Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: TEPaul on January 17, 2009, 12:32:28 PM
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Should it be? If so how?
I'm thinking particularly through structures like some of the caddy programs attached to regional golf associations like Chicago's massive Evans Caddy Scholarship program, Mass's Ouimet and Philadelphia's (GAP) J. Wood Platt?
These regions have done a good job this way for years; should other regions who haven't taken part get involved? If so, how should it be encouraged? Who are the best entities to help encourage it? Should this type of effort be aided somehow by local, state and even the Federal governement in some way?
Could that help encourage somehow far more clubs to do things like at least price their carts at or higher than caddy fees? I doubt anyone or anything could force clubs to do that but what could be done to encourage them to do that?
Some may not like the whole concept of "social engineering" from a government perspective but it's pretty hard to deny that the natural social engineering of caddying throughout golf's history has been a pretty amazing and impressive process of essentially "learning life at a young age."
I realize that impressive world of young caddying way back then did not compete against the cart as it may now but that might not be a good reason to watch it die out to any degree.
I just ran across a guy who is really gungho about this even though he says the effort has been sort of frustrating.
Let's hear your ideas and opinions!
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As much as I hate to say I just don't think caddie in America will be anything more than a niche in the future. I am just as guilty as anyone but we all try to get around the course as quickly as possible and this doesn't jive with taking a caddie. As long as we want to play perceived fast golf and play courses in huge developments with hundreds of yards between holes the caddy won't be mainstream in America.
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Sam:
That's a good point you make even though one I'm sorry to hear. If anyone who really cares about golf in a general sense thinks about it carefully enough, I doubt they could possibly miss the fact that this total fixation on speed of play on a golf course just might be one of the most deleterious influences imaginable on golf and its future!
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Tom-
I have caddied in two great caddy towns...Chicago and boston. I think you raise some good points but I think the bottom line is that clubs with carts available all the time for everyone will never have a good caddy program. The best club for caddies that I have been is the TCC-brookline, that is because carts were not allowed unless for a medical exemption at all times, and if you took a cart anytime you had to have a caddy runner along with you. While caddies were manditory on the weekends before 4pm or so, during the week if players wanted to carry their own bag they could, or more likely if they had guests they would just take caddies.
Another club in Chicago I looped at most of the members took carts constantly, and played rounds around 3 hours or bust...but insisted on having a caddy running along at all times, however you better of not lost any of your player's balls. :P
I think it boils down to a mindset of a club being proud of a great caddy program.
The idea of if the club would rather have young kids looping for scholarships or men who do it for a profession is a whole other discussion....
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Sam:
That's a good point you make even though one I'm sorry to hear. If anyone who really cares about golf in a general sense thinks about it carefully enough, I doubt they could possibly miss the fact that this total fixation on speed of play on a golf course just might be one of the most deleterious influences imaginable on golf and its future!
I agree with you 100%. I play maybe once a year where I can have a caddie and I always enjoy the hell out of it.
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Tom--
Tough call on caddies. There are several issues going on here, the first of which is that many clubs now rely on the revenue from golf carts to make the numbers work. I think an effective argument can be made that carts cause damage equal to the amount of money a club would make from cart rentals, but whoever makes that argument better have a lot of back up.
The second thing is that people think taking a caddie costs too much. When in the Hamptons this past fall, the caddies ran $100 a bag when you include tip. That can be a pretty expensive date if you're doing it 100 times a year. I've had several older people lament to me about how a caddie used to be a dollar a bag. I'm not sure if it's inflation or not, but I think cost becomes an issue at some point. I would be curious to know how much a dollar a bag caddie in the 1940s and 50s would relate to today's money.
I have enjoyed almost all of the rounds I have played with a caddie over the years and I think they add a lot to the experience when you have a good caddie at a great club. I'm sure there have been situations where some people on this board have been saddled with an inexperienced caddie who wasn't worth what the suggested caddie rate is. There probably needs to be some differentiation in the rates between an experienced and an inexperienced caddie.
Sam--
I'm not sure having a caddie slows down a round that much if at all. Most of my experiences have suggested otherwise. A lot of it depends on the players as much as the caddies.
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Tom--
Tough call on caddies. There are several issues going on here, the first of which is that many clubs now rely on the revenue from golf carts to make the numbers work. I think an effective argument can be made that carts cause damage equal to the amount of money a club would make from cart rentals, but whoever makes that argument better have a lot of back up.
The second thing is that people think taking a caddie costs too much. When in the Hamptons this past fall, the caddies ran $100 a bag when you include tip. That can be a pretty expensive date if you're doing it 100 times a year. I've had several older people lament to me about how a caddie used to be a dollar a bag. I'm not sure if it's inflation or not, but I think cost becomes an issue at some point. I would be curious to know how much a dollar a bag caddie in the 1940s and 50s would relate to today's money.
I have enjoyed almost all of the rounds I have played with a caddie over the years and I think they add a lot to the experience when you have a good caddie at a great club. I'm sure there have been situations where some people on this board have been saddled with an inexperienced caddie who wasn't worth what the suggested caddie rate is. There probably needs to be some differentiation in the rates between an experience and an inexperienced caddie.
Sam--
I'm not sure having a caddie slows down a round that much if at all. Most of my experiences have suggested otherwise. A lot of it depends on the players as much as the caddies.
I don't think a caddie slows it down at all. I think rounds are slowed by golfers who don't know what the hell they're doing.
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Yes, caddying can be rejuvenated but only if Americans stop being lazy in general and start walking. Stop allowing carts and you can see a rejuvenation in caddys. Otherwise, they're still dead.
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Hrm. I think simple economics for 9.5/10 people who play golf dictate no-caddies.
I couldn't fathom paying $50/round at my club extra to have a looper. Or even $30-35 for a "rabbit" carrying around the bag.
Also, the golf courses WANT you to take carts--a GM at a local course (ironically, like a par 62!) said that they "couldn't make it" if they didn't have carts.
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Sam--
That's where I thought you were headed with your original comment....
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Sam--
That's where I thought you were headed with your original comment....
I was but probably didn't express it well enough.
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8) ;D :o >:(
Hello Tom, como esta?
Perhaps the cost of the looper has gotten out of control relative to their respective talents....
Having cut my caddying teeth at Woodcrest CC , we had loads of young kids hanging around and eventually only the strong survived ......we weren't paid much when we started, due to our inexperience and age but we learned by hanging around the older guys and learning as apprentices to them on the golf course..Imagine the horror today if a kid went to work for three or four weeks and didn't get paid ...oh mY LOL
my guess is not only would most clubs not alow us to work at 11 or 12 but most parent 's wouldn't allow their children to ride their bikes over hill and dale to get to work..or hang out with old men who drink , smoke , gamble and play cards lol ....what a shame as we built so many great relationships thru caddying and learned lots more about getting snookered
When the costs of a caddy are much greater than a cart ..the caddy eventually gets phased out ...it's a fact at all but the richest clubs ..I'd like to see a caddy get say $5 a bag from the group and be a FORECADDY with duties first and formost find all golf balls , keep an eye on everyones clubs , rake the bunkers, know the yardages for second and third shots etc etc. generally just help the group get around and enjoy the day
this would work at almost all clubs ...and perhaps start a whole new legion of loopers
just need some relaxation from the clubs and the parents but it won't be easy
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Hrm. I think simple economics for 9.5/10 people who play golf dictate no-caddies.
I couldn't fathom paying $50/round at my club extra to have a looper. Or even $30-35 for a "rabbit" carrying around the bag.
If you couldn't fathom $50, I suppose $70 is out of the question...the going rate at my out-of-town club, where caddies are mandatory.
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I grew up caddying at one of the most exclusive clubs in Toronto, certainly the most expensive to join, and the caddy program was quite good.
Unfortunately two things did us in - 1) carts 2) aging membership
It got to the point where you would be lucky to get out for one round on a weekend and were only guaranteed at bag during club tournaments.
We would make about $10-$20 a round depending on experience plus tip which was usually $5-$10.
If you think about it on an hourly basis, you may be lucky to pull in minimum wage, and that does not count all the down time when you are sitting around.
Do you really think there are a lot of kids out there these days that would WANT to caddy?
It involves exercise, people management skills, etiquette, etc. I can think of a lot of other places where a teenager could make more money for a lot less effort.
Don't get me wrong - I love the idea, wish I could afford a caddy (if they were even available), but cannot see any rejuvenation unless something REALLY changes in the modern American game.
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If I owned a club pull carts would be $5, Caddies $20 + tip and carts $50 per person - unless disabled - there would be a handful of single rider ones.
The green fee would be about $40.
There would be no cart paths.
The caddies would get some lessons, playing privileges, range balls and free sodas.
Cheers
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Unfortunately,no chance.
We tried but couldn't really get any traction.Few,if any,really want to walk around a golf course in the heat in Memphis.Add to that the ~ $75 caddie fee and it was a non-starter.
In addition to the problem of having members pay the extra $75,we couldn't get many kids willing to work for $18.75/hour.Granted,we're located in an area where kids aren't asked/forced to work by their parents.The "perk" of course access isn't really worth much when all the parents are members of clubs themselves.
IMO,the only way it works is if a club is willing to subsidize the program.For us,a conservative figure was going to be ~ $40,000/year.This assumed having caddies always available and took the hit to cart fee income into account.We don't have a membership that really understands why caddies could be beneficial.
One other problem is the employment laws.We found that we'd have to hire them as club employees.No independent contractor BS.That meant all the payroll/insurance/liability issues along with pretty strict rules about job description.
I envy those clubs whose cultures allow them to have thriving caddie programs.I think they're going to soon become relics.That will be a tragic loss.
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I'd also sell the caddies with what they do and what benefit they add to a round.
Forecaddy - speeds up play.
Find lost balls - speeds up play.
Tend the flag - speeds up play.
Carries bag - speeds up play.
Manages putter & driver - speeds up play.
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I'd also sell the caddies with what they do and what benefit they add to a round.
Forecaddy - speeds up play.
Find lost balls - speeds up play.
Tend the flag - speeds up play.
Carries bag - speeds up play.
Manages putter & driver - speeds up play.
Mr. Nuzzo,you're 100% right in everything you've said.However,I just don't think you can convince the average member/golfer that there is value added.They just won't pay for something they can't remotely understand.It's like trying to explain Vermeer to Ray Charles.
I once read on here the late,great John Kavanaugh comment that the reason most people don't like caddies is because they're too cheap to use them.I don't think he was totally wrong.
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"One other problem is the employment laws.We found that we'd have to hire them as club employees.No independent contractor BS.That meant all the payroll/insurance/liability issues along with pretty strict rules about job description."
Jeff:
When did your club look into this? If it was quite a while ago you may've been looking at that IRS resolution and that US Congressional bill (sponsored by Congressman Dan Burton) that was intended to make all caddies part of OSHA or whatever and no longer independent contractors. The bill did not pass so as far as I know caddies are still considered to be independent contractors and do not need to be legally considered as club employees and such thing.
The supreme irony is apparently Congressman Dan Burton thought he was helping caddies by getting them benefits and some protection and such but the reality is that would have been so expensive for most all clubs it in essence would have killed American caddying completely.
So even if Burton's heart seemed to have been in the right place for caddies it's a damn good thing his Congressional bill never passed into law.
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I believe the local club should be most responsible for building caddie programs. The local club is the entity most familiar with their membership and the particular needs of that membership. I don't think a national group or governing body would be effective.
The club must train their caddies properly, must evaluate them on a regular basis and provide follow up training. Caddies should be outfitted in some type of standard uniform. They should be paid immediately after the loop is completed. Their pay should be better than what a typical summer job pays. Their should be one individual at the club directly responsible for the caddie program.
Clubs need to consciously promote the program and clearly state that one of their goals as a club is to build a reputable caddie program. The club should look to admit new members who lean toward walking and would enjoy taking a caddie on a regular basis. This might be the single most important aspect when trying to build a consistent caddie program. Furthermore, members should be encouraged to provide honest feedback on a caddie and his/her performance after a round.
I believe 4 guys walking, each with their own caddie, will play at least as fast as 4 guys riding. In many instances, taking a caddie will speed up play, not slow it down. Caddies allow for better enjoyment of the game and allow for players to forget many of the mundane tasks that golf requires, such as raking traps, tending the flag and finding lost balls. Instead, players can walk down the fairway together, have a conversation, and ultimately, have a more personal and connected experience with each other.
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This is a great subject. Unfortunately, we've had the same experience in the Northwest. We've had a couple resurgences of caddy programs that quickly fizzled.
On top of the cart, here's a few things I see as:
1. The social shift: It was cool 20-30 years ago for just about anyone at a private club to take a caddy. Not so these days - the average private club member would look significanty out of place showing up with a caddy. The allure is just not there any more - it's out of style.
2. Bag technology - Quite fankly, if you're a walker and bag makes you tired, you should probably be riding. If a push cart's your pleasure, then so be it. The point is that the patent red leather spalding bag is gone, and the double strap (hate 'em) 1.5 ounce bag is here. Hiring someone to carry a sun mountain double strap bag is a little silly, isn't it.
As we get further down this road, there are less young people interested in learning how to become really good caddies. I took one at Bandon recently - and there's some good ones there - but the guy I had was claiming himself as "A" product - and was far from it. Assuming I need a read....biggest peeve of them all. Don't give advice unless asked!!
I'd love to see a better national program - the Evans scholarship is an incredible program aimed at helping hard working, deserving young people (not hand-outs...entirely diferent subject). I've seen some tremendous people come through the Evans program to give back tons to their community and golf.
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"One other problem is the employment laws.We found that we'd have to hire them as club employees.No independent contractor BS.That meant all the payroll/insurance/liability issues along with pretty strict rules about job description."
Jeff:
When did your club look into this? If it was quite a while ago you may've been looking at that IRS resolution and that US Congressional bill (sponsored by Congressman Dan Burton) that was intended to make all caddies part of OSHA or whatever and no longer independent contractors. The bill did not pass so as far as I know caddies are still considered to be independent contractors and do not need to be legally considered as club employees and such thing.
The supreme irony is apparently Congressman Dan Burton thought he was helping caddies by getting them benefits and some protection and such but the reality is that would have been so expensive for most all clubs it in essence would have killed American caddying completely.
So even if Burton's heart seemed to have been in the right place for caddies it's a damn good thing his Congressional bill never passed into law.
We played around with it 2-3 years ago.I spent a lot of time on the phone with the guy at the WGA who runs the Evans program(I can't remember his name).He had a lot of good suggestions about how to get started but,ultimately,the culture at my place wouldn't allow it.
As to the Burton proposal,it really wasn't a consideration.Our concern was the grey area of independent contractor and the possibility of blowback(we've had other independent contractor issues).The fear was that we would have ultimate responsibility for guys on our property without a real good way to protect ourselves.That usually leads to a check being written.
As to specifics,we wanted to hire area kids(an entire lacrosse team),some of whom were members' children and some younger than 16.The idea was that we would use a group of them for not only caddying but in the bag room and,maybe,valet parking.The theory was that if I could sell enough people on the extra service provided by a minimum-wage army,the subsidy for the caddie program would get "overlooked".IMO,if you don't always have a caddie available,you're dead.Hence,the minimum-wage army.I didn't want to ever have a member say that he wanted to walk but nobody was there to carry his bag.
I guess if a club wanted to have a caddie program badly enough,there are ways to accomplish it.However,it's going to cost SOMEBODY.Either the club itself or through "inflated" caddie fees.At my place,I can't get a critical mass of guys to try.
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I'm not sure what the future holds in store for those who depend on caddying for a living, but for high school and some mature junior high students, I think it can definitely work. That's the way it is for my caddies, and those who excel end up getting three or four loops a week throughout the summer.
The fees are more modest - $30 plus tip for an "A" caddie (they usually get $40 to $50 total) - and only slightly more expensive than a cart fee. For the extra service they provide, it's a real winner and more and more of the club's members and guests have employed them in the last two years.
Will caddying ever be what it once was? I doubt it, but I think there are definitely more places that could use the system that works for us. It's a great opportunity for the kids and provides a great service to the members, all at a relatively low expense. They need to be great kids and well-trained, but they're out there.
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The key to a viable caddy program is guaranteed income. At many clubs the caddies simply don't get out even if arriving early in the morning. If clubs could arrange for caddies in advance and have them arrive 1/2 hour before a loop the cost of a caddy could be less and the popularity of caddying would rise. A caddy seems expensive from the player's perspective, but the hourly wage is quite low considering wait time and the number of occasions that caddies arrive for work and go home empty handed.
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Caddies are dead except for a small niche market. It is simply too expensive for 99% of golfers to justify.
My club I play at requires caddies even if you take a cart and we have a good program.
If I go and play I usually play 36. At $75 per round I spend $150 for a day of golf not including the lunch that day, a sleeve or two of balls and a glove. That is an expensive day of golf but I don't play much so when I do I treat myself.
Anyway, for the caddy he was at the course at 7:00 AM. (One hour before the first golfer heads out). He waits while I warm up and I tee off at 8:30. I'm done around 12:00, have lunch and meet my caddy back at the tee at 1:00 for another loop. I'm done around 4:30 and by the time the clubs are cleaned, put in my car and we settle up the caddy is leaving around 5:00. Assuming ten bucks for lunch and snacks, he takes home $140 bucks or $14 an hour--not exactly getting rich and he's put in 36 holes.
So I think most would say that type of golf is expensive when you do the per round math (dues plus rounds)and the caddy while receiving a very fair wage is not getting rich either. Also as an independent contractor he only gets paid when he works, has no employer health care benefits and must suffer through rain outs and many guys who don't pay well and can be a pain in the ass.
At a resort maybe a guy treats himself to a caddy or at a club that has guys willing to spend a lot of money per round for golf and are healthy enough to do so.
Mike N:
The club I own--walk anytime for free, 18 hole pull cart is $7, 9 hole pull cart is $4, (no caddies :() $50 guest fee except for juniors for whom it is $5
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Tom,
I am generally a proponent of caddie programs. The concern I have is that the current economic conditions will not be favorable to caddie programs. I see a period where many users of caddies have less cash than they had last year. This will lead to less rounds obviously, as has been stated elsewhere here.
Members may pressure their clubs to relax their mandatory caddie programs in order to drive more rounds through the club. This would lead to more pro shop and food & beverage activity, but less caddie activity. Add to this that we may see more older caddies as people turn to caddying to pick up some extra cash. This will lead to less rounds per caddie and may discourage caddies who rely primarily on caddie fees.
What are your thoughts on this?
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I once read on here the late,great John Kavanaugh comment that the reason most people don't like caddies is because they're too cheap to use them.I don't think he was totally wrong.
There's another good reason besides $$ people are leery of caddies---intimidation. They don't want their game on display to what they feel might be a judgemental outsider. What they of course don't realize is, that no matter how bad they are, the caddie has seen others that are far worse!
And Chris Cupit---the $ figure doesn't change for you in your example regarding a day at your first-class club, but don't most caddies double-bag? So--for the same effort and hours you describe, he actually walks with more like $290 for the day? Which makes it a far more attractive proposition...
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Speaking as one who wants to like the institution of the caddy, I must honestly ask 'why should I care?' Someone please tell me what I am missing. I've never had a caddy, nor ever caddied (save for carrying the pro's bag for a state open qualifying round once) so I have a tough time understanding what the big deal is. Why should someone who's never had someone caddy for him ever start in the first place?
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Charlie,
Forgetting the potential camaraderie example that sometimes develops between player and caddie, the simplest reason is that walking a golf course unencumbered by one's golf bag is a tremendous pleasure. And while the same thing is possible (and way cheaper) by walking yourself while someone else is riding, and the rider also has your bag strapped on the cart, the give-and-take aspect of conversation is only possible when both (or all) parties are walking--either carrying their own, of having a caddie do it for them.
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When the costs of a caddy are much greater than a cart ..the caddy eventually gets phased out ...it's a fact at all but the richest clubs ..I'd like to see a caddy get say $5 a bag from the group and be a FORECADDY with duties first and formost find all golf balls , keep an eye on everyones clubs , rake the bunkers, know the yardages for second and third shots etc etc. generally just help the group get around and enjoy the day
this would work at almost all clubs ...and perhaps start a whole new legion of loopers
$20 a loop to forecaddy? New legion of loopers? Maybe if this was 1975, but I don't think $5 an hour plus waiting around for a loop is going to inspire anyone to work for well under minimum wage. I agree that younger caddies are underpaid, but they are going to cost more than a cart, unless cart fees drastically change.
You're not the only one though. I brought 2 guests out to my club last year and had an older member join us. Our forecaddy was great, but unfortunately spent most of his time tending to the older member. At the end of the round the member gave me $5 and told me to settle up w/ the caddy for him as he scooted off.....needless to say, I dug into my own pocket and won't be playing with him again.
I think the biggest problem is the whole tipping issue. Just make it a flat fee for the caddy, no tipping involved. No teenager deserves over $100 for 4 hours of work, but neither do they deserve just $40. Put a set amount on the loop and set realistic expectations, both from the caddy and the player. The guy who plays 3 times a year, but drops $150 on a kid for caddying ruins it for the guys who play 100 times a year and wants a caddy day in and day out. When a 15 year old looks at you cross-eyed when they're *only* making $15-$20 an hour, that's when things are out of whack. Sure beats bagging groceries.
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I grew up around Boston (Needham exactly) and caddying at Wellesley Country Club was my introduction to the game. I can not say that I have an abundance of fond memories of it, as a sizable percentage of the membership treated the caddy with severe indifference (or so is my memory). We were a family of modest means and I could earn some money to which was mine to do with as I pleased.
With the golf cart and all the institutional. organizational & economic umphh behind it as well as many kids in many families that just have to stick there hand out for some $, I should think that the caddy is about dead barring some kind of very severe recession or the environmental abolition of the cart.
I stand corrected if needed.
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I once read on here the late,great John Kavanaugh comment that the reason most people don't like caddies is because they're too cheap to use them.I don't think he was totally wrong.
There's another good reason besides $$ people are leery of caddies---intimidation. They don't want their game on display to what they feel might be a judgemental outsider. What they of course don't realize is, that no matter how bad they are, the caddie has seen others that are far worse!
