Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tom Dunne on March 05, 2009, 11:43:51 PM
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Hi All,
I noticed recently that one of the old topics related to El Boqueron had resurfaced and thought some on the site might be interested in an update. (For those new to the forum, El Boqueron is a 1930 Alister MacKenzie routing plan for an Argentine estate course. The back story can be found here:
http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgolf/articles/golf-the-lost-mackenzie/
The plans themselves have been posted on GCA in the past--unfortunately, the above link does not include them--it would be great if someone could post them as they're quite a unique topic of conversation.
Anyway, I thought I would just keep this simple and pass along some of the relevant details. By way of disclosure, I am no longer employed by T+L Golf and since my departure from the magazine, I have served on occasion as an advisor to this project. Ran has extended a login to David Edel, so I'm sure he and other GCAers involved in the project will be able to contribute their thoughts, add some more of the details, and answer some questions as well.
So:
*Mike DeVries will be the architect.
*Edel has partnered with a Tacoma-based developer, Metropolitan RED, for the project.
*The working model is one of a private club with a mix of local, regional and national members.
*A site has been chosen, 30-40 minutes northwest of Austin, Texas. It is roughly 260 acres and includes an airstrip. (The property had once been considered for development as an airpark.)
*As I haven't seen it myself, Joe Hancock recently emailed me a quick description of the site (hope you don't mind, Joe, that I'm posting this): "The property is a really cool mix of subdued and dramatic. There's some neat dry washes that run through the property...some small, some pretty big. The vegetation is sort of "high chaparral"...nice mix of live oaks, arborvitae/ cedar-ish trees and small scrub/ native grasses and wildflowers."
*Recent on-site soil analysis yielded encouraging results (sorry, don't know the technical details here).
*Mike has completed a preliminary routing that aims to be as faithful to MacKenzie as possible, while allowing for the intricacies of the site to find their way into the design and meld it to the ground.
*Ground breaks this spring.
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Tom - thanks much for this.
That's really good news. Congratulations to Mike, Joe, David et al!
I enjoyed your article the first time around, and again this time. I'm on-line via a very slow connection today, and can't search the back pages for the plans.
More discussion please...
Peter
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Tom,
Thanks for posting the info and I will try to get on to GCA more often to answer any questions that people may have.
I have been in Austin the last couple of days to stake the tees, greens, and landing areas of the holes and gather more info on site. Joe's description is accurate of the vegetation and the cedars can serve in a similar fashion as the curros that were in Argentina, although not as severely disfiguring as the curros or gorse might be. The soils are very encouraging, as there is a lot of rock in the area, but the limestone is fracturable and not that prevalent as we initially thought -- good deep topsoil over most of the site and areas that are quite easy to borrow from for the few places where it is a little bony and thin.
The ground here in Austin is very similar to the land where the golf course was to be in Argentina and the original routing is being faithfully kept intact, with the exception of the 3rd and 15th green, which would have been in the bottom of the big dry wash -- I pushed the green out so both holes will now play over that feature and it gives some options for the drive on the 16th to be a long or short par four. Between holes 8 and 11 is where the dry wash turns into a pond and that will be our irrigation source -- this is certainly different than the narrow corridor with curros on the right side of 11, but what is special about it is the side of the pond on hole 11 is a dramatic limestone ledge 10-15 feet high :o and this will provide for a beautiful drive that entices the player to bite off more of the hole over the water. The other switch is the location of the clubhouse to the 1st and 17th greens -- this allows for a better siting of the clubhouse, with the range immediately to its side (right of the 17th as you look at the plan) and a beautiful view over the golf in front of you and to the hills beyond to the south of the property. It is an amazing project and I am honored to be a part of it. I will let David Edel post the plan drawing.
Gotta catch a plane!
Mike
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This is sort of like a dream, hearing of a new "Mackenzie" course. It's astonishing that (1) there is a piece of land close enough to the Argentine site to recreate the look and feel in Texas, and (2) that someone is willing in these hard times to step up and fund such a project. Great stuff!
After seeing Mike's work at the Meadow Club and Kingsley Club, and finally playing Crystal Downs in 2007, he's a great choice to do this work. The plans for Argentina looked very interesting and it will be great to see photos of the Texas project.
Finally, after seeing the modern Riviera couple of weeks and thinking what it would be like if the barrancas today could be restored to the dry wash of 1929, it's even more exciting to think about this Texas Mackenzie/DeVries course coming to life.
I'm planning to be at Barton Creek in Austin for a week in the fall and would love to get a look at the work then if possible.
Congratulations to everyone involved, this is very exciting.
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Mike, Tom,
I enclose a picture of the green of the 2nd hole in the original Boqueron. It was taken in December 1940 when Javier Arana, the Spanish golfer and architect toured Argentina.
Regards,
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This project sounds awesome!
So is Devries elbowing his way in as THE Mackenzie guy now ;)
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Alfonso Erhardt,
That is a tremendous photo--one I've never seen before. Are you able to identify any of the men in this picture? Jaime Zuberbuhler, Enrique Anchorena's grandson, might be able to recognize a few people as well, so I will send him a link to this topic.
A couple of points to make about this photo: a.) As the magazine feature points out, the course at El Boqueron was never built to MacKenzie's specs. What we're looking at is the work of Juan Dentone, an Argentine professional and gca, who designed a course for the Anchorena family loosely based on the MacKenzie plan. And b.) To Bill McBride's point, the piece of land for which MacKenzie was designing was not exactly Cypress Point in terms of features that would be impossible to reproduce.
Thanks for posting that, Alfonso. Would love to know, obviously, if Arana set down his thoughts on this or other courses during his trip to Argentina.
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Tom,
Arana is the guy to the far left and I believe that José Vallejo (also from Spain) is the third guy from the left. No idea about who the others are.
I have a couple more photos with Arana and other people having a drink that I can send you via PM if you are interested in identifying the other gentlemen. I also have photos of them playing in what seems another course in another of Anchorena's properties, La Azucena, where I guess there was another course. However, the pictures could be from El Boquerón. I am not quite sure and I would appreciate if you could check with Jaime Zuberbuhler if this second course existed.
In Argentina, Arana played Jockey and a couple of other clubs, and he started reconstructing courses in 1941, so I guess he must have been influenced by what he saw but I couldn't say for sure. I would say that the extra-large greens (over 40m) could be a feature he learned overseas. But I have never played a Mackenzie course so I can't say....
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Here's a few general pictures just to show what the feel of the property is, and to help illustrate what each and every project starts with...land without a golf course on it. I'll try to post occasionally, with pictures, to depict the progress of El Boqueron.
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/Winter2008082.jpg?t=1236369070)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/Winter2008073.jpg?t=1236369113)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/Winter2008086.jpg?t=1236369154)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/Winter2008091.jpg?t=1236369180)
Our project mascot, I presume...no one knows who the owner is. A fine caddy she'd make.....
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/Winter2008114.jpg?t=1236369270)
Joe
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Joe-
If it's Northwest of Austin, don't you think it's limestone instead of sandstone? Also, we call those scrubby evergreens "cedars" but, they're really junipers of some kind...
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Joe-
If it's Northwest of Austin, don't you think it's limestone instead of sandstone? Also, we call those scrubby evergreens "cedars" but, they're really junipers of some kind...
George,
Yes, it's predominantly limestone...not sure where I said it was sandstone, but if I did, I misspoke.
I also described(not identified) the small shrubs as "cedar-ish".... :)
Thanks for the corrections,
Joe
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Good luck with the project Mike.
I'm interested to know how much 'latitude' you are allowing yourselves to vary from Mac's plan? Naturally one would expect a little just to fit the holes to the different site. Look forward to your comments.
Neil
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Wow..congratulations.
This seems to be very rare news at the moment..plans for a new golf course to begin construction. Joe, can you share the basics of the business model that this course is pursuing. Is it a destination club, high end public course, local private club?
In the current economy, so many projects have stalled or even stopped. Here's rooting for a successful venture.
Bart
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David E - I don't know how hard it is to do, but if you could post the plans on here that would be just terrific.
Thanks - and congratulations again...a labour of love (but done with all the ducks lined up) getting off the ground in this economic climate is really wonderful news...
Peter
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Bart,
David Edel here, just thought I would answer this question. First off, it has been an honor to know and become friends with Jaime Zuberbuhler, and Enrique Anchorena III. I am proud that they entrusted me to this task. Believe me it is no small responsibility, and I take great caution to ensure that my tombstone does not read "Here Lays and Idiot".
I would hope to have the guidance and support of those who love the Doc's work to become involved in the creation of this course. In Mike DeVries, I have not only found a great friend, but a expert architect to ensure that course plays as it should. He has assembled a great cast of experts to aid him in developing the project.
As for the structure of the club, we want to use the old models of why a club was developed. This is not going to be a real estate development, but a golf club. I want the facility to feel like you are going back to 1930. No paved roads, or monster club houses. We will create 30 or so cabins for members to purchase is shares or out right ownership. We will use the original employee building from the Boqueron as our clubhouse. This building was set up a dormie lodge, and was designed by the famous Argentine architect Alegandro Bustillo. Therefore, the clubhouse will have rooms for rent to members and guests. This building is a cross between Cypress Point and the Olympic Club, and suits the Texas environment well. The property also has a 3100 ft air field with 3 large hangars and fuel dock.
We intend to allow some outside play, so those who have not experienced a course designed by Mackenzie can do so. We intend to develop a salon were all the Doctors work can be viewed in one location. I would hope that we gain the support from all involved to make it as accurate as possible.
My good friends Enrique Hernandez, Mark Risley, and I have acquired the rights to two other Mackenzie routings that were never executed. The two plans were also from Argentina. Mar del Plata Golf Club and El Nautico San Isidro have graciously sold the rights to the plans that were drawn by Mackenzie on his trip to Argentina and Uruguay in 1930. The El Nautico plan has the famed 1914 Country Life award hole (Lido) on it. So we are looking well beyond El Boqueron for authenticity and attention to the correct details.
In conclusion, we are very proud to be involved in this project. We took a while to find the right partners who wanted to do it right. I was worried in the begining that the only way to get this going was to make it part of a real estate project. What a relief to have it as it should be. I would love any input, both critical and positive. We have the embodiment of the Doctors work to study, and the right people involved to make sure it done correctly. We are building this with the knowledge of the economy, and that other clubs are getting hit hard. This course will be built around the same principles that clubs were built in the 1930's. Kind of funny how th ecurrent times parallel the atmosphere of the 1930's. A lot of great golf was created in that era.
Let me know what you think,
David Edel
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(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/DSCN7096.jpg?t=1236446317)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/DSCN7138.jpg?t=1236446344)
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb184/jhancock42/DSCN7240.jpg?t=1236446384)
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Oh my, David, that's incredible -- particularly the idea of a Mackenzie salon. I believe you have been in touch with Nick Leefe; there is a trove of information which Nick, Neil C, Sean T, and others have unearthed in recent years.
Would it be possible for you to post images of those Mackenzie South Am routings?
Regards,
Mark
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David:
Thank you for your kind response. I certainly would congratulate you on choosing Mike DeVries. His work certainly has my respect and admiration. I love the idea of a pure golf-only setting. Many of us are huge fans of MacKenzie's work, writings and ideas. Seeing more of his ideas translated into actuality is very exciting. In today's environment, I am completely unsure which business model will most likely lead to financial success...but based on your reply, I certainly believe you will have a heavenly place to spend time. Please keep us updated on your progress.
Best wishes,
Bart
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Alfonso,
It never seems to amaze me, how many worlds away and from a different time, that information like the picture come about. El Boqueron was a family estate course, so it was not open to the public. To have a picture from 1940 is just great. Can you send that photo and the story of Senor Arana for our archives. My email is david@edelgolf.com. I would greatly appreciate it.
As for the other course in your photos, to my knowledge El Boqueron did not have another course. The course could be Sierra de la Ventana, which is near by. It has more broken shelf land with hills, which are rare for this region of La Pampa. It could also be Miramar, which is a little south of Mar Del Plata. This course was designed by Aubrey and Percy Boomer in 1927.
As you can see in the EL Boqueron photo, the land is very simple and could be just about anywhere, which makes this plan adaptable to the Texas property. I will allow Mike to expound on the placement to the new sight. We do not have many photo's that show the course. Most of what we have are near the small clubhouse and are social event photos. Really cool to see shots of the course. As can be seen, the greens look nothing like the plans and are simple push ups. The 9 hole routing was used, but the greens were never done with the double green features. By the 50's apart from several holes near the clubhouse, the course was gone.
Jaime, was able to play golf with his Grandfather Enrique on the course for the first time, and he died the next day. A special memory for him.
Special photo,
David
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Joe-
If it's Northwest of Austin, don't you think it's limestone instead of sandstone? Also, we call those scrubby evergreens "cedars" but, they're really junipers of some kind...
George,
Yes, it's predominantly limestone...not sure where I said it was sandstone, but if I did, I misspoke.
I also described(not identified) the small shrubs as "cedar-ish".... :)
Thanks for the corrections,
Joe
George,
My mistake -- limestone it is. Just to reinforce my previous point, the rock is not substantial like it can be on some jobs. It will not be an impediment to irrigation or other digging of utilities on the site and that will be a big savings.
Mike
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Good luck with the project Mike.
I'm interested to know how much 'latitude' you are allowing yourselves to vary from Mac's plan? Naturally one would expect a little just to fit the holes to the different site. Look forward to your comments.
Neil
Neil,
There is minimal need to vary from the plan -- the only real changes to it I stated above in reply #2. The tweaking of a hole to accommodate the dry wash or a specimen oak will be neglible and not that different from the original drawing -- certainly, if the tree is in the way, it will be removed. The original site was very "plain-Jane" with not a lot of character and the site in Texas does have quite a bit more going for it in that regard with the dry wash, good trees and cedars (not just curros), but not so much movement that it is radically different.
One aspect that will be different is MacKenzie indicated only one teeing location but there is lots of space around the tees that is short grass and we will provide for multiple options for players, not just to have a regulation set of tees, but for variety. The club will be about playing the game and its camaderie, so what's to say that the next hole's tee selection isn't upon the winner of the previous hole? Or alternate who chooses the next tee? We will have some options just through tight mown turf to have a tee very close to the green and maybe making the hole/course quite a bit longer for certain events. This is not totally figured out, but the concept is to have multiple options and we could easily have a "strict original scorecard" but also lots of flexibility for different reasons.
The greens are HUGE and we are looking at how that will influence play and maintenance and will lead us towards some grasses and away from others, but that is not fully determined yet.
Cheers,
Mike
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"We have the embodiment of the Doctors work to study, and the right people involved to make sure it done correctly. We are building this with the knowledge of the economy, and that other clubs are getting hit hard. This course will be built around the same principles that clubs were built in the 1930's."
David - That says it all, it seems to me.
"The greens are HUGE and we are looking at how that will influence play and maintenance and will lead us towards some grasses and away from others, but that is not fully determined yet."
Mike -That also says it all, it seems to me -- i.e. making the design and maintenance and playability choices/decisions all together like that, especially in the case of huge double greens.
Peter
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Joe
Thanks for posting the additional photos. They add nicely to the ones you posted earlier and it certainly looks like a most pleasant and gentle site that would seem very nicely suited to this particular project.
Mike
That is terrific that the land lends itself to the building of Mac's plan for El Boqueron - some 80 years in the pre-construction phase - with very little modifications needed. Presumably you have visited El Boqueron property to understand the original site for the course? The idea for the teeing grounds sounds very nice indeed and should fit well. If I'm right I think Mike Nuzzo did something similar on his 9 hole private course in Texas.
