Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tim Bert on May 28, 2008, 01:17:55 AM
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I know the course has been discussed to death, but I don't recall seeing a detailed photo essay of the course. Ran's profile of the course is quite detailed. He does include several photos, more so than on some of his other profiles, but I'm talking about several pictures per hole.
I love the course, and I've got 200 photos from three different trips burning a hole in my pocket. Going through them to decide what to post here is a nice way to re-live the course for me. I thought some that have never been and experienced the course live might enjoy this exercise as well. This is intended to be much more of a photo tour than a review of the course. Please consider when you read my limited comments that all of my trips have taken place in the summer months and I've always been faced with the prevailing summer wind from the north.
I'll be posting one hole at a time. Feel free to pile on with your own favorite photos of the current hole if you'd like.
Without further ado... the best public golf course I've ever played.
Hole #1
The 1st is a quirky and potentially uncomfortable start for the first-time visitor (I speak from experience.) I just didn't have a good feel for where I wanted to hit the ball and how much club I wanted to hit when standing on the tee. One thing is for sure, you don't want to be in the massive dune to the right. I was embarassed to find myself there my first time around after trying to start the round with a "safe" 6-iron. I felt a bit of redemption on my 2nd trip when one of my playing partners put the ball in the same spot and had equal difficulty in extracting the ball from the sand mounds back to the field of play. It's not a pretty place to play, but it really shouldn't come into play in the first place.
After repeated plays, I really enjoy the hole and I'm much less intimidated standing on the first tee. In general, the hole is a bit underwhelming compared to some of the other par 4s on the front nine, but consider the company! The green can be tricky to read and feels much smaller than most of the greens to follow. Its setting carved into the surrounding dune is a nice start to the round.
All-in-all, a good start to a great experience!
From the back tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-1Tee.jpg)
The view from the slightly less intimidating middle tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-1Tee-1.jpg)
Dont miss the tee shot to the right
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PDJSM1Dune.jpg)
The approach from the middle of the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-1Approach.jpg)
First look at the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-1Green.jpg)
The green from behind
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-1Green2.jpg)
New addition - I found this one that shows the nice contours of the 1st fairway on the approach
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PDALG1Approach.jpg)
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Tim,
Thanks for posting - brings back some good memories. That green complex is quite extraordinary. I last played there over a year ago and the memories were starting to get a bit fuzzy. This brings it all back. I'd swear that greenside bunker appears to be eroding before my very eyes. So natural, so ruggedly beautiful. Looking forward the next in your series. Great idea to break them out like this.
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Great idea Tim, thanks for sharing!
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Tim,
Thanks in advance for the upcoming posts. As someone who has not had the privilege of a trip to Bandon, I look forward to seeing a hole by hole.
Scott
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Tim:
I'll add my thanks as well. A guy I met at Lawsonia last fall was spending his retirement going through the (GD?) list of the top 100 publics, and said -- by far -- PacDunes was the best he'd played so far, and he was about halfway through it.
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Great idea! This will be a lot of fun.
So, regarding hole 1... some dislike this hole... not me. I love it. It's a quirky beginnng to a pretty quirky golf course - and I use that as a term of affection and admiration. I find it in this way to be the perfect introduction - it smacks you right away that we're not in Kansas any more, Toto.
Love the humps and bumps and the difficult pitches they inevitably leave...
TH
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Can one play the back tee up on the dune anytime they want now?
IIRC, it requred a shot over the 'clubhouse'.
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Forthose of us who don't know Bandon, can you tell us what the length of the hole is?
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One hole at a time? Do you drink your beer by the teaspoon? Start pouring, Tim!
Having said that, Pac Dunes is my favorite public course as well.
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Tim,
My affection for PD runs deeps. I look forward to your tour. I have been around PD 8 or 9 times and it grows in my view with each play. I was fortunate last time to play with 2 time Cal Am Champion and it impressive to me how well the course hold its challenge for the 8 handicapper as well as the scratch player. I have played in sunshine, fog, drizzle, rain, sideways rain, sleet and a gale and all that was in the same round.
I get much the same feelings at PD as I do playing Cypress Point...joy, mystery, thrill, fun and let's do it again.
Thanks for posting this.
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Forthose of us who don't know Bandon, can you tell us what the length of the hole is?
370 from the black tee
304 from green (most common)
287 from gold
My affection for PD runs very deep also; and it's also grown each time I've played it. Man I'd love to get up there again. Keep the tour moving, Tim!
;)
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I felt the same discomfort last week when I was there. Maybe it was the 3 hours of sleep I was running on but besides that I guess i was too tired to think and hit a bunt driver down the middle and got lucky. The second time I played there I knew to stay left but I found myself in the 7th fairway. I think its a great opening hole.
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Tim - great post. Really takes me back! Can not wait for the rest of your post.
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Dan,
The way back hidden tee isn't a shot over the clubhouse but you do hit it over the 18th green. IIRC it plays at 400+ from this tee.
Tim,
Good pics, and they still don't do that hole justice. The undulations and humps and bumps in that first fairwary are very cool. And if your anywhere in the right half of it, its a totally blind shot into the green.
Very good opening hole!!
Edit.
Just checked the distances on google earth.
401 - Hidden tee
371 - Back tee
302 - Middle tee
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Kalen - that would jive with the distances I posted, which are from the on-line scorecard.
I've never played from the hidden tee though I have gone up and seen that tee, admiring the view... I have hit from the 370 tee a few times, and it works from there. From the hidden tee is a VERY long carry to reach the fairway, isn't it? Google-earth that if you would be so kind.
TH
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Kalen - that would jive with the distances I posted, which are from the on-line scorecard.
I've never played from the hidden tee though I have gone up and seen that tee, admiring the view... I have hit from the 370 tee a few times, and it works from there. From the hidden tee is a VERY long carry to reach the fairway, isn't it? Google-earth that if you would be so kind.
TH
Tom,
I've never scrambled up there to take a look, but I do recall looking up there when I was playing 18 and thinking my god what a opening tee shot that would be.
The carry to the "fairway" isn't all that bad because it starts at the bottom side of the dune as the picture shows. This carry is about 205 yards. But being down there is not where you want to be on this hole as you know. To carry to the part of the fairway where you want to be on top of the duneline, its a good 260-270 yards. So into the prevailing wind would indeed require a mighty blow to be in any kind of decent position for the approach in.
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Kalen - thanks.
This hole plays pretty much dead into the prevailing summer wind... so that 205 could even get problematic! I think it's a good thing that tee is hidden. That is one heck of a shot to expect on a first tee. But on the other hand, for today's big bombers, well... it might provoke some fear... which is a good thing.
TH
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Kalen - thanks.
This hole plays pretty much dead into the prevailing summer wind... so that 205 could even get problematic! I think it's a good thing that tee is hidden. That is one heck of a shot to expect on a first tee. But on the other hand, for today's big bombers, well... it might provoke some fear... which is a good thing.
TH
I would think so.
Even playing from the 304 yard tees into that wind, you know that even a slight fade to the right side is going to end up in that dune and then your looking at a big number to start the round.
Its a very intimidating opening tee shot for sure, but there really is a lot more room up there than it looks.
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Heck yeah - it's a tough shot from any tee. But one does soon learn that one can go VERY far left and still be alive. Avoiding the dunes on the right is paramount. I just feel bad for those whose prevailing shot is left to right. I'd add an emoticon here, but I don't want to be accused of using literary crutches.
TH
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Heck yeah - it's a tough shot from any tee. But one does soon learn that one can go VERY far left and still be alive. Avoiding the dunes on the right is paramount. I just feel bad for those whose prevailing shot is left to right. I'd add an emoticon here, but I don't want to be accused of using literary crutches.
TH
Tom,
Lol...your memory is good **sigh**. But I'm working on it. By next year this time I'll be crushing em long like the silver fox and working the ball right to left. ;)
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Tim, I leave in less than 7 days - HURRY UP AND POST THE REST!
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Sorry guys, but this is an evening pet project, so it will be done slowly. The goal is to allow for anyone interested to post additional pictures or commentary of the hole in question throughout the following day.
I'll be posting one hole per evening, and there may be a few days I have to take off in the middle of the process. The anticipation kills me more than you guys, and I'm the one with the photos.
I'm glad some of you are enjoying the concept. Carry on!
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Tim - just giving you a hard time - I think this will be a great way to do it - just like George Pazin did re Oakmont. Very, very cool.
I have zero pics but of course I can always offer comments.
TH
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Dan,
The way back hidden tee isn't a shot over the clubhouse but you do hit it over the 18th green. IIRC it plays at 400+ from this tee.
(http://cdn-704.homes.com/c1/cgi-bin/readimage/180086704)
Note: Posted without permission from the R Simper Collection, February 2007
My only regret on the first hole was my brainless strategy of hitting driver, dead cold with the first swing of each morning.
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I love the idea of the photo essay. The pictures of the 1st bring back fond memories of my first round at PD where I knocked it to a foot on the 1st, the perfect start to a 5-birdie round (thanks to #13 I still shot 78).
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Mike - you never actually played from that tee, did you?
Driver is the right play from there, as cold as one might be.
But driver is way too much club for you from either of the other tees.
Your caddie here was obviously way too into his own world to stop you from your madness.
TH
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As someone who hasn't played the hole, the thing that sticks out to me (other than that difficult view from the back tee!) is the knob in front of the right side of the green. From a playing standpoint, it's in a very interesting place. How does it affect the ground game? Does it complete the "if you're right, the next shot's blind" package?
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Mike,
Great shot of what it looks like from that tee....a tough shot indeed, especially without a few warm-up balls.
Kirk,
That knob does indeed make the approach in blind if coming from the right side of the fairway as I speak from experience on that one!!
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I took a caddy the last time I was there. He saved me at least 2 strokes on this hole. I too was blocked by the knob, but he knew the exact line to play to get the ball in there. Started with a 3, thanks to Mankato Andy.
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Your caddie here was obviously way too into his own world to stop you from your madness.
TH
First hole, first day, the caddie had no idea how Mike hit it. And if the wind is up then even from the up tee driver is the play.
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Your caddie here was obviously way too into his own world to stop you from your madness.
TH
First hole, first day, the caddie had no idea how Mike hit it. And if the wind is up then even from the up tee driver is the play.
Joe:
That was an inside joke between me and Mike, who discuss these types of things way too often, with me taking the role as his caddie. I meant that I was way too into my own world to help him from himself.
We did not take caddies when we played there.
TH
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I must say I too enjoyed the course. I hit driver one day and 1 iron the other times. Driver was short in the dunes in front. 1iron was 100 or so yards out i think this was the play. As many have said the play is to aim left. There is much more room up there then it looks like. It was a fairly intimidating first tee shot of the day i can only imagine starting on the tee by the club house now that was intimidating...
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A 1-iron? A 1-IRON?
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First hole, first day, the caddie had no idea how Mike hit it. And if the wind is up then even from the up tee driver is the play.
I can't remember if it was cold and wet, cold and windy, or wet and windy but Mike also had no idea how he was going to hit it ...
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A 1-iron? A 1-IRON?
And now you know why Mr. Noser is a 3 handicap and not a +3
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One more photo of #1 to try to give folks a sense for how the approach from the right can be blind. This isn't a shot from the fairway but from up on the dune. From this angle I think you can see how far down the green sits. The other photo to consider is the one I already posted that looks back to the fairway from behind the green. The dune on the left side of the green from the perspective of the photo is blocking the view of a good portion of the fairway.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-1Green-1.jpg)
#2 Photos coming up!
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#2 is a par four.
368 yards from the black tees.
335 from the green tees, according to the card.
I say "according to the card" because I marvel at how short the hole is based on the scorecard every time I play it. When you play it in the summer wind and then reflect on the round weeks or months later, the hole feels like is plays much closer to 400 yards. Shoe bunker grabs your attention right as you step to the tee. It's small, it's deep, it's right where you want to hit the ball in the middle of the fairway, and it is penal. Based on the yardage on the card, it doesn't seem like carrying it should be an issue from the green tee. As a moderate hitter (with no wind, I'm generally a 230-250 guy with best drives going 260 or 270) I can tell you that the carry isn't a foregone conclusion. Into the wind, I've carried the bunker, I've landed in the bunker, and I've come up short of the bunker. Carrying the bunker and placing your ball on the left side of the fairway is ideal in my opinion. There's plenty of room out to the right, but you get a less visible, more challenging approach shot. Coming up short and left makes the approach long and potentially blind as well.
This hole has one of the best greens on the course in my opinion.
This is the first of many GREAT par 4s on the front nine.
View from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-2Tee-1.jpg)
A bit wider view from the tee. I like the look of the giant dune on the right, though it really isn't in play.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-2Tee.jpg)
A look at the right side of the fairway - the safe landing area
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-2Fairway.jpg)
Come up short of the bunker on the left side and you are left with this dreadful approach
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD2Approachwide.jpg)
Challenge the bunker and this can be your reward on the left side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD2Approachwide2.jpg)
or this
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-2Approach.jpg)
One look at the wild green (with #6 green in the distance)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-2Green.jpg)
A look back on the hole. This is one of my favorite photos. The shadows really compliment the green contours. This is a prime reason this course must be experienced at least once early in the morning (for the front nine) and once in the late evening (for the back nine)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD2Lookback.jpg)
Discuss!
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Tim,
Once again really good photos. They really reminded me just how good this hole is, I had partially forgotten. The right safe side really is blind and a very tough approach in with the bunker on the ridge to be carried and the angle of the green.
Hitting a big one left and getting to the bottom of the big ridge that runs diagonally thru the fairway is a huge reward with a short and clear approach into the green.
Nothing short of a fantastic hole!!
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Another great post Tim. I had the pleasure of hitting my drive into the left bunker. That bunker may be the worst bunker i have ever been in and my only choice was a lob wedge out. The second day with less wind it was easier to carry and made the hole alot different. I thought this was one of the better holes on the course and its a shame its so early in the round because the next 16 almost make you forget about it.
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Kalen -
I agree with you. I sometimes forget how much I love this hole (it gets lost in some of the other greats) until I look back at the photos and reflect on my personal adventures at #2.
As an aside, if you want my photos from KP can you please IM me with your mailing address. I've got a two CD set waiting with your name on it. I tried to get in touch with you just after the trip, but I'm not sure my message reached you. If you got enough photos on your own and don't need additional ones, then just let me know.
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One more shot of #2 green from behind
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD2Lookback2-BW.jpg)
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Kalen -
I agree with you. I sometimes forget how much I love this hole (it gets lost in some of the other greats) until I look back at the photos and reflect on my personal adventures at #2.
As an aside, if you want my photos from KP can you please IM me with your mailing address. I've got a two CD set waiting with your name on it. I tried to get in touch with you just after the trip, but I'm not sure my message reached you. If you got enough photos on your own and don't need additional ones, then just let me know.
Tim & Kalen,
First, Tim, thanks again for posting this PD journey in the way you have chosen. I'll be looking forward to the rest of your hole-by-hole posts.
Second, I agree with both of you - this is a terrific hole that does get lost in the shuffle sometimes. One of the things I like about it is the extreme difference between the view from the tee, which is intimidating and "busy" (in a good way) and the serenity of the green complex itself. Especially from the left side, the reward for challenging those fairway bunkers makes the view even more inviting.
Perhaps another way of saying it is that the tee shot is full of angst and exhilaration. But once you have successfully negotiated those hazards, the view is so peaceful and inviting that it can lull you into letting your guard down. A wonderful psychological hole, from my perspective.
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I think the pin was position 3 both times i played it and position 3 happens to be behind the bunker. If you are right of the FW bunker it makes the approach shot very scary with a 20-30 mph wind in your face.
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I think the pin was position 3 both times i played it and position 3 happens to be behind the bunker. If you are right of the FW bunker it makes the approach shot very scary with a 20-30 mph wind in your face.
Matt,
Yes, not to minimize the difficulty of the approach and particularly when the hole is located where you describe it.
We played in conditions where the wind was gusting at gale force and no shots were easy into that wind. Once it reaches that level, I hesitate to even call it "wind." It was more like a high-velocity wall. But the design itself is wonderful in that by comparison to the difficulty of the tee shot, the approach shot from the left side can appear to be easy when it is not. That is a large part of its beauty, to me.
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What a great hole. Anyone who doesn't like centerline bunkers has never played this hole. Unfortunately when I played my drive ended up next to left bunker and my second ended up just short of the right greenside bunker. I was extremely fortunate to bogey from there. A couple of others in my group were not so fortunate after great drives and second shots over the green.
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I am still not sure how to post pictures. I tried the search function and couldn't find any help. Does anyone know a link to a thread explaining this? I think my picture files might be too large.
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Just a head's up - I posted one more photo of #1 back on the original set of that hole on page one. I found one that really brings home some of the contours in the first fairway. I didn't want to interject the photo in the discussion of #2.
Someone just made a good suggestion to consider separate threads for each hole. I though about that option in advance, but I'm going to see how the mega-thread works for a few reasons. 1) It will give us a nice, definitive thread for photos of the entire course for reference purposes. 2) We won't need to worry about keeping track of 18 threads that may get lost in the shuffle. 3) I don't want to hog up unnecessary space on the message board for the sake of those not interested in this photo journey.
Please bear with me as this one grows out of hand. For me, it will be something nice to look back on and an easy reference to which I can point friends that are looking for information on the course.
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I think thats a great idea tim. I think Pacific is worthy of a jumbo thread
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I love the concept of "hidden" tee boxes. To me it adds so much to the sense of journey and mystery in a round of golf. A bunch of the tee boxes at Caledonia, for example, are tucked away in shady corners, which adds a lot to the ambiance and greatness of the place, IMO.
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As a participant on Tim's (a.k.a. Snacks & Pants) three trips to Bandon, I have to vouch for his continued growth and ability in course photography. As a playing partner, one hardly notices he is taking so many pictures.
As one who has often taken the right (meaning incorrect) road on #2, I can tell you it is not where you want to be. If you keep it short of the gorse, you can effectively navigate the hole in such a way as to avoid the big number, but par is no longer in play.
One time I hit a TITANIC slice left (I'm left-handed) and had to play three from the tee. In our "free" round that evening, Tim actually found it (while playing #7 I believe) and used it as payment (I will relate the story later as he takes us on this Odyssey). But trying to go left is also fraught with danger as I've been in that left bunker as well. To me, this is just an extremely challenging tee shot.
What I always forget is the size and contours of this green and the relative openness left and behind the green. I definitely feel that this is one where I will err on the long side in future plays.
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I would also like to thank you for a great post. I can't wait to see more.
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Love this topic.
I've played the course a few times and hit driver on #2 every round.
I'm not the longest hitter, but that "shoe bunker" never even crossed my mind.
I love the green but I think this is a perfect example of a hole that would be greatly improved if the tee were moved back about 30 yards . . . I'm not a "I need 7,000 yards or else the course is crap" kind of guy, but this hole needs a few extra yards in my opinion to really put that bunker in play.
Great course. One of my all time favorties.
Thanks for the effort on this topic.
Looking forward to seeing more.
-Ted
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GREAT photos and commentary re #2 also!
But a suggestion - do separate threads for each hole. That's what George did re Oakmont and it worked very, very well. Pacific Dunes is certainly worthy of the same treatment. If you don't, lazy asses like me won't know when a new hole is added... and also the discussion will shift back and forth and get quite confusing for those of us with simple minds.
In any case I believe 2 is a great hole also. The "shoe bunker" does come into play in the summer wind, for sure.. but more importantly the death bunker to the left is the real one to avoid - that sucker is DEEP and can be a real stroke-play round ruiner. Then the green... how do I love thee, let me count the ways....
TH
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Post deleted due to exchange in reply #55 - #57. Please continue discussing hole #2.
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Whoops! Sorry, did not see the previous suggestion. And you make great points for keeping this to one thread. I will say no one regretted having the Oakmont series as different threads, and in terms of hogging space, jeez compare this to the Merion stuff! Methinks this has worth.
;)
It will be difficult to retrieve in the future though, true. But in reality how often does one go back and retrieve old threads? And especially one like this that will be largely dependent on pictures, well... it's future worth only stays if you keep those pictures FOREVER in the same place... that is, they will be future red x's if you ever move them from where you have them now....
So my vote still goes for separate threads. But I am inherently lazy.
TH
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One thread. It is easier to search for in the future if you want to review the course. It also won't muck up any other worthy topics with 18 threads on the same page. I don't know about you but my computer tells me if there has been a post added to a thread that I might have missed.
note: This survey will destroy any chance you had at having a successful and interesting discussion.
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Though I disagree with John about the effect of multiple threads, he is right that discussing it here will ruin the otherwise great discussion of a great golf course. So screw it, it's your idea, you make the call, Tim.
So... back to #2....
Has anyone else gotten in that left bunker? If so, how did you manage to get out? And is it maybe, just maybe, TOO severe - especially since the tempting play is to go left - better angle from there?
TH
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Tom - I'm not moving them unless PhotoBucket makes me!
I like John's point. He agrees with me about mucking up the first page of the message board. He also makes a wise point about turning this thread, which has had some good discussion so far, into a survey thread.
Request considered and denied. We'll stay with one thread.
No more survey responses please. There will be something everyone can love and hate about this thread before we're done!
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Tim:
I do know George did 18 separate threads on Oakmont, then did one thread afterewards that had links to every one of the 18 holes and their separate threads.
Either way is fine; I do like the idea of one thread for searching purposes in the future.
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One thread.
And I do believe this is the first time I have EVER agreed with anything John Kavanaugh has said...
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Tom,
Oddly enough, my first encounter with #2 was on my first round at the resort, and also my first experience with the fescue surface.
After a shaky par on #1, I pushed a drive into the left bunker on 2. Upon arrival, my ball was eventually found to be under the FRONT lip, wedged between the sand and a large tuft of fescue. My best option was to drop in the bunker, which is exactly where my third shot remained. Not to bore, but blast, hack, putt, putt =7.
Without a doubt the most physically unusual lie I have ever seen, but a hysterical welcome to Pacific nonetheless.
WH
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I'd like to know the history of the dead tree in the centerline bunker before I decide if I hate it or not. Leaning towards hate.
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Wyatt - I had a similar fate with multiple attempts required to get the ball out. I believe my futility was caused by greed though... I could have pitched out with a SW at any point. But hmmmm... it seems to me your fate - way worse than mine - and mine - SW required... well... that's a stern price to pay for a bunker one is tempted to flirt with to get the better line. Is the smart play just to bail right and leave the blind approach? And if so, doesn't that decrease the worth of this hole to some extent?
Note I am just ASKING - I really don't know. I still think this is a maddening and GREAT golf hole. I just wonder if it might be even greater if that left bunker wasn't so severe....
TH
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I never got a good look at that left bunker on #2. But if it really is a bitch that everyone makes it out to be, then I think it works perfectly. And here's why.
To make a good score on that hole, and we'll assume that to be a birdie, its almost a must to approach the green from the left hand side. Taking the safer line out to the right with a longer blind approach, ones chances are slim in making 3 from there.
And there-in to me lies the brilliance of the hole. Go for the 3, risk a big number if you get in that left bunker or even the shoe bunker. Play it safely out to the right and a bogey should be worst case scenario, however the birdie is very low probability. The hole works for both risk averse players, and risk takers.
As a kicker even though the fairway is pretty darn wide, this is a perfect example where being in the fairway can mean two completely different things in how well one can score.
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Tom,
Oddly enough, my first encounter with #2 was on my first round at the resort, and also my first experience with the fescue surface.
After a shaky par on #1, I pushed a drive into the left bunker on 2. Upon arrival, my ball was eventually found to be under the FRONT lip, wedged between the sand and a large tuft of fescue. My best option was to drop in the bunker, which is exactly where my third shot remained. Not to bore, but blast, hack, putt, putt =7.
Without a doubt the most physically unusual lie I have ever seen, but a hysterical welcome to Pacific nonetheless.
WH
I had a ball embedded in the sodwall face of a fw bunker on BD #18. The worst part was seeing it go in, and not bounce out.
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Wyatt and Tom,
The left bunker on #2 is like a second home for me. Out of the 8 or so times I've played Pacific, I must have been in there at least half the time. For a right-hander like me, it takes a pretty wicked hook to wind up there. I don't have any problem with the severity of the bunker. It's a one-stroke penalty--appropriate, I think, for a short par 4 and a very poor drive.
As for the tree near the center bunker, I never really noticed that before (probably because I've been buried in the left bunker). I tend to agree with John--it's superfluous and removing it wouldn't bother me a bit.
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Tim:
I guess you're right, that bunker works as is. I just do believe the next time I play PD - and God willing I do get a next time, some day - I just punt and go right and accept the blind approach. Man it didn't take that much of a hook for me to get in that bunker... the land kinda gathers into it. And it is severe for sure, so in the end the gain in angle is not worth the risk.
I just continue to wonder if that's a good thing.
BUT... if that was a boring flat bunker we'd never talk about it, or worse, say it's out of place! The bunker is what it is and at least looks like it's been there forever. So in the end, trust Tom Doak.
;D
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I think the hole is plenty wide enough for the repeat player to safely avoid it without a dreadful mistake off the tee. For the one-time visitor, you may not know what you are getting into until it is too late, but that's why you find a good caddie the first time around - right Joe?
By the way, the truth will be revealed later in this thread if Joe was actually my caddie in 2005. I've been doing some "research" over the years based on soundbites I've heard from Joe and I'm absolutely convinced he was my caddie before I knew he was part of this site. Later on in the tour, there will be a photo of my caddie Joe and we can once and for all settle whether the great caddie I had is indeed GCA's very own Joe.
Tom - I say the way to play it is aim just right of the center bunker with an intent to play a fade for a lefty or a draw for a righty. This takes the left bunker out of play unless you severely mishit it. It brings the right side of the fairway in play in the event of a mistake swing, but it also still gives you the hope of getting the turbo boost behind the fairway bunker and ending up in position 1A. If you don't have a left-handed fade or a right-handed draw in the bag, then play right and hope for a miracle par.
