Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Pete Lavallee on May 31, 2008, 03:09:35 PM
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Are they really hosting the US Open at Torrey Pines? Apparently so; there can’t be a more polarizing US Open site in the history of the Championship. As a start let me ask you what do Nicklaus, Watson, Miller, Woods, Weiskopf, Palmer, Mickelson, Love, Olazabal, O’Meara, Tway, Zoeller, Stadler and Daly have in common, other than the fact that they have all won a Major? Well they have all won at Torrey Pines also. Why would a golf course that identifies such great players be so castigated by the gca crowd for holding a US Open? Well, certainly because it has never been regarded as a great course. Tom Doak gave the original version a 3 in The Confidential Guide. Recent revisions by The Open Doctor himself, Rees Jones, have only elevated the course to the 12th best in the whole state of California places you can play rank per the latest Golfweek ratings. It doesn't even crack the top 30 in the State of Cal. per Golf Digest.
Many factors contribute this phenomenon. The site of the golf course was previously used by the US Army for Camp Callin during WWII. Surely the military eliminated any interesting micro undulations from the site to suit their needs. During a recent installation of the waste water irrigation system it was apparent that the site is composed of unfriendly soils; red clay and decomposed granite that were capped with 6 inches of top soil. Any attempts to recontour the fairways in the redesign would have been complicated; the top soil would need to be stripped away before the recontouring and then redistributed at an even layer.
Consider also that the entire redesign project had to be completed in less than 3 months. Using the 3.5 million dollars raised by the “Friends of Torrey Pines” the project started right after the prestigious Junior World Championship was held in early September of 2000. The entire redesign was completed in 91 days, the golf course was given the month of January to grow in and the Buick Invitational was contested in early February of 2001; a very ambitious plan indeed. Certainly there was limited time to attend to the fine tuning and attention to detail that is so evident in the finest courses of the world. However the project obviously met the criterion of its planners; turn a long but mundane track into a course worthy of holding the US Open. The parameters of the redesign meshed perfectly with the wants of the USGA; 7600 yards of length, to force an occasional mid iron into the hands of the world’s best players. The greens, which are all composed of 3 flat sections which can accommodate the anticipated the 13 stimp meter readings, are separated by ridges creating small targets for the contestants. The greenside bunkers were all deepened; seemingly a must requirement to host an Open in the 21st Century; see Oakmont and Merion. There is no question that the new Torrey Pines South is a hard golf course.
The detractors have some valid points. Other than the small dip in front of the par 4 2cnd and the large swale on the par 5 13th, there is very little elevation change within the golf course; as you will see from the pictures, the golf course does not photograph well from ground level. The pictures in the recent USGA Open magazine all appear to be taken from a ladder or cherry picker to provide some prospective. Other than the 6th and 7th, which dogleg around a canyon, the holes are all dead straight.
The run up to the Open has brought several changes. The par 5 6th hole will be played as a 500 yard par 4. Trees along the canyon edge were cleared and an additional bunker was placed in the string of 3 that were on the outside edge of the dogleg. A new tee was added at the par 5 13th that will stretch the hole to 613 yards; requiring a 240 yard carry over the canyon. A year long project was undertaken during 2007 to increase the percentage and quality of the Kikuyu grass with the fairways. The water was turned off and carts were relegated to the new continuous cart path. The fairways are now almost completely Kikuyu and provide an excellent surface to play off. The greens were allowed to be infested with Poa Annua, replacing the A-4 Bent that refused to thrive in the cool coastal climate. The rough has been over seeded with Rye and is 5 inches in depth. When 18 new greens were built it was necessary to then tie them in to the existing fairways. This was done with a Bermuda, Rye combination. It is now possible to run the ball onto every green because not only are they all unprotected in the front by bunkers, but the grassing scheme will allow the ball to bounce forward; you would be unable to accomplish this with a Kikuyu approach.
