is
Timber is carbon neutral. Plastic isn't.
Plastic is harmful to the local animals. timber isn't
My biggest concern is that this product has not been properly vetted and tested for use on golf courses. It is potentially more harmful than most think it is and a lot of people /clubs have jumped on the bandwagon thinking it is a wonderful solution without a proper risk assessment.
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In fairness, Ben has a point.
Plastic bunkers are environmentally friendly in that they - in theory - require less maintenance, less machinery, less manpower, less stripping of natural turf etc... So there’s a return on investment and economic sustainability.
But the materials are certainly not environmentally friendly.
Perhaps the question is what would have happened to that used astroturf had it not been used for bunker building? Is the use of artificial turf in bunkers leading to an aggregate increase in the production of artificial turf?
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Ally
It would go in a landfill.
I contacted Richard Allen of EcoBunker and he kindly provided a response to Ben's charges. See below.
Ben, I'm curious to know if you ever refused, on a point of principle, to play hockey on an artificial pitch?
Over and out.
Fire risk- we did actually test it at the start and tried to set it on fire with naked flames. There was some scorching and localised melting but the material doesn’t continue to burn after the source flame is removed. It would take a very determined prolonged act of vandalism to cause noticeable damage. In other words, unless you drench it with an accelerant like petrol , you can’t set it on fire and leave it burn. Regarding the ecobunker walls, the same comment- but this time we can point to literally thousands of bunkers worldwide over the last 10 years and not one single report of fire. (A cheeky point perhaps- i’d say with a fair degree of certainty that peat-rich natural revetting turf , during a hot dry summer would be far more at risk of burning- a golf course i was a member of, with a high peat content underneath actually had a ban on smoking in 1983 because the 13th fairway was smouldering all summer, with worries about the rest of the course going up in flames too- true story)
Is it recycled or reused? A debatable point, and perhaps not that important, but we do carry out careful reprocessing. We calculated the weight of the material, and cut it into sizes that can be installed by hand , negating the need to use heavy lifting apparatus. We also developed a jointing technique and we are very selective on the type of artificial turf that’s used for lining (we use 1st generation needlepunch turf) which has a very high density of fibres - much more dense than more commonly used 2nd generation sand fill - which is the usual type for hockey pitches. It would take a really determined , deliberate effort to cause any damage to it...
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Well, I guess if it all goes in to landfill, it is not adding to the production of artificial turf and it does not add to transport or manufacturing, then the point that I thought Ben might have had no longer stands up.
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Ally
It would go in a landfill.
I contacted Richard Allen of EcoBunker and he kindly provided a response to Ben's charges. See below.
Ben, I'm curious to know if you ever refused, on a point of principle, to play hockey on an artificial pitch?
Over and out.
Fire risk- we did actually test it at the start and tried to set it on fire with naked flames. There was some scorching and localised melting but the material doesn’t continue to burn after the source flame is removed. It would take a very determined prolonged act of vandalism to cause noticeable damage. In other words, unless you drench it with an accelerant like petrol , you can’t set it on fire and leave it burn. Regarding the ecobunker walls, the same comment- but this time we can point to literally thousands of bunkers worldwide over the last 10 years and not one single report of fire. (A cheeky point perhaps- i’d say with a fair degree of certainty that peat-rich natural revetting turf , during a hot dry summer would be far more at risk of burning- a golf course i was a member of, with a high peat content underneath actually had a ban on smoking in 1983 because the 13th fairway was smouldering all summer, with worries about the rest of the course going up in flames too- true story)
Is it recycled or reused? A debatable point, and perhaps not that important, but we do carry out careful reprocessing. We calculated the weight of the material, and cut it into sizes that can be installed by hand , negating the need to use heavy lifting apparatus. We also developed a jointing technique and we are very selective on the type of artificial turf that’s used for lining (we use 1st generation needlepunch turf) which has a very high density of fibres - much more dense than more commonly used 2nd generation sand fill - which is the usual type for hockey pitches. It would take a really determined , deliberate effort to cause any damage to it...