David
The idea of a Mackenzie salon sounds fascinating and I'm sure Mac would approve provided there was a bar included so you could inspect with scotch in hand!
I was very pleasantly surprised (and shocked!) to read David that there are two other Mackenzie plans from his 1930 trip to South America that exist, apart from the El Boqueron and Club de Golf Uruguay plans which are well known. You mention these are Mar del Plata and El Nautico San Isidro.
The Mar del Plata course is listed in Doak Scott Haddock's book as being a course incorrectly attributed to Mackenzie, but I did note in Tom Dunne's article in T&L a mention of Mar del Plata as a course Mac did a redesign plan for, but I certainly did not expect there was a surviving plan. So it would certainly seem that the DSH reference is not correct.
El Nautico San Isidro is not a name we have come across in our research before - presumably this was a plan for a new course in the San Isidro area of BA? I know TAMS would greatly appreciate any further information on these two courses you could provide to us, and of course we would love to see the plans!
Mackenzie's trips to New Zealand in 1927 and to South America in 1930 are probably the two least documented and understood of his overseas design tours, but it would seem you are uncovering a good deal more about the Argentine part of that tour - but I think there are many questions also about his side trip to Uruguay as well. I plan to start a thread on Mackenzie's 1930 South American trip and would appreciate any input you could give.
cheers Neil
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Neil,
Yes, scotch is manditory! Think of all that was done in Australia in the short time he was there. Mackenzie was in Argentina from January to middle May. Until recently, the Jockey and the Golf CLub of Uruguay were the only two confirmed Mac's down there. It was known from The Spirit of St Andrews that he gave credit to work at Mar Del Plata. The truth about Mar Del Plata is that he was asked to look over and consult on the 18 nearly complete redesign by Juan Dentone.
Juan Dentone had just enlarged the course from 9 to 18, were he was the original architect designing Mar Del Plata in the late 1890's. Juan Dentone is regarded as the father of Argentine golf pros, so having Mackenzie show up and provide his 2 cents must have been difficult.
Mackenzie went in and not only gave his 2 cents, but disregarded Dentone's 18 hole revision and totally redesigned the course. I have all the minutes from the club ledger and in light of the crash of 1930 starting to show up in Argentina, they decided not to impliment the Doc'swork. Also, the Dentone routing is quite good and they didn't see the reason to take his advice. Besides, at the time he was not as well known, especially in Argentina. So, he did a plan, but he deserves no connection to the existing Mar Del Plata Golf Club.
As for El Nautico, that was a find. I was looking through 30 years of the Golfer Argentino that I had recently purchased in Argentina. From 1931 to 1960. In the early book, I saw an article with the plans on the page for the future plan for the El Nautico San Isidro by Dr. Alister Mackenzie. My jaw hit the book. This plan was off the charts with the Lido hole, Redan, Cypress #16 & 15, first green complex at St Andrews. I am sure a better eye could find other excellent attributes. The reason I state that the holes resemble these fine holes, is that is exactly what the club wanted. The great holes from around the world. We have a news paper article from 1927, with H. Cotton and Aubrey Boomer consulting for the club to create a course with great holes from around the world.
This plan is very unique in that when Mackenzie drew it, the land did not exist. Meaning it was swamp land and that only a small portion existed. Mac drew a preliminary 9 hole routing that would evolve into the the 18. They did build the 9 hole routing and it evolved into a different beast. The land was prone to high winds that in the winter swamped the course and flood it for months. A large dike was built and the features that made the course special were gone. Carlos Blasi, the pro at the club, became the new architect and the current golf course has no Mackenzie traits or flare. So, with the El Nautico, we have the 9 hole early plan, and the 18 hole plan.
Nautico is neat because there was no land, and to boot it was dead flat. The features were added from dredge spoils. The Mar Del Plata plot has gentle slope and is maybe more sight specific, but would not be difficult to reproduce, in my humble opinion.
Very exciting stuff, glad to see the interest. I know how passionate we are about Mackenzie's work, so alot of details to fill in and execute correctly. Any help is well appreciated.
David
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This is all very interesting to a Dallas guy with a sister in Austin.I assume it is on the opposite side of the river from Austin Golf Club,Lakeway,etc.Is it close to one of the new toll roads?A lot of people up here go to AGC and Horseshoe Bay.This sounds an hour closer.Plus,winter is almost nonexistent down there.Watch out,snakes ,centepedes,scorpions,snakes and snakes enjoy the hill country.
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I have to apologize to all. I've been trying to get the sacn of the plan up, but alas it;s on my other hard drive that has crashed and I'm in the midst of trying to retrieve it. As soon as I can get it, and no one else has posted it, I'll repost it on this thead.
David E., great stuff! That info of the Dr.'s other work while in So America is wonderful! One would have to deduce that there was more that he was doing while down there than orignally thought considering how long he spent there.
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David E.
Many thanks for this and the detail you posted about El Nautico San Isidro. Absolutely fascinating and it never ceases to amaze me how information about previously unknown involvements of Mackenzie can still be found today. Is this the course that today is called San Isidro Golf Club?
We have confirmed dates for Mackenzie's departure from NYC to BA (January 24th 1930) as the New York Times reported on this the next day - no name of the ship was given, although it should not be too hard to find out the ship(s) that left NYC that day for BA. The date of his arrival is not known but I believe the trip was around 2 weeks. From what I've been told there are no immigration records surviving from this time - can you confirm this from your contacts?
You indicated Mackenzie was in South America until middle of May, but the evidence we have found - scanned UK immigration records - clearly show Mackenzie arrived back in Southampton, England on the 'SS Alcantara' (from Buenos Aires) on 27th April 1930. As this trip took around 18 or 19 sailing days, his date of departure would have been around the 8th or 9th April. If you let me know your email address I can send you the scan of the entry record if you like.
I am wondering what info you have to suggest Mac was still in SA in the middle of May? I know the Club de Golf Uruguay plan is dated May 1930 but this could simply be explained that Mac did not draw the plan until he returned to the UK and then sent it on to the client after he drew it in May 1930. Mac also married Hilda Sykes in London on May 9th 1930 so he could not have been in SA at the same time I think - not even Mac was that clever!
So a tentative range of Mackenzie's time in South America would be from around 10th February to 8th April, pretty close to 2 months and only a little less than the time Mac spent in Australia (not counting New Zealand).
In The Spirit of St Andrews, Mackenzie simply states that "Mar del Plata is an excellent seaside course" but does not elaborate as to whether he did any work there or not. So your information is very welcome.
Fantastic info about the El Nautico find in that old golf magazine, again confirming that these periodicals are wonderful sources of information about lost and previously unknown courses - would love to see the article. And the amazing range of hole types included is also fascinating.
cheers Neil
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David S
Here's the El Boqueron plan - hope I haven't infringed any copyrights by posting it but I believe it has been posted before. Hope you get the HD sorted. :'(
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/ElBoqueronLR.jpg)
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Neil,
Great research. I would love anything you can send for us to display at the club. My timelines are merely based on subjective evidence, not of your detailed work. I new that he arrived in January, but what day? I know that he was at El Boqueron on March 4, 1930 as my guest register shows his signature with a date. I know El Nuatico is dated May 1930, aslo Club de Golf Uruguay is dated May 1930. I merely expected that he drew the plans in Argentina, but from your research I was wrong.
Much in Argentina is the result of Luther Koontz, who at the time worked for the Wendell Miller group. Koontz as explained in an article in Golfer Argentino graduated from Ohio State Uninversity, worked for Colt & Allsion, and also Donald Ross. He is a very well respected architect in South America having 27 or so courses attributed to him. He is listed as the superintendent at the Argentino in Palermo during the 40's. Koontz redesigned Olivos in the early 30's, it was later taken and relocated to the current sight, were he designed the 27 hole layout. He also redesigned several greens at San Andres Golf Club and San Isidro Golf Club. His vocational background is in irrigation and drainage, but I would guess that his associations gave him great insight in the minds of experts. In Argentina he found his niche and stayed. Not much is known about him, but with your skills you should have no problem.
El Nautico San Isidro and San Isidro Golf CLub are two different clubs. El Nautico at this time was one of the most prominant clubs in Argentina. It was and is primarily a sailing club. For this reason the land did not exist for the golf portion of the club. The land was being reclaimed in stages. When Mackenzie showed up there was a boot shaped piece large enough for a small 9 hole routing. San Isidro Golf CLub is close by and inland from the Jockey by about 1/4 mile.
My guess is that when he arrived, all the clubs wanted some insight from him. For this reason there is a lot of redesigning of greens and bunkering during the early 30's. The Golfer Argentino was a fortunate find and a tremedous resource into the world of early Argentine Golf.
I have heard rumblings about a some connection to Mackenzie at the former club Parque Camet in Mar Del Plata. It was acquired by state and turned into a community park, but at one time it had a golf club.
All of the Jockey Clubs records from that era were burnt in the fire when the Peronistas did their bonfire. The only plan that exists is the irrigation plan from the Wendell Millar group, which hangs in the club.
Interesting connections between Koontz and Ohio State. Maybe Koontz got Mackenzie the job,or Mackenzie found Koontz via Ohio State?
Keep put the good work. I plan a trip to Argentina in the next few months, so hopefully I can go to the newspapers and look for information about his movements. I am disappointed that his timeline has him for only a few months, as there could be more material to be found. My guess is the language barrier slowed things down, and communication was difficult for him. Also, that period is the summer there, and everything shuts down for vacations.
A note: the plans on the this site are for personal use only. It was my belief that showing the plans would give us all great insight into his mind set at the time. El Boqueron was probably something that was floating around in his mind and he found the right scenario to place it. Many asked whether is was prudent to show the plans in their entirety, but that would be selfish. I would hope all would respect their circulation. The version in the T&L had a seem down the middle and I knew that would be the case.
Good work Neil,
David
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Mike,
The course will be located northwest of Austin in a town called Liberty Hill. It is roughly 30 minutes from downtown Austin. Snakes taste like chicken, so we will have Snake Asados, centipedes not sure what to do with them, but I hear chocolate covered scorpions are pretty good. Saw a Gary Zimerman on the Travel Channel eat some dillos. We have them too.
I am moving to the property in the next couple weeks, so coming from the coast of Oregon to Texas will have some getting used to new critters. Nothing like having a BBQ in Oregon and looking over your shoulder and seeing a bear.
Anytime your in the area, I would love to show you the sight.
David
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If I'm right I think Mike Nuzzo did something similar on his 9 hole private course in Texas.
Small correction: on all 18 holes.
Congratulations Mike, Joe & David.
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If I'm right I think Mike Nuzzo did something similar on his 9 hole private course in Texas.
Small correction: on all 18 holes.
Congratulations Mike, Joe & David.
Oops! Sorry about that Mike!
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A question for Mike DeVries
Mike, as the El Boqueron plan has no scale, I was wondering how you have gone about trying to determine or estimate the length of holes Mackenzie had planned? As the green complexes appear large, as a result the holes look on the short side as a result. Have you a length target in mind for your course and how does this differ from what Mac intended? Thanks.
And one for David Edel
David, I have put up a separate thread on Mackenzie in South America and would be interested to see you post any comments you might have.
cheers Neil
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I second Neil's question. From the plan, I couldn't tell the number of par 5s vs. par 4s. Any additional details would be welcome.
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Mike - I had the same question Neil and Jay have, but was afraid to ask because I thought it was just me, missing something. Also, on another thread TE references the talks Behr and MacKenzie were having around this time about designing with little or no rough, and the use of melded fairways - what do you envision re fairway widths here?
Thanks
Peter
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DavidE:
I was in the midst of reading the article and how you came by all this. Fascinating stuff. I'll finish it off shortly and then I guess I'll have a few questions or remarks about estate courses and Macdonald's take on them perhaps vs MacKenzie's (or Flynn's). An interesting genre in the evolution of golf course architecture, to say the least.
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TEPaul,
I had known about the plans for a long time, maybe 12 years. With three generations heralding from the Monterey Pennisula, my affection for Mackenzie courses that I was able to play drew me to all this. My father caddied at Cypress Point as a junior. Whe I first arrived in Argentina to teach golf, I had no idea that he was there. My friend, Enrique Hernandez talked of the Jockey Club, were he is a member, being one of the most prestigeous courses in South America. Later I found out it was a Mackenzie, so I had to play it as soon as possible.
Later, at the 19th we would talk architecture, and the topic would come up once in a while about Jaime Zuberbuhler's estate course. No boby seemed to give it much thought that an individual had a routing by Mackenzie. When I heard that it was never executed as it was intended, and later fell to the plow, my mind started to ask questions.
I was older, so was Jaime, and any visions of him doing it in Argentina was not on the front burner. So, Enrique and I approached him with a win win proposition, and he graciously accepted. All in all the process smoldered for around 12 years.
I would like to hear your thoughts on any matter pretaining to Mackenzie and estate courses.
I have received numerous emails from many members providing valueable information, I really appreciate the knowledge.
Best to all,
David
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This thread is what the forum is all about, IMO. Thanks so much to all who are contributing. I also pass along thanks from a buddy of mine who is not a GCA member but who is keenly following this discussion as a "lurker".
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I second Neil's question. From the plan, I couldn't tell the number of par 5s vs. par 4s. Any additional details would be welcome.
I was looking at relative lengths of the holes and thinking maybe it's a par 70 with three par 5s and five par 3s. 35-35--70.
Par 5s - #2, #9, #17
Par 3s - #4, #5 (!!), #7, #12, #14
Par 4s - everything else, with #15 a shortish par 4.
There aren't many bunkers but the ones that are there are in very interesting locations. ;D
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/ElBoqueronLR.jpg)
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Joe, you can tell Mike I'll gladly move to Austin for the summer...
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Nothing etched in stone:
Hole Par Yards Hole Par Yards
#1 4 415 #10 4 440
#2 4 455 #11 5 500
#3 3 230 #12 4 367
#4 3 175 #13 3 225
#5 4 315 #14 4 377
#6 3 190 #15 3 200
#7 4 470 #16 4 377
#8 5 515 #17 4 453
#9 5 510 #18 4 473
Out 35 3275 In 35 3412
Par 70 6687 Yards
JMorgan,
Are you a trained chef?
;D
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Nothing etched in stone:
Hole Par Yards Hole Par Yards
#1 4 415 #10 4 440
#2 4 455 #11 5 500
#3 3 230 #12 4 367
#4 3 175 #13 3 225
#5 4 315 #14 4 377
#6 3 190 #15 3 200
#7 4 470 #16 4 377
#8 5 515 #17 4 453
#9 5 510 #18 4 473
Out 35 3275 In 35 3412
Par 70 6687 Yards
JMorgan,
Are you a trained chef?
;D
Just curious, Joe, how do you get #14 twice as long as #15 (the dogleg par 3?)?
OR.....are those yardages what's actually going to happen in Texas based on what's there in the terrain?
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Youallzzzz,
Jaime Zuberbuhler was lucky to find a score card for the 9 hole routing which is what gave Mike some scale to the holes. The course will be spread out only to reflect current issues with yardages and safety. The plan which might placed on to the Texas sight is fantastic, and we moved several greens as a result of increasing the perimeter holes, which gave us room to spread the center out a little more for better tee placements, etc.
The old card reads
1. 460 par 4
2. 473 par 5
3. 350 par 4
4. 291 par 4
5. 162 par 3
6. 390 par 4
7. 290 par 4
8. 441 par 4
9. 411 par 4
Total 3328
Remember this is for the front nine only on the original routing as Dentone laid it out in 1930.