And Chris Cupit---the $ figure doesn't change for you in your example regarding a day at your first-class club, but don't most caddies double-bag? So--for the same effort and hours you describe, he actually walks with more like $290 for the day? Which makes it a far more attractive proposition...
Yes. Most of the time the caddies do try to carry a double and it works great if you have four. Sometimes there are three and then most foursomes will walk the first 18 and ride the second 18 and one caddie will leave (after hs $150 day) and the other will forecaddie for the foursome.
Don't ge me wrong I think the caddies do fine--most are young kids and it is a great outdoor way to help pay for school or whatever. There are some guys for whom it is a big source of income and I was just trying to make the point that it is hard to pay any less for this amenity and at the current cost it is hard for most to justify--caddy programs face a tough future.
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If I owned a club pull carts would be $5, Caddies $20 + tip and carts $50 per person - unless disabled - there would be a handful of single rider ones.
The green fee would be about $40.
There would be no cart paths.
The caddies would get some lessons, playing privileges, range balls and free sodas.
Cheers
The problem is that it makes to much sense to work. I think we need something like that though Mike.
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I love caddies! and I am one myself. I spent this past summer looping at Quaker Ridge, and had the best summer of my life. I was the first one there, arrive at 6am to be the first on the sign in list, and the last one to leave every day. I quickly worked my way up and was one of the top caddies by the end of the summer.
At Quaker, members are required to take caddies until 3pm every day, although carts are allowed for those with medical reasons. Even when members were in carts, a fore-caddy was required because it speeds up play, but because caddies are relying on these loops as income... most of them paid full fee even when riding.
There is no way that having a caddy doesn't speed up the round. Normally we had 2 caddies in every group, one grabbing the pin and reading greens, while the other one drops off drivers at the next tee and goes off to fore-caddy. In general you would alternate who grabs the pine, but the key is to work as a team. Both caddies shouldn't be raking green-side bunkers, we would signal to each other, so one person grabs the pin, the other takes care of the bunkers, and then hurries ahead to the next fairway. In some cases, if one caddy isn't comfortable on greens, then he will go ahead all day.
Also, this summer (my first summer) the club started using the laser guns that give exact yardage to every pin. While I resisted at first, they absolutely speed up the game even more and are pretty accurate. I found they work best in combination with the markers, so i give the players a more accurate reading from the center of the green.
For the most part I found that the older guys, the career caddies, were the best, and most numerous at Quaker. Unfortunately I found that a lot of times, the player would be intimidated by them, having a man the same age or older carrying your bag in the hot sun can be a little odd, and thats understandable. Then there are kids, who sign up because they need money for school, and discover this great game, play with mixed sets the caddy master puts together for them, and are always begging to play. I found that these kids are often very good, but are often to shy to speak up even though they are probably better than their player. The guys who showed up to make a little extra cash on the weekends were hit or miss. But the kids who got the job because daddy knew a member of the club were the worst, they were oblivious to what was going on 90% of the time.
As I'm sure you have figured out, I absolutely loved caddying, and not just because of the pay, which was unbelievable. If I went home with less than $150 in my pocket I was unhappy. But there is just something about being out there, pulling clubs, reading greens, that I enjoy. After a summer on the job you have a better understanding of the "average golfer", and I recommend picking up a loop to every architect. Also there is not a doubt in my mind that having a caddy makes you a better player... but I probably wouldn't caddy for $20, and there would be no such thing as a career caddy for $20, how can you expect some of these guys to put food on the table for their kids at $20? If you want caddying to die, drop the fees to $20!
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Just another thought on this $20 caddy...
On a 4 hour round, thats $5 an hour, almost $2 bellow minimum wage!
or
20/18 = about $1 a hole... I wouldn't carry someone's golf bag 500 yards down the first fairway for $1 let alone do that 18 times! my grand mother would give at least a 5 dollar bill and a pinch on the cheek!
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Thanks Joel, it's a good reason, but for good or ill, a trolley can accomplish nearly the same thing.
What's more, the caddy is just such a foreign concept to me (as is the concierge, the masseuse, the valet etc.) that I don't quite know what I'd be mourning if it was lost. Like the other examples, I've never employed a caddy, and I quite likely never will if the caddy is going away as quickly as those here seem to believe.
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According to this inflation calculator, if you paid $1 for a caddie in 1950, it would be equal to paying $8.89 today. (http://www.halfhill.com/inflation.html)
Maybe you were misremembering the date and it was 1935? (I know we have some veterans on the site :D) If so, your dollar then stretches to $15.81 in 2009!!
We have 120 caddies at my resort near Shanghai. Caddying is considered an excellent job over here for young women. We have about 5 guys and 115 young women working the bags. The guys usually end up branching out into starters and marshals; at our club all caddies may play for free on Mondays when the course is closed to members after passing an exam, but usually only the guys take advantage of this. The young women will stay for a few years if they have the opportunity. Usually tip is about $14 for 18 holes; taking a caddie is mandatory.
Personally I enjoy going out on Mondays without any caddie but I am constantly reminded by the little things I see that these young women are the big breadwinners in the family.
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For us in the Chicago area, it would mean the Evans Scholar program would be lost. We have caddies from all walks of life, from kids who don't have to work at all to kids who hand their daily tips over to mom and dad to help pay the bills. It's a great way for kids to make a really good paycheck during the summer, make some pretty good contacts if they hang out long enough and possibly get a ticket to a school most could never afford.
As a member, I get the benefit of having a caddy program but it's also great to catch up w/ the kids after another year of school to see what they're up to. Most if not all are very appreciative of their jobs and the opportunities that can be found in it. And there is not much better than 4 players heading out w/ 4 caddies on a weekend morning. I don't think caddies are going the way of the dodo, but I think it would be very hard to change the culture of a club that doesn't already have caddies.
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Tommy Paul, Thank you for addressing a subject near and dear to my heart,caddying. I believe that this is the ideal way to be exposed to the sport of golf if you grow up in a nongolfing family as I did. I started at the age of 12 and caddied at Beverly for about 10 yrs during which time I was awarded the Evans. We have about 300 caddies,most HS and college kids, not really any projocks. The typical caddy earns from $40-80 per loop. You must take a caddy and double bagging rarely occurs. We also have over 300 Evans Scholar alums from Beverly-the largest # in the program. A couple of other GCAers that shall remain nameless have been very suppportive both financially and time wise to keep our caddy program as good as any in the Chicago area. As Clint mentioned , OFCC also has a great program . The WGA is very supportive with getting a caddy program off the ground. Generally the local high schools are a great source. Ballyneal has done this recently, with I believe 2 or 3 scholars-Rupert O is a WGA director now. I realize that a caddy is an extra expense but it is so much more enjoyable than riding a cart.
Tommy, As an aside, the elderly gentleman that caddied for me at Gulph Mills last August was just a wealth of course information in addition to being a great guy to BS with. I hope to repay the favor at Beverly whenever you chose to visit the Windy City! Wish you well, Jack
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When the tariff becomes a $100.00 per bag and the caddie is carrying double, I think that this stresses quite a few players.
I played with a man just yesterday that posted scores for 370 rounds in 2007, fortunately most were not played at the course where the fee is as above.
Bob
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At a time in my life when I truly could have gone either way, a buddy and I used to hitchhike 10-15 miles out to a few of the country clubs to caddie.
Some times we got loops, some times I'd just sit around staring at the golf course in awe.
We never made a whole lot of money...just something to spend on a Friday, or Saturday night, and I can't even say I learned some wonderful life lessons from the largely nouveau riche that we primarily hoofed for.
However, we were on a golf course, and a beautiful and well-conditioned, and generally interesting one(s), and to me, there was no place on earth any better.
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Bob, I agree that at $100 a pop it would be very costly-keep in mind Chicago has such a short season,7 months. It allows us to replenish the kitty! ;) I have to say that I am envious of a man who logs 370 rounds per annum- I assume he is retired or divorced? Wish you well, Jack
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8) ;D >:( >:( ???
hey guys, you asked how to fix it , to save the institution, get the answer then say no way.
Assume 5$ a guy plus tip , at my place the caddy would get 20-25 bucks plus tip lots of times we play five guys on busy weekends , and finish in about 3 45 all summer long ...so by 12 noon the forecaddy has made at least 40 bucks , as the guys who play good will slide him some extra, would have gotten something to eat or drink at the half -way house maybe learned a little about the game and made some older friends who just might be able to help him lin life
If he's good and polite , he's (or she) is going to get a bunch of clubs or balls to use (s guys buy new ones or discard old) and becomes eligible for a college scholarship ...some of the best friends I have at 50 I met between 12-22 yrs old ....it got me on Pine Valley....Shinnecock ....Merion ...Seminole .... Royal County Down Winged Foot need I go on... most for gratis .... I always had cash in my pocket ...learned to play gin...pinochle etc etc
whats wrong with a 12-16 year old kid making 70-100 bucks cash on a weekend and getting some fresh air and exercise, I can guarantee you that 95 % of the kids I know don't make anything on a weekend ...they don't have jobs.....plus almost all caddies I know eventually get to play some golf and get free lessons from the pro"s if they hang around enough
If you want to make big money looping you will of course have to eventually go to one of the ritzier clubs , but you have some bottom ...you know how to caddy...because you learned from the better players at the club
the key is that almost no one begrudges five or ten bucks for a forecaddy, particularly a good one, and the big tippers will always get some extra cash into a hard workers pocket sooner or later....forecaddying is the ticket you can book it guys, it will work and not cost the club any dough !
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The club I own--walk anytime for free, 18 hole pull cart is $7, 9 hole pull cart is $4, (no caddies :() $50 guest fee except for juniors for whom it is $5
$5 fee for juniors - that's a great thing to do.
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Archie,
You rock.
Mike
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I caddied in St. Louis from the age of 12 all the way through college. I began in 1977 and a first-year single caddie was paid about $4.25 for 18 holes. Those caddies beyond their first-year were paid about $5.00 per bag. By either one’s first or second year of high school, it was almost all doubles (so about $10.00 per loop). And the club I caddied at had a no tipping rule (which a vast majority of the membership followed).
We had over 100 caddies and it was the best thing that happened in my life.
First of all, the only other way a boy could earn money before the age of 12 was yard work and shoveling snow in the winter. With caddying we could still cut a few lawns in the neighborhood. Some caddies began to quit when they were old enough to get other jobs, but quite a few kept at it all through high school and occasionally into college. For one thing it was easier to keep with on school work and school athletics, since you only had to caddie when you choose to. Also, it was more fun then a lot of other high school jobs. In addition, there was the free golf at a private course once per week (plus occasional free shoes from members, and the pro allowed the caddies to buy equipment at cost.)
Everyday during summer break I had something to do. I would go to the caddie yard. Most caddies could get at least 1 loop in during each weekday (except during the worst heat waves), and quite a few could get in 2 loops on Sat or Sun.
While waiting for a loops you hung out with your buddies, learned to play cards for dimes and quarters, talked sports, and got to hear stories from the handful of college aged caddies.
Then on the course you learned how to behave around professionals, and also learned how the higher-ups in the world (the executives, owners, etc.) behaved out of the limelight and during their leisure time (which is actually similar to everyone else). These were great lessons when it was time to enter the work force after college. In addition, caddying for the better golfers was a good way to learn how to play. Finally, caddying for those who love the game result in learning how to respect the course and the game.
The benefits of the caddie scholarships are obvious. But even those who do not get caddie scholarships can make great connections that come in handy later in life.
I got a lot of interviews after college through the people I caddied for. Then, when I did begin my first office job, I was at ease with my supervisors, since I was use to dealing with professionals through my time caddying.
I think if clubs concentrate recruiting caddies around age 12-13, they can develop a very strong caddie program, but which will not be too expensive for the membership. A very active caddie program, with strong training by an excellent caddie master, can result in a caddie that is more than just a bag toter after just 2 years of caddying experience.
The caddie yard gave me friends for life; introduced me to golf (properly); kept me busy during summer breaks during my teenage years, gave me an opportunity to earn some spending money, without interfering with school; gave me valuable work experience & lessons (to earn good money caddying, I had to learn to get myself out of bed early every morning, and learn how to give excellent service so that the caddie master heard good things about me from the membership); gave me networking opportunities when I was looking to get my first real job out of college; and finally gave me the knowledge I needed to behave properly once I got that first job (respect, hard work, hustle, and proper workplace behavior).
If this is not enough to convince one of the benefits of having a vibrant caddie program, than I do not know what will.
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In addition, per the fees:
Pay likely needs to be at least minimum wage. For a 4-hour round this is about $32.00
If a club recruits local 12-13 year olds, has a single only, no tipping rule for first & second year caddies, then allows them to receive tips after 2 years, and to double (but for only $25 per bag, then plus tip) I think the economics may then work for some clubs.
Also, if the members tip vetern single caddies better than vetern doubles, some veterns may prefer to single (for instance if they may make $50 for a single vs. $60 for a double).
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Hrm. I think simple economics for 9.5/10 people who play golf dictate no-caddies.
I couldn't fathom paying $50/round at my club extra to have a looper. Or even $30-35 for a "rabbit" carrying around the bag.
If you couldn't fathom $50, I suppose $70 is out of the question...the going rate at my out-of-town club, where caddies are mandatory.
At over 100 rounds a year on my home course, I just couldn't swing a looper every time.
Now, for an out of town club, I can understand.
And I only play, say, 10 rounds a year at clubs that dictate mandatory caddies.
Now, I'll also put it this way--I also grew up caddying, and if I had the means, would be one of the first to step up and support a program.
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In addition, per the fees:
Pay likely needs to be at least minimum wage. For a 4-hour round this is about $32.00
If a club recruits local 12-13 year olds, has a single only, no tipping rule for first & second year caddies, then allows them to receive tips after 2 years, and to double (but for only $25 per bag, then plus tip) I think the economics may then work for some clubs.
Also, if the members tip vetern single caddies better than vetern doubles, some veterns may prefer to single (for instance if they may make $50 for a single vs. $60 for a double).
I can see the economics working for the club/members, but not for the caddies. It's not like they start "working" the second you tee off and get done the moment you walk off 18. Not to mention the time waiting around for a loop. The pay needs to make up for the intangibles, or you'll lose the kids to other summer jobs. I do like your idea of introducing tips after a certain period of time though, but I think the base pay needs to be high enough to show that caddying is a worthwhile pursuit over their high school and even college years. Paying them minimum wage just puts the club at risk of losing them to the first job that offers them another few bucks an hour. I'd rather pay a little extra knowing that caddy turnover is low and even the youngest will have some experience.
Even a decent forecaddy will save a golfer 2-3 balls per round just by finding them. I think it's fair to factor that into their pay as well.
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Tom P:
Caddying is a program near and dear to my heart. I am happy to do a small part by offering a reduction on our design fee for any client that will forego cart paths ... it really saves our brains by not having to figure out where to put the ugly paths, and it encourages walking and/or caddie programs.
The caddie programs in Chicago and Philadelphia and Boston and New York are tremendous, but I believe the main reason they've survived is because of the support they receive from graduates of the program who tend to be on the boards of clubs in those cities. It would be much harder to start a program from scratch; I've been involved with several courses that have tried (including Crystal Downs) and it is always tough sledding, anywhere carts are an option.
I think Archie's approach is a great one. At the end of the day, it's the 12-15 year old kids you are trying to attract.
P.S. I could not recommend more to any aspiring architect the experience of caddying for a summer. I only did it so I could see The Old Course at St. Andrews on an everyday basis, but along the way I learned what a huge variety of players there are who love the game in spite of their ability level ... and that THEY are the retail golfers Mike Keiser thinks about.
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Bill Shamleffer:
That is one explanatory and beautiful post about caddying!! Do you think something or some things have changed in this world enough where what you experienced that way can't really get rejuventated somehow?
And if you think they can be, please, let's have some ideas from you!
For me, I never caddied, not once, except the one time I carried the bag for Charlie Bolling in a US Open qualifer here in Philadelphia maybe 25 years ago. Thirty six holes, the first round at Philadelphia Country club where he was medalist. Then over to Gulph Mills, our club, where I guess we both felt qualifying had to be a lock. I just don't know what the hell happened at our home club but everything came unraveled and I was just mortified---I felt it must have been my fault, and it probably was.
Nevertheless, the bond or symbiosis between a player and caddie who really understand one another is just pretty ineffable, in my opinon. I've seen it in my life and it's just beautiful, the list is long but some great examples in my experiences---Chet Walsh and his decades long caddie we call Petro, or Marucci and Faz---what a great amateur run those two have had over the years. I've gotten to know so many caddies in my career in golf who are just great fellows. It's a funny thing, hard to generalize about.
Mike DiGangi, if you're out there and you happen to read this---I love you guy---we sure did have some times together, didn't we? The highlight for me with you was when we won that Philadephia player/caddy better ball tournament, the one and only time we did that! What could top that?
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Tom P:
Caddying is a program near and dear to my heart. I am happy to do a small part by offering a reduction on our design fee for any client that will forego cart paths ... it really saves our brains by not having to figure out where to put the ugly paths, and it encourages walking and/or caddie programs.
Tom, do you think the day will ever come that an architect can rise to such popularity that they could take a stand and only take jobs that build walking only courses? It would appear to me that some have gotten to the point that the housing developer gets the steering wheel after the architect, but walking only isn't there yet.
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"Tom P:
Caddying is a program near and dear to my heart. I am happy to do a small part by offering a reduction on our design fee for any client that will forego cart paths ..."
Tom Doak:
That is something I sure never heard before but think is a unique and heartfelt idea. That suggestion definitely made this thread worth posting even if no one else made a single response.
Thank you
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I've been looking for a good place away from the daunting 6.082,308,0402 posts of the Cobb's Creek to post some of the wonderful footage of the late Tilly DePalma, who was 97 years old during this filming last summer, and who was Joe Coble's (US Publinx champion in 1924 and later professional) caddy at Cobb's Creek and elsewhere during the 1920's.
If anyone doubts the value of caddie programs, I can tell you that Mr. DePalma carried those lessons across decades of an incredible life;
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KCjsGQEizAk
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Thank you for sharing Jaeger.
Sounds like you'd be great to spend the afternoon with at Quaker Ridge.
Did you ever caddie for Rosie?
The $20 is to keep 'em out of a cart - not keep career caddies. Your skills work at few and far between locations.
If they have internet parking in NYC I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible to have an on-line caddy program at my club.
How much would it cost to keep players out of a cart at Pebble? $400 walking $550 cart?
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As to the original question I think the answer is no. I enjoy using caddies but think they provide little value to me when I play golf at my club.
If one really wanted to rejuvinate caddying, a club should (1) reduce the fee, including tip, to $25 and (2) to the extent possible get rid of carts.
I don't see either of those happening.
In order to see widespread caddy programs, people need to take caddies because they are worth the money rather than out of altruism. I've played my course 200 times. I do not need a caddy to tell me where to hit the ball. I do not need someone to carry my bag (in fact I prefer to carry it myself because carrying is better exercise). I do not need someone to rake bunkers or fix divots. Thus, the $50 bucks I pay for a mandatory caddie each round is prettty much pure philanthropy. I wouldn't be surprised if some take carts just to avoid the fee.
I think everyone has the ideal of a raw junior high kid, showing up at a country club, learning from kindly members as he or she makes some mistakes and matures into someone who loves golf, gets exposed to a segment of society he or she would not otherwise see and grows into a person that loves the game, makes friends and has more opportunities outside the game. I try to make that work each year but the batting average is pretty low.
We have 20-30 such kids show up at my club each year. We have a relatively small membership, 70 percent of the membership rides and a core of 10 or so caddies takes many of the prime loops that exist. The experienced caddies do a good job, but most are well past college age and are making a living from the regular groups that play daily. Thus, I would guess 2-3 caddies stick out of the original group each year.
As a result, many of the new kids get few opportunities to carry, tire of waiting around and then stop showing up. A $25 fee would give them more opportunities because (1)the price would be equal to a cart and (2) no one could make a living off of caddying thereby allowing the younger kids more of the prime loops.
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Every now and then my buddy and I play this junker Par 3 course at night, it has lights, with four clubs in our Sunday bag and a beer or two. We play as many holes as we can until the lights are turned off. Usually 36 to 54 holes. We have a blast.
Last time I was there I was blown away. There were carts available and even more incredibly people taking them. Carts on a Par 3 course? Are you kidding me? Very, very sad. And we wonder why Americans are getting obese.
Sadly I think this answers the question.
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P.S. I could not recommend more to any aspiring architect the experience of caddying for a summer. I only did it so I could see The Old Course at St. Andrews on an everyday basis, but along the way I learned what a huge variety of players there are who love the game in spite of their ability level ... and that THEY are the retail golfers Mike Keiser thinks about.
Never a truer word spoken.
I think this is one aspect of a golf architects education that is hugely underestimated. A keen awareness of the w-i-d-e variety of golfers mindsets is key to understanding what kind and style of challenges to offer them in a given context, i.e. 'Championship', members course, resort and so on.
After the MSc course, I spent a couple of years trying to get our architectural practice up and running. When work was slack (nearly always!), I caddied at Kingsbarns every day. There I not only got to see, and feel under my feet, how cleverly designed and properly maintained a facility it is, but also got to meet maybe a couple of thousand or so golfers on pilgrimage to the Home of Golf.
They gave me insights into golfers heads that contribute hugely to my design philosophies. Believe me, there were as many differing viewpoints on golf as there were golfers, from the keenest of low-handicappers needing to know every nuance of the course, to the most laid-back partying groups only intent on having a laugh, smoking a few stogies and guzzling good Malt. I met 'em all and each and every one of them added to my appreciation of what kind of 'Product' should best be offered to which particluar range of clientele. Of course, the toughest thing about all of that is trying to please all of the people, all of the time!!!
FBD.
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We have 20-30 such kids show up at my club each year. We have a relatively small membership, 70 percent of the membership rides and a core of 10 or so caddies takes many of the prime loops that exist. The experienced caddies do a good job, but most are well past college age and are making a living from the regular groups that play daily.
As a result, many of the new kids get few opportunities to carry, tire of waiting around and then stop showing up. A $25 fee would give them more opportunities because (1)the price would be equal to a cart and (2) no one could make a living off of caddying thereby allowing the younger kids more of the prime loops. Thus, I would guess 2-3 caddies stick out of the original group each year.
Jason,
Those are good observations.
