Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Kirk on March 11, 2009, 01:39:59 PM
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I heard from a friend that Golfweek's new top 100 lists are out this week. All I know is the modern top 10 so far:
1. Sand Hills
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Whistling Straits
4. Pete Dye Golf Club
5. Bandon Dunes
6. Friar's Head
7. Sebonack
8. Ballyneal
9. The Golf Club
10. Shadow Creek
Sebonack ahead of Ballyneal? I can't take it any longer!
Somebody please post the lists soon. This is my favorite discussion of the year, since it gives us a chance to compare and discuss many courses. It also prevents me from making bold, definitive predictions about future stock market performance.
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On my wish list, I hope Stone Eagle sneaks into the top 100, but I'm doubtful. I want Witch Hollow to stay in the top 100. I'd like to see Rock Creek break top 60 or so, and wonder where Mountaintop or Cornerstone will debut.
Make your predictions quick; I think the lists will be on here in short order.
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You mean to tell me that Matt Ward's prediction that Tetherow would pass Bandon Dunes didn't come true?
;)
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I wonder if one of the new classic restorations will appear on the list like Cal Club or Sleepy Hollow?
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I'd like to see upward mobility for Kingsley. It is a better course than whistling straits or bandon dunes in my opinion.
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New "Best of" List, Rearranging the Deck Chairs on the "Titanic" and Watching Paint Dry.
Compare and Contrast.
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Well I already got my most important prediction wrong... which was that the guys from GW would finally grow a pair, quit wussing out behind this "classical/modern" distinction and make some truly tough choices. I guess I am too wildly optomistic.
;D ;D
TH
note to newbies and others: this is tongue in cheek! It's just the required statement each time this comes out, part of the long running good-natured battle between those on here who are GW panelists (many) and those who are Golf Digest (fewer, including me).
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I'd like to see upward mobility for Kingsley. It is a better course than whistling straits or bandon dunes in my opinion.
All I can say is, "WOW".
I'm going to make it to Kingsley this summer. It looks awesome, but "better than Bandon Dunes"? WOW.
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Erin Hills is #5...on the list of public courses in Wisconsin.
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Just one man's opinion Terry!
The greens are the big difference maker in my opinion.
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Candidly, Bandon Dunes is NOT a better course than Kingsley, in my mind. I don't doubt the qualities of BD but it's not a top ten layout from the ones I have played in the States.
Not even close -- Bandon benefits from all the exposure. I can only hope that the DeVries layout at Greywalls at Marquette GC gets serious consideration for a top 100 placement.
One other comment -- Shadow Creek top ten !
Surely they jest.
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New "Best of" List, Rearranging the Deck Chairs on the "Titanic" and Watching Paint Dry.
Compare and Contrast.
"Nothing satisfies you [reporters]... everybody asks for personnel changes, so the White House has personnel changes. And then you write, 'oh, they're just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic .' First of all, that is a terrible metaphor. This administration is not sinking, this administration is soaring! If anything, they are rearranging the deck chairs on the Hindenburg."
-Stephen Colbert
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Not even close -- Bandon benefits from all the exposure
Note this is one man's opinion. Another (this man's) is that Bandon SUFFERS from being so close to the other greats that it is. Matt and I have debated this ad nauseam previously. Just do consider both sides, if you care to.
;D
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Candidly, Bandon Dunes is NOT a better course than Kingsley, in my mind. I don't doubt the qualities of BD but it's not a top ten layout from the ones I have played in the States.
Not even close -- Bandon benefits from all the exposure. I can only hope that the DeVries layout at Greywalls at Marquette GC gets serious consideration for a top 100 placement.
One other comment -- Shadow Creek top ten !
Surely they jest.
I haven't played nearly so many of the greats as most of you fellas, but I would personally place Ballyneal and Bandon Trails ahead of Bandon Dunes.
IMHO, Ballyneal will always suffer in the rankings because of its unusual and what many might consider excessive green contours, but I prefer a bit of excess to the overly tame surfaces of Bandon Dunes. Likewise, the weak holes on Trails far outshine the weak holes on Dunes.
That being said, Bandon Dunes does contain a handful of the greatest holes in North America. It deserves to be ranked up there somewhere, certainly top 50 I would think.
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Huck:
The issue I have with BD is that it's not top ten modern -- don't know if you have played Kingsley but it's chock full of design elements that far surpass the original 18 at BD.
I'm not suggesting BD is not a top 100 modern but it benefits from massive exposure the facility has garnered. Pac Dunes is the real deal there.
Kyle:
I can't speak to what you have played but if you see BD as a top 50 modern then so be it. I see it as being more towards the rear of any top 50 listing then the front.
One other thing -- Ballyneal is indeed a very special place.
Final item - BT is especially weak in the middle third of the layout -- gets a huge amount of brownie points because of the good will generated from the association to Coore & Crenshaw. For my money, Black Mesa is a better overall layout but gets far less attention because of the pedigree of the person who designed it.
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Huck:
The issue I have with BD is that it's not top ten modern -- don't know if you have played Kingsley but it's chock full of design elements that far surpass the original 18 at BD.
I'm not suggesting BD is not a top 100 modern but it benefits from massive exposure the facility has garnered. Pac Dunes is the real deal there.
Excellent. Your opinions about the golf courses are fine. Your statement that Bandon benefits from the exposure is all I was trying to propose a counterpoint to.
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For my money, Black Mesa is a better overall layout but gets far less attention because of the pedigree of the person who designed it.
OK folks, by my count, it took Ward all of 1 hour and 10 minutes to mention Black Mesa on a "Best of..." thread. Who had 1'10" in the pool? Anyone? Huck, I figured you for 30 minutes, tops, so you lose. Anyone else?
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For my money, Black Mesa is a better overall layout but gets far less attention because of the pedigree of the person who designed it.
OK folks, by my count, it took Ward all of 1 hour and 10 minutes to mention Black Mesa on a "Best of..." thread. Who had 1'10" in the pool? Anyone? Huck, I figured you for 30 minutes, tops, so you lose. Anyone else?
Dammit. His staying power screws me this time. I shall predict more carefully in the future.
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I was amazed he mentioned BM that soon. So, I didn't win the pool.
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I'm not sure when the current issue normally hits mailboxes and newsstands, or when GW will update the list on its website, but if you're desperate enough you can view the new lists in their entirety by buying the digital version of the current issue (only $1.99) from their website.
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Kyle:
I can't speak to what you have played but if you see BD as a top 50 modern then so be it. I see it as being more towards the rear of any top 50 listing then the front.
One other thing -- Ballyneal is indeed a very special place.
Final item - BT is especially weak in the middle third of the layout -- gets a huge amount of brownie points because of the good will generated from the association to Coore & Crenshaw. For my money, Black Mesa is a better overall layout but gets far less attention because of the pedigree of the person who designed it.
Black Mesa is very good. From tee to green it may be a better course than Bandon Trails in an 18-hole "matchplay."
However, I think the hazards and recovery shots, particulalry around the greens are more compelling at BT. BT also gets brownie points for being relatively walkable.
I'd certainly give you Black Mesa over Spyglass.
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Kyle:
I hear what you say -- but I'll rate ANY aspect of BM over BD. You can start with a straight match play comparison -- I'll be glad to break it down by hole groups (e.g. par-3's, par-4's, par-5's) or how the holes fall out when playing them in terms the overall flow/character of the land.
BM is quite walkable.
One final item -- the hazards and green complexes are also more intricate and far more stress producing for the shots you need to have within your portfolio.
You also dodged my point on BT - the middle stretch of holes is the real weak point of the course. Once you leave the short par-3 on the front until you get to the approach at the 13th the caliber of holes in that run is a good few steps behind the opening and closing ones, in my opinion.
Phil:
If you've played Black Mesa and see Bandon Dunes as the better of the two courses I'd like to hear your reasoning.
Let me point out I often mention courses that don't benefit from having "star" power architects attached to them. Kingsley is a truly marvelous course and yet gets pushed more towards the rear than the front of the line. Ditto what Mike DeVries did with Greywalls at Marquette GC. The work Ken Kavanaugh did at Vista Verde is another example of a quality design. I also think Dennis Rider deserves credit for the sheer imagination he attained at Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV.
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Matt - so you are saying the GW panelists are architect-starstruck?
The horror!
And aren't you one of them? If so, set your brethren straight!
;D
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BM is quite walkable.
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What? Compared to what real estate development course?
Admit it Matt. You take a cart so you can do 36 holes days there.
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I have not played the Pete Dye Club - is it really that good to be near the very top?
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Who am I watching paint dry with and in what state of dress?
I just checked back in and the paint is still wet and yet several esteemed analysts are debating whether it will dry and when. As for my state of dress, it's smart casual as I'm off to watch Man United play Inter Milan at the local.
Enjoy
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Matt:
I myself am in the middle of my 12-step GCA program aimed at not mentioning a certain Langford & Moreau course in Wisconsin that begins L-A-W.....
I have not played either Black Mesa or Bandon Dunes. I have hopes of playing Vista Verde sometime soon, and from what I've seen of the course via GCA threads, it looks quite good.
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Who am I watching paint dry with and in what state of dress?
I just checked back in and the paint is still wet and yet several esteemed analysts are debating whether it will dry and when. As for my state of dress, it's smart casual as I'm off to watch Man United play Inter Milan at the local.
Enjoy
Why not watch a game featuring some skill?
Roma v. Arsenal starts at the same time... NOW....
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I wonder if one of the new classic restorations will appear on the list like Cal Club or Sleepy Hollow?
Cal Club is #60 on the classic list.
The other new entry on the classic list was Sankaty Head GC at #91.
Modern debuts are Colorado GC (#23), Fallen Oak GC (55), Estancia (79), McArthur GC (81), RTJ GC (86), Greywalls (92), Spanish Oaks GC (97), GC at Ravenna (100).
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Kyle:
I hear what you say -- but I'll rate ANY aspect of BM over BD. You can start with a straight match play comparison -- I'll be glad to break it down by hole groups (e.g. par-3's, par-4's, par-5's) or how the holes fall out when playing them in terms the overall flow/character of the land.
BM is quite walkable.
One final item -- the hazards and green complexes are also more intricate and far more stress producing for the shots you need to have within your portfolio.
You also dodged my point on BT - the middle stretch of holes is the real weak point of the course. Once you leave the short par-3 on the front until you get to the approach at the 13th the caliber of holes in that run is a good few steps behind the opening and closing ones, in my opinion.
I prefer BM to BD as well, but it's a closer contest for my part.
BM is technically walkable but, even as a devout gym rat in his late 20's, I'd prefer to ride there. I played the course in very comfortable weather (early March 2006), but the summer heat would make walking a foolish proposition. Plus, you'd have a tough time keeping up the pace of play if you're paired with riders.
Regarding Trails, I actually like a few of the "middle holes" at BT, including 6, 8, and 12.
7,9,10,11 are not at the same level as other holes on BT, but they're still far better than anything around my neighborhood.
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Just one man's opinion Terry!
The greens are the big difference maker in my opinion.
I'm not arguing the point, I'm just impressed by your conviction. It inspires me to get up there and play it myself.
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A few more tidbits:
13. Old Sandwich
19. Chambers Bay
22. Bandon Trails
23. Colorado Golf Club
24. Dunes Club
26. Boston Golf Club (from 48.)
29. Monterey Peninsula CC (Shore)
Numerically, Whistling Straits has separated itself from the others. Pacific Dunes is 9.23. Whistling Straits is 8.69. Pete Dye GC is 8.30.
John
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A few more tidbits:
13. Old Sandwich
19. Chambers Bay
22. Bandon Trails
23. Colorado Golf Club
24. Dunes Club
26. Boston Golf Club (from 48.)
29. Monterey Peninsula CC (Shore)
Numerically, Whistling Straits has separated itself from the others. Pacific Dunes is 9.23. Whistling Straits is 8.69. Pete Dye GC is 8.30.
John
Wow...#24 for the Dunes Club!
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sebonack better than golf club?
Pete Dye GC better than golf club?
--or---
raters cant get on/its not a 7400 yard course????
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On my wish list, I hope Stone Eagle sneaks into the top 100, but I'm doubtful. I want Witch Hollow to stay in the top 100. I'd like to see Rock Creek break top 60 or so, and wonder where Mountaintop or Cornerstone will debut.
Make your predictions quick; I think the lists will be on here in short order.
John, I see the Pumpkin logo under your name... what is your affiliation if any with the club?
By the Witch Hollow is at #71
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Scott S:
Well put -- The Golf Club deserves better overall recognition as the best Pete Dye layout in the States.
Garland:
I've walked BM an equal number of times to the rounds I have played with a cart. BM is quite walkable and frankly is easier to walk then a place like Bethpage Black, in my opinion.
Huck:
I think there is a bit of "star" architect preference. Again, my opinion.
Phil M:
I too am a big time fane of Lawsonia Links -- wish more people would play it because I am frankly perplexed with the amount of love shown for The Straits Course at WS.
Kyle:
To use your own words -- if BM is indeed better than BT then clearly the NM layout should be rated nearer to the highest level.
The Bandon layouts get plenty of ink because of the exposure they have received. Pac Dunes does deserve the high fanfare -- the other two have simply benefited from the "in the area" vicinity, in my opinion.
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so, whos going to be nice enough and post the list? ;D
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Huck:
I think there is a bit of "star" architect preference. Again, my opinion.
I don't know one way or the other; and I got that you think there is. My question is more this: what are you gonna do about it?
;D
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Sheez,
I was thinking just about all of these courses would be stoked to be in the top 10 of a list like this. ;)
I will only add this. I've played a few of these in this top 10 and I would be more than happy....make that absolutly estatic... to get back and play any of them.
Bravo and congrats to these fine clubs/courses and best of luck to each and every one of them for 2009!!
