Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: TX Golf on September 05, 2008, 02:56:34 AM
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Over the last few days I have been reading the current threads about the "best maintained courses" in the world and the most difficult greens complexes around. I continually found that Oakmont was mentioned in both threads.
This got me thinking. I recalled from the last U.S. Open that the greens at Oakmont are completely Poa Annua. I am from the west coast and have grown up learning that Poa Annua is an absolute evil. I have also come across many other posts on this site that would say the same thing. If this is the case how is it that Oakmont is able to present the "best" greens in the world on this "substandard" putting surface called Poa Annua. Do they a different type of agronomical practice??? Are the rest of us all just stupid??? I don't know, and would love some feedback. Thanks.
Robert
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My understanding is that Oakmont's poa annua has basically evolved, through 100 years of extreme maintenance, into a grass that does not resemble any other grass, anywhere.
I recall a story that they took some aeration cores and couldn't even get the grass to grow off of the Oakmont property.
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Yes, didn't Oakmont's poa at some point somehow go perennial? How did that happen?
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Poa is a fine surface especially for a sportsman who relishes the vagaries of nature and the concept best described as run O green. The recent onslaugt on the weed is that it's difficult to cut it low enough for the speed demons.
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Most of the current (and historical) knock on Poa surfaces is that you have to contend with the seed heads and they cause the roll of the ball to fluctuate during its travel. Most new courses are attempting to limit the encroachment of Poa into their bent grass greens utilizing growth retardants and greens encroachment barriers.
Poa is a great surface 90% of the time IF you can control it and keep it healthy. My understanding is that it is more disease prone, less heat and drought resistant and requires more attention than the new strain bents.
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Bruce,
I remember one winter in Portland, OR (home of a lot of Poa Annua greens) where we had a spell of 0-10 degree (F) days with strong easterly winds out of the gorge. No snow was on the greens, so it was just bitterly cold, dry wind.
Many of those greens didn't survive.
So it can be extreme cold too...
Another nice thing I've seen with Bentgrass - it seems to do just fine if it's underwater for a bit too...
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Poa ANNUA is, by definition, an ANNUAL plant. That's why it throws up so many seedheads, to renew itself, because it thinks it's going to die every summer.
But some individual plants prove more resistant to drought than others ... so if you have it on your greens long enough, the more drought-resistant plants and their offspring start to dominate.
Either that, or God created Oakmont differently, for those who are so inclined.
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This last winter had the bent checkout unless winter watering was applied. Anyone who played Dismal River can attest. SH does rollout the reels likely once a month. Btw it was meant to read rub o green above.
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I've often wondered the same but have been too lazy/intimidated to ask. Isn't Winged Foot Poa too?
I like putting on Poa greens. Generally not as much grain to deal with and (again from my limited experiences) they seem to be more consistent from hole to hole on the courses I play.
I used to think they were generally slower ... until Oakmont showed me they can be made lightening fast.
I can't believe Oakmont is in such a micro-climate that it's the only place to make magic. I'm sure a lofty budget and years of staying the course (no pun intended) have lots to do with their success.
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Poa annua requires more water during the warmer months to stay healthy. Therefore, the fairways are softer and sport a lower coefficient of restitution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution
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Aren't the Oakland Hills greens Poa Annua?
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Bruce,
I remember one winter in Portland, OR (home of a lot of Poa Annua greens) where we had a spell of 0-10 degree (F) days with strong easterly winds out of the gorge. No snow was on the greens, so it was just bitterly cold, dry wind.
Many of those greens didn't survive.
So it can be extreme cold too...
Another nice thing I've seen with Bentgrass - it seems to do just fine if it's underwater for a bit too...
Dan, living in Minnesota you'd think that I would have mentioned desiccation, crown hydration, etc. but alas, I forget about Poa for several months of the year. Certainly open conditions can affect bent as well as Poa. Thanks for making your point.
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I think poa's okay in year around courses, but transition in the spring can be a mess at seasonal courses such as CC of Fairfax, Virginia where I played for years. Every spring the poa and the bent fought for water until it got hot enough for the poa to go away and the bent to thrive.
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Dan; I believe it really is a natural selection issue. At our home course where many of the greens have not been regrassed for more than 80 years we have one area near the rear of our 15th green, shaded by a stand of elms, which has perfect tightly growing smooth Poa Annua which is different from any other grass on our course. We don't spend any more money on that area nor do we have different methods of preparation in that area. Like Topsy, it just grew. We can't make it grow elsewhere and have had some turf experts look at it.
That said, even "normal" poa can be a fine surface but it is much harder and more expensive to maintain particularly in times of high temperatures. Also more susceptible to anthracnose. I am told much of this is due to the fact that it does not root as deeply as the better bents.
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Doesn't the Old Course have poa mixed into its greens? It seems that someplace I read that they allow the poa to encroach on the greens, but not to within a few feet of the common pin placement areas, especially leading up to The Open?
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The thing is, when you're talking about Poa annua, you're talking about something over 300 genotypes. There is no generic, Poa annua, just like there is no generic human being.
This is what makes Poa so difficult to control. chemicals effective on one variety won't affect another.
There is a general evolution of Poa in intensely maintained turf like golf greens. It first invades as a pure annual, being a bunch type grass, yellow/green, with loads of seedheads.
Over years and decades of greens maintenance, it begins to mutate/evolve/morph into a different grass altogehter. It becomes finer leafed, darker green, with fewer seedheads, and acts more like a perennial.
This phenomena has been well-observed, but never fully explained.
And so fine old courses like Oakhill have superb Poa greens. They have had the resources and expertise in place for 80 years to maintian the Poa, and it has adapted itself precisely to those conditions.
Here around Paris, the best greens are found on the old Poa greens at places like 70 year old St. Germain.
Speaking for myself, I don' fight Poa, I manage it. Life is simpler that way.
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8) ;) 8)
Poa puts even some of the best superintendents in a state of constant fear...the water has to be managed just right ...it's very susceptible to disease....and tends to be a little ratty at certain times of the year ...when it's great it's fabulous
I am totally in awe of the Oakmont greens...somehow they have morphed into this "super strain " of poa ...when Ivisited ther a few years ago they didn't appear to be under any stress at all...despite high play..brutal heat etc etc...perhaps the superintendents can chime in with some insights into the place , the greens appear to be otherworldly
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The first wave of Poa to invadea golf course is a coarse textured and bunchy leaved grass that produces a seed head throughout much of the playing season. It has shallow roots and it is highly suspectable to disease.
But after a few dozen years or so it can evolve into great turf with good shade tolerance.
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The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......
poa annua, MANAGED CORRECTLY, is the best putting surface.
WHY?
Because it is the densest grass out there.
MEANING...
The ball sits up nice and high creating a great ball roll.
IS IT PRONE TO DISEASE AND NEMATODES
Yes, but all grass is prone to disease. Poa is just more susceptible to anthracnose and nematodes. Does it happen all the time to say never have poa greens? No.
DOES IT PUT OUT SEED?
Yep, and if managed correctly the seeds will never affect anything. If the super doesnt groom the green (verticutting, brushing, topdressing) the seeds will stand up all the time and interfere with ball roll.
"poa cant be mowed low enough" ?!?!?!
ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!???? Please tell me why not. Ive seen poa greens on the east and west coast cut at .90". How much lower do you want it?
IS IT LESS HEAT RESISTANT?
Yes, and only because its directing its carbohydrate reserves at maintaining its seed production instead of transpiration. SOLUTION? SYRINGE IT!!! Whats so hard about syringing a green. Which by the way is not "watering a green". "watering a green" is what makes all of you guys end up with wet soggy greens in the summer. All the poa plant needs is a mist at a high frequency throuhout the days heat. It helps it transpirate and prevents overwatering.
DOES IT ROOT SHALLOWER?
Yep, but only when the super isnt doing everything he needs to be doing to get those roots deep in the fall winter and spring. Then maintain through the summer. The super needs to aerify at the right times of the year. He needs to fine tune his fert program. I cant believe the amount of supers who dont pay attention to soil reports and adjust their fert program to it. I see alot that only like granulars a handful of times throughout the year creating peaks and valleys in the greens growth pattern, not helping the roots. I see alot that just go out with cheap fert that isnt chelated or complexed with anything, the plant doesnt want to eat it. Its like giving a kid a flintstones vitamin. The plant is the same way, if the fert is cheap it has a salt content in it that the plant just closes its mouth when you hold the spoon up to it. Supers need to not only think about NPK but also Auxins, Gibberelins and Cytokynins. And then add them to their programs. These occur naturally in the plant and are the communicators between the roots, the crown and the foliage. Theyre vital and supers rarely have them on their radar.
THE SUPER HAS TO BE ON THE BALL
If hes not then poa is the wrong grass for your club. There are a ton of clubs all over the country that have poa greens and are in extreme enviornments. And they are succesful.
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE PLAYED ON POA?
I would have to say almost 100%. Just look at the past ten years. The open has been played at this countries best clubs. And what are their greens? poa.
NATURAL SELECTION
I would say that the most of us are golf purists. And if so why is poa being looked at so badly? If a bent green gets naturally taken over by poa then switch the management practices over to poa!! It naturally wants to be there!!! Embrace it. Its a great putting surface!!! But with that comes a tight program enforced by the super. If your super isnt good enough then switching over to the new bermudas or contiunually regrassing with bent is whats best for your club.
THE OAKMONTS, WINGED FOOTS, SHINNECOCKS, MERIONS, RIVIERAS and PEBBLE BEACHS "GET IT".
They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget.
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Can I just say a big thank you to all the people on this thread?
Poa is something that I always wondered about and I, for one, am learning a lot about it here. And it is the kind of knowledge you are not going to find on Wikipedia.
I think we may already have our first in series of Superintendent Lecture right here.
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Hey Guys,
Thanks for all the info and answers to my question. I was with many others wondering how Poa is so bad, yet every year while watching the US Open the greens seem to be Poa. I never thought I would get this many responses, but I guess I forgot how many extremely knowledgeable people are on this site. What a great reference. I guess I will have to change my attitude toward this dreaded grass. Thanks again.
Robert
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Wow Ian, Great response, Thanks!
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Thanks for the very informative post Ian.
Here in San Diego, Torrey Pines redid their greens with A-4 bent the same time Barona Creek opened with the same surfaces; this was in 2001. Seven years down the road Torrey is almost completely Poa, while Barona remains completely Bent. Why; because Barona pays people to get down on their hands and knees and dig it out with pen knives. Their Super, Sandy Clark, explained to us at the first Kings Putter that that was their only way to control it. So Barona can keep their greens drier, firmer and also faster. This is not to say that the greens at Torrey are worst, just different. Managed correctly, even by the City of San Diego, they can provide an excellent putting surface; as we all witnessed during the US Open. Bottom line here in a cool coastal climate is that you will eventually succumb to its invasion; just deal with it.
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IS IT PRONE TO DISEASE AND NEMATODES
Yes, but all grass is prone to disease. Poa is just more susceptible to anthracnose and nematodes. Does it happen all the time to say never have poa greens? No.
Nematodes are the reason that many NorCal courses are looking into alternatives to Poa.
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The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......
poa annua, MANAGED CORRECTLY, is the best putting surface.
WHY?
Because it is the densest grass out there.
Wow, Ian...that was a great treatise on Poa. Thanks. Is a typical stand of an evolved Poa really denser than say, velvet?
When our current Supt. built a new practice green he utilized a blend of Colonial, velvet and one other strain that I can't recall and I was really impressed with the density of the velvet. Whatever the mix, the green turned out superbly. Just curious and I'll look for your response.
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The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......
DOES IT PUT OUT SEED?
Yep, and if managed correctly the seeds will never affect anything. If the super doesnt groom the green (verticutting, brushing, topdressing) the seeds will stand up all the time and interfere with ball roll.
Ian,
Can you expand upon this a bit more? I'd like to refer the Super at our club to this thread, but would like to have a bit more information, a "how to." The reason I ask is that our course has had a serious Poa seeding problem. The greens look like the tops of broccoli spears.
Thanks,
John
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Ian; Denser than A3?
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John and Bruce,
Very quickly because Im at work, Ill elaborate more later today....
If the green looks like broccolli tops, without seeing it, I would say he needs to be on a regimented Primo schedule. The Primo is a chemical that inhibits the production of gibberilic acid. Giberillens are the acids that promote new growth at the meristem of the grass plant. Which is right at the very tip of each grass blade.
The primo will balance the growth patterns of the poa and the bent. When a bent green is infested with poa you can tend to see a "broccoli" effect because of their different growing patterns/rates.
I would recommend something like .125 oz/1000 sq ft of primo on a weekly or biweekly basis. If hes not familiar with Proxy (and he probably is), I would also look into that. Proxy in combination with Primo helps with seed head production.
Culturally, if the seedheads are out of control I would recommend brooming the greens to stand up the seedheads and follow immediately with a mow to chop them off. When I broom greens I have ten guys line up with pushbrooms and push them across the green back and forth a couple times. Some guys dont have the resources to do that so mower mounted brooms are also an option.
Bruce,
I can send you some university data on the density of poa, Ill have to look for it though later today. In the meantime, go out on a green and look at a patch of poa next to a patch of bent. get on your hands and knees and brush your finger across each. Youll see what I mean.
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SL.,
denser than any of the A's
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I can attest to one thing in regards to previous notions:
Poa in my opinion is or can be the best putting green surface.
True story from this summer. A Superintendent acquaintance of mine at a neighboring club and I were discussing his 10 year old bent greens that had serious poa annua infestations and what he could do to get rid of it. Low and behold, about the second week of July a nasty case of anthracnose popped up and axed a majority of his poa. Case closed (no that wasn't the plan of attack).
My belief is that by definition a weed (plant out of place) is directly attributed to Poa annua because courses seeded with primarily bent over the last however many years get poa infestations. It is what it is. Anyone who sees pristine bentgrass or bermuda greens know when they see poa. Out of place? Absolutely.
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...another quick note.
in reference to poa annuas density. One of poas characteristics that make it such a threat to infest another dense grass is its density. Bentgrass often losses the battle because its not as dense to keep the poa from choking it out.
Thats often one of the reasons why weeds occur. When a stand of grass is thin, weeds are the first thing to pop up in the holes. When a stand of grass is nice, healthy, lush and thick very little weeds are seen.
a weed by definition is the grass plant that is the minority. the bentgrass plant has always been a weed to me because Ive always wanted the poa to take over.
poa is very dense, denser than bentgrass, as well as moss!!! think about it, if youve ever seen moss on a green it can be just as invasive as poa. And if you feel it, it is a very dense plant.
we should have moss greens!!!
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Ian, I called Dr. Derek Settle, the in house agronomist and plant pathologist for the Chicago District Golf Association. He confirms your conclusion that poa is denser than any of the bent strains. However, he suggests that ,because there is such a great variance among the strains of poa and because it is impossible to cultivate a particular strain, achieving consistency is much more difficult. He also confirms poa's greater susceptibility to disease such as anthracnose and nematodes as well as its lesser resistance to heat. By the way, he is not a crusader to eliminate all poa on golf courses, he simply points out the strengths and weaknesses of various grasses based on research and observation contained in literature as well as that performed on our test plots and observed in the field.
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Ian, thanks. We have been using a retardant for the past 7 years to manage the poa so I understand a bit about that aspect of it as well as other management practices that you mention (grooming, etc.). Your responses are very thoughtful and thorough, however. I was merely curious about the density and your explanation of it "crowding out" bent makes sense.
Thanks again.
btw....I am not a Poa basher. I have putted on some superb Poa greens here in the Midwest for years and love the surface if it's managed properly.
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John and Bruce,
If the green looks like broccolli tops, without seeing it, I would say he needs to be on a regimented Primo schedule. The Primo is a chemical that inhibits the production of gibberilic acid. Giberillens are the acids that promote new growth at the meristem of the grass plant. Which is right at the very tip of each grass blade.
The primo will balance the growth patterns of the poa and the bent. When a bent green is infested with poa you can tend to see a "broccoli" effect because of their different growing patterns/rates.
I would recommend something like .125 oz/1000 sq ft of primo on a weekly or biweekly basis. If hes not familiar with Proxy (and he probably is), I would also look into that. Proxy in combination with Primo helps with seed head production.
You're right Ian, the record needs to be set straight on Poa.
Giberellic acid is responsible for cell elongation, not cell production. When we apply Primo, we are inhibiting vertical growth by shortening the length of the cells, not by making them fewer.
Meristematic tissue is found in the sheath, at the bottom of the leaf blade, not the tip. Grass, Poa or otherwise, grows from the bottom up, the tips are the oldest parts of the leaves.
Proxy (ethephon) has shown inconsistent results on Poa seedhead formation. Superintendents from the west coast U.S.A. report better results than those rom the east coast, probably due to the different varieties separated by geography.
Primo does make a world of difference on the smoothness of mixed bent/Poa greens.
Poa does have certain drawbacks, like susceptibility to anthracnose, nematodes, and heat stress. I deal with strains of Poa highly susceptible to Fusarium patch.
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youre right Steve, thanks. I confused it with the apical meristem found on other plants at their tips.
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The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......
They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget.
Ian,
Could you expand on that last line?
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The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......
poa annua, MANAGED CORRECTLY, is the best putting surface.
WHY?
Because it is the densest grass out there.
MEANING...
The ball sits up nice and high creating a great ball roll.
IS IT PRONE TO DISEASE AND NEMATODES
Yes, but all grass is prone to disease. Poa is just more susceptible to anthracnose and nematodes. Does it happen all the time to say never have poa greens? No.
DOES IT PUT OUT SEED?
Yep, and if managed correctly the seeds will never affect anything. If the super doesnt groom the green (verticutting, brushing, topdressing) the seeds will stand up all the time and interfere with ball roll.
"poa cant be mowed low enough" ?!?!?!
ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!???? Please tell me why not. Ive seen poa greens on the east and west coast cut at .90". How much lower do you want it?
IS IT LESS HEAT RESISTANT?
Yes, and only because its directing its carbohydrate reserves at maintaining its seed production instead of transpiration. SOLUTION? SYRINGE IT!!! Whats so hard about syringing a green. Which by the way is not "watering a green". "watering a green" is what makes all of you guys end up with wet soggy greens in the summer. All the poa plant needs is a mist at a high frequency throuhout the days heat. It helps it transpirate and prevents overwatering.
DOES IT ROOT SHALLOWER?
Yep, but only when the super isnt doing everything he needs to be doing to get those roots deep in the fall winter and spring. Then maintain through the summer. The super needs to aerify at the right times of the year. He needs to fine tune his fert program. I cant believe the amount of supers who dont pay attention to soil reports and adjust their fert program to it. I see alot that only like granulars a handful of times throughout the year creating peaks and valleys in the greens growth pattern, not helping the roots. I see alot that just go out with cheap fert that isnt chelated or complexed with anything, the plant doesnt want to eat it. Its like giving a kid a flintstones vitamin. The plant is the same way, if the fert is cheap it has a salt content in it that the plant just closes its mouth when you hold the spoon up to it. Supers need to not only think about NPK but also Auxins, Gibberelins and Cytokynins. And then add them to their programs. These occur naturally in the plant and are the communicators between the roots, the crown and the foliage. Theyre vital and supers rarely have them on their radar.
