Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Matt_Ward on October 24, 2008, 12:28:00 AM
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One of the more unique states that has grown in terms of overall golf development (at least until the most recent of times) is Arizona.
As many people will be making their winter plans I have been reviewing the many different courses I have played in the Grand Canyon State over the last 25 years.
No doubt there's been plenty of people who have influenced the overall scene but I have to say that Jack Nicklaus has been the key figure in bringing to life the many unique elements tied to desert golf.
No doubt desert golf will not be everyone's cup of tea. The 90-acre max rule does place a major limitation on just what can be done there. Nonetheless, the state has clearly sought to add its own dimension to the golf picture here in the USA.
With that in mind I'm prepared to leap off the cliff of public opinion and present my choices for the best layouts I have played in the state.
1). Desert Mtn / Chiricahua (Scottsdale)
Came later (Match 1999) in the mix of different courses Team Nicklaus has brought to life at this unique complex of layouts all under one roof through the vision of Lyle Anderson. Truly has the best routing and most diverse holes one can play in the state. The land provides a real intersection with the desert and the first three holes start the round in grand fashion. The short par-4 2nd at 290 yards still rates for me one of the very best short par-4 holes Team Bear has brought forward.
Jack also has included his usual strong par-4 ensemble and the back-to-back 9th and 10th at 485 and 427 yards are both stellar holes.
No doubt Nicklaus deserves credit for introducing his style with Desert Highlands but it is Chiricahua that takes what he did there 17 years earlier and brings it to the fullest completion.
2). Forest Highlands / Canyon (Flagstaff)
Tom Doak said it best with his course analysis in CG. When it opened it demonstrated the capacity to have great golf in a locale that few had ever envisioned because of the very short season. Weiskopf / Moorish made it a point to include a number of par-3 holes in order to handle the amount of distance players can gain because of the elevation. Works quite well. The par-4 9th still possesses for me one of the most stunning settings for any golf hole in such a environment.
3). Desert Forest / Carefree
No doubt the course that paved new ground years before all the fanfare of desert golf actually took off. Credit to the club for keeping so much of its winning formula front and center. Desert Forest may turn off many people because you need to really handle one's tee game throughout the round. Slight mishits that may be playable with other layouts don't work out here as easily.
Got to say the 5th -- the par-4 at 453 yards is a real joy to play and one of the best holes to play in the Valley of the Sun vicinity.
4). The Estancia Club / Scottsdale
Without question, Tom Fazio's best efforts are here to see. The Estancia Club is also one of the best conditioned courses I have ever played. But the qualities of the layout go far beyond overall grooming. Fazio did a superlative job in routing the holes in and around the immediate area just under Pinnacle Peak. You have to work the ball and the combination of holes is quite good and the terrain encountered is really THAT good.
There's plenty to speak about at Estancia -- but I have always enjoyed the manner by which Fazio included holes that don't require much length but precise placement -- the uphill 342-yard 10th and the short 137-yard par-3 11th come quickly to mind.
Tom Fazio is often the punching bag for many here on GCA -- if you really want to see him at his best then Estancia is one of those places that requires a visit for those fortunate to get on this gem.
5). Whisper Rock (Lower 18) / Scottsdale
Phil Mickelson and Gary Stephenson created some of the most thrilling greens you can play in the state with the original 18-hole layout at Whisper Rock. The greens aren't set above or below many of the actual fairways and you need to think especially hard to reach the optimum angles into the putting surfaces. Give credit to the duo for using a wash that criss-crosses a number of holes throughout the round.
Unfortunately, the course has somehow been lost in the shuffle with so many other new courses popping up into the scene. The second 18 -- by Tom Fazio -- makes for a 36-hole complex that is truly one of the very, very best in the USA that I have played. Although I list the original 18 as the pick I'd more likely include both courses for special recognition.
6). The GC at Chapparal Pines (Payson)
For those seeking a ponderosa pines location that combines beauty and golf design head to this marvel in Payson -- about 75 minutes from the Scottsdale area.
The Rim -- located across the street has been the layout that has drawn plenty of praise -- and its quite an eyeful -- but the sheer diversity of holes is a good step or two behind Chapparal Pines. Gary Panks, along with David Graham, have created a layout that ebbs and flows through the stunning landsite.
Forest Highlands / Canyon gets plenty of fanfare but Chapparal Pines is only a minor step behind in its overall presentation and quality.
7). Stone Canyon (Oro Valley)
Like Weiskopf, Jay Moorish was more identified through the time these two gents spent together. Plenty of their earlies collaborations have receivced plenty of ink but I see the work they carried forward in a solo capacity that is really noteworthy.
When you first play Stone Canyon it's hard to keep your jaw from falling off because of the dropdead beauty that you experience. Moorish combined the natural scenery with a membership course that is not a back breaker but has just enough of an edge to keep you on your game. The closing hole has to rate as one of the most beautiful I have played throughout all of AZ.
8). Silverleaf (Scottsdale)
When Weiskopf decided to move out on his own I was very much interested to see how he would fare. Silverleaf eschews the style of being seen as other desert courses are usually viewed as being especially demanding.
People often cite his other efforts -- Troon North / Monument w Jay Moorish usually comes to mind. Ditto the tandem's effort at Troon G&CC. But both of them pale when held against the likes of Silverleaf. Playability is front and center at Silverleaf but there's enough meat to make the course more than just some sort of post card picture fest.
Hard to ever forget the shared back tee area for the exciting and long par-3 16th and the demanding just under 500 yards finale.
Weiskopf provides plenty of preferred landing areas but getting to them requires a good bit of navigation from the player. At the same time, to his considerable credit, you don't get the punishing routine for the player who is not up to getting to those locations. One of the best examples in providng members with a course that has great elasticity and it's a quality that I have seen with a number of his courses since going solo in his design career.
9). Desert Mtn / Geronimo & Outlaw (Scottsdale)
I could not decide between the two so included them both for the 9th position. I was a real fan or the original Geronimo course -- the layout in its original form was a real bear (no pun intended) to play but it possessed so many fun and demanding holes. I really enjoy the starting hole there -- the par-5 provides an elevated view of the Tonto National Forest that abuts the property and it is quite a scene indeed.
Unfortunately, the folks at DM decided to abort the original par-4 13th at 478 yards and the darling and really exciting short par-4 14th at 329 yards. The latter was one of the best short holes that Nicklaus had created that I had played.
No doubt many might see the Geronimo as being just too demanding -- Doak's comments in CG said that. I always enjoyed the course because when it first opened it was so isolated from all the clutter -- you could truly enjoy the golf and the desert experience. The closing par-3 with the Geronimo statue in the back of the green brings you home in fine fashion -- just be sure to avoid the front left bunker.
Outlaw is the last course to have opened at DM and I am a big fan of the place because of non-design factors such as walking being permitted and the permanent absence of housing when playing the course. Nicklaus moved dramatically away from the aspects of aerial golf and high demand tee-to-green demands with holes that require more positioning and careful deliberation.
For some reason I hear many of the members don't like the course but I have to question if they see the benefit of firm and fast turf conditions and the manner by which Team Nicklaus created green sites that are as varied as any you can play throughout the state. Outlaw is pure fun golf -- the main deficient item that I see is the very narrow green encountered at the 338-yard 10th hole but that's just one small demerit among the total time spent there. Jack used double greens twice at the site and they are well done.
10). Rancho de los Caballeros (Wickenburg)
Gets little attention because of its somewhat remote location. Have to say among all the places I have ever visited in AZ, Rancho de los Caballeros provides the maximum array of different activities and offerings than any other facility that can be accessed by the public at-large. The golf is a design effort from Hardin & Nash and winds its way through the property without being overly crafted -- a common problem with so many other desert courses.
Honorable Mention in no particular order ...
Vista Verde
The Rim
Desert Highlands
The Gallery / North
Blackstone
Apache Stronghold (if they ever get it into consistent shape)
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Matt,
Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. I haven't played at Desert Mountain or Whisper Rock so some of our play doesn't overlap. Have you played Seven Canyons or the newer Meadow layout at Forest Highlands? Both of those would make my top ten in Arizona. Pine Canyon in Flagstaff is supposed to be a good effort, but I haven't seen it yet.
Forest Highlands is my favorite course in Arizona by quite a bit. As you said, the 9th is amazing, and the 17th/18th stretch might be the best finishing two holes in the state. The par threes, while frequent in the middle of the round, are varied and all good holes. The 10th is my favorite of the bunch I think.
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No mention of Papago Park!!!!
Positively, Bar-None, The most Absolutely, Ridiculous list I have ever seen, 10 X's Worse than any readers poll list could ever imagine.
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Ryan:
Appreciate your noise making.
Please knock yourself out and post your listing.
Be most curious to try to understand your thinking.
Andy:
I've played the other courses you mentioned. Seven Canyons is stunning for the off-site scenery but the overall layout is less than what Weiskopf has done elsewhere. I am also not a fan of the amount of trees encountered there and how close they do intrude on a few holes.
You need to play the layouts at DM and WR -- they represent for me at least a real connection to what bonafide desert golf can be like. I've played Pine Canyon in Flagstaff and it's a fine layout from Jay Moorish -- just not as good for me at least -- as the original 18 at Forest Highlands and Chapparel Pines. Ditto for the Meadows at Forest Highlands -- I liked the layout but the first two choices I have mentioned for golf designs within the framework of the ponderosa pines is a good bit better with fewer weaker holes.
I do concur with you about the original 18 at FH. First rate design with plenty of interesting shotmaking situations.
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Matt - Thanks - very good stuff.
Two questions..
- what holds back Stone Canyon from being #1?? I thought it was out of theis world.
- why no WeKoPa? I liked CHolla alot but though Saguaro was off the charts.
Those two would be my 1 & 2 just curious what you think.
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John:
You've asked a few good questions ...
I really do like what Jay Moorish has done since going solo from TW. It seems both men have enjoyed the space from each other.
John, I have to know if you have played the others I have placed before SC? Each of them was chosen because they offer a more complete presentation of design and desert experience for the entire 18 holes.
Keep in mind, that the gap between the first few courses is quite close -- I'd say that until you get past SC on my listing that the gap is quite narrow -- just a few differentiations I consider to be important.
Stone Canyon is held back because they do have a few holes where forced lay-up are mandated. If I can recall correctly -- the 2nd hole is one such example. I'm not a fan of taking the driver out of the hands of the player. I believe the 11th is another one but I can review my notes when I have a bit more time. No doubt there are a few holes that knocked my socks off -- the par-3 6th comes to mind quickly. Clearly man's hand was involved with its creation but it fits the land and is a true joy to play. The par-3 9th is also well done as it sits in the natural canyon below the tee box.
John, I also loved the final trio of holes. The long par-3 16th provides a testing approach which is then followed by a short and dangerous par-4 of just under 315 yards from the tips. The finale is one of the most gorgeous scenes one can get when in the desert environment.
In regards to We-Ko-Pa -- I like what Scott Miller did with the original 18. In fact, I see the totality of holes there to better than Saguaro which is really a cut'n paste of what I have seen from C&C before with other designs. In fact, the entire front nine is really a bore to me when playing it. The best holes come later in the round and they are in fact really solid for the last 6-7 holes. One other thing -- my enthusiasm was also tempered because the place is generally over-watered to the extent any meaningful bounce of the ball is negated.
For public choices I see the Ken Kavanaugh layout at Vista Verde as the better choice. The holes are more varied and more consistent from 1st tee shot to last putt. Just realize that the courses you mentioned are not chump change places to play for those wishing to do so - these are simply my own preferences and recommendations.
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Matt - No have not played anything on the top of your list ahead of Stone Canyon.
I do agree that taking the driver out of your hands is something I don't like, I can live with it one maybee twice a round.
Agreed on 16-18 being a wonderfull streach. I liked the short 6th (thought the waterfall is just stupid - the hole with out the faterfall would be great) but the par 3 9th has got to be one of the great views in all of golf.
As for WeKoPa - I did like Miller's course, it had a few very good holes ( long par 5 & short par 4 combo) I thought the par 3's we're weak.
Saguaro though had some great dramatic elevation changes and the great C&C greens which Cholla lacked for the most part. Is it too similar in style to other C&C courses - maybe - but the greens and the routing to take advantage of the elevation made it world class. I also like the mix of wide & narrow they used. Much more variety then anything else in the desert that I have seen.