Robin,
Was these fire tests done by an independent expert? The fire rating for outdoor astroturf (Rating E or higher) is a lot less than for use indoors (Rating B or higher).
More hockey pitches at top level are becoming waterbased rather than sand based.
Hockey pitches are not really built out in the countryside where there is an natural environment like golf courses. Old and reused surfaces are more likely to be cut open which exposes plastic particles to filtrate through the soil.
Cheers
Ben
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Ally
I thought you made a good point with your first post when you asked "Is the use of artificial turf in bunkers leading to an aggregate increase in the production of artificial turf?" At the moment presumably the amount of second hand astro-turf outstrips demand for Eco bunkers but what happens when it really takes off and the demand for Eco bunkers outstrips the amount of recycled material available ? Simple economics and business sense suggest that new material will be created which kind of negates one of the benefits of this system.
Niall
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Niall,
I think we’ve got a way to go before the demand for Ecobunker material outstrips the supply of old Astroturf.
The amount of material in the stacked edge of a typical Ecobunker is minimal. Even a fully revetted links style bunker such as the ones at my other club Silloth don’t actually contain that much material.
The recent development of using the reused artificial turf as a liner clearly increases demand, but compared to its use as a surface for cart paths the quantities involved are doubtless still small.
I don’t have any interest in Ecobunker other than being a member of two golf clubs which have invested heavily into the construction method. I guess that gives me reason enough to hope that it is successful. My gut feeling is that reusing the material rather than sending it to landfill has got to be a good thing.
Does it fit in with a classic golden age course? Why not?
MacKenzie didn’t use artificial turf to construct his bunkers. He didn’t use bulldozers on his early courses either - because he didn’t have them at his disposal.
If bulldozers and the Ecobunker system had been available would he have used them?
My guess is that he possibly would.
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Well, I guess if it all goes in to landfill, it is not adding to the production of artificial turf and it does not add to transport or manufacturing, then the point that I thought Ben might have had no longer stands up.
This to me is prioritising 'making a quick buck' and reusing a material bought cheaply that could still have an impact on the natural local soil and animal environment that may not be repaired for 100, 1000 years or so.
Surely there are other ways to reuse astroturf. Some parts of the astroturf is rubber which is much more eco friendly than plastic. Rubber could be extracted/separated from harmful elements and recycled whereas the plastic parts of the astroturf ideally would be recycled for uses other than using it in natural environs. Throwing it on landfill is cutting corners and pure laziness.
99.9 percent of the human race would take the easy option in this instance which is more financially driven in the long term.
For me as much i love the course for me Cavendish is no longer a 'natural' golf course due to toxic/alien materials used on the course in large numbers.
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Green side 'up' or green side 'down'? (sic)
:):):):):):):)
atb
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703850302_9cb4e1fb8e_z.jpg)
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Ben,
Using words like “toxic” on a public forum to describe a company’s product is unwise and could prove expensive.
I advise caution.
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Ben,
Using words like “toxic” on a public forum to describe a company’s product is unwise and could prove expensive.
I advise caution.
Why?? Its not their actual product isn't it? this is a reused product made by another company which they chose to extract/buy and when it melts it does releases toxic materials so therefore it is 'toxic' which is a risk. They should put in an advisory notice to all customers regarding this as they can be liable for this if the toxic elements are released.
Both your clubs have made that choice to use those materials and they should add caution IMO.
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Hopefully we can get back on topic.
The new bunkers on holes 1,2 and 3 have now been turfed and await their sand.