One of the difficulties at higher end clubs is that the members get used to "career caddies" who guide them around and basically give them a playing lesson. Many of these caddies are assistant pros in the summer and caddie in the winter at high end Florida Clubs.
It's an uphill battle assigning a polite, well trained kid (who's not a two handicap)to many members when they had a pro caddying for them all winter. Sadly, caddying has become a career for many of them and often comes with the bad habits of an itinerant lifestyle.
Many end up caddying year round as at the better clubs they can make more in cash than they ever could at a mediocre assistant's job.
We have made great headway with college golfers who are excellent caddies but I'm afraid the money they make in the summer may be seductive enough to keep them from moving onto more stable, career oriented employment.
Ideally, I'd like to get more high school kids involved but it seems like they have year round sports distracting them and i frankly have a hard time recruiting them even at enviable wages-and then there's convincing certain members that they don't need a pro to be their caddy every time.
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Bill Shamleffer:
That is one explanatory and beautiful post about caddying!! Do you think something or some things have changed in this world enough where what you experienced that way can't really get rejuventated somehow?
And if you think they can be, please, let's have some ideas from you!
Two things immediately pop into my head that have caused the decline of caddying.
Number 1 (by a long shot) carts. I have nothing more to add to this item that has not already been said hundreds of times.
Number two, the locations of clubs. The course I caddied at was in the middle of a dense suburb, so hundred of kids lived within a mile radius of this course. Also the neighborhood was primarily middle class, so most of the kids caddying did not come from families that belonged to country clubs and did not go to summer camps. Thus, caddying became their de facto summer camp. Many of today's new private courses are built further out in the suburbs, in communities where land use is much more spread out, and where hundreds of available caddies do not live a short bike ride from the course.
Now I can not undue either of the above items. However, I do have a couple of thoughts for anyone serious about increasing the number of caddies. Obviously the membership needs to be committed to the use of caddies (either by less use of carts, or in conjunction with cart use).
But another thought is to have a regional initiative. Either by a consortium of clubs, or by a local golf association. A quality caddie program MUST have a quality caddie master. But if no single club can support 100 or 200 caddies, perhaps two to four clubs can support 40 to 50 caddies each. In which case one caddie master may be able to oversee the caddie programs at all of the clubs. A responsible college kid could be the on site assistant at each club, while the caddie master creates an excellent and effective recruiting, training, supervisory program.
An additional benefit to this approach is that these clubs may b able to share these caddies. For instance when one of these blubs is having a big member-guest weekend, and would like additional extra caddies, it could be pre-arranged to have some of the regular caddies from the other course to caddie for that weekend at that club.
All of this will take real commitment from members at the clubs and/or at the local golf associations. This will include some financial commitment to a good caddie master. It will also require some time commitment from some of the members at the clubs. However, I think if the benefits I presented in my initial e-mail were presented, the commitment could develop. Also, I am certain that if my club wanted some extra volunteers to assist from outside of the club, they would find quite a few of my fellow former caddies willing to give a few hours a month to these efforts.
The guys I caddied with, and the guys that caddied a few years before me all loved their years in the caddie yard so much, that when one of the other caddies organized a "caddie reunion" a few years ago at the local Legion Club, almost a hundred former caddies all showed up to remember some of the best times of their youth.
All a club would need to do is to offer their club as a location for a once a year caddie reunion (even if these were caddied from other course), and in one day they could find many willing to volunteer a few hours a month to help create a new or rejuvenate an old caddie program.
When the Western Open was in St. Louis this past fall, hundreds of Evan Scholar alumni volunteered to caddie in the pro-am. So that is one indication of their love of caddying.
If a club did something as simple as offer their course and clubhouse for one day a year to former caddies, I believe the response would be enormous and as I said quite a few willing volunteers could likely be identified on the spot. What if that club were to get 8 former caddies to commit to volunteer 10 hours a month in exchange for free use of the course on Monday afternoons? Something on these lines could be very workable.
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All good ideas, but in this era of budgets being SLASHED, not increased, one has to understand that managing a legion of 30-80 caddies is a labor intensive job that does not come without its' share of aggravation, time, energy and huge committment by clubs and their key staff.
Anyone who's ever managed a large staff knows the baggage and increased workload that comes with an increase in personnel.
Those carts rarely have any attitude problems or complaints ;D
I think it would be hard to convince a club to DECREASE revenues by reducing cart usage and INCREASE expenses by managing and training a full corps of caddies.
It can be done, but requires a committment by clubs that I believe few are prepared or able to give.
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All good ideas, but in this era of budgets being SLASHED, not increased, one has to understand that managing a legion of 30-80 caddies is a labor intensive job that does not come without its' share of aggravation, time, energy and huge committment by clubs and their key staff.
Anyone who's ever managed a large staff knows the baggage and increased workload that comes with an increase in personnel.
Those carts rarely have any attitude problems or complaints ;D
I think it would be hard to convince a club to DECREASE revenues by reducing cart usage and INCREASE expenses by managing and training a full corps of caddies.
It can be done, but requires a committment by clubs that I believe few are prepared or able to give.
I can not disagree with any of the above statements.
HOWEVER
With the recent abundance of negative news dealing with the management of the financial and other business sectors, some private clubs might be able to justify some extra efforts towards an increased caddie progam that will benefit the kids and families of the local community.
I agree it is still tough sell. But not impossible.
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This really has been a great thread to read...and has brought up a lot of great memories. Perhaps my first post on the subject was more geared toward Tom’s first post and the questions he was raising. But inspired by Bill S’s great post about his caddy experience, maybe I can go into mine as well.
I actually began my golf industry experience when I was 15 at the local municipal course down the street (where Shivas was a one time frequenter) working the pro shop desk. That eventually led to cart, driving rage (I was the guy getting hit by golf balls in the range machine), starter (“no sir I can not accept $2 to get you out as a single on a Saturday afternoon in July”), golf club repair, ranger, and pro shop. That was a great place to work for a young guy in high school with the professionals that were great to work with and that became legit friends. With working there I got free golf anytime of the day (which in the fall senior year I could actually get in 15-18 holes with a cart before 2nd period started at 8:40 and I had to get to class), free lessons, and equipment at cost. This all ended actually when one July Saturday night the entire 1920’s era wood clubhouse burnt to the ground thanks to a tiki-torch that wasn’t put out and tipped over onto the side of the building. After that hours and staff were cut and it wasn’t ever really the same from that point.
The next summer after that I started working down the street at The Glen Club in Glenview, IL (a 2001 Tom Fazio design on an old Navy Airstrip). When I first started I was working the bag drop and range and all the good stuff I had been doing before, but also starting caddying 3 or 4 times a week. Aside from the occasional loop for one of the professionals at the club, caddying was new to me but being a competitive golfer I felt I understood what a golfer wanted and it came pretty naturally to me.
To give you a profile of the caddy program at the Glen, it consisted of maybe 60 caddies, but most were part time and maybe a strong core of 20 caddies that were there almost every day. Most of the loops were “on call” meaning they were assigned the day before so the caddy could show up an hour or so before the loop went off and didn’t have to wait around. This was nice and it made your hourly wage a lot better compared to many private clubs. Most loops were divided into either “members” (men and women who purchase corporate memberships but played the majority of their golf there) or straight public golfers. The Glen is the most expensive public golf course in Chicago to play at with cart on the weekend around $200…and there is absolutely no twilight rate. (Caddies could play every day after the last tee time for free, which was usually 3pm). The majorities of the golfers here were well off and enjoyed taking caddies as part of the experience. My fee was always $30 a bag + tip, which would usually equate to 100% tip, at the bare minimum I was walking out of there with $110-$130/a loop. Granted there were only rare days you could get 36 holes in that was and is still darn good money. Right up until 2006 when I was coming back for a week here and there from school I was making a almost standard rate of $150 for a double bag. The prototypical “Glen Club” loop was a group that played every single Saturday at 8am. They would show up at about 7:56, get in a cart, hand the starter the $200 or so in cash per player and tell him to go into the clubhouse and pay for them, and they would take two caddies to cart chase for them. We would stand one caddy on each side of the fairway to spot balls. It was the best and worst loop there, but they paid well and you would make $200 per caddy for doing a good job.
While out at school I started caddying at The Country Club-Brookline…in the caddy world the polar opposite of the Glen Club. My first loop out there the caddy master said I would start as a “B” caddy because it was my first time out there. My first loop was also the president of the club at that time…talk about pressure. When I finished my loop that day the member looked at my ticket (which was color coded to your rank) and said “why in the world are you a B caddy?” He proceeded to tell the caddy master that I was one of the best caddies he has had there and that I should be immediately promoted to an honor caddy….so I had that going for me. TCC was a totally different world for me, instead of call ahead loops, I rode my bike from my apartment on Hemenway St in downtown Boston uphill to Brookline at 4:30am on Friday, Saturday, and Sundays (and also afternoon loops after morning summer classes during the week). Half of the caddies there were grizzled professionals that had done stints looping all over the country for the better part of 30 years, the other half young kids who could care less if they got out. The pay was much lower than in Chicago, it was a flat rate except for tournaments, but any cash in the pocket of a college kid is literal gold.
For as different as it was, it was the first time I ever really fell in love with a golf course. It was the first time that I completely separated the golf course from the club, its members, the politics, and its history, and saw a living breathing piece of art. The more I saw the course, the more things I saw in it. The Mondays that I would get out of class at 11, strap my bag on my back, and ride down a traffic filled street to go play as many holes as I could before dark (homework be damned) is something I will never forget.
For all the talk about how expensive caddies are and whether or not they are worth it to the player, remember that there are kids out there that really love it. It’s a job that when you come home you are tired, beat up, and sunburned…but you really earned that money.
That money I earned literally helped put me through college, it paid my rent, it bought my groceries. And now that I have a full time desk job I look back at those time with fondness. It would be unfortunate that the industry would disappear, because working in the golf industry as a young man taught me a lot about life and is a great avenue toward greater things.
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;D ;D ;D
Tom Doak...you are one bright dude...and Mr. Cirba , thank you.
We can't get rid of the carts ,,,so we need cart jockeys ...it will work...Tom. we both agree , it;s the kids 12-15 ,,,they are the future
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It will absolutely never be the case that caddying can compete with other extra-curricular activities offered by various organizations and schools.
Are we really so delusion to assume that a 13 year old person looking to prepare themselves for college is going to see caddying as viable alternative to:
Music programs, both school and private
Boy Scouting and Girl Scouting
Key Club and other volunteer organizations
Extra-curricular sports programs
Seriously!?
What bright, intelligent and eager individual will want to be around the type of people that a good portion of caddy programs attract? And EVERYONE who has caddied and laughs off the whole, "I learned to smoke, curse and play cards" attitude in the caddy yard knows precisely what I'm talking about. More importantly, what type of parents would want their children to be around these people given the above alternatives?
What college is going to look at an application where the major outside activity was caddying? Especially as compared to other candidates with some of the above listed activities on their applications...
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I think Kyle is on target. I have a 13 year old and we just mapped out his summer yesterday.
I had a great time being a cart kid and a caddy as a kid, but I WOULD trade places with my son. That kid's summers are awesome!
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Music programs, both school and private
Boy Scouting and Girl Scouting
Key Club and other volunteer organizations
Extra-curricular sports programs
I didn't know the Boy Scouts payed YOU to be a member?!?
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Music programs, both school and private
Boy Scouting and Girl Scouting
Key Club and other volunteer organizations
Extra-curricular sports programs
I didn't know the Boy Scouts payed YOU to be a member?!?
No, but they provide a program that benefits someone well into their adult years by providing an organization to develop leadership and organizational skills under the scrutiny of successful professional.
You don't really get a chance to lead a group carrying a bag down a fairway for 4 hours.
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Kyle,
You can participate in other activities and still spend some time learning whatever it is you're going to learn as a caddie. I didn't list my caddie experience on my college application. Just because something isn't part of your "CV" doesn't mean it's not worth doing. And I still think a kid's summers should involve a certain amount of idleness. I probably would have burned out during the school year if I hadn't had lazy summers waiting for loops, or blowing off a day lugging a bag on the course to go swimming or something. I was definitely one of those kids that Pat Craig described--didn't care whether or not I got a loop. But my parents insisted I have a job of some kind and I just knew that it beat flipping burgers at BK.
But the bottom line is, I was inoculated enough into the golf world that after college (when I didn't play at all) it became something that I wanted to spend my time and money doing, and it eventually became my career, too. But I definitely didn't go into it as a teenager with that as a "goal".
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Kyle,
You can participate in other activities and still spend some time learning whatever it is you're going to learn as a caddie. I didn't list my caddie experience on my college application. Just because something isn't part of your "CV" doesn't mean it's not worth doing. And I still think a kid's summers should involve a certain amount of idleness. I probably would have burned out during the school year if I hadn't had lazy summers waiting for loops, or blowing off a day lugging a bag on the course to go swimming or something. I was definitely one of those kids that Pat Craig described--didn't care whether or not I got a loop. But my parents insisted I have a job of some kind and I just knew that it beat flipping burgers at BK.
Tom,
For the record, I was a caddie and I am an Eagle Scout.
Looking back, the only real experience I gained as a caddy that is useful for me today is because I've continued in the golf industry.
The minute caddying conflicted with my other interests in Scouting, I left. It wasn't worth it for me to be around some of the people in the caddy yard when I was given opportunities to manage and lead groups of people.
I think caddying can complement other organizations, but it certainly cannot compete with them so long as the short-term interest of the membership and club supersedes the long-term interest of the caddy.
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Kyle,
I agree with you. I don't see caddying as *replacing* other activities, but as a nice complement to them. I had enough academic and extracurricular pressure in high school, though, that catching a loop here and there (and getting to play on Mondays) was a nice break. And the money was good, too.
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Kyle,
I agree with you. I don't see caddying as *replacing* other activities, but as a nice complement to them. I had enough academic and extracurricular pressure in high school, though, that catching a loop here and there (and getting to play on Mondays) was a nice break. And the money was good, too.
Very good, in fact. However, this sort of attitude does not lend itself to strong, sustainable caddy programs.
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Kyle,
I agree with you. I don't see caddying as *replacing* other activities, but as a nice complement to them. I had enough academic and extracurricular pressure in high school, though, that catching a loop here and there (and getting to play on Mondays) was a nice break. And the money was good, too.
Very good, in fact. However, this sort of attitude does not lend itself to strong, sustainable caddy programs.
Maybe, but you'd have to elaborate....
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Tom,
A number of caddies grabbing loops "here and there" are not steady enough to ensure a strong caddy program. First, there has to be a steady supply of caddies in order for members to rely on the program. If there cannot be a consistent core of golfers, the caddy program will never amount to anything more than a triviality at a club.
Secondly, caddying as a job does not offer a consistent paycheck. It's too dependent on frequency of play and weather. No club I'm aware of pays caddies to sit around and wait, either.
As such, what types of people are more likely to be drawn to caddying? People who are looking to make a meaningful contribution to the economy or people who have proven to not be hirable elsewhere?
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Music programs, both school and private
Boy Scouting and Girl Scouting
Key Club and other volunteer organizations
Extra-curricular sports programs
I didn't know the Boy Scouts payed YOU to be a member?!?
No, but they provide a program that benefits someone well into their adult years by providing an organization to develop leadership and organizational skills under the scrutiny of successful professional.
You don't really get a chance to lead a group carrying a bag down a fairway for 4 hours.
I didn't know about 6th grade boy scouts are leading successful professionals through woods on their important weekend camping trips.
There is a big difference between a job and a extra after school activity. The sad thing for the kids and parents today is that they don't see the difference.
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Music programs, both school and private
Boy Scouting and Girl Scouting
Key Club and other volunteer organizations
Extra-curricular sports programs
I didn't know the Boy Scouts payed YOU to be a member?!?
No, but they provide a program that benefits someone well into their adult years by providing an organization to develop leadership and organizational skills under the scrutiny of successful professional.
You don't really get a chance to lead a group carrying a bag down a fairway for 4 hours.
I didn't know about 6th grade boy scouts are leading successful professionals through woods on their important weekend camping trips.
Then you really aren't paying attention.
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I think I know what Mike means when he says--
"I think Kyle is on target. I have a 13 year old and we just mapped out his summer yesterday.
I had a great time being a cart kid and a caddy as a kid, but I WOULD trade places with my son. That kid's summers are awesome!"
And I'm sure that every minute is not mapped out, and I know times have changed. I have three children of my own and we struggled a little to send them to sleepaway camps and sports camps, it's a good thing.
But the idea that my mother or father would map out my summer would never have occurred to them, they were interested of course, but I can vividly remember my mother saying--"You want money? Go to the caddy school with the rest of the fellas" I was 12.
That being said the subject is the demise of caddy programs and perhaps I grew up in a particular time and place (w Bill Shamleffer and his brothers). I offer no solutions, and I'm not the member of a club, but kids need more job opportunities, not fewer. More's the pity.
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Hey almost forgot- Way OT
go football Cardinals!
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Kyle,
Are you from the midwest? Do you think that every school child has the opportunities you list? While caddie programs are surely more rare than they used to be, I suggest you log on to the WGA site and review the Evan's Scholar's Program.
Quick story: My first year at the club, I had a caddy who I figured was one of the older ones (I never knew anything about caddies until I joined). I asked him where he lived -- Chicago Heights (NOT the high rent district). I asked where he was in school -- High School Senior. I asked if he had applied for an Evan's Scholarship, and he said "the US Military Academy doesn't take Evans Scholars." Apparently someone did ok being a caddy, as do the 800 or so Evan's scholars who at any one time are being put through college by the WGA. Thats 800 who in college EVERY YEAR, most of whom likely would not be without the WGA, and not including the caddy at West Point.
Oh, and each year we get somewhere between 300 and 500 applicants from Junior High and High School for our program. Beverly probably gets the same (Jack?), and I don't know what the other Chicago clubs do, but the numbers add up. They meet successful folks, learn job skills and interpersonal skills, can progress to leadership positions, etc. etc. and earn more than a few buck. Or they could just hang out.
Jeff Goldman
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Kyle,
Are you from the midwest? Do you think that every school child has the opportunities you list? While caddie programs are surely more rare than they used to be, I suggest you log on to the WGA site and review the Evan's Scholar's Program.
Quick story: My first year at the club, I had a caddy who I figured was one of the older ones (I never knew anything about caddies until I joined). I asked him where he lived -- Chicago Heights (NOT the high rent district). I asked where he was in school -- High School Senior. I asked if he had applied for an Evan's Scholarship, and he said "the US Military Academy doesn't take Evans Scholars." Apparently someone did ok being a caddy, as do the 800 or so Evan's scholars who at any one time are being put through college by the WGA. Thats 800 who in college EVERY YEAR, most of whom likely would not be without the WGA, and not including the caddy at West Point.
Oh, and each year we get somewhere between 300 and 500 applicants from Junior High and High School for our program. Beverly probably gets the same (Jack?), and I don't know what the other Chicago clubs do, but the numbers add up. They meet successful folks, learn job skills and interpersonal skills, can progress to leadership positions, etc. etc. and earn more than a few buck. Or they could just hang out.
Jeff Goldman
Jeff,
Evans Scholars are few and far between in the grand scheme of things. How many caddies actually get the scholarship as a percentage of participation? How does that compare to other similar programs? What is the success rate of those scholars once in school? What opportunity costs are associated with successfully earning the scholarship?
It is one thing to put to how much money is dolled out as a result... but how well is that money being put to use? How does it compete with other similar opportunities?
I am certainly not arguing that caddying is a useless endeavour, but to lament the fact that caddy programs are floundering in the United States comes across as self-serving, self-delusion to the actual contributions country clubs and caddy programs make.
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Kyle,
I've primarily been talking about teenage caddies, not adults. Their priorities are different. When it comes to teenagers, I don't think your last question is really applicable. Obviously you need a group of committed kids at the core of the program. But I don't think this is something that can be demanded of all teenagers, and this is a group that basically self-selects. It depends on the facility, of course, but at some clubs I think it's good to have an "outer circle" of irregulars as well.
Some of these kids may not even be golfers themselves and will need to be taught practically everything. But someone's gotta take the Haverkamps at three in the afternoon, and I don't see anything wrong with that. These kids may get less out of the experience than the "A" caddies, but down the line they're still more likely to become golfers than the kid flipping burgers all summer.
I'm only speaking from my own (outdated) experience, but I guess what I'm saying is it takes all kinds. Looking back, I'm grateful that I was given the opportunity to essentially learn the game, its rules and its etiquette basically from nothing. I do not come from a "golfing family", so it was my first exposure to the sport, and the customs do take some learning. I'm sure guys like you and Pat Craig were infinitely better caddies than I was, but that's beside the point. My hope would be that there can still be a place in the yard for a kid to learn a few things who isn't coming to the job with a wealth of prior experience. After all, if the goal isn't to become a Tour caddie, the value of an activity like caddying is abstract, and it means different things to different people. I was half a dozen years removed from it before I realized how much I'd learned.
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Kyle,
I've primarily been talking about teenage caddies, not adults. Their priorities are different. When it comes to teenagers, I don't think your last question is really applicable. Obviously you need a group of committed kids at the core of the program. But I don't think this is something that can be demanded of all teenagers, and this is a group that basically self-selects. It depends on the facility, of course, but at some clubs I think it's good to have an "outer circle" of irregulars as well.
Some of these kids may not even be golfers themselves and will need to be taught practically everything. But someone's gotta take the Haverkamps at three in the afternoon, and I don't see anything wrong with that. These kids may get less out of the experience than the "A" caddies, but down the line they're still more likely to become golfers than the kid flipping burgers all summer.
I'm only speaking from my own (outdated) experience, but I guess what I'm saying is it takes all kinds. Looking back, I'm grateful that I was given the opportunity to essentially learn the game, its rules and its etiquette basically from nothing. I do not come from a "golfing family", so it was my first exposure to the sport, and the customs do take some learning. I'm sure guys like you and Pat Craig were infinitely better caddies than I was, but that's beside the point. My hope would be that there can still be a place in the yard for a kid to learn a few things who isn't coming to the job with a wealth of prior experience. After all, if the goal isn't to become a Tour caddie, the value of an activity like caddying is abstract, and it means different things to different people. I was half a dozen years removed from it before I realized how much I'd learned.