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John:
Thanks for the comments - however, I don't see any elements at Saguaro being worthy of the tag "world class" as you stated. To each his own. I don't know if you have played Vista Verde but the overall layout there, the complexity of the routing and the more diverse elements for shotmaking are all in abundance there.
Too much of Saguaro -- especially much of the front and nine and a smaller part of the early holes of the back are really a major letdown for me. I've played a good share of other C&C courses and Saguaro really doesn't advance the ball for me.
Again, I don't know if you have played Vista Verde thus far -- if you have -- I'd like to know how you stack them up against one another.
C&C have done much better than Saguaro -- it seems to me their overall reputation is what drives much of the fanfare tied to their layout there.
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Matt:
Thanks for the list. What is your view of Ventana Canyon - Mountain?
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Jason:
Liked the course but it's need of an upgrade. Some of the bunkers look tired and adding a few extra yards to a fe wkey holes is needed given the surge of yardage since the course first opened years and years ago.
For a bit of time the famed par-3 3rd hole was out of play because of issues tied to its overall maintenance. Still enjoy the hole for what it provides.
I also like the routing because you do get taken to all parts of the property.
When the Mountain Course first opened it was clearly a major player in terms of overall golf quality. The greater stretch of golf that lies on I-10 going going from Phoenix to Tucson has certainly multiplied many times over and I have noticed the increase of top tier layouts.
The good news about the Mountain at Ventana is that you can access the course. One of the sad elements of the courses I listed was how little outside access one can get unless you are with a member. Fortunately, the Tucson area has a good bit more depth on the pay to play golf options for those who are in the area.
Be curious to know -- how do you see the course when held against the others you have played in AZ ?
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No mention of Papago Park!!!!
Positively, Bar-None, The most Absolutely, Ridiculous list I have ever seen, 10 X's Worse than any readers poll list could ever imagine.
Farrow, oh ye of the 10-handed grip it & rip it... Love ya, man, but I think that you & Ward have issues... Seriously, of the courses that Matt mentioned overall, how many have you played? I have played all of them more than a few times, and can say that it's a pretty solid list when it comes to it... You have a limited palette in AZ which lends itself to so so golf IMHO... But, I played Chiri yesterday, playing DF on Saturday and Los Cab on Sunday, so I have to agree with Ward for the most part... Pine Canyon is fun, and I played Stronghold last week and forgot how much FUN that design is... Takes the front-9 to figure out the green speeds, but after that... ;)
TP
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Jason:
Be curious to know -- how do you see the course when held against the others you have played in AZ ?
Matt:
Because my family lived in Tucson for 20 years I have probably played Ventana Mountain 40 times. I have always really enjoyed the course. I think the finish is very strong and the routing does a great job of creating variety on a site with a ton of sideslope. I also think the setting hard against the mountain with views of the city is difficult to beat and the course offers nice variety in terms of holes that provide birdie opportunities and holes that offer more difficult challenges. I think the 3rd hole is adds little to the quality of the course other than allowing the player to visit a unique location.
By contrast, my experience with Estancia, Desert Highlands and Chiricaua is limited to two visits each.
I am very surprised at your listing of Chiracaua as the best in the state. I thought the course was a very difficult test of iron play but provided relatively little in the way of interest off the tee. In general I recall very wide fairways with relatively little advantage for taking a risk on one side or the other. Also, perhaps because I was not familiar enough with the hole - the 2nd seemed very goofy.
I really enjoyed Estancia and particularly appreciated a walkable course. The greens on that course were brutally difficult.
I hesitate to provide any meaningful commentary on Desert Highlands. It has been a while and I mainly remember an unfortunate encounter with a jumping Cholla.
Subjectively, I prefer Ventana. That viewpoint definitely reflects my familiarity with the course.
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Tony P:
Thanks for your comments.
I'd be curious to know your personal top ten in AZ since you've played a number of them several times.
I think one of the main sleepers for any AZ listing is the gem located in Wickenburg. Your comments?
Jason:
A few comments to your last post ...
The Mountain Course at Ventana is indeed a unique place and frankly the overall setting of Tucson in general offers a good bit more topograhical distinction from much of the greater Phoenix area.
In regards to your comments on Chiricahua it's important to remember that width is indeed part and parcel when playing the course. It's not as narrow or penal as you see w Desert Forest from a tee shot perspective. With that said, there is an added call for extra length on quite a few of the holes there.
Jason, you memory may be a somewhat clouded because Jack designed a number of the greens at Chiricahua with particular access points from key areas of each fairway. For example, the 1st is better played from the left side of the fairway. However, plenty of people want to cheat closer and closer to the right side to get more of a favorable bounce down the hill.
You say the 2nd is "very goofy." Really? I found the hole to be a tempting target to go after a score of bogey or worse on the tough opener. The green is set in a bowl-like setting and frankly the biggest risk is not being short -- but actually hitting it over. If that happens, the comeback chip or pitch shot is extremely demanding as it should be. Even if you lay up it's no bargain because the pitch shot must be judge correctly for both distance and height.
Keep in mind, the nature of how Jack changes the pace of the round so dramatically with the first three holes. The first is a long par-4 that goes downhill -- the 2nd is a well done (at least I see it that way) short par-4 (so many times GCA people think the short par-4 is only the domain of the Doak's, C&C's of the design world). The par-5 3rd is a real gamble hole. The bigger hitters can try to hit down the far right side and flirt with the barranca. Those who go too far left have to think especially what to do with the 2nd shot to position themselves for what they hope will be an easier 3rd.
One of the advantages Jack had w Chiricahua is that the previous courses from DM have many aspects incorporated into the design there. Driving the ball is a must item when playing Chiricahua -- so many other desert courses if they feature driving of the ball it almost always is from the "let's narrow the fairways" to the point of being a bowling alley. Not so at Chiricahua - you can take a healthy cut with the big stick but positioning must also be included. Take the long par-4 9th and 10th holes -- both are opposites of each other and both are extrenely demanding holes that start immediately when you arrive at the tee box. Sure, power can be rewarded but you need to soften your approach shot by coming from a particular angle to get nearer to the pin.
Jason, I don't know if you have played Geronimo -- especially the original version -- because although Doak hit on it in his comments in CG for being so demanding I thought the juxtaposition of sheer desert beauty plus the shotmaking bar which is still quite high will certainly not be everyone's cup of tea. Candidly, if someone doesn't have Chiricahua as their top course I can certainly understand particular differences of opinio - however - I'd be amazed if people did not have it easily among the top five in the state. Just one man's opinion.
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It's been a few years since I've been out to Los Caballeros, but it is one of my favorites and is definitely a course that flies "under the radar."
It's best attribute are the greens. It also makes nice use of the natural terrain. There are a few blah holes on the back nine but overall a strong test.
The course is credited to Hardin and Nash and I believe these guys are proteges of Red Lawrence. I think the greens and bunkering at Los Caballeros reflect the Lawrence style.
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Interesting comments overall...
Stone Canyon has some wonderful holes, but I thought both par fives on the back nine were clunkers. The 15th with its zig-zag fairway struck me as one of the worst holes I've seen on an otherwise great course. It would likely make my top ten in state, but barely.
I liked Desert Highlands quite a bit, pleasant surprise with some interesting holes and use of the semi-maintained waste areas that flowed into bunkers. Different look, but I liked it and the first hole is a fun starter.
Estancia is also a nice Fazio. I wouldn't put it in the US top 100, but certainly top 5-6 in Arizona.
I'm with John F. and others on We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. I've got a fairly limited sample of C & C courses played, but I'd put it #2 in the state behind FH Canyon of what I've played. Vista Verde is very good, but I'll take We-Ko-Pa if cost is not factored in. Vista Verde offers better "bang for the buck."
I like Chaparral Pines, but it was a bit too claustrophobic off the tee for me. If the playing corridors were about 10 yards wider on average I think it has some other fantastic attributes and the scenery is very cool.
Seven Canyons is bar none the most spectacular course in Arizona to me, but I think Matt is right that the design doesn't quite match the setting. That said, its still around #5 in the state for me. It suffers a bit from being too narrow, like Chaparral Pines.
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Andy:
Vista Verde's rack rate is more expensive in November than We-Ko-Pa.
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Then I guess Vista Verde USED to be a better deal than We-Ko-Pa. How much is the rack rate now? I guess it was bound to go up once they got established a bit.
I forgot, anybody have thoughts on Quintero. Its been a top 100 modern course the past few years. I preferred Blackstone of the two out in Peoria.
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Vista Verde is currently $160 for the Friday before Thanksgiving. But the guy I talked to made quite clear that he thinks there will be discounts available as that date gets closer.
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Obviously Matt rarely pays for his golf. :D
That list appears like a tour group itinerary for Fannie Mae and Countrywide Executives. Sorry, while it lists some decent courses, it smells like a who's-who list and offers not a lot of....well....fun.
I do like many of your choices Matt, just not all of them on the same pile.
Without ranking anything, I miss Oakcreek CC, WeKoPa, Silvercreek, Troon CC, Rim Club, Ventana Canyon Mountain, and Wigwam Gold. There are others I miss, too. But that's a start.
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I also miss the Links at Las Palomas (Sonora, MX) since it is just a hair over the drive from Phoenix to Flagstaff...I think it should count.
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I also miss the Links at Las Palomas (Sonora, MX) since it is just a hair over the drive from Phoenix to Flagstaff...I think it should count.
It ain't in Arizona but it is one hell of a golf course! I haven't played anything in Phoenix that is that much fun and definitely nothing in Tucson. Apache Stronghold is in the neighborhood.
I would guess that 98% of the play at Las Palomas is from Arizona residents. Fair to say?
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Forrest:
When Mexico becomes part of the USA -- at least the Sonora State -- I'll consider it for inclusion. ;D
In regards to your other comments ...
I simply based on my listing on the many times I have been to the state and the countless courses I have played. Whether a place is extremely private or open to the public played no role whatsoever in the final determination. I'll clue you in -- I did pay the basic rack rate for a good number of them.
The "fun" factor is calculated into my mix. I don't know what your "fun" factor is until you can tell me what is deficient in the ones I picked. Sometimes people will poke holes at another man's thoughts but then back away from posting their listing and reasons. I'm eager to hear a bit more details from you on the ways the ones I posted come up short in your estimation.
I played the other ones you mentioned -- some are quite fun and some are like dinosaurs -- they have simply outlived their unique elements that made the attractive in the first place.
Forrest, please the listing I provided is beyond the "decent courses" level you mentioned. They each have added a good bit to what I view as a top tier AZ golf experience. Candidly, I'm happ to say that AZ golf has matured quite nicely over the years and the intersection of different styles and architects makes for an interesting time whenever I return to the Grand Canyon State.
Andy:
You need to play a few more highly rated C&C courses and then I believe you will see why my comments on Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa were stated. Vista Verde is the better overall course and it goes far beyond the so-called cheaper rate to play there.
Saguaro has a very pedestrian front nine and only until you reach the back nine -- especially with the last 6-7 holes did the course really fast forward itself in my book. C&C have a great reputation but Saguaro for me at least, is more about past work than what was created there.
One final point -- I'd like to see the course actually play firm and fast instead of slow and soggy.
CP is also much wider than you claim. Panks and Graham gave the appearance of narrow spots from a visual perspective on a few holes there but the real width is still present.
If you like Desert Highlands then you need to play the layouts at DM. It was at DM that Jack has taken what he introduced at DH and further refined it with the layouts such as Chiricahua.
Tom Yost:
Concur with you 1000% on Los Cab. Too bad few people really go to Wickenburg because it offers so much natural beauty without being overly developed and the range of holes and appearance styles from the front to back nines is quite stunning in so many ways.
Be curios to know which holes on the back nine that you see as being "blah."
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Andy:
You need to play a few more highly rated C&C courses and then I believe you will see why my comments on Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa were stated. Vista Verde is the better overall course and it goes far beyond the so-called cheaper rate to play there.
Saguaro has a very pedestrian front nine and only until you reach the back nine -- especially with the last 6-7 holes did the course really fast forward itself in my book. C&C have a great reputation but Saguaro for me at least, is more about past work than what was created there.
One final point -- I'd like to see the course actually play firm and fast instead of slow and soggy.
CP is also much wider than you claim. Panks and Graham gave the appearance of narrow spots from a visual perspective on a few holes there but the real width is still present.
If you like Desert Highlands then you need to play the layouts at DM. It was at DM that Jack has taken what he introduced at DH and further refined it with the layouts such as Chiricahua.