And now, on to the course. These photos were taken on May 16, 4 days before the course was closed to prepare for the Open. Here are the Wardian statistics, from the back tees the scorecard says: par 72, 7628 yards, slope 143 and CR 78.1 (you can add the 74 extra yards from the new tee on 13 to come to 7701; still not long enough to put long irons into the players hands or keep them off the par 5’s in 2).
#1 par 4 450 yards Here is the view many will see on a cool spring morning; fog and or marine layer are certainly likely;
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0003_IMG.jpg)
Here is a view from the tee taken last summer during the Kikuyu improvement program:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/torrey1a.jpg)
And the second shot from the ideal landing area.
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/torrey1b.jpg)
#2 is the shortest par 4 on the course at 389 yards; Rees built a 30 yard long bunker to guard the left side.
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0004_IMG.jpg)
The view to the green shows the large swale just before it. This is the green with the most front to back slope on the course:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0005_IMG.jpg)
This is the shot from the 200 yard tee to #3. The hole was vastly improved by moving the green 30 yards to the left to bring the canyon into play. The green and accompanying bunker are functional but utterly bereft of visual charm:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0006_IMG.jpg)
This is the completely different angle from the 145 yard tee which is promised to be used for the most difficult hole locations:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0007_IMG.jpg)
The 488 yard par 4 4th:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0008_IMG.jpg)
These Torrey Pines were transplanted from the left side of the fairway to the right to, in Director of Golf Mark Woodward’s terms, “make a true seaside hole”. They also block players from driving to the 5th fairway for a better angle to the difficult left pin position:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/torrey4.jpg)
The shot into the green.
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0009_IMG.jpg)
This bank was recently mown to fairway height to allow players to carrom their shots into the green:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0010_IMG.jpg)
The par 4 5th hole measures 454 yards and has probably the tightest landing area, as the two bunkers pinch the ideal tee shot in true “Jones, Open Doctor fashion”:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0011_IMG.jpg)
The shot into the green:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0012_IMG.jpg)
This is what the tee shot on #6 looked like before the Eucalyptus trees were removed from the edge of the canyon:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/torrey6.jpg)
Now a solitary gum tree guards the right of this 500 yard converted par 4 hole:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/torre6a.jpg)
Here is the shot into the green:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/torrey6b-1.jpg)
The par 4 7th hole doglegs around d the canyon and plays 462 yards:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0015_IMG.jpg)
Here is the shot into the green, one of the few holes to be bunkered on one side of the green only:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0016_IMG.jpg)
Here is a new chipping area that was just recently added:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0018_IMG.jpg)
Here’s a big problem, 7 years after a 3,5 million dollar renovation bunkers are routinely flooded. Who’s to blame for this, the architect, maintenance staff or irrigation installers? I bet the 3 guys from Long Beach who paid $180 to play here didn’t appreceiate it. Several other bunkers were saturated as well; just unacceptable.
