Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Patrick_Mucci on July 02, 2008, 05:29:33 PM
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Bayonne Golf Club.
It's quite astounding.
The took a site, flat as a pancake at 10' ASL, imported over 7,500,000 cubic yards of two kinds of fill, binded it with Fly Ash/Cement and created a golf course, that if I took a picture from the middle of the 16th fairway, back to the tee and clubhouse, you'd never guess where you were in a million tries.
The American Flag flying high above everything is massive.
The flag pole is the largest in the state of NJ.
The forces on the Flag/pole are enormous, causing the foundation of the flag pole to be imbeded 75 feet below the above ground base.
The course now reaches elevations of 122' ASL.
The hills, dunes, bunkers, grass, bushes ....... everything was imported.
It's quite an amazing golf course.
I found it fun to play.
The conditioning was terrific.
Some might not like the number or kind of blind holes, but, it's a sporty, fun, challenging lay out, on a very compact piece of land.
Some might complain about the green to tee walks, but, they're tolerable.
Most complaints are probably directly proportional to the complainer's play and score.
The fairways are very generous, the wind blows pretty steadily at good velocity and some of the views are spectacular.
There's a nice feeling of isolation on some holes.
There's an 800' bridge that the club was forced to create, at a cost of
$ 1,200,000 just so the public can walk near the water.
Bear in mind that it was all mud and marsh, totally unwalkable, but some genius/es determined that they'd extract a pound of flesh in the name of ?
The clubhouse, attention to detail and most everything about the club is terrific, especially on such a HOSTILE site.
I'm sure, with some fine tuning, that the course will only get better.
It's a must see.
And again, understanding that the site was dead flat at 10' ASL, it's astounding what was accomplished.
Hats off to Eric Bergstol, he did a fabulous job of creating a unique and enjoyable golf course.
Go to Bayonnegolfclub.com and take the tours
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Here here, seconded. Its a fabulous golf course. I still say they should make 14 tee the first hole and finish with 13, that great flagpole hole. Sure it means starting on a par-3, but hey...Royal Lytham and St. Anne's. plus it would give it some cache for being daring and different..an image they like having there...
Moreover, if you buy Golf Architecture Vol. 4 y(paul daley's new book), you can read a terrific chapter on Bayonne.
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There's an 800' bridge that the club was forced to create, at a cost of
$ 1,200,000 just so the public can walk near the water.
Bear in mind that it was all mud and marsh, totally unwalkable, but some genius/es determined that they'd extract a pound of flesh in the name of ?
Patrick,
As a kid who grew up on The Beaches of New Jersey, I am a huge believer in public access to the beach and yes i believe that Bayonne is a "beach" the same way that most of Manhattan has public access to the shoreline.
Maidstone, Newport, National and Sebonnack all have public access between the golf course and the water. Pretty good company for Bayonne GC!
ALS is the main group in this campaign in NJ, but I am not sure if they were involved in BGC.
http://www.littoralsociety.org/protecting_access_shore.aspx
_______________________
A long campaign by the American Littoral Society and other coastal advocates to strengthen the tools to insure that the public has access to the Public Trust areas of the beaches and tidal waters of the state scored a significant victory on December 17, with the adoption of new rules by the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection - giving new life to the Public Trust Doctrine and protecting and creating public access to the shore.
_______________________
On Martha's Vineyard some of the "Beach Keys" for private access to the beach cost up to $250,000+. They take away from the spirit of The Island. The market is down from the $415,000 in this article:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/06/18/for_415000_you_get_the_key_to_a_vineyard_oasis/
Here is a vote for beach and harbor access by the public!
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There's an 800' bridge that the club was forced to create, at a cost of
$ 1,200,000 just so the public can walk near the water.
Bear in mind that it was all mud and marsh, totally unwalkable, but some genius/es determined that they'd extract a pound of flesh in the name of ?
Patrick,
As a kid who grew up on The Beaches of New Jersey, I am a huge believer in public access to the beach and yes i believe that Bayonne is a "beach" the same way that most of Manhattan has public access to the shoreline.
Mike,
There's no beach there, and if there was, you wouldn't go into the water on a bet.[/color]
Maidstone, Newport, National and Sebonnack all have public access between the golf course and the water. Pretty good company for Bayonne GC!
Mike, those courses have nice beaches, nice waterfronts.
Bayonne has mud flats and swampy areas, there is NO beach
Go to Google Earth and look at it.[/color]
ALS is the main group in this campaign in NJ, but I am not sure if they were involved in BGC.
I don't know who was responsible for forcing the club to erect a $ 1,200,000 bridge to no where, but, it's insanity and proof that foolish government intervention drives up costs, unnecessarily, and delays project unreasonably.[/color]
A long campaign by the American Littoral Society and other coastal advocates to strengthen the tools to insure that the public has access to the Public Trust areas of the beaches and tidal waters of the state scored a significant victory on December 17, with the adoption of new rules by the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection - giving new life to the Public Trust Doctrine and protecting and creating public access to the shore.
That's some shore line.
Look at it on Google Earth and tell me that it wasn't a wasteful mandate.[/color]
On Martha's Vineyard some of the "Beach Keys" for private access to the beach cost up to $250,000+. They take away from the spirit of The Island. The market is down from the $415,000 in this article:
It's an absurd comparison.
Please VIEW and examine the shore line you're so concerned about, AND, the bridge to nowhere that cost $ 1,200,000[/color]
Here is a vote for beach and harbor access by the public!
Before you jump on the lunatic bandwagon, why don't you examine the specific site, then render an opinion[/color]
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Bayonne Golf Club Shoreline & Bridge (1)
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Private or Public? Private I assume...
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i knew you'd like it Patrick ;)
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Bayonne Golf Club Shoreline & Bridge (1)
Patrick,
While I will vote for you as Club Dictator, I don't think you will get my vote as Visionary Governor of New Jersey!
New York Harbor Today with Battery Park City and Bayonne GC in the same tidal basin
(http://www.watervilleresearch.com/images/nyh)
Google Aerial of BGC
(http://www.watervilleresearch.com/images/bgc)
Battery Park City in the 1970's
(http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_daveh/batteryparkfill.jpg)
BPC Today
(http://www.johnlumea.com/images/battery_park_city.jpg)
(http://www.downtownny.com/images/imglibrary/45/Battery_Park_City_Esplanade.jpg)
(http://www.timeout.com/newyork/resizeImage/htdocs/export_images/626/626.x600.ft.fish1.jpg)
The fact that the politicians of Jersey were able to get a bunch of golf junkies to pay for and springboard the redevelopment of Bayonne tells me something.
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Paul Thomas,
I had heard about it, but it's not until you drive through the gate, that you begin to understand what's been accomplished. It's incredibly dramatic.
The elevation changes are mind boggling.
The fairway and green undulations are mind boggling.
I don't think there's a flat fairway on the golf course.
Probably the only serious flaw is the lack of a traditional range, although, I did like the "short" range.
I also enjoyed looking up at that massive American Flag on many holes, majestic as it flew proudly in the breeze.
