Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: JWinick on August 11, 2008, 02:23:18 PM
-
"That said I think that long putters are crap. "
- Kirk Gill.
Discuss.
-
Prepare for some legal brilliance, as shivas explains why these are OK, yet rangefinders are not, without being either hypocritical nor contradictory. I have full faith he will pull it off.
TH
-
Thank God no one has ever won a major using a long putter.
-
I don't have a long putter, though I do have a 50 inch 7 iron that I use when taking a drop. Don't use it for much else, but sure does get me away from most pine trees when taking an unplayable.
CPS
-
Thanks God no on has ever won a major using a long putter.
As opposed to major winners using them. I think Langer, Lyle, Lehman, Singh, Kite, Couples, Woosnam, Grady, Calc, Floyd and maybe even O'Meara turned to them at one point in their careers. I don't think Langer used one in either of his two Masters wins; Woosie maybe the closest when he came up just short (or long...) at Lytham a few years ago.
-
Prepare for some legal brilliance, as shivas explains why these are OK, yet rangefinders are not, without being either hypocritical nor contradictory. I have full faith he will pull it off.
TH
Come on Shivas, don't keep us waiting for this eagerly anticipated reply ;D
-
Go over and read the Bushnell Range Finder thread...he's already discussed this at length in there. (Page 10 or 11 I think) ;)
And from best I can tell as a Novice Rules Hack it seemed right!!
-
At 6'-6", I switched to a belly putter - for me a beltbuckle putter - to help with a bad back. The only other putter I ever used was a Bullseye. If I were 5'2" would that be consider a "long putter"? I usually chuckle when I see guys with the latest $$$ putter, knowing that they probably have a whole garage full of cast-offs that cost just as much. Ijust figure that it's not the putter but rather the putterer (defined as 'he who putts').
If anyone knows where to get a long driver - let me know.
-
Thanks God no on has ever won a major using a long putter.
Rocco came pretty close. Isn't he still using the long putter?
I liked Sam Snead's sidesaddle better, but they outlawed that one.
-
The game of golf, in part, is supposed to test your ability to make a putting stroke...Long putters and belly putters are fine if they are not allowed to be wedged against your body, thereby creating an artificial aid to the stroke...this is just my opinion, not the rules of golf....but the rules should be changed.
Bart
-
Go over and read the Bushnell Range Finder thread...he's already discussed this at length in there. (Page 10 or 11 I think) ;)
And from best I can tell as a Novice Rules Hack it seemed right!!
Kalen is correct - reply #306 (page 9) in that other thread.
And it's pretty good... not what I hoped for, but decent enough. I give it a C+.
TH
-
Actually, the sidesaddle was not outlawed. The croquet (between the legs) was outlawed. The sidesaddle where Snead did not straddle the line was developed as a reaction to the ruling on the croquet style.
-
The game of golf, in part, is supposed to test your ability to make a putting stroke...Long putters and belly putters are fine if they are not allowed to be wedged against your body, thereby creating an artificial aid to the stroke...this is just my opinion, not the rules of golf....but the rules should be changed.
Bart
Correct.
-
Thanks God no on has ever won a major using a long putter.
Rocco came pretty close. Isn't he still using the long putter?
I liked Sam Snead's sidesaddle better, but they outlawed that one.
Bill,
It's my belief that the USGA didn't outlaw the long putter because of "timing".
That "timing" being the proximity of the Ping lawsuit and bringing the long putter issue to the front burner.
I don't think that the USGA wanted to "double" up on litigation matters.
What's the difference between Snead's sidesaddle stroke and the long putter other than the direction the golfer faces ?
And, while we're at it, why was the paddle putter grip ruled non-conforming ?
-
Thanks God no on has ever won a major using a long putter.
Rocco came pretty close. Isn't he still using the long putter?
I liked Sam Snead's sidesaddle better, but they outlawed that one.
Bill:
Rocco was a longtime long-putter user who recently switched to traditional length. Seemed to have served him well at TPines.
-
Pat; Correct me if I am wrong but I don't recall Snead anchoring the putter to his body while executing the sidesaddle. Split grip with top hand on the butt of the club but not anchored to the best of my recollection. Clearly no anchor with the croquet.
-
In light of it not having been really discussed yet...
Is there really nowhere in the rules where it talks about the club being lodged in the body or outlawing a pivot point? If this is true, then Shiv has a helluva point.
-
In light of it not having been really discussed yet...
Is there really nowhere in the rules where it talks about the club being lodged in the body or outlawing a pivot point? If this is true, then Shiv has a helluva point.
For one who argues the spriit of the rules and what's best for the game like crazy in other places, he seems to rely on the letter of the law here a bit too much for my liking. Thus the C+. A weak passing grade.
But yes, there is no rule against anchoring the club.
-
In light of it not having been really discussed yet...
Is there really nowhere in the rules where it talks about the club being lodged in the body or outlawing a pivot point? If this is true, then Shiv has a helluva point.
Kalen:
Those of us who are against wedging long putters do not believe that the rules currently prohibit it...we believe that the rules should change to prohibit it.
-
I think I didn't go deep enough into what I meant in my original post.
I don't see where anchoring was even a spirit of the rules kind of thing. Where are the origins of this "spirit" so to speak? I mean if there was some concept like this, that would be fine, but not sure where this has even come from. Is there something that can be pointed out in terms if how a player is to grip the club? Is a baseball grip a violation of the spirit of the rules? How about a cross-handed grip?
-
I think putters should have a shorter limit on their length and should not be allowed to be anchored to the body. Using a long-putter is the most unnatural stroke made in the game. There is nothing golf-like in the act of swinging a long putter other than a ball comes off the face of it.
Jeff F.
-
Jeff,
I disagree. I think a putter swing is very similar to various type of chip shots around the green that can be played. So there is an application there. The arms follow a similar path, just not any hip twisting or wrist moving...well ideally I guess.
-
Intuitively, I believe long putters should not be allowed because they do allow the player to establish a stable base. In theory, this should reduce yips are erratic putting strokes.
However, I have softened by stance because it does appear that there is a trade-off to using the long putter. While it may help on short putts, it appears to hurt feel on longer ones.
Since many top players have adopted the long putter and then decided it didn't work for them, than perhaps it doesn't make the difference that you might think.
But, it's hard to argue that the long putter is a traditional way of putting. Shivas is hypocritical for using one while criticizing other technological advances that do not undermine the spirit of the game.
-
I think putters should have a shorter limit on their length and should not be allowed to be anchored to the body. Using a long-putter is the most unnatural stroke made in the game. There is nothing golf-like in the act of swinging a long putter other than a ball comes off the face of it.
Jeff,
I agree.
Rumor had it that the putter would have to be the shortest club in the bag.
Other rumors had it that attaching any club to the body would be banned.
Churning butter is not meant for the golf course.
And, my putting is by far the worst part of my game.
People near and far have suggested that I go to the long putter.
Some have even sent me long putters.
But, I feel it's contrary to the spirit of the game, and thus, they remain in my garage and are only used for garden tools.
-
To quote Moses (aka Charlton Heston)...
You can take my Belly Putter from my cold dead hands.
-
J - this has to be a first, a thread started on a comment I made, even if I wasn't the first on that other thread to make it !
One comment that I was going to make on that other thread that I'll make here instead is - There are an infinite number of things that aren't banned by the rules of golf, like wearing feather boas when you play. Just because range finders or long putters aren't specifically banned doesn't mean that I like them, or would use them. And OF COURSE the pros might use them - their job is to win golf tournaments, and that's a world I don't live in, and I'm not subject to the competitive pressures that fill their days. Like most people, I get to make a choice about the way I play golf, and I can't say I spend too awful much time analyzing it. I personally don't want to use a rangefinder, but the 150 markers don't bother me. Go figure. And the reality is that even if one of those long putters helped me to putt better, I wouldn't use one, because I think they're ridiculous, and because I believe that when you anchor the end of the club against your body, the resulting stroke is not a golf stroke. The rules of golf don't say that, I do. But I'm adding extra rules for only one person - myself. And if I don't like what someone else is doing, I might roll my eyes a bit, and you'll have to forgive me for that. But if someone gets more fun out of their game of golf using one of those crazy long putter thangs.........God bless 'em.
-
I don't like them and think they should be banned. For once Pat is right, they're contrary to the spirit of the game.
However, I don't think the necessary "ruin" the game. There are no great putters on tour using the long putter. If they were so effective, more players would be using them, instead they're an absolute last resort.
-
Pat; Correct me if I am wrong but I don't recall Snead anchoring the putter to his body while executing the sidesaddle. Split grip with top hand on the butt of the club but not anchored to the best of my recollection. Clearly no anchor with the croquet.
SL,
Snead's early style had him straddling the line of the putt with his left hand high and his right hand low.
When the USGA banned that method he moved the ball outside of his feet and held his feet together.
He later may have attached his upper hand/putter to his body, which is what evolved as putters got longer, either due to the strain regular putters put on one's back, or, the ability to better see the line from a more upright position.
But, it seems that Snead was largely responsible for the shift in putting style from traditional to croquet to sidesaddle to the straight forward style to the current style.
-
I think putters should have a shorter limit on their length and should not be allowed to be anchored to the body. Using a long-putter is the most unnatural stroke made in the game. There is nothing golf-like in the act of swinging a long putter other than a ball comes off the face of it.
Jeff,
I agree.
Rumor had it that the putter would have to be the shortest club in the bag.
Other rumors had it that attaching any club to the body would be banned.
Churning butter is not meant for the golf course.
And, my putting is by far the worst part of my game.
People near and far have suggested that I go to the long putter.
Some have even sent me long putters.
But, I feel it's contrary to the spirit of the game, and thus, they remain in my garage and are only used for garden tools.
Pat - so you gave up on the idea you fought so vociferously for not all that long ago - and that is, that you wanted to carry TWO putters, one long, one short, as shivas did?
I guess wanting to follow the spirit of the game won out in the end, huh? It can't possibly be because it just plain didn't work or is otherwise stupid, right?
;D ;D
-
I guess 12 pages in a different thread isn't enough. You had to bring your claims to another thread?
JWinick writes:
Shivas is hypocritical for using one while criticizing other technological advances that do not undermine the spirit of the game.
- Put on ruby red golf shoes
- close your eyes
- Click your heels together three times while saying "Distance devices don't undermine the spirit of the game."
- Open your eyes
Has the world changed?
Cheers,
Dan King
Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong.
--Terry Pratchett
-
Other rumors had it that attaching any club to the body would be banned
Since we are taking a poll here, I don't think you have legislate the length of clubs as there are time proven reasons why a wedge is 35 3/4 inches long ...
I do agree that attaching or bracing a club against your body should not be legal ... if USGA/R&A made that rule, then putters would return to a normal length.
-
Long putters are an outright admission that the player can't putt. I saw J.B. Holmes pull out his long putter on #17 at Oakland Hills yesterday and immediately delcared for either Paddy or Sergio to win.
The long putters may make it possible for a bad putter to putt tolerably well, but only just. If they were really an advantage everyone else would be using them.
The ruling in the Snead case was that putting astride the line of the putt should be illegal because it made it possible to use a true pendulum stroke taking the arms out of it altogether. If any new putter made the same thing possible, I presume it would be banned as well.
-
Dan:
I suppose if I'm irritating you to such an extent that you have to take cheap shots, then I must be on to something. I felt it was appropriate to create another topic.
My arguments are never rooted in a hostility to change, "American" golf, or technology. If you put me on a long putter jury, I would lean against them, but I am convinceable.
And, I would play with someone who used a long putter. Would you play with someone who used an electronic device? Who is the tolerant one?
I guess 12 pages in a different thread isn't enough. You had to bring your claims to another thread?
JWinick writes:
Shivas is hypocritical for using one while criticizing other technological advances that do not undermine the spirit of the game.
- Put on ruby red golf shoes
- close your eyes
- Click your heels together three times while saying "Distance devices don't undermine the spirit of the game."
- Open your eyes
Has the world changed?
Cheers,
Dan King
Fantasy is an exercise bicycle for the mind. It might not take you anywhere, but it tones up the muscles that can. Of course, I could be wrong.
--Terry Pratchett
-
Tom:
I would like to see an experiment to see if long putters create an unfair advantage. Unfortunately, only professional putters seem to try the long putter. That's not exactly a good sample. The fact that these poor putters have not cured their putting ills shows that it may not be the advantage that one might think.
I think the USGA should study the issue and make a decision. If research can prove that the long putter provides an unfair advantage, than they should be banned.
Long putters are an outright admission that the player can't putt. I saw J.B. Holmes pull out his long putter on #17 at Oakland Hills yesterday and immediately delcared for either Paddy or Sergio to win.
The long putters may make it possible for a bad putter to putt tolerably well, but only just. If they were really an advantage everyone else would be using them.
The ruling in the Snead case was that putting astride the line of the putt should be illegal because it made it possible to use a true pendulum stroke taking the arms out of it altogether. If any new putter made the same thing possible, I presume it would be banned as well.
-
Will you guys join me in a boycott of Tropic Thunder? A blog with an interesting take: http://www.patriciaebauer.com/2008/08/08/internet-trailer-simple-jack/
-
Long putters are an outright admission that the player can't putt. I saw J.B. Holmes pull out his long putter on #17 at Oakland Hills yesterday and immediately delcared for either Paddy or Sergio to win.
The long putters may make it possible for a bad putter to putt tolerably well, but only just. If they were really an advantage everyone else would be using them.
