Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 03, 2008, 07:44:08 PM

Title: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 03, 2008, 07:44:08 PM
In the Westwood thread that I started about 2 months ago, there was this comment: "Westwood was built as the Jewish equivalent of St. Louis CC" This has prompted me to ask about the courses of these clubs. My research has revealed only these courses are nationally rated:

Golf Digest

Quaker Ridge is 33 in America's Greatest 100 and  7 in NY state
Century is 20 in NY state
Franklin Hills is 21 in Michigan
Mountain Ridge is 14 in NJ
Hollywood is 15 in NJ
Broadmoor is 15 in Indiana

Golfweek

Quaker Ridge is 35 in Best Classic
Fenway is 60 in Best Classic
Franklin Hills is 63 in Best Classic
Engineers is 79 in Best Classic
Hollywood is 83 in Best Classic

It should be noted that Hollywood and Engineers were not originally founded as  "Jewish clubs." By that I mean founded as a result of the blatant antisemitism of private clubs of pre WWII America.

Clearly, Quaker Ridge is the top ranked course.


Have I missed any other ranked clubs?

Where do the remainder of these clubs stand?  How about these:

Sunningdale, Metropolis, Old Oaks, Elmwood, Hampshire and Willow Ridge, all in Westchester County, NY
Fairview in Connecticut
Crestmont, Preakness Hills, Shackamaxon and Woodcrest in New Jersey
Fresh Meadow, Glen Oaks, Inwood, Middle Bay, North Shore, Seawane and Woodmere on Long Island.
Philmont, Green Valley, Radnor Valley, Meadowlands and Westmoreland in Pennsylvania
Hillcrest and Brentwood in Los Angeles
Hillcrest, Twin Orchards, Briarwood and many others in the Chicago area.
Woodmont and Suburban in Maryland
Standard in Atlanta
Westwood in St. Louis

And the list goes on...
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jed Peters on September 03, 2008, 07:47:10 PM
Lake Merced Country Club in San Francisco, CA is one of note as well--but was hacked by Rees Jones' firm (IMHO).

I do need to play it again, however....

That being said, I would have loved to play the Mackenzie routing/design back in the 30s and 40s....
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Phil_the_Author on September 03, 2008, 07:49:18 PM
There is the Standard Club in Alpharetta, Georgia as well. It is a fine course that underent a renovation by Arthur Hills a few years ago. Everyone speaks highly of it...
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bruce Leland on September 03, 2008, 07:57:08 PM
Oak Ridge CC in Hopkins MN is a fine old course that should be included here.  I played The Standard Club in Alpharetta about 3 years ago and it is an interesting layout on rolling terrain.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Pete_Pittock on September 03, 2008, 07:58:32 PM
Tualatin CC near Portland
Glendale near Seattle
Richmond in Vancouver BC
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bob Jenkins on September 03, 2008, 08:08:24 PM

Richmond Golf Club near Vancouver is one of A.V. Macan's later courses and has been the subject of some discussion on this board. It would not, however, be considered a classic or even top 5 in this area.

Bob
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tim Gavrich on September 03, 2008, 08:19:15 PM
Belmont CC outside of Boston is a Ross course that was recently renovated, I believe.  I've not played it, but I've heard good things.

Tumble Brook CC in West Hartford, CT
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Lawrence Largent on September 03, 2008, 08:23:26 PM
Starmount Forest in Greensboro
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jason Topp on September 03, 2008, 08:51:16 PM
Oak Ridge CC in Hopkins MN is a fine old course that should be included here. 

I am at Oak Ridge.  Sometimes we are on state lists.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Ronald Montesano on September 03, 2008, 08:51:34 PM
How coincidental!  The Westwood CC near Buffalo is also a historically-Jewish club!  It has some lineage, traceable to Colt and Allison, but was also butchered by William Harries.  It sits on a non-descript piece of land but has a great 17th and a tricky 18th.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: J_ Crisham on September 03, 2008, 09:12:06 PM
Ravisloe and Lake Shore in the Chicago burbs were very much Jewish clubs back in the day. Not sure if they have opened up over the years. I have played with some great guys from both of these clubs over the years.
                                                            Jack 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Adam Clayman on September 03, 2008, 09:21:29 PM
From my limited understanding, Sunningdale in N.Y. is worthy of study on many levels. Not just architectural history, but more importantly, to study why ill-conceived changes got made and how to recognize that failed process and learn from it.
 
I would expect the recent work being done there will raise the quality of the golf tremendously. Whether it's recognized by magazine lists, or not.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike Sweeney on September 03, 2008, 09:32:32 PM
Rockrimmon by RTJ in Stamford, CT on the Pound Ridge, NY border and Preakness Hills in NJ are historically Jewish but I believe they have opened up over the years like many of those mentioned before.

Noyac GC by William Mitchell in Sag Harbor, NY was founded by a Jewish guy who the story goes could not get into any of the Big clubs in Southampton. However, he made a point that it was non-denominational.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bob_Huntley on September 03, 2008, 09:47:57 PM
Lake Merced Country Club in San Francisco, CA is one of note as well--but was hacked by Rees Jones' firm (IMHO).

I do need to play it again, however....

That being said, I would have loved to play the Mackenzie routing/design back in the 30s and 40s....

Jed,

What is it that Rees Jones did that displeases you?

What was his remit? Did he ignore the requests of his clients? As I have heard, it was  some of the younger members of the club that decided to toughen it up. Do tell me if I am wrong.

Bob
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bill Brightly on September 03, 2008, 10:06:21 PM
You missed Tillinghast's Alpine (originally named Aldecress) in New  Jersey. Some of the most devilish greens I have ever played.

http://www.alpinecc.org/Files/Library/TheNewCourseofAldecress.pdf

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Ash Towe on September 03, 2008, 10:12:33 PM
If you wish to go international, in Leeds, England, Moor Allerton was predominantly jewish.  Peter Alliss was the pro there for quite a few years.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 03, 2008, 10:14:59 PM
Bill,

Alpine is one of those clubs that was not founded as "Jewish club" but should have been included in my NJ listings.

Other clubs on the list are:

Brynwood in Milwaukee
Highland in Omaha
Meadowbrook in Tulsa

and more...
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tim Gavrich on September 03, 2008, 11:40:08 PM
If you wish to go international, in Leeds, England, Moor Allerton was predominantly jewish.  Peter Alliss was the pro there for quite a few years.
Hartsbourne outside of London is also historically Jewish.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jed Peters on September 03, 2008, 11:52:21 PM
Lake Merced Country Club in San Francisco, CA is one of note as well--but was hacked by Rees Jones' firm (IMHO).

I do need to play it again, however....

That being said, I would have loved to play the Mackenzie routing/design back in the 30s and 40s....

Jed,

What is it that Rees Jones did that displeases you?

What was his remit? Did he ignore the requests of his clients? As I have heard, it was  some of the younger members of the club that decided to toughen it up. Do tell me if I am wrong.

Bob

Bob,

It's not so much as to what he did there that displeases me (I think the course is a fine, fair test of golf) but rather displeases my "eye". I can tell that the shape was taken out of the greens and bunkers by a single play, and the "old timey-ness" and classic feel were thusly pulled out.

This was accomplished by (seemingly on my one view around the property) "reesing" up the bunkers (sharpening up edges, taking out "wildness", deepening them), pushing up the greens, etc.

I have no problem with his lengthening of the course--but the greensites--which you can see originally were fantastic (post Lock/done by mackenzie) and this has been lost.

My take on it was that years of neglect and "average" club maintenance (and undoubtedly by the work of Robert Muir Graves!)  practices probably lost most of the mackenzie that was there anyhow--and this necessitated the re-do.

While I think it's a great option, and a place I could play (and would play) whenever, just that I think that the club's location/site and layout lend itself to a more "classic" approach.

Regarding the younger members wanting to toughen it up, I played unaccompanied the visit I had there, on a reciprocal, so I can't speak to that aspect of your query.

Jed

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 03, 2008, 11:58:41 PM
I use to play a "historically African American" public club in North Chicago (Foss Park).  Are there any "historically Jewish" public clubs in the country?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Chris Cupit on September 04, 2008, 12:20:43 AM
There is the Standard Club in Alpharetta, Georgia as well. It is a fine course that underent a renovation by Arthur Hills a few years ago. Everyone speaks highly of it...

Phillip,

The Standard Club underwent a complete renovation of all its bunkers and green complexes a few years ago but the work was by Michael Riley NOT Arthur Hills.  It is tremendously improved and the competitors at the recent US Amateur qualifier held there gave it terrific reviews.  The mounds and "hidden grass bunkers" of art hills were largely replaced by some terrific bunkering and the greens are some of the best in Atlanta (I think the 2nd best complexes in the area ;))

Anyway, it's much more a Riley course (if you believe greens are the "faces" of he course revealing their character as a Tillinghast man I assume would :)) than a Hills one now although the routing was almost unchanged.  (#9 green location was moved considerabley but I am not positive about any others)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Matt_Cohn on September 04, 2008, 03:32:30 AM
Lake Merced Country Club in San Francisco, CA is one of note as well--but was hacked by Rees Jones' firm (IMHO).

I do need to play it again, however....

That being said, I would have loved to play the Mackenzie routing/design back in the 30s and 40s....

Jed,

What is it that Rees Jones did that displeases you?

What was his remit? Did he ignore the requests of his clients? As I have heard, it was  some of the younger members of the club that decided to toughen it up. Do tell me if I am wrong.

Bob

Bob,

It's not so much as to what he did there that displeases me (I think the course is a fine, fair test of golf) but rather displeases my "eye". I can tell that the shape was taken out of the greens and bunkers by a single play, and the "old timey-ness" and classic feel were thusly pulled out.

This was accomplished by (seemingly on my one view around the property) "reesing" up the bunkers (sharpening up edges, taking out "wildness", deepening them), pushing up the greens, etc.

I have no problem with his lengthening of the course--but the greensites--which you can see originally were fantastic (post Lock/done by mackenzie) and this has been lost.

My take on it was that years of neglect and "average" club maintenance (and undoubtedly by the work of Robert Muir Graves!)  practices probably lost most of the mackenzie that was there anyhow--and this necessitated the re-do.

While I think it's a great option, and a place I could play (and would play) whenever, just that I think that the club's location/site and layout lend itself to a more "classic" approach.

Regarding the younger members wanting to toughen it up, I played unaccompanied the visit I had there, on a reciprocal, so I can't speak to that aspect of your query.

Jed



I don't think there was any Mackenzie left there after RMG in the early 1960's. Jed, I disagree with you about the course - it's one of my favorites - but more specifically that Rees did anything bad to it. I certainly don't think he took any Mackenzie out because I'm pretty sure there wasn't any Mackenzie left to remove as late as 1996. Somebody on this site has a picture of the 1960's version.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Scott Sander on September 04, 2008, 03:53:33 AM
Broadmoor in Indianapolis is a real pearl.

Golf Digest has it as the 15th-best in Indiana.  That's a little low, but close.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mark_Rowlinson on September 04, 2008, 04:28:40 AM
There was a thread some years ago about Jewish clubs and we discovered quite a few in the UK. Maybe somebody could post a link to it. I wonder if there is a protestant/catholic divide in Scotland or Ireland?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Phil_the_Author on September 04, 2008, 04:43:54 AM
Chris,

Thanks for the correction. A member had told me that Hills had done the work...
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: JWinick on September 04, 2008, 05:52:50 AM
In Long Island where I grew up, Jewish clubs were formed because Jews could not get into the exlusive Wasp clubs.  So, in much of the NY-area, there are still many predominatly Jewish, or for that matter, Wasp, Catholic, etc. clubs.  In Chicago where I live now, they do have a handful of Jewish clubs, but Chicago seems less segregated.  In fact, I don't know of any club that doesn't have a single Jewish member.  Recently, I played a famous golf course in the NY-area and I know for a fact that they don't have one Jewish member. 

Jewish clubs tend to have better clubhouses, food, amenities, etc., but usually mediocre golf courses.   I have no commentary on why that is such, but it seems common.  Perhaps, it's a function of the oldest, most exclusive clubs getting the best land.     
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bradley Anderson on September 04, 2008, 06:08:57 AM
We did a reasearch project of the tenures of superintendents in Chicago. The goal was to develop a history of every superintedent to work at all of the clubs going back to when they were founded.

I noticed an interesting pattern when I analyzed the superintedents with the longest tenures. Of the six superintendents with plus 40 years at one club, four had served Jewish clubs. There were only eight Jewish clubs out of hundreds on that whole list so that makes that statistic even more incredible.

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 04, 2008, 06:24:58 AM
Scott,

I knew about Broadmoor and have now included it in the list of ranked courses.

Here are some other clubs:

Irondequoit in Rochester
Green Gables in Denver
Knollwood and Tam O'Shanter in Detroit
Losantiville in Cincinnati
Oakwood in Kansas City
Jefferson-Lakeside in Richmond
Columbian in Dallas
Blue Ridge in Harrisburg, PA
Berkleigh in Reading, PA
Green Oaks in Pittsburgh, PA
Oakwood in Cleveland
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Thomas MacWood on September 04, 2008, 06:43:13 AM
The original Jewish club in Columbus was Winding Hollow, it was founded in the early 20s. Herbert Strong was engaged to design an 18-hole golf course, but for whatever reason only 9 holes were built. In the late 40's RTJ expanded it to 18, more in a Thompson vein than typical Trent Jones. Of all the courses in Columbus it may be the sportiest. Originally the course was way out in the country but as the city grew that part of town became pretty rough. They sold the course to the city, and moved further out to New Albany, building an Art Hills design that frankly was not very good. Unforntunately the club has gone under in the last few years and is no more (pressure from the near by CC of New Albany I guess). Their original course still survives as the public course Champions.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Paul_Daley on September 04, 2008, 07:35:20 AM
Fenimore, the forerunner to Fenway?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jon Spaulding on September 04, 2008, 07:47:40 AM
Lake Merced is a fine golf course and an excellent examination in ball-striking. Regarding the latter, perhaps the best in the neighborhood. The MacKenzie lineage tends to be way overstated; what small amount was once there has been gone for a long time as already mentioned.

I appreciate the different "look" and playing characteristics when compared to others around the lake. I would put it ahead of a number of the 30 courses listed in the current Golf Digest state rankings for CA.

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jon Spaulding on September 04, 2008, 07:50:15 AM
Green Hills in Millbrae, CA - formerly the Union League Club by Mackenzie.

Hillcrest in LA, CA - Watson.

I've not played the latter, but the former is a personal favorite, save a few holes :-\.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 04, 2008, 07:50:24 AM
Not only in my top 100 courses ever visited, my day at Briarwood was one of my top 100 best days of golf.  While the clubhouse is low profile by high end club standards, the club has without question the finest selection of furniture I have ever seen in a recreational environment.  Here is a link to the club history with a small example of the interior space: http://tinyurl.com/5neh6t  note:  My sincerest apologies if Briarwood does not condsider itself a HJC.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Brad Tufts on September 04, 2008, 07:52:57 AM
Blue Hill (I think), Belmont, and Kernwood here in Boston, among others I'm sure.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Dan Boerger on September 04, 2008, 08:05:01 AM
John - Nice pics of Briarwood. From that link, look who they say designed the course ... Allison, cold and McKenzie.
Something they may want to correct!
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 04, 2008, 08:07:55 AM
John - Nice pics of Briarwood. From that link, look who they say designed the course ... Allison, cold and McKenzie.
Something they may want to correct!

The member we all know, love and admire must cringe at that entire article.   I have searched for years for pics of the poolhouse.  It reminds me of the Jewel Box in Forest Park, St. Louis.  http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/parks/jewelbox/
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jim Nugent on September 04, 2008, 08:16:42 AM
Is El Caballero in Tarzana mostly Jewish? 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Peter Pratt on September 04, 2008, 08:18:24 AM
Add Franklin Hills to Knollwood and Tam O'Shanter in suburban Detroit.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike Golden on September 04, 2008, 08:18:48 AM
Lake Merced Country Club in San Francisco, CA is one of note as well--but was hacked by Rees Jones' firm (IMHO).

I do need to play it again, however....

That being said, I would have loved to play the Mackenzie routing/design back in the 30s and 40s....

Jed,

What is it that Rees Jones did that displeases you?

What was his remit? Did he ignore the requests of his clients? As I have heard, it was  some of the younger members of the club that decided to toughen it up. Do tell me if I am wrong.