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0017_IMG.jpg)
The shortest hole on the course is the par 3 8th at 176 yards. The green is very shallow with a deep bunker in front and another bunker directly behind the green:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0019_IMG.jpg)
Here’s look from behind the green, showing the uphill nature of the shot:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0021_IMG.jpg)
A massive elevated back tee was built in the redesign to stretch the 9th to 614 yards:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0022_IMG.jpg)
Here’s the shot into the green:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0023_IMG.jpg)
The 10th represents the last breather hole; at 416 yards it will be 3 wood, wedge for most:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0024_IMG.jpg)
The green has a pronounced left to right slope towards the sea:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0025_IMG.jpg)
The par 3 11th will play 221 yards; even the slightest bearing error will cause a missed green and a tough up and down:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0027_IMG.jpg)
Before the redesign the 12th played 460 yards into the prevailing wind, the toughest par 4 I had ever played. It now plays 504 yards; I bet Tiger will hit less than 6 iron here:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0028_IMG.jpg)
The second shot; the glider port is just to the left of this green, you’ll usually see parasailers in the background:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0029_IMG.jpg)
Here is the tee shot on the par 5 13th from the normal 540 yard tee; a simple driver, 5 iron for Tiger:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0030_IMG.jpg)
Here is the view from the new tee which is back and to the left of the original. It requires a 240 yard carry to clear the canyon. When we played from here last summer you couldn’t bail out right because of the tree you can see in the right of the frame. We weren’t able to go there in May, so I can’t say if they have done something to allow a bailout right:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/torrey13.jpg)
The view into the green. There is a large gully and a small terrace (covered in mesh) which is the ideal lay up area, giving the player 100 yards to the green. Although the "Stairway to Heaven" bunkering scheme is visually jarring, it does produce one of golf's toughest shots: the blind 40 yard uphill bunker shot:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0031_IMG.jpg)
Rees is very proud of this hole and rightly so. Moving the green 30 yards left to the canyon edge makes it truly special. The gull winged double plateau green actually works well on this hole, both visually and strategically. The normal yardage is 437; yes that tee with red marker is where they will play it on Sunday, a mere 277 yards:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0032_IMG.jpg)
From this shot you can see that it will be possible to run one onto the putting surface; hopefully the approach will be conditioned properly to accept that shot. I hit a low drawing hybrid that died as it tried to run on; the course was overly wet that day:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0033_IMG.jpg)
The 15th calls for a 100 yard walk backwards to reach the 478yard tee. It has the narrowest landing area on the course. This hole was the scene of one of the most amazing golf shot ever hit when Tiger hit a 4 iron from the right rough under a tree and stiff to the pin from over 200 yards out; David Feherty needed Kleenex after witnessing that shot:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0034_IMG.jpg)
The green has a pronounced right to left slope, with a chipping area short left. The back right hole location looks as though the flag can’t actually be on the green:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0036_IMG.jpg)
Here is a new tee that has never been used on #16. From here the two left front bunkers will be brought more in play; it will play about 190 yards from here:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0035_IMG.jpg)
The normal tee makes the hole 227 yards. Two large Torrey Pines were removed from the back of the green to give it a nice skyline effect and keep from blocking out the prevailing wind:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0037_IMG.jpg)
Everyone will remember the 17th for the famous incident in the Phil Mickelson and Frank Lichlighter playoff. The canyons are normally staked as lateral water hazards for public play. All red stakes have been removed for the Open and the canyons will be a stroke and distance penalty. The hole plays 442 yards:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0039_IMG.jpg)
The green is the most elevated on the course:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0040_IMG.jpg)
The 18th will play as a par 5; the back tee makes it play 570 yards:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0041_IMG.jpg)
Here is the shot into the green; lay ups just short of Devlin’s billabong will yield a 70 yard L wedge shot. I guess they didn’t get the memo to turn off the damned fountain:
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0042_IMG.jpg)
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Thanks for doing this, Pete. I had forgotten how many Torrey Pines trees had been moved. I do think Rees did a good job on the 14th and I like that Davis wants to make it drivable one of the days. The tee on the right for both 3 and 16 I think work quite well. Even though we've talked about this before, the thought of the new yardage on 12 is just so silly to me. That was one of the holes that needed it the least, IMHO. I like the "berm" feature as well on the right of the green on 4. Should create some interesting outcomes.
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As I sit here looking through those pictures and remembering my experience playing Torrey, I can't help but think that it'd be a much more highly regarded course with the subtraction of a couple holes. I don't know what you'd replace them with, but if one could possibly remove #1, #5, #9, maybe #15, and #18, I think it'd be a solid course.
#2 has some interest for being a short par 4 with a decent green.
#3 is just a good setting for a par 3, though I agree with Pete that the green could be improved.
#4 is a solid par 4, particularly with everything moved closer to the canyon.