Matt,
CP is not "much wider" than I claim, trust me I found out the hard way on many holes where borderline drives were gone or unplayable. Its the same issue I have with Desert Forest. At CP, some holes are wider than others, but the penalty for missing the fairway on many holes, including #7, 12, 14 (through the chute), 15, and others are not wide enough for my liking. Many of the others have more width, but it loses points with me for the "lost ball factor." Its a good course for the low handicap, but the higher handicap will shoot a big number. The Rim allows more recovery options, with the exception of a couple holes (#16 comes to mind). I actually still have Chaparral in my top ten in Arizona, so there's a lot to like, but I think extra playability would help.
I'm all for firmer and faster at Saguaro, but holes like #1, 2, 4, and 5 are hardly pedestrian. #2 is a great little par four. I don't doubt C & C have built better courses and I would be happy to play them ;D, but I'm comparing Saguaro to other AZ courses, not other C & C courses.
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http://www.gadsdenpurchase.com/
Please note that the Gadsden Purchase, if not for the error in surveying, would have created s stratight line across the lower U.S. and, yes, Arizona would have had a small coastline in what is now Peρasco, Mexico. Regarding Mexico becoming a part of the U.S....? Maybe the other way around. Let's not go there before the election, I would not want to give either candidate the notion. :-X
Yes, Bill, 99% of play at Las Palomas is from the U.S.
Matt A lot of your picks are sizzle courses. I like sizzle, but only on steaks and Las Vegas shows. The very fact that some of my suggestions have "outlived their unique elements" in your words is, in turn, my evidence that they may well offer something that is lost on many newer, formula layouts.
Perhaps the greatest course in Arizona was Verde Valley CC in Clarkdale, a 9-hole course laid out by the gold and silver miners from Scotland in the very late 1800s. NLE unfortunately, but bones are still there to enjoy.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.779207,-112.04007&z=14&t=h&hl=en
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http://www.gadsdenpurchase.com/
Perhaps the greatest course in Arizona was Verde Valley CC in Clarkdale, a 9-hole course laid out by the gold and silver miners from Scotland in the very late 1800s. NLE unfortunately, but bones are still there to enjoy.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.779207,-112.04007&z=14&t=h&hl=en
Without looking, is this course routed over a boneyard? I would assume so, in Forrestspeak...
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I'm getting some noise now, so I am going to turn this thing off.
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Forrest:
The thread simply outlines the best courses I have played in AZ -- it didn't break them down further by specific category or the like.
You've placed the tag "sizzle courses" to define what my list is about. Again, I don't know what that means because the courses I mentioned have unique elements that are a good bit different in plenty of ways.
When I referred to my statement that certain courses had "outlived their unique elements," it was meant as a combo that specific certain newer courses have taken what these past courses have done and carried out a few more steps. That's not to say the courses you mentioned are not unique -- but from the standpoint of grouping a listing like a top ten there has be a few layouts that don't make it.
You make the assumption that the ones I listed were "formula layouts." Again, without you taking the time to spell out what is deficient in the ones I listed this exercise of simply tagging phrases has no deeper meaning for a more developed disucssion.
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Matt I do like your list in many ways, but it seems homogenized and, frankly, looks like something I might read in a national magazine that is trying to cater to an ideal blend of high-end mixed with "can't lose" selections. But, I do like the courses you listed.
What I would love to see from a writer and rater with your credentials is more out-of-the-box, out-on-a-limb thinking. Stir it up man!
P.S. From what I hear, Desert Forest may be losing its way big maintenance budget, now overseeding...who knows, maybe they will add fairway bunkers next!?
(I'm probably not being specific...give me time.)
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Forrest:
Again, you start down the path of one-word analysis -- "homogenized." I didn't include any course that I didn't personally play and the ones chosen were not meant to be a "high-end mixed with 'can't lose' selections."
They each are courses that provide high quality design that excels in using the existing terrain, routing and shotmaking diversity to be stellar places worthy of a play.
Would love to purse your "out-of-the-box", "out-on-a-limb thinking." But you hit the nail squarely on the head -- I need you to be a bit more specific. One you do that I'll try to accomodate.
p.s. Interesting how you mentioned what is happening at DF -- maybe others who know more or have played there very recently can comment.
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I have never been to AZ.
I keep checking this thread in hopes that Mr. Farrow will step back into the ring with both feet and explain his position.
Joe
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sorry guys.... I have been verrrrrrrry busy lately.
Mr. Ward, I will always be here to annoy you and question your every thought. ;D
But seriously, if you do not think Papago deserves an honorable mention than you are doing a serious disservice to anyone who respects your opinions. Having such an interesting course at such a low price, so close to a major airport, is kinda worth noting. You know, for all those Joe Six packs and Joe the Plumbers out there, that golly gee, just can't afford to play at all those fancy clubs that you have listed in your top ten!
I must also say, I have not played any of the courses that Matt Ward has listed in his top 10. ;D ;D ;D That, I find ironic.
So heres my AZ Top 10 that I have played (since for some reason, some people actually want to know):
1) Talking Stick North
2) We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)
3) Royal Dunes
4) Papago Park
5) Vista Verde
6) Troon North
7) TPC Scottsdale
8)........ and thats about where the list ends for me
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sorry guys.... I have been verrrrrrrry busy lately.
So heres my AZ Top 10 that I have played (since for some reason, some people actually want to know):
1) Talking Stick North
2) We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)
3) Royal Dunes
4) Papago Park
5) Vista Verde
6) Troon North
7) TPC Scottsdale
8)........ and thats about where the list ends for me
Ryan:
I do not see my college staple, Ken MacDonald, on the list.
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Jason, I am within walking distance of Kenny Mac.
I played it once.... and lets just say I don't like playing golf enough to ever play it again, there are other things I would rather do with my time!
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Ryan:
Saw your listing - you might be able to help me with my confusion from your earlier posts ...
"Positively, Bar-None, The most Absolutely, Ridiculous list I have ever seen, 10 X's Worse than any readers poll list could ever imagine."
And ...
"I must also say, I have not played any of the courses that Matt Ward has listed in his top 10. That, I find ironic."
You see Ryan I have a hard time comphending when people say my list is "(r)idiculous" and "worse than any readers poll list could ever imagine when the person making such comments has not played a good samplying of the ones I've listed.
You did raise a fair point -- but it was not a part of the title for this particular thread -- about listing AZ golf options that are affordable. No doubt if such a listing were created the names of the courses on that list would be a good bit different than the ones which appeared on my mine.
I've played nearly all the ones you listed -- for what it's worth I would throw into the mix with the criteria you mentioned a Ken Kavanaugh layout called del Lago which is just outside of Tucson.
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Jason, I am within walking distance of Kenny Mac.
I played it once.... and lets just say I don't like playing golf enough to ever play it again, there are other things I would rather do with my time!
Hey now, Kenny Mac is a solid muni. Not the greatest site with the nearby power plant and power lines, but a good mix of holes and nice greens. Honestly, I'd rather play the Mac than the Raven at S. Mountain which I played today. I've played the Raven about a half dozen times and even after playing it just this morning, I still cannot recall a single hole or interesting feature on that course. Biggest waste of $$ ever (at least today's event was a corporate outing that was comped).
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Tom, I am not going to argue with you about South Mountain, more than anything the whole "style" really turns me off, along with the high price tag. But the strategies which are present make for some solid golf holes... just not my cup of tea.
Also, you can have Kenny Mac all you want, but as an overall golf experience with the roads, power stations, homes, muni conditioning.... I think I'll just sit that one out. Sure, its somewhere to hit the ball around for dirt cheap, but i didn't get into this game or this profession on that premise alone.
Matt, if you took my previous comments seriously, after I have stated that "I have never played any of those courses", then lets just keep the crazy going!!!!!!
I can't argue with the courses in your list, but I can call your list elitist!
Just for fun could you name your Top 10 list for the Joe Six-Packs of Arizona.
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Matt,
Del Lago is a Nugent design, not Kavanaugh. I played there before the housing was built and thought it was a quality course and would compare favorably to many in the PHX area. Now, with the housing, I wouldn't know.
I generally don't like " Best Lists" when public and private courses are both included. Strange as it may seem, I haven't played that many privates in AZ. Of the ones that I have played, Desert Forest is at the top. I have not played Forest Highlands. I have played Blackstone, Mirabel, Briarwood,Ancala, Terravita,Seven Canyons,Desert Mountain Geronimo and Renegade,Silverleaf, The Gallery North,Tonto Verde(both courses) and Quintero(where my wife had a hole in one.)
As far as the publics are concerned, if you choose to bifurcate them by "value" that's ok. I've played a lot of publics and any "Best List" should include Papago in anticipation of its reopening in December after renovation.
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Ryan:
Appreciate your comments -- small suggestion. The next time place a smiley face after such a statement because it's easy for people to misunderstand if what you said was really in the manner you stated.
Back to the matter at hand ...
I'll certainly give it some thought on the creation of such a list for AZ. The problem is that prices do fluctuate greatly during the winter months when compared to other times. I'll review the landscape and see if something can be put forward. I'll certainly be looking for your comments after I post.
Steve:
Thanks for the correction on del Lago. If the housing has now entered the picture I'd be curious to see what effect has happened when I visit Tucson early next year. The price charged was more than reasonable when I first played there.
In regards to your second comment ...
I can appreciate your opinion -- but the title of this thread was the best overall in the state. If a similar list were created for Pennsy or Jersey the likelihood that privates would dominate the top of the charts is all but a certainty.
No doubt it would be a bit more helpful for those who can't access such private places to have info on other layouts where price and access are less of a stumbling block.
In regards to Papago -- it's best to wait to see what is there AFTER the opening. Too often hype that precedes anything tied to a course can often be a bit much. However, there are public layouts in the state that would be well worth playing -- one of my best sleepers is in the far north in Page called Lake Powell. Very much worth playing when in the area.
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Matt,
The bones at Papago are very good. The recent pictures posted on the course website on the Papago Update thread show that the course has promise. It will probably open in December so you should try and play there.I won't be there until March.
Another sleeper course IMO is The Preserve at Saddlebrooke in Oro Valley, north of Tucson.
http://tucsongolf.com/tucson/courses/preserve/index.html
I think public play is still permitted there.
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Steve:
Thanks ...
The problem that I mentioned previously is that even the public places (save for those courses owned by the taxpayers - ergo, Papago) do experience price bumps up during the winter months if they are in the Valley of the Sun and Tucson areas.
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No one has mentioned Rio Rico down near Nogales. The front-9 might be RTJ's best work ever (except for the first 5 holes at Spyglass).
Matt:
I have to agree that leaving Papago off your list makes a big hole in it for me. I think it's one of the best public courses in the country.
Jeff F.
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Jeff:
I understand what you say -- but the title of this thread was the BEST overall courses in all of AZ. Yes, the reality is that private and high end resort courses will dominate that listing but that's not really news -- at least to me and others.
The available $$ when they were built and having the wherewithal to hire the top design talent has allowed that reality to come into being. This is coupled with the fact that often these sites have the best land too.
I mentioned to Ryan I will think about the current AZ landscape and see what more affordable golf options there are. Thanks for mentioning Rio Rico in Nogales. Papago is certainly a contender when price is factored. However, if you truly believe Papago is among the top ten irrespective of price then you and I will part company.
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I will be very interested in what the GCA treehouse things of Papago. It is headed for a criticism because nothing they did involved old plans or Wm. F. Bell's or Jack Snyder's records, plans or notes. In a nutshell it is a reinterpretation based on whatever the AGA and Company wanted to see. I laughed my _____ off when I read that the design team poked around in the soil because there were no old plans to refer to! That was one of the funniest press accounts I have ever read in any golf course related story. I almost cried myself to sleep with laughter.
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I will be very interested in what the GCA treehouse things of Papago. It is headed for a criticism because nothing they did involved old plans or Wm. F. Bell's or Jack Snyder's records, plans or notes. In a nutshell it is a reinterpretation based on whatever the AGA and Company wanted to see. I laughed my _____ off when I read that the design team poked around in the soil because there were no old plans to refer to! That was one of the funniest press accounts I have ever read in any golf course related story. I almost cried myself to sleep with laughter.
Forrest,
Your comment makes me even more regretful that I missed playing Papago when I was out there a few years back, prior to the re-do.
I hear your frustration.
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Forrest:
Given your knowlegde of Papago -- prior to whatever work is being done now -- do you see the "new" version as being worthy of acclaim? Or were you comments from your last post more of a fear on what takes place now?