The ruling in the Snead case was that putting astride the line of the putt should be illegal because it made it possible to use a true pendulum stroke taking the arms out of it altogether. If any new putter made the same thing possible, I presume it would be banned as well.
TD, this is not about whether it is easier to putt with a long putter. Most people can putt great with a conventional putter. I have never even held a long putter and never will because I think they should not be allowed.
It is about helping players who cannot putt well with the short putter. That help comes in the form of anchoring the club into your body and letting the putter pendulum itself - taking the stroke out of this part of the game. That is why they should be banned.
What do you do if you have the yips with the driver? You struggle on, get worse, lose a lot of balls or quit! There is no outside agency or different way to swing a driver and there shouldn't be with putting.
Ask a few former Open champions and they will tell you.
-
Jim Franklin,
Orville Moody won the Senior U.S.Open with a long putter, if I'm not mistaken.
-
Pat - so you gave up on the idea you fought so vociferously for not all that long ago - and that is, that you wanted to carry TWO putters, one long, one short, as shivas did?
I experimented with carrying two putters, but, NEVER was one of them a long putter.
You're confused, which doesn't surprise me.
Of my two putters,
One putter was for LONG putts.
The other putter was for SHORT putts.
I guess wanting to follow the spirit of the game won out in the end, huh?
I never deviated from the spirit of the game.
You confused using a putter for LONG putts with a LONG putter.
I NEVER had a long putter in my bag.
It can't possibly be because it just plain didn't work or is otherwise stupid, right?
See my comments above.
You've confused using a putter for LONG putts with a LONG putter.
I NEVER used a LONG putter.
-
Dean:
I don't think any of the long putters I've seen are a true pendulum motion. You still have to guide the putter -- just with one hand instead of two.
I have never been a fan of the long putter at all, but I don't see the point of banning it at this point, especially if it might make even more people quit golf. It has not changed the balance of the playing field and I don't see any indication that it is about to change it.
-
JWinick writes:
And, I would play with someone who used a long putter. Would you play with someone who used an electronic device? Who is the tolerant one?
Did I ever say I wouldn't play with someone because they used some sort of electronic device, or was that just a strawman created because it was easy to knock down?
Cheers,
Dan King
I wish I could give you a lot of advice, based on my experience of winning political debates. But I don't have that experience. My only experience is at losing them.
--Richard M. Nixon
-
Pat - so you gave up on the idea you fought so vociferously for not all that long ago - and that is, that you wanted to carry TWO putters, one long, one short, as shivas did?
I experimented with carrying two putters, but, NEVER was one of them a long putter.
You're confused, which doesn't surprise me.
Of my two putters,
One putter was for LONG putts.
The other putter was for SHORT putts.
I guess wanting to follow the spirit of the game won out in the end, huh?
I never deviated from the spirit of the game.
You confused using a putter for LONG putts with a LONG putter.
I NEVER had a long putter in my bag.
It can't possibly be because it just plain didn't work or is otherwise stupid, right?
See my comments above.
You've confused using a putter for LONG putts with a LONG putter.
I NEVER used a LONG putter.
Patrick: fair enough, my memory was faulty, I apologize. Although one does wonder what putter was so much better for short putts as to require the length and vociferousness of that past argument... if not the long putter which our man shivas most definitely does use, and did argue is better for short putts... which one did it for you? That is, what style was it? Just curious.
Carrying two putters remains stupid, btw. But at least you're good here.
TH
-
Now THAT is what I was looking for. You are upgraded from C+ to B-.
Why the relatively poor grade still?
Because your argument fails to address B&I improvements that are contradictory to the spirit of the game. Reading this and only this, one would think you'd be OK with the Al Czervik putter, to take it to an extreme, so long as it was declared legal.
And you seem to approve the long putter ONLY BECAUSE IT'S CURRENTLY LEGAL, whereas you most definitely argue that the rules are wrong, or poorly applied, in the case of what you call the "cheater line." Thus you argue for a rules change, or correction in application there, (even though there is a decision out there saying the cheater line is ok - there is, correct?). You argue this for something you don't like.
But you fall on "it's ok by the rules" for the long putter - although many would argue - and have argued herein - that that too is against the spirit of the game, and thus requires a rules change.
I won't call you a hypocrite - you're not. But I will say you are selective in application of your arguments.
TH
-
Jon
Long Putters
If I am 4 ft tall and use a normal putter is that defined as using a Long Putter?
If I am 7 ft tall and use what is described as a Belly Putter can that be described as a normal putter for my height?
This debate has nothing to do with electronic aids.
-
Jeff,
I disagree. I think a putter swing is very similar to various type of chip shots around the green that can be played. So there is an application there. The arms follow a similar path, just not any hip twisting or wrist moving...well ideally I guess.
Kalen,
I have never held the butt end of my wedge to my chin or chest, with my left hand on the grip upside down, with my right hand below the grip or on the metal of the shaft in a claw position, and then proceed to swing the club perpendicular to the ground. I don't know what short game school you went to or method you employ but it sounds very unique to me. ;)
Jeff F.
-
Jeff,
I disagree. I think a putter swing is very similar to various type of chip shots around the green that can be played. So there is an application there. The arms follow a similar path, just not any hip twisting or wrist moving...well ideally I guess.
Kalen,
I have never held the butt end of my wedge to my chin or chest, with my left hand on the grip upside down, with my right hand below the grip or on the metal of the shaft in a claw position, and then proceed to swing the club perpendicular to the ground. I don't know what short game school you went to or method you employ but it sounds very unique to me. ;)
Jeff F.
That's definitely Youtube worthy, IMO.
-
I've read all the preceding rules about placing no marks for putting and it's clear the intent is not to allow placing marks on anything away from the ball. If the ruling bodies of golf (both of them, the one on the other side of the pond has no reason to cater to American icons) don't consider it a travesty of the spirit nor a violation of the rules of the game, then I don't think anyone's contrary opinion is of much import, except to themselves.
The line on the ball, the long putter, the sand wedge, etc., have the same history in the game, none are in violation of the rules or the spirit of the game.
-
Jeff,
It certainly takes it the extreme, but then again, we've seen all kinds of crazy stances in golf up to and including the croquet.
I have a buddy who got so desperate he used to grip way down on the shaft and almost had his short putter jammed in his chest. Even Jack N used to have quite the crouch as he lined up his putts.
I think when we start getting around to banning how people swing the club its a slippery slope and next thing you know Furyk's swing is banned because its one that only a mother could love!! Perhaps a bit extreme but thats what GCA is about right? Taking things to thier illogical conclusion? ;D
I do think Tom D has it right for what its worth. Guys who have to use these are rarely tearing it up and they aren't gaining anything. Being a good putter myself I know I never mind seeing someone use the broom, and if anything I feel pity....in a good way. ;)
Now if we can just invent something to help me with my horrible tee shots!!! :'(
-
I've read all the preceding rules about placing no marks for putting and it's clear the intent is not to allow placing marks on anything away from the ball. If the ruling bodies of golf (both of them, the one on the other side of the pond has no reason to cater to American icons) don't consider it a travesty of the spirit nor a violation of the rules of the game, then I don't think anyone's contrary opinion is of much import, except to themselves.
The line on the ball, the long putter, the sand wedge, etc., have the same history in the game, none are in violation of the rules or the spirit of the game.
Jim,
I'd disagree with you on this.
Just because a ruling body has decided one way, which they might reverse, doesn't mean that it's within the spirit of the game.
The USGA has acquiesced to lowering their standards in an effort to appeal to more people.
I believe that it was the high standards and inherent challenge of the game that led to its popularity, not the dumbing down of the game by appealing to the lowest common denominator.
I&B have negatively affected the game, the cost of the game and the field of play.
When I see driver heads the size of tennis rackets I know that someone in Far Hills has let the horse out of the barn or the camel into the tent, take your pick.
Just because it's legal to marry your second cousin in the State of ____ doesn't mean it's within the spirit of being righteous. ;D
-
Tom Huckaby,
I have old Tommy Armour IMGT, IMG and other blade putters that I used for decades. I still putt well with them from "distance"
While I used to make almost everything from 5 feet and in, there was a time when I was 50-50 from 18 inches.
So, I found a putter that seemed to work well from 5 feet and in, but, I didn't have the same feel for longer putts with it.
Enter my two putter system
Now, I'm putting better from 5 feet and in and I've adapted to longer putts with the same putter.
So, for now, I'm back to one putter.
But, I still carry a 2 and 3 iron and only one wood, my 3-wood.
I tend to be a traditionalist.
-
Pat,
I wasn't trying to paint with a wide brush, only the few issues, i.e. long putter, marking the ball, sand wedge.
I don't believe the rules bodies are inviolable sanctuaries for the spirit of the game, but they haven't done it any harm by allowing the above.
-
Tom Huckaby,
I have old Tommy Armour IMGT, IMG and other blade putters that I used for decades. I still putt well with them from "distance"
While I used to make almost everything from 5 feet and in, there was a time when I was 50-50 from 18 inches.
So, I found a putter that seemed to work well from 5 feet and in, but, I didn't have the same feel for longer putts with it.
Enter my two putter system
Now, I'm putting better from 5 feet and in and I've adapted to longer putts with the same putter.
So, for now, I'm back to one putter.
But, I still carry a 2 and 3 iron and only one wood, my 3-wood.
I tend to be a traditionalist.
Excellent.
And a traditionalist you are... but only to a certain extent. No pure traditionalist would ever think of carrying two putters.
;)
-
Thank God no one has ever won a major using a long putter.
Why? Because they would then be banned? ;D
If that's the case, I hope no one uses a long putter to win a major as well.
I really don't know why guys have a problem with the long putter...
* They are currently legal to use.
* Everyone is allowed to use one
If it was such a HUGE advantage, why aren't more of the best players playing them? You would think that if a player was more talented, and the long putter was so easy to use, that same player would have it in the bag. These pro's play for a ton of $$, don't you think they'd want every advantage possible?
-
Jeff,
It certainly takes it the extreme, but then again, we've seen all kinds of crazy stances in golf up to and including the croquet.
I have a buddy who got so desperate he used to grip way down on the shaft and almost had his short putter jammed in his chest. Even Jack N used to have quite the crouch as he lined up his putts.
I think when we start getting around to banning how people swing the club its a slippery slope and next thing you know Furyk's swing is banned because its one that only a mother could love!! Perhaps a bit extreme but thats what GCA is about right? Taking things to thier illogical conclusion? ;D
I do think Tom D has it right for what its worth. Guys who have to use these are rarely tearing it up and they aren't gaining anything. Being a good putter myself I know I never mind seeing someone use the broom, and if anything I feel pity....in a good way. ;)
Now if we can just invent something to help me with my horrible tee shots!!! :'(
Kalen,
I have no problem with different swings (i.e. Furyk, Tommy Gainey, etc.). I don't think using a long putter is a stroke, it's a brush, IMO. With no other club is there such a variance in length as the putter. While it is true that generally poor putters resort to it, that doesn't mean it's ok. Why shouldn't poor drivers of the ball be allowed to put rockets on the ball? That argument doesn't work for me. By the way, that is my intellectual property so no one better try to steal that idea! ;D
Remember, this is just opinion, but I think the "stroke" made with a long putter resembles nothing like a traditional "stroke". While equipment and golf courses have changed the one thing that has remained the same is the fact that a player makes a stroke from the side of the ball with the club in his hands unattached to his body. I know the Rules, nor the definition of a stroke, don't address this but I feel it's something that is very un-golf like. I feel it should be addressed and agree with Mr. Mucci that it is the continuous dumbing down of the skill level necessary to play that takes appeal away from the game. (Range Finders not included ;D)
Jeff F.
-
JSlonis,
How do you reconcile banning Sam Snead from putting his way and the permitted use of the long putter ?
-
Thank God no one has ever won a major using a long putter.
Why? Because they would then be banned? ;D
If that's the case, I hope no one uses a long putter to win a major as well.
I really don't know why guys have a problem with the long putter...
* They are currently legal to use.
* Everyone is allowed to use one
If it was such a HUGE advantage, why aren't more of the best players playing them? You would think that if a player was more talented, and the long putter was so easy to use, that same player would have it in the bag. These pro's play for a ton of $$, don't you think they'd want every advantage possible?
For the record, I have no problem with people using long putters... for now. It is allowed under the Rules and therefore I don't look down on anyone using them. However, I think it's an issue that should be addressed.
I have seen plenty of guys continue their career, professionally, once they got the yips with the putter by using a long putter. I have lost tournaments and been edged out of qualifiers by these guys. Would they have made it or won tournaments had they not been able to use one? Maybe. I hold nothing against these guys as they were playing under the Rules. But, I do think it takes the touch and nerves out of putting.
My dad has the chip-yips..... BAD. REAL BAD. He is a 1 handicap and I cringe every time I see him try to chip. He now putts from everywhere. I mean EVERYWHERE! Rough, short-sided, 30 yards out, you name it. Should he be entitled to create a club that somehow lets him take his nerves and touch out of chipping while making a very untraditional stroke? I think not. It's against the Spirit of the Game, IMO.
Jeff F.
-
OK, TomH, F you!!
...On the 2 putter thing, that is..
You want logic? Ok, I'll give it tou you.
In the entire history of the game, the vast majority of all B + I advancements were not legal before they were invented. Rather, they were radical departures from the "status quo".
The long putter is no differrent. It's a radical departute in length, but in no other aspect.