Bob

Bob,

It's not so much as to what he did there that displeases me (I think the course is a fine, fair test of golf) but rather displeases my "eye". I can tell that the shape was taken out of the greens and bunkers by a single play, and the "old timey-ness" and classic feel were thusly pulled out.

This was accomplished by (seemingly on my one view around the property) "reesing" up the bunkers (sharpening up edges, taking out "wildness", deepening them), pushing up the greens, etc.

I have no problem with his lengthening of the course--but the greensites--which you can see originally were fantastic (post Lock/done by mackenzie) and this has been lost.

My take on it was that years of neglect and "average" club maintenance (and undoubtedly by the work of Robert Muir Graves!)  practices probably lost most of the mackenzie that was there anyhow--and this necessitated the re-do.

While I think it's a great option, and a place I could play (and would play) whenever, just that I think that the club's location/site and layout lend itself to a more "classic" approach.

Regarding the younger members wanting to toughen it up, I played unaccompanied the visit I had there, on a reciprocal, so I can't speak to that aspect of your query.

Jed



I don't think there was any Mackenzie left there after RMG in the early 1960's. Jed, I disagree with you about the course - it's one of my favorites - but more specifically that Rees did anything bad to it. I certainly don't think he took any Mackenzie out because I'm pretty sure there wasn't any Mackenzie left to remove as late as 1996. Somebody on this site has a picture of the 1960's version.

There was no MacKenzie left after the 1960's renovation.  One of the purposes of the 1996 renovation was to attract a USGA event and Rees was brought in to do that.  It resulted in the ill fated Women's 2002 Open fiasco.  That all being said, the current version of Lake Merced is a terrific, if not classic, golf course.  I was on the Green committee for my last 3 years at the club and there was a great deal of emphasis placed on firming the golf course up through fairway aeration.  The greens survived a nematode invasion that killed almost all of them about 6 years ago and my friends tell me they are thriving today.  One constant about Lake Merced is that it can play very tough, particularly on a windy day-just look at the scores in the afternoon rounds of the US Open Sectionals year after year, even with friendly pin locations.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 04, 2008, 08:22:05 AM
Jim,

El Caballero was indeed founded as a "Jewish club" albeit in 1957, a relative newcomer.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Brian Cenci on September 04, 2008, 08:25:14 AM
How is that Tam O'Shanter in the Detroit area?  I haven't had a chance to go play it but it looks interesting.

-Brian
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Phil McDade on September 04, 2008, 09:02:37 AM
Surprised no one's mentioned Skokie in Chicago. A Bendelow/Ross/Langford-Moreau that's good enough to merit a GCA write-up:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/skokie1.html
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 04, 2008, 09:18:46 AM
Surprised no one's mentioned Skokie in Chicago. A Bendelow/Ross/Langford-Moreau that's good enough to merit a GCA write-up:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/skokie1.html

A common misperception.  I don't think Skokie is considered a JC.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Matt Bosela on September 04, 2008, 10:05:43 AM
Oakdale G&CC in Toronto has a pretty interesting history.  Robert Thompson wrote a bit about it on his blog awhile back.

http://www.ontgolf.ca/g4g/2006/12/13/club-review-oakdale-in-december/
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tom Huckaby on September 04, 2008, 10:17:05 AM
Is El Caballero in Tarzana mostly Jewish? 

I have had no contact with that club since the 80s, but it sure was back then.  The Catholic HS I attended - Crespi - was about 1/2 mile from that course, but we never got to play it until we finally got a match against the local pubic school!

Great course, great club though.  That is where I caddied when I was a kid. 

TH
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: tlavin on September 04, 2008, 10:47:12 AM
Surprised no one's mentioned Skokie in Chicago. A Bendelow/Ross/Langford-Moreau that's good enough to merit a GCA write-up:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/skokie1.html

A common misperception.  I don't think Skokie is considered a JC.

Skokie is decidedly not a Jewish club.  In Chicago, there is a handful of clubs that fit this designation, or that used to fit it.  On the north, Lake Shore, Hillcrest and Twin Orchard are all considered Jewish clubs.  On the south, Ravisloe and Idlewild used to fit that definition, but demographic and economic changes on the south side have changed all that.  Truth is, the clubs on the south side can't afford to discriminate and as a result, those two clubs are like the U.N., which is not a bad thing, IMHO.  Just a fact of life.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jason Mandel on September 04, 2008, 10:50:47 AM
White Manor outside of Philadelphia started as a Jewish club, though it is about 50/50 today.

I also believe that Inwood on Long Island was originally a Jewish club, but is also more diversified today.

I believe Bala in Philadelphia would also qualify.

Jason
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jeff_Stettner on September 04, 2008, 10:59:13 AM
Meadowbrooke in St. Louis was also founded as a Jewish Club, although the membership is now about 50/50. Good course that was redesigned by Keith Foster a few years ago. 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: JSlonis on September 04, 2008, 11:05:31 AM
White Manor outside of Philadelphia started as a Jewish club, though it is about 50/50 today.

I also believe that Inwood on Long Island was originally a Jewish club, but is also more diversified today.

I believe Bala in Philadelphia would also qualify.

Jason

Add to that Philmont and Green Valley in the Philly area.

Mountain Ridge and Hollywood are the best examples in NJ and according to the first post in this thread, both are ranked much lower than they should be by Golf Digest.  If there are 13 better courses in NJ than Mountain Ridge, I'd eat my sand wedge. ;D
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tyler Kearns on September 04, 2008, 11:36:58 AM
Add Glendale in Winnipeg, Manitoba to the list (Stanley Thompson).

TK
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bruce Katona on September 04, 2008, 11:39:44 AM
Old Oaks in Westchester - I play there once or twice a year - great old course that may be helped by this weekends impending hurricaine.....the course could lose about 1,000 trees easily .....classic example of the greens committee planting trees in any and every open spot.....to the point where the fairways remain moist due to lack of sunlight.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike Golden on September 04, 2008, 12:12:52 PM
It would be a big mistake to not mention the course at Del Boca Vista, Phase 2, an original design of Morty Seinfeld and Cosmo Kramer.  It not only has an interesting version of the Biarritz but also holes such as a Capestein, Alpsberg, Redanowitz and the Schmear.  Interestingly enough, Caddies are referred to as 'Schleppers'-has anyone played there recently?


 ;D
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: JSlonis on September 04, 2008, 12:31:38 PM
It would be a big mistake to not mention the course at Del Boca Vista, Phase 2, an original design of Morty Seinfeld and Cosmo Kramer.  It not only has an interesting version of the Biarritz but also holes such as a Capestein, Alpsberg, Redanowitz and the Schmear.  Interestingly enough, Caddies are referred to as 'Schleppers'-has anyone played there recently?


 ;D

Not to mention...the politics at Del Boca Vista make McCain/Obama look like childs play.  ;)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Peter Pratt on September 04, 2008, 12:35:36 PM
Brian,

I haven't played Tam O'Shanter in many years, but it has some terrific par fours on its back side. PGA paragon and rules guru Warren Orlick was the long-time head pro there.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jed Peters on September 04, 2008, 01:19:14 PM

I don't think there was any Mackenzie left there after RMG in the early 1960's. Jed, I disagree with you about the course - it's one of my favorites - but more specifically that Rees did anything bad to it. I certainly don't think he took any Mackenzie out because I'm pretty sure there wasn't any Mackenzie left to remove as late as 1996. Somebody on this site has a picture of the 1960's version.

Matt:

You're probably right, sas I say in my post. There probably wasn't much (if any) influence left.

But that doesn't mean the course doesn't fit my eye, or I don't see what "could be" out there.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Phil Benedict on September 04, 2008, 01:24:50 PM
Quaker Ridge hosted the Walker Cup and Century and Old Oaks are regular sites for US Open qualifying.  They must have members from other denominations/ethnic groups, right?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike Golden on September 04, 2008, 01:48:31 PM

I don't think there was any Mackenzie left there after RMG in the early 1960's. Jed, I disagree with you about the course - it's one of my favorites - but more specifically that Rees did anything bad to it. I certainly don't think he took any Mackenzie out because I'm pretty sure there wasn't any Mackenzie left to remove as late as 1996. Somebody on this site has a picture of the 1960's version.

Matt:

You're probably right, sas I say in my post. There probably wasn't much (if any) influence left.

But that doesn't mean the course doesn't fit my eye, or I don't see what "could be" out there.

you mean like this-

(http://www.flhealthquotes.net/Lake%20Merced%20classic.jpg)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Rich Goodale on September 04, 2008, 01:52:35 PM
How is that Tam O'Shanter in the Detroit area?  I haven't had a chance to go play it but it looks interesting.

-Brian

I understand that Tam O'Shanter once had Tommy Armour as the touring pro and Archie Simpson as the resident pro.  That's a two-ball which would be hard to beat.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jed Peters on September 04, 2008, 02:29:05 PM
Now Mike Golden's photo shows EXACTLY what i'd like to see out there!
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tim Nugent on September 04, 2008, 04:24:55 PM
Terry Lavin, in the North Subs of Chi-town you forgot about Northmoor - surrised no Rossies caught that!
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: PCCraig on September 04, 2008, 04:41:26 PM
I played an event at Northmoor a few years back...fast greens and the renovation they did made it an OK course.

I cannot fathom why so many people on here enjoy Briarwood so much. When I played there I thought it was a nice course and club, but perhaps I missed the gist of the course?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: JohnV on September 04, 2008, 05:00:25 PM
In addition to the previously mentioned Green Oaks in Pittsburgh (Verona actually), which is a Donald Ross, there is Westmoreland which is a 27 hole facility in Export, east of the city.  Dick Wilson did part of it and I believe it was Joe Finger who did the other, but I'm working from a weak memory.

Green Oaks was known as Westmoreland before a group of members split off and founded it in the 1960s.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: SL_Solow on September 04, 2008, 05:08:11 PM
I guess its time for me to weigh in with respect to the Chicago area.  Barney, I'm glad you enjoyed your day at Briarwood; I couldn't find the link on your post.  
Part of my motivation is to correct the misperceptions set out by J. Winick.  As noted, you don't have any historical perspective about Chicago.  As such, your statements are inaccurate.  For many years Chicago clubs were almost exclusively divided into "restricted" (non Jewish) and preponderantly Jewish clubs.  Jews were not welcome as members (and in some instances) as guests in most clubs.  As a result Jews formed their own clubs.  In the south suburbs, Ravisloe and Idlewild were formed in the first decade of the 20th century.  On the North Shore, Lake Shore was built at about the same time and Northmoor came in the late teens.  Bryn Mawr, an in city club was formed in the early 20's. Green Acres was built in the late 20's. Later on Twin Orchards acquired its courses in Long Grove.  Briarwood was formed in 1958 and purchased its Colt and Alison course (built in 1921) in 1964.  Hillcrest was formed in the 1960s.  Ravinia Green is also of relatively recent vintage.

There were a few mixed clubs but they generally were not equity clubs.  The most famous was George S. May's Tam O' Shanter.

Two factors have led to a lessening of "restrictions."  The first is the advent of housing development related clubs.  Those who buy homes, regardless of faith or other classifications generally can join.

The second is economics.  Many older wonderful clubs located in areas which are no longer economically desireable found it necessary to admit members who previously they would not have considered because the pool of available members was diminishing.  To the best of my knowledge, this started in the early 1980's at Beverly.  More recently Olympia Fields, which had always been extremely restricted has opened up.  Other clubs have admitted less than a handful of Jewish members while the majority remain as they were.

As for the Jewish clubs, those in the south suburbs are hurting economically and are open to all while retaining a significant Jewish population attributable in large measure to long time members.  The north side may be slightly "overclubbed" and it is possible that a couple could fail in the forseeable future.
As for the caliber of the golf, it varies.  I am too prejudiced to talk about Briarwood but it is very solid.  Some very good holes on most of the courses but nothing in the "top 100" range.

Finally, who ever had Skokie as a Jewish club had it 100% backwards although I believe there may be less than a handful of Jewish members now.  It is a wonderful golf course.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Kavanaugh on September 04, 2008, 05:21:09 PM
SL,

The link http://tinyurl.com/5neh6t is simply to the Briarwood web page under the guest section.  http://briarwoodcountryclub.com/fw/main/Club_History-5.html
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: archie_struthers on September 04, 2008, 06:13:31 PM



WOODCREST and LINWOOD in south Jersey

more in Philly
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike Golden on September 04, 2008, 07:37:12 PM
Now Mike Golden's photo shows EXACTLY what i'd like to see out there!

Jed, so would a number of knowledgeable members but that golf course is gone forever, a victim of I-280, eminent domain, and the members from the 1960's who didn't fully appreciate the historical significance of the golf course.  Had the renovation taken place 5-7 years later, after some of the work at Pasatiempo and the Meadow Club had been started, it might have been different as this other work brought MacKenzie's legacy to the forefront in NorCal.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike Golden on September 04, 2008, 07:46:39 PM
Bob,

It's not so much as to what he did there that displeases me (I think the course is a fine, fair test of golf) but rather displeases my "eye". I can tell that the shape was taken out of the greens and bunkers by a single play, and the "old timey-ness" and classic feel were thusly pulled out.

This was accomplished by (seemingly on my one view around the property) "reesing" up the bunkers (sharpening up edges, taking out "wildness", deepening them), pushing up the greens, etc.

I have no problem with his lengthening of the course--but the greensites--which you can see originally were fantastic (post Lock/done by mackenzie) and this has been lost.

My take on it was that years of neglect and "average" club maintenance (and undoubtedly by the work of Robert Muir Graves!)  practices probably lost most of the mackenzie that was there anyhow--and this necessitated the re-do.

While I think it's a great option, and a place I could play (and would play) whenever, just that I think that the club's location/site and layout lend itself to a more "classic" approach.

Regarding the younger members wanting to toughen it up, I played unaccompanied the visit I had there, on a reciprocal, so I can't speak to that aspect of your query.

Jed

Jed, the greens and bunkers were totallly changed from MacKenzie to very basic shapes by Bob Graves in the 1960's renovation.  I'll never know why he rerouted so much of the golf course when at least 13 of the original holes could have been left in place-it could have been the club wanting like that or it could have just been his vision-it was his first solo project.  I can tell you that the Rees construction project was all done first rate-I had Pete Galea at the club (who is an expert at this) and he noted how well the green surrounds were done and the care taken to make sure that the greens would last a very long time.  You can't really develop a true appreciation for the golf course on one play, there are many subleties that get overlooked on the first play.

Bob, it was definitely the younger, lower handicap players who wanted the course tougher although the post-60's course was apparently pretty difficult in it's own right, with very small greens that required very delicate touch on chip shots around the greens.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 05, 2008, 08:05:14 AM
I concur with SL Solow's economic analysis on the changes taking place within "historically Jewish clubs" and all clubs in Chicago with respect to membership policies. This phenomenon is happening throughout the country. After all, a club is a business.

Nevertheless, the main thrust of my thread is the golf courses of these clubs. There are many built in the "Golden Age" and designed by the likes of Ross, Tillinghast, Flynn,Park and others. I think JWinick's comment as to the quality of the courses is way off base as evidenced by the national rankings.

Let's hear more on the courses.

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Dan Herrmann on September 05, 2008, 08:19:06 AM
Steve,
JWinick may be on to something about the quality of land that many of the courses built on.  Thinking of the course Ronald M mentioned, Woodcrest in Buffalo, he's right.

This course is built on pretty bad land.  It's very flat and devoid of interest.  If I recall correctly, it's also land that's subject to occasional flooding.   The course is quite good for the land it's on, though.   (Good enough that I used to sneak on during Monday caddy days!)

Compare that to Park and CCB about 5 miles to the east along Sheridan Drive.  These courses have great land and are better courses.

The "Other" Woodcrest that I know, in Southern NJ, isn't really that far from Pine Valley.  This land has good movement, but it's certainly not as good as PV.   But, as I've said before, there's a helluva golf course there hidden under all those trees!

I think that JWinick was only suggesting that these clubs were challenged because they didn't have the ability to get the best ground way back then.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 05, 2008, 08:35:35 AM
Dan,

I think the quality of the land is a function of when the club was founded.  Many of the clubs in question were founded pre WWI- Century in 1895, Philmont in 1906, etc.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: bill_k on September 05, 2008, 10:08:26 AM
There are probably scores of predominantly Jewish clubs in South Florida-with almost all of them being on flat, uninteresting terrain. However, one of my favorite courses in the entire state regardless of affiliation is Banyan Golf Club. They might have just recently gotten around to getting a handful of gentiles in there...many of the members also belong to Palm Beach CC and there was some tension for years with the Eveglades Club.
The golf course is a lot of fun. There are quite a few subtle elevation changes and it possesses a superb routing, especially considering the small parcel of land it sits on. It is golf only, with no swimming pool and two tennis courts that rarely get used. Its a little short by today's standard (maybe 6700 from the tips) but hands down the best Joe Lee course I have ever played. A minor hidden Florida gem IMHO. Morgan Pressel has been a member there for years.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 05, 2008, 11:51:25 AM
A club similar to Banyan in SE FL is The Falls Club that also has a Joe Lee course.

