Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Neil_Crafter on March 28, 2009, 05:12:19 PM
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My sources tell me that Richard Forsyth, currently superintendent at Metropolitan, has been appointed to the post at Royal Melbourne, taking over from Jim Porter on July 1. With Peter Frewin leaving Barwon Heads, and now the top job up for grabs at Metro, there will be a cascading effect of changes in the Melbourne turf scene.
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Interesting.
1) Do you think he will be charged with "Metropolitanising" it in terms of conditioning?
2) How is the RM job seen by supers these days, particularly in relation to the Metro job?
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For us yankees.....
what are the differences between the two courses conditioning?
Obviously dry and firm, but could you compare it to an american version?
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Interesting.
1) Do you think he will be charged with "Metropolitanising" it in terms of conditioning?
2) How is the RM job seen by supers these days, particularly in relation to the Metro job?
Mark,
1) Metro has always been considered a "manicured course" compared to most other sand belt clubs, I think you will absolutely see more "attention to detail" although still in line with a typical sand belt/RM set up.
2) RM Sup job is the pinnacle of Australian greenskeeping period!
For us yankees.....
what are the differences between the two courses conditioning?
Obviously dry and firm, but could you compare it to an american version?
Ian,
The two courses are vastly different in set up. Metro has probably the best Couch (Bermuda) fairways most people have ever seen. The bunker edges are very clean, uniform straight edges. Metro doesn't have as much heath or native areas as RM so it has a little more "park land" look than RM. Metro mows their greens all the way to the bunker edge where as RM leaves an 18" collar around all greens and also leaves their bunker edges a little rougher than Metro.
Metro bunker edge:
(http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq87/smb_44/Metro.jpg)
Royal Melbourne bunker edge: (Some of the older RM greenskeepers know who's handy work this is ;))
(http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq87/smb_44/RMGCBunker.jpg)
I know with the above photos the Metro one was taken during the World Match Play and the RM one was taken during a regular week but you get the idea...
My sources tell me RM is converting some fairways to Legend Couch (Bermuda) and also looking into replacing the fairway irrigation. Currently RM has single row outdated fairway irrigation that doesn't have great coverage. I have also heard they are toying around with replacing some green surrounds with fine fescue. I'm not 100% sure but I think RM are scrapping the two grass fairway system also?
Richard will do a great job, he was easily the most experienced candidate in the country.
Still sad to see Jim go...
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Let me add a little to Stephen's comments.
Richard has been Super at Metro for the last 15 years. The following quote from Mike Clayton's October 2001 golfclubatlas interview explains aspects of the conditioning he oversaw there (How do you do those dialogue-box quotes?)
" 7. Golfers from a round the world seemed to be highly impressed by the conditioning of Metropolitan Golf Club during World Match Play tournament in January, 2001. How have the other sandbelt courses handled the pressure to compete maintenance wise with their nearby neighbor vs. balancing the cost against pursuing such an intense degree of maintenance?
It's true, the fairways were incredible and Metropolitan is now renowned Australia wide for their 'perfect fairways'. I’m a member there and I literally haven’t had anything less than a perfect lie in 8 years – but, I’m not sure that is such a great thing. The course plays 500 yards shorter than it used to because of the year round Couchgrass fairways, so from April to October it plays almost as it does in the Summer. It used to be an incredible long course in the Winter and it used to really change character with the seasons as Royal Melbourne still does.
If there is a problem with such perfection it is that people now look at 'imperfect fairways' and assume they are deficient in some way. Royal Melbourne doesn’t have 'perfect fairways' but they are perfect to play golf from. No other sandbelt club has increased its budget to Metropolitan’s levels in an attempt to achieve what was so revered by the Pro’s at the Matchplay."
RM used to be known for having hard, bouncing fairways in summer. Folklore around the club used to be that the fairways were never watered. This was considered a point of pride, although it was not strictly accurate - sufficient water was applied to prevent the couch becoming seriously distressed.
My hope is that Richard will apply the skills he's demonstrated at Metro to bring back RM's glory days (decades) under Claude Crockford's green-keeping, when both fairways and greens were modestly watered. But I'm not holding my breath...
Stephen,
Two fairways have been converted to Legend Couch, on a trial basis (6 West and 12 West). Not sure that any decision's been made yet to extend this program - those fairways have only been back in play a couple of months.
Fescue has already been planted in green surrounds, and also, I think, on at least some tees (as part of a blend of grasses). As fescue's not as water-hardy as some grasses, I suspect that planting it around the greens points toward the intended watering strategy for the greens.
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Warwick,
Thanks for the update.
Strange that they chose 6 & 12 west to trial the legend, I would have thought you would choose the smallest fairway on the non-composite course? When we replaced the first Suttons green we chose 12 east for that very reason, it was the smallest non-composite green.
I also remember 6 west fairway had a good stand of Santa Ana down on the right side by the fairway bunkers, it was always one of the better looking fairways on the west every summer?
Do you know if the two grass system has been terminated?
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Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
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Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
Cause it gets over 100 degrees during their summer months andfescue fairways just wouldnt make it.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
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Jim,
Thanks for the PM
Stephen,
I'm not aware of plans to go to a single grass system, but there are hopes of replacing poa with fescue as the winter grass. 6 West is to be used to trial this arrangement. (That hole will be trialed for Legend couch and fescue concurrently.) If trial results are satisfactory, then the idea is to roll fescue out as the winter grass across both courses, and to do so by around 2013. That's the official line.
I played recently with a long-term RM member who has also served on the committee of another club that has been through 'turf issues'. He speculated that there might be an alternative line of thinking, that fescue may eventually be used selectively, according to where it grows happily on the courses. They'd really struggled with fescue when they trialed it at his other course.
I'm unsure why those two fairways were picked. There seems clear logic to the approach you mention, trialing on short non-Composite holes. However, if there were to be a lack of confidence that fescue would thrive on all fairways, then possibly 6W & 12W were chosen because they were considered particularly promising candidates - that's just idle conjecture.
The real concern seems to be ridding the greens of poa, which is proving a challenge (at least with the methods being employed). In the absence of this issue, perhaps there wouldn't be an impetus to replace poa as the winter grass.
I have a question about poa control on RM's greens. During the Crockford decades (1937-75) it was not a problem. He kept the greens lean-and-mean, with minimal watering & fertilising. The result was brownish greens that were hard, fast and true - reputedly the world's best. Many (eg Graeme Grant) seem to think this watering regime prevented poa infestation from becoming a problem - clearly poa will struggle if not sufficiently watered during a Melbourne summer, and it needs more frequent watering than bent grass. However, I've also heard accounts that Crockford treated his greens with strong pesticides, which are now considered toxic and thus unsafe to use. So the question is whether Crockford's watering regime alone was sufficient to prevent poa infestation, or whether nasty chemicals also played an essential/significant role?
Tony,
We had a few days in succession around 110-115 degrees this year!
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Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
Anthony hit the nail on the head.
I have a question about poa control on RM's greens. During the Crockford decades (1937-75) it was not a problem. He kept the greens lean-and-mean, with minimal watering & fertilising. The result was brownish greens that were hard, fast and true - reputedly the world's best. Many (eg Graeme Grant) seem to think this watering regime prevented poa infestation from becoming a problem - clearly poa will struggle if not sufficiently watered during a Melbourne summer, and it needs more frequent watering than bent grass. However, I've also heard accounts that Crockford treated his greens with strong pesticides, which are now considered toxic and thus unsafe to use. So the question is whether Crockford's watering regime alone was sufficient to prevent poa infestation, or whether nasty chemicals also played an essential/significant role?