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Yes Matt, BM is walkable. Although I haven't played Bethpage Black, I suspect most would disagree with your opinion. Tilly didn't have the cartball crutch to depend on to transport you uphill to the next tee most of the time. I suspect Tilly didn't make walkers take a cart path around the ubiquitous gullies separating tee from fairway. I suspect Kalen could get on here and use Google Earth to prove the green to tee walks at BB are much shorter than they are at BM.
Why else would we have a 20 something gym rat saying it is not a pleasant walk on this thread?
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The Golf Digest List should be coming out soon too, I think. Huck?
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Nice to see Boston Golf Club moving up...it's a superb course.
Did someone say Kingsley moved up?
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Bet you Chambers continues to move up the list - it's the Shadow Creek (meaning massive massive buzz) of this decade and it will benefit from the Am and US Open exposure.
BD continues to prove that raters DO take location and aesthetics into account - which means it does matter . . .
Arsenal win in a shoot out - AR-SAH-NAL!
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Kingsley and Chambers Bay both moved back a couple of spots.
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Why is Monterey Peninsula Shore considered a modern when Augusta is still considered a classic?
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Kyle - Like no way dude? Really. I'm surprised.
Let's get the Bandon Dunes hating in order -
Which courses currently behind BD should be ahead of it (despite a few all world holes)?
Hopefully not Shadow Creek . . .
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Why is Monterey Peninsula Shore considered a modern when Augusta is still considered a classic?
Would that be because it underwent a complete redo by Strantz with the direction the holes were played being reversed?
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CAN SOMEONE PLEASE POST THE LIST!
Also, good to see Greywalls in the top 100 finally. Well deserved!
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Modern
1. Sand Hills (1 in '08)
2. Pacific Dunes (2)
3. Whistling Straits (3)
4. Pete Dye Golf Club (5)
5. Bandon Dunes (6)
6. Friar's Head (4)
7. Sebonack (14)
8. Ballyneal (13)
9. The Golf Club ( 8 )
10. Shadow Creek (9)
11. Muirfield Village (10)
12. Kinloch (7)
13. Old Sandwich (15)
14. Honors (11)
15. Spyglass Hills (16)
16. TPC Sawgrass (12)
17. Wade Hampton (19)
18. Ocean Course at Kiawah (18)
19. Chambers Bay (17)
20. Kingsley Club (18)
21. Calusa Pines (22)
22. Bandon Trails (21)
23. Colorado Golf Club (NR)
24. Dunes Club (29)
25. Dallas National (23)
26. Boston Golf Club (48)
27. Wild Horse (25)
28. Harbour Town (33)
29. Monterey Peninsula Shore (31)
30. Desert Forest (26)
31. Castle Pines (26)
32. Arcadia Bluffs (38)
33. Pine Barrens (30)
34. Galloway National (34)
35. Bayonne (32)
36. Blackwolf Run River (36)
37. Wolf Run (24)
38. Mayacama (35)
39. Cuscowilla (39)
40. Double Eagle (37)
41. Black Diamond Ranch (40)
42. Sutton Bay (41)
43. Paa-Ko Ridge (43)
44. Black Rock (54)
45. Quail Hollow (47)
46. Karsten Creek (42)
47. Long Cove (46)
48. Forest Highlands (49)
49. The Rim (50)
50. The Preserve (52)
51. Pronghorn Fazio (44)
52. Lost Dunes (53)
53. Trump National (63)
54. Briggs Ranch (36)
55. Fallen Oak (NR)
56. Eugene CC (61)
57. Sanctuary (51)
58. Old Farm (59)
59. Butler National (74)
60. Concession (45)
61. Cassique (75)
62. Black Sheep (56)
63. Victoria National (55)
64. Atlantic (65)
65. Shoal Creek (70)
66. Kapalua Plantation (62)
67. WeKoPa Saguaro (67)
68. Hazeltine National (64)
69. Crooked Stick (77)
70. Lahontan (57)
71. Pumpkin Ridge Witch Hollow (77)
72. Stone Canyon Club (80)
73. Harvester (58)
74. Ocean Forest (66)
75. Souther Highlands (71)
76. Powder Horn (69)
77. Jupiter Hills (81)
78. Hidden Creek (87)
79. Estancia (NR)
80. Whisper Rock Upper (68)
81. McArthur (NR)
82. Forest Dunes (84
83. Sea Island Seaside (82)
84. Valhalla (96)
85. Princeville (85)
86. Robert Trent Jones (NR)
87. Quintero (78)
88. Secession (91)
89. Flint Hills National (88)
90. Links of North Dakota (79)
91. Forest Creek North (76)
92. Greywalls (NR)
93. Seven Canyons (97)
94. Black Mesa (73)
95. Hawks Ridge (60)
96. Old Tabby Links (86)
97. Spanish Oaks (NR)
98. Caledonia (100)
99. Crosswater at Sunriver (92)
100. Golf Club at Ravenna (NR)
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VERY suprised to see Kinloch at #12...It's a Top 10...
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
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I was surprised to see Black Mesa fall so far.
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No Rustic Canyon or Tobacco Road ???
What a debut for Colorado Golf Club.
Looks like almost every course C&C have built is in here (Austin Golf Club & Sugarloaf aren't I know)
Great to see Ballyneal that high!
Bandon Dunes, really, that high???
I still scratch my head about Whistling Straits getting so much love....
No Rock Creek Cattle??? Too new?
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Classic
1. Cypress Point Club (1)
2. Pine Valley (2)
3. Shinnecock Hills (3)
4. Merion (5)
5. Oakmont (6)
6. NGLA (7)
7. Pebble Beach (4)
8. Crystal Downs ( 8 )
9. Augusta National (10)
10. Prairie Dunes (9)
11. Fishers Island (12)
12. San Francisco (13)
13. Chicago (15)
14. Pinehurst #2 (11)
15. Seminole (14)
16. Winged Foot West (17)
17. Oakland Hills South (16)
18. Bethpage Black (22)
19. Garden City (19)
20. Los Angeles CC North (18)
21. Olympic Lake (20)
22. Camargo (25)
23. Country Club (21)
24. Riveria (24)
25. Southern Hills (23)
26. Wannamoisett (26)
27. Shoreacres (27)
28. Plainfield (28)
29. Pasatiempo (31)
30. Somerset Hills (29)
31. Myopia Hunt (32)
32. Maidstone Club (37)
33. Peachtree (34)
34. Winged Foot East (33)
35. Oak Hill East (30)
36. Inverness (36)
37. Quaker Ridge (35)
38. Yeamans Hall (40)
39. Baltustrol Lower (39)
40. Valley Club (41)
41. Olympia Fields North (42)
42. Baltimore CC East (38)
43. Salem CC (43)
44. Yale (44)
45. Newport (47)
46. Piping Rock (52)
47. Homestead Cascades (45)
48. Milwaukee (57)
49. Colonial (53)
50. Scioto (49)
51. East Lake (48)
52. Interlachen (51)
53. Holston Hills (54)
54. White Bear Yacht (46)
55. Medinah #3 (55)
56. Aronimink (59)
57. Cherry Hills (50)
58. Lawsonia Links (58)
59. Kittansett (61)
60. Cal Club (NR)
61. Essex CC (62)
62. Fenway (60)
63. NCR South (65)
64. Pine Needles (67)
65. Lancaster (72)
66. Franklin Hills (63)
67. Brookside CC (64)
68. Baltusrol Upper (68)
69. Huntingdon Valley (69)
70. Mountain Lake (66)
71. St Louis (74)
72. Ekwanok (82)
73. Whippoorwill CC (76)
74. Congressional Blue (70)
75. Indianwood CC Old (84)
76. Fox Chapel (73)
77. CC of Fairfield (56)
78. Minikahda Club (71)
79. Philadelphia CC Spring Mill (75)
80. Lehigh (81)
81. Taconic (89)
82. Bel Air CC (77)
83. Ridgewood (88)
84. Northland CC (87)
85. Old Town Club (86)
86. Creek Club (85)
87. Eastward Ho (80)
88. Canterbury (98)
89. Hollywood (83)
90. Skokie (78)
91. Sankaty Head (NR)
92. Rolling Green (96)
93. Brook Hollow (92)
94. Dunes Golf & Beach (94)
95. Augusta CC (95)
96. Point O Woods (93)
97. Champions Cypress Creek (90)
98. Engineers (79)
99. Beverly CC (91)
100. Sunnehanna (99)
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Wow Cassique moving up to #61.
FC-North all the way to #91??
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I was surprised to see Black Mesa fall so far.
They finally got it below the Links of ND where it belongs.
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Kyle:
To use your own words -- if BM is indeed better than BT then clearly the NM layout should be rated nearer to the highest level.
The Bandon layouts get plenty of ink because of the exposure they have received. Pac Dunes does deserve the high fanfare -- the other two have simply benefited from the "in the area" vicinity, in my opinion.
I must not be articulating my opinion clearly enough. I rate Bandon Trails above Black Mesa, primarily beacuse I think it has superior green complexes and presents more compelling recovery shots. Black Mesa may present a more consistent level of quality from tee to green (not sold on that one), but Trails still wins for me.
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There is no way that Bandon Dunes should be ranked high than Friars Head. Kidd has 3 holes that play right up to the cliff, and on all 3 of them he does the same thing, removes everything behind the green so you have trouble with the same thing. Bandon isn't even better there its neighbor Trails, let alone a better Coore course like Friars Head.
I cant believe how high Bethpage Black is now... its only like that because people are getting so hyped up about the open. The new bunkers on that course dont even come close to fitting in with the rest of the course, a sign of bad work. The course doesn't have interesting par 3's except for maybe #17, and greens aren't interesting. It is nice to see Winged Foot East getting more recognition though
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On my wish list, I hope Stone Eagle sneaks into the top 100, but I'm doubtful. I want Witch Hollow to stay in the top 100. I'd like to see Rock Creek break top 60 or so, and wonder where Mountaintop or Cornerstone will debut.
Make your predictions quick; I think the lists will be on here in short order.
John, I see the Pumpkin logo under your name... what is your affiliation if any with the club?
By the Witch Hollow is at #71
Hi Greg. I live about five miles from Pumpkin Ridge and have been a member since 1992. By the way, your name came up in a recent conversation with LCL.
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Seeing lists like this one reminds me of just how many great courses are on Long Island; indeed, four of the top 13 on these 2 lists (top 7 modern, top 6 classic) are within just 20 miles of each other.
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Biggest winners and losers according to the posted data:
Modern - Winners:
Colorado GC - 77 spots (from NR)
Fallen Oak - 45 (from NR)
Boston GC - 22
Estancia - 21 (from NR)
McArthur - 19 (from NR) I don't know anything about this course?
Butler National - 15
Cassique - 14
Modern - Losers:
Hawks Ridge - (35)
Black Mesa - (21)
Briggs Ranch - (18)
Concession - (15)
Harvester - (15)
Forest Creek North - (15)
Classic - Winners:
Cal Club - 40 (from NR)
Canterbury - 10
Ekwanok - 10
Sankaty Head - 9
Indianwood (Old) - 9 Good to see, great course
Milwaulkee - 9
Classic - Losers:
CC of Fairfield - (21)
Engineers - (19)
Skokie - (12)
White Bear Yatch - (8)
Beverly CC - (8)
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I think Yeaman's Hall at #38 is quite interesting, and would even suggest it is a GCA favorite. Tom Doak rates it a 5 in his book, and has said numerous times that a good restoration might raise the course one notch on his rating scale. But based on his commentary in the book "Too bad about the greens; fixed up, Yeaman's Hall would be terrific.", I would guess Tom would rate the course a 7.
No rating for Cornerstone, Mountaintop or Rock Creek Cattle. I would guess these are too young.
Colorado Golf Club at #23 is a surprise to me. I've only played it once, which makes it hard for me to judge. It is very difficult, and possesses plenty of "uniqueness". I would like it more if I played it a few times. It also has a great warmup area, although the wramup is a bit removed from the first tee.
I don't like Los Angeles CC (#20) ahead of Riviera (#24). Although LACC has better terrain, I feel there are 3-4 holes which are either nondescript or poorly designed. I wonder if LACC gets stealth points for not being a Fazio/Marzolf renovation.
So far, Bandon Dunes is the most controversial. As an Oregonian, Bandon Dunes has considerable nostalgic appeal, as the first of the great quartet of ocean courses in my home state. It raised the bar for me, and furthered my golf education. I believe the average resort visitor enjoys Bandon Dunes the most, though it would finish third out of three among GCA members. Since Jaeger just mentioned the three holes to the ocean, I'd like to single out #12 as an outstanding hole.
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I'll say it here first.
Old Mac will be the highest entrant to next years list. Bet the house on it.
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John - I dont know if I'd call it outstanding, its the "road hole" par 3. While it offers a cool shot, with a better background, it gets a 0 in the variety category because if you hit a good drive on #4, you played that shot... the angle of the green is even same... On top of all of that, there is another, even better version of the road hole waiting over on Old Mac, about 2 drivers and a 5-iron distance away, so now you are hitting that shot 3 times in one trip.... I loved Bandon, I just don't think its better than Friars Head.
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Mark,
Probably will have to wait two years for Old Mac to debut.
Jaeger,
No argument from me on evaluating Bandon Dunes and Friar's Head. Friar's Head is one of my favorites.
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I can't wait to see my issue -- traveling now and excited to see Greywalls made the list after finally getting enough views this last year. I hope more of those coming to the GCA gathering in June will consider going up to play this also.
Great to see Boston Golf Club move up -- it is a special place and Gil and Jim did a great job there and Rodney is an excellent super that really gets it and makes the course play the way it should. Really nice article on it recently in Links, I think.
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Mark,
is that a commentary on Old Macdonald's perceived strengths or a function of the fact that the forthcoming supply of new courses is so small?