THE SUPER HAS TO BE ON THE BALL
If hes not then poa is the wrong grass for your club. There are a ton of clubs all over the country that have poa greens and are in extreme enviornments. And they are succesful.
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE PLAYED ON POA?
I would have to say almost 100%. Just look at the past ten years. The open has been played at this countries best clubs. And what are their greens? poa.
NATURAL SELECTION
I would say that the most of us are golf purists. And if so why is poa being looked at so badly? If a bent green gets naturally taken over by poa then switch the management practices over to poa!! It naturally wants to be there!!! Embrace it. Its a great putting surface!!! But with that comes a tight program enforced by the super. If your super isnt good enough then switching over to the new bermudas or contiunually regrassing with bent is whats best for your club.
THE OAKMONTS, WINGED FOOTS, SHINNECOCKS, MERIONS, RIVIERAS and PEBBLE BEACHS "GET IT".
They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget.
Its certainly not the best surface. In many cases its the only surface though.
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Sorry, I have not read any of the posts so this might have already been covered but in the last 100 years, how many U.S. Opens have been contested on anything but Poa greens? The answer might surprise some people ;)
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Giberellic acid is responsible for cell elongation, not cell production. When we apply Primo, we are inhibiting vertical growth by shortening the length of the cells, not by making them fewer.
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I know I can put giberellic acid on my camellias to make them bloom earlier and bloom larger. If I put this Primo on will it make them bloom later and smaller?
No back to you regularly scheduled show. ;)
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And for my 100th post!
Adrian,
Could you tell us what IS the best surface is and why?
Eric,
I knew someone would question that last line.....
"They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget."
This is what it come downs to.
I either know personally what alot of these clubs do or I have / had friends that work there, so Im generally familiar with their level of management practices. Ive also woked at numerous major tournaments. So its interesting to see the different levels of management from course to course.
Let me start with what DOESNT impress me.
1. Supers that allow the greens to be overwatered just to avoid any signs of stress. If a super has poa greens and the staff is gone at 3 on a hot day, the greens are being overwatered. Greens need to be syringed, not watered. Mist them lightly and frequently throughout the day. Only watering with a volume of water on the localized dry / hot spots. If staff and budgeting is an issue then the assistant and super, who are on salary, should be out there doing it. No cost to the club.
2. Supers that really dont have a fertilization program. When asked they say they go out with some generic and cheap NPK source. 20-20-20 or a 10-10-10. With Iron. That is putting absolutely no thought into a program. AND I SEE IT ALOT!!! I would bet the bank that their soil reports arent showing completely equal deficiencies in NPK. They are all needed at different rates at different times throughout the year. And like I said before, ITS RARE A SUPER IS THINKING ABOUT AUXINS, GIBBERILINS AND CYTOKYNINS. To most, products engineered with these are called snake oils. How is it a snake oil when these are naturally occurring substances in the grass plant? They are beneficial beyond belief!!
3. Supers that dont pay attention to the cultivation & grooming of their greens. Got alot of thatch and organic matter? Then think about changing the tine size and spacing on the aerifier!!! Dont keep doing what youre doing because "thats how its always been done". Are the greens puffy and bumpy? Then get them on a tighter verticutting and topdressing program. They could also be overfertilized. All the Nitrogen being put down in the summertime isnt necessarry and puffing up the grass plant. Again, look at the fert. This is also at no additional cost to the club.
When I made that comment about the top 100 clubs that host championships with poa greens I meant it. But let me also say that their are tons of other courses that arent on the top 100 with humble budgets that also get it done. And thats because they have an intelligent super that cares enough and can think outside the box and gets it done one way or another.
But my whole point with that comment is that you could walk into any operation at those clubs I mentioned, which also includes numerous others, and you can just tell that "they get it".
1. They are very specific and careful how greens get handwatered. They dont just throw some chump out there and say "water these".
2. The fert programs are very meticulous and thought out and cover all facets of the plants nutrition both foliarly and in the soil.
3. The cultivation and grooming program is scheduled like clockwork.
Operations like these achieve great greens through sound and aggressive agronomics. Doesnt matter if its poa, bent or bermuda. Managing a green correctly doesnt equate to alot more money.
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Ian-
How about a summary of your work history?
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Just so you know, Ian...
When I played Merion about 3-4 yeears ago, their greens were 90-95% bent grass. Very fast and smooth.
Also, Riviera has poa greens, but they overseed with bent in a cross-hatch pattern on a regular basis, and the greens have a significant percentage of both.
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Several years ago I had a salesman from Scott's look at my greens, ( pre-Black Mesa) which had quite a bit of poa and some anthracnose. He looked very pleased and declared "I see you're using our TGR" (turf growth regulator, promoted and sold for poa control). When I told him no, it was anthracnose, he said he could sell me some fungicide that would clear it right up.
"More supers have lost their jobs because of chemical salesmen than bad weather" Joe Tiano, PGA Pro that gave me my first job in the golf bidness.
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John,
Yes I know that the east at Merion is mostly bent since the renovation. The west however is still mostly poa. I was also told that they are not fighting the poa off the east's greens and by the 2013 Open they will mostly be poa. Can anyone on GCA confirm that?
And Im familiar with Riv's greens, I used to work there. They drop-spread bent after they aerify or graden verticut. To be quite honest, that works to a point but its not that easy to interseed bent on a poa green and have a huge success with germination. The bent definitely doesnt out compete the poa. But regardless, in my experience, you still can get small percentages of new bent to germinate. By the way Matt at Merion and Matt at Riviera are some of the most talented supers out there.
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A few questions for the turf experts.
I have been told that poa annua plants cannot survive for as long as bent grass while ice covers a green for extended periods of time. True or false?
Also, is the poa annua on the west coast identical to the poa annua on the east coast?
Finally, I have been told by some supers that there are products that prevent poa from encroaching on bentgrass without hurting the bentgrass turf. True or false?
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And for my 100th post!
Adrian,
Could you tell us what IS the best surface is and why?
Eric,
I knew someone would question that last line.....
"They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget."
This is what it come downs to.
I either know personally what alot of these clubs do or I have / had friends that work there, so Im generally familiar with their level of management practices. Ive also woked at numerous major tournaments. So its interesting to see the different levels of management from course to course.
Let me start with what DOESNT impress me.
1. Supers that allow the greens to be overwatered just to avoid any signs of stress. If a super has poa greens and the staff is gone at 3 on a hot day, the greens are being overwatered. Greens need to be syringed, not watered. Mist them lightly and frequently throughout the day. Only watering with a volume of water on the localized dry / hot spots. If staff and budgeting is an issue then the assistant and super, who are on salary, should be out there doing it. No cost to the club.
2. Supers that really dont have a fertilization program. When asked they say they go out with some generic and cheap NPK source. 20-20-20 or a 10-10-10. With Iron. That is putting absolutely no thought into a program. AND I SEE IT ALOT!!! I would bet the bank that their soil reports arent showing completely equal deficiencies in NPK. They are all needed at different rates at different times throughout the year. And like I said before, ITS RARE A SUPER IS THINKING ABOUT AUXINS, GIBBERILINS AND CYTOKYNINS. To most, products engineered with these are called snake oils. How is it a snake oil when these are naturally occurring substances in the grass plant? They are beneficial beyond belief!!
3. Supers that dont pay attention to the cultivation & grooming of their greens. Got alot of thatch and organic matter? Then think about changing the tine size and spacing on the aerifier!!! Dont keep doing what youre doing because "thats how its always been done". Are the greens puffy and bumpy? Then get them on a tighter verticutting and topdressing program. They could also be overfertilized. All the Nitrogen being put down in the summertime isnt necessarry and puffing up the grass plant. Again, look at the fert. This is also at no additional cost to the club.
When I made that comment about the top 100 clubs that host championships with poa greens I meant it. But let me also say that their are tons of other courses that arent on the top 100 with humble budgets that also get it done. And thats because they have an intelligent super that cares enough and can think outside the box and gets it done one way or another.
But my whole point with that comment is that you could walk into any operation at those clubs I mentioned, which also includes numerous others, and you can just tell that "they get it".
1. They are very specific and careful how greens get handwatered. They dont just throw some chump out there and say "water these".
2. The fert programs are very meticulous and thought out and cover all facets of the plants nutrition both foliarly and in the soil.
3. The cultivation and grooming program is scheduled like clockwork.
Operations like these achieve great greens through sound and aggressive agronomics. Doesnt matter if its poa, bent or bermuda. Managing a green correctly doesnt equate to alot more money.
1. "No cost to the club" Are you suggesting the time of the Superintendent and the Assistant Superintendent is of no value? ANY TIME ANYONE is working on the golf course and/or club, that time has a value.
2. What does a growth regulator like Primo regulate? What is one of the active ingredients in A____n or Seaweed or Kelp Extract? Would you implement a program with both as components of the program? Why?
Have you ever seen a Phosphorus deficient grass plant or for that matter Potassium? Do a little research into the work Dr. Rossi has embarked on regarding fertility needs (no conclusions but interesting data nonetheless).
Have you ever seen a soil report that doesn't show a deficiency among the cations that requires attention? Have you thought that maybe the recommendations within the soil test are based on yield (plant growth) not on plant health and surface playability
3. If you decrease the fertilization of a given area and increase the vertical mowing/grooming and topdressing, are you sure there is no additional cost to the club? I remember paying $75/yard for green topdressing sand back in 1998. I cannot fathom the cost of that sand today. Also when decreasing the fertility, would you not increase the risk of Anthracnose and other secondary pathogens associated with low fertility? Fungicides cost money too.
Ian, I hope this didn't seem too harsh but, I had to throw my three cents into the fray.
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Giberellic acid is responsible for cell elongation, not cell production. When we apply Primo, we are inhibiting vertical growth by shortening the length of the cells, not by making them fewer.
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I know I can put giberellic acid on my camellias to make them bloom earlier and bloom larger. If I put this Primo on will it make them bloom later and smaller?
No back to you regularly scheduled show. ;)
In theory, yes. But it will make the whole plant smaller and slower-growing, leaves and all.
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Giberellic acid is responsible for cell elongation, not cell production. When we apply Primo, we are inhibiting vertical growth by shortening the length of the cells, not by making them fewer.
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I know I can put giberellic acid on my camellias to make them bloom earlier and bloom larger. If I put this Primo on will it make them bloom later and smaller?
No back to you regularly scheduled show. ;)
In theory, yes. But it will make the whole plant smaller and slower-growing, leaves and all.
Are we still talking about grass? Or are we talking about something more personal :)?
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In New Zealand, it was realised some time ago that with the budgets we operate on, complete removal or eradication of poa is simply a pipe dream. So a number of courses have embraced it and in fact now build new greens and propagate them with the corings of the other poa greens on the course.
The results are greens that are grown in and in play up to 2 months sooner than seeding, a much more consistent surface with the rest of the course both in putting and ball reaction upon hitting the green, an easier maintenance program of being able to treat all the greens as the same grass species.
Most of the poa greens here that putt well are long established and have "mutated" into a strain of perennial poa that has much higher density and low seed head production. I have seen these same changes occur in greens of around 10 years old so this maybe represents a time frame for the "mutation" of the grass to take place.
I have personally yet to see a course have success in achieving a totally poa free surface. Many of the chemicals used to control the poa have negative effects on the desirable grasses also.
In my opinion, the best way to discourage poa is through the "acid theory" management approach of controling the PH in favour of the desired grass which is in conflict with the Ph for poa.
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Bentgrass is a better surface. A pure fescue sward is magnificent also, I have little knowledge of Bermuda's or other southern turf grasses.
I would have thought most supers strive to have surfaces free of poa, though its not easy and in some climates impossible(ish) and by (ish) I think you could keep poa free swards in these difficult areas if you did not play on them when the weather was a bit off... ie in the UK most of the time, so thats not practical.
Pure swards are exactly that, the behaviour of the grass is pretty much the same so the grasses grow together and whilst they may be at 3mm at 7.AM they are likely to be say 4mm at NOON.
Poa comes in many types even over a squared metre and whilst the plants may all be at 3mm early, those plants are not the same height later in the day, resulting in a bumpy surface. Poa is possibilty the least disease resistant of the 'grasses' and there are plenty of nastys that take patches out, resulting in bumpy greens.
As I said in my first post, its often the only grass and the positives and negatives with this plant is it grows where many others wont.
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Pure swards are exactly that, the behaviour of the grass is pretty much the same so the grasses grow together and whilst they may be at 3mm at 7.AM they are likely to be say 4mm at NOON.
Poa comes in many types even over a squared metre and whilst the plants may all be at 3mm early, those plants are not the same height later in the day, resulting in a bumpy surface.
Adrian,
It doesn't need to be that way. With the plant growth regulator trinexypac-ethyl (i.e. Primo) the difference in growth between varieties and species during the course of the day is reduced to being imperceptible.
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Poa, with enough money, can be a pretty surface, perhaps the the best (some guys can get a monostand looking like the felt on a pool table). But, let's not fool ourselves here, poa is more expensive to maintain in most areas of the country, except the Monterrey peninsula and the pacific northwest. The spray programs to keep anthracnose and summer patch under control is more expensive than a disease control program for bent.
So now, we can talk about disaster prevention, poa is on such life support that it spends alot of its life cycle looking for an excuse to die. Let's throw in nematodes (big movement in California to regrass greens to bentgrass to help withstand the onslaught of Nematodes...bent has a better root system to withstand the attacks) which are no impossible to control as the only proven control product, Nemacur, has been pulled off the market. Oh yea, I forgot, poa wants to die when under a sheet of ice.
Now, I am not talking about the perennial poa types...these seem to be a much more sustainable plant. It is just that there isn't a monostand of this biotype out there other than Oakmont that I am aware of. Friends don't let freinds pretend to be Oakmont. There is one Oakmont, with one type of poa, with an unlimited budget, and a benevolent dictator running the show...it is not a good example for promoting poa use. It is a good example to promote more research into its turf. Oakmont is a freak of nature.
The true skill in greenkeeping is picking the most sustainable grass for the part of the world you are in and implementing programs to encourage that.
Ian, I thought you had a great treatise on poa back there, except for the part where you sound like a fertilizer/ snake oil salesman and your comment on budgets. Yes, small budget clubs can be creative in order to afford to maintain poa, but that doesn't change the fact that bent is cheaper, more consistent, and more sustainable.
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One of the things I have noticed with anthracnose is it seems to be more severe on the edges of the greens in the clean-up pass area.
I was wondering if any other superintendents have had that same experience?
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Anyone have experience with Velocity? I saw one post on the Stonewall thread, which was positive.
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As someone in the golf maintenance business having worked on nothing but Poa greens until my current course, which is 7 years old and still about 80-90% bentgrass, from a maintenance & financial standpoint, bentgrass is a much more desirable grass. Why?
1) At least in this regioin, bentgrass is far less susceptible to diseases. I've used maybe 1/4th of the fungicides on my bentgrass greens than I've had to use at other courses with Poa. A couple top notch courses I know have to be on a preventative fungicide program, spraying almost every other week, just to prevent their greens from being attacked and dessimated.
2) Bentgrass has much lower fertility requirements. Most supers I know with Poa greens have excellent fertility programs, but aim for a yearly fertilization of around 4# nitrogen per 1000 sq ft on their greens. I'm on pace for closer to 2# N per 1000 and my coworkers say the grass has never looked healthier.
3) Bentgrass is much deeper rooting and, as a result, requires a less intensive irrigation management program. Not necessarily less water than Poa, but I use deep, infrequent irrigation on my greens and have only had to hand water them twice all summer, even in 100+ degree temps. Poa, being much shallower rooted, needs CONSTANT attention, as Ian describes, with syringing and handwatering, requiring more time from somebody that could be spent elsewhere.
As for the playing quality of Poa versus Bent, I will personally select Bentgrass, even though I've played on some EXCELLENT, well-maintenaned Poa greens that just as good as any Bent. But on average, bentgrass tends to provide a more uniform and consistant playing surface, through the day and through the seasons (Poa that is not well maintenaned typically gets seedheads and also becomes puffy and bumpy in the afternoons).
But that last bit is purely opnion. The facts about lower maintenance and financial input aren't, and I would be interested to see someone argue against them.
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??? ??? ??? :)
I truncated my poa post Friday as work called , isn't that awful!
I appreciate Ian's exuberence over poa annua as a surface butttttttttt only really high quality superintendents , generally armed very large budgets can keep it in championship condition over the course of a season ,
It wasn't that long ago that the whole east coast ... (particularly Mid Atlantic) was facing an anthracnose outbreak of bilblical proportions ..good superintendents had their worry beads, rabbits feet and rosaries all worn out from action!
Poa is fabulous when perfect but if you watch the tournaments on the West Coast every year you can be sure to see balls hopping and dipping on the poa, withthe appropriate wailing and whining by the touring pro's who are unaccustomed to yipping four footers all week long...
Hence the search continues for the perfect bent, which will grow in the spring and not have all the frailties of poa....Ian knows that a bad guy on the hose can turn a perfect green into a bad one rather quickly in the mid-summer heat ...hence the fear of poa continues for many even today
If only the secrets of Oakmonts greens were revealed to the masses and we could get a permanent cure for anthracnose
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Just a pet peeve of mine, but, why not call it ANNUAL BLUEGRASS! Nobody on here refers to other grasses as Festuca rubra, Agrostis palustris, Lolium perenne, or Cynodon dactylon. Poa is the genus name for all bluegrasses. So, when you call annual bluegrass, Poa, realistically I know which grass you are talking about, but technically, it is incorrect.
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Trying to answer my own question about the poa at Oakmont -- which should encourage the experts to post the correct answers! -- here's what I found.
Arnold Palmer said when he began playing Oakmont in the 1940s, the greens were bent; however, "The poa just came in gradually and slowly over the years," he told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette in 2007. "Oakmont didn't change their whole process to accommodate poa. They just kept doing what they've always done. Poa is a type of grass that becomes acquainted to how its cared for, and they cared for it just like we did at Latrobe Country Club."
Over the years, poa crept in and apparently underwent an amazing evolution -- I think that is the right word. According to superintendent John Zimmers, Oakmont's poa actually is perennial. Here is a brief excerpt from a June 2007 Post-Gazette article:
Oakmont Poa annua is a bit freaky. It doesn't produce any seed at all. Instead, all of its energy goes into sustaining itself year after year.
"It's a perennial annual," [Penn State agronomist David] Huff said paradoxically. "It certainly has a mystique about it."
If you wanted to build a golf green from scratch and wanted to seed it with Oakmont grass, you're out of luck. There are no seeds. Oakmont grows reserve patches of the grass by saving the plugs when the greens are aerated, and then transplanting the plugs elsewhere.