Warwick,
This is the 64 million dollar question and I'm sure everybody has their own theories.
I worked there for almost nine years under Jim Porter. When I started the non-composite greens were the original Suttons and the composite greens were Penncross. We had an Egmont chipping green, half of the main putting green was original Suttons and the other half was Penncross. We had another putting green we called “the five grass” over by the tennis courts that had five different bents all in neat sections and labeled, these were Suttons, Penncross, Egmont, Cobra and I can't remember the fifth. Anyway, my point is all the greens were surrounded by Poa Annua green surrounds and all were Poa free. I'm not sure what the process was when they replaced the composite greens to Penncross, this was started by Peter Williams (Claude Crockford's protégé) in 1988 and when Jim came on board in 1989 (ironically from Metropolitan) he still had 12 greens on the composite to convert to Penncross. What I can tell you is contrary to belief Jim keep the greens very lean and underwatered, I know because I sprayed them and was a part of watering them for a long time.
Remember, back in the Crockford years I'm sure there wasn't near the traffic as today and if you could go back in time I would love to see just how fast those greens really were compared to today??? 9' on the stimp may have been really fast to the members back then? There was nothing to truly measure the speeds back then and now all we have are stories and rumors that the greens were faster 50 years ago than they are today.
IMO the chemicals that Crockford and maybe even Williams were applying back then had a lot to do with the Poa free greens. Present day watering/fertilizer practices aren't solely to blame for the Poa problem. I have heard stories from greenskeepers that worked under Crockford and they would turn over Arsenic based pesticides into the topdressing by hand to topdress the greens annually. Obviously these trace elements stay in the sand for a long time and in leads case forever.
Back to when Peter Williams began and Jim completed the composite greens conversion with Penncross, I'm not sure how much of the native sand was disturbed? For example, they may have simply stripped the old Suttons and laid down new Penncross sod or seed. In the recent case of the greens replacement it was far more extensive than that. To cut a long story short we stripped the old sod, dumped it in a huge hole between 3w & 6W, gassed the greens with Methyl Bromide, rotary tilled the sand, laser leveled the original contours using Cad leveling programs and also added purchased sand where needed. It’s no secret that this may have affected the long lasting residual effect of these Arsenic based pesticides and also the micro-biology that had been keeping the greens Poa and disease free. Immediately after the new greens were seeded we were experiencing extensive Poa infestation and diseases that had never before been seen on the greens, namely several different fairy rings.
Another theory is as we all know Crockford rarely “aerified” the greens. Every few years he would strip the greens with a sod cutter (stacking the sod beside the green), and then remove the thatch by sod cutting again back to the sand. They would then lay the sod back on the sand. Maybe, not opening up the greens twice a year by aerifying (which is what they do now) helped by not giving the Poa seed a ¾” hole to settle into and germinate?
Hindsight is 20-20 and maybe the club should never have touched the original Suttons greens similar to how the Old Course treats their greens today. I wouldn’t be surprised if sometime in the future you see these Suttons greens ripped up again and the club will resort to one of these modern Penn A’s and G’s bents. Although, if it were my decision the fairways and green surrounds would be Poa free before I replaced a green. The two grass system has had its day and needs to go, the fairways need to be clean Couch. I think the fine fescue green surrounds would be great if they can establish it…
Just to think we dumped all that precious Suttons sod in a hole.... ???
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Can anyone comment if this will be potentially a good move for RM based on the track record of Mr Forsyth?
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"Another theory is as we all know Crockford never “aerified” the greens. Every few years he would strip the greens with a sod cutter (stacking the sod beside the green), and then remove the thatch by sod cutting again back to the sand. They would then lay the sod back on the sand. Maybe not opening up the greens twice a year (which is what they do now) helped by not giving the Poa seed a ¾” hole to settle into and germinate?"
Wow, I'll never whine about aerfying the greens again. Talk about keeping thatch under control, that method will do it, but you'd better have some damn good help operating the sod cutter and laying the sod back down.
With some of the grasses we use now, especially the ultra dwarf bermudas, using this method every couple of years is not a bad idea.
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Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
Cause it gets over 100 degrees during their summer months andfescue fairways just wouldnt make it.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
Anthony hit the nail on the head.
Anthony, Steven,
I brought a wall to wall fescue course through two summers of 40°C+ with no problems so I know it will take the heat even if it does go quite brown in the afternoon. The only thing I can think of is it is too humid but my recolection of my time spent on the Melbourne area is not that it was humid.
ps. the course remained poa free as well
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Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
Cause it gets over 100 degrees during their summer months andfescue fairways just wouldnt make it.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
Anthony hit the nail on the head.
Anthony, Steven,
I brought a wall to wall fescue course through two summers of 40°C+ with no problems so I know it will take the heat even if it does go quite brown in the afternoon. The only thing I can think of is it is too humid but my recolection of my time spent on the Melbourne area is not that it was humid.
ps. the course remained poa free as well
Couple of questions,
1) Was this on sand?
2) Did you grow in the fescue? Seed or sod...
3) Did you have readily available water, good irrigation coverage etc...
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Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
Cause it gets over 100 degrees during their summer months andfescue fairways just wouldnt make it.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
Anthony hit the nail on the head.
Anthony, Steven,
I brought a wall to wall fescue course through two summers of 40°C+ with no problems so I know it will take the heat even if it does go quite brown in the afternoon. The only thing I can think of is it is too humid but my recolection of my time spent on the Melbourne area is not that it was humid.
ps. the course remained poa free as well
Why even waste your time worry about fesuce going brown or surviving in temps that its not desinged for when you can have healthy, thriving bermudagrass? Fesuce cant take the traffic, the heat, HAS to have a good water source and is slow to recover, especially if you verticutting or aerifying.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
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Can anyone comment if this will be potentially a good move for RM based on the track record of Mr Forsyth?
David,
Judging by pics and what other supts have said, The Met club's conditioning speeks for itself.
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Great points, Go with what’s tried and true at your location. There isn't a golf course on the Melbourne sand belt with fescue fairways. If the fescue conversion didn't work we would have the same problem we have with the greens now.
Another point to make about these greens is the only information available regarding Suttons maintenance is what has been done at Royal Melbourne from day one. Remember, the new Suttons greens aren't "exactly" the same as the old. When they took samples from the old greens back to the lab to propagate a hand full of the old bents wouldn't set seed.
There is something to be said for seeding greens that have a plethora of information from University research and other clubs with the same grasses.
It's not like Richard can call on another Sup (except for Jim) with Suttons greens to trade ideas, RM is the only site with this grass. I think at one point back in the day several sand belt clubs did have Suttons greens although most have either been re-built or infested with Poa.
Actually Royal Adelaide may have Suttons greens? Neil Crafter would know?
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Stephen
In answer to your last question, old H L "Cargie" Rymill, original architect of Royal Adelaide with Gardiner, and sole designer of Kooyonga, visited the UK in 1923 and shortly thereafter was advertising himself as an agent in Australia for Suttons Seeds. So I would tend to think that Kooyonga would most likely have been sown with Suttons Mix, or a form thereof, but Royal Adelaide's greens were quite a bit older. As Rymill had nothing further to do with RA after he had resigned as their secretary, I would think it doubtful that he would have got Suttons into RA. But who knows for sure?
I recall a conversation my father Brian relayed to me from his days in commentating on one of the big tournaments at RM in the eighties, shortly after Peter Williams had taken over, and that his key to Poa control was minimal inputs of everything, water, fertilisers etc, essentially to starve the Poa out of existence.