DeVries, you dope, it didn't just make the list. It made the cover (see the Web site teaser).
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Both
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Mark,
is that a commentary on Old Macdonald's perceived strengths or a function of the fact that the forthcoming supply of new courses is so small?
DeVries, you dope, it didn't just make the list. It made the cover (see the Web site teaser).
To be honest Brad, I hadn't thought about the lack of new courses. I just thought OM was fantastic. I had that feeling about it the first time I walked it with Garret Bodington last February and it was still dirt and barely anything was worked on.
We said at the time that the scale of everything was awesome and we just had this feeling it it was a special place.
I was more convinced of it after the Restoration Cup.
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not a lot of love for the older modern courses. no Grandfather... no Atlanta Athletic.
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Is every year too often for this list? Thoughts?
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I have read that Tetherow is a better course than Bandon Dunes - I guess it should be Top 5 on the modern list ;)
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I think Yeaman's Hall at #38 is quite interesting, and would even suggest it is a GCA favorite. Tom Doak rates it a 5 in his book, and has said numerous times that a good restoration might raise the course one notch on his rating scale. But based on his commentary in the book "Too bad about the greens; fixed up, Yeaman's Hall would be terrific.", I would guess Tom would rate the course a 7.
No rating for Cornerstone, Mountaintop or Rock Creek Cattle. I would guess these are too young.
Colorado Golf Club at #23 is a surprise to me. I've only played it once, which makes it hard for me to judge. It is very difficult, and possesses plenty of "uniqueness". I would like it more if I played it a few times. It also has a great warmup area, although the wramup is a bit removed from the first tee.
I don't like Los Angeles CC (#20) ahead of Riviera (#24). Although LACC has better terrain, I feel there are 3-4 holes which are either nondescript or poorly designed. I wonder if LACC gets stealth points for not being a Fazio/Marzolf renovation.
So far, Bandon Dunes is the most controversial. As an Oregonian, Bandon Dunes has considerable nostalgic appeal, as the first of the great quartet of ocean courses in my home state. It raised the bar for me, and furthered my golf education. I believe the average resort visitor enjoys Bandon Dunes the most, though it would finish third out of three among GCA members. Since Jaeger just mentioned the three holes to the ocean, I'd like to single out #12 as an outstanding hole.
I love the place, but LA has no business ahead of Riviera with respect to the golf course. I believe Golf Digest has a far greater spread. The ongoing restoration at LA cannot hurt, and I would expect it to be rated further ahead of Riviera on its completion.
One has to wonder what role the "experience" plays in the mind of the rater.....if that is a defined criteria or simply has only a psychological impact.
I see Bel Air on the list so maybe answered my own question. Because that sure as hell is not a classic golf course. They should remove it from the list, and start a new list with a different header.
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My new company motto:
Top ten or bust!
:D
(And hopefully not both, as was the case at St. Andrews Beach.)
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Hey Brad, nice job on the list once again. One of my favorite features each year.
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Is Muirfield Village really a Top 20 modern course.
I have only read about it in the WAOG - it looks like one of those residential development courses where there is OB right on every single hole?
What about Spyglass? I thought it only had the strong ocean holes while the balance of the course was rather contrived with artificial ponds and what not.
Do the modern course ratings also have a "historical" advantage which allows what may be "also rans" to hang around the top longer than they should?
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I do not think Bandon Dunes is top 10 modern either. It is very very good but not great. The design weaknesses in routing and several holes overcome some really great great holes.
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I am psyched...Witch Hollow #71 and Cal Club #60. Although I think Cal Club will continue to rise once more people have the chance to play it.
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DeVries, you dope, it didn't just make the list. It made the cover (see the Web site teaser).
Brad, any chance GW will do a combined ranking, with modern and classic on the same list? This could be in addition to the separate rankings you have now.
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Biggest winners and losers according to the posted data:
Modern - Winners:
Colorado GC - 77 spots (from NR)
Fallen Oak - 45 (from NR)
Boston GC - 22
Estancia - 21 (from NR)
McArthur - 19 (from NR) I don't know anything about this course?
Butler National - 15
Cassique - 14
Modern - Losers:
Hawks Ridge - (35)
Black Mesa - (21)
Briggs Ranch - (18)
Concession - (15)
Harvester - (15)
Forest Creek North - (15)
Classic - Winners:
Cal Club - 40 (from NR)
Canterbury - 10
Ekwanok - 10
Sankaty Head - 9
Indianwood (Old) - 9 Good to see, great course
Milwaulkee - 9
Classic - Losers:
CC of Fairfield - (21)
Engineers - (19)
Skokie - (12)
White Bear Yatch - (8)
Beverly CC - (8)
I'd say some of the biggest modern winners are Sebonack and Ballyneal. Sebonack moved up 7 spots, but they were real big ones: from 14 to 7. Ballyneal jumped 5 big spots: 13 to 8.
Along the same lines, a big modern loser was Kinloch. It fell from 7th to 12. Wolf Run also took a long fall, from 24 to 37.
On the classic side, Pebble fell from 4th to 7. Otherwise, things stayed mostly the same. As I would expect from year to year.
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In regards to Greywalls : BOUT TIME!!!! ;D ;D
As far as the debate goes on this discussion board, lets not forget that this is the collaboration of people across the country / world; as thorough as this list and others like it might seem, it will never resemble "A PERFECT TOP 100." It's based on combined opinions to generate a consensus. I think maybe GCA should release it's own top 100 list based on our votes (has this ever been mentioned / considered ;D ;D)
It does make for great a discussion, and is always a highlight on this website, as are nearly all the major publications ratings are. There are inevitably going to be perceived flaws (again these flaws are based on opinion) and thats fine. We must admit, there are several rankings that are directly inline with GCA'S plight; Crystal Downs ahead of Augusta National... (and agian how hard is that to judge since a very small majority of raters will ever play both of these courses let alone both of them).
Matt,
Architect bias amongst the rankings? Obviously this is going to happen. Can you imagine the GCA top 100? People are going to form opinions over time, I mean are there or are there not certain architects that you prefer? I get your point and in no way disagree with you, but as far as the "mass" of people / raters are concerned, inevitably they are going to form an opinion about someones work. How many times have you heard an average joe tell you, "oh well it's a donald ross course," when half (or more) of the time even if he did in fact design the course, his golf course is all but gone?
Sorry for the rant, ive gone ahead again and had a few Jameson's....you know that Irish Ginger Ale.
Nev
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Anyone have a quick list of what dropped off from both?
Dave is correct...Kingsley is THAT good...it's Top 10 modern in my book, but then again, so is Boston GC.
Re: Dunes Club...I've yet to play it, but the pictures posted here last year made it look extremely tight and tree-laden.
VERY surprised to see LACC ahead of Riviera...that's a real head scratcher, but perhaps the Fazio group have been tinkering again.
Nice to see both Pebble and ANGC at more realistic levels, as well.
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Delete
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If Dunes Club is #24, maybe I should build a 4 hole course so it can make the Top 10. The love-fest for this course just because it's a 9 holer is way over the top. Anybody who has ever played Ivanhoe has played every hole at Dunes Club sans the out-of-play sandy areas....it's a darn good course, but not a great course and certainly not #24...no offense.
good.
Perfectly put. I think 9 hole courses should not be allowed and definatly not at #24.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
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If Dunes Club is #24, maybe I should build a 4 hole course so it can make the Top 10. The love-fest for this course just because it's a 9 holer is way over the top. Anybody who has ever played Ivanhoe has played every hole at Dunes Club sans the out-of-play sandy areas....it's a darn good course, but not a great course and certainly not #24...no offense.
good.
Perfectly put. I think 9 hole courses should not be allowed and definatly not at #24.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Tony,
Just curious if you've played Dunes Club and if so how long ago? Also, why discount a course because it's 9 holes?
Ken
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Three architects/teams--C & C, Doak, and Dye--are now responsible for the top 9 courses built since 1960. Very interesting.
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Am I the only one that is tired of lists?
Anthony
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Am I the only one that is tired of lists?
Anthony
Instead of complaining, do something about it. Why not start a list of people that are tired of lists?
:)
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Am I the only one that is tired of lists?
Anthony
Instead of complaining, do something about it. Why not start a list of people that are tired of lists?
:)
or top 10 worst lists
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If Dunes Club is #24, maybe I should build a 4 hole course so it can make the Top 10. The love-fest for this course just because it's a 9 holer is way over the top. Anybody who has ever played Ivanhoe has played every hole at Dunes Club sans the out-of-play sandy areas....it's a darn good course, but not a great course and certainly not #24...no offense.
good.
Perfectly put. I think 9 hole courses should not be allowed and definatly not at #24.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Tony,
Just curious if you've played Dunes Club and if so how long ago? Also, why discount a course because it's 9 holes?
Ken
Ken,
I get asked this everytime I post something about The Dunes only being 9 holes. I'm even a Golfweek rater, myself. I have not PLAYED The Dunes, but I've been on and walked the property. I don't think that it's fair to the other 99 courses that a course is rated on 9 holes. What is Pebble was only 9 holes-#4-10, #17 & #18. It would be the greatest golf course in the world, but in it's current state, there are 9 other holes to rate at Pebble that are not quite as good as those previously mentioned. I do not think that a 9 hole course shold be included in the list.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
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Am I the only one that is tired of lists?
Anthony
Instead of complaining, do something about it. Why not start a list of people that are tired of lists?
:)
or top 10 worst lists
Carl,
Great suggestion. Like the top ten worst opening holes...top ten worst bunkers... top ten worst courses in the top 500...top ten worst major venues..top ten worst finishing holes..top ten worst programs on the golf channel... top ten worst greens... top ten worst clubhouses..top ten worst golf inventions... top ten worst golf personalities... top ten worst GCA.com threads...
Anthony
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If Dunes Club is #24, maybe I should build a 4 hole course so it can make the Top 10. The love-fest for this course just because it's a 9 holer is way over the top. Anybody who has ever played Ivanhoe has played every hole at Dunes Club sans the out-of-play sandy areas....it's a darn good course, but not a great course and certainly not #24...no offense.
good.
Perfectly put. I think 9 hole courses should not be allowed and definatly not at #24.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Tony,
Just curious if you've played Dunes Club and if so how long ago? Also, why discount a course because it's 9 holes?
Ken
Ken,
I get asked this everytime I post something about The Dunes only being 9 holes. I'm even a Golfweek rater, myself. I have not PLAYED The Dunes, but I've been on and walked the property. I don't think that it's fair to the other 99 courses that a course is rated on 9 holes. What is Pebble was only 9 holes-#4-10, #17 & #18. It would be the greatest golf course in the world, but in it's current state, there are 9 other holes to rate at Pebble that are not quite as good as those previously mentioned. I do not think that a 9 hole course shold be included in the list.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Is that ranking really for Mike Keiser's nine holer? I guess I just assumed it was for Dunes Golf and Beach Club - RTJ in Myrtle Beach...
Keith.
Edit: I checked out the Golfweek website and saw that it is the one in Michigan.
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It doesn't bother me to include 9 hole courses in this type of a rating--but #24 is still way too high for the Dunes Club. Its a great place and perhaps deserving of a spot on the list, but not the top 50.
One can always nitpick these types of things, but I'm disappointed to see two of my favorites fall significantly--Wolf Run and Black Mesa. IMO they were underrated to begin with, more significantly now.
I'd switch Whistling Straits and The Golf Club when comparing Pete Dye's finest. Not sure Golf Club would be #3 overall, but its definitely belongs in that top group.
Where is The Alotian Club? Not enough ballots? Its easily top 20 on the modern list, maybe top 10.
Rob,
Personally I do think Muirfield Village belongs in the top 20--probably borderline for the top 10 having only played some of the other candidates.
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Whereas I lose to George in that Oakmont surpasses Pebble... I can live with that because... again....
WE'RE NO. 1! WE'RE NO. 1! WE'RE NO. 1!
Pine Valley lovers and other east coast provincials, read it and freakin' weep. Cypress Point, king of the land!
;D ;D
To me these ranking results remain pretty funny, all magazines. It's just sad how seriously they do get taken.
I do have one question... MPCC Shore so oh very high, and Dunes not listed at all? You GW boys sure are missing a great course there.
;)
TH
ps to Sean - no clue when GD rankings come out. But look for LOTS of wailing and gnashing of teeth on here when they do!
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Tom,
Is MPCC Dunes a modern or classic? ;)
One thing you and I agree on is that is is a heck of course.
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Tom,
Is MPCC Dunes a modern or classic? ;)
One thing you and I agree on is that is is a heck of course.
Craig - beats the hell out of me! The whole modern/classic thing remains beyond my comprehension. See my first post in this thread.
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Tom,
If MPCC Dunes is considered a modern, then there is no way it doesn't belong in the top 100. I haven't played the new Shore course so I can't debate the relative merits.
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See my first post in this thread.
and last year's thread...and the year before that...and the year befor that...and the year before that, etc., in the annual all-in-good-fun rigor mortis horsebeating by Mr. Huckaby... ;)
Oh hell yes, fully agreed.
However, he without sin ought to cast the first stone.
cheater line... reverse Jans... need I go on?
;D
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Whereas I lose to George in that Oakmont surpasses Pebble... I can live with that because... again....
WE'RE NO. 1! WE'RE NO. 1! WE'RE NO. 1!
Pine Valley lovers and other east coast provincials, read it and freakin' weep. Cypress Point, king of the land!
;D ;D
To me these ranking results remain pretty funny, all magazines. It's just sad how seriously they do get taken.
I do have one question... MPCC Shore so oh very high, and Dunes not listed at all? You GW boys sure are missing a great course there.
;)
TH
ps to Sean - no clue when GD rankings come out. But look for LOTS of wailing and gnashing of teeth on here when they do!