The fact that it's purportedly easier to anchor to the body has yet to be proven. In point of FACT, it isn't.
I can just as easily anchor a sand wedge to my body as a long putter. Actually, (and again) in point of fact, it's actually easier to amchor than a long putter because it's anchorable to more parts of the body that the long putter.
So the real issue here isn't the implement itself. It's how it's used.
And if we're going to start banning how implements are used, well then:
1. I'm banning Gib's swing immediately
2. Same with Shelly Solow's
And the same with:
3. Charles Barkley
4. John Daly
5. Arnie
6. You
7. Me
The fact that each of us doesn't anchor the club is IRRELEVENT.
There's no rule of golf against that.
NOR HAS THERE EVER BEEN!!
Noe should there ever be.
Get the ball in the hole. Far and sure. That's all it's ever been about.
And that's all it should ever be about.
There's a HUGE difference between B and I that improves EVERYBODY's game and B and I that improves SOME people's games
The latter should be banned; the former should not be.
Shivas, did I just read you correctly? "the latter should be banned"- an implement that improves SOME peoples games ( NOT everyones games)? Would that be the long putter????? ???
-
Tom Huckaby,
Desperate men think of desperate measures.
When I played with you, Ran, Neil, Bob and the others my old Tommy Armour blade was in fine form.
My real putting troubles stem from breaking my wrist playing basketball a few years ago, and then, while trying to rehab it and play golf, I became very wristy at impact, versus my old straight armed putting stroke.
If I could put my right wrist back in a cast my putting would surely get better, but, my long game would suffer.
-
My dad has the chip-yips..... BAD. REAL BAD. He is a 1 handicap and I cringe every time I see him try to chip. He now putts from everywhere. I mean EVERYWHERE! Rough, short-sided, 30 yards out, you name it. Should he be entitled to create a club that somehow lets him take his nerves and touch out of chipping while making a very untraditional stroke? I think not. It's against the Spirit of the Game, IMO.
Jeff F.
Odyssey Putter Wedge ought to do the trick for your dad!
Actually, they should consider making the long-shafted Odyssey Putter Wedge.
Shivas - Would that violate the spirit? Long-shaft for easy anchoring. The convenience of the putting alignment aids. The ball pops off and rolls like a putter with a little loft. The hybrid-lie base of the club without the hot face. The loft of a 7-iron.
-
The ruling in the Snead case was that putting astride the line of the putt should be illegal because it made it possible to use a true pendulum stroke taking the arms out of it altogether. If any new putter made the same thing possible, I presume it would be banned as well.
Putting croquet style and sidesadle is almost exactly the same. Its easy to demonstrate. Set up and swing a putter putt croquet style....now simply move your right foot next to your left and repeat. Virtually no difference.
It is a true pendulum stroke...it's legal...and i'm surprised its not used by tour pros
-
I don't have a long putter, though I do have a 50 inch 7 iron that I use when taking a drop. Don't use it for much else, but sure does get me away from most pine trees when taking an unplayable.
CPS
Clint, I hope you don't have any club other than a putter that is over 48 inches, which is the maximum for all clubs other than the putter.
As a quick look through Jefferey Ellis' book The Golf Club will show, there really is nothing new in golf club design. Every kind of club you can think of has already been invented and either approved or banned over the years by the USGA and R&A. While his book doesn't talk about shaft length, concentrating more on the club heads, I'm sure that long putters were around back at the turn of the 20th century.
I wrote in another thread that I'm not so concerned about the length of the putter, but I would like to see the bottom of putters be required to be flat and maintain the 10 degree angle with the shaft. The \_/ shaped bottom does allow the user of a long putter to defeat that 10 degree angle and achieve more of a pendulum stroke.
-
I don't have a long putter, though I do have a 50 inch 7 iron that I use when taking a drop. Don't use it for much else, but sure does get me away from most pine trees when taking an unplayable.
CPS
Clint, I hope you don't have any club other than a putter that is over 48 inches, which is the maximum for all clubs other than the putter.
As a quick look through Jefferey Ellis' book The Golf Club will show, there really is nothing new in golf club design. Every kind of club you can think of has already been invented and either approved or banned over the years by the USGA and R&A. While his book doesn't talk about shaft length, concentrating more on the club heads, I'm sure that long putters were around back at the turn of the 20th century.
I wrote in another thread that I'm not so concerned about the length of the putter, but I would like to see the bottom of putters be required to be flat and maintain the 10 degree angle with the shaft. The \_/ shaped bottom does allow the user of a long putter to defeat that 10 degree angle and achieve more of a pendulum stroke.
Sadly, I was bluffing :)
The future of further distances is held in the launch height / spin rate ratio generated by new shaft technology, IMO. It also has the greatest chance to screw up a golfer because a low spinning shaft in the wrong hands will decrease distance in a big way. Great time to be a good clubfitter.
Clint
-
Patrick:
I understand, believe me I do. Desparate times call for desparate measures, for sure. Just explain that to our friend shivas, who claims that using two putters is no sign of desparation, but rather the best and most proper way to play this game.
Shivas:
Much better. You're up to B+. But you still go a LONG way trying to convince us - and I believe yourself - of a consistency here.
TH
-
I think the real solution would be just to make a ruling that no club in the bag can be longer than 44 inches. That would take care of the longest putters AND the long drivers at the same time. Probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the distance increase from new drivers is based on the longer shafts.
-
I think the real solution would be just to make a ruling that no club in the bag can be longer than 44 inches. That would take care of the longest putters AND the long drivers at the same time. Probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the distance increase from new drivers is based on the longer shafts.
I think this is in the ballpark of taking care of the issue. 45 inches is probably more realistic but I would go to 44 in a second as my driver is 44. ;D
Jeff F.
-
Oh, stop.
Another "we are the world", "one size fits all", "we're all the same" rule?
To hell with Bill Laimbeer and Randy Johnson .... let them eat cake.
Since when did tall guys join rich guys as the only people against whom discrimination is OK? ;D
Uh... Shivas...
I'm 6'3".
I guess I'm a self-loathing, legislating liberal right?
Jeff F.
-
JSlonis,
How do you reconcile banning Sam Snead from putting his way and the permitted use of the long putter ?
Pat,
Honestly I've never thought about reconciling it or even having to. Wasn't Snead's original method banned because of him straddling the line of the putt?
Whatever the past history is it is. During my time, the long putter has been allowed and I have been using it. Until they tell me I can't, I'll continue to use it. I've messed around with the Heavy Putter and I can actually make a decent stroke with that method, so if need be, I have something to fall back on.
-
[quote author=Jim If it was such a HUGE advantage, why aren't more of the best players playing them? You would think that if a player was more talented, and the long putter was so easy to use, that same player would have it in the bag. These pro's play for a ton of $$, don't you think they'd want every advantage possible?
I can't see that the use of the long putter gives someone an advantage over a golfer that doesn't use one, generally speaking. I don't know that most people would putt better using one than they do using a conventional stroke.
The whole purpose of that club is to allow folks that can't putt well using a conventional stroke another option to try, to see if they're able to putt better using that method. And in my mind, anchoring the end of the club against your body and swinging the club from there is not a golf stroke. If you can't putt very well using a convential stroke then, for my money, you're just not a very good putter. Just like a lot of other golfers aren't good iron players, or just aren't good out of the sand, etc. Of course, clubmakers have helped out a lot of those folks with new drivers and cavity-backs and space-age materials and the like. But the long putter isn't a technological advance, it's a reworking of a golf stroke into something else. It's not just holding a club in your hands and hitting a ball. It's different.
But long putters ARE legal, according to the rulemakers, and so anyone can use them if it helps their game. I'm not big on calling for bans, or the like. I just don't like long putters, personally. But it's a Big World out there......
-
Shivas - well reasoned, well-written, well thought-out post.
I can't disagree with a thing you said.
but I still wouldn't use one of those long putters, and one of those anchored strokes, for the reasons I mentioned above. And you're of course correct about the weird strokes you sometimes have to make to get out of a jam. I just haven't yet gotten to the point where my ball being on the green strikes me as a jam I need to get out of by using such a weird stroke. I get where you're coming from, though, and can't really argue with your logic.
And even though my brand new GolfClubAtlas mini golf bag comes with a little tool on it to allow me to create a cheater line on my golf ball, I don't use that either !
-
OK, so screw it. You've sold me. I have no problem with anchoring the club against the body.
But what say you about these two issues:
a) Long putters are wholly unnatural. Split grips are illegal, and many other oddly shaped clubs are declared illegal, and there has always been a spirit about what clubs should and shouldn't be. Do you really find a long putter to be in the same spirit as a normal club used in the normal spirit of the game? I sure don't.
b) Long putters are dorky as hell and you might as well wear bermuda shorts and long socks or lederhausen, topped with a rakish beret. You give the same effect.
;D
-
"There are lots of ways to make a stroke under the rules of golf that don't constitute what most of us would consider a normal stroke."
So Shivas - do I understand you correctly in your defence of the long putter, i.e. that the rules of golf are not always synonymous with the spirit of the game, nor need they be?
Peter
-
shivas:
No surprise on either front. But you keep telling yourself that results are ALL that it's about. Franklin I'msure enjoyed the result but also understood it occurred via dorkiness.
This is all also rather odd to hear from someone who rants against putter covers and other accessories, but well... consistency has never been your forte'.
Show me a guy who uses a long putter and I'll show you a desparate man who in his heart of hearts sure wishes he didn't.
But we've covered all this before.
;)
-
See, here's the thing:
There are lots of ways to make a stroke under the rules of golf that don't constitute what most of us would consider a normal stroke.
I mentioned putting the club behind your back and swinging with the butt end of the club lodged between your butt cheeks.
Nothing illegal about that.
You can chop a ball lefty backwards from up against a tree.
Nothing illegal about that.
You can even anchor a club against your arm or chest and try to hit a driver one-handed if you want.
Nothing illegal about that.
There's nothing illegal about putting your arm way down the shaft of a wedge and chipping Bernard Langer-style the way he used to affix the putter against his left arm with his right hand.
Hell, you can even try to do that with a driver if you're so inclined.
A gymnast could do a handstand, bending over backwards, picking up the club and lodging it between her toes, and making the stroke with her feet.
In fact, there's nothing illegal about literally letting go of the club in the downdwing just before impact, in essence, throwing the clubhead at the ball!
Each of these is a legal stroke.
So what I don't get is why all the relatively-recent hullabaloo in the last decade about anchoring the clubhead against the chest or chin when putting?
You can do that any time you want to through the green with any club in the bag.
Moreover, it's not the only wierd stoke that doesn't strike most people as a customary stroke.
Next time you're up against a tree, thinking about hitting a lefty, one handed backhanded through your legs shot off one knee (because that's the only shot you've got) to get the ball back in the fairway, consider whether it satisfies your sensibilities as a traditional stroke...
Shivas,
Can't think of a better way to say it than that. It really is different strokes for different folks.
This thread is D-U-N....game, set, and match with this post!
-
Kalen, please. One would think you're a shivas butt-buddy.
Yes, he addressed that anchoring the club isn't against the rules, and really shouldn't be. I can accept and live with that.
But he does not address his inconsitencies, nor the very well known and accepted dorkiness issues. Oh sure this thread can be D-U-N if one either wants to kiss shivas' ass or just address one part of whether it should or shouldn't be made illegal... but it remains wide open as to shivas' lack of consistency and whether said clubs really do conform to the spirit of how the game ought to be played.
TH
-
Tom please....
I can point out at least half a dozen logical fallacies in your last post alone. They're all right here. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
I've disagreed with Shivas on plenty of his crazy ideas up to and including the notorious Ted Robinson being one of the greatest archies of all time.
If calling me a butt-buddy makes you feel better, then thats not a problem. :P I'm secure with my manhood! But i'm not sure how that helps your arguement. Perhaps you need to take it a step further and call me a pedophile. That'll really convince everyone that I'm wrong and your right. ;D
-
Kalen:
Look, it was meant to be primarily in jest.
BUT...I remain FAR from convinced that the use of the long putter is in line with the spirit of what golf should be. His post may have convinced you. All it convinced me is that anchoring the club is not contrary to such. Just remember that's only one part of this.
Only a butt-buddy would take that post as closing this issue. So one either lives with the title or realizes that he closed just one part of it... if he did that.
TH
-
Tom,
Its all good, understood the post was in jest, if you can't bust your buddies chops who can you right? ;)
The point I'm making is I don't care that Shivas made the post, or Tom Paul, or anyone else for that matter. I felt it was a very compelling reason(s) as to why there really is no issue with a long putter.
Cuz so far in this thread, I'm seeing mostly only really good reasons why a long putter works, and not much why its not.
So by all means lets list the reasons how it violates the spirit of the game.
1) Its abnormal - Fine, lets ban Jim Furyk as well because his is very abnormal. And while we're at it, throw me in there as well because god knowsI have a much worse swing than his.
Thats about all I can think of...pretty short list! :P
-
Kalen:
I find that a club so much longer than what one normally uses for a particular part of this game is contrary to the spirit of the rules. On top of that, the odd grip is contrary to such also. It has little to do - for me - with the way the club is used - shivas has convinced me there, and in fact I never found that to be a problem - it has to do with what the club looks like.
To me that's enough to at the very least keep this issue open, as shivas did not address this at all.