Mike has the course at 6687 at a par 70. We changed the hole numbers by one to accomodate a better clubhouse placement that flows better with the property. Another nice feature is that the wind patterns resemble the original property as best as can tell. THe Texas routing will have 5 par 3's and 3 par 5's. The shortest par 3 is 175, 190, 200, and two at 230.
I will let Mike handle all of the commentary on his routing to property.
Best,
David
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Baked beans and ribs. And road trips to San Antone.
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Baked beans and ribs. And road trips to San Antone.
Don't forget the Gruene Hall in north New Braunfels on the way to San Antone from Austin.
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No kidding, I ran into Mario Batali on 41st St. today. Maybe I can get him to deliver?
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Joe H and David E,
By virtue of the effects of modern ball and equipment technology, won't the TX course play significantly different (shorter) given that it is of similar length (at least one nine) as the Argentinian plans of 1930?
How similar are the Austin site's climate, soil conditions and wind patterns to the original? Are the predominant winds in Argentina from the southwest?
Here is hoping that everything is falling into place for this project to go forward.
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Baked beans and ribs. And road trips to San Antone.
Don't forget the Gruene Hall in north New Braunfels on the way to San Antone from Austin.
Joe, seems like maybe you should ask Bill to come along, too. ;D
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Lou,
Good questions.
David would be best to answer site similarities, although Mike knows a lot about the topography of both sites, and the similarities they share as well.
Mike would be best to answer the technology/ equipment questions. He described in a post or two already how he moved a couple green complexes due to waterway issues, and in both circumstances it resulted in additional yardage. My take on it is the greens will really define what the golf course is all about, and to go on a hunt for additional yardage may take away from that focus.
Mike is on the road, so I'm sure he'll get caught up with posts here when he gets back to the office.
Joe
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Baked beans and ribs. And road trips to San Antone.
Don't forget the Gruene Hall in north New Braunfels on the way to San Antone from Austin.
Joe, seems like maybe you should ask Bill to come along, too. ;D
We're people people....the more, the merrier!
Joe
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Sounds like you all have about doubled the population of the town.This is a great location with the 183 toll road an easy shot from Austin and just 3 hours from Dallas.Cant wait to see the property.Are the plans to stay open in the summer?
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Incredibly exciting. Congratulations guys and the best of luck.
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A question for Mike DeVries
Mike, as the El Boqueron plan has no scale, I was wondering how you have gone about trying to determine or estimate the length of holes Mackenzie had planned? As the green complexes appear large, as a result the holes look on the short side as a result. Have you a length target in mind for your course and how does this differ from what Mac intended? Thanks.
Neil,
Sorry for the delay -- traveling . . . the nine holes that Dentone built was not exactly based on MacKenzie's plan but the perimeter holes are very close and occupied the same property that MacKenzie was going to use, so I was able to scale off an aerial of the original course, couple it to the 9-hole scorecard, and scale the MacKenzie plan from that. The MacK plan ended up being about 6100 yards in length for the original design.
The MacK plan was overlaid on the Austin property at scale and, with the adjustments to the routing to accommodate the dry creek bed and pond, will be about 6700 yards, par 70. This number could fluctuate a little bit, especially if you wanted to stretch it out all over with optional teeing areas and could be done, but the regular set will be moderate in length -- 6500-6700 for normal play.
One of the problem areas in terms of tightness and / or more play is with holes 3, 4, 15, and 16 on the drawing -- they are tight and all relatively short par 4's (#4 being a long par 3) which would encourage some "go for it" shots that could be a little more hazardous. Hole #3 is affected by the dry creek bed in Austin and so the green complex was shifted and made the holes longer, adding some yardage. A couple other greens were shifted slightly (about 50-100') but greens are in place as in the MacK plan and other tees add length more than anything.
Cheers,
Mike
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Mike - I had the same question Neil and Jay have, but was afraid to ask because I thought it was just me, missing something. Also, on another thread TE references the talks Behr and MacKenzie were having around this time about designing with little or no rough, and the use of melded fairways - what do you envision re fairway widths here?
Thanks
Peter
Peter,
The fairways are wide, just like the greens are huge. Many of them will meld together in places, due to the nature of the holes, angles, strategy, wind direction and strength, etc. There are also good clusters of trees that may be effective and I hope that they fall in the right spots so as not to diminish from the wide open Old Course effect that this design really embodies. How wide -- up to 100-150+ yards for combo fairways. The idea is to provide shaved turf that gives players the chance to get at the correct angle to attack the greens with a certain shot and use the humps and bumps with the firm turf to work the ball into places.
Mike
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Thanks for this Mike, I figured you may have done it by property lines as there appear to be lines on Mac's plan, but old aerials of the Dentone course seem like they have done the trick. I am a little surprised that Mackenzie did not put the hole lengths on the plan, given that pretty much every Mac plan I've seen has a card on it - perhaps this is the exception that proves the rule!
The plan does look rather tight in the area you mention and a little spreading would certainly not go amiss from a safety and a "breathing" perspective. But I guess this is limited somewhat by having all double greens.
Appreciate you taking the time to respond to these questions.
cheers Neil
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I second Neil's question. From the plan, I couldn't tell the number of par 5s vs. par 4s. Any additional details would be welcome.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t65/Saabman2005/ElBoqueronLR.jpg)
Nothing etched in stone: AUSTIN SCORECARD
Hole Par Yards Hole Par Yards
#1 4 415 #10 4 440
#2 4 455 #11 5 500
#3 3 230 #12 4 367
#4 3 175 #13 3 225
#5 4 315 #14 4 377
#6 3 190 #15 3 200
#7 4 470 #16 4 377
#8 5 515 #17 4 453
#9 5 510 #18 4 473
Out 35 3275 In 35 3412
Par 70 6687 Yards
When you look at the MacK plan, the clubhouse is the rectangle next to the 9th and 18th green. We are moving the clubhouse to what is the 1st and 17th green location, as the property allows for a very big practice facility on an E-W basis to the lower right off of that green and clubhouse location. This makes for a new numbering of the course, with #1 actually MacK's #2 and going around the front nine and finishing the front at MacK's 1st green, then playing #18 as the 10th, and following the rest of the back nine around from MacK #10 through #17, which is an awesome long 4/short 5 finish. Hope that is clear.
Mike
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Mike DeVries, you pretty much inherited the routing. But do you have more latitude with the greens and greens complexes? The bunkers?
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Thanks for this Mike, I figured you may have done it by property lines as there appear to be lines on Mac's plan, but old aerials of the Dentone course seem like they have done the trick. I am a little surprised that Mackenzie did not put the hole lengths on the plan, given that pretty much every Mac plan I've seen has a card on it - perhaps this is the exception that proves the rule!
The plan does look rather tight in the area you mention and a little spreading would certainly not go amiss from a safety and a "breathing" perspective. But I guess this is limited somewhat by having all double greens.
Appreciate you taking the time to respond to these questions.
cheers Neil
Neil,
It is unusual to not have a scorecard but who knows? I think it may have been the fact that it was an estate course and even though he had designated teeing grounds for each hole, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that more would evolve or they would just find the most adjacent spot to tee it up -- much like how the game started and the rules said to do so 1 club length from the hole.
The enormity of the greens certainly gives us a lot of variety and flexibility also. From the discussion on the other thread about estate courses, maybe MacKenzie suspected that conditioning was not going to be very good and therefore made these large greens so there would be enough space with a good surface?
Another thing to note -- look at the lighter lines that are intermingled throughout the golf course, with a circle near each green complex. I believe that is a rudimentary piping system, gravity fed from the high point near the clubhouse, to irrigate greens (probably with a hose). It is the ultimate in simplicity!
Glad to see the interest and hear everyone's questions on the project!
Mike
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Mike DeVries, you pretty much inherited the routing. But do you have more latitude with the greens and greens complexes? The bunkers?
Jim,
This is not a set of construction drawings but an illustrative drawing that provides quite a bit of detail in the sketch. I want to do justice to MacKenzie's work and do not feel the need to add more bunkers -- certainly, the construction of the bunkers and greens will offer interpretation of the drawing and my experience with MacKenzie's work. To do it correctly will require a great deal of time and attention to the details in the field to give it the touch of MacKenzie. This golf course will feel and play old school.
Hope that answers your question.
Mike
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“I would like to hear your thoughts on any matter pretaining to Mackenzie and estate courses.”
David Ebel:
Below is about all I had to say about estate courses (I put it on the other thread). It’s not much but just a thought essentially comparing how two heavy-weight architects of the time seem to have viewed them and the concept of them----eg apparently quite differently.
“I guess it's a small point to make, but it seems Macdonald and MacKenzie came from almost polar opposite places on the idea of private estate golf courses.
From his book it's obvious Macdonald actively tried to deter a couple of very wealthy individuals (Otto Kahn and Payne Whitney) from New York and Long Island from getting him to design 18 hole private courses for them. Instead he tended to suggest a few GB prototype greens on 6-8 acreas that could be played at from various lengths and directions.
It seems like Maconald's prime concern about 18 hole private estate courses is that they just wouldn't be maintained properly which was clearly something of a heartbreak for him when he first went back and saw the deplorable condition of his ultra amazing Lido.
Mackenzie, on the other hand seemed to use the private estate course as a chance for some real architectural experimentation---ie Sitwell Park (one of the wildest greens ever built) and this private course in Argentina----El Boqueron.”
I grew up in the New York metropolitan area, David, and from the teens and 1920s there were probably more of those kinds of courses around there or at least the interest in them than anywhere else. Of course I’m sure you probably realize that in some ways golf in America somewhat began on private estate courses in the early years of the 1890s but those private courses were really rudimentary compared to the El Boqueron plan you possess and some of them later from the likes of Macdonald, Mackenzie and Flynn.
By the way, David, you should IM or email me. We have someone who has long been extremely interested in some form of private estate course or private community course application.
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Like Mike Beene...as I am only just over two hours east of Dallas...this is exciting...this thread is truly what GCA is all about...fascinating stuff a history lesson for one and then getting some insight into the development and building of a course from the ground up.
We should truly document thsi at each stage as a model for what gca is all about!
With the permission of messrs Devries and Edel perhaps we can putb together some sort of book on the project..that would dare I say it so cool.
I am going to the area in may to spend some time at Boot Ranch and surrounding area, and would love to "pop in" if that would be possible.
Great stuff...
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Mike DeVries, you pretty much inherited the routing. But do you have more latitude with the greens and greens complexes? The bunkers?
Jim,
This is not a set of construction drawings but an illustrative drawing that provides quite a bit of detail in the sketch. I want to do justice to MacKenzie's work and do not feel the need to add more bunkers -- certainly, the construction of the bunkers and greens will offer interpretation of the drawing and my experience with MacKenzie's work. To do it correctly will require a great deal of time and attention to the details in the field to give it the touch of MacKenzie. This golf course will feel and play old school.
Hope that answers your question.
Mike
The Texas hill country is a great place for fast and firm conditions!
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Mike - thanks very much for the expansive answers to my (and other posters') questions. Even I, with all the visual acuity of a slab of concrete, can start to see it/imagine it. The *space* of it....
Peter
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With the permission of messrs Devries and Edel perhaps we can putb together some sort of book on the project..that would dare I say it so cool.
I am going to the area in may to spend some time at Boot Ranch and surrounding area, and would love to "pop in" if that would be possible.
Great stuff...
Michael,
I will leave it to David to determine how to document the project. A book would be cool and I would help in whatever way I can, but it is not my main thing -- building kick-a$$ greens is!
Will be great to see you at the site -- you could offer some more thoughts on seeing an in-process project that way. Just be ready to grab a shovel and do a little digging! ;D
Peter P.,
Glad that it is helping you to "see the light" :)
Cheers,
Mike
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Wow, oh my....have I been under a rock. My wife's family lives less than 10 miles from where this is being built. All of a sudden visiting the in-laws just got better!
I have to admit though....what if the MacKenzie's routing doesn't fit nicely with what is on the ground there? The pictures Joe posted look promising, but if you are truly trying to stay honest with the Doctor's original routing then what happens when the reality of the site get in the way?
I played Austin Golf Club a few months ago and minimalistic totally works on northwest Austin sites like this.
Either way, I am really excited to got to Texas now!
Chip
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Mike, David
I hope this isn't a silly question but....
is it possible to play this course in reverse? Given the double greens, I just wonder.
James B
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Mike, David
I hope this isn't a silly question but....
is it possible to play this course in reverse? Given the double greens, I just wonder.
James B
From looking at the map, I get the feeling the backs of the greens are built up in some cases a lot more than the Old Course. The shots all come from one side rather than both sides as you get in St Andrews. The targets are side by side (180* plane) rather than 360* with shots from both directions.
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Mike and David..
Will the bunkering resemble the good mans work in the snad belt of Melbourne, ie..sharp edges at green side with very little fringe?
Those are probably the best set of bunkers I have ever seen all be it in pictures and on the telly!
thanks..
mwp
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Chip,
The ground is very similar in movement and elevation change to the original land in Argentina, the creekbed and pond in Austin falling at the low point of the land in Argentina, so the routing stays intact very, very close to MacKenzie's original -- the only green that gets moved substantially is the 3rd/15th (2nd/16th in the renumbered plan in Austin) because it "lands" in the creekbed -- and that actually added another element to the course and I think will marriage it to the land and improve the overall design and flexibility of the course.
James,
Think of the design as a really big reversible 9 holes -- it is 18 but you could compress it really tightly for a "private course" if you wanted. We pushed out some tees at the perimeter to allow a bit more area to accommodate more play and more options but with little play, you could literally tee it up right next to a green for the next hole -- very cool! What makes the double greens work is that they aren't all side-by-side -- some are end-to-end, others come together at 90deg, etc. It is great variety. The cross country golf will be spectacular!
Michael,
There will be tight turf around the greens in lots of places but the very clean, laser-edged effect of the Sand Belt is distinctive of their soils and ability to create and maintain those edges long term -- it is a unique environment that allows for that style to exist and it is difficult to obtain in areas where the soils are not so beneficial. The bunkers at El Boqueron may have some shaved tight into them and other sides will be rugged and more unkempt, all depending on the play and shots coming at the bunker and green in question.
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MWP,
To answer your question to a book or something, we do intend to some sort of video journal with a book version. It is our belief that the course and its development has a unique story. I think all clubs should document the development from begining to end, so a 100 + we are not having to dig for the truth. I can't speak for other clubs or developments, but I do not want this to happen with El Boqueron, it happened once, not again.
What excites me is the amount of information that has come forward since the thread has begun. Maybe many of you knew about these facts, but many are new to me. I am grateful for this forum, the potential that is here within. Each and every person has a fact or article, or something unique to contribute. For one person to research all this is a lifetime of work. Collectively the knowledge is huge.
I would hope that all those who love and respect Mackenzies will provide there point of view so we can make this a special project.
Thanks again,
David
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This won't add much to the depth of the discussion.
Boquerón in Spanish means "anchovy" (Engraulis encrasicolus). David, do you know why the original place had this name?
Regards,
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Alfonso,
Jaime Zuberbuhler led me to believe it was named after an important battle between Paraguay and Argentina backin the day. The battle was named EL Boqueron. I have been working so hard on other details, that trying to find out more about the name or why should something that I pay more attention to. I did ask Jaime and that was his response.
Anchovies anyone?