...or maybe not: a 2006 article comparing Oakmont's poa to Winged Foot's noted Oakmont's produces less seed. The articles conflict; does anyone know one way or the other? If I had to bet, I would bet on the 2007 article that calls it seedless, as it carries quotes from Huff and Zimmers -- seems better researched.
Less or none regardless, Zimmers maintains a stand of the stuff (using aeration plugs) as he can't get any / enough seed from it or anywhere else.
And it is unique to Oakmont; even next-door Oakmont East cannot grow it. As obviously significant as the strain is, sustaining this special grass requires special conditions and those conditions do not appear fully understood, things like soil conditions as well as how maintenance has "conditioned" the grass. Palmer says Oakmont greens are elevated and this makes a difference, too.
Even if clubs somehow could control for soil, climate, architecture, maintenance, etc., still these courses would face another problem: supply. The grass produces few / no seeds. Huff has been trying for 10 years to produce a plant from the Oakmont strain that produces seeds. The 2007 article said seed production "may" be three years away.
Which calls to mind the heroic efforts of two scientists to find seeds of the seedless Persian Lime, a quest memorably documented by John McPhee in "Oranges." Hand-picking their way through the pulp of tens of thousands of limes -- two dump trucks' worth -- they managed 250 seeds.
They planted these seeds. And got two lime trees. But what amazed their fellow scientists? That they managed to get even two from 250 seeds!
So good luck to David Huff...
Now, does anyone out there have the facts? What about those who worked at Oakmont or graduated from Penn Street?
Mark
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Michael,
I haven't played Oakmont, but I can pretty much guarantee that they don't have magic Poa there. I am sure they have old, well adapted varieties, but Poa will never truly be a monostand. That said give them credit for developing an excellent program and consistently having some of the best greens in the world.
Another question I hear frequently especially in the Pacific Northwest (where most of the top clubs have Poa greens) is when discussing a newer course with Bent greens that are struggling. Why didn't they seed that course to Poa. The truth is, is that there is very little for Poa seed on the market. What seed there is out there tends to produce plants that produce a huge amount of seed heads. The reason for this makes sense when you think about from a seed production perspective. A seed producer needs a plant that will produce a lot of seed so it can be harvested and sold. Quality Poa greens produce very few seedheads so those varieties are eliminated. Your best bet is to start with Bent and determine whether or not the battle to keep the Poa out is worth it.
What happens as Poa takes over a green is the annual seedy types come in first, this is what you will see on greens that are half Poa and half Bent. This is also where Poa gets its bad reputation. Eventually though more short lived Perennial varieties take over, and that is what you see when you see the dense, upright turf that can be cut at below .100". This is I'm sure what they have at Oakmont. For any scientists out there the difference is the annual biotypes are known as Poa annua var. annua, and the short seasoned perennial types are known as Poa annua var. reptans.
Poa is not correct in every situation, in fact it is probably to be fought in most situations. But in certain parts of the country it makes for a putting surface that I would put up against any other in a second. To those who say Poa can't be maintained at high standards on a lower budget course, I would definitely disagree. It is a challenging grass, but I would certainly not say it is any more challenging or costly than trying to maintain Bentgrass while trying to fight Poa. Chemical control is expensive, as is labor to remove it by hand.
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As an FYI - the greens at the public course next door (Oakmont East) are the same grass as the championship course. I am guessing but I bet they probably get half the attention as the big course greens but are still pure putting surfaces.
By the way, I believe you could count on one hand the number of times the U.S. Open has been played on greens that did not have Poa.
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Anyone have experience with Velocity? I saw one post on the Stonewall thread, which was positive.
Jeff,
You probably saw my post on that other thread. Our Supt. has had very good results with the Velocity program this year. It did a great job in wiping out the Poa that we still had in our fairways.
Overall I've seen some Poa greens that have been fantastic but those courses have not been in this Middle Atlantic region. Even the very best courses like Pine Valley struggle each year to maintain their primarily Poa greens through the stress of the summer and it isn't due to a lack of $$ or a lack of expertise by the Supt. It just seems that in the DC to Philly area, the poa is very difficult to maintain. There are courses just over an hour away in North Jersey that seem to handle the poa fine.
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Just a pet peeve of mine, but, why not call it ANNUAL BLUEGRASS! Nobody on here refers to other grasses as Festuca rubra, Agrostis palustris, Lolium perenne, or Cynodon dactylon. Poa is the genus name for all bluegrasses. So, when you call annual bluegrass, Poa, realistically I know which grass you are talking about, but technically, it is incorrect.
Because it's a matter of convenience.
"Annual bluegrass" is five syllables and fifteen letters to write, while "Poa", is one and a half syllables and a concise three letters.
It has become an industry standard to refer to "Poa annua" as "Poa". Everyone in the turf business expects that when you say "Poa" alone that you are refering to the annual variety. If you want to speak of the other bluegrasses, you must add their species name, "Poa pratensis", or "Poa trivialis" (more commonly referred to as "Poa triv").
Also, it avoids confusion, internationally. In the British Isles, the common names for bluegrass is "meadowgrass", as in "annual meadowgrass", which is even more of a mouthful than "annual bluegrass". But everyone knows what you mean by "Poa".
Here in France, the commmon name for annual bluegrass is "pâturin", still, everyone understands "Poa", as they do in Spain, Portugal, Australia, South Africa and so on.
Language is a living entity that evolves, much like Poa on an Oakmont green.
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Poa does not like heat and is prone to disease, however, it is the most true surface you can putt on and the speed is very consistent.
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Eric Johnson,
"1. "No cost to the club" Are you suggesting the time of the Superintendent and the Assistant Superintendent is of no value? ANY TIME ANYONE is working on the golf course and/or club, that time has a value."
.....of course time has a value. But lets say I need to spray or flush greens or do whatever is needed that could be done in the evening time to free up manpower during the day and not interfere with golfers. You can bet its gonna be myself or another salaried worker doing it so as to not be paying hourly wages and overtime to get it done. I have no problem whatsoever working all day and then into the evening especially if it allows me to get more done during the day with hourly staff. I dont punch a clock for my own golf courses good and I never will. I love being out there and often I think I would do it for free.
"2. What does a growth regulator like Primo regulate? What is one of the active ingredients in A____n or Seaweed or Kelp Extract? Would you implement a program with both as components of the program? Why?"
.....Primo inhibits Giberillic Acid production. And there are three main ingredients in Astron, or Seaweed and Kelp extract. Gibberellic Acid, Auxins and Cytokinins. GA's are in the foliage, Auxins are in the crown and Cytokinins are in the roots. These hormones are produced in the plant and translocate throughout. The GA's move from the foliage down to the roots, Cytokinins move from the roots up to the foliage while the Auxins move up and down to the foliage and the roots, but only toward the concentrations of GA's. All three of these are vital and its even more vital to have them in correct proportions in the plant. Having them in the right ratios "tricks" the plant physiologically into thinking that everything is AOK and it pushes itself to grow more roots. With Astron, all of them are in the perfect ratio to accomplish this. So would I use Primo and Astron in a program together? Absolutely!!! Its accomplishing more roots without the flush in topgrowth.
"Have you ever seen a Phosphorus deficient grass plant or for that matter Potassium? Do a little research into the work Dr. Rossi has embarked on regarding fertility needs (no conclusions but interesting data nonetheless)."
.....Phosphorus and Potassium deficiencies? Absolutely!!! You may not have ever seen it personally, that doesnt mean that it never happens and I have reports and pictures to prove it. Dr. Rossi's study will never come to a conclusion. Its physiologically proven that the grass plant needs certain elements and in certain amounts. His studies data is very inconsistent and will never be conclusive by way of the scientific method.
"Have you ever seen a soil report that doesn't show a deficiency among the cations that requires attention? Have you thought that maybe the recommendations within the soil test are based on yield (plant growth) not on plant health and surface playability"
....What planet are you from? Of course Ive seen reports that dont show a deficiency. Because I base every single spray and spreader application off of the report. If you have a program putting down the right rates at the right frequency that is in line with the CEC of the soil its very possible to have all the elements in desired ranges. I dont know who you do soil testing through but if they are making recommendations geared towards plant yield. You might want to change labs. Plant health is what the report is all about!!! The most important element is the one that is most deficient. Thats because they are all important for the plants health. The elements are like vitamins. If the plant doesnt take its vitamins its going to get sick and cant perform its best. Plant yield is only the product of a healthy grass plant.
"3. If you decrease the fertilization of a given area and increase the vertical mowing/grooming and topdressing, are you sure there is no additional cost to the club? I remember paying $75/yard for green topdressing sand back in 1998. I cannot fathom the cost of that sand today. Also when decreasing the fertility, would you not increase the risk of Anthracnose and other secondary pathogens associated with low fertility? Fungicides cost money too."
.....I never said anything about decreasing the fertilization of a given area. I talked about putting correct amounts down based on soil / tissue reports and the plants needs. If a green needs to be verticut and topdressed more often to achieve the level of quality the club desires then that amount of cultivation is the CORRECT amount of cultivation. The old amount is not enough and the super is doing a disservice to the club by not realizing more needs to be done. If the correct amount of cultivation is being performed then the extra cost is what it is, its not an extra cost anymore. Its the needed cost. Fungicides cost money? Really? When the plant's fertility needs are met and the plant is healthy, that plant now runs less risk of being innoculated by a pathogen. I know thats true with even my own body!
And why would you pay that money for green topdressing sand? Why do you even need green topdressing sand? Thats such a waste of club's money. That is what you topdressed greens with? Dont get me wrong, I use green sand. I use it for tee and fairway divots and ball marks on greens. But I buy cheaper masonry sand for tees and fairways and dye it with green lesco paint in a old cement mixer. There is absolutely no way in hell I could justify using it as a topdressing for all of the greens because its completely not necessary and not practical.
"Ian, I hope this didn't seem too harsh but, I had to throw my three cents into the fray."
....dont worry it wasnt harsh. It just wasnt very correct.
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Just a pet peeve of mine, but, why not call it ANNUAL BLUEGRASS!
because it is called annual meadow grass Steve :) or no Einjährige Rispengras where I am living. Maybe that is why its easier to say Poa Annua.
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For what it is worth my opinion about poa annua is as it is probably the most successful grass art despite never being grown on any scale it is likely to appear in any sward if the conditions allow. If it is the dominant grass then you are going to have times when the putting surface is going to be less than perfect but this can be said for most grasses. If handled correctly then it will provide a very good putting surface.
I would never try and promote poa annua but am quite happy to live with it. Just to be controversial I would say any super who actively promotes the grass to 100% of the sward has lost the plot or is not motivated to do his work properly
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Jon,
Mark Woodward, CGCS, oversaw the rennovation of Torrey Pines for the last US Open. He PURPOSEFULLY aerated the greens 8 times (the number could be off by 1 or 2) in the 16 months leading up to the tournament to PURPOSEFULLY encourage Poa annua germination and infiltration into the greens in order to try and create 100% Poa greens (or as close to it as he could get).
He is now the new CEO of the Golf Course Superintendents Association of America.
Did we just hire a guy who "lost the plot or is not motivated to do his work properly?"
P.S. I STILL think bentgrass is the best putting surface I have ever maintained or played on, as per my post above. Still waiting for someone to debate that.
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JS,
I don't know if you did ;D No, of course you didn't and I have of course being far to general in my statement and it was intended to provoke just a little bit. Is what Mark Woodward did wrong? No, of course not but I would point out that preparing a course for a US Open isn't your normal supers job. I think it would be a brave man who pushes a 100% sward of any grass sort if he is working at a club all year round.
As I said in my last post
For what it is worth my opinion about poa annua is as it is probably the most successful grass art despite never being grown on any scale it is likely to appear in any sward if the conditions allow. If it is the dominant grass then you are going to have times when the putting surface is going to be less than perfect but this can be said for most grasses. If handled correctly then it will provide a very good putting surface.
What is interesting JS is that it seems that you don't agree with the 100% Poa annua to produce the best surface
P.S. I STILL think bentgrass is the best putting surface I have ever maintained or played on, as per my post above. Still waiting for someone to debate that.
or were you being general like me ;)
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Bethpage Black has Poa greens. They were stimping at 14 & 15+ during the Open and wer universally praised by all of the players.
They are still in superb condition.
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Jon,
You've read my post correctly. I'm not convinced Poa is the best putting surface. Bentgrass wins hand down in my mind right now. From all I've experienced, heard and seen, Poa is too tempermental.
Many on this thread are correct, there are some brilliant examples of near-perfectly conditioned Poa, especially in major events. However, I think you could also find similar examples where Poa greens in Tour events were admonished and blamed over and over for missed putts and poor scoring by the world's best. Likewise, Poa greens on a day to day basis, excluding these key events where they are pushed and manicured to the max, tend to yeild wildly variable results. Even more so on your average private or daily fee public courses.
Bentgrass, while it may have some minor faults, seems to me to be a much more solid, consistant, logical grass to work towards on greens surfaces, should the climate support it.
I'm not sure this thread is intended to be Ian's claim that Poa is the BEST, but rather that it shouldn't get such a bad rap, which I can agree with. If he, and others, are indeed trying to claim it to be the best, I don't know why anyone hasn't argued against the points I make for bentgrass being superior, from a maintenance and playability standpoint.
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JS,
I'd agree with you about the superiority of Bent vs. Poa, especially in my area of the country. I'm not sure if any Supt. who has workerd in this region would agree that Poa is a better surface. From what I've seen, it is more labor intensive, more susecptible to disease, less heat resistent and overall more difficult to maintain. That's not to say there aren't good greens around here with a mix of both grasses.
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To say which grass is the best is such a subjective thing, everyone is entitled to their opinions.
But for the non superintendents, you should only be making comments on which surface you prefer to putt on. I cant stand armchair superintendents that throw out bland generalizations about something they hardly know about. Im a numbers and facts kinda guy, dont make a statement you cant back up with first hand experience, proven science or data.
The reality is, I wouldnt do anything different with bent greens than what I already do for poa greens.....
I would still do biweekly foliar fert spray applications.
I would still do biweekly soils fert spray applications.
I would still be on a preventative fungicide program when pressure is high.
I would still have 2 to 3 guys syringing in the heat of the afternoons.
I would still aerify the same way.
I would still broom, verticut and topdress the same way.
I would still mow at the same heights.
I would still roll 4 to 5 times a week.
I have worked with both grasses. If I had new greens with 100% bent it would be my first priority to combat poa and keep it out. If I had greens with 50 / 50 poa-bent. I would promote the poa to get 100% poa. If half of the greens are already poa the battle has been lost. They are too far gone to get rid of the poa IMO. You start killing off that much poa youre going to have ugly greens and you may lose your job. Promoting the poa is the only logical thing to do.
I have also been with poa greens in South Carolina, Philly, Met area and Southern California. I was at Ridgewood Country Club the summer of the big Anthracnose invasion which led to the big study done at Rutgers. i know how bad it can get.
The only difference with having poa greens would be an increase in fungicide frequency only at the threat of Anthracnose. Does that happen everyday or every year? maybe at someplaces, but no. Its not happening all over all the time. Not enough for poa to get its reputation it has gotten by armchair superintendents.
Heres some reality....
Bent gets its share of disease, youre an idiot if you think its less susceptible to all the diseases.
poa is only susceptible to one more disease that bent is, Anthracnose.
All of you guys that talk about bent greens being cheaper?! Do you even know the amount of time, labor and money that goes in to keeping them poa free? If you dont then Ill give you the number to the superintendent at Bent Creek Country Club in Lancaster,Pa.. His name is Jim Loke. He is only super the club has had in its history which I think has been close to twenty years. I think it was built in the early nineties. Jim has kept those greens poa free since they were built.
poa MAY have to be sprayed more frequently for the threat of anthracnose.
But bent WILL ALWAYS have to be managed to keep it poa free.
I respect everyones opinion on here but unless you can give me some hard numbers and data I think you should just keep your opinion to yourself unless your commenting on which you prefer to putt on.
ps......funny thing. LACC is 36 holes. The North Course is mostly bent. The South Course is entirely poa. The South Course doesnt have to spray more fungicides than the North. And it doesnt cost more to maintain them. The only difference is the Souths poa needs A LITTLE more Nitrogen per year. And the members that I know and are friends with prefer the South's putting surface.
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8) ??? 8)
Hey Ian , I don't tend to claim to know anywhere near what you or a good superintendent does about growing grass...however to say that because you're not a superintendent you can't have an opinion is pretty silly.
does that mean that everyone who hasn't built and designed a course can't have an opinion on architecture...
I'm in agreement with your post relative to poa to a great extent, yet golf course operators , architects and most importantly superintendents will continue to search for better grasses ...why wouldn't they???
Have a lttle tolerance ...it' obvious your opinion has merit
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Archie, your right and I retract the statement. The spirit of the website is based on opinions. I just get annoyed at generalizations that cant
be backed up with fact. And with these posts Im not trying to be the poa spokesperson. I love both surfaces.
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;D ;D 8) :)
well said
archie
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Deleted. Nevermind...
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Ian I dont think it is subjective. The best or preferred is Bent grass, you yourself said you would try and promote bent over poa, most Super's would do the same. I think we all except that a life with poa is often the only way, but there are climates which favour bents and other grasses and allow them to be more competitive than poa.
Also poa contracts fusarium very easily and that can take out big patches turf, fusarium does not really affect bent. You could argue take all hits bentgrass and not poa, although in fairness take all is much more likely to impact younger sterile systems than established.
Where I agree with you is that there does come a time as the poa invades that you may as well live with the stuff and promote it.
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I know that it shouldn't be a factor, but appearance can be very important to a membership. I recently visited a club which has 54 holes and was regrassing the fairways and resurfacing the putting greens 9 holes at a time. The greens were Poa and they were being redone in A-4 bent grass. (They were using bermuda for the fairways) I looked at the A-4 greens and the appearance was incredible - the color was consistent and made it much easier to see the green contours. I didn't get to putt but the greens looked smooth and the members I spoke to loved the new surfaces. It has been my experience that Poa greens have many colors in them and the grasses have various textures - am I incorrect in assuming that all Poa is like that?
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Adrian,
It is very subjective. The mere fact that myself and tons of other superintendents around the world enjoy poa greens and enjoy managing them makes it very subjective.
If you could show me some examples where bentgrass naturally outcompeted poa because of the favorable climate I would love that.
Are you sure the fungus fusarium only likes poa and not bent?
I would only ever promote bent when the poa poulation is minimal. I would only promote poa when the bent poulation is minimal.
All it takes to make poa greens consistent is a verticutting / topdressing program and 20 oz. of primo every two weeks.
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Adrian,
It is very subjective. The mere fact that myself and tons of other superintendents around the world enjoy poa greens and enjoy managing them makes it very subjective.
If you could show me some examples where bentgrass naturally outcompeted poa because of the favorable climate I would love that.
Are you sure the fungus fusarium only likes poa and not bent?