TH
-
Shivas -
it was interesting to watch you refining your thoughts (via edits) on post #81. Good post. But something just doesn't feel right - and that is, while golf may always have been, in part, a game of judgement, it's also been a game of soft hands and good feel and nice touch and a combination of power and finesse when it came to ball striking and/or putting. I'll grant you that there have been a lot of funky swings and a lot of funky bits of equipment over the years, but unless I'm mistaken all of those clubs and swings had one thing in common, i.e. the only thing touching the club were those soft hands with the good feel and nice touch. The spirit of the game has always recognized that it wasn't enough to be able to hammer a ball 250 yards; you also had to putt out a tricky and nerve-wracking downhill 2-footer, and that it 'counted' just as much as the drive. Holding onto that putter with just one's hands was part of the test, traditionally.
No?
Peter
-
The center-shafted offset putter.
Don't forget the Ping inspired cavity back perimeter weighted putter ... I think the USGA/R&A screwed up by allowing the putter to be different, in the neck, hosel area, then the other clubs ...
-
Shivas - I was editing my post as you were posting your response. Does it change your pov at all?
Peter
-
How many here haven't a lie up against a tree or fence and had to play a left handed shot with the club turned upside down?
Or had a ball so far above your feet in an awkward stance that you had to grip the club way down on the shaft and have the grip of your club nestled up against your arm?
Hell one of the coolest instructional tips I ever saw was chi-chi Rodrigues blasting a ball out of a bunker with the toe of his putter to combat horrifically buried lies.
I would think this all fits in with the spirt of the adventure of the game, to improvise and make up shots to find a way to get it done. Putting balls from 100 yards off the green. Hitting 120 yard 4 irons into a crazy headwind. I put all this stuff in the same category right along with the long putter....just another way to get it done without resorting to a foot wedge.
In what even remotely possible way does any of this violate the spirit of the game?
If we want to talk about a club that revolutionzed the game, lets talk about the sand recovery iron. Its my understanding that created quite the uproar when it came out and people cried foul. I guess for all of us to avoid being hypocrites we must immediately turn in our sand and lob wedges. ;D
-
Shivas,
The long putter looks gay. That's the single biggest argument against it.
-
Sure I did.
The sand wedge.
Let me add the metal wood.
Let me add cavity backs.
The center-shafted offset putter.
You just have length issues.
Can't say I blame you. You're Irish. ;D
Now that was classic and I have to get you up to A-.
However... length is just the only issue I had time to address in my post to Kalen before I ran off to a meeting.
What about these:
a) greater ease for pendulum stroke due to length and construction - is this an unfair advantage and/or unnatural? And be careful, remember how you trumpet how effective these things are....
b) The long putter looks gayer than gay. Well said JW.
I'm sure there are others but I now have to hit the road.
But in summation... heck bottom line is I don't really think these are contrary to the rules nor the spirit of the game, personally. I just also don't believe it's a fully closed issue. Many wise people do find them contrary to the spirit, for many reasons, and their voices are equal to that of shivas. My main take here is not to argue this issue - hell I feel sorry for the users of these Gayrods and like to play against them as it wins me money, so I hope they do remain legal - but rather to cut off this unearned shivas' praise at the pass. He doesn't deserve it, outside of for that last great post directed to me.
;D
-
Kalen - you can't stick a putter in your gut and act like a grandfather clock and say that it has any parallel whatsoever to any other club or type of swing the game has ever known (or if known, not mocked mercilessly). Not that this MEANS anything - for me, the spirit of the game is one thing (and personal) while the rules of the game are another (public).
Tom H - what you said in your last post. I check into these threads mostly on the off chance that Shivas hits a home run or throws a knock-out punch. On the other hand, I know when he's on the ropes, cause he starts ;D ;D
Peter
;D
-
See, here's the thing:
There are lots of ways to make a stroke under the rules of golf that don't constitute what most of us would consider a normal stroke.
I mentioned putting the club behind your back and swinging with the butt end of the club lodged between your butt cheeks.
Nothing illegal about that.
Impossible. Never happened and won't ever be used by anyone for more than a one-time joke.
You can chop a ball lefty backwards from up against a tree.
Nothing illegal about that.
True. But it's not anchored by the butt end against your body.
You can even anchor a club against your arm or chest and try to hit a driver one-handed if you want.
Nothing illegal about that.
Never have I seen this. It doesn't wok and no one will ever resort to hitting a driver in this manner unless they are an amputee or paralyzed. I would argue that it would be found to be more effective to swing the club one-handed anyway by those only using one arm.
There's nothing illegal about putting your arm way down the shaft of a wedge and chipping Bernard Langer-style the way he used to affix the putter against his left arm with his right hand.
True. But the whole club still swings. The butt of the grip stays anchored against the chin or chest of those using a long putter. This isn't true for the Langer type stroke.
Hell, you can even try to do that with a driver if you're so inclined.
You could but no one would ever do it unless chipping from a closely mown area. Show me one golfer who hits their driver like this.
A gymnast could do a handstand, bending over backwards, picking up the club and lodging it between her toes, and making the stroke with her feet.
Ridiculous, but true again. Never would this be used. It's impossible. You know it, I know it, and anyone with a sane mind knows it.
In fact, there's nothing illegal about literally letting go of the club in the downdwing just before impact, in essence, throwing the clubhead at the ball!
Once again true but would maybe happen once in a lifetime by 1 out of 1,000,000 people. You can't be serious. If this was found to be the new revolution in swinging it would probably be banned by the governing bodies of golf as it seems quite dangerous.
Each of these is a legal stroke.
In theory. Fortunately, no one does them sans the Langer-style putting motion of the past which, I find completely legal as it used a reasonable length putter in its application. Also, the butt end is not anchored to the body.
So what I don't get is why all the relatively-recent hullabaloo in the last decade about anchoring the clubhead against the chest or chin when putting?
Because it works and it is the most unnatural stroke in comparison to what people have done for at least 150 years in regards to putting. It uses a piece of equipment that is @ 150% longer than it's counterpart. No other club has ever been allowed to be lengthened by that margin and the putter is the only club that could work by doing so. It is a very large departure from what has been the norm for nearly the entire known history of the game. It resembles no other stroke in the history of golf.
You can do that any time you want to through the green with any club in the bag.
It doesn't work with other clubs in any realistic or applicable way.
Moreover, it's not the only wierd stoke that doesn't strike most people as a customary stroke.
Weird isn't the argument here. It is completely inconsistent with a traditional stroke of any kind. It is the only club used to anchor the butt end of the club to the body.
Next time you're up against a tree, thinking about hitting a lefty, one handed backhanded through your legs shot off one knee (because that's the only shot you've got) to get the ball back in the fairway, consider whether it satisfies your sensibilities as a traditional stroke...
It's traditional in the sense that it is a proper play sometimes but never used as a common stroke. It is also swung free of being anchored to the body.
Jeff F.
-
You can bury me with my 46 1/4 inch Big Sur. By the way, I'm still looking for a back up......any of you guys have one laying around?
-
This is from the Rules of Golf Equipment in the the USGA Rule book...
Appendix II, 1a goes on to state that:
The club must not be substantially different from the traditionally and customary form and make. The club must be composed of a shaft and a head. All parts must be fixed so that the club is one unit, and it must have no external attachments except as otherwise permitted by the Rules.
In explaining this part of the Rule, it is easier to divide into the following four sections:
(i) Traditional and Customary Form and Make.
The phrase “traditional and customary form and make” does not mean that clubs must look the same as they did 100 years ago. If so, steel shafts and metal woodheads would not conform to the Rules. As noted in the introduction to this guide, it is not the purpose of the Rules to stifle innovation.
In practice, the “Traditional and Customary Rule” is rarely used — having been largely superseded by the “Plain in Shape” Rule (see Design of Clubs, Section 4b). However, it is still applied in those cases where the Equipment Standards Committee decides that a particular design deviates from traditional appearance and/or construction standards, but which may not be covered by a more specific provision within the Rules.
You can read this so many ways. I think I could argue that a long-putter could be banned under these words. However, getting into a debate on the written word with a lawyer is a tricky task. Let me think about whether or no I want to go down it.
Jeff F.
-
You don't. ;)
And here's why: elsewhere in the rules, they speak to length of clubs. This means that the USGA is capable of prescribing length limits. They did it elsewhere. Had they intended for form and make to include length, they certainly could have said so here. They did not. Thus, the intent of this section was not to limit size.
They DO limit the length of clubs... except the putter. Why? Explain. Why should this not be revised? Putters could be 10 feet tall. Does this seem logical? If we ever play I am going to make a putter that is 10 feet tall and I will use my foot to swing it.
Jeff F.
-
Jeff,
If you do ever play a match against Shivas, here's my advice:
1. Play nice and slow, preferably with a complex but repeatable pre-shot routine.
2. Use you rangefinder to get your (and his) distances to the pin and all other important landmarks.
3. Use a bright red or yellow putter cover and leave it somewhere on the green while you putt.
4. Make sure your pre-putt routine involves meticulously aligning your cheater line to help you aim.
5. Before holing out, make a snide remark about people who use long putters.
6. Occasionally mix in a Caddyshack line, but intentionally mess up at least one of the words.
7. Ask him if the two of you are playing "golf" (small g) or "Golf" (large G).
8. By him a bratwurst at the turn.
9 & 8. ;)
(Please mail me half your winnings.)
-
So, admit that you are slightly embarassed by using a long putter. I know you can make some things look good, but I don't know if you have it in you to make the long putter look good.
Chris, you know me waaayyyy too well.....
Well done!
But you forgot to tell him to bring his camera and snap a bunch of pictures during the round....from his cart.
-
I think Rodney looks better with his putter than you do with your long putter. Of course, was Rodney's putter a long putter too???
-
Jeff,
If you do ever play a match against Shivas, here's my advice:
1. Play nice and slow, preferably with a complex but repeatable pre-shot routine.
2. Use you rangefinder to get your (and his) distances to the pin and all other important landmarks.
3. Use a bright red or yellow putter cover and leave it somewhere on the green while you putt.
4. Make sure your pre-putt routine involves meticulously aligning your cheater line to help you aim.
5. Before holing out, make a snide remark about people who use long putters.
6. Occasionally mix in a Caddyshack line, but intentionally mess up at least one of the words.
7. Ask him if the two of you are playing "golf" (small g) or "Golf" (large G).
8. By him a bratwurst at the turn.
9 & 8. ;)
(Please mail me half your winnings.)
Mastercard moment - Priceless
-
Jeff,
If you do ever play a match against Shivas, here's my advice:
1. Play nice and slow, preferably with a complex but repeatable pre-shot routine.
2. Use you rangefinder to get your (and his) distances to the pin and all other important landmarks.
3. Use a bright red or yellow putter cover and leave it somewhere on the green while you putt.
4. Make sure your pre-putt routine involves meticulously aligning your cheater line to help you aim.
5. Before holing out, make a snide remark about people who use long putters.
6. Occasionally mix in a Caddyshack line, but intentionally mess up at least one of the words.
7. Ask him if the two of you are playing "golf" (small g) or "Golf" (large G).
8. By him a bratwurst at the turn.
9 & 8. ;)
(Please mail me half your winnings.)
Mastercard moment - Priceless
Agreed. That is priceless advice! ;D
Jeff F.
-
Hey Shivas,
Any time your in Mass and you want to take me and my gayrod on, just let me know.
-
Well. Adam Scott leads the Open using a long putter.
Please ruling authorities - ban the damn things. They remind me of the crap you see in bowling alleys these days. Allow them and you may as well abdicate because this could ruin our game.
What is next? Gloves that keep your wrists in the proper position?
Please. Kill the damn things.
-
Well. Adam Scott leads the Open using a long putter.
Please ruling authorities - ban the damn things. They remind me of the crap you see in bowling alleys these days. Allow them and you may as well abdicate because this could ruin our game.
What is next? Gloves that keep your wrists in the proper position?
Please. Kill the damn things.
How will this ruin the game exactly?
Yes, I use a long putter but I really don't see what all the fuss is about.
-
Jamie,
I now use a long putter, had I done so 15 years ago you would have read about me ;D
However, I think the belly and long putter should be banned, or, affixing the putter to your body should be banned.
I'm more of a traditionalist and want to keep golf from looking like Croquette
-
You should not be able to anchor a club against your body. I don't care what length putter someone uses, but anchoring a club during the act of striking the ball should be illegal.
-
A long putter is just admitting you're a bad putter. But the line gets crossed when it's used to get relief or penalty drops.
It's one thing to tell the field you're terrified of five footers, but have some self respect and use your driver to take a drop.
-
Im a new long putter convert (thanks Jamie!), but no part of the club touches any part of my body other than my hands when I make a stroke. The back of my left hand near my thumb joint touches near my sternum. Is this considered "anchoring" the same as a belly butter?
-
Im a new long putter convert (thanks Jamie!), but no part of the club touches any part of my body other than my hands when I make a stroke. The back of my left hand near my thumb joint touches near my sternum. Is this considered "anchoring" the same as a belly butter?
Absolutely!
-
You should not be able to anchor a club against your body. I don't care what length putter someone uses, but anchoring a club during the act of striking the ball should be illegal.
+1
-
+2. Ban the damn things
-
What ban would you like to see? Should the length of the putter be regulated or the technique of anchoring be regulated?
How do you define anchoring? How would the rule be written?
And on what grounds should the rule be banned? Because crappy putters should have to deal with it? Crappy iron players get to hit hybrids, so I'm not sure why only crappy putters should suffer.