The problem is the kid flipping hamburgers is guaranteed his 20 hours a week/$7.50 an hour. The kid showing the Havercamps around isn't guaranteed that loop. As a parent, who would you rather depend on to teach your child the responsibilities that come with a full-time job? A company that can set a schedule weeks in advance and give your child a defined set of hours? Or one that depends largely on people's willingness to participate in a recreation activity?
Looking back, I feel like I would have learned more elsewhere and it took me awhile to adapt to a full time job when I was 18-19 years old, as a result. I won't say I regret caddying, but I definitely could have done better with my time.
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Kyle,
I'm not lamenting anything. Are there 5000 or more summer jobs in the midwest for school kids flipping burgers?
Oh, and for the success of the program, ask some of the scholars. They live in Evans houses at school, must work while there, and get booted if they don't keep their grades up. The most important elements in getting a scholarship are: Grades, financial need, grades, financial need, finanical need and, most important, grades and financial need, and recommendations from the club they caddies at.
Jack?
Jeff
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Kyle,
I'm not lamenting anything. Are there 5000 or more summer jobs in the midwest for school kids flipping burgers?
Jeff
I am certain of it, at least there are 5000 or more steady income jobs for school kids in the summer.
Caddy programs serve a very specific portion of that workforce - those with an interest in golf or who enjoy that line of work. The WGA is to be commended for offering the Evans Scholarship to those in that portion, but to say that caddying is a better alternative... just isn't right.
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Kyle,
Everyone's different, of course, but I would counter by saying that the people-skills learned on the course provide greater dividends than learning how to grind out a full-time job at an early age. After all, you've got your entire adult life to master that one... :-[
Plus, I can definitely say that my experience proved to be "aspirational"--it helped motivate me to learn how to make a living in the hope of someday having the opportunity that those members had, to chill out on a Saturday afternoon and play 18 with your buddies. There is nothing aspirational about working a fryer.
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Kyle,
Are you from the midwest? Do you think that every school child has the opportunities you list? While caddie programs are surely more rare than they used to be, I suggest you log on to the WGA site and review the Evan's Scholar's Program.
Quick story: My first year at the club, I had a caddy who I figured was one of the older ones (I never knew anything about caddies until I joined). I asked him where he lived -- Chicago Heights (NOT the high rent district). I asked where he was in school -- High School Senior. I asked if he had applied for an Evan's Scholarship, and he said "the US Military Academy doesn't take Evans Scholars." Apparently someone did ok being a caddy, as do the 800 or so Evan's scholars who at any one time are being put through college by the WGA. Thats 800 who in college EVERY YEAR, most of whom likely would not be without the WGA, and not including the caddy at West Point.
Oh, and each year we get somewhere between 300 and 500 applicants from Junior High and High School for our program. Beverly probably gets the same (Jack?), and I don't know what the other Chicago clubs do, but the numbers add up. They meet successful folks, learn job skills and interpersonal skills, can progress to leadership positions, etc. etc. and earn more than a few buck. Or they could just hang out.
Jeff Goldman
Jeff,
Evans Scholars are few and far between in the grand scheme of things. How many caddies actually get the scholarship as a percentage of participation? How does that compare to other similar programs? What is the success rate of those scholars once in school? What opportunity costs are associated with successfully earning the scholarship?
It is one thing to put to how much money is dolled out as a result... but how well is that money being put to use? How does it compete with other similar opportunities?
Jeff-
You, along with Jack, make some good points regarding the WGA.
Kyle-
How many students do the boy scouts of america send to college on scholarship every year?
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Dies anyone know if The First Tee (the kids' golf program that seems to get all the attention and funding) has any sort of position on caddying? Do they actively encourage it? Do they actively promote it at clubs and other golf courses? Do they have any passing familiarity with the concept?
As far as the pleasure of taking a caddy (and of being a caddy), I am well acquainted. I'd do it any time that I had a chance to. There are others like me; this thread attests to that. There are others for whom taking a caddy isn't merely an unwanted expense; to them, golf means riding in a cart. Nothing more and nothing less. I understand that.
What I think the game of golf in America loses, as it loses more and more caddy programs, is that a very large portion of the most avid golfers now are graduates of caddy programs. Through caddying, golfers learn etiquette, and golf traditions and important principles (pace of play, rules behavior) gets passed on. Without a caddying experience more and more golfers learn golf through two particularly destructive pathways: One is corporate outings, where beer-fueld "cartball" is the order of the day. The other is from watching PGA Tour golf on television, where every putt is studied from five angles.
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For anyone who challenged the "success" rate of Evans Scholars recipients, I am somewhat familiar with the two programs at Michigan and at Michigan State.
I don't have any current numbers; the last ones I saw from the 1980's, when I was in law school, showed that the Evans Scholars had some of the most gaudy, ridiculous success-in-graduating-and-in-empolyment rates of any demographic in the two universities. The Evans Scholars were always graduating on time, with great GPA's.
I'd be the first to admit that an Evans Scholarship is very, very tough to earn when you are at a club with 100 other kids applying. There is a need factor, which is very carefully observed. (I am also familiar with other private club programs that award their own caddy scholarships apart from the Evans Scholars. In my neighborhood, Oakland Hills does it, and last I heard Birmingham CC does it too.)
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I think I know what Mike means when he says--
"I think Kyle is on target. I have a 13 year old and we just mapped out his summer yesterday.
I had a great time being a cart kid and a caddy as a kid, but I WOULD trade places with my son. That kid's summers are awesome!"
And I'm sure that every minute is not mapped out, and I know times have changed. I have three children of my own and we struggled a little to send them to sleepaway camps and sports camps, it's a good thing.
But the idea that my mother or father would map out my summer would never have occurred to them, they were interested of course, but I can vividly remember my mother saying--"You want money? Go to the caddy school with the rest of the fellas" I was 12.
That being said the subject is the demise of caddy programs and perhaps I grew up in a particular time and place (w Bill Shamleffer and his brothers). I offer no solutions, and I'm not the member of a club, but kids need more job opportunities, not fewer. More's the pity.
Thats most of the problem. Most parents don't make their kids work for cash anymore so kids have very little incentive to work. Additionally, paying a kid even $32 (and this would seem to be a very cheap looper) a loop is serious money so far as I am concerned, but I know for certain that even as a keen golfer, there is no way on God's green earth that I would pay that much per game at my own club - it just seems daft to me. I know that for many club members in the States it isn't so much because they are used to paying this sort of money, but even though I could afford it, I wouldn't so it. Third, what folks said about carts is obviously a huge negative for caddies. However, one must remember that even if carts were taken out of the picture, I think that folks would get used to their own trolleys. Either way caddies aren't gonna make out. Finally, I only rarely take caddies, but what I have seen doesn't impress me. Being asked to pay $50-$75 for some of the jokers I have had is an insult. I can't recall a single caddie which impressed me enough to think it was money well spent, but then I am not interested in being spoon fed info and I do realize that I am in a serious majority, but I want to figure things out for myself. So to answer the question, no caddying cannot be rejuvinated.
As a disclaimer, I grew up in a caddie atmosphere, but never once caddied myself. I made my money doing paper rounds, coaching baseball, reffing hockey and as a baseball umpire. Between this and doing sports myself, there was no time for caddying.
Ciao
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Pat,
And how many Evans Scholars have walked on the moon or became President? The Boy Scouts do not exist to give out scholarships, but to provide a program by which young men can actively participate in a program designed to prepare them for the rigors of life.
This isn't about the ability of the program to pay for a child's college, but by what the required time given to the program provides for the child. The Evans Scholarship provides some, but its impact isn't nearly as likely to improve a child's standing in life as other comparative programs.
How many people seek to caddy at a WGA club for the purpose of getting an Evans Scholarship? Is this an economically feasible goal?
Chuck,
So you're saying that caddying is basically self-serving for golf?
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Sheesh- how did this devolve to a evans scholar vs. boy scouts debate?
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The problem is the kid flipping hamburgers is guaranteed his 20 hours a week/$7.50 an hour. The kid showing the Havercamps around isn't guaranteed that loop. As a parent, who would you rather depend on to teach your child the responsibilities that come with a full-time job? A company that can set a schedule weeks in advance and give your child a defined set of hours? Or one that depends largely on people's willingness to participate in a recreation activity?
Looking back, I feel like I would have learned more elsewhere and it took me awhile to adapt to a full time job when I was 18-19 years old, as a result. I won't say I regret caddying, but I definitely could have done better with my time.
That is exactly a main part of the problem with caddying. Clubs need to guarantee that a caddy gets out and that there is not so much down time. Do away with the independent contractor concept? Need to schedule a caddy a day in advance? Whatever...it needs to be a guaranteed source of income. You could then pay somewhere between $30 and $40 for a single caddy.
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Sheesh- how did this devolve to a evans scholar vs. boy scouts debate?
Tom,
Because one of the underlying causes of the inability for a club to restock the caddy ranks is this country has increased its ability to educate its teenagers in other areas. Caddy programs just can't compete with other high school jobs and youth programs.
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Sheesh- how did this devolve to a evans scholar vs. boy scouts debate?
Tom,
Because one of the underlying causes of the inability for a club to restock the caddy ranks is this country has increased its ability to educate its teenagers in other areas. Caddy programs just can't compete with other high school jobs and youth programs.
It may be one of the causes, but isn't the rise of the cart more hurtful than competition from extra curriculars? We're talking about jobs, and certainly not (for most) paths to evan's scholarships.
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I've caddied a lot over the years and have an appreciation for it, but like a lot of others have said I think caddies have gotten too expensive.
in this area (NY metropolitan) a lot of clubs have mandatory walking with a caddy policies, that would be a deal breaker for me if I were looking to join a club. $75-100k to join + $1000 month dues/minimums/other and then I have to come out of pocket with $75+ every time I tee it up? these clubs have certain times where you can take a cart or carry, but certainly not during prime time. the argument is always "the caddies won't show up if we don't do it this way"...whatever happened to good old supply and demand? I prefer to walk and carry my own bag.
Sleepy Hollow has an excellent caddy program, but it's mandatory to use one and they are expensive (I will say hands down the best caddy I ever had was a guy at Sleepy). Westchester CC puts lots of caddies out regularly, but on avergage they lousy. Quaker is somewhere in between. pretty much all the caddies at these clubs are grown men...therein lies the problem.
CC of Darien is the one club where I've seen a concerted effort to get junior high and high school kids out on a regular basis. a lot of them are learning on the fly but that's just fine and they only charge $35 all-in. at Bethpage the guys out front ask for $75+tip. once I said "damn guys, rates like that you should be over at Deepdale"...got a kick out of it when he said "oh we can't get that at Deepdale"!
but to answer the question, the Evans program is unique and trying to replicate it would be almost impossible I think. and given the current economic backdrop I think that state of caddy 'industry' is only going to get worse. these guys are going to have to find another way to scratch out a living.
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Pat,
And how many Evans Scholars have walked on the moon or became President? The Boy Scouts do not exist to give out scholarships, but to provide a program by which young men can actively participate in a program designed to prepare them for the rigors of life.
This isn't about the ability of the program to pay for a child's college, but by what the required time given to the program provides for the child. The Evans Scholarship provides some, but its impact isn't nearly as likely to improve a child's standing in life as other comparative programs.
How many people seek to caddy at a WGA club for the purpose of getting an Evans Scholarship? Is this an economically feasible goal?
Chuck,
So you're saying that caddying is basically self-serving for golf?
Kyle, I am definitely saying that as a golfer, I have an interest in the future of caddying, well beyond whether or not I walk or ride or carry my own clubs or not.
I am definitely saying that there is a cultural aspect to caddying.
For all of the reasons I suggested.
So that is what I am saying. What are you saying?
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I agree that the only clubs with truly successful caddy programs are those that prohibit the use of carts for the able bodied golfer (TCC, Essex, Myopia, Boston Golf Club, Old Sandwich near Boston). While some clubs do ok by requiring members to take a caddy (even if they ride), generally this policy is frowned upon buy riders because they get wacked for both the cart fee and the 4-caddy fee. Unfortunately the revenue produced by cart fees is something that most clubs are just unwilling to let go of, especially in this economy. A club doing 15,000 rounds with the majority of rounds riding can expect to clear well over 100K after all expenses (including labor). I know my club just cannot survive without this revenue.
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I am saying that caddying does more for golf than it does for the caddies and this country, as a whole, has provided more opportunities for young men and women to improve themselves and their status in life.
As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.
Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.
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As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.
Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.
Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.
We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but
drugs?
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As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.
Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.
Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.
We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but
drugs?
Tom and I caddied at the same club, although at different times. I too was not exposed to any drugs through the caddie yard. I caddied from 1977 through 1992. I knew of some guys who caddied who used marijuana, but none of this activity occurred in the caddie yard. In addition, most of the caddies came from just a few grade schools and high schools in the area, so we were not exposed to anyone we would not already have contact with through school or other activities in the area. But the caddie yard allowed us to spend time with the guys in between loops.
And like Tom said, we gambled (for quarters to a couple dollars tops), some smoked, we cussed, we told bad jokes, and we talked about females (I will not explain this any further ;)).
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As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.
Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.
Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.
We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but
drugs?
Like the complaints in Caddyshack, the kids are smoking the grass. :D
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As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.
Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.
Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.
We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but
drugs?
Tom-
Of course caddies do it for the money...it's a job!
You looped at Algonquin in STL correct? I played there over labor day and really enjoyed the course.
Kyle-
First, I wouldn't start making the case that caddy shacks are hot beds for drug use and bad habits. That would be throwing stones in a glass house.
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The key to making caddying work is to have caddy's who are very significantly poorer than the people they are caddying for.
The caddy fee must be reasonably insignifigant to the golfer and significant to the caddy.
Therefor places where caddy programs are more likely to work are:
-Third and Second world countries.
-Clubs with a very rich membership.
-clubs with a plentiful supply of teenagers who want work.
Caddying will probably increase in the forseeable future. If you are not rich or living in a developing nation, the upcoming depression might have the effect of increasing the supply of caddies and getting the cost down significantly. People will be so desperate for work that you might be able to get a bag for $30 a round inc tip, bringing it into the realm of afforadability for members of non high end private clubs.
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As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.
Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.
Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.
We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but
drugs?
Tom-
Of course caddies do it for the money...it's a job!
You looped at Algonquin in STL correct? I played there over labor day and really enjoyed the course.
Kyle-
First, I wouldn't start making the case that caddy shacks are hot beds for drug use and bad habits. That would be throwing stones in a glass house.
Pat,
Why? This is a frank discussion about caddying in America, and a good portion of caddy programs with the whole independent contractor tag attract people who, for one reason or the other, would not be able to get jobs elsewhere.
Whether or not you want to admit it, there are caddies out there that are more bad influence than good influence on teenagers. I've seen anything from rolling a joint to complete drug transactions on the golf course during caddy day.
I've also run caddy programs and have told suspect people not to come back because of such shady dealings.
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Kyle,
Are you from the midwest? Do you think that every school child has the opportunities you list? While caddie programs are surely more rare than they used to be, I suggest you log on to the WGA site and review the Evan's Scholar's Program.
Quick story: My first year at the club, I had a caddy who I figured was one of the older ones (I never knew anything about caddies until I joined). I asked him where he lived -- Chicago Heights (NOT the high rent district). I asked where he was in school -- High School Senior. I asked if he had applied for an Evan's Scholarship, and he said "the US Military Academy doesn't take Evans Scholars." Apparently someone did ok being a caddy, as do the 800 or so Evan's scholars who at any one time are being put through college by the WGA. Thats 800 who in college EVERY YEAR, most of whom likely would not be without the WGA, and not including the caddy at West Point.
Oh, and each year we get somewhere between 300 and 500 applicants from Junior High and High School for our program. Beverly probably gets the same (Jack?), and I don't know what the other Chicago clubs do, but the numbers add up. They meet successful folks, learn job skills and interpersonal skills, can progress to leadership positions, etc. etc. and earn more than a few buck. Or they could just hang out.
Jeff Goldman
Jeff,
Evans Scholars are few and far between in the grand scheme of things. How many caddies actually get the scholarship as a percentage of participation? How does that compare to other similar programs? What is the success rate of those scholars once in school? What opportunity costs are associated with successfully earning the scholarship?
It is one thing to put to how much money is dolled out as a result... but how well is that money being put to use? How does it compete with other similar opportunities?
I am certainly not arguing that caddying is a useless endeavour, but to lament the fact that caddy programs are floundering in the United States comes across as self-serving, self-delusion to the actual contributions country clubs and caddy programs make.
Kyle, Let me give you my background so you can take my perspective as being somewhat in the know. I am an Evans Scholar alum from Marquette. I won my scholarship in 1982 and graduated in 3yrs. The WGA paid for my first year of Dental School in addition to my undergrad. 3 yrs ago I joined Beverly CC so you could say I've seen both sides of the game. I started at 12 yrs of age and caddied for close to 10 yrs. My contacts made at BCC are invaluable not to mention that the members treated me as they would a son or daughter. We have the largest number of scholars/alums in the program. About 300 now. Our caddy program has 275-300 kids. They can make about $3-5000 in a summer if they are motivated. My year at Beverly,1982, we had 11 caddys get the scholarship-a very good year. We also have a very dedicated group of WGA directors from Bev that as Jeff knows are tireless workers. 2 are GCA guys! Have we put a man on the moon or in the Whitehouse? Not yet, but as we are currentlyexpanding the program to 1000 active scholars, you never know . As to how well we perform in school-we do damn well-hence the name Scholar! We have produced wonderful professionals in all fields. I hope I am not reading into your comments but until you've been in the program you should not appear to be so critical. This program is the largest private college scholarship in the World! At a school like Northwestern for instance this would be worth about $200K for the 4 yrs. What does the BSA give a kid monetarily for college? Wish you well, Jack
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Jack,
I think you are reading into the comments. I'm not attacking the success of the Evans Scholar Program, but rather this idea that it is doing something great for the country of the game of golf as compared to any other program out there for school-aged children. I have no doubt that any of the Evans Scholars will find success in their lives, but really, the paths to that scholarship are limited to those eager to caddy.
It is a niche scholarship just like any other with many benefits and opportunity costs that go with any other program.
However, the original question as to whether or not American caddying can be rejuvenated brought about the greatness of the Evans Scholarship, somehow. When one considers all the opportunities a teenager has to advance themselves today, caddying and the related trappings is a small and very specific program fraught with uncertain returns on investment of time, money and effort.
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Kyle, I'm not following you at all.
If you think that on balance, a caddy program that fosters the drug trade is not good, I'll sitpulate.
If kids don't want to caddy for nothing, I absolutely agree. It has to be worth their time.
If you think that however great the Evans Scholars program is (and it is), it serves a relatively small number of kids, compared to, say, Pell Grants, or National Merit Scholarships, again I'll stipulate.
But my point was that apart from the simple cash exchange of a few bucks for a morning or an afternoon of a teenager's time, the give-and-take of employer and employee, caddying serves a cultural function in golf, as borne out by what seems to be a very large number of GCA members. to put it bluntly, it teaches kids how they ought to behave on a golf course, and for a fair number of them it fosters an interest in playing the game.
You disagree with that?
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??? ??? ???
what are you guys missing that Mr. Doak , Cirba et al see so clearly ,,,
where I grew up the poor kids caddied , the members sons who looped never made it , they had camp...music ...other interests ...we had to work ,
not having children , I'm sure that I don't totally get it, but if I ruled the world they would hang out with their buddies and work , play ball, etc etc , and not have appointments with their personal trainers...LOL!
I honestly think our experience was more fun and maybe more enriching
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Kyle, At what other job can a HS kid make the kind of $, taxfree no less. What other summerjob can give exposure at this age to successful business people and provide meaningful mentoring? Kids that have little or no means are given a leg up in life should they win the scholarship. Even if they don't they make great money and learn a great game. I'm very biased as you can see regarding the WGA, Beverly, and it's very generous members. You should never forget who helps you in life-I haven't. I would hope Jordan Wall chimes in soon as he has a great story to share as he is a current scholar. Also Paul O'Connor ,a new GCA member who is the CEO of a corporation and member at OFCC with Jeff G. This program is very special.
Jack
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Kyle, I'm not following you at all.
If you think that on balance, a caddy program that fosters the drug trade is not good, I'll sitpulate.
If kids don't want to caddy for nothing, I absolutely agree. It has to be worth their time.
If you think that however great the Evans Scholars program is (and it is), it serves a relatively small number of kids, compared to, say, Pell Grants, or National Merit Scholarships, again I'll stipulate.
But my point was that apart from the simple cash exchange of a few bucks for a morning or an afternoon of a teenager's time, the give-and-take of employer and employee, caddying serves a cultural function in golf, as borne out by what seems to be a very large number of GCA members. to put it bluntly, it teaches kids how they ought to behave on a golf course, and for a fair number of them it fosters an interest in playing the game.
You disagree with that?
Not at all.
But that's only really good for golfers and those with some interest in golf, isn't it?
Archie,
In your day, people of your means didn't have the opportunities they do now.
The marginalized groups today, for the most part, do not have access to caddy programs.
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Kyle, At what other job can a HS kid make the kind of $, taxfree no less. What other summerjob can give exposure at this age to successful business people and provide meaningful mentoring? Kids that have little or no means are given a leg up in life should they win the scholarship. Even if they don't they make great money and learn a great game. I'm very biased as you can see regarding the WGA, Beverly, and it's very generous members. You should never forget who helps you in life-I haven't. I would hope Jordan Wall chimes in soon as he has a great story to share as he is a current scholar. Also Paul O'Connor ,a new GCA member who is the CEO of a corporation and member at OFCC with Jeff G. This program is very special.
Jack
Jack,
Take a look at the internship and other opportunities offered to high school students by Universities over the summer. This doesn't include international travel opportunities granted by a number of cultural enrichment programs.
How does an inner city kid get to a caddy program?
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Kyle, I'm not following you at all.
If you think that on balance, a caddy program that fosters the drug trade is not good, I'll sitpulate.
If kids don't want to caddy for nothing, I absolutely agree. It has to be worth their time.
If you think that however great the Evans Scholars program is (and it is), it serves a relatively small number of kids, compared to, say, Pell Grants, or National Merit Scholarships, again I'll stipulate.