Can you imagine how large it is and how enormous the stress factors are ?
They had to go down 75 feet below the surface to create the foundation/base of that flag pole.
It's a neat golf course.
Walking ONLY.
And, the Caddies were TERRIFIC, great at yardage and sensational at reading greens.
On two greens I didn't believe the read and putted where I thought it would break, but, the caddy was right on the money with his read and kidded me about believing him.
I think it's a course that you adjust to and play better with each repeat visit.
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I echo the sentiments set forth by Pat. I have never been on a new construction course which was so enjoyable with an Old Classic feel. Every hole and detail was incredibly thought out. My hat goes off to Bergstol. Fireman (Liberty National) must have "penal envy"!
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Mike,
Take a close look at this picture, the bridge and the path extending from it that terminates behind the 17th tee, in the upper right section of the picture, just below the circle.
And, the area above the rectangle is under water.
Look at the bridge and where it leads to.
There is NO BEACH.
It's mud flats.
(http://www.watervilleresearch.com/images/bgc)
Saying it's part of the same tidal basin is akin to saying that England and Miami Beach are part of the same Ocean
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I agree with all you said Patrick
my only regret: the day I was there no flag! It was being repaired
my caddie , like you, said it was quite majestic
DEFINITELY a course i would like to play again someday!
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Pat, glad you got to Bayonne. It is a marvel. Given the small acreage, the routing is masterful.
He separates the holes by elevation as much as by distance. The attention to detail is amazing.
The walks between holes looks as though it had been there for decades rather than months.
I played with Dwight Segal (sp?) the head pro and it was fun to hear him describe the building of the course. I played Liberty National the same day and was disappointed. It was good but not great, considering Kite could have done anything he wanted. It was hard though and the prose will have their hands full, especially if the stray from the fairway.
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Tommy,
Agreed.
I really liked the WIDE fairways and the Fescue fairways were in excellent shape, as were the greens.
I also liked the bunker shapes.
When you consider that virtually everything on that site was imported, it's quite a spectucular endeavor.
I intend to take my son to Bayonne, just to see that American Flag, it's inspiring.
And, the closer you get to it, the more impressive it becomes.
It was fully unfurled and flying magnificently in the strong breeze.
I wish I had brought a cameral
One of the fellows I played with mentioned how he missed seeing the World Trade Center, and how most outside of the Metropolitan New York area have pretty much forgotten that day, along with the deaths and the destruction, and that playing that golf course and seeing that Majestic Flag from hole after hole, reminded him of how great America is and that we must be eternally vigilant in protecting it.
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It's mud flats.
And the golf course you are raving about was a flat industrial mess not too long ago. Putting together the walkway started in 1966:
______________________________________________
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/cmp/czm_hudson.html
Since the concept for the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway first appeared in the Regional Plan Association's 1966 study, "The Lower Hudson", it has developed into a major attraction for pedestrians and bicyclists. The Walkway plan envisions a contiguous 18.5 mile long public waterfront corridor traversing nine municipalities in two counties from the George Washington Bridge to the Bayonne Bridge.
Historically, public access to the waterfront in this urban area was precluded by industrial use of the land. As existing land uses change, this "pathway for the people" is reestablishing the public's right of access to and full enjoyment of the tidally flowed and formerly flowed filled waterways. Through coastal regulation, the Department is effectuating the historic principles of the public trust doctrine that originated in Roman times and dates to the early nineteenth century in our State's jurisprudence. The coastal regulations judiciously balance the interests for development of an economically thriving 21st century waterfront with the public's right to outdoor recreation along tidal waters. The walkway integrates historic neighborhoods with new offices, housing and commercial development, all with views of universally recognized landmarks: the Statue of Liberty, the New York skyline, Ellis Island, and the Hudson River.
Despite more than 20 years of economic, political, and regulatory change, this public access initiative has created over 11 miles of walkway with an additional 5.5 miles along roadways of southern Jersey City and Bayonne. The walkway is a testament to the value of imaginative urban planning that considers the public benefit at large.
Recently, through public-private partnerships established among state and local government, commercial developers, and public interest groups, additional segments of walkway have been and will be constructed. In 2002, NJDEP completed its first walkway project outside of Liberty State Park. The NJ Coastal Zone Management Program constructed the project on land leased for 50 years to the City of Hoboken from Stevens Institute of Technology. The city will maintain the 1100 foot long walkway and associated 125 foot long fishing pier as Castle Point Park. The project was constructed using funds from the Federal Highway Administration Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century, NJDOT Discretionary Municipal Aid, the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway Gap Site Appropriation, and NJDEP's Green Acres Program. Design costs were funded in part by the Harbor Cleanup Program.
The Coastal Management Program is coordinating with Stevens Institute to continue the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway for an additional approximately 400 feet south of the Castle Point segment. The new section of walkway, at the proposed site for the Center for Maritime Systems, will link Castle Point Park with Frank Sinatra Park, resulting in a continuous walkway from Union Dry Dock all the way to Hoboken Terminal.
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Patrick,
Thank you for your thoughts. I knew very little about Bayonne until very recently, but have since become very intrigued by it. My only exposure to it has been from their website but I think the place looks incredible. Glad to hear others confirm.
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It's mud flats.
And the golf course you are raving about was a flat industrial mess not too long ago.
I believe that 30 of the 150 acres was an industrial mess.
Have you been on the site ?[/color]
Putting together the walkway started in 1966:
Not to where it extends today.
It DEAD END behind the 16th green.
There are NO BEACHES, no beautiful sites hard by the water.
Bayonne was forced to extend the walkway to nowhere.
Had the authorities you cite had their way the public would have come into the lines of play on # 17.[/color]
______________________________________________
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/cmp/czm_hudson.html
Since the concept for the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway first appeared in the Regional Plan Association's 1966 study, "The Lower Hudson", it has developed into a major attraction for pedestrians and bicyclists.
Not at that location.
That's a costly extension to nowhere, a total waste of money[/color]
The Walkway plan envisions a contiguous 18.5 mile long public waterfront corridor traversing nine municipalities in two counties from the George Washington Bridge to the Bayonne Bridge.
They tried to extend it further, into a terrible area, and only succeeded in getting it to the location behind the 16th green at a great cost to BGC. The bridge alone cost $ 1,200,000, it's a total waste of money.
HAVE YOU SEEN IT IN PERSON ?[/color]
Historically, public access to the waterfront in this urban area was precluded by industrial use of the land. As existing land uses change, this "pathway for the people" is reestablishing the public's right of access to and full enjoyment of the tidally flowed and formerly flowed filled waterways. Through coastal regulation, the Department is effectuating the historic principles of the public trust doctrine that originated in Roman times and dates to the early nineteenth century in our State's jurisprudence. The coastal regulations judiciously balance the interests for development of an economically thriving 21st century waterfront with the public's right to outdoor recreation along tidal waters.
Mike, as a New Yorker I can understand your ignorance when it comes to development in NJ, which has ground to a halt due to COAH and other regulations. If it wasn't for NYC, northern NJ would be decimated, developmentally.[/color]
The walkway integrates historic neighborhoods with new offices, housing and commercial development, all with views of universally recognized landmarks: the Statue of Liberty, the New York skyline, Ellis Island, and the Hudson River.