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David,
Judging by pics and what other supts have said, The Met club's conditioning speeks for itself.
Does it? I've never seen the greens in good condition.
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I recall a conversation my father Brian relayed to me from his days in commentating on one of the big tournaments at RM in the eighties, shortly after Peter Williams had taken over, and that his key to Poa control was minimal inputs of everything, water, fertilisers etc, essentially to starve the Poa out of existence.
Pretty generic answer from Peter Williams, basic Poa control 101 in bent greens. Obviously Poa needs more water due to shallower roots than bent, it requires more N than bent also but, I have seen some pretty healthy Poa in the hungriest, drought stressed bent greens you can imagine. This is everyone's approach to Poa control although, those old RM greens were so clean of Poa and given that they were surrounded by Poa in the surrounds and the fairways during the winter my bets are on the old Arsenic based pesticides in the sand doing most of the work... Just my opinion.
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Couple of questions,
1) Was this on sand?
2) Did you grow in the fescue? Seed or sod...
3) Did you have readily available water, good irrigation coverage etc...
Stephen,
the course was on atleast 50 foot of sand/gravel. The fescue was grown from seed. We had a basic irrigation system, single row fairway and block system tees and greens but we used little water. I think maybe taking the water from just below the surface of the irrigation pond (-2ft) meant that the temperature difference was less between it and the ground temperature so causing less of a shock and a growth stop.
One thing I also noticed is that the fesue outside the irrigation seemed to do very well as well on just the mist from the irrigation
Why even waste your time worry about fesuce going brown or surviving in temps that its not desinged for when you can have healthy, thriving bermudagrass? Fesuce cant take the traffic, the heat, HAS to have a good water source and is slow to recover, especially if you verticutting or aerifying.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Tony,
Fesuce cant take the traffic: fescue will take a suprising amount of wear and tear if you look after it properly. If the ground is firm and the soil has enough air in it then even dormant grasses will hold up to a suprising amount of traffic. To put it in simple terms, grass usually dies due to lack of oxygen caused by compaction and not by the substance of the grass wearing out due to the amount of traffic going over it. Were wearing out the problem then bemuda would be worn away through the winter when it is dormant. A regular programme of spiking, star tining and slitting is more than enough to ensure fescue will stay around.
The heat: Quite clearly you haven't read my post I can assure you that it most certainly can.
HAS to have a good water source: Again, not any more than any other grass type and less than many. The fetish of over watering has done more damage to more courses than any other single thing.
is slow to recover: Not my experience.
Especially if you verticutting or aerifying: If by aerifying you mean hollow/solid tining and your verticutting in a period of low growth then your programme is at fault.
Tony,
I was simply interested with why at RM the fairways were not fescue. I never said that I thought that fescue was the best grass and I was hoping to get some worth while points and comments from people like Stephen and I thought you. I shared my experience of fescue about its ability to cope with heat and I find it a shame that I get such an off the cuff and frankly ill mannered answer from a fellow greenkeeper.
Any greenkeeper regardless of his position will get much more out of the profession if they keep an open mind and listen/learn the experiences of others about things they themslves might not fully understand. This is true even in cases where that information might never be useful in practice in their career.
On what is your opinion of fescue based? On the experience of working with it on a course which was successful at maintaining it or just theoretical. The reason I ask is you make a statement that I know to be clearly incorrect and that shows that you have either not read my post or have closed your mind to other opinions and worst still other peoples experiences.
I recall a conversation my father Brian relayed to me from his days in commentating on one of the big tournaments at RM in the eighties, shortly after Peter Williams had taken over, and that his key to Poa control was minimal inputs of everything, water, fertilisers etc, essentially to starve the Poa out of existence.
those old RM greens were so clean of Poa and given that they were surrounded by Poa in the surrounds and the fairways during the winter my bets are on the old Arsenic based pesticides in the sand doing most of the work... Just my opinion.
If fescue cant survive then how come poa does?
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Jon,
Good to hear about your success with the fescue, personally I don't have a lot of experience with fescue in a fairway situation. I mentioned that if they could establish it in the surrounds I think that could have potential. Jim was toying with the idea a few years back with replacing the poa surrounds with velvet bent. As far as the fairways go my opinion is they should just go to one grass couch fairways, in regards to the poa in the fairways from what I hear, with the recent drought the poa isn't surviving the winter?
Also the poa in the surrounds has been established for many many years and adapted to it's situation. This is why it still lives (along with irrigation from the greens), although I think to keep the greens poa free it has to come out and either a fescue or couch must be established.
These photos are from Mark Bourgeois's thread a few months back at RMGC. These are the only photos I could find that look like they were taken in the winter, notice the sparce poa.
(http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq87/smb_44/RMGC44.jpg)
(http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq87/smb_44/RMGC45.jpg)
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Stephen,
I had the good fortune to play RM back in the summer of 1998/99. I found the east to be very good with the west being outstanding. I grew up around Leeds, north east England which is prime Mackenzie land. I noticed around the west that although the look was quiet different the general questions asked of the golfer was very similar to those asked by Alwoodley, Headingly, etc.
The course played well although some areas around the green were fluffy. I have no knowledge of couch grass or how to maintain it so I can't make a comment on its suitability compared to other grasses. What I look at when selecting a grass is its playing characteristics. If they are the ones required then and the grass is suited to the climate then it should be okay. Notice, I don't say its maintenance pros and cons, if the course is playing well and it is sustainable long term then this is of secondary importance.
By the way, velvet bent is a great grass but you need to keep on top of the thatch which it builds up almost as quick as you can verticut it.
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The course played well although some areas around the green were fluffy. I have no knowledge of couch grass or how to maintain it so I can't make a comment on its suitability compared to other grasses. What I look at when selecting a grass is its playing characteristics. If they are the ones required then and the grass is suited to the climate then it should be okay. Notice, I don't say its maintenance pros and cons, if the course is playing well and it is sustainable long term then this is of secondary importance.
By the way, velvet bent is a great grass but you need to keep on top of the thatch which it builds up almost as quick as you can verticut it.
The velvet was just a shot in the dark. We established a small plot on the nursery and soon came to the same conclusion, too thatchy.
Strange that some areas around the greens were fluffy? 95% of the green surrounds at RM are tightly mown poa.
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My understanding is that the sutton's mix is more 'brown top bent' in nature than creeping bent. As such, it is not an easy grass to deal with in extreme heat, and will be more difficult than say A1 bent to manage during summer. The writings on the greens and surrounds maintenance makes fascinating reading guys. Thanks.
The critical issue that I see is how the playability of Royal Melbourne will be affected by any change of turf-types. I do not know the course well enough to know the two Legend couch trial holes. However, I have enjoyed the Legend couch used at St Andrews beach, at Ranfurlie and at Rosanna. It is far preferable in my opinion to the dwarf-leaf of Santa Anna as used at Metropolitan.. It seems to play closer in style and speed to the traditional couch grass.
The test for the trial holes (in my opinion) will be how the ball moves on the slopes. If the roll is similar with Legend to that under the old two-grass policy, then the trial could be a success. If the ball roll increases (as it would with Santa Anna) then there will be a major problem.
James B
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My understanding is that the sutton's mix is more 'brown top bent' in nature than creeping bent. As such, it is not an easy grass to deal with in extreme heat, and will be more difficult than say A1 bent to manage during summer. The writings on the greens and surrounds maintenance makes fascinating reading guys. Thanks.