David
"Where do you play?" "I am a member at Achovie Golf Club!" I think we will stick with El Boqueron.
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David,
Instead of chocolate chip cookies in the men's locker room, you should serve anchovies. ;D
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Alfonso,
Jaime Zuberbuhler led me to believe it was named after an important battle between Paraguay and Argentina backin the day. The battle was named EL Boqueron. I have been working so hard on other details, that trying to find out more about the name or why should something that I pay more attention to. I did ask Jaime and that was his response.
Anchovies anyone?
David
"Where do you play?" "I am a member at Achovie Golf Club!" I think we will stick with El Boqueron.
How about a little fish for the logo? ;)
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My quick search found "The Big Hole" as the translation of el Boqueron. One could take that either way, in a golfing sense, but anything is better than "Anchovy" IMO.............
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Rich
As John F Kennedy so famously and movingly said, "I am a jelly doughnut!"
Mark
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I thing the big hole sounds more like a battle ground scenario than anchovy. I will email Jaime to see if he knows why the name El Boqueron was used for this particular estancia.
A side note, Mike DeVries has just finished some green profile sketches. Some will be posted on Tom Dunne's new web based golf magazine www.out-and-back.net. As you all know T&L went down, so Tom has made the difficult decision to go all in on this new platform. Tom is a great writer and will bring a great cast of contributing writers to give insightful content as he did during his tenure at T&L. I hope all will help support his efforts.
All the best,
David
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If you go with the anchovy theme, you can always build a brick-wood fired oven and make great original style pizza with anchovy topping, or make the Ceasar Salad w/anchovy the club specialty...
Hey Joe Mike and crew, I'm no trained chef, but I can work out a pretty good ragu sauce if you kill, skin and butcher the rattlers... Taosted scorps on that Ceasar Salad might also be a interesting local culinary twist... :P ::) ;D
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I've just spent the last hour reading this magnum opus of threads. I missed it when it came out and feel it deserves a bump for others who may not have seen it. The Out and Back website is terrific, BTW. Good luck, Tom.
I may be coming out to TEXAS (Everything's BIG in TEXAS) this June. Consider yourself warned for a curious intruder.
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Mike- Those are great sketches....please keep us up to date on progress.
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This is great stuff. Joe's pictures from the site look remarkably like a lot of the land down here in Argentina. (The fact that this course is being built in the U.S., rather than Argentina -- with its abundance of land that would be very similar to the original site -- certainly says something about the respective countries.) Two questions:
1. David E: Where exactly in Mar del Plata is the site of the original estate? I get down there once in a while and wouldn't mind checking it out.
2. Has anyone played the GC of Uruguay recently? Is it "excellent," as Tom Dunne's article suggests.
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This is great stuff. Joe's pictures from the site look remarkably like a lot of the land down here in Argentina. (The fact that this course is being built in the U.S., rather than Argentina -- with its abundance of land that would be very similar to the original site -- certainly says something about the respective countries.) Two questions:
1. David E: Where exactly in Mar del Plata is the site of the original estate? I get down there once in a while and wouldn't mind checking it out.
2. Has anyone played the GC of Uruguay recently? Is it "excellent," as Tom Dunne's article suggests.
Bump.
.
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Tony, I was hoping you bumped this because there is news about the project getting underway.
??? ???
I hope this is the case!
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Tony, I was hoping you bumped this because there is news about the project getting underway.
??? ???
I hope this is the case!
Nothing going as of now, although I know that David Edel is still living on the site in Texas, working towards the goal of re-igniting the project during this difficult economic time. I hope he'll chime in if anything substantial is moving forward.
Joe
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Tony, I was hoping you bumped this because there is news about the project getting underway.
??? ???
I hope this is the case!
Nothing going as of now, although I know that David Edel is still living on the site in Texas, working towards the goal of re-igniting the project during this difficult economic time. I hope he'll chime in if anything substantial is moving forward.
Joe
What I figured. My daughter Jane has moved from Austin back to her beloved New Orleans (great job with the USDA as a microbiologist! ;D ), so my Austin travel will be reduced.
Hopefully the project will be underway next time I get over there. The combination of Mike DeVries playing the role of Dr Mackenzie, Joe Hancock on D-6 and that Hill Country site will be irresistible!
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Hello,
Just wanted to reply to give an update to how things are going. I appreciate all that are interested and I am hopeful that we can get back on track in the near future. I have been living on the property site in Liberty Hill, Texas since late March. All the issues with the economy have put things on hold, and recent health issues with one of our partners has been a huge concern.
As you know our banking institutions have zero interest in lending to a golf project right now, regardless of the quality or the idea. Since many of the failing golf clubs have been tied to housing and lot sales or clubs that have built massive clubhouses that can not support themselves, they see golf as a massive black hole.
Another issue has a lot to do with education. Members of this site are fully aware of the significance of an authentic Mackenzie plan that was never developed, but most people have little knowledge of the Good Doctor, only recognizing the fame of some of his designs. It takes time to get people to understand who Mackenzie was and the potential value of this project.
Right now I have the opportunity to either dilute the partnership or buy them out for the value of the land. So at this point I am working hard to find real solutions to make this happen. The who and the how have yet to be determined, so any advice would be greatly appreciated. I want this project to have soul and those involved to be determined to create a lasting legacy of a truly great golf club.
This is not going to be a housing development, but a club who's purpose is a great golfing experience. Old school, cabins for members, dormie lodge, walking, no paved roads, no cart paths, or corny pictures of great golfers that never played here.
I have recently acquired the entire golf estate of Roberto DeVicenzo, were we will gracefully display his golfing and personal achievements. Roberto won 231 times, second 127, and thrid 89 times so you can imagine the collection is sizeable, and I will take great pride in being the stuard of his golfing legacy. Roberto has been a friend, mentor, and teacher of mine since 1992, and since the plans and Anchorena family are from the Argentine it is a fitting connection. He also won 9 times in Texas with the Colonial, Houston Champions, Dallas Open, and 5 Liberty Legands titles here in Austin.
I also have great interest to create a Mackenzie room were all that is known about his works and correspondance can be view for the purpose of education. Much of what is known about this man is spread around the world and I feel it would be nice to have a place so those interested could view the sum of his known works. I would greatly appreciate any help with this idea, and obviously we are only interested in copies. Maybe this is a lofty goal, but why not try.
With all this being said, I would greatly appreciate any advice from members to help make this project a reality. In many ways I am grateful that this downturn happened when it did. Yes, I would love to see this built, but if it happened after the project was built may have hurt it worse than now. There is some irony in that some of the same issues that I am facing were what he faced in the 1930's. The principles and values of building great golf courses meant to be sustainable are as important now as they were when he was alive. Mike DeVries, Don Mahaffey, and Joe Hancock have been a great support and believers in El Boqueron and I value their contributions and friendship.
If anyone would like to get a hold of me my number is 541-335-1082 cell.
Thanks again for your interest and thoughful comments,
David
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Another issue has a lot to do with education. Members of this site are fully aware of the significance of an authentic Mackenzie plan that was never developed, but most people have little knowledge of the Good Doctor, only recognizing the fame of some of his designs. It takes time to get people to understand who Mackenzie was and the potential value of this project.
What does everyone think about some of the things David asks, especially the section above? Does the general (golfing) public even have an idea of who or what MacKenzie represents? How do we educate a broader spectrum about the importance of what this course is? Is it as significant as finding a Picasso, Monet, or Rembrandt in the attic?
Looking forward to hearing thoughts on these subjects!
Mike
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No the golfing public doesn't know what a treasure this is. When I talk to people who've been playing golf for the entire life, I am always surprise that they have no idea who an architect of a particular course is...even if it is their home course. I was playing a course just last month and asked...so who designed this course? Answer...I don't know some old dead guy. No kidding!!
Is it as significant as finding a Picasso? I think it is. But that is just me.
This may not be the time or place to say this...but I will anyway. I think the tv broadcasts need to do a better job of educating their viewers about golf, its history, and its courses/architects. Today, you get a 5 second overview of the course and its history. But I've been watching the repeats of the Wonderful World of Golf...they do a whole skit on the course, the architect, etc. Cool stuff.
Anyway...sorry for the tangent...but I think they tie in nicely.
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Golf clubs with courses designed by Mackenzie always seem to happy to publicize their heritage. Does that mean much to the general public? Maybe so because of all the Mackenzie chat on the Masters broadcasts.
Publicity for El Boqueron can certainly lean on the Mackenzie heritage, and that's easier to do than ever with Internet marketing.
I hope Mr. Edel is able to resolve the funding issues and you guys get going. I do love Hill Country terrain (play at Barton Creek every year and just played Austin Golf Club), should be a great setting for El Boq.
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I drove around the outskirts of the site about a month ago (with Tom Dunne guiding me via phone) and it looks like it could be a really neat site.
My biggest question is how well the actual routing translates from the orginal site to the new one.
Would a newly discovered Frank Lloyd Wright plan that was never built be just as good no matter where it is built? I have no idea??
The story sure is cool, but it comes down to what the new routing looks like on the ground in Texas and how that marries back to the orginal course/idea/routing
My two cents...
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Right now I have the opportunity to either dilute the partnership or buy them out for the value of the land. So at this point I am working hard to find real solutions to make this happen. The who and the how have yet to be determined, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
C'mon guys...this is what we're all about...we never let a chance to advise pass on by, do we? ;)
Joe
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This thread started before I was a member...but for what it is worth...I will read it in its entirety and share my comments, thoughts, suggestions, etc with you all. An idea with this potential certainly merits that.
I'm sure you are waiting on the edge of your seat to hear my thoughts!! :)
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Mac,
You have no idea about how much I can learn from almost anyone else.... ;D
I also hope Mike will respond soon to Chip's inquiry about the routing...all I can say is apart from a couple greens getting pushed out a bit, the routing lays on the Liberty Hill site remarkably similar to what it was designed to be in Argentina.
Joe
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I was doing a bit of searching and stumbled upon this old thread..... ;D
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,3876.0/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,3876.0/)
There's some relevant ideas in the thread.
Joe
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Chip raised the question / made the comparison about a Frank Lloyd Wright plan being build somewhere other than originally intended. Got me thinking about some FLW projects in Buffalo, NY that I'd read about while doing research in grad school. Two projects have been built there recently from Wright plans and another is supposedly close to fruition. All built decades after their original design and at least one is far from its intended location. Here's a link but unfortunately not all of the source links work. Several were very informative regarding background and issues surrounding the projects. (last 3 projects on the page - mausoleum, boat house and filling station)
http://www.wrightnowinbuffalo.com/whattodo/wright_legacy.asp#mausoleum
With some similarities to the El Boqueron project, study of these projects may be of value regarding the education, fundraising and marketing efforts that were undertaken to get them up and off the ground. I know that the architecture, historical, and tourism groups in Buffalo have done quite a bit to promote and revive the city's architectural heritage - particularly as it relates to the turn-of-the-century architects who designed buildings there (even managed to get an article in USA Today recently). Maybe there are opportunities to promote this project within the context of the rich history of Texas / Austin golf and the high regard of Mackenzie courses in other parts of the country/world. It could be viewed as a coveted, but currently missing, feather in the state's golfing cap. Granted, probably a lot more difficult to sell Mackenzie than Wright... but have to start somewhere.
-Daryn
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Pretty long bow to draw to compare finding a lost Picasso painting to a lost Mackenzie plan (even though I'd be happy to own either! :) )
The Picasso artwork is the final object, whereas the Mackenzie plan is an intermediary step in Mackenzie's vision for the final object, the built golf course, which in the case of El Boqueron, never actually happened.
Very few people outside of golf have ever heard of Mackenzie, and many inside golf as well, sadly. Frank Lloyd Wright is a household name in comparison to Mackenzie.
And I would love to see a Mac Room in the clubhouse that was an archival repository for copies of his plans, reports, letters, photographs etc etc. That would be wonderful. Good luck David, Mike and Joe and all others involved. Hang in there - our thoughts are with you.
Neil
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I drove around the outskirts of the site about a month ago (with Tom Dunne guiding me via phone) and it looks like it could be a really neat site.
My biggest question is how well the actual routing translates from the orginal site to the new one.
Would a newly discovered Frank Lloyd Wright plan that was never built be just as good no matter where it is built? I have no idea??
The story sure is cool, but it comes down to what the new routing looks like on the ground in Texas and how that marries back to the orginal course/idea/routing
My two cents...
Chip,
After visiting the original site in Argentina in October, I am even more convinced of the similarity of the land in Austin to that of the original site. Following are copies of earlier replies to a similar question. Hope these help you with your question.
Mike
The ground here in Austin is very similar to the land where the golf course was to be in Argentina and the original routing is being faithfully kept intact, with the exception of the 3rd and 15th green, which would have been in the bottom of the big dry wash -- I pushed the green out so both holes will now play over that feature and it gives some options for the drive on the 16th to be a long or short par four. Between holes 8 and 11 is where the dry wash turns into a pond right now, but the dry creekbed will be restored in the process -- this is certainly different than the narrow corridor with curros on the right side of 11, but what is special about it is the side of the pond on hole 11 is a dramatic limestone ledge 10-15 feet high and this will provide for a beautiful drive that entices the player to bite off more of the hole as he sees fit. [Note: is the 3rd/15th is the 2nd/16th in the renumbered plan in Austin]
The other switch is the location of the clubhouse to the 1st and 17th greens -- this allows for a better siting of the clubhouse, with the range immediately to its side (right of the 17th as you look at the plan) and a beautiful view over the golf in front of you and to the hills beyond to the south of the property.
I'm interested to know how much 'latitude' you are allowing yourselves to vary from Mac's plan? Naturally one would expect a little just to fit the holes to the different site. Look forward to your comments. Neil
The tweaking of a hole to accommodate the dry wash or a specimen oak will be neglible and not that different from the original drawing -- certainly, if the tree is in the way, it will be removed. The original site was very "plain-Jane" with not a lot of character and the site in Texas does have quite a bit more going for it in that regard with the dry wash, good trees and cedars (not just curros), but not so much movement that it is radically different.
One aspect that will be different is MacKenzie indicated only one teeing location but there is lots of space around the tees that is short grass and we will provide for multiple options for players, not just to have a regulation set of tees, but for variety. The club will be about playing the game and its camaderie, so what's to say that the next hole's tee selection isn't upon the winner of the previous hole? Or alternate who chooses the next tee? We will have some options just through tight mown turf to have a tee very close to the green and maybe making the hole/course quite a bit longer for certain events. This is not totally figured out, but the concept is to have multiple options and we could easily have a "strict original scorecard" but also lots of flexibility for different reasons.
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No the golfing public doesn't know what a treasure this is. When I talk to people who've been playing golf for the entire life, I am always surprise that they have no idea who an architect of a particular course is...even if it is their home course. I was playing a course just last month and asked...so who designed this course? Answer...I don't know some old dead guy. No kidding!!
Is it as significant as finding a Picasso? I think it is. But that is just me.
This may not be the time or place to say this...but I will anyway. I think the tv broadcasts need to do a better job of educating their viewers about golf, its history, and its courses/architects. Today, you get a 5 second overview of the course and its history. But I've been watching the repeats of the Wonderful World of Golf...they do a whole skit on the course, the architect, etc. Cool stuff.
Anyway...sorry for the tangent...but I think they tie in nicely.
Mac,
Sounds like we need to teh Golf Channel down to Austin!!!!