That's pure horseshit at this location.
You can't see any of those features from that walkway.
You can see a huge building and huge cranes in the distance and MUD FLATS in the foreground.
HAVE YOU BEEN TO THE SITE ?[/color]
Despite more than 20 years of economic, political, and regulatory change, this public access initiative has created over 11 miles of walkway with an additional 5.5 miles along roadways of southern Jersey City and Bayonne. The walkway is a testament to the value of imaginative urban planning that considers the public benefit at large.
Not at that location, unless you consider tank farms and mud flats breath taking.[/color]
HAVE YOU BEEN TO THAT LOCATION ?[/b][/color]
Recently, through public-private partnerships established among state and local government, commercial developers, and public interest groups, additional segments of walkway have been and will be constructed.
You're not up to date on your facts.
There will be NO continuation beyond the present terminus.[/color]
In 2002, NJDEP completed its first walkway project outside of Liberty State Park. The NJ Coastal Zone Management Program constructed the project on land leased for 50 years to the City of Hoboken from Stevens Institute of Technology. The city will maintain the 1100 foot long walkway and associated 125 foot long fishing pier as Castle Point Park.
Mike, it's nice that you're quoting this nonsense, but that site isn't remotely close to the BGC site.
It's miles away.
Please, do yourself a favor and familiarize yourself with the specific site and stop quoting absurd passages that have no bearing on the BGC site.[/color]
The project was constructed using funds from the Federal Highway Administration Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century, NJDOT Discretionary Municipal Aid, the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway Gap Site Appropriation, and NJDEP's Green Acres Program. Design costs were funded in part by the Harbor Cleanup Program.
More horseshit.
BGC was forced to pay for the walkway and bridge at that site, with the bridge to nowhere costing
$ 1,200,000[/color]
The Coastal Management Program is coordinating with Stevens Institute to continue the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway for an additional approximately 400 feet south of the Castle Point segment. The new section of walkway, at the proposed site for the Center for Maritime Systems, will link Castle Point Park with Frank Sinatra Park, resulting in a continuous walkway from Union Dry Dock all the way to Hoboken Terminal.
Mike, that area isn't anywhere near BGC.
Familiarize yourself with the site, and stop quoting nonsense that has NO bearing on the specific site posted in my photo.[/color]
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Dan Chapman,
What also surprised me was the mature look of the golf course.
It looks as if it's been there for some time.
When you look at the website and take the various tours you can see the enormous elevation changes from the adjacent property, all of which was at 10' ASL.
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Thanks for the notes, Patrick. I have wanted to hear more about the course for a while.
Were there any holes there that were particularly memorable?
Just a small point - whilst the flagpole is no doubt impressive, the 75 foot depth of the foundations would be more a factor of the local geology than the forces of the pole. The fill imported onto the site and the presumably weak alluvial mudflats underneath the fill would have limited ability to support structures.
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Given the small acreage, the routing is masterful.
He separates the holes by elevation as much as by distance.
Tommy (and Pat)
interesting words. I will read more about it from Daley's Vol 4. Can you expand on what you mean by separating the holes by elevation as much as by distance? Is it that consecutive holes are played at different elevations, almost akin to being on a different floor of a building? Are there any other combination of holes that have a simialr feeling?
I think of Royal Dornoch #17 as being a great example of a hole that links separate landforms, which in conjunction with #16 get the golfer from the coast to the highland for the last hole. Is this the sort of concept, or soemthing quite different?
James B
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I'd be interested in comments of folks that have now played at Bayonne and Whistling. They would seem to have the same faux links construction origins. Also, a two tiered parallel hole corridor theme seems to be similar.
I watched the various tours and hole by hole on the website. The already heavy texture of the vegitation in the rough and distance of rough width to next hole corridor or OB seem in some spots quite marginal from the flyovers. Perhaps the scale is quite distorted in the videos. What are the playability, and width factors of the rough? Is the rough and the nature of the tremendous vegitation in waste areas and waste bunkers a round killer and time waster? Is it wall to wall bents on FW, approaches and greens?
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It's mud flats.
And the golf course you are raving about was a flat industrial mess not too long ago. Putting together the walkway started in 1966:
______________________________________________
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/cmp/czm_hudson.html
Since the concept for the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway first appeared in the Regional Plan Association's 1966 study, "The Lower Hudson", it has developed into a major attraction for pedestrians and bicyclists. The Walkway plan envisions a contiguous 18.5 mile long public waterfront corridor traversing nine municipalities in two counties from the George Washington Bridge to the Bayonne Bridge.
Historically, public access to the waterfront in this urban area was precluded by industrial use of the land. As existing land uses change, this "pathway for the people" is reestablishing the public's right of access to and full enjoyment of the tidally flowed and formerly flowed filled waterways. Through coastal regulation, the Department is effectuating the historic principles of the public trust doctrine that originated in Roman times and dates to the early nineteenth century in our State's jurisprudence. The coastal regulations judiciously balance the interests for development of an economically thriving 21st century waterfront with the public's right to outdoor recreation along tidal waters. The walkway integrates historic neighborhoods with new offices, housing and commercial development, all with views of universally recognized landmarks: the Statue of Liberty, the New York skyline, Ellis Island, and the Hudson River.
Despite more than 20 years of economic, political, and regulatory change, this public access initiative has created over 11 miles of walkway with an additional 5.5 miles along roadways of southern Jersey City and Bayonne. The walkway is a testament to the value of imaginative urban planning that considers the public benefit at large.
Recently, through public-private partnerships established among state and local government, commercial developers, and public interest groups, additional segments of walkway have been and will be constructed. In 2002, NJDEP completed its first walkway project outside of Liberty State Park. The NJ Coastal Zone Management Program constructed the project on land leased for 50 years to the City of Hoboken from Stevens Institute of Technology. The city will maintain the 1100 foot long walkway and associated 125 foot long fishing pier as Castle Point Park. The project was constructed using funds from the Federal Highway Administration Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century, NJDOT Discretionary Municipal Aid, the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway Gap Site Appropriation, and NJDEP's Green Acres Program. Design costs were funded in part by the Harbor Cleanup Program.
The Coastal Management Program is coordinating with Stevens Institute to continue the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway for an additional approximately 400 feet south of the Castle Point segment. The new section of walkway, at the proposed site for the Center for Maritime Systems, will link Castle Point Park with Frank Sinatra Park, resulting in a continuous walkway from Union Dry Dock all the way to Hoboken Terminal.
Mike
I am completely with you. Some folks just don't get it.
Ciao
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HAVE YOU BEEN TO THE SITE ?[/b][/color]
No, have you been to the Pound Ridge GC site about which you stated "The course was delayed for eleven (11) years by various agencies"?
I will make you a bet double or nothing on that lunch you owe me that I visit the Bayonne GC site before you admit you were wrong on that Pound Ridge thread!
I am serious in saying that there is no way that area around Bayonne GC will look the same in twenty years, and if Bergstal has any cash left, I would think he is trying to buy property around the club.