Hole 1 from 140 yards out.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50736929142_390ff18d21_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kis2oo)IMG_5048 (https://flic.kr/p/2kis2oo) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
The two fairway bunkers on Hole 2 were originally slated to be grassed over, but member resistance led to a reprieve. While the contractors were on site they did a quick facelift job on them.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50736823106_ab9b25cd04_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kirtSb)IMG_5053 (https://flic.kr/p/2kirtSb) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
The 285 yard 3rd hole now looks as if it is surrounded by bunkers and that the green must be flown if it is to be reached from the tee.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50736929072_a02645f5bb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kis2nb)IMG_5050 (https://flic.kr/p/2kis2nb) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
A slight change of angle however, reveals that there is still a generous route in to the right of the line of front bunkers. It will be a brave shot in summer conditions, though!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50736087053_725a77a3a5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kinH4B)IMG_5055 (https://flic.kr/p/2kinH4B) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
Overall, I feel the restyled bunkers will hugely improve the first three holes, commonly thought to be the dullest section of the course. The 3rd in particular will be elevated to one of Cavendish's very best holes, and one of the classic driveable par 4s in English golf with its notoriously treacherous fall-away green. If you get even slightly out of position it is possibly the hardest stroke 18 hole you will ever play!
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Duncan,
Thanks for these and thanks also for bringing us back on topic!
Are you sure this post isnt just an opportunity to show a great approach to the 1st green? ;)
The photo of the bunkers on the 2nd looks like the existing fairway bunkers? I thought the plan was to grass those over and put a new bunker further up or have plans changed? Are you able to post details of the Masterplan?
There also appear to be channels coming away from the bunkers which I assume are drainage? We all know drainage is a key part of good architecture, but its not an area I know much about, so the opportunity to discuss a specific example I'm familiar with is not to be missed! If that is drainage, are they connected to an existing drain there, a soakaway of some sorts, or do they just drain away naturally after that? Just curious and while I suspect its not your area of expertise either Duncan 8) I hope one of architects could let me know?
I really like the look of the back right bunker on the 3rd and hope that more of the back bunkers that look so wonderful in the old photos can be reinstated.
Please continue to keep us informed on progress.
Cheers,
James
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Duncan,
Thanks for these and thanks also for bringing us back on topic!
Are you sure this post isnt just an opportunity to show a great approach to the 1st green? ;)
The photo of the bunkers on the 2nd looks like the existing fairway bunkers? I thought the plan was to grass those over and put a new bunker further up or have plans changed? Are you able to post details of the Masterplan?
There also appear to be channels coming away from the bunkers which I assume are drainage? We all know drainage is a key part of good architecture, but its not an area I know much about, so the opportunity to discuss a specific example I'm familiar with is not to be missed! If that is drainage, are they connected to an existing drain there, a soakaway of some sorts, or do they just drain away naturally after that? Just curious and while I suspect its not your area of expertise either Duncan 8) I hope one of architects could let me know?
I really like the look of the back right bunker on the 3rd and hope that more of the back bunkers that look so wonderful in the old photos can be reinstated.
Please continue to keep us informed on progress.
Cheers,
James
The viewpoint for the pic of the 1st wasn't from where I placed my tee shot! I went back out after my round today to take the photos and this was to recreate the "before" pic posted earlier in this thread.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50703850327_cdd93df6ae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwucZ)1 (https://flic.kr/p/2kfwucZ) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50736929142_390ff18d21_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kis2oo)I (https://flic.kr/p/2kis2oo)
Yes, the fairway bunkers on Hole 2 haven't been reshaped - they've merely had the drainage sorted out, been lined and re-edged. I'm not sure where the drain lines go to and you are quite right - I know very little about drainage other than water flows downhill!
It was decided as a matter of policy not to build any new bunkers at this stage - we are conscious of the need to make our limited funds go as far as possible and not to be seen to be embarking on extravagant new developments so soon after staring financial oblivion in the face.
The back bunker on Hole 3 is a MacKenzie original which was grassed over many years ago. This is a reinstatement.
The bunker renewal programme is scheduled to take three years. It is certainly intended to reinstate other lost bunkers such as the iconic ones at the back of #14.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50070686886_569cec9321_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jhzmLW)14 (https://flic.kr/p/2jhzmLW) by Duncan Cheslett (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185291780@N03/), on Flickr
Incidentally, the construction method on the new bunker edges turns out not to be stacked astroturf at all, but stacked natural turf. Astroturf has been used for the liners and for one layer around the edge. I had a really good poke round this afternoon and established this for myself.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50736934441_dacb1c7edb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kis3XK)
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Duncan,
Looking at a GE image it would appear that there is a drain line or similar that runs across the front of the 3rd tees and then across the 2nd fairway toward the 1st fairway. I would imagine the drains for the two fairway bunkers have been tapped into that.