It would be interesting to see of those who have played both on here, how many think CPC is a better golf course. Not favorite, or more enjoyable, but better. Like you, favorite and more enjoyable are more important to me on where I would rather play, but acknowledging better is a different story. I think GW likes to be contrarian, just like you ;)
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Sean: perhaps you need to explain what you mean by this:
Not favorite, or more enjoyable, but better. Like you, favorite and more enjoyable is more important to me on where I would rather play, but acknowledging better is a different story.
I do not understand how better is a different story than favorite or more enjoyable. What are you measuring? Architectural brilliance? I had no idea you were in the business... when can I play my first Leary course?
;D
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Huck...
I know you must be jesting re..Roma v Arsenal and the level of skill....unless you are like Wenger and believe that such a margin between the two in the premiership is all based on good fortune ;D
Once again SAF is winning the battle with his marvelous integration of youth and experience...he never fails to amaze me at just what a master tactician he is.
That been said...still rather watch Arsenal than Chelsea or Liverpool!
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TH,
It will be a Spaulding and Leary course. LOL.
Should have known better than to you ask that question of you. Tried to mitigate it but didn't work. Can't believe GD still has you on the panel. Can't they trade you straight up for Matt Ward? :)
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MWP: note that statement was made BEFORE yesterday's awful Arsenal performance.
Just give us Cesc back and our full best 11, and I shall match our skill level against ANY team, including ManU.
In any case it was meant as very very tongue in cheek. Giving stick to ManU these days is like saying Tiger Woods sucks. One does have to acknowledge the obvious, as painful as that might be.
;D
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TH,
It will be a Spaulding and Leary course. LOL.
Should have known better than to you ask that question of you. Tried to mitigate it but didn't work. Can't believe GD still has you on the panel. Can't they trade you straight up for Matt Ward? :)
Please. GW would need to throw in some raters to be named later.
;D
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Also, why discount a course because it's 9 holes?
Ken
Ken, the better and more apt question is: why the slobbering love affair with a course just because it's 9 holes?
In my view, if Dunes Club had another 9 holes just as good as what it has, it would perhaps crack the Top 100, but there's no way in hell it'd be #24. IMO, it gets at least a 60 point bump to #24 solely because it's a 9 holer and people seem to drool over that fact for some reason.
I think that it may be because it is a 9-holer that, because of the variable aspects that the course uses, plays like 27 holes.
I don't think it's totally fair to call it a 9 holer because of it.
And there is no way to compare the courses at Ivanhoe to the Dunes. Ivanhoe is fine and a nice complex...but there isn't a whole lot to write home to Mom about.
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Huck..
I know it was tongue in cheek, but just could not resist a jab myself...
hey poor performance or not, in the hat for the next round..that is what matters.
Anyway, less important matters...rankings!
Can somebody please explain why Whistling Straits gets all this love?
Other than being a modern feat of engineering with its false humps/dunes/sandy areas..what is it that people like?
It is to me at least an example of ll that is wrong with "modern" courses...overdone, unnatural in appearance and exhibits nothing but fabricated difficulty..
I just dont see the cleverness in the design...engineering feat aside...
To ramk it above the likes of Ballyneal, Kingsley and Old Sandwich for example just stuns me.
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Ken,
I get asked this everytime I post something about The Dunes only being 9 holes. I'm even a Golfweek rater, myself. I have not PLAYED The Dunes, but I've been on and walked the property. I don't think that it's fair to the other 99 courses that a course is rated on 9 holes. What is Pebble was only 9 holes-#4-10, #17 & #18. It would be the greatest golf course in the world, but in it's current state, there are 9 other holes to rate at Pebble that are not quite as good as those previously mentioned. I do not think that a 9 hole course shold be included in the list.
Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX
Tony,
While I'm surprised at the spot the Dunes Club gets on the current list, I would argue the love affair comes more from the connection of the course with Mike Keiser and the success of Bandon than the sole fact it's a nine hole course. Dunes has been there for quite a while and went unnoticed for different reasons.
My argument would be about eliminating courses because they're 9 holes. Over the years, there have been a number of courses reach very high rankings as "composite" courses. How is taking some holes from multiple courses and creating other holes just to accomodate a composite routing looked upon differently?
I'm still waiting to see a course built with a configuration less than 18 holes (12, 14, etc.) that architecturally would blow people away. Architects have made a similar comment but mutually agree a developer would not take a chance on such a project.
Ken
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Can somebody please explain why Whistling Straits gets all this love?
Other than being a modern feat of engineering with its false humps/dunes/sandy areas..what is it that people like?
It is to me at least an example of ll that is wrong with "modern" courses...overdone, unnatural in appearance and exhibits nothing but fabricated difficulty..
I just dont see the cleverness in the design...engineering feat aside...
To ramk it above the likes of Ballyneal, Kingsley and Old Sandwich for example just stuns me.
Michael,
I could not agree with you more.
Despite a few admittedly cool "post-card" holes that look like that calendar of fake, obviously brutal animated golf holes that were all the rage about a decade ago, the course doesn't even fake trying to look natural very well and holes like the 5th and the 18th are just horrific golf holes.
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Classic List Comment- I was disappointed to not find Sleepy Hollow on the list. Given the wonderful almost "all in effort" to restore/create a classic MacDonald/Raynor layout it is now maybe the BEST WALK and most FUN to play course in NYC's northern suberb. That said maybe not enough raters have seen it at its new found glory. They have continued to remove trees and open up vistas of the Hudson River. If we (us fans of classic GCA) want to see great restorations we have to reward those that take the challenge on. Let Sleepy find its proper place in the 60-80 range in 2010.
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I think Yeaman's Hall at #38 is quite interesting, and would even suggest it is a GCA favorite. Tom Doak rates it a 5 in his book, and has said numerous times that a good restoration might raise the course one notch on his rating scale. But based on his commentary in the book "Too bad about the greens; fixed up, Yeaman's Hall would be terrific.", I would guess Tom would rate the course a 7.
Yeamans Hall is difficult to judge from that because it has been so vastly improved over the past decade. I know the greens have been fully expanded and restored their original condition, and the Raynor bunkering has return to its former glory. When I played the course a year ago, I was extremely impressed. I always thought of Raynor as an architect who thrived on engineering and manufactured features, but Yeamans Hall is so great because of the way Raynor uses the rolling terrain.
Holes 6-9 demonstrate this perfectly. 6 is a slightly down hill redan that uses the right-to-left slope of the land gracefully. Seven climbs uphill, turning a 420 par four into the hardest hole on the course. 8 then turns 90 degrees and tumbles downhill to a green set along Goose Creek. 9 then climbs back to the clubhouse, with a bunkers cut perfectly into the hill to break up the climb off the tee. I could not image a better sequence for each of these holes. While all of them contain manufactured elements, Raynor's use of the land maximizes their potential.
Overall, Yeamans Hall does not have any clear weak holes like I have found at other top rated courses, including Garden City (5, 12), The Ocean Course (1, 15), The Country Club (1), or Oak Hill East (5, 6, 15). Holes like 1, 3, 6, 14, 17, and 18 are highly original and stand up to holes anywhere in American Golf. The course is maintained exactly as a golf course should be: firm, fast, and not over-manicured. I am very pleased to see Yeamans Hall where it is on the Golfweek list.
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Overall, Yeamans Hall does not have any clear weak holes like I have found at other top rated courses, including Garden City (5, 12), The Ocean Course (1, 15), The Country Club (1), or Oak Hill East (5, 6, 15).
Interesting you should say this. I was speaking to Nick Price during the Senior PGA and he said that No. 15 at The Ocean Course was one of the best holes he'd ever seen. He said that its natural look made it seem like it had been there for 100 years. I guess it is a matter of personal opinion.
(http://www.kiawahresort.com/downloads/view/Ocean_Course_15_Aerial.jpg)
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DeVries, you dope, it didn't just make the list. It made the cover (see the Web site teaser).
Brad,
I am really excited to see my copy now -- didn't know it was on the cover as I have been on the road for the last week (and we get ours a little later here in the great white north!)
Cheers,
Mike
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Classic List Comment- I was disappointed to not find Sleepy Hollow on the list. Given the wonderful almost "all in effort" to restore/create a classic MacDonald/Raynor layout it is now maybe the BEST WALK and most FUN to play course in NYC's northern suberb. That said maybe not enough raters have seen it at its new found glory. They have continued to remove trees and open up vistas of the Hudson River. If we (us fans of classic GCA) want to see great restorations we have to reward those that take the challenge on. Let Sleepy find its proper place in the 60-80 range in 2010.
Brad,
I would agree that anyone who has played Sleeply Hollow in the past should make every attempt to revisit, as it has been GREATLY improved and is probably now a good 1.5 Doak Scale points higher than prior.
It now takes great advantage of the stellar property instead of hiding it.
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Classic List Comment- I was disappointed to not find Sleepy Hollow on the list. Given the wonderful almost "all in effort" to restore/create a classic MacDonald/Raynor layout it is now maybe the BEST WALK and most FUN to play course in NYC's northern suberb. That said maybe not enough raters have seen it at its new found glory. They have continued to remove trees and open up vistas of the Hudson River. If we (us fans of classic GCA) want to see great restorations we have to reward those that take the challenge on. Let Sleepy find its proper place in the 60-80 range in 2010.
How long do the scores hold over in the rankings?
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Mike,
1.5 Doak points higher would put it at 8.5, but then again Tom has stated that he takes that into account. I think of it as a really strong 7 or 7.5 if you will. To take it higher it would need closer to world class greens IMHO.
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I agree a 9 holer shouldn't be in this list. If you had a list of 100 top 36 hole facilities, would you allow Black Mesa on the list because they are thinking about being 36 holes?
If you want 9 holers on a list, then make a 9 holer list. Or, rank each 9 of each course and then besides the list of 18 holers, give a list of 9 holers where #1 is County Down Front, #2 is Whistling Straits Back, etc. It's only a database query on existing data.
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Huck
I agree with you. This dual list is nothing more than pussy footing about. Classic? Modern? What is the difference so long as its good?
I don't know why folks are getting bent out of shape about a 9 holer. The question isn't how many holes the curse has, but how good the course is. I would agree that it will be harder for a 9 holer to impress, but if it does impress that is really saying something. For anti short holers out there - what if a course were say 15 holes. How bout 17 holes? Should they not be considered or qre you lot just down on 9 holers?
Ciao
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Huck
I agree with you. This dual list is nothing more than pussy footing about. Classic? Modern? What is the difference so long as its good?
I concur with that.. just note however that my take is more about giving friends a hard time than anything of substance.
;)
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Why would you rule out 25% of all U.S. courses from the mix just because they are 9-holers?
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Why would you rule out 25% of all U.S. courses from the mix just because they are 9-holers?
Apples to apples Brad, apples to apples.
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A comment went unchecked that 3 firms had all of the top 9 moderns. Just wanted to throw out there that Kidd has one too so is 4 firms.
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A couple observations:
I just don't understand the dissing (from some) of Bandon Dunes. From tee to green, one through 18, it's a top-notch golf course and one that absolutely transformed the game of golf in America. It's surely a Top Ten course, even if it has to come in behind Pacific Dunes in my mind.
I was happy to see Beverly stay (just barely) in the Top 100 of the Classic list, but I will freely admit that we need to greatly improve our maintenance if we expect to remain on the list next year.
Olympia Fields (South) and its newly revamped neighbor, Flossmoor CC, might be a threat to sneak into the Top 100 next year.
As for the Dunes Club, I'm torn. I'm a member and I think the place is just terrific, but it is ONLY 9 holes. And, contrary to Pat Craig's opinion, no matter where you put the tee in the ground, it's still only 9 holes, so it's tough to fairly compare it to the courses that have 18 holes. On the other hand, there is no comparison if you're looking at other 9 hole layouts, so maybe it is fair to put it in with the rest of the courses. As for the tree issue brought up by a couple observers, I will say that it LOOKS like it is "over-treed" but it doesn't (with one very notable exception) PLAY that way. To me it looks just as over-treed as Pine Valley does and I don't know how many people hereabouts would go on a tree cutting extravaganza at Pine Valley. There have been a number of offending trees cut down at the Dunes in the past couple years, but there is still (in my opinion) a major issue on the 8th hole that needs to be addressed. Mr. Keiser disagrees and he's Mr. Keiser, so he wins!
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When will we see the GolfWeek Top 100 Nine Hole Course list?
Classic and Modern ;D
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Edit.
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As for the Dunes Club, I'm torn. I'm a member and I think the place is just terrific, but it is ONLY 9 holes. And, contrary to Pat Craig's opinion, no matter where you put the tee in the ground, it's still only 9 holes, so it's tough to fairly compare it to the courses that have 18 holes. On the other hand, there is no comparison if you're looking at other 9 hole layouts, so maybe it is fair to put it in with the rest of the courses. As for the tree issue brought up by a couple observers, I will say that it LOOKS like it is "over-treed" but it doesn't (with one very notable exception) PLAY that way. To me it looks just as over-treed as Pine Valley does and I don't know how many people hereabouts would go on a tree cutting extravaganza at Pine Valley. There have been a number of offending trees cut down at the Dunes in the past couple years, but there is still (in my opinion) a major issue on the 8th hole that needs to be addressed. Mr. Keiser disagrees and he's Mr. Keiser, so he wins!
Terry-
Putting aside the actual number ranking of #24. Are you saying that you would rather play all 199 courses on the two lists before the Dunes Club?
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As for the Dunes Club, I'm torn. I'm a member and I think the place is just terrific, but it is ONLY 9 holes. And, contrary to Pat Craig's opinion, no matter where you put the tee in the ground, it's still only 9 holes, so it's tough to fairly compare it to the courses that have 18 holes. On the other hand, there is no comparison if you're looking at other 9 hole layouts, so maybe it is fair to put it in with the rest of the courses. As for the tree issue brought up by a couple observers, I will say that it LOOKS like it is "over-treed" but it doesn't (with one very notable exception) PLAY that way. To me it looks just as over-treed as Pine Valley does and I don't know how many people hereabouts would go on a tree cutting extravaganza at Pine Valley. There have been a number of offending trees cut down at the Dunes in the past couple years, but there is still (in my opinion) a major issue on the 8th hole that needs to be addressed. Mr. Keiser disagrees and he's Mr. Keiser, so he wins!