I can remember the old version fairly well - played the course twice the last time being 12 years ago.
From what you have said I infer you believe a sympathetic restoration, at minimum, should be the goal -- not some sort of reinterpretation. Be curious to know because when you posted your first comments on this thread tied to the best in AZ golf -- you didn't mention Papago -- and I'm guessing it was tied to the original design elements.
Comments?
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I think it is a shame, travesty, disrespect and outright malpractice that the powers-that-be said there were no original plans to refer to in the process. All one needs to do it read the original proposal of the developer/manager to see that they knew full-well that original plans and data were in-hand and available.
I have not seen the course, so I am not evaluating it. But whenever I hear such garbage it leads me to believe the whole process is flawed. I detest flawed processes.
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Forrest:
You didn't answer what I asked.
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I have not seen the new version, so I am not the guy to ask about its virtues. It is a shame that, apparently by all accounts, the "new" Papago did not get the benefit of a study of what Bell (and Snyder) originally designed and built. No mater what changes are made to a course, a look to the past is always helpful and often enlightening.
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In no order..
The Rim
Desert Forest
Whisper Rock (lower)
Apache Stronghold
Stone Canyon
Gallery - South
Desert Mt - Outlaw
Forest Highlands - Canyon
Talking Stick - N
7 Canyons
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Jonathan:
If you have played Silverleaf can you tell me why you would place Seven Canyons ahead of it?
Weiskopf got the benefit in having plenty of drop dead gorgeous off-site terrain with the latter -- but the design details for variety of holes is found, at least for me, with the layout in Scottsdale.
Comments ?
Forrest:
Thanks.
Last question -- do you see the original Papago if properly restored as being one of the ten best courses in AZ and if so why ?
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Matt,
How many of these Arizona courses would you see as top 100 level in the US? Both overall and "modern" using the GW cutoff? Just curious...there's quite of very good courses in AZ, but I'm sure how many are truly elite.
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What does everyone think of The Rim? I played it almost three years ago and my friend that I played with raved about it before we played, but I was not impressed. Of course, it was 40 and windy when we played, but I did not see what was so great about the course. The service at the club is great, but that does not make up for an average golf course in my opinion. Thoughts?
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Deucie Bies:
The Rim is the personification of eye-candy to the max. Sorry, to hear you played it on a cold and windy day -- but if you had played it on a sunny and fairly light wind day the views from the course of the nearby Mogollon Rim are spectacular.
No doubt you have comparisons of The Rim v Chapparal Pines and I see the latter as the better of the two. Some have opined (see comments from Andy) that CP is too narrow in plenty of spots. I paid attention to a great number of things when I was at CP and I didn't find the fairway corridors being that narrow -- there are more narrower courses in the Valley of the Sun if tightness is to be measured from the teeing areas.
The Rim does have its share of unique and fun holes -- personally I see the inner half as being a good bit better than the front side. The 10th thru 13th -- along with the final trio of holes is quite good.
Andy:
That's a touch question -- but likely 5-6 of the courses I mentioned would have a good shot in making my personal top 100 -- irrespective of a modern v classic tagline.
The problem for many people is that they see desert golf as limited -- some have taken what Doak said in CG and been brainwashed to believe that one desert course is akin to another.
Andy, you yourself mentioned that you have missed a fair number of the top tier private ones that were mentioned either by me or others. So don't make the quick assumption as others have that AZ golf is nothing more than a winter diversion untul better weather returns to much of the country.
Like I said before in my listing -- few people have ever weighed in on Rancho de los Caballeros in Wickenburg. It's a first rate course but because it's not right in Scottsdale it gets little attention.
Let's turn things around -- how many that you have played would make your personal top 100 ?
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The Rim does have its share of unique and fun holes -- personally I see the inner half as being a good bit better than the front side. The 10th thru 13th -- along with the final trio of holes is quite good.
Thanks Matt. Maybe I need to play it again because the only hole I slightly remember on the back is the one with the big boulder behind the green (13 maybe). I don't remember the closing holes at all which for me is a telling sign. I usually remember every hole on each golf course that I play. Maybe by that point in the round, I just wanted to go in and start drinking!
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Matt,
I do intend to play the Desert Mountain courses and Whisper Rock, but at the same time NONE of those make the Golf Digest top 10 and only one of the Whisper Rock layouts make Golf Week's Top 100, so while they very well might be better than the layouts I have seen, I have played 7 of the top 10 in Arizona per Golf Digest, plus Quintero which makes the GW list. I've actually played more courses in Arizona than I have Colorado, although the sample is pretty close. Without question I'll be in a stronger position to speak about things once I've played them all...assuming of course I ever get that opportunity.
Right now, only Forest Highlands Canyon would be a sure top 100 course to me from Arizona. There are a few others that would be top 100 "modern" layouts using the GW criteria--Saguaro and The Rim. Quite a few others are close, but would likely just miss. There are things I like about desert golf, but with Chapparal, Desert Forest, and even Seven Canyons the narrow corridors push them out of top 100 consideration for me. The three courses I do like are all wide enough that they don't become a lost-ball fest if one isn't on with the driver. Some folks don't mind that, but width is important especially with desert/brush on both sides of every hole.
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The original Papago would have been close (to a top ten spot.) Conditioning helps, which it never had except for the few opening years with bentgrass.
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Jim "Bones" Mackay's top 3 Scottsdale courses are Whisper Rock (lower), We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro) and Greyhawk (Raptor). http://www.golfweek.com/lifestyles/features/story/local-knowledge-scottsdale-102008. I'm not sure that's an entirely unbiased list!
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I'm very surprised to hear several people list the old Papago as a top 10 course in Arizona. It was one of the two primary courses I played in college. I really enjoy the course and think it is nearly ideal in terms of presenting a challenge to the good player while being playable for all. Nonetheless, I did not see it as anywhere close to meriting that sort of acclaim.
I'm not sure when it was built but the course seemed to me a lot like a million other 60's era courses - par 72, short par fives, long par threes, big greens and wide playing corridors. I viewed it as similar to Randolph North in Tucson, Rio Rico in Nogales, McCormick Ranch in Scottsdale, Bunker Hills here in Minnesota, Jester Park in Des Moines, Finkbine in Iowa City and, I am sure, many other courses. I would not hesitate to play any of the courses on that list but would never identify them as standouts worthy of high ranking.
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Andy:
You need to break out from this "what does Digest have to say" in its own rankings. Digest is not the be-all / end-all.
The simple fact is that Desert Mountain actually is shortchanged by what Digest and Golfweek have spouted forward as top tier stuff in the desert.
I said this before -- Nicklaus did a superlative job in bringing desert golf to life -- following the years before steps of what Red Lawrence did w Desert Forest. If you like Desert Highlands then Jack's work goes a number of steps forward with the likes of Chiricahua and Outlaw, to name just two there at DM.
Whisper Rock is also a must play and the work by Mickelson and Stephenson is well done -- ditto what Tom Fazio did there as well.
Interesting to point out that your inclusions for a top 100 position are primarily non-desert located courses (e.g. Forest Highlands / Canyon & The Rim) although you thrown into the picture We-Ko-Pa's Saguaro Course. Still can't fathom how you see Saguaro ahead of Vista Verde but I digress.
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Ah, a mention of Finkbine in Iowa City. Now that truly warms this Hawkeye's heart. Well done Jason. I haven't thought about Bunker Hills in years.
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Ryan:
You asked me a short time back on this thread for a listing of courses that Joe Sixpack types could play -- I'm guessing you were asking for courses that are open to the public on a daily basis.
Off the top of my head I would say the following would be a good starting point - in no particular order ...
Vista Verde
The Raven at Verrado
SunRidge Canyon
Apache Stronghold (a courtesy consideration even if the turf is nothing more than so-so
We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)
Raven at Verrado
Talking Stick (North)
Arizona National
StoneRidge
Grayhawk / Raptor
I reserve the right to add or delete a course once my memory sharpens after the wind I've had tonight with friends !
p.s. I don't count a place like Los Caballeros as being really public because it doesn't have direct public access unless you are staying there. Maybe someone can update me if what I just said is inaccurate.
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Matt
Los Caballeros is semi- private with members and resort play taking priority tee times:
www.loscaballerosgolf.com/rates.html
The prime season rack rate of $200 is comparable to WeKoPa, Grayhawk, etc
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I'd add Gold Canyon's Dinosaur Mountain to the public listing. Longbow's probably not top ten but its a good value for the area.
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One of the issues is to decipher what courses are really 100% public -- those such as Los Caballeros aren't really public in the broadest sense of the definition and I'd likely leave them off.
What's really interesting is how far the Troon North model has fallen when you see the growth of other CCFAD and other public courses throughout the Valley of the Sun area. Troon North in the early 90's was really THE place touted by many -- that's not the case now.
One other sleeper choice for public play I'd recommend just below the ones I previously listed would be Superstition Springs -- gets little attention fro many but the layout has held up well.
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Matt,
Troon North is still pretty highly regarded by most folks, although I agree it doesn't have the prestige that it had when it was a new facility. It seems like We-Ko-Pa is "the" place in the valley, but Grayhawk and Troon North still seem to have strong name recognition.
I only played the "New Pinnacle" at Troon North and didn't find it to be that impressive--the housing is relatively intrusive.
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Andy:
The issue I saw early on with Troon North was the playability issue. When you limited yourself to only 90 acres of land that you can irrigate you leave open the possibility that players accustomed to playing their wide misses can find them is certainly an issue.
I've often found the resort play at Troon North really CRAWLS.
The changing of the course to a new configuration really didn't add much to either of the "new" layouts. Those who still see TN as cutting edge stuff likely have not played the wider assortment of courses that have opened since then. Frankly, Vista Verde is light years ahead of TN in my mind.
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Matt, The Dunes is now public... so I think you can/would add that to the list.
I would also say you need to visit the recently renovated Papago. From the photos on their website things look a whole lot better. It is most certainly an all around top10 public in AZ now. I still say it was before hand.(Although it looks like you disagree)
Finally played the Raven at Verrado a couple of weeks ago. It would just sneak in my top 10 for now (you listed it twice). The bunkering was very strategic and unique / especially for AZ. Good price and everything else was pretty not bad. It just didn't stand out that much from the rest of the desert golf I have seen. AND the par 3's were a big letdown.
And we have had the TSN and Vista argument before. I will just let that absurd comment slide. ;D I think they are both wonderful courses.
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Ryan:
Fair enough.
I liked Royal Dunes in its former life as a men's only club -- no doubt the financials have changed that genesis to what it is today.
In regards to Papago I'll check it out the next time I'm in the area but I have to say that the original layout -- I played it a few times -- was more about nostaglia than anything that was really compelling.
If anything, Troon North opened the door to golf in the more exciting terrain areas of the desert.
Glad to hear you played Raven at Verrado -- sorry to have listed it twice. Agree with you on the par-3 side -- but the overall qualities of the property are nicely done and the playability issue is not as brutal as it is with some of the other courses in the greater Valley area. Be curious to know your thoughts on the closing hole there -- I liked it a lot because it puts a mega premium on quality driving.
One final thing -- my argument was about TN - and how it shakes out against the likes of VV. It was not about TSN. Got it.
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Matt, maybe it takes a couple of plays for one to understand what makes Papago so great? Again, disappointed with the par 3's there. (IMO they all needed a major overhaul / back to the renovation vs. restoration but lets be honest here, they were are all pretty lame - AND THE EXACT SAME YARDAGE!!!!!)
Agree with Troon North. Its golf in a spectacular setting. Not a whole lot more. But I'm a sucker for a nice setting. And green grass.
Fairway width at Verrado is a nice change of pace, but I still lost a ton of balls. 18 was not that great. I was confused for a minute because I started off on 10 and finished at 9. I thought for a minute that hey, this Ward guy really knows what hes talking about. ;)
#9 played as you described 18. And I thought it was a much better hole.
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I'd be interested to see Papago again post-renovation. To be honest while I liked the course, I wonder if it would be seen as positively if it were in the midwest where the style of the course would make it another good solid layout as opposed to its stark contrast with the surrounding desert layouts. I don't remember many details of specific holes as being particularly memorable. Its certainly much more affordable to play, although if I saw correctly the out-of-town rates now are much higher than they were previously?
I'd put Vista Verde comfortably ahead of TSN and TSN comfortably ahead of Troon North. I can see how Troon North was probably a beautiful site prior to all the home building, but now most of the vistas are blocked. There are a few good hole such as the 10th-12th on the "New Pinnacle," but the houses are very much in play in other areas (including one at the corner of the dogleg of the very first hole on the new configuration).