Mike
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Chip raised the question / made the comparison about a Frank Lloyd Wright plan being build somewhere other than originally intended. Got me thinking about some FLW projects in Buffalo, NY that I'd read about while doing research in grad school. Two projects have been built there recently from Wright plans and another is supposedly close to fruition. All built decades after their original design and at least one is far from its intended location. Here's a link but unfortunately not all of the source links work. Several were very informative regarding background and issues surrounding the projects. (last 3 projects on the page - mausoleum, boat house and filling station)
http://www.wrightnowinbuffalo.com/whattodo/wright_legacy.asp#mausoleum
With some similarities to the El Boqueron project, study of these projects may be of value regarding the education, fundraising and marketing efforts that were undertaken to get them up and off the ground. I know that the architecture, historical, and tourism groups in Buffalo have done quite a bit to promote and revive the city's architectural heritage - particularly as it relates to the turn-of-the-century architects who designed buildings there (even managed to get an article in USA Today recently). Maybe there are opportunities to promote this project within the context of the rich history of Texas / Austin golf and the high regard of Mackenzie courses in other parts of the country/world. It could be viewed as a coveted, but currently missing, feather in the state's golfing cap. Granted, probably a lot more difficult to sell Mackenzie than Wright... but have to start somewhere.
-Daryn
Daryn,
Thanks for the link and insight. That is some great stuff on the FLW buildings and history in Buffalo (I am a huge FLW fan, going back my youth) and we will look into how they are promoting his work there. One big difference is there is a high concentration of significant works by FLW there, like Oak Park and Chicago, that gives it momentum and we are starting from scratch.
Thanks again,
Mike
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Mike, am I recalling correctly that the El Boqueron plan didn't have a ton of fairway bunkers but would use native vegetation instead?
What are you planning to do in Texas?
The dry wash sounds very exciting and interestng and could add some George Thomas elements from Riviera and LACC as well as the Mackenzie design. The dry wash with diagonal carries creates great strategic elements. Both Pasatiempo and the Valley Club have barrancas and creeks in play. This all sounds too exciting!
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Okay…here are my thoughts…
But first please ensure I’ve got the background down…
David Edel is in possession of an old Alister Mackenzie course routing that was originally planned to be built on a private estate in Argentina. He has found suitable property in Texas, just outside of Austin, which the course could be built on. This land is owned by a Limited Partnership.
He has decided that Mike Devries will be the architect. And Mike has looked at things and he thinks he can do adequate justice to the plans and, essentially, build this bad boy in a way that does its Mackenzie roots proud.
The club will be old school…a modest clubhouse, no paved roads, no houses, just a private club with a few cabins for members to buy or rent, and limited outside play will be permited.
Additionally, David has the plans to a few other Mackenzie routings.
Do I have that right?
Assuming yes...
Given the slowing economy, banks are not interested in lending for this project and Metropolatin RED doesn’t have the funds to build it.
Is this right?
So, the question is...is it worth proceeding and/or how do you proceed?
I am not a golf course construction guru, but I can put two and two together and I have some experience in business.
Point #1---It is possible that if marketed correctly, it could be the next big thing. A new Mackenzie course…the guy behind Cypress Point and Augusta. It could be a huge home run. IF marketed correctly!!!!!
Point #2---To make it happen you need the man power. It sounds like you’ve got that covered. Devries seems awesome and I am sure all the other associated with it are as well. Do you have the marketing contacts to get the word out?
Point #3—You need money. Banks aren’t lending and Metro RED doesn’t have the funds. You know what I say…GREAT!!!! Loans and borrowed money can be the beginning of the end to any business entity. Interest carry kills!!!
How do we solve this issue? Frankly, I don’t think getting into the specific financial points online makes any sense whatsoever. But I will offer this up…
Dr. Mackenzie himself is on record as saying that if you don’t have enough money to build an entire golf course build as many first rate holes as you can…generate some revenue off of that…save up…then build some more. Well…do that.
Take personal monies of any and all interested parties, give them some type of ownership stake…then build one hole at a time. However, I think it is vital that ONE person be the decision maker…no matter how many people contribute capital…to maximize the probability of this thing being successful one guy must make the key decisions. Also, have Mike D. pick and choose which holes would inspire more people to join and/or contribute funds and build those holes first.
You can give incentive offers to people contributing capital or joining first. Lower membership rates, more perks, “founding member”status, profit share, whatever.
Next you will need to run numbers and targets need to be established for members/funds raised per holes build and the like…but you get what I am driving at, right?
FYI…I would be happy to discuss any of this with you offline if you like.
This type of Mackenzie course being built with the Mackenzie “one hole at a time model” can be marketed to pique interest. Essentially turning what some might consider a weakness into a strength.
Point #4---Also, if there is enough land available you can also incent people to join by trying to build the other 2 or 3 Mackenzie courses right there on site when the time is right. OR you could offer memberships to the other 2 or 3 Mackenzie clubs (assuming they will be built somewhere else) if members pony up $X to help build course #1. You could use profits off of course #1 to help seed the other 2 or 3. But if this one is successful, raising capital for the others will be a snap.
Anyway, I will stop now…but I could bore you to death.
As always, my apologies for overlooking key players and/or not mentioning the appropriate names and the like. I am ignorant on a lot of this and just trying to maybe add a good idea here and there.
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Do you plan a fall,winter,spring season and close for summer? Have you decided on grasses?
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Do you plan a fall,winter,spring season and close for summer? Have you decided on grasses?
Mike,
In Central or South Texas golf is played 12 months a year. There will be days in the winter and summer when you might stay in the bar and have a drink instead, but it's a 12 month sport down here and I think the idea behind the club is to keep it simple and keep it open to members who want to tee it up.
The grassing plan is driven by environmental conditions, soil structure, water quality and availability. This part of the world is basically considered warm season grass country, at least thru the green, and the soil and water testing we did confirmed we could maintain a very high quality sward of dwarf Bermuda golfing turf. We found ample deposits of high quality top soil and located a sand source, for, greens, surrounds, tees, and capping if needed, nearby.
The greens are huge. Nine double greens that, on paper, are between eight and nine acres in size. Our water quality is good, so we could grow bent if we wanted to…torture ourselves, but greens that size are double to triple the size you’d find on a normal course and bent would be incredibly expensive and time consuming to maintain. I think the grass on the greens will end up being one of the new improved Bermuda varieties and I believe that choice will work well. These are Mac greens after all; huge Mac greens and I pray that someday I get to watch DeVries shape ‘em up. The new Bermudas will give the member all the challenge he could ever want and still allow us to keep them in great shape 12 months a year without exorbitant expense.
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The slurping sound is my mouth watering!
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Mike, am I recalling correctly that the El Boqueron plan didn't have a ton of fairway bunkers but would use native vegetation instead?
What are you planning to do in Texas?
The dry wash sounds very exciting and interestng and could add some George Thomas elements from Riviera and LACC as well as the Mackenzie design. The dry wash with diagonal carries creates great strategic elements. Both Pasatiempo and the Valley Club have barrancas and creeks in play. This all sounds too exciting!
Bill,
Correct, only 14 bunkers total on the site and all are around the green complexes. There will be some wide fairways and the angle of attack is going to be paramount, especially with Don having the ball bounce the way it should. The cedars in TX are similar in size and shape to the curros, just not as thorny (curros is like a natural razor-wire, it is that nasty!), so we can use it in places to replicate the curros. The dry wash will be a natural hazard and something that MacK would definitely use, just like you mention at Pasa and VC.
Best,
Mike
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Mac,
There are many things worth considering in your post and I look forward to talking with you about them sometime.
One of the things that is difficult in this situation, and day and age, is saying you are going to build one hole and then build from there. In Texas and many other places, irrigation is critical and needs to be planned out for the entire course -- that takes money to design and implement the beginnings of an irrigation system because in most cases you will build a pumphouse, often a reservoir to pump from, and that early infrastructure is the bigger pipe coming out from the pumphouse, . . . Not saying it can't be done in some circumstances, but the early holes would be considerably more expensive than the latter holes in almost every case. To sell a whole course on one or two holes, you have to have a perfect product today, as the buyers are very fickle, especially when there are options out there.
That being said, we have looked at how we can phase the construction so there are 4-5 holes seeded at a time, thus giving the prospective member a glimpse of the greatness ahead. I think that will help bring along some of the tire-kickers during construction but we will still need a good core group to start.
Many thanks for your thoughts,
Mike
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Mac and Mike
Mackenzie designed and built just one hole at Moortown - the famed 'Gibraltar' hole - as a sampler to try and get more people interested in committing to the project. In their case it worked. Today, for the reasons Mike elucidated, it is much more difficult. But not impossible of course.
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Mac,
There are many things worth considering in your post and I look forward to talking with you about them sometime.
One of the things that is difficult in this situation, and day and age, is saying you are going to build one hole and then build from there. In Texas and many other places, irrigation is critical and needs to be planned out for the entire course -- that takes money to design and implement the beginnings of an irrigation system because in most cases you will build a pumphouse, often a reservoir to pump from, and that early infrastructure is the bigger pipe coming out from the pumphouse, . . . Not saying it can't be done in some circumstances, but the early holes would be considerably more expensive than the latter holes in almost every case. To sell a whole course on one or two holes, you have to have a perfect product today, as the buyers are very fickle, especially when there are options out there.
That being said, we have looked at how we can phase the construction so there are 4-5 holes seeded at a time, thus giving the prospective member a glimpse of the greatness ahead. I think that will help bring along some of the tire-kickers during construction but we will still need a good core group to start.
Many thanks for your thoughts,
Mike
This might not be the case with Joe Hancock and Don Mahaffey as the construction team, but one of the major items on construction company estimates and invoices is "MOBILIZATION." This is the cost line item assigned to moving equipment to the site, initial set up, equipment rental and insurance. One thing you want to avoid as general contractor (like me) or the client (like the owner of El Boqueron) is the dreaded "REMOBILIZATION." That's what happens if the site contractor is forced to pull off and come back later.
lIf you had to do that four or five times it would be bad enough, but 18 times. OMG!! So that option could be expensive if not managed properly.
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David, Mike, Joe et al,
This is hands down one of the most exciting projects in the pipeline...period. Simply wishing you good luck wouldn't begin to sum up how much I hope this thing comes to fruition.
David:
I don't know how "exotic" you're willing to go with financing/capital sources, but here is a link to a past GCA thread that I think you should at least take a quick spin through:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33827.0/
Not everything in there is applicable (maybe not anything!), but I think there are some good "outside the box" ideas for getting a golf course off the ground. It appears a decent chunk of start-up capital could be obtained from a relatively small group of GCA.com contributors (there was certainly a lot of interest in the thread above!) in exchange for fairly minimal national membership-like privileges, especially considering that the majority would be coming from far away. This could provide enough gun powder to get the course built and operational so that "full" member prospects could be brought in and hopefully signed on (with higher initiation/dues to cover operating expenses and correspondingly higher member privileges).
This is probably wishful thinking, but I thought I would throw it out there!
Idea #2: Get Mike Keiser involved.
I'll be following the progress of El Boqueron with bated breath.
Best,
George
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Mac,
There are many things worth considering in your post and I look forward to talking with you about them sometime.
One of the things that is difficult in this situation, and day and age, is saying you are going to build one hole and then build from there. In Texas and many other places, irrigation is critical and needs to be planned out for the entire course -- that takes money to design and implement the beginnings of an irrigation system because in most cases you will build a pumphouse, often a reservoir to pump from, and that early infrastructure is the bigger pipe coming out from the pumphouse, . . . Not saying it can't be done in some circumstances, but the early holes would be considerably more expensive than the latter holes in almost every case. To sell a whole course on one or two holes, you have to have a perfect product today, as the buyers are very fickle, especially when there are options out there.
That being said, we have looked at how we can phase the construction so there are 4-5 holes seeded at a time, thus giving the prospective member a glimpse of the greatness ahead. I think that will help bring along some of the tire-kickers during construction but we will still need a good core group to start.
Many thanks for your thoughts,
Mike
This might not be the case with Joe Hancock and Don Mahaffey as the construction team, but one of the major items on construction company estimates and invoices is "MOBILIZATION." This is the cost line item assigned to moving equipment to the site, initial set up, equipment rental and insurance. One thing you want to avoid as general contractor (like me) or the client (like the owner of El Boqueron) is the dreaded "REMOBILIZATION." That's what happens if the site contractor is forced to pull off and come back later.
lIf you had to do that four or five times it would be bad enough, but 18 times. OMG!! So that option could be expensive if not managed properly.
Bill,
You're right, often MOBILIZATION is a sizable sum in the budget. It comes, usually, from hiring a construction company that owns and brings all the equipment, brings in the entire labor force(housing, communications, etc.), etc. Our methodology is to do the work with familiar, highly talented individuals for the critical feature and finishing and also hire from the local labor pool(a sustainability thing, if you will) for support labor positions. We train them to do things as we want it done, and many times some of that construction crew stays behind to maintain things.....they understand what we worked hard to create, so they are able to take care of the place.
We rent the machines we need(there's a lot of equipment sitting idle right now), find a way to re-fuel and do regular maintenance without the high overhead often associated with that whole MOBILIZATION line.......our goal is to make sure as much of the costs associated with the construction actually end up being a tangible part of the project, not a black hole that requires a larger line of credit at the bank.
Joe
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Mac,
There are many things worth considering in your post and I look forward to talking with you about them sometime.
One of the things that is difficult in this situation, and day and age, is saying you are going to build one hole and then build from there. In Texas and many other places, irrigation is critical and needs to be planned out for the entire course -- that takes money to design and implement the beginnings of an irrigation system because in most cases you will build a pumphouse, often a reservoir to pump from, and that early infrastructure is the bigger pipe coming out from the pumphouse, . . . Not saying it can't be done in some circumstances, but the early holes would be considerably more expensive than the latter holes in almost every case. To sell a whole course on one or two holes, you have to have a perfect product today, as the buyers are very fickle, especially when there are options out there.
That being said, we have looked at how we can phase the construction so there are 4-5 holes seeded at a time, thus giving the prospective member a glimpse of the greatness ahead. I think that will help bring along some of the tire-kickers during construction but we will still need a good core group to start.
Many thanks for your thoughts,
Mike
This might not be the case with Joe Hancock and Don Mahaffey as the construction team, but one of the major items on construction company estimates and invoices is "MOBILIZATION." This is the cost line item assigned to moving equipment to the site, initial set up, equipment rental and insurance. One thing you want to avoid as general contractor (like me) or the client (like the owner of El Boqueron) is the dreaded "REMOBILIZATION." That's what happens if the site contractor is forced to pull off and come back later.
lIf you had to do that four or five times it would be bad enough, but 18 times. OMG!! So that option could be expensive if not managed properly.
Bill,
You're right, often MOBILIZATION is a sizable sum in the budget. It comes, usually, from hiring a construction company that owns and brings all the equipment, brings in the entire labor force(housing, communications, etc.), etc. Our methodology is to do the work with familiar, highly talented individuals for the critical feature and finishing and also hire from the local labor pool(a sustainability thing, if you will) for support labor positions. We train them to do things as we want it done, and many times some of that construction crew stays behind to maintain things.....they understand what we worked hard to create, so they are able to take care of the place.
We rent the machines we need(there's a lot of equipment sitting idle right now), find a way to re-fuel and do regular maintenance without the high overhead often associated with that whole MOBILIZATION line.......our goal is to make sure as much of the costs associated with the construction actually end up being a tangible part of the project, not a black hole that requires a larger line of credit at the bank.
Joe
That's why I mentioned you and Don right up front! l really believe you guys are right on the cutting edge of the best way to build a course today. I saw the proof at Wolf Point - not a hint the PROOF!