You are correct Suttons mix is considered a "Tenuis Bentgrass" not a "Creeping Bentgrass". I did hear once the list of different bents in the mix, I can't remember now, there were a lot. Although, I seem to remember hearing there was a fescue in the mix.
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Stephen
Those actually are from late summer! Some are from last March, which I recall was shortly after a big heat wave had just ended.
Enjoying the discussion of couch fairways and Crocky greens greatly. A few questions.
1) Regarding fairways, will all the various grasses and blends discussed produce the lies for which the Sand Belt and RM are known? I am assuming that is a given and that this discussion is focused on producing healthy turf. These lies are one of the distinctive aspects of the Sand Belt and to this layman seems a miracle that such a links-like experience is available in such a setting.
Or is the implied goal ultimately about making the fairways look pretty or provide Augusta-like "uniform lies"? I am letting my bias show but I would hope the prime directive would be to ensure tight, tight lies and that if some grass must brown, go dormant or even die that is the price to pay!
2) Thought experiment: suppose someone came to this group of experts and said something along the lines of, "We want Crocky's greens back -- maybe not the exact strains but whatever it takes to go back to how those greens played. We are willing to close the club for 2-3 years, or go with temp greens, if you tell us that's what it take."
Could you do it?
Thanks to all for this neat thread!
Mark
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Couple of questions,
1) Was this on sand?
2) Did you grow in the fescue? Seed or sod...
3) Did you have readily available water, good irrigation coverage etc...
Stephen,
the course was on atleast 50 foot of sand/gravel. The fescue was grown from seed. We had a basic irrigation system, single row fairway and block system tees and greens but we used little water. I think maybe taking the water from just below the surface of the irrigation pond (-2ft) meant that the temperature difference was less between it and the ground temperature so causing less of a shock and a growth stop.
One thing I also noticed is that the fesue outside the irrigation seemed to do very well as well on just the mist from the irrigation
Why even waste your time worry about fesuce going brown or surviving in temps that its not desinged for when you can have healthy, thriving bermudagrass? Fesuce cant take the traffic, the heat, HAS to have a good water source and is slow to recover, especially if you verticutting or aerifying.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Tony,
Fesuce cant take the traffic: fescue will take a suprising amount of wear and tear if you look after it properly. If the ground is firm and the soil has enough air in it then even dormant grasses will hold up to a suprising amount of traffic. To put it in simple terms, grass usually dies due to lack of oxygen caused by compaction and not by the substance of the grass wearing out due to the amount of traffic going over it. Were wearing out the problem then bemuda would be worn away through the winter when it is dormant. A regular programme of spiking, star tining and slitting is more than enough to ensure fescue will stay around.
The heat: Quite clearly you haven't read my post I can assure you that it most certainly can.
HAS to have a good water source: Again, not any more than any other grass type and less than many. The fetish of over watering has done more damage to more courses than any other single thing.
is slow to recover: Not my experience.
Especially if you verticutting or aerifying: If by aerifying you mean hollow/solid tining and your verticutting in a period of low growth then your programme is at fault.
Tony,
I was simply interested with why at RM the fairways were not fescue. I never said that I thought that fescue was the best grass and I was hoping to get some worth while points and comments from people like Stephen and I thought you. I shared my experience of fescue about its ability to cope with heat and I find it a shame that I get such an off the cuff and frankly ill mannered answer from a fellow greenkeeper.
Any greenkeeper regardless of his position will get much more out of the profession if they keep an open mind and listen/learn the experiences of others about things they themslves might not fully understand. This is true even in cases where that information might never be useful in practice in their career.
On what is your opinion of fescue based? On the experience of working with it on a course which was successful at maintaining it or just theoretical. The reason I ask is you make a statement that I know to be clearly incorrect and that shows that you have either not read my post or have closed your mind to other opinions and worst still other peoples experiences.
I recall a conversation my father Brian relayed to me from his days in commentating on one of the big tournaments at RM in the eighties, shortly after Peter Williams had taken over, and that his key to Poa control was minimal inputs of everything, water, fertilisers etc, essentially to starve the Poa out of existence.
those old RM greens were so clean of Poa and given that they were surrounded by Poa in the surrounds and the fairways during the winter my bets are on the old Arsenic based pesticides in the sand doing most of the work... Just my opinion.
If fescue cant survive then how come poa does?
Jon,
Thanks for the lesson. Never once did I suggest that you recommended using fesuce on the fairways. Youd be kidding yourself if you thnk courses like Pac Dunes and Whistling Straits would be able to have as much golf as they do and be able to have good playing surfaces if they were had temps over 90 degrees and allowed carts everywhere. Kingley can survive because of their large fairways and the little amount of golf they receive. What about Chambers Bay? Currently the biggest complaint is about the greens being thin. I can promise one of the biggest reasons is because of wear and tear from foot traffic, traffic that the fescue cannot keep up with.
Any knowledgable superintendent knows not to aerify/verticut when the plant isnt growing or is under stress. If fesuce were a reasonable choice, a logical choice for a fairway grass in the sandbelt, why havent courses done it? In the US, why isnt there courses in Florida Alabama or Texas with it? Because it's not a LOGICAL, SMART decision when a better, thriving bermudagrass is available.
You mention water types? I know that RM has a brackish water source, one ,IN TIME, will have its effect on ANY turfgrass without a flush of freshwater. Its one thing to keep an open mind, it's another thing to be logical and keep a job. I'm not closed minded to your experiences what so ever. It's not the best surface, under those conditions, which those demands in that type of climate
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
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Stephen
Those actually are from late summer! Some are from last March, which I recall was shortly after a big heat wave had just ended.
Enjoying the discussion of couch fairways and Crocky greens greatly. A few questions.
1) Regarding fairways, will all the various grasses and blends discussed produce the lies for which the Sand Belt and RM are known? I am assuming that is a given and that this discussion is focused on producing healthy turf. These lies are one of the distinctive aspects of the Sand Belt and to this layman seems a miracle that such a links-like experience is available in such a setting.
Or is the implied goal ultimately about making the fairways look pretty or provide Augusta-like "uniform lies"? I am letting my bias show but I would hope the prime directive would be to ensure tight, tight lies and that if some grass must brown, go dormant or even die that is the price to pay!
2) Thought experiment: suppose someone came to this group of experts and said something along the lines of, "We want Crocky's greens back -- maybe not the exact strains but whatever it takes to go back to how those greens played. We are willing to close the club for 2-3 years, or go with temp greens, if you tell us that's what it take."
Could you do it?
Thanks to all for this neat thread!
Mark
OK so the poa is transitioning in at that time because that definitely looks like poa in those photos, especially in the 11 west photo. Although, March is early for the poa?
Regarding the fairways: I have no idea what the greens committee have stipulated they are after. Remember, most members are not the "naturalist golfers" like on this forum, many want tight uniform green fairways. Although, before that can happen knowing the irrigation system at RM like I stated earlier they have single row, outdated fairway sprinklers that don't have head to head coverage (rumors are they are looking into it). Also, an irrigation system with good coverage is no good if you don't have the water to use it. I would guess they aren't so much concerned with color or the “Augusta look” but just want a good tight lie. I always thought the fairways at RM in the summer looked great when the low spots were green and high spots were brown and whether you were on brown or green grass you still had the same tight lie. Surely members would prefer to hit off of dormant tight couch in the winter rather than that clumpy, spotty looking poa/winter grass fairways as seen in the pictures? Hence my argument to go one grass.