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Ryan:
I would need to see what the "new" Papago is about now. Frankly, Forrest Richardson expressed his disappointment that the place opted to forego the past and simply decided to insert new elements as they saw fit. Possibly Forrest can elaborate further when he sees with this thread.
I didn't find the "original" Papago to be that compelling. No doubt being the prime course for so long -- before the Scottsdale development boom took hold -- made a big time differences for those coming to the Valley area to see such courses.
Regarding the closer at Verrado -- don't know if they switched the nines but the last hole from my memory was roughly 490 yards / par-4 with water pinching in the drive zone when you got past the 280 yard mark.
A real demanding drive and approach are called upon.
Andy:
You hit the nail squarely on the head -- memorability being an issue for you is one small but clear reminder that such a course is not that great. Papago is more about yesteryear -- like I said I'll be happy to see what's there now to see if it's worth mentioning with all the newer layouts that have opened in the last 25-30 years.
The issue with TN is that it's overly penal for those who can't hit ball relatively straight on a number of holes. The drive zones do pinch in and the newer configuration really didn't add much to the time spent there.
Give Troon North credit for pushing the envelope for those who really had not seen or desire to play in the desert areas in and around Pheonix / Scottsdale. It's just that in my mind the desert golf alternatives that have come on board since then have simply driven miles beyond what is there now.
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Having not been there yet, I reserve all opinions. Others have said that there were quite a few wholesale changes and, if that is true, it seems disappointing considering Papago had some very solid, yet subtle, parts. Since I was not involved in the re-building I think it best judgement is reserved.
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Matt, here is 9:
(http://www.ravenatverrado.com/course_tour/09.jpg)
Here is 18:
(http://www.ravenatverrado.com/course_tour/18.jpg)
As to Papago...........if you didn't think it was good before hand then you really weren't on your game. It was one of those places where you said to yourself, wow if they actually took care of it, this could be one of the best courses in the state.
And IMO I would have forgone the past in some spots. The original course looked great, it was still good as of last year, but foregoing the past could have made it legendary. I'm talking about incorporating lost strategy, washes, and adding new bunkering on most holes. The rest could have been left untouched.... The greens were great, views, fairway contours, most green sites....
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Matt - you would put Gallery N over Gallery S?? Why?
JC
(I haven't played Silverleaf)
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The thing about Papago, it's definitely understated, especially after visiting the newer, flashier CCFAD's like Troon N., etc. But there is something intangible about the old school feel that allows it to stand up to the more modern layouts.
I played Papago a lot when I first moved to town, but gradually stopped going due to the deteriorating conditions and slow pace of play. I went out there last year for the first time in about ten years and was really (re)captured by the layout, enough that I returned to play it several more times before they closed it for the remodel.
It may be one of those "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" things. No holes really stand out as "great holes," and I agree that the par 3's were mundane. Nonetheless, it is an excellent core routing that flows over and makes use of the natural rolling terrain, offers city and mountain views, and had great greens. It was also interesting to see a large number of walkers playing the course. All these things add up to give Papago a more traditional feel and flavor that is sometimes lacking in the newer courses especially those that are routed through the housing developments and involve mostly cart riding.
I'm hoping to get out there to see the results of the renovation soon but until then, I'm not going to weigh in on whether is belongs on the Arizona top 10 public list.
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As for the Raven @ Verrado - I've played it only twice but really liked it. Wide playing corridors and a variety of holes that present playing options from both the tee and the approach, many greens that offer run-up/ground game possibilities. The course was maintained firm and fast both times I was out there. The downside is it is a real estate cartball type of course.
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Ryan:
Thanks for the posts of the different pictures / re: The Raven at Verrado.
I see the 18th as the more strategic hole -- the narrowing of the fairway makes for a very demanding placement -- given the distance of the hole it pays to challenge that slot but there is mega danger should the execution fail to happen.
The 9th is also well done -- you would need to shape the shots accordingly -- moving the ball from left-to-right helps immensely.
In regards to Papago -- I don't have any comments on the "new" version -- but I think the original was really about a certain time frame for what it offered then. The state of desert golf since then -- both private and more importantly, public -- has really blossomed with a number of fun and compelling layouts. Would a layout of yesteryear still be able to hold it's own now -- I doubt it.
Be curious to know what people see with the "new" layout. Forrest did mention his concerns and I wonder if the playability / shot values elements, to name just two items, have been either helped or hurt when held against the original.
Tom:
You make a good point -- newer courses have included vast number of housing into the layouts and the golf connection issue gets strained further with massive cart rides. No doubt part of that has to happen because of the economics tied to the game.
Still, it was good to read about your enjoyment with The Raven at Verrado. I like the course a lot -- the housing is not as intrusive (yet) with other desert courses and the width dimension is certainly present to allow for as much playability as the site can offer.
Jonathan:
I like the original 18 at Gallery better.
The routing is better -- the newer 18 is more of an out and back setting which was meant to allow for more and more houses to be built.
I only wish the match play event could be held on the original but there are some cramped locations with that course.
Candidly, I salute John Fought / Tom Lehman for the first 18 -- one can make an argument that the excessively long 9th hole is more of a conversation item than a real strategic par-5. I'd like to see them play the hole at just about 600 yards so that the strongest players have to decide on how much risk they wish to entertain.
The second 18 at Gallery is just as well routed and fails for me at least to have a deeper roster of holes with more variety. It's still a challenge to play but I find the entertainment / fun factor better with the original.
What's your take ?
By the way -- I hope you can play Silverleaf when time permits. Wonderful layout and one of the best I've played from Tom Weiskopf.
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In regards to Papago -- I don't have any comments on the "new" version -- but I think the original was really about a certain time frame for what it offered then. The state of desert golf since then -- both private and more importantly, public -- has really blossomed with a number of fun and compelling layouts. Would a layout of yesteryear still be able to hold it's own now -- I doubt it.
It seems there are quite a few "layouts of yesteryear" that appear in the top rankings. Take for example, Pinehurst #2. Here is Donald Ross's so-called masterwork that is considered underwhelming by many.
I'm by no means suggesting Papago is comparable to #2, but just pointing out that older styles and traditional golf designs aren't necessarily always overshadowed by newer, flashier models. If you look at the growing popularity of minimalism, Papago fits that mold perfectly (or at least, it did...)
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Nice thread matty. here's some of my faves - no order:
sedona
troon north (the old pinnacle, but I haven't been there since they switched the nines around)
ventana canyon (both)
tsn
we-ko-pa (both)
apache
blackstone
the boulders (south)
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Tom Y:
Keep this in mind -- if the bones at Papago were THAT good to start with -- then why the desire to create a "new" Papago? Possibly someone who has played the pre and post versions can opine.
I think you are stretching the point in linking Papago to some sort of commonality with Pinehurst #2 (the subdued concept) -- no doubt you didn't mean a comparable situation in terms of course standing.
I just think from the many visits I have made to the AZ area that the benchmark of quality public couses has risen dramatically. No doubt a number of them have been impacted by the cluster of homes and the incessant cart rides as you make your way through the 18 holes.
Nonetheless, a place like The Raven at Verrado, Vista Verde, Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa, to name just two, are well done and have crafted a desert motif along with a compulsory architectural dynamic that calls upon the player to perform consistently through a wide range of holes that are both strategic and scenic in their appeal.
Jay:
Just a heads-up ... Ryan previously had asked me about public places. I don't see Blackstone as public. Ditto the South Course at the Boulders. They are simply resorts -- although in the summer months they may be more open to outside play without staying at the facility. I don't see them as bonafide 100% public courses in the same vein with Troon North, TSN, We-Ko-Pa or AS, to name several you mentioned.
You did mention Sedona and frankly I would award the place the "dumb blonde award" that Doak used in CG. The course is in an area of incredible beauty but there really isn't a hole there that really carries itself to a top tier of architectural wonderment. If I had to recommend a course nearby I would say StoneRidge in Prescott Valley. Gets little ink but is quite good.
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well isn't 1 drivable? 4 is a good par-4. I agree its not the most strategic course, but it's cheap...
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Matt I know I should have stopped this rumor many posts ago but from talking a bit with the architect in charge and reading many of the news stories and interviews about the on-going work, the course will be relatively un-changed. The bones will no doubt remain, the green contours preserved, the complete routing intact and a bunch of trees removed (although not enough IMO). I know of 3 major changes. 1) Lowering the lakes (Good) which were set above the fairway before 2) Raising tees & Possibly shifting a green site on 17. Grrrrrrreeeeat. That hole was horrendous. and A green was moved/shifted on #10 I believe.
I don't see how anyone who knows there shit could say this is not a top public course if the restoration turned out well, which most indications seem like it has been pretty successful. They nipped a lot of the big problems in the butt. Unfortunately I probably won't be able to check it out until sometime in January.
And Matt, you talk about old time golf or traditions or whatever you want to call it. Dude, I am 22. I have no past memories from Papago's heyday. I have only known the beat up/overgrown and neglected Papago. But like MANY have said, the bones were still there, and that is what makes Papago special.
I'll put it up against Saguaro / Vista / and the Raven any damn day.
I think you just missed it. :o
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Tom Y:
Keep this in mind -- if the bones at Papago were THAT good to start with -- then why the desire to create a "new" Papago? Possibly someone who has played the pre and post versions can opine.
I think you are stretching the point in linking Papago to some sort of commonality with Pinehurst #2 (the subdued concept) -- no doubt you didn't mean a comparable situation in terms of course standing.
No way was I trying to compare Papago to Pinehurst in terms of ranking, my (poorly expressed) point was only that in a general sense, old styles aren't necessarily trumped by newer styles. This was in response to your comment that Papago "was really about a certain time frame for what it offered then" and your question "Would a layout of yesteryear still be able to hold it's own now?"
As to the very good question why change it if it was so great? The same could be asked of many classic courses that have felt the hand of modern architects seeking to put their name on things. Why? I don't know. Empire building? I think you said it best with the question you asked - "Would a layout of yesteryear still be able to hold it's own now?" I think we know that the mindset here at GCA differs significantly from the mindset of the majority of the golfing public when it comes to architecture and maintenance. It is easy to see how the desire to maintain the subtleties of the existing layout could be overran by the desire to create a "regional destination" and the predominate popular belief that new is better than old. You gotta have waterfalls for that !
The AGA proposal and every press release issued subsequent to the contract award used the term "restoration," yet the final product appears to have gained some significant modifications. Without a clear directive for "sympathetic restoration" it seems there are few architects that won't try to add their own signature touch to a renovation. Then there is the small concern that the AGA's chosen architect doesn't seem to have any track record for either new designs or renovations! His only claim to fame that I can tell is that he was formerly the Super at ANGC. ???
Like I said, I have yet to play the renovated Papago. It is quite possible the changes have made it better. I certainly hope so. TBD.
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Ryan,
No way Papago comes even close to Saguaro IMO. I wouldn't be surprised if its better than I've given it credit for having only played it once and before the re-do, but I'm pretty confident on that one. Vista Verde too really--although that one might depend down the road on much devlopment occurs and how that changes the course.
I bet Papago stands up to TSN just fine though ;D ;)
It does sound like the improvements will help, and I could see it moving well up against other Arizona public courses. Matt likes the overall group of them better than I do, although I think we agree that the majority of the best courses in the area are private. Colorado and Michigan and likely other states have a much better selection of public courses. Its comparing apples to oranges, but I think Indiana and Arizona would be an interesting comparison on the public side. It would be interesting (at least to me) to see if the renovated Papago would be ahead of my 10th best public in Indiana.
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Ryan:
I can't comment on what is at Papago now. I do respect the comments made from Forrest R regarding what was done with the team that came in and decided to add their own "salad dressing" to the original salad that was present long before you even picked up clubs.
You say, "I missed it." Candidly, the former Papago reminded me of the shell of a course that was more about time from long ago. The game of golf design has accelerated greatly since the late 1980's and some of the more noted public designs -- such as Vista Verde, Saguaro at We-ko-pa and The Raven at Verradom to name just three, are stellar examples in bringing to life a true and meaningful desert golf connection that emphasizes a healthy marriage between playability and challenge.
Ryan, you say strongly that "anyone who knows shit" would place Papago at the top of the public charts for AZ. That's quite a statement because the former Papago was resting on nothing more than memories than anything else the last time I played it (about 10 years ago).