Back when Atlantic GC first opened, the land around it was a bunch of potato fields on the wrong side of the highway. Today the raw land trades at obscene numbers.
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I am serious in saying that there is no way that area around Bayonne GC will look the same in twenty years, and if Bergstal has any cash left, I would think he is trying to buy property around the club.
Back when Atlantic GC first opened, the land around it was a bunch of potato fields on the wrong side of the highway. Today the raw land trades at obscene numbers.
So you think you can predict the future 20 years from now?
My worthless prediction is that things will look a whole lot different than almost everyone expects.
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I hope to see this magnificent place by the end of the month when I'm down there, but I'm not sure if it's all going to work out, or if that's where we're playing, etc.
I will tell you this--it looks like a phenomenal feat of engineering, design, and vision.
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Thanks for the notes, Patrick. I have wanted to hear more about the course for a while.
Were there any holes there that were particularly memorable?
A good number of them, starting with # 1.
Each hole is truely unique, created out of nothing.[/color]
Just a small point - whilst the flagpole is no doubt impressive, the 75 foot depth of the foundations would be more a factor of the local geology than the forces of the pole.
Having played with the site engineer I can assure you it was the stress factors on the pole, which flys an enormous flag that takes about 10 men to hoist and bring in. A heavy motor operates the lines.
[/color]
The fill imported onto the site and the presumably weak alluvial mudflats underneath the fill would have limited ability to support structures.
There were no mud flats beneath the site where the pole sits.
The mud flats are far removed from that location.
In additions to the fill, fly ash and cement were added.
[/color]
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Given the small acreage, the routing is masterful.
He separates the holes by elevation as much as by distance.
Tommy (and Pat)
interesting words. I will read more about it from Daley's Vol 4. Can you expand on what you mean by separating the holes by elevation as much as by distance? Is it that consecutive holes are played at different elevations, almost akin to being on a different floor of a building?
That element certainly exists, and is employed quite well.[/color]
Are there any other combination of holes that have a simialr feeling?
I think of Royal Dornoch #17 as being a great example of a hole that links separate landforms, which in conjunction with #16 get the golfer from the coast to the highland for the last hole. Is this the sort of concept, or soemthing quite different?
I've never played RD, so I can't comment.[/color]
James B
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I am serious in saying that there is no way that area around Bayonne GC will look the same in twenty years, and if Bergstal has any cash left, I would think he is trying to buy property around the club.
Back when Atlantic GC first opened, the land around it was a bunch of potato fields on the wrong side of the highway. Today the raw land trades at obscene numbers.
So you think you can predict the future 20 years from now?
My worthless prediction is that things will look a whole lot different than almost everyone expects.
Jim, while I agree with your overall premise, the one thing you can say about the NYC metro area is that demand outstrips supply for jsut about everything. I think that provides the underpinning for Mike Sweeney's prediction. Not quite as safe as T bills, but not far behind. :)
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Lucky me, one of my good friends just joined Bayonne last year - and another joined Mountain Ridge!
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HAVE YOU BEEN TO THE SITE ?[/b][/color]
No
[/color]
That doesn't surprise me.
You don't have any concept of the land form in that area. You don't have any concept of the terrible waste of money for the bridge to nowhere and you're totally uniformed with respect to the lack of views from that area.
If you'd look at the aerial I provided, you'd see that the path only continues for an extremely short distance beyond the bridge, making the creation of the bridge a total waste of money.[/color]
I will make you a bet double or nothing on that lunch you owe me that I visit the Bayonne GC site before you admit you were wrong on that Pound Ridge thread!
I'll take you to Bayonne on the condition that you post how incredibly wrong you are about your position on the bridge and the waste of money.
The Pound Ridge project was delayed while the costs kept escalating.[/color]
I am serious in saying that there is no way that area around Bayonne GC will look the same in twenty years, and if Bergstal has any cash left, I would think he is trying to buy property around the club.
I hope I'm here to collect on that bet.
A major deep water port with huge cranes is just north of BGC and I don't think that's going to change.[/color]
Back when Atlantic GC first opened, the land around it was a bunch of potato fields on the wrong side of the highway. Today the raw land trades at obscene numbers.
Mike, why not compare the Monterey Pennisula with Gothenberg, NE ?
There is no comparison.[/color]
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Mike
I am completely with you.
That makes both of you wrong.
Sean, did it ever occur to you that you don't know what you're talking about because you've never been to the specific site under discussion, or do you just like making a fool of yourself ?[/color]
Some folks just don't get it.
And you're one of them.
You have ZERO familiarity with the site.
You simply don't know what you're talking about.
It's one thing to remain silent and have people think you're a fool, it's quite another to open your mouth and prove it, which you've done admirably. Thanks.
But, if I can forgive Mike for his ignorance due to his being 8 miles removed from the site I guess I can forgive your ignorance due to your being removed by 3,000+ miles from the site.[/color]
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I can't help but compare the discussion of this course to the discussion of the new Castle Course. Melvyn Morrow mentioned this on that thread: "If this land can be butchered beyond recognition for golf so can other areas around the world, hence my comment regards Land Fit for Purpose."
And Mark Chaplin said: "Ruining the land - a links course sits on a specific type of naturally formed land, can a bulldozer and a few 1000 lorry loads of sand create "true" linkland conditions??"
Now needless to say that whatever was there before the building of Bayonne Golf Club, it wasn't an unspoilt natural site like the one where the Castle Course was built (even though that was not a natural "links" site). Few might argue that this part of New Jersey was "destroyed" by building this course. But to get down to the nitty gritty - this course is "fake." To what degree is that an issue for those of you who have played it? Does it increase your respect for the architect because it was so well done, or does it make you in any way yearn for something more authentic? Or is the point moot because the course is so enjoyable?
I haven't played the course, but I would probably love it. The sleight-of-hand needed to create it seems like craft to me, and I admire craft. But for those who would criticize the Castle Course or Kingsbarns because of their inherent, man-made "unnatural-ness," does the same standard apply to Bayonne?
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Mike
I am completely with you.
That makes both of you wrong.
Sean, did it ever occur to you that you don't know what you're talking about because you've never been to the specific site under discussion, or do you just like making a fool of yourself ?[/color]
Some folks just don't get it.
And you're one of them.
You have ZERO familiarity with the site.
You simply don't know what you're talking about.
It's one thing to remain silent and have people think you're a fool, it's quite another to open your mouth and prove it, which you've done admirably. Thanks.
But, if I can forgive Mike for his ignorance due to his being 8 miles removed from the site I guess I can forgive your ignorance due to your being removed by 3,000+ miles from the site.[/color]
Pat
My father taught me to dismiss those who make assumptions about one's knowledge. I reckon in dealing with you, its very sound advice.
Ciao
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The bridge that Bayonne GC was "forced" to build is a fragment of the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway.
The Walkway was supposed to continue past the 16th green and past the driving range; going pretty much all around the south-east perimeter of the golf course all the way to the industrial area.