Regarding the greens question: WOW that’s tough, so many variables. Would the majority of members be fine bringing guests out when the greens are brown? Would brown, drought stressed, hungry greens stand up to today’s traffic? Were the greens really that brown back in Crocky’s days? Were they really that much faster (if even faster) than today? Are they even better than today’s new A’s and G’s? Like I said earlier in hindsight the greens should have never been touched period. I think now that you have disturbed that original sand that had been treated for years with the old pesticides, so long as poa still surrounds the greens you can’t keep it out. The old Suttons is a tenius bent meaning it grows erect like the tall fescue in your front lawn, so it doesn’t have the same ability to choke out poa or get as tight as these new creeping bents. So, I guess I didn’t really answer your question, that’s a tough one. I wouldn’t want to be in the position to answer that infront of a committee and have my job on the line for it that’s for sure. ;D
To be honest my answer would no, we can't get back the old "Crocky"greens. Although, terminate the two grass fairway system, eliminate the poa surrounds, suck it up and re-grass the greens to a new maybe A1/A4 mix and we will have some awesome greens. IMO the new suttons have been a failure.
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Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
Cause it gets over 100 degrees during their summer months andfescue fairways just wouldnt make it.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Why don't they go for wall to wall fescue?
Anthony hit the nail on the head.
Anthony, Steven,
I brought a wall to wall fescue course through two summers of 40°C+ with no problems so I know it will take the heat even if it does go quite brown in the afternoon. The only thing I can think of is it is too humid but my recolection of my time spent on the Melbourne area is not that it was humid.
ps. the course remained poa free as well
Jon,
One of your courses that you were at that was wall to wall fescue was in Leukerbad, Switzerland where the water temp can be 40 degrees C. THe highest average temp in the entire country is 12c...much different that Australia...
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Another point to make about these greens is the only information available regarding Suttons maintenance is what has been done at Royal Melbourne from day one. Remember, the new Suttons greens aren't "exactly" the same as the old. When they took samples from the old greens back to the lab to propagate a hand full of the old bents wouldn't set seed.
That's fascinating, and would explain why the New Suttons definitely doesn't play like the old Suttons Mix.
What I can tell you is contrary to belief Jim keep the greens very lean and underwatered, I know because I sprayed them and was a part of watering them for a long time.
Remember, back in the Crockford years I'm sure there wasn't near the traffic as today and if you could go back in time I would love to see just how fast those greens really were compared to today??? 9' on the stimp may have been really fast to the members back then? There was nothing to truly measure the speeds back then and now all we have are stories and rumors that the greens were faster 50 years ago than they are today.
I can't contest your personal watering experience, and it would be no surprise to learn that greens considered very fast 50 years ago would not be considered fast by today's standards.
That said, look at the colour of the greens in the photos above. Like most contemporaneous pics (taken at any time of the year), they all show lush greens. Many old photos show brownish or straw-coloured greens. And remember, the greens were fast enough, exactly 50 years ago, during the 1959 Canada Cup (World Cup) for both Sam Snead and Cory Middlecoff to putt off the surface of 6W and into the front bunker.
Peter Thomson and Ken Nagle won that event by a 10-stroke margin: they had the course-craft to play RM masterfully. When Thomson played RM, he kept his ball below the pin even if that meant leaving his approach off the green. Better a long chip than a downhill putt on a hole like 6 West.
For those of you who don’t know RM well, I wish I could show you an old TV clip, dating back almost 30 years. In a 5 minute segment of World of Sport, club pro Bruce Green demonstrated how to putt the green of 6 West. His putt was almost the full width of the green, going from right to left. He must have aimed 40 degrees away from the pin, and after a rounded arc (almost semi-circle) his ball finished beside the pin. Goodness knows how many takes were needed. Last weekend I faced the same putt, and the borrow was a metre, tops. I think that the change is partly the difference between the old and new Suttons mixes, and partly that the greens get too much water. However you explain the change, the courses play very differently with benign greens.
I understood that the old Suttons Mix was a blend of many bent varieties, both brown tops and creeping bents. It was supposed to be such a special combination because it survived on low nitrogen applications, maintained density through winter, was wear resistant and, of course, provided true and fast surfaces.
Stephen's spot on to point out that the courses face much more wear now than in the Crockford era. Between the two courses, 40,000 rounds are played per year. On weekdays back in the 1980s, you hardly saw another sole. There would have been far fewer rounds played decades earlier (smaller membership). So it is astute to question whether, if the greens were still kept Crockford-dry, they would stand up to the traffic.
Thought experiment: suppose someone came to this group of experts and said something along the lines of, "We want Crocky's greens back -- maybe not the exact strains but whatever it takes to go back to how those greens played. We are willing to close the club for 2-3 years, or go with temp greens, if you tell us that's what it take."
Could you do it?
YES. I think it would be reasonable to presume that large sections of the membership weep over what has happened. The club has tolerantly gone through 3 green replacement programs in the last 20 years:
- at least 15 greens replaced in the Penncross experiment
- all greens replaced in the New Suttons experiment
- was it 18 greens damaged in the poisoning incident? Some of those greens were killed & had to be fully returfed
Plus, there have been green surrounds, tees and fairways dug up, not to mention the peculiar goings on involved with the Hawtree experiment...
If it only took one more go with the greens to get things right, many would be rejoicing - that would be dignified rejoicing, mind you.
(They wouldn't have to close the courses - the previous green replacement programs have staggered the work over time.)
Stephen,
Thanks for so many interesting comments, best of all your account of when the New Suttons greens went in. BTW the 5th turf in that trial was another creeping bent, SR-1020.
Going back to the question of nasty chemicals, I gather that fungicides, worm treatments etc were applied in the Crockford era, as well as arsenate of lead. Is it only the arsenate that you suspect to have had an effect on poa suppression?
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Crocky's excellent book "The Complete Golf Course Turf and Design" has a chapter on Poa control - no mention of arsenate chemicals that I could see.
With turfseed blends and mixes, my understanding that a blend was defined as having different varieties of the same turf species, so a blend of creeping bentgrasses. A mix has different species of turgrasses in it, such as a mix of fescue and ryes. My understanding was that the original Suttons Mix contained various fescues in addition to a variety of bentgrasses. German bent was one that was used at the time and could have been in the Suttons Mix.
Tony Muldoon is researching Suttons and he would be a good person to ask about their greens mix.
Just to show how the course looked nearly 50 years ago - here's a photo of 18W from 1960 - very dry looking fairways but the green looks green!
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/18Wgreen1960.jpg)
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Neil,
I'm sure I don't have to tell you that the fairway irrigation wasn't installed until the mid to late 80's along with the 440,000 gallon dam up on 7 west hill. The photo above was obviously taken in the summer, although you’re right, look at how green the green is? Kind of looks like the photos of 17w & 11w above :o I know Arsenic based chemicals were used because I know the guys who put them out, it's also common knowledge at the club and common practice on golf courses back then, it was basically the only good pesticide they had.
As far as the Suttons needing minimal N inputs, Jim knows this (maybe better than anyone), trust me he isn't putting out anymore fert than he ABSOLOUTLY needs. Jim's annual N inputs were frequently below 1.5kg/year. I have never heard and I doubt there is any record on how much N Crocky was putting out, although, I bet it's not much less. I don't have to tell you that Suttons wasn't a variety of bent, it was the seed company name and this mix was their greens mix at the time, I did have a rough list of the grasses at one point.