But my point was that apart from the simple cash exchange of a few bucks for a morning or an afternoon of a teenager's time, the give-and-take of employer and employee, caddying serves a cultural function in golf, as borne out by what seems to be a very large number of GCA members. to put it bluntly, it teaches kids how they ought to behave on a golf course, and for a fair number of them it fosters an interest in playing the game.
You disagree with that?
Chuck, As I stated, the Evans Schoarship is privately funded. Aren't Pell Grants paid with my tax dollars? As I recall these are small sums of money as well, not full rides to college as the Evans is. Jack
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Kyle, At what other job can a HS kid make the kind of $, taxfree no less. What other summerjob can give exposure at this age to successful business people and provide meaningful mentoring? Kids that have little or no means are given a leg up in life should they win the scholarship. Even if they don't they make great money and learn a great game. I'm very biased as you can see regarding the WGA, Beverly, and it's very generous members. You should never forget who helps you in life-I haven't. I would hope Jordan Wall chimes in soon as he has a great story to share as he is a current scholar. Also Paul O'Connor ,a new GCA member who is the CEO of a corporation and member at OFCC with Jeff G. This program is very special.
Jack
Jack,
Take a look at the internship and other opportunities offered to high school students by Universities over the summer. This doesn't include international travel opportunities granted by a number of cultural enrichment programs.
How does an inner city kid get to a caddy program?
They get to the club as we all have for the last 60 yrs,they take a bus,train,ride a bike,walk. Beverly is an inner city club. If you don't think some of the internships are going to dry up in this current economy you are mistaken. The WGAESF had the best year it's ever had last year,hopefully this next year will be the same. Jack
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Kyle, At what other job can a HS kid make the kind of $, taxfree no less. What other summerjob can give exposure at this age to successful business people and provide meaningful mentoring? Kids that have little or no means are given a leg up in life should they win the scholarship. Even if they don't they make great money and learn a great game. I'm very biased as you can see regarding the WGA, Beverly, and it's very generous members. You should never forget who helps you in life-I haven't. I would hope Jordan Wall chimes in soon as he has a great story to share as he is a current scholar. Also Paul O'Connor ,a new GCA member who is the CEO of a corporation and member at OFCC with Jeff G. This program is very special.
Jack
Jack,
Take a look at the internship and other opportunities offered to high school students by Universities over the summer. This doesn't include international travel opportunities granted by a number of cultural enrichment programs.
How does an inner city kid get to a caddy program?
They get to the club as we all have for the last 60 yrs,they take a bus,train,ride a bike,walk. Beverly is an inner city club. If you don't think some of the internships are going to dry up in this current economy you are mistaken. The WGAESF had the best year it's ever had last year,hopefully this next year will be the same. Jack
How many inner city kids are heading to college on the Evans Scholarship? What do WGA clubs do to help the marginalized kids that seek to associate themselves with their programs?
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Gentleman,
With all respect, we are getting off topic. I do not wish to argue the relevance of the Evans Scholarship program anymore. As with any opportunity, it is there to those who wish to take it.
That being said, the original question on this thread is about the rejuvenation of caddy programs in the United States. Let's take a look at what caddy programs presently provide caddies:
When a golfer decides to walk, he may take a caddy. The caddy is offered $30-$50 per bag. Participation of golfers is largely dependent on the weather, course conditions, and the ability of the golfer to afford both the round of golf and the caddy. Furthermore, the option to take a cart may exist and provide a more viable economic alternative for the golfer.
The caddy must also compete with other caddies for loops. Caddy programs are open to all who are able to present themselves in manner dictated by the club, and are able to physically handle the labor. Most clubs with caddy programs have adults for whom caddying is a major or significant source of income. The caddymaster is responsible for determining who gets out during the day depending on demand for the caddy.
It is the above that is standing in the way of rejuvenating caddy programs in the US. There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today and frankly, the country as a whole is better off for it.
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The Evans Scholarship sounds uniquely positioned. I don't think any of the Northeast programs are as established. I still contribute to Rhode Island's Burke Fund, but it is more mom and pop from what I can see in comparison to Evans:
http://burkefund.org/about.html
PS. The best summer job in the world is a mate on a charter fishing boat. During the week, you are responsible for setting up the boat/business with no supervision. Friday at 6AM the boat better be ready or else you are looking for the next job.
The fishing was nothing but fun.
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There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.
Are you sure about this? You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?
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There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.
Are you sure about this? You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?
Teenagers aren't included in any unemployment statistic.
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Simple question..
How could the normal "I work for a living" type golfer afford it these days? My wife was laid off last week, and my pay will probably decrease by about 20%. The economy is tough and spending more $$$ just won't cut it. Sorry to be so "exposed" with my situation, but I hardly think it's unique.
Things WILL get better. If a caddy program is to work timing may be of paramount importance. If it can be timed with the recovery, it could be a great success.
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There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.
Are you sure about this? You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?
David, I couldn't agree more with you. Flipping burgers for minimum wage(which I did in the offseason McD's) sucked versus caddying. The guys I caddied for were the guys who owned the companies where people worked-these were the guys I wanted to learn from. Jack
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Jack-
One of my favorite things about beverly was a quote in the clubhouse (correct me if i'm slightly off) of "treat your caddy like your son or daughter." I thought that was pretty cool.
As a side note, the last time I was down at beverly was for the Chicago Open in 2001. I still remember playing and standing on some of the high points of the course, looking over the skyline of Chicago, and seeing no planes when there are usually dozens in the air at any time. (Sorry I digress).
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Simple question..
How could the normal "I work for a living" type golfer afford it these days? My wife was laid off last week, and my pay will probably decrease by about 20%. The economy is tough and spending more $$$ just won't cut it. Sorry to be so "exposed" with my situation, but I hardly think it's unique.
Things WILL get better. If a caddy program is to work timing may be of paramount importance. If it can be timed with the recovery, it could be a great success.
Dan, I'm sorry to hear of your current hardships. I hope things recover quickly for you. The average golfer may not have the means but for those that do, I think they can have a profound influence on a young persons development. Wish you well, Jack
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Jack-
One of my favorite things about beverly was a quote in the clubhouse (correct me if i'm slightly off) of "treat your caddy like your son or daughter." I thought that was pretty cool.
As a side note, the last time I was down at beverly was for the Chicago Open in 2001. I still remember playing and standing on some of the high points of the course, looking over the skyline of Chicago, and seeing no planes when there are usually dozens in the air at any time. (Sorry I digress).
Pat, I should know this but was that the year MJ played and Luke Donald won it? Hard to believe Luke outscored you. MJ shot about 90 as I recall. We shall see what you can shoot at Beverly when the weather breaks. Jack
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Jack - I couldn't agree with you more. Well said.
Thanks!
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;) ;) ;)
Hey the Evans program and some of the J.Wood Platt programs are awesome, but the evolution of society , and child rearing has changed dramatically in the last twenty years.
My sister and brother in law aren't wealthy , but spent ungodly sums on sports and untold miles behind the wheel of their car driving my niece and nephew all over the Northeast for tennis and soccer...both their children are beautiful young adults now, with my nephew playing college soccer and niece graduated Rutgers after getting a scholarship...my sis was quite a stud athelete and passed on some good genes ....but the kids who are lousy still drive all over the northeast ....that's way cool but crazy ....look at the playgrounds where we spent all our time , except in inner cities they are pretty much abandoned
...I got a little off point,,,but none of these kids has time to work , or certainly caddy , as all summer is filled with camps tournaments etc etc everything in their life is much more organized than I could ever imagine...
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There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.
Are you sure about this? You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?
Teenagers aren't included in any unemployment statistic.
What are you saying? Unemployment statistics don't affect teenagers' lifestyles or job prospects?
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There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.
Are you sure about this? You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?
Teenagers aren't included in any unemployment statistic.
What are you saying? Unemployment statistics don't affect teenagers' lifestyles?
No. I'm saying flipping burgers for 20 hours a week all year at minimum wage is a more steady job than caddying. ESPECIALLY in harder economic times.
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Jack-
One of my favorite things about beverly was a quote in the clubhouse (correct me if i'm slightly off) of "treat your caddy like your son or daughter." I thought that was pretty cool.
As a side note, the last time I was down at beverly was for the Chicago Open in 2001. I still remember playing and standing on some of the high points of the course, looking over the skyline of Chicago, and seeing no planes when there are usually dozens in the air at any time. (Sorry I digress).
Pat, I should know this but was that the year MJ played and Luke Donald won it? Hard to believe Luke outscored you. MJ shot about 90 as I recall. We shall see what you can shoot at Beverly when the weather breaks. Jack
Jack-
I think that was a year or two before that. If I remember correctly that was the last year it was the "Chicago Open."
Hope all is well down on the south side. Go Warriors! ;)
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There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.
Are you sure about this? You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?
Teenagers aren't included in any unemployment statistic.
What are you saying? Unemployment statistics don't affect teenagers' lifestyles?
No. I'm saying flipping burgers for 20 hours a week all year at minimum wage is a more steady job than caddying. ESPECIALLY in harder economic times.
Lets look at that theory. Assume 1000hrs per yr at $7 per hour=$7000 before taxes for a year . Or you can work 4 months and possibly make 5K taxfree. Not to mention the intangibles of networking,free golf , clubs at the caddy banquet etc. Thanks but from someone who has worked both jobs flipping burgers sucks.Sadly, I believe the teenagers working at the local Lowes store is soon to be replaced by the many out of work adults. Jack
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Jack,
Possibly make $5000. Possibly. As opposed to $7,000 and a tax refund. Guaranteed.
Assuming $100 per loop, that means you're getting double bag loops 50 times over the course of the summer. This means one is getting a double loop 6 days a week for two months straight. I think we'll both agree that $100/loop is usually reserved for "AA" caddies, which one usually has to work at for a season or more to attain. So, for an investment of multiple seasons, a working student can earn $5000 if the conditions are right that season. This also does not include the time cost of waiting for a loop, or the cost of not getting a loop on non-busy days.
Also, golf on Mondays for caddies is becoming increasingly anachronistic with outings being hosted many clubs.
However, a student can get a job flipping burgers for a guaranteed pay of $7.50/hour for 10-20 hours per week year round. With an increase to 30 hours per week in the non-school months. Sure, they'll pay taxes, but it's still a net daily gain, with a tighter schedule to pursue other opportunities.
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Jack-
One of my favorite things about beverly was a quote in the clubhouse (correct me if i'm slightly off) of "treat your caddy like your son or daughter." I thought that was pretty cool.
that quote was also on the caddy ticket at Algonquin GC along with a reminder to the member to contribute to the Evan's Scholar Fund.
I do agree with the cultural observations regarding the caddy-
1. you need kids who need the money around and able to get to the course. (My family wasn't poor, we just didn't have any money ;) There were lots of middle to lower middle class kids near our course
2. the choices teens have for summer are a lot more than I had. Parents seem much more involved in the planning.
Therefore along with the ubiquitous cart there are fewer caddies. Total rounds have been flat for some time, right? It can be expensive to take a caddy, players take them less and less...
I'm having a hard time making my point here but I think but the nature of the golf club experience may be lessened without the caddy, a link to golf's history. Discuss
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There are simply too many other steady job and growth opportunities for the nation's youth today.
Are you sure about this? You don't agree with the current unemployment figures or projections?
Teenagers aren't included in any unemployment statistic.
What are you saying? Unemployment statistics don't affect teenagers' lifestyles?
No. I'm saying flipping burgers for 20 hours a week all year at minimum wage is a more steady job than caddying. ESPECIALLY in harder economic times.
Sorry, didn't realise that "flipping burgers" was the "growth opportunity" you were talking about. ;)
I won't argue with your maths but I think you are wrong in assuming that kids will be able to just get a job flipping burgers if they want one. Whilst fast food specifically will do OK in a recession/depression other traditional teenage jobs in retail will not be there, causing a massive contraction in the market. Not to mention the growth opportunity of vacation programs at major banks/stockbrokers/mining companies/corporations etc. that no doubt have recently been cut, or will be.
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Jack,
Possibly make $5000. Possibly. As opposed to $7,000 and a tax refund. Guaranteed.
Assuming $100 per loop, that means you're getting double bag loops 50 times over the course of the summer. This means one is getting a double loop 6 days a week for two months straight. I think we'll both agree that $100/loop is usually reserved for "AA" caddies, which one usually has to work at for a season or more to attain. So, for an investment of multiple seasons, a working student can earn $5000 if the conditions are right that season. This also does not include the time cost of waiting for a loop, or the cost of not getting a loop on non-busy days.
Also, golf on Mondays for caddies is becoming increasingly anachronistic with outings being hosted many clubs.
However, a student can get a job flipping burgers for a guaranteed pay of $7.50/hour for 10-20 hours per week year round. With an increase to 30 hours per week in the non-school months. Sure, they'll pay taxes, but it's still a net daily gain, with a tighter schedule to pursue other opportunities.
Kyle, For starters, you don't have to double bag to make $ 100. We don't see doubles often at Beverly as we have a large caddy corp. As far as the kids playing, they have the ability to play in the evenings on the front nine if it isn't crowded. We have a few Monday outings but just a few. Did you ever caddy? What a fun job it was. Let's agree to disagree, you can encourage kids to flip burgers and I'll suggest caddying. I haven't typed this much since school so in the best interest of my fingers and my first patient tomorrow morning , I bid you a good night. Wish you well, Jack
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Jack,
Possibly make $5000. Possibly. As opposed to $7,000 and a tax refund. Guaranteed.
Assuming $100 per loop, that means you're getting double bag loops 50 times over the course of the summer. This means one is getting a double loop 6 days a week for two months straight. I think we'll both agree that $100/loop is usually reserved for "AA" caddies, which one usually has to work at for a season or more to attain. So, for an investment of multiple seasons, a working student can earn $5000 if the conditions are right that season. This also does not include the time cost of waiting for a loop, or the cost of not getting a loop on non-busy days.
Also, golf on Mondays for caddies is becoming increasingly anachronistic with outings being hosted many clubs.
However, a student can get a job flipping burgers for a guaranteed pay of $7.50/hour for 10-20 hours per week year round. With an increase to 30 hours per week in the non-school months. Sure, they'll pay taxes, but it's still a net daily gain, with a tighter schedule to pursue other opportunities.
Kyle, For starters, you don't have to double bag to make $ 100. We don't doubles often at Beverly as we have a large caddy corp. As far as the kids playing, they have the ability to play in the evenings on the front nine if it isn't crowded. We have a few Monday outings but just a few. Did you ever caddy? What a fun job it was. Let's agree to disagree, you can encourage kids to flip burgers and I'll suggest caddying. I haven't typed this much since school so in the best interest of my fingers and my first patient tomorrow morning , I bid you a good night. Wish you well, Jack
Jack,
I caddied for 3 years in High School and a "AA" caddie for two years. I was a caddiemaster for 2 summers in college and started a small but successful program with a predominately riding membership at a housing course. It seems like Beverly is a special case (as were the places I was involved with, one with a huge, successful caddy programs) and it's amazing that your guys get that much money and that much work. I only ever pulled down $100 as a "AA" but would make $50 or so per round as a "A" or "B" caddie.
That being said, these opportunities are few and far between but for a few lucky souls. I tried to bring friends up to caddy in the summer, but they were pursuing other opportunities that provided a more steady income. I just happened to love the game enough to look past the shortcomings, and there are plenty.
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As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.
Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.
Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.
We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but
drugs?
33 years ago I bought my first bag of weed from a caddy at our club...
...I think Kyle's experience/description is more accurate than most of us would like to admit.
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what are you guys missing that Mr. Doak , Cirba et al see so clearly ,,,
where I grew up the poor kids caddied , the members sons who looped never made it , they had camp...music ...other interests ...we had to work ,
not having children , I'm sure that I don't totally get it, but if I ruled the world they would hang out with their buddies and work , play ball, etc etc , and not have appointments with their personal trainers...LOL!
I honestly think our experience was more fun and maybe more enriching
Where I grew up (now 46) the members sons HAD to caddy or could not play in the afternoon. Juniors were not allowed to play until 2. The caddie master made certain that we would all get out with early loops, we would run home, change and come back to play until dark.
Back then, caddy programs introduced many to the game, and taught them the rules and etiquette. The club rules had the junior golfers EARNING their golf, not being entitled to it. Junior programs are now the introduction to the game, and like many sports, the dream of a scholarship is the carrot dangled.
The dream of competitive golf now keeps many of the potential young caddies from feeling they have the time to do it.
The beauty of the Evans program is that hard work and great grades EARNS a reward (and an opportunity). I don't care if it's caddying or burger flipping, earning it teaches great lessons.
Caddying, for me, taught me many lessons I used as a player (I actually like pro-ams! :D) and now as a teacher. I was always completely comfortable talking with and working with anyone, regardless of position in life, and I owe a lot of that to the very successful people I grew up working for as a caddy.
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Pat Burke - you grew up in a wonderful atmosphere. Thanks for sharing you're wonderful experience!
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Thanks Jack for carrying the Evans Scholars/WGA banner. I know what a great program it is, because I was an Evans Scholar out of Sunset Ridge CC. The Evans Scholarship is easily the best college scholarship program in the country. Four years, room and tuition, 100% paid. Cannot be beat.
Every year, the WGA holds numerous Evans Scholar Interviews, where the Scholarship finalists come before a group of WGA Directors, Alums and others to present themselves as candidates. These are high school seniors, who take the podium in front of 30-70 men and women, and take questions from anyone in the room. The quality of the kids at these meetings is impressive. If you ever worry about the sad state of America's youth today, one of these meetings is about as uplifting and inspiring a day as I have ever had. Most of these kids have come from very difficult financial and family situations, have managed to assert themselves academically, avoided all the usual neighborhood pitfalls, and present themselves with poise, confidence, and humor. Not many burger flippers doing that.
For the guys who think it costs too much, this is how I do the math. If you can get a cart with no caddy for $20/round, and a caddy costs you $70, every round costs an additional $50. If I play 50 rounds a year that's $2,500 more in cost. The benefits for that money are; get more exercise, shoot lower scores, provide decent jobs for local kids, help to sustain the caddy programs, provide an opportunity for less affluent kids to grow and develop a love for golf, have an opportunity to make a positive impact on kids by exposing them to business and businessmen at a young age. All that for $2,500! For me, its a bargain.
Paul O'Connor
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As a 14 year old with no interest in golf, I'd have no interest in caddying. Even as a 14 year old golfer, I think the appeal of caddying is limited to a select few situations. Used to be one could play Mondays, now that only happens if the club doesn't have outings.
Also, I had more opportunities to expose myself to drugs and other less-than-ideal activities in the caddy yard than anywhere else, and I caddied at a very high end caddy program and club in Philadelphia.
Kyle- I think most caddies do it for the money.
We snuck cigs and played cards, picked on the younger caddies, cussed, admired the pretty ladies, wished we could play more, bitched about our loops, but
drugs?
33 years ago I bought my first bag of weed from a caddy at our club...
...I think Kyle's experience/description is more accurate than most of us would like to admit.
Hey I believe it. No doubt. I didn't see it at our club, but I'm not naive. Still--I saw most of the weed smoking in the context of the public school I attended, not the caddy yard. My son busses tables at the club where I worked as a kid and will caddy in the spring. I like the fact that he has a job! Good people. The fact that he works where I worked--gravy
Tom out 8)
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For the guys who think it costs too much, this is how I do the math. If you can get a cart with no caddy for $20/round, and a caddy costs you $70, every round costs an additional $50. If I play 50 rounds a year that's $2,500 more in cost. The benefits for that money are; get more exercise, shoot lower scores, provide decent jobs for local kids, help to sustain the caddy programs, provide an opportunity for less affluent kids to grow and develop a love for golf, have an opportunity to make a positive impact on kids by exposing them to business and businessmen at a young age. All that for $2,500! For me, its a bargain.
Paul O'Connor
Paul -
I agree with the benefits you list - although career caddies take much of the luster away from the benefits to kids argument.
I also disagree with posts suggesting it is difficult to get kids to caddie. Our training classes each year have large numbers of kids.
However, for the extra $2500 you list ($3500 without the cart), I can play another 50 rounds at very good public courses and get more than double the exercise carrying my bag. Alternately I could take a golf trip to Scotland. Given those comparisons, I believe very few golfers will consider the $2500 a "bargain" in any economic climate.
In order for caddying to be "rejuvenated" a caddie needs to be perceived as delivering value commensurate with the cost. I do not think "good of the game" motives will ever expand caddying beyond what it is now.
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"However, for the extra $2500 you list ($3500 without the cart), I can play another 50 rounds at very good public courses and get more than double the exercise carrying my bag. Alternately I could take a golf trip to Scotland. Given those comparisons, I believe very few golfers will consider the $2500 a "bargain" in any economic climate. "
If it was as simple as just putting ones own obvious self interest first, sure, why spend it on someone else. The benefits are "for the greater good." Perhaps a theme that will gain additional traction in the coming years.
Paul O'Connor
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For the guys who think it costs too much, this is how I do the math. If you can get a cart with no caddy for $20/round, and a caddy costs you $70, every round costs an additional $50. If I play 50 rounds a year that's $2,500 more in cost. The benefits for that money are; get more exercise, shoot lower scores, provide decent jobs for local kids, help to sustain the caddy programs, provide an opportunity for less affluent kids to grow and develop a love for golf, have an opportunity to make a positive impact on kids by exposing them to business and businessmen at a young age. All that for $2,500! For me, its a bargain.
Paul O'Connor
Paul -
I agree with the benefits you list - although career caddies take much of the luster away from the benefits to kids argument.
I think it is interesting to note that Chicago really is one of the last areas that kids are still the primary form of caddy. The "pro jock" of the american east wouldn't make it in Chicago because of the WGA and its efforts to send kids to college.
Personally when I take a caddy now, I would always rather have a young "b" caddy and pay him double his rate, then have a "honor" caddy and be thinking of all the things he is doing wrong. Maybe that is just me being an old caddy, but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
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If it was as simple as just putting ones own obvious self interest first, sure, why spend it on someone else. The benefits are "for the greater good." Perhaps a theme that will gain additional traction in the coming years.
Paul O'Connor
Paul:
Perhaps I am jaded but I believe market forces win out in the long run. If people place $70 per round value on the greater good, perhaps caddying will expand. However, when cost is listed as one of the primary factors driving people away from the game, I think self interest is going to be a very significant impediment to widespread expansion of caddie ranks.