But Homeland Security recommended against completing the walkway, because the public would be able to wander around the Most Dangerous Mile in America (the Chemical Mile) - Bayonne's industrial/chemical area adjacent to BGC, where tanker cars of deadly chlorine gas are processed daily.
So the walkway ends where it ends.
BTW - there is no reason for Mucci to get his knickers in a twist over the bridge. It is a practice as old as modern civilization that municipalities get developers do extra stuff in exchange for permits.
Here are a few points:
1. The Bayonne public uses it on a daily basis for walks - it's a terrific walk - makes for good neighborly relations between BGC and Bayonne
2. BGC uses it daily for maintenance - I see all kinds of golf course vehicles with golf course workers using the bridge all the time
3. I believe Bayonne was initially promised a public golf course by Cherokee - the site development economics forced Bergstol's hand into making it private, so Bayonne countered with some tee-times for residents and the walkway for the public (although, as indicated below, the walkway - including the bridge - could have been required by law)
4. Liberty National was also "forced" to make a beautiful walkway for the public as part of Hudson River Waterfront Walkway - that walkway also looks to have cost about a mil.
Sorry, Pat, as a Hudson County resident I am THRILLED that both BGC and LNGC were "shaken down" by big, bad municipal governments to give something to the public besides fenced-off private properties in the midst of the most densely populated county in the nation.
And maybe, just maybe, when all the chemical industry leaves Bayonne and Jersey City, the Bridge at the Bayonne Golf Course won't lead to nowhere anymore, but will be a part of a continuous green belt called Hudson river Waterfront Walkway, which is being developed by people with vision.
PS - I just found this article.
Bayonne might have been just enforcing the law, not strong-arming Bergstol.
Judge Upholds Law on Waterfront Access
August 19, 1999
Turning aside complaints from developers, a Federal judge has upheld a state rule guaranteeing public access to an 18-mile walkway along the Hudson River.
A lawsuit by the builders marked the first time in the nation that an entire set of regulations on waterfront access was challenged on constitutional grounds, said Ann Alexander, a staff lawyer at the Rutgers Environmental Law Clinic, which joined other environmental groups and the state in defending the rules.
''There has been a disturbing trend of late toward privatization of the waterfront, but this decision sends a clear signal to developers that there are limits to that,'' Ms. Alexander said today.
A lawyer for the New Jersey Builders Association and the National Association of Homebuilders did not return a call seeking comment.
Judge Garrett E. Brown Jr. of Federal District Court filed his ruling last Thursday and lawyers learned of it on Tuesday, Ms. Alexander said.
The builders challenged a 1988 regulation in which the State Department of Environmental Protection requires developers along the Hudson to build and maintain a 30-foot-wide walkway that is open to the public. Their suit cited the Fifth Amendment's clause against government's taking property or diminishing its value without compensation.
The Hudson River Waterfront Walkway runs between the Bayonne and George Washington Bridges through nine towns. Fifteen miles are completed, and the remaining three miles are being designed.
The Shelter Bay Club complex in Edgewater used gates to close off its walkway because of vandalism. The state is trying to force its reopening.
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Voytek -
Thanks for the facts! A little knowledge goes a long way.
DT
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Pat--Not to take the thread off topic, but we still haven't seen your promised groundbreaking survery results, or whatever you had in mind, from our lingering "best 18 par X holes" threads. Results of said survery were promised last weekend. I was hopeful this was your results.
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I'd be interested in comments of folks that have now played at Bayonne and Whistling. They would seem to have the same faux links construction origins. Also, a two tiered parallel hole corridor theme seems to be similar.
I'm curious about the Bayonne/Whistling Straits question, too. Has anyone played both?
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J. Kenneth:
I wouldn't hold your breath. Those threads were heading to the same destination as the bridge in question.
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SPDB-I'm certainly not holding my breath, but it has been long promised that we would see some type of results from those surveys, seeming something really groundbreaking. I am simply reminding him we have yet to see anything. I would like to see whatever the results are to be, I went through minutes of headache to generate my lists of best holes.
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It is very difficult to compare WS and Bayonne. Whistling Straights is built on much more land. The land surrounding WS looks like unkempt dunes, just like Ireland. Bayonne does not have the land to pull that off. It makes a climb up to about 100 feet in elevation where WS stays closer to the elevation of the lake. The grass and vegetation at Bayonne is closer to what you would find in Ireland. They planted different plants etc than they have in Ireland, but the look is very similar. The grass at WS especially in front of the greens is pretty American.
Which do I like better? It is a toss up. I could player either as a steady diet.
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Having played with the site engineer I can assure you it was the stress factors on the pole, which flys an enormous flag that takes about 10 men to hoist and bring in. A heavy motor operates the lines.
Patrick,
Sorry, hadn't relised you had played with the site engineer. I design foundations for flag poles for a living, but I will defer to your greater expertise on this one. Sounds like an impressive structure, I look forward to seeing it one day.
Back to architecture:
You mention the course had a few blind shots. Are these mainly on tee shots or second shots?
You mention that the course needs a bit of fine tuning. What specifically do you think needs to be improved?
How would you describe the green complexes? Was there much variety in them? Big? Small? Undulating? many bunkers around them? short grass or rough surrounds?
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The bridge that Bayonne GC was "forced" to build is a fragment of the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway.
That's what makes it even more absurd.
The fragment is a measely extension of 200 yards from the bridge's eastern end.
Why force someone to spend $ 1,200,000 to get 200 more yards of path, especially when the view is of a huge building and cranes.
If it was your money you wouldn't be so quick to support the project and spend the funds for 200 yards.[/color]
The Walkway was supposed to continue past the 16th green and past the driving range; going pretty much all around the south-east perimeter of the golf course all the way to the industrial area.
But Homeland Security recommended against completing the walkway, because the public would be able to wander around the Most Dangerous Mile in America (the Chemical Mile) - Bayonne's industrial/chemical area adjacent to BGC, where tanker cars of deadly chlorine gas are processed daily.
I believe the tank farm was the problem for failure to complete GAP Bay 8.
The railroad tracks are offset from the intended route of the path along the shoreline.[/color]
So the walkway ends where it ends.
Which gets to the point.
The walkway ends only a short distance from where the 800' bridge makes landfall on the eastern end.
Which means that BGC was forced to spend over $ 1,200,000 on a bridge just to extend a path for two hundred yards. It's pure insanity.[/color]
BTW - there is no reason for Mucci to get his knickers in a twist over the bridge. It is a practice as old as modern civilization that municipalities get developers do extra stuff in exchange for permits.
