Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick Kiser on December 14, 2008, 10:09:33 PM
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It's pouring cats and dogs out there... and so I'm reading back on many of this year's threads.
One thread about par 5s and their place in today's courses had me wondering about something. This has probably surfaced previously and I'm just not recollecting the thread for this.
Are there any strong or even great 3 shot par 5s out there where using driver is just not the right move?
Going for two isn't even really an option but making it in 3 is a great (even exciting) result and the driver just needs to stay in the bag.
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I think the 7th at Ekwanok fits the bill pretty closely. For many strong players, the driver might not be the right club as it will put them too close or in the face of the giant hill, preventing a strong second shot. It's a three shot hole for all but the longest hitters anyway, so a 3-wood or hybrid off the tee is the appropriate play for many players.
When the wind is pushing, the 18th at Pacific Dunes can also present some problems for the driver, where a miscue to the right can blow through the fairway into trouble.
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Even for big hitters, the 9th hole at Congressional Blue is usually a three-shotter because from 100 yards up to the green, there's a valley with very steep sides, and getting down in there leaves a really tough 3rd. At the same time, the layup is pretty tough because the trees are pretty tight on both sides, and the trees near the green force you to try for a particular side of the fairway to avoid being semi-blocked, depending on the pin location. That's all made more difficult because a good but not crushed drive can leave a downhill lie for the 2nd shot. So I've found that often the better play is a three wood to a flatter lie on the side of the fairway that gives me the best angle for the right layup. Unfortunately it's been a long time since I was picking particular parts of fairways to hit. >:(
On a more general note, although I personally think Congressional Blue is a little underrated, it's the posterchild for what a good tree removal program could yield. It's a terrific piece of property with a few great vistas (especially from around the clubhouse looking toward the lake/pond), but a lot of vistas are blocked by mini-forests; it would be an absolutely spectacular place if it had those views. The trees also make the holes somewhat repetitive: try to find the (fairly narrow) fairway, try to hit a well-protected green, repeat. Taking out some trees and widening a few fairways would, IMHO, really improve the place. It might also help with the conditioning, which again IMHO, isn't as good as it could be.
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I think the 15th hole at the Champions course at Bryan Park in Greensboro might fit the bill anymore. I would probably say that prior to being able to hit the ball so far, you might have been able to hit driver everytime. But now, to get past the second hazard off the tee, you have to be able carry the ball about 310-320 yards, and its just shy of 290 to get to the front side of the hazard. So, if you can carry the ball a long way (and have stones of steel) you might hit a driver to leave yourself 175 into the green, but for most you just lay back and maybe try to get to the green with a 3 wood or 2 iron. I am not sure if this classifies as a very good hole, certainly not a great one, but it is a decent par 5 where leaving the driver in the bag comes to mind.
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#6 at Pasatiempo. 3 3-irons. 2 putts. No O.B. that way (hopefully...).
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I recall a 600 yard par 5 at Butler National where you had to hit an iron off the tee.....
When I saw the title of the thread, my first thought was that you were advocating a rule change forcing golfers to keep the driver in the bag on par 5 holes. That might not be such a bad idea!
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A number of years ago the "Nike Tour" championship was held at Pumpkin Ridge / Ghost Creek. The 8th hole plays about 580 or 590 from the tips. I watched a bunch of pros pulling 3 iron to avoid OB left that piches in and the big tree that can kick an errant shot OB. There is also a deep pot bunker on the right side of the landing area.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/jdoerr01/gh-lg08.jpg)
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I'll agree with the 6th at Pasa, you get real scared on the tee seeing a tall line of trees down the right side, and then all the houses down the left. And then when you lay up you have to avoid snap hooking it into Alistair’s old house. Quite a thin par 5 to hit driver, it definitely stays in the bag unless you are stripping it and confident.
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14 and 15 at Shady Oaks in Fort Worth. I didn't hit hit very good tee shots with my fairway wood to lay up short of the water hazards, but it seemed like a long way to the green from such layup zones, thus making both holes 3 shot par 5s.
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If we're talking about good/great holes then I don't think the 6th at Pasatiempo qualifies. Its a great course, especially the back nine, but the 6th is a not even a good hole to me with the proximity of the houses on the second shot. I like the tee shot and the first half of the hole, but the rest of it seems very squeezed in. I do agree a driver may not be the best play, but you don't want a long second to squeeze between the trees and the big net on the left either.
Jeff,
At Butler National are you thinking of the one middle of the back nine (15th perhaps) that's a huge dogleg right around the edge of the property? I didn't really like that hole either, although I tried to play it down the 14th so I could hit driver since there wasn't anybody behind us. Didn't really work, but I managed to make a 5.