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Back to the original question - Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
I sure don't know, but let me tell you - a good caddy makes the game a LOT more fun. I've been lucky enough to have great caddies at some of our contry's best courses and they made a tremendous improvement to the experience.
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Kyle, I'm not following you at all.
If you think that on balance, a caddy program that fosters the drug trade is not good, I'll sitpulate.
If kids don't want to caddy for nothing, I absolutely agree. It has to be worth their time.
If you think that however great the Evans Scholars program is (and it is), it serves a relatively small number of kids, compared to, say, Pell Grants, or National Merit Scholarships, again I'll stipulate.
But my point was that apart from the simple cash exchange of a few bucks for a morning or an afternoon of a teenager's time, the give-and-take of employer and employee, caddying serves a cultural function in golf, as borne out by what seems to be a very large number of GCA members. to put it bluntly, it teaches kids how they ought to behave on a golf course, and for a fair number of them it fosters an interest in playing the game.
You disagree with that?
Chuck, As I stated, the Evans Schoarship is privately funded. Aren't Pell Grants paid with my tax dollars? As I recall these are small sums of money as well, not full rides to college as the Evans is. Jack
Absolutely! That was part of the point I was making! The Evans Scholars program is small by comparison to the humongous world of higher education funding, but it is also serving what we all understand is a very tiny group of applicants in comparision to the rest of higher education... For a kid who fits the right demographic, the Evans Scholars program can be an absolutely huge boost to his future.
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Personally when I take a caddy now, I would always rather have a young "b" caddy and pay him double his rate, then have a "honor" caddy and be thinking of all the things he is doing wrong. Maybe that is just me being an old caddy, but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
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I completely agree Pat. I did not caddy at a club as a kid but I did have an experienced amateur competitor hire me to caddy for him at state tournaments. I absolutely loved the experience and particularly appreciated patient tutelage from co-competitors in the middle of competition.
I try and start out with a brand new caddie each year and try and use that caddie every time out. It is a thrill to see that caddie return the next year with well-established confidence on the course.
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Any good caddy program will need an appropriate mix of caddies. You need the pro-jocks for the times in Spring and Fall when the high school and college kids are back in school, and the kids to fill the demand during the peak summer months. A good program will constantly need to replenish the pool with good young kids as the honor caddies move on.
Like any business, if the customers, golfers, recognize and appreciate the value of the services provided, they will pay an amount sufficient to bring a quality supply of those services. Good caddies, like good anything, are not cheap.
Paul O'Connor
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Any good caddy program will need an appropriate mix of caddies. You need the pro-jocks for the times in Spring and Fall when the high school and college kids are back in school, and the kids to fill the demand during the peak summer months. A good program will constantly need to replenish the pool with good young kids as the honor caddies move on.
Like any business, if the customers, golfers, recognize and appreciate the value of the services provided, they will pay an amount sufficient to bring a quality supply of those services. Good caddies, like good anything, are not cheap.
Paul O'Connor
Paul - If customers appreciated and valued the service sufficient to bring in a supply of caddies, mandatory caddie rules would be unnecessary. What is your stance on such programs?
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If people object to a clubs mandatory caddy rules, perhaps they should join other clubs, or organize the membership to eliminate such rules.
Paul O'Connor
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I'm not a fan of mandatory caddies as long as the players are walking, but I do recognize the importance of such rules.
Why should someone subsidize a program he doesn't want?
It would seem to me that if 40 caddies are needed in a mandatory setting, the # needed in a non mandatory setting could be determined based on play patterns or requests.
There are always players who could go either way and be the "swing" guys.
BTW, we have mandatory caddies as its' a wealthy club and difficult walk, but our demographics are unique.
Players can carry their own bags after 3 but only one or two ever has.
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I feel that American caddying will not be rejuvenated, except in a few special cases at very exclusive / high end or very old-line traditional courses, generally in 3 or 4 or 5 major metropolitan areas (certain Chicago, New york, etc. courses).
I am not sure that there are enough people anymore willing to consistently pay an equivalent or almost identical price for a caddy as compared to the same cost for a round of golf, at least not in most small to midsized cities, at least not enough to have a consistently needed stable of caddies.
I think that the cost of a round of golf, and the cost of a caddy, have both become a luxury to have both at the same time. You might get away with a $50 or $75 a week green fee (which is a minimum at a course that actually offers a caddy), but not an additional $30 or $50 cost for a caddy on a weekly basis. Of course, there are exceptions, but for 95% of golfers, this just won't float anymore.
I have no dispute with caddy programs, Evan Scholarships, etc. They are all valuable in their own right, although I can tell you from personal experience with my kids that the Evans Scholarship is a long shot / low percentage, due to the number of applicants vs. # of scholarships, and due to all of the other requirements like income, grades, etc. I wouldn't solely caddy in hope of a 'guarantee' of an Evans Scholarship, it is a nice 'perk' (albeit a really nice perk) if you get it, but you can't count on it.
Not tough to earn more working at a grocery store, clothing store or other retail establishment around here for a summer vs. an actual caddying take during a summer. Minimally 30 hours a week (most work 40 if they can) x $8 an hour is $210 a week, x 15 summer weeks is $3150, all of which will be tax free after you get your refund. Usually guaranteed hours if you are a hard worker, plus no days without work due to rain, no loops, etc.
I wonder how many loops actually are run during the week anymore at most courses?
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Going back to the first question, I think a big reason for a caddy program to work at a club is if its member know and appreciate what a good caddy actually is. I have looped for some men who thought they knew...but really had no idea what a caddy should be doing at any given moment. At other clubs a member will recognize and pay for good caddies.
I'm not sure this has been said yet about the WGA, but they do more than attract the caddies to the clubs, they TRAIN them to be worth a members time.
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Tom,
What was your question again?
Should it be? If so how?
I'm thinking particularly through structures like some of the caddy programs attached to regional golf associations like Chicago's massive Evans Caddy Scholarship program, Mass's Ouimet and Philadelphia's (GAP) J. Wood Platt?
These regions have done a good job this way for years; should other regions who haven't taken part get involved? If so, how should it be encouraged? Who are the best entities to help encourage it? Should this type of effort be aided somehow by local, state and even the Federal governement in some way?
Could that help encourage somehow far more clubs to do things like at least price their carts at or higher than caddy fees? I doubt anyone or anything could force clubs to do that but what could be done to encourage them to do that?
Some may not like the whole concept of "social engineering" from a government perspective but it's pretty hard to deny that the natural social engineering of caddying throughout golf's history has been a pretty amazing and impressive process of essentially "learning life at a young age."
I realize that impressive world of young caddying way back then did not compete against the cart as it may now but that might not be a good reason to watch it die out to any degree.
I just ran across a guy who is really gungho about this even though he says the effort has been sort of frustrating.
Let's hear your ideas and opinions!
Oh yeah. Can American caddying be rejuvenated?
I. ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS
A. Committed membership
B. Quality caddie master
First beyond all of the detours this discussion has taken two things are ESSENTIAL: A committed membership and a quality caddie master. Without these two items any caddie program will flounder. However, with these two items a caddie program can flourish. The size may vary depending upon the needs of the club and the availability of a local pool of caddies, but a committed membership can create or reinvigorate a thriving caddie program.
II. CADDYING should be one of many alternatives.
A. Some people love golf
B. Some people are up to the hard work and hustle required to succeed.
Of course caddying is not for every kid. Some kids will have their time devoted to other activities and some kids will not have the desire to put in that much effort for the going pay scale.
On the other hand kids can be found who will love spending time on a golf course and earning money. Some of these kids will even come from financially well off families.
We all know this. We have all seen many people get hooked on golf and even finding some golf related employment just to be around the game, even though other endeavors may pay slightly (or significantly) better. Also, we all know that some one willing to work hard and hustle hard can come from all backgrounds. I knew sons of members at the club I caddied at who were lazy and spoiled; but I knew of more sons of members who were also willing to work hard and were expected to earn some of their own spending money, and some of these kids caddied at other clubs (and subsequently their dads were the best to caddie for and the best tippers having heard what their own sons encountered).
III. FOCUS ON GETTING KIDS STARTED AT AGE 12-13
Very few memberships will want to support a thriving caddie program where it will cost over $50 per round to have caddie on a weekly basis.
A 12 or 13 year old has few other opportunites to earn money and will work for $35 for fours hours work (even though this included waiting 1 to 2 hours for the loop). A quality caddie master and a committed membership can develope these kids from bag toters in to caddies within 2 years. By the time the kids reach 16 enough will continue to caddie for a $80 double, and for the extra benefits (free golf on Monday, being on the golf course, spending time with enjoyable people, and for a few a shot at a scholarship).
IV. GOVERNMENT
A. No government assistance
B. Limited government involvement - Keep caddies as independent contractors
1. The economics of caddying do not otherwise work
2. Almost no history of exploitation of caddies as independent contractors
Finally, the only thing government should do is allow this programs to flourish. No financial or other government support is required. The kids can not caddie in the dark so their time caddying during the school year will be limited to weekends and possibly a quick nine after school in September and May.
BUT government must allow these jobs to remain classified as "independent contractors". Why should government allow this classification to continue? The economics only work for the majority of caddie programs with the caddies as independent contractors. The benefits to the community for having a thriving caddie program are quite clear (see my initial post in this discussion). And in conclusion, there is a very clear and extensive record going back for decades of caddies not being exploited due to this classification. Rather the majority of kids who have caddied have benefited from this experience.
V. CADDYING is not for every kid; but should be one of the alternatives
I understand that for some kids other activities and jobs will be more beneficial to them than will caddying. But for those kids who do not have these advantage available to them, what is the better alternative: working at a fast food restaurant or caddying (will that fast food restaurant say "you do not need to work school nights, or you do not need to come in when it interferes with another school activity"); working at the mall or caddying; sitting around the house playing Wii all weekend or caddying.
Of course caddying is not for every kid, of course some kids in some caddie yards will encounter the wrong crowd; but none of this eliminates the possibility of a quality caddie program as being one the alternatives kids and parents should have available to them.
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Dave,
Enzo the Baker started as a caddy, and one night snuck into the kitchen at the club and started making petit fours, and the rest was history. ;D
Jeff
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>:( ;) >:( ??? ??? ???
Help! Calling Tom Doak or Mike Cirba....I can't elucidate it for whatever reason.
TEP asked If "American caddying can be rejuvenuted " and it can. But first we need a history lesson, and to understand what it brought. Over the last two decades golf , and it's culture has changed dramatically. The PGA Tour , and one Mr Tiger Woods , who I greatly admire, changed it almost as significantly as the great Arnold Palmer did.
Arnold was a workingman playing an elitiist game, he had game and tons, tons of heart...which Americans loved , he grew the game exponentially. as Americans reaped the riches of the post war era. Despite Arnold's bringing the game to the masses , their existed a reverence for tradition , and history . The game was still bigger than the business.
I'm going to indict the PGA TOUR for trying to squeeze every last shekel out of the game. Witness also the USGA, which became a money printing machine. Imagine that Merion isn't big enough to host the US OPEN , and the lenghts (literally and figuratively the club has gone to be re-considered) . Gimme a break.....
With Tiger as it's poster child and an army of machine like ball stikers , the TOUR became golf , it was Madison Avenue all the way. To that end, does anyone out their see how the local PGA chapters and the respect golf pro's get has been diminished.
When I worked at Woodcrest head pro Tim DeBaufre was a hero to me, as was teaching pro Vince Sullivan. Same thing with Tommy Elder (caddy master at Pine Valley) but I digress
It's all about the money...sad but true... when I hear all you guys who love golf enough to post on a web site abut architecture adding up the costs, it drives the point home quite clearly. We'll always have the elite clubs as a last bastion of looping, what we need is some grass roots participation....there . I've said it again.....
My buddies are rich , middle class and poor....we all play golf for the camaraderie and the action , probably in that order.
No one in our group would begrudge a kid making five bucks a head to run around the course with us, finding balls and giving whatever help they can on the course....no one I know likes losing their high priced pellets, or a match because of same . I'm thinking that the kids could make anywhere from $35 to $100 bucks a day , depending on their motivation (two loops)and skill . Multiply this by the three or four days a week they could find work at our club and you have $150 to $300 a week CASH for someone making nothing .... now we're talking....how many of your twelve to fifteen year olds make any money , much less $300 a week iin the summer and some extra on weekends duing the shoulder seasons...how many of you guys had paper routes, they don't exist any more to the best of my knowledge... Now the guy who delivers my paper bills me online and only sees me at Christmas ...times change ....but there is hope for caddying
If only the golf pro , a real golf pro , would be once again the "man " at the club there would be more hope for caddying....I'm thinking this economic tsunami we are going to go thru will change golf again....hopefully less corporate and more personal ...in fact , if my movie makes or I find a rich sponsor , or maybe one of you guys will hit it rich and not care about blowing some of the loot.....we'll have caddies...and some of them will grow to be characters ...and the place will be about golf...and fabulous!
"I had a Dream"
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Finally, I'd love to know how much some of the guys who tout "contacts made through caddying" are padding that benefit, or whether it's real. Honestly, I caddied for some real fat cat employers over the years, but it never dawned on me to hit them up for a job. Maybe that's because I just didn't feel it was appropriate or maybe it's because as it turned out, I didn't need much help in that regard, but how often do people really do that? And does it work? Let's hear it guys: in a tough job market for college kids, should they be sending resumes to their former loops asking them to open a few doors for them? I'm sure folks would be happy to help...and if such things do happen regularly, that's a real benefit worth touting. I happen to think it doesn't happen as often as folks say it does (except, of course, at the Evans Scholar level), but I'm willing to be proven wrong...
Dave,
I too made the point that caddying helped get my work career started. Of course I did not call a member and say "What time should I start at your bank on Monday" (and I know this is not what you were thinking). So let me explain how I used caddying to get a job.
First, I caddied all through college. Although I never had a summer internship, even if a kid did get a summer internship, they could still caddie on weekends. Some members were very happy to hear how this long-time caddie was doing in college and what his career aspirations were. I did not spend four hours asking for career tips. But even just one of the walks down one fairway talking about what I wanted to do after college resulted in some occasional helpful feedback.
Second, once I had my degree I sent a letter to any member involved in my field of interest. This letter never asked for a job. I asked if that member had a little bit of time to meet with me and to offer any advice in how I could get into that field. I also stated that I would call that member to see if it was possible to meet and when it would be most convenient to that person. Of course I also enclosed a copy of my resume. A few members were of no assistance. Quite a few talked to me about what I wanted to do and offered some bit of advice. Then a good number arranged an interview for me with someone at their place of employment. Some interviews were with HR, but others were with some high placed people.
After sending maybe 100 of these letters, and after over a dozen interviews, I got my first job. That was with an insurance company in St. Louis. More than a decade later I am still in the insurance industry and doing well.
I was not the exception. I know other guys I caddied with who got jobs through other members. Some also in insurance, others in sales, some with law firms, etc. Not every kid who caddies can plan on a job through the membership. But every kid who sticks with caddying, who knows how to present himself well, and knows who to make his aspirations known without being burdensome, can definitely create some helpful contacts. Think about it, if you have seen a caddie develop from 7th grade to college graduate and have had a handful of conversations with that kid, you will probably have enough of a gut feeling for that kid to know if you are comfortable in saying to someone, “he/she is a good worker, diligent, can carry on an intelligent conversation, and is worth spending time to see if he/she can be a beneficial hire”.
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Regarding the history of caddying, has anyone thought to consider why golfers started using them in the first place?
I can't be sure, but my assumption is that it was simply because they were too lazy to carry their own bags. It had nothing to do with mentoring or any other charitable or altruistic endeavor.
Well...carts serve that purpose now (where they are available). The simple truth is that most golfers don't want to walk, and they certainly don't want to pay more to walk than ride (even if someone is carrying their bag).
I know I’m not splitting atoms here, but the golf cart has ruined the caddie. It has given the American golfer a lazier and cheaper alternative.
Caddies may have their place in some regions, and at the most elite of private clubs and resorts, but the average golfer does not want or need their service. What else really matters?
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Cabell - what killed the caddy? The answer is in Caddyshack. Yep - that movie.
In it, the Brian Doyle Murray character warns the caddies that there's been too much fighting, too much bad caddying, too much mischief, etc - and that they'd be replaced by caddies.
Nothing quite like meeting your caddy only to smell last night's booze on his breath.
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Is the average players perception of the caddy the same role as on the tour?
It is caddy vs. the cart.
What ever mgmt can do to encourage the caddy is all that will work.
A caddy will speed up play and generate more revenue.
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Is the average players perception of the caddy the same role as on the tour?
It is caddy vs. the cart.
What ever mgmt can do to encourage the caddy is all that will work.
A caddy will speed up play and generate more revenue.
How will a caddie increase revenue?Sped up play = more green fees?
The "average" golfer thinks a caddie is what you drive to the golf course.Getting them to pay money for the "privilege" of physical exertion is a stretch.
As someone who has looked at starting a caddie program from a lot of angles,I just don't think it's possible.Those golfers for whom a caddie is an added value are a dying breed.
I truly envy the people in Chicago and what the WGA/Evans provides.I just don't think it can ever be re-created.
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Is the average players perception of the caddy the same role as on the tour?
That is a big part of the problem. Most people who use a caddy inexplicably forget how to gauge distance and read greens. This leads to nothing but slower play.
It also creates a level of expectation that forces the cost of the service up. These days many people expect their caddy to not only carry their bag, replace, divots and rake sand traps, but to be experts at reading greens and gauging distance and wind conditions. They also expect him/or her to have the personality of Robin Williams with the psychological prowess of Bob Rotella. Anything short of that is basically a bad caddy.
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Cabell,
I just want a nice person with whom I can share a laugh. I sure don't mind raking my own bunkers if it helps the caddy out - epecially if he's carrying 2 bags.
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A lot of comment on here about 12-15 year old kids being a good target for being caddies. I think the Fair Labor Standards Act is going to come into play in a caddie situation and not even allow caddies that young to work.
ALso, as a practical matter a caddie may need to be able to operate a golf car from time to time as part of the job and kids 15 and under are not licensed drivers in most states.
I am not a lawyer and would love for someone who knows to comment on FLSA restrictions on kids 15 and under working at all.
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Archie:
I hear what you are saying. This discussion doesn't have to be about the "economics" of caddying, it should also be about golf and the future of golf, and how getting young kids involved at a forecaddying level would not be taking money away from any part of the operation, but would get them outdoors and offline and around golf and golfers.
The amazing thing to me is that ten years ago nobody begrudged the idea of tipping a kid $5 to take their bag FROM THE BAG RACK TO THE TRUNK OF THEIR CAR, but can't figure out how to justify paying him $10-15 to do that AND TO FORECADDIE FOR 18 HOLES!
P.S. It isn't just the Tour and the USGA that deserve the blame for golf becoming about money ... have you ever gone to the PGA Show or the GCSAA show? Darn near everybody there is chasing money around, and they have been for the last 20-25 years.
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Chris:
You may be right on your last post, and if so, it just goes to show how messed up this country is. Organized labor does not need to be protecting the golf cart manufacturers!
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Agreed that if I was even close to correct on my last post it's a sad thing for our country. I will say though that years of watching even licensed teenagers drive (cars and golf carts) leads me to believe that under 15 is way too immature to drive as part of a job descritpion. I am still amazed at the number of wrecks resulting from parents who let their kids "drive" golf carts >:(
My dad and his family learned the game as caddies, I was fortunate and grew up playing junior golf and was exposed to the game that way. I have caddied in USGA championships and on the PGA tour a couple of times but only for "fun" and I appreciate that the player-caddie relationship is worth preserving when and wherever possible.
I also agree that focusing on the economics alone would not leave much hope for a rejuvination of caddie programs and obviously I choose to "donate" some of my money because I would like to keep a unique and special part of the game alive at my club. I totally understand though that most people can not justify this extra cost.
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A lot of comment on here about 12-15 year old kids being a good target for being caddies. I think the Fair Labor Standards Act is going to come into play in a caddie situation and not even allow caddies that young to work.
ALso, as a practical matter a caddie may need to be able to operate a golf car from time to time as part of the job and kids 15 and under are not licensed drivers in most states.
I am not a lawyer and would love for someone who knows to comment on FLSA restrictions on kids 15 and under working at all.
Even if allowable,do you really want the liability?How can a club really expect a 15 year old to comply with independent contractor status rules?
The world has changed.Sending a 15 year old(or younger) out is an accident waiting to happen.I wish we could allow every kid in town the opportunity to caddie and earn a few shekels.The reality is that a club will get sued by someone for something.No sane club would fade that come bet.Nobody is that civic minded.
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RE: Caddying at age 12.
This is current status quo. Many caddie programs allow kids to begin caddying at age 12, and this employment is in compliance with most child labor laws. The liability is minimal. Most golf course injuries (other than the maintance crew) involve golf carts. In 15 years of caddying, I remember nothing more than a few kids overcome by the heat. And these situations required nothing more than the caddie needing to come in and get water and rest and come back the next day.
The only trip to the hospital for a non-maintenence crew employee I recall was the kid picking up golf balls on the driving range. And this job was an employee of the club.
I am sure that some on this site can recall some injury by a caddie. But caddying is no more dangerous than the activities that same kid will encounter at summer camp (overseen by a lot of counselors barely high school age).
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8) 8) 8)
lhelp me please....Mike ...Tom
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Archie:
I hear what you are saying. This discussion doesn't have to be about the "economics" of caddying, it should also be about golf and the future of golf, and how getting young kids involved at a forecaddying level would not be taking money away from any part of the operation, but would get them outdoors and offline and around golf and golfers.
The amazing thing to me is that ten years ago nobody begrudged the idea of tipping a kid $5 to take their bag FROM THE BAG RACK TO THE TRUNK OF THEIR CAR, but can't figure out how to justify paying him $10-15 to do that AND TO FORECADDIE FOR 18 HOLES!
P.S. It isn't just the Tour and the USGA that deserve the blame for golf becoming about money ... have you ever gone to the PGA Show or the GCSAA show? Darn near everybody there is chasing money around, and they have been for the last 20-25 years.