Evidently the New Jersey Supreme Court recently got their knickers in a twist when they ruled that municipalities can no longer "shake down" (extort) payments in cash or kind from developers. Fire Engines were a popular method of exchange, but fortunately the State Supreme Court recognized the onerous implications of this long standing practice, and ruled against it.[/color]
Here are a few points:
1. The Bayonne public uses it on a daily basis for walks - it's a terrific walk - makes for good neighborly relations between BGC and Bayonne
More nonsense. The path ends two hundred yards from the end of the bridge. On a beautiful day I only saw three people use the bridge, and two were fishing near the end. Not to mention the aroma from the mud flats which the bridge traverses. It's hardly an idyllic setting[/color]
2. BGC uses it daily for maintenance - I see all kinds of golf course vehicles with golf course workers using the bridge all the time
Given the choice of spending over $ 1,200,000 or having the maintainance vehicles ride down the 8th hole to service a small section of the site, I'll guarantee you that they'd choose the 8th hole over $ 1,200,000.[/color]
3. I believe Bayonne was initially promised a public golf course by Cherokee - the site development economics forced Bergstol's hand into making it private, so Bayonne countered with some tee-times for residents and the walkway for the public (although, as indicated below, the walkway - including the bridge - could have been required by law)
Are you sure you're not confusing this project with the Meadowlands golf course project ?
If Bayonne forced BGC to grant tee times to the public, then the golf club isn't a strictly private facility, and thus subject the State's anti-discrimination statutes. Are you positive about this ?
Who decides who plays and when ?[/color]
4. Liberty National was also "forced" to make a beautiful walkway for the public as part of Hudson River Waterfront Walkway - that walkway also looks to have cost about a mil.
Liberty National is an entirely different site and issue.
Liberty National is a real estate development with a golf course.[/color]
Sorry, Pat, as a Hudson County resident I am THRILLED that both BGC and LNGC were "shaken down" by big, bad municipal governments to give something to the public besides fenced-off private properties in the midst of the most densely populated county in the nation.
The New Jersey Supreme Court agrees with you on "shake downs" and recently ruled against them.
You can't look at the issue at arm's length or as a disinterested party because you have a vested interest.
If Hudson County indicated that they were going to tax you $ 500 to build the bridge, I'm pretty sure you would have opposed it.
But, since somebody else was "shaken down" to pay for it, you're all in favor of a free lunch. If the funds had to come out of your pocket I don't think you'd be so supportive.
Unlike you, I have no vested interest in this issue, hence, I think my understanding and vision of the more global implications are clearer.[/color]
And maybe, just maybe, when all the chemical industry leaves Bayonne and Jersey City, the Bridge at the Bayonne Golf Course won't lead to nowhere anymore, but will be a part of a continuous green belt called Hudson river Waterfront Walkway, which is being developed by people with vision.
Right, when all the businesses and commerce leaves, and there are no jobs in Bayonne, you and all of the other environmental advocates will be happy. What you and others don't understand is that companies have a choice of where they'll conduct business. And when government creates a hostile and/or burdensome taxing environment, they'll move elsewhere and unemployment will skyrocket, home values will plummet and only then will bureaucrats scratch their heads and say, "what happened, what went wrong ?" Then, the residents that still remain will have plenty of time to contemplate why they're unemployed as they enjoy their thrice daily walks.[/color]
PS - I just found this article.
Why don't you post the article, not what you've chosen to type ?
Please identify the case so I can researach it for myself.[/color]
Bayonne might have been just enforcing the law, not strong-arming Bergstol.
Baloney.
Once it was determined that the GAP BAY 8 route couldn't extend beyond the designated point, there was no need to force the club to build an 800 foot bridge to nowhere, one that would only extend the path by 200 yards.
[/color]
Judge Upholds Law on Waterfront Access
August 19, 1999
Turning aside complaints from developers, a Federal judge has upheld a state rule guaranteeing public access to an 18-mile walkway along the Hudson River.
A lawsuit by the builders marked the first time in the nation that an entire set of regulations on waterfront access was challenged on constitutional grounds, said Ann Alexander, a staff lawyer at the Rutgers Environmental Law Clinic, which joined other environmental groups and the state in defending the rules.
''There has been a disturbing trend of late toward privatization of the waterfront, but this decision sends a clear signal to developers that there are limits to that,'' Ms. Alexander said today.
A lawyer for the New Jersey Builders Association and the National Association of Homebuilders did not return a call seeking comment.
Judge Garrett E. Brown Jr. of Federal District Court filed his ruling last Thursday and lawyers learned of it on Tuesday, Ms. Alexander said.
The builders challenged a 1988 regulation in which the State Department of Environmental Protection requires developers along the Hudson to build and maintain a 30-foot-wide walkway that is open to the public. Their suit cited the Fifth Amendment's clause against government's taking property or diminishing its value without compensation.
To force a developer to spend over $ 1,200,000 for a bridge that only extends the path by 200 yards is insane. If the money to build the bridge came out of your pocket you'd scream bloody murder and you know it.
This was sheer folly.
Why did you fail to mention that if the path had been allowed to continue to Constable Point that golfers would have to tee off on # 17 with people (the public) walking directly in their flight path.
If they were hit, would the club be liable ?
If they were hit, would governmental agencies seek to shut down the hole ?
The golf course ?
Make the golf course spend more money to reroute # 17 ?[/color]
The Hudson River Waterfront Walkway runs between the Bayonne and George Washington Bridges through nine towns. Fifteen miles are completed, and the remaining three miles are being designed.
Have you walked it from one end to the other ?[/color]
The Shelter Bay Club complex in Edgewater used gates to close off its walkway because of vandalism. The state is trying to force its reopening.
David Tepper,
In what context do you determine whether or not Voytek has presented the facts ?
He is biased, he has a dog in the fight. I have none.
Who's the independent party, Voytek or myself ?
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Pat--Not to take the thread off topic,
Baloney, you intended to take the thread off topic, that's why you posted what you did.[/color]
but we still haven't seen your promised groundbreaking survery results, or whatever you had in mind, from our lingering "best 18 par X holes" threads.
Are you sure ?
Didn't I start a thread re: assessing the talent/merits of an architect based on his design of par 5's ?[/color]
Results of said survery were promised last weekend.
I had better things to do last weekend.
I spent it playing NGLA and Westhampton
And, I never promised any results of any survey.
Please have someone read my posts to you as you don't seem to be able to comprehend the typed word.[/color]
I was hopeful this was your results.
It's not.
And, the thread you reference was never intended to post the results of any survey.
As to another thread, I'll get around to it when I feel like it.
In the meantime, feel free to create any threads you deem worthy.[/color]
Do PAR 5's define the architect's inate talent ?
« on: June 30, 2008, 08:02:17 pm »
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Par 3's seem simple to design and build.
Par 4's a little more complicated.
It seems that par 5's are the most difficult to design.
Could that be the reason why many courses only have two or three of them ?
Are PAR 5's one of the key indicators, along with routing, by which we should judge the quality of an architect's work ?
Can an architect whose par 5's are mediocre to lacking, ever be considered great ?
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Sorry, hadn't relised you had played with the site engineer.
I design foundations for flag poles for a living, but I will defer to your greater expertise on this one.
As a PH.D, P.E. and the site engineer intimately familiar with every aspect of the project, I believe this fellow knows more than you, myself and the entire GCA.com crew regarding the flag pole and everything else at BGC.
So, I have to take him at his word.
Sounds like an impressive structure, I look forward to seeing it one day.
It's truely impressive and majestic
Back to architecture:
You mention the course had a few blind shots. Are these mainly on tee shots or second shots?