I would only ever promote bent when the poa poulation is minimal. I would only promote poa when the bent poulation is minimal.
All it takes to make poa greens consistent is a verticutting / topdressing program and 20 oz. of primo every two weeks.
Are you really saying you would prefer a 100% poa green to a 100% bentgrass green?
Subjective is not what you say it is, nothing to do with enjoying or managing. I am guessing that 99% of all new green constructions are sown without Poa in the mix, now unless the 1% are the real clever ones the 99% of us are objectively wrong.
Fusarium rarely touches the European bentgrasses, but ravages through the poa and is promoted under dampish conditions (very UK), high fertility also contributes.
I would have thought Florida would have conditions suited for grasses to out compete poa, South East Asia would, the greens in Southern Spain are pretty pure also.
With your management methods of Poa in the UK, your budgets would bust most clubs, we simply dont have enough staff, many clubs only have 4 greenstaff and very few have in excess of 6.
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Adrian,
It is very subjective. The mere fact that myself and tons of other superintendents around the world enjoy poa greens and enjoy managing them makes it very subjective.
If you could show me some examples where bentgrass naturally outcompeted poa because of the favorable climate I would love that.
Are you sure the fungus fusarium only likes poa and not bent?
I would only ever promote bent when the poa poulation is minimal. I would only promote poa when the bent poulation is minimal.
All it takes to make poa greens consistent is a verticutting / topdressing program and 20 oz. of primo every two weeks.
Ian,
Where are you superintendent now? Where were you superintendent before that?
I have spoken on this thread of an example where Poa out-competed bent. Golf las Americas, Tenerife, Canary Islands, Spain, where I was superintendent from '98-01. Pure Pennlinks, no Poa, (though I did battle with bermuda 419 encroachment).
I am now superintedent at Golf de Joyenval, just outside of Paris, and, I've said before on this thread, listen to me now, Ian, POA IS WAY, WAY, WAY MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO FUSARIUM THAN IS BENTGRASS. I have seven years of grey hairs to prove it.
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Ian,
Very interesting comments. My guess is that the vast majority of courses in the Northeast US are a 50/50 poa-bent mix (or a percentage close to that.) And my assumption is that the Superintendents on these courses are probably managing these greens in a similar fashion: pulling cores and overseeding with 100% bent. Seems to me that they are in a constant battle to increase the percentage of bent grass. But the poa is somehow more inherently aggressive, or else it would lose the battle due to years overseeding of bent, right?
So if the above is true, you suggest that superintendents, and the USGA agronomists advising them, may be on the wrong track. That is a pretty interesting and bold statement.
If you actually went 100% poa, would you have to more conservative during the weather extremes that we experience in the northeast? Would you have to cut/roll the poa-dominant greens less often during heat waves? When we get torrential rains in the evenings, would you have to be even more careful when you send the equipment out the next day? And if the answer to those questions are yes, would you expect slower putting surfaces and more member complaints about green speeds?
Lastly, how close are we to a better "seedless" poa strain? If that really works, do you see a movement away from "aeration/overseed with bent" practice?
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Ian,
I don't know if you're trying to really rile up some superintendents, but while you do have some good commentary on the many benefits of a well-maintained predominantly Poa green, many of your statements are way off base.
Where do I even start?
First off, you might need to look introspectively a bit if you're going to start calling out "armchair superintendents." By stating this it seems to me that you class yourself as a much better superintendent than those you denigrate. However, any good superintendent would know that each grass type must be managed differently. Sure, some of the basics are the same. But by no means would a good superintendent fertilize, irrigate and thatch manage Poa greens and Bentgrass greens the EXACT same way, as you claim you would. Let's touch on each point:
1) Bi-weekly foliar fert applications: In case you didn't see my post, I have 90-95% bentgrass greens. Working on Poa greens before, I would spray bi-weekly with foliar ferts. With these greens, I use significantly less nitrogren and once this summer went 5 weeks in between 0.1#N applications with absolutely no detriment to turf health or aesthetic appearance. I could go lower rates and spray more often, but why? I had no flushes of growth and no need to add any more fertility to the mix. Good soil management and knowing your turf can allow you to do that. Why spend money and time on fertilizer if your turf doesn't need it?
2) Bi-weekly soil ferts spray: I don't know exactly what you're referring to here, but if you're just talking about trying to improve soil structure, condition and nutrient holding capacity, I see nothing wrong with this, but again.....its not an absolute necessity. As Adrian mentioned, lower budget clubs with minimal staff can only WISH they could spray bi-weekly.
3) Preventative fungicide apps: Good idea, of course, but I'll state again, using my specific locale and experience, Bentgrass requires much less preventative maintenance. With Poa greens, I would be on a two week preventative rotation for the following diseases: Fusarium, Pink Snow Mold, Fairy Ring, Waitea Patch, and Anthracnose. With my current Bentgrass greens, I sprayed for Fairy Ring, Pythium (because of extrememly unusual conditions of 100+ temps and massive amounts of smoke that trapped the heat and kept the humidity high, otherwise I wouldn't have worried about it all) and Dollar Spot. This property in 7 years has yet to see even a hint of Fusarium, Pink Snow Mold, or Anthracnose.
4) 2-3 guys syringing greens: If you're properly managing your irrigation system, absolutely unnecessary, unless you have serious soil problems and you can't deep water your greens. I've watered deeply and infrequently, 3 days a week, all summer and have only had to handwater greens twice, during 100+ F heat spells. Any more handwatering than that and you're just asking for disease to pop up, as all you're doing is increasing the humidty and total leaf wetness time in the turf canopy, both of which are huge factors contributing to disease outbreaks.
5) Aerifying the same way: Fine, but really should depend more on your soil than the turf. If you have problems with water penetration, you should probably look at deep tine aerification or drill & fill. If you have excessive thatch, you probably need smaller holes on tighter spacing coupled with vertical mowing. Whatever the case, aerficiation should not be based on grass type alone.
6) Broom, verticut & topdress: Itneresting you wouldn't take a different style towards this when Poa is a clump grass and Bentgrass, like Bermuda, spreads by stolons & rhizomes. Would you maintain Bermuda fairways like Ryegrass fairways in terms of thatch management as well?
7) Mowing at the same heights: Possible, though there are definetely engineered strains of Bentgrass that are DESIGNED to be able to withstand lower mowing heights. Poa's a wild card......while some natural strains may be able to take it and are used to it, I would think a Poa accustomed to growing at 0.120 would not take kindly to 0.090.
8} Rolling 4-5 times a week: Once again, no brainer, no matter what grass you have. I have yet to see or hear anyone say anything bad about using rolling as a regular maintenance practice on any greens, regardless of grass type. And once again, hard to do with a low budget, minimal crew. Just shows that you really view this topic as what works best for you and not objectively as to what grass OVERALL, in the majority of golf courses, is better, from a FACTUAL MAINTENANCE perspective AND a subjective playability one.
And if you are absolutely desperate for hard, factual numbers:
I use 90% less manpower hand syringing bentgrass greens vs poa.
I use 50% less time spraying and 50% less money spent on chemicals with Bentgrass greens vs poa.
My bentgrass roots are currently 60% deeper in the soil profile than poa root depth in a similar soil profile, making them better able to absorb nutrients and water.
I've had 50% less instance of disease outbreak with turf damage as a result with bentgrass vs poa.
I've used 33% less nitrogen and 25% less total greens fertilizer costs with bentgrass vs poa.
I've had 200% more compliments on aesthetic appearance, ball roll, turf health and consistancy with these bentgrass greens than with any Poa greens at a number of other courses. ;D
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Adrian,
You still havent given me any examples where bent out competed poa naturally. Anybody can rattle off regions of the world that have climates suitable for bent.
And yes I do like poa. If I was in a mild, arid climate I would prefer poa. Its a denser grass than bent, noticeably. And it can still synthesize in the absence of sunlight. That doesnt mean that I dont like bent.
If I took a job with 100, 90, 80, 70% bent greens I would do everything to keep poa out and kill off the the 10, 20, 30% poa. Personally, if the percentage gets up to 40, 50, 60% poa, I would probably promote the poa. (if the club is ok with that). Trying to kill off that much poa scares me.
Along with the GCSAA Im also a member of BIGGA. Ive been to your side of the pond several times and I have several friends that work at great clubs over there. I can assure you my management methods are not much different than those in the U.K.. If you are in the business you would understand that those practices are not anything over the top and should at least be the minimum a super should do. If I needed to cut back I would got to a curative fungicide program and roll alot less. Everything else is necessity. If doing the bare minimum is going to break a clubs budget maybe they shouldnt have a golf course then. Or not expect to have healthy, playable greens.
You have to realize that keeping poa out of bentgrass greens can be just as expensive as maintaining poa greens. If you truly knew anything about this business you would see some truth in that. Chemical applications and mechanical removal is needed to get it out and keep it out. The money not used in spraying for anthracnose is going towards the poa eradication program. poa is wildly invasive and keeping it out comes with a cost.
To say "BENT IS THE BEST" across the board is ridculous. I dont think either is "best". This is a big world and to say that bent is "THE BEST" in every situation is not true. Neither bent or poa is "THE BEST" for any situation. Your statements are too general and Im trying to give you opportunities to persuade me with some information that has some substance to it and its just not happening.
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Having just made a move from greens that were predominately bent to greens that are 50 50 bent poa, I have really been amazed at how much more fungicides the poa greens require, and also how much attention I have to pay to fertility.
On my old predominately bent greens I sprayed every two weeks, and added a small amount of Nitrogen (.05 - .07 Lbs/k) and minor nutrients to each tank. I applied potash once a month or so at 1 pound. So in a year I might have a little under a pound of N and 5 to 7 pounds of K.
On the poa greens that I am working with now I am learning that I have to spray fungicides every week, and I need to use higher N rates with each spray. And I am not as aggressive with growth regulators as I was with the bent greens.
I believe that if you go with the lower N rates you can promote the bent, but you can't allow the Poa to get too weak or the anthracnose can take it out. However, what I am going to begin trying now is circling the green with fertilizer using a Scotts spreader every three weeks or so at a light to moderate rate. It seems to me that that's where the anthracnose is most severe - on the edges.
I am not a Poa hater, but I just think that managing for bent is the best stratedgy because bent is hardier and stronger. If under that management scheme there are some strains of Poa that evolve to flourish under that management scheme, then I'm ok with that. Poa is a great putting surface.
I think that mixed poa bent greens are actually some of the best greens that I've played. But there is no doubt that all things being equal, A4 is one hell of a grass.
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JSPayne,
1. Bi-weekly foliar fert applications.
The grass plants on putting green surfaces are completely new grass plants every two weeks because of the rate of growth and the frequency of mowing them. Thats why I spray every two weeks at .1 lb. Nitrogen / 1000. If you can go longer, great. Its no secret that bent requires less Nitrogen annually and I never argued otherwise. Spoon feeding at low rates every two weeks is the most efficient way to feed the grass plant. Theres never a flush of growth and with chelated and complexed fertilizer I know that the grass plant is utilizing all of it efficiently.
2. Bi-weekly soils fert applications.
Im a huge believer in good soils. My soils sprays consist of constantly keeping up with potassium, calcium, manganese, magnesium, hydrogen peroxide, humic acid and seaweed extract. Im dealing with problems like high bicarbonates, salts, pH and anaerobic soils. The house is only as good as its foundation. And the grass is only as good as its soil. If I have these issues you tell me why I shouldnt be taking care of the soils.
3. Preventative Fungicide applications.
I hate say it JS but bent also gets Pink Snow Mold, Fairy ring, Waitae Patch, Yellow Patch etc.. You may not get these in your area but this post isnt just about your bent greens. If preventative is what club expectations calls for then thats what the club gets. And preventative is every 3 to four weeks in this case.
4. 2-3 guys syringing greens.
JS I dont use the sprinkler heads on the greens except for once a week on Sunday nights to leach. Then I also use them once a month to flush the greens with 4 hours of water. I keep greens dry. And I do that by syringing. Syringing does not keep the canopy wet. It keeps it cool. If you dont realize this theres a difference between watering a green and syringing a green. A true "volume" of water never hits the green surface and the nozzle never breaks 90 degrees. The greens are misted and only hot spots are watered as they occur. If I threw up the heads 3 times a week then I would have soggy, soft and puffy greens. This is far more efficient water management.
5. Aerify the same way.
why wouldnt I? If I know my greens are accumulating 20% organic matter annually whether its poa or bent why would I change?
6. Broom verticut and topdress.
It doesnt matter if its poa or bent or its different growth types. If you dont verticut and topdress your greens you WILL have puffiness. My topdressing is based off of diluting the organic matter at the rate it develops over the course of a year. I topdress lightly every other week and sometimes once a week at a lighter rate. This keeps the organic matter diluted and prevents any layering. The topdressing is done immediately after the verticut to give the sand small channels to get worked into the profile. I would also broom and mow the same way. whether its bent or poa im always working for tight, upright growth from the grass plant. Growth types have no relevance whatsoever with these practices. Please tell me whats wrong with this.
7. Mowing at the same heights
Poa CAN be lowered down to .90" after being mowed for decades at .125". Why can I say that? Because Ive done it. When you manage the green well with brooming, verticutting and topdressing you eliminate any chance of puffiness and scalping. When the canopy has all of its macropores filled with sand and the leaves are tight and upright you bet your ass you can lower that height because youve just raised the canopy.
8. Rolling 4-5 times a week
Membership want firm and fast. Thats what theyre getting.
I applaud you for being one of the first guys to actually throw some facts down on the table instead of just throwing out some broad statement. But your whole post is off base. For several reasons....
You could have came across in a positive way to actually show the viewers of this post the facts of the differences between poa and bent management styles. Because what alot of the viewers want with this post is to be educated. And you could have brought some numbers to the table as a comparison, which you did. But, you attacked my cultural practices that are done on poa surfaces and compared them to your bent. Which, duh, I understand thats the big point but youre acting like what you are doing is better and Im off base? Im managing greens that were inherited, took them to the next level and meeting the memberships expectations.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with my program and my philosophies. It is sound agronomics pure and simple. What I do for these greens is what the super at my hometown course does as well. And he only has a third of the budget. Neither of us have never seen ANY anthracnose.
What I mean with "armchair superintendents" are guys that arent even in the business that make broad statements and cant back them up. It was never in reference to other superintendents and I by no means think that Im a better superintendent than the next guy. Im smart enough to know that each club presents its own challenges. I would never get on here and criticize another superintendent for what he is doing at his club when I havent even stepped foot on the property.
Your post sir was the one off base. Ive also worked with pure bentgrass greens and we cultivated and groomed no less than what I do for poa greens. And if i work with bent greens again I still wouldnt decrease cultivation and grooming. I would adjust programs to micro climates and budgets but techniques would stay the same because I know i can push my greens hard and still keep them healthy while producing a product that exceeds the memberships expectations.
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Bradley,
Stress to the grass plant can be a huge promoter for anthracnose. Being aggressive with mowing heights, constant rolling, constant traffic are things that stress and abuse the grass plant. The anthracnose being worse around the edges of the green is a sign. The edges of the green can be the most sensitive sometimes when it comes to stressed grass plants due to traffic and mowing the cleanup pass often.
Do you triplex the greens? If so that cleanup pass could be stressed out from the tires always running over the same spots. The same could be true if you walkmow as well. The machine going over the exact same line is stressful. Ive seen it before and we cut back on mowing the cleanup pass.
When you say circling the green with granular fert do you mean just outside the green or actually on the green?
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JSPayne,
one more thing. I caught your one post earlier before you deleted it. If your trying to compare poa in the mid-atlantic to poa on the west coast, or any other part of the world for that matter, give it up. Just like I couldnt critique a super without having ever been on his course I would never critique a guy on the other side of the country.
Your case in that last post is null because your comparing the mid-atlantic which is the armpit of the country to the most arid part of the country in southern california. YOU NEEED TO COMPARE APPLES TO APPLES!!!! Because it doesnt even compare. You have no case.
I would never recommend a club to promote poa in the transition zone. Of course you have disease pressure with poa there. Of course bent is the better option there. Does that mean its the best option for everywhere else in the world? Not in my book.
There are just as many, if not more success stories with poa in this world as there are with bent. If there wasnt then it would never be accepted as a good stand of grass for greens in the industry. Clubs all over the world would be stripping their greens. But are all clubs doing that?
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Ian may sound a little over the top with his preaching but his practices are sound. I agree with the majority of what he is saying with the exception of putting the snake oil salesman's kids through an ivy league education. (Ian what percentage of the foliar products you are applying are actually entering the plant?) Anyway it doesn't matter what type of grass you are growing if you don't have sound management practices you are never going to have good greens. With that being said I prefer a good poa surface over bentgrass any day.....
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Donnie,
To answer your question about how much of the spray is getting into the plant...
To be completely honest I dont know.
But I do know that Im doing everything I possibly can to ensure as much as possible is getting into the plant.
I use urea based Nitrogen sources because urea is naturally the easiest to be taken in by the plant.
I make sure all fertilizer is chelated or complexed with sugar or carbon so the plant is tricked into sucking it up and digesting it.
I stay away from any cheap, ag grade raw materials that have a higher salt content.
I actually always put in a little penetrant wetting agent. The chemistry is designed to make h2o molecules smaller and change the charges so I figured this would also help in preparing the sprays droplets and make it easier to enter the stomata.
and...
most importantly I spray at very low volumes for a carrier. 40 gallons per acre, and I want to go lower. Hopefully all this sets the application nicely to ensure the droplet size is very small, covers more surface area on the leaf tip and is sweet enough for the plant to take it in. I havent done before and after tissue testing which Ive been meaning to do to get some personal data on it. But I will say it has to be more efficient than going at 80 - 100 gallons of water per acre with its larger droplet sizes that flow down into the crown area.
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http://www.turfgrasstrends.com/turfgrasstrends/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=193849
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Adrian,
You still havent given me any examples where bent out competed poa naturally. Anybody can rattle off regions of the world that have climates suitable for bent.
And yes I do like poa. If I was in a mild, arid climate I would prefer poa. Its a denser grass than bent, noticeably. And it can still synthesize in the absence of sunlight. That doesnt mean that I dont like bent.
If I took a job with 100, 90, 80, 70% bent greens I would do everything to keep poa out and kill off the the 10, 20, 30% poa. Personally, if the percentage gets up to 40, 50, 60% poa, I would probably promote the poa. (if the club is ok with that). Trying to kill off that much poa scares me.
Along with the GCSAA Im also a member of BIGGA. Ive been to your side of the pond several times and I have several friends that work at great clubs over there. I can assure you my management methods are not much different than those in the U.K.. If you are in the business you would understand that those practices are not anything over the top and should at least be the minimum a super should do. If I needed to cut back I would got to a curative fungicide program and roll alot less. Everything else is necessity. If doing the bare minimum is going to break a clubs budget maybe they shouldnt have a golf course then. Or not expect to have healthy, playable greens.