I'm concerned about this because I can hit my muscleback long irons but I'm a crappy putter and want to start putting sidesaddle, but can't decide if I want to risk investing in a 42-inch putter (so not really THAT long) that may be illegal soon.
Will I look ridiculous? Of course, but I already wear True Clownshoes and regular golf shoes, so I still figure my best chance of looking awesome on a golf course is to shoot a low score.
-
Mike Davis says there will be a ruling by this fall on long putters, according to Rex Hoggard on the Golf Channel.
-
Not one of those items are anchored to your chest or gut. Hold it away and I am fine with it. Go look in a good golf museum, hybrid type woods pre date all of us.
-
New Alex Miceli article on possible rules changes in GolfWeek:
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/jul/21/r-usga-consider-bold-stroke-anchoring/
-
Does this constitute anchoring? No part of the club is touching the torso.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGv-9d8XePs
-
David, I would say no. But he DOES anchor his left arm to his chest as best he can.
Of courser, all good players anchor their left arm to their chest during the full swing, at least to a point.
My assumption is that when the ruling bodies say a "decision" is immiment, it really means a ban is imminent. The statements in Micelli's article make it sound like anchoring will be banned, but players will figure out a way to circumvent that. What if a player using a long putter anchored the back of his left hand to his chest, and then anchored the butt of the club to the left palm? Would that be legal?
-
David,
I think the term anchoring will be deemed to extend beyond the club touching the body, as the hand that wraps around the club is often anchored to the body.
I know an excellent long putter who anchors his left bicept to his torso and keeps his hand and the end of the long putter away from his body.
I think the "anchor" concept will include the hands/arms as well as the actual putter.
-
I think the debate to define what is and is not "anchoring" will be very, very interesting. ;)
-
I think the debate to define what is and is not "anchoring" will be very, very interesting. ;)
David, like some rulings I think it will evolve over a very short period of time.
One has to wonder why they outlawed the "paddle" grip, the one Crenshaw used to use.
And, why they were quick to outlaw Sam Snead's croquette like stroke, but not his side saddle stroke.
I've also never understood why they would allow a caddy to line up the golfer, then mandate that he has to remove himself, immediately before the golfer pulls the trigger. Once you're aligned, what difference does it make if the caddy stays there or not ?
-
A few weeks ago we had a display of old golf clubs at my club. I was speaking to the guy who owned the collection and he said that many of the most valuable clubs are ones that were banned since they weren't made for very long.
Therefore if you think they are going to be banning long putters then you may want to buy one as an investment. Your grandkids can sell if for the equivalent of a thousand bucks or some in 90 years.
-
Pat M. -
I don't know the rationale for the rules changes you site. But what constitutes what is and is not acceptable under those rules is pretty easy to define and understand.
I think there will be some very gray areas if & when it comes to defining what is and what is not anchoring.
DT
-
A long putter is just admitting you're a bad putter. But the line gets crossed when it's used to get relief or penalty drops.
It's one thing to tell the field you're terrified of five footers, but have some self respect and use your driver to take a drop.
+1 lol
-
Yes. I completely agree. Just as soon as you ban:
- Cavity back irons
- graphite shafts
- offset irons
- metal woods
- the sand wedge
- the 60 degree wedge
- composite non-leather grips
- the cheater line
- rangefinders
- golf gloves
- one piece balls
Each of these is non-traditional. That's a fact.
Look in your bag. Your grips, shafts, clubheads, gloves, etc. ... The fact is that every damn piece of Equipment in your bag is NON-traditional.
Hypocrites.
your call of hypocrisy is very hollow
none of your examples listed above is about the the act of swinging the club
in fact if you want to just abandon traditions, then you should suggest something else new that would help grow the game
thanks
thanks
-
Back when I was in shape and officiating ice hockey, there was a rule that a stick could only be 55 inches. Likewise a goalie's pads could only be so wide. Over time, those rules went away and goalie pads became a joke - huge pads on the legs and on the torso. Fortunately, ice hockey's ruling bodies saw what was happening and instituted limits. The goalies all griped, but they learned how to play with the "new" equipment.
On the other hand, bowling (ten pins) is a sport that has completely lost control. To me, the game should be a played with a single ball with nothing else. However, head down to you local bowling center on a league night, and you'll see guys playing with 2-4 balls that they swap out based on the shot, gizmos that lock their wrist in place, stuff that keeps their elbows in line, etc. You'd think they were outfitted by an orthopedic surgeon for some of these things.
Bowling has lost its soul and in doing so has lost a huge number of players (myself included - I gave it up in 1992). It used to have one of the highest rated TV shows every Saturday afternoon on ABC. Today, they're stuck in a bad timeslot on ESPN, normaly put up against the NFL.
Things like anchoring make golf something it isn't. The game of golf is centered around swinging the club; making a fair stroke at the ball.
Anchoring a club to your body is not cheating today, but I sure hope that USGA/R&A correct things quickly. They let the ball get away from them, to lose this opportunity would be losing the soul of the game, and I fear, it's economic future.
Simple rule change - "The only part of the body the club can touch at address is the hands". Now, I know it's not as simple as that, but they can ban anchoring without banning the equipment.
-
Simple rule change - "The only part of the body the club can touch at address is the hands". Now, I know it's not as simple as that, but they can ban anchoring without banning the equipment.
This is the problem though. I'm not sure how a rule can define "anchoring."
Tell Adam Scott he can only touch the club with his hands, and he'll just anchor the back of his left hand to his chest, stick the butt of the club in his palm, and keep on rolling.
So let's change the rule to say "No anchoring of the hands or arms." That definition doesn't work, because EVERY reasonably good player anchors their upper arms to their chest when pitching, chipping, and even during the full swing. It's why pros do that drill where they stick the gloves under their armpits, to emphasize "staying connected."
So what, then constitutes "anchoring." This is probably part of why, as Shivas has mentioned, the ruling bodies have almost never dictated what mechanics are and aren't allowed. It's really hard to regulate biomechanics.
-
Would all of the folks calling for a ban on long or "anchored" putters or putting strokes be content looking Webb Simpson and Keegan Bradley in the eye and telling them that the way of putting whose validity under the Rules that they've never had reason to doubt, and in large part the reason they've been able to be successful in golf, is now invalid?
"Hey Webb, I know you've been putting this way almost your entire life and I know you've made hundreds of important putts that allowed you get to where you are in the game, but we now say that style of putting is unfair and you have to use a non-anchored putter. Congrats on your U.S. Open victory! Hey, would you mind texting Keegan and passing this along? Thanks; you're a huckleberry."
-
I just looked at the Strokes Gained-Putting stat on PGATour.com. I was curious whether anyone putting with a "traditional" length putter managed to crack the top 10 or so. I figured all the leaders must be putting with anchored putters, given the majority view here. Apparently, the sky ISN'T falling ::)
I putt with a long (not belly) putter. Not because I was a poor putter. I'm a very good putter with just about anything you put in my hands. I honestly don't fret if they were to be banned, because I'll still putt better than most people if I have to go back to a traditional putter. The key is, I'll put myself up against anyone in the area of reading greens. I can roll it on line with anything. I'm just making a point that it was not a last resort. I occasionally change simply for the sake of change. Confidence is not something I lack when putting ;D
So the people that make blanket statements that an anchored putter is only for the poorest of putters, you are wrong. And wouldn't there be a prevalence of anchored putters at the top of the key putting stats if they provided a significant advantage? If we're trying to prevent people from using non-traditional methods to overcome shoddy putting, can we explore banning the "Claw" grip as well? For centuries, golf has been played with the knuckles on both hands fairly well aligned. The Claw is going to destroy the game!
-
Doug,
My mid and long range putting with a short putter was very good.
My putting problems got worse as I got closer to the hole, hence I went to the long putter and the results have been much, much better.
-
I'm not as intelligent or as astute as you guys obviously are, but (to paraphrase Potter Stewart) I know a proper golf stroke when I see one. Securing one end of a club to create a pendulum swing with the other end is not a proper golf stroke... and, everyone knows it. I've never met anyone who uses a long putter as a pendulum who didn't exhibit or express some form of embarrassment in doing so.
-
well, maybe the long putter isnt that much of an advantage after all...
-
It may not matter what kind of equipment you have; nerves are nerves.
-
Clubs are held in the hands, well that's my feeling on the issue. Put the end in your gut and it's anchoring , a full free swinging motion is a stroke.
I am also against lines on golf balls too.
-
Would all of the folks calling for a ban on long or "anchored" putters or putting strokes be content looking Webb Simpson and Keegan Bradley in the eye and telling them that the way of putting whose validity under the Rules that they've never had reason to doubt, and in large part the reason they've been able to be successful in golf, is now invalid?
"Hey Webb, I know you've been putting this way almost your entire life and I know you've made hundreds of important putts that allowed you get to where you are in the game, but we now say that style of putting is unfair and you have to use a non-anchored putter. Congrats on your U.S. Open victory! Hey, would you mind texting Keegan and passing this along? Thanks; you're a huckleberry."
If they went about it from the equipment side, you could grandfather in all of the players currently performing on the PGA Tour or European Tour who currently use a long putter, or who have won an event using a long putter -- the same way they did for spitball pitchers in Major League Baseball in 1920.
That would be a neat parallel !! :)
But, if they go the direction of defining what a stroke is, then you couldn't grandfather in guys who are making an illegal stroke.
There is some precedent for defining the putting stroke more tightly. When Sam Snead started to get the yips, he went to a putting stroke where he straddled the line of the putt and swung the putter pendulum-style between his legs ... a stroke that was quickly banned by making it illegal to straddle the line of the shot. Snead then switched to his side-saddle method with a long putter, which they didn't have the heart to ban at the time, or we probably wouldn't be talking about this today.
-
Tom,
Sam Snead used a regular length putter with his side saddle stroke:
(http://s1.golfmagic.com/uploads/images/medium/11997.jpg)
-
It may not matter what kind of equipment you have; nerves are nerves.
Steve,
The physics and mechanics of using the long putter diminish the reliance on certain muscles and nerves, that's why you'll see the pencil grip employed.
Different grips tend to minimize and/or eliminate the yips
-
It may not matter what kind of equipment you have; nerves are nerves.
Steve,
The physics and mechanics of using the long putter diminish the reliance on certain muscles and nerves, that's why you'll see the pencil grip employed.
Different grips tend to minimize and/or eliminate the yips
Pat,
Fair enough, Pat. My point, though, is that the yips can, and do, still happen with the long putter - at the highest level of play and presumably also for a typical golfer in his/her weekly game with his buddies. The long putter may be helpful, but it is far from infallible. Surely you must concede that? Despite the use of "physics and mechanics" that "minimize" the yips, Adam Scott's stroke still did not hold up under the pressure of the moment (of course his long game was also to blame for the collapse). No putter or putting stroke is likely to overcome (or, to use your word, "eliminate") nerves entirely.
-
Steve,
There is no magic wand that will eliminate the influence of "nerves", however, the long putter reduces the influence of nerves for many, ergo it's popularity.
Using the long putter is cumbersome and unnatural, yet, it's becoming more popular because of it's ability to ameliorate the influence of nerves.
Scott's 4 finishing bogey's were more a product of his thinking, club selections and ball striking.
When you look at putting statistics, at 5' feet and longer, no one is at 100 %, yet the expectation seems to be that these fellows should make all of those putts.
I thought his club selection off of # 18 indicated that the was playing not to lose rather than trying to win.
I could be wrong on that, but that was my thought when he didn't use a driver.
One mustn't forget that missing a putt is not always caused by a poor stroke.
Many times a misread, misjudging of pace or misalignment is the culprit.
I've always advocated banning the long putter, however, while it's legal, I switched in May, and the result is that I know longer "yip" 1, 2 and 3 footers. The trade off is that I'm still trying to learn how to putt accurately from off the green, which iwas always good at.
-
I think the debate to define what is and is not "anchoring" will be very, very interesting. ;)
David, like some rulings I think it will evolve over a very short period of time.
One has to wonder why they outlawed the "paddle" grip, the one Crenshaw used to use.
And, why they were quick to outlaw Sam Snead's croquette like stroke, but not his side saddle stroke.;
I've also never understood why they would allow a caddy to line up the golfer, then mandate that he has to remove himself, immediately before the golfer pulls the trigger. Once you're aligned, what difference does it make if the caddy stays there or not ?
;
Pat, the grip rule wasn't aimed at the Grip Rite, it was aimed at a regular grip shaped like Coke bottle. They were afraid that grips were getting to be fitted to the hands. The Griprite was collateral damage.
-
Interesting article in the Guardian. Sam Torrance seems to say he is not anchoring his putter to his body.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/22/padraig-harrington-ernie-els-open-putters
-
From reports and comments from Peter Dawson, among others, it's beginning to sound like a rule change is imminent. Some of the "decision makers" have already said that they won't introduce any equipment rules, so any rule will be centered around method of stroke.
I suspect we'll hear in September that anchoring will no longer be allowed. I'm still not sure how you define "anchoring" though.
-
Ken,
When you consider all of the non-traditional grips currently in use, why wasn't the paddle Grip-rite reinstated ?
-
First of all, if the long putter stroke reduces reliance on certain muscles and nerves, that must mean that the physics and mechanics of the most common/traditional putting stroke increase the reliance on those same muscles and nerves.
And how do we know that the most common putting stroke, by increasing reliance on those certain muscles and nerves, doesn't provide an unfair competitive advantage?
By the fact that the trend is away from that stroke at the highest levels.