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Tom,
You may be right--it might not require that poor of a shot to end up in the left bunker; it certainly is a gathering bunker. For me, though, I usually try to aim over the center bunker and hope for a bit of a draw. When taking that line, it takes a pretty poor shot to wind up in the left bunker (and sure enough, I have that shot in the bag).
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Tim B. and Tim P. have given the proper play - well done, guys!
But what do you do in wind where clearing the center Shoe bunker is not a given? That's more what I am talking about - aim left or aim right?
TH
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Clearing it has never been a certainty for me. I aim slightly right of it, intend it to fade and carry, but live with a miss right and from there just see what happens. At the end of the day, it is a pretty small bunker. When the wind is up, I'm just as likely to land a little short and then the ball usually rolls a bit left of the bunker down the slope anyway. Of course, the only time I landed in it was one time that I aimed directly at it instead of slightly to the side. One of my most accurate drives ever!
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From the green tees, it doesn't seem like the carry over the Shoe bunker is usually much of an issue, even in high winds. From the back tees, it certainly is. In that case, I'd say you're better off aiming right because of the presence of the left bunker and because the fairway slopes from right to left. Of course, you're better off with some draw. I've faced these conditions and it becomes an intimidating drive--one of the reasons I like the hole. Sometimes, the carry is no issue at all; sometimes, it takes a heroic drive.
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How does the hole play in the prevailing winter wind? Isn't it a quartering wind coming out of the left that is mostly helping?
I would guess a wind like that would make getting in that left bunker pretty difficult unless one hit just an awful shot.
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If the wind is up and in your face and you're only expecting to hit it to the shoe bunker, would you rather be left or right of it? I think right b/c you'd be up on that little plateau and atleast be able to see the flag vs down in the gulley to the left and have a completely blind shot...
opinions?
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Tim P - just to clarify - the bunker that troubles me is not the Shoe bunker, but rather the very deep one to the left. And I do recall that clearing of the shoe bunker was definitely an issue for me... must have been playing the back tees and/or had wind in my face. Thus the question for all - same as George's - assuming clearance is an issue, would you rather be left or right? My assumption was left was better... but my memory isn't good... I thought right was completely blind, left would give you a view....
TH
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Tim P - just to clarify - the bunker that troubles me is not the Shoe bunker, but rather the very deep one to the left. And I do recall that clearing of the shoe bunker was definitely an issue for me... must have been playing the back tees and/or had wind in my face. Thus the question for all - same as George's - assuming clearance is an issue, would you rather be left or right? My assumption was left was better... but my memory isn't good... I thought right was completely blind, left would give you a view....
TH
Thats how I remember it too, left is better than right unless your in that nasty bunker over there.
Any thoughts on how the hole plays in the previaling winter wind? Just a smash driver followed by a pitch on the green?
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the best place to be if you aren't going to carry the bunkers is short left, in front of the bigger bunker. And most days in the 'season' carrying the bunkers isn't a given for the strongest players, let alone you and me.
In the Winter the wind is at your back and your line is between the two bunkers. Most times your left with a short pitch and a putt. Or even a putt and a putt...
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Joe - great stuff. In the scenario I pose, do you think the advantage gained in angle fromt he left is worth the risk going in that left bunker? Or is the assumption/play that one just stays short of it? I recall hitting a hard driver and being quite bummed when it reached the bunker... and I saw my fate. I think I had assumed given distance and wind that I couldn't reach that bunker so I hit right at it (ie left of Shoe). Perhaps 3wood is better play next time in this scenario? Or would driver right be better?
TH
ps - putt and a putt for sure! I recall putting from something like 60 yards short of the green... it seemed to me to be a very proper play....
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Tom,
I gotcha. Regardless of the tees I've played or the wind, my aiming point has always been the Shoe bunker or just left or right of it. If you can get past the Shoe bunker (even if not on the fly) you can use the slope in the fairway to have your ball roll toward the left side of the fairway. If you can't reach the Shoe bunker, I still think it's better to not mess with the left bunker at all and stay more toward the center of the fairway.
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Tim - very cool - in the conditions I am thinking of, yeah right at the Shoe bunker wouldn't be a bad play either. But if one stays just short of it one would be blind too, no? Of course given one rarely hits just where one aims, well... seems like this might be the best play!
Curious what Joe thinks about the gain from the left v. the risk of that death left bunker, though.
Man I love this hole.
TH
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Kalen,
We played two consecutive days with two opposing winds. 1st day the wind was a major factor into us, barely quartering from the right. Tee shot in gathering right hand bunker. 2nd day, the wind had the same strength, however, it was blowing down from behind and left. Result: my drive was ten paces off the front edge.
Tim P. and Tom H.,
I believe the prudent play into the prevailing NW wind would be short of the shoe bunker, and short of the menacing left bunker. This would leave a much longer approach but would allow for the opportunity save a shot otherwise lost extracting a ball from either.
I believe we have now identified three choices from the tee. As if this great par four needed more help!!
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Tom and Tim P.,
Seems I was late to the party, you guys already had it figured!
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Wyatt - well, Tim P. has it figured...I am still on the tee deciding what to try to do! God help the group behind me....
;)
In any case it would seem playing SHORT is the best play in these conditions. Short of Shoe, short of left bunker. Now the question is is either SIDE better?
And oh yes, choices choices choices... and this on a hole that even if one just slugged away would still be great... yowza!
TH
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Tom,
You could actually end up hitting less club from the tee than you would on approach. Using the contours left and long of the green could the best bet. Short from the tee, long on the approach.
Pull the trigger my dear sir.....we have putted out and are waiting patiently!!!!
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Tom,
You could actually end up hitting less club from the tee than you would on approach. Using the contours left and long of the green could the best bet. Short from the tee, long on the approach.
Pull the trigger my dear sir.....we have putted out and are waiting patiently!!!!
LOVE IT!
OK, OK, I'm hitting 3wood, aiming at left bunker. Short of that will mean no carry over hill, run up a long shot in. Hell I'm hoping to get out of this darn tough hole with a 5 anyway.
TH
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Well, I may have it figured, but execution has been a problem.
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but this hole is an excellent example of how wider fairways with centerline bunkers are more interesting than narrow fairways with trouble on the sides.
Speaking of centerline bunkers (and I know I'm jumping ahead here), how about PD #3? Terrific ones on that hole too.
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Tom,
After the long second, you may even feel the thrill of a running jump look ala Sergio.
Yippeeee!!
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Wyatt - damn right! Yet another aspect to add to the fun and greatness of this golf hole.
Tim - so very true re centerline bunkers... and wow you're right 2 and 3 are both great examples....
TH
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If you think driver can make it to the bunkers into the wind but not over them then I don't see why that would be the play. Three wood at the big left bunker, is a better play then driver right of shoe. Left is less blind and allows one to take the green side bunkers out of play and still get it close.
I disagree with Wyatt about left and long being of any use. Short left, is smart and short right is how you get it close most days. The up and down from behind this green is the little sister to the one facing players from the same area into 6 green, IMO.
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If you think driver can make it to the bunkers into the wind but not over them then I don't see why that would be the play. Three wood at the big left bunker, is a better play then driver right of shoe. Left is less blind and allows one to take the green side bunkers out of play and still get it close.
I disagree with Wyatt about left and long being of any use. Short left, is smart and short right is how you get it close most days. The up and down from behind this green is the little sister to the one facing players from the same area into 6 green, IMO.
What did chanon hit there, into the wind, in the hail storm?
He's the average "stronger" player I'd think that'd play the course....
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(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-2Green.jpg)
Joe,
I was speaking to the utilization of the back left slope shown here. While I agree with you that long, meaning over the green is dead, I don't see any use for an entire quadrant to be wasted.
My memory fades from time to time so let me know if I am missing something.
WH
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It seems with all this fantastic input that the general rule of thumb would be to stay out of those bunkers, whether centerline, left, or greenside on that shelf.
Who woulda thunk all these options would exist on a short par 4 with a wide fairway...should be an easy par everytime right?
Shivas, in rebuttal...I do not think that wide fairways is code for easy as has been suggested in threads of past. This hole is a great example of how a wide fairway is almost the opposite. Its got so many options that poor Huck is still on the tee trying to figure out what the hell to do!!
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If you think driver can make it to the bunkers into the wind but not over them then I don't see why that would be the play. Three wood at the big left bunker, is a better play then driver right of shoe. Left is less blind and allows one to take the green side bunkers out of play and still get it close.
I disagree with Wyatt about left and long being of any use. Short left, is smart and short right is how you get it close most days. The up and down from behind this green is the little sister to the one facing players from the same area into 6 green, IMO.
Great stuff, thanks Joe. Thus I have finally made up my mind on the tee... short and left it is.
;D
Re Shivas and wide fairways being a code word for easy, well... I don't think he meant that to include wide fairways with center bunkers.
TH
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PD #2 is a terrific hole, and one of my favorites on the course. It really makes you think. Pound for pound (ie yardage) it's one of the best holes anywhere IMO. Given my proclivity to "fade" the ball, I'm usually right of the Shoe bunker from the back tees and able to carry that bunker from the green tees unless there's a lot of wind. There's much more room on the right side of the fairway but the second shot is blind over a dune and very difficult. The good news is you can use the right greenside slope as a side board--just don't overdo it because playing from the junk greenside right is really tough.
Not much discussion of the green above. It is one of the best greens on the course. The slopes and contours are fairly subtle but challenging, and like a number of the PD greens they allow for many options for those who miss the green to use the slopes in various ways. I'll mention this again when we get to #4 and #8.
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Tom,
I meant to add that if you were to choose the right side every time, the approach is just as difficult from 75 yards as it would be from 200. Option A: Tight lob shot over the right greenside bunkers...don't catch it thin or it goes over the green into no man's land as Joe described. Option B: Long iron or fairway wood from THAT angle? No thanks!
The key to me is how shallow the green becomes with an approach from the right side. The green itself is not necessarily tiny, but the surrounding contours make it so.
I promise, I will leave for a while and let you putt out.
WH
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IIRC the back right portion of this green had a lot of stuff going on and remember having a wicked putt from above the hole!
I would also agree this was one of the more interesting greens on the course and its perhaps the slope of this green that makes coming in from the right so tough, as well as the blindness!
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Tom,
I meant to add that if you were to choose the right side every time, the approach is just as difficult from 75 yards as it would be from 200. Option A: Tight lob shot over the right greenside bunkers...don't catch it thin or it goes over the green into no man's land as Joe described. Option B: Long iron or fairway wood from THAT angle? No thanks!
The key to me is how shallow the green becomes with an approach from the right side. The green itself is not necessarily tiny, but the surrounding contours make it so.
I promise, I will leave for a while and let you putt out.
WH
Wyatt - no way man, I need the help! You aren't going anywhere. I've now hired you as caddie for those times Joe is unavailable. ;D
And those are great points re coming in from the right - that's kinda what I was thinking although that's easy to say NOW that you've spelled it out so well! I don't like that shot from the right no matter how far it is.
TH
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Interesting perspective on the green, Doug.
Subtle is not a word that would ever come to my mind when thinking about the green at #2. My recollection is that it has some of the most wild humps and bumps of any of the greens on the coruse.
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No more survey responses please. There will be something everyone can love and hate about this thread before we're done!
Sorry, I will chime in because I can ...
I would prefer multiple threads, one per hole.
As for clogging up the 1st page of the board, so be it, we are here to discuss architecture and god forbid we have multiple topics on it at once.
The one topic per hole will also provide an additional result, the holes discussed more might end being the "best" holes at PD, while the lessor discussed holes will fall to the bottom. Or maybe not ... one thing is for sure, we will now never know if this theory is true.
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Interesting perspective on the green, Doug.
Subtle is not a word that would ever come to my mind when thinking about the green at #2. My recollection is that it has some of the most wild humps and bumps of any of the greens on the coruse.
OK maybe not so subtle; I see from the photo there are more humps/bumps towards the front of the green than I remember (seems like we always played to a back pin where there is more of a sustained slope that was pronounced but not overly severe).
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#2 green was one of the last built, the gloves had came off at that point so to speak. And for my money the most severe pin location is back right.
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#2 green was one of the last built, the gloves had came off at that point so to speak. And for my money the most severe pin location is back right.
Joe,
Hard to argue against that one. That was where the pin was when I played it and I remember thinking it would be a tough 2 putt and I wasn't more than 20 feet away. A 3 putt is what I ended up with.
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How about a front nine thread and a back nine thread?
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Another great post Tim. I had the pleasure of hitting my drive into the left bunker. That bunker may be the worst bunker i have ever been in and my only choice was a lob wedge out.
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e223/hack839/Pacific%20Dunes%20Aug_06/IMG_1821.jpg)
This picture says what Matt just said.
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Steve, my partner and respected source for all things rocket science:
That's the central shoe bunker. The more sadistic one the one to the left.
TH
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I agree with Joe B about the correct play into the wind. If it's strong, I aim left and play short of the left-hand bunker (which Urbina and I named the "Horn" because it went with the Shoe). I don't mind having a longish club into that green, which is pretty receptive.
Joe B is dead wrong about the green, though. It was not nearly one of the last we built ... it was about the fourth or fifth green built, after #11, #10, #9 upper, and #5. Don Placek did the dozer work there, and it was the first green he ever built. When he started the front half was dead flat -- didn't drain anywhere -- so I had him jack up the middle a bit, which made the back left bit drain out the back.
This is definitely one of my favorite holes on the course.
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Hole #3 is a par 5
499 from the back tee
476 from the green
This is the second consecutive hole that's going to look really short on the card if you haven't played the hole in the summer. For me, there is no way I'm reaching it in two even though I'd normally be drooling over 476. The fairway is WIDE. There are several bunkers scattered throughout the fairway. Looking at the pictures, there is a ton of room to the right over the closest fairway bunker from the tee. Oddly enough, I can't remember ever playing the hole from the right side. The wind certainly contributes to this as it is not only hurting but also blowing a bit to the left in the normal summer conditions. I can only remember one ball I hit off the tee to the right side, and I didn't play it because it was lost in some gorse. It was WAY right. It's possible that I've journeyed down the right side, but I don't recall it. I'm always left of the center fairway bunkers, sometimes as wide left as #12 fairway.
The second shot (if you aren't going for the green) is one of those shots where you can lose your focus because there is plenty of room to play, but you sometimes find yourself accepting any result rather than committing to a target. Play it too close to the green and right and you have a tough pitch over the greenside bunker. Put it too far left and the last fairway bunker on the left or the gorse (or both - photo included!) will put the hurt on you.
The greenside bunker on the front right is another nasty one, depending upon where your ball comes to rest. The 3rd green is one of the few spots where I'm lacking photos. If anyone has a nice image of the green, I'd appreciate the support. I've got a few approach shots to the skyline green, but I don't have any that will give you a sense of the contours or movement on the putting surface. Any views from the right side of this hole are also appreciated!
Critics of this course like to point to the par 5s as one of the weaker links. I think #3 is a really good par 5, and while the par 4s and par 3s are the real strengths of the course (in my opinion, anyway) I think the par 5s do their job in contributing to this all-world golf course. As a set, the par 5s have grown on me with time (especially #12 and #15 but more on that later.)
For those of you that have never seen this course in person and have been following this thread, it can be hard to believe the course is going to continue to get better. While #1-#3 is a fine stretch of golf and one of the best openings around, #4 through #7 (and some would include 8 in this stretch) will outshine just about any 4-hole stretch of golf that exists. In other words, the best is yet to come!
The tee shot
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-3Tee.jpg)
Fairway bunkers
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD3Bunkers.jpg)
Some views of the approach (all on the left side :))
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD3Approach.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD3Approachwide2.jpg)
And a little closer to the green (still on the left)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-3Green.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-3Approach.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-3GreenDusk.jpg)
The bunker /gorse that is waiting for your thoughtless 2nd shot (you can see the result of mine)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-TPBBallin3Bunker.jpg)
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Joe B is dead wrong about the green, though. It was not nearly one of the last we built ... it was about the fourth or fifth green built, after #11, #10, #9 upper, and #5. Don Placek did the dozer work there, and it was the first green he ever built. When he started the front half was dead flat -- didn't drain anywhere -- so I had him jack up the middle a bit, which made the back left bit drain out the back.
TomD-
I stand corrected (although I still think it is one of wildiest greens on the course). I wonder where I got that from? Maybe a book on the construction of Pacific Dunes is in order.
Don's first effort is really impressive, has he built a better green since?
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Hi Tim. Not having been there I'm trying to disect purely from photo's so perhaps help me out here. From the photo's it looks like right is wider than left. Obviously the green side bunkers dictate a left approach if you're trying to get home in two. How far to get to the respective sets of bunkers centre and left?
Let's say it's playing into a strong summer wind and getting home in two isn't possible - would you consider the right option better? Do you play left because that suits your shape best or would you consider it the better strategy for most?
cheers, Dieter
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Dieter:
I would always want to play the approach shot from the left.
Since there are seldom conditions when I can go for the green in two, I usually play RIGHT off the tee, so I can get back to the LEFT on the second shot without having to mess with that bunker and gorse bush that are on the left about 125 yards from the green. If you play right off the tee, you can get past them easily.
That's why I think it's one of the best par-5's in Bandon. If you play left off the tee, thinking you're going to go for it in two, and you don't hit a great drive, then your second shot has to contend with the trouble left ... you get punished for thinking you were that good.
P.S. The first bunker in the middle of the fairway is about 240 yards off the tee. Into a summer wind, only the better players can get to it. In the Curtis Cup, they played the tee back on round 1, and the players all aimed right at the bunker and wound up just short ... so the second day they move the tee markers up a bit, and a lot of players hit right into the bunker. ;)
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Diter -
I've only been on the left because that's where my ball has gone - not necessarily because that's where I wanted to be. Tom is of course right that you want to approach the green from the left. I would say that if you can't make it home in two anyway, the ideal play into the wind would be right off the tee. This gives you a better angle to place your second shot a little left of the green - it makes that second shot look a little more open. Then you want to be beyond all the bunkers and on the left after your second which give you the ideal approach for your third.
If you thought we discussed a lot of options on hole #2, there are probably even more here. As I mentioned in the original post on #3, the fairway is gigantic.
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Pacific Dunes #3 is one of my favorite holes on the course. The expansive view from the tee with the ocean in the background is awesome. I've always gone right off the tee, but the shot to the left looks pretty inviting, especially if the wind is such that you might have a chance to reach the green in two. The greenside bunker to the right is epic. One feature I really like is the little clearing, almost a trail, that runs from behind the green. If you wind up there, which I have, you're grateful that you're not in the gorse, but you have a very delicate shot up a slope and then you have the front bunker in mind if you go long.
Question for those who go left off the tee? How much does the gorse obstruct your view of the green? Last time I played there, my caddie talked me out of going the left route and I still regret taking her advice.
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3rd green is always an elusive target for me. There is so much hateful trouble around it I just gag over the shot.
You don't want to be short. Long is quite possibly an unplayable lie. Right is doomed.
One of the deepest bunkers to be found anywhere is back left.
It's plenty wide open all the way to the dance floor, but until you are safely on the putting surface your work is not done yet when playing #3.
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3rd green is always an elusive target for me. There is so much hateful trouble around it I just gag over the shot.
You don't want to be short. Long is quite possibly an unplayable lie. Right is doomed.
One of the deepest bunkers to be found anywhere is back left.
It's plenty wide open all the way to the dance floor, but until you are safely on the putting surface your work is not done yet when playing #3.
Played the course many times before I ever knew the back left bunker was even there, until I hit into it in two a couple years ago. You do not want to be there.
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I love #3 also... a great par five in a course full of them. And excuse me while I take a second to vigrorously pat myself on the back... oops, don't pull any muscles... but I have always tried to play it exactly as Tom Doak does - that is, drive right, 2nd shot left, approach from there. Of course limitations of execution don't always make it work out that way, but that is the intent. I have to say having face it that there are few scarier pitches in golf than a 75 yarder (or less) coming in from the right off of tight turf... that front bunker is a place of death and destruction... so me no want that ever again. Coming in from the left is not so scary.
Of course what makes this hole so great is that with the proper wind getting close to the green, or maybe even all the way up and on, becomes very very tempting... and the center bunkers on the tee shot, well... they've gotten me also - not a happy place - but they force the choice off the tee which again is very very cool.
I think I've cited #3 in discussions about the world's great par fives... if not, I should have. I do very much love this golf hole.
TH
ps - no offense but it sucks that we moved to #3 right when Tom Doak came in and put the hammer down re #2! But I shall not wish for separate threads again...
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I can't disagree with whats been said about #3 so far...I think its nothing short of a terrific golf hole!
The fairway bunkers to me really create as close to a split fairway as you can get without actually having one. You really have to choose which way your going to go on both the tee shot and the layup.
Has anyone played it with a back right pin? Holy crap I can't imagine going at the pin even with a wedge in my hand.
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Pacific Dunes #3 is one of my favorite holes on the course. The expansive view from the tee with the ocean in the background is awesome. I've always gone right off the tee, but the shot to the left looks pretty inviting, especially if the wind is such that you might have a chance to reach the green in two. The greenside bunker to the right is epic. One feature I really like is the little clearing, almost a trail, that runs from behind the green. If you wind up there, which I have, you're grateful that you're not in the gorse, but you have a very delicate shot up a slope and then you have the front bunker in mind if you go long.
Question for those who go left off the tee? How much does the gorse obstruct your view of the green? Last time I played there, my caddie talked me out of going the left route and I still regret taking her advice.
Tim, the only time you should attempt to get the ball down the left side off the tee on number 3 is if you have a realistic chance to get home in two. Otherwise take Mr. Doak's advice, go right off the tee, get the approach back left and knock the 3rd on from there. With the gorse being cut back on the left, it's no longer a visually obstructed approach. The general rule of thumb for aiming left off the tee is: a minimal wind out of the north or a south wind, an ability to carry a shot 240 yards+ should the drive venture to the left side of the first middle bunker, the confidence and game to hit a 200 yard approach on a very tight line to a shallow green.
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When I played it I drove left, and it's not horrible, but it is difficult for the second. My shot ended up just short of the bunker, and my third was terrifying. There was no way I was going to end up in the bunker so I went just long, fortunately it was a relatively easy up and down.
This green and surrounds is one of the best I have ever seen, although there are many more coming up that give it a run for it's money.
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The third green is one of my favorite places in golf.
It is your first great view of the ocean and you know you have a bunch of fun holes ahead.
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The placement of the central bunkers on #3 is perfect. Any less room on the left and you wouldn't be tempted to go that direction. Any more room and you wouldn't have much incentive to tack to the right.
While there are good holes on the back 9, the stretch of Pacific from #2 to the drive on #9 is its real strength, IMO.
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Great thread! These pictures bring back vivid memories of the last time I played PD. I was part of a group of 8 mostly hockey guys. We had just finished playing in Canada and took off out of Victoria at 6:30am and while in flight we asked the pilot of the private jet to throw the plane down in Bandon. Someone called their assistant to make the arraignments at PD. We hop into a shuttle van and in no time at all we're on the first tee. No warm up, just a little putting on the practice green to the left of the 1st tee.
Two things that hockey guys love to do - golf and drink. We were on that pace for 4 days straight while north of the border, and there I am addressing my ball early in the morning and I couldn't pull the trigger. All my buddies are laughing and one says "Problems hitting a moving target Peter?". Yeah yeah yeah. 3 hours sleep, waaay too much to drink for 4 days, wind was blowing 30 mph+, so yeah the target was moving. The only thing I could think of was to close my eyes and swing. When I opened them the ball was sailing high with a slight fade and it landed dead center over the humped fairway. I still count it as one of my best shots ever. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/Banane21.gif)
The walking did some good and once we got over the crown of the first fairway we got the real wind. Man did it blow that day!
What a great place to play golf!
Thanks for putting this thread together.
- Peter
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#3 is my favorite of the first three.
I think it is an alomst perfect par 5.
The question to go in two is right there from the time you step onto the tee.
If you decide to lay up, the 2nd shot is the key.
A well placed 2nd up the left side makes 4 a real possibility while a safe but problematic 2nd up the right side can lead to major problems . . .
Love #3. What a view from the green . . .
-Ted
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I love #3 also... a great par five in a course full of them. And excuse me while I take a second to vigrorously pat myself on the back... oops, don't pull any muscles... but I have always tried to play it exactly as Tom Doak does - that is, drive right, 2nd shot left, approach from there. Of course limitations of execution don't always make it work out that way, but that is the intent. I have to say having face it that there are few scarier pitches in golf than a 75 yarder (or less) coming in from the right off of tight turf... that front bunker is a place of death and destruction... so me no want that ever again. Coming in from the left is not so scary.
Of course what makes this hole so great is that with the proper wind getting close to the green, or maybe even all the way up and on, becomes very very tempting... and the center bunkers on the tee shot, well... they've gotten me also - not a happy place - but they force the choice off the tee which again is very very cool.
I think I've cited #3 in discussions about the world's great par fives... if not, I should have. I do very much love this golf hole.
TH
What TH said above (except the butt-boy comments) [Emoticon omitted]. This hole has tons of strategy and, like many holes at PD, plays so very differently depending on the wind and which tees you're playing (footnote--my suggestion to folks playing more than one round there who are decent players is to play both the back and green tees on the same day). I've had really bad and really good experiences on this lovable hole, ranging from a plugged drive in the center bunker and a lunch date with the greenside right bunker one time to a downwind drive and 5 iron to 15 feet another. As others have said, the second shot is a whole lot more strategic than it looks and it's easy to just hit it anywhere safe. Then you have one of the hardest shots at PD for your third. I'd love to play this hole to a far back pin sometime.
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Just got back from 3days, and played Pacific Dunes twice.