Warwick,
Who’s to say if Crocky didn't have a nice new Toro irrigation system that he wouldn't have used it? :D When you mention Suttons maintained density through the winter, yeah for grasses back then it did, not compared to the creeping bents now, no way. In regards to the membership weeping about what has happened lately I don't blame them, I'm not even a member and I'm pissed because I love the place. Like I said, the greens should never have been touched (take a leaf from the Old Courses book).
Hawtree, I'll leave that alone also ??? It will be interesting to see if Richard has any say on Hawtree?
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, just because a hand full of the bents didn't set seed doesn't solely explain why the new greens aren't as good as the old. The old had many many years to adapt to their situation which is obviously something you can't purchase and is invaluable, hence the disappoint at ripping up the old greens. Arsenate of lead isn't the only factor for poa suppression although I would put it and low pH (something that I think has crept up over the years) at the top of the list. Trust me guys like Jim Porter, Graeme Grant, Richard Forsyth and before he died Claude Crockford talk all the time, they all know what each other is doing. They all trade ideas about fertilizing and watering practices. If the greens could be playable and survive with a handful of N and 2 mins of water/week in the summer then the Sup would do it, the truth is the grass won't survive.
SR-1020 your right! Also the Penncross which was developed in the 50's was only chosen becuase it was basically the only bent available at the time (80's), and it was on all 18 composite greens and half of the main practice green.
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Jon,
Thanks for the lesson. Never once did I suggest that you recommended using fesuce on the fairways. Youd be kidding yourself if you thnk courses like Pac Dunes and Whistling Straits would be able to have as much golf as they do and be able to have good playing surfaces. Kingley can survive because of their large fairways and the little amount of golf they receive. What about Chambers Bay? Currently the biggest complaint is about the greens being thin. I can promise one of the biggest reasons is because of wear and tear from foot traffic, traffic that the fescue cannot keep up with.
Any knowledgable superintendent knows not to aerify/verticut when the plant isnt growing or is under stress. If fesuce were a reasonable choice, a logical choice for a fairway grass in the sandbelt, why havent courses done it? In the US, why isnt there courses in Florida Alabama or Texas with it? Because it's not a LOGICAL, SMART decision when a better, thriving bermudagrass is available.
You mention water types? I know that RM has a brackish water source, one ,IN TIME, will have its effect on ANY turfgrass without a flush of freshwater. Its one thing to keep an open mind, it's another thing to be logical and keep a job. I'm not closed minded to your experiences what so ever. It's not the best surface, under those conditions, which those demands in that type of climate
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Tony,
Are you saying that the playing surfaces at Pacific Dunes are not fescue based or are you saying that they are fescue based but not very good? From your statement it is not clear to me. I would also point out that anyone who knows his stuff about fescue will also know that it doesn't have as tight knitt a sward as bent. That this is seen as negative in the USA is not suprising as there are, to my knowledge there are not that many fescue courses and so the player does not have a comparison.
There are very few in the USA with a successful working knowledge (though many who think they know it theoretically) of this area of greenkeeping. I know very little about warm season grasses and would never presume to make the sort of wide ranging statements about them unlike yourself and fescue.
If fescue can't take the traffic how does it survive on courses such as TOC which sees a lot of traffic?
I am sure that you are very knowledgable about your field of work. I did ask you about your experience with fescue and it is a shame you have chosen to not answer this question. I can only asume that you feel the answer will undermine your statements of opinion.
The course you refer too is the one I also meant. It is Leuk Golf Club and not Leukerbad. The water in Leukerbad is a thermal spring which is why you get you 40°C but you are incorrect if you assume this is used to irrigate the golf course over 5 miles away. As to your statement about Switzerlands average temperature, it is somewhat ignorant. It is poor form to take generalisms about something and use them to try and back up a flawed argument. Switzerland is a country of massive contrasts with some places rarely getting above freezing and others rarely dropping down to that. Valais, where Leuk is has mediterranean climate mean it is hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It is also very dry all year round. It would be like me using data from Alaska to back up an argument as to why bermuda won't work in Florida.
Leuk, due to the warm wind and clear skys has a summer were the temperature is over the 35°C mark most days and often over the 40°C. Is Melbourne really all that different? I don't know. I would be really interested in learning what you do know rather than what you think. I am not saying that fescue would be the best grass but neither do you say why couch is the best choice. Rather you choose to rubbish fescue using statements and arguments that are incorrect.
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Great thread.
Stephen's comment about Sutton's being more like a tall fescue is correct. I can still remember my first round at RM about 30 years ago and repairing a divot and noticing how the grass "stood up" rather than crept. It's always hard to compare speed but before the greens were changed they could get pretty quick, even by today's standards. Perhaps time just makes everything better but the quality of the greens seems to have gone backwards a fair bit over the last 10 years.
The first tournament I attended was at RM sometime in late 70's. I came thru the gate and wandered up the path to stand behind the 6th West green. Can't remember who the player was but he had a 6ft putt, lipped out on the high side and it rolled off the green. They were VERY quick that day.
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Doesn't it look great having that green ringed by tea trees (see Neil's last post - photo of 18 West in 1960). I understand the back of 2 West's green was like that prior to the mounds being constructed there.
Tony Muldoon's research sounds very interesting.
Vern Morcom wrote a newspaper article (for The Herald) in 1938, about turfing golf courses in Melbourne/Victoria. He concluded in that article:
- "After careful study of the sandy type of soil, I have come to the conclusion that the very best fairways may be obtained by the use of Cyondon Dactylon and Poa Annua, one to be at its best in summer, the other in winter... This conclusion has been forced on me after trying a great number of grasses in combination with Couch." Other grasses he'd tried included fescues and ryes.
- "I would not be in favour of constantly watering fairways composed of the two grasses I suggest... However, there is no reason why couch should not benefit by water during hot dry spells in summer." :o
- In the article he also anticipated the growing practice of regular watering with reticulation systems (yet thought this would be disadvantageous for couch-poa fairways on sandy soil).
[Vern was Kingston Heath's Super from 1928-67, and was a prolific course designer/consultant. He was trained by his father, Mick Morcom (who constructed RM's courses & was RM's Super 1905-35). Mick also trained Claude Crockford, his own successor. Vern worked closely with his father, and his thought's in this article, not surprisingly, coincide with basics elements of Crockford's management of RM. (I'm sure Stephen & Neil know these bio's, and Neil can probably guess where I found Vern's article.)]
It doesn't make sense to ignore modern advances (eg new turf strains; academic research programs; irrigation systems if judiciously used...) but the club got into trouble when it abandoned the basics under which its' courses had long thrived.
It would be nice to see an area set up and managed using the basic old techniques, and examining whether some of the problems of the last generation would simply resolve themselves. There are a couple of ready made practice holes where this could be easily done.
Stephen,
- I'm open-minded regarding the deficient performance of the New Suttons turf (ie possible causes) and your insights are appreciated.
- How close did you go to "the edge" in watering the greens: were there times when you guys accidentally went too far (too dry) and learned from those mistakes, or might you have always tried to leave a reasonable safety margin? And did you read Paul Daley's "crunch, crunch" anecdote in the The World's Greatest Course? Royal Melbourne Composite discussion, and the subsequent posts? Mike Clayton has written essentially the same thing, and I'm trying to work out how to reconcile so many things I've read like that with your comments. (They weren't just tournament conditions being refered to.)
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As others have said - Great thread.
It's been said that the greens at RM have deteriorated over the last 10 years. Various comments have been made on turf health, poa levels, and green speed, as well as watering.
One observation I have made consistently, is that the greens have been softer than I remember from years by, and softer than many neighbouring courses, where greens are better presented.