I have to ask -- you say definitively that all "the big problems" were "nipped ... in the butt." I don't know how you can say that with 100% certainty since you admit you have not played the course just yet.
Try to realize the bar for quality public course design in AZ has risen dramatically in the last 25 years. A number of key architects have been busy in the Valley area and beyond and the bar for such courses is no longer just your pedestrian muni with little real qualities attached.
You say -- without a personal play -- that the new Papago is more than able to match up against the likes of Raven Verrado, Vista Verde and Saguaro at We-ko-pa -- that's a tall order my friend and one I'll be most interested in testing when I play Papago this spring.
Tom Y:
I never said you were comparing specifically the likes of Papago to Pinehurst #2. Just the idea that the "old time" layouts have plenty to offer.
The "new styles" you speak about are courses that have greatly accelerated the desert / golf concept to a very high level. Weiskopf / Moorish did much on this front with Troon North -- those two 18-hole courses have since been passed by a broader array of top tier courses that are more unique while still permitting playability and overall scaled challenges. Just check out the qualities of AS in Globe. No doubt the shape of the turf has long been an issue but the detailing of the design is miles beyond the staid layouts that entered the desert scene from the time of the 60's and early 70's.
Tom, given what Forrest said the core elements of Papago have been changed to some extent -- clearly to the point of Forrest raising his own concerns given the pedigree of the course. I have no idea on what's been done now -- but if those elements that first made Papago special were that good -- then why the desire to change them? Maybe, just maybe, those things were needed to be done. Maybe, just maybe, those original elements were not as good -- when held against the gains made on the public scene by the sheer array of such courses since the late '80's.
AZ public golf has come a long way since its first steps -- Papago played a leading role in that effort -- however -- I think that modern public golf today in AZ has more than just a few standout designs that have taken what Papago first did and have gone many, many positive steps beyond.
Tom, I'd hate to see "waterfalls" or other goofy additions just for the sake of fanfare. How good is the "new" Papago? I have no idea. But, I think it's fair to say that modern architects have done well on a broad range of front in providing public players with some compelling architecture in the last 25 years -- places like Raven at Verrado, Vista Verde and Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa testify to that. Ditto a few others I have included as well.
Andy:
Interesting desire to hook up AZ public golf versus the Hoosier State. The old Papago could not sniff the top ten public in Indiana. It's a testament to how good the public depth is in that state. How would the "new" Papago fare? I don't have a clue now.
Interesting you mention Colorado public golf -- I see that state with some of the best options available for quality design. MI public golf has more in terms of quantity -- but I don't see that many of the best MI public courses holding their own with Colorado ... possibly closer to the level of AZ. Indiana is greatly underrated in terms of quality golf -- plenty of the hype often times shifts to neighbors such as Ohio and Michigan.
If the "new" Papago can really sniff a top ten placement when held against Indiana public golf then that's truly saying something for the Phoenix layout in my mind.
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Just as an aside I have to mention that one of my personal favorite courses from AZ -- Geronimo at Desert Mountain -- was changed a number of years ago when the uphill par-4 13th and the delicious short par-4 14th were significantly changed.
Tom Doak's comments in CG about Geronimo were a bit harsh but I can perfectly understand how he could reach such conclusions given the need for strong driving skills.
The two holes were really complimentary to each other and the short 14th was one of the finest holes that Team Bear had created. The hidden bowl-shaped green was far different than what many had seen previously from Jack.
I also don't know if the facility still uses the tip tee at the 16th -- maybe someone can weigh in on this -- that back tee provided one of the most intimidating tee shots I have ever played.
I still like Geronimo with its grand par-3 18th bringing the round to a close. In fact, of all the par-3 closing holes I have ever played (e.g. Pasatiempo, East Lake, GCGC, et al) the closer at that layout is still the best for me.
Last item -- it amazes me on this discussion how few people have played most of the courses at Desert Mountain. Chiricahua and Outlaw are certainly worth playing if the opportunity arises.
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Boy Matt - I couldn't agree more about the old 14th at Geronimo. The anticipation after hitting your second and walking up to the pin to see where it ended up was great (especially on a left pin).
Last I was there the back tee on 16 was there, but in working there 6-years we never set markers back there. I think you can still play it but it is not on record.
You talked earlier about the flow of Chiricahua, but I think a lot of the credit needs to go to Phil Smith, is design associate at the time. There were quite a lot of in-the-field changes made for the better such as:
#2 - Originally just a Par 3 from the current teeing ground. The green site was "found" while snooping around for a good cart path routing.
#3 - Would have been a straight-line tee-shot instead of angling to the fairway. But as the path was being sought from 2 - 3, it served better placing the tees where they now are.
#4 - Jack actually wanted the tee fairly close to #3 green, hitting blindly over the hill left of the fairway. Lyle said he was crazy!
#7 - Pond to the right drawn by Jack during a site visit.
#8 - Initially staked from tee way to the left. I think that green is great where it is!
#10 - Green moved across the wash.
#13 - Debated adding a second green on the left to alternate on a regular basis.
#14 - Had about a million versions before settling on the final design. I still think the green is quite awkward.
#16 - Originally a Par-3 like #2.
#18 - Planned to have a pond to the right of the green, but wouldn't be very visible from the fairway so was removed. Good call.
Definitely a FUN course to play, with a lot of variety. Thanks for the thread.
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A reply that is a litle OT, but for those going to Rancho de Los Caballeros, take the time to tour the Desert Caballeros Museum in Wickenburg. The best public collection of old west stuff I have ever seen- leather, firearms, Indian garb, etc.- the real stuff from when the West was won. Also a wonderful gallery for original artwork from the late 1800s and early 1900s including Remingtons, Fanrneys, and much more and a facinating display of local minerals . If you live in the valley, shame on you if you don't go see it.
BTW, I like Matt's list but still think Desert Forest is #1, especially since the areas adjacent to many fairways have been cleaned out.
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Peter:
Thanks for the detailed comments.
It's good to have someone who understands what Desert Mountain is all about bringing forward such comments. Too many people have only played one or two courses at the complex and depending upon which ones they played determined their opinion for the entire range of courses there.
The 14th at the old Geronimo was one of the best holes I have played in AZ -- it's a shame to see it RIP.
What really made playing Geronimo so much fun was the stress it caused on the tee shot -- you just knew that you needed to marry both length and direction on any number of holes encountered.
When people talk about exciting first holes -- the beginning tee shot at #1 on Geronimo has to rate right up there. The desert unfolds below you and the Tonto National Forest takes up one's eye in the distance.
Let me just say that the 16th is not the REAL 16th unless you play it from the tips if you are a low handicap player. When the tee is there and you encounter a prevailing south to southwest wind you'd better make sure you catch the tee shot square. One of the most intimidating holes I have ever played because you know what needs to be done and you MUST do it.
Thanks for mentioning Phil Smith's name -- he deserves plenty of credit for what he provided to Chiricahua.
I really like the 2nd hole there -- one of the best short par-4's from Team Nicklaus that I have played. Going for the green is not E-Z but the lay-up shot doesn't guarantee a low score either given the skill level required.
The 3rd is a fantastic par-5 because you need to decide at the tee how much do you dare try to cut-off. When I played it I had a good amount of wind helping and was able to cross the channel that cuts across. Even then a second shot to the green was no less daunting.
The first three holes really get you going in grand style.
I also love the back-to-back par-4's at the 8th and 9th holes. Two superb holes that really ask for everything from the player and when justifiably earned there is no greater feeling than accomplishment when doing it.
Have to say this -- the uphill par-5 17th is a bit of letdown for me. The hole gives you an opportunity to get one back but I don't see much there from a design standpoint.
You're right / re: the 18th -- the last thing the hole needed was for a pond to be inserted into the mix.
I've always enjoyed the four rounds I have played there because you get the total desert experience -- it provides playability to higher handicap types but will not concede anything except when accompanied by stellar play. Hard to fathom why this Nicklaus layout -- including Outlaw -- get so little attention given what others in the immediate area receive.
Peter, last comment -- I will always have a soft spot in my heart for the original Geronimo -- one last comment -- one of the better par-4's I always enjoyed playing was the mean son-of-a-bitch 5th hole - just a real ball buster but one that did reward absolute first rate execution.
Hard for me to fathom why Outlaw is so despised by the membership -- I've also heard talk that Lyle was considering selling the course to Troon Golf. Any truth to that ?
Jim S:
My wife and I toured the museum in Wickenburg and it's everything you said and so much more. Hard to fathom why anyone would not want to take the time to see it.
Help me out -- glad to hear about Desert Forest and the cleaning-up of the off-fairway areas but I have to wonder whether the details around the greens are of equal or greater stature than a few of the more recent additions to the desert scene -- for example, the Lower at Whisper Rock or even places like Outlaw / Chiricahua at Desert Mountain.
If you have played them -- be curious to see where they would shake out with your own listing. Thanks for the comments and course updates. I hope to be back in the Scottsdale area immediately after the PGA Show in late January.
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Nearly every hole on Geronimo offers some sort of risk-reward. Some on tee-shots, some on lay-ups, and, of course, approaches. Yes, #5 is fantastic. Always loved #7 & #8 - especially before all the houses were there. All the par-3s are fantastic too. I still probably enjoy Geronimo more than any of the other 5 myself.
The old "way-back" tee on #15 was pretty dramatic too (it's now a house).
Outlaw is a great and demanding course. Better have your irons dialed in - especially your distance control. I like that you can hit driver all day.
No doubt the brown winter appearance is not liked by most members, but it sure provides for firm and fast conditions. I have seen players bounce shot-after-shot over greens (ie. #2) and I am sure this also contributes to the general displeasure. As far as it being sold - Lyle no longer owns it anyway so it wouldn't be him selling in the first place. The members are scheduled to take it over in 2010 from what I know, but haven't heard much talk about Outlaw being "outed." I haven't worked there since 2000, but several members of my club here up north are also members there, so I will check it out and post something if there is some truth to the rumor.
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Peter:
Sorry to hear that the "way back" tee on #15 / Geronimo is no longer there. Can you tell me what the actual new "back tee" distance is now.
Given what you have said -- how do you see the "existing" Geronimo faring against the original 18? If you had to apply a Doak number to the original versus the existing would they be?
Outlaw proves the point that when a general golf crowd plays point-to-point over-watered layouts they will always bitch and moan when playing a layout where shot control is pivotal and where the judging of flight and roll are essential elements. I think Outlaw is a revolutionary layout from what you generally see in the greater Scottsdale area. The only downside I have always had is with the approach to the 10th hole -- a bit severe given the shallow nature of the green when approaching from the fairway -- when people can hit towards the 11th fairway and have a better angle from that direction something is wrong with the hole itself. A bit of a change would be helpful.
Part of the grandeur of Outlaw is that housing is really not a concern when playing. You can also walk the layout -- last time I was there people did use pull carts. The land for the course is really good and Team Nicklaus did a wonderful job in bringing to life the elements many people want in modern golf. Amazing to see how little appreciation there is for such a layout. If it is sold -- I can only hope its overall presentation and architecture will be preserved and not turned upside down.
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Not sure what the yardage is, but there is no tee behind the original gold tee (same as #13 - that old "green" tee is also now a house!).
Realistically the only change for 99.9% of the players is #14. Those green tees definitely made a HUGE difference, but it is like Erin Hills - hardly anyone ever plays all the way back.
That said, the change on #14 was sickening. Besides losing a great hole, the new 14th is so un-inspiring. It doesn't fit - the fairway is far wider than any hole. A long-hitter simply cuts over the desert and has a short wedge up to that hybrid green. When they built the new green, they left half of it there and just build it up to the new approach side. Shorter hitters (average golfers) can't get it over the hill to the flat part of the fairway and have a long, blind uphill approach shot. But it sure helped sell some more lots ???
You hit it about Outlaw - most golfers DON'T appreciate a ground game like you can use there. If #10 wasn't so penal left, players wouldn't need to bail-out right. They could probably still fix it by clearing a little more desert left of the green (create a bail-out area).
Outlaw is VERY walkable - and credit a lot of members for doing so there. It is the only course on property that gives easterly views like it does - the Four Peaks with snow on it is awesome! I have a feeling it will gain more and more acceptance - maybe slowly - but it will get there. There are too many fun holes for it not to be played.
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Peter:
Amen -- on the saturation with the housing. DM lost a bit of its uniqueness when the holes / tee boxes were altered for those reasons.
You didn't answer my question on Geronimo -- Doak number you'd apply to the original and to the course that's there now.