Tom
I think its naive to believe that the main discussion point of caddies for most people would not be be the price point. One chap was throwing around a figure of $2500 like it was chump change. Jeepers, if my memberships cost that a year I would drop them. We all have priorities and responsibilities and I don't believe providing jobs for 13 year olds to the tune of $2500 to carry a bag I am quite happy to do myself is one of mine. I am happy to discuss the future of golf, but I happen to believe (as has been the case for many a year), that the heart of the game lies with the public player who has probably never taken a caddie and is looking for a cheap and cheerful game of golf followed by a few Bud longnecks. Perhaps we get a skewed perception of the game from our ivory tower, but caddies are neither here nor there where the future of the game is concerned.
Ciao
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RE: Caddying at age 12.
This is current status quo. Many caddie programs allow kids to begin caddying at age 12, and this employment is in compliance with most child labor laws. The liability is minimal. Most golf course injuries (other than the maintance crew) involve golf carts. In 15 years of caddying, I remember nothing more than a few kids overcome by the heat. And these situations required nothing more than the caddie needing to come in and get water and rest and come back the next day.
The only trip to the hospital for a non-maintenence crew employee I recall was the kid picking up golf balls on the driving range. And this job was an employee of the club.
I am sure that some on this site can recall some injury by a caddie. But caddying is no more dangerous than the activities that same kid will encounter at summer camp (overseen by a lot of counselors barely high school age).
I agree that an incident is a 1/1,000,000.But what Board would prudently shoulder that risk?Especially if there isn't much benefit gained in the members'/Board's estimation.
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Thank you Sean and Shiv for some mainstream perspective on this whole discussion. There are many possible reasons someone might wish to have the services of a caddie and/or provide employment as such to a young person. None of those reasons appeal to more than a tiny fraction (much less than a percent in my estimation) of USA golfers.
The fact that "supporting" caddies in one way or another is an activity appealing only to a small elite makes no argument for good or ill concerning those who want caddies, those who don't want caddies or the caddies themselves. But asking how caddying can be rejuvenated is akin to asking how we might go about trebling the number of opera companies extant. It is only a meaningful question for a very limited definition of "rejuvenated".
I think it is a very enlightening aspect of this discussion that it seems to be in the top 1% of popularity among threads initiated on this forum in the last year or two.
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I am a member of a very nice club in Atlanta; it has hosted PGA tour events and was in the Top 100 at one time.
We have about 10-20 caddies and the fee is $50 for 18 holes; that $50 is a minimum. I take one as often as I can but with my annual income I should probably never take one. I love golf and hate to ride in a cart but if in one week I happen to be able to play more then 1x there is no way I can pay a caddie; I have to take a cart because you can't walk without a caddie before 2:00 pm any day of the week. All of our caddies have been there for years and out of say 15 regular caddies, 12 are plain terrible.
To me that is everything that is wrong with American golf; it basically discourages anyone from walking unless you are wealthy enough that an extra $60 per round does not matter.
As long as the cost of a caddie is over $30 per round then it will never flourish; I wish our club would illeminate carts for everyone except those not medically capable and allow people to walk; that way the wealthy would finance the caddies and the rest of us would be able to play golf how it was meant to be; walking from hole to hole.
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When I was 12 driving carts from the barn to the shop it was the old caddy that backed one into the creek - 7' high retaining wall.... he wasn't hurt. :)
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I usually walk and carry my own bag, only riding when course policy or the situation -- golf outings, etc. mandate it. The rare occasions when I've had a caddie (at private clubs and resorts) were very enjoyable.
As much as I'd like to see caddie programs in widespread use, I don't think it'll ever happen. Cart revenue is too important to public access course operators. There isn't much support for the majority of golfers either. Most have grown up with carts and don't see the need to play on foot.
I applaud the clubs that support caddie programs. But I don't think will ever see anything like the days when a kid could enter the caddie yard, be inspired to take up the game and , if he was dedicated and skillful enough, rise to the heights of Hogan and Nelson.
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"In contrast, I abhor paying the dissheveled degenerate...honestly, in the latter case, I feel like an accomplice."
David Schmidt:
You know, that remark really does identify you as one of these modern people who have basically turned the realities of life squarely on its head. You people wrap yourselves up in guilt assuaging blankets with such words and concepts as "Enabler" or even "Co-Dependency" or "Tough-Love" solutions!
It's all bullshit Mr. Schmidt. Even disshelved degenerate caddies have to eat AND DRINK too, you know? Have you forgotten this?
Furthermore, the dissheveled degenerate caddy-type is very much part of the rich history and glorious tapestry of the game of golf!!
If you don't support it you are nothing more than a anti-purist and a murderer of the TRADITIONS of golf and you should be made to be damned ashamed of your own self-----you, you....self-righteous prig-meister!!
However, the ultimate question of this post is does it or doesn't it need some kind of emoticom like a little round smiley face?
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Any good caddy program will need an appropriate mix of caddies. You need the pro-jocks for the times in Spring and Fall when the high school and college kids are back in school, and the kids to fill the demand during the peak summer months. A good program will constantly need to replenish the pool with good young kids as the honor caddies move on.
Like any business, if the customers, golfers, recognize and appreciate the value of the services provided, they will pay an amount sufficient to bring a quality supply of those services. Good caddies, like good anything, are not cheap.
Paul O'Connor
Paul - If customers appreciated and valued the service sufficient to bring in a supply of caddies, mandatory caddie rules would be unnecessary. What is your stance on such programs?
so you are suggesting that we let the laws of good ol' supply-and-demand take over and let the chips fall where they may? what a novel concept!
Tom Doak, it's always all about the Benjamin's - period. and mandatory use of caddies is subsidization in its starkest form. maybe if a club did the opposite, capped the rate at say $35, then the pro's would go elsewhere and the kids would have an opportunity to fill the void.
as for pace of play, all the clubs in our area that have a significant caddy presence also are VERY aggressive about pace of play...it's a non-issue (meaning pace of play with caddies is as fast as any other form).
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Kenny, would you feel a little bit better about the caddie fee if you were paying it to a 14 year old who was showing some work ethic and initiative and energy, rather than some dissheveled loser degenerate lush/career caddy?
Personally, I don't mind paying the kid. In fact, I rather revel in it.
In contrast, I abhor paying the dissheveled degenerate...honestly, in the latter case, I feel like an accomplice.
[/quote]
I would; but only as long as it was around $30 per bag, my problem is the cost and the fact that unless I pay $50 minimum then I can't play the way I enjoy playing, which is on foot.
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Has anybody talked on this thread about the harsh realities of modern employment law and regulations?
i.e. you can no longer just pay the kid the $50 and he stuffs it in his pocket and heads out back of the caddy shack to lose it in a crap game.
No, there has to be an employer who withholds (and hopefully pays) income tax, federal and state unemployment, FICA, and then pays the employer's half of the total 15.3% FICA, files quarterly and annual tax returns, etc etc. All of this on pain of severe penalties if not performed.
The employer is also required to provide workers compensation insurance in most states, and most likely general liability insurance as well.
I think there is an industry, or at least a few companies, that have sprung up to handle these details on behalf of clubs, but of course there is another fee for their services. At my construction company we pay 3% for this service and it is well worth the cost.
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Has anybody talked on this thread about the harsh realities of modern employment law and regulations?
i.e. you can no longer just pay the kid the $50 and he stuffs it in his pocket and heads out back of the caddy shack to lose it in a crap game.
No, there has to be an employer who withholds (and hopefully pays) income tax, federal and state unemployment, FICA, and then pays the employer's half of the total 15.3% FICA, files quarterly and annual tax returns, etc etc. All of this on pain of severe penalties if not performed.
The employer is also required to provide workers compensation insurance in most states, and most likely general liability insurance as well.
I think there is an industry, or at least a few companies, that have sprung up to handle these details on behalf of clubs, but of course there is another fee for their services. At my construction company we pay 3% for this service and it is well worth the cost.
I've been trying.
Is there any club out there allowing 15 year old non-employee caddies to work without being under the aegis of something like the Evans program?If so,how do you verify that they're complying with independent contractor rules?
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I have played a few rounds with a caddy and each time it has been a lot of fun. Having someone carry your bag, help read putts, and bantering back and forth is a blast. However, I think the days of most clubs having a caddies are gone. Back in the early 1900's when clubs had kids caddy for a quarter a loop are over. Most clubs now have grown men caddy and it's how they make a living. Most clubs charge at least 50 to 100 dollars for a caddy and tip which is a cost today that most people can't fork over every round. I also agree that a lot of people are too lazy to walk and think a cart is much faster- a product of our society "speeding up." I wish in the future they could use kids again because it gave kids a chance to make some money and learn the game.
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??? ??? ???
Sean....I appreciate your thoughtful posts but either I'm off base or not getting thru...
the forecaddies don't have to be mandatory , they are elective but available .....they'll pretty soon know when the players who want them are going to be around...
even at a club that might not appear wealthy or opulent there's always somebody who's pretty free with their money. I can assure you that there's more action at the mid-range clubs than in the high end , as gamblling is typically frowned on at Bushwood , but revered at Old Lincoln Muny LOL!
Like I said , it starts with renewed revereence and respect for the golf professional, and I truly believe we are in a metamorphasis where the game, and playing the game are going to be back in vogue.
I'll repeat myself again, the forecaddies will not be mandatory. Some wil take them , some won't. But , without the golf pro getting back in the game so to speak this will not happen. We have to have less management and more reverence for history and tradition, certainly those that share this treehouse should have a nodding acquaintence with same
My first job at Woodcrest CC (a nice Flynn by the way) started at 11 ended up getting me part time work parking cars at parties in high school , working part time on the greens crew and all sorts of odd jobs for the wealthier members. Actually one of the members let me borrow a vintage jaguar to go to my prom, and we are still friends today . So, if we find some industrious young kids, they'll find a way to make more of the job than just the $5 mandatory tip for forecaddying.
Methinks many of thou "dost protest too much " about the cost of a caddy, I think Tom D is right on about tipping the guy who brings the clubs to the car ....and don't you think some of the caddies will gravitate to this job , which last I looked pays pretty well....perhaps two to three days of mandatory looping would put you first up for the bag drop.
There are ways to do it, and it's not all about carrying at Pine Valley or Seminole for $100 a bag, maybe these places will get a couple great loopers if we teach the kids and give them a shot. I know the college kids we had when I caddied there were very good, having learned at the local clubs how to be seen and not heard from an early age. I'm guessing they aren't quite as good today , or as plentiful ...
For me it's a lot like the no - tipping policy , which I abhor . But let's not go down that road ...let's stick to TEP's query.
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I know the college kids at Pine Valley were great while I was caddying there...
It sure would be a sad thing to learn that caddying is dead...best job I could imagine a kid having from about 12 years old though high school or even college.
I don't the ranks of caddies would diminish all that much if rates dropped 40%...and it could only help usage at Huntingdon Valley.
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I've been reading this thread with interest, but no experience whatsoever from either side of the equation. But it seems to me that if caddying is to be rejuvenated, golfers will need to become as concerned about brightening the day of some 12 year old gap-toothed kid as they are about being expertly guided around a golf course as if they were touring pros. We won't be paying for the latter, so we'll have to be content with the former -- a good kid carrying a golf bag.
Peter
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Peter,
We have a good mix of both and I think you're right...the rejuvenation would start with giving the 12 year old a reason to want to be there...
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??? ??? ???
Sean....I appreciate your thoughtful posts but either I'm off base or not getting thru...
the forecaddies don't have to be mandatory , they are elective but available .....they'll pretty soon know when the players who want them are going to be around...
even at a club that might not appear wealthy or opulent there's always somebody who's pretty free with their money. I can assure you that there's more action at the mid-range clubs than in the high end , as gamblling is typically frowned on at Bushwood , but revered at Old Lincoln Muny LOL!
Like I said , it starts with renewed revereence and respect for the golf professional, and I truly believe we are in a metamorphasis where the game, and playing the game are going to be back in vogue.
I'll repeat myself again, the forecaddies will not be mandatory. Some wil take them , some won't. But , without the golf pro getting back in the game so to speak this will not happen. We have to have less management and more reverence for history and tradition, certainly those that share this treehouse should have a nodding acquaintence with same
My first job at Woodcrest CC (a nice Flynn by the way) started at 11 ended up getting me part time work parking cars at parties in high school , working part time on the greens crew and all sorts of odd jobs for the wealthier members. Actually one of the members let me borrow a vintage jaguar to go to my prom, and we are still friends today . So, if we find some industrious young kids, they'll find a way to make more of the job than just the $5 mandatory tip for forecaddying.
Methinks many of thou "dost protest too much " about the cost of a caddy, I think Tom D is right on about tipping the guy who brings the clubs to the car ....and don't you think some of the caddies will gravitate to this job , which last I looked pays pretty well....perhaps two to three days of mandatory looping would put you first up for the bag drop.
There are ways to do it, and it's not all about carrying at Pine Valley or Seminole for $100 a bag, maybe these places will get a couple great loopers if we teach the kids and give them a shot. I know the college kids we had when I caddied there were very good, having learned at the local clubs how to be seen and not heard from an early age. I'm guessing they aren't quite as good today , or as plentiful ...
For me it's a lot like the no - tipping policy , which I abhor . But let's not go down that road ...let's stick to TEP's query.
Archie
I don't usually presume to think of my posts as thoughtful, but I don't see any other Seans between our posts - tee hee.
Don't misunderstand me, I don't have anything against caddies or caddying and I would most certainly welcome caddies of all classes being available at the clubs I play. I do use them perhaps once or twice a year if the situation makes sense, just like I use carts once or twice a year. I could see using caddies more often if they were cheaper especially if the course in question has rules about carts or caddies. You seem to be talking about private clubs where members nearly always have more money or are willing to set aside more of their money for golf than folks who play public golf. So long as caddies are the domain of private clubs the idea will never really amount to much except to a significant minority of golfers. Whether or not you believe folks have the money for caddies is largely irrelevant. There must be a willingness on the part of golfers to part with their money for caddies. Inherent in this issue is that caddies have to be seen as good value. Perhaps I am wrong, but a great many folks don't consider caddies (or fore caddies) to be good value. Other folks like me might think that they don't want the help of a caddie in terms of figuring out how to play. That said, I would be much more happy to pay a 12 year old kid $25 just to carry my skinny little bag, replace divots and rake bunkers than to pay for an "expert's" advice. I don't take the game anywhere near serious enough to pay for advice. So yes, I would support a system as you describe it.
Ciao
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That said, I would be much more happy to pay a 12 year old kid $25 just to carry my skinny little bag, replace divots and rake bunkers than to pay for an "expert's" advice. I don't take the game anywhere near serious enough to pay for advice. So yes, I would support a system as you describe it.
Ciao
Though we keep making the kids younger, that doesn't change the fact that minimum wage is close to $8 an hour....
Even if you scoot around in 3 hours, making it a "legal" wage, you aren't going to find many kids willing to stick around for that. Especially when you consider the time waiting around for a loop and the inevitable range time and putting green time that we don't factor into our time per round.
Anything less than $40-$45 to carry is a pipe dream. That's for a bare minimum young kid who simply carries your bag. Same for forecaddying. Though it may seem easier, most caddies I've talked to would much rather carry than forecaddy.
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Not broadly. Too many of us either don't have the money or choose to spend it differently. A considerable number do not feel comfortable with the servitude aspects of caddying, as employers and employees. Labor laws make it unattractive for clubs (though some high-end clubs manage around it by using firms who provide "independent contractors"). A large majority of golfers here prefer riding. Carts make a significant contribution to a club's finances; caddies, typically, do not.
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That said, I would be much more happy to pay a 12 year old kid $25 just to carry my skinny little bag, replace divots and rake bunkers than to pay for an "expert's" advice. I don't take the game anywhere near serious enough to pay for advice. So yes, I would support a system as you describe it.
Ciao
Though we keep making the kids younger, that doesn't change the fact that minimum wage is close to $8 an hour....
Even if you scoot around in 3 hours, making it a "legal" wage, you aren't going to find many kids willing to stick around for that. Especially when you consider the time waiting around for a loop and the inevitable range time and putting green time that we don't factor into our time per round.
Anything less than $40-$45 to carry is a pipe dream. That's for a bare minimum young kid who simply carries your bag. Same for forecaddying. Though it may seem easier, most caddies I've talked to would much rather carry than forecaddy.
Clint
Minors and tipped employees don't have to be paid the minimum wage of something like $7.50 this year - though many states have higher minimum wages. Regardless, I agree that anything consistently less than $40 is a pipe dream and therefore caddying has no chance to become anything like wide spread. It would be very interesting to ascertain what the average public course green fee in the States so a $40 caddie fee can be put into proper perspective.
Ciao
Ciao
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That said, I would be much more happy to pay a 12 year old kid $25 just to carry my skinny little bag, replace divots and rake bunkers than to pay for an "expert's" advice. I don't take the game anywhere near serious enough to pay for advice. So yes, I would support a system as you describe it.
Ciao
Though we keep making the kids younger, that doesn't change the fact that minimum wage is close to $8 an hour....
Even if you scoot around in 3 hours, making it a "legal" wage, you aren't going to find many kids willing to stick around for that. Especially when you consider the time waiting around for a loop and the inevitable range time and putting green time that we don't factor into our time per round.
Anything less than $40-$45 to carry is a pipe dream. That's for a bare minimum young kid who simply carries your bag. Same for forecaddying. Though it may seem easier, most caddies I've talked to would much rather carry than forecaddy.
last time I was at CC of Darien it was $35/bag all-in, kid was probably in 9th grade. he carried a double. had no idea what he was doing, but was able to keep up and rake bunkers, that's all we needed.
$70/4hours = $17.50/hr cash on the hip. no forms to fill out, show up when you want. pretty sure he was the son of a member.
seemed to work for all involved parties and was one of the few times using a caddy where I felt like I got a reasonable service for the $$ paid.
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That said, I would be much more happy to pay a 12 year old kid $25 just to carry my skinny little bag, replace divots and rake bunkers than to pay for an "expert's" advice. I don't take the game anywhere near serious enough to pay for advice. So yes, I would support a system as you describe it.
Ciao
Though we keep making the kids younger, that doesn't change the fact that minimum wage is close to $8 an hour....
Even if you scoot around in 3 hours, making it a "legal" wage, you aren't going to find many kids willing to stick around for that. Especially when you consider the time waiting around for a loop and the inevitable range time and putting green time that we don't factor into our time per round.
Anything less than $40-$45 to carry is a pipe dream. That's for a bare minimum young kid who simply carries your bag. Same for forecaddying. Though it may seem easier, most caddies I've talked to would much rather carry than forecaddy.
last time I was at CC of Darien it was $35/bag all-in, kid was probably in 9th grade. he carried a double. had no idea what he was doing, but was able to keep up and rake bunkers, that's all we needed.
$70/4hours = $17.50/hr cash on the hip. no forms to fill out, show up when you want. pretty sure he was the son of a member.
seemed to work for all involved parties and was one of the few times using a caddy where I felt like I got a reasonable service for the $$ paid.
My only question is how consistent is the work? Are there days when you arrive and have no bags to carry? Is it typically all 7 days or just weekend / peak times or the occasional big club event? Does the caddy keep all $35/bag, or does a portion go to the course?
I think that the take caddying is probably up and down over a long period, so the income might not be as large or consistent as it is portrayed here. I certainly think that if the work was that well-paying, there would be high demand by kids to caddy, they will work about any job if the money is perceived as anywhere near decent.
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>:( >:( >:(
I'm getting really frustrated here and need help from above.....TEP ...Cirba >>>Doak >>>>sullivan ....Shivas....Naccarato ....
Of course caddies will typically be at private clubs ...although there are publics that have them...do I hear Pebble Beach ????
For Sean to say whether I think people will pay for them is irrelevant is pretty bold, even if I have been accused of having a room temperature IQ on occasion...for what it's worth this is a discussion group last time I looked.....and the crux of this discussion, the yin and the yang, unfortunately revolves around the economic realities of the equation.
I think Tom asked us Can American caddying be rejuvenuted?????
I've made multiple points on what to do, and done some extrapolation on on golf's future to some extent in analysing his query.....that being said my vitae as to caddying and the motivatons of kids is pretty extensive, and might merit a modicum of courtesy and consideration
ciao archie
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A friend who's on the golf team with me at W&L runs a little caddy service that is used by a few clubs in and around Louisville, KY, where he lives. Maybe a model like this could get caddying back on track:
http://gottacaddie.com/
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??? ??? ???
Dont think I've ever been too argumentative on site , other than objecting to sticking a big bunker in the middle of the 18th at Twisted Dune .... but yes we can what Joel ? Tell me that my opinion has no relevance because of your experiences in the midwest?
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even if I have been accused of having a room temperature IQ on occasion...
Archie,
That would mean that you had the highest IQ in the history of The Bongo Room!
(http://www.dzogasstudio.com/images/AvalonHotel.jpg)
Like many things in life, times change. The Bongo room is gone and I think the era of kid caddies is gone except in specific situations. Love the concept, just not sure about practicality.
PS. Don't worry about Sean, he is a Detroit guy living in England speaking Italian. :D
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Makes me scratch my head when Mike says he thinks the era of kid caddies is gone. I wonder why a kid doesn't need an extra couple hundred bucks in their pocket each summer week anymore...
Match cart and caddy fees somehow and you'll see a great increase in demand...
Re: The Forecaddy - The very small percentage of times I play in a cart with a forcaddy, I see much more value than any caddy carrying my bag, trying to keep up.
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??? ;) ::)
I guess my beef is that you think the whole world works the same and Seans' daft remark that what anyone , evne me , thinks is immaterial on a site like this.....!
...forecaddying will have to work to promote caddying on a larger scale, IMHO....I can tell you unequivically that :
!) the average JOe golfer doesn't wnt to walk
2) golf course owners , already reeling from the economy and the failure of the "Tiger effect " to grow participation , need more not less revenue sources
3) finances will mandate more not less cart usage....unfortunately this may spread to private clubs and affect their more liberal walking poliices
4) Golfer are getting much older....and need the "buggies" to get around
5) the poor will need work ....caddying has always been a haven for same but this has to be viewed with todays economic realities
6) do you really begrudge an old looper his money ????
ps
by the way ...I hate carts so much that I built a golf course where we discounted the rate 35% if you walked , and couldn't get any traction
from the $$$$$ savings ....how much have you put on the line for same
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Archie, are you in Europe and is it late in the evening there by chance?