If I haven't made the point, I'll go on record as saying that I'm probably not going to like many par fives where driver is not much of an option off the tee. One nice thing about par fives is giving the player options, not taking them away. I'm all for having a hole where one has to execute the drive properly to reach the green and has the option to lay back and make it a safer three shot hole, but taking it out of the players hands altogether isn't a favorite style of mine. I think I hit driver on both the above-mentioned holes though, so maybe that says something in itself ;D
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:D ;D :D
One of the few compaints you ever hear about Pine Valley is that some big hitters were often critical that the course takes driver out of their hands ...even the par fives. THis was almost always totally off the record and only to a highly trusted friend ...LOL!
With the new tees on #7 this has changed to some extent, we had discussed hitting #7 in two ...I've got a bet with JES . On a recent trip there I diid corroborate that it's over 350 from the back tees to hit it into Hell's Half Acre .
Many good players still hit three wood or rescue on #15 , despite the length. NO sense hitting it 325 as going for the green in two doesn't really enter the equation, at least logically.
I don't see this as a real design flaw , though others may!
ps the new tees on #4 are on the way ...perhaps for the summer season
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Archie,
How far was it before the new tees were built to HHA? I want to say it was around 290 or so.
Where exactly is the new tee on 4? There has been much discussion on this tee in the past.
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Jeff,
re: #8 at Ghost - true, although I think the landing area is pretty generous. Of course, the green is tiny, so going at it with a 3 wood or even 3 iron on the second will probably get you in more trouble than it is worth.
It is a great little par 5.
The 4th is pretty tight as well, but you have room to take a rip with the driver off the tee, before having to worry about keeping your second in bounds since everything falls to the right.
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;) 8)
Sean ....I'd guess you are right at about 290 from the old back tee, which is used as the daily tee a lot these days.
I'm not an expert on #4 , hope to get to there over the holidays and take a look if possible. You'd have to really know the property but it's back over the little road and up and to the right of the existing tee if you were looking forward towards the fairway...I think it's going to bring some drama back into the tee shot, but...........I'd suggest taking out the new bunkers at the top of the hill once the new tee was open, they are really beautifully constructed but IMHO superfluous to strategy on the tee shot.
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Tee shot on #4 will definitely be interesting, but approach shots even more so...I suggested to Lenny they buy shatter-proof glass for any clubhouse windows facing the fourth hole because coming into that green from 240 will absolutely increase parking lot activity...
I think the tee is across the road and up the hill a bit...it looked like an additional 50 yards or so to the hole...plus a bit more dog in the leg.
#14 at The Claw in Tampa.
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I nominate the 12th hole at Monor House in Castle Coomb nera Bath. Smaller hitters can take a driver but there is danger of going long. It is an elavated tee, knocking down to a right to left sloping fairway - the hole is a bit of a half moon shape. Depending on far you hit it - too far and you are in the river - you may be able to reach in 2 but it is not a percentage shot - better to take a mid iron down across the river and leave a wedge to an uphill green.
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#3 at Prestwick - The Cardinal. You can hit driver but the winds really dictate what one SHOULD do.
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For me, it was #1 and #16 at Sand Hills. On both holes, I hit a 3 wood off the tee each time I played them.
On #1, I didn't want to hit a straight shot through the fairway, and I never felt comfortable aiming left. On #16, I aimed at the bunker on the left and hit a 3 wood over it. I probably missed being able to take advantage of a "turbo boost" on that drive, but a 3 wood felt very comfortable for me.
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#14 at The Claw in Tampa.
Jim,
We're talking Driver in the bag, and then pulling out the 3-wood...
Not... 4-iron in the bag pulling out the 5-iron tight. ;)
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#3 at Prestwick - The Cardinal. You can hit driver but the winds really dictate what one SHOULD do.
Long of the tee here is not nice. This is my vote for the best example.
Anthony
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13 at Oak Hill East. Still a great par five because of the second and third shots. Why is it so many people have a problem with laying up on a par five but no problem with laying up on a par four?
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The par 5 2nd hole at The Hideout offer this same quandry as a creek runs diagonally right thru the typical LZ. A big hitter could have a go at clearing the creek with the tee ball, but most have to either hit a soft driver or layup with fairway wood.
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It depends how long you hit your driver but #17 at Grandfather is a wonderful par 5 and a driver puts you in danger of hitting into a crossing creek....as you get close to the creek your lie will also become downhill..not ideal...from the perfect 3 wood tee shot you can have 280-300 yds off a sidehill lie if you want to take a rip at it. Hole length 560 blues/580 black.
check out Ran's profile of ggcc for some good pics of the hole..