One thing I really like is the narrowing of focus effect for this par 5. You start with an elevated tee, ocean view, and great bunkers. You have a pretty wide open second. By the third, you need to be focused in on a tiny target and give it all of your attention. The hole forms a large scale funnel, which I think makes it more suspenseful and heightens the attention level (More so, than say #15 or #12).
One example of the wide to narrow concept - assume you do want to be left on the approach to #3, I would claim you can actually hit the ball left, over the gorse and have a pretty simple hybrid draw toward the left side. I think the fairway from about 120 - 80yds feeds left. To me it's easy to be on the left side. (Though I do remember playing partners in the left bunker - and it is very possible to hit the green from that bunker.)
So I think you can pretty much hit it anywhere but the center bunker off the tee. You have a very wide palette to work with. I hit 3 wood to avoid the gorse thru the right, and it's plenty of club to get over the gorse on left. This was from back tees, with a light into wind.
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Tom - I thought Tom bringing the hammer down was a perfect finale to #2. Did you notice how I updated the subject line for your lazy ass, so you know when we're discussing a new hole?
I'm going to slow the pace down over the weekend just because I notice a lot of regular folks disappear those days. I'll probably post #4 pictures Saturday evening, and then let it sit until Monday night before I return with #5.
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One of my favorite features of the 3rd green are the two closely shaved "dune-ettes" behind the green...with the alley to hell between them...if you have a pin in front of one of these small dunes a shot that rolls over the green and up one of these hills rolls back onto the green...but if you miss them and go down the track some 30-40 feet down into the sandy collection area, BIG numbers!
Tough to say it's my favorite hole on the course, but the view of the ocean in the distance off the teebox is stuning.
And of course, after the hole...a pit stop in the outdoor loo and a quick chat with Betty in the snack bunker is a must before heading out for more adventure.
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The green on #3 has been my nemesis. I've played the hole five times and have yet to record a par. It's a great match play hole as anything can happen green side. I've been in the front bunker once. Walking down into it is like strolling through the doors on the first day of summer school. It's a sinking feeling second to no other on the course.
Twice I went over the green (all rounds winter rounds) and on one occasion right down the slope through the end of the gorse cul-de-sac. Pure death and the only unplayable lie option is to return to the spot of your previous stroke. So hack it out of the bushes and hope your forearms survive.
All of my bad results on #3 have been 100% due to choking and largely influenced by the thoughts of being in that bunker again. I don't think there's another hole anywhere which gets in my head more. It's a beautiful thing. I'm going to beat it this year so I am.
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Tim,
I am laughing as I post this because your photo essay/tribute brings up many a discussion that we had after playing all three of the existing Bandon courses.
In a similar vein, I remember many years ago reading "Golf in the Kingdom." No matter what others think of that book as a whole, the chapter where they go round the table at dinner and all the guests try to explain what "golf-is-all-about" is priceless and worth alone the cost of admission. I remember a friend saying that after the first guest spoke he was in his mind saying, "yes, yes..that's what golf is all about!" Then the next guest would speak and he would think, "no wait, THAT's what golf is all about." And so on.
As I go through this thread I get the same voice in my head: Yes, this is the greatest hole on the course! No wait, THIS is the greatest one! No wait, hold that thought!
I played the 3rd by taking it down the left side into a brutal wind. Tom Doak's comments are absolutely correct. That might be a great route to attack the hole in two shots - but it was the WRONG way to attack it for someone with my Length Deficiency Syndrome or LDS for all of you physicians in the house. I slightly mis-hit my layup shot. Coming from that angle, the wind grabbed the little weakling by the neck and hurled it WAY right. As for the rest of the tale, well let's just say you do not want to come into that green from the right hand side and leave it at that. :P
(Really good) Par five's might be the most difficult holes to create and this is one fine par five: the beauty of it, the strategies involved, the green complex - all of it makes for a terrfic hole.
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This is definitely one of my favorite holes on the course.
Tom, was #3 inspired by #8 at North Berwick at all? To my eye they have structural and similar playing characteristics and structure..
Just wondering, thanks.
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Eric:
No, I never thought of the 8th at North Berwick while we were building Pacific Dunes, although I believe I did go over and play it that same summer.
The idea for the central bunkering came from the fifth hole at Shinnecock, which I also played that summer. The green and tee sites were pretty much fixed by the necessities of the routing, so the Shinnecock inspiration was the only other thing needed.
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The placement of the central bunkers on #3 is perfect. Any less room on the left and you wouldn't be tempted to go that direction. Any more room and you wouldn't have much incentive to tack to the right.
Good point Tim. When faced with a left or right decision on the much "discussed" 8th at another of tom's courses (Barnbougle Dunes) I find that the left option is just a too narrow to tempt me. It's also still a tough shot to the green requiring a carry over the corner of the long stuff but at least it's not 10m uphill at the end of the shot. That narly Marram grass left is dead and a hanging lie on the "split" dividing the fairway is scary. I guess the area of rough separating the two options is different to the hole being discussed here but you still face the decision off the tee of which way to go. I just think a little more width left would be more tempting like at PD3.
I don't know if there were ever any thoughts to widen that side. There is truck loads of fairway out to the right. I just think that the length and difficulty of the second shot even up the left is difficult enough.
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I played Pacific for the 1st time last September. I arrived at Bandon with some back pain, but the morning I played Pacific, I pulled a muscle in my lower back at the range and could barely make half a swing. With my tee time quickly approaching, I ran back to my cottage, grabbed some advil and filled a plastic bag with ice from the freezer. I downed SIX advil and stuffed the ice between my shirt and jacket... no way was I going to miss this round!
I started off horrible... triple on 1, double on 2. Then came the 3rd!
After a good drive down the middle, I scalded a hybrid way right, landing behind the gorse hill to the right of the green. My 3rd cleared the gorse but fell short of the green, finding the deep bunker right of the green. From there I scalded another one, over the green into the gorse. After making an illegal drop for my unplayable lie, I got on in 6 and 2-putted for quadruple!
Then, in emotional agony, I looked at the view and took it all in. I totally let go of my disappointment about my back pain and poor play. It was then that those advil kicked in too and I finished the remaining 12 holes just 1-over! I'll never forget that initiation to Pacific.
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Hole #4 is a par 4
Black tee is 463
Green tee is 449
I can only imagine playing this hole in the brutal winter wind. In the summer, the hole plays much shorter than the yardage suggests. The impact of standing on the tee with the 100 foot cliff and the Pacific Ocean directly to your right will impact the first-timers swing more than the length of the hole. It's not uncommon for a moderate hitter to creep inside 150 on the approach with the strong wind and firm & fast conditions. From 150 it is a 9-iron or less with that same wind.
As with most holes on this course, there is plenty of room in the fairway. The ocean steers the weak-minded player to the left, and from there the trap is sprung. There's a lot of bunkering, rough, junk, you name it on the left. To make matter worse, from the left side the dune bunker guarding the left side of the green is brought into play. Speaking from experience, there isn't much worse than being in the bunker on the front of the greenside dune, having to hit a blind shot over the dune to land it on the green (with the ocean as the backdrop if you hit too far.)
It's a testament to the strength of the front nine at Pacific Dunes that the only hole on the ocean is spectacular, but may be no better than the 5th best hole in that set.
View from the tee out on the cliff
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-4Tee.jpg)
The fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-4ApproachDusk.jpg)
Looking back on the hole
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD4Lookbackwide.jpg)
Again looking back, this time as the sun goes down
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-4greentotee.jpg)
One of the coolest rounds I played out there was when the fog rolled in from the ocean for holes #4 - #8. Here's the tee shot as the fog approached (Just wait till you see how quickly it moves in when I get to photos on #5 and #6.)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD4TeeFog.jpg)
Fog still moving in. Here's the fairway from the left side with a peek at a couple of the fairway bunkers which are definitely in play from the tee. In the distance over the right most portion of the fairway bunker, you can see the dangerous dune bunkers by the green.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD4FairwayFog.jpg)
One more view looking back. The fog is really setting in. It took me 5 years to figure out this bunker existed behind the 4th green.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD4LookbackBunkerFog.jpg)
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The 4th hole screws with my rodent sized brain. The wind blows in from over your right shoulder usually pretty hard so it seems like lining up on the edge of the cliff with a straight drive is the play. Just let the wind bring it left to the center. But my mutinous eyes tell my weak-ass brain that I am lined up at the Pacific Ocean and my brain starts firing all kinds of 'go left' synapses to all sort of large and small muscles and the result is predictable.
I remember agreeing with my friend when we got to the 4th tee and he looked out and said "oh, so THIS is Pacific Dunes!"
-Peter
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One of my favorite holes in the world. So many challenges. The tee shot and approach are great but the real interest for me is the green complex. You have a green that is canted left to right and a huge ridge that seperates the front third of the green from the rest of the putting surface. As Tim said, the front left greenside bunker is no fun to be in, it is also deceptively further from the putting surface than imagined. There is also a nasty little bunker left of the green that catches shots from those bailing away from the ocean. And for those that misjudge their approach to the middle of the green, a cavernous bunker awaits of the back right of the green.
I really miss the old burnt tree that used to be my aiming point. The tree was a survivor of the fire that cleared the land and it was in the gorse patch just past the bunkers on the left side of the fairway. Also the loss of the Keiser tee down the cliff is also a bummer. There was no way to really get a mower to it and the land has stability issues.
Tim- Thanks so much for these photos. I alsmost feel like I'm back there.
Quick note re: Hole#3 - Interesting to see the gorse from the earlier years. I had forgot how much it blocked the view beyond the green and how much it crept into the right greenside bunker.
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Tim,
When I played there with my friends the hole played dramatically downwind. One of the big hitters that day AKA "The Munibomber" hit his drive into the bunker short of the green. That's how strong the wind was.
One of the coolest shots I got to hit that day was after just missing the green. My memory is a bit hazy on where the pin was that day, but one of knobs (perhaps the one showing in your last picture) interfered with going directly at the pin with even a chip shot. After conferring with my caddie, we decided the prudent shot was to paly AWAY from the green, UP a slope and let the ball feed down to the hole. As a group we watched as the ball banged up the slope, almost coming to a stop before rolling back down the slope toward the hole as we cheered it on. It just missed and I got my par. But the shot is what I remember the most.
(I thought this all took place more toward the back of the green; but I'm not sure after looking at your pictures. The flag may have been about where the second golf ball is in your third picture - the ball on the far right of the picture.)
And that is one of the really great and exciting things about Tom's course: the truly fun shots you get to play. It also bears out what a lot of the Golden Agers recognized; that the recovery shot is one of the most inherently exciting ones in golf.
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I just haven't had the balls to aim along the cliffs and let the wind bring the ball back left to the fairway, since my miss is a push right. Been left off the tee both times. Once in and once well beyond the left fairway bunkers. Laid up just short of the green from the fairway bunker in my 1st round and got up and down for a nice par. Very tricky approach from the left with the bunker and mound guarding the green and a cliff and rear bunker penalizing a lack of precision clearing them. If you don't take the center to right route off the tee, consider a short approach right of the greenside mound and bunker... then putt from off the green.
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I really appreciate this thread.
I've made mistakes in the past comparing PD unfavorably to other courses I've been enamoured with.
Trust me, PD is, other than Merion and Pine Valley, the greatest course I've ever set foot on.
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Tim,
You're doing a wonderful job with this. Keep up the great work.
If you sensibly favor the left side of the green on your approach, the ball may disappear behind the big front left bunker, then bound down to the right onto the green, sometimes a little too briskly.
"Where is it? There it is! Stop!"
The front pin location is a bowl, and a good quarter to half shot easier than other pin locations.
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I love the 4th hole and consider it the best 4th hole I've ever played. I like how you need to flirt with those left hand bunkers and have a little faith that things will work out alright. A little too much speed and your screaming at your ball to stop before it runs down the cliff. What a blast!
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I find it interesting but not surprising that the fourth hole has drawn great praise, but generally less comment than the other three holes so far. It's much more straightforward in its design than any of the first three holes, because the cliff on the right has so much to say on its own.
What I find interesting is the variety of opinions here on what that means. Some posters believe that this is the best of the holes so far discussed, because of the setting or just because it's a big hard hole. Some posters believe it's the least interesting hole, because there isn't a split fairway or center bunkers or anything which forces attention to the man-made architecture. We haven't heard from anyone yet who decries the hole because it's a sell-out to run the hole along the cliff edge instead of finding a cooler green site somewhere inland, or from anyone who thinks the hole is overrated because of its setting, though I am sure they are out there.
My own thought is that when you have a setting like this it would be stupid to build anything which attempts to compete with that setting. You take the cliff edge for what it is, and work with it. The fairway is the most conventionally bunkered on the course -- pinched left and cliff edge right -- because if we let everyone just bail out as far left as they wanted, the second shot would be nearly impossible from that angle.
This green is entirely Jim Urbina's, he had to cut most of it out of the dune on the left, which was about 25 feet from the cliff edge when he started. The only thing I added to his first pass was the back bunker. The ground back there was undercut by the cliff edge, and I was afraid one day it would go over the edge while someone was trying to chip back to the green, so we dug that part out and then kept digging to make the bunker.
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My own thought is that when you have a setting like this it would be stupid to build anything which attempts to compete with that setting.
I couldnt agree more. The cliff takes care of everything on this hole as it weighs heavy on even the most strong minded golfer. A few fairway bunkers left to keep him honest is all that is required.
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Tom,
It could just very well be that this was posted on the weekend and hence less commentary on the golf hole.
As for myself I'm likely on other side of the varying opinions part. I did like the fairway bunkering and greenside bunkering on the left side of the hole. IIRC the fairway is almost a bit blind from the tee box and perhaps this influenced the way how I felt as opposed to having a tee box on 13 where everything can be pretty clearly seen.
I know many absolutly love this hole, but of the 1st 7 holes, this was my least favorite. Which isn't a bad thing, still a good hole, just not as interesting as the other 6 IMO.
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The safe shot here is actually to the right. I think I would have been better off in the ocean than in the left bunkers. As it was I ended up in the bunkers short left of the green in two and my second attempt to remove my ball ended in a bladed shot into the fescue on the top edge of the bunker. It was five feet in front of me and I couldn't find it. Another drop into the bunker and I scrambled nicely to save 7.
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The fairway is the most conventionally bunkered on the course -- pinched left and cliff edge right -- because if we let everyone just bail out as far left as they wanted, the second shot would be nearly impossible from that angle.
Hit one of my best (or at least most memorable) shots ever from that nearly impossible angle. Playing last June from the back tees, first time ever at PD, I completely bailed out on a drive and ended up left of the bunkers in some wispy stuff. Seemed like all I could see was the dunes/bunker left. Caddy tells me to play safe and short, but I'm already 2 down to my buddy (who's in the middle of the fairway) so decide to go for it, and end up absolutely lasering a 5 iron right over the bunker. Because I walked straight to the green from that angle, I had no idea where it ended up until getting relatively close to the green -- where I saw it sitting three feet from the hole. Imprudent, sure, but also tons of fun!
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The ocean steers the weak-minded player to the left, and from there the trap is sprung.
I am the weak minded player. No none can convince me that the fairway bunker set isn't a center line hazard simply because my ball found the center of it every time.
I think it is yet another reminder that all bunkers on this course are first and foremost hazards. Another example of architecture that sets Pacific apart in my opinion.
In addition, the placement of the bunker in regards to both distance from the tee and proximity to the ocean edge are spot on.
It was mentioned on a previous thread that Mr. Dye was not fond of bunkers on the outside of doglegs because the good player could just use them as an aiming reference. While I'm not certain I would categorize #4 as a dogleg right, the fact remains that the fairway bunker dominates the decision from the tee. Given the variable wind and turf conditions at Pacific, I think this would be a good example of why not to use a bunker as an aiming reference.
WH
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I really like the 4th hole. I've only played this hole into the winter wind, and it's very tough. As others have said, the challenge is to tell yourself you can fit the ball between the bunkers and the cliff. A tough sell for this L-R player! I'm usually around or in the bunker. The angle is very tough for a second shot from there, as it should be. I've tried laying back short of the bunker but that is a very long second shot into the wind. So it's very much a do or die tee shot. I like the green complex on this hole even better than the rest of it. The left side of the green is replete with options for playing creative shots. Like another poster I used the bank left of the green one time to get a shot close--I don't think there is a more fun shot in golf than the shot that feeds off a feature like that.
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One of the entertaining things about this hole is that you are shown the ocean, you play along the cliff, and then it's taken away as you move further inland with #5. You don't return to the cliffs until #11.
So, it's good to have the ocean early in the round and it serves as a great 'cliff break' later on in the 11,12, and 13th holes. It looks like 4 and 12 could have been switched but then you would have had 3 cliff holes in a row. The existing routing is much more entertaining in my opinion.
- Peter
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Peter:
In an earlier routing for Pacific Dunes, number 4 (playing backwards) did follow number 11 in the routing, although we came back up #12 after that, then played #6 and #3 (to #12 green) to get to #13. But, Mr. Keiser thought it would be better to have one ocean hole with the hazard on the right, and playing downwind in summer.
It took me some time to figure out how to adjust the green sites to make this work out ... I couldn't do it while the whole of #4 and #12 and #3 were still under the gorse. Once the gorse burned, we could see how great #4 would be from the point of the back tee (you couldn't see that indentation in the coastline if you were playing to the north), and then we found the location for #3 green hiding in the gorse, lowered it a few feet, and we were all set.
Incidentally, some people complain about the walk from #11 to #12, but the above is the reason for that walk ... so you can get to the coast between holes 3 and 5, and get away from it between 11 and 13. We were going to use the back of #5 tee for the 12th tee originally, but there was not enough tee area and too much traffic there, plus we were afraid some smart-ass might play backwards down #4 to shorten 12. So, you have to walk around #5 tee to get to 12 tee.
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It took me 5 years to figure out this bunker existed behind the 4th green.
I found this bunker last fall with Joe caddying for me. My own damned fault, but I hit a great shot onto the green and the ball just wouldn't hold. Turned what should have been an easy 4 (or possibly 3) into a 6.
Great thread.
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Very memorable when I played it, but not necessarily one that I think about when I look back at the course. Maybe because 13 is so much more dramatic.
Pacific Dunes #4 is a better hole than #13, IMO. Don't get me wrong, #13 has a lot going for it--the sand dunes are mammoth, obviously, and the ocean doesn't hurt. I've hit everything from a SW to a 3 wood into #13. But, I don't think you're tested as much off the tee on #13 as you are on #4 and you're not potentially faced with as difficult of a shot on #13 as you are on #4, namely the approach from the left. I wouldn't say it's my favorite hole, but I wouldn't change a thing about it. After the view of the ocean on #3, bringing it (or at least the cliffside) into play and into full view on #4 is terrific. Definitely not a sell-out.
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Tom,
Please indulge a non-architect a couple of dumb questions:
When you first walked this raw land with Mr. Keiser, did you start mentally laying out holes first along the cliff and then successively the rest? Is that how a project like this gets started?
Was there added pressure in the design phase of PD because of the perfect nature of the site? Maybe it's just me but a thought in my head might have been, "oh man, don't screw this up".
- Peter
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A sampling of more photos of #4 ... each with a story ...
(http://cdn-566.homes.com/c1/cgi-bin/readimage/180086566)
(http://cdn-738.homes.com/c1/cgi-bin/readimage/180086738)
(http://cdn-492.homes.com/c1/cgi-bin/readimage/179307492)
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Peter:
I have written a whole chapter of a book on the routing process for Pacific Dunes. Someday I'll polish it off and get it published.
For now I will just say that Mr. Keiser was more focused on the "ocean holes" at first, because they were the easiest to visualize, and because he knew that most golfers would find those holes the most memorable. The truth is probably the other way around -- any holes along the oceanfront were probably going to be considered great holes because of the setting, so how the holes inland connected to them was probably the more important part of the puzzle to solve, and was the key to where the ocean holes started and stopped. But, yes, I suppose I probably looked to figure out the cliff edge first in my initial routing, even if I had it wrong then.
(My first version of the routing was done on maps that didn't show the 6th & 7th holes at Bandon Dunes, so some holes I'd drawn through there had to be scrapped, which changed most of the rest of it.)
I have told many people that whatever "added pressure" there was because we had a great site to work with at Pacific Dunes, the other side of the coin was that it was a tremendous opportunity, which balanced out any pressure. The only time we had any hesitation was when it was time to put a blade in the ground on #5 and start building something ... Jim Urbina and Dave Wilber and I were the only ones around that day, other than Peter Pittock was there to visit, and yes there was a moment when we all realized what we were about to start. But as soon as we tore into the green site, it was gone, and we didn't think about it again until the last hole (#15) was finished.
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Tom,
I've never played Cape Kidnapper's but a mutual friend of ours describes it as "Pacific Dunes on steroids". When I look at web pics of CK I don't see the 'steroids' part but there must have been some Pacific Dunes influence in the design of CK. Any thoughts?
Sometimes you hear architects say there was a 'happy accident' during the construction of a hole. Somebody drove a dozer too far or whatever, creating an unintended feature that is kept. Anything like that at Pacific Dunes?
- Peter
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Peter:
Cape Kidnappers is a totally different course than Pacific Dunes, perhaps deserving of its own thread (like this) someday. I hate the "on steroids" marketing phrase, but Cape K is 450 feet above the ocean, Pacific 100, and that leads to some of the main differences between them.
As for "happy accidents", the happiest was just that we were chosen to be the guys who got to build a course on that site. I'll note any others on the hole-by-hole notes.
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This is one of my favorite pictures from any of my golf trips. There is something about the path leading you toward the 4th fairway that hints at the journey ahead.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj310/eko_gfl/PacificDunes4.jpg)
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Tom,
Was there ever any consideration to raise the tee height on #4, or did you guys keep that tee at the grade you found it? I'm guessing it wasn't by accident that the hole plays a touch blind and always interesting to hear about what your intended strategy was in putting those tees where they are.
Kalen
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Kalen:
Never thought about raising the tee, other than sand-capping it as we did for the entire hole. There IS an elevated Tiger tee back by the snack bar at about 530 yards for those who like a nice view, though that is an awkward angle to play from; but it would have looked odd to build up the tees with the rest of the cliff line at a uniform height.
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OK - So I just about had everything typed up on the 5th and then I tried to click on a different tab in my browser and I accidentally clicked a shortcut to MapQuest. Since I can quite figure out how to get my comments back (since they were never saved and posted) I'll be doing my best to re-create my thoughts. The 5th is on its way shortly.
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Hate to ask another "newbie" question, but I what is "sand-capping?"
By the way, I've always wondered - to this group's knowledge, has Tiger (or Phil, or some other superhuman pro) ever played PD or the other Bandon tracks? I'm curious to hear what kind of reaction they might have.
Consider this - those guys probably don't get to experience the "buddy-trip" anymore. As I write this, I'm less than 36 hours from leaving for our first trip to Bandon. None of the eight of us have ever been. Though I'd probably sacrifice a kidney to play like Tiger, et. al., I feel badly for some of those guys that they don't get to enjoy the courses like we do - they probably don't get anxious and giddy to play a few rounds on an extended vacation from their daily lives like many of us can. And when TD and C&C are laying out tracks, they're probably thinking more of guys like my friends and me than Tiger or Phil (TD's comment above about a Tiger tee notwithstanding).
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The 5th is a par 3
199 from the black tees
181 from the green tees
In honor of Haiku Tuesday (even though it is Monday night):
Timeless; without shape
Fifth green at Pacific Dunes
Front left turbo boost
In my opinion nothing is lost by turning away from the ocean. For the first time player it is nearly impossible to imagine that the course is only going to get better from here. That's exactly what happens in my opinion, and the repeat player walks off the 4th green without regret (other than, of course, the round where I carded a 10) anxious to play one of the best stretches of golf anywhere.
The 5th is one of my favorite par 3s on the course (and it has some mighty fine company as I think the par 3s are one of the great strengths of the course.) The only one I outright prefer is #11 (more on that later.) This one has grown on me with each subsequent trip.
I absolutely love the 5th green. As I posted on a different thread (which I won't mention in order to avoid de-railing the discussion we've got going here) what I find most fascinating about the green is its lack of definition. I am still unable to discern the actual shape or form of this green. Every photo makes it look slightly different. The fact that it melds beautifully with the surrounding turf is another huge plus. Many of the greens at Pacific Dunes have this feature, but this one stands out to me as one that has no true beginning or end. Take a look at some of the edges in the photos here and hopefully you'll see what I mean.
If this was the first hole constructed as Tom says it must have been an inspired start, and it also must have provided some great momentum for the rest of the process.
The view from the 5th tee (sans fog)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-5Tee.jpg)
The view from the tee (fog included)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD5TeeFog.jpg)
Approaching the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-51.jpg)
And three views of the green I love so much
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD5Lookbackwide.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD5BD6inbackgroundwide.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-5Green.jpg)
I apologize in advance for the train wreck I'm going to make of the 6th hole. I know not how to constrain myself when taking photos of that hole and I likely won't be able to limit myself when posting them either. That's for another day.
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I'll tee the commentary off with my own question now that I'm look closely at the photos I just posted. Consider the final three photos I posted; the close-ups of the green. The 3rd of 3 was taken in 2003. The other two were taken in 2007. It actually appears as if the natural meld with surroundings occurred along the way between those two trips. The photo from 2003 shows a clear edge to the green.
Does anyone familiar with the maintenance practices at the resort know if this has evolved over time or it is just likely a coincidence or timing of photo since last mowing? I personally love the ones from 2007 where it looks like the green just runs right into the rest of the turf.
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Tim
Thank you for this great thread. Pacific Dunes is one of my favorite places in the world and I feel so very lucky to live so close and be able to spend time there.
I love the 5th green complex. The shot can be changed so much depending on pin position and the wind. I love playing the shot off the bank left of the green to a front or middle pin and rolling it on. The back pin is very tough to get close to.
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Morning, Tim;
The maintenance practices here at Bandon Dunes in relation to the definition of the green edges has evolved, more or less, over time, accelerated by the opening of Bandon Trails and Ken Nice's management of the nearly perfect fescue greens there.