(https://scontent-lhr8-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/131932985_10223559881403601_8751118375239992127_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_eui2=AeHJxQvsGyw-z8WV8K5W0D8vF0UIS4pPy8kXRQhLik_LycCFcUupfQwZqShRwVHyPj8&_nc_ohc=RlL1dBHxKdQAX8eQeOP&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-2.xx&oh=2e1da1adc959d30f30fac38cbfa0125c&oe=60043210)
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Duncan,
Looking at a GE image it would appear that there is a drain line or similar that runs across the front of the 3rd tees and then across the 2nd fairway toward the 1st fairway. I would imagine the drains for the two fairway bunkers have been tapped into that.
(https://scontent-lhr8-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/131932985_10223559881403601_8751118375239992127_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_eui2=AeHJxQvsGyw-z8WV8K5W0D8vF0UIS4pPy8kXRQhLik_LycCFcUupfQwZqShRwVHyPj8&_nc_ohc=RlL1dBHxKdQAX8eQeOP&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-2.xx&oh=2e1da1adc959d30f30fac38cbfa0125c&oe=60043210)
A reminder of how useful the dry summer of 2018 was in identifying lost drainage lines!
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Ben,
Ice melts. But its a long time since I saw a glacier on fire.
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Duncan,
Looking at a GE image it would appear that there is a drain line or similar that runs across the front of the 3rd tees and then across the 2nd fairway toward the 1st fairway. I would imagine the drains for the two fairway bunkers have been tapped into that.
(https://scontent-lhr8-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/131932985_10223559881403601_8751118375239992127_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_eui2=AeHJxQvsGyw-z8WV8K5W0D8vF0UIS4pPy8kXRQhLik_LycCFcUupfQwZqShRwVHyPj8&_nc_ohc=RlL1dBHxKdQAX8eQeOP&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-2.xx&oh=2e1da1adc959d30f30fac38cbfa0125c&oe=60043210)
Thanks Neil, good observation!
Cheers,
James
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50736934441_dacb1c7edb_z.jpg)
That's interesting. I wonder why they went for the traditional riveting rather than the usual ecobunker astroturf riveting?
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There was resistance among certain sectors of the membership to the idea of plastic bunker edges on a historic course. Ultimately our architect specified natural turf for the edges.
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Duncan,
Any idea what depth of sand they’re proposing?
Cheers,
F.
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Duncan,
Any idea what depth of sand they’re proposing?
Cheers,
F.
I was going to ask the same. The cavity on the slopes looks to be quite shallow.
Ciao
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Duncan,
Any idea what depth of sand they’re proposing?
Cheers,
F.
I was going to ask the same. The cavity on the slopes looks to be quite shallow.
Ciao
Sean,
Exactly that and I also can’t help but think there won’t be much of a bunker lip left by the time they get some sand in there.
F.
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If it were me, I'd be putting no more than 100mm in the base, down to 50mm at the top. Expect it to compact down to 75mm. That should give you the firmness you need and enough depth to bed your feet in without catching the liner.
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Robin has it spot on.
We don't want deep sand - just deep enough. We also don't particularly want the stacked edge to be a visible feature. If the sand comes right up to the top of the lip (and stays there) we'll be happy.
The slopes on the faces were carefully kept below 30 deg to facilitate the sand sticking in place.
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I hope the sand isn't as firm as at Liphook. I didn't like the new sand at all there.
Is there an advantage to revetted bunkers?
Merry Christmas
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Bump for 2021 Buda Pests
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Since the last page of this thread is concerned with the bunker lining let me start there and say I had forgotten this thread and the story of the eco bunker lining, so was rather perplexed when I bottomed out on a bit of astro-turf when trying to play out of a bunker. Not sure if that was a construction issue or simply one of not enough sand in the bunker ?