Of course, Palm Beach CC is another.


Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: JWinick on September 05, 2008, 07:12:38 PM

If you read my post, I was making a comparison between my experience playing golf in the NY-area versus Chicago.  And, I would point out that I am a member of the tribe and can speak intelligently on Jewish clubs versus non-Jewish clubs.   It is inarguable that there is more discrimination in the NY-area than the Chicago-area.   

I don't pretend to me a historian.   

I guess its time for me to weigh in with respect to the Chicago area.  Barney, I'm glad you enjoyed your day at Briarwood; I couldn't find the link on your post.  
Part of my motivation is to correct the misperceptions set out by J. Winick.  As noted, you don't have any historical perspective about Chicago.  As such, your statements are inaccurate.  For many years Chicago clubs were almost exclusively divided into "restricted" (non Jewish) and preponderantly Jewish clubs.  Jews were not welcome as members (and in some instances) as guests in most clubs.  As a result Jews formed their own clubs.  In the south suburbs, Ravisloe and Idlewild were formed in the first decade of the 20th century.  On the North Shore, Lake Shore was built at about the same time and Northmoor came in the late teens.  Bryn Mawr, an in city club was formed in the early 20's. Green Acres was built in the late 20's. Later on Twin Orchards acquired its courses in Long Grove.  Briarwood was formed in 1958 and purchased its Colt and Alison course (built in 1921) in 1958.  Hillcrest was formed in the 1960s.  Ravinia Green is also of relatively recent vintage.

There were a few mixed clubs but they generally were not equity clubs.  The most famous was George S. May's Tam O' Shanter.

Two factors have led to a lessening of "restrictions."  The first is the advent of housing development related clubs.  Those who buy homes, regardless of faith or other classifications generally can join.

The second is economics.  Many older wonderful clubs located in areas which are no longer economically desireable found it necessary to admit members who Previously they would not have considered because the pool of available members was diminishing.  To the best of my knowledge, this started in the early 1980's at Beverly.  More recently Olympia Fields, which had always been extremely restricted has opened up.  Other clubs have admitted less than a handful of Jewish members while the majority remain as they were.

As for the Jewish clubs, those in the south suburbs are hurting economically and are open to all while retaining a significant Jewish population attributable in large measure to long time members.  The north side may be slightly "overclubbed" and it is possible that a couple could fail in the forseeable future.
As for the caliber of the golf, it varies.  I am too prejudiced to talk about Briarwood but it is very solid.  Some very good holes on most of the courses but nothing in the "top 100" range.

Finally, who ever had Skokie as a Jewish club had it 100% backwards although I believe there may be less than a handful of Jewish members now.  It is a wonderful golf course.

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: JWinick on September 05, 2008, 07:21:02 PM
Steve:

Way off base?  If the clubs that would not admit Jews were formed first, would they not have the first choice of land?   It does not mean that Jewish clubs are on bad land.  It just means that in some markets, the non-Jewish clubs were formed first and took some of the choicest properties.  Look at Long Island.   The best Jewish club on Long Island is probably Fresh Meadow.   Yet, Long Island has probably 10 golf courses better than Fresh Meadow.   

My other point was, quite frankly, that many Jewish clubs are more country clubs than golf clubs.  Things like the clubhouse, food, and other amenities are often better than non-Jewish clubs.  However, the golf courses are often neglected relatively.   

As for rankings, I'm not slamming Quaker Ridge, Fenway, or any other great Jewish clubs. 


I concur with SL Solow's economic analysis on the changes taking place within "historically Jewish clubs" and all clubs in Chicago with respect to membership policies. This phenomenon is happening throughout the country. After all, a club is a business.

Nevertheless, the main thrust of my thread is the golf courses of these clubs. There are many built in the "Golden Age" and designed by the likes of Ross, Tillinghast, Flynn,Park and others. I think JWinick's comment as to the quality of the courses is way off base as evidenced by the national rankings.

Let's hear more on the courses.


Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jed Peters on September 06, 2008, 01:34:59 AM
Jed

Jed, the greens and bunkers were totallly changed from MacKenzie to very basic shapes by Bob Graves in the 1960's renovation.  I'll never know why he rerouted so much of the golf course when at least 13 of the original holes could have been left in place-it could have been the club wanting like that or it could have just been his vision-it was his first solo project.  I can tell you that the Rees construction project was all done first rate-I had Pete Galea at the club (who is an expert at this) and he noted how well the green surrounds were done and the care taken to make sure that the greens would last a very long time.  You can't really develop a true appreciation for the golf course on one play, there are many subleties that get overlooked on the first play.

Bob, it was definitely the younger, lower handicap players who wanted the course tougher although the post-60's course was apparently pretty difficult in it's own right, with very small greens that required very delicate touch on chip shots around the greens.

Thanks Mike for your awesome response.

I really loved my round around there, and would welcome (warmly) any excuse to see your fine club again. I thought it was a great test of golf in a great city. I could only imagine what "might have been" based on your photo--whoa!

Basically, I think I need to get there again to give it a fair and complete shake--see the course really for what it is, not what it WAS (and can't be any more due to the reasons you state.)

Best,

Jed
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Matt_Cohn on September 06, 2008, 01:43:11 AM
Now Mike Golden's photo shows EXACTLY what i'd like to see out there!

So, there's this golf course across the street...    ;D
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Pat Burke on September 07, 2008, 02:50:43 AM
It would be a big mistake to not mention the course at Del Boca Vista, Phase 2, an original design of Morty Seinfeld and Cosmo Kramer.  It not only has an interesting version of the Biarritz but also holes such as a Capestein, Alpsberg, Redanowitz and the Schmear.  Interestingly enough, Caddies are referred to as 'Schleppers'-has anyone played there recently?


 ;D

Didn't Cosmo make a hole in one off the coast of del boca?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 07, 2008, 08:33:29 AM
Pat,

No, Kramer's "hole in one" was not at Del Boca Vista but rather at Rockaway beach:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzZS2hwAuD8
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tim Leahy on September 08, 2008, 01:24:54 PM
I used to caddy at Brentwood in LA on weekends in the 80's and I thought it was interesting that Ernie Banks(let's play two) was a member there.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Gerry B on September 08, 2008, 07:06:38 PM
the suburban club outside baltimore (pikesville, md)- i was told that it is one of the oldest jewish clubs in the us - founded in 1895 - golf course at the latest opened in 1900.  tillinghast is credited as the architect - must have been a major re design.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Michael J. Moss on September 11, 2008, 12:41:06 PM
Sunningdale CC in Scarsdale, NY was originally designed by Seth Raynor (opened for play, 1918). 

Full disclosure: the membership either did not like or understand "the greatest holes of the British Isles" concept and brought in Walter Travis soon thereafter.

...a bit sad.

Does anyone know if Raynor built any other golf course at clubs that were predominantly Jewish?

Calling Uncle George !
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 11, 2008, 05:27:55 PM
Michael,

Thanks for posting about Sunningdale, one of the more important clubs of this genre.

Sunningdale was founded in 1913 and acquired the second home of Siwanoy, a 9 holer designed by Willie Dunn. The club later moved to their present location to build their 18 hole course designed by Raynor. I presume Tillinghast did his work after Travis.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: ChipOat on September 11, 2008, 07:10:56 PM
O don't know what Inwood was or is re: its membership, but the golf course is decidedly a hidden gem.

It's been mentioned before on GCA by those of us who know it (had its own thread a while back and merited an Aerial of the Day, as well), but it's always worth another promo, IMO.

A Herbert Strong original (I think Tom Doak did the restoration), Brad Klein caddied there as a teenager and knows it well.

I don't know how to find the link to the thread or the AOD, but they're both worth seeing if someone can resurrect them.

Engineers has also had a thread and an AOD; also a Herbert Strong.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 12, 2008, 02:13:31 PM
I understand Mike DeVries is doing some work at Sunningdale.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Michael J. Moss on September 12, 2008, 03:36:28 PM
As we speak, Mike DeVries and (Grandpa) Joe Hancock, along with those fine gentlemen from Hawk Shaw, are building - actually reestablishing - an "Alps" hole green down in a hollow behind our existing 6th green. Our 6th hole, which was 395 yards in 1923, and which plays 370 yards today, will be a stout 440 yards when finished.

Sunningdale's golf culture is such that our members are chomping at the bit to launch 3-irons towards a visually obscured green!  ;D  :'(   

...and if our members don't get it, at least you guys will! (I think they will, by the way.)

Mike will be renovating holes 4- 8 at Sunningdale this fall, with our 5th,  6th and 8th greens essentially being rebuilt from scratch.

The irigation work is being done by Tanto Irrigation - Bill Bertels.

Very exciting indeed!
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike Sweeney on September 12, 2008, 04:49:45 PM

Mike will be renovating holes 4- 8 at Sunningdale this fall, with our 5th,  6th and 8th greens essentially being rebuilt from scratch.


Mike,

Why specifically these holes and not others? I don't know the course. Are those Raynor or Tilly holes? Sounds like a similar situation to Sleepy Hollow before the recent work there?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Michael J. Moss on September 13, 2008, 11:47:28 AM
Mike,

The routing we play today is still pretty much Raynor's. Our 12th hole (drop-shot, par-3) was built by Tillinghast to accomodate out pool, but at the expense of the reverse Redan, which was combined with the old 18th to make room (also done by AWT). Make sense?

We're doing those holes because of their proximity to one another. This is year two of our renovation. The balance will take place over the next two (all else being equal!).

Sleepy's was done in two years, I believe. But our decision to use Hawk Shaw was based, at least in part, on their Green Chair's very positive comments.


Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on July 15, 2009, 09:30:14 PM
Bump

Having recently played Sunningdale, I will agree that the work done by DeVries is outstanding and that the course should get more attention from raters.

Interesting question: Was Atlantic GC in the Hamptons the last of the clubs of this genre?

Any more additions to this list? How about Oakwood(Ross,1905?) in Cleveland? www.oakwoodclub.org


Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jason Walker on July 15, 2009, 09:55:26 PM
Steve-

Just curious--since this thread made its way back...

Why would Meadowbrook be included here?  My father was a member there back in the early 80's, don't recall anything solid/spectacular about the place.  And to further my reminiscing, I believe I finished T-3 in 1984 in the 11-under in some sort of state tournament there (can't remember the name).


Bill,

Alpine is one of those clubs that was not founded as "Jewish club" but should have been included in my NJ listings.

Other clubs on the list are:

Brynwood in Milwaukee
Highland in Omaha
Meadowbrook in Tulsa

and more...
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Dan Herrmann on July 15, 2009, 10:04:47 PM
Did Inwood really have concerts by famous singers?  If so, wow - what a different era.

I loved the Jewish club in my hometown (this club was in Amherst NY) - I used to sneak on during "caddy days" ;)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on July 15, 2009, 11:17:14 PM
Jason,

It is my understanding that Meadowbrook in Tulsa was founded as a "Jewish club" around 1960:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_5_53/ai_84454555/
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jason Walker on July 15, 2009, 11:28:57 PM
Steve-
Wow...what a great article!  Just goes to show you that as a young child (for me, 7-12) you just don't pay attention to that stuff.  In fact, still don't, but having really grown up in Atlanta and spent my post-college years in Philly (and dated a failry prominent Jewish girl) I've been fascinated by the cultural history of both areas.  My family moved to Tulsa in 1980 and moved to Atlanta in 1985....never had a clue about the background at Meadowbrook...Just knew I liked the golf course and loved the pool as a young kid.

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on July 15, 2009, 11:42:44 PM
Jason,

Jay Friedman, mentioned in the article as a child prodigy, was the long time pro at Meadowlands in suburban Philadelpha until about 5 years ago. His son played at U of Arizona and was on some mini tours.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jason Walker on July 15, 2009, 11:52:57 PM
Good stuff...familiar with Meadowlands as said Jewish girl's family from my earlier post were members there.  Even better, I love this quote from Jay Friedman: 

22 or 23 years old, I wanted to go to bars, meet women, have a good time."It's not that I didn't practice or work at the game. It's just that I wasn't mentally prepared. I didn't pursue it the way I should have.

Could apply to just about every male in the US in some form or fashion!

As an outsider to this area (moved to Philly in 1999, Haddonfield in 2007) I've been absolutely fascinated with the cultural evolution here....something new to a guy from south!  The term 'historically Jewish club" had zero meaning to me, even though I was , growing up, very familiar with the Standard Club in ATL....just never occurred to me I guess?



Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on July 15, 2009, 11:58:08 PM
Jason,

Take a look at The Standard Club's history:

https://standardclub.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=54996
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: SPDB on July 16, 2009, 12:08:26 AM
I think Fenway Golf Club should be included in this list.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jason Walker on July 16, 2009, 12:14:08 AM
Steve-
Good stuff--was pretty familiar already since but definitely a good read.  When I was a kid working at the ATL Athletic Club and Golf Club of GA considering a career in the golf biz we would jump over and play the course from time to time.  As I mentioned, it's really been fascinating for me to learn about a lot of the histories of clubs both in ATL and PHL as there is so much there.  As sad as it is, when i was in ATL it was essentially black or white and that was it--and I think thankfully that has changed considerably since then. 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bradley Anderson on July 16, 2009, 12:36:23 AM
For what it is worth, I worked out a history of greenkeepers in the Chicago market, and of the six greenkeepers to work more than 40 years at one club, four were from the Jewish clubs. I might also add that those clubs were among the best clubs when you consider the quality of the golf experience.

 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jim Carrigan on July 16, 2009, 11:19:04 AM
From what I understand Wellshire Golf Course (Denver muni / Ross 1926) was originally a private Jewish club.

http://www.cityofdenvergolf.com/wellshire.htm (http://www.cityofdenvergolf.com/wellshire.htm)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on July 16, 2009, 04:14:14 PM
Speaking of Denver, I previously mentioned Green Gables CC. Any one have any comments about this Arthur Hills course?

www.greengablescc.org


Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jaeger Kovich on July 16, 2009, 06:52:18 PM
I just played Shackmaxon today... this one belongs on the list.

Also: Century (I heard a story about how it was founded by 100 jews who couldn't get into one of the neighboring clubs!) and Atlantic
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on July 16, 2009, 08:34:41 PM
Jaeger,

Century was the first such club, Shackamaxon was not founded as a "Jewish club" but evolved into one as have others mentioned in this thread such as Engineers and Seawane and I'm still waiting for confirmation on Atlantic. All of these clubs have been mentioned in prior posts in this thread.

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jim Nugent on July 17, 2009, 01:35:11 AM
I think Meadowbrook Country Club in the St. Louis suburbs used to be Jewish. 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on November 19, 2009, 05:29:42 PM
After playing Quaker Ridge in early October and notwithstanding its recent drop in GD's rankings, it is obviously still number one on this list of courses.

I haven't received any info about whether Atlantic belongs on this list.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Alex Miller on November 19, 2009, 06:30:53 PM
edit
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci_Jr on November 19, 2009, 11:30:23 PM
Lake Merced Country Club in San Francisco, CA is one of note as well--but was hacked by Rees Jones' firm (IMHO).

I do need to play it again, however....

That being said, I would have loved to play the Mackenzie routing/design back in the 30s and 40s....

Jed,

What is it that Rees Jones did that displeases you?

What was his remit? Did he ignore the requests of his clients? As I have heard, it was  some of the younger members of the club that decided to toughen it up. Do tell me if I am wrong.

Bob

Bob,

It's not so much as to what he did there that displeases me (I think the course is a fine, fair test of golf) but rather displeases my "eye". I can tell that the shape was taken out of the greens and bunkers by a single play, and the "old timey-ness" and classic feel were thusly pulled out.

This was accomplished by (seemingly on my one view around the property) "reesing" up the bunkers (sharpening up edges, taking out "wildness", deepening them), pushing up the greens, etc.

Jed, I'm puzzled by something.
If you only saw the course once, after Rees's work, how do you know what existed, architecturally, prior to Rees's work, and how  then can you make a post-Rees qualitative analysis ?
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I have no problem with his lengthening of the course--but the greensites--which you can see originally were fantastic (post Lock/done by mackenzie) and this has been lost.