Having said that, there are certain times of the year when the edges appear more defined, based on moisture and rate of growth of the turf.
The other factor that affects this presentation is the personal preferences and practices of each superintendent; there is some differences between the courses that is the result of each supt's style, as well as the age of the turf.
Hope this helps, and thanks for a terrific thread!
Tom
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Tom J: Doesn't the "lack of definition" have something to do with not mowing a clean-up lap around the green on an everyday basis?
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Tom D.,.........Yes, and no. As you are aware, we are on a every other day mow and roll (april-nov), so if we don't mow a cleanup pass one day in the mowing schedule, that effectively is a three day break in the clean up pass.
In general, the fescue plant grows so slowly in our system that nearly eliminating the cleanup passes from the schedule doesn't make an appreciable difference in the result.
When one factors in the many local differences (i.e., between courses, greens within courses, and areas around the edge of individual greens), the result is that there are many instances where there is a persistent absence of a green edge here, and a persistent edge there.
The end result is a great variety, a natural, sorta seemless look, all of which becomes part of our presentation of true links conditions, Bandon Dunes style.
Tom
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Missed the discussion of 4. Oh well.
So on to 5... and well... to me 5 is a let-down after the first 4. Or maybe I just kinda want to get it over with because I know what's coming next, only possibly the greatest short par 4 on this planet. But re 5, I can't really put a finger on it really but it just fails to inspire me all that much. We taste the ocean, then quickly move away from it. The "lack of definition" surely does nothing for me; and as Tom J. says, sometimes that's there, sometimes it's not. Oh I do think this is a very good golf hole - the play banking it in from the left is very cool - and it gets very tough in any sort of wind... I just have a hard time calling it "great" whereas I have no reticence doing so for any of the prior holes.
But I think in the end this is OK... this is like a palate cleanser after the incredible appetizers and before the fantastic entrees that are to come....
And that's a good thing. Golf courses can be "too much" also.
TH
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Charlie,
Playing that hole downwind in the summer wind makes using the left an almost must because if you land it on the green i doubt you can get it to stay on the green. Last time I played after duffing my tee ball I hit a wedge approach that landed short left and it almost ran off the back. A back pin is pretty tough to get anywhere close.
I really liked this hole and it would have been one of my favorites if there weren't so many other great holes on the course. Both its playability and how it blends in were both high points for me. To boot the ocean views are still really really good on this hole so no disappointment after leaving 4.
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Charlie,
Playing that hole downwind in the summer wind makes using the left an almost must because if you land it on the green i doubt you can get it to stay on the green. Last time I played after duffing my tee ball I hit a wedge approach that landed short left and it almost ran off the back. A back pin is pretty tough to get anywhere close.
I really liked this hole and it would have been one of my favorites if there weren't so many other great holes on the course. Both its playability and how it blends in were both high points for me. To boot the ocean views are still really really good on this hole so no disappointment after leaving 4.
I assume you mean a front pin is tough to get close? That's been my experience and it seems to hang together with everything else you've said.
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Tim,
Yes you are correct a front pin is probably even more difficult to get close to, but a rear pin is just as bad beause if you land it up on that shelf its not staying. So one must use some guess work and run it up the slope to even have a chance.
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I really liked this hole and it would have been one of my favorites if there weren't so many other great holes on the course. Both its playability and how it blends in were both high points for me. To boot the ocean views are still really really good on this hole so no disappointment after leaving 4.
Kalen - you turn away from the ocean for the most part... and my disappointment after leaving 4 is more in terms of knowing what's to come, as I say. The first time I played PD I thought 5 was a very cool golf hole (and I still do); there was zero disappointment. Each subsequent playing I kinda like it less and less, just want to get it over with.. which causes me to short-shrift it and be sorta tricked into playing it poorly! That is, I think about 6 as I play 5.. and 5 doesn't have enough going on to change this, at least not for me. In the end this is a good thing I think, in the overall context of the course... 5 is a fine sorbet. But taking it in a vacuum and just looking at it as a single golf hole, well... I don't see the greatness. The good news is this only tends to matter when talking hole against hole outside the context of the course as a whole, which is an esoteric discussion at best, meaningless at worst.
5 works as it is. I think perfectly so, the more I think about it.
TH
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I agree that it's easy to overlook #5 because of what came before and what is coming after, but it's a very good par 3, IMO. It sits very well on the land (as Kalen said) and the green is full of interest. It's a bit of a respite after #4, which can be very difficult, and #6, where you can make a 3 or an X. Although not one of my favorite holes on the front 9, I think you can argue that #5 is one of the better par 3s on the course (I prefer #11; I think #5 is better than #14). #5 is probably the most "linksy" of the par 3s.
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I agree that it's easy to overlook #5 because of what came before and what is coming after, but it's a very good par 3, IMO. It sits very well on the land (as Kalen said) and the green is full of interest. It's a bit of a respite after #4, which can be very difficult, and #6, where you can make a 3 or an X. Although not one of my favorite holes on the front 9, I think you can argue that #5 is one of the better par 3s on the course (I prefer #11; I think #5 is better than #14). #5 is probably the most "linksy" of the par 3s.
Agreed with all of that, Tim. The problem comes when 5 is compared with other great golf holes on other great golf courses. If we don't do that, we have no problems. 5 is a very good par 3 and works in the context of the course perfectly.
TH
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Tom,
I've only played it once, so you certainly have better perspective in the mutliple plays dept. I just really digged the look of the hole and came to like it even more when it played just as fun as it looks.
I would agree when you know whats coming next its likely hard to focus on 5, but I could gladly play holes like this all day. While I liked 11 and 14 better as par 3s, 5 was no slouch.
Tim I think captured part of its essence too with its "linksy" feel and flavor, especially in light of how this hole almost demands a run-up approach to keep it on the green.
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I really liked this hole and it would have been one of my favorites if there weren't so many other great holes on the course. Both its playability and how it blends in were both high points for me. To boot the ocean views are still really really good on this hole so no disappointment after leaving 4.
Kalen - you turn away from the ocean for the most part... and my disappointment after leaving 4 is more in terms of knowing what's to come, as I say. The first time I played PD I thought 5 was a very cool golf hole (and I still do); there was zero disappointment. Each subsequent playing I kinda like it less and less, just want to get it over with.. which causes me to short-shrift it and be sorta tricked into playing it poorly! That is, I think about 6 as I play 5.. and 5 doesn't have enough going on to change this, at least not for me. In the end this is a good thing I think, in the overall context of the course... 5 is a fine sorbet. But taking it in a vacuum and just looking at it as a single golf hole, well... I don't see the greatness. The good news is this only tends to matter when talking hole against hole outside the context of the course as a whole, which is an esoteric discussion at best, meaningless at worst.
5 works as it is. I think perfectly so, the more I think about it.
TH
As is often the case, I find myself agreeing with Huck . . .
-Ted
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Kalen - I've played the hole ten times, so the multiple play perspective can go either way. I've enjoyed it slightly more with each play; Tom slightly less. It's all good - that's why we discuss them.
The first thing that struck me on my return trip that I didn't notice the first time was how well it all blended. Once I became more acquainted with the bunkers and the associated recovery shots I started to like the hole a little more. I also love watching the ball feeding forward 40+ yards on the ground from the kick point and wondering if I got it right until it stops.
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Ted - that's a scary place to be, agreeing with me.
;D
But this also illustrates to me part of the greatness of this forum. It takes dicussions like these - at least for me, a lot of the time - to think a different way, see a different side, learn and hopefully come to some better enlightenment. This thread got me to think about 5 more in the context of the course and not as a separate entity... and to realize that's more important in the end. That might be fundamental for some, but I tend to take longer to grasp some things.
Kalen - oh I get ya, and others, who want to praise this hole as no slouch, etc. It surely is a damn good hole in and of itself. Just how good, well.... since it works so well in the context of the course, that ought to be enough... and maybe in the end makes it worthy of even more praise?
Hmmmmm.... I find myself backing off previously held comparisons with other golf holes....
But that's a discussion for another day.
Tim - I guess enjoying it less with each play is overstating how I feel. I think the first time it wowed me, now like I say I am so stoked to get to 6 and reeling for so many reasons after 1-4, I overlook it. The problem is mine.... but I think Doak trapped me a bit too, as this is certainly not a golf hole to overlook. So score yet another one for him.
TH
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Missed the discussion of 4. Oh well.
No problem, just go to the Hole 4 thread and make your comm ..., oh wait, never mind ...
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Missed the discussion of 4. Oh well.
No problem, just go to the Hole 4 thread and make your comm ..., oh wait, never mind ...
You are a bad bad man.
You also make a very good point.
TH
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Missed the discussion of 4. Oh well.
No problem, just go to the Hole 4 thread and make your comm ..., oh wait, never mind ...
You are a bad bad man.
You also make a very good point.
TH
Let it go, gentleman! You had all day Monday to catch up from your weekend off. There's also plenty of time to tell us what you think about #4 from now until tonight when I post #6. There's no reason you can't share your thoughts now that the discussion on #5 is winding down if you have anything interesting to add. It's no more confusing than trying to track down 18 individual threads.
By the way, when all is said and done with this thread I plan to provide a consolidated photo only thread (sans discussion) for those that want to browse pictures start to finish. Thanks to Mike Hendren for that idea.
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Tim -
I just figured it would be really weird, if not rude, to comment on 4 now that the title reads "5th hole commentary now in progress." And note I was not at a computer for any of Sat and Sun and very little of Monday. So while yes, there was time... I just missed it. My loss. Mike just does make a very good point, as this wouldn't be an issue if there were separate threads for each hole. But no matter... on the whole I was just having fun with you.
In any case now that you've thrown discussion on 4 open again.....
My feeling is that if one was to put this in the great golf holes of the world, or even put it in the top par fours on this course, one would be over-rating it. I do think it's a beautiful golf hole for sure - and oh yes scenic beauty does matter to me - and the tee shot from down below halfway down the cliff was thrilling... but now that that tee is closed, well... I will say that particularly in the winter wind it is a very difficult golf hole... and the massive change from winter to summer is very cool... and either way, one breathes a sigh of relief when finishing it because of its round-ruining potential.... but to me, it just seems odd - a very penal golf hole in a course otherwise full of vexing strategic choices. By that I mean this: early in this thread you saw how it took me forever to figure out how to play the tee shot on 2 - and that to me is what golf fun is all about! It takes me two miliseconds to decide what to do on 4... just hit it straight! Just don't go in ocean and don't go in bunker left - that it's for "thought" - the hole is all about execution. That's just not my cup of tea. Oh for sure I have no clue how any of it could be differently - and again, it is a very very good golf hole for all the reasons previously stated - I just do find it odd and more of a ball-buster than anything that elicits joy or thrills or vexing thought.
But perhaps it works in context as well... I'm sure it does... and that makes it worthwhile for sure.
I just don't feel right about singling it out as a great golf hole - kinda like 5. That's cool too though - there are many other holes on the course for which one can wildly cheer with no reservations.
TH
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Just wait until I declare #9 my least favorite hole on the course days after Tom Doak declared it his favorite driving hole he's ever built. We've all got opinions and I like to hear everyone's - even when their wrong! Oh wait, an opinion can't be wrong.
You and I agree that #2 and #3 are better holes than #4, even though #4 is all-world scenery. I'm not sure where I stand on #1 vs. #4. We both know that #6 is better than all of the ones before it (I think #2 is a close 2nd.)
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Concur with that last part.
Re #4, I just also wonder if any others have comments one way or the other on the thought that this is a penal golf hole in a course otherwise full of strategic choices, and whether that's a bad thing or not. I'm not sure myself.
How do I love the tee shot on 9? Let me count the ways... but I shall wait for that.
TH
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Tom:
I guess from most people's perspective, #4 would be a penal or shot-testing golf hole, especially in comparison with others on the course. But I think there is a place for those in any course. 12 and 15 at Augusta are pretty penal, no? 10 at Pebble Beach is actually pretty similar to #4 at Pacific Dunes ... so is #7 at Ballybunion. Couldn't help but think of both of those holes a little bit when we were building it.
More on topic, though, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, how would you make a hole hard against the cliff into a "strategic" hole? If you gave players way more room to drive the ball, they'd just get themselves into impossible position for the second shot. For that matter, you can drive it into #12 fairway if you really want to ...
On #13, we made a wider fairway and gave you more options of left vs. right, but I didn't think it made sense to do that twice in the same round.
I actually think #4 is a greater hole than #13, BECAUSE it's more testing and it uses the cliff to its ultimate effect.
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Tom:
Well, as I said, I have no clue how anyone could have done it differently - my question more remains the effect of one standout penal hole in a course filled with holes requiring strategic choices; and you answered that! In the end it works. The Pebble and Augusta and Ballybunion examples are telling, but I also think that one ball-buster to keep one on one's toes is not a bad thing at all either. I guess in the end this is more about my personal preferences; #4 is indeed more testing than 13, but testing is sure not what it's all about, at least not for me! In my weird personal world I like to have vexing choices AND be tested - you know, like you do on #6? And on 13, well... there is distance choice on the tee shot there as well as left or right (obviously depending on wind)... so for that combined with one of the world's most striking features (HUGE sand dune on right), I tend to prefer 13 to 4. But you're right, twice in one round may well have been too much for a cliff-side tee shot with a wide fairway.
SO... I won't argue too much with those who praise #4. Hell in the end it is a great golf hole. I just don't find it to be my personal cup of tea, not compared to 2, 6, 13, 16 in particular, others that offer vexing choices in general.
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Great! Back to #5 ...
The main thing about this hole is that it's a par-3 designed for a strong tailwind. You don't see that too often in modern design, and most golfers tend to like their par-3 targets small and well defined by bunkers ... but on this hole if we'd done that it would have been unplayable most of the summer. As it is, you can land the ball on the front edge and there are still days when it might not stop before running all the way over the back.
The approach is awkward and takes a few rounds to get a feel for. I tend to leave it short left as often as not, and it's hard to make 3 from there if the greens are fast.
This was indeed the first hole we built. It only took 2-3 days to get it shaped, bunkers and all.
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Tom D. - damn right it's tough to make a 3 from the left if the greens are fast (which they always have been when I've played there) - that's part of the fun of this hole also. To me, it looks like a breather, and I treat it like a breather after the bitch-ness of 4, and with the glory of 6 pending.... and it inevitably bites me. You know the more we discuss this the cooler and cooler 5 is getting in my mind. Love this thread!
TH
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Tom,
If we keep discussing it until your trip up there in 2010, maybe by then the hole will be even cooler and make you an espresso with a back rub after your done with the hole. ;D
Good to see your coming around though. Aestically one of the nicest things I found about the hole is all the grasses that surround it. When the wind is up and it usually is, these wave and titter so back and forth almost teasing saying "make sure you don't hit it here".
Additionally you hit the "looking for a break" part right on the head. After playing a par 5 that plays long into the wind, and then the par 4 4th which is just plain tough, it seems like a welcome respite until you realize you need to hit a tee good shot just to get it to stay on the green.
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Kalen - just understand though that again, if this hole is compared in a vacuum to other number fives, or other great par threes, it's not going to fare well, not as I see it. I do think it works very well in the context of the course, and does get cooler and cooler to me in that respect. But taken alone? Not so much.
Which really just says that consideration of holes out of context is pretty stupid.
TH
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Kalen - just understand though that again, if this hole is compared in a vacuum to other number fives, or other great par threes, it's not going to fare well, not as I see it. I do think it works very well in the context of the course, and does get cooler and cooler to me in that respect. But taken alone? Not so much.
Which really just says that consideration of holes out of context is pretty stupid.
TH
Tom,
I'd agree 100% with that last statement. Its tough to judge any hole on its own merits without getting the entire context that its in.
For me, one of the finer par 3's I've played, but then again I'm not Americas Guest who has played what 500 courses? ;D ;)
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Well, I have been playing this game for 35 years. If I've only played 500 courses in that time, that's not all that much. Others here dwarf me.
But if we want to make the statement, well... I can't put #5 PD in the short list of greatest par threes I've ever played. But the hole works very well... so in the end, who cares?
TH
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Kalen - just understand though that again, if this hole is compared in a vacuum to other number fives, or other great par threes, it's not going to fare well, not as I see it. I do think it works very well in the context of the course, and does get cooler and cooler to me in that respect. But taken alone? Not so much.
Which really just says that consideration of holes out of context is pretty stupid.
TH
It does, however, fare pretty darn well against an average par 3 #5 hole at another great (but not quite Pacific Dunes) oceanside course on the west coast.
Give me a little credit, Tom H. Six pages in on this thread and I haven't brought up that comparison yet. I'm letting this course stand on its own in this thread. I promise I'll continue to not go there if you and Mike relent on the multiple thread jabs. Of course, Mike I believe may fall on oppostie sides of the fence on that battle which may give him little or no incentive to stop the jabbing.
I just can't wait to post the #6 photos, but fair warning there's a chance that won't occur until tomorrow evening. I'm doing my best to track toward tonight.
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Well, I have been playing this game for 35 years. If I've only played 500 courses in that time, that's not all that much. Others here dwarf me.
But if we want to make the statement, well... I can't put #5 PD in the short list of greatest par threes I've ever played. But the hole works very well... so in the end, who cares?
TH
Agreed...who cares.
Tim,
We're ready for #6. Huck is ready to go and has a 2 page essay with discussion and analysis on how to play #6, stay out of the sand, and get one of those rare 3s.
I'm also curious to see Tom D's comments on this hole in terms of its genesis and just how bad of a day he was having when he decided to put that massive bunker front left, the fallaway slope behind, death left, and a teeny green that normally plays with a nasty crosswind. ;D
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But if we want to make the statement, well... I can't put #5 PD in the short list of greatest par threes I've ever played.
TH
I agree 100% with this. For me, however, it does make the slightly more expanded list of some very great par 3s out there. And #11 makes the short list you reference above.
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Tim:
And I'd say it fares poorly against the hole you allude to. To each his own. My point anyway isn't to jab at you, but rather to share the enlightenment I only gained today... and that is that considering a hole in context - that is how it fits in with the course as a whole - seems to me to me more important that how it stands on its own outside of that context. I never really thought of things this way until today.
I can wait for #6. I just hope I get to a computer in time to catch the discussion.
;)
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Tim:
And I'd say it fares poorly against the hole you allude to. To each his own. My point anyway isn't to jab at you, but rather to share the enlightenment I only gained today... and that is that considering a hole in context - that is how it fits in with the course as a whole - seems to me to me more important that how it stands on its own outside of that context. I never really thought of things this way until today.
I can wait for #6. I just hope I get to a computer in time to catch the discussion.
;)
By jabs, I wasn't referring to your comments on the hole. I was referring to the grief over the consolidated thread concept. I'm pleased with it despite protests.
You have my word that I won't post #7 until you have sufficient time to weigh in on #6 and the conversation dies down.
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I played #5 into a fierce wind and hit DRIVER!
Charlie,
I've only played #5 into the wind as well and it's a tough hole with a driver or 3 wood in your hand...
I think the #5 greensite and contouring is another example of the fine work at Pacific Dunes. I like #5 a lot more than #14. One beef I have re PD is that 14 seems like a shorter version of 5 playing in the same direction, and I find #5 much more interesting. It falls at a nice time in the round for a par 3 and as the only par 3 on the front nine flows nicely with what precedes and follows it.
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I love #5. I think it's one of the best par-3s I've ever played. There are so many options and every time I go there I learn of others. Two years ago a guy who joined us for the round skulled his tee shot left and around the back of the front left mound and (I thought) right into the bunker. I figured it was dead until it inched its way up to ten feet. I've played off the mound intentionally but never around it. I doubt he could pull that off again in 200 balls but maybe it's a good play... I'm too chicken to give it a try!
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I'm going to be in Montana the next three days with my wife (yay!) and I'm not likely to look in here during that time, so I thought this would be a good place to include a VERY little-known fact about Pacific Dunes.
In the routing that Mike Keiser approved in November 1999, the fourth, fifth and sixth holes were all different than they are today. I decided to make the change between November and January.
Number four would originally have been a short par-3 from today's back tee to a green just across the chasm, by the ladies' tee.
Number five would have been a short par 4 with the tee set back and to the left of the green just described, and its green in the same place as today.
Number six would have taken off from near #5 tee, to its current green site, playing about 390 yards on the dogleg. The ground of the current fifth would not have been used.
All of this looked pretty good out in the walk-through, but when I came back home to draw it on the map [I hadn't drawn this version before we walked it, because I only came up with it the night before], it just didn't fit well. With the tailwind, the fourth would just have been an exercise in hitting a short iron and watching it bounce to the back of the green, and the fifth would have been almost driveable. Most of all, though, I hated the thought of not using the ground where #5 sits today ... it was a beautiful little valley of dune grass with no gorse in sight, which made it a rare oasis before the gorse fire.
The other reason that we had avoided that area was that Mr. Keiser was uncomfortable with hole #6 as a very short par-4 of around 290 yards. He just didn't see what was going to make it an exciting hole -- to his defense, it was buried in gorse and you couldn't see much of it other than the green site. I had drawn that hole on my original plan before walking the site -- it's one of four which wound up making the final cut, along with #11 and #16 and the green site for #10, which I'll explain next week. But it almost didn't make it, until I realized that the routing as approved had some flaws.
I did send Mike the two versions of the routing and told him I liked the current version better, but he was uncertain, since he had walked it the other way. So, when Jim Urbina and I got out there in early January to start construction, we discussed the situation, and we agreed that Mike would never see the merits of #5 in the dunegrass, unless we went ahead and showed him what it could be. So ... the first hole we built at Pacific Dunes was the one Mike hadn't approved. :) We figured we could always erase our work if Mike didn't like it. When he came out two weeks into construction, he liked it, and we were off to the races.
We solved Mike's concerns on #6 by building the tee a little farther back than I had originally drawn, in a crowded triangle between 5 and 9.
That's the kind of stuff you'll find in my book if it ever gets to print.
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Tom - Great segue to #6.
This whole thread probably would have never existed if you had published your book on time instead of continuing to build golf courses. Consider this the interactive cliff notes version with my pictures instead of yours.
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#6 is a par 4. An amazing par 4.
316 from the black tee
288 from the green tee (though on my visits it seems like this yardage has been a little closer to the black tee)
I'm going to let the pictures do most of the talking here. The view from the tee is REALLY cool. Another wide open fairway. PLENTY of room to the left, which is exactly shere you don't want to be. Before you commit to the open left side, take a really good, hard look at the giant bunker supporting the green. Keep in mind that you are also approaching the green at its narrowest from that angle, and you've got an abrupt fall-off on the back side of the green.
Amazingly, Alan Gard has pulled this very approach shot (from left and from WAY left) multiple times. It seems like he can stick the green from anywhere. Not possible with my game.
You definitely want to challenge the right as much as possible. The bunkers on the right can come into play with a shot that is not struck perfectly, particularly with the cross wind. A great tee shot can leave you with a bump-and-run up the hill with the full length of the green as your target.
Remember to make a mental note of the green and the pin location as you are teeing off on #3 - you get a great preview from there.
As noted, I had trouble selecting my photos for this one, so you get plenty this evening...
Here's the view from the tee focusing on the field of play
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD6Teewide2.jpg)
Here's the wider view of the surrounds from the tee. You can see the upper fairway for #9 in the top right corner of this photo.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD6Teewide.jpg)
And of course the view from the tee in the fog. I wouldn't wish this one on the first time player!! Fortunately, we had been around several times before we faced this challenge.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD6TeeFog.jpg)
A couple views of the approach from the right side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-6Approach.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD6Approachwide.jpg)
A view of the looming bunker guarding the left side (also taken from the right side as I don't recall ever playing this hole from the left)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-6Bunker.jpg)
And that same view in the fog
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD6ApproachFog.jpg)
The green is right behind this thing, I promise!
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-ARGhittingfromthe6bunker.jpg)
Standing on the edge to demonstrate the scale
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-Timin6bunker.jpg)
The preview of the green from #3 tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-6Greenfrom3Tee.jpg)
The green as viewed from the front right
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD6Greenwide.jpg)
The green from the drop-off behind
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD6Greenwide2.jpg)
One of my personal favorites of the green in the fog
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD6GreenFog.jpg)
I will probably allow two good days of commentary here before proceeding with #7 unless everyone runs out of things to say.
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Tim -
From your experiences on the 6th, how do you play this hole?
Mike
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Mike,
I only carry the ball about 190 so going over the right side bunker is a real challenge that I have to try. After that it is avoid the big bunker at all costs. The hole location of the day provides the proper strategy.
As for the rest of the guys I play with, just egg 'em on with trash.
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Into the wind, tee the ball low and fade it over the right bunker, leaving a 50-90 yard shot straight into the length of the green. I own this hole.
The Tommy Naccarato strategy would be as follows. Aim tee shot anywhere. Then purposely hit second shot into front left bunker, which ends all strategic considerations until the 7th tee.
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Tim -
From your experiences on the 6th, how do you play this hole?
Mike
Poorly?
Seriously, in my first 8 tries I had never made par on this hole. I had almost always made bogey, with a couple worse scores mixed in as well. I've never been left. I've never been in that giant bunker. I have been in the bunker on the right after a few mis-hits off the tee. I have very frequently been off the back side of the green, which is really probably not a lot better than the giant bunker. At least twice I have hit a shot from behind that has run back down to my feet due to poor execution. On my 9th try, I skipped par all-together and made birdie, which was very satisfying. I hit a spectacular drive and had a 50-75 yard bump shot up the hill. I've still never made a par here. The other guys in my group have all made plenty of pars. It doesn't seem to matter if they approach from the left or the right.
To me, this hole plays much more difficult than the oft-complained about #14 at Bandon Trails. I this one better than #14 at trails, but with the short distance, touch approach, and slim landing areas from the wrong angle I don't see why that one gets panned and this one gets praised. I think they are both great holes.