I was mentioning "mobilization" just as it related to starting and stopping and restarting........could be a huge drain on a project.... unless it's handled your way. ;)
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Another issue has a lot to do with education. Members of this site are fully aware of the significance of an authentic Mackenzie plan that was never developed, but most people have little knowledge of the Good Doctor, only recognizing the fame of some of his designs. It takes time to get people to understand who Mackenzie was and the potential value of this project.
What does everyone think about some of the things David asks, especially the section above? Does the general (golfing) public even have an idea of who or what MacKenzie represents? How do we educate a broader spectrum about the importance of what this course is? Is it as significant as finding a Picasso, Monet, or Rembrandt in the attic?
Looking forward to hearing thoughts on these subjects!
Mike
Mike,
Firstly, Merry Christmas to you and your family. I hope we get another chance to play in 2010; though don't expect to be getting any strokes again. ;)
I think a good number of golfers know who MacKenzie is though I think a large part of the reason why, perhaps, not as many people know about him as should is based on the fact that other than Pasa, (I think) all of his other US work is EXTREMELY private. Also, the Alister MacKenzie Society is not open to anyone interested in his work, but rather, only those courses designed by him and their members.
Therefore, although El Boqueron is going to be private, I think that having a library/archive dedicated to MacKenzie, coupled with a open society the likes of Ross or Tilly, etc. would do wonders to further the reputation of the good doctor and give him the widespread credit he is due. The funds from the society could help fund the library/archive, which could be very expensive to establish.
That all being said, if it hasn't been done, I would hope that reaching out to the Alister MacKenzie Society (and the members of the clubs) would be a great resource in developing/marketing this club. Perhaps a presentation of the history, the routing and the project to each of the clubs (and hopefully a lot of members would show up to see it) could yield enough interest/investment to make the project happen.
I've also sent a corresponding PM.
Thanks
Jason
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Thanks to all for the comments and ideas, especially to George for referencing the old thread. It would be interesting how many GCA guys would actually commit $ to the project if we developed some type of avenue for that type of membership. Does an initiation fee of $X, with no equity, and $Y annual dues work for Z days of play? What is reasonable for someone to spend on X and Y to get Z -- for golf lovers (GCA-types) there has to be value in such an investment, while a businessman / banker is just looking at ROI. Do you go after both, just one type, or other alternatives? Developing a solid business model would require enough capital to fund the project, market it, and run it to be first-rate and the organization of such a plan will crucial -- Mac brought up many of those points in his thread.
This is great stuff and keep any ideas coming!
Mike
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Mike (Happy Holidays and I hope all is well!),
I wouldn't imagine many GCA.comers potentially interested in a plan like the one we're discussing would be too worried about return on investment, at least not from a fiscal perspective. However, the cost still has to be economical enough to 1) entice a large group and 2) make it justifiable as just a cost of being part of something as special the El Boqueron project sounds like it is going to be. There are plenty of courses around the country where you can spend $50k for initiation and $5-6k annually on dues as a "national" member and after reading through the entire "GCA.com golf course" thread, I don't think anything close to that would work. Remember, what I was proposing is that this group would not make up the core membership group for the club (with their larger initiations and dues), but instead give the project a nice capital infusion to get it off the ground in return for limited national member-like privileges.
Instead of asking "what is reasonable for someone to spend on X and Y to get Z", it might make sense to work backwards. By that I mean get a ball park figure of what it will take to move this project forward and what the proposed "privileges" would be for this initial group. Once you have that, you can begin to get a much clearer picture on what the costs will be for X number of people or Y number of people, etc. From there you can get into the specifics of the funding, etc, etc.
Like Mike said, keep the ideas coming. There was a TON of interest in that GCA.com golf course thread and I would love to see it resurrected in a similar sense for El Boqueron.
George
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i would be very interested in such a project and know of of least five other guys who would be...
This project is so exciting and so original in concept...Mike at the helm makes it even more so.
Keep the ideas forthcoming so that this dream can become a reality.
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The grassing plan is driven by environmental conditions, soil structure, water quality and availability. This part of the world is basically considered warm season grass country, at least thru the green, and the soil and water testing we did confirmed we could maintain a very high quality sward of dwarf Bermuda golfing turf. We found ample deposits of high quality top soil and located a sand source, for, greens, surrounds, tees, and capping if needed, nearby.
The greens are huge. Nine double greens that, on paper, are between eight and nine acres in size. Our water quality is good, so we could grow bent if we wanted to…torture ourselves, but greens that size are double to triple the size you’d find on a normal course and bent would be incredibly expensive and time consuming to maintain. I think the grass on the greens will end up being one of the new improved Bermuda varieties and I believe that choice will work well. These are Mac greens after all; huge Mac greens and I pray that someday I get to watch DeVries shape ‘em up. The new Bermudas will give the member all the challenge he could ever want and still allow us to keep them in great shape 12 months a year without exorbitant expense.
Firstly, this is a point to be marketed. Sure--the environment and all that--but the need for the course to move forward is money. I am sure this is being worked at, but an critical key is emphasizing to the investors and lenders the low cost of maintenance associated with this project (the original plans with its double greens and few bunkers was driven by the estate nature of the course, i.e. no external revenue and a need for financially efficient maintenance, correct?) as well as the construction methods employed by DeVries and co., which Joe just described a few replies ago.
Some other points:
-As far as marketing goes, the need may not be as great as it would be if this were a daily fee. This is the type of project that attracts a highly devoted niche clientele of architecture geeks. The need to expand the thinking and education of the Good Doctor and his real value to the general public is not only impossible and impractical (within a short time frame, mind you) but also may not be necessary for this instance. I think gca.com is a powerful tool, and these days the best way to rally a cause to a mass cause is the fastest way--the internet. I think if we can get architectural sites and blogs informed and involved, that is great. But what would be much greater yet is branching out to related groups and sites, say perhaps maintenance related. A lot of greenkeepers and supers do what they do because they liked golf to start out with, and i know a few who have a good appreciation for the architectural side of things. I think furthering the education of these types is the first step in reaching to the public as a whole, setting off a chain reaction as education and appreciation for design slowly grows. Also, what about the magazines? Might we be able to get any of them to write about this? I think so. This kind of story is just plain interesting even if you aren't a golfer. Even my girlfriend wrote a wikipedia article about El Boqueron for a class, and her interest in the game is marginal, having only ever played a few holes. (No, it isn't posted; it was just a hypothetical for a class) There is a lot of potential interest and buzz that could be created for this project, and that already shown here is just the beginning.
-I would assume a target number for the building of the complex as well as future maintenance has been established. Next is proof that this number can be safely accounted for and returned to the investors/lenders. The question is how much will this be a national club versus local. More national means higher numbers but lower initiation/dues, and local means lower numbers but higher initiation/dues. I think with this day and age especially with the internet, better awareness could be made to create a large national club with lower dues. What about tiering the memberships, perhaps with limited play options for those coming from far away?
-In an effort to convince the lenders and investors, what about highlighting a number of successful case examples of recent projects similar to this one? I do not know the financial background of the clubs I am thinking of, but they seem to be doing fine even considering the economic climate. I consider this an advantage of a passionate niche like golf architecture. You see this with the NHL. The tv numbers are low, but attendance and revenue rarely fluctuates, even after the potentially crippling lockout. This is because the followers of the game are few but a very passionate few.
-Augusta National. The conceptions of the two courses are quite similar--wide open and undistinguished playing corridors, few but meaningful bunkers, large and wildly undulating greens, a southern climate, and a focus on the ground game. This could be a chance to create something like what Augusta was truly intended to be, and that might be a good selling point.
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Mike,
I think Kingsley's national membership is an excellent model that could attract a significant national membership that could help supplement the local equity members. It's tough to get a bunch of guys to put up a big downstroke these days but a lot of guys would probably be willing to commit a few grand a year for a non-resident membership. A couple trips a year for some events and golf with friends easily justifies that. Just my 2 cents.
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The MacKenzie plans have been described in a recent edition of Golf Australia magazine.
Fair to say most in Australia had no isea of MacKenzie's lost plans.
Any word on how the project is going currently?
MM
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The MacKenzie plans have been described in a recent edition of Golf Australia magazine.
Fair to say most in Australia had no isea of MacKenzie's lost plans.
Any word on how the project is going currently?
MM
Matthew,
The intention is to still do the project in Austin, TX on the site that was selected a year or so ago. However, the original group that was the main financial backing has had some hiccups and so it is in a "wait" mode at the moment. Efforts to find the right financial group, whether that is the original group or a another group, are happening at this time. If someone has an interest or knows someone who might, please contact me or David Edel.
I haven't seen the article -- is it available online or can someone fax/email a copy of it? Thanks.
Best,
Mike
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Thanks Mike.
Sad to hear that it's stalled a little.
The article was written by Rod Morri, and was featured within the latest edition of Golf Australia magazine.
I'll mail you a hard copy.
Matthew
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To me the Austin location would make El Boqueron attractive to the crowd that treks to Bandon and Ballyneal and Kingsley and soon to Cabot Links. Austin is a whole lot more accessible than any of those locations.
And the marketing potential for a course built by Mike DeVries from the "lost plans of Doctor Mackenzie." Holy cow!
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Thanks Mike.
Sad to hear that it's stalled a little.
The article was written by Rod Morri, and was featured within the latest edition of Golf Australia magazine.
I'll mail you a hard copy.
Matthew
Matthew,
Thanks, I appreciate that. I talked with Rod this summer by phone but hadn't heard about the article yet. I look forward to seeing it.
Cheers,
Mike
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To me the Austin location would make El Boqueron attractive to the crowd that treks to Bandon and Ballyneal and Kingsley and soon to Cabot Links. Austin is a whole lot more accessible than any of those locations.
And the marketing potential for a course built by Mike DeVries from the "lost plans of Doctor Mackenzie." Holy cow!
Bill,
Thanks for the compliments. El Boqueron is slated to be a private club but David also has Roberto DeVicenzo's trophies and memorabilia that will be displayed in a museum at the club, along with other MacKenzie materials and the hope is that will serve as a way to share and provide historical information on the two great men. Bringing it all together is the connection to Argentina, where the course was to be originally and the horse and cattle culture of Argentina and Texas is a very good fit for the club.
Best,
Mike
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To me the Austin location would make El Boqueron attractive to the crowd that treks to Bandon and Ballyneal and Kingsley and soon to Cabot Links. Austin is a whole lot more accessible than any of those locations.
And the marketing potential for a course built by Mike DeVries from the "lost plans of Doctor Mackenzie." Holy cow!
Bill,
Thanks for the compliments. El Boqueron is slated to be a private club but David also has Roberto DeVicenzo's trophies and memorabilia that will be displayed in a museum at the club, along with other MacKenzie materials and the hope is that will serve as a way to share and provide historical information on the two great men. Bringing it all together is the connection to Argentina, where the course was to be originally and the horse and cattle culture of Argentina and Texas is a very good fit for the club.
Best,
Mike
I hope David considers some limited access as the private membership builds. It's a model that I think has worked for Kingsley and Ballyneal.
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Mike D and I have talked about thsi project on and off...
it seems to me as well that the location, the game , the concept and all that Texas money should have made this happen by now.
I have tried to involve some of my deep pocket golfing friends in the project..but money is even "tight" for them at this time.
The site and concept are mindboggling and with the likes of David and Mike at the forefront of the project when it happens...awesome!
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Wondering whatever happened to this fascinating project in Texas?
Also wondering what the photo of the 2nd hole at the E-B Arg estate course, the Dentone course, that Alfonso mentions looks like. Anyone able to post a copy or provide a link?
atb
PS - Interesting that MacKenzie's routing sketch for the 9-green El Boqueron course in Argentina looks like it's playable in reverse to make 18.
(https://moegolf.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/el-boqueron.jpg?w=300&h=189)
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I had a long telephone conversation with David Edel many years ago about this unique project. With Mike Devries on board, it had a lot of potential, though as soon as David revealed the cost of the land, I knew it was a very long shot.
As far as I know, the option to develop the concept has long expired. But even if the rights reverted to the Argentinian owner, I don't know how he could protect the drawing from someone adapting something similar to a site. (The litigation involving Tour 18 might have some relevance, but I don't know what MacKenzie holes are unique and specific enough to claim trade dress). As I recall, Mike's plans varied from the drawing, sometimes considerably, and in flow and order of the holes.
This project might work with a client like the one Mike Nuzzo and Don Mahaffey built Wolf Point for. But as a commercial venture close to a large population center, I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Also wondering what the photo of the 2nd hole at the E-B Arg estate course, the Dentone course, that Alfonso mentions looks like. Anyone able to post a copy or provide a link?
What course are you referring to? The famous Dentone course is Mar del Plata Golf Course, a links.
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Were they in possession or more detailed plans or is that drawing it?
And does anyone know the exact plot of land the the plans were made for in S.A.? I'm just curious if it is potentially able to be rendered digitally to bring some life to it if real life projects are unlikely to happen.
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Were they in possession or more detailed plans or is that drawing it?
And does anyone know the exact plot of land the the plans were made for in S.A.? I'm just curious if it is potentially able to be rendered digitally to bring some life to it if real life projects are unlikely to happen.
Peter,
If in fact El Boqueron was drawn for a private estate or rather ranch (Estancia translates to ranch) in Buenos Aires, i can walk you through the topo... grab a white blank A4 sheet and you have it. No elevation change whatsoever. All black topsoil.
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Also wondering what the photo of the 2nd hole at the E-B Arg estate course, the Dentone course, that Alfonso mentions looks like. Anyone able to post a copy or provide a link?
What course are you referring to? The famous Dentone course is Mar del Plata Golf Course, a links.
MC,
I’ve read somewhere that there was a course at the El-B estancia prior to Mackenzie's visit and that it was laid out by Dentone and maybe later revised by him. Presumably as MacKenzie’s plan was never implemented it is this original El-B course that is the one pictured in the 1940 2nd green photo that Alfonso mentions in Reply 4 above.
There’s quite a bit of information in this piece although much is repeated in various replies above - https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf)
I’ve tried via Satmaps, without success, to determine the exact location of the original El-B course and the original estancia golf Clubhouse. I’ve read that the original Clubhouse is now used to provide accommodation for the horse enthusiasts and polo playing holiday makers who these days visit the estancia.
Here’s El-B’s general location - https://www.google.com/maps/@-38.0261009,-57.8009393,15z/data=!3m1!1e3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@-38.0261009,-57.8009393,15z/data=!3m1!1e3)
Atb
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Sorry, I misunderstood.
If I recall correctly Estancia El Boqueron was a private ranch, i doubt any club house existed. More likely just a large ranch house as was and is typical of the Argentine Pampas. The golf courses in these ranches were sometimes built in the gardens of the Estancia. A photo follows of El Boqueron.
(https://i.imgur.com/aZSImDb.jpg)
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This is the land today. The article states the 9 hole golf course was designed by Makenzie was in the middle of the gardens next to the house. But the source does not seem reliable. For example I see discrepancies on who designed and built the gardens. I thought and have read it was the famous Carlos Thays and this article refers to Hermann Botrich. So 2 different landscape planners and 2 different golf designers are credited to this land.
(https://i.imgur.com/mFc0GQB.png)
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This is the land today. The article states the 9 hole golf course was designed by Makenzie was in the middle of the gardens next to the house. But the source does not seem reliable. For example I see discrepancies on who designed and built the gardens. I thought and have read it was the famous Carlos Thays and this article refers to Hermann Botrich. So 2 different landscape planners and 2 different golf designers are credited to this land.