Terry-
Putting aside the actual number ranking of #24. Are you saying that you would rather play all 199 courses on the two lists before the Dunes Club?
Uh, duh, no I'm not, but I am saying that there is a legitimate question of whether it's "fair" to compare a nine hole course to an 18 hole course, in terms of rating them. It surely is fair to compare them in your own mind and I had to do that when I decided whether to join Lost Dunes or the Dunes Club. Lost Dunes is great, has unbelievable greens, a great design and an terrific club house. The Dunes has nine unbelievable holes, with great greens and an ambiance that is unmatched in my experience hereabouts. Despite the fact that there's no practice facility to speak of and one of the country's smallest clubhouses, I prefer the Dunes. I don't know if it is "right" however, to rate it alongside Lost Dunes because of the 18 hole issue.
Also, to follow up on Schmidt's point, it is unbelievable to me that Butler National isn't on the list of top moderns. I would rate it fairly highly.
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Hopefully you don't have me lumped in the dissing Bandon Dunes category. I love the course! My comments were more directed as a compliment to Kingsley.
As for OFCC South does that now count as modern? I got a walking tour last summer and really liked what I saw.
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As for the Dunes Club, I'm torn. I'm a member and I think the place is just terrific, but it is ONLY 9 holes. And, contrary to Pat Craig's opinion, no matter where you put the tee in the ground, it's still only 9 holes, so it's tough to fairly compare it to the courses that have 18 holes. On the other hand, there is no comparison if you're looking at other 9 hole layouts, so maybe it is fair to put it in with the rest of the courses. As for the tree issue brought up by a couple observers, I will say that it LOOKS like it is "over-treed" but it doesn't (with one very notable exception) PLAY that way. To me it looks just as over-treed as Pine Valley does and I don't know how many people hereabouts would go on a tree cutting extravaganza at Pine Valley. There have been a number of offending trees cut down at the Dunes in the past couple years, but there is still (in my opinion) a major issue on the 8th hole that needs to be addressed. Mr. Keiser disagrees and he's Mr. Keiser, so he wins!
Terry-
Putting aside the actual number ranking of #24. Are you saying that you would rather play all 199 courses on the two lists before the Dunes Club?
Uh, duh, no I'm not, but I am saying that there is a legitimate question of whether it's "fair" to compare a nine hole course to an 18 hole course, in terms of rating them. It surely is fair to compare them in your own mind and I had to do that when I decided whether to join Lost Dunes or the Dunes Club. Lost Dunes is great, has unbelievable greens, a great design and an terrific club house. The Dunes has nine unbelievable holes, with great greens and an ambiance that is unmatched in my experience hereabouts. Despite the fact that there's no practice facility to speak of and one of the country's smallest clubhouses, I prefer the Dunes. I don't know if it is "right" however, to rate it alongside Lost Dunes because of the 18 hole issue.
Also, to follow up on Schmidt's point, it is unbelievable to me that Butler National isn't on the list of top moderns. I would rate it fairly highly.
Terry, I understand your points. However I'm not sure I understand how it isn't "fair" for the Dunes Club. They built (as you said) 9 great holes, so great that you would rather join there than Lost Dunes. I'm not sure how it is "unfair" that you could or would assume that somehow, given the land, they would of screwed it up on another nine holes. (Is that the assumption as to why it is unfair...I'm just asking)?
If you ask me, I would think it would be a disadvantage to the Dunes that it is 9 holes, and that the ranking speaks for the overall quality of the course.
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If you would consider my earlier suggestion of also publishing top 100 nines, you would realize that the Dunes probably could not stay at 24 in such a list. There are 23 courses rated higher. It is impossible for both of their nines to be rated lower than the Dunes, or they could not end up higher as they are. Therefore, at least one nine from those courses is better than the Dunes. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that at least half of those have both nines better than the Dunes. This would push the Dunes to 36th on the list. Since 36th is all the better it could do on a list comparing nines, how a history major can argue it belongs at 24th on a list of eighteens is beyond me.
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BTW, I know this little private three hole couse where each hole averages out better than each of the holes on the Dunes. I think if Golf Week did the math they would have to put it about 15th on their list.
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Edit.
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The 6th hole is the best par-3 in the entire great lakes area. Hands down.
Better than any in Chicago? Better than the par 3s at Crystal Downs? I find that opinion hard to believe.
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If you would consider my earlier suggestion of also publishing top 100 nines, you would realize that the Dunes probably could not stay at 24 in such a list. There are 23 courses rated higher. It is impossible for both of their nines to be rated lower than the Dunes, or they could not end up higher as they are. Therefore, at least one nine from those courses is better than the Dunes. I don't think it unreasonable to assume that at least half of those have both nines better than the Dunes. This would push the Dunes to 36th on the list. Since 36th is all the better it could do on a list comparing nines, how a history major can argue it belongs at 24th on a list of eighteens is beyond me.
Garland, I understand your point and agree with it. If you split every course in the country into two 9 hole courses, and individually "rated" each one, I would bet Dunes Club would not stay #24 in the top 200 9 hole courses.
disclaimer: This is all opinion, I have never played the Dunes Club however have heard nothing but excellent things about it.
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Garland, I understand your point and agree with it. If you split every course in the country into two 9 hole courses, and individually "rated" each one, I would bet Dunes Club would not stay #24 in the top 200 9 hole courses.
disclaimer: This is all opinion, I have never played the Dunes Club however have heard nothing but excellent things about it.
That would be a pretty safe bet since I have already proven that the absolute best it could be is #24, that it is highly probable that it would be 36 or higher. And, I haven't even mentioned the multitude of 18 hole courses ranked lower than 24 that have one nine better than the nine at the Dunes, but suffered a lower ranking, because the other nine couldn't hold it up.
You know it's having that second nine that is an absolute killer. Those courses ranked lower should just discard the other nine and viola instantly they are better than the Dunes. ;)
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Edit.
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Pat,
The "Edit" feature is fairly convenient, but really disrupts the flow of conversation....
I'm not sure what the lesson is.....
Joe
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I don't see why a 9 holer can't be included on a list like this. While I know very little about Dunes Club if its a nice coures I don't see a problem with that.
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Overall, Yeamans Hall does not have any clear weak holes like I have found at other top rated courses, including Garden City (5, 12), The Ocean Course (1, 15), The Country Club (1), or Oak Hill East (5, 6, 15). Holes like 1, 3, 6, 14, 17, and 18 are highly original and stand up to holes anywhere in American Golf. The course is maintained exactly as a golf course should be: firm, fast, and not over-manicured. I am very pleased to see Yeamans Hall where it is on the Golfweek list.
I wouldn't call #1 at The Country Club weak. It's a dogleg at 450 where one cannot cut the corner. It's actually possibly the only true long-iron hole at TCC. I'd call 10 and 12 weak, which is why they remove them from the composite.
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I don't see why a 9 holer can't be included on a list like this. While I know very little about Dunes Club if its a nice coures I don't see a problem with that.
It's kinda like saying given his prodiguous basketball skills Jerry West is clearly the 24th best NBA center of all time.
:P
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Dave,
You've just passed me in number of name-changes on GCA. ;D
I need a good rap, hip-hop name and it's tough to derive one from my Slovak roots...
I'm thinking of pulling a Joaquin Phoenix move here and causing lots of confusion. How does one virtually convey that they've grown a long, scruffy beard and now speak in unintelligible grumbles?
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Am I the only one that is tired of lists?
Anthony
Instead of complaining, do something about it. Why not start a list of people that are tired of lists?
:)
or top 10 worst lists
Carl,
Great suggestion. Like the top ten worst opening holes...top ten worst bunkers... top ten worst courses in the top 500...top ten worst major venues..top ten worst finishing holes..top ten worst programs on the golf channel... top ten worst greens... top ten worst clubhouses..top ten worst golf inventions... top ten worst golf personalities... top ten worst GCA.com threads...
Anthony
Anthony:
I meant a top 10 list of the worst lists out there. E.g., Golf Digest's Best Golfers in Washington is a pretty bad list, and might be in the top 10 of the worst lists.
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I need a good rap, hip-hop name and it's tough to derive one from my Slovak roots...
You could borrow from the Flight of the Conchords and go with either Hiphopopotamus or Rhymnoceros...
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CAN SOMEONE PLEASE POST THE LIST!
Also, good to see Greywalls in the top 100 finally. Well deserved!
NICE! 'Bout time! Too low!
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Overall, Yeamans Hall does not have any clear weak holes like I have found at other top rated courses, including Garden City (5, 12), The Ocean Course (1, 15), The Country Club (1), or Oak Hill East (5, 6, 15). Holes like 1, 3, 6, 14, 17, and 18 are highly original and stand up to holes anywhere in American Golf. The course is maintained exactly as a golf course should be: firm, fast, and not over-manicured. I am very pleased to see Yeamans Hall where it is on the Golfweek list.
I wouldn't call #1 at The Country Club weak. It's a dogleg at 450 where one cannot cut the corner. It's actually possibly the only true long-iron hole at TCC. I'd call 10 and 12 weak, which is why they remove them from the composite.
While I wouldn't call the #1 at TCC weak...it's not the sexiest hole on the course as it plays dead flat for most of it. However it really is a pretty tough opening hole, as to cut the dogleg over the bunkers you need to hit a hard drive that flirts with the OB.
Interesting was a couple summers ago there was a huge lack of rain and TCC was playing with almost no rough and fast and firm. The old "spectator" hill (from the days that the 1st and 18th were a horse racing track) below the shooting range there on the right side of the hole became a great strategic option for most players...instead of going anywhere near the OB they would bounce their tee balls off and down the hill. However this does leave a tougher approach to the green which actually falls away to the right side.
As for #10 and #12...I like #10 as a member hole and even for better players it can be really fun to try to hit a driver at the green (which is a really cool green complex in itself). While #12 is easy, it is a really pretty hole and even Jack called it his favorite hole on the entire complex.
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Mike. I'm partial to the Etrade baby's Shankopotomous.
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What? No half built courses make this list?
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Brian,
"Flight" is the funniest thing on television since "Curb Your Enthusiasm".;D
Thanks for the suggestion!
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There's no doubt that certain courses should be rated in a top 100 modern but when I see certain course at certain positions within that grouping I just shake my head.
Bandon Dunes (original 18) and the Straits Course at WS are both solid layouts -- for me, they are not top 10 as they are listed now. Both have a range of solid holes but they also have enough shortcomings that would keep them from such a high level. For the Straits to be listed as Dye's ultimate design is in clear error, in my mind. The Golf Club is likely the far better choice.
Shadow Creek and Muirfield Village also are in the same boat for me. SC is about the desire to overcome the demands of building a site in such a demanding environment. It is unique for THAT reason -- the actual holes / layout are far less in my mind. Muirfield Village is a wonderful layout by Nicklaus -- the Bear has done better but no doubt the publicity from the annual tournament does help matters here. I would have both courses far lower than where they are listed now.
On the flip side - glad to see Bayonne GC mentioned. Although I am a fan of Paa-Ko Ridge in NM -- it's not 50 places better than BlacK Mesa by any reasonable definition.
Links of ND gets mentioned for one chief reason -- it's utter isolation.
Seven Canyons gets mentioned because of the spectacular off-site scenery -- Weiskopf has done better elsewhere -- see Silverleaf in Scottsdale as just one example -- Snake River in WY is another one that may be his finest.
Trump National is a fine layout but Kidd's effort at Tetherow deserves more attention than the NJ layout. Ditto Rock Creek for Doak although it may not listed because not enough people have rated it thus far.
Sanctuary is a fine layout but it's tied to how it was built. For pure fun and design merit for 18 holes one should play a more recent Engh layout in the likes of Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO.
Congrats to Greywalls for being selected. About time.
One parting shot -- Whisper Rock Upper is mentioned but the Lower is not. Puzzling indeed ! Quintero is a fine layout by Rees Jones but his work at Olde Kinderhook deserves to be there if anything from his design portfolio is included.
Clearly, the modern listing is a lovefest for devotees of C&C.
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Yes but Matt, not only do you get a vote, one has to believe you have serious pull amongst your brethren.
So what the heck went wrong?
;D
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There's no doubt that certain courses should be rated in a top 100 modern but when I see certain course at certain positions within that grouping I just shake my head.
Bandon Dunes (original 18) and the Straits Course at WS are both solid layouts -- for me, they are not top 10 as they are listed now. Both have a range of solid holes but they also have enough shortcomings that would keep them from such a high level. For the Straits to be listed as Dye's ultimate design is in clear error, in my mind. The Golf Club is likely the far better choice.
100% agreed with the above statement. Another head scratcher for me is Colorado Golf Club at #23. I attribute it to the C & C Love Fest you described. It's a good golf course with some really good holes, BUT....... To me there weren't enough holes where I would love to run right back to the tee for another go. Certainly a good handful, but not enough to convince me it should be that high.
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Sobe - I played CGC twice, and wished I could play it again. I thought it was pretty damn great. However... 23 modern? Seems high to me also.
Interesting though how the GW boys have shifted their mancrushes... sure used to be Doak....
;D
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Sorry Dave. I am going with the goose/gander initiative here. Just as GD was insane for omitting Kingsley for so long, you GW boys are equally insane for the ommission of Rock Creek.
;)
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Can someone please explain how Engineers is on this list? I belive there are fifty better golf courses within fifty miles of Engineers.