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This is my favorite hole on the course and one of my favorite holes anywhere. There are just so many options and so many different things can happen for such a short hole. I have seen a first timer stripe his drive at the green, watch it bound up the hill and roll up to a foot for a tap in eagle. The best part was his expression as he looked behind the green and his comment "Wow, if I would have known what was behind this green I would not have taken that line so confidently". I have also seen a player who shot 6 under on the other 17 holes have to pick up because he simply could not get out of the short right bunker after placing his drive in there. This hole is the perfect example of the great short par 4 hole that I love so much and I always get excited walking up the stairs from the 5th green to the 6th tee.
The best play is anything down the right side over the bunker in the side of the dune. The hole makes you want to hit it down the left but there is actually quite a bit of room to the right and that gives by far the best angle as long as you can get it over the bunker. Into a strong wind this can be a challenge and the drive must be hit pure. My favorite play is a drive over the bunker and then a bump and run 5 iron from 50- 75 yards up onto the green.
Simply a great hole.
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One of my favorites. I think it is interesting to compare this one to the 14th on BT. Both have small difficult greens. This hole is superior because the advantage of a tee ball to the right is huge because of the shape of the green and the giant bunker on the left. Nonetheless, many big numbers on this hole.
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Tim,
Do you have any photos from the right or right rear of the green showing the scale of the drop-off that awaits if you miss right/long? I think this is the one thing missing from your photo essay of the sixth (otherwise it is fantastic!). For someone who has never played the hole, if you miss your approach right (or long if you're coming in from the left side of the hole), you're ball will plummet down into a collection area. Your next shot will be looking into a 15 foot wall of shaved fairway, with the pin on the skyline above, and absolute death if you miss long again (you know this because you saw it on you walk up to the hole in the first place). This is one place you really don't want to be. Don't give it enough , and the ball will be back at your feet; give it too much, and you'll be left with a harder shot than the one you currently face.
Awesome hole (also a potential round buster)
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Quite possibly the greatest short par four on earth. It's spectacular on its own and it also fits perfectly into the context of the course as a whole. The options in terms of ways to play it strategically are numerous, and the standard of execution required to have success is very high as well. It's thrilling, maddening, challenging, awe-inspiring, all in one.
Yes this hole CAN be a round ruiner, but the really cool thing is it really never HAS to be... If one has the discipline and patience and can make the ego check to play it very conservatively, it can always be a very easy five. Iron off tee, iron laid up short, putt on, two more putts after that. The more daring one plays it, the higher the potential score can be... as well as the lower, of course.
It does have a nearby cousin in #14 Trails. But 6 PD is a superior golf hole for one good reason, I think: the green on each is very small, and a very tough target to hit from anywhere, but particularly from the wrong place (left side on PD, right side on BT). But once ON the green, one has a fighting chance at PD, whereas the fun kinda just begins at BT. Don't get me wrong - I am one of the few and proud who really likes #14 BT - I just find #6 PD to be superior.
For Charlie D - play it at least one more time and at least LOOK at the left side. These pictures are fantastic, but as is the nature of all photography, they flatten things... the left bunker is a monster and a pitch from below it has to be among the most difficult and scariest pitches one can face in this game. You did play it your one time the smart and skillful way... but methinks ignorance is bliss in your case. Get down there on the left, and you'll know. Miss the green to the right, you'll know more. This is a truly GREAT golf hole.
TH
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Tim, Tom, and others:
This is probably the most-discussed hole among the 54 at Bandon, from what I can tell. I'm interested in distances from tees (let's say the green tees at @ 290 yds) to the two main features -- the yawning bunker left and the fairway bunker right. And how does prevailing winds (even in different seasons) come into play?
My own sense in how to play this hole, with my lousy 18-handicap game, would be to aim at the top of the large bunker left (at the two tallest trees back-left of the green) and fade a drive into the FW landing area, hoping to avoid fading too much into the right fairway bunker, and having the ball roll into a right-side position on the fairway for an approach shot where the green opens up.
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Phil:
It's most againstly but a little across from the left in summer; dead down-wind in winter. Each wind presents its own challenges. In winter it's easy to get frisky and think about driving it close to or on the green... but the penalties for failure are stiffer as no one wil be able to hold a down-wind pitch on that tiny green. In summer the tee shot is tougher but the pitch is easier. This again to me is part of the genius of the hole....
In any case this schematic can show you the distances more or less:
http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/pacific_hole6.cfm
The first right bunker is pretty close to the tee. The proper play is really OVER that - as you see there's a lot of room between it and the next bunker.. and the angle from there is optimal. Even the rough over there - which is pretty sparse - is way better than going left.
So your plan to play it works great, I think! Just don't miss left. You will have no prayer going over that bunker.
Note one more thing - if one is to try to get close to the green, one has to challenge the gaping left bunker... it's kind of a hogback fairway up near the green, falling off on both sides...
TH
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Tom:
Thanks -- I'm really struck by how Doak and others really took into account prevailing winds, even at different times of the year, in their routing of the course, and incorporating varying design features into holes to account for them.
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Tom:
Thanks -- I'm really struck by how Doak and others really took into account prevailing winds, even at different times of the year, in their routing of the course, and incorporating varying design features into holes to account for them.
That is genius, isn't it? Oh hell, maybe it's not Steve Pieracci's profession (rocket science) but I know I sure as hell would have a damn hard time figuring how to make a course work in a place like Bandon, with two very different prevailing winds. Seems some sacrifices would always have to be made but I sure can't see any at PD. Each hole seems to work great in each wind... 6 is just one great example.
TH
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If we're going to speak of the hole in terms of "fairness" if there is such a thing I think this hole works just fine. Even if you play it very conservative, iron off the tee, layup out right of the green, short pitch to the green, its not a tough 5 at all.
This really adds to the genius of the hole because if you get aggressive on eithe the tee or approach shot, the hole can be a round wrecker, but if you respect it and say no worse than a 5, this is very doable.
Like Phil, I'm just a lousy 18-capper as well, and while the hole was very demanding it didn't seem to be too difficult.
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Tom - I did take in the scale of the bunker left. That is why I layed up with my wedge shot just short of the green.
Maybe it is the style of golf I play which tends to be conservatively play for pars on most holes (my friends all tell me how boring that is) but none of them seem to score as well. ;) Or maybe it was because that was when I was hitting it the poorest so I was focused on my swing at that moment. (I think I mentioned this on another post I started regarding over and under-rated holes at Bandon). Whatever it was I think my strategy on that hole would almost always be drive it over the right bunker, but try not to hit enough club to reach the trouble left or right and then play to the green. If I got out of position I would try to play to the front of the green for either a good four or and easy five. If I hit my drive how I wanted to I would be more aggressive with the approach.
If I were playing the course with time to mess around I would love to spend about an hour or more just messing with all of the potential shots from about 75 yards and in you could have here. I acknowledge the genius of the hole but from a competitive and scoring standpoint I am going to avoid/simplify it as best I can...
Charlie: that all makes great sense, and I can understand that it does seem simple to you. Yours is the best strategy, and like on darn near all golf holes, the best strategy does become very apparent relatively quickly if one is smart. As I recall the gals in the Curtis Cup played it pretty much as you say. But remember EXECUTION comes into this. You still have to pull off the shots. And that's more what I meant:l... let's talk after you unexpectedly pull a tee shot left, or miss the green to the right, and then the reality of what can happen really strikes you. Ignorance is indeed bliss in this respect.
But back to the strategic choices... have you played it in winter wind or with no wind or at any other time when driving the green becomes oh so very tempting? I know, you play cautiously, so perhaps that would never enter into the equation for you. But man when one is sitting on that tee, and the wind combined with firm conditions means that really in effect only a 240 or so yard shot means an easy two putt for a three and a fighting chance at a two - with a cautious play meaning even in the best of results a difficult down-wind pitch to a tiny target, well... that becomes tough to resist for many. And then the fun really begins.
You did hit on another part also - the variety of shots around that green after imperfect shots is nearly infinite.
Re aesthetics, no way. In fact I find it among the MOST beautiful. And for Kalen's benefit, note the ocean is really nowhere in sight unless one looks backwards.
TH
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I love the idea of strategy on a golf hole but for the most part, don't you as a golfer, usually have only 1 way to play the hole that is best for your game?
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As for the approach shot into this green, what is the consensus of people in here if you have to pick a side to miss on. I don't think many will advocate missing left of short as they are both pretty much death.
I missed my approach just a hair short from the right side and it rolled a fair way back down the hill.
Missing long certainly didn't look as bad as missing short or left. Is missing right pretty much the best place to miss because at least then you have the length of the green behind you for error? Missing long with a winter wind seems to be the play because at least then you are chipping back up the hill into the wind. Ditto for missing right in the summer wind.
Any stories from folks who either missed short in the massive bunker or long over the green? How were the recoveries and what did you end up doing? I'd like to think if I got in that massive bunker left that I would just chip out sideways.
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I love the idea of strategy on a golf hole but for the most part, don't you as a golfer, usually have only 1 way to play the hole that is best for your game?
Damn right you do. The hard part is having the discipline to do it...
But again, a cool part of this hole is that one way is going to change based on wind, how one feels, what score one needs, etc. - likely a lot more than damn near any other golf hole.
TH
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TH - Interesting that you find it to be one of the most beautiful...I suspected as much. I thought it seems stark looking off the tee, but then when I saw Tim's picture I wasn't sure of my memory of the hole.
So far, I have only played in a winter wind. At the time I wasn't thinking of hitting the green and in fact hit such a poor tee shot I was in the fairway bunker. I would probably try to drive the green if possible and then take my medicine if I screwed up. I think when I go in 10 days driving the green probably won't be an option...
I also agree about the execution aspect. Believe me if I am much better at know how to play a hole than actually accomplishing it. The three guys I am going to Bandon with do not frequent this site, so the first time through I am going to smile when they are all happy hitting their drives safely down the left side...
Love it! Yep, let them see those acres of room to the left and play "safe." The smile will be a wide one.
Summer wind the FIRST fairway bunker becomes problematic... thus changing the equation again....
TH
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I love the idea of strategy on a golf hole but for the most part, don't you as a golfer, usually have only 1 way to play the hole that is best for your game?
Good question and the answer may be yes but this hole presents a contrast between what you want to do and what you should do which plays on the mind. Also the answer as to what you should do downwind is not that obvious until you have played it a few times.
I played the hole downwind 3 times. The first time, I tried to drive the green, wound up in the bunker left and made an 8. The 2nd time, I tried to play right, hooked it left, chunked it in the bunker and made an 8. The third time I finally convinced myself to hit it right but still made a 5.
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I love the idea of strategy on a golf hole but for the most part, don't you as a golfer, usually have only 1 way to play the hole that is best for your game?
Mike,
I'm not so sure--I think on a course like Pacific Dunes, the wind can dramatically change how you approach a hole.
Downwind (I seem to have had that wind most of the time even though I've only been to Bandon in the June-September time frame), my preferred play on #6 is to drive the ball between the green and the far bunkers to the right, leaving a fairly flat chip or even a putt to the green. I've birdied the hole a couple of times this way. You may not have to hit driver because you don't want to go past the green, which will leave you with a more severe upslope for your 2nd. Against the wind, you might want to play for a full wedge shot into the green. You might even want to go quite a bit right, over by #8, to improve your angle.
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TH - Interesting that you find it to be one of the most beautiful...I suspected as much. I thought it seems stark looking off the tee, but then when I saw Tim's picture I wasn't sure of my memory of the hole.
So far, I have only played in a winter wind. At the time I wasn't thinking of hitting the green and in fact hit such a poor tee shot I was in the fairway bunker. I would probably try to drive the green if possible and then take my medicine if I screwed up. I think when I go in 10 days driving the green probably won't be an option...
I also agree about the execution aspect. Believe me if I am much better at know how to play a hole than actually accomplishing it. The three guys I am going to Bandon with do not frequent this site, so the first time through I am going to smile when they are all happy hitting their drives safely down the left side...
Love it! Yep, let them see those acres of room to the left and play "safe." The smile will be a wide one.
Summer wind the FIRST fairway bunker becomes problematic... thus changing the equation again....
TH
Man you guys are straight cruel. Not even a word of advice?
Or is it because they are your friends you'll let them hang themselves. ;D
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I love the idea of strategy on a golf hole but for the most part, don't you as a golfer, usually have only 1 way to play the hole that is best for your game?
Yes, and I generally play every hole exactly the same at Pacific Dunes. However, number 6 offers some variety. In the winter, if there's a significant south wind, I'll try to blast one at the green here.
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Kalen - oh I'd try to give advice - I always do. My friends just don't listen, as I'd guess Charlie's don't. Thus we smile knowingly and the I told you so's are sweet.
TH
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I love the idea of strategy on a golf hole but for the most part, don't you as a golfer, usually have only 1 way to play the hole that is best for your game?
I think you can have many strategic options available to you, and it is up to you to figure out which one is best for you that day. That is one of the greatest attractions about the game--putting all the variables into the computer and choosing among the options available to you.
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I'd have to look at my cards for actual scores from my two summer rounds but I remember thinking "beautiful hole, bitch of a second shot if I'm left". None of my group challenged the right bunker, and the further left one was the harder the approach. I never got comfortable thinking I could keep the ball on the green when approaching from the left -- is it possible (esp. for a mid-high HC?)
Guess I generally agree that I could (should) have laid up short right and then had an at-worse bogey -- but where's the fun in that? For such a short risk-reward hole I would prefer a potentially drivable green vs. barely carrying the bunker.
All-in I really loved the look from the tee but found it (for me) harder than I expected/wanted/needed. Humbug golf!
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Charlie - 100% agreement re all of that. BT 14 is obvious, 6 PD is more of a learned experience.
Our friends tend to work the same also. And yeah, re advice, I only give it if asked. My friends just tend to ask and then disagree.
TH
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I'll save the topic from rolling to the second page, but is the 6th a better match play or stroke play hole?
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I'll save the topic from rolling to the second page, but is the 6th a better match play or stroke play hole?
It works for both quite well. I think it's a superior match play hole however, because the very best players are likely not going to take many risks on it, and can play it for a simple cautious four pretty easily. That being said, a slip in execution makes all things possible. Compare to match play, where if one gets it on or near green the pressure really goes on one's opponent... and vice versa if one lays up and opponent gets near green.... man in high winds also a 6 or worse could win the hole... I find that to be pretty cool.
TH
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I asked the question earlier but perhaps it got lost in the posts.
How bad is it to miss the green going long? Worse than missing right? I think left or short is obviously pretty bad but wondered if intentionally missing long in a winter wind is the play.
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I asked the question earlier but perhaps it got lost in the posts.
How bad is it to miss the green going long? Worse than missing right? I think left or short is obviously pretty bad but wondered if intentionally missing long in a winter wind is the play.
Kalen - it depends on where exactly you miss. Long and left, along the axis of the green, is not that bad of a miss at all, assuming it doesn't go TOO long. Anything besides that means down the bank, and that is not a happy place. Of course anything long is also a lot better than anything in the bunker, I think, because not many balls tend to stay at the top of the bunker (relatively simple shot) but rather fall back down to the bottom (and death be to ye there).
It's also always going to depend on angle. God help you coming in from the left in winter wind. Tiger and Jesus combined could not stop a ball from there... so the best play then becomes punting it short and right... which is tough to make one's self do - ie play damn near sideways.
TH
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Kalen,
Missing long and to the right is not optimal because the slope up to the green becomes much steeper as you go from the front of the green to the back on the right side. That said, anything to the right off the tee is better than anything to the left. With the wind at your back, I like to play a driver or 3 wood just to the right of the green. You have a pretty flat pitch/chip/putt from there.
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Tim - curious - how do you play it with wind against? Does the shorter right fairway bunker become problematic for you as it does for me - thus making one play farther left than he'd like?
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Tom,
I'm not especially long off the tee, but I don't remember the shorter bunker being that much of a factor, maybe because in the afternoon, we tend to move up to the green tees to compensate for the high winds (and give ourselves a little break). I do remember playing in a threesome in the afternoon when the wind was very strong against and to the right. We all hit it way right, past but well to the right of the shorter bunker. We assumed we'd all be dead. Not so; in fact, you have a great angle from over there (to the right of the dune) and, while there was some rough, it was the wispy variety.
I see your point though--I can see that bunker pushing you to the left and then your margin for error on the drive becomes very small. Even with the wind against, I don't like the idea of trying to hold the green from the left side. That left bunker is death. I've been in there once and thought, "I don't care where the ball ends up, I'm getting it out of here." Well, 3 shots and one rainstorm later, I did just that.
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Tim - our experiences with that death bunker are sadly similar.
Re the shorty bunker on the right, well... I just do remember at least thinking I better hit this solid or I'm gonna go in that. Maybe it's just bad memory. But you're right in any case, there is a lot of room on the right, the rough isn't that bad, and it is a great angle. That's something one figures out from experience as well...
I'm trying to think of a wind or a reason to intentionally play to the left. I don't think there really is one... although with a wind against and from the right, a great wedge player might just rip one safely toward the bunker (ie left) figuring it's a no-risk tee shot and an approach he can handle. But other than that, I have to figure if one ends up left it's a missed tee shot - but it doesn't take that much of a miss also to be faced with going over that bunker...
TH
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Yeah, for a really great wedge player, this shouldn't be that hard of a hole (nor should BT #14, for that matter). I'm not that player and have to try to find a way to give myself an angle where I can hit some kind of low chip or putt up the hill on #6. BTW, I agree that PD #6 is a superior hole to BT #14 (although I too like that hole a lot) because of the way this hole reveals itself over multiple plays and because it's a little less severe.
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Yeah, for a really great wedge player, this shouldn't be that hard of a hole (nor should BT #14, for that matter). I'm not that player and have to try to find a way to give myself an angle where I can hit some kind of low chip or putt up the hill on #6. BTW, I agree that PD #6 is a superior hole to BT #14 (although I too like that hole a lot) because of the way this hole reveals itself over multiple plays and because it's a little less severe.
Tim - you and I could not possibly see this more exactly the same. And I am not the world's greatest wedge player either.
I have had that shot from below the bunker and I wanted to cry for my mommy.
;)
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Another strategy. Once again, power fade up the right side to 50 yards from center of the green, to a short pin. Awkward lie leaves ball well above feet, making 45 yard pitch shot seem impossible. Commence putting from that spot.
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John -oh hell yeah - I can't reach the green unless I get a real turbo-wind behind, so that's pretty much where I try to get to if I don't punt and layup farther right... and darn right I putt from that spot.
TH
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The left bunker immediately grabs the eye from the tee, burning a hole in your skull that stays until the ball drops in the cup. Downwind, it is the dominant feature to avoid if trying to drive the green. On the approach downwind from the right, it reminds you that whatever your choice of shot...it must be executed almost perfectly. Even though you may not see it, death looms large.
I truly believe that this hole is less difficult when playing into the breeze.
Either way, in either wind, I think the best option is to aim for the flag on #2 and try to snuggle as close to the far right bunker as possible. The approach from there seems to be the friendliest.
In other words, I agree with Tim...right is right.
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Wyatt - there's no doubt that right is right, and I'd also agree it is easier into the wind in terms of execution.... but unless one is super long, only in downwind is getting near to or on to the green realistic... thus the temptation only exists in a downwind situation.
Thus I think it's more fun downwind... it's harder and the choices are more vexing. Into the wind it's more or less all about execution.
Whaddya think?
TH
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Quite possibly the greatest short par four on earth. It's spectacular on its own and it also fits perfectly into the context of the course as a whole. The options in terms of ways to play it strategically are numerous, and the standard of execution required to have success is very high as well. It's thrilling, maddening, challenging, awe-inspiring, all in one.
Tom,
I like the 6th alot, but methinks you doth gush too much. This premature ejaculation leaves you little room for praise of even the 16th hole at the subject golf course, which not only "fits perfectly...numerous options...maddening" etc. but is a better short par 4, imo.
Last week I got to play the 18th at Inverness, a Ross masterpiece shortie whereon two major championships have been decided and which might be the equal or better of both of these.
Calm down laddie, you'll give yourself a rash or something...
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Having played this hole twice in my life, I would have to say it is the hardest short par 4 I ever played. I was fortunate to play with Ari Techner and he knows the course very well and he told me the smart play up the right side. I hit a perfect drive and what I thought was a good second shot. I walk to the green to find a ranger dressed in orange standing 30 yards behind the green looking at my ball :( I hit another shot that I thought was perfect and it runs off the front. I learned that this green is not very deep and veryyy firm. The next time i really screwed myself and went left. With no chance of holding the green I sucked it up and went over the green to a wall of hell. I dont think i ever played a hole that looks so easy yet play so hard. What a great hole!!
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One digression to #4 (stupid work travel is interfering with my giving this thread the reverence it deserves). The setting is clearly special. One can easily get lost in the setting. I think this story illustrates this. One playing partner once walked up to a ball in the fairway. He quickly took his practice swings, and proceded to hook (he is a lefthander) the ball into the Pacific. He was angry for a second until I shouted to him that his ball was in fact further up the fairway and that he had knocked my $4 Nike into the ocean. He walked up to the other ball, no apology but just a shrug to me, and played away. Not really relevant to the thread, other than the fact that this was in fact our threadstarter, Tim Bert (and for once he out drove me!). And to be fair, he did find an errant shot I had hit off the #2 tee into no man's land near #7 from a previous round to, in a way, pay me back for the ball of mine he sent to Davy Jones' Locker.
Onto #6. Great hole from start to finish. As Tim notes, I have more than once played up the left side only to hit a lucky approach to give me a reasonable birdie look (of course, I never have made the putt). It certainly wasn't a strategic play; if you play with me you'll know that most days not even God knows where my tee shot is going.
Tim was also nice enough not to note the last time I played the hole where I made an 8 or 9 and actually fell into the bunker by the green...but still had fun doing it.
I think this hole creates the likelihood for many "stories" (both good and bad), which speaks a lot to the options provided by the design.
I also like how you are near so many other holes here. You get a good look at #2, #3, #7, #8, #9 and #12...#6 seems to be the center of attention. It's neat when you are out there with all the other groups taking their turn, but it is even more special to me on that 3rd round of the day when you have the place to yourself. Very tranquil.
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Quite possibly the greatest short par four on earth. It's spectacular on its own and it also fits perfectly into the context of the course as a whole. The options in terms of ways to play it strategically are numerous, and the standard of execution required to have success is very high as well. It's thrilling, maddening, challenging, awe-inspiring, all in one.
Tom,
I like the 6th alot, but methinks you doth gush too much. This premature ejaculation leaves you little room for praise of even the 16th hole at the subject golf course, which not only "fits perfectly...numerous options...maddening" etc. but is a better short par 4, imo.
Last week I got to play the 18th at Inverness, a Ross masterpiece shortie whereon two major championships have been decided and which might be the equal or better of both of these.
Calm down laddie, you'll give yourself a rash or something...
I haven't played PD but I have played Inverness and there is no way imo that the 18th is in the same league because for a short par 4 it is totally undrivable due to the bunkers that ring the front of the green. It's a 3 wood flip wedge every time. There are really no options.
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Steve,
Re: Inverness' 18th, If you haven't played PD, then you can't really compare, but I beg to differ about a couple of things. First of all, having infinite options does not by itself make a hole great. How many options does one golfer need?
Second, we had four completely different tee shots on the day I played the Inverness hole, yielding one birdie, two pars, and a bogey, suggesting there is more than one way to skin the cat.
Third, at the 325 yard tees we played, I'm sure some lengthy golfers would consider hitting driver. Then they might even find the bunker from which Bob Tway won his major when he holed his recovery shot, and might even make a 2. Payne Stewart also holed a shot from that bunker on the same day, so it's possible I suppose to make that ploy a strategic option.
Fourth, having only played it once, I'm sure a thoughtful golfer could consider "numerous" options for different pin placements, course conditions, match conditions, etc. 3-wood, flip wedge every time? C'mon Steve, have some fun with the hole next time.
I guess my point is that if you put 100 knowledgeable, well-traveled golfers on #6 at PD, many would say it's a good hole, some would say it's great, and only one, if he were Tom Huckaby, would say it's the best short par 4 on the planet. And he's played Cypress Point!
And Steve, methinks you doth sell Inverness' 18th short.
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Talking about the worst places to miss, I had the good fortune to miss in the two worst places in the same round. We didn't take caddies so I thought I could hit a good drive and have it chase up on or just short on the approach. I smashed a perfect drive and was waiting for it to bounce up towards the green, but instead it bounced 90 degrees to the left and ended up short of the left bunker. I was about three feet away from my dad's half snapped 3-wood.
The bunker is truly terrifying and there was no way I was going to land there so my second shot hit the green and ran about 30 yards over. Chipped back, but was scared of going back towards that bunker so I didn't make it. I tried to putt from there, but left it just short of the top of the hill and it rolled back down. Three to get down from there. A seven on a hole that I thought would be simple from the tee. Left is definitely the worst place to be because you will probably end up being over anyway.
I loved this hole. Not just a risk/reward, but also a shot placement hole. I can't wait to play it again.
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Eric:
OK, greatest short par 4 on the planet may be stretching things. But I feel very safe in saying it's on the short list. And you know what? 16 is also. I think in the end 16 barely misses out due to divot-filled collection areas, but that's a small quibble. In any case, we'll discuss that when we get to it.
Inverness 18 is a great call; I have no issues with it being on the short list also. Others might be 10 Riviera, 7 and 8 Sand Hills, 9 Cypress, heck that's just off the top of my head. In any case I truly do believe 6 PD stands mightily with these.
Great post anyway - it did give me a chuckle!
TH
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Tom,
I agree that the hole is more interesting downwind. I like the fact that it makes gorillas truly think about what club to hit from the tee. With a strong wind behind, the big hitter actually has to consider leaving a wood in the bag because of the severity encountered by hitting it past the green right.
To most that subscribe to the bomb and gauge gameplan it is difficult to convince them to grab an iron on the tee of a short par 4.