How can you see MacKenzie's original work, or anyone's work, subsequent to Rees's work ?
[/size]

My take on it was that years of neglect and "average" club maintenance (and undoubtedly by the work of Robert Muir Graves!)  practices probably lost most of the mackenzie that was there anyhow--and this necessitated the re-do.

If "most" of MacKenzie's work was "lost" prior to Rees's work, why blame Rees, and if it was lost, why do you say, two paragraphs above, "which you can see originally were fantastic"  How could you see the original work, if as you say, most of it was lost prior to Rees's work ?

You're contradicting yourself !
[/size]

While I think it's a great option, and a place I could play (and would play) whenever, just that I think that the club's location/site and layout lend itself to a more "classic" approach.

Then how did MacKenzie's work get altered and lost prior to Rees's arrival ?
[/size]

Regarding the younger members wanting to toughen it up, I played unaccompanied the visit I had there, on a reciprocal, so I can't speak to that aspect of your query.

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Joel Zuckerman on November 20, 2009, 09:56:38 AM
I don't know if this club has been mentioned previously in this thread, but the Geoff Cornish--designed Crestview Country Club in Agawam, MA (a suburb of Springfield) was 100% Jewish at inception.  Now it's more like 25---35%.  The course is pleasant, nothing fantastic, and served as the home of an LPGA event for 3 years in the middle '90s.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jud_T on November 20, 2009, 10:17:17 AM
Don't know if it's been discussed here but Green Acres in Chicago is actually the lost Tillinghast Illinois Golf Club that went under in the depression. See attached:

http://www.tillinghast.net/cms/node/268

While the course is very hemmed in and needs a serious tree removal program, it does boast some of the best conditioned greens and bunkers in the area...
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: PCCraig on November 21, 2009, 06:57:24 AM
Don't know if it's been discussed here but Green Acres in Chicago is actually the lost Tillinghast Illinois Golf Club that went under in the depression. See attached:

http://www.tillinghast.net/cms/node/268

While the course is very hemmed in and needs a serious tree removal program, it does boast some of the best conditioned greens and bunkers in the area...

I think I knew that Green Acres used to be Illinois Golf Club...but I always thought that it was designed by Joseph Roseman. Perhaps it was only visited by Tillinghast on his cross-country club tour?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Phil_the_Author on November 21, 2009, 10:13:25 AM
Pat & Jud,

Tilly designed the Illinois Golf Club in the early 1920's. He lists it in a 1925 advertising brochure as an 18-hole original design. He also wrote about meeting up with the "Farmer who sold his property to the club. He was an elderly man and apparently used to following the plough all his life... 'I suppose you will take up golf when the course is opened' I said half-jokingly... 'You never can tell' he replied not joking at all... That is right. You never can tell!"

In addition, Tilly didn't stop in on the course during his PGA tour.

On October 8, 1943 the club was sold at auction "for $90,250 to a syndicate of 60 persons who will operate it as a private country club with a limited membership of 150. Alexander T. Spare was attorney for the group. The sale was held at the State Bank..."
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on September 28, 2010, 08:43:34 AM
After the Mountain Ridge event yesterday, I'd expect this Ross restored gem will move up into the top 100 Golfweek Classic list.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Gerry B on October 01, 2010, 01:42:16 AM
i was also told that suburban in baltimore is the oldest jewish club in the us
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on October 01, 2010, 11:03:19 AM
Gerry B

It is generally regarded that Century in NY is the first club of this genre. See Stephen Birmingham's book- "Our Crowd."

Nevertheless, this thread is about golf courses.

I would expect Mountain Ridge to ascend in the Golfweek rankings.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 17, 2014, 11:59:22 AM
4 years later....from GW's Top 100 Classic

35. Quaker Ridge
71. Franklin Hills
80. Fenway
94. Mountain Ridge

From GW's Next 100 Classic
121. Engineers
164. Century
171. Paramount formerly Dellwood
181. Alpine
187. North Shore LI
199. Peninsula?

Did I miss any in these rankings?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: David_Tepper on April 17, 2014, 01:18:56 PM
Lake Merced, which has hosted both the USGA Junior Boys & Girls and the California State Amateur, is hosting the LPGA "Swinging Skirts" tournament next week
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on April 17, 2014, 01:25:30 PM
Lake Merced Country Club in San Francisco, CA is one of note as well--but was hacked by Rees Jones' firm (IMHO).

I do need to play it again, however....

That being said, I would have loved to play the Mackenzie routing/design back in the 30s and 40s....

I had a friend who was a member for years, and I usually sent holiday greetings either generic or Jewish themed.  One year he told me "Hey Dumbass, I'm not Jewish, I just joined there because the food was good!"
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bob_Huntley on April 17, 2014, 01:28:44 PM
4 years later....from GW's Top 100 Classic

35. Quaker Ridge
71. Franklin Hills
80. Fenway
94. Mountain Ridge

From GW's Next 100 Classic
121. Engineers
164. Century
171. Paramount formerly Dellwood
181. Alpine
187. North Shore LI
199. Peninsula?

Did I miss any in these rankings?


Steve,

Are any of the clubs single gender?

Bob
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 17, 2014, 01:32:54 PM
Bob,

I am not aware of any single gender clubs of this category.


Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Adam Warren on April 17, 2014, 01:36:55 PM
Haven't looked at the entire thread, and haven't played the course, but here in the Louisville metro area there is one "historically Jewish club."  Standard Country Club has been dying a slow death.  It was recently purchased by one of the Jewish orgainizations in the city and is renamed to the Standard Club.  There has been mention of shutting down clubhouse operations and only operating the golf course and pro shop.  I have heard its a nice course, but haven't and probably won't ever make it out there.  Maybe it will be public before they eventually decide to shut the doors.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Carl Nichols on April 17, 2014, 01:47:47 PM
In DC, Woodmont is a historically Jewish club -- and, to my knowledge, remains predominantly Jewish.  I haven't played either of their courses; they do host a US Open qualifier every year. 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Nigel Islam on April 17, 2014, 01:55:51 PM
Haven't looked at the entire thread, and haven't played the course, but here in the Louisville metro area there is one "historically Jewish club."  Standard Country Club has been dying a slow death.  It was recently purchased by one of the Jewish orgainizations in the city and is renamed to the Standard Club.  There has been mention of shutting down clubhouse operations and only operating the golf course and pro shop.  I have heard its a nice course, but haven't and probably won't ever make it out there.  Maybe it will be public before they eventually decide to shut the doors.

Adam SCC used to be located at the old River Run CC until 1950s. River Run was of course the original site of LCC and is now itself defunct.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 17, 2014, 01:58:37 PM
Sale of Louisville's Standard CC:

http://www.golfincmagazine.com/content/standard-cc-louisville-sold-47m
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Nigel Islam on April 17, 2014, 01:59:05 PM
In Evansville, Clearcrest Pines was once the Jewish country club, but it is now open to the public and actually hosts a lot of the Japanese workers at the local Toyota plant to the point there is dual signage in the clubhouse- one in English and another in Japanese.  
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Sean_A on April 17, 2014, 08:22:17 PM
After teething problems at an earlier site in Redford (Redford CC), it is thought the club insisted Ross invest more personal time on the Franklin Hills project. Among the Jewish community, Franklin Hills is well known because the club is a direct descendant of the Phoenix Club which was a Jewish social club established in 1872.  By 1905 the club was on its third city premises and desired to have a country club to compliment its city club.  Thus Redford CC (later a city of Detroit municipal called Rogell then privately owned as New Rogell and now closed) was born as a 9 holer designed by Tom Bendelow.  Not ten years later, in 1924ish, Donald Ross was hired to build nine additional holes and convert the sand greens to grass greens.  It was quickly realized that the land hard on the Rouge River was unsuitable for ideal golf (the drainage issues were never resolved).  Additionally, long closed Edgewater (amusement) Park was slated to be opened directly across the street from Redford CC, thus spoiling the country appeal of the club.  Consequently, a new site in Franklin, some 20 miles northwest of Detroit, was selected as optimal land to build Franklin Hills, which was to open in 1927. While vibrant, Frankiln Hills is tucked away in a secluded area and many Detroiters don't know of its existence. 

Ciao
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: archie_struthers on April 17, 2014, 10:18:45 PM
Historically Jewish clubs in the Philadelphia area

Philmont / Philly

Woodcrest / South  Jersey

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Sam Morrow on April 17, 2014, 11:54:45 PM
Historically Jewish clubs in the Philadelphia area

Philmont / Philly

Woodcrest / South  Jersey



Was Huntingdon Valley ever predominately Jewish? I know at one time the neighborhood had a healthy Jewish population. 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 18, 2014, 12:04:07 AM
Sam,

HV is far from being or having been a Jewish club.  Philmont and Ashbourne NLE are/were the Jewish clubs in that area.

Archie,

Philmont is not the only Jewish cliub on the other side of the Delaware River.  Green Valley, White Manor, Radnor Valley, Meadowlands, Warrington NLE and Ashbourne NLE are/were the others in the Philly 'burbs. Locust Valley in Allentown, Berkleigh near Reading and Brandywine in Wilmington are/were others.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Sam Morrow on April 18, 2014, 12:07:12 AM
Sam,

HV is far from being or having been a Jewish club.  Philmont and Ashbourne NLE are/were the Jewish clubs in that area.

Archie,

Philmont is not the only Jewish cliub on the other side of the Delaware River.  Green Valley, White Manor, Radnor Valley, Meadowlands, Warrington NLE and Ashbourne NLE are/were the others in the Philly 'burbs. Loscust Valley in Allentown, Berkleigh near Reading and Brandywine in Wilmington are/were others.

Thanks Steve. Talking to family in that area they lived for many years in the HV area and said there was a very large Jewish population but none of my relatives up there play.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Adam Warren on April 18, 2014, 08:10:44 AM
Haven't looked at the entire thread, and haven't played the course, but here in the Louisville metro area there is one "historically Jewish club."  Standard Country Club has been dying a slow death.  It was recently purchased by one of the Jewish orgainizations in the city and is renamed to the Standard Club.  There has been mention of shutting down clubhouse operations and only operating the golf course and pro shop.  I have heard its a nice course, but haven't and probably won't ever make it out there.  Maybe it will be public before they eventually decide to shut the doors.

Adam SCC used to be located at the old River Run CC until 1950s. River Run was of course the original site of LCC and is now itself defunct.
Are you referring to the little course that is at the corner of River Road and Zorn Ave. and is now a dog park/walking park/cross country park?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike Schott on April 18, 2014, 02:23:19 PM
After teething problems at an earlier site in Redford (Redford CC), it is thought the club insisted Ross invest more personal time on the Franklin Hills project. Among the Jewish community, Franklin Hills is well known because the club is a direct descendant of the Phoenix Club which was a Jewish social club established in 1872.  By 1905 the club was on its third city premises and desired to have a country club to compliment its city club.  Thus Redford CC (later a city of Detroit municipal called Rogell then privately owned as New Rogell and now closed) was born as a 9 holer designed by Tom Bendelow.  Not ten years later, in 1924ish, Donald Ross was hired to build nine additional holes and convert the sand greens to grass greens.  It was quickly realized that the land hard on the Rouge River was unsuitable for ideal golf (the drainage issues were never resolved).  Additionally, long closed Edgewater (amusement) Park was slated to be opened directly across the street from Redford CC, thus spoiling the country appeal of the club.  Consequently, a new site in Franklin, some 20 miles northwest of Detroit, was selected as optimal land to build Franklin Hills, which was to open in 1927. While vibrant, Frankiln Hills is tucked away in a secluded area and many Detroiters don't know of its existence. 

Ciao

Not all that secluded. FH is off of two fairly busy main roads, Inkster and 13 Mile Rd so thousands of cars drive past it daily. The club is certainly low key but you can see much of the course from Inkster Rd and the entrance off of that road. But I'm sure that most Detroiter's haven't heard of it, at least in contrast to other area Ross courses like Oakland Hills and Detroit Golf Club.

Speaking of the old Phoenix/Redford/Rogell course, it's of course NLE but nothing has been done yet by the group that purchased it from the church. The alluring land with it's valleys sits vacant.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Gib_Papazian on April 18, 2014, 02:45:06 PM
Not to be a shit disturber, but there are a very few strictly WASP or Jewish enclaves here - nothing like the Midwest and East, where everyone seems far more focused on religions and nationalities than out West. Lake Merced used to be a "Jewish Club" when I was growing up, but it is now a mixed bag of Jews, Asians and a few assorted Christians. Olympic was historically an Irish/Italian Catholic Jesuit club, but nobody really cares  what you are anymore.

Peninsula (Orig Beresford CC) was founded by pissed off Jews who could not get into either SF or Olympic, so they lured Donald Ross out to one-up the Gentiles, but it stopped being a Jewish club long before my time. It is just my impression that the further East you venture, the more willing people are to label each other.

My question is this: As a general rule, in the Midwest or East, is it tougher for a gentile to get into a Jewish club, or the other way around?



    
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Keenan on April 18, 2014, 03:02:58 PM
Gib

I have heard that same story about Jews unable to get into SF or Olympic but in this case  they started Lake Merced not Peninsula. No idea if it is true.

FYI  growing up as an Irish Catholic school boy in San Francisco we were told the Olympic club was started because they would not allow Irish in SF Golf club. No idea if there is any truth or just urban myth

John
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Gib_Papazian on April 18, 2014, 03:19:19 PM
John,

There is a little bit of truth and a little bit of legend there. Olympic was founded in 1860 as a male-only athletic club. We did not have a golf course until the early 20's - with 36 holes superimposed atop the old Lakeside CC. We pre-date SFGC by many years.

The club was thinking about golf before the Great War - and even brought Raynor out to design his "West Coast Lido;" following the Armistice, there was enough interest (and land) to build 36 holes, so the Raynor plans sit on our wall, sticking its tongue out at me every time I walk to my locker.

To the best of my knowledge, there are still no Jews, Blacks or even Armenians  ;) at SFGC - although there might be Catholics.   
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: David_Tepper on April 18, 2014, 03:31:28 PM
"We pre-date SFGC by many years."

Gib -

Are you sure about that? My understanding is the group that built the original golf holes at the Presidio (circa 1895) became the SFGC at  its present location (which pre-dates the original Lakeside course) with an interlude at a NLE course in the Ingleside area in the early 1900's.

The original Lakeside course was built around 1917 and acquired by the Olympic Club not too long thereafter. SFGC was in its present location before then.

But I could be wrong about that!

DT     
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Keenan on April 18, 2014, 03:40:01 PM
Gib

As with most stories a little bit of truth and a little bit of myth

On SFGC Ms Rice would eliminate one of your categories. 

John


Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 18, 2014, 03:43:49 PM


Gib,

Is that Raynor schematic available in print ?

Can you post it ?


There is a little bit of truth and a little bit of legend there. Olympic was founded in 1860 as a male-only athletic club. We did not have a golf course until the early 20's - with 36 holes superimposed atop the old Lakeside CC. We pre-date SFGC by many years.

The club was thinking about golf before the Great War - and even brought Raynor out to design his "West Coast Lido;" following the Armistice, there was enough interest (and land) to build 36 holes, so the Raynor plans sit on our wall, sticking its tongue out at me every time I walk to my locker.

To the best of my knowledge, there are still no Jews, Blacks or even Armenians  ;) at SFGC - although there might be Catholics.   
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: JMEvensky on April 18, 2014, 04:03:33 PM
Gib

As with most stories a little bit of truth and a little bit of myth

On SFGC Ms Rice would eliminate one of your categories. 

John




Condaleeza Rice is Armenian?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Keenan on April 18, 2014, 04:12:22 PM
I think so  ;)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Gib_Papazian on April 18, 2014, 04:29:39 PM
David,

I am aware of the different permutations of SFGC - I was referring to the the fact we date back to 1860.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jim Nugent on April 18, 2014, 04:51:03 PM


The club was thinking about golf before the Great War - and even brought Raynor out to design his "West Coast Lido;" following the Armistice, there was enough interest (and land) to build 36 holes, so the Raynor plans sit on our wall, sticking its tongue out at me every time I walk to my locker.
 

I would love to learn more about Raynor's designs.  Same location as current courses?  The typical collection of Raynor templates?  Thoughts on how the courses would have turned out? 