#6 is a reasonable par 5
#7 might be one of the top 3 holes on the course
#8 is a good par 3 placing a premium on club selection
#10 I really like the green
Same with #11
#12 every course needs at least 2 brutal par 4's and this is the 2nd
#13 good slope and elevation changes on a par 5
#14 challenging par 4 with probably the best green on the course
#16 par 3 improved with removal of the trees
and #17, I haven't really come up with anything yet, but I don't mind it.
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Peter - thank you for going to the trouble of posting this. I had the pleasure of playing Torrey once when I was 16 and enjoyed it. Alas I was too wet behind the ears to noticeany architectural nuances (or lack there of) and was simply impressed by the Gliders & pretty views!
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Peter - thanks for the wonderful views; they will certainly add to my US Open experience.
It's been 10+ years since I played there, and I hardly recognize the place.
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Pete,
Really good writeup, thanks for doing that. I think the course does have some good stretches, most notably 12-17 and it'll be interesting to see what these guys can do with those greens when they are baked out.
Is the June gloom already setting in? Is this a normal occurance in SD or is there just a slight chance they will get this this year?
Kalen
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Nice job Pete. I'll reread your post at the start of the toon-a-mint as a good handicapper's guide.
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8) Pete,
What home brew will you be serving in mid June?
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Pete,
Is the June gloom already setting in? Is this a normal occurance in SD or is there just a slight chance they will get this this year?
Kalen
Hey, they don't call it June gloom because it shows up in July. During the past week we have had equal amounts of gloomy and sunny mornings. Open week last year was actually quite sunny, even during the morning.
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I'm a fan of Torrey Pines. When my son went to UCSD, I'd drop him off in his dorm really quickly to jet over to get in the early morning line at Torrey. I preferred the North Course, but played both courses about equal number of times. While I'm not a fan of rankings, I'd say they are two of the finest muni courses (at least south of Pacific Grove.)
That said, I was surprised by this:
Pete Lavellee writes:
Recent revisions by The Open Doctor himself, Rees Jones, have only elevated the course to the 12th best in the whole state of California per, the latest Golfweek ratings.
Even as a fan of Torrey South, I'd have trouble keeping the list of California courses I like better than Torrey South down to a dozen. Ends up Golfweek's ranking of which Pete speaks it just public access courses. It doesn't include courses such as Cypress, SF, Olympic, Riviera, LACC, Stanford, etc...
I haven't played there since Rees's changes. Maybe someday my grandson will go to UCSD.
Cheers,
Dan King
A tolerable day, a tolerable green, a tolerable opponent, supply, or ought to supply, all that any reasonably constituted human being should require in the way of entertainment.
--A.J. Balfour, 1890
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I like how 1 & 12 look from the tee - with the green nestled over the bunkers.
Is 2 a new green complex? - it looks unlike 1 - and appears forced and elevated.
The bunkers on 13 look like bethpages 18th.
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Mike,
The original 2cnd had the most severe front ot back slope on the course; the remake kept this carracter.
Dan,
You are quiet right and I will edit the post to reflect the fact that Torrey South's rating is that low.
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(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0031_IMG.jpg)
This is an over indulgence.
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(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0031_IMG.jpg)
This is an over indulgence.
Adam,
I see you join your brothers by evaluating this course with glass of wine in your hand instead of a wedge. The hole plays perfectly as one of the few non water hazard difficult lay up par 5's in championship golf. It is simply a great hole to play and to watch played - maybe it just won't hang well on your wall. What a tragedy.
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JB, From the photo tour it is obvious the scheme is out of character with the remainder. It is a link to Bethpage's closer and has to be RJ's attempt to say to the world "look it's me". I've reached my observation from multiple images (not just Pete's) as this is not the first time I've made the connection.
I see you can't help but being critical of others opinions, even before happy hour.
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JB, From the photo tour it is obvious the scheme is out of character with the remainder. It is a link to Bethpage's closer and has to be RJ's attempt to say to the world "look it's me". I've reached my observation from multiple images (not just Pete's) as this is not the first time I've made the connection.
I see you can't help but being critical of others opinions, even before happy hour.