WH
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Tom,
I agree that the hole is more interesting downwind. I like the fact that it makes gorillas truly think about what club to hit from the tee. With a strong wind behind, the big hitter actually has to consider leaving a wood in the bag because of the severity encountered by hitting it past the green right.
To most that subscribe to the bomb and gauge gameplan it is difficult to convince them to grab an iron on the tee of a short par 4.
WH
Right on! Hadn't thought of that also and you're right... in a downwind that's enough for short-knocker me to get it close to the green, truly long hitters would need to hit iron because long is wrong for sure. And getting them to do that would take mental toughness for sure.... Add this to reasons for the hole's greatness!
TH
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Is long really wrong though in a winter wind?
Its seems like it would be an acceptable miss because you are chipping back up the hill into the wind. Sure there is the danger of not reaching the green but it kinda takes going long into that bunker out of play.
I would also think I would prefer chipping on to the green from long as opposed to being 70 yards short of the green and trying to hold it downwind which has got to be just about impossible.
Kalen
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Is long really wrong though in a winter wind?
Its seems like it would be an acceptable miss because you are chipping back up the hill into the wind. Sure there is the danger of not reaching the green but it kinda takes going long into that bunker out of play.
I would also think I would prefer chipping on to the green from long as opposed to being 70 yards short of the green and trying to hold it downwind which has got to be just about impossible.
Kalen
Short and to the right is better than long - in fact that's optimal. Short and to the left is not. And as discussed before, long and down in the valley to the right is never a happy place. From there, going back over the green and in the bunker is absolutely NOT out of play... wow I have seen it done numerous times.
SO... in the end I do think long is wrong in general. It's not a good miss. It's a better miss than short and left, true. But it's not somewhere you want to default to. Thus the choice for the big bombers - the much better miss is short and right.
TH
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My favorite hole on the course. I think #16 is less about options than execution so I prefer #6. On #6 you have club selection options off the tee and then a myriad of options for the second shot if you hit it right (and left is dead).
I've only played the hole downwind. After reading on here about Tommy Naccarato's strategy for playing the hole (hit it into the left greenside bunker on purpose and then see what you can do), I consciously hit my drive into that bunker the second time around PD. Try it (at least once)--it's a challenge worth seeking out!
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Thanks again for all the posts & pics Tim. Getting to read all our responsese & also the man himself, Tom Doak - pretty cool IMHO.
Going against the crowd a little here - I think 6 is a good short par 4, but I would not be writing home about it. I guess I have only played it in one wind, and its just drive out the right, and wedge onto the green. I am used to playing links golf so it holds no huge challenge for me. I did like the fact that I (stupidly) played down the left, to the fairway that you can see, and it was only when a playing partner sliced on WAY right that I realised that that was probably the best angle into the green!
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The 6th is one of those short (which should mean easy) holes which can totally piss you off.
And that's what makes it so great.
I've been in that wretched greenside bunker once and hit probably a 1 in 50 shot out and held the green.
But usually that is utter hell down there.
You really need to rip it over the fairway bunker and approach from the right. I've even been near the 9th tee and it's just fine over there. Hell, you could approach from the 9th fairway even!
What is difficult to accept is perhaps not going for the green if you end up driving out to the left.
But what I love seeing is my playing companions go back and forth across the green. It's painful to watch but somehow gratifying. It's like "there you have it, Tom got 'em!!!"
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I mentioned it on GCA once before, but the most amazing thing to me about the Curtis Cup was watching how easy the sixth hole was for the girls. Absent any temptation to drive the green, it was a simple driver and 75-yard wedge for all of them. I watched four singles matches go through and saw four 3's, three 4's and a 5.
Now a question: when we were building the hole I knew that a lot of players would hit driver but hedge to the right, so I put a bunker in for bad shots to the right, about 40-50 yards from the green. I figured only a really good player could reach it, and if he hit a shot that bad, he deserved the 40-yard bunker shot from hell.
Has anyone ever been in that bunker?
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I believe one of the guys in our group was in that bunker and it wasnt fun for him.
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I've been in that bunker. The smart play for a guy of my meager talents is to forget about trying to reach the green, get yourself just out and play up for a possible one-putt par but more likely a deserved bogey.
A better sand player might go for it but with all the danger behind that green it's a non-starter of an idea for me.
Great hole.
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Tom D - the way the Curtis Cup gals played it was what I was alluding to earlier in the thread - it certainly can be played very simply and easily if one either doesn't have the temptation to get on or close to the green or manages to avoid it. Oh it still takes fine execution, at least on the approach - and those gals are good - but the choices are pretty simple. What's cool is the temptation is there for a lot of other players... thus the quandaries.
And yes, I too have been in that bunker - a driver meant to be just short of the green that was pushed. And "sand shot from hell" describes that adequately. ;)
TH
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... but the most amazing thing to me about the Curtis Cup was watching how easy the sixth hole was for the girls. Absent any temptation to drive the green, it was a simple driver and 75-yard wedge for all of them. I watched four singles matches go through and saw four 3's, three 4's and a 5.
Thank you ...
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Huck,
You and I discussed the 6th a few years back in here. And I'm in complete agreement that it is the best short 4 I have ever played, and one of my favorite holes overall.
I look forward on my next trip to Bandon to playing BT, and Old Mac if open.
But I really look forward to standing on the tee of #6PD, and trying to play this hole correctly. I think I would rather make 4 on this hole by executing the correct shots, than make 3 from the right bunkers (as I nearly did the first attempt here). That to me means its a great hole.
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But Mike my friend, by that simple "thank you" are you implying that the temptation never exists?
It does, believe me.
It does for the recreational player who can hit a ball over 260 yards - which is all it takes to get in a great position to make birdie or even eagle.
So sure, it didn't for these ladies - who remember, played it INTO THE WIND - but I'd love to hear stories about what happened during the various high-level college tournaments that have been played there.
If they universally laid up, I will give up and say the temptation is not a relevant factor in high-level play. But even then remember it sure as heck does exist for a large number of resort players whose egos overextend their games... and hmmmm... isn't that going to mean a large number of players on a daily basis?
In any case, I said all along the hole CAN be played simply and cautiously. It's still going to require at least one very good shot, which to me adds to the greatness. But I sincerely do believe the temptation to get close to the green does exist and is a big part of what puts it into the high echelon of great short par 4s.
TH
ps Andy - great stuff - I too look forward to this hole more than any other.
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TomD,
I was wondering if you would provide some insight as to the genisis of the green complex for 6. Perhaps it was discussed before, but was the top of a dune chopped off to create the green or was it mounded up?
Did you ever 2nd guess its playability while creating it and take a step back and say hole hell, this is turning into quite the challenging green complex?
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Sorry I'm running behind on the holes. I've got a friend in town and we are playing the Member-Guest tournament this weekend.
Fortunately, the 6th place isn't a bad spot to get stuck, and it has generated some great conversation. I'll probably be posting #7 some time Sunday.
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During the winter, when #6 is down wind the play is grip it and rip it. During the summer driving the green isn't really part of the discussion with the normal wind. The Curtis Cup players are a bad example for two reasons IMO; there was no wind to speak of during the event, and the hole was set up too long for them.
If driving the green is within a players capabilities then it would have to be at least considered. The chance of ended up long and right of the green exists with the second from anywhere, so why not be there in one if possible? The chip from there is less menacing when your there in one.
I think its a better hole in the summer when the wind is hard in the players face. The options from the tee increase. I like the fact that the thoughtless 'safe' tee ball down the left is punished. I like telling the first time player who hits one WAY right that not only is it findable, but it might be just short of perfect. Right of the green is also where the bump and run makes SO much sense to many links newbies for the first time. I like #6 very much, enough in fact to call it my favorite hole on the course....
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Being a cheap flogger who only plays Bandon in November-March, Driver down the right side over the short fairway bunker and then bumping up the relatively benign slope of the right side is the only safe way to play #6 for me...
Anywhere right or long within 30 yards of this green is a flat blade shot...I don't have the game to be able to hold this green with any lofted club...I know it, I accept it.
This is one of my favorite holes that I have ever played...but so are almost half of the holes on PD!
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Kalen:
A lot of the green complex on #6 was pretty much there for us. The shelf which runs from #3 tees through to #6 green ended right there, and suggested a green to me. If it hadn't been exactly that narrow I probably would have built it a touch wider, but I wasn't going to mess with a good thing.
Also, the mounds on the left edge of the green were there -- I had anticipated removing them to make a little more green space, but Jim Urbina left them when he roughed in the green, and I realized they were important as a backstop for the bump-and-run shots from the hollow to the right of the green so I left them.
The fall down to the left-hand bunker was also there; we never touched the face of that slope. However, behind that bunker it was even steeper going down off the left side of the green, almost a vertical drop, and my associate Tom Mead insisted that we had to put some fill there so there was someplace for a ball to stop. So, we trucked a bunch of sand over from the ridge left of #6 forward tee, and shaped the background for the big bunker.
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I love this hole. It's pretty much everything I think a short par 4 should be. It is so inviting, so beguiling, so enticing. The day we played was not exactly optimal for trying to drive the green - gale force winds in our face. With no thoughts of driving the green, the wind made it impossible to use anything but a drive. I pulled my drive (D'Oh!!). My pulls usually tend to go quitea bit longer than my normal drives. But with that wind, I still had 140 yards in. I had to hit a FIVE iron which barely and mercifully cleared the massive left bunker. I hesitate to even call that monster a bunker. That dune is probably more apt. The ball rolled off the right edge. I somehow managed to recover for a kick-in par.
Any score was possible after that drive. Divine intervention. My immediate thoughts we of starting a new religion.
We're going back in September and I am hoping for a calm day to make a complete and utter fool of myself. My plan is to overestimate my capabilities and succumb to the siren's song. I think the plan is pretty much perfect. Layup? I should be so strong... I only partially jest. I think that is what makes the hole so magnificent - To stave off any indecision on the tee, I have already accepted the fact that it is going to be impossible for me to play it smartly. I-just-can't-help-myself.
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Tom,
Thanks for the insight as to the 6th green complex. Its a one of a kind green complex and superb to know was created by mothers nature hand for the most part. I can only imagine how much tougher it would have been with a more severe slope in the rear.
What were Keisers thoughts on the hole when you first proposed it? ;D
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could you say #6 is pretty one dimensional?
the only real way (thus one dimensional) to play it for a decent score is lay back out to the right and hope for a flat lie from 80 yards.
- playing left leaves you with a pitch that won't hold the green (or worse in that bunker).
- laying way back leave too long of a shot to hold the green.
- trying to drive the green usually leaves you with a 40 yard shot to green way above you feet which certainly isn't the easiest precision shot.
so 80 yards out to the right is pretty much the only play i saw with a chance for birdie.
just my thoughts. can't wait to talk about #7!
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#7 is a par 4
464 from the black tees
436 from the green tees
Another long hole that can play pretty short in the summer. While I like both holes (#4 and #7) a good deal and I don't pretend to have a better proposal for Tom Doak to have designed or routed his course differently (though we've all tried in our heads, on paper, on this discussion forum, etc) I wish that both of these long two-shotters didn't have to play in almost the same wind. I would have liked to see one long par 4 on the front nine demand two strong shots just to reach the green, though 13 can serve that purpose later in the round. At the same time, I can only imagine how brutal the #4 / #7 combo must play in the winter wind.
My group has tended to have a bit of a "helping" cross wind on #7, which makes it play a bit more narrow than the wide fairway suggests. The tee shot can definitely run through some of the angles on the sides of the fairways as it starts to narrow closer to the hole. With the wind pumping, we've put tee shots pretty much everywhere imaginable on this one. I've seen the hole play as little as driver / wedge for someone that can hit the ball (but that I wouldn't characterize as a bomber.)
The first time I played it, the furry bumps well short of the actual green didn't really catch my eye. I've gotten used to them, though I won't say I love them. I think they make for some interesting recovery shots if the approach isn't well-played. I've seen balls bounce off of them in many directions (including a helpful forward if you catch the correct part of the back side) off of these humps. I've also seen the ball get stuck in the long grass on them. I think I might enjoy them even more if the grass on them were maintained at fairway levels, though I suppose it wouldn't provide the raw, natural feel that currently exists.
In my opinion, the real treat of this hole is around the green. Both the bunkering and the green itself is superb. The green, while it lacks the exaggerated mounds of the 2nd green, has quite a bit of contour in it. All of the bunkers are in play, and there is also a nice fall-off area on the back right where the ball will quickly funnel away from the pin and off the green.
Walking up to the 7th tee from the 6th hole
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-7Tee.jpg)
From the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD7Tee.jpg)
From the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD7Approachwide.jpg)
Two views of the approach from closer to the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD7Approach.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-7Approach.jpg)
A view of the green from the side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD7Greenwide.jpg)
A view of the green complex from the 8th
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-7Green.jpg)
Looking back on the hole. You can see the shaved back right fall-off portion of the green on the left side of this photo.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD7Lookbackwide.jpg)
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I couldn't wait until this hole came up. This is my favorite hole on the property. A fairly benign tee shot due to a fairway that looks to have a small nature valley and plenty of width. The furry knobs makes the green look a lot closer to the player than it really is. The fun on this hole is all around the green. The green on #7 is seriously my favorite green complex in the world. The bunkers cut right into the putting surface much like Royal Melbourne and the green seems to be like an amoeba that basically just fills up the flat areas between all the hazards. Getting back to those back pin placements is really like threading a needle in firm and fast conditions. Truly world class!
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I've only played this hole into the wind and it is very difficult. The good news in my experience is that the wind isn't as strong on this hole as #4 since it's somewhat sheltered. However, for me it's at least 180-220 yards in on the second. My regular PD playing partner often lays up short of the grassy areas on this hole with his second shot because he can't reach. Although there is a lot of stuff around the green, for some reason I don't worry too much about it (maybe because there isn't death to the right like on #4 and I've been able to find spots from which recovery is not that difficult. I've found the recovery shots around #7 are fun and challenging given the varied pin locations that require you to work the ball around. Another very solid green. I think this is the most "traditional" hole on Pacific Dunes, a pretty straightforward and demanding par 4 at least into the wind.
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I too have only played this hole into the winter wind. For me, I find that I have had more success when I did not drive the ball sufficiently to reach the green in regulation. I love the location and design of this entire green/bunker complex maybe more than any hole on the course. It is visually intimidating when you have a long approach which I invariably have in the winter. The green contour itself is wonderful presenting a number of interesting hole locations which demands attention to what surrounds those locations.
It would be interesting to hear from TD how this hole evolved. What did the area around the green look like at the beginning?
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Dan -
I'm interested to hear Tom's comments about the green site as well. Ran's comments on his course review indicate that the green area looked pretty much as it exists today. I'd love to hear expanded commentary on what was created.
From Ran's review - "Though pine trees had to be cleared across the entire fairway, all the land forms around the green complex were there and Doak recognized early on the site's potential."
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The first time I played it, the furry bumps well short of the actual green didn't really catch my eye. I've gotten used to them, though I won't say I love them. I think they make for some interesting recovery shots if the approach isn't well-played. I've seen balls bounce off of them in many directions (including a helpful forward if you catch the correct part of the back side) off of these humps. I've also seen the ball get stuck in the long grass on them. I think I might enjoy them even more if the grass on them were maintained at fairway levels, though I suppose it wouldn't provide the raw, natural feel that currently exists.
The 'Furry Bumps', as you call them, really make the hole for me. The handicapped golfer, even after placing his drive in the left half of the fairway, is faced with a longer iron into this green. The placement of the 'FBs' trick the golfer into thinking he should take plenty of club to carry the trouble, dismissing the fact that said club has very little chance of holding the green downwind. The play is something that lands between the back edge of the 'FBs' and the front edge of the green, regardless of where the pin is. And IMO for many the play is Driver, wedge, wedge regardless of wind direction or pin position. If the 'FBs' where maintained at fairway levels then they wouldn't present such a hazard (both visually and literally), and the hole would lose much of the risk/reward factor.
I will also say that this hole is hands down the hardest on the course day in and day out. When its downish wind guys make big numbers missing the tee ball right and missing their second shots into the green either short, long or in a bunker. When its into the wind making the fairway feels like an accomplishment, and many times the layup is with a fairway wood.
How many other links courses have a hole that is the hardest on the course, regardless of wind direction?
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The feature I like best about the 7th is the shaved fringe areas around the green...Short left contours take you into the deep bunkers, anything short and right takes you to the collection areas for a tough pitch, run-up, texas wedge...For a back pin, I have tried to run into the long mound and have it roll off to the left and back onto the green...unfortunately, my considerate lack of skill got me on the right side of the mound and off to an impossible position to the right of this green...
Having played this hole with both head and tail winds, it is a tricky green whether playing a long club over the Fuzzy Bumps downwind or a short running wedge from just short of the bumps as a third shot into the wind...
Center of the green with correct depth of shot is definately the best target on this green...
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Quite simply, I found this hole to be the most intimidating visually from both the tee and approach.
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One of my favorites. I think it is interesting to compare this one to the 14th on BT. Both have small difficult greens. This hole is superior because the advantage of a tee ball to the right is huge because of the shape of the green and the giant bunker on the left. Nonetheless, many big numbers on this hole.
If you are trying to compare 14 BT to a hole on PD, 16 is the comparison.
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Not sure if Huckaby doesn't have an opinion on #7 or if he just didn't notice the update. Since he missed #4 last Monday and then complained about it after the fact, I thought I'd allow him ample time for commentary.
If #7 doesn't generate any more in-depth discussion today, then I'll post #8 tonight. If the conversation picks up, then I'll hold off on #8 until Wednesday.
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Not sure if Huckaby doesn't have an opinion on #7 or if he just didn't notice the update. Since he missed #4 last Monday and then complained about it after the fact, I thought I'd allow him ample time for commentary.
If #7 doesn't generate any more in-depth discussion today, then I'll post #8 tonight. If the conversation picks up, then I'll hold off on #8 until Wednesday.
Tim - you surely do NOT have to wait for me for any of this. I was bummed I missed #4 because I felt like I had something to say about it. I have little to add about 7. Great hole, tough hole, I prefer 6.
TH
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#8 is a par 4.
400 yards from the black tees
369 from the green tees
This hole got sort of lost in the shuffle for me the first trip out to Oregon. Let's face it - it would be tough for almost any hole to immediately follow #6 and #7 in this line-up. I didn't dislike it, but it felt less spectacular than many of the others on the course. In 2003, it was unofficially tagged as my least favorite hole on the best course I had ever played. I always try to keep an open mind on replays, and this hole has grown on me with each subsequent play.
The tee shot is probably still pretty far down on my list when compared to all the driving holes on the course, but the green complex is simply magnificent. There are few shots more thrilling to me than an apporached that is intentionally aimed away from the hole (or even off the green) with the intent that said shot will end up much closer to the hole. Enter the feeding area off the right side of #8. You can learn about it by accident, but once you understand it as a viable option to attack a right-side pin it becomes a great play. I also enjoy the bunkering around the green, both the one guarding the front as well as the one in the back left, which allows the golfer to putt out given the right lie. If all this weren't enough, the false front on the left side makes approaches even more befuddling!
The 8th tee shot. Perhaps not as thrilling as the previous tee shots on this nine, but the best is yet to come on this hole...
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-8Tee.jpg)
A wide view of the fairway
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD8Approachwide.jpg)
The approach in the fog
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD8ApproachFog.jpg)
And the approach with no fog
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD8Approach.jpg)
A couple views of the wonderful green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-8Green-1.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD8LookbackFog.jpg)
And one final view of the 8th green with the 9th hole "wall of death" guarding the fairway in background. The part of the green in the foreground of this picture is the right side where things funnel to the hole. The front and rear bunkers (on the left and right sides of this picture) are barely visible from this angle.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-8Green.jpg)
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I love this hole for the subtlety of the drive and the green complex. At first glance the drive seems pretty simple but the more you play the hole the more you realize that the tee points you to the right towards the bunkers (in play into the wind for sure) and the trees. There is a ton of room on the left but the hole just seems to point people away from that side. I enjoy the challenge of trying to hit shots that feel uncomfortable to me visually and the drive down the left side of this hole is a great example of that shot. The hole is also pinched on the left side by the dune at about 250y and the treeline that cuts in at about 100y. Depending on the wind either can present a hazard to the player who takes the correct line off the tee.
The green complex is simply one of the finest anywhere. From the right side half punchbowl of sorts to the complete fall away of the left side this green is genius. Every pin placement presents a completely different challenge. Weather its is trying to judge the bounce and pin placement to the blind or semi blind right side, trying to find a way to thread the ball between the nasty front middle bunker and the back bunker when the pin is in the middle of the green or trying to stop the ball on the small left area with fall away on all sides. Much like most of the holes here you really need to play this hole a bunch of times in different winds and especially different pin placements to really appreciate it. Often overlooked on the first or second play, over time this has become one of my favorite holes on the course.
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At the Bay of Dreams in January 06, Tom told me that the 8th at PD was his favorite hole.
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Put me down with Ari on this. I absolutely love 8, and some of it is because one really does have a "whew" drive... that is, in the flow of things, you've come off two ball-busters in 6 and 7 and another right then would be overkill. One stands on 6 tee and thinks "I can hit it anywhere".... but Ari's correct also, the tee does point you too far right... and the small temptation is also to go right, to shorten the hole a little... in any case I find it to be just as Ari says - there's more going on than appears.
And then the green.. so dominated by one smallish bunker... with so many ways to tackle it... I find it to be absolute brilliance.
8 is subtle and one's love for it grows over time. I know it's worked that way for me.
TH
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IMO, the play into a true front cup setting on 8, with windy conditions, is one of the most demanding, fun, and potentially satisfying shots at the resort. That location is essentially crowned in all 4 directions.........left and right the ball trickles into bunkers, left short the ball returns to the fairway, and safely played long one is left with a putt back up to the crown.....it just doesn't get much better!
Tom
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The front left pin on 8 is one of the toughest pins on the resort if your trying to get it close AND keep it on the green. The leave to that pin is short of the green, putting up the false front. The reason its hard is because people can't undertand the sense in not taking enough club to get to the green...
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Great hole that I always enjoyed as a breather hole. After the demanding 7th and the fear of the drive coming on 9, this is a fun hole. The front left pin is one of the hardest to get near and be on the putting surface. I always just played to just short of the green whenever the pin was cut in the front. This lead to many a birdie from off the green. The punchbowl in the back of the green is fun as all get out for putting options.
I miss the giant tree that stood left of the green. It only lasted until March of 2002 but it is forever etched in my memory. The branches covered part of the leftside of the green and if your ball made it into the rear portion of the left greenside bunker you had to hit through a kitchen window to get on the green. I know many others on here would not agree that a tree is a good design element but to me it was. It also blocked shots to the green when we would play cross country golf from lower 9 green to 8 green.
Thanks again for the photos Tim. I never took enough in my years there.
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#8 is a favorite of mine, as I was both lucky enough to find the greenside bunker and use need that right side bank. Instant classic.
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Tim,
I agree that this hole grows on you. When you first look it seems rather blah but it definitely is not. I recall the first time I played it and faded, unintentionally, my approach to the right of the bunker, thinking I was going to be in trouble and have the ball role back down so I would need to clear the bunker on a pitch shot. Luckily learned that the feeding area to the right could work to your advantage. You would not know that from the fairway. When the pin is left front, it is best to putt from off the fairway if necessary and clearly a lot better than having a downhiller.
Thanks for this thread. It is great.
Bob
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I echo what's been said above. This hole does grow on you with repeat plays. The 2d shot into #8 with a right pin is one of the most fun shots I've had anywhere. Nearly every time I've played the hole the pin was tucked behind the front right bunker. Fortunately, the first round there I was with a caddie who told me to miss the green right and watch what happens. I did this and the ball fed off the greenside right slope right to the hole. Very cool, and emblematic of the great things one can do on the ground at Pacific Dunes.
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The 9th hole is a par 4 (with two greens - an "upper" and "lower")
406 from the black tee
379 from the green tee
Not certain if those scorecard yardages are to the upper or lower green.
In another recent thread, Tom Doak declared this amongst his favorite tee shots of all his courses. Wow. Enough said.
Following my second trip to Bandon in 2005, this hole received my "least favorite hole on the course" award. On that trip, I played the hole to even par in 4 rounds (one birdie, one bogey) and it just didn't seem to have any defense. It mostly played to the lower green that trip, and in the summer wind to the lower tee if you are striking the tee ball well you just feel like you can stand up on the tee and pound the ball right down to the front of the green inside 50 yards. Fortunately for me in 2007 we played to the upper green a bit more, I hit one poorly struck tee shot into the "wall of death", and I played the hole a little bit worse. Now I can appreciate what I did in 2005, and I look forward to more attempts at this hole. It's still toward the bottom of the list for me, but if you haven't figured out how much I love ever hole at this course yet you haven't been paying close attention.
The fairway is blind from the tee. All one sees is the giant diagonal dune that guards the fairway. You don't need to cut off quite as much as you think you need to to go for the lower green. The lower fairway serves as a giant bowl and tee shots that stray a bit right as long as they are generall on the right path will find themselves well down the extremely bumpy fairway. When the pin is in the upper green, you must aim much further right than feels comfortable on the first play if you want a good line of sight to the green. You can still play the hole from the lower fairway, but that leaves the dreaded blind approach following a blind tee shot. Not the preferable route on this hole.
It's not hard for this hole to get lost in the mix given the holes it follows and the two seaside par 3s to follow.
The tee shot and the "wall of death"
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/IMG_0517.jpg)
The fairway pops into view after making the trek up and over the wall.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/IMG_0520.jpg)
A wide view of the entire fairway, with both the upper and lower greens in view
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/IMG_0514.jpg)
Thanks to Scott Weersing for this terrific photo of the approach to the lower green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/Weersingno9PacificDunes1.jpg)
A view of the approach to the upper, taken from just off the 6th tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD9Upperwide.jpg)
Another view of the approach to the upper
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD9UpperApproach.jpg)
The upper green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-9GreenUpper.jpg)
The lower green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/IMG_0527.jpg)
Looking back on the fairway from the 9th lower green - look at the movement in the fairway!