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I recall a 600 yard par 5 at Butler National where you had to hit an iron off the tee.....
When I saw the title of the thread, my first thought was that you were advocating a rule change forcing golfers to keep the driver in the bag on par 5 holes. That might not be such a bad idea!
Jeff, I wonder if you are referring to #7 ,a dogleg rt that the fairway runs out at about 270yds. I recall caddying in a Western back in the early 80's and no one could get near the green in 2. There is a creek that runs down the length of the hole on the rt side. One of many tough holes at Butler. Tough stretch of 7-10. Jack
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A number of years ago the "Nike Tour" championship was held at Pumpkin Ridge / Ghost Creek. The 8th hole plays about 580 or 590 from the tips. I watched a bunch of pros pulling 3 iron to avoid OB left that piches in and the big tree that can kick an errant shot OB. There is also a deep pot bunker on the right side of the landing area.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/jdoerr01/gh-lg08.jpg)
More on Ghost Creek #8...
This is a hole which is substantially better from the second set of tees. The hole is prohibitively narrow from the back tee. I'll hit driver and sometimes 3-wood back there, but only because a 200 yard carry is required. Besides, modern drivers are just as straight as the fairway woods. Bad landing area from the back tee, and a somewhat mundane three shot hole for all but the big hitters.
From the second tee at 500 yards, this becomes a great hole for me. First you try to hit a long drive down the right side, hoping to go for it in two shots. If you go for the green and miss left, it is really tough. Tiny green that slopes away, a rough length bunker unique to the Club, great second shot strategies (flying it out to the right over the 100 yard bunker to get a good angle), one of my favorite holes on the entire property, if not my #1.
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It's pouring cats and dogs out there... and so I'm reading back on many of this year's threads.
One thread about par 5s and their place in today's courses had me wondering about something. This has probably surfaced previously and I'm just not recollecting the thread for this.
Are there any strong or even great 3 shot par 5s out there where using driver is just not the right move?
Going for two isn't even really an option but making it in 3 is a great (even exciting) result and the driver just needs to stay in the bag.
Patrick,
I would think that eliminating a driver off the tee would be a design flaw in a par 5.
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;D ??? ;D
merry christmas Pat Mucci
as mentioned the 15th at Pine Vallley ...great three shot hole...driver not the optimal tee shot selection for many good players
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I love this question...
I guess my thought process in all of this is which shot affects your decision to take driver out of the bag or not: The drive, or the second shot?
If the drive is too difficult to risk hitting the big stick, do you still gamble to try and reach. Or, if there is no sense in going for the green in two, should you bother with the driver?
Personally, I always look at the second shot. If I know the green is well guarded or will take a miracle shot to get there, why risk a mistake with driver if I know I am laying up? Conversely, if there is an opening to get home in two on the second shot, I will hit driver no matter how difficult the drive is. You have to take advantage of your scoring opportunities.
An Example: I recently played the Magnolia Course at Disney (for a PGA venue, I wasn't overly impressed), and the last par 5 there (#14) is brutal. Harsh dogleg right off the tee (about 590 from the back tees / 530 front), with trees and narrow landing area. But, there is a pond/creek that goes down the left side (about 150 yards from the green) and then fronts the green. Even if you mash a drive (fade) off the tee, you would need a solid fairway wood shot from there just to get home, let alone hold the green. There was no way I was getting there in two and I wasn't going to try. Because it was one of the more narrow driving holes on the course, I could take a hybrid down the middle, another hybrid layup and a wedge in. Much easier.
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;D ??? ;D
merry christmas Pat Mucci
as mentioned the 15th at Pine Vallley ...great three shot hole...driver not the optimal tee shot selection for many good players.
Archie,
Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year to you too.
At 570-591 yards, uphill, into a prevailing breeze, a driver to a fairly wide fairway would seem like the optimal choice off the tee.
I'd be more inclined to throttle down on the second shot, rather than with the driver.
Let's ask TEPaul.
If he agrees with me, you know I'm right.
And, if he disagrees with me, you know I'm right ;D
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I am not a long hitter but I have found today that leaving the driver in the bag is not nearly as common for most players as it was before the 460 cc driver. The large head combined with the optimal shaft means far greater accuracy than years ago so the principal factor in making the decision to hit 3 wood is distance and avoid hitting through the fairway or reaching a hazard. Vijay hits driver most of the time and he has been very successful - I think he doesn't see rough as a reason not to hit driver.
My recollection from a few years back is that Princeville has at least one par 5 where driver is just not a good choice as it brings a great deal of trouble into play.