Last item -- I have a feeling if Outlaw were designed by another person rather than Nicklaus - it would have gotten more acclaim. I know when I played it the first time there were a couple of people I bumped into after the round and it was there first time too and they had no idea that Nicklaus and his team could create such a thrilling and fun course to play (save for the 10th hole which needs some serious help).
Sad to say - many people on this site have never set foot on DM or only played one or two of the layouts there. It amazes me when people speak about desert golf in AZ and cannot reference their comments on what DM has added to that equation.
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I'm not well versed on the Doak scale so I skated by the question. If continuity is part of it, it loses a lot of value.
Outlaw definitely is not typical "Nicklaus." Story goes that they wanted a walkable & playable course (aka easy for the members). Got the walkable. Not the playable if you ask the average member.
But could you imagine if DM had used 6 different architects for each course. Would probably be one of the best facilities in the nation!
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Peter:
Scale of 1-10 with 10 being absolutely perfect and zero being a total dog -- how would you rate the original Geronimo with what's there now?
Ditto for Outlaw in terms of a rating number.
Outlaw has a first rate presentation but as I said to you with my last post it constantly surprises me how few people have ever played DM or simply played just one or two layouts -- normally Cochise since it hosted the seniors there for so many years.
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Oh simply I would rate the current a 6.5 and the original a 7. There still are so many great holes that I love playing it whenever I am in the area.
I would probably put Outlaw at a 6.5 as well. Chiricahua a 7.
Even with 2500 members, it is still strictly members and their guests, so they are not easy to get on. Plus guest fees are probably still about $175.
DM gets a lot of crap, but all in all a member there has 6 really good golf courses to play (including Renegade which is 1 1/2 courses in one). Lot's of variety. It is definitely far from a "member" experience overall as large as it is, but that's why they all go north for the summer. I'd pay to be a member if I had that kind of $$$$.
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There's really little discussion on this site of the tremendous qualities found at Whisper Rock in Scottsdale.
The original 18 was brought forward by Phil Mickelson and Gary Stephenson and opened in early '01 -- now called The Lower Course. The course blends in with the desert and doesn't attempt to build up features that often times are seen with the other courses in the area.
The drive zones are also neatly disguised to provide the sense of more danger than there really is. It's tough not to get hesitant before pulling the trigger and executing. The greens and their surrounds are also not harsh in nearly all instances. There are preferred sides and you need to avoid missing whenever the pin is cut too close to one area of the green.
Almost four years ago a second layout (The Upper) was included from Tom Fazio and while the land for the second is more rolling the distinct nature of both courses has enough differentiation to drive interest for both courses --although I still prefer the original 18.
The key for the appeal for the Lower for me is how fairways shift at all times -- you can't simply grip and rip with being conscious of playing angles. For a guy who really is a poor driver of the ball -- I salute Phil and Gary for being able to make sure that total driving -- power plus position -- lies at the core of the course.
Whisper Rock gets little attention on this site because it's quite private. Candidly, I am amazed at how little attention it does get. Maybe others can weigh in with their thoughts. One other note -- for as much ink that Estancia legitimately gets -- the Upper Course can easily strike a good case that is equal -- if not better.
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Matt,
I think Whisper Rock is tougher to access than most of the other even private clubs in town. I am hoping to play one of the Desert Mountain courses next month, hopefully others at another time.
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Look forward to your comments ... the access issue has likely worked against Desert Mountain and Whisper Rock -- both of the facilities don't really genuflect to people who are raters and that is their prerogative.
The problem with ratings is that it's important for key people to make sure they have played the key candidates -- when I see the Digest and Golfweek state listings I have to wonder if that's happened or if people are simply adding more weight to favored architects no matter what comes forward.
Desert Mountain is a facility of immense proportions. What I mentioned to Peter reflects my personal angst on what happened to Geronimo. I am happy to hear he feels the same -- with particular respect to the old 14th green site. It was a fantastic hole -- Doak does mention this as an FYI in his review of the course (which I feel demonstrates Tom's bias against tough driving courses) in CG.
Whisper Rock has much to celebrate from an architectural dimension. The two courses are not carbon copies of each other and the original 18 will clearly give any level player more than they can handle -- at the same time playability is not compromised with either layout provided the players understand their own limitations and only play from tee boxes from which they can handle.
Be curious to see if others have any comments on the courses at DM and Whisper Rock. If one has not been to both then the education of desert golf from a purely personal standpoint is limited in my mind.
Happy New Year !!!
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Unrelated to the thread but still something of interest -- does anyone know if green fees for the public available courses have dropped given what is generally charged during the peak winter months.
Someone asked me this -- be interested if others can comment.
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Unrelated to the thread but still something of interest -- does anyone know if green fees for the public available courses have dropped given what is generally charged during the peak winter months.
Someone asked me this -- be interested if others can comment.
I'm in Phoenix now and just played 3 rounds this week. Here is the pricing on all of the courses I played.
Vista Verde - $75
Troon North - Monument - $99
Talking Stick North - $80
I booked all of these rounds through either golfhub.com or golfnow.com. I don't know how these compare to prices in the past two years but they seemed very reasonable for peak season rates. I think Vista Verde and TSN were particularly good values. I don't think I'd pay $99 to play at Troon North again. I enjoyed holes 14,15 and the views on 16 but the rest of the course was just OK. (I may have missed something on the front nine due to an extremely slow and frustrating pace of play?) I look forward to getting back to TSN and Vista Verde on my next trip.
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Souther Dunes belongs on this list.
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Brian:
Interesting.
From my memory -- it appears Troon North has made a major adjustment -- I don't know if they spike rates right after the 1st of the New Year though.
Maybe others can comment.
Agree with you on Vista Verde -- great buy for what you get back.
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Matt,
I think that has to be an adjustment on Troon North's part. I played it last year I think in October and I believe it was fairly expensive as per their previous policy. They may realize that the level of their competition has risen, not to mention the obvious impact of the current economy.
Brian,
I played the Pinnacle at Troon North and felt the same way as you did about the Monument, including the pace of play.
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Ditto the new layout at Troon North....
Also, i have never seen rates as low as they are now, not sure what these places will charge u w/o a discount now, but any of them for under 100 this time a year is unheard of.
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Matt,
I think the rack rate is still $215.00 at Troon. I was kind of shocked at the $99.00 rate which is why we decided to head out there. In the end, it still wasn't that great of a deal.
Ryan,
Also, I checked in to Papago but it was $120 (I believe) for non-residents. Not exactly the "great value" that I expected after reading this thread. I was in the area at the Botanical garden's Chihuly exhibit and stopped by Papago to take a peak. It looked like a pretty neat course but kind of packed in to a pretty tight piece of land. Is that accurate? Any idea on the acreage? Hopefully I will get out there next time I'm in the area.
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Brian, et al:
I can't imagine facilities like Troon North being able to continue with the $215 rack rate.
On the other hand -- I'm still curious to know what they will charge for the remainder of the peak season - January through March.
Once facilities opt to go lower they run the risk in forever losing those same customers because they then expect such rates to be maintained in those time periods. Sometimes the rush to get players can be a slippery slope for them to overcome in such down times.
Clearly, if Troon North is opting to cut fees by more than 50% the spillover to other courses -- especially those further removed from the core Scottsdale area might be even more noticeable.
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Matt,
I think the rack rate is still $215.00 at Troon. I was kind of shocked at the $99.00 rate which is why we decided to head out there. In the end, it still wasn't that great of a deal.
Ryan,
Also, I checked in to Papago but it was $120 (I believe) for non-residents. Not exactly the "great value" that I expected after reading this thread. I was in the area at the Botanical garden's Chihuly exhibit and stopped by Papago to take a peak. It looked like a pretty neat course but kind of packed in to a pretty tight piece of land. Is that accurate? Any idea on the acreage? Hopefully I will get out there next time I'm in the area.
Yes, that Papago rate went through the roof after the renovation, its still a great deal for residents. I think the acreage is pretty average, its a core golf course, so it could be less than some other development courses, I can guarantee you that it does not feel cramped, plenty of room between holes.
I'll have to check out that Chihuly exhibit, I saw the one in Pittsburgh at Phipps Conservatory last year. Doesn't hurt that the AZ botanical gardens are pretty neat just the way they are. Should be pretty interesting.
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Good values in Phoenix:
Coyote Lakes
Coldwater
Saguaro / Ft. McDowell (when available at a decent rate)
Encanto / Phoenix Muni (Wm P. Bell; odd, but enjoyable)
Adobe at Arizona Biltmore (when available at a decent rate)
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Forrest:
I played a few of the ones you mentioned -- the issue is whether there is architecture elements there equal or greater than the price benefits you receive.
I don't see that being the case across the board -- no doubt the dropping of rates for the bulk of courses in and around the Valley area will mean an opening up of play for some of the ones that have already been mentioned.
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Added to http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/Recommendations (http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/Recommendations)
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Art:
Thanks for taking the time to do this -- no doubt, course listings can be quite subjective but having info in one place where people can readily access does provide some value.
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I played Apache Stronghold and the Outlaw and Chiricahua courses at Desert Mountain last weekend and wanted to update some thoughts.
I don't have a ton to add on Apache Stronghold that hasn't already been said on this board. Its a fantastic design, one of the top five in the state IMO. The conditions are sub-par although perhaps improving. I'd still put it very high on the public listing in A, although the good private clubs that probably slip ahead of it with the conditioning issues IMO. You won't find better for $20 walking anywhere though.
On to Desert Mountain...
Outlaw is possibly the most unique course I've played in Arizona. Its not overseeded and the course plays very firm and fast and is a lot of fun. However, some of the slopes are VERY severe around the greens so the ball can roll a long ways in the wrong direction. Some of the greens are on high spots with fall offs on most sides which can be a little frustrating. It pushes the envelope--the question would be whether that's a good thing or not and I think one has to play it and make that determination for themselves. I think its a course that really requires multiple plays to have a prayer of scoring well. I would recommend it to GCA'ers and anyone that's a strong golfer, but higher handicaps may have more fun elsewhere. I can see how most members at Desert Mountain find it too severe, although the better players seem to like it. Its a players course. The 3rd, 5th, 8th, 13th, 14th, and 16th stood out to me as my favorite holes from one viewing.
Chiricahua is much more like some of the other private clubs in the area--overseeded, green, interaction with the desert, etc. Its a very fine golf course, especially the back nine (save perhaps the tee shot on the 15th). I really like the stretch of 10-12, and then the final three are very good as well. I would put it in my top 10 in the state, but not #1 like Matt. I think its fairly comparable (but a little behind) to The Estancia Club. Still highly recommended.
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Interesting read, this thread.
A question: if someone wanted to play a desert course in Arizona - perferably near Phoenix on en route to Sedona or Flagstaff - and they were completely looking for a dramatic "desert" experience: lots of desert close to the playing corridors, cactus and boulders etc. that would be completely unlike what golf is like in Australia and the UK, what would you recommend?
Good GCA still being an important factor, but for the sake of the exercise, less crucial than the factors mentioned above.
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Scott:
None of the courses will be like Australia, but I recommend you play one that is not yet surrounded by housing for the best desert experience. Unfortunately for your itinerary the best courses tend to be northeast of Phoenix rather than northwest so you will need to drive a bit. The terrain and the views are worth it.
Vista Verde
We-Ko Pa Saguaro
We Ko Pa Cholla
are all solid bets but check on the overseeding schedule with the course to make sure that they are not changing from summer to winter grass when you will be there.
Talking Stick North is an interesting course but on dead flat land. You should experience some rolling desert, and see Saguaros, road runners, jackrabbits and possibly javelina, coyotes or a rattle snake.
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Jason, good suggestions. I really enjoyed all three of those courses.
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Scott:
None of the courses will be like Australia, but I recommend you play one that is not yet surrounded by housing for the best desert experience. Unfortunately for your itinerary the best courses tend to be northeast of Phoenix rather than northwest so you will need to drive a bit. The terrain and the views are worth it.
Vista Verde
We-Ko Pa Saguaro
We Ko Pa Cholla
are all solid bets but check on the overseeding schedule with the course to make sure that they are not changing from summer to winter grass when you will be there.
Talking Stick North is an interesting course but on dead flat land. You should experience some rolling desert, and see Saguaros, road runners, jackrabbits and possibly javelina, coyotes or a rattle snake.
Scott -
I agree with the above recommendations. All three are well worth it and will give you the experience you are looking for.