And also, why didn't the club follow through on Raynor's plans -- was it because Raynor died before he could put them on the ground? 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: David_Tepper on April 18, 2014, 04:56:51 PM
Gib -

Sorry, I thought you were referring to the date that the OC acquired the Lakeside GC vs. the formation of the SFGC. 

DT
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: David_Tepper on April 18, 2014, 05:59:11 PM
"I would love to learn more about Raynor's designs.  Same location as current courses?"

Jim N. -

If I am reading the OC club history correctly (and Gib will let us know if I am not ;)), the design Raynor proposed was for a renovation of the original Wilfred Reid 18-holes for the Lakeside GC. Rather than do that, the OC acquired more adjacent property in the early 1920's and decided to build two new courses, pretty much plowing under the Wilfred Reid course.

I do not know if Raynor was contacted regarding the design of the two new courses, which are attributed to Sam Whiting & Willie Watson.

DT   
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Nigel Islam on April 18, 2014, 06:50:45 PM
Haven't looked at the entire thread, and haven't played the course, but here in the Louisville metro area there is one "historically Jewish club."  Standard Country Club has been dying a slow death.  It was recently purchased by one of the Jewish orgainizations in the city and is renamed to the Standard Club.  There has been mention of shutting down clubhouse operations and only operating the golf course and pro shop.  I have heard its a nice course, but haven't and probably won't ever make it out there.  Maybe it will be public before they eventually decide to shut the doors.

Adam SCC used to be located at the old River Run CC until 1950s. River Run was of course the original site of LCC and is now itself defunct.
Are you referring to the little course that is at the corner of River Road and Zorn Ave. and is now a dog park/walking park/cross country park?

Yes that was originally the LCC
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tim Martin on April 19, 2014, 08:56:12 AM
Woodbridge CC in Woodbridge Connecticut was built as a Jewish club in 1938. Orrin Smith was the architect and it operated through 2008 until the debt load forced a sale to the town. Billy Casper Golf now runs the facility for the town although it has been a money loser the last couple of years and it's fate going forward is uncertain.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 19, 2014, 02:12:56 PM

Woodbridge CC in Woodbridge Connecticut was built as a Jewish club in 1938. Orrin Smith was the architect and it operated through 2008 until the debt load forced a sale to the town. Billy Casper Golf now runs the facility for the town although it has been a money loser the last couple of years and it's fate going forward is uncertain.

Tim,

If it was built in 1938 how did it incur such debt that it went under in 2008 ?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 19, 2014, 02:23:46 PM
Pat,

if I remember correctly, Woodbridge spent a lot on their club house and was sold to the town for $6.9 million in 2009.

http://www.woodbridgect.org/wnews/?FeedID=352
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jeff_Stettner on April 19, 2014, 02:52:23 PM
Sadly, St. Louis is still trapped in a stunning time warp, with 3 clubs that are essentially Jewish free, one club that is completely Jewish and a historically second Jewish club that has become more integrated. Of course, this is the town that had a club reject the Busch Family, leading to the construction of another club in the 1920's. In more recent times, AT&T packed up and left the town for Dallas (via San Antonio) partly because the CEO was rejected from the golf club he preferred in STL. Coming from the bay area, I didn't realize how deep the roots still run on both sides of the divide. It's really quite sad and it is seriously hurting the regions ability to stay competitive in terms of attracting business infrastructure. 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Gib_Papazian on April 19, 2014, 03:36:26 PM
David,

You are correct, the Raynor plans were to be superimposed atop the Wilfred Reid Lakeside course. Those familiar with The Evangelist know the only "interview" Raynor ever gave was to The Olympian magazine - the subject of which was his design for a "West Coast Lido."

I'm still not clear on why our club did not simply build the Raynor plans after WW1 ended and then hire another architect to lay out a 2nd golf course if that was the objective. The original Lido was still operating at full rip on the south shore of L.I. and it was considered (I'm pulling this out of my memory banks) one of the top courses in America with PV, NGLA and Timber Point.

I've never been able to orient the Raynor plans in terms of our property, but likely the layout wandered extensively along the water in the same way our original Pacific Links course was routed along the dunes and bluffs below the shelf where the Cliffs Course is today. Perhaps Olympic's Lido would have slid into the ocean just as parts of the original version did. Maybe so, maybe not.

What is still completely unexplainable is when the decision was made to remodel the current Ocean Course, we did not consider using the Raynor plans, sitting there gathering dust in the Historian's closet. And then when we decided to hire Bill Love to rethink the golf course again - those same plans had been framed and were hanging prominently on the wall in our locker room.

How many chances do you get to exhume the spirit of a Golden Age genius from the grave and literally resurrect and build his masterpiece? Our club VP arranged an informal meeting with several members of the Board (and Green Chairman) to give me an opportunity to pitch the idea of building the Raynor plans, but our GC at the time didn't know a Redan from a ball washer and I might as well have been speaking in Swahili.

By contrast, Sequoyah CC was smart enough to let Doug Nickels sympathetically adapt Chandler Egan's wonderful remodeling plans - proposed in the early 1930s, but never completed. Ironically, there is evidence that Raynor also drew up some plans for the club during one of his two trips through the Bay Area, but my research and observations conclude they were drastically modified during construction.

Alas, it is too late and unless I somehow hit the Lotto, purchase some coastal acreage and build it myself, those plans will still be sitting on that damned wall after I take my last divot. The final hope was Old Mac, but Uncle George, Doak and Urbina could not make a strict Lido reprise fit - though I can hardly whine about having an updated NGLA on the West Coast.

In the end, for Olympic, ignoring the Raynor plans was a terrible, once in a millennium lost opportunity; I still believe it was the exact right idea, but at the wrong time - and with the wrong people turning the dials and pulling the levers. If we could somehow reset the clock with the Green Chairs and committees the last few years, I believe the outcome might have been very different.

But then again, if a West Coast Lido already existed at Olympic, Mike Keiser probably would not have moved forward with the idea of Old Macdonald. In the end, a showcase for CB and Raynor's template holes are probably best on a public course to educate the "retail golfers," but it sure would have been nice not to be forced to get on an airplane every time I want to revisit the past.          

Off topic, but I just looked on Amazon and cannot believe used copies of the book are going for $375 and up, new ones well north of $1,000. I gave away at least a half dozen of them to friends . . . . . wish I had known The Evangelist would become a collectors item. 

  
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Gib_Papazian on April 19, 2014, 04:23:14 PM
Jeff,

I was surprised when you decided to move to St. Louis and recall warning you it would be a wicked culture shock. Going from the Oakland Hills to Emory - that we both know is hanging on the outer edge of the left wing - and then to live in St. Louis struck me as a form of insanity. You're a smart kid (not a kid anymore actually) who made it work, but you had to know going in that people on the east side of the Rockies are hyper-aware of race and religion compared to home base.

It seems odd, but Chicago is still the most segregated place I've ever been - even more than NYC. I'm told St. Louis is pretty much the same way. Heck, when I visit store locations with customers in Chicago, the surrounding neighborhoods are usually overwhelmingly one thing.

"Over der, ya see, that where all the Pollocks live. This one is all Italians, go down about three miles and all the Indians live there."

Really, it's nuts when you think about it, but move into the wrong neighborhood there for your ethnicity or religion and people actually, really and truly give a shit. Same goes for much of the Upper Atlantic Seaboard. It seems bizarro world to us, because hardly anybody gives it a thought here, although most of my Jewish friends introduce themselves name first - and then work into the conversation somehow that they are Jewish . . . . like the idiot Gentile couldn't figure out Seth Rosenberg goes to Temple without the Star of David around his neck.   ;D    

There was once terrible bigotry against Armenians in Fresno - so much so that until the late 1970's Sunnyside CC actively barred admittance to anybody with an "ian" at the end of their name. Lots of us have white bread sounding surnames, changed several generations back to avoid being stigmatized. Even when I was a kid, Armenians in the central valley were referred to a "Fresno Indians," but like everything else in California, most all of that went away too.

The nice thing about being Armenian is that nobody but radical Muslims (since we are essentially 100% Christian) have a bone to pick with us. Jews act like we're first counsins - which we kinda are - and garden variety honkeys don't know enough about us to form a prejudice.      
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jud_T on April 19, 2014, 05:00:07 PM
Gib,

I have no idea what you're talking about.  Aside from that pesky reverse circumcision clause, I never noticed the least bit of segregation among the old line Chicago clubs.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 19, 2014, 11:30:58 PM
Pat,

if I remember correctly, Woodbridge spent a lot on their club house and was sold to the town for $6.9 million in 2009.

http://www.woodbridgect.org/wnews/?FeedID=352

Steve,

I've fought at the committee and board level against incurring debt at clubs my entire life.

The problem was, that for the longest time, times were good and no one thought that they would end.

Woodcrest, Shackamaxon, Woodridge and so many other clubs spent money recklessly, mostly building club houses as a tribute to the Taj Mahal.

And, how did these morons fund these projects ? 

With debt.

They counted on the future members to pay for the obligations created by today's members.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.

In truth, the generation that created this debt didn't experience the Great Depression, and their parents admonitions, borne of unpleasant experiences, went unheeded, as times were "good"

Pay as you go should be the motto displayed at every club's front gate and included in their by-laws.

End of rant  ;D
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Dan Herrmann on April 20, 2014, 10:07:45 AM
Patrick - you're SO right.

One of the best character builders in my life was my late mother.  She was born in '32, and, after her father passed away at a young age, spent part of her childhood living in "projects".   The fiscal conservatism that she taught me has served me very well, and you're right - it would serve country clubs well too.

Also - our LDS friends know that too much debt leads to a kind of bondage.

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Nigel Islam on April 20, 2014, 11:15:31 AM
Patrick - you're SO right.

One of the best character builders in my life was my late mother.  She was born in '32, and, after her father passed away at a young age, spent part of her childhood living in "projects".   The fiscal conservatism that she taught me has served me very well, and you're right - it would serve country clubs well too.




Agreed. My dad was born in India & my mom in England and they grew up during World War 2. The values  passed on from them have been invaluable. Thanks Dan and Pat for helping me to think of them today.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Paul Gray on April 20, 2014, 03:58:21 PM
Pat,

if I remember correctly, Woodbridge spent a lot on their club house and was sold to the town for $6.9 million in 2009.

http://www.woodbridgect.org/wnews/?FeedID=352

Steve,

I've fought at the committee and board level against incurring debt at clubs my entire life.

The problem was, that for the longest time, times were good and no one thought that they would end.

Woodcrest, Shackamaxon, Woodridge and so many other clubs spent money recklessly, mostly building club houses as a tribute to the Taj Mahal.

And, how did these morons fund these projects ? 

With debt.

They counted on the future members to pay for the obligations created by today's members.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.

In truth, the generation that created this debt didn't experience the Great Depression, and their parents admonitions, borne of unpleasant experiences, went unheeded, as times were "good"

Pay as you go should be the motto displayed at every club's front gate and included in their by-laws.

End of rant  ;D

Mucci,

What happened around here? I go away for a while, come back and the first thing I read on returning is written by you......and it's hugely sensible!

Incredibly unlikely though it may be, if we ever end up on a committee together it seems we might actually manage to agree on something. Not sure how I feel about that. ;)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 20, 2014, 06:19:48 PM
Paul Gray,

I think you'd feel enlightened, as if you had an epiphany  ;D

Don't ever forget that everyone is entitled to my opinion. ;D ;D
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tim Gavrich on April 17, 2015, 09:32:35 PM
Thought I'd resurface this interesting topic rather than start a new one that might not gain much steam.

I played Banyan Golf Club today and found it to be quite enjoyable. The course did not blow me away, but I left feeling as though it and the other aspects of the club suit the members' purposes pretty perfectly.

The course was designed by Joe Lee and opened in 1973; it's a pretty on-the-nose example of golf courses built in that era by people not named Pete Dye - it's very straightforward tee-to-green, lots of "4 and 8 o'clock" greenside bunkering but almost always enough room to run a ball up onto a green, which is necessary for a club that seems to take a lot of rounds from older male and female players.

I thought there was an interesting aesthetic contrast between the two nines. On the front, each hole is at least mostly isolated with a border (well off the fairway, mostly) of palms and palmettos, mostly, keeping it out of sight of adjacent holes. Under those vegetative borders is the hard-packed sand that serves as a good and unintrusive cart path surface. But the back nine, for the most part, has almost a savanna-like feel, with a big contiguous field of maintained grass connecting holes 10-15. The last three holes are more like the front side. It wasn't a jarring difference, but I was struck by it.

The course was in really excellent shape - very green, certainly, but firm enough that shaping approach shots in the right direction was advantageous. The greens were the perfect speed, given that there was some grain in them. Downhill down-grain putts were quite slick. I was also pleased to see that the primary rough is kept quite short - it's not the type of place where the membership prioritizes the ability to brag about how tough the course is.

Likewise, the clubhouse is not ostentatious and blends in perfectly to the environment. The '70s seemed to be a pretty hit-or-miss time architecturally; Banyan's clubhouse struck me as a hit.

Suffice it to say that I thought there was a great deal of balance at Banyan. I am not nearly well-traveled enough to make any declarations about whether this put-togetherness is typical of traditionally Jewish clubs, but there you have it.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: cary lichtenstein on April 17, 2015, 09:55:26 PM
AS long as this topic has been brought up, I will address the the anti Jewish, anti Sematism in Chicago and here in Fl.

It is very evident, especially now that I am in the real estate business. I can tell u all the clubs and gated communities that do not want Jews, and how it would shock you.

I can tell you the realtors who protect their own and what a crock of shit that is.

I can tell you the clubs that only want to admit 10 "good Jews" and all about that

I can tell  you about Seminole, Jupiter Hills, Lost Tree, Loblobby Pines and others that are too good for Jews

If you think Anti-Sematism is rampant in Europe, so is it here.

I  can also tell u about in in Chicago, clubs that you never admit a Jew, let alone allow one to play.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Terry Lavin on April 17, 2015, 10:14:33 PM
Most clubs in Chicago can't afford to discriminate, but some still do. Some won't take Jews some won't take Goyim. Most accommodate. I played an old line Jewish club in town today with my buddy who is the first NJ member. And I'm not saying New Jersey!  We had a great day. Like every time I've played there.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jason Topp on April 17, 2015, 10:41:18 PM
AS long as this topic has been brought up, I will address the the anti Jewish, anti Sematism in Chicago and here in Fl.

It is very evident, especially now that I am in the real estate business. I can tell u all the clubs and gated communities that do not want Jews, and how it would shock you.

I can tell you the realtors who protect their own and what a crock of shit that is.

I can tell you the clubs that only want to admit 10 "good Jews" and all about that

I can tell  you about Seminole, Jupiter Hills, Lost Tree, Loblobby Pines and others that are too good for Jews

If you think Anti-Sematism is rampant in Europe, so is it here.

I  can also tell u about in in Chicago, clubs that you never admit a Jew, let alone allow one to play.

Still true in Minneapolis as well as far as I know.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 18, 2015, 12:33:09 AM
@ Tim

Thanks for reviving this thread. Banyan, The Falls & High Ridge are all non residential "HJC" clubs in the West Palm area. Here's an old thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=47971.0

@Cary & Jason

I'm in the process of gathering more information for an article about the only "HJC" in my new hometown- the Phoenix area- the NLE Century CC, founded in the 1950s, with a course by Johnny Bulla. The members sold the club due to financial distress in 1977 and became public and is now known Orange Tree Golf Resort, It does have a hotel/time share component, hence "Golf Resort."  It's very playable and is usually in good condition.  Century was founded for the usual reasons as the old line clubs in the area were restricted. Now they're not. Phoenix probably remains as the only major metro area without a "HJC."
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: cary lichtenstein on April 18, 2015, 02:44:14 AM
Thought I'd resurface this interesting topic rather than start a new one that might not gain much steam.

I played Banyan Golf Club today and found it to be quite enjoyable. The course did not blow me away, but I left feeling as though it and the other aspects of the club suit the members' purposes pretty perfectly.

The course was designed by Joe Lee and opened in 1973; it's a pretty on-the-nose example of golf courses built in that era by people not named Pete Dye - it's very straightforward tee-to-green, lots of "4 and 8 o'clock" greenside bunkering but almost always enough room to run a ball up onto a green, which is necessary for a club that seems to take a lot of rounds from older male and female players.

I thought there was an interesting aesthetic contrast between the two nines. On the front, each hole is at least mostly isolated with a border (well off the fairway, mostly) of palms and palmettos, mostly, keeping it out of sight of adjacent holes. Under those vegetative borders is the hard-packed sand that serves as a good and unintrusive cart path surface. But the back nine, for the most part, has almost a savanna-like feel, with a big contiguous field of maintained grass connecting holes 10-15. The last three holes are more like the front side. It wasn't a jarring difference, but I was struck by it.