Adam,
When you play the course the bunkers are not obviously out of scheme with the character of the remainder. Rees placed the bunkers to gather balls not garner attention. I will still never get over the fact that when I was in San Diego with a number of Golfweek raters the only one who took the time to play the course is the one who got kicked off the panel. I wish Golfweek would have been left out of this excellent discussion given their obvious lack of credibility on the issue of Torrey Pines and the redesign work by Rees.
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I just want to hear from anyone who has played the redesign why this course is not worthy or up to hosting a US Open. Please tell me one shot type that will not be tested that would have been on a "more worthy" venue or design. Tell me where Torrey is going to fail either the players or spectators?
I'll even throw out a softball....What does Shinnecock have during a US Open that Torrey does not?
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Thanks Pete. I am surprised there aren't more trees - it sort of reminds me of Merion the way the rough takes up more area in the pix than does the fairway. There is something not right this scale. I can't really explain it, but it looks wierd.
The course looks alright. I don't see much to get excited or uptight about. It seems rather bland, like the interior of a VW.
Ciao
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I had a round on the South course this last fall, and thought it was just a difficult course. I've heard many on this forum talk about how tame the greens are, and in the sense of having large internal contours that is true, but I just couldn't make a putt on those things. I found them to be very difficult to read, and my playing partner (who is a member at a prominent Fazio club) felt much the same way.
My favorite hole was the seventh because of the approach, and the way that green sits on an angle to the fairway with that large bunker in the front-right. The pin was well over to the right, demanding that I not go for it, advice that I ignored to my peril, and shame.
I don't know that I share Adam's opinion that the bunkering on the 13th looks out of character for the course per se, but the symmetry of it is a bit jarring to my eye. But from a golfing perspective, it really puts the pressure on your third (okay, in my case fourth, I was having a bad day). Especially if your previous shot didn't quite make it to the bottom of that swale, and you're hitting up from a downhill lie over those stacked bunkers. Very intimidating.
I saw a recent quote from Mickelson regarding the course, and he said something to the effect that it isn't fun, it's just hard, which seems to pretty much describe the US Open effect (as well as my experience on the course), so maybe this will be a good venue for this championship..............
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It looks like Rees has done a commendable job of fine-tuning Torrey for the Open. It sure looks better and more difficult than when I played if five years ago. Will it be a great site for the Open? Sure, if there is sufficient drama in the event itself. I am not naive enough to think that a golf course has to be a classic design in order to be a worthy host for our national championship. Even a boring golf course can be a great stage for drama, provided the right players and the right circumstances present themselves.
I don't think it's too early to begin the always-fun-speculation phase, so I will predict that seven under will win.
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I'll even throw out a softball....What does Shinnecock have during a US Open that Torrey does not?
Challenging driving angles.
Thanks for the softball. I must say from Pete's photographs that I'd really like to play this golf course and suspect that TV has done it a disservice over the years.
Mike
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It may be hard to see but the grandstands seem very close to the back of the bunkers on the left and wrap around to the back of the green. I wonder where the drop zone will be for the golfer who flies one into the grandstand ...
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll254/peterlavallee/100-0042_IMG.jpg)
(http://cdn-245.homes.com/c1/cgi-bin/readimage/285079245)
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I'll even throw out a softball....What does Shinnecock have during a US Open that Torrey does not?
Challenging driving angles.
Thanks for the softball. I must say from Pete's photographs that I'd really like to play this golf course and suspect that TV has done it a disservice over the years.
Mike
Mike,
What hole at Shinnecock during the last US Open did the players try for anything more than just in the fairway. Given the penalty for missing a fairway and the combination of lack of width and length of hole, I would like to hear an example. If you think that players are that accurate what makes you believe than there are no pin placements at Torrey where one did of a fairway is better than another?
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It happened at SHGC on either 14 or 16. Both Lefty and VeJay played for a certain area of rough because of the angle and it was less dense and manageable rough.