You have to realize that keeping poa out of bentgrass greens can be just as expensive as maintaining poa greens. If you truly knew anything about this business you would see some truth in that. Chemical applications and mechanical removal is needed to get it out and keep it out. The money not used in spraying for anthracnose is going towards the poa eradication program. poa is wildly invasive and keeping it out comes with a cost.
To say "BENT IS THE BEST" across the board is ridculous. I dont think either is "best". This is a big world and to say that bent is "THE BEST" in every situation is not true. Neither bent or poa is "THE BEST" for any situation. Your statements are too general and Im trying to give you opportunities to persuade me with some information that has some substance to it and its just not happening.
Ian, I can assure you that FEW UK GREENKEEPERS will be managing the way you do. You assume to much, why do you assume I am not in the business. It is not ridicuous to say what is best at all, there may be situations where bent grass wont work as well and as we know, poa ingress happens in milder climates and lower budgets. I think you could keep a pure stand of bent in the UK, if you kept off it during the colder days, however that is not practical, but it does show that bent grass can compete and win during our summer months. Southern Europe has a much warmer winter period and probably has 300 out of the 365 days where bent will be a winner over poa.
Here, we can keep them pure for about 3 years here with a major spring weeding out of the poa, but its years 4 onwards where the poa doubles up and at probably just a 5% poa inavasion.. you've lost.
Here in the UK we dont have the range of usuable chemicals and our budgets are tiny, taking you statement futher... 97% of UK courses would close, however Ian I can assure you that many clubs do have health playable greens and by spraying fungicidal treatment only when absolutey needed rather than an 'adhoc' bi-weekly programme we have natural antagonists in the soil that help combat the minor irritations. Now Ian whilst I accept that method may not be suitable in the USA... it is here. Our typical UK product has a mixture of bents, poa's and perhaps fescues on the higher areas, we dont water much as in the main what we get is from the sky and irrigate mainly to supplement in the dry periods. Very rarely do we syringe, in fairness very rarely would temperatures get up to 32 C. The end product is pretty good, not as good as a pure bent sward but the best that can be done given the monies that are given to our greenstaff.
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Along with the GCSAA Im also a member of BIGGA. Ive been to your side of the pond several times and I have several friends that work at great clubs over there. I can assure you my management methods are not much different than those in the U.K.. If you are in the business you would understand that those practices are not anything over the top and should at least be the minimum a super should do. If I needed to cut back I would got to a curative fungicide program and roll alot less. Everything else is necessity. If doing the bare minimum is going to break a clubs budget maybe they shouldnt have a golf course then. Or not expect to have healthy, playable greens.
Ian,
working on this side of the pond (Europe) I am sure does present somewhat of a different challenge in many respects to that that you face. It is obvious that you are very knowledgable about maintaining either a poa or bent sward. I can assure you, if you were to go about here with the attitude you express in the last part of the last quote you would be very hard pressed to find employment here and even more hard pressed to keep any job you got.
What would interest me is what would be you maintenance plan if you were not allowed to use fungicides and no automatic irrigation (no, no full time hand watering either).
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Adrian and Jon,
First let me admit that these posts have not been specifically aimed towards anyone in your part of the world. Yes I have several friends that work at several good clubs and I myself have been there. But I could never lecture at any length on the challenges your region faces and the solutions you have for them. And not once did I try to say anything about your practices and methods.
All I have said to you guys is how can you possibly make a blanket statement that bent is best? Have you even been to the states or anywhere else in the world to know for a fact that is is the best? In my remarks I have said that I would not say bent or poa is best. Because Im wise enough to know that there are thousands of courses and thousands of microclimates in the world where each grass can be prolific.
The title to this thread is "Why the hatred towards Poa Annua?" And my whole stance has been that poa as a grass shouldnt be hated just because superintendents have had some bad experiences with it. And I bet within the supers that have had problems with it, not many had bulletproof programs and something could have been better. Something got overlooked. And thats not any kind of shot towards supers. God knows Ive made mistakes and looked back and said, "you know...I should have done this. Or shouldnt have done that." There is a lot of luck and human error that goes into growing grass. Its the supers job to ensure that everything possible is being done to keep that plant happy and healthy. Just because a super has anthracnose on his poa doesnt automatically put blame on poa. Anthracnose is induced by constant stress on the plant. If the super knows he has a period in the summer where conditions are going to be wet, hot and humid....he needs to back off from the double cuts, constant rolling, topdressing and brushing.
Adrian,
Yes my program is considered preventative, but I really only spray once a month. And thats only because I know I will get Yellow Patch or Waitae Patch a week or so after I flush. Like clockwork.
I also never assumed nor made a statement saying that UK Supers manage greens the same way I do. All I said that in my experience in the UK and with my UK friends, the practice of foliar feeding or spoon feeding the greens was not some strange and over the top practice. It is proven to be the most efficient way to feed turf. And if I were in the UK I would still do it even if I only had a 6 man crew. I would find a way to get it done. And dont challenge me on that cause Im known to never leave the course. Its commonplace for me to be at work till midnight or so doing such things as flushing or spraying greens. Where theres a will theres a way.
And have I criticized your watering practices? I dont think so. You UK guys are the ones criticizing mine. You guys are in a completely different area of the world!!!! Thats much colder for more calendar days for christs sake!!!! I would hope you dont have to syringe greens!!!!! If you did theres something wrong. You get big rainstorms all year round. I think southern california has had like one good rainstorm in the past two years. So dont criticize me for the challenges I face, no rain and water shortages. My methods are efficient, watering the grass minimally. Just enough to keep it going.
Jon,
Like I said earlier. My experiences in the UK and with my UK friends, practices like handwatering, topdressing, verticutting, rolling etc. were never looked upon as over the top.
Do you not verticut? Do you not topdress? How do you fertilize? Do you think rolling is ridiculous? If my program is so crazy then what is your program? Mowing and spraying a fungicide as needed? We all know Old Tom topdressed himself. All I am doing is grooming my greens to maximize ball roll and trueness while at the same time keeping the organic matter accumulation diluted. But I guess Im a bastard for that.
If I were not allowed to use fungicides I would be even more extreme with the nutrition of the plant and be more catious with cultural activities that may instigate disease. After that its up to nature.
And I wish I didnt have to deal with automatic irritation. I will say this though, you dont have to deal with irrigation issues because nature takes care of it for you. She doesnt give me the same favors. Automatic irrigation is a necessity with my job and so is handwatering. If I were in your shoes with the amount of natural rainfall you get I would have less grey hairs.
My last point to both of you is that yes my program or US programs altogether may seem over the top. Thats no secret to anyone on here I dont think. But its like that for a reason and IMO its all because of macro and micr climates and the many different challenges with disease pressure, water issues, the nature of the two different golfing markets and memberships expectations for course conditioning.
As a superintendent if I were thrown into your world I wouldnt do everything the exact same way. My basic principles would remain the same, but my ways of accomplishing them would mimic the budget and staffing and members expectations. A super has to be a chameleon, if he doesnt adapt to new surroundings and create solutions to a new set of challenges, hes in for a very short career.
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Jeez Ian, who rattled your cage ???Ask a simple question and get your head bitten off ::)
Let me start by saying I have never said that I think Bent is Best and have actually being very positive about poa annua in the right situations. If you start shooting people who are not against you then you will soon find most people will be or maybe that your problem but please don’t make it mine!
I agree that poa as a grass shouldnt be hated just because superintendents have had some bad experiences with it. Every grass is a bad experience with the wrong program, climate or plain bad luck.
I have also never discussed in this thread my preferences in maintenance programs so I am not sure what your comments of
‘Like I said earlier. My experiences in the UK and with my UK friends, practices like handwatering, topdressing, verticutting, rolling etc. were never looked upon as over the top’.
‘Do you not verticut? Do you not topdress? How do you fertilize? Do you think rolling is ridiculous? If my program is so crazy then what is your program? Mowing and spraying a fungicide as needed? We all know Old Tom topdressed himself. All I am doing is grooming my greens to maximize ball roll and trueness while at the same time keeping the organic matter accumulation diluted. But I guess Im a bastard for that.’
are all about?
Your thinking is the same as mine on when your not allowed to use fungicides. I too reduce the amount of nutrition to the plant to the absolute minimum. I also look that the soil remains dry and airy through spiking, tining, verticutting and topdressinging as often as the grass will take it. This program I also extend to the surrounds.
I hope you read this post as I have written it and not as an attack on you.
Oh, by the way I never said I was from the UK
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Fair enough Jon and my apologies. I guess I am on the defensive with this thread because I feel like Im standing in an execution line being shot at by guys that cant believe the fact that I like poa and feel my program is crap. I know my program is solid and it would travel well into other top notch operations.
I make a point to not make general statements that may be taken as criticism to some people. I will not lecture on something I know nothing about. Theres not one way of doing things, Im not stupid. But I felt attacked by a couple guys on here that are saying my program would never work at their courses. And I never tried to prove that it would. I maintain an equal stance between poa and bent. There are different situations where each is BEST. To say that "BENT IS BEST" as a blanket statement is misinformed and naive to me.
poa is a great grass for where its suitable. I know that, other superintendents know that, the universities know that and so does the USGA. With the research going into poa it can only get better as time goes on and we acquire more knowledge about it.
...and your not FROM the UK but are you working there now?
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The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......
poa annua, MANAGED CORRECTLY, is the best putting surface.
WHY?
Because it is the densest grass out there.
MEANING...
The ball sits up nice and high creating a great ball roll.
IS IT PRONE TO DISEASE AND NEMATODES
Yes, but all grass is prone to disease. Poa is just more susceptible to anthracnose and nematodes. Does it happen all the time to say never have poa greens? No.
DOES IT PUT OUT SEED?
Yep, and if managed correctly the seeds will never affect anything. If the super doesnt groom the green (verticutting, brushing, topdressing) the seeds will stand up all the time and interfere with ball roll.
"poa cant be mowed low enough" ?!?!?!
ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!???? Please tell me why not. Ive seen poa greens on the east and west coast cut at .90". How much lower do you want it?
IS IT LESS HEAT RESISTANT?
Yes, and only because its directing its carbohydrate reserves at maintaining its seed production instead of transpiration. SOLUTION? SYRINGE IT!!! Whats so hard about syringing a green. Which by the way is not "watering a green". "watering a green" is what makes all of you guys end up with wet soggy greens in the summer. All the poa plant needs is a mist at a high frequency throuhout the days heat. It helps it transpirate and prevents overwatering.
DOES IT ROOT SHALLOWER?
Yep, but only when the super isnt doing everything he needs to be doing to get those roots deep in the fall winter and spring. Then maintain through the summer. The super needs to aerify at the right times of the year. He needs to fine tune his fert program. I cant believe the amount of supers who dont pay attention to soil reports and adjust their fert program to it. I see alot that only like granulars a handful of times throughout the year creating peaks and valleys in the greens growth pattern, not helping the roots. I see alot that just go out with cheap fert that isnt chelated or complexed with anything, the plant doesnt want to eat it. Its like giving a kid a flintstones vitamin. The plant is the same way, if the fert is cheap it has a salt content in it that the plant just closes its mouth when you hold the spoon up to it. Supers need to not only think about NPK but also Auxins, Gibberelins and Cytokynins. And then add them to their programs. These occur naturally in the plant and are the communicators between the roots, the crown and the foliage. Theyre vital and supers rarely have them on their radar.
THE SUPER HAS TO BE ON THE BALL
If hes not then poa is the wrong grass for your club. There are a ton of clubs all over the country that have poa greens and are in extreme enviornments. And they are succesful.
WHAT PERCENTAGE OF NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE PLAYED ON POA?
I would have to say almost 100%. Just look at the past ten years. The open has been played at this countries best clubs. And what are their greens? poa.
NATURAL SELECTION
I would say that the most of us are golf purists. And if so why is poa being looked at so badly? If a bent green gets naturally taken over by poa then switch the management practices over to poa!! It naturally wants to be there!!! Embrace it. Its a great putting surface!!! But with that comes a tight program enforced by the super. If your super isnt good enough then switching over to the new bermudas or contiunually regrassing with bent is whats best for your club.
THE OAKMONTS, WINGED FOOTS, SHINNECOCKS, MERIONS, RIVIERAS and PEBBLE BEACHS "GET IT".
They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget.
Ian- Read your first post. YOU CLAIMED POA TO BE BEST. Line up 100 Super's from anywhere in the world and ask them "do you want pure bent grass or pure poa" I think we all know the answer. The reality is ofcourse different and we have to learn to live with it. I have been considering ripping our greens up and resurfacing them now they are 50-50 poa/bent, the main reason is when they were pure bent they were so much better than they are now, but equally I accept if we embrace the poa and make that the dominant grass then the greens would improve. We will soon have 36 holes, I reckon I could resurface 1 green in 1 day, by stripping the turf, rotavating to say 100mm then consolidatin, rake then seed. By May 1st I reckon I could be back on those greens and they would be better. I am mixed on the idea and I brought this subject up once before but the general feeling was dont do it. I can remember a GCSAA forum back in the 80s and some chap got up and started off by saying "Annual meadow grass, has had a lot of bad press and if someone invented a grass that grows anywhere, reseeds itself, you can chop it down to 0.125 inch etc etc.... with a different name we would all be ordering a truck load" As long as new courses still seed with bent mixtures as apposed to sowing with poa from the start (and i know it has been done) I'll take bent in front of Poa.
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Is Poa the best grass for putting on?
The question is moot because there are so many variables.
While the newer strains of bentgrass have density that compares favorably to the best strains of poa anywhere, it really comes down to each individual club. If a club has a history of managing Poa well over a long period of time, there might be Poa on those greens that is so good that it can't be improved upon with newer grasses. And while those older strains of Poa might require additional care, it is worth the extra effort, or not worth the risk of tampering with.
The newer strains of bent require some extra care too. What they especially require is well drained soil, and on some of the older greens out there there are shade and soil issues that might make Poa the best grass for those greens.
I don't think there is any one size fits all "best" variety for every green in the world, or for that matter, every green in one city.
I once asked an architect what he thought was the best green to build, a USGA green or a California green, and I liked his answer. He stated that the best green to build is the one that the superintendent recommends, because he's the guy who has to make it work. Some of this issue really boils down to what the superintendent is most comfortable working with. I personally am more comfortable with a 50 50 blend of grass on old push-up greens. I am more comfortable with that than I am on a mono-stand of turf on newer USGA greens. But I wouldn't argue that what I am most comfortable with is the best.
I like the variation of texture in the older greens. I think they are more interesting to putt on. And I like the challenge of keeping Poa that is cut, below an 1/8th, alive on a 98 degree day. There aren't too many people who can do that. And I don't mean to sound like I am bragging, it's just that after so many years of doing it, it becomes a part of who you are. Last week we double verticut and topdressed in 95 degrees, to get ready for our member member. Now that was exhilarating. And when you come through a tough period with no scars on your Poa, that's a great feeling of accomplishment.
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Bradley,
Stress to the grass plant can be a huge promoter for anthracnose. Being aggressive with mowing heights, constant rolling, constant traffic are things that stress and abuse the grass plant. The anthracnose being worse around the edges of the green is a sign. The edges of the green can be the most sensitive sometimes when it comes to stressed grass plants due to traffic and mowing the cleanup pass often.
Do you triplex the greens? If so that cleanup pass could be stressed out from the tires always running over the same spots. The same could be true if you walkmow as well. The machine going over the exact same line is stressful. Ive seen it before and we cut back on mowing the cleanup pass.
When you say circling the green with granular fert do you mean just outside the green or actually on the green?
Ian,
There was a lot of rolling done here historically with a gang drawn style concrete roller, and where the rollers pivoted and turned on the edges we have some compaction. So yes, that is where we have the most stress, and the most anthracnose pressure. I have been advised to increase my N levels just for that reason, but I would like to keep the N levels low overall because in my experience I feel there is a connection between having tough turf and low N levels.
So rather than increase my feeding of the entire green for the benefit of strengthening the clean-up pass against anthracnose, I'm thinking about just fertilizing the cleanup pass and the collar with a scotts spreader at a moderate rate of say.25 lb of N every three weeks or so would be the best solution. I can also add a little more nutrients to the banks and the approaches while I am making this application too.
What do you think?
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Ian, apology accepted :)
If people criticise your defence of Poa annua then remind them that it does happen to be the most successful grass type on the planet (as far as I am aware) and therefor very adaptable. Despite what Tom Doak states it is capable of becoming a biannual and my experience is that it mainly produces seed heads when under stress (so don't stress it). Also, to upset the Bent group (is that politically correct ??? ;D) I would state that many talking about bent state they mean Agrostis Stolonifera when they actually mean Agrostis palustris a totally man made product unlike Poa annua which is mother nature pure (its a matter of opinion which is more able to design something to perform the best man or mother nature but I know which one I am backing).
I am however not from the 100% Poa group as I believe that diversity in the sward is the best way to stop desease from making too many problems. My greenkeeping is based on sound tried and tested methods but I do not rely very heavily on lab reports but rather my intuition and feel. This is not everybodies thing but it works for me and in over 24 years in the industry I have never had cause to spray a fungicide so I must be getting something right as well as been one lucky son of .... ;D
At the moment I am in Switzerland where I have worked on courses ranging from high alpine to one based in a semi arrid climate. I have also worked in Finnland, Norway and the UK.
As for my preference I go very much in the direction of fescue but like it mixed with other grasses. I would imangine that the problem most courses in the US have with fescue is that it probably doesn't handle humidity very well though till now no one has said that to me directly. It will handle heat and drought very well if looked after properly.
JS
you have been surprised why no one has challenged your opinions on Bent. Well as a secondary grass it probably not bad ;D
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It seems this thread has got a little flamed up and out of hand and I think Adrian is right to bring it back to Ian's original post. Let's clear a few things up again:
Ian, I apologize if you took my posts to be any criticism of your work or programs. Completely not my intention. My intention was two-fold:
(1) You say anyone that says the "BENT IS BEST" is misinformed and naiive, saying that one particular grass cannot be best due to the many climates and global situations even though you do actually claim, in your orginal post, that Poa is the best putting surface (when managed correctly of course). Seems hypocritical......
(2) You started getting worked up by "armchair superintendents" or others who aren't....I guess, seasoned.....supers like yourself that like to throw in their two cents on this board. My long post was not to criticize your programs but to argue that non-armchair supers would not do the same exact thing, the same exact way, with the same exact frequency with complete disregard to the type of grass they're growing. As you again countered when discussing UK courses, with different budgets, expectations (and I would hope with different grass types with different needs) you SHOULD do things differently. Same basics, yes, but maybe not the same way with the same frequency. THAT'S the part of your claim I was arguing against. If you walked in the door for this job and my GM asked you, "I see you've worked mainly with Poa greens.....how would you manage these greens differently being predominantly Bentgrass?" and you said "Nothing....I would manage them the same," your resume would go in the round file.