Let me ask you a question, Pat: why, after tens of millions of putts all over the world by millions of golfers over more than a century, with no restrictions on their method of stroke (other than no scraping, shoving or spooning) did the traditional putting stroke become so common in the first place? Why, Pat, why?
For the simple reason that it was a short version of every other stroke.
Did you ever examine old putters ?
They had more loft than a 1 or 2 iron, and the strokes were semi-swings in many cases.
And the club was easy to carry since it was the shortest club in the bag.
You could ask the same question of the Sand Wedge (1933), the Lob Wedge (1980's), stand up bags, dual strap bags, aluminum shafts, graphite shafts, hollow metal heads, etc,etc.. Why did millions of golfers for more than a century not use them ?
It's an invalid question in the context of the evolution of equipment.
Why did golfers choose the common/traditional stroke?
For the simple reason that the long putter hadn't been invented yet.
But, once it had, the use of the traditional stroke diminished and the use of the long putter increased.
Was it because they thought it would hurt their putting? Did they choose it to hole fewer putts? Of course not.
They chose the traditional method because there was NO alternative
See, when you break down the argument against the long putter, it all boils down to a completely fallacious argument - that the long putter provides an unfair competitive advantage.
Your argument is flawed.
It does make putting easier.
It's the transition that is difficult
But the facts belie this argument - the putting stroke that really provides the unfair competitive advantage is the traditional putting stroke. That's why, through trial and error over a century, most golfers have chosen it. They certainly didn't choose it because they make fewer putts with it. ...
They chose the traditional method for one reason only...... There was NO alternative
So there is only one conclusion to be drawn from these facts: that the traditional/common putting stroke is the best method for putting.
Anyone who understands anatomy and physics knows that you're wrong.
A putter at 90 degrees, employing a pendulum stroke where gravity and physics insure little in the way of deviation/error is far superior to a hinged stroke at less than 90 degrees
And by the reasoning of the long putter haters here, the traditional putting stroke should therefore be banned!
Results will make the traditional stroke/putter less popular.
I'm seeing younger and younger golfers going to the long putter
The trend is clear and there's a reason for that trend........improved putting results.
-
One of the guys reporting from the Open on the Golf Channel said that there were over 40 long putters and belly putters in play this week. I was surprised at how many are using them. They have to make a decision now or it will be all over. I use a long putter and have for years. When they are banned (it sounds more and more like it), I will switch over to a regular putter without a peep. Always was a pretty decent putter, but the long putter just felt right and still does. My back will complain tho. Hard to practice for very long with a regular putter without it tightening up.
-
I've always advocated banning the long putter, however, while it's legal, I switched in May, and the result is that I know longer "yip" 1, 2 and 3 footers. The trade off is that I'm still trying to learn how to putt accurately from off the green, which iwas always good at.
Patrick,
If this is a problem, I'm curious if you had considered carrying two putters? At least on those courses where you are likely to have a lot of putts from off the green, maybe this benefits you more than a fairway wood, long iron or wedge you'd replace.
-
Would all of the folks calling for a ban on long or "anchored" putters or putting strokes be content looking Webb Simpson and Keegan Bradley in the eye and telling them that the way of putting whose validity under the Rules that they've never had reason to doubt, and in large part the reason they've been able to be successful in golf, is now invalid?
"Hey Webb, I know you've been putting this way almost your entire life and I know you've made hundreds of important putts that allowed you get to where you are in the game, but we now say that style of putting is unfair and you have to use a non-anchored putter. Congrats on your U.S. Open victory! Hey, would you mind texting Keegan and passing this along? Thanks; you're a huckleberry."
I'd be delighted to have that conversation. Older players with putting problems I can forgive for succumbing to temptation but young players choosing the long or belly putter? Contrary to the spirit of the game. For me the fact that three Majors have been won with these putters is a disgrace and Bradley, Simpson and Els should know that their "wins" should be asterisked in the record books.
-
Shivas,
I see your point about how the long putter hasn't caught on, but none of the other equipment you've mentioned required a technique change. I can use the same swing with graphite or steel, persimmon or titanium, and blades or cavity backs. But putting a long putter in play requires a lot of practice and effort.
Of course, maybe that's just further proof that it isnt an advantage since it requires just as much work as any other putting method to be able to use it effectively.
Is there any actual statistical correlation between long/belly putters and putting stats?
-
If I had to bet,I'd say anchoring will be banned in the Fall.
How would a rule be written to allow long/belly putters but disallow anchoring?
What will be the definition of anchoring?
-
Would all of the folks calling for a ban on long or "anchored" putters or putting strokes be content looking Webb Simpson and Keegan Bradley in the eye and telling them that the way of putting whose validity under the Rules that they've never had reason to doubt, and in large part the reason they've been able to be successful in golf, is now invalid?
"Hey Webb, I know you've been putting this way almost your entire life and I know you've made hundreds of important putts that allowed you get to where you are in the game, but we now say that style of putting is unfair and you have to use a non-anchored putter. Congrats on your U.S. Open victory! Hey, would you mind texting Keegan and passing this along? Thanks; you're a huckleberry."
I'd be delighted to have that conversation. Older players with putting problems I can forgive for succumbing to temptation but young players choosing the long or belly putter? Contrary to the spirit of the game. For me the fact that three Majors have been won with these putters is a disgrace and Bradley, Simpson and Els should know that their "wins" should be asterisked in the record books.
Mark,
Where is this "Spirit of the Game" exactly? What is it?
I thought the "object" of the game was to complete 18 holes in the fewest strokes possible under the rules of golf. I've never finished a round and then added or subtracted shots in accordance of the "Spirit". I don't care for golfers that take 6 practice swings and 5 hours to play. They should be banned in regard to my spirit of the game but they aren't.
-
The long putter - despite being in the market for 30 years - clearly doesn't, as evidenced by the fact that hardly anybody has taken to it.
Perhaps I'm not a common golf-club consumer, but my pride simply won't allow me to purchase certain legal clubs, even if they might help might game a little. I won't use a belly or other long putter; I won't buy an alien wedge; and there are others I can't think of right now but that I just wouldn't buy. For me, at least, some marginal stroke savings just doesn't matter enough to buy certain equipment.
-
Doesn't the long putter help on short putts but hamper touch on longer putts? I just don't see many guys using the long putter dominating the putting stats.
The strokes gained putting stats on Tour this year: http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?02564
Furyk (29th) is the highest ranked guy that uses a long/belly putter I recognize, but I don't watch that much golf so I may have missed someone above him.
Then again, Sergio is 16th. This stat may be stupid.
-
Dave,
This discussion group's yapping regarding the long putter and modern equipment reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live Skit...
If it's not Scottish, it's crap! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzG_J7RCGS0&feature=related
You'd think 99% of this site used hickories and featheries by the way they talk here. ;D
-
Perhaps I'm not a common golf-club consumer, but my pride simply won't allow me to purchase certain legal clubs, even if they might help might game a little. I won't use a belly or other long putter; I won't buy an alien wedge; and there are others I can't think of right now but that I just wouldn't buy. For me, at least, some marginal stroke savings just doesn't matter enough to buy certain equipment.
What's in your bag, Carl? Metal woods, cavity backs (and even if you still play blades, I guarantee they're bigger and more forgiving than the Wilson Staffs or whatever you used to play 30 years ago), graphite shafts, composite grips, lob wedges....and perhaps a Scotty Cameron or some other oversized non-blade putter? I'll bet every single thing in your bag provides a competitive advantage vis-a-vis the clubs you used as a kid...
Absolutely! All I'm saying is that there just happen to be certain clubs that I'm not willing to put in my bag. Metal woods with huge heads and graphite shafts? Yup! Lob wedges? Yup! Big-headed putters? Depends on the head . . . mallet size ok, bigger not gonna happen! Long putter? Nope! Alien? Nope!
Is there any reason to this? Probably not -- just my own sense of embarrassment/pride vs. marginal game improvement. If I knew that I'd have 4 fewer putts per round with a long putter, maybe I'd make a different choice . . . .
-
If I had to bet,I'd say anchoring will be banned in the Fall.
How would a rule be written to allow long/belly putters but disallow anchoring?
What will be the definition of anchoring?
My guess is the rule will require both ends of the club to move during execution of the stroke. You can't perform a pendulum stroke with a long putter if the grip end is allowed to move. It is the stationary anchoring of the grip end that causes all the rancor.
-
If I had to bet,I'd say anchoring will be banned in the Fall.
How would a rule be written to allow long/belly putters but disallow anchoring?
What will be the definition of anchoring?
My guess is the rule will require both ends of the club to move during execution of the stroke. You can't perform a pendulum stroke with a long putter if the grip end is allowed to move. It is the stationary anchoring of the grip end that causes all the rancor.
I don't think the rule will have any language about having both ends of the club moving. For example: On a shorter putt, you could take a regular/short putter and just swing your wrists back and forth and make the clubhead move without the grip really going anywhere. It's a goofy example but it's definitely possible. Nobody for the last 100 years would say that wasn't a stroke. It's this little stuff that they have to think about with any definition and ruling.
It'll be interesting and tricky for the ruling bodies. I can hold my long putter with a split grip, left hand on top of the grip and not have the grip or my hand touch my body and putt just fine with it. It's not anchored to anything other than my hands and remains away from my body ever so slightly. In my view, it's not anchored.
-
Michael,
That seems much too difficult to police. Some of those old guys from the 50s and 60s putted with so much wrist action that the butt end of their putters hardly moved, for instance.
I think the definition has to be that no part of the hand or club can be braced against any other part of the body.
-
This is going to be great fun to enforce at he amateur level.
-
JSlonis,
Just like pornography, you know it when you see it. I'd also ban 6 practice shots and 5 hour rounds, but I'd start with a club that isn't swung. For me, all golf shots should be played with both hands together.
-
This is going to be great fun to enforce at he amateur level.
Regardless of the fact that the Ruling Bodies say they don't want bifurcated rules...
They've already bifurcated the rules for an extended period of time with the Groove issue: Professional events started Jan 2010, Major Amateur events are Jan 2014 and for the rest of the golfing public, they'll be legal to use until at least 2024. That's a really long time to implement this.
Maybe it'll become some sort of "Condition of Competition" rule that can be used or not and they'll let everyone else do what they want.
-
JSlonis,
Just like pornography, you know it when you see it. I'd also ban 6 practice shots and 5 hour rounds, but I'd start with a club that isn't swung. For me, all golf shots should be played with both hands together.
So you'd ban the claw grip on the short putter as well because technically your hands aren't together?
-
J,
Yes, though I'm sure it wouldn't take Rihc and those pros long to modify the claw to have the hands touch.
-
J,
Yes, though I'm sure it wouldn't take Rihc and those pros long to modify the claw to have the hands touch.
Just curious, but where in the history of the game or the rules of golf did it ever say you had to have your hands "together" to make a golf stroke? We are allowed 14 legal clubs and we can hold them how we see fit to best hit the ball.
"Stroke: A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball." Doesn't say I have to have my hands together, doesn't say I need to stand still, doesn't say I have to have my eyes open. Just saying...
-
So your choices will be regular putter or long putter, peanut butter or chocolate, but no Reese's Peanut Butter cup for you...
Why not Reese's though?
Long putters are great from short distances, but tough to judge from longer distances.
Regular putters are better for touch, but some get yippy from short distances.
Why hasn't someone like Phil tried carrying two putters, a long putter for short putts and a regular putter for lag putts? You already take half your shots on the green, give or take.
I'm not surprised it's uncommon, but I'm surprised that I've literally never seen anyone try this.
-
I'm not surprised it's uncommon, but I'm surprised that I've literally never seen anyone try this.
Maybe 6 or 7 years ago,a guy I know made it to the quarters or semis in the Senior Am carrying 2 putters.
-
Sorry I haven’t read this thread but..
Are any of you naysayer's aware of the following precedent?
I recently purchased Paul Runyon's book on the Short Game. Blow me down but for the nervous putter he recommends, spreading your feet as wide as possible, jam the club into your belly, split the hands and hey presto! your problems are solved!
-
I think the rule to ban this stroke is easily written...
"The club shall ONLY touch your hands, and ANY PART of your hands shall ONLY touch the club"
Its as simple as that. If there is a scenario I've missed, I'd love to hear it...
-
Sorry I haven’t read this thread but..
Are any of you naysayer's aware of the following precedent?
I recently purchased Paul Runyon's book on the Short Game. Blow me down but for the nervous putter he recommends, spreading your feet as wide as possible, jam the club into your belly, split the hands and hey presto! your problems are solved!
must be a short book ;D
personally i am against the achoring to the body. The long one like Scotts is fine to me the Webb Simpson version i am dead against.
-
I think the rule to ban this stroke is easily written...
"The club shall ONLY touch your hands, and ANY PART of your hands shall ONLY touch the club"
Its as simple as that. If there is a scenario I've missed, I'd love to hear it...
Define HANDS
-
I think the rule to ban this stroke is easily written...
"The club shall ONLY touch your hands, and ANY PART of your hands shall ONLY touch the club"
Its as simple as that. If there is a scenario I've missed, I'd love to hear it...
Define HANDS
From the wrists down.....
Put your finger on the knobby bone sticking out on the top of the outside of the wrist, and draw a line perpendicular to your lower arm.....anything below that.
Easy peasy....
-
I think the rule to ban this stroke is easily written...
"The club shall ONLY touch your hands, and ANY PART of your hands shall ONLY touch the club"
Its as simple as that. If there is a scenario I've missed, I'd love to hear it...