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/IMG_0509.jpg)
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There are a lot of things I love about this particular hole. I would not be likely to nominate it as one of the BEST holes on the course, but nevertheless it is one of my FAVORITE holes on the course.
I love the tee shot because it is two very different tee shots to the same fairway ... as opposed to many split fairway holes which offer the same tee shot to two different ones. If the lower green is in play, you're trying to hit a big rope hook like on the tenth at Augusta and get on down there; but if the upper green is in use, you want to hit a fade or something so you WON'T get down there and have a blind approach up the hill.
I love the lower green with that big hump in it. Mr. Keiser never would have allowed me to build a green with such a contour, except I managed to convince him that it would only get used a small percentage of the time.
I love that little bunker in front of the lower green with the small gorse bush on top of it, so you might have to play the bunker shot over the gorse ... don't fluff that one!
I love the fact that the back tee, the fairway landing area, and the upper green are all 137 feet above sea level, even though no one would ever think of it as flat.
But, funnily enough, this isn't a hole that was obvious to me on the topo maps at first look. In fact, on my original drawing, the tenth hole was a short par-4, and it was only after I got to Bandon that I discovered David Kidd had used some of that ground for Bandon Dunes ... so the only way I could use the green site for #10 was to come diagonally across the tops of the dunes from this direction with #9. That was also the day I realized Pacific Dunes would probably wind up with back-to-back par-3 holes, even though it took some time before Mike K. was comfortable with it.
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Tom
How strongly would you have pushed for back-to-back 3s if CPC hadn't existed down the coast? Would Mike Keiser have approved?
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What's the approximate %age of usage for each green?
Does it change seasonally?
I played back-to-back days in June and played the lower green both times, so I haven't seen the upper.
I was happy to have what I felt was a "breather" hole to finish the front 9, as with the lower green and downhill slope I felt I could hit just a long iron and get some roll out of it, and the wind wasn't that much of a factor down in that hollow. But if "they" say the toughest shot in golf is a half-pitch, it's even tougher on a down slope!
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The greens are changed fairly frequently. Not necessarily daily but close.
ONe of my favorite holes too. Simply awesome. You've played nothing like the tee shot on #9 in your life!
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I fully agree with the sentiments on the 9th hole.
The tee shot is spectacular and one of the finest on the course and when it plays to the lower green, it certainly brings in a bite off as much as you can chew component to the tee shot.
And to boot, even hitting a long bomb down there gurantees you nothing because you still can't hold that green with the prevailing summer wind and undulations-a-plenty with a wedge in hand. After screwing up my drive and going to the right I hit a layup of sorts and was left with a 70 yard chip in that I had no clue how to even get on the green....that in my book is genius. So I guessed, did a bump and run and got lucky to save the par.
For those who have played it multiple times, whats your preference, the upper green or lower one? I took a quick look in that direction after my horiffic sliced drive but wouldn't even begin to speculate.
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Kalen,
I prefer the lower green to the upper green in a strict comparison of the greens. I, however, prefer playing the hole to the upper green if that makes sense.
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They use the upper green two days and then the lower green two days. As I understand it, so many players would play Pacific on day 1 and 3 of their trip (or 2 and 4), and wound up rotating back to the same green again, they decided more people would get to play both if they did it this way. If you play Pacific two days straight, you've got a 50/50 chance of playing the same green again.
If you play it three days straight you will be sure to see both of them. :)
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Tom Doak, maybe you've answered this before, I just haven't seen it. How difficult/tricky was it to route Pacific Dunes?
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Jim:
That's a long story, but the short version is that I did three different routings -- one before I got there, one after a 5-day site visit, and the final one six months later during another 4-day visit.
The first one had to be chucked because I had a few holes in the space occupied by 6-7-8 at Bandon Dunes, which didn't show on my map. There were four holes on that plan which we used in the final version -- 6, 10, 11 and 16 -- plus pieces of other holes. 13 and 14 weren't even on the map; Mr. Keiser gave me that land to work with to make up for the section he had given David off of our site.
The second version had quite a few of today's holes -- 1, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, and 16 -- and, again, parts of others. [#2 would have been a long par-3 to the landing area, for example, and then #7 would have been #3.] But some of that area was still covered in gorse, so we couldn't see what was going on that well. Mr. Keiser was concerned about the back-to-back par-3 holes and about having all the coastal holes running to the north [#4 was replaced by a different hole running north]. I knew the par-3's pretty much had to stay, but went back to work on the problem of #4 after the gorse had burned. Once we found the green site on #3 (which had previously been under gorse), the rest of it came together pretty fast.
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Tom, what inspired you to put in two greens?
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Tom
How strongly would you have pushed for back-to-back 3s if CPC hadn't existed down the coast? Would Mike Keiser have approved?
Tom - Not sure if you missed this or saw it and chose not to answer. I'm curious to know if CPC ever entered the discussion as a talking point when convincing Mike Keiser to go with the back-to-back 3s. I promise I won't ask a 3rd time! Once could be an oversight. Twice I'll take as a "no comment."
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Tim;
Count me as one that thinks the 9th played to the upper green is a stronger, more challenging hole than the lower. In either wind the second shot to the upper is demanding, primarily because the green simply is not offered as a clear target........it, as much as any green at the resort, simply lies there as part of the terrain, without support on the sides or back to define it. It, more than any, is simply golf ground more closely mowed that it's surrounds. It merely is a spot in the terrain on the way to the tenth tee on the bluff.
And that, in my mind, makes the upper green unique, difficult to play to even with a well placed tee shot on the right half of the fairway.
In the summer wind it is merely a short pitch, but one that asks to be run in.
The green, while soft enough to be pinnable, offers little comfort; a shot left on the front becomes a difficult two putt, to any cup location. And in the raging south winds of winter, it is a long iron into a non target.
On the other hand, played in a summer wind, there is no tee shot at the resort (save #3 at the Trails, also when downwind), that is as freely played as the one to the lower fairway, and a shot to a rolling green separated into distinct areas, a green without one single simple putt.
This hole, as every hole at Pac, is not one to take for granted........
Tom
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Tom J:
Sorry, I saw your question but got sidetracked.
Honestly, I never thought I would build back-to-back par-3 holes anywhere. I played Cypress Point for the first time when I was 15 and I've known that it worked there ever since, but just about everywhere else it seems like a gimmick. And honestly, I never thought I would get a place to build two holes like that on the ocean. But I was stuck with it once I found out #10 couldn't be a par four because David Kidd had used too much ground for it.
Yes, I did mention Cypress Point to Mike K., but really what convinced him was my logic ... #10 was too good a green site to pass up, and #11 was too good to hit a blind tee shot over the dune behind the green. Interestingly, he was more of a fan of #10 than of #11 in the beginning, which tells you something about how much work we did on the two holes relative to each other.
As for your comments on the two greens on #9 ... actually, the lower green on #9 is the only one on the course which is just laying on the natural contour pretty much untouched. The upper green is not far off, but we had to build up the back of it quite a bit so that balls wouldn't just run all the way through it every time ... the front 2/3 of it is pretty much natural. I did a lot of the shaping on that green myself. Interestingly, too, it's one of the only greens Mike ever questioned ... he didn't like that little hump in the front right third of it.
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Tom D;
I think Tim B was the one who asked the CPC question........but no matter, your comments are always appreciated.
Interesting your comments about shaping the two greens. I was fooled by the back edge ridge of lower nine...it looks pushed up, as opposed to the flattish meadowy complex behind that green.
And the upper green just appears to effortlessly flow into the terrain leading to the cliffside tee for 10.
We, in observing a course's features, can only attempt to understand the truth about the various cuts, fills, and shaping that appears in the final product of a course, but I guess the SKILL that is employed ultimately hides what was there before the work begins. I have always assumed that the upper tee had that elevation and that leading edge, and now I have to question that long held assumption.
That process of observing the 'before and after' continues for me, on a daily basis, and in a fascinating way, as Old Mac progresses.
Thanks,
Tom
ps.........now back to the Open, at my original home course, Torrey.
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Tom, what inspired you to put in two greens?
bump
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Related to Matthew's question, what came first - two tees at 10 or two greens at 9?
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The two tees at ten came first.
Before we started construction, Mike Keiser had asked me why it was that the back tees always had the best view of every hole, and I said it was because they were usually in line so the back tee had to be higher to see over the rest. He asked how you could overcome that, and I said by offsetting the tees ... so on #10, where Mike liked the upper tee for the average guy, I wanted to put in a lower back tee for the good player. [We were also keenly aware of trying to make the back-to-back 3's as different as possible, and one important part of that was making 10 long and 11 short.]
So we had the two tees on ten, and the upper green on #9 which came first. But we had to clear a lot of the lower part of #9 fairway in order to accommodate a hooked tee shot, and once we'd done that, I started seeing the case for the lower green on #9 and the differing tee shots it would create. On one walk-through I asked Mike whether he liked the view down toward the lower green, and he said yes, so we went ahead and built the lower green as well. It only cost a few more irrigation heads to do it ... the greens mix is pretty much free in Bandon. The irony is that the upper ninth green is the biggest green on the whole course, so we couldn't justify it on the basis of needing green space ... when Tom Fazio builds his two-green par-4 holes, both of the greens are usually on the small side.
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In general, I like the upper 9th green better, but i like to hit the swinging hook off the tee to the left fairway. I like the lower 10th tee better.
The hardest part about 9 is the mislabeled sprinkler head about 125 yards out, on the left side of the fairway. I swear one of the sprinkler heads has the wrong yardage to the left green, and it has fooled me several times, including the last time I played the course. It seems half the time I double check to make sure I have the right yardage (white or yellow numbers for distances to top and bottom greens), decide I have about 120 downwind and downhill to center of the lower green, so I hit my 95-100 yard club down the hill, and end up 5 yards short of the green. Doh!
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The 10th hole is a par 3
206 from the black tee
163 from the green tee
Those yardages sound more like the lower tee and upper tee than black and green. I'm sure someone will clarify that point.
The 10th brings us back to the ocean. The route depends upon the green you just played on the 9th. It's fitting in my mind that in the summer the lower tee plays tougher after playing to the easier lower 9th green. The upper 10th is a little more straight-forward after a tougher 9th green. It all evens out in the end, though I'll take the upper combo. I know I'm supposed to like the lower tee better. It's a tougher hole. The surroundings are beautiful from that lower tee, and it is an extremely intimidating shot into the summer wind. I like playing the upper better. In this respect, I guess I'm just a shallow-minded scenery hog. It's probably also the fact that the upper tee is the only opportunity to play a par 3 on this course with a significant elevation drop. If one of the other holes played a little more downhill (I guess 17 does too but it doesn't feel like it) I'd be satisfied with the lower tee. You can't really go wrong with either one. All-in-all, the 10th is a hole I really enjoy. It's a great start to a back nine that will allow you to score, but also punish you if your swing is loose.
The 10th can't compare to the all-world 11th in my book, but few par 3s can. More on that later this week.
One must not pass up on the opportunity to play the hole in the late evening when few are on the course. Tee one up on the 10th upper and play a ball down to the 6th at Bandon Dunes. It's a wicked shot and the green sets up much more difficulty for this shot than the intended 6th. No need to go down and finish out the hole; just play closest to pin. Hmmm... so that's where all those stray balls on the 6th at Bandon come from! I have a photo of this tee shot to the 6th, which I will post tomorrow. I don't have my laptop with me at the moment.
Happy Father's Day to all the dads out there!
The walk through the gorse tunnel from the lower 9th green to the lower 10th tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-Timinthegorsetunnel.jpg)
The view from the lower tee - Look how much is going on between the tee and the green. Hard to focus on that 200 yard shot.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD10Lower.jpg)
In the evening
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-10LowerTeeDusk.jpg)
The upper tee - the green is much more receptive looking than from the lower tee, but look how much landing area you actually have short of the green from the lower tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD10Tee2.jpg)
One of my favorite photos from the course - the wide view from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD10Teewide.jpg)
The hike down to the green from the upper tee - Is this you, Joe??
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-JSMandCaddieon10Path.jpg)
A view looking back on the 10th
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD10Lookback2.jpg)
And another
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD10Lookback.jpg)
A shot of the green with 11 looming in the distance
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD10Green11inBackground.jpg)
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The 3rd green is one of the few spots where I'm lacking photos. If anyone has a nice image of the green, I'd appreciate the support. I've got a few approach shots to the skyline green, but I don't have any that will give you a sense of the contours or movement on the putting surface.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guynick/969752895/sizes/l/in/set-72157601119850106/
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Here is 10 from the tee...
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/jdoerr01/IMG_3233.jpg)
Here is an additional of 10 with 11 in the distance...
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/jdoerr01/2004_0108Bandon20050044.jpg)
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Tim,
I remember standing on the upper tee the first time I played 10 and did not have the slightest idea as to club selection, what with the elevation drop, wind, and likely hard surface in front of the green. After much deliberation recall hitting a very thin 5 iron which took a few bounces and actually got to the green.
Your photos really tell a story about the differences from the two tees. On the lower tee the mound to the left front appears to be very close to the green but in reality it is about 30 yards short if I recall. From the upper tee the mound does not present a problem. This hole has all kinds of options which make it all the more interesting.
Thanks again for posting all of this.
Bob
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It is funny that 1 is the only hole on the front nine I would note in a negative way as well I find the visual on the tee shot along with a blind second make for a less than well thought out opening hole on a resort course. I say this strickly from a pace of play point of view. I personally love the hole but one needs to have played it once to know the hole. I am a huge fan of Toms work here and love the course. I only wish I could play it more often.
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One of the keys to playing from the upper tee is to have some knowledge of how the ball reacts off the dune slope/right edge, as many balls are pushed that way by the often quartering wind...........most importantly when there is a rear cup location.
Play from the lower tee in the summer wind is played more directly into that wind, necessitating a low, bore-ing shot.
Shots short are safe, and sometimes a shot well played but strong rolls off the falling rear edge into the hazard.
Like #9, a hole with numerous subtleties.
Happy Fathers Day!!!!
Tom
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In the winter wind does the lower tee necessitate the use of the run-up area to hold the ball on the green for most players? I would think this might be more intimidating that the summer wind for the first time player that doesn't realize there is so much room short of the green from this angle.
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Tim: Into the wind, from the lower tee you can have a driver to hit into #10. I think that's more intimidating than when it's downwind.
The tee shot from the upper tee on 10, into a summer crosswind, is much more difficult to judge. If you double-cross the tee shot, I've seen players hit it over #11 tee and over the cliff! The host teaching pro Grant Rogers has that hole figured out, though ... he hits his "bunt driver" soft fade with a driver pretty much every time he plays the hole, and I've seen him make two birdies in the three times I've watched it.
I've even seen him do that on #11, starting it out over the cliff edge! ::)
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#10 has one of the great greens on the course, and due to the long approach shot, it yields many mid- to long length putts.
I made one of the great 2s of my life there a few years back, throwing everything I've got into a punched 3-iron from the back tee, right into the teeth of a 20 mph wind. The ball traveled on a line over the big hill guarding the right edge of the green, then reappeared rolling past the back pin placement and settling just off the green, where I sank a downhill 20 foot right-to-left breaker for the deuce. I remember it as though it was yesterday. A great moment, one that made me like I can really play this game.
In honor of Grant Rogers, I may have to pull out the bunny driver if the right wind comes up next time. He says bunt; I call it the bunny.
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I played two days at Bandon, and Pacific this past February. We had hardly a breath of wind and gorgeous weather. There was even a short frost delay on the first day. Did I miss out not getting to play in the wind, or should I be thanking my lucky stars that I was able to escape with a couple of rounds in the low 80's in my first attempt at each course.
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Tim,
Come on already... I've been waiting for #11 for about a week now. :'(
Bring it baby.
- Peter
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A question for Tom, if Bandon was in a more accessible place and Mike gave you a design brief to build a course on the same land that could host the US Open what would you have done, would the routing have changed and is there any holes that would significantly change?
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Matthew:
I might have turned the job down.
That's a way different assignment than what I had, so my approach would certainly have been different. But I can't even begin to think about what we might have done under those circumstances ... I'm just glad I didn't have to.
Keep in mind -- to date, in the history of golf architecture, NO course has been designed from the start to host a U.S. Open and then actually hosted one. (I never heard Chambers Bay talk about this objective in advance, although they may have thought about it ... I did hear Erin Hills talk about it, but apparently they're still going to have to make some big changes before they get the Open.) Lots of courses have been built by unrealistic developers who told their architect to build a course that could host the Open ... with not so great results. I'd prefer not to tilt at windmills, and if you don't know what that means, you need to read more.
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Tom:
What a very quixotic response. ;)
BTW I love 10, both versions. And I think it's a tribute to the designer that at least I for one am never disappointed which combo of 9 and 10 I get. I mean that. They're all great, each in their own way.
TH
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What a great thread. I really miss PD!
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Hey now...
Who duct taped Tim B to the wall so he can't continue on with number 11. Its been almost a week now! Lets get this thread rolling!! ;)
(http://claysangels.com/images/taped2_2.jpg)
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Hey now...
Who duct taped Tim B to the wall so he can't continue on with number 11. Its been almost a week now! Lets get this thread rolling!! ;)
Who sent you that picture of me?
I knew this was going to be a tough week from the get-go. I've been in Vegas all week, and I'm getting home late tonight. I'm on the move again for the next couple of days. I'll try to find some time to fit in #11, beginning now if the airport Internet connection stops garbaging out on me.
Updated note: Connection at the airport is running WAY too slow to get the photos I need to the host site. To be continued Saturday...
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The 11th hole is a par 3
148 from the black tee
131 from the green tee
This hole is, in my opinion, the best par 3 in a set of five stand-out par 3s on this great course. Eye candy comes to mind when you first see the photos. The 11th and 13th are probably the two most aesthetically pleasing holes on the course (when factoring in the surroundings as well.) Fortunately, both have the goods to back up the golfing experience as well. The hole is short, which is appropriate in the summer wind. The green feels small - I'm not sure it is the smallest on the course but I would guess it is close.
I've only played the course into a neutral or headwind. Without wind (rarely happens) the hole plays as a wedge for me. In 2003, I played the hole twice on the same day. In the morning, it was a full 9-iron. In the afternoon it was a full 6-iron from the same tee. Though the green looks relatively flat, it is full of subtle breaks. Rolling in the putts here aren't as straight-forward as you might think. The bunkering is as good as it gets in my opinion, and I've had plenty of opportunity to put them to the test. Large bunker protect the front of the green - been there. A long and deep bunker looms on the left to protect the slightly wayward shot from heading off the cliff - been there. A small pot bunker hides from view off the tee on the right side of the green - been there. All of these bunker shots can be tough (particularly from the bunker on the right with the ocean behind the green) but none are impossible and all are fun. I've seen balls bounce from the dunes on the right back onto the green. I've seen someone hit an ugly short pull and play from the cliffside short of the green.
The 11th is one of my favorite par 3s anywhere.
Walking off the 10th hole, the 11th greets you with this view as you walk to the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD11from10.jpg)
Three views from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD11Tee3.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD11Tee4.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD11Tee5.jpg)
A closer view of the front bunker
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-11Bunker.jpg)
With all apologies to Bob Huntley :P, this was a one-time shot that dictated the direction of the hat on my head (temporary rally cap - acceptable exception as mentioned by Mike Hendren) ;D
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-TPBin11Bunker.jpg)
A look at the green from behind
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD11Green.jpg)
and a look at the green from the front
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-11Green2.jpg)
Another look at the green from one of the scariest small bunkers on the course
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD11Green3.jpg)
Some wide views from behind
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-11Lookback.jpg)
This one shows the long bunker on the left side of the green. You can also see how the green tends to fall off a bit on the left side
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD11Lookback5.jpg)
Everyone that has the pleasure to experience return trips to Bandon should time at least one round to "end" out at the ocean
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-11greentotee.jpg)
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I just realized I promised a view of the special 6th hole at Bandon Dunes played from 10th tee at Pacific Dunes. Worth a closest to pin competition on the evening when you plan the round to end at the ocean at sunset...
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/BD-6GreenfromPD10Tee.jpg)
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Tim--
What about the people playing on Bandon?
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Joe - I'm not recommending that everyone hit a shot down to the 6th on a frequent basis, and I didn't intend for it to sound that way. Let me clarify - in ten trips around the course we did this one time. We had talked about it the first several times around that it would be cool to try it out if we were ever out in the late evening when most of the folks were done for the day. One night we were out playing both courses were empty, so we tried it out. Perhaps they could use this hybrid hole as a crossover if they ever host a tournament and decide to use a blended routing of the two courses.
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Tim,
Thanks again for all the pics, and the generous helping of #11 pics.
#2, #11 and #13 are the ones that my mind's eye keeps coming back to long after the last round at Pacific Dunes. "How will I play those shots next time..."
Your survey just further whets the appetite...
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(http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8648/simpteeqs5.jpg)(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8645/simpb1fn7.jpg)
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3043/simpb2yc3.jpg)(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/649/simpb3wc1.jpg)
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4210/simpb4rg7.jpg)(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1407/simpputtlv0.jpg)
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whoops.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Pacific%20Dunes/pd012.jpg?t=1214096938)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Pacific%20Dunes/pd013.jpg?t=1214097138)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Pacific%20Dunes/pd014.jpg?t=1214097419)
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I consider #11 to be one of Tom's most artistic golf holes. I believe a fair amount of work was required to create it, and it is spectacularly beautiful.
The second of a series of four consecutive holes into the summer wind, it provides another opportunity for a controlled, low approach. Back pin placements are my favorites here.
On another active thread on page 1, Tom mentions he's not exactly sure what makes a great par 3. This is one of my favorites. Beautiful, and it requires an exacting, short shot to get your par or birdie.
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David,
That first pic is one of the best golf pictures I've seen of any course, any where. Fantastic.
Here's a quick video of me aiming about 40 yards left of the flag and hitting my tee shot 40 yards right of the flag at #11.
http://home.comcast.net/~jcolton31/pacdunes11.mov
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#11 is certainly one of the most photogenic holes I've ever played. Although short, it is no pushover, and it can (like most every other hole at Pacific Dunes) ruin a round. I've seen at least one pickup on this hole. The wind can wreak havoc with a poorly struck shot. And anyone with a left to right ball flight has to test their courage and determine how far out into the Pacific to aim.
This can also be a very serene setting late in the day with the sun setting over the ocean.
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Joe - I'm not recommending that everyone hit a shot down to the 6th on a frequent basis, and I didn't intend for it to sound that way. Let me clarify - in ten trips around the course we did this one time. We had talked about it the first several times around that it would be cool to try it out if we were ever out in the late evening when most of the folks were done for the day. One night we were out playing both courses were empty, so we tried it out. Perhaps they could use this hybrid hole as a crossover if they ever host a tournament and decide to use a blended routing of the two courses.
I don't think so Tim.
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David,
That first pic is one of the best golf pictures I've seen of any course, any where. Fantastic.
Here's a quick video of me aiming about 40 yards left of the flag and hitting my tee shot 40 yards right of the flag at #11.
http://home.comcast.net/~jcolton31/pacdunes11.mov
Thanks Jim. It was a beautiful evening. Not nearly as much wind as in your video, but still I managed to avoid cluttering the view with a ball on the green. Nice to see you are playing from the right side of the ball.
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I think the hole is a challenge in the winter when it is downwind. You have to calculate how much club it will take to clear the first bunker. One day in 2007 the pin was in the back and I hit a 9 iron that landed on the green and then climbed up the hill behind the green. It then rolled back down the hill towards the hole.
I hated this hole for a long time as I could never manage to hit the green but I like it more now. I still relieved to walk away with a par as there are few places to get up and down from if you miss the green.
(http://inlinethumb45.webshots.com/12524/2850174270101361110S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2850174270101361110zvfSvZ)
A photo from my first visit to Pacific Dunes in 2003. I shot this on Fujichrome 100D back in the old days of film.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Pacific%20Dunes/pd012.jpg?t=1214096938)
David, This is #3 green - correct?
P.S. In Scott's picture above - I believe that is my golf bag on the back on #10. What a day and a memory.
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I absolutely LOVE the routing of PD. By the time you get to 11, you're almost at the climax of the course. The ocean and wind are roaring, you're on your game, and you can't wait to conquer the rest of the course. By the time you're into 15/16, you're in the denouement.
To me, a great course is like great literature. PD is truly a great course that provides such a literary experience. Sometimes it's a drama, sometimes it's a comedy, but it always makes those that play it better for the experience.
PD 11 is, without a doubt, my favorite par 3 - ever.
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#11 is a gem--it's all you'd want in an oceanside par 3, IMO. It has views, options off the tee, danger and the possibility of birdie.
If I had a criticism of Pacific Dunes (and I'm on record as saying it's the best course I've played) is that #11 might be, to borrow Dan's phrase, the climax of the course. Don't get me wrong--I don't think there's a bad hole after #11 and there are several very good ones (#13, #15 and #16), but I don't think any of the subsequent holes reach the same level of excitement as #11. #13 is the obvious candidate, but I've never really loved the hole despite the awesome surroundings. As I said, I like #15 and #16 very much and while I personally don't hold #17 and #18 in the same high regard, they represent a worthy finish. So, for me, the strength of the course is from #2 to #11 and there is the slightest bit of a drop-off after #11.
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Sorry Tim,
But I'm calling mokey spunk on this one. While 11 is really good, I don't think it was the climax of the course, but was certainly a nice creschendo!!