In what I hope to be somewhat of a conclusive statement, and getting back toward the orginal question: Why the hatred towards Poa annua? I simply state two things for the hatred:
(1) Agreeing with Adrian, if you asked 100 supers whether they'd prefer brand new 100% bent vs. 100% poa greens, the overwhelming majority would choose Bent. Why?
(2) For all the reasons you describe as being necessary to justify your clause of "MANAGED CORRECTLY" in order to be the best putting surface. There is nothing wrong, per say, with Poa as a putting surface, as we've concluded, there are EXCELLENT greens with mostly Poa. The hatred stems from the fact that MORE intensive maintenance, chemicals, costs, fretting, handwatering, late nights and long days are required to maintain Poa to this high standard of being dubbed an "excellent green" of the likes of Oakmont, where bentgrass, as a comparable putting surface, still requiring NORMAL, BASIC greens maintenance practices, factually requires much LESS inputs and time, as I numerically pointed out, in the way of irrigation, labor attention, nutrients and fungicides.
That is merely my case.....Bent may not be "best," and Poa may not be "worst," but I firmly take my stance that (for the third time, and you can quote me on it), from a maintenance and subjective playability (meaning my own personal taste) standpoint, Bentgrass greens are better than Poa greens.
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One last shameless question, that might help definitively clear all this up:
Ian,
Provided the location and budget was equally ideal for growing and maintaining bent or poa, if you were presented with a newly constructed course to maintain and had complete say over what grass type was planted for your greens, which would you choose?
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One last shameless question, that might help definitively clear all this up:
Ian,
Provided the location and budget was equally ideal for growing and maintaining bent or poa, if you were presented with a newly constructed course to maintain and had complete say over what grass type was planted for your greens, which would you choose?
J,
Let me answer that question. I would go with the A series bent. And then I would fight Poa like the plague.
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Hey guys,
Again... thanks for all the info. I never thought I would get this many responses to this thread but it has been great. After reading you discussion I feel like I could grow my own putting green (just joking). After hearing about all these different types of diseases I was wondering if any superintendents out there have any photos of what the grass looks like when compromised by these different diseases. Let me know. Thanks.
Robert
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JS,
you are also guilty of what you acuse Ian of (before you start I am too). You say he is not consistant in his approach but first of all you get worked up about choosing the wrong man ;D and then disagree with someone who has exactly his approach in the case you quoted. I guess that goes to show how many different point of views and approaches are valid if you look at them the right way.
You also ask what type of grass would you chose. What type of Poa annua strains are available on the market. I haven't seen any but maybe in the US you have them, otherwise it is a bit of a loaded question wouldn't you say?
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Jon,
Not sure I completely understand your anology, but I'll be the first to admit my posts can sometimes send mixed messages. I try to reread them twice before I post, but some sort of connotation always seems to sneak through! ;)
As for Poa strains, someone posted a link earlier to research being done in this field, though in all honesty I've never seen or heard of Poa being seeded on new greens. Could be my naiive super experience. ;D But what I have seen is Poa plugged (using plug cores from an aerated green that has a good stand of Poa) and overseeded with bent to create the common variety mix of Poa/bent found in most greens.
I would hope it's not a loaded question, just a simple one. I don't intend to argue alot about it, I'm just curious how Ian would respond as I just feel that most supers would answer as Bradley did.
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Tried to post photos and failed.
Tried to delete post entirely and failed.
Left sad debris instead.
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haha ....thanks for the effort!!
to post photos you need to join a site like photobucket.com, upload them to the site, and then you can copy and paste the IMG code to your post and the photos should work.
Robert
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To all,
I think this happens alot on here. We all start at the same place, then go completely different directions, and come back to where we started. Because underneath everything, we really dont disagree THAT much.
Yes, in my initial staement I did say poa is the best. But that came with a stipulation that "if it was managed correctly.". That stipulation takes it from a blanket / general statement to a more specific one. "Managed correctly" could have different meanings to different people based upon their own experiences. It also has to take into consideration different scenarios in different parts of the world.
"Managed Correctly"....
In my world managing poa correctly one must first understand that bent/poa and even poa alone can create a bumpy surface. If thats understood then I think we would all agree that there are a couple things needed to prevent a bumpy surface....
....grooming and plant growth regulators. And in my world, those are not hard things to accomplish. The grooming removes puffiness and the plant growth regulator brings all plant species down to the same rate of topical growth. In fact, I would be doing these regardless of a bumpy surface because they also have secondary benefits. The grooming removes exess tissue in the canopy, stands grass blades upright and promotes tillering. The plant growth regulator suppresses topical growth and translocates that energy from topical growth to root development. Home run if ask me. I track plant growth by having the greens mowers weigh grass clippings and tracking the weights for a clipping yield.
Along with the plant growth regulators come the not so frequent seed suppresion chemicals to keep seed production tame. And the existing grooming program is already chopping off any existing seeds.
Next would be nutrition. I can get away with putting down .1 to .12 lbs of N every other week. That in itself adds up to about 3 lbs annually in addition to extra N inputs during aerifications which average about 1 lb each time. Annual N inputs are at least 5 lbs but actually end up being around 6, maybe 7 lbs in a year. But unlikely. Every other week a foliar application and the oppesite weeks the soils applications which contain no N and are aimed at soils oxygen, flocculation, salt management, water infiltration and nutrient deficiency maintenance.
Its my belief that when the grass is being fed correctly and synthesizing like a Ferrari, you have a healthy grass plant. A healthy grass plant that is less susceptible to disease just like the human body.
So with disease, I spray about once a month which I dont think is so uncommon. If you can go 2 or 3 months without spraying god bless you, youre lucky.
All of this with sound water management and paying attention to the greens playability is "managed correctly", to me. Of course this isnt a template for everybody but I think that the frame of it is. Of course rates of fert and frequency of fungicides are always changing to adapt to different situations. Or even the frequency of grooming is decreased because of high disease pressure or even weather. But this is where I think the essence of being a superintendent lies, embracing the fact that its an art and a science. Learning how to be in touch with nature and being able to adapt to it always changing on you while keeping that picture of the final product in the back of your head and always working toward it.
Would I use this same frame of a program with Bent greens? Yes
Would I use the same rates of fert, fungicide or water? No, those are the variables.
Would I groom Bent the same way? Yes. That is a constant to me. Verticutting, Grooming, Brushing, Topdressing and Rolling.
Let me stop here and Ill be back to address peoples specific questions they asked me in a bit. The old lady is not really happy wih excess GCA time and less old lady time. Dinners ready.......
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Ian,
6-7 lbs. N/M per year is a lot.
I'm doing 2-2.5 on bent/Poa open all year long.
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Ian you talk about 'managed correctly'. Its seems very expensive and I have to say dangerous, you are forcing that plant to grow at an excessive rate. Your expecting cell growth and plant division about four times faster that what we would look for this side of the pond. I am a bit dim on experience with growth regulators and I will bow to your better knowledge of there usuage, but forcing that plant will cause waste material, ie thatch at an alarming rate, you would need to pretty much be diluting your green with straight sand top dressing weekly, again very expensive. This may be a way forward with big budget courses but you are not going to be able to do this if your green fee is sub $75. I think managing bent and spending your money and resources on hand weeding and plugging would be cheaper.....I was going to say better but it might provoke more argueing.
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Adrian,
Theres your problem right there. You dont use plant growth regulators religeously. If you have bent / poa greens no wonder you prefer pure bent. I couldnt imagine how my greens would ever putt smooth without using Primo. I use one link pack a year. Or 20 oz. every other week. Hows that expensive? And for the positive effects it has on controlling topical growth, evening out all the different species growth rates and pushing root growth....Id say its worth every penny. In fact Id even say its a bargain.
Again Adrian, heres where you go in the wrong direction. You throw out comments like " very expensive" and "very dangerous" and "excessive rate" and "four times faster".....
....Youve never stepped foot on my property, youve never even seen the greens, you have no idea what I use and what I pay as far as fertilizer.
I would never make those remarks about your greens or anything concerning your operation because youre in a different freakin' country!! With completely different circumstances!! You still dont get that just because mine is different, it doesnt make it wrong. And Im starting to think you never will.
Putting down .1 lb of N every other week along with .125 oz / 1000 of primo is not excessive, its not expensive, its not dangerous. Its standard protocol for spoon feeding. The leaf blades are nice and thin, not bloated with excessive Nitrogen. And the roots are great for being the end of the summer. The putting surface is firm, fast, dense, disease free with nothing but upright growth.
Heres another one Adrian, "but forcing that plant will cause waste material, ie thatch at an alarming rate". Really? What rate is my organic matter accumulating Adrian? And what calculation did you make to come to the conclusion that my cell growth and plant division is "four times faster"? Thats awesome you can make that calculation in the UK about a southern california golf course youve never been on.
"waste material"....I know my greens are accumulating organic material at around 20% annually.
I topdress VERY lightly every other week.
I aerify twice a year with 3/8" tines @ 2" spacing.
I Graden verticut one direction twice a year.
I also aerify once a month with 1/4" tines at 2" spacing using the 10 tine holding blocks with four blocks equalling 40 tines.
Adrian please at least ask for some details from me before you make accusations. Im doing exactly what my greens require and the product is meeting the memberships expectations within our budget.
I strive everyday to make sure the greens are at a level that if the USGA wanted to show up any random day with an Open the greens are already where they need to be.
The point I made about poa being the best WHEN MAINTAINED CORRECTLY, is based off of poa being the densest grass out there. And if its taken care of that density gives the ball its truest, smoothest roll. Im on the greens everyday putting around after the morning work. If I see that ball even bounce slightly across the green I get pissed off. I maintain them as smooth as a babies ass and if presented with a job that had a lower budget I would still accomplish that.
If you have bent / poa greens and dont use Primo nor do you groom but every so often. Im not so sure I would even want to putt on them for 75$ a round. Especially if your hand weeding and plugging all the greens all the time. Having numerous plugs and spots where its obvious poa was plucked out is not a level of standard I want to have for my greens.
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Steve,
My growing season is 365 days a year.
This is out of Vargas and Turgeons Poa Annua book.
http://books.google.com/books?id=PtnRMlhbbaoC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=annual+nitrogen+requirement+for+poa+annua&source=web&ots=PqkYcw9rAN&sig=CEFLamuwHEZaT1G655ntgAMlE-s&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
Plus if anybody has any questions or misbeliefs about poa this is the complete book.
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Steve,
My growing season is 365 days a year.
This is out of Vargas and Turgeons Poa Annua book.
http://books.google.com/books?id=PtnRMlhbbaoC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=annual+nitrogen+requirement+for+poa+annua&source=web&ots=PqkYcw9rAN&sig=CEFLamuwHEZaT1G655ntgAMlE-s&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
Plus if anybody has any questions or misbeliefs about poa this is the complete book.
There is no final word in turf. Nobody knows everything.
I have met Dr. Turgeon, and he will be the first to tell you he is still learning and will never stop doing so.
I find his recommendations for nitrogen on Poa greens to be excessive for my present situation. In my opinion, there is never a need to put a pound of N down on such a green all at once. If I did, it would cause problems with green speed and Fusarium.
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The nitrogen needs are so dependent on situational factors rendering comparison and generalizations useless. Poa is fine if the climate is conducive! Otherwise its a scourge.
Cheers,
Steve
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Ian... when I was looking costs I was relating to the operational time. How many staff do you have? In the UK many only have 4 and 6 would be a nice number. I do want to learn more about growth regulators, they have only recently gone legal over here.
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haha ....thanks for the effort!!
to post photos you need to join a site like photobucket.com, upload them to the site, and then you can copy and paste the IMG code to your post and the photos should work.
Robert
Robert, thank you so much for showing me the light. Here are photos of Fusarium from my golf course in September, 2006.. Several greens were hit hard. You can't let your guard down for a minute.
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq258/Sokula/17Rgreen.jpg)
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq258/Sokula/Fusariumpatch17R27oct06.jpg)
The tape measure is in centimeters. You can see the white mycelium, the active fungus growth in the close up photos of the patches. It can't be discerned from the photos, but the Fusarium affects the Poa and Poa only.
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haha ....thanks for the effort!!
to post photos you need to join a site like photobucket.com, upload them to the site, and then you can copy and paste the IMG code to your post and the photos should work.
Robert
Robert, thank you so much for showing me the light. Here are photos of Fusarium from my golf course in September, 2006.. Several greens were hit hard. You can't let your guard down for a minute.
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq258/Sokula/17Rgreen.jpg)
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq258/Sokula/Fusariumpatch17R27oct06.jpg)
The tape measure is in centimeters. You can see the white mycelium, the active fungus growth in the close up photos of the patches. It can't be discerned from the photos, but the Fusarium affects the Poa and Poa only.
I feel your pain brother. Yikes. You must be located in the north?
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Steve,
Are the spots infected with fusarium representative to the percentage of poa you have?
If not, what percentage do you have?
If the fusarium spots are representative to your percentage of poa why are you keeping it around?
If your fertility program prevents fusarium then what happened here?
If the spots of fusarium are representative of your percentage of poa would you consider that a bent / poa green?
My initial thoughts without knowing the answers are if the spots represent the general percentage of poa I wouldnt consider that a bent / poa green. I would call that a bent green that is being managed as bent that is being infested with poa. And if you are managing your greens as bent, as your fertility rates show, how can you conclude that only high rates of N will instigate fusarium. Because you obviously got fusaium with low rates as well. And if this is the result of high N why were you putting a high rate of N with your low N program?
With the dew on the green its a little harder to see any segragation between the poa and the bent. Thats why Im asking if the infected spots represent (plus or minus) the poa population. And if you were to say that you have mostly poa then I would say this is a case that shows how consistent a poa green can look aesthetically. But my intuition is telling me what we are seeing is mostly bent with a peppering of poa.
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Steve,
Thanks for the photos... that stuff looks pretty nasty. How did the greens recover??
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To get back to Bill and JSPaynes questions....
Bill Brightly,
I dont know what to think about interseeding and overseeding bent into poa. All I can say is that from my experience on the east west coast it wasnt overly successful. Not successful enough to say that the bent was even coming close to outcompeting the poa. Yes, after doing it you see little bent seedlings coming up here and there but it wasnt in an abundance. My only other opinion on it would be that if you are ina time where disease pressure is very high and turf quality is struggling due to something like anthracnose, I would be slinging the bent like crazy.
But no, I dont think supers or the USGA men that recommend it are off base. I think you just have to realistic in the expectations of it and realize its pretty much a bandaid and that you arent likely to end up with a bent green anytime soon.
(where Im coming from on this is that the greens in question would be mostly poa)
JSPayne,
If I had my choice between Bent or Poa?
If in an arid and cool climate I would love to have Poa.
If I was in New Jersey, the transition zone or anything south down to Florida I would want Bent.
If I was in Southern Florida, Southern Texas or Mexico I would want Bermuda.
I would maintain the same grooming principles and application styles for all three and adjust rate and frequency of water, fert and fungicide to what climate calls for.
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Ian,
why do think that the density of grass gives a better putting surface. I disagree as it also requires you to have a very low height of cut on the greens. This is fine in areas where you can cut low all of the year but where you can't then you are in for untrue greens in the winter time.
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Steve,
Are the spots infected with fusarium representative to the percentage of poa you have?
If not, what percentage do you have?
If the fusarium spots are representative to your percentage of poa why are you keeping it around?
If your fertility program prevents fusarium then what happened here?
If the spots of fusarium are representative of your percentage of poa would you consider that a bent / poa green?
My initial thoughts without knowing the answers are if the spots represent the general percentage of poa I wouldnt consider that a bent / poa green. I would call that a bent green that is being managed as bent that is being infested with poa. And if you are managing your greens as bent, as your fertility rates show, how can you conclude that only high rates of N will instigate fusarium. Because you obviously got fusaium with low rates as well. And if this is the result of high N why were you putting a high rate of N with your low N program?
With the dew on the green its a little harder to see any segragation between the poa and the bent. Thats why Im asking if the infected spots represent (plus or minus) the poa population. And if you were to say that you have mostly poa then I would say this is a case that shows how consistent a poa green can look aesthetically. But my intuition is telling me what we are seeing is mostly bent with a peppering of poa.
Well, Ian, you're intuition is wrong.
The Fusarium affected only a small percentage of the Poa population, the green is 50%. Regular Primo applications also mask the Poa.
I never said my fertility program prevents Fusarium. I said if I put more nitrogen I would have a problem.
Nitrogen alone doesn't cause or prevent Fusarium, but it is an important contributing factor. That green had less than 2 lbs. N on it up to that date in the year, most of it spoon-fed, with the last granular application two months previous - Sustain 1/2 lb. N
At the time, I was on a preventative fungicide program as well. That green had been treated with both iprodione and fenarimol at full rates in the two weeks leading up to the outbreak.
I posted the photo to make the point that Poa is definitely susceptible to Fusarium.
And Bradley, yes, we're just outside of Paris.
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Steve, in the old days we never fed past the last day of August in the UK, basically for the reasons you just said, Nitrogen increases the chance of Fusarium....we let them go lean into the winter, then an agronomist came along and said I should apply a slow release fertiliser at half rate over the winter and OMG we had Fusarium everywhere. I had gone 3 years without an application before. Iron helps keep the Fusarium away a bit, I think the worst thing is the foggy, dewey conditions that can settle in during damp autumn days.
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Jon,
If you are a superintendent and you dont understand or dont agree with the fact that poa annua always has a higher shoot density than bentgrass and how that higher shoot density sits the ball up higher giving the ball a truer rule, Im afraid we are in completely different leagues. Just because poa annua is denser does not mean it cannot be mowed at a higher cutting height. In season I have poa down to .90" and raise it to .125" in the winter. I know these arent in metric but just how high could you possibly want your greens? .150"....175"......200" !!!!????
And again, you dont use plant growth regulators. I dont know how you could ever maintain poa annua greens without Primo and still come away with a great and true rolling green. And if you have to raise the height so high in the winter to where it looks like a cornfield, (not sure why you would), you need Primo even more.
Look at Steves green, hes uses a plant growth regulator. And honestly, I know a picture can be decieving, but that green looks sooo consistent between the bent and poa. And Steve said he even has a 50 / 50 mix. Steves greens are a testament to how consistent a bent / poa green can be if managed correctly. Consistency in aestehetics and ball roll.
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Steve,
I dont think there is any debate on poa getting disease. It does. But so does bent. each get certain diseases more than the other in different regions and climates.
I want to make it clear to anyone following this thread that one size does not fit all. Steve and Jon are in Europe and theyre preaching Nitrogen and its effects with fusarium in poa greens.
Here in Southern California Ive never seen fusarium once. Never at Riviera and never at LACC. And both operations spoon feed the greens aiming at .10 lbs / 1000 of nitrogen on a biweekly basis. Nor has it come up as a serious issue with supers in the entire region.
Steve if we were to generalize and come to a semi-conclusion that if you have a 50 / 50 bent-poa mix and your fert program was down at 2 lbs. N per year and you still end up with that much fusarium.......I wouldnt conclude that it is only because of Nitrogen that causes and promotes fusarium. That amount of disease is unacceptable to me personally and for the clientele I deal with more importantly.