(https://i.imgur.com/mFc0GQB.png)
That is the original manor house to El Boqueron. The golf course was not next to that structure but nearby on the estancia (very large - 1000's of acres) and there was a small cottage that was used as the "clubhouse" - think of it as a 2-3 bedroom cottage with a covered front porch.
MacKenzie designed the course on the land there, a hillside that went down to a crease in the land and then back up, with long distance views of hills. The site was NOT flat pampas ground. Dentone came in afterwards and built nine holes in the same area, but it wasn't MacKenzie's routing or course. That nine holes was played by Argentine pros and others when in the area - Henry Cotton, Roberto deVicenzo, and others - Roberto used to say it was difficult . . . maybe Dentone wanted his fellow pros to hurt a little? But it was mainly used by the Anchorena family and friends when they were on the estate and the course was maintained for 20-30 years. Today the cottage is still there and in good condition, the landscape has field grasses, some row crops, and patches of curros still on site (these are a nasty, spiny plant that you could liken to gorse, only more like razor wire, with like blady spines on the branches).
It is a very cool place.
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This is the land today. The article states the 9 hole golf course was designed by Makenzie was in the middle of the gardens next to the house. But the source does not seem reliable. For example I see discrepancies on who designed and built the gardens. I thought and have read it was the famous Carlos Thays and this article refers to Hermann Botrich. So 2 different landscape planners and 2 different golf designers are credited to this land.
(https://i.imgur.com/mFc0GQB.png)
MC,
Could i get a copy of the article? Looks very cool. Message me or whatever is easiest.
Thanks!
Mike
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Mike,
You are right that this is not flatland. This land is somewhat apart from where the google map coordinates point and it is next to Sierra de los Padres, a small mountain/hill range close to Mar del Plata.
I will search for the article again and send it to you, but it is mostly gossip and the reference to Mackenzie is wrong. This is like an Hola Magazine from Spain.
Marcos
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MC,
There is a photo of the 'clubhouse' in the Tom Dunne article I linked above -- [/size]https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf)[/font][/size]
There are some also articles on the web about the horse and polo facility that is now on the site.
Here are the references. The articles are essentially touristy type pieces, more about horses and polo, but they do include some golf references -
https://www.ft.com/content/eef30598-52ac-11e8-84f4-43d65af59d43 (https://www.ft.com/content/eef30598-52ac-11e8-84f4-43d65af59d43)
and
https://www.plansouthamerica.com/estancia-el-boqueron-argentina/ (https://www.plansouthamerica.com/estancia-el-boqueron-argentina/)
Mike, do you have a copy of Alfonso's 1940 2nd green photo?
atb
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MC,
There is a photo of the 'clubhouse' in the Tom Dunne article I linked above -- https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf)
Mike, do you have a copy of Alfonso's 1940 2nd green photo?
No, I don't have the photo.
Yes, that is the "clubhouse" in Tom Dunne's article.
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This is the land today. The article states the 9 hole golf course was designed by Makenzie was in the middle of the gardens next to the house. But the source does not seem reliable. For example I see discrepancies on who designed and built the gardens. I thought and have read it was the famous Carlos Thays and this article refers to Hermann Botrich. So 2 different landscape planners and 2 different golf designers are credited to this land.
(https://i.imgur.com/mFc0GQB.png)
I think Pinky must be Jaime's daughter. Jaime has the original MacKenzie plan and is the one who has an agreement with David Edel for it. Jaime is a very nice man - a pure gentleman, very gracious, and humble. I was fortunate to visit El Boqueron with him and experience a real Argentine asado there.
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MC,
There is a photo of the 'clubhouse' in the Tom Dunne article I linked above -- https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57feba89197aea1c0b978f32/t/58755241d2b857aea5260f35/1484083781565/TL_article_Lost_MacKenzie_Nov-Dec2009.pdf)
There are some also articles on the web about the horse and polo facility that is now on the site.
Here are the references. The articles are essentially touristy type pieces, more about horses and polo, but they do include some golf references -
https://www.ft.com/content/eef30598-52ac-11e8-84f4-43d65af59d43 (https://www.ft.com/content/eef30598-52ac-11e8-84f4-43d65af59d43)
and
https://www.plansouthamerica.com/estancia-el-boqueron-argentina/ (https://www.plansouthamerica.com/estancia-el-boqueron-argentina/)
Mike, do you have a copy of Alfonso's 1940 2nd green photo?
atb
Comparing your last link to the article I am linking below, you get the impression that the name El Boqueron stayed with a different part of the property than the one that contained the golf course. This other article explains the property got divided in several parts, and the original gardens and golf course are part of an Estancia called La Ferme, I believe. And the owners of both properties are different.
https://studylib.es/doc/6902663/el-boqueron-pinky-zuberbuhler-y-pedro-hunter (https://studylib.es/doc/6902663/el-boqueron-pinky-zuberbuhler-y-pedro-hunter)
MC
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Thanks MC and MdV.
MC see my PM.
Atb
Later edit - here is a link that if you click on it and scroll down quite a ways has a map of the location of the El-B estate - http://fotosviejasdemardelplata.blogspot.com/2013/09/estancia-el-boqueron.html (http://fotosviejasdemardelplata.blogspot.com/2013/09/estancia-el-boqueron.html) - the piece is in Spanish but seems to contain quote a few references to golf.
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Edited- I just answered a few of my questions with a re-read of that article.
Can someone point me to the coordinates of that remaining clubhouse that they show? If that is the one in the plan, then it might be possible to figure out the scale of the drawing and place it over the land digitally.
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Here is a preliminary theory for the course footprint. I could be way off base, but I'll explain my rationale and see if anyone can support it or poke holes in it.
I couldn't find any buildings on the estate that looked like the clubhouse until I wound back the clock to prior years and saw a building in the trees that looks like the one in the articles where the plans hung above the mantle (the trees were thinner and/or light was different in some aerials). It has a little blue 1 next to it below. If this is right, then the picture of the house was from the entrance and the course would have been on the other side of it.
To get the scale right, I looked for other clues. The gorse patch that has a very flat topside (I have a blue #2 next to it) seemed like it signified some sort of boundary. There is a road/ driveway that seems to correspond with it and I lined up the image so that the gorse border is exactly along this road. The last datapoint that I used to get the possible scale was the way that the 17th hole doglegs. Notice how there is a field there and it looks like the El Boqueron property ends. I guess that this is the reason for the dogleg and I stretched the image so that it avoided the neighbor's property, but still gave the hole a reasonable amount of width.
(https://i.ibb.co/NLHBfMR/El-Boqueron-overlay.jpg)
No idea if this is right, but when I fly around the course and look at the elevations and the way that the holes bend, it all seems to make sense. i.e. there is nothing too awkward. The short 15th is a par 4 that plays steeply uphill for instance, which would explain it's length.
But I think this theory contradicts the existing one that the property was all on a big downslope away from the clubhouse. In this version, the clubhouse is one of the lowest points.
Here is a zoomed in view of the building that I think looks like the clubhouse: The roof, the chimney, and the color are what led me to believe that this might be it. This building measures about 45 feet across, which seems like the right scale.
(https://i.ibb.co/88kx3FG/El-Boqueron-clubhouse-snip.jpg)
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With the placement of the routing that I posted above, here would be the yardages. I measured the longer route if he had 2 routes on the drawing.
1) 315. -38 ft
2) 383 -15
3) 340 -3
4) 219 -43
5) 157 -12
6) 318 +3
7) 164 +5
8. 387 +27
9) 436 -89
10) 391 +78 (notice how far this tee is from the 9th green. It's 94 yards away, but it cuts off 26 extra feet of climb. Most of the tees look like they seek high ground under this theory)
11) 366 -26
12) 167 -22
13) 371 -15
14) 177 -4
15) 253 +56
16) 272 -86
17) 427 -8
18) 342 +24
TOTAL: 5,094 yards. -168 feet elevation change (because of the location of the tees). 5 par 3s. Par 67 if no par 5s. 8, 9, and 17 look like they could play like par 5s. If that were the case, par 70.
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Peter nice work. BTW how is the Lido virtual build coming?
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Here is a preliminary theory for the course footprint. I could be way off base, but I'll explain my rationale and see if anyone can support it or poke holes in it.
I couldn't find any buildings on the estate that looked like the clubhouse until I wound back the clock to prior years and saw a building in the trees that looks like the one in the articles where the plans hung above the mantle (the trees were thinner and/or light was different in some aerials). It has a little blue 1 next to it below. If this is right, then the picture of the house was from the entrance and the course would have been on the other side of it.
To get the scale right, I looked for other clues. The gorse patch that has a very flat topside (I have a blue #2 next to it) seemed like it signified some sort of boundary. There is a road/ driveway that seems to correspond with it and I lined up the image so that the gorse border is exactly along this road. The last datapoint that I used to get the possible scale was the way that the 17th hole doglegs. Notice how there is a field there and it looks like the El Boqueron property ends. I guess that this is the reason for the dogleg and I stretched the image so that it avoided the neighbor's property, but still gave the hole a reasonable amount of width.
(https://i.ibb.co/NLHBfMR/El-Boqueron-overlay.jpg)
No idea if this is right, but when I fly around the course and look at the elevations and the way that the holes bend, it all seems to make sense. i.e. there is nothing too awkward. The short 15th is a par 4 that plays steeply uphill for instance, which would explain it's length.
But I think this theory contradicts the existing one that the property was all on a big downslope away from the clubhouse. In this version, the clubhouse is one of the lowest points.
Here is a zoomed in view of the building that I think looks like the clubhouse: The roof, the chimney, and the color are what led me to believe that this might be it. This building measures about 45 feet across, which seems like the right scale.
(https://i.ibb.co/88kx3FG/El-Boqueron-clubhouse-snip.jpg)
Peter,
The golf course didn't come close to the big manor house nor have a view of it. I am not sure if you have the correct building - it might actually be the one closer to the edge of the clearing, just south of the riding/cattle ring. And if that is the correct building, the golf course would go to the west from there, as there is still considerable open fields of grass and probably soybeans, as well as some pockets of curros, but nearly as much as would have been there 80+ years ago.
The key is the house and it is hard to tell from GE.
Cheers,
Mike
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Peter nice work. BTW how is the Lido virtual build coming?
I'm recalculating based on Mike's comments. Have some other theories.
Re: Lido- it is coming along. I basically have 3 holes remaining to do (11, 15, and 50% on 12 and 13). The end is in sight. Just have been really busy with other things over the last year.
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Hopefully I'm not clogging up this thread with wild (and incorrect) theories, but here is another one that I'm talking myself into.
(https://i.ibb.co/0j2BTpb/El-Boqueron-routing-theory-2.jpg)
Reasons why I like this one:
- It fits nicely in the boundaries of a field/ pasture that isn't forested.
- The building that could have been the planned clubhouse fits perfectly in the rectangle that Mackenzie drew... however, it looks like that is only because they expanded that building in 2011. Before that, it only took up half of the rectangle... because it might have been the house in those articles. I'll put a picture of it below.
- It looks like there is also a structure in the exact spot where there was the mystery building on the routing (blue square in the middle of the pic), although it is obscured. There are smaller structures visible around it in certain aerials.
- The drawing seems square to the bottom property line and the boundaries of the field- so it is a logical orientation to draw it.
- The 9th hole dogs nicely with the edge of the plot
- The 9th hole and especially the 10th hole are arranged so that tee shots would carry the road. The 10th tee is really quite a ways from the 9th green, so maybe that is the reason? Also, 1 and 18 both easily carry the road. I am surmising that the road was there when Mackenzie drew the plans because of that internal building. So, not only does this footprint have the internal structure and forest around it, but the access roads to it avoid greens and tees nicely.
- the doglegs seem more naturally tilted in this solution than the last one that I posted. 9 has a gentle bank to it for instance.
With this footprint, the 18th hole is 330 yards and the 9th is about 400 yards.
Here is a more zoomed out image to give orientation:
(https://i.ibb.co/dB4wnCH/El-Boqueron-theory-2-zoomed-out.jpg)
Original building that was in the location site for this theory. At or around 2011, it looks like they significantly added on to this structure. In that case, the original portion is still there, just a part of a bigger building.
Notice the dormer on the roof. I think that matches the photo of the clubhouse where the plans were stored. There is a nice yard there and room for the photographer to stand to take the pic from the top of this photo back toward the house.
(https://i.ibb.co/McNn8Gv/El-Boqueron-original-clubhouse-theory-knocked-down.jpg)
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I reckon you’re probably on to something with your second version Peter.
In the Tom Dunne article there is reference to the 14th hole playing into a quartering left-to-right wind. From some web checking it seems that the prevailing wind is NNE. If you orientate your overlaid MacK’ plan to the standard N-S-E-W points of the compass then the 14th appears angled to play as described by Tom Dunne (and David Edel).
Also, there are some thin straight lines on Mack’s plan that don’t correspond to his holes but they seem to closely resemble markings that are visible on the ground/googleearth.
Well done.
Atb
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Yeah, the more that I look at this building, the more I think that it is the clubhouse.
2011 version of the house
Dormer, concrete railings in front, etc.
(https://i.ibb.co/xSQ6Mhw/El-Boqueron-clubhouse-2011.jpg)
Image from 2017- well after the additions were put on
(https://i.ibb.co/GnNTfnq/El-Boqueron-clubhouse-2012.jpg)
Check out how the bushes and the brick/ concrete railings match. I think the above also has shadows where the benches are. On the above, you can also see a shadow where the chimney is.
(https://i.ibb.co/xs18S1H/IMG-4204.jpg)
I think that we got it. Google Earth archaeology...
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I think you have it. Good work. This is away from the original location posted here and more into the foothills of Sierra de los Padres. It does have a gentle slope.
Think about getting this course built here, close to Mar del Plata Golf Club. Would be a nice golf destination.
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It looks like a total elevation change from the clubhouse to the 3rd tee of about 120 feet (clubhouse is high and 3rd tee is low).
I adjusted the overlay just slightly to get to the original aspect ratio of Mackenzie's drawing. I had the original a fraction too tall for the given width. With the corrected aspect ratio, the 8th/ 10th green sits just below a rounded boundary in the field. It looks logical the way that it sits now. That field above it was probably someone else's or was put to use somehow and Mackenzie routed around it.
(https://i.ibb.co/NtF44fC/8th-10th-greensite.jpg)
Calculations for hole lengths and elevation changes:
1) 307 -19
2) 347 -60
3) 324 +26
4) 214 -13
5) 136 +25
6) 307 +15
7) 157 -4
8. 369 +8
9) 385 +41
2,546
10) 359 -33
11) 352 +4
12) 155 +14
13) 366 -20
14) 153 -30
15) 244 +10
16) 270 -17
17) 376 +68
18) 331 +19
2,606
TOT 5,152, Par 67
There looks like lots of room for lengthening if so desired.
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Very glad I bumped this old thread.
It highlights nicely how modern technology if coupled appropriately with research can enhance the way history is recorded and information shared.
And El-B is a reversible course. Presumably an idea that MacKenzie had been mulling over for some time while waiting for a site where such a layout would work.
Atb
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Dai just sent me some really great info to upload here (sent to him by Neil Crafter in Adelaide).