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Since this thread, I've also played both Wekopa courses. I enjoyed them the most of all the courses I've played in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area. I particularly liked the Saguaro course. If you had time for just one round and wanted a "dramatic desert experience", Wekopa Saguaro is the way to go.
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Sweet, thanks guys. Wekopa looks awesome (and much cheaper than TPC Scotts and Troon Nth, to boot!).
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I'm a big fan of We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and highly recommend it (and have posted as much many times on here). But if you're really looking for a traditional desert experience (i.e., a course that is a good example of what desert golf typically looks like), I'm not sure Saguaro is the best course to play -- among other things, it's significantly wider than your typical desert course. That's one of the things that makes it good, IMHO, but you'll lose the (typical desert) experience of always worrying about hitting it into the desert!
Scott, another option is Desert Forest, which does permit reciprocal/unaccompanied play if you make an inquiry. It's a really cool place.
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This is an old thread that might be interesting to update.
I played the new course at Scottsdale National the other day (called the other course) and was wondering if anyone would put it the top or near the top of the best courses in Arizona?
Granted Ive only played 10 or so courses there but would say its my favorite.
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This is an old thread that might be interesting to update.
I played the new course at Scottsdale National the other day (called the other course) and was wondering if anyone would put it the top or near the top of the best courses in Arizona?
Granted Ive only played 10 or so courses there but would say its my favorite.
Cool. How did you like it? What kind of rating would you give it? Very secretive course with Parsons wanting it to be an exclusive out of state member retreat for them and guests. Did you play the Bad Ass Nine or whatever they call it as well?
Also to this thread has Desert Mountain maintained itself over the last 10 years or slipped? I have never played any of them, but a good friend of mine family lived there for a few years and he always raved about the conditioning and how hard Geronimo was gold to gold.
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Joel,
I'm not connected enough to have played either of the 2 courses at Scottsdale National or even their " Bad Little Nine" so let's get this thread started again without Matt Ward.
Here's GD's lists:
Best Residential CoursesEstancia (p) The Rim (p) Forest Highlands The Canyon (p) Stone Canyon (p) Quintero (df, p) Ritz-Carlton GC Dove Mountain Saquaro & Tortolita (p, r)Desert Highlands (p)Troon G&CC (p)Mirabel (p)Forest Highlands The Meadow (p)Wickenburg Ranch (df)Pine Canyon Club (p)Silverleaf (p)Desert Mountain Chiricahua (p)The Gallery North (p)The Gallery South (p)Troon North Monument (df)Seven Canyons (p)Superstition Mountain Lost Gold (p)Desert Mountain Geronimo (p)
Best Resort Courses
We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro), Fountain Hills (http://golfweek.com/2017/12/05/we-ko-pa-golf-club/)Ritz-Carlton GC at Dove Mountain (Saguaro & Tortolita) MaranaTroon North (Monument) ScottsdaleAk-Chin Southern Dunes, Maricopa (http://golfweek.com/2017/12/01/ak-chin-southern-dunes-golf-club-advertisement/)Troon North (Pinnacle), ScottsdaleWe-Ko-Pa (Cholla), Fountain Hills (http://golfweek.com/2017/12/05/we-ko-pa-golf-club/)Ventana Canyon (Mountain), TucsonBoulders Resort (South), CarefreeLa Paloma (Ridge/Canyon) TucsonVentana Canyon (Canyon), Tucson
Here's GW's list of Best Daily Fee courses:
1. We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)Fountain Hills (m)2. Ritz-Carlton Golf Club at Dove Mountain (Saguaro/Tortolita) Marana (m)3. Quintero Peoria (m)4. Verrado Buckeye (m)5. Wickenburg Ranch Wickenburg (m)6. TPC Scottsdale (Stadium)Scottsdale (m)7. Troon North (Monument)Scottsdale (m)8. Troon North (Pinnacle)Scottsdale (m)9. Ak-Chin Southern Dunes Maricopa (m)10. We-Ko-Pa (Cholla)Fountain Hills (m)11. Ventana Canyon (Mountain)Tucson (m)12. Boulders Resort (North)Carefree (m)13. Boulders Resort (South)Carefree (m)14. Grayhawk (Raptor)Scottsdale (m)15. La Paloma (Ridge/Canyon)Tucson (m)16. Apache Stronghold San Carlos (m)17. Laughlin Ranch Bullhead City (m)18. Sewailo Tucson (m)19. Grayhawk (Talon)Scottsdale (m)20. Ventana Canyon (Canyon)Tucson (m)21. Talking Stick (North)Scottsdale (m)22. Gold Canyon Golf Resort (Dinosaur Mountain)Gold Canyon (m)23. SunRidge Canyon Fountain Hills (m)24. Wigwam Golf Club (Gold)Litchfield Park (m)25. Camelback (Ambiente)Scottsdale (m)26. Los CaballerosWickenburg (m)27. Papago MunicipalPhoenix (m)28. Legacy Golf Resort Phoenix (m)29. Starr Pass Tucson (m)30. Whirlwind Golf Club (Cattail)Chandler (m)
Apache Stronghold should be eliminated from any list because of continuing conditioning problems.
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Here's GD's Best in State:
1 . (1)]The Estancia Club (http://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-estancia-club), Scottsdale 2. (2) Forest Highlands G.C. (Canyon), Flagstaff ≈3. (4) The Stone Canyon Club, Oro Valley ≈4. (3) Whisper Rock G.C. (Upper), Scottsdale ≈5. (6) Whisper Rock G.C. (Lower), Scottsdale ≈6. (5) Pine Canyon Club, Flagstaff7. (7) Desert Highlands G.C., Scottsdale ≈8. ( Forest Highlands G.C. (Meadow), Flagstaff9. (12) Desert Forest G.C., Carefree ≈10. (10) Desert Mountain Club (Chiricahua), Scottsdale11. (11) Silverleaf Club, North Scottsdale12. (9) The Rim G.C., Payson13. (18) Desert Mountain Club (Geronimo), Scottsdale14. (17) Scottsdale National G.C. (Mineshaft), Scottsdale15. (19) Quintero G.C., Peoria ^16. (14) Mirabel G.C., Scottsdale17. (16) Desert Mountain Club (Renegade), Scottsdale18. (13) Troon C.C., Scottsdale19. (21) We-Ko-Pa G.C. (Saguaro), Fort Mcdowell ^20. (22) The G.C. At Chaparral Pines, Payson21. (New) Wickenburg Ranch G. & Social C. (Big Wick), Wickenburg ★22. (New) TPC Scottsdale (Stadium), Scottsdale ★23. (20) The Club At Seven Canyons, Sedona24. (25) Ritz-Carlton G.C. At Dove Mountain (Saguaro/Tortolita), Marana ★25. (24) Troon North G.C. (Monument), Scottsdale
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Courses that should rate higher in this mix IMHO -
Whisper Rock Lower
Desert Mountain Chircahua
We-ko-pa Saguaro
Wickenburg Ranch
Courses that should be lower
Pine Canyon
Chaparral Pines
TPC Stadium
Quintero
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Here's GD's Best in State:
1 . (1)]The Estancia Club (http://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-estancia-club), Scottsdale 2. (2) Forest Highlands G.C. (Canyon), Flagstaff ≈3. (4) The Stone Canyon Club, Oro Valley ≈4. (3) Whisper Rock G.C. (Upper), Scottsdale ≈5. (6) Whisper Rock G.C. (Lower), Scottsdale ≈6. (5) Pine Canyon Club, Flagstaff7. (7) Desert Highlands G.C., Scottsdale ≈8. ( Forest Highlands G.C. (Meadow), Flagstaff9. (12) Desert Forest G.C., Carefree ≈10. (10) Desert Mountain Club (Chiricahua), Scottsdale11. (11) Silverleaf Club, North Scottsdale12. (9) The Rim G.C., Payson13. (18) Desert Mountain Club (Geronimo), Scottsdale14. (17) Scottsdale National G.C. (Mineshaft), Scottsdale15. (19) Quintero G.C., Peoria ^16. (14) Mirabel G.C., Scottsdale17. (16) Desert Mountain Club (Renegade), Scottsdale18. (13) Troon C.C., Scottsdale19. (21) We-Ko-Pa G.C. (Saguaro), Fort Mcdowell ^20. (22) The G.C. At Chaparral Pines, Payson21. (New) Wickenburg Ranch G. & Social C. (Big Wick), Wickenburg ★22. (New) TPC Scottsdale (Stadium), Scottsdale ★23. (20) The Club At Seven Canyons, Sedona24. (25) Ritz-Carlton G.C. At Dove Mountain (Saguaro/Tortolita), Marana ★25. (24) Troon North G.C. (Monument), Scottsdale
Interesting list. Apparently Ron Whitten visited a few weeks ago, shot 110 and pleaded with Parsons to open it up to panelists. That was rejected.
Based on this list, IMHO "The other course" would rank #1. It's far superior to Estancia. There are no homes although a few member villas are under construction as well as Parsons personal home which is mainly hidden. It has a 6-6-6 setup with the par 3s outstanding. We played it at 6,777 yards but the back tees go to 7,165.
The Bad Little Nine is a hoot. Holes run from 88 yards to 153. The greens are large with some very unusual undulations. A few greens have very small shelves that are about 10x10 which would make for near impossible pin spots. On Fridays they put the pin on those locations and apparently play member games.
The clubhouse is outstanding. It's a one story adobe Indian style with tile. Under construction is a large complex home to PXG. I have no doubt it will be a high tech oasis for club fitting and practice by the PGA tour players.
Kudos to the architectural team of Jackson Kahn who are very inovative yet fair. Also Pinnacle golf design and Ken Alperstein for the Landscape architecture which is amazing considering this site was primarily flattened by Lyle Anderson before Bob Parsons purchased it.
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Desert Forest on list at #12??? Sorry, but after finally getting out to the Valley at the same time as my esteemed host Mr. Moore, I don't believe that either course at Whisper Rock or any course at Desert Mountain would find a place higher on my list of best in AZ...
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Desert Forest on list at #12??? Sorry, but after finally getting out to the Valley at the same time as my esteemed host Mr. Moore, I don't believe that either course at Whisper Rock or any course at Desert Mountain would find a place higher on my list of best in AZ...
So you have Desert Forest #1 I take it. What stood out to you?
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Joel,
Since Bob Parsons has rejected raters/panelists from playing , I doubt that " The Other Course" will be officially designated by GD as #1 in AZ; however, I note that Mineshaft, the original course, is rated #17 Best in State by GD. Interesting. Also, I note that Ron Whitten has not yet written or tweeted about his visit to " The Other Course"
Visit Jackson Kahn's website to see some pics of their work on both courses:
http://www.jacksonkahndesign.com/sngcnew.html (http://www.jacksonkahndesign.com/sngcnew.html)
http://www.jacksonkahndesign.com/sngcreno.html (http://www.jacksonkahndesign.com/sngcreno.html)
Nevertheless, I prefer ratings to be separate for privates and publics.
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Joel,
Since Bob Parsons has rejected raters/panelists from playing , I doubt that " The Other Course" will be officially designated by GD as #1 in AZ; however, I note that Mineshaft, the original course, is rated #17 Best in State by GD. Interesting. Also, I note that Ron Whitten has not yet written or tweeted about his visit to " The Other Course"
It took maybe 6 or 8 years before Friars Head had enough votes to be rated by GD. Nanea in Hawaii still doesn't have enough votes so I suspect the The Other Course will eventually get its due. Golf Digest refuses to change with the times and uses an antiquated system so it takes time for some courses.
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It's a diversified type of golf (desert vs. tree lined is quite polarizing) out here .. and make whatever lists you want, but you'd be missing out on some fun golf if you missed Papago and GCU.
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Dave Zinkand's work at DF looks really impressive. The course has always been a great walk, but the renovations appear to have added a lot of interest and a level of refinement that this wonderful track deserves. Some really thoughtful changes to enhance a few opportunities that existed.
It's been several years since I've teed it in AZ but I'd have to say that the rankings do not align with my personal sentiments after living there for a couple of years and playing many of the pubs and privates listed.
Whisper Rock is a really cool club - a fun and unique spot, but DF is a more interesting walk and architectural experience for a purist than either the Upper or Lower.
WKP Saguaro is well worth a visit and I'd rather tee it there over many on the list above it for interest and enjoyment.
A thorough review of The Other Course would be welcome (although it sounds unlikely). The land at formerly knows as GCS is pretty rad and the original course left so much to be desired.