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Sorry Dave. I am going with the goose/gander initiative here. Just as GD was insane for omitting Kingsley for so long, you GW boys are equally insane for the ommission of Rock Creek.
;)
Tom, I don't think anybody's been there. I think I might have been the first one there after it opened, and that was August as I recall.
Sorry man. As true as that may be, it was not allowed for GD and Kingley.
So explanation DENIED.
Your magazine panel is rife with insanity.
;D
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Oh please David. MANY made the GD is insane claim the very first year. You are either forgetful or quite in denial.
As for how it played out after that, I make no comment.
So until Rock Creek appears on the GW list... you guys are completely off your rockers. Must have heads so far up C&C's butts you've lost all sense of vision.
;D
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Nice try, spinmaster.
What I am saying is quite simply this:
If one is to give GD crap for omission of Kingsley the very first year (when the truth was that few if any had seen it - and oh so many GW raters and others did give this crap); then similar crap simply must be allowable to GW for its ommission of Rock Creek (whatever the hell the truth might be, which is of course that few have seen it).
So, you remain insane and/or too submerged in the rectum of one of your mancrushes. Take your pick.
;D
TH
ps - of course the real truth is BOTH positions are inane. But what fun is that?
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Nice try, spinmaster.
I didn't read any further. I didn't have to.
It's not a nice try. It's game, set & match. Checkmate. A 9&8 match play victory. ;D
Yep. I won. Thanks.
And I paid you your beer. You were just too engrossed in conversation over the cheater line to accept it.
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Tom Huck,
Where does GD rank Kingsley today? ;)
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Tom Huck,
Where does GD rank Kingsley today? ;)
No clue.. and of course that doesn't matter. Let's talk when you morons get Rock Creek the accolades it deserves.
;D
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How does Sherwood not make the modern list but Mayacama does?
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How does Sherwood not make the modern list but Mayacama does?
I've always been under the impression that Mayacama was the better course.
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I have a few other comments to throw forward ...
Saw the state public ratings and in Colorado I just about laughed for the longest of times to see Cougar Canyon rated #1 but then there's no mention of Engh's superlative work at Four Mile Ranch in nearby Canon City.
It can't be the excuse that too few people played FMR but enough played Cougar Canyon. CC is a fine layout and likely Andy T will weigh in with his comments to support it. But the rest of the state ratings is also flawed with the likes of TF's Red Sky Ranch being rated among the top five but the far superior Norman layout there is rated far further down.
Someone also has to explain to me how a place of such stellar qualities like Vista Verde is NOT even among the top 25 public courses in all of Arizona. Big time mistake on that front.
Julian Wise:
Agreed -- how Engineers is ahead of the likes of Westchester CC which was totally dropped is another fumble in terms of real understanding. Those in the metro NYC area would likely agree with me on that comparison.
Huck:
I have no vote on the results that happened.
Digest takes a big hit for the constant ignorance (stupidity) on the issue of Kingsley. End of story on that front. In regards to Rock Creek the issue is likely exposure but clearly Rock Creek should have been included for the Golfweek poll given how other new courses such as Sand Hollow in Utah and the aformentioned Cougar Canyon in Colorado.
Key pubs need to be ahead of the curve -- not behind them.
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Matt,
I haven't seen the actual magazine yet--but I'm very surprised that Cougar Canyon would be #1 public in Colorado. I like it a lot, but I don't think I'd go that far. Four Mile Ranch certainly would be deserving of being on the list. Red Sky Norman also would be significantly higher than Fazio in my book. I like Lakota Canyon a lot, especially the front nine (other than #1).
I agree that there shouldn't be a 50 spot difference between Paa-Ko Ridge and Black Mesa. I think Paa-Ko's rating is very reasonable, its Black Mesa that is undervalued.
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Andy:
Given the dialogues we have shared on Colorado golf I am amazed at the ignorance / stupidity on how the ratings came out there.
We have shared our differences but those differencs are easily minor when you see the outcomes Golfweek offered for the state.
I like Lakota Canyon Ranch immensely -- but FMR is beyond what Engh did for the layout in New Castle.
The Fazio layout at Red Sky Ranch has formulaic written all over it -- a few holes of note but nothing to merit -- let alone sniff a top ten placement.
The Norman layout at Red Sky Ranch is easily among my top three public in the state.
The only saving grace for the Colorado ratings was the inclusion of Keith Foster's Haymaker in Steamboat Springs.
I don't know if you saw my comments on the omission of Vista Verde from the top 25 public listed in Arizona. That's another major fumble from Golfweek. I see the layout as easily being within the top ten there. How the Scott Miller original layout at We-ko-Pa as one of the top three layouts is likely tied to a double-header vote of support for both courses there.
Last item -- Paa-ko-Ridge is a top 100 modern in my mind. But if anything I see it towards the rear of the list and Black Mesa is easily within my personal top 25 modern courses. No doubt when the Doak 18 at Black Mesa opens there will be a "reawakening" towards the overall facility.
If anything I have to salute the folks at Bandon Dunes for their considerable savvy in getting their product out in front. The postcard insert in the current issue of Golfweek is another testament to their ability to keep their name front and center.
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I agree with your Vista Verde observation as well--I'd put it #2 public in the state behind Saguaro of what I've played. I've missed a lot on the public side though--in any case I'd have a hard time seeing it fall from my top five publics in the state.
I'm trying to hold off commenting too much until I see the whole list. My copy always seems to take its time arriving!
No argument on Black Mesa in the top 25 either. I'd personally put Paa-Ko Ridge that high too, but I know that I overrate it compared to everyone else I know.
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Couple of other comments ...
Hats off to Bedford Springs for claiming the 3rd position in Pennsy. Plenty of $$ and effort put into the place and it's paid off.
Frankly, it blows me away that people can keep on placing Olde Stonewall as a top three public there. Hurdzan / Fry have done better on cramped pieces of property -- see their effort at Eaglesticks in Zanesville, OH as a better example of that type.
When I see Links of ND claim a top 100 position I just know that a few other area courses are beyond it. Places like GC at Red Rock in Rapid City comes quickly to mind. Ditto the likes of other ND courses like Hawktree and Bully Pulpit.
For those from NC I'd like to know more about Leopard's Chase in Sunset Beach. Claims the #4 position in the Tar Heel State and that says something in my book. Is it merited ?
In my home State of NJ I think Hominy Hill gets a bad position -- although rated as #10 in the Garden State I see the work of RTJ there as one of this better designs that I have played. Seaview's Bay Course is mentioned, which is good, just thought it would be higher.
As much as Doak deserves credit for bringing back to life ACCC -- I see Twisted Dune as the best public course in NJ -- followed closely by Ballyowen.
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Matt,
Agreed about Bedford Springs (it's number 2 though..not 3), although it should be Number One. It's world's better Mystic Rock.
In a perfect world, I think Lederach should be in the first five positions of that list, as well.
In NJ, good to see that the list is really right on the makr, with a few exceptions like Wild Turkey.
Also, it's GREAT to see Ravenwood in Victor rise to #3 in the state of NY. I'm not completely sure it's that good, but it is certainly a very well-done effort that could easily fall under the radar given its location.
In Maryland, I was quite surprised to see Lake Presidential debut at #2 behind Bulle Rock with the demise of Beechtree. Frankly, I'm not sure which course should be #2 in that state anymore, as Dye and Doak's efforts were clearly head and shoulders above the rest.
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Matt Ward is my hero. Oh, to be able to make such confident judgments, to be so certain, so dismissive, so sure that everyone else is wrong and that one is right.
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Matt,
Leopard's Chase in NC is okay, but no way in my mind deserving of #4 in the state. I'd place it in the very low end of the top 10 at best.
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Why would you rule out 25% of all U.S. courses from the mix just because they are 9-holers?
Apples to apples Brad, apples to apples.
Garland
If its a golf course it can be compared to another golf course. All this talk of "they are so different that any comparison is unfair/meaningless" is tripe. All it takes is someone with keen observational skills and ability to get a point across well. Golf is golf and it needn't be anymore complicated than that.
Ciao
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Mike - your surprise at LP on MD got me thinking of my own personal rankings in my home state. Here are my own top 5 in GW's two catagories.
Classical
BCC
Congo Blue
Columbia
Burning Tree
FHCC
contenders (Elkridge & Mt Pleasant)
Modern
Caves
TPC Potomac (when it opens next month)
Bulle
Lake Pres
Oak Creek
contenders (Swan Point & Queenstown)
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Jonathan:
Interesting listing -- curious to your thoughts on Four Streams in Beallsville being left out. Isn't it worth a look on the modern side of things ?
I've always liked the layout.
Mike C:
I forgot to mention Lederach -- agreed it should be higher. Interesting to note that another Kelly Blake Moran layout -- Morgan Hill -- is not even listed. If memory serves, it was previously listed in the past as a top ten public layout.
Interesting situation in Maryland -- it appears there is an array of so-called "modern" courses that are roughly in the same caliber as each other.
I personally have always liked P.B. Dye but my take on that layout stems from what was there originally a number of years ago -- I believe, a number of elements there have been changed -- maybe others can say for certain whether those changes were for the better or otherwise.
Speaking of The Empire State, Mike, I know you are a fan of Olde Kinderhook as I am. How it gets lost in the shuffle is proof to me that few people really dig down deep and do their homework because of its isolation -- the Albany, NY is not generally known as a golf "hotbed" -- and clearly there are people who see Rees Jones in a certain light. OK certainly merits a top 100 position given the others from his portfolio that are listed.
David M:
Many thanks -- just a final question -- would a visit to play the course be worth the time and energy. I have a good college friend who lives near Sunset Beach.
Brad Klein:
You are also my hero.
When any publication comes out with a ratings it will invariably generate comments -- pro, con or otherwise.
I have my opinions -- no less than the ones you write in Golfweek. You are quite definitive in yours and I always enjoy reading them but I do reserve the right to disagree. Try to realize this -- I make it point to highlight a number of different points that are both supportive of what's been done while also pointing out areas where I see things differently -- some in a small way -- others in a larger way. I always try to explain my thinking whenever I can.
I state only my opinions -- they are mine. Feel free to take issue with them at anytime but try to go a bit deeper than the parental tone taken.
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Matt - I thought of 4 Streams. I've played it a half dozen times over the years and have always felt it is missing something. I'd put it in my second 5 but I know others would put it higher.
J
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Matt - another thing. I really think people are going to be surprised with the old TPC Avenel (TPC Potomac). As a longtime member I'm sure people will yell that my opinion is too bias but it could well be the best modern in MD. Come on down and see it when it opens.
J
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Why would you rule out 25% of all U.S. courses from the mix just because they are 9-holers?
Apples to apples Brad, apples to apples.
Garland
If its a golf course it can be compared to another golf course. All this talk of "they are so different that any comparison is unfair/meaningless" is tripe. All it takes is someone with keen observational skills and ability to get a point across well. Golf is golf and it needn't be anymore complicated than that.
Ciao
Sean,
Can you tell me that every nine hole course was evaluated and put into the database, and that only the Dunes made the top 100. Or, did only courses with a specific lineage get evaluated?
I would have less problem if the list were advertised as the ranking of courses with the best average score per hole. That would at least let you know why a nine hole course was included. It would also let the thoughtful person more easily come to the conclusion that it had an advantage with a smaller divisor and that comparing all nines would push it way down the scale.
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In a perfect world, I think Lederach should be in the first five positions of that list, as well.
Messrs. Cirba and Ward, I am now even more preplexed given the respect I have for your opinions. Lederach was among my biggest recent disappointments. I realize that places me in the minority so perhaps I should start another thread. I found it a disjointed mis-mash of interesting architectural elements.
Dr. Klein, it can't be easy being Matt Ward. A lot of responsibility comes with that big ol' brain.
Bogey
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I heard from a friend that Golfweek's new top 100 lists are out this week. All I know is the modern top 10 so far:
1. Sand Hills
2. Pacific Dunes
3. Whistling Straits
4. Pete Dye Golf Club
5. Bandon Dunes
6. Friar's Head
7. Sebonack
8. Ballyneal
9. The Golf Club
10. Shadow Creek
Sebonack ahead of Ballyneal? I can't take it any longer!
Somebody please post the lists soon. This is my favorite discussion of the year, since it gives us a chance to compare and discuss many courses. It also prevents me from making bold, definitive predictions about future stock market performance.
John - I agree with you that Ballyneal should be ahead of Sebonack (way ahead IMO), and I suspect that, if forced, TD would agree. I suspect he will remain silent, as he should. As for Stone Eagle, I think it was poisioned by this website's 110 degree afternoon outing in June of '06 and hasn't yet recovered. I am hearing, however, that more raters are showing up this winter and coming off the course very pleased.
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... try to go a bit deeper than the parental tone taken.
LOL
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Matt Ward and Brad Klein are heroes of mine as well.
Let's be honest here: There is a bit of group-think involved in the ratings systems of the various outlets that rate golf courses. That is a good thing, because different people like different aspects of golf course architecture and it is important for all points of view to be considered. It's also important, I think, to disagree without being too disagreeable.
In comparing the Golfweek, Golf Magazine and Golf Digest lists as we all do every year, there can be no doubt that Brad Klein has an effect that percolates down throughout his group of raters. Nothing wrong with that. If you happen to share the basic philosophy that is imbued in Brad's writing over the years, you are more likely to be happy with the lists that his group comes up with. He also has the ability to be more popular because Golfweek essentially has a Top 200 list. It's a lot easier to be loved if you're spreading the love around to more courses and more architects and more genres and more geographic locations.
There is also no doubt that there is a certain group-think in the Golf Digest or Golf Magazine lists. Certain architects are given more deference from GD than GW, not only because of the difference in the grading or rating systems, but also because these guys tend to talk to each other throughout the year, to play together throughout the year (just like the Golfweek raters outings) and they most likely tend to think in a somewhat similar fashion when rating courses.