The course was in really excellent shape - very green, certainly, but firm enough that shaping approach shots in the right direction was advantageous. The greens were the perfect speed, given that there was some grain in them. Downhill down-grain putts were quite slick. I was also pleased to see that the primary rough is kept quite short - it's not the type of place where the membership prioritizes the ability to brag about how tough the course is.

Likewise, the clubhouse is not ostentatious and blends in perfectly to the environment. The '70s seemed to be a pretty hit-or-miss time architecturally; Banyan's clubhouse struck me as a hit.

Suffice it to say that I thought there was a great deal of balance at Banyan. I am not nearly well-traveled enough to make any declarations about whether this put-togetherness is typical of traditionally Jewish clubs, but there you have it.
I always thought the 2 nines were vstly different, never really liked the back nine
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Ian Andrew on April 18, 2015, 04:36:25 AM
I work with most of the Jewish and formerly Jewish clubs around Toronto and Montreal.
There are very few left and it appears that in one more generation and there may be none.

I've always been stunned by the discrimination that led to their formation.
It's not the discrimination aspect, as bothersome as that is for me, but how "recently" this was still a problem in Canadian society.
Interestingly, people of colour were welcome well early on, "long" before Jewish members of society were welcome at many private clubs.

I always thought I lived in "Toronto the Good" until I became part of Jewish Golf community.


Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jason Way on April 18, 2015, 09:04:40 AM
Even though Chicago clubs have to change practices for practical reasons, I suspect that the exclusionary spirit will likely remain for a long time, which is unfortunate.

This thread reminded me of the story of Albert Lasker commissioning William Flynn to build the NLE Mill Road Farm course because he couldn't join any of the local WASP-havens (I'm a Lake Forest born WASP, so I can say that). 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-06-26/news/0906240565_1_albert-lasker-first-tee-club

Although it was not a club, was this the first Jewish course in Chicagoland?  Dan Moore must know... 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 18, 2015, 10:14:30 AM
@Jason Lake Shore CC (1908)  and Bryn Mawr CC (1918) are older. Lake Shore was founded by Julius Rosenwald, President of Sears Roebuck.

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Dan Herrmann on April 18, 2015, 10:51:04 AM
It isn't just traditionally Jewish golf clubs that are disappearing.   Article on the Jewish deli's changes:  http://www.philly.com/philly/food/20150416_Jewish_delis__Co-opted_by_assimilation.html

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Terry Lavin on April 18, 2015, 11:03:08 AM
@Jason Lake Shore CC (1908)  and Bryn Mawr CC (1918) are older. Lake Shore was founded by Julius Rosenwald, President of Sears Roebuck.



Bryn Mawr is where I played yesterday. Great club, great restoration by Jim Nagle. And the club recently started seeking out non Jewish members. A couple (two pals of mine) have joined.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Sam Morrow on April 18, 2015, 12:03:18 PM
I'm shocked by all this talk of antisemitism in what are supposed to be the cultured parts of America. Here in the south neither myself or any relatives have ever been treated poorly.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike_Young on April 18, 2015, 12:34:04 PM
I'm shocked by all this talk of antisemitism in what are supposed to be the cultured parts of America. Here in the south neither myself or any relatives have ever been treated poorly.

Sam ,
Same here.......the big baptist clubs are also going away ever since a couple of those big time preachers got caught servicing the choir directors...
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Terry Lavin on April 18, 2015, 12:34:12 PM
I'm shocked by all this talk of antisemitism in what are supposed to be the cultured parts of America. Here in the south neither myself or any relatives have ever been treated poorly.

The discrimination cuts both ways in Chicago, but it's dying on the vine, for a variety of reasons.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tim_Cronin on April 18, 2015, 03:30:25 PM
Even though Chicago clubs have to change practices for practical reasons, I suspect that the exclusionary spirit will likely remain for a long time, which is unfortunate.

This thread reminded me of the story of Albert Lasker commissioning William Flynn to build the NLE Mill Road Farm course because he couldn't join any of the local WASP-havens (I'm a Lake Forest born WASP, so I can say that). 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-06-26/news/0906240565_1_albert-lasker-first-tee-club (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-06-26/news/0906240565_1_albert-lasker-first-tee-club)

Although it was not a club, was this the first Jewish course in Chicagoland?  Dan Moore must know... 

As I understand it, Lasker started Mill Road Farm because he lived off the first tee of Lake Shore and thought it was too busy. But Ravisloe goes back to 1901.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bill_McBride on April 18, 2015, 08:42:08 PM
I have only been lucky enough to play at a few Jewish clubs, but the food has always been superlative. 
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: cary lichtenstein on April 18, 2015, 09:09:14 PM
Jews are great eaters, poor drinkers. I remember the club manager at Bob O Link telling our manager that his bartenders spill more than our club members drink.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Josh Stevens on April 18, 2015, 09:28:45 PM
Only one historically Jewish club in Australia as far as I am aware, the Monash Country Club in northern Sydney.  Not a masterpiece architecturally and the Jewishness now diminished but the need for its formation still an interesting footnote
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bill_McBride on April 18, 2015, 09:54:37 PM
Jews are great eaters, poor drinkers. I remember the club manager at Bob O Link telling our manager that his bartenders spill more than our club members drink.

That's probably not too good for the bottom line!   ;D
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John McCarthy on April 18, 2015, 11:23:06 PM
Who designed the original Twin Orchard before they moved because of the semi-eponymously named airport was going in?

Edit: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=25494.0;wap2

Langford.  Nevermind.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 19, 2015, 01:24:50 AM
For Jewish clubs, golf served as just one of many reasons for seeking membership. The club became a center for Jewish life, providing privacy so an extended family of sorts could celebrate holidays and dining, and pursue community service or charity work.
That kindred behavior often has led to distinct differences between Jewish clubs and other private facilities. Jewish clubs keep outside corporate outings to a minimum. They offer full-service meals all the time, not just on weekends. They usually keep a bigger staff, which typically translates into better service but higher costs for labor and benefits.
One interesting cultural aside, according to McMahon: Jewish clubs consume less alcohol, lowering revenues from one of the most profitable components of any private-club operation.

The profit on gin-and-tonics alone has probably paid for a lot of lawn-mowing at classic WASP courses.


http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/08/decline-of-jewish-country-clubs.html

The demise of Century CC in Phoenix,mentioned in my earlier post above,  is generally attributed to less alcohol consumption. On the other hand, a non Jewish club in the Philly 'burbs is well known for its high alcohol consumption and profitability. The had very reasonable annual dues.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Adam Warren on April 20, 2015, 01:17:28 PM
In Kentucky (Louisville) there is only one traditionally Jewish club that I am aware of, and it has fallen on hard times in the past few years, so I am certain they do not discriminate as to who joins.  It was bought a year or so ago by the Jewish Community Center I believe.

No Louisville clubs can really afford to discriminate against the Jewish either, as I would guess not very many are at capacity with the exception of Midland Trail.  To be honest, "Jewish discrimination" is something that ever even occurred to me prior to learning about Standard Country Club.  It's just not a thing in Kentucky for the most part, or even my generation.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: PCCraig on April 20, 2015, 01:40:53 PM
AS long as this topic has been brought up, I will address the the anti Jewish, anti Sematism in Chicago and here in Fl.

It is very evident, especially now that I am in the real estate business. I can tell u all the clubs and gated communities that do not want Jews, and how it would shock you.

I can tell you the realtors who protect their own and what a crock of shit that is.

I can tell you the clubs that only want to admit 10 "good Jews" and all about that

I can tell  you about Seminole, Jupiter Hills, Lost Tree, Loblobby Pines and others that are too good for Jews

If you think Anti-Sematism is rampant in Europe, so is it here.

I  can also tell u about in in Chicago, clubs that you never admit a Jew, let alone allow one to play.

Still true in Minneapolis as well as far as I know.

Jason,

Really? I obviously haven't lived here very long but I wasn't aware?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: cary lichtenstein on April 20, 2015, 08:09:43 PM
pCraig:

When I was young, a very long time ago, I was a raving liberal.Over the years in business, both as an employer, a buyer, a seller and lots of other things, I was initially shocked and then came to accept the fact that the world for the most part does not like Jews.

I could tell you stories, that suppliers of mine in the textile business, on their 3rd scotch, would blurt out things that would shake my bones. I never confronted them except that 1 year later, if I could, they never did business with me again.

I see it today in the real estate business, in the golf business, and anyone who denies it is full of themselves. As your self, how many Jews being to the top 100 courses? And you will find the answers immediately
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 21, 2015, 01:24:24 PM
Getting back on the topic of this thread:

Pittsburgh has 2 "HJC" clubs-

Westmoreland (Dick Wilson) http://www.westmorelandcc.com/  

and Green Oaks (Ross) http://www.greenoakscc.com/

Any comments about these 2 courses?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve Lang on April 22, 2015, 04:09:56 PM
 8) for the tribe's listing... midwest city of Toledo,OH

in the 1960's the HJC:  Sunningdale CC 1926 (renamed Tamaron CC post-1972) (Weber)
also per punch up by Ben Cowan in later post #185: Glengarry 1921, (only gca reference i can find is consulted by SP Germain, redone by Cavalear) i had totally forgotten about Glengarry, now called Stone Oak CC in Holland,OH just west of t-town in Springfield Township where Farr was played.

cause folks couldn't become members at:

Inverness Club 1919 (Ross+)
Sylvania CC 1917-19 (Willie Park Jr.)
Toledo CC, 1897 (Willie Park Jr.)
Highland Meadows CC 1925 (Weber)
Heather Downs CC, 1925 (Rockefeller)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Chris_Blakely on April 22, 2015, 04:20:06 PM
8) for the tribe's listing... midwest city of Toledo,OH

in the 1960's the HJC:  Sunningdale CC 1926 (renamed Tamaron CC post-1972) (Weber)

cause folks couldn't become members at:

Inverness Club 1919 (Ross+)
Sylvania CC 1917-19 (Willie Park Jr.)
Toledo CC, 1897 (Willie Park Jr.)
Highland Meadows CC 1925 (Weber)
Heather Downs CC, 1925 (Rockefeller)


Steve,

I was under the impression that Highland Meadows was designed by Sandy Alves.  I have always wondered who designed Tamaron (FNA Sunningdale) as it is on a unique property (portions in Michigan and Ohio).

Thanks,

Chris
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve Lang on April 22, 2015, 04:57:11 PM
 8) Chris,

I found HM originally attributed to Harold Weber in a Toledo Blade article about the Silverman, Farr, & Weber induction to the Toledo Hall of Fame ..related to the Farr LPGA event.   Yes, I also have seen HM attributed to Alves

I find this: "The Fairways at Twin Lakes (in Kent,OH) was built in 1923 as Twin Lakes Country Club. It was designed by Sandy Alves, a golf course construction manager for the world-famous Donald Ross.

Impressed by his work, Ross recommended Alves to the members at Shaker Heights Country Club. Alves was hired to supervise construction of its Donald Ross course, and when construction was finished he stayed on as the Shaker’s first Golf Professional. Eight years later, Ross and Alves were chosen to design and build a course for The Masons of Cleveland, and they created Acacia Country Club in 1920. Alves remained as Acacia’s professional until his death in 1939.

While pro at Acacia, Alves designed a number of other Cleveland area courses, including the two courses at Highland Park in Cleveland, Ridgewood Golf Course in Parma, and Madison Country Club. He also designed Highland Meadows Country Club in Toledo and French Lick Resort in Indiana."  

the french lick design is i guess par for the age  :o  and Seems like Alves was in many places at the same time by these reportings.

As an ex-Toledoan, I'm going with the local guy, hero.. not someone from Cleveland!

from Judd Silverman:
... “I am similarly honored. I'm aware of who has been inducted in previous years and I'm flattered that I've been selected to join them. It's a privilege to go in with Jamie and it's ironic that Harold Weber is the third inductee. With him having designed Highland Meadows, it sort of brings all three of us together.”

Although the Toledo Golf Hall of Fame is only five years old, Weber's induction is already overdue. Not only was he the city's first golfing star and a 14-time club champion at Inverness Club, where he was a founding member, he was also Toledo's first golfer to be noted on statewide and national levels. He was a four-time Ohio Amateur champion.

He studied golf course design at the hands of S.P. Jermain, who built the Ottawa Park course, and observed as the legendary Donald Ross produced the championship course at Inverness.

Weber, who died in 1933, designed courses at Sunningdale (now Tamaron), Chippewa and Riverby Hills, but his best layout was
his first - Highland Meadows opened in 1925 - and that was obviously influenced to some degree by Ross' then-recent work at Inverness.
“Highland Meadows and Inverness are both beautiful parkland courses where you can see some similar bunkering, similar contours in greens and a similar use of topography,” Silverman said. “So, perhaps, Weber brought some of the Ross influence with him when he designed Highland Meadows. Like Inverness, it's a very natural fit with the land that was available.”

And it's a natural fit that three men who, directly or indirectly, have played key roles in the Farr Classic are entering the Toledo Golf Hall of Fame at the same time. "
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Chris_Blakely on April 22, 2015, 05:36:05 PM
Steve,

Interesting, I have played all of the Toledo courses attributed to Mr. Weber.  Chippewa does not have the same feel as Tamaron and Highland Meadows.  Riverby Hills I believe was redone by Harold "Pappy" Paddock in the 60's and any original portion that may remain is the back 9.  I also believe a portion of the original course was across the street.  The Fairways at Twin lakes, Ridgewood, Madison, Highland Meadows and Tamaron have always struck me as very similar from a design standpoint.

I wonder if Mr. Weber worked with Sandy Alves or vice versa.

Thanks for the intel on Harold Weber,

Chris
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jud_T on April 22, 2015, 08:02:10 PM
Interesting that the one male Jewish Major winner only ended up winning the Open after he became a born again Christian.  
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: BCowan on April 22, 2015, 08:10:17 PM
8) for the tribe's listing... midwest city of Toledo,OH

in the 1960's the HJC:  Sunningdale CC 1926 (renamed Tamaron CC post-1972) (Weber)

cause folks couldn't become members at:

Inverness Club 1919 (Ross+)
Sylvania CC 1917-19 (Willie Park Jr.)
Toledo CC, 1897 (Willie Park Jr.)
Highland Meadows CC 1925 (Weber)
Heather Downs CC, 1925 (Rockefeller)


Steve,

Glengarry was the only Jewish club in the Toledo area I was aware of.  It's now called Stone Oak, which hosted the first Jamie Farr.

I was suprised to read Harold Weber on this thread.  A good regional archie.

Riverby has potential

I didn't know that about Sunningdale.  Nice find
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 22, 2015, 08:34:12 PM
Interesting that the one male Jewish Major winner only ended up winning the Open after he became a born again Christian.  

Jud,

I'm trying to figure out why you would post the above.

What does one's religion have to do with playing golf
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 22, 2015, 08:59:16 PM

AS long as this topic has been brought up, I will address the the anti Jewish, anti Sematism in Chicago and here in Fl.

It is very evident, especially now that I am in the real estate business. I can tell u all the clubs and gated communities that do not want Jews, and how it would shock you.

I can tell you the realtors who protect their own and what a crock of shit that is.

I can tell you the clubs that only want to admit 10 "good Jews" and all about that

I can tell you about Seminole, Jupiter Hills, Lost Tree, Loblobby Pines and others that are too good for Jews

If you think Anti-Sematism is rampant in Europe, so is it here.

I  can also tell u about in in Chicago, clubs that you never admit a Jew, let alone allow one to play.

Cary,

I can't speak to Chicago clubs, but, I will offer a contrarian position when it comes to golf clubs, especially Jewish golf clubs.
One that I think you'll understand.

Jewish golf clubs are inextricably woven into the fabric of the surrounding and supporting Jewish community.
We both know why Jewish clubs were formed and we both know why they remained vigilant and true to their Jewish roots while the world around them was begining to become homogenized.  They had to for survivability

For 50, 75 and 100 years, Jewish clubs were an integral part of the Jewish community.
That was their identity.
Had they opened their gates to non-Jewish members, early on, they would have begun to lose that identity with each suceeding generation.
In order to survive as a Jewish club and remain an integral part of the Jewish community, they had to retain exclusionary admissions policies.
It was a key to their survival.