I specifically recall the point being made in a post round interview with Lefty , just not the number of the hole.
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Barney,
Other than the 6th hole, I can't even think or see via aerial another hole that requires anything else other than a straight ball pretty much as far as you dare to hit it. Sure a few of the fairways move gently from left to right, but no doglegs.
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It happened at SHGC on either 14 or 16. Both Lefty and VeJay played for a certain area of rough because of the angle and it was less dense and manageable rough.
I specifically recall the point being made in a post round interview with Lefty , just not the number of the hole.
Exactly, aiming for the rough on what may be the finest course in the world. I don't know how to spin that one.
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What hole at Shinnecock during the last US Open did the players try for anything more than just in the fairway. Given the penalty for missing a fairway and the combination of lack of width and length of hole, I would like to hear an example.
John, I was thinking more of the fairways being more difficult to hit because they are angled from the tee. To wit, nos. 1 (seemed like an equal no. of players missed long left and short right), 9, 12, 15 and 18. No busting it down the middle on those holes because there's no discernable middle.
Mike
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Actually it was not aiming for the rough, as it was an inevitable and acceptable outcome, when pulling out the driver due to the thinner rough, when trying to hit the fairway in that location.
The only problem with that course for that open were the narrow fairway widths. The USGA's mindset and formulaic fwy widths are not what one should consider a good maintenance meld and the reslt is less than stimulating golf. Thank MM (and MN) for making that one of the most exciting U.S. Opens in memory.
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Jim Furyk says:
"The greens are very severe, as severe as we've seen for a long time at a U.S. Open. ... A lot of the fairways are pitched ... You have to carve the ball to keep the ball in the fairway."
Are we talking about the same course?
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John, it is not a bad course, and it is a perfect US Open Course. Brutally long, potentially punishing hack-it-out-rough (although when I saw it a couple of years ago they were having trouble growing the rough) and greens with little character that can be made fast, fast, fast. And amazing ocean view with colorful gliders hovering above. What else could the USGA ask for? In fact I wish they'd make it the permanent site for the Open, so then maybe they would all the great courses alone.
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asking the great couses to be left alone is like asking your wife not to take a better lover. why should she be denied because you can't bring it home....it is not her faullt. Your selfishness and insecurities should not rob us, her and the world of the pleasure we all have earned.....
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Warning: Just because some kid orders a shot of Lucid do not follow down the same path.
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asking the great couses to be left alone is like asking your wife not to take a better lover. why should she be denied because you can't bring it home....it is not her faullt. Your selfishness and insecurities should not rob us, her and the world of the pleasure we all have earned.....
Well if you want to put it that way . . . It is more like asking one's wife not to take steriods, bulk up, grow hair on her chest, and have a sex change operation, all so she can be tough enough for one wild weekend in June. If not wanting all that makes me insecure then so be it.
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and greens with little character that can be made fast, fast, fast.
Could 18 greens, each seperated into 3 distinct sections be considered character free? If they were flat maybe. I will agree that 18 double plateaux are repetative, but would think they are both difficult and do have some character, albeit completely manufactuered.
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and greens with little character that can be made fast, fast, fast.
Could 18 greens, each seperated into 3 distinct sections be considered character free? If they were flat maybe. I will agree that 18 double plateaux are repetative, but would think they are both difficult and do have some character, albeit completely manufactuered.
Fair enough. How do you think the greens will work at US Open speeds?
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David,
That is very hard to say as they have never been that fast in their brief 7 year life. They are very hard to read because they are so manufactuered; there is not an overwhelming prevailing slope due to the natural terrain. Dividing any green into 3 discrete areas and demanding the player hit that area is a major task; will the "these guys are good crowd" be able to accomplish that task under the ulimate pressure is the real question. I'm afraid only time will tell.
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Jim Furyk, one of the game's great putters, says, "The greens are very severe, as severe as we've seen for a long time at a U.S. Open..."
I guess he means as severe as at Oakmont, Pinehurst and WFW. Does that surprise any of you?