This, in my judgment, is all human nature. I admire the work that Brad and Golfweek have done because they seem to have come at the subject from the angle of a well-educated outsider who has been a booster for certain up and coming architects and certain emerging architectural trends over the years. I also enjoy the work of the other publications, because a little controversy is good for the soul.
Having said all that, I just don't understand why Butler got dissed. It's a crime against humanity. It's unfair. It's stupid.
Only kidding.
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I make it point to highlight a number of different points that are both supportive of what's been done while also pointing out areas where I see things differently -- some in a small way -- others in a larger way.
Matt Ward,
Personally I enjoy reading your posts, for the amazement factor. "No doubt" is one of your favorite phrases. With respect to firmness of belief in your own golf judgment, some of us can only imagine how good it is to be you.
But your desire to drill certain things into our heads with your remarks here is curious. E.g., you never miss a chance to dismiss the Links of North Dakota, Bandon Dunes, and C&C's courses, most notably Saguaro--those are the ones I've repeatedly noticed--while relentlessly promoting Black Mesa and your other pets as the golf equivalents of the Mona Lisa.
Try to realize this--your narrowness of view on certain subjects makes it easy to ignore your views on matters seemingly important to you, when you are "pointing out areas where I see things differently."
Just an observation from the peanut gallery.
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Michael H:
Help me to understand how Lederach was one of your "biggest recent disappointments." Have you ever played any of Kelly Blake Moran's courses before Lederach? You mentioned how the layout in Harlesville is a "mis-mash" -- be interested to know what seemed so out of place / character there.
I'd be curious to know what Pennsy public courses you truly like.
Eric T:
Quite the contrary -- I have a huge respect for what C&C do in course design. I just don't see EVERY design meriting the highest of grades that so many people feel is due -- clearly the latest version of the Golfweek modern ratings have a high frequency / evaluation of their work.
In regards to my opinions -- they are simply mine. You can throw them out the window for all that I care. If you don't care for my comments of "no doubt" then ignore it.
I relentlessly promote courses of high caliber given the range of courses I have played. I like Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa but I don't see it being as high as those who see otherwise. I think the last 6-7 holes are well worth the print they inspire but the rest of the course was lacking for me. I also mentioned how a neighboring course -- not that far away -- in the likes of Vista Verde wasn't even mentioned in the top 25 Arizona public and for many who have played both they too feel the Ken Kavanaugh design is THAT good.
In regards to Black Mesa I like it to no less a degree that others on this site who just as zealously promote the likes of a Merion / East or a Oakmont or a Pasatiempo or Chambers Bay, etc, etc. I have no idea Eriv if you have played Black Mesa -- but if you have -- please tell me your thoughts before trashing mine. I'd be more the interested in reading what you think -- so long as you can provide some depth beyond one or two-word responses.
Look at the other comments of those who have played the course -- Andy's comes quickly to mind -- and they agree with me that the course should not have lost ground as the latest ratings from Golfweek indicate.
Let me point out that I like the Links of ND -- it's good but when you hold it against other nearby courses in the same relative neighborhoods I don't see it being worth a continuous top 100 placement. If you think my opinion is all wet on LND then tell me why there is a deficiency with the other courses I believe are more sound architecturally with the likes of Hawktree, Bully Pulpit, GC of Red Rock, etc, etc.
I also like Bandon Dunes -- I just don't see it being a top 10 among ALL MODERN courses in the USA. I never said the course was a dog track and I have highlighted the key holes there. It's about proportionality when you measure such courses against the other competitors that get little fanfare because they are not at a high profile location or have some big name architect as their designer.
I also salute the work C&C do -- I simply said that a few of their layouts have not risen to the mark of their best ones. Clearly, there will be room for disagreement.
You profess my "narrowness of view" but the reality is that I have a very progressive and wide range of likes for courses and have said so many times on this site. I am not so easily pigeonholed to one formula.
Eric, feel free to ignore me whenever you wish. It's big world full of different opinions. I can respect yours.
As you say -- just a note from the peanut gallery.
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Brad - Couple of questions...
1) How many raters are required to have seen a course to make a state's top 10 list?
2) How close was Primland to making the Top 100 modern list? I noticed it was second in VA...
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Mike - your surprise at LP on MD got me thinking of my own personal rankings in my home state. Here are my own top 5 in GW's two catagories.
Classical
BCC
Congo Blue
Columbia
Burning Tree
FHCC
contenders (Elkridge & Mt Pleasant)
Modern
Caves
TPC Potomac (when it opens next month)
Bulle
Lake Pres
Oak Creek
contenders (Swan Point & Queenstown)
Jonathon, have you been smoking something illegal? Oak Creek, (Swan Point & Queesntown contenders) in modern and Fountainhead (FHCC I guess?), Burning Tree, and Mt Pleasant contending?
Burning Tree is average at best.
Mt. Pleasant was good before Northern Parkway but not even a contender for top 20. Queenstown is just a watery grave. It isn't even fun.
I have not played LP or the new Avenel as yet.
Oak Creek needs to mature.
Swan Point would be average it it were in Myrtle Beach. It just is different from other MD courses.
I like Fountain Head and maybe it could be a contender now that I rethink it. I'd like to see them do some work on the course and clear out some trees.
I have never like Bulle Rock, but it probably should be on the list.
Maryland lacks some really top shelf courses once you get past BCC and Congo.
I won't comment on either Four Streams or Woodmore, since I am a member at both, but let me suggest a few others.
Chevy Chase, Congo Gold, Bethesda, Woodmont North, I might even throw in Montgomery CC since the redo.
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Jay,
1) 6 as a rule to make a state's list of the best public courses you can play, though in a very few rare exceptions for scarcely visited states (Alaska, SD), we'll drop it to 3-5 to make sure we achieve minimal coverage of five courses.
For the top-100 Classic/Modern it's 15 votes and we never, ever bend that one.
2) Primland would have been close, just outside top-100 Modern, but in any case did not have quite enough votes for the top-100, though it had enough votes for the best public courses list in the state of Virginia.
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Jay,
1) 6 as a rule, though in a very few rare exceptions for scarcely visited states (Alaska, SD), we'll drop it to 3-5 to make sure we achieve minimal coverage of five courses.
2) Primland would have been close, just outside top-100 Modern, but in any case did not have quite enough votes.
Brad, six seems like a low number. One guy and effectively kill a course. A course like Musgrove Mill is pretty unique and I can see someone not liking it at all and killing its chances.. I figured it would drop out of the top 100 eventually. But it is head and shoulders above Spring Island and Secession.
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Tommy,
see my distinction, which I have elaborated and clarified:
15 votes to make top-100; 6 votes to make the public courses list in that state.
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oops sorry. missed that.
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Why would you rule out 25% of all U.S. courses from the mix just because they are 9-holers?
Apples to apples Brad, apples to apples.
Garland
If its a golf course it can be compared to another golf course. All this talk of "they are so different that any comparison is unfair/meaningless" is tripe. All it takes is someone with keen observational skills and ability to get a point across well. Golf is golf and it needn't be anymore complicated than that.
Ciao
Sean,
Can you tell me that every nine hole course was evaluated and put into the database, and that only the Dunes made the top 100. Or, did only courses with a specific lineage get evaluated?
I would have less problem if the list were advertised as the ranking of courses with the best average score per hole. That would at least let you know why a nine hole course was included. It would also let the thoughtful person more easily come to the conclusion that it had an advantage with a smaller divisor and that comparing all nines would push it way down the scale.
Garland
Huh? Does Golfweek guarantee that all 18 holers have been put in a database? If so, does it matter? I don't really have a clue what you are on about with divisors etc. Its simple, courses are courses regardless of how many holes. They are what they are, take it or leave it. I am happy to take it and if I were a rater and found it exceptional I wouldn't hesitate to give a 9 holer high marks.
Ciao
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Matt,
Leopard's Chase in NC is okay, but no way in my mind deserving of #4 in the state. I'd place it in the very low end of the top 10 at best.
David,
That surprised me as well. I've only played Leopard's Chase once and liked it, as I have all of Tim Cate's courses. But I think I actually like Tiger's Eye better among just the Ocean Ridge courses.
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Brad:
I haven't seen the magazine yet, but assuming the rankings are done the same way as in previous years, only public courses are ranked state-by-state. Have you given any thought to ranking all courses (public and private) within each state?
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Yes I have; there's not much we can't do, except for limitations of time, space and clutter
Everything is on a vast digital spread sheet and with the click of my heels and the wave of wand I can produce any variation of lists per state, instantaneously sorted by category of course type (daily-fee, private, resort, municipal, Tour course, military, university, real estate); and we can do it for any state, all US states, or for US, Mexico & Caribbean & Mexico, whatever.
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Brad,
In ranking the courses in each state, would it be possible to have any course above X.X to be listed. Then CA would maybe have 31 courses, GA might have 11, etc.
Is the 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 used to balance out regional bias and to give the clubs a nice number to promote? I suppose if you are #9 it is nice to say you are in the "Top 10", but a course that is #11 might like that info also if they are an 11 that might be a 9 or a 4 in another state.
Just some thoughts. Love the lists and all the work involved!
Cheers, Jeff
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Yes I have; there's not much we can't do, except for limitations of time, space and clutter
Everything is on a vast digital spread sheet and with the click of my heels and the wave of wand I can produce any variation of lists per state, instantaneously sorted by category of course type (daily-fee, private, resort, municipal, Tour course, military, university, real estate); and we can do it for any state, all US states, or for US, Mexico & Caribbean & Mexico, whatever.
Thanks for the answer. Count me as a vote for putting composite state-by-state rankings on the GW website; I think it would be very interesting to see how non top-200, but still very good, courses compare (at least with others within the same state).
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Jeff,
I appreciate that you realize it is work. The whole point about creating a system that aggregates bias is that you're not doing science, you're just finding a way to collect individual views. But like everything else, it takes an incredible amount of behind-the-scenes work to make the system function as a system. If individuals want to disagree or argue that the lists are off, fine. That's their prerogative. All I can do is present the results and hope we have raters who are open-minded, educated and not starry eyed.
As for the state-by-state list, like everything else we do there's no definitive science. It seems to me (it's my call) that South Dakota, Alaska and Rhode Island, for example, all have a pretty narrow base of quality public golf to offer; whereas California, Florida, Arizona have an awful lot. So the former get 5, the later get 25, and in between there's a relative distribution of 5-10 (NC, SC)-15 (NY, NV, HI)-20 (MICH)-25.
I suppose we could simply list all courses above a certain baseline, whether 5.0 or 5.5. If 5.0 were the cutoff, we'd have 65 in Cal., 25 in Michigan, 17 in Nevada, 2 in New Hampshire and Tennessee; 650 in all, about 50% more than we have now. Hey, I kind of like that idea. If we had the cutoff at 5.5 we'd have a total of 330.
Oh well, now I'm gong to spend the next hour exploring the spreadsheet possibilities.
Meanwhile, I can also tell you that as much fun as is it is to configure ratings along different dimensions, we'd still publish a list that provides the best 5-10 or whatever for each state because the whole point of that list is provide a readers service to everyday golfers in each if the states as to where they can go in their state for quality golf. So in that sense, the state-by-state Best Course You Can Play list has a slightly different audience than the Top-100 Classic and Modern.
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In a perfect world, I think Lederach should be in the first five positions of that list, as well.
Messrs. Cirba and Ward, I am now even more preplexed given the respect I have for your opinions. Lederach was among my biggest recent disappointments. I realize that places me in the minority so perhaps I should start another thread. I found it a disjointed mis-mash of interesting architectural elements.
Dr. Klein, it can't be easy being Matt Ward. A lot of responsibility comes with that big ol' brain.
Bogey
Michael,
Having a pretty good feel for your tastes, I'm not sure I would have sent you to Lederach.
Certainly blind bunkers, and wild greens and trees seemingly in the middle of fairways and 625 yard severely uphill holes where two good woods leaves a completely blind 3-iron third aren't everyone's cup of tea, admittedly.
However, from my perspective, it's a course that stretches the envelope on what is "acceptable" and imaginative and makes you think on every shot and the fact it's a public course and they've pulled off that type of audacious chutzpah that makes me think of some of the most unusual and mind-bending features of St. Andrews in the middle of eastern PA farmland is something I find both artistic and worthy of merit.
Recognizing how admittedly unusual Lederach is, however, is why I said "in a perfect world", because I also know it's not in the mainstream.
I also owe you a large apology for missing your trip, but that's something better done in private.
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Mike C:
Interesting point when you mentioned the word "mainstream." Curious to know what that means to you and whether a listing of the best designed layouts needs to follow a "mainstream" bent? Must all or a large percentage of courses then need to follow a predictable presentation and style for them to be recognized?
Or might it be possible that those who feel Lederach or other such courses is lacking stems from a narrower base of courses from which they can draw certain conclusions as you have done.
I don't find Lederach to be so far off the path to the equivalence of say a Tobacco Road or if one wants to really push the enevelope of sensibilities - the original Stone Harbor comes quickly to mind. Or if you will Mike - one of your favorites (and mine too) -- the famous Shoregate !
Kelly provided a slew of options on just about every hole there and if players play the appropriate tee box the challenge is certainly well within most capabilities.
Look forward to your response (and others who care to weigh in).
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Garland
Huh? Does Golfweek guarantee that all 18 holers have been put in a database? If so, does it matter? I don't really have a clue what you are on about with divisors etc. Its simple, courses are courses regardless of how many holes. They are what they are, take it or leave it. I am happy to take it and if I were a rater and found it exceptional I wouldn't hesitate to give a 9 holer high marks.