The last time I saw that much disease on a green was at my first job as an assistant super at a nicklaus course in northeast pennsylvania. We had 7 year old greens at the time, totally bentgrass. He also had the fertility down to 2 lbs a year. We constantly had a problem with dollar spot no matter what we sprayed. At one point we were down to a 10 day fungicide spray.....
.....funny thing is that the only thing that saved us was when we bumped up the Nitrogen input.
Also, the picture shows some spreader tracks in the dew. You obviously didnt mow as to try and not spread the mycellium even more and what did you spread on the greens when you woke up to that?
And being at 50 / 50 bent-poa but managing for bent, what are you doing to promote the bent? And is it working?
With promoting bent, are you on any program to kill off the poa chemically? And at what cost? And at what success rate? Is it worth it?
If you are not on any program to eradicate poa, are you not promoting it?
When you started at this course were the greens new 100% bent? If not what was the percentage of poa in the greens?
Im not saying Nitrogen is not a contributing factor to fusarium in your part of the world. How could I? But I do know from my experiences and my colleagues experiences that fusarium hasnt conclusively been attributed to high Nitrogen in my part of the world.
I think Torrey is also a testament to poa greens. The USGA recommended poa greens to a public city owned course for the US Open....
I mowed greens that whole week and was with the USGA officials as they are doing their daily monitering of green speeds and firmness data. The poa conversion from bent was great. And the greens were great. All the poa greens at any US Open have been great. Thats why you see US Open greens as poa. Thats no coincedence. And as far as Torrey, after the US Open is long and gone its still a city course that still has to live with poa greens. If poa was such a monster I dont think a city course on a city budget would want that burden, if it were a burden. Playability-wise and finacially.
I do think we will see our first US Open with bent greens at Olympic though.
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I heard this was a really good thread.
I'm sorry to say I haven't yet read it except for the first post and just a few of the ones just after it. But I am going to read the whole thread tomorrow.
But one of the questions on the first post by Mr. Warren was---if Oakmont's greens are straight poa and they have the reputation for some of the best greens in the world, do they know something that the rest of the world of golf and agronomy doesn't know?
I wish the answer to that question was a simple one but it definitely isn't.
Oakmont does have one of the best supers in the business in John Zimmers but the fact is basically Pittsburgh really does have generally pretty cool nights in the summer and Oakmont certainly does have a very large maintenance budget and if any course anywhere is wanting to consider straight poa greens even remotely like Oakmont's they at least better have those 2-3 things that Oakmont has, FOR STARTERS!!! ;)
I was out there, I think in late June with the Exec. Director of GAP and the PA GOLF Association (one guy) for a meeting with Oakmont for this USGA Architecture Archive, and since we both get up real early anyway we went out to the course around 6:30 am with a putter and some balls as the crew was cutting and rolling. We talked to them and putted and just looked at a few of those greens and I must say I've almost never seen anything like them. They really were as good as it can possibly get, anywhere, and at any time!
But that's Oakmont! If any club or course anywhere is even considering trying to replicate what they have and do, even a little bit, I suggest that club and course COMPLETELY familiarize themselves with Oakmont, what they do and where they are! ;)
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TEPaul,
Thanks for the response regarding the greens at Oakmont. I have always been curious because it always seems that our national championship (known for lightning fast greens) is always played on courses with Poa Annua. Another question about Oakmont. Do you have any idea what there maintenance budget actually is?? What does an extremely high budget really give you?? I would assume it is the extra labor that makes the largest difference but I really have no idea. What do they do with there extra $$$ that other well known courses don't do?? Thanks.
Robert
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Robert:
I don't really know exactly what Oakmont's annual Operating or Capital budgets are although I do have a pretty good ballpark idea (and if I did know exactly I'm sure you realize I would both never say it on here and also why I'd never say it on here) but I don't think it's telling any secrets out of school to tell you it's huge as it goes in golf maintenance.
The crews on these big famous "championship" courses and famous old-line courses like PV are about 3-4 times the size, at least, of the mean club in America and that costs. Not just that but the two asst supers we met with out there that day on the course could probably do a better job on any golf course in America than about 89% of the supers out there right now. The only amelerioration to that is most of these young guys like those two are trained in big budget operations and they know how to spend it right generally.
There is one really good super in my area who has a huge budget who once told me he could basically deliver the same product even if he had to give back about $700,000 of his operating budget.
Maybe he could do that but I think even he knows that's an exaggeration and at least he had the good sense to add-----but would anyone really expect me to give it back. ;)
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TEPaul,
Yea, I wasn't really thinking when I asked for an actual number regarding their operating budget and would never expect you to put those number out for us to see. All I was really interested in is how much larger than the normal course, which I got from your answer. I was very interested in the comment that the super you know made. I have always wondered at what point the budget just becomes unnecessary. Eventually you have all the pesticides, fertilizers, equipment, and man power a course could ever need. It seems that these top "championship" courses have found this equilibrium. Thanks for the response.
Robert
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Jon,
If you are a superintendent and you dont understand or dont agree with the fact that poa annua always has a higher shoot density than bentgrass and how that higher shoot density sits the ball up higher giving the ball a truer rule, Im afraid we are in completely different leagues.
Ian, I have never said as far as I remember that Poa is not the density of bentgrass or even denser. If you can find it here I will apologies but otherwise it would be nice if you would stop putting words into my mouth.
It is logical to me that the denser and more upright the growth habit of a grass combined with a thicker grassleaf will cause more resistance to the roll of the ball as it gets longer i.e. Bobbling and that a higher HOC gives a less smooth surface than a lower HOC within certain limits
Jon,
And again, you dont use plant growth regulators. I dont know how you could ever maintain poa annua greens without Primo and still come away with a great and true rolling green.
And here is the crux of the problem Ian. NO I AM NOT ALLOWED TO USE A PLANT GROWTH REGULATOR ::), so I ask you again, how would you manage poa without chemicals? I was hoping that with your obvious experience that I might learn a thing or two ;)
Steve,
I dont think there is any debate on poa getting disease. It does. But so does bent. each get certain diseases more than the other in different regions and climates.
I want to make it clear to anyone following this thread that one size does not fit all. Steve and Jon are in Europe and theyre preaching Nitrogen and its effects with fusarium in poa greens.
Ian, I have never preached about Nitrogen or its effects with fusarium or have I ???
Im not saying Nitrogen is not a contributing factor to fusarium in your part of the world. How could I? But I do know from my experiences and my colleagues experiences that fusarium hasnt conclusively been attributed to high Nitrogen in my part of the world.
Ian, maybe that is because first (and this is just a guess because I have no working knowledge of your climate) the climate doesn't help fusarium develope and secondly if you are spoon feeding the greens then with your ability in greenkeeping there would never be to much N available.
I am not in disagreement with your position that Poa Annua can make a great putting surface, I just would not want to create a pure stand of any grass in my putting green sward
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TEPaul,
Oakmonts greens arent a crazy never before seen poa. It is actually a simple asnwer. Theyre just a perennial type poa that doesnt come to seed. The plant isnt using its energy up to support seed and seed production. Since its inception Oakmont has embraced and managed its poa greens never trying to regrass with the newest bents out there. Because of the that, its species of poa have done well adapting to its enviornment. Theyve allowed natural selection to occur and because of that the strongest have survived. Leaving them with a great stand of poa.
Oakmonts cultural practices arent over the top and top secret either. John IS one the best supers in the country having come up in the Latshaw family tree. John, as well as hundreds of other superintendents across the country, understand what the plant needs to make it as healthy as possible just so he can turn around and take it to the edge of death. And why does he do it? Playability. A super could never take his greens to the edge without knowing exactly what it needs to make it strong and healthy.
Oakmonts greens success start with plant nutrition. Im familiar with the program they are on and its nothing fancy that only "wealthy" operations can afford. Plant nutrition is so similar to human nutrition. Without a good diet immune systems are low, energy is low and you wouldnt be able to run the Boston Marathon. John Zimmers has those greens on a sound, efficient diet. And at the US Open last year. His greens ran the Boston Marathon twice that week. And still came back around to tell about it.
All of the methods and and cultural practices that I have been getting criticized for on this thread are the same things valued at Oakmont.
Also the comment you made about the super that would give back half his budget and still produce the same product.....
....yes he is being sarcastic. But at the same time hes also serious. Some may think that supers with big budgets have it so easy and can do anything they want. Which may be true to a point. But the point that he was probably making is that because he understands plant physiology, what it takes to manicure a green so its healthy and rolls true. He can take those same core principals and apply them to a course with half his budget, and still pull it off.
I love Oakmont because its a players course. All about the playability. And the first step to great playability is understanding the stress put on the plant to achieve it and developing a program to keep it healthy and strong.
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Jon,
Im not trying to put words in your mouth but it seems as soon as I make a statement thats in favor of poa you come right back in disagreement. I also may be forgeting who I am making statements to on here. I think Im confusing myself between you and Adrian so if any comments that dont make sense to you thats probably why and I apologize.
Ian,
why do think that the density of grass gives a better putting surface. I disagree as it also requires you to have a very low height of cut on the greens. This is fine in areas where you can cut low all of the year but where you can't then you are in for untrue greens in the winter time.
And I dont expect to use Primo because I am aware that you have restrictions in the UK. My point about Primo was that if you have poa greens and you dont use Primo, then you havent experienced the effects Primo will have and cant appreciate the poa as much as a super who does use Primo.
To answer a question about what would I do if I had poa greens but couldnt use Primo.....
First I would think about what Primo is doing physiologically in the plant and try to mimic that chemical reaction in another round a bout way. Primo is slowing down the cell elongation in the meristematic region near the crown.
And because of that I would never put any organic fertilizer down containing seaweed or kelp extracts which contain the naturally occurring hormones that promote cell elongation and division.
Then I would look at my nutrients being put down on the greens. They are all important but I would cut off phosphorus inputs and only use phosphite when in need of P2O5. I would also be pushing Potassium all the time. Keeping Calcium magnesium balanced. And incorporating silicon all the time. Nitrogen would also be spoon fed only as needed.
I would also look at mowing frequency. If the greens are naturally releasing Nitrogen due to thatch degradation I would look at mowing in the morning and in the late afternoon. If I were at a low budget course I would use myself and a rotation of all other annualy salaried staff to share in the late afternoon mowing everyday, and definetely friday through sunday. The higher mowing frequency and lower clipping yield will keep the greens smooth and more consistent.
I would also keep them between .90" and .125".
If I had a roller theyd be rolled all the time as well.
In relation to the silicon and calcium I would be grooming them as much as I could with the brooming, verticutting and topdressing to stand that leaf blade up and keep the ball sitting up nicely. There would never be a leaf blade laying over.
One way or another Id get it done.
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Ian- Your management ways might work where you are, they wont work here. Poa in the UK pretty much needs to go back up to 0.25" from about mid October - mid April. At that height, given its disease problems it can be a pretty crap surface. As a broad statement, In the UK its impossible to have great greens 365 days of the year if you play on them and you cant put leaves on the trees in the winter.
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Ian, apology accepted. I am actually, as stated earlier in this thread working in Switzerland. GRs are available in the UK but not here in the Alps unless you're growing grapes(I wish to god they were).
I do all my bench settings in mm and not inches but looking at Adrians reply I think it is safe to say your setting are closer to 3mm than 5mm. At that rate here in Switzerland you would have alot of dead grass on the greens going into the spring.
It is an interesting read that you have given in your last post and I will look into it more closely to see what I can incorperate into management here. I am sorry if I appear to disagree with when you make a statement on poa annua, it is usually just a query as the best way to learn in greenkeeping is by hearing practical advice and experience of others such as yourself.
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Steve,
I dont think there is any debate on poa getting disease. It does. But so does bent. each get certain diseases more than the other in different regions and climates.
I want to make it clear to anyone following this thread that one size does not fit all. Steve and Jon are in Europe and theyre preaching Nitrogen and its effects with fusarium in poa greens.
Here in Southern California Ive never seen fusarium once. Never at Riviera and never at LACC. And both operations spoon feed the greens aiming at .10 lbs / 1000 of nitrogen on a biweekly basis. Nor has it come up as a serious issue with supers in the entire region.
Steve if we were to generalize and come to a semi-conclusion that if you have a 50 / 50 bent-poa mix and your fert program was down at 2 lbs. N per year and you still end up with that much fusarium.......I wouldnt conclude that it is only because of Nitrogen that causes and promotes fusarium. That amount of disease is unacceptable to me personally and for the clientele I deal with more importantly.
The last time I saw that much disease on a green was at my first job as an assistant super at a nicklaus course in northeast pennsylvania. We had 7 year old greens at the time, totally bentgrass. He also had the fertility down to 2 lbs a year. We constantly had a problem with dollar spot no matter what we sprayed. At one point we were down to a 10 day fungicide spray.....
.....funny thing is that the only thing that saved us was when we bumped up the Nitrogen input.
Also, the picture shows some spreader tracks in the dew. You obviously didnt mow as to try and not spread the mycellium even more and what did you spread on the greens when you woke up to that?
And being at 50 / 50 bent-poa but managing for bent, what are you doing to promote the bent? And is it working?
With promoting bent, are you on any program to kill off the poa chemically? And at what cost? And at what success rate? Is it worth it?
If you are not on any program to eradicate poa, are you not promoting it?
When you started at this course were the greens new 100% bent? If not what was the percentage of poa in the greens?
Im not saying Nitrogen is not a contributing factor to fusarium in your part of the world. How could I? But I do know from my experiences and my colleagues experiences that fusarium hasnt conclusively been attributed to high Nitrogen in my part of the world.
I think Torrey is also a testament to poa greens. The USGA recommended poa greens to a public city owned course for the US Open....
I mowed greens that whole week and was with the USGA officials as they are doing their daily monitering of green speeds and firmness data. The poa conversion from bent was great. And the greens were great. All the poa greens at any US Open have been great. Thats why you see US Open greens as poa. Thats no coincedence. And as far as Torrey, after the US Open is long and gone its still a city course that still has to live with poa greens. If poa was such a monster I dont think a city course on a city budget would want that burden, if it were a burden. Playability-wise and finacially.
I do think we will see our first US Open with bent greens at Olympic though.
Just when I thought we had buried this thread it's back from the dead. I wish my Poa were that resilient.
So many questions.
In my experience, Poa is much more susceptible to diseases than is bentgrass. Not only in my experience, but there is a plethora of documented research saying so.
As bad as the Fusarium is in the photos, it could have been worse. To put it into context, we have two courses, so with practice greens and a nursery I'm managing 40 greens. Six of the greens were affected in that attack, to varying degrees. The photos show the worst damage on the worst affected green. I can only guess how bad it might have been had I pumped the turf up with N. (Another green, not 50 yards from that one, was completely unaffectd.)
The reason I took the photos then was because I was communicating with a pathologist from STRI, Dr. Ruth Mann, who was very helpful. The identification of the disease was never in doubt, but we couldn't figure out what to do about it, it was showing resistance to normal fungicide applications. In the end, I just kept blasting away with the 4-5 available chemicals and it eventually subsided.
The spreader tracks you see in the dew, (very observant, you really are a greenkeeper), was from the application of Scotts Step, a granular micro-nutrient package we were putting down to compensate for a manganese deficiency.
The bad thing is when you get that damage at the end of September, then there's not enough growth for it to recover, and you're looking at the scars until the following May. In this climate, the greens are open year round, except for the odd frost days. They are sand based, I hesitate to say USGA, and they are mowed at 3mm. (0.125 in.) year round as well. Members expect 10-11 feet even in January. Thank God for Primo.
No, I don't expect you will see much Fusarium in Los Angeles. I've noticed that the bentgrass here seems more susceptible to dollar spot than the Poa. But contrary to Fusarium, dollar spot is encouraged by low N, so it makes sense that it would clear up after you bumped the N up in Pennsylvania.
The greens here were already infested with Poa when I arrived, from 10% to 90%, depending. At that time, they were about 10 years old. I don't actively promote either the bent or the Poa. I strive to provide the best playing surface on a day to day basis, and let nature take its course. Research and experience tell me I can't do anything to change the composition of the sward without a critical loss of putting quality for an extended period of time.
What I see is right now, at the end of summer, the greens look about 70% bentgrass, but by next March, they will be predominantly Poa; the dominant population shifts with the seasons.
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Ian Larson:
That post #131 looks really good to me in a general sense.
Most of the reason I say that is you have to understand I'm no agronomist at all, not even close. All the basic ingredients and ramifications of agronomic management, even nitrogen, are sort of Greek to me.
But what I have been noticing over the years is success with greens and courses over time seems to be going to the supers who basically keep it simple even if their dealing basically with poa.
I really like what you say about basic nutrition like a diet for a human. Grass is a living thing too and I doubt it deals that well with any kind of management program if its basically artificial---chemical, and on a program of this fix and that fix at the opposite extreme, etc, etc. I've come to call that kind of management program the "Great American Agronomic Emergency Ward."
I see supers like HVGC's Scott Anderson whose been on a basic organic, low water program for many years and he manages his multi-strain but basically poa greens by letting them do what he calls "harden off". He's also one really good soil expert who's into a natural soil mode.
I take that to mean basically a Darwinian process where the weak dies out and the strong takes over and survives and prospers under a long term management program that sort of lets the grass do its natural thing organically.
The Oakmont unique poa strain has to have developed that way over many many years and HVGC is probably the same even if multi-strain.
To me it's just commonsensical and it really is sort of Darwinian. I think that's the good new but I guess in this business the bad news is to get there anyone and everyone is just going to have to realize it can and does take time----lots and lots of time to get grass to that ideal point where it can do for itself much more naturally.
Maybe that simplistic, probably is, but in a general sense would you deny it?
Again, isn't the flip-side, the down-side that there are just too many micromanagers out there and with way too much artificial stuff? I get the feeling grass, a living thing, doesn't do that well with that kind of human and artificial micromanagement with all these chemicals that constantly whip it this way and then that way and on and on.
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Ian,
Why would you manage poa and bent the same? They are two different grasses they should be managed different. If you manage you bent like poa you will get poa. If you manage for bent you will have bent. It is not that difficult. If you verticut and disturb the surface you will encourage poa. Too much surface disruption encourages poa. Take a look at STRI and their theory on surface disruption, it is very clear about the differences in the two grasses. Additionally their fertility requirements are different. If you have poa, yes you need to feed it, if you have bent, why would you feed a grass that have evolved with such little nutritional requirements? In my opinion, when courses with bentgrass greens start getting poa it is because they are over managing their greens.
Jeff Johnson
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Jeff,
My management would be similar but different. The cultural practices would be the same with grooming but the variables would be with fert, water, fungicide.
Bentgrass requires verticutting. No matter what STRI says. If the only thing you ever do is mow, you will end up with "leafy" greens. The leaf blades will eventually start laying over here and there and slowly get worse. The ill effects of this are a green, even with a pure bentgrass green, that can be inconsistent and untrue with ball roll.