Yes, he is eating Italian tonight at Somers Point Pizza.
Sorry Archie, I couldn't resist! ;)
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;D ;D ;D
You know, if I knew what TEP called you meant, I might use it also ...a prig -mesiter eh ! sounds pretty good
I'm with Sully , some of the best caddy experiences are with an active ...sharp forecaddy who can give you yardage ....tend the flag and bunkers...
which many prig-meisters LOL neglect
most importantly a forecaddy finds the golf ball ...nothing worse for a half decent player than losing a ball that's eminently playable when located....we are talking both pace of play and happiness here
also he can keep up ....right on Sully ..even a youngster that weighs 95 lbs. soaking wet
ultimately ...for caddying to get off life support in the rest of the world , people are going to look for value it's cool that the Evans program and charity carry the day in the golf Nirvana that is Chicago...but in the rest of the world . it's the economy stupid ! (just a colloquialism ..no malice)
You heard more than a few golfers....real golfers ...say that a good forecaddy has value ....it doesn't have to be a tsunami of approval , just plant some seeds and perhaps they will grow!
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Carts don't file work comp claims or require comp insurance or medical benefits. Things have changed from when I caddied thirty years ago and we were paid cash and didn't even get a W-2 form. Unless the club can afford the caddies and there is a demand I see carts around for a long time.
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>:( >:( >:(
I'm getting really frustrated here and need help from above.....TEP ...Cirba >>>Doak >>>>sullivan ....Shivas....Naccarato ....
Of course caddies will typically be at private clubs ...although there are publics that have them...do I hear Pebble Beach ????
For Sean to say whether I think people will pay for them is irrelevant is pretty bold, even if I have been accused of having a room temperature IQ on occasion...for what it's worth this is a discussion group last time I looked.....and the crux of this discussion, the yin and the yang, unfortunately revolves around the economic realities of the equation.
I think Tom asked us Can American caddying be rejuvenuted?????
I've made multiple points on what to do, and done some extrapolation on on golf's future to some extent in analysing his query.....that being said my vitae as to caddying and the motivatons of kids is pretty extensive, and might merit a modicum of courtesy and consideration
ciao archie
C'mon Archie - you are getting a bit carried away. I think it is quite clear that I am not calling you whatever it is you claim I am calling you. I never once said your opinion is irrelevant. I said it is irrelevant if you think folks can afford to pay for a caddie if they in fact won't pay. I am not at all sure why you are getting frustrated. I gave very clear reasons why I don't think caddying will ever become a significant feature for the vast majority of folks who play golf. That doesn't mean that caddies don't have a place in the game, only that that place is largely insignificant. Therefore, as I stated earlier, I don't think caddying will ever be rejuvenated - if indeed it was ever juvenated (presumably a word - no?) in the first place.
Jeez, just because I disagree with you somewhat doesn't mean I am insulting you - does it?
In any case, if it wasn't very clear, let me make it clear now. I in no way intended to discount your opinion or insult you. As it would seem you believe I have, I humbly apologize.
Ciao
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Archie,
Please define "rejuvenated" in concrete terms. Do you want twice as many caddies working in the future as did last summer? Ten times as many?
Even ten times as many as currently working would not falsify Sean's assertion that the vast majority of golfers have no interest in paying or using caddies. Heck, there could be 100 times as many rounds caddied next year and that would still be what, maybe 1-2% of rounds played.
In these discussions, it would be useful to qualify the question up front to specify that for purposes of discussion we're only supposed to take into account a few thousand members of elite private clubs. It would save people like Sean and myself from needing to chime in. I thought the original question had to do with making caddies a mainstream part of the golf experience.
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??? ??? ???
yo Sean
..."whether or not you believe folks have the money for caddies is largely irrelevant "
that's the quote I responded to, as the answer to the question as posed by TEP is almost solely based on economic acceptance of a caddies value, if you made a typo...of course forgiveness is yours for the asking
now , as to Brent's query, knowing Tom Paul , and without being a sycophant, he surely knows what is going on in golf at many levels.
I'm assuming he sees it as a lost art , on the brink of extinction in many areas where it previously flourished , as I do.
As stated , caddying might grow and not retract going forward, but I see it linked to the demise of the club professional as mentor along with the need to deliver the service for less.
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??? ??? ???
As stated , caddying might grow and not retract going forward, but I see it linked to the demise of the club professional as mentor along withthe need to deliver the service for less.
Man,is that well stated.
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A friend who's on the golf team with me at W&L runs a little caddy service that is used by a few clubs in and around Louisville, KY, where he lives. Maybe a model like this could get caddying back on track:
http://gottacaddie.com/
let us know if he gets a franchise going in the NY metropolitan area!
what does an Evans caddy get for a loop?
==============================
just took a look at their web page to see if rates were posted, they are not. but what an INCREDIBLE program, I had no idea how comprehensive it is. they maintain "Evans Houses" at 14 universities!
fyi, 13 yrs of age is the minimum.
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I don't consider public (non-resort) courses to be a center for growing caddy ranks. It's definitely up to resort and private golf courses to lead the way.
That being said, the majority of private club members have joined their clubs for reasons other than the cheapest way to play golf. That being the case, I can't ever see how the argument can boil down to "I don't see a dollar for dollar value in employing a caddie". I mean, you've already made the conscious decision to join a club and pay MORE for golf than non-private golfers.
However, if you were going to try growing the ranks in public golf I'd suggest pricing the caddy into the round. Golf is simple, but how many times have you walked into a pro shop to find a menu of options 20 lines long? It's like the a la carte menu at the fanciest French restaurant you know...and just as hard to understand. Give me one price for 18 holes and include a cart OR caddy for the same price. What you're really doing is inflating the cart fee, but you'll eliminate the price difference between the two and undoubtedly attract those who want to walk. Don't make me feel like I have to dig deeper into my pocket. Make it an equal option.
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I don't consider public (non-resort) courses to be a center for growing caddy ranks. It's definitely up to resort and private golf courses to lead the way.
That being said, the majority of private club members have joined their clubs for reasons other than the cheapest way to play golf. That being the case, I can't ever see how the argument can boil down to "I don't see a dollar for dollar value in employing a caddie". I mean, you've already made the conscious decision to join a club and pay MORE for golf than non-private golfers.
However, if you were going to try growing the ranks in public golf I'd suggest pricing the caddy into the round. Golf is simple, but how many times have you walked into a pro shop to find a menu of options 20 lines long? It's like the a la carte menu at the fanciest French restaurant you know...and just as hard to understand. Give me one price for 18 holes and include a cart OR caddy for the same price. What you're really doing is inflating the cart fee, but you'll eliminate the price difference between the two and undoubtedly attract those who want to walk. Don't make me feel like I have to dig deeper into my pocket. Make it an equal option.
Pound Ridge prob has room for that without even changing the rate!
But your argument for you "already made the conscious decision to join a club and pay MORE for golf" is utter nonsense. Unless that is the club in question already has the mandatory caddy policy, and then it's not a surprise. Frankly, for me a big attraction to joining a private club is not having to pay a green fee every time you tee it up...replace that with a caddy fee (which is more than green fees a lot of places) and the attraction pretty much disappears.
We pay $55 to play Bethpage Black on a weekend - so you are suggesting it should just be jacked up to $155 and be done with it?
There would be a riot...
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What Barney calls cheap I call sensible. I was raised to believe that one should not pay another for a job he can do himself. That explains why I was patching and sanding drywall yesterday to save a few hundred bucks and why if given the option I would eschew a caddy. But that's just me. I think it is commendable that clubs make the effort to maintain caddy programs.
$0.02, worth less,
Bogey
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Pound Ridge prob has room for that without even changing the rate!
But your argument for you "already made the conscious decision to join a club and pay MORE for golf" is utter nonsense. Unless that is the club in question already has the mandatory caddy policy, and then it's not a surprise. Frankly, for me a big attraction to joining a private club is not having to pay a green fee every time you tee it up...replace that with a caddy fee (which is more than green fees a lot of places) and the attraction pretty much disappears.
We pay $55 to play Bethpage Black on a weekend - so you are suggesting it should just be jacked up to $155 and be done with it?
There would be a riot...
And how many times would you have to pay that $55 greens fee to break even on monthly dues at a comparable club? I won't even include initiation fees.
Like I said, not many join private clubs because the golf is cheaper.
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Pound Ridge prob has room for that without even changing the rate!
But your argument for you "already made the conscious decision to join a club and pay MORE for golf" is utter nonsense. Unless that is the club in question already has the mandatory caddy policy, and then it's not a surprise. Frankly, for me a big attraction to joining a private club is not having to pay a green fee every time you tee it up...replace that with a caddy fee (which is more than green fees a lot of places) and the attraction pretty much disappears.
We pay $55 to play Bethpage Black on a weekend - so you are suggesting it should just be jacked up to $155 and be done with it?
There would be a riot...
And how many times would you have to pay that $55 greens fee to break even on monthly dues at a comparable club? I won't even include initiation fees.
Like I said, not many join private clubs because the golf is cheaper.
but a private club is not all about the golf. in most cases there's there's the dining, pool, tennis, etc...
...so just solving for cost per round isn't an accurate assessment.
I'm willing to pay something for all of that but you hit me for $100k intiation, $1000/month in dues/incidentals, and then you're not going to give me the option of carrying my own bag? aah, probably not happening.
in my opinion the "norms" are getting ready to go out the window at most clubs in this country. I have a buddy at work who is a legacy member of Garden City and he tells me that 35 years ago his Dad got in when the club hit such dire financial straits that they went around to some people they thought would make good members and let them in for free as long as theywould start paying dues.
a lot of memberships are going to face that same decision soon -- namely, do we just bite the bullet and start admitting people at a discount (or for free) with the assumption they'll help close the monthly financing gap? or do we shoulder the load personally and/or start adding to the debt level hoping for better times?
what would you do?
I suspect caddies are way down the list of priorities... (unfortunately)
JMO
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ARCHIIE STRUTHERS:
I admire you big guy! I just scanned the last page or so and you're out there on this thread defending what you really believe in! I know some of the posts and people you've been responding to are disheartening to you---it's not hard to tell, believe me. Are they wrong and are you right? Archie, I guess it just ain't that simple; matter of fact I know it isn't. All I can offer in that vein, for now, is the same old song I've offered on here so many times before-----eg "Golf is a great big thing and there really is room in it for everyone." At least theoretically ;)
I have a lot more to say on this subject, old pal, but I'm out on the road right now and frankly I don't know how to work this laptop for shit, so I'll just have to wait to deliver the Full Monty until thursday when I get home to the barn/office on the old farm that has the BIG PC and supporting firepower and which some have probably appropriately labeled "The Golf Architectural Central War Room."
Hang in there, my friend----onward and upward!
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8) ;) 8)
Hey TEP thanks for the empathy! Looking forward to you chiming in upon you r return. I am really struggling with this topic, in that the answer is all about the money and not at all about the money at the same time.
I can think of all the caddies I've met and worked with, who worked for me (more with me if you know what I mean), and have analysed the issue from a pragmatic and emothional point of view.
It's disheartening to see that so many guys don't get it, particularly on a site where golf is revered for things like "lines of charm ".
I count myself blessed because they obviously haven't had the fantastic experiences I've had interacting with both caddies and the old time golf pros, many of whom seem like mythical figures to me in this age of managers, bean counters and focus groups (lol)
I just can't imagine golf without Broadway Joe , Cool Breeze, Ace, Parker, Wags, and guys like Petro , and even the infamous Rocky Carbone , my old pal who has yet to read a putt right but sure can tell a joke. As stated I have been blessed to meet them all.
The game will prevail, it's just too good not too. In that the caddy has been integral to the game as far back as recorded history exists , their survival might surprise even the most unfeeling reprobate.
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I saw Rocky read one right...probably just one...
#16 and the hole was deep and right up on that broad spine that runs straight away from about 2/3's deep. Hole was actually a couple feet right of the pinnacle and Rocky and Richie Minimum were standing on the right apron about even with the hole.
Rocky's guy asks which way it'll break and his response was "you see where we're standing? which way do you think it's gonna break?"
At the time Rocky weighed in at abot 275 and Richie was 3 and a quarter easy...
About the direction of the thread, I think it's important to suggest that Tom was likely not intending to find a way to grow the use of caddies beyond where they may have once been, just to make sure they don't go away for good...after all, cart revenues have played into the front end business plan of a great number of the projects completed in the last 30 or 40 years...projects that may not have been completed without that revenue source.
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;D ;D ;D
Hey Jimbo , you had the perfect loopers , you could hit hit it right between their respective weights
As to TEP's query , that's how I took the question, how do we keep loopers from going the way of the American Indian , sent to a few private reservations like Seminole , Pine Valley and the like.
Even many venerable Philly clubs that you have knowledge of are hurting big time, and if cart revenues appear to be a solution, you can be sure walking bans are not far behind. People are really against paying for golf at this point in time, and $50-70 a round extra doesn't cut it....hence my plan for $5-7 a round for forecaddies, which is a bargain if the kid just hustles and finds the ball. Before long he or she will get better.
Despite the protestations , this could fly!
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I think those two could've tilted the earth off its axis with one coordinated step...
I'm with you...to me, it's the fact that kids haven't "needed" the cash for one reason or another and that will likely change going forward.
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hence my plan for $5-7 a round for forecaddies, which is a bargain if the kid just hustles and finds the ball.
Despite the protestations , this could fly!
Archie, love the plan....just want to know where you're going to find a breathing human willing to work ~4 hours for $20-$28.
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:o 8) :o
Clint ....you'd have to read my previous posts , how many twelve to fourteen year olds do you know walking around with money in their pockets these days?
I just asked one of my "moms" sitting here in the office if any of their kids could use a job making $ 150-200 a week and she begged me to sign them up. Also, caddying mignht might be a prerequisite for getting
on the bag drop, getting some cheap playing privledges , etc etc.
There is always more money than the flat fee !
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hence my plan for $5-7 a round for forecaddies, which is a bargain if the kid just hustles and finds the ball.
Despite the protestations , this could fly!
Archie, love the plan....just want to know where you're going to find a breathing human willing to work ~4 hours for $20-$28.
I think he's a kid from a middle class family, age 13 -15, who has been watching Tiger Woods on TV his whole life and thinks golf is cool. He really can't get another job because there is no such think as the paper route (1) because Mexicans in SUVs have taken that job over and (2) newspapers are dying. Babysitting is for sissies. And mowing lawns has also been taken over by guys with giant 4 foot wide mowers...
But if he can make $25-30 bucks maybe 3-4 days a week in the summer running around a golf course soaking in the game and if he can get some other perks like twilight golf with his dad every once in a while and maybe the ability to hit balls at the range when it's dead, that kid definitely exists.
$20 a lawn X 6 lawns a week =$120 tax free CONSISTENT work per week, April through September. For 12 hours work, max., the take comes out to about $10 an hour. I charge them $1 per lawn cut, as they use the gas and my mower, just as a lesson that in any business you have costs associated with the business, I take the money and put it in their savings accounts.
Both of my sons have done it every summer for years from age 13 through 15 or 16 (until they get jobs at stores, etc. and are old enough to be legally hired), they could take on a couple more lawns a week if they wanted to, also. Probably a lot less work than caddying, it is more consistent work than most caddying (lawns need mowing EVERY WEEK here in the summer, without fail), and they essentially run their own business.
Not a downer on caddying at all, but there are lots of other 'odd job' alternatives to caddying that are consistent work for kids that age. No lawn service in existence mows a standard city sized lot for $20 a pop. $50 maybe, not $20.
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John, I've got nothing against mowing lawns and I wish more kids would take the initiative and do it around the neighborhood. At $20, you're right...it clearly beats the lawn service alternative. I'd bet you see a decent increase in that this summer, as people bag their lawn service, convince themselves they'll cut their own lawn and save a few bucks, and then get lazy and let a kid do it...
But caddying is different. It's got to be the most pleasant, easy job on earth...I don't even consider it work...
I am just questioning how CONSISTENT the work is in most places, how many actual loops (actual real paying loops, not conjecture based on a possible x number of loops x $ a loop, ACTUAL LOOOPS A WEEK on average) a kid gets each day / week at most courses. I am willing to bet at most private courses there is little or no demand for caddys during the week, unless some event is being held at the course, and unless you count Saturday and Sunday mornings the work is probably limited at best. And then you have to account for rainy days, etc.
I just don't see caddying in America ever growing or becoming anywhere near a consistent job alternative for most kids, maybe a side diversion that earns them some spending money on an irregular basis, but not consistent daily/weekly money like I am sure it was maybe 20 years or more ago.
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Even if you could find kids willing to carry a bag for $25-30 per round, most people are still going to take a cart if it’s available – even at private clubs. Most people just don’t want to walk anymore (with or without their bag), and they want somewhere to keep their drinks and other paraphernalia.
When caddies thrived, it was only because people didn’t want to carry their own bags and carts didn’t exist as an alternative.
Archie keeps pushing forecaddies, but that’s an entirely different service in my opinion, and an entirely different type of relationship as well. Forecaddies typically have very little personal interaction with the golfers because the requirements of their job spread them so thin.
On the bright side, caddies like the ones Archie mentioned (“Broadway Joe , Cool Breeze, Ace, Parker, Wags, and guys like Petro , and even the infamous Rocky Carbone”) aren’t going anywhere. As long as there are clubs that prohibit carts for healthy golfers, looper like these guys will always be in demand.
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Cabell.....from the age of 11-17 I must have gone around Woodcrest CC a thousand times , 90% of the time as a forecaddy.....most of the members there in the late 60's and early seventies didn't want to walk, no one carried there own bag ... this isn't that unique a concept, hence my frustration
I respectfully diasgree with your point regarding the relationship , as a good caddy / smart kid gets to know the players intimately . Every once in a while I see a Woodcrest member somewhere and invariably we spend a half hour talking about the "good old days" and all the characters that played there.
There were about five other "kids' that got good loops, a bunch of part time loopers who showed up on weekends and for tournaments and two or three older guys that showed up when their guys were playing ...
But , as I have said, there was also first Frank Clark and then Tim Debaufre, who as golf professionals were absolutely fantastic. They took the time to meet us , teach us , yelll at us or praise us depending on the day. These guys supported the system, having grown up hanging arouund a golf course just like us.
At 16 Tim asked me to help run the range and gave me a key to the ball machine....which he probably did knowing I would sneak back after hours and hit balls....or was it so he could get the range picked for free ?
As to comparing cutting lawns and forecaddying , and having done both , it's not even a question which is more fun or lucrative IMHO and I'm not even thinking of al the other perks
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:o 8) :o
Clint ....you'd have to read my previous posts , how many twelve to fourteen year olds do you know walking around with money in their pockets these days?
I just asked one of my "moms" sitting here in the office if any of their kids could use a job making $ 150-200 a week and she begged me to sign them up. Also, caddying mignht might be a prerequisite for getting
on the bag drop, getting some cheap playing privledges , etc etc.
There is always more money than the flat fee !
Archie, I ask this not to question your integrity (from past posts, I have evidence that you have plenty of that), but simply in the spirit of friendly debate:
How do you justify employing a person, no matter how young/old, rich/poor for less than minimum wage? Future career benefits and cast off used clubs aren't considered income by the IRS.
Yes, many here have pontificated about the intangible benefits of caddying that don't show up in greenbacks. But to be fair, they are all grown up men who are successful enough to be discussing golf course architecture in their free time.....obviously not a statistically relevant portion of all ex-caddies.
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8) 8) 8)
The IRS has never been too interested in the paayroll taxes or computing minimum wage requirements for caddies...I'm sure the guys from Chi-town have much greater insight into this issue than I ....but tipped positions don' t require the same pay ...eg waiter waitresses valet parkers etc etc.
as for my personal experience as a youth , I'm quite sure we didn't complain or ask for minimum wage we were glad to make more htan our paper routes had paid
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Archie,
I was just asked about a caddy at PV that has an individual poem for each hole (or is it each shot) and whips out the crumpled papers on occassion to read to, and hopefully inspire, his players...any stories?
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8) 8) 8)
The IRS has never been too interested in the paayroll taxes or computing minimum wage requirements for caddies...I'm sure the guys from Chi-town have much greater insight into this issue than I ....but tipped positions don' t require the same pay ...eg waiter waitresses valet parkers etc etc.
as for my personal experience as a youth , I'm quite sure we didn't complain or ask for minimum wage we were glad to make more htan our paper routes had paid
Right, because those tipped positions have a reasonable expectation that with tips, they'll make at least minimum wage! Oh well, next time you're in Chicago I'll makes sure you get a great caddy ;D
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thanks Clint ! Love Chicago
JES ... the poet would be Explosion Hair Smitty not to be confused with Riverton Smitty.. Politician Smitty or Billy Smith
don't have time for stories but will respond at some point cheers
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Riverton Smitty had become Riverboat Smitty by the time I showed up in about '95...one day ha and I are in the parking lot getting our group situated and ready to go and he reaches for the umbrella to take it out and leave it in the trunk and the guy responds something to the effect of 'how heavy could an umbrelly be?' And Riverboat says..."I'll tell you what, stick a 2 lb weight under the saddle of a 1,200 lb horse and see how you feel laying a hundred bucks on it..."
Priceless.
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Sully:
I've had Pine Valley Poet Smitty a bunch of times. I think the first time he asked me if I minded hearing some poetry and I told him of course not. After that whenever I got him (John Ott and I had him a lot) he'd just come out with one on his own when he felt the urge. I loved it. He might've even recited some poetry during a Crump Cup. He didn't read it though because I think he wrote everything he ever recited to me.
But I actually remember the first time when we were over a shot to the 7th green that's when I realized when the time comes to get down to golf he sure does, then we hit the shot and start talking about others things again or he'd just fire off one of his poems. I never thought much about golf during shots anyway so I loved that kind of thing. Smitty is unique that way, that's for sure!
One time I actually told him I just saw one of those Indians he often wrote poetry about peeking out of the woods. That made him laugh but I looked at him without a trace of a smile and told him I was absolutely serious, I really did see an Indian. We always got along just great.
By the way, sorry I didn't call. I forgot my cell phone charger and the phone was about dead. Give me a call at your convenience.