- Golf Illustrated article dated March 28th, 1930 by Henry Cotton about traveling to and playing the actual course that was built at El Boqueron (in the next post, I show the text, so don't strain too hard to read this). It was built in the exact footprint where the Mackenzie course was planned. He played with Aubrey Boomer, who was the brother of Percy Boomer. Aubrey was a great player. Percy was more known as a teacher and was an early adopter of stop-action photography for instruction.
- Historical aerial showing the Percy Boomer designed course that was actually built there
- Historical aerial with lines drawn in to highlight the routing of the holes
I took the historic aerials and un-skewed them over google earth, so I'll attach some transparencies to show how it locked into the land and the differences between actual and the Mackenzie plan.
(https://i.ibb.co/5kCPh6x/Article-picture.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/XzYZ2tX/Article-henry-Cotton.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/P57KKD0/Aerial-actual-course.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/FJLr03Q/Aerial-with-routing-drawn-in.jpg)
Looking from the right side of the course up toward the Estancia
(https://i.ibb.co/j3QYWkf/Actual-aerial-angled-overlay.jpg)
Actual course vs Mackenzie plans
(https://i.ibb.co/ng51vV9/Actual-vs-Mack-plan-overlay.jpg)
And here is the Mackenzie routing with topo lines (10 foot increments with the clubhouse being high and everything going downhill from there.
(https://i.ibb.co/BGbN33h/El-B-best-overhead-topo-cropped.jpg)
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Here is the text from the article in case it is too difficult to read:
I hardly expect to be believed when I say that Aubrey Boomer and I left our hotel at 4:45 this morning to go out to play golf, but that is actually what happened. I think perhaps I had better explain how it all happened. Mr. Enrique Anchorena, one of the biggest "estancio" owners in the country, asked us to play over his private nine holes course at a place called Boqueron, about twenty miles away. Our time sheet for lessons was as usual full up, and in consequence we had to make an early morning call for the round of golf. Juan Dentone, the local professional, fixed up the match, and drove us over to the course. As usual the road was a dirt track, something like a ploughed field. We had very little time to spare, because we had to be back at the club to resume our routine duties by nine o'clock, and before that had to do the journey and play a match. Whenever I start to write a story it seems that I have to mention our journeys, but these are the most exciting incidents in life, and I beg to be permitted to once more talk about this thing that gives us the biggest thrills.
Dentone drove his Ford car, I thought it looked rather ominous when he explained that he would not take his Chrysler over the rough roads, and it was as interesting as I expected. Dentone is a good driver, but he is also an interesting conversationalist. We in the back seat of the car became almost silent after a while, because Dentone insists upon looking at his passengers when he talks to them, and the road needed a good deal of a driver's interest. We saw on the way a tremendous cart. It was the biggest thing of the kind I have ever encountered. Its wheels are fully ten feet in diameter, and the size of the cart may be imagined when one realises that the load of twelve tons of grain is carried in one of them, and that they are drawn by teams of horses numbering anything up to twenty-eight. This particular one had twenty horses attached to it. The carts carry mostly grain from the interior to the ports, and the journeys occupy many days, the drivers camping beneath the carts at night. The road was not a particularly pleasant one. One sees carcasses of dead horses lying just where they fell, sometimes in the middle of the road, where they remain until eaten by some flies and birds. The bleaching skeletons make a none too pleasant sight.
I realise that so far I have not talked much about golf, but I feel sure a few details will help to give an accurate impression of the surroundings of the course on which we played. As I have mentioned, the Argentine is flat and practically void of trees, but Boqueron reminded me of an English forest, as indeed it might, because Mr. Anchorena has planted nearly one million trees during the last twenty years, and there are so many drives through this little forest that one may easily get lost. Boqueron lies on a small range of hills, and in that respect is also different from the surrounding country. The drive from the gates through these wonderful avenues of fir trees took quite ten minutes. Percy Boomer laid out the course about three years ago, but I should think he would be a little surprised at the interpretation of his ideas, because some of the greens have been made rather impossible. The course is laid out on a little hillside, which is covered with a kind of sage bush of a very prickly nature, and as practically all the holes run between clumps of this growth it is very easy to lose balls, because they are difficult to retrieve even if their whereabouts are known. The greens are small, and as there are no bunkers around them judging distance is an extremely difficult matter. Mr. Anchorena has engaged Juan Dentone to reconstruct some of the greens, and when the work is finished the course will be one of the most interesting over here. On the centre of the course is a well 75 feet deep and cut out of solid rock. The rock was used to build the club house, which is a good deal better than many of the club houses in England. There is also an elaborate pumphouse, which provides an ample pressure of water for all the greens, as well as for the popular swimming pool.
Four men, a tractor, and a triple mower are regularly employed, and are sufficient to keep the course in excellent order. Some of the holes are long, and the last, an uphill hole of 470 yards, requires two of the longest shots anyone can hit to reach the green. It is great to have a golf course in the garden, as this is. All the members of the Anchorena family are ardent golfers, and spend a great deal of their time playing. We played with some of them that morning, and after breakfast drove back to Mar del Plana, with the consolation that we had done something for British golf, because we both played so well that we left behind a good impression of our abilities. The roads in the grounds are grass and look like fairways, almost too good to drive over, but nevertheless we had a puncture, but arrived back late for our appointments at nine o'clock. Dentone tried to make up time on the drive back, and we suffered a number of unnecessary skids, slips and jolts. That ended a memorable morning. We are playing an exhibition match, the first of a series here, this week-end. Boomer and Bertolini, an 18-year-old assistant from Palmero, against Fred Robertson and me. Robertson, who has been out here for about three years, was, it will be remembered, one of the most promising young Lancashire golfers before he left England. In some ways it is rather a pity that he came out here when he did, because although he is one of the great players in this part of the country, I am sure he would have been even a better golfer with more competitive experience. There are few players who can give him a keen match here.
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Enrique Justino Pascual Anchorena Castellanos was the Estancia owner who commissioned the course. He lived from 1879 to 1951. His son, Enrique Anchorena Cabral Hunter, lived from 1907 to 2006- 99 years! He is the one who lived in the clubhouse and kept the plans above the mantle because giving it to his nephew- Jaime Zuberbuhler.
I wonder if anyone ever asked Enrique Achorena Jr. if he knew the story about Mackenzie's involvement or why his plan wasn't implemented.
One discrepancy that I notice is that Dentone is mentioned as the architect for the 9-hole Boqueron course in the Travel and Leisure article, but Henry Cotton clearly gives credit to Percy Boomer and mentioned that Dentone arranged the match and even drove them there. [edit: He also mentions that Dentone was hired to re-do the greens. So, original architect was Boomer and renovating architect was Dentone.]
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Peter Flory,
Great work on a number of fronts here. It's very cool to see how Dentone's work aligned with the MacKenzie routing.
But I was especially interested to read the Cotton article. I did not encounter this piece during my reporting, and was amused to note that, roughly 75 years apart, he and I both devoted a fair amount of words to the mad adventure of simply driving around Argentina. Some things never change! [size=78%] [/size]
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Tom
Just to clarify, a 9 hole course, built in 1927 to the design of Percy Boomer, was already there when Mackenzie visited in March 1930. As stated by henry Cotton. Before Anchorena knew that Mackenzie was available he had asked Dentone to remodel some greens, whether he did this is not known. So its really a case of Mackenzie's design aligning itself with Boomer's routing rather than Dentone's work aligning with the Mackenzie routing. Cheers Neil
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I attach a couple of photos from Arana's trip to El Boqueron in 1940:
- Clubhouse with signage from hole 1
- View of hole 2
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49452110772_d567280f8d_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49452110327_1d2fe738fa_c.jpg)
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Tom
Just to clarify, a 9 hole course, built in 1927 to the design of Percy Boomer, was already there when Mackenzie visited in March 1930. As stated by henry Cotton. Before Anchorena knew that Mackenzie was available he had asked Dentone to remodel some greens, whether he did this is not known. So its really a case of Mackenzie's design aligning itself with Boomer's routing rather than Dentone's work aligning with the Mackenzie routing. Cheers Neil
Thanks for pointing that out. That makes way more sense than Anchorena passing on Mackenzie's plan in favor of the one that was built.
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I attach a couple of photos from Arana's trip to El Boqueron in 1940:
- Clubhouse with signage from hole 1
- View of hole 2
Alfonso, I am unable to see the photos unfortunately, can anyone else see them?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HpcE8x_q1KBDUH54xetFNlQQrHos_iTX_x0hKdUXmGfbuAHDdIT3Jjwkb8okX4Nzi4E2e229ZorKdjf-CyroZ4DVpY6SgHlpwcvyGyP6CI8rpROZ-irUQ0vVLd1LAhKOQdlIKkXChnVdppEbuZoAAlCSAVwIT8Nef-ZeWSwUxMSLBd_AY7iIDT9dGySTNhHl1WDt9U-g_3sR47hH87oZKvEPNf7enxQowf9gL8bSNG9yHUd55ZY2u7Gk2hS4Rotn6-D0qAipaQGF48qifc5iJG9LD3vBo-d7yw33-YWhetyhDKbJy8QpExKPJnPP0XOT1fP56bRHqyX3ruPLobW8kLVJ75lR-qOQxuJihaXZrle7S4ZdyDhZg5OhZqEg1ooeQta1Ki0-RUl53hup-5BvaB_JnNyzi9WgSe8cTEBmMdoB5w53r-QQvXT1UDn3t_RBf2Ry99fdZC0wVZmWiR7OJyrEDMggg4MK4OZc6x7_OJVe_WUG5j4qltKKSWHMT3S-4cad9j5a9PcQHqWg_tzRlsuJiW36-Usr1YogzJnX2xky5jQhIfCnoWPtQpV3kQpWhlxb6QrQjHLcCVBthl4NTPber4dhEywYUhWk3cSrGd-0BM3qe6JEwcFRBDj4CvnPRy8JCmIgoWzC4x4QdgML-gTmJVVnGd93ej63Av_wNT79ZYW6ANl2A4M=w2196-h1396-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HPbzHUibYuU0Re_z2dgOupWDiUchJUrF90EeTEm2ZttmjJcYPDSHPXzrLaFtNJ0mmZYTuSSNQy4FIScZiSbyVNBLjYsjeMFZf-fOiwGePkEinaAWITTCuKeQeDGYaMdzypbfy7LiyAMB3g-wpMJf4VyljU1S336AAA95cU21a8z94KWk6glsRjHVCR_lvj8dEcSgfNO1CytfRDJKVkfdaSKa3QWl5FISo9DCygLY75iFlHmfKWZyUb68LeTJw-WLWMVbu_ZpY7auH1qUMrdgk83km8FgbyQ2zIic_oiEWNNXaBrKx4D--1LK77OeXBdLgvz9BXmUdvqZM3e9MSDyqYGWx43xfwyGHmqCzI_ipFuHVv9umM68cO7SUHA5PvDPLDv6Dsi75CF1UsydH5QMllLlI5oXjq42VGemiGUQFY2naVDHLAYfcfRs7WbfNc6yf8In8mbYPpPNlxf2zr5hMvOzYq91_MOQnBqi9ef4q3U-iIOeOGffapfe8yxRiJ_d-Rsxjk5sEPCZGWT1-z3hhBU-UmzfIdzjdMLldbYeDX9pF9KmuG0h-wRd5wbJfHA2tlRS5XQ-p8WpZOuWU4BYgTmdH5hYedY4ces2MBICbTib6s9iOGsJchu7I4fsetbEi9q3G0aefZT1lsFtt7d6D6NzPVC42b-RZd-vLwEcML1Ln9OKDzfgrlg=w2196-h1396-no)
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I attach a couple of photos from Arana's trip to El Boqueron in 1940:
- Clubhouse with signage from hole 1
- View of hole 2
Alfonso, I am unable to see the photos unfortunately, can anyone else see them?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HpcE8x_q1KBDUH54xetFNlQQrHos_iTX_x0hKdUXmGfbuAHDdIT3Jjwkb8okX4Nzi4E2e229ZorKdjf-CyroZ4DVpY6SgHlpwcvyGyP6CI8rpROZ-irUQ0vVLd1LAhKOQdlIKkXChnVdppEbuZoAAlCSAVwIT8Nef-ZeWSwUxMSLBd_AY7iIDT9dGySTNhHl1WDt9U-g_3sR47hH87oZKvEPNf7enxQowf9gL8bSNG9yHUd55ZY2u7Gk2hS4Rotn6-D0qAipaQGF48qifc5iJG9LD3vBo-d7yw33-YWhetyhDKbJy8QpExKPJnPP0XOT1fP56bRHqyX3ruPLobW8kLVJ75lR-qOQxuJihaXZrle7S4ZdyDhZg5OhZqEg1ooeQta1Ki0-RUl53hup-5BvaB_JnNyzi9WgSe8cTEBmMdoB5w53r-QQvXT1UDn3t_RBf2Ry99fdZC0wVZmWiR7OJyrEDMggg4MK4OZc6x7_OJVe_WUG5j4qltKKSWHMT3S-4cad9j5a9PcQHqWg_tzRlsuJiW36-Usr1YogzJnX2xky5jQhIfCnoWPtQpV3kQpWhlxb6QrQjHLcCVBthl4NTPber4dhEywYUhWk3cSrGd-0BM3qe6JEwcFRBDj4CvnPRy8JCmIgoWzC4x4QdgML-gTmJVVnGd93ej63Av_wNT79ZYW6ANl2A4M=w2196-h1396-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HPbzHUibYuU0Re_z2dgOupWDiUchJUrF90EeTEm2ZttmjJcYPDSHPXzrLaFtNJ0mmZYTuSSNQy4FIScZiSbyVNBLjYsjeMFZf-fOiwGePkEinaAWITTCuKeQeDGYaMdzypbfy7LiyAMB3g-wpMJf4VyljU1S336AAA95cU21a8z94KWk6glsRjHVCR_lvj8dEcSgfNO1CytfRDJKVkfdaSKa3QWl5FISo9DCygLY75iFlHmfKWZyUb68LeTJw-WLWMVbu_ZpY7auH1qUMrdgk83km8FgbyQ2zIic_oiEWNNXaBrKx4D--1LK77OeXBdLgvz9BXmUdvqZM3e9MSDyqYGWx43xfwyGHmqCzI_ipFuHVv9umM68cO7SUHA5PvDPLDv6Dsi75CF1UsydH5QMllLlI5oXjq42VGemiGUQFY2naVDHLAYfcfRs7WbfNc6yf8In8mbYPpPNlxf2zr5hMvOzYq91_MOQnBqi9ef4q3U-iIOeOGffapfe8yxRiJ_d-Rsxjk5sEPCZGWT1-z3hhBU-UmzfIdzjdMLldbYeDX9pF9KmuG0h-wRd5wbJfHA2tlRS5XQ-p8WpZOuWU4BYgTmdH5hYedY4ces2MBICbTib6s9iOGsJchu7I4fsetbEi9q3G0aefZT1lsFtt7d6D6NzPVC42b-RZd-vLwEcML1Ln9OKDzfgrlg=w2196-h1396-no)
I can’t view them either ..... but I could and did view them yesterday. Bizarre.
Atb
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Neil,
Modified the link to the photos. Should work now, or at least it does for me. Now in proper size.
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Neil,
Modified the link to the photos. Should work now, or at least it does for me. Now in proper size.
Thanks Alfonso, works fine now :-)
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Incredible pics! Are there more from that trip, or are the only ones that survived.
Looks like a very relaxing setting.
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Here are the previous photos colorized:
(https://i.ibb.co/C6yhmj5/De-Oldify-El-B-clubhouse.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Kwp825f/De-Oldify-El-B-photo-1.jpg)