Mainly on second shots.[/color]
You mention that the course needs a bit of fine tuning. What specifically do you think needs to be improved?
Because they wanted the course ready for play, to have that mature look on opening day, I believe that the Fescue rough is too thick. I think it needs to be thinned out a bit. It's magnificent to look at, serves a purpose, but, it's too penal.
I know a number of clubs that have embarked upon projects to thin out their Fescue roughs. I think BGC would benefit from such a project.[/color]
How would you describe the green complexes?
Fabulous, with plenty of pitch and contour and variety in shape.
They tend to be large with a pinch of the "greens within greens" concept.
[/color]
Was there much variety in them? Big? Small? Undulating?
Yes.
Please take the tours on their website and you can see for yourself.[/color]
many bunkers around them? short grass or rough surrounds?
All of the above.
They had great variety.
Each one is different and each one plays differently, from the approach shot to recoveries.
It was a terrific golf experience.
I enjoyed the course.
Again, I'm sure that they'll fine tune the course over time, to make it better and better, but, it's off to a very good start.[/color]
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J. Kenneth:
I wouldn't hold your breath. Those threads were heading to the same destination as the bridge in question.
SPDB
That's only because some chose to fixate on that element of the thread.
They had ample opportunity to discuss the golf course and the architecture, but chose not to.
Some even chose to divert the discussion on BGC by referencing other threads.
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I'm hoping to play Bayonne later this summer.
I'm certainly hoping it's better than Whistling Straits, based on the hype I've heard.
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I'm hoping to play Bayonne later this summer.
I'm certainly hoping it's better than Whistling Straits, based on the hype I've heard.
Mike,
I think you'll enjoy it immensely.
I don't want to overhype it, but, when you consider what existed on that land, flat land at 10' ASL, you have to be impressed by what Eric accomplished.
Let us know your thoughts after your round.
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In reading the "in the news" button on the Bayonne website, I have changed my question slightly. I was asking for a comparison to Whistling Straits. But, it seems the construction required mixing Portland cement with the soupy dredged up sludge that was the base of the property is something more akin to Chambers Bay. While Chambers didn't have sludge to deal with, it had enormous mass sub grading of an old lime kiln Portland Cement production quarry. Thus both requiring massive capping of topsoil and sand. So, to that extent, the grading - shaping techniques must have been similar. If I can only guess the look and feel of the course off the photo tour on Bayonnes part, and having seen Chambers, I have to lean towards suspecting that Chambers was a bigger success in the creating faux links department.
I also wonder what the prospects for that 'fescue' are in terms of keeping it manageable. It already looks like more of a mish mash of broadleaf weeds and brush and such than predominantly 'fescue'. I think the article referred to planting 'scotch broom'. But, I just suspect that the rough/narrow dunes corridors ares the week point on this property, and wonder how it will be managed to keep the course playable, going forward.
Also, the requirement for a pedestrian thouroughfare might be more comparable with CB.
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If Bayonne forced BGC to grant tee times to the public, then the golf club isn't a strictly private facility, and thus subject the State's anti-discrimination statutes. Are you positive about this ?
Who decides who plays and when ?[/b][/color]
http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,1682681-0,00.html
From Sports Illustrated:
The golf club annually sets aside 200 special half-price rounds for Bayonne residents, but a good walk spoiled (there are no carts at this walking-only course) still costs $200 plus another $100 or so for a caddie. Since Bayonne Golf Club opened on Memorial Day weekend in 2006, no more than a half-dozen locals have taken advantage of the offer.
"It's like another world," says Mike Solski, 33, who works at Pompei Pizza (est. 1961) and has little time for golf. "Not that it brings in a lot of revenue for other people in the town."
Sometimes the steam from the pizza can get in a workingman's eyes. Maybe the economic impact doesn't create a giant ripple in the Bayonne economy — 10.1% of residents were below the poverty level in 1999, higher than the state's 8.5% average — but there are at least 25 city residents working at the golf club, a number that figures to double when the $20 million clubhouse opens next year. The club also employs the services of a number of local companies. Bayonne Golf Club pays more than $1 million in property taxes, and it has built a public-access walkway to the edge of New York Bay, an area that once belonged to stray dogs at the dump.
But the hidden benefit to the city provided by this hidden gem of a golf course came to the environment. The old landfills did not have a closure plan to keep contaminants out of the bay. The cost to the city for closure of the landfills, to bring them up to environmental code, was going to run into the millions. Bergstol put it on his tab. O.K., the place still isn't Kiawah Island, but the wetlands mitigation around the course has been a resounding success. In an early environmental study there were 189 fish in the area. A recent study pegged the number at more than 10,000.
.........
Of the 200 members who are considered local — people who reside within 150 miles; only a couple live in Bayonne—there is a healthy Wall Street/Masters of the Universe representation. (There is also a sporting touch: Members include Greg Anthony, Boomer Esiason, Dan Marino and NBC golf anchor Dan Hicks.) For perhaps three quarters of the 250 members, among them four women, Bayonne is a second or even a third club.
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Patrick,
If this membership has to kick in $5000 a piece to let the local kids have access to fish the waterway rather than the dogs at the dump, who gets hurt? The club is successful, Bergstal is obviously a smart guy and I doubt he was surprised by any of this.
First I have to teach you about CT/Westchester development, now New Jersey, what next Notre Dame Football???
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Mike,
You're missing the point.
For $ 5,000 per member, you only get an additional 200 yards of pathway over the bridge. It's insanity. And, it's a remote site, it's not like it's next to a housing development.
I doubt any kids will be venturing there on their leisure time.
And, what will the next demand be ?
That's the danger
If you're going to attempt to teach me about ND football, then I guess it's only fair that I teach you about BC basketball ;D
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I'm hoping to play Bayonne later this summer.
I'm certainly hoping it's better than Whistling Straits, based on the hype I've heard.
What was your problem with WS?
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I certainly have neither time nor inclination to read the entire NJ DEP 1988 directive regarding the creation of the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway.
It had been challenged in court by developers but was eventually upheld, whether Pat agrees with it or not.
Therefore, every developer who builds on the part of the NJ shoreline designated in the directive must also provide the 30-ft wide public walkway along the perimeter of the property which abuts the water.
Most of the developers who must comply with this law develop new housing. Liberty National developed a golf course with planned housing. BGC has no housing, but is a private golf course. I have not read the law, but I suspect that they also had to comply with the DEP 30-ft walkway requirement.
Whether the Walkway is currently continuous is totally beside the point.
It was not designed to be continuous from the beginning.
The BGC part of it was supposed to wrap around the whole perimeter of the course adjacent to water all the way to Constable Hook (hence the bridge), but Homeland Security recommended against it, so the work on the walkway has stopped at the current Helipad location (a good financial break for BGC, actually).
Pat's argument that the bridge is insanity because 800 ft of it only extends the walkway by 200 yards is invalid, bacause the walkway WAS supposed to continue all the way to Constable Hook.
Regarding the flying balls on 17th - since the walkway requirement had presumably been known from the beginning, the golf course should have been designed to protect the walking public from a close encounter with a struck golf ball.