Today, for a variety of reasons, Jewish clubs are admitting non-Jewish members.
But, they have to be careful, for if they admit too many non-Jewish members, the club will lose it's identity and it's connection to the Jewish community.
It's critical that those clubs retain their historical identity and an ongoing connection to the Jewish community.

Hence, quotas are a practical methodology for selectively integrating the club.
A methodology that brings an element of diversity while preserving the Jewish heritage and retaining their connection to the Jewish community.

You and I both know that there have been debates about the "religion" versus "ethnicity" aspect of Judaism.
It's my opinion that religion is a significant element inherent in a Jewish club, and I think that separates them from many other clubs.

Hence, I'm of the opinion that Jewish clubs should continue to remain selective in terms of their admissions policies.
That they should utilize quotas in structuring their memberships, today and into the future.
If they should lose their historical and inherent connection to the Jewish community, they'll never regain it.
And then, they'll have nowhere to turn in terms of access to other clubs.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jud_T on April 22, 2015, 09:21:41 PM
Interesting that the one male Jewish Major winner only ended up winning the Open after he became a born again Christian.  

Jud,

I'm trying to figure out why you would post the above.

What does one's religion have to do with playing golf

Apparently ones religion has had, and continues to have, entirely too much to do with playing golf.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 22, 2015, 09:28:13 PM
Interesting that the one male Jewish Major winner only ended up winning the Open after he became a born again Christian.  

Jud,

I'm trying to figure out why you would post the above.

What does one's religion have to do with playing golf

Apparently ones religion has had, and continues to have, entirely too much to do with playing golf.

Religion may affect what club you belong to, but a U.S. Open is just that, Open to all who meet the playing qualifications
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: cary lichtenstein on April 22, 2015, 09:38:14 PM
Sorry, but i neither buy that or agree. Jews are the most liberal, accepting group on the planet. Jews will be delighted to accept any qualified member and probably hold a higher than for accepted Jews that know.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 22, 2015, 10:16:46 PM
All,

It's very difficult to keep this thread "on topic." I am interested in the " golf courses of the historically Jewish clubs. " However,  we all know the reason for the formation of the clubs in the early 20th century. Bear in mind the founders of these clubs "back in the day" were mostly German Jews who discriminated against the Eastern European Jews for many years. Just read the books by Stephen Birmingham-"Our Crowd" and "The Rest Of Us." Today, the situation is different for the most part. In the major metro areas, with rare exceptions, "HJC" remain strong. Otherwise, in smaller areas, these clubs are struggling for various reasons. On the other side, many old line WASP clubs have opened their previously restricted memberships. Some have not. Remember, private clubs are private. There's a place for every one in golf.

That being said, any comments about the 2 courses at "HJC" in Pittsburgh that I mentioned above- Westmoreland (Dick Wilson) and Green Oaks (Ross) ?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 22, 2015, 10:28:11 PM

Sorry, but i neither buy that or agree. Jews are the most liberal, accepting group on the planet. Jews will be delighted to accept any qualified member and probably hold a higher than for accepted Jews that know.

Cary,

You need to re-read my post, evidently you didn't understand it.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tim Martin on April 22, 2015, 10:49:27 PM

AS long as this topic has been brought up, I will address the the anti Jewish, anti Sematism in Chicago and here in Fl.

It is very evident, especially now that I am in the real estate business. I can tell u all the clubs and gated communities that do not want Jews, and how it would shock you.

I can tell you the realtors who protect their own and what a crock of shit that is.

I can tell you the clubs that only want to admit 10 "good Jews" and all about that

I can tell you about Seminole, Jupiter Hills, Lost Tree, Loblobby Pines and others that are too good for Jews

If you think Anti-Sematism is rampant in Europe, so is it here.

I  can also tell u about in in Chicago, clubs that you never admit a Jew, let alone allow one to play.

Cary,

I can't speak to Chicago clubs, but, I will offer a contrarian position when it comes to golf clubs, especially Jewish golf clubs.
One that I think you'll understand.

Jewish golf clubs are inextricably woven into the fabric of the surrounding and supporting Jewish community.
We both know why Jewish clubs were formed and we both know why they remained vigilant and true to their Jewish roots while the world around them was begining to become homogenized.  They had to for survivability

For 50, 75 and 100 years, Jewish clubs were an integral part of the Jewish community.
That was their identity.
Had they opened their gates to non-Jewish members, early on, they would have begun to lose that identity with each suceeding generation.
In order to survive as a Jewish club and remain an integral part of the Jewish community, they had to retain exclusionary admissions policies.
It was a key to their survival.

Today, for a variety of reasons, Jewish clubs are admitting non-Jewish members.
But, they have to be careful, for if they admit too many non-Jewish members, the club will lose it's identity and it's connection to the Jewish community.
It's critical that those clubs retain their historical identity and an ongoing connection to the Jewish community.

Hence, quotas are a practical methodology for selectively integrating the club.
A methodology that brings an element of diversity while preserving the Jewish heritage and retaining their connection to the Jewish community.

You and I both know that there have been debates about the "religion" versus "ethnicity" aspect of Judaism.
It's my opinion that religion is a significant element inherent in a Jewish club, and I think that separates them from many other clubs.

Hence, I'm of the opinion that Jewish clubs should continue to remain selective in terms of their admissions policies.
That they should utilize quotas in structuring their memberships, today and into the future.
If they should lose their historical and inherent connection to the Jewish community, they'll never regain it.
And then, they'll have nowhere to turn in terms of access to other clubs.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Deleted
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 22, 2015, 11:48:28 PM
All,

I give up.  ???
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 22, 2015, 11:53:55 PM
Steve,

My initial guess is that the courses built in the "Golden Age" we're of a high quality and designed by "Name" architects.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 22, 2015, 11:59:55 PM
Pat,

You are correct- Park, jr, Tillinghast, Ross, Colt/Alison, Raynor, etc all did work in the "Golden Age" for "HJC" In my first post on this thread in '08 I referenced :

Golf Digest

Quaker Ridge is 33 in America's Greatest 100 and  7 in NY state
Century is 20 in NY state
Franklin Hills is 21 in Michigan
Mountain Ridge is 14 in NJ
Hollywood is 15 in NJ
Broadmoor is 15 in Indiana

Golfweek

Quaker Ridge is 35 in Best Classic
Fenway is 60 in Best Classic
Franklin Hills is 63 in Best Classic
Engineers is 79 in Best Classic
Hollywood is 83 in Best Classic
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tom Bacsanyi on April 23, 2015, 04:06:26 PM
If I marry a Jewish girl can I join Franklin Hills?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Ryan Hillenbrand on April 23, 2015, 04:58:05 PM
Steve,

Interesting, I have played all of the Toledo courses attributed to Mr. Weber.  Chippewa does not have the same feel as Tamaron and Highland Meadows.  Riverby Hills I believe was redone by Harold "Pappy" Paddock in the 60's and any original portion that may remain is the back 9.  I also believe a portion of the original course was across the street.  The Fairways at Twin lakes, Ridgewood, Madison, Highland Meadows and Tamaron have always struck me as very similar from a design standpoint.

I wonder if Mr. Weber worked with Sandy Alves or vice versa.

Thanks for the intel on Harold Weber,

Chris

Harold Paddock also designed Westwood in St. Louis, and I had never before heard of him.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: David Amarnek on April 23, 2015, 09:04:56 PM
Ryan,
We sure wish we could figure out how it was that Harold Paddock was chosen to design Westwood's new course on Conway Road.  Any documentation which would have shed light on the subject was most likely lost in an all-too-common clubhouse fire in 1944.  My guess is that one of the influential Westwood members must have had some family or business connections in Ohio and liked what he saw of Paddock's work and engaged him to design the course. 
David
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 23, 2015, 09:52:26 PM

Steve,

In the greater NYC area, what about Alpine (Tillinghast) Green Brook (Travis) Shackamaxon (Tillinghast) Sunningdale (Tillinghast)  Nassau (Emmett) Seawane (Emmett) Crestmont (Ross) Englewood NLE (Ross)

In the "Golden Age" I think the Jewish clubs, created because Jews couldn't gain entry to the "iconic" local clubs, retained the name architects and gave them the assignment of creating clubs on a par with the "iconic" clubs.

It would be interesting to look at other areas such as Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, etc., etc.. to see if the same pattern exists.

Pat,

You are correct- Park, jr, Tillinghast, Ross, Colt/Alison, Raynor, etc all did work in the "Golden Age" for "HJC" In my first post on this thread in '08 I referenced :

Golf Digest

Quaker Ridge is 33 in America's Greatest 100 and  7 in NY state
Century is 20 in NY state
Franklin Hills is 21 in Michigan
Mountain Ridge is 14 in NJ
Hollywood is 15 in NJ
Broadmoor is 15 in Indiana

Golfweek

Quaker Ridge is 35 in Best Classic
Fenway is 60 in Best Classic
Franklin Hills is 63 in Best Classic
Engineers is 79 in Best Classic
Hollywood is 83 in Best Classic
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 23, 2015, 11:07:34 PM
Pat,

The courses that you mentioned above in your most recent post in NY have been mentioned in this very long thread at various times. My original post referenced those courses as the ones that are highly rated.  Certainly, the Golden Age architects produced many courses for "HJC" clubs in the NY area and elsewhere. For example, you did not mention Inwood(Strong)- the original Fresh Meadow ( Tillinghast) & North Shore (Raynor) among others in NY.

The Philadelphia area had Philmont North (Park, Jr) and South (Reid/Wilson) - Ashbourne ( NLE, Park, Jr) - Green Valley (Flynn) - Woodcrest (Flynn)

I'll do Boston, Chicago, L A, etc later, limited to those courses done in the "Golden Age. "
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 23, 2015, 11:27:01 PM
Steve,

I suspect that you'll find quality "golden age" courses at the other locations as well.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: J_ Crisham on April 23, 2015, 11:53:12 PM
In Chicago a  HJC might struggle to place in the top 15 courses. The 2 in my mind that could be amongst the top 15 are Lake Shore and Briarwood. The others are all 2nd tier courses. Ravisloe, Idlewild, Twin Orchards, Bryn Mawr all nice places but not anything special IMO . I'm probably leaving out a couple. In Chicago the top dogs are CGC , Shoreacres , OFCC North, Medinah, Skokie, Butler, Beverly, Flossmoor , Old Elm , OFCC South, Black Sheep, Glen View Club, Butterfield , Edgewood Valley , Onwentsia , Elgin and Conway Farms.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Phil Young on April 24, 2015, 12:42:17 AM
Steve,

Left off of your list of NY area courses was the estate course of Adolf Zukor the founder of Paramount studios that Tillinghast designed. Its known as Paramount CC today.

Another one that Tilly designed was the 9-hole Ingleside course which was sold and the members would later move to Alpharetta, Georgia where they enjoy the Standard Club sits. Interestingly, the Ingleside course would become the first African-American club in Atlanta...

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jud_T on April 24, 2015, 08:00:10 AM
J_Crisham,

Conditioning aside, do you honestly think Lake Shore is a better course than Ravisloe?  Personally, I don't see it.  Lake Shore, even with a nice Prichard resto/reno, is pretty meh IMO.  You also left off Green Acres, originally the Illinois Golf Club designed by Tilly.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike Schott on April 24, 2015, 10:30:13 AM
If I marry a Jewish girl can I join Franklin Hills?

 ;D Maybe not, but your future son can.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 24, 2015, 11:07:58 AM
Getting back on topic....once again...


Phil,

My mentions of other courses were not meant to be comprehensive but how could I forget Dellwood/Paramount, particularly since I've played the course . Also, how could you forget Tilly's Old Oaks in Purchase, NY?  ;D
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: JMEvensky on April 24, 2015, 11:22:10 AM
Was there any club whose difficulties were NOT caused,in the main, by assimilation?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 24, 2015, 11:37:10 AM
Jeff,

That's a difficult question. Most clubs have adapted to assimilation and intermarriage. The more important factors are changing demographics and economic realities and modern family life.  Ashbourne (1915, NLE) in Philly, for example, was located in a changing neighborhood, the membership got old, the younger members left for another club and the club was sold to a real estate developer who tried to keep it open as a public course but even that didn't work. Now, it's going to be a housing development.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: JMEvensky on April 24, 2015, 11:56:10 AM
Jeff,

That's a difficult question. Most clubs have adapted to assimilation and intermarriage. The more important factors are changing demographics and economic realities and modern family life.  Ashbourne (1915, NLE) in Philly, for example, was located in a changing neighborhood, the membership got old, the younger members left for another club and the club was sold to a real estate developer who tried to keep it open as a public course but even that didn't work. Now, it's going to be a housing development.

You're right--it's probably unanswerable. I guess my premise would be assimilation was the root cause until proved differently--even though I know there is no "proof".
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Phil Young on April 24, 2015, 01:20:02 PM
Steve,

I knew that the list wasn't comprehensive but I believe that its a bit significant that Tilly designed so many Jewish clubs especially in the New York area. I've always been fascinated with the relationships which led to specific architects obtaining specific commissions. For example, it was probably Tilly's friend Thomas Edison who introduced him to Zukor. Edison designed the lighting systems for Zukor's early studios and were good friends.

I didn't forget Old Oaks because I didn't know that it was a "Jewish" club...  8)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jim_Coleman on April 24, 2015, 01:53:19 PM
   Has anyone mentioned Pine Brook and Blue Hills in the Boston area?  Porky Oliver was the pro at Blue Hills in the '50's and 60's.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Bill Crane on April 24, 2015, 02:06:51 PM
While I have read this post in segments, have not noticed the mention of Greenacres CC in Lawrenceville, NJ not far from us in Princeton.  Not clear to me who did the original design work.

https://www.greenacres.club/

Founded in 1938 the club has been an active force in Mercer County golf for decades.  For many years it was noted as having the best restaurant in the county.

They keep chugging along despite some membership challenges in the past few years.


   Wm Flynnfan
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 24, 2015, 02:25:14 PM
Jim,

Just doing some research on Boston:

Pine Brook ( Van Cleek&Stiles, 1924)  and Blue Hill ( Eugene “Skip” Wogan, 1925) are indeed "HJC"

Belmont (Ross, 1918) and Kernwood (Ross, 1914:) are others in the Boston area.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on April 24, 2015, 02:30:51 PM
Bill,

Yes, Greenacres ( Emmett/Tull, 1938) should be mentioned here. I know they had membership problems there a few years ago but are now attracting members from Bucks County.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: mike_beene on April 24, 2015, 06:07:17 PM
To try to get the information into this excellent thread, Dallas had one historically Jewish club called the Columbian Club.It is an excellent course designed by Ralph Plummer which and is as good as anything in Dallas. A few years ago the club which was to my understanding down to less than 200 members sold to a man from my club who is reforming it as a golf club called the Honors Club and has a dpredesign from .Steve Smeyers(sp?) which will if executed destroy an excellent course.The new plans may be fine,I just hate to see the excellent course changed. They would like a big tournament,I think. Columbian is a little removed from central Dallas and from the Preston Hollow/Near North Dallas Jewish areas.Now 3 of my regular group of 12 are Jewish and the integration in the clubs has been the downfall of Columbian I believe
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: J_ Crisham on April 24, 2015, 07:11:24 PM
J_Crisham,

Conditioning aside, do you honestly think Lake Shore is a better course than Ravisloe?  Personally, I don't see it.  Lake Shore, even with a nice Prichard resto/reno, is pretty meh IMO.  You also left off Green Acres, originally the Illinois Golf Club designed by Tilly.
Jud-   Your question is a good one- I think the Prichard restoration gives the edge to Lake Shore. I enjoy Ravisloe particularly the par 3's and short 4's. If Rav would have a restoration by Prichard the upside potential might make it the best public in Chicago . The bones of the course are solid but it could be so much more , conditioning aside. Removing about 500 trees would be a great start. Lake Shore is a course I always enjoy playing . The only criticism I have of LS is the use of the ravines while good is not as spectacular as at Shoreacres. As I mentioned in my original post , I'm sure I left out a HJC or two- Greenacres is a club I've not been . Briarwood I've played only once and really liked it other than the tree in the middle of the 18th fairway. This is a course I could play every day and not tire of. It's a hidden gem in Chicago that you rarely hear of- maybe that's how they want it? All of the other 20 plus courses mentioned I have had the good fortune to play on several occasions.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Matthew Sander on April 24, 2015, 07:36:25 PM
Hi Jack,

Ravisloe did undergo some recent touch up work, however it was done by David Esler and not Ron Prichard. Assuming you've payed there since the work, do you think he missed the mark in any way other than tree removal?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Andrew Buck on April 24, 2015, 07:44:30 PM
I thought the touch up work was well done, as I played it a few times not long after the renovation.  Unfortunately, it took place long enough ago that tree removal was likely a harder sell.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: J_ Crisham on April 24, 2015, 08:41:09 PM
Hi Jack,

Ravisloe did undergo some recent touch up work, however it was done by David Esler and not Ron Prichard. Assuming you've payed there since the work, do you think he missed the mark in any way other than tree removal?
Matt,  I last played Rav in August- it's fun , I like it but it could be much more IMO . The trees are my main complaint but I also believe that I could pick out 300 trees at Bev which if removed would make our course better. Not sure if Esler recaptured the original green pads ? I'm a homer for Prichard for the following reasons: Evanston, Beverly , Charles River, Aronimink ,Minikhada , Cedar Rapids , Franklin Hills, Mtn Ridge and the list goes on. If it's Ross- he's the man.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Matthew Sander on April 24, 2015, 09:09:58 PM
Matt,  I last played Rav in August- it's fun , I like it but it could be much more IMO . The trees are my main complaint but I also believe that I could pick out 300 trees at Bev which if removed would make our course better. Not sure if Esler recaptured the original green pads ? I'm a homer for Prichard for the following reasons: Evanston, Beverly , Charles River, Aronimink ,Minikhada , Cedar Rapids , Franklin Hills, Mtn Ridge and the list goes on. If it's Ross- he's the man.