And if Furyk is right, aren't the guys in for a real long, difficult road next week?
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Jim,
The severity comes in going from one section to another; they are seperated by very steep banks. Because every green is divided into 3 sections, we call it death by trisection.
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That is very hard to say as they have never been that fast in their brief 7 year life. They are very hard to read because they are so manufactuered;
Pete, that is a bit disturbing. If the greens have never been put to the test, at that time of year, I'd say they are vulnerable, or at best, guessing how they will react to the June Gloom.
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Adam,
The rebuilt greens were sodded with A-4 bent; due to 9-11 restrictions they could not import the turf they wanted from Az. They bought some locally, but it had a tremendous amount of thatch. Because the thatch acted like a sponge the roots had no need to go down for water and the turf never took hold. The USGA Agronomist recommended an aggresive program of punching and sanding the greens; at least once a month for a period of one year. Management at the time, Jim Allen, refused; who knows why, he has since passed away so we will never know the real reason. When Mark Woodward took over 2 years ago his first action was to punch and sand the greens, one week before the Junior World tournament. They were punched and sanded each month after that. The constant punching is what allowed the poa to take hold. The greens have made steady progress since that point but it is safe to say that they never have been as good as they are now. So we are in virgin territory. I played two weeks ago today and they were as smooth and fast as they have ever been. With two weeks of rest they should be really fast. The real question is can they sucessfully regulate the irrigation system? Recent articles indicate the "system is tricky" and they are only getting a handle on it because the USGA is helping out. We'll see what happens in less that a week.
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Adam,
The rebuilt greens were sodded with A-4 bent; due to 9-11 restrictions they could not import the turf they wanted from Az. They bought some locally, but it had a tremendous amount of thatch. Because the thatch acted like a sponge the roots had no need to go down for water and the turf never took hold. The USGA Agronomist recommended an aggresive program of punching and sanding the greens; at least once a month for a period of one year. Management at the time, Jim Allen, refused; who knows why, he has since passed away so we will never know the real reason. When Mark Woodward took over 2 years ago his first action was to punch and sand the greens, one week before the Junior World tournament. They were punched and sanded each month after that. The constant punching is what allowed the poa to take hold. The greens have made steady progress since that point but it is safe to say that they never have been as good as they are now. So we are in virgin territory. I played two weeks ago today and they were as smooth and fast as they have ever been. With two weeks of rest they should be really fast. The real question is can they sucessfully regulate the irrigation system? Recent articles indicate the "system is tricky" and they are only getting a handle on it because the USGA is helping out. We'll see what happens in less that a week.
Pete,
Excellent post. You must do a lot of hanging out at the clubhouse and asking questions to get that kind of info. Whats your secret to get em to talk? ;)
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kalen,
Some say I keep my ear to the ground; others say I've fallen and can't get up!
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Adam,
The rebuilt greens were sodded with A-4 bent; due to 9-11 restrictions they could not import the turf they wanted from Az. They bought some locally, but it had a tremendous amount of thatch. Because the thatch acted like a sponge the roots had no need to go down for water and the turf never took hold. The USGA Agronomist recommended an aggresive program of punching and sanding the greens; at least once a month for a period of one year. Management at the time, Jim Allen, refused; who knows why, he has since passed away so we will never know the real reason. When Mark Woodward took over 2 years ago his first action was to punch and sand the greens, one week before the Junior World tournament. They were punched and sanded each month after that. The constant punching is what allowed the poa to take hold. The greens have made steady progress since that point but it is safe to say that they never have been as good as they are now. So we are in virgin territory. I played two weeks ago today and they were as smooth and fast as they have ever been. With two weeks of rest they should be really fast. The real question is can they sucessfully regulate the irrigation system? Recent articles indicate the "system is tricky" and they are only getting a handle on it because the USGA is helping out. We'll see what happens in less that a week.
Great info, Pete. Thank you for sharing it.