And consistency and trueness is what I personally am striving for in the end product. Screw greenspeed. I would rather putt on a green stimping at 8 feet that rolls true and consistent than a green thats stimping 12 feet thats bumpy and not true. And so would the members.
You have your right to your opinion but bent greens that start getting poa is not over management. Poa wants to naturally be on that green and its only a matter of time. Especially if you do nothing about it.
Lastly, if you think my management style is over managing or off based. Do some research on Paul Latshaw Jrs bentgrass greens at Muirfield Village where they have the Memorial Tournament every year. They are pure bentgrass and they were some of the best greens on the tour this year according to the pro's. Latshaw does everything to his greens that I do. (Or I should say that the other way around). He spoon feeds. He pays attention to soils. He aggressively grooms his greens. If you dont do these things you cant expect to have a high-end product. If your clientele doesnt expect to have high quality green surfaces then you shouldnt strive to have it and youll be able to get away without grooming.
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TEPaul,
Its for guys like yourself that Im being persistent on this thread. Guys that are not claiming to be educated on plant physiology and are most likely members at clubs that just want to be educated and learn about it. And this can be a great forum for communication and education especially for the guys who arent in the field and can take bits and pieces back to their greens committee meetings. Ive personally been in a bad situation where there was a complete lack of communication from on the golf course up to the clubs hierarchy. It became a huge political mess and if there were only good communication and some education, there never would have been a problem.
As for your last thread....
I have alot of respect for Scott Anderson at HVGC thats why I put up that video last week. I also like to be is organic as I can be. I actually order alot of my product from a company in Lancaster, Pennsylvania called "Organic Approach".
But lest face it, pretty much everything a superintendent does to maintain a green is unnatural. That grass naturally wants to grow at 12-18" and go to seed. And implementing any type of fert or cultural program is unnatural. Regardless of money, chemicals or cultural practices all greens are being artificially maintained. The only guys that come close to naturally maintaining them are the UK and European guys.
The most a super can do is while maintaining a course and his greens the way he should, he should also try to incorporate organic and biological practices before automatically buying hazardous synthetic compounds. Sometimes thats impossible but its part of the supers role to be a steward to the enviornment and use better management practices. Especially these days with the enviornment issue being so hot. The last thing the profession needs is one bad egg contaminating a water source or something and it gets alot of press.
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Adrian,
If its the poa that requires you to go all the way up to .250" in the winter. Why not get rid of the poa? .250" is the same height as my collars and approaches. I couldnt imagine having to putt on that.
And I disagree that my cultural practices wouldnt work over there. Because there are supers already doing what I talk about, as we speak, that have great greens. I know because they are personal friends of mine.
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Ian, you cant keep Poa free greens in the UK for any length of time. Where are your friends with great greens in the UK?
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Adrian,
If they have no problem with me mentioning them and their respective clubs I will. I cant throw them under the bus without their permission.
Why dont you embrace the poa and allow natural selection to do its thing?
If the poa is naturally invading the greens time after time year after year and enough of it sticks around every year, just keep it. Farm it. Love it. Be the poa.
Do you have access to UK versions of Primo or Proxy?
If I were at a course in say, Nova Scotia, which could be the generally same climate as the UK. And poa was too much of a battle to keep out, I would promote it. If the members can accept the fact that they have to putt on greens cut at 1/4" then Im sure seeing some disease like Steve showed isnt gonna be a deal breaker. And I say promote it because with the climate there the poa isnt using so much of its energy to make it through the summer. It seems that the mild temps are ideal for poa and thats why you cant keep it away. If poa can survive at the more southern latitudes Im sure it can in the more northern ones just fine. Unless its Sweden or the Arctic.
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Ian- Thats pretty much what we do in the UK.... live with it. We do have Primo, and we have used it a couple of times this year coupled with feeding but we dont really feed in the winter. Its clear that the Poa is wanting food wherby the Bent is healthy but you need to experience Fusarium to appreciate why we cant feed and promote the Poa.
We maybe only spray twice a year for disease and sometimes it may only be isolated greens, micro climates and diseases are prolific in the UK and its not uncommon for some greens to go without fungicidal treatments for years where others are constant hell.
BTW Poa does better than most grasses in Iceland.
Also I am not talking about creeping bentgrass here in the UK that is another set of problems. We use European Colonial bentgrasses which in fairness integrate reasonably well with the long term strains of poa.
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After reading the "Maintenance Practice" thread I thought back to this thread that I started a few weeks ago regarding a certain question. It seems like this might be a stupid question, but I am not positive about the answer. Here it is.
I have read on this site many times that after seeding a green with Bent grass (in Northern California) it can usually last about 6-8 years before being taken over by Poa Annua. I know that time frame can be expanded due to rigorous maintenance. So here is my question. Why is it that it takes that long for the Poa to intrude. Isn't it just a matter of getting Poa seed on the Bent greens? What would prevent these seeds from being carried onto the greens within the first few weeks? Its not like the seeds are only brought in on shoes after five years. Just curious as to the delay before it takes over. Thanks again for all of the responses to the original question as well.
Robert
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Robert,
I bulldozed my old nursery at LACC last year and constructed four USGA greens that are being used as test plots for the newest bents coming out of the universities. A couple weeks after germination I was seeing poa infestation. But I controlled it and kept it out. If its not controlled it will infest the greens starting from day one and just increase exponentially.
I just returned from a trip to my parents house in Happy Valley Pa. On my way back to the Philly airport I stopped in at Bent Creek Country Club in Lancaster Pa. To visit the superintendent who is a good friend of mine, Jim Loke. When I arrived and waited for him in his office I noticed a framed article from "Golf Course News" on his office wall. The article was about what he has accomplished with keeping his bent greens poa free.
Bent Creek Country Club is approaching its 20th anniversery and Jim has been its only super. He came from Firestone and was there during construction and grew everything in. Those greens are his other children.
My point is, Jim Loke has kept his bent greens pure for almost twenty years. And that is no fluke. He hit the ground running starting from day one with those greens and keeping poa out. He never rested on his laurels and just let it happen. Hes an innovative guy thats motivated enough to fight it.
Im not saying that this case can be true all over the world or even norcal. But south central pennsylvania is no slouch. Hot and Humid summers and cold fall, winter and springs. Poa wants to be there.
As I was riding around the course one of his secrets was simply not to aerify while the poa is seeding. Jim aerifies in the middle of the summer. And there are many more practices that he does, and does not do to keep it out.
Thats why I have a hard time listening to "How poa automatically infests the green". In my opinion that if the super is savvy and motivated, poa can be beat.
If anything Jim Loke and his greens at Bent Creek are a testiment to that.
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Robert,
noone sows poa annua on their greens but it is a grass that always appears. I have never understood this fetish about monoculture greens. If you sow one grass as a monoculture with the idea of keeping it that way but end up with another then maybe your original goal is wrong.
How does poa annua get into the sward? It is transported in by animals, people, machines, the wind to name but a few. If there is poa annua around naturally (in most cool season grass climates it is) then it is not realistically possible to keep it out. On the otherside why would you not want a certain % of the most adaptable, successful cool season grass there is? I don't favour a monocultur as it rarely works and although I try to keep the amount of poa annua in my sward down to a minimum I still desire some due to the diversity it brings.
Ian,
gee big turn around here from poa hugger to poa basher ;)
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Thanks guys..... a follow up question for you.
What is it that allows a super to keep it out at the beginning but not after a few years (besides the special occasions). Does the Poa adapt and develop a resistance to the maintenance practices over time??
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Jon,
Im a grass hugger, I love them all. Each one has its place in certain situations. If you look back to my earlier posts my stance was that if I adopted greens that were infested with poa from say 30 to 50 percent. I would promote the poa, and have great greens. If I adopted greens that were pure bent, I would fight the poa.
Robert,
If poa were to become immune it would become immune to chemical control, not cultural practices. Its not unheard of that a grass becomes immune to chemicals like herbicides or fungicides.
And its not that after a few years the super "just cant keep it out". Look at my post about Jim Loke at Bent Creek. His entire MO was to keep poa out and he shaped his program to do so from day one when the greens were new. If a super has new bent greens and they become infested with poa after a few years he....
1. Didnt stick with a strict and regimented program to keep the poa out.
2. Theres a point where if you try to eradicate poa when it gets up to 30 - 40 percent, he may lose his job because the greens will look half dead. At that point he is probably living with it. And IMHO the poa should be promoted.
Again, this is all about being smart about management. Its natural selection and survival of the fittest.
Poa costs money to maintain. And Bent costs money to keep poa out.
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Robert,
Thought I'd throw in a couple comments towards answering your questions.
Regarding the notion of new bentgrass greens eventually being run over by Poa, Ian has a pretty substantial answer above. However, to be a bit more thorough I would add:
Poa is a very opportunistic plant. Which means that it will take hold whereever conditions readily allow it. Poa as a weed as we talk about it here in bentgrass greens, like any weed, will mostly come in where an open opportunity presents itself. As such, I firmly believe in a rather general but effective rule in integrated pest management "The best defense against pests is a healthy, dense stand of turfgrass." If your grass is healthy and dense, with no open opportunities for intrusion, Poa, or any weed, will be hard pressed to find a place to take hold.
This goes hand in hand with what Ian was mentioning about aerfication at the right time of year. Basically, anytime you open up wounds in your green (which is VERY often, since you must consider ball marks as wounds), you open your greens up to the chance for Poa to intrude. If you're going to create wounds, or know they will occur from golfers, you had to take measures to assist the bentgrass in combating the Poa as it tries to germinate in that wound. Supers often do this by (1) keeping the bentgrass as healthy as possible so it can "heal" naturally as rapidly as possible, (2) by monitoring for Poa and removing it by hand when the bentgrass is unable to compete or (3) using chemicals such as pre-emergents or selective herbicides to prevent, slow down, or kill newly germinating Poa.
And to try and shed some light on the last question you had, I can't speak from very much experience, as I've never grown in a course, but working with rennovation (similar concept of growing in SOME new grass, just not a whole course) and having spoken with grow-in supers, the difference in initial grow-in control and afterwards is golfers. It can be much easier to control your grass, environment and maintenance practices and regimines when there is no play to worry about. But maintaining that same level of dedication to control grows considerably when you have to work around play and time constraints and added unpredictable wear and tear by normal play.
Hope that all helps clear things up a bit more. I enjoy this discussion because I've always dealt with bent/poa combo greens up until my current job and it was always a struggle to try and keep both grasses happy and healthy together, as opposed to now, at a course that is currently 7 years old, with about 5-15% Poa in otherwise bentgrass greens, to try and fight that notion that Poa is on the brink of taking over and working fervently to hold it back and promote the great pure bentgrass greens that are the reputation of this course.
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Jon,
Im a grass hugger, I love them all.
I am a grass hugger too ;D ;D ;D ::)
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Robert,
I bulldozed my old nursery at LACC last year and constructed four USGA greens that are being used as test plots for the newest bents coming out of the universities. A couple weeks after germination I was seeing poa infestation. But I controlled it and kept it out. If its not controlled it will infest the greens starting from day one and just increase exponentially.
I just returned from a trip to my parents house in Happy Valley Pa. On my way back to the Philly airport I stopped in at Bent Creek Country Club in Lancaster Pa. To visit the superintendent who is a good friend of mine, Jim Loke. When I arrived and waited for him in his office I noticed a framed article from "Golf Course News" on his office wall. The article was about what he has accomplished with keeping his bent greens poa free.
Bent Creek Country Club is approaching its 20th anniversery and Jim has been its only super. He came from Firestone and was there during construction and grew everything in. Those greens are his other children.
My point is, Jim Loke has kept his bent greens pure for almost twenty years. And that is no fluke. He hit the ground running starting from day one with those greens and keeping poa out. He never rested on his laurels and just let it happen. Hes an innovative guy thats motivated enough to fight it.
Im not saying that this case can be true all over the world or even norcal. But south central pennsylvania is no slouch. Hot and Humid summers and cold fall, winter and springs. Poa wants to be there.
As I was riding around the course one of his secrets was simply not to aerify while the poa is seeding. Jim aerifies in the middle of the summer. And there are many more practices that he does, and does not do to keep it out.
Thats why I have a hard time listening to "How poa automatically infests the green". In my opinion that if the super is savvy and motivated, poa can be beat.
If anything Jim Loke and his greens at Bent Creek are a testiment to that.
Ian,
You know what would be great? If you shared with us some insight on how Jim Loke does it, keeping Poa out of his greens forever, because lots and lots of the very best supers have tried and failed.
I could say, "I have greens rolling 13 feet every day of the year because I'm an innovative guy, there are many practices I use, and I don't rest on my laurels".
But that would be friggin' lame.
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Steve,
That would all be dependent on if he actually knows why what he is doing has worked. If he does, I agree with you that the world of golf would LOVE the insight!!!!
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JS Payne,
what do you do if you can't use chemicals? It will come even in the USA eventually. Also, what is so great about a monoculture? Bent or otherwise.
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Jon,
Help me clarify your question about chemicals.....are you talking about seeding a new green, or trying to eliminate or reduce Poa from an exisitng green, or simply trying to stop Poa from infesting even more of an already infested green? The answers may be different.......
In regards to a monoculture, very few stands of turfgrass are, and monocultures do have definite drawbacks. However, saying a "pure bentgrass" green does not equal a monoculture. Often greens of any type of grass are seeded with the same SPECIES of grass (i.e bentgrass, bermudagrass, fescues), but varied CULTIVARS. Like the A-series or the Penncross series of bentgrasses, or the bentgrasses on my course (we seed with Dominant Plus and Dominant Extreme, which in themselves are a mix of sub-cultivars of the 'Dominant' bentgrass cultivar). This keeps the green uniform, but assists in defending against pest and pathogens that may be more suceptible in one type of cultivar than the other, which is why we stay away from monocultures as much as possible.......if one dies or gets sick, the others are more than likely to suffer the same unless something is done immeadiately.
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JSP,
Any of the situations you describe. Hand weeding is the obvious one but what other options would you use specifically to reduce poa annua.
I understand your point on cultivars but would also point out that under the cultivars there are differences in growth rates, leaf size etc. so I m not sure that using pure bents (palustris) gives the advantage of keeping the green uniform. Other than this what other advantages do you see in mono species greens?
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Jon,
You are correct, hand weeding is the obvious answer, but the other obvious answer is applicable to growing any turfgrass in efforts to keep out undesirable species: go back to the fundamentals of turf management. Specifically, find out EXACTLY what needs your desirable species has, and what makes it different from the undesirable species and adjust your maintenance practices to HEAVILY favor the desirable. Sounds easy enough, but often is very hard to be so exact and precise in practice.
For example, in this conversation we want to promote bentgrass and keep out Poa. I go first to my golden rule of turfgrass management: The best defense against any pest is a dense, healthy stand of turfgrass. So there's your first answer, you need to do everything it takes to keep the bentgrass dense and healthy ALL the time. There are two other management areas that deserve specific attention in this situation.
First, irrigation and fertility. If you do your research, you will find EXACTLY what levels of fertility and soil situation bentgrass enjoys. Look at how this differs from Poa. Specifically, bent prefers lower inputs of nitrogen than Poa. It also prefers more acidic soils than Poa. And as a more minor aspect, it tends to benefit more from iron applications than Poa. Then look at the ways you irrigate. Bentgrass naturally wants to be deep rooting. Poa is a clump grass with shallow roots. Deep, infrequent watering will encourage the bent to go deep while drying out the shallow roots of the Poa. Essentially, with just these two elements, you can slowly but surely "starve" exisiting Poa as well as new seedlings trying to emerge all the while pushing the bentgrass to be more healthy and vigorous and ultimately outcompete the Poa.
Secondly, you have to think hard about cultivation, including aerification, verticutting, spiking, scarifying......basically anything that damages or opens up your bent to invasion. Poa simply cannot take foothold in a 100% dense stand of bentgrass....it can't find the soil and if it does, it can't find sunlight. But no stands are 100% dense. Poa comes in when and where opportunity presents itself in the form of a thin or open area of turf. Some of these you have a hard time controlling, like ball marks. But all of the cultivation practices you do have control over. Some courses choose not to aerify. I'm not saying that. Bentgrass needs and likes cultivation, but it's a matter of choosing the right timing, priming to the bent to recover as quickly as possible with shots of fertility, and to take all possible measures to prevent Poa from taking hold in any wounds you do inflict.
There are innumerable ways to go about doing this, and I don't even claim to know half of them, but keeping the fundamental ideas and understanding about the differences in the two grasses and making a dedicated, concerted effort to create and maintain an environment more conducive to the success of one over the other should help you obtain the results that you are looking for.
And in regards to the second part of your post.....
The answer goes hand in hand with what we're talking about above. The benefit to a "monostand" (though I really don't think that's a great description if you're looking at a literal definition) or one grass SPECIES type of green, is that you only have to worry about maintaining ONE grass! As we just talked about above, different species, while similar, still have stark differences in the way they prefer and OUGHT to be maintained. With one grass species, you don't have to play around trying to find the right mix that will keep both grass types happy. For one specific example, look again at irrigation. If you have a 50/50 blend of Poa/Bent, you have a shallow rooter and a deep rooter. Depending on climate and time of year, the bent on a USGA green could probably go with 1-2 deep waterings a week and be 100% fine. The Poa on the same green would be struggling, unless supplemented with some serious attention to handwatering or light daily syringing, which is what many supers in this situation do. I enjoy the fact that with mostly pure bentgrass greens, I don't worry about the Poa drying out because there's not enough of it make a difference, and I water max 3 times per week in the high heat of the summer and only had to handwatering the interior greens mounds twice all year. With more Poa than I have, I'd never get away with that.
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Well said JSPayne
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JSP,
thanks for the answer, an interesting read,
Jon :)
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Good answer, Jeremy. I would add that if it is important enought to a super to have poa free greens, watering once a week with supplimental hand watering in between and having a good set up person who sees all the greens every day- his 2nd job after set up is plugging out poa. I know this works- I've seen it done before first hand and this is what we do at Rock Creek.
Mat
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Thanks for chiming in Matt! I learned a good deal about all this from our phone conversation. I love the pics people have posted here of your course....looks like you're doing a fantastic job. We sure miss you in CA, but now TD has one of the best supers to take care of one of his best designs......very cool.
Now I just need to find the time to sneak away from my new place to get to see yours.......I'm itching for a golf road trip.
Let me know if you're ever back in CA......we need a reunion!
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Thanks for chiming in Matt! I learned a good deal about all this from our phone conversation. I love the pics people have posted here of your course....looks like you're doing a fantastic job. We sure miss you in CA, but now TD has one of the best supers to take care of one of his best designs......very cool.
Now I just need to find the time to sneak away from my new place to get to see yours.......I'm itching for a golf road trip.
Let me know if you're ever back in CA......we need a reunion!
C'mon out any time- maybe you and Tully should make a road trip!!
I may be back in Nor Cal around January or so- I'll look you up!!!
Mat