Ciao
Courses are courses regardless of how many holes? Funny thing about that, get a place with 3 separate nines, what do they rate? Three courses? I bet if you examine the rated courses, you won't find three courses, but one because they have selected two of the nines to make an 18. If courses are courses, why would they put two different courses together for the rating? And you know what? I bet they don't make each pair such as A and B, B and C; and A and C and rate them. So they don't rate the three courses, and they don't rate the three pairs. So how does that compute in the courses are courses formula?
Guess this is an agree to disagree time.
Ciao
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Huck and Shiv -
GD has missed the boat on Kingsley for FAR too long. Top 20 in the state is an absolute joke. As far as Rock Creek goes, it is tough to get to and not enough people made it. I say give GW a pass. I hope enough of our guys make it there this year. I know at least two will ;D.
Some others have commented on Pete Dye GC. It is fantastic and my favorite Pete Dye layout. 'Nuff said.
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In a perfect world, I think Lederach should be in the first five positions of that list, as well.
Messrs. Cirba and Ward, I am now even more preplexed given the respect I have for your opinions. Lederach was among my biggest recent disappointments. I realize that places me in the minority so perhaps I should start another thread. I found it a disjointed mis-mash of interesting architectural elements.
Dr. Klein, it can't be easy being Matt Ward. A lot of responsibility comes with that big ol' brain.
Bogey
Michael,
Having a pretty good feel for your tastes, I'm not sure I would have sent you to Lederach.
Certainly blind bunkers, and wild greens and trees seemingly in the middle of fairways and 625 yard severely uphill holes where two good woods leaves a completely blind 3-iron third aren't everyone's cup of tea, admittedly.
However, from my perspective, it's a course that stretches the envelope on what is "acceptable" and imaginative and makes you think on every shot and the fact it's a public course and they've pulled off that type of audacious chutzpah that makes me think of some of the most unusual and mind-bending features of St. Andrews in the middle of eastern PA farmland is something I find both artistic and worthy of merit.
Recognizing how admittedly unusual Lederach is, however, is why I said "in a perfect world", because I also know it's not in the mainstream.
I also owe you a large apology for missing your trip, but that's something better done in private.
Wow. I have no idea where Lederach fits into any ranking system except my own, but I thought it a very good course. I was particularly impressed with the bunkering. I can't remember the last time I played a course where so few bunkers affected the game so much. Personally, I think archies should be going to see the course if only for the bunkering. If Lederach were in a better position where it was more walkable I would put it very high on my personal list. As it is, I think it stands up very well to highly touted courses like Tobacco Road - in fact I prefer Lederach to The Road.
Ciao
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...
Messrs. Cirba and Ward, I am now even more preplexed given the respect I have for your opinions. Lederach was among my biggest recent disappointments. I realize that places me in the minority so perhaps I should start another thread. I found it a disjointed mis-mash of interesting architectural elements.
...
"One man's mis-mash is another man's gem." TE Paul proponent of the big world theorem.
OK, I made that up, but I wonder if Bogey would come to the same conclusion if given Lederach in a blind contest like Charlie held for the armchairs.
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Huck and Shiv -
GD has missed the boat on Kingsley for FAR too long. Top 20 in the state is an absolute joke. As far as Rock Creek goes, it is tough to get to and not enough people made it. I say give GW a pass. I hope enough of our guys make it there this year. I know at least two will ;D.
Some others have commented on Pete Dye GC. It is fantastic and my favorite Pete Dye layout. 'Nuff said.
Agreed on Kingsley--we don't have any good excuse at this point. Hopefully there are more than two of us out at Rock Creek!
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Rock Creek should have been included in the modern listing -- in my opinion.
I'm not going to tout the course as high as Shivas would like but I was very impressed with what it provides - save for the weak closer which was good but far from being the powerful closer I had hoped would be present.
I've said this previously -- of all the pure-Doak courses I have played his collection of par-4's there is truly something to witness and lies at the heart of the strength of Rock Creek.
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Jim and Andy, you ought to be freakin' ashamed of yourself.
As correct as each of you are, don't you have any sense of humor... or more importantly, VENGEANCE?????
These GW namby-pamby can't choose between Cypress and Sand Hills wusses tore us all new asses when Kingsley didn't IMMEDIATELY vault to the top its VERY FIRST YEAR. As one of the head wusses points out here, it was INANE.
Well... as inane as it was... what's good for the freakin' goose is good for the gander.
Thus I want no excuses. GW is out of it's freakin' mind not to have Rock Creek way up at the top NOW!
And don't you all forget it.
Logic and reality has no place in this - have you all lost your minds?
;D
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I just went to the state rankings and saw that in Michigan one of my all time favourites is still hangin tough - The Gailes at #6. Not many of the courses built in the early 90s are still highly thought of. I think The Gailes is in truth under-valued/rated in Michigan and I prefer it to Lederach or Tobacco Road.
Ciao
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Huck,
I wasn't participating at the time of that Kingsley debate so it doesn't register for me with the passion that it does for you ;D
Problem is we still haven't corrected our mistake--I have a feeling Rock Creek might make the GolfWeek list long before Kingsley makes Golf Digest.
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Huck,
I wasn't participating at the time of that Kingsley debate so it doesn't register for me with the passion that it does for you ;D
Problem is we still haven't corrected our mistake--I have a feeling Rock Creek might make the GolfWeek list long before Kingsley makes Golf Digest.
Such realistic intellectual honesty about the validity and value of the comparative publication's ratings is indeed very refreshing here! ;D
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Sure, you're right Andy....
You're also zero fun whatsoever about this.
Same goes for you, Franklin.
As for validity and value of the comparative publications' rankings.. ask someone outside of this forum, Mike. Make sure and tell them Golfweek exists.
;)
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To bolster indirectly what Sean mentioned -- I looked over the Modern Listing and roughly 52 of the current 100 are courses opened from 1998 onwards.
Be curious to see how many of those courses are still around in a decades time frame.
Clearly, it appears the newest opened courses catch the eye -- the bigger question is whether they can keep the eye on them in the years that follow.
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Clearly, it appears the newest opened courses catch the eye -- the bigger question is whether they can keep the eye on them in the years that follow.
The bigger question to me seems whether they'll still be around in the years that follow.
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In reading this thread I am a little puzzled.
If no one or an insufficeient number has seen a venue..ie..Rock creek how can you expect it to be included.
Just because Doak is the architect and the photographs look great...that is not enough to include it this year..I agree with GW.
Even though it is "probably" good enough ;D
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In reading this thread I am a little puzzled.
If no one or an insufficeient number has seen a venue..ie..Rock creek how can you expect it to be included.
Just because Doak is the architect and the photographs look great...that is not enough to include it this year..I agree with GW.
Even though it is "probably" good enough ;D
MWP - and puzzled you ought to be... as was I when all these GW folks berated GD for not including Kingsley that very first year.
Because of course, one cannot expect RC to be included... but then again, one could not expect KC to be included by GD that first year... but for some reason these guys had that expectation then..... to the extent of questioning sanity...
So, what is good for the goose is indeed good for the gander.
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In reading this thread I am a little puzzled.
If no one or an insufficeient number has seen a venue..ie..Rock creek how can you expect it to be included.
Just because Doak is the architect and the photographs look great...that is not enough to include it this year..I agree with GW.
Even though it is "probably" good enough ;D
MWP - and puzzled you ought to be... as was I when all these GW folks berated GD for not including Kingsley that very first year.
Because of course, one cannot expect RC to be included... but then again, one could not expect KC to be included by GD that first year... but for some reason these guys had that expectation then..... to the extent of questioning sanity...
So, what is good for the goose is indeed good for the gander.
I will agree that GD should not have received grief for not includung Kingsley the first year, but since we are waaaaaaay beyond that first year, it blows my mind. Although I will tell you I had several not course raters from my club play there and hate it. They love Sand Hills but not Kingsley. I don't get it, but they do. Anyway, GW should receive the same amount of crap for not getting Rock Creek listed as well. I really hope GD gets a fair amount of people there (15 to be exact).
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Jim, what's happened beyond the first year is beside the point. The aim here remains not anything but giving the goose the same crap they gave the gander.
So really the only salient portion of your post is this:
Anyway, GW should receive the same amount of crap for not getting Rock Creek listed as well.
THus I am trying to dish such out.
;D
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Dish away Huck. Using those parameters then GW deserves the heckling for not including Rock Creek.
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Dish away Huck. Using those parameters then GW deserves the heckling for not including Rock Creek.
...at least for a little while, until GD doesn't have it on their 2009 list either! ;D
I live for today. Bite me Goose.
Sayeth the Gander.
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Dish away Huck. Using those parameters then GW deserves the heckling for not including Rock Creek.
...at least for a little while, until GD doesn't have it on their 2009 list either! ;D
I know we won't have Rock Creek on our list this year, but Kingsley better be. Somehow I don't think it will not make our Top 100 (beyond me why) so let the fireworks begin in a few weeks.
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Franklin, you have a real problem with living in the moment. Can't we PLEASE enjoy the greatness that is now?
If and when our magazine fails to list Kingsley again, then yes, let the fireworks begin. You just sure as hell don't have to ligh the fuse during the GW roasting BBQ.
;D
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I am just a realist.
But I can't believe RC wasn't in GW's Top 100. Amazing. Did you hear Shivas rave about the course last year? Shocking it didn't make the list. Shocking I tell you.
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I am just a realist.
But I can't believe RC wasn't in GW's Top 100. Amazing. Did you hear Shivas rave about the course last year? Shocking it didn't make the list. Shocking I tell you.
Now we're talking. How in the hell did those morons omit a course that is so obviously great, such that the pre-quitting the game shivas would have pointed the plane there before all other possible sites? The only answer is imbecility, stupidity or otherwise complete lack of vision.
;D
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Franklin, you have a real problem with living in the moment. Can't we PLEASE enjoy the greatness that is now?
If and when our magazine fails to list Kingsley again, then yes, let the fireworks begin. You just sure as hell don't have to ligh the fuse during the GW roasting BBQ.
;D
if Jim doesn't I know a few people who can Huck ;) ;D
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The issue for me is that magazines now feel compelled to come out with yearly updates on courses. The reality is that a bit of time should be the norm before such announcements occur. This would minimize the possibility that certain courses would miss out in a given year because of a lack of panelists playing there.
Second, the idea that matters can change that much in a given year is not likely in most cases. In simple terms, pubs are just coming out with such issues because the "news" they provide is hoped to generate a fair share of comments / interests, advertisers, etc, etc.
When any pub has several hundred raters in tow and can't be on top of all the key courses then something is amiss. All the excuses can be thrown forward but if the key info is coming from other sources than any magazine that takes great pains to puff their chest out and proclaim themselves as the source of all key info should really begin to question their own self promotion as hot air.
Is it tough to get to Deer Lodge, MT? Sure. Is it tough to get to Marquette, MI? Sure. But to be really taken seriously a national pub needs to be ahead of any curve and not have others players outflank them with better information.
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I suppose the only real "shocker" surprise I noticed last night was that Erin Hills was ranked the 5th public course in WI, behind the Irish Course at WS.
Now I have never been to Erin Hills (I hope to this summer) but considering all the talk of US Opens and how great the course is I am surprised it's not higher. Just a thought.
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Encore!
Old Sandwich is rated #13 among modern courses. Any opinions about the golf course?
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Encore!
Old Sandwich is rated #13 among modern courses. Any opinions about the golf course?
John,
Two friends of mine whose opinions I value played it the day after they played Boston Golf Club and much preferred Boston. In fact, they both called Old Sandwich a Doak "6".
They both used to post here but those were the good old days.
I have nothing more to offer other than I think Boston Golf Club is tremendous, so perhaps that's part of the reason for their letdown?
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Encore!
Old Sandwich is rated #13 among modern courses. Any opinions about the golf course?
John,
Two friends of mine whose opinions I value played it the day after they played Boston Golf Club and much preferred Boston. In fact, they both called Old Sandwich a Doak "6".
They both used to post here but those were the good old days.
I have nothing more to offer other than I think Boston Golf Club is tremendous, so perhaps that's part of the reason for their letdown?
Mike-
I would agree with your friends. Both are very very good, but I liked Boston GC better. Just my opinion.
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Encore!
Old Sandwich is rated #13 among modern courses. Any opinions about the golf course?
Here is an old thread with a couple of pictures that Josh Smith started that I was looking at a couple of days ago...
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?board=1%3baction=display%3bthreadid=26713%3bstart=0
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Thanks, Kyle. I see I contributed regularly to that thread.
I think I may be havng dinner with Josh Smith and other GCAs this evening. I'm asking questions!
Another course which has been getting some love (a profile by Ran and a feature in T&L, I believe) is May River in the South Carolina lowlands, which looks quite nice in photos, but doens't crack the top 100.
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I just got my copy.....
Really sad that Atlantic City fell out of the classic, and pretty disgusted that Rustic isnt on the modern....
I also saw once shocker to me on the State lists, in Mass....Dennis Pines is in the top in the state? it was a bowling alley when I played there back in the day, The Captains and Cranberry Valley were much better tracks than Dennis Pines IMHO...... I know they added 18 new holes at the captains and merged the new holes with the old to make two new courses, but the original course was great, and while I liked the old holes better, the new ones were still better than Dennis Pines.....I am pretty shocked at that one.
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I just got my copy.....
Really sad that Atlantic City fell out of the classic, and pretty disgusted that Rustic isnt on the modern....
The last 2 years Rustic Canyon was 100 and 99. Meanwhile, courses such as Sebonack, Chambers Bay, Bayonne, Pronghorn, Concession, We-Ko-Pa Saguaro, Colorado Golf Club, Fallen Oak, Estancia, McArthur CC, Greywalls, Spanish Oaks and the Golf Club at Ravenna have made it to the list. Added up, that's bad math if you're Rustic Canyon. I've never played RC, so I can't personally comment, but of the new additions to the list, there is some serious competition over the last couple years. It seems the modern list is pretty dynamic w/ new courses being added to the ballot every year.