Sounds great until you hit a putt one handed with a beer in your other hand.... but thanks for playing...
And if you can putt better with one hand...then so be it. I don't think anyone would call a rules violation on you for doing that... ;)
-
I think the rule to ban this stroke is easily written...
"The club shall ONLY touch your hands, and ANY PART of your hands shall ONLY touch the club"
Its as simple as that. If there is a scenario I've missed, I'd love to hear it...
This is going to be a blow to the many amputees (or people otherwise missing hands) that play with adaptive devices that essentially anchor the club to their arms in some fashion. I guess they'll no longer be able to compete under the rules and post scores. Darn it! For the sake of adhering to tradition, they are going to have to give up the game that they love. Oh, well.
-
I think the rule to ban this stroke is easily written...
"The club shall ONLY touch your hands, and ANY PART of your hands shall ONLY touch the club"
Its as simple as that. If there is a scenario I've missed, I'd love to hear it...
This is going to be a blow to the many amputees (or people otherwise missing hands) that play with adaptive devices that essentially anchor the club to their arms in some fashion. I guess they'll no longer be able to compete under the rules and post scores. Darn it! For the sake of adhering to tradition, they are going to have to give up the game that they love. Oh, well.
We've long made special exceptions for those without limbs/otherwise. Casey Martin got his cart on the PGA tour....And if there is an amputee who was good enough to play at the highest levels, all the more power to him/her.
But this doesn't really affect normal play...most weekend hacks break several rules on any given round anyways.
-
I think the rule to ban this stroke is easily written...
"The club shall ONLY touch your hands, and ANY PART of your hands shall ONLY touch the club"
Its as simple as that. If there is a scenario I've missed, I'd love to hear it...
This is going to be a blow to the many amputees (or people otherwise missing hands) that play with adaptive devices that essentially anchor the club to their arms in some fashion. I guess they'll no longer be able to compete under the rules and post scores. Darn it! For the sake of adhering to tradition, they are going to have to give up the game that they love. Oh, well.
We've long made special exceptions for those without limbs/otherwise. Casey Martin got his cart on the PGA tour....And if there is an amputee who was good enough to play at the highest levels, all the more power to him/her.
But this doesn't really affect normal play...most weekend hacks break several rules on any given round anyways.
Kalen:
The Casey Martin case wasn't over the Rules of Golf. It was the Conditions of Competition of the PGA Tour. We are talking about the Rules of Golf with regard to this issue. THIS IS ABOUT NORMAL PLAY, because they are contemplating a change to the Rules impacting how the game is played. If we don't care about "normal" play, then leave the Rules as they are and this entire debate is irrelevant. The professional tours could rule as they see fit. But when changing the Rules, it must be clear and contemplative of all potential situations. There is no way the ruling bodies can make it so that they have to opine on endless "special exceptions".
Your response above basically says that anchoring should only be an issue for professionals, which is a case for two sets of Rules. If that's the case, then let's not worry about the Rules as they currently stand, and leave them as they are. Let the various Tours sort it out themselves.
-
And I would be fine with that as well.
I've always been an advocate of seperate sets of rules. Nearly every other sport has done such, I don't know why golf hasn't followed suit in full force, even though it has partially started with rules on grooves. There is no reason in the world the PGA tour couldn't have its own special set of rules and equipment....
-
I've always advocated banning the long putter, however, while it's legal, I switched in May, and the result is that I know longer "yip" 1, 2 and 3 footers. The trade off is that I'm still trying to learn how to putt accurately from off the green, which iwas always good at.
Patrick,
If this is a problem, I'm curious if you had considered carrying two putters?
I tried carrying two putters but it was a real pain and I had to take another club out of play.
I finally made the commitment to go with one putter
At least on those courses where you are likely to have a lot of putts from off the green, maybe this benefits you more than a fairway wood, long iron or wedge you'd replace.
I only carry one wood, a 3-wood and I use my L, S and P Wedges, so it has to be one putter
-
Latest comments from Peter Dawson of the R&A:
http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2012/7/23/dawson-clarifies-where-anchoring-discussions-stand.html
-
most of the talk i hear is about the USGA and R&A changing rules - which would affect all of us poor amateurs. then there are those calling for 2 sets of rules. But i haven't seen much from the PGA Tour on their stance on the issue? does the Tour want to outlaw these? and if the Rules bodies change the rules on anchoring couldn't the PGA Tour still allow anchoring? much like the split rule for range finders / etc? ???
-
most of the talk i hear is about the USGA and R&A changing rules - which would affect all of us poor amateurs. then there are those calling for 2 sets of rules. But i haven't seen much from the PGA Tour on their stance on the issue? does the Tour want to outlaw these? and if the Rules bodies change the rules on anchoring couldn't the PGA Tour still allow anchoring? much like the split rule for range finders / etc? ???
I've heard a few of the TV guys mention over the last few days that Professional golf is the only major sport that allows an amateur organization to rule it. I'm surprised the PGA Tour hasn't said to the USGA/R&A... "enough already, we've got it from here."
The PGA Tour could've set the tone years ago in reference to the ball, long putters or any other modern issue that they saw fit to address. Due the radically skewed influence the very best players have over the game, I'd argue that those governing bodies would've fallen in line.
The long putter issue is the most recent example. For me, I figured out that I was a better putter with the long model 18 yrs ago, now because over the past few years a small handful of tour level players have noticed the same thing, I might not be able to play golf the same way anymore. It's stupid.
In my view, the USGA/R&A totally botched the recent Groove rule. I would say for 99.9% of the best players, its been a total non issue. I don't think it's had hardly any effect on the game at the highest level, it initially cost the manufacturers some money, it's cost players like me more money, because I need different wedges to play in certain events and it's essentially a bifurcation of the rules for about a 15 yr period. Makes no sense to me.
Looks like they are heading in the same direction with this putter issue. All this spirit of the game talk, ruining the game nonsense is just that...nonsense. What the hell difference does Ernie winning with a belly putter or Scott winning with a long putter have in regard to your average weekend game? None!!
Oh...I forgot...it doesn't look like how the shepherd banged around his rock 300 yrs ago. Gimme a break! ;D
-
I've been using a broomstick for a couple of years now and here's the quandry. Let's say that the rumors are true and all anchored strokes are banned starting in 2016. What's the best reponse for a current user? I am hoping to remain playing at a decent level for another 20 years or so. While not elite by any means I do like to play in some tournaments and playing with conforming equipment is important for that.
I did not switch to the long putter because of the yips or anything like that. I just found that I putted more consistently with it and I also seemed to eliminate the truly horrorshow putting days that had crept in as I aged. I am fairly confident that I can become a decent putter with a short putter again, probably by making a few longer putts but with the tradeoff of missing a few more short ones. I am sure that there are guys that use long putters that would have a much tougher time switching back. But generally speaking, which of the two plans makes the most sense?
To make the switch at the time of the announcement and put the work in to become as good as possible with a short putter.
-or-
Keep using the long putter and make the switch at the time of the ban after being another three years away from using a short putter.
-
Jim,
Keep using the long putter. With the long model, it's still possible to putt pretty well with it even if it's not "anchored". (whatever definition they come up with for that)
You can hold it pretty much the same with your top hand just slightly away from your chest. Trust me, I've tried it with all this recent banning talk. ;)
If they ban just anchoring and don't regulate the length I think it'll essentially end belly putter use but not necessarily the long putter.
-
Jamie - I basically already have wrist against the chest and never really felt that I anchored the club against my body in any event. I try to rock more than pendulum the putter against a fixed point. If they regulate the length of the club then all bets are off.
DSchmidt - I agree that the whole thing is crazy. No course has ever been modified because of how someone holds the putter. Until they address the balls and the drivers the USGA has lost most of its credibility in my opinion. (The cheater line is neither here nor there in my opinion as long as using it doesn't slow up play, as a kid I used to line up the lettering on the ball or the dinple seam to the same effect. What type of regulation would you reccomend for "fixing the cheater line" and how can it be enforced as long as there are any straight lines on a golf ball that could be used as such?)
-
Jim, Jamie & David -
Did you see the video of Randy Haag "face-on" putting?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGv-9d8XePs
Neither his left hand or wrist or the putter grip touches any part of his body.
DT
-
To quote Moses (aka Charlton Heston)...
You can take my Belly Putter from my cold dead hands.
(http://c2.bibtopia.com/f/662/512/9780394512662.OL.0.m.jpg)
-
Jamie - I basically already have wrist against the chest and never really felt that I anchored the club against my body in any event. I try to rock more than pendulum the putter against a fixed point. If they regulate the length of the club then all bets are off.
DSchmidt - I agree that the whole thing is crazy. No course has ever been modified because of how someone holds the putter. Until they address the balls and the drivers the USGA has lost most of its credibility in my opinion. (The cheater line is neither here nor there in my opinion as long as using it doesn't slow up play, as a kid I used to line up the lettering on the ball or the dinple seam to the same effect. What type of regulation would you reccomend for "fixing the cheater line" and how can it be enforced as long as there are any straight lines on a golf ball that could be used as such?)
OK, without turning this into another 40 page thread on the subject, I'll answer:
I have come to the conclusion that the best way to eliminate the cheater line is in the Marking and Replacing rule, and simply state that "when replacing the ball after it has been marked, the ball shall be replaced quickly, and without regard to the positioning of any markings or dimples on the ball."
If that were the rule, flagging violations would be about the same as flagging "ball bumpers", only it would actually be easier because the ball bumpers do it real quick when people aren't looking, but if somebody was trying to put a cheater line down in violation of this rule, they'd have to take some time, and everybody would know exactly what they're doing. Plus, the evidence would be right there on the ground!
David - I didn't mean to rehash this, I had just not read a distinct clarification as to enforcment plans. Thanks for the reasonable response. I've gone back and forth between using and not using it. It still boils down to pace of play and whether or not someone is slowing down play by using it. I liked the term "ball bumpers", I had not heard it before but know exactly who you're referring to.
-
Ken,
When you consider all of the non-traditional grips currently in use, why wasn't the paddle Grip-rite reinstated ?
The USGA has not wavered on the rules in appendix II banning waists in grips:
The grip may be tapered but must not have any bulge or waist. Its cross-sectional dimensions measured in any direction must not exceed 1.75 inches (44.45 mm).
(http://www.usga.org/images/rog/FigVII.jpg)
There is no grip currently allowed that has a waist, which is what got the GripRite banned in the first place.
The astounding thing to me is that the USGA gave the players a 5-year grace period to stop using those grips, yet when the Tour arrived in Arizona the winter the ban was enforced, players like Crenshaw threw a fit about losing "his" grip.
Hell, I was mutt amateur shooting 80s in South Dakota at the time, and I knew the rule was going to change--perhaps because I was using the grip that got the ban enacted in the first place.
K
-
So your choices will be regular putter or long putter, peanut butter or chocolate, but no Reese's Peanut Butter cup for you...
Why not Reese's though?
Long putters are great from short distances, but tough to judge from longer distances.
Regular putters are better for touch, but some get yippy from short distances.
Why hasn't someone like Phil tried carrying two putters, a long putter for short putts and a regular putter for lag putts? You already take half your shots on the green, give or take.
I'm not surprised it's uncommon, but I'm surprised that I've literally never seen anyone try this.
The guy who won the 2011 Kansas Senior Amateur carried a broomstick and a short putter, and he putted beautifully. I watched the final foursome, which included two long putters and three short putters--two of which had porno-film-sized grips on them.
FWIW, when it comes to embarassing equipment choices, the Ron Jeremy commemorative putter grips bother me a whole lot more than belly putters.
K
-
Since even a belly putter could not cure my yips, I now use a Bullseye. I play right-handed and putt everything up to about 4' or 5' right-handed. I putt almost everything inside of 4' or 5' left-handed. It is not the perfect solution, but I can manage. As the saying goes, "necessity is a mother." ;)
-
Since even a belly putter could not cure my yips, I now use a Bullseye. I play right-handed and putt everything up to about 4' or 5' right-handed. I putt almost everything inside of 4' or 5' left-handed. It is not the perfect solution, but I can manage. As the saying goes, "necessity is a mother." ;)
I thought the phrase was "necessity is the mother of invention". :)
So how soon will the ban go into place? If they get the rule in by this fall, will the current broomstick abusers get a one year grace period to figure it out before its completely outlawed in 2014?
-
Shivas & Jamie,
The anchoring of parts of the arm to the torso will probably be banned as well.
One of the best long putters I know uses this technique and suggested it to me.
I think the USGA will put considerable thought into the issue.
If they ban the long putter and/or anchoring, I don't think they'll be as short sighted as you think.
-
Shivas & Jamie,
The anchoring of parts of the arm to the torso will probably be banned as well.
One of the best long putters I know uses this technique and suggested it to me.
I think the USGA will put considerable thought into the issue.
If they ban the long putter and/or anchoring, I don't think they'll be as short sighted as you think.
Patrick
I agree with your assessment. My guess is that they will make some tortured definition of a putter based on loft and shaft length, coupled with something about achoring to any part of the torso just oin case. I'm thinking I'll need to get the shorty out and hope the evil has left it in the time it's been in the closet.