I have been of the opinion through the last few years that RMs greens have been overwatered and that this has been a significant factor behind the poa levels.
Am I looking at it to simplistically? Is it possible that a green is watered sparingly yet still soft?
MM
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Matthew
better minds than mine can comment, but the more frequent use of aeration can obviously soften a green. It also enables oxygen to get to the roots which is a good thing, especially if compaction is a concern.
James B
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Matthew
better minds than mine can comment, but the more frequent use of aeration can obviously soften a green. It also enables oxygen to get to the roots which is a good thing, especially if compaction is a concern.
James B
But, if they are filling the holes with sand everytime, the green will indeed get firmer in time....
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I have never played a true members course in such manicured condition as Metro, how they manage to keep the course in such condition with so many members amazed me.
I can only compare it with Valderama for conditioning and they have a couple of hundred largely absent members and a handful of visitor tee times a day.
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Mark.
Metro place an importance on being the best conditioned course in Melbourne.
The santa- ana couch is firm and almost impossible to take a decent divot out of - and I am sure the no divots thing adds to the look of 'perfection'
Having said that the fairways at any number of Melbourne courses are within 5% of the Metro quality because they are using exactly the same grass.
The greens have been significantly improved for week to week play over the last 5 years and that has been Richard's biggest success since he restored all the green edges back to the bunkers in the late 90s.
I played the Volvo Masters at Valderamma several times in the early nineties - and I have never putted on worse greens. The spike marks were extraordinary. Literally every step produced a new set. I assume they are better now but as Claude Crockford used to say 'if the greens are no good the course is no good'.
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<snip>......but as Claude Crockford used to say 'if the greens are no good the course is no good'.
Mike
Interesting would you say as to how RM has retained it's #1 status - given it's reported "green issues" over the past few years ?
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Kevin.
He was referring to the condition of the course - not the design. i.e if the greens are poorly conditioned the course is poorly conditioned.
You can have great design with less than perfect greens - and still be ranked as the best course- as RM has proved over many years.
I played Kingston Heath last week and the greens there were the best I have ever seen on any course for a non-tournament week. And it would be fair to say they are qute excited about Tiger coming.
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Mike
I understand what you're saying but have RM's greens played as they were designed too over the past few years ?
A lot of sources have said otherwise and it's dissappointing as they form an integral part of the layout eg: shots into 5 and 6 "plugging" instead of "bouncing" etc.
When RM is "firm" and "fast" it's at it's best is it not ?
In my past few visits to both KH and RM the formers greens have clearly been superior.
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Kevin.
Having played both RM and KH in the last few days it is true that the greens at KH are more demanding of well placed drives because they are firmer. That will be the most important part of Richard's job.
I have played RM when it is unbelievably firm and fast but there have always been long periods over decades when the greens were nothing like they were in tournaments.
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Matthew
better minds than mine can comment, but the more frequent use of aeration can obviously soften a green. It also enables oxygen to get to the roots which is a good thing, especially if compaction is a concern.
James B
Matthew
I should have also mentioned another obvious candidate for greens feeling softer - thatch. Again, I don't know how much of an issue thatch is at RM (given the poa ingress, I expect more than it was) but thatch and aeration are two issues (apart from watering) that can make greens feel softer underfoot. These issues apply equally to the approaches to the greens.
James B
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Mike,
Are Metro's fairways pure Santa-Ana, or are they oversown with Wintergreen couch? I gather that Richard Forsyth used and/or trialed Wintergreen earlier this decade, but know little more than that.
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Warwick.
I understand they did use some wintergreen early on but to my untrained there is no way of telling where.
The fairways all look exactly the same to me - and they certainly all play the same.
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Mike/Warwick
I understand that Metro trialled wintergreen originally, but that they preferred santa ana in subsequent trials, and that some (?all) wintergreen has been replaced by santa ana.
However, I am going on heresay here, not first-hand knowledge.
Given the value Metro ascribe to conditioning, I can believe that they would replace wintergreen with santa ana.
James B
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Mike,
A few questions. Were the original Suttons Mix greens at RM "fast" in terms of todays speeds? Not just in tournament condition but over a fair chunk of the year?
Exactly how bad would the greens and fairways need to have been before they would cancel out the architecture and drop RM from Number 1? A lot worse than they were 3 or 4 months ago or just a bit?
Lastly is it just me or are the changes to 4W and 17E absolutely disgraceful? Surely they will have to "fix" the changes as they have created more safety issues then there were supposed to resolve and made a mess of two great golf holes.
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Brian.
Bobby Jones once said something like ' there is golf and then there is championship golf and the two don't bear much relationship to each other.'
I think you can say the same about the greens at RM.
I watched the 1972 World Cup and the 1974 Chrysler Classic. There greens were at their most freared then and the course really cemented its reputation in those events.
I saw Bob Charles knock a downhill six footer clean off the green at 6W and you know he didn't yip it.
Lee Trevino shot about 10 over par and finished 3rd in the Chrysler and the WC scores were high.
I started playing pro events there in 1981 and played the Heineken there in 2004.
The old Suttons greens were really hard and fast - I would guess in excess of 13 on the stimpmeter.
The new greens whilst a good tournament surface have unquestionably lost their fearsome look of the 70s and 80s when you were ALWAYS aware you could three putt from anywhere - even 3 feet if you hit a lip and spun it out and down a hill.
I have played a decent amount there over the years and have never seen the greens like they are during the week of a tournament. My guess is they are not within three feet of the championship speed - and that is the relationship with the Jones quote.
I played there on the weekend. The fairways were better than decent and you can't generalize about the greens because there are in such a varying state of repair - or disrepair.
For me it will be number 1 because of the number of world-class holes - a number unmatched in the country although I think Barnbougle is close and Lost Farm might be even closer.
If one course is going to knock RM from the premier place on any list it is Lost Farm.
I will leave the last question alone - but I do wonder why the left option for short hitters is gone.
As a general point about 17 I would say there is nothing you can put on the ground - mounds,bunkers etc. that will stop a strong kid with the club open and on the inside from hitting a massive block and, in the case of 17, flying it onto the road.
I think we proved that at the 2nd and 3rd at Victoria when we took out all the low growing scrub and rebunkered the holes to make them look good - and play properly - again.
All the stuff supposed to stop balls flying over the fence is gone and no more - or less - balls are going over the fence.
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I have been of the opinion through the last few years that RMs greens have been overwatered and that this has been a significant factor behind the poa levels.
Mathew,
Jim managed the old Suttons and Penncross for 10 years poa free and firm/fast before they decided to re-grass. Do you honestly think that given his years of experience, support team of local Sups etc, that he has simply been over watering/fertilizing and this has caused the poa infestation?? Come on, give these guys some credit.. Remember, the poa invaded immediately after the "new suttons" were grown in, not in low spots, not in high spots,not in thin spots but even all over the greens...
better minds than mine can comment, but the more frequent use of aeration can obviously soften a green. It also enables oxygen to get to the roots which is a good thing, especially if compaction is a concern.
James B
James,
They have been aerifying the greens the same way for over 20 years. Frequent aerification will only temporarily soften the green due to the punching. Once the holes are filled with sand and the green recovers it firms up again. If you don't aerate enough the thatch will build up and you'll have cheese cakes to putt on instead of greens.. You must aerate to ensure firm greens (and obvioulsy to get the gas exchange to roots etc...)
I have played RM when it is unbelievably firm and fast but there have always been long periods over decades when the greens were nothing like they were in tournaments.