Don't forget Exmoor's place on the Prichard resume. Although I'll wait for Dan Moore's book to understand Ross's role in their convoluted architectural history...
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Sven Nilsen on April 24, 2015, 09:39:15 PM
Matt:

Don't forget Prichard's wonderful work on Langford's design at Skokie.

I'd go with Rav over Lakeshore.  The bones were better from the start.

Northmoor should be on the list for Chicago.

Sven
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jud_T on April 24, 2015, 11:02:50 PM
Sven & Matt,

I agree on both counts (particularly Skokie) but I'm not sure either should be mentioned in a thread about HJC.  :-*
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tim Martin on May 03, 2017, 02:07:19 PM
You missed Tillinghast's Alpine (originally named Aldecress) in New  Jersey. Some of the most devilish greens I have ever played.

http://www.alpinecc.org/Files/Library/TheNewCourseofAldecress.pdf (http://www.alpinecc.org/Files/Library/TheNewCourseofAldecress.pdf)


I recently got a chance to play Alpine and come away with the feeling that there should be more discussion about this golf course. Tillinghast routed a beauty through a site filled with elevation change and interesting land forms. First off the conditioning was incredible with a set of greens that have plenty of slope and cool contouring. The mix of holes is fantastic with particular emphasis on a handful of short par fours. This course sits in the shadow of Manhattan high above the Hudson and despite a fairly landlocked area pretty much hides in plain sight a good ways off the road. Finally I wouldn't tire of playing Alpine and as a disillusioned Irish Catholic wonder if god's chosen might find some sort of special membership option for someone outside the tribe? I can guarantee the board that I'm at least thirteen years old and would be open to a bar mitzvah if it includes full playing privileges. ;D
(http://i63.tinypic.com/34xlsfc.jpg)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jud_T on May 03, 2017, 06:59:00 PM
Another one bites the dust:


http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/northbrook/news/ct-nbs-green-acres-tl-0112-20170109-story.html
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on May 03, 2017, 08:22:35 PM
It appears that Greenacres in Chicago was originally established in the early 1920s as Illinois CC, designed by Tillinghast. That club did not survive the Depression and WWII and folded. Greenacres was formed and bought the club and changed the name. I doubt it was founded as a " HJC"in the 1920s but morphed into one when it was purchased:


http://www.tillinghast.net/whatsnewgreen.shtml


Alpine in NJ, another Tillinghast gem, opened in 1928 and was founded by " The Forty Millionaires" and was purchased by members in 1960. Again,according to some members,  I doubt it was founded as a " HJC" but morphed into one after its purchase:


http://www.alpinecc.org/story
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Kevin Robinson on May 05, 2017, 11:42:58 AM
Sorry, but i neither buy that or agree. Jews are the most liberal, accepting group on the planet. Jews will be delighted to accept any qualified member and probably hold a higher than for accepted Jews that know.


Cary, I see that you posted this quite a while back, and I just saw it, hence the long-delayed response.
In my early career as a club professional, I worked at two very private facilities within a few years of each other - one an HJC and the other a heralded WASP-ish club (not Yeamans Hall). Being a relative hayseed from the mountains of Western North Carolina, I was blissfully unaware of the stereotypes and uninformed assumptions people were likely to make in the late 90's. There were absolutely differences and quirks unique to the memberships at both facilities (I had never seen, let alone eaten, a beef tongue - nor a cheese blintz) but I can look back and state without hesitation that my experience in dealing with the respective memberships were completely different. At the WASP club, if a member never took the time to learn my name or anything about me, it was simply understood that they were my better, and I would generally only engage in service-related conversation. On the other hand, I found the Jewish club to be incredibly welcoming and most of the membership genuinely interested in getting to know the staff. In fact, getting invited into the clubhouse to eat beef tongue and blintzes (or their relative equivalent) would simply never have happened at that particular WASPY club. I was also very intrigued to learn that Robinson, especially if you are Polish, is a Jewish name...
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on August 01, 2022, 07:54:55 PM
I am reviving this thread after watching some golf at Detroit GC on TV this past weekend. Other than Franklin Hills, well known and highly rated, there are Knollwood and Tam O'Shanter as " HJC" in the Detroit area. Let's hear comments about these 2 courses:


Knollwood, in West Bloomfield,  is a 1925 Ross design:


https://www.knollwoodcountryclub.net/Life_at_the_Club (https://www.knollwoodcountryclub.net/Life_at_the_Club)

Tam O'Shanter ,in West Bloomfield, is a 1926 or 1929 design by Alison

https://www.tamoshantercc.org/ (https://www.tamoshantercc.org/)

History: https://www.tamoshantercc.org/about-us/history (https://www.tamoshantercc.org/about-us/history)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Greg Hohman on August 01, 2022, 10:15:55 PM
Steve,

Relying on the little gray cells and have not gone through the pages of previous posts: Did Tam O’Shanter host UGA events?

greg
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tommy Williamsen on August 02, 2022, 10:30:50 AM
Steve, I played Franklin Hills last summer. I thought it was exceptional. I loved the rolling terrain, the green complexes and the greens themselves. Because it is close to Oakland Hills the terrain is similar. It also might be the best conditioned course I've ever played. The course played fast and firm and the thread count in the fairways was extraordinary. The lies were tight but there was also grass underneath the ball. Sometimes fairways have tight lies but there is only a little bit of grass before you hit dirt. I loved the place.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Wayne_Kozun on August 02, 2022, 10:58:36 AM
Oakdale, an HJC club in Toronto, will be hosting the Canadian Open next year and again in 2026. The original nine holes at the course were designed by Stanley Thompson and Robbie Robinson added another nine in 1957.  There is also a third nine.  The course was recently renovated by Ian Andrew.,
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Anthony Gholz on August 02, 2022, 11:03:37 AM
Steve: 


Knollwood is NOT a Ross, but by (Arthur?) Ham.  He also did the CC of jackson (MI).  Ham was a super for Ross at some point, but I'm not knowledgable re that aspect of his career.  See David Harshbargers Knollwood thread down this list. I made some Knollwood/Jackson comments there. 


Just fyi I have Alison at Tam as early as 1925 with Hagen's takeover and remodeling of the club.  Hagen knew his Colt from his Alison and it's not surprising he would get the C&A firm out of Detroit to do the work.  The latest I have Alison at Tam is 1929.  Great property with an excellent routing.


Anthony
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 02, 2022, 11:18:40 AM
Sorry, but i neither buy that or agree. Jews are the most liberal, accepting group on the planet. Jews will be delighted to accept any qualified member and probably hold a higher than for accepted Jews that know.


Cary, I see that you posted this quite a while back, and I just saw it, hence the long-delayed response.
In my early career as a club professional, I worked at two very private facilities within a few years of each other - one an HJC and the other a heralded WASP-ish club (not Yeamans Hall). Being a relative hayseed from the mountains of Western North Carolina, I was blissfully unaware of the stereotypes and uninformed assumptions people were likely to make in the late 90's. There were absolutely differences and quirks unique to the memberships at both facilities (I had never seen, let alone eaten, a beef tongue - nor a cheese blintz) but I can look back and state without hesitation that my experience in dealing with the respective memberships were completely different. At the WASP club, if a member never took the time to learn my name or anything about me, it was simply understood that they were my better, and I would generally only engage in service-related conversation. On the other hand, I found the Jewish club to be incredibly welcoming and most of the membership genuinely interested in getting to know the staff. In fact, getting invited into the clubhouse to eat beef tongue and blintzes (or their relative equivalent) would simply never have happened at that particular WASPY club. I was also very intrigued to learn that Robinson, especially if you are Polish, is a Jewish name...


This post killed the thread a few years ago. Does it stand up?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: mike_malone on August 02, 2022, 11:33:25 AM
I played Quaker Ridge last week and loved it. While I was playing it I couldn’t find any Jewish design influences.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Ed Brzezowski on August 02, 2022, 02:19:45 PM
I played Quaker Ridge last week and loved it. While I was playing it I couldn’t find any Jewish design influences.




Now that's funny.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on August 02, 2022, 03:35:05 PM
What's so funny about it? Not many Jewish golf architects around these days. Maybe Rolling Green and Concord should expand their horizons.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve Lapper on August 02, 2022, 08:26:45 PM
I played Quaker Ridge last week and loved it. While I was playing it I couldn’t find any Jewish design influences.


That's a pathetic statement.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: mike_malone on August 02, 2022, 10:04:36 PM
I played Quaker Ridge last week and loved it. While I was playing it I couldn’t find any Jewish design influences.





That's a pathetic statement.


Steve,


You may have missed my point. I don’t think of Jewish clubs. I think of golf clubs.
Once you’re on the course it’s equality as it should be. [size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve Lapper on August 03, 2022, 06:00:24 AM
Mike,


  I well understand your point, however it is made with absolute ignorance or insinuation, whether it was your intent or not, e.g. pathetic. I won't be wavering from that.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jim_Coleman on August 03, 2022, 07:16:06 AM
   Mike has his flaws; prejudice isn’t one of them. I took the post to be a not very successful attempt at humor - something I can empathize with.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: archie_struthers on August 03, 2022, 08:37:25 AM
 8)


Woodcrest CC in Cherry Hill, NJ was established as a Jewish Club in 1929. Architect William Flynn. Neat golf course on a small footprint with some fantastic holes. A bit of a shoehorn but not many better than Flynn, the "Nature Faker" who made it work.


Not in top 100 by any means but lots of fun and requires some strategy and wedge play to shoot a score!

Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Jim_Coleman on August 03, 2022, 09:33:24 AM
   Philmont is another historically Jewish Philadelphia course. Once a very fancy German Jewish membership (a la Quaker Ridge), it has fallen on hard times.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Ed Brzezowski on August 03, 2022, 02:10:07 PM
What's so funny about it? Not many Jewish golf architects around these days. Maybe Rolling Green and Concord should expand their horizons.


Knowing that Mayday is a knucklehead and he just proved it. And our appetite at Concord  is wide open. Even to a Catholic boy with some Jewish blood. Stop by and i can prove it.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 03, 2022, 02:32:19 PM
What was the first great club to admit Irish Catholics? Did they ever build their own or just take places over?
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Stewart Abramson on August 03, 2022, 08:41:30 PM
I am reviving this thread after watching some golf at Detroit GC on TV this past weekend. Other than Franklin Hills, well known and highly rated, there are Knollwood and Tam O'Shanter as " HJC" in the Detroit area. Let's hear comments about these 2 courses:


Knollwood, in West Bloomfield,  is a 1925 Ross design:


https://www.knollwoodcountryclub.net/Life_at_the_Club (https://www.knollwoodcountryclub.net/Life_at_the_Club)

Tam O'Shanter ,in West Bloomfield, is a 1926 or 1929 design by Alison

https://www.tamoshantercc.org/ (https://www.tamoshantercc.org/)

History: https://www.tamoshantercc.org/about-us/history (https://www.tamoshantercc.org/about-us/history)


Tam O' Shanter and Knollwood have hosted the golf events for the JCC Maccabi Games (for Jewish kids ages 12-16 from across the US, Canada and approximately a dozen other countries) when Detroit was the host city.   Here's a link to photos of Tam O'Shanter from the 2014 event   [size=78%]https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157646374967467 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157646374967467)[/size]
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Tim Leahy on August 03, 2022, 08:47:11 PM
What was the first great club to admit Irish Catholics? Did they ever build their own or just take places over?
Notre Dame football club. They even changed the team name from the Catholics in the 1800's to the Fighting Irish in 1927. ;D
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on August 04, 2022, 01:45:06 PM
Re: Knollwood from 2012


Jewish Country Clubs Still Alive and Well
By Rabbi Jason Miller (https://rabbijason.com/author/jason2015/)


https://rabbijason.com/jewish-country-clubs-still-alive-and-well/ (https://rabbijason.com/jewish-country-clubs-still-alive-and-well/)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: John Kavanaugh on August 04, 2022, 02:23:58 PM
Re: Knollwood from 2012


Jewish Country Clubs Still Alive and Well
By Rabbi Jason Miller (https://rabbijason.com/author/jason2015/)


https://rabbijason.com/jewish-country-clubs-still-alive-and-well/ (https://rabbijason.com/jewish-country-clubs-still-alive-and-well/)



I watched episode 1 of Family Ties as suggested. Some good jokes, mostly at the expense of women.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Mike Schott on August 07, 2022, 05:04:25 PM
Re: Knollwood from 2012


Jewish Country Clubs Still Alive and Well
By Rabbi Jason Miller (https://rabbijason.com/author/jason2015/)


https://rabbijason.com/jewish-country-clubs-still-alive-and-well/ (https://rabbijason.com/jewish-country-clubs-still-alive-and-well/)

Nice article. My late father was heavily involved in the ADL and was friends with Dick Lobenthal.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Anthony Butler on August 09, 2022, 05:00:33 PM
What was the first great club to admit Irish Catholics? Did they ever build their own or just take places over?

Charles River Club in Newton is a Ross course that was created around 1928 due to the fact Irish Catholics could not gain admittance to The Country Club at the time.

Many of my wife's relatives have Jewish heritage and a couple are now members of TCC... A change I am thankful for a couple times a year.  :)
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Steve_ Shaffer on August 11, 2022, 11:46:58 AM
From Stewart Abramson:


I was a member of Otterkill CC in Campbell Hall NY. It was designed by William F Mitchell and opened in 1957. At that time there were three or four other private clubs in Orange County NY. none of which had any Jewish members. I'll try to find an article from one of the local papers from the opening week that described how the local Jewish community got together to form the club. When I joined in the 1990's there was a photo of the original members hanging in the locker  with all of their names. The names were all Jewish, except for one... Joe Bonnano, the crime boss who couldn't get into any other club. He was purportedly a member from the opening of the club until around 1963.
Title: Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
Post by: Stewart Abramson on August 12, 2022, 10:13:11 AM
From Stewart Abramson:


I was a member of Otterkill CC in Campbell Hall NY. It was designed by William F Mitchell and opened in 1957. At that time there were three or four other private clubs in Orange County NY. none of which had any Jewish members. I'll try to find an article from one of the local papers from the opening week that described how the local Jewish community got together to form the club. When I joined in the 1990's there was a photo of the original members hanging in the locker  with all of their names. The names were all Jewish, except for one... Joe Bonnano, the crime boss who couldn't get into any other club. He was purportedly a member from the opening of the club until around 1963.


Steve, I was unable to find the article I was referring to about the founding of the club. However, in trying to find it I found this July 1971 article about the murder of Joe Colombo. It refreshed my memory in that it was Joe Colombo rather than Joe Bonnano who was the member.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52280772868_f85fa1a7d6_c.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/gp/golfcoursepix/02r6qj3GP0)Newburgh News July 9, 1971 (https://www.flickr.com/gp/golfcoursepix/02r6qj3GP0)


Another HJC that I don't believe has been listed in this thread is Crest Hills Country Club in Cincinnati, OH. It opened in 1967 and closed around 2005. I played it in 2000 at which time it was a host of the JCC Maccabi Games golf event. The membership was still predominantly Jewish at that time.