Anyway I totally agree with an awful lot of the comments made on here over 8 pages and a span of 12 years. Cavendish is a delight. I've long considered that MacKenzies work at Duff House Royal showed what could be done with a pretty flat site and now he has shown to me what can be done with a fairly hilly one too. It also demonstrated to me how slowing down the greens allows some "interesting" pin positions to come into play.
Sadly, not all plaudits. I'm not referring to the bunkering whether old or new, which looked and played fine to me, the odd bottoming out on the liner aside. I'm actually referring to the same issue that Sean seems to have found on his initial tour and that is the mowing lines both for the greens but also for the fairways. Quite a few of the greens appeared to have shrunk and many would be significantly improved (IMO) if pushed out by two or three feet.
The big issue however is the fairway lines. For a course where the primary defence/interest is the greens, and getting the line of approach right, it was disappointing to find some of the fairways brought in to form pinch points with others being narrow for no real good reason. The rough itself was long enough to make finding a ball difficult and once found wiry/thick enough to leave nothing other than a chunk out. That got tiresome very quickly.
Cases in point include the wonderful 3rd. Possibly the best par 4 on the course which begs for a drive high on the right to run down on to the green. Sadly the line of the rough on the right makes this very difficult. Also the left of the 16th fairway for the drive. It may well be a resourcing issue in reducing the amount of short grass but given the deliberate pinch points I'm not sure. I'd urge the club to prioritise this over tree removal as I think it would have a much bigger impact.
However so as not to dwell on negatives let me say that I think the greens were superb with the 8th being the pick of the bunch for me followed perhaps by the aforementioned 3rd.
Niall
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A few words on the historical footnotes;
From the old b&w photos that Duncan posted earlier in the thread it does appear to me that the 4th and 7th greens are not original. The 4th in particular looks as though it is now half the size and that originally it was a version of the Himalyas at St Andrews. MacKenzies plan seems to support that idea. Possibly it was prone to flooding and that the pond on the left was a borrow pit to provide material to raise the green ?
I also tend to agree the 11th and 14th were double tiered, especially the 11th which would make it strikingly similar to holes at Pitreavie and Pasatiempo.
Niall
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I've been happily following James (Not a Perfect Golfer) for several months now, as he has chronicled his journey from new golfer to 14-18 handicapper, each week showing us every shot from his latest round in a positive, upbeat and understated way. Every course I've seen him play so far has been in Wales; but today it was delightful to see him at Cavendish -- and he provides a great look at every hole of the course from the perspective an average golfer who hits it about 200 yds off the tee.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E7x14EaCnxA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E7x14EaCnxA)
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I've been happily following James (Not a Perfect Golfer) for several months now, as he has chronicled his journey from new golfer to 14-18 handicapper, each week showing us every shot from his latest round in a positive, upbeat and understated way. Every course I've seen him play so far has been in Wales; but today it was delightful to see him at Cavendish -- and he provides a great look at every hole of the course from the perspective an average golfer who hits it about 200 yds off the tee.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E7x14EaCnxA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E7x14EaCnxA)
I enjoyed remembering the course but I sure had a hard time watching him swing.
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I've been happily following James (Not a Perfect Golfer) for several months now, as he has chronicled his journey from new golfer to 14-18 handicapper, each week showing us every shot from his latest round in a positive, upbeat and understated way. Every course I've seen him play so far has been in Wales; but today it was delightful to see him at Cavendish -- and he provides a great look at every hole of the course from the perspective an average golfer who hits it about 200 yds off the tee.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E7x14EaCnxA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E7x14EaCnxA)
I enjoyed remembering the course but I sure had a hard time watching him swing.
One of the reasons I enjoy watching James is that his temperament and approach to the game is so different than mine. I tend to focus on the mechanics of hitting a proper golf shot, and on the aesthetic and physical pleasures of a full and fluid golf swing, while James has very clearly (and rightly, I think) focused instead on trying to get the ball into the hole in the fewest number of strokes possible. It is a real lesson to me how 'inelegant' a golfer can look and how 'plodding' he can play while still managing to get from beginner to 14 handicapper in less than a year.