Mike,
Let’s not forget they were re-building 6 greens in the spring and 6 in the fall beginning after the 98 Presidents Cup. Over the years many greens have been at different stages of maturity during the grow in's. Again the important word being maturity, which is why the old greens were so good.
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Another point that should be made regarding the poa is the quality of water in recent years.
In the past Royal Melbourne would pump water from several bores to the dam on 7 west and shandy the water with purchased city/mains water. Victoria for years had been tapped into a great aquifer across the road, something the RM guys were always jealous of :). In recent years these bores have become very low and possibly even dried up now? When the bores run low the sodium bicarbonate levels increase. When you water turf with sodium levels higher than desired you raise the pH of the sand. RM has always been notorious for low pH levels in their greens. Low pH levels in your greens are an integral part of keeping poa a bay in bent grass, bent can withstand low pH quite well were as poa prefers high pH levels.
The club and Richard will be faced with the following question if they haven't already,
Go with the "new Suttons" and live with poa, try to make them really good bent/poa greens or consider re-grassing again?
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FYI any local sandbelt Sups, greenskeepers, ex RM employees feel free to chime in anytime..
I'm all alone taking grenades in the trenches here! :D
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Stephen,
I, and I think most of the Melbourne based posters, appreciate both your insight and candour so I hope you aren't taking grenades.
RM holds a very special place in both Melbourne and Australian golf and perhaps for that reason it gets judged harder than most. My first game their many years ago was a revelation, I had simply never seen a course that good or in such good condition. I've been fortunate enough to play there a bit since then and I've been dismayed at the condition of the greens for the last few years. They have simply not been to the standard I'd expect at RM and probably not to a standard that most of the better clubs routinely achieve. Your comments about the changes caste a bit of light on why.
One thing I would be interested to hear is your opinion of the changes to 6, 7, 8, 15 and 17 East and 4 West.
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Stephen,
Thanks for the replies. While I didn't think that overwatering was the sole cause of the poa problems, your words indeed show that I am likely to have looked at things a little too simply. They make me understand that, and the softness, a little more.
I have tried to keep an open mind on the condition of RM through the last 10 years of change, and many intelligent chaps like yourself have lauded Jim and his abilities.
Thanks for adding such depth to this discussion; as Brian says, we appreciate it greatly. Not often someone with this level of enthusiasm and knowledge is a keystroke away, and so keen to share their knowledge.
MM
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Green Speeds
Sometimes the green speeds are displayed on a notice-board. They were reported there as stimping between 10 and 11 (consistently) throughout December & January. Obviously there's a lot of hole-to-hole variation at the moment. The current target is 11, week-in, week-out.
To give context to those reported readings, I haven't seen any of the greens anywhere near treacherous this summer.
Friendly Grenades
Today I found an old interview of Jim Porter - from a 2002 issue of Golf & Sports Turf Australia magazine (essential reading) - in which he said of RM's traditional greens (old Suttons Mix): “…They putted well, were dense and resisted poa invasion - all benefits that Penn Cross did not have.” The relevant inference is that poa infiltration of the greens was a problem that came with the first green resurfacing program (1988-92) ie when Penncross was introduced. Maybe the problem got a lot worse with the second resurfacing program (mainly 1999-2003) as Stephen passionately believes.
It might well be pure coincidence, but the irrigation system went in around the time that the first resurfacing program got under way.
There has definitely been a build up of minerals in the greens, as a result of applying bore water. The PH theory is interesting. The new storm-water mining arrangements might help with this one, by removing the need to apply diluted bore water to the greens.
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Stephen,
I, and I think most of the Melbourne based posters, appreciate both your insight and candour so I hope you aren't taking grenades.
Brian
Who says you have to come from Melbourne to appreciate the discussions ? ;D
Stephen
As Brian correctly points out - RM does hold a special place among the top echelon of Australia golf and will always be judged accordingly. Appreciate that various changes are being made and hopefully the course will ultimately be better for it - thanks for the posts they are very insightful.
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One thing I would be interested to hear is your opinion of the changes to 6, 7, 8, 15 and 17 East and 4 West.
My thoughts have been well documented on the changes, IMO nothing should have changed in the name of safety to houses or play. The course was there first, it raises the value of the homes, you knew the course was in your backyard when you purchased the house, if you don't like balls in your backyard or on your roof then move or get over it! Also I don't think the current changes will even soften the problem?
Doesn't it look great having that green ringed by tea trees (see Neil's last post - photo of 18 West in 1960). I understand the back of 2 West's green was like that prior to the mounds being constructed there.
I think you'll find there was a row of large Cypress trees along the back of 2 west green and 3 west tees, similar to the trees that border the property.
I like the tee tree although I would be intersted to see it taken out in places and the course opened up a little. Neil posted a photo in another RM thread taken not long after the course opened. It was taken from the clubhouse area looking across,2w,3w,5w,6w and over to 2e and Dr.Green's house.
Obviously we don't want to open up the course and expose houses although how do you think the course would look if some of these internal vistas were opened up once again?
Imagine the tee tree removed across 1w,2w,3w,4,w,5w,6w, even around the 11w,12w, 17w, area?
Neil could answer this, Do you think the tee tree has taken over a little? Do you think the course was intended to be a little more open?
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Stephen,
I think that the changes to 4W and 17E, besides making a mess of two great holes, have actually created more safety issues than they have "fixed". From the 17th tee you now aim more towards the road. The 4th tee is within easy reach, and playing your 2nd shot straight at the 2nd tee is sure to make life interesting. Oh and the long grass on the left of the drive bunkers on 4W is a great idea. Now rather than having people walk up and hit their ball if they are left of the bunkers you'll have most of the group stomping around in the long grass looking for the ball they can't find. 4 targets rather than one and a lot longer in the target area. It's much safer.
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Stephen,
I think that the changes to 4W and 17E, besides making a mess of two great holes, have actually created more safety issues than they have "fixed". From the 17th tee you now aim more towards the road. The 4th tee is within easy reach, and playing your 2nd shot straight at the 2nd tee is sure to make life interesting. Oh and the long grass on the left of the drive bunkers on 4W is a great idea. Now rather than having people walk up and hit their ball if they are left of the bunkers you'll have most of the group stomping around in the long grass looking for the ball they can't find. 4 targets rather than one and a lot longer in the target area. It's much safer.
I think most people are scratching their heads with these changes. Although, wasn't 4w changed recently to make it easier for the seniors to get over the bunkers? Or bail out to the right rather than the left?
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I hadn't really thought of the impact of traffic on a golf course, beyond maintenance, until this thread. The so-called safety issues go away if play goes down, yes?
And the playability changes on 4W probably come from this source, too. Wouldn't the aging of the population explain a lot of the rise in rounds?
(A second and somewhat related factor is the growing wealth of Melburnians!)
Mark
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I think you'll find there was a row of large Cypress trees along the back of 2 west green and 3 west tees, similar to the trees that border the property.
Interesting. There was a single, huge tree at the left rear of that green (ie near the 3rd tee) that was removed around the end of the 1970s. Maybe that was the last survivor of the row you mention.
I like the tee tree although I would be intersted to see it taken out in places and the course opened up a little... Obviously we don't want to open up the course and expose houses although how do you think the course would look if some of these internal vistas were opened up once again?
Neil could answer this, Do you think the tee tree has taken over a little? Do you think the course was intended to be a little more open?
Extremely interesting. We all take the tea tree for granted because that's all we've ever known. Don't know if I'd like it more or less that way. Makes you think how gutsy it was for Oakmont to do that clear felling.
Neil, there's a growing chorus who would be very interested in your comments.