-
I only carry one wood, a 3-wood and I use my L, S and P Wedges, so it has to be one putter
Just play like Hogan, and take say your 6 iron out of play because "there are no 6 iron shots on this course" ;D
Seriously though, the math indicates you carry 2-9 irons. Given the number of shots one uses a putter for, the number of shots one uses a wedge for, and the number of shots one uses a driver for, it seems silly we worry so much about having irons with such small gaps between them. If one for instance bent their 3 iron one degree weaker, their 4 iron two degrees weaker, and their 6 iron one degree stronger, they could dump their five iron and add only 3-4 yards between their longer irons. Basically you might be at most 2 yards more off your "ideal" distance for any given shot for mid/long iron shots. Perhaps not worth it to you, if you only have trouble with your long putter from off the green, but for people who use the long putter only for short putts and find a regular putter is better outside 10-12 feet, carrying two putters would seem to be a no-brainer with little reason to claim the 14 club limit as the problem.
-
Shivas & Jamie,
The anchoring of parts of the arm to the torso will probably be banned as well.
One of the best long putters I know uses this technique and suggested it to me.
I think the USGA will put considerable thought into the issue.
If they ban the long putter and/or anchoring, I don't think they'll be as short sighted as you think.
How can they ban anchoring parts of the arm to the torso? Most Tour players work to keep their upper arm "connected" to the chest throughout the swing, which is effectively "anchoring." Most good putters essentially "anchor" their upper arm or elbow to their torso when putting to enable a good, shoulder-rocking stroke. Anchoring of the arms to the body is a fundamental of golf not unique to putting.
-
Just watching TGC. Reporter quotes Furyk as saying something like, "Just because the USGA says they're banned doesn't mean the PGA TOUR will follow suit."
My comment has been redacted...
-
I only carry one wood, a 3-wood and I use my L, S and P Wedges, so it has to be one putter
Just play like Hogan, and take say your 6 iron out of play because "there are no 6 iron shots on this course" ;D
Doug,
I was a little more course "specific" in deciding what club to remove.
I would remove a club depending upon my analysis of prior play and intended play.
It's certainly not an infallible system but I thought it gave me the best chance to optimize scoring.
It's still cumbersome to bring two putters to the green.
Seriously though, the math indicates you carry 2-9 irons. Given the number of shots one uses a putter for, the number of shots one uses a wedge for, and the number of shots one uses a driver for, it seems silly we worry so much about having irons with such small gaps between them. If one for instance bent their 3 iron one degree weaker, their 4 iron two degrees weaker, and their 6 iron one degree stronger, they could dump their five iron and add only 3-4 yards between their longer irons. Basically you might be at most 2 yards more off your "ideal" distance for any given shot for mid/long iron shots. Perhaps not worth it to you, if you only have trouble with your long putter from off the green, but for people who use the long putter only for short putts and find a regular putter is better outside 10-12 feet, carrying two putters would seem to be a no-brainer with little reason to claim the 14 club limit as the problem.
I don't disagree, but there's an element in me that wants to make a commitment to learn to use the putter effectively from off the green.
Dan,
If the USGA rules, I don't think they'll do so in a vacuum.
I think they'm consult and caucus with the other ruling bodies.
-
Just watching TGC. Reporter quotes Jim "I hate golf, but its my job" Furyk as saying something like, "Just because the USGA says they're banned doesn't mean the PGA TOUR will follow suit."
My comment has been redacted...
-
Shivas & Jamie,
The anchoring of parts of the arm to the torso will probably be banned as well.
One of the best long putters I know uses this technique and suggested it to me.
I think the USGA will put considerable thought into the issue.
If they ban the long putter and/or anchoring, I don't think they'll be as short sighted as you think.
How can they ban anchoring parts of the arm to the torso?
Very easily.
Most Tour players work to keep their upper arm "connected" to the chest throughout the swing, which is effectively "anchoring."
"Connected" and "Anchored" are entirely different.
In order to maximize "arc", separation of the arm from the body seems like a basic
Most good putters essentially "anchor" their upper arm or elbow to their torso when putting to enable a good, shoulder-rocking stroke.
So their upper arm and/or elbow never moves ? ? ?
Anchoring of the arms to the body is a fundamental of golf not unique to putting.
I'm not familiar with the swing you describe.
Anchoring is intended to increase stability.
I don't see that happening on full swings, as you describe.
-
Pat, I've made many pitch and 3/4 swings where it feels like my arms stay completely connected to my torso throughout. I frequently go to the range and hit balls with gloves under my arm, such that the glove doesn't move even on a full swing. Obviously, my arms are "anchored" to my chest throughout the swing. I don't disagree with you that they move some. I just dont think you can put a rule into play in which lateral movement of between a half-inch and two inches is fine but lateral movement of less than half an inch isn't. It's just too hard to legislate.
I'm very confident in my ability to anchor my upper arm to my chest when chipping.
I also lock my elbows against my ribcage firmly when putting with a conventional putter. I'm confident they don't move any more than Adam Scott's anchored thumb does.
If keeping the arms against the chest in the short game is ruled illegal, we'll start seeing swings far more unconventional than the current belly putter.
The definition of anchoring by the ruling bodies will extend no further than the forearm. I'm perfectly happy to wager with you on that one if you really disagree.
-
If carrying 2 putters,do you have to designate which one is for leather? ;D
-
Shivas,
I tried the two putter system
Right now I'm committed to the long putter
Time will tell
-
Bring on the lawyers!
http://www.golfworldmonday.com/golfworldmonday/20120730?sub_id=Zu8yJ1Id9hj8&folio=8#pg8
-
"Anchoring Away," an update from the Canadian Open:
http://scoregolf.com/blog/rick-young/2012/july/anchoring-away
-
Bring on the lawyers!
http://www.golfworldmonday.com/golfworldmonday/20120730?sub_id=Zu8yJ1Id9hj8&folio=8#pg8
Wouldn't the PGAT members be suing themselves?
-
Since even a belly putter could not cure my yips, I now use a Bullseye. I play right-handed and putt everything up to about 4' or 5' right-handed. I putt almost everything inside of 4' or 5' left-handed. It is not the perfect solution, but I can manage. As the saying goes, "necessity is a mother." ;)
I know it's an old topic. To that I say, "Geez! I've missed you folks!!" The anchoring rules will evolve. I did the same thing that David advised. I went left handed for all putts for two seasons and during the third season, I kept at it left handed from inside 3 or 4 feet with a Plop putter because like some old Bullseye putters, I could hit the ball off either side of the head. I finally settled into Sam Snead's side-saddle style of putting but mostly within 3 feet. Twenty years later, it still works. I'm convinced that most everything's been tried before. I watch Speith focus on the target and not the ball, knowing that I read about Helen Seigel Wilson doing just that 50 years ago.
-
Still a really stupid decision by the USGA. Users of the long putter are predominantly older players trying to squeeze out a few more years of being competitive. I am sure they index very high in terms of engagement and money spent. Certainly not the customers you want to alienate. The PGA tried to speak to this but I don't think many appreciated what they were getting at.
-
I'm currently using two putters and have taken my 2-iron and 3-iron out of the bag and replaced them with a hybrid.
So far so good, but 01-01-16 looms large on the putting horizon.
-
I'm currently using two putters and have taken my 2-iron and 3-iron out of the bag and replaced them with a hybrid.
So far so good, but 01-01-16 looms large on the putting horizon.
Patrick,
My yips are long gone, for reasons that I won't go into, so I've been using a conventional putter for some time now, and I never did use the long putter. I remain, no matter what I do, the King of the Two Putt.
But I have made a change that might interest you. I have committed myself to a yearlong trial of Face-on/Side Saddle putting, not because of the yips but in hopes of simply making more putts. I've gotten two putters made specifically for that style of putting, read all I could find and watched all the videos I could locate, and I've been at it for a couple of weeks now.
Tried it out in competition for the first time in an interclub match on Thursday, and I've got to say I'm encouraged. I'm no better yet, but I'm no worse, either, and that is significant to me. After spending 40 years trying to teach basketball players to shoot free throws, I really like a setup that feels like I'm doing exactly that except on a different plane. More importantly, looking down the line with binocular vision REALLY feels good; I've got cataract surgery in my future, and I just do NOT see as well from a side-on position as I used to.
Like putting any change, the distance control is going to take time and a lot of practice. But the short putts are already really comfortable and feel close to automatic; straight back, straight thru is a lot easier with one hand than with two.
You might keep it in mind when the anchoring ban comes in. I think you'll see it turn up on the senior tour immediately afterwards, and the regular tour at some point soon.
-
A.G.,
A friend of mine has been "side saddling" for a few years and he putts very well.
I'd say I'm a good putter until I get close to the hole, and that's really where the long putter helped. I improved my long putter putting when another friend, who's a good long putter, converted me to the pencil grip.
Another friend of mine who as a very good long putter is trying side saddle.
Right now there seems to be a very limited selection of side saddle putters.
That will probably change as we get closer to 01-01-16.
The fellow who's been side saddling for years claims that you see the "line" better, which would be a significant asset.
What "side saddle" putter are you using ?
What's its length ?
Thanks
-
A.G.,
A friend of mine has been "side saddling" for a few years and he putts very well.
I'd say I'm a good putter until I get close to the hole, and that's really where the long putter helped. I improved my long putter putting when another friend, who's a good long putter, converted me to the pencil grip.
Another friend of mine who as a very good long putter is trying side saddle.
Right now there seems to be a very limited selection of side saddle putters.
That will probably change as we get closer to 01-01-16.
The fellow who's been side saddling for years claims that you see the "line" better, which would be a significant asset.
What "side saddle" putter are you using ?
What's its length ?
Thanks
I tried the GP putter first at their recommendation of 49" (I'm 6'1"). I liked it BUT the putter head is VERY small. I'm now using the putter that Juan Elizondo makes (named the JuanPutt, believe it or not). I came across it while reading Randy Haag's blog about side saddle putting. It is 46", with a much larger and heavier head, and my sense of it is that I will like it better, especially on longer putts.
As to the shorter putts, fwiw I used the side saddle putter in competition for the first time Thursday in an interclub senior matchplay event (two man better ball). We were at their course, with champion bermuda greens instead of the bent that my course has. I had three putts during the match of 3-5' to either tie or win a hole, and made them all; two of them were downhill sliders. I found it to be of great comfort to be just thinking about ONLY my right hand moving back and forward, and with a pencil grip in the right hand there isn't much that can go wrong on a short putt if you can get lined up.
If you have an old long putter around, get somebody to bend it to an 80* lie angle (it may be close already?) and fiddle around some and see what you think.
-
What will Bernie Langer do?
http://www.sacbee.com/sports/golf/article25626547.html
-
What will Bernie Langer do?
http://www.sacbee.com/sports/golf/article25626547.html (http://www.sacbee.com/sports/golf/article25626547.html)
As a matter of fact, I spoke with someone within the last couple of weeks who is aware of what Langer is working on. He quoted Langer as saying that he will most likely go back to a conventional putter, but he is also experimenting with side saddle to see if it works for him.
I think the issue for a guy like that, or any pro for that matter, is that their margins are so small that learning to putt facing the hole after a lifetime of standing to the side is a much different undertaking than it is for somebody like me. Randy Haag, a top senior amateur from CA who has putted this way for many years at the highest levels of amateur golf, estimates that it would take professional players a full year to gain sufficient distance control to putt well enough to play at that level. Really, a year isn't that long UNLESS you are talking about playing for a living...
But I think you'll see somebody, or several, on some tour putting sidesaddle next year.
The funny thing about it is that when somebody asks me why I am putting sidesaddle, I can give them at least three answers that make sense to anybody: It's the way you would roll a ball to a spot, you're looking down the line with both eyes, and it's a single lever action that is VERY simple.
But when I turn it around and ask them why THEY are putting the way that they do, they look at me like I've lost my mind. And then have no answer, except that that's just the way you putt...
-
Side-saddle putting video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAHmoukSWQ
-
Side-saddle putting video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAHmoukSWQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quAHmoukSWQ)
David,
These two are a bit better. Manzella is using a putter not really made for what he is doing, but it gives you the idea. Randy Haag (first video) is one of the better senior amateurs in the country, and has putted sidesaddle for nearly 20 years. The second guy is PR Dionne, who builds and sells his own model specifically for sidesaddle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9NI430i59U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS_pttryOlc
-
A.G. C. -
Thanks for the links. Living in San Francisco for 40+ years and being a member of Olympic for 35+, I know of R. Haag's exploits very, very well. ;)
DT
-
KJ Choi went sidesaddle for a short time a few years ago. Not sure how he did with it but he didn't stay with it long.
-
KJ Choi went sidesaddle for a short time a few years ago. Not sure how he did with it but he didn't stay with it long.
Choi did it at the British Open, I think, and played only one round that way. I think that he had only worked with it a few days before he did it "live", and at that level that's a recipe for disaster.
While I'm only a little ways into the conversion, I'll say that on putts of 4' and in I was as good Day 1 sidesaddle as I had been conventional, and maybe a little better. The learning curve for longer lag putts is where the rub is. Not a big deal for someone like me, but for a pro, life or death.
-
A.G.
Inside of 6' is where I need the long putter or side saddle putter.
Outside of 6' I'm fine with the short putter.
I have no problem carrying two putters.
-
A.G.
Inside of 6' is where I need the long putter or side saddle putter.
Outside of 6' I'm fine with the short putter.
I have no problem carrying two putters.
Then by all means, give it a try. I don't think any of the various things that plague golfers on shortish putts are anything but better sidesaddle. Again, looking down the line with both eyes and then making the stroke with a single lever motion from the same position from which we roll a ball or throw darts or shoot free throws is about as low maintenance as anything I can imagine.