Alternatively, a protective steel mesh canopy could be installed, like along the 18th hole at Liberty National, which is contiguous to their part of the Walkway.
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I certainly have neither time nor inclination to read the entire NJ DEP 1988 directive regarding the creation of the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway.
It had been challenged in court by developers but was eventually upheld, whether Pat agrees with it or not.
Therefore, every developer who builds on the part of the NJ shoreline designated in the directive must also provide the 30-ft wide public walkway along the perimeter of the property which abuts the water.
Most of the developers who must comply with this law develop new housing. Liberty National developed a golf course with planned housing. BGC has no housing, but is a private golf course. I have not read the law, but I suspect that they also had to comply with the DEP 30-ft walkway requirement.
Whether the Walkway is currently continuous is totally beside the point.
It's not beside the point, it is the point.
The walkway ends 200 yards past the bridge, making the bridge a ridiculous extravaganza and costing BGC more than $ 1,200,000.[/color]
It was not designed to be continuous from the beginning.
Yes it was.[/color]
The BGC part of it was supposed to wrap around the whole perimeter of the course adjacent to water all the way to Constable Hook (hence the bridge), but Homeland Security recommended against it, so the work on the walkway has stopped at the current Helipad location (a good financial break for BGC, actually).
Once HS determined that the walkway would end where it did, there was no need to force BGC to build a bridge, at the cost of over $ 1,200,000 just to extend the walkway by 200 yards. It's a total waste of money.[/color]
Pat's argument that the bridge is insanity because 800 ft of it only extends the walkway by 200 yards is invalid, bacause the walkway WAS supposed to continue all the way to Constable Hook.
My argument remains valid. "Supposed to" and "reality" are two different things. The reality is that the walkway was terminated behind the 16th green.
Once it was established that the walkway could not procede further, and would terminate where it does, there was NO need to force BGC to build an 800 foot bridge to get a measely 200 yards of walkway at a cost in excess of $ 1,200,000. It was a totally wasteful mandate.[/color]
Regarding the flying balls on 17th - since the walkway requirement had presumably been known from the beginning, the golf course should have been designed to protect the walking public from a close encounter with a struck golf ball.
And how would you propose to do that ?
It would ruin a golf course that's woefully short on available land.[/color]
Alternatively, a protective steel mesh canopy could be installed, like along the 18th hole at Liberty National, which is contiguous to their part of the Walkway.
How many more millions would it cost to build a 1,000 foot canopy ?
How would that look ?
BGC came in and converted a horrendous eyesore, a terrible site into something magnificent and you and your kind want to force him to spend more money.......... for what ? So that you can walk another 200 yards ?
It's patently insane, and indicative of the problem/s with government today.[/color]
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Pat, I think HS halted the construction of the walkway after the bridge was already built.
I am basing my opinion on an article I saw online from some Hudson County online paper.
All in all, I think that Hudson River Waterfront Walkway isea is most emphatically NOT an example of government going berserk, but rather a good idea in a county such as Hudson County, the most densely populated county in the nation, and also one of the most most industrial.
Over and out.
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Pat, I think HS halted the construction of the walkway after the bridge was already built.
I am basing my opinion on an article I saw online from some Hudson County online paper.
I'll try to find out.[/color]
All in all, I think that Hudson River Waterfront Walkway isea is most emphatically NOT an example of government going berserk, but rather a good idea in a county such as Hudson County, the most densely populated county in the nation, and also one of the most most industrial.
I'm not saying that the entire project is ill conceived, only that mandating that bridge, at a cost in excess of $ 1,200,000, to add a measely 200 yards of walkway was wasteful.
However, I do have a problem when government confiscates property without properly compensating the owner of the property.[color]
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Check out this article... (http://www.hudsonreporter.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17055180&BRD=1291&PAG=461&dept_id=532622&rfi=6)
This particular article doesn't appear to address whether or not the bridge had been built prior to Homeland Security getting involved, but there's lots of good info.
The article left both me and my wife looking at each other and saying the same two words:
"Kayak Launch?"
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Kirk Gill,
Thanks for the article.
Do you think Voytek wrote that letter ? ;D
The NJ DEP is an eccentric organization.
While the article cited indicates that BGC was caught between conflicting agencies, I could list a number of outrageous situations, perhaps the best of all is when the NJ DEP requested a permit from the NJ DEP and the NJ DEP rejected the application.
It doesn't get better than that.
It's obvious that common sense isn't so common and that power corrupts.
But, rather than talk about the absurdities impacting the golf course, there should be more discussion on the golf course.
Viewing BGC's website, bayonnegolfclub.com is very informative and gives you an idea about how high up the entire golf course sits and that everything on that golf course was imported.
It's quite an accomplishment, especially when you consider the three dimensional aspect of the golf course.
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Do you think Voytek wrote that letter ? ;D
Nope.
I love what Bayonne did with the walkway.
But I did overhear some Bayonne residents being quite upset that the golf balls hit into the aqua-range might harm the waterfowl.
They seemed really PO-d and I would not be surprised if that took such a cowardly action as to write an anonymous letter.
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Anyone know how much the covered walkway at Pelican Hills in Irvine, CA cost? God it was hideous. Talk about "rules" (laws made by unelected b-crates answerable to no-one) that in principal "sound good" but in the reality of site-specific application - horrendous. Glad to see you all get to see the inane stuff we archies have to put up with and design around.
While I hear alot of praise for the course, the real magic was actually coming up with a design solution the could even be permitted and built - that's where the design team earned their fee. But, alas, all the golfing public ever sees (and comments on) is the finished product. Too bad I hear criticism from 'experts' who don't have the foggyist idea of WHY it HAD to be designed and built a certain way. I'm sure that bridge and walkway might of had a major impact in the routing of the course as the safety of the pedestrians would need to be taken into account. Had there been no bridge, you might have ended up with something completely different -whether better or worse - no one will ever know.
I also have to wonder if the course would have been public, if they still would have had the bridge jammed down their throats under the premise "it's not truely public access because you have to pay to use the course" and at what the greens fee would have had to be to be economical, "and at that price, only rich-eleatists can afford access, not the poor common man".
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Do you think Voytek wrote that letter ? ;D
Nope.
I love what Bayonne did with the walkway.
But I did overhear some Bayonne residents being quite upset that the golf balls hit into the aqua-range might harm the waterfowl.
I'd be more worried about the Staten Island Ferry, Huge freight and tanker ships and other pollutants than a small cordoned off aqua range.
When you think about it, it's quite amazing, Eric Bergstol does something fabulous for the land and Bayonne, using ONLY his money, and some idiots complain about ridiculous aspects of the project.
Would they prefer it the old way ?
Did they donate money to improve the area before Bergstol became involved ?[/color]
They seemed really PO-d and I would not be surprised if that took such a cowardly action as to write an anonymous letter.
People tend to redirect their angst to more prominent targets, so I wouldn't doubt it. However, that range was approved by the DEP and other agencies, so I don't think there's much to be concerned about.
Perhaps the next complaint will be that the golf course and clubhouse block the wind.[/color]