After being teased with 4 and 5, coming back to the ocean is sure nice, but it doesn't end there. After 11, you get poked and tickled a little more by having to go back to 12. But then 13 and 14 unfold before you. 13 with the view north up the coast, and 14 with the view south and most of the entire course. 14 tee is no doubt my most favorite spot on the course. It really works well as a nice 1-2 visual punch and gives the golfer one last chance to take it all in before they start the trek inland to home. But we can save that for 13 and 14 discussion.
11 was my most fav par 3 on the course. I think the bunkering really tied in with the surrounds harmoniously and makes for a visually intimidating target, especially when you get up there and realize you have more room than it looks. I can't think of a single thing I would do differently with this hole. It really is epic stuff and needs to be seen in person to get the full effect of it.
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Tim - I like the climax in the middle 6 of a golf course. Like I said, it then plays out like fine literature. You see this at Augusta, PD, and a lot of other great courses.
To me, keeping the goodies till the end is a tease. Give them too early and you just want more.
I'm getting ahead of the thread here, but I think the ultimate PD experience is to find this little bench way up on the back tee on 17 and just have a seat for 5-10 minutes. Not only is the view awesome out over 16 onto the ocean, but it provides a serene place to contemplate the experience you've just taken in.
If golf were a religion, PD would be St Peter's.
If golf were literature, PD would be Shakespeare.
If golf were music, PD would be Beethoven.
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Sorry Tim,
But I'm calling mokey spunk on this one. While 11 is really good, I don't think it was the climax of the course, but was certainly a nice creschendo!!
After being teased with 4 and 5, coming back to the ocean is sure nice, but it doesn't end there. After 11, you get poked and tickled a little more by having to go back to 12. But then 13 and 14 unfold before you. 13 with the view north up the coast, and 14 with the view south and most of the entire course. 14 tee is no doubt my most favorite spot on the course. It really works well as a nice 1-2 visual punch and gives the golfer one last chance to take it all in before they start the trek inland to home. But we can save that for 13 and 14 discussion.
Kalen,
I don't disagree that #13 and #14 offer great views--I just think the strength of PD is #11 and the holes preceding it (#1, not so much). While #14 is a fine hole, it would have to be on my short list of least great holes at Pacific Dunes.
Dan,
I too am fine with a course where the middle six holes are the best, although in Pacific Dunes' case, I think you have to include #2 - #4. I prefer to judge a course as a whole, rather than parsing it out hole-by-hole (ironic, given this thread), but I can see one criticizing PD as having more good holes early than late in the round.
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#12 is a par 5.
The black tee is 529
The green tee is 507
The 12th hole has one of the toughest jobs on the resort. Bridge the gap between the world class par 3 #11 and the world class par 4 #13. In my opinion this par 5 does the job admirably, though it is certainly one of the lesser holes on the golf course. # 4 and #12 could have probably been reversed in order to have three consecutive holes on the ocean, but as has already been discussed on this thread it is the ups and downs that make this journey more exciting in the end.
The tee shot is not too daunting in the summer. With the wind coming at you, the fairway bunkers are not in play unless you stray too far to the left off the tee. The object of this hole, at least in my mind, has always been to position the ball to the right side of the fairway after the second shot for an optimal approach to the green. That is, of course, unless you've got enough distance to make a run for the green in two. I think this one would be great fun and full of decisions in the winter wind. Interested in thoughts from those that have played it with the helping wind.
I really enjoy the approach from inside 150 on this hole. There's something about the bumpy fairway combined with the wide open look to the green that makes me want to putt the ball. I've done it at least twice from 100 or so yards. While the hole is fairly straight-forward, it has by no means been easy for my group. I've seen 30 scores posted on this hole, and only once have I seen birdie. I've only made par once myself, and I've seen or posted multiple 8s and 9s. The best player in our group has never posted a score worse than bogey, so there's not much trouble lurking for someone that strikes the ball with good consistency.
I don't have enough photos of this hole, so I've got another task for my next trip out to Bandon. If anyone has any others, feel free to post.
From the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD12Tee.jpg)
the approach from behind the fairway bunker
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD12Approach.jpg)
A view of the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-12Green.jpg)
With the third green in the distance
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-123Greens.jpg)
A closeup of the green with the ocean in the distance. You can see in this photo how the back side of the green quickly transforms into the dune
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-BigOon12Green.jpg)
I'll have #13 up in a couple of days - probably Friday night through Tuesday night for those that don't check over the weekend. The hectic travel is done for now, so the holes will be coming more regularly next week.
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I have only played this hole in the winter wind, but I would have to guess that this wind creates a little more of thinking hole then when this is dead into a strong wind. First off, it brings the center line bunker into play. Which means if you want to make it on the left of the center line bunker, which is preferable (I think) you have to hit a very accurate drive.
Secondly, the hole is pretty easily reachable downwind. The great thing is that when you go for this green with a long iron or fairway wood, you tend to bail out right away from the trouble left (large bunker short left of the green and death left and long of the green). The problem when this happens is that your ball tends to funnel into the little area right of the green behind the dune that bumps up to the green (or worse, reaches the gorse). Then you're faced with a very awkward shot or 30-50 yards which may be blocked out by a portion of the dune, or at the very least will be affected by the spine running off the tip of the dune into the green. This was the predicament I found myself in both times (and only times) I have played Pac Dunes.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me ;) Fantastic hole!
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Tim,
I too have had difficulty scoring on this hole as, I suspect, have a lot of others. It seems as though it should be an easy par but it is not.
Your love of PD is shining through all of this thread and I, among others, really appreciate your comments and your pics. Thank you. I love this place too and if I could only score on this course like I seem to be able to on Bandon Dunes, I would love it even more.
Hope you are well.
Bob Jenkins
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The great thing is that when you go for this green with a long iron or fairway wood, you tend to bail out right away from the trouble left (large bunker short left of the green and death left and long of the green). The problem when this happens is that your ball tends to funnel into the little area right of the green behind the dune that bumps up to the green (or worse, reaches the gorse). Then you're faced with a very awkward shot or 30-50 yards which may be blocked out by a portion of the dune, or at the very least will be affected by the spine running off the tip of the dune into the green. This was the predicament I found myself in both times (and only times) I have played Pac Dunes.
I have been in exactly the same spot; the uniqueness of the dune is one of the reasons I really like this hole. I also like that 12 comes between two holes that can require very precise approaches, and thus is a nice change of pace.
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Bob - Funny you mention scoring at Pacific Dunes. I'm a 10 index right now and I've been anywhere from a 12 to a 16 when I visited Bandon. Bandon Dunes is the only course on the resort where I've ever broken 90. I've done it twice there, including an 86 that probably could have been an 82. I have had about 5 rounds at PD where I should have had a reasonable chance to break 90, and I've never pulled it off. The last time I played the course I was 13 over through 14 holes and I played the last 4 in +7 to limp home in 91.
The most painful of them all was probably a different round where I shot 91 - with a 10 on #4, a 7 on #14, and a 9 on #18. That round also included a re-tee on #1 for a lost ball, so I technically played from #1 tee to #18 green in 89 strokes, but I can rationalize all I want. I was +4 on the remaining 4 holes that round.
The next time around to Bandon, I may only play this course until I get it done.
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Tim B: I assume that round you just described was into a south wind, since all the holes you made big numbers on play south.
I hate to comment on #12 this early in the thread, but I'm off on a trip for the next week and probably won't be here much, so this is my only chance.
I think I've explained here already that the most difficult part of routing Pacific was to get #4 to play south along the coast, and to jump from the coast at 11, out at 12, and back in at 13 without some really awkward transitions. In a previous version of the routing, after #11 we played from 4 green back to a green by the middle tee on #4, turned around and went back to the south, and came back to this green location from #3 tee after playing #6 ... so all of the oceanfront holes would have run north, but they wouldn't all have been consecutive.
Once we sorted the routing, we actually built the back tee for #5 as a tee for 12, but we realized that someone would play down #4 to shorten the hole, and ruin it for everyone. So the tees moved right over toward the dunes.
Downwind, this is a pretty simple hole except that you think you've GOT to make 4 or even 3 to keep pace. We did contour a swale in the approach so you could steer a ball in from right to left.
Into the wind, the hole is another story entirely, because that bunker in the middle of the second shot catches a ton of balls. It's a bit farther to clear on the second shot than it looks standing in the fairway, because of a fold in the contours that makes you not see about 20-25 yards of ground in front of the bunker. I've even gone in the bunker after I was sure the ball had already bounced past it! And if you get in that bunker, no way you get on the green with your third shot.
The other reason people have so much trouble with the hole is because the green is very big and tilts a bit more toward the ocean than they realize ... so a bailed-out third shot leaves a 70-foot putt which few people judge correctly.
Finally, a construction point ... all of the dunes to the left of the hole for the last 150 yards are man-made, as is the ridge which houses the greenside bunker. It was very flat in that area, and we had to do something to steer play away from #4 tee (which is pretty close) and out to the right. Otherwise, we could not have put the green up against the back dune. The mounds to the right between #3 and #12 were added to stop players from mistakenly playing to this green on #3.
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Tom - fantastic stuff, many thanks. But are you going to leave ANYTHING for the book?
;D
I love 12, the main reason being the pressure one feels to make a score when downwind, and the struggle one has to achieve it in either wind. To me it's another genius golf hole on a course full of them.
TH
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Some poster (I forget if it was on this thread or not) recently wondered whether a good way to judge a course is to consider the relative strength of its weakest holes. I think it is (assuming you don't have 18 of them) and by this measure, Pacific Dunes comes out very well. Rightly or wrongly, #12 is going to be identified by most people as one of the weaker holes at PD. It looks simple enough but it's a very solid hole, IMO.
I've played it in helping and hurting winds and I'd have to say it's more interesting when it plays as a potential two-shotter. Into the wind, it's very long. Interesting features include the center bunker, which is very deceptive in distance, and particularly the contour near the green that Tom Doak mentioned that moves a ball from right to left (hey, that's my preferred ball flight). I also like the way the green is nestled below the large dune. It is a birdie hole downwind, but it's caught me out more times than not.
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I think 12 is a better hole than 15...I've played it predominantly downwind and going for 12 in 2 scares the hell out of me...not the first time you try it, but maybe the third time you try it and know that the bunker or way right are not bargains.
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That is a very intriguing thought (judging a course by the strength of its perceived weakest holes). Going over many great courses in my mind, I can't think of any that don't come out well this way. Pacific Dunes surely does great by this measure.
As for 12, great stuff, fully agreed. It's funny but many do cite this as one of the weaker holes there, but I tend to look forward to playing it a lot more than many others.... I'm with Ryan - I prefer it to 15 for sure....
TH
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Tim,
Yes thank you, great point!!!
Put me in the camp as one of those who thinks 12 is in the bottom 3 on PD. But here is the thing, I would love to have a hole like number 12 on my home course as its still a really good hole despite it being way down on the list. A good acid test for greatness IMO.
Kalen
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I've played it in helping and hurting winds and I'd have to say it's more interesting when it plays as a potential two-shotter. Into the wind, it's very long. Interesting features include the center bunker, which is very deceptive in distance, and particularly the contour near the green that Tom Doak mentioned that moves a ball from right to left (hey, that's my preferred ball flight). I also like the way the green is nestled below the large dune. It is a birdie hole downwind, but it's caught me out more times than not.
I'll always remember this hole for 2 of my best shots ever into a strong headwind in my 1st round at PD. I got on in 2 with a "stinger" 3-wood and nearly holed the putt for eagle from 50 feet out. I found that the hole just invited you to swing as hard as you can from both the tee and fairway.
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I found that the hole just invited you to swing as hard as you can from both the tee and fairway.
Art,
I agree and that's probably why I've ended up in some very strange places on that hole.
Getting on in 2 into a strong wind? You must be a big hitter. That's almost inconceivable to me.
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12 is a good hole, that, IMHO, allows for the player to take a bit of rest/breather and the potential for birdie before the VERY TOUGH 13th, and the sometimes don't-make-par-even-though-you-think-you-should-have 11th and 10th.
I think incorporating a shorter, easier par 5 was a pretty good idea....and coming around the corner to the 13th tee invokes yet another great feeling of exhilaration...
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12 is a good hole, that, IMHO, allows for the player to take a bit of rest/breather and the potential for birdie before the VERY TOUGH 13th, and the sometimes don't-make-par-even-though-you-think-you-should-have 11th and 10th.
I think incorporating a shorter, easier par 5 was a pretty good idea....and coming around the corner to the 13th tee invokes yet another great feeling of exhilaration...
GREAT points there also!
12 in a vacuum is a darn good hole I think - for the reasons we've stated here - but when one takes into account how it fits in the course (as we really should more than taking it in a vacuum) - then it is even greater. Like #5, it works perfectly - just for the reasons Jed states.
TH
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Getting on in 2 into a strong wind? You must be a big hitter. That's almost inconceivable to me.
For me, it was barely doable w/ 2 of my best shots from the 507 yard "green" tees... probably closer to 490 to where I "just got on." Easy iron in with the wind at your back.
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Tim B: I assume that round you just described was into a south wind, since all the holes you made big numbers on play south.
Summer wind, so all of those holes were playing downwind in that round.
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I think 12 is a better hole than 15...I've played it predominantly downwind and going for 12 in 2 scares the hell out of me...not the first time you try it, but maybe the third time you try it and know that the bunker or way right are not bargains.
I probably prefer 15 for the exact same reason. I've predominantly played 15 downwind, and going for it is a realistic possibility but very scary. I've been next to #15 in 2 and come away with an 8, but more on that later.
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In the comparison between #12 and #15, I end up liking #12 better even though I've had generally more success (at least two good performances) on #15 and that hole also offers more tricky shots around the green.
I like the blend fairway, the demand the bunker forces on a second shot when playing the hole into the wind, and the imposing dune of death behind the green. There's something I like about a hole where long simply is not an option, particularly with what feels like a narrow green (a bit like #3 in that way actually).
Into the wind, one needs to hit a good tee shot here to have a chance. So while one has some room, striking the ball pure off the tee is essential. And then the second shot needs to be struck well to avoid the bunkers. There are a lot of par 5's where one can get away with mediocre first and second shots, but this par 5 doesn't allow that.
Also, while you are not at the ocean's edge, it is still easily in sight, which makes for a nice segue between the beautiful #11 and #13 holes with their wonderful cliff-edge play.
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#13 is a par 4
The black tee is 444
The green tee is 390
The 13th is is one of my favorite par 4s. Much like the 11th, it combines the wow / eye candy factor with a tremendous golf hole. It is the last two-shot hole that plays into the summer wind (only the 17th after this one goes at the wind) and it is a beast when the wind is howling. There is ample room in the landing area, but, much like the 4th, the ocean drives the golfer to the opposite side (and often more trouble.) The trouble opposite the ocean is not quite as subtle on this hole. The gigantic dune on the right side of the fairway may be one of the few sites in golf that can draw attention away from the ocean.
The hole is long but playable from the green tee even in a strong wind. A well struck drive should reach the peak of the incline and provide a great (and terrifying) look at the green. In a lighter wind, a drive with some boom on it can be rewarded with a boost from the dramatically sloped fairway.
The approach in the summer is usually played with a long-iron or hybrid. There's more room up around the green than can be seen from the fairway, but danger lurks everywhere. By the time you finish this hole, it is hard to believe that only three holes on this seaside course have played directly on the ocean. Many participants were debating where the climax of this course occurs, and I think it is right here. There's still some great golf to be played on the way in to be sure, but arriving at the 13th green only two holes after playing the world class 11th can be overwhelming to the senses. This is a spectacular site for golf, and walking off the 13th green you are left with a sense that you've just completed a long stretch of some of the best golf holes to be found anywhere. This is the scene I long for when I dream of golf.
The 13th hole from the path to hole 4
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-13fromPath.jpg)
From the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-13Tee2.jpg)
From the forward tee. This normally serves as the ladies tee. We played alternate shot during our evening round and chose to play the 13th from this tee. We had never ventured over there prior to this round. The view is particularly good from this tee, and the angle tends to make you hit your shot even further to the right than desired.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD13Tee.jpg)
The approach to the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD13Approach2.jpg)
A wide view from the same position
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD13Approachwide.jpg)
From behind the pin with 14 in the distance
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD1314inbackground.jpg)
Looking back on the hole
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD13Lookback3.jpg)
Two shots from the 14th
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD13from14.jpg)
This is one of my favorites in my collection
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD13from14green.jpg)
The painting on my wall...
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/Painting-UpClose.jpg)
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Tim,
I must say that your favorite is mine as well. I have seen many shots from near that angle, but none from that exact perspective.
It reminds me of the sights, sounds and smells of the day two years ago.
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Tim:
Wow! That is just stunning stuff for #13. I've seen pictures before, but never realized how contoured the fairway is; I'd be real interested to hear how the fairway contours come into play. A spectacular seaside hole with an enormous looming dune, perhaps the fairway gets overlooked? It's pretty incredible.
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(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee38/puddletownpete/PacDunes13originalarchitect.jpg)
Excuse me for adding a picture to your album. I traipsed around with the Renaissance gang during construction and had to roll under a barbed wire fence to take the photo.
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Pete - Fabulous photo! That's what I hoped this thread would be all about - sharing perspectives of the course. Yours is one that few of us ever had the opportunity to witness.
Thanks for sharing!
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Pete, I really like your photo, too. Would love to see more photos of sites before the holes were built. Gives us an idea of what the architects faced in routing, placing hazards and moving earth.
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Sometime on that trip someone said the thirteenth would be a world-class hole. My thought - 'yeah, right'. Then DUH. After playing this hole and walking to the next tee reflection time on the driftwood bench is a must. Dan King will agree.
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Wow. And I don't mean to make light of Tom's skill as an architect.
But come on . . . Even I, a weekend hack with no design experience at all, can see an incredible golf hole right there . . .
talk about a great piece of property being a key to great golf . . .I have to say that I'm a little shocked that the land looked like that before any work was done. Seems almost too perfect . . .
-Ted
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Wow. And I don't mean to make light of Tom's skill as an architect.
But come on . . . Even I, a weekend hack with no design experience at all, can see an incredible golf hole right there . . .
talk about a great piece of property being a key to great golf . . .I have to say that I'm a little shocked that the land looked like that before any work was done. Seems almost too perfect . . .
-Ted
Ted - It sounds like Tom Doak would agree with you - he says as much in his statement about Pacific Dunes on their website: "I suspect that any golfer would have found some of the same holes, like the par-4 13th along the ocean, but it was an enormous responsibility to find the best possible routing on a site of such potential. "
13 is my favorite hole on my favorite course I've had the privelege to play. Playing it was almost surreal to me. After blowing a drive way right, having to fit that second shot between the dune and ocean was one of the scarier shots of the day to me. I was fortunate enough to execute it, but I'm curious - has anyone in the DG hit it up onto the dune? How difficult is that recovery - it looks about impossible?
Mike
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Mike,
Our group has played enough that we've seen some shots in the dune. It's not fun, but it isn't quite as scary as it looks either. Most of the shots over there tend to run back down into the lower bunker part of the dune, unless you get hung up on something in which case there's probably fair odds you will have some sort of unplayable lie.
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A couple sites I like to visit to view paintings and photography of Pacific Dunes are Joshua CF Smith (http://www.joshuacfsmith.com/) and Joann Dost (http://www.joanndost.com/). Lots of good photos on flickr.com (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12316928@N00/sets/72057594062032033/) too.
Here's some samples found of the 13th... another hole I find very intimidating both off the tee and on the approach. Even though there's plenty of room around the green, all I see is danger on the approach.
Painting by Joshua CF Smith (http://www.joshuacfsmith.com/)
(http://www.joshuacfsmith.com/images/Pacific_Dunes_hole_13.jpg)
Photo by happyfuntimes at flickr.com (http://www.flickr.com/photos/12316928@N00/sets/72057594062032033/)
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/81/237047206_8aa3f85595_b.jpg)
Photo by Joann Dost (http://www.joanndost.com/)
(http://www.joanndost.com/com/images/pdunes/PD-H13-01.jpg)
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A few more for all to enjoy!
I've been the victim of the false front a few times, and my tee ball always seems to end up farther right than the line I intended.
It truly is a majestic hole.
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/jdoerr01/IMG_3288.jpg)
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r215/jdoerr01/IMG_3252.jpg)
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Peter: Nice photo. I actually have a photo from the tee on the day Jim Urbina and I first "discovered" this hole, before the fire, with Jim standing in the fairway for scale.
The hole was indeed "all there" except for it was sandstone on the surface so we had to sand-cap the whole thing, and of course, we had to decide where to stop grassing and let the bunkers on the right remain exposed.
The fence that was just behind the tee which Peter crawled under was the property line for this parcel of ground, so none of holes 13 & 14 were on our topographic maps at all. When I found out that David Kidd had used more of the southern end of "our" property than I had imagined, I was struggling to come up with a routing that stayed in the dunes ... we would have had to put more holes to the left of #15 at Pacific. But then Mr. Keiser offered that he owned more land to the north and maybe we should go have a look at that!
All of holes 15-12-3-4 was solid gorse at that time with no good path through it, so Jim and I drove around to Whiskey Run Road and hiked up over the dunes to come out by #14 tee and discover #13 just waiting for us. That was the day I knew we were working on something beyond special.
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With all the nice photos, I figured I should post a terrible one:
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/siznimper/Bandon%20Dunes%202007/IMG_4719.jpg)
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What's that white stuff on the ground? Bandon always has nothing but GREAT weather in February....
;)
Just played with two Santa Teresa gents over the weekend who take an annual February trip and this was stated:
"we've gone three years now, never have broken out the rain gear."
I guess we're just hellaciously unlucky, huh Ryan?
But back to 13... not much more to be said that one of the world's great golf holes. I think calling it "eye candy" if that is meant to denigrate is really taking this GCA coolness thing too far. Eye candy means out of play - nothing I can see on any of these photos is even remotely close to out of play.
Wonderful hole, one to look forward to playing for sure.
TH
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I've never understood comments like Nicklaus, who calls the 8th at Pebble the greatest 2nd shot par four in the world. Huh? Sounds like a par 3 stretched beyond its means. One of the many great things about 13 at Pac is it is a PHENOMENAL 2 shot par 4. There's nothing like standing on the tee with a "good breeze" in your face and telling a golfer "just left of the flag sir". The inclination for a first timer is to look to the baleout right center in the fairway, and that is exactly where you don't want to be for your 2nd shot into the elevated green. Move forward to the fairway, standing on the right side of the fairway, and then listen as they tell you, "boy, I'd sure like to be over on the left side of the fairway"!!
Last year I started telling my players that IMHO this is one of the ten best par fours in the world. Not surprisingly, later last year I read on golf.com that Golf Magazine included it in their "Dream 18", one of ten par fours on the list.
This has exactly what a great par four requires, TWO perfectly executed shots to a green with many great pin placements requiring 1-2 great putts......all in a setting that is truly a dream, including one of the greatest greenside "bunkers" in the world.
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My only questions on the hole are these:
1) Is there any advantage to being in the left half of the fairway over the right half?
2) The ridge that serves as a side-bumper on the left - natural or manmade?
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It is not fun putting with hail on the green.
It is also not an easy shot from atop the Dune...
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee5/bnoser/IMG_4937.jpg)
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Ryan:
1. Yes, being on the left of the fairway means you don't have to approach over the bunkers, and you can pull your second shot a bit without going over the edge.
2. The bowl in front of the green and the ridge along the left edge short of the green are natural. The only change in the green area was to build up the left side of the green a bit, it fell off too quickly there.
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#14 is a par 3
145 from the black tee
128 from the green tee
This is the fourth of five 3s on the course that range from really good to world class. There's not a bad one in the bunch. The quality of the par 3s is so good that only upon further reflection does the golfer realize that this is the third par 3 in a five hole stretch.
Although the 11th is also a short par 3 of similar yardage, these two holes play in the oppostie direction. It is highly unlikely that one will use the same club on these two holes unless the wind is at its calmest. In typical winds, the two holes will usually play at least two clubs different. I've played a round where there was a 5-6 club difference (6I to #11 and SW to #14.)
The front pin position is particularly touchy in the summer wind because it is hard to land the ball in the proper position to leave a nice birdie putt. Short of the green can be dangerous, particularly if combined with a slight miss left or right. Left will leave you well below green level, with a touchy shot that will roll back to your feet if not placed safely on the green. In a strong wind, all types of bunkers come into play on the right side that don't appear to be an issue at first glance. I've seen more than one ball end up down closer to 13 than 14. This hole is one of the best possibilities at birdie given the short club in hand. It's also a realistic possibility to come away with 6 or worse if you don't strike that short club precisely. I've witnessed 2s, 3s, 7s, and 8s in my time on this hole.
I have several different shots and angles from the tee, but I dont have a great photo of the green. Contributors are welcom.
Views from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-14Green.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD14Tee2.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD14Tee.jpg)
A couple of views from down on #13
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-14.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD14from13.jpg)
One view of the green (with some pretty good shots)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-TPBBalls14Green.jpg)
A haven for deer behind the tee (with a glimpse of some OMD land behind)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD14Deer.jpg)
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Tim,
The word that comes to mind on the 14th is "execution". Just hit a simple short iron (usually) and hit it flush and you should have little problem. Centre of the green is your target, certainly nothing left as it will kick left and maybe into the bunker. Not a difficult hole but if you err in any way, you are often in big trouble.
I missed 13. Anyone who has played that hole will have it on their list of the greatest par 4s. No doubt. The tendency is certainly to see the open right side of the fairway but it does make for a much more difficult approach with those wild bunkers on the right.
This is one of those holes you just want to stand back and look at. Along with Pebble 8, this is right on top of my favourite and more particularly, the most memorable, challenging and unique par 4s anywhere.
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In either prevailing wind this is the most difficult par 3 out there, especially if the wind is 1 club+.
Hard to hold with a following wind, and you are in the shadow of the big dune. Winter winds gobble up the shot and the ball will usually funnel into the gutter bunkers. Give me a 3/4 shot under the wind and I will have a winning record.
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we would have had to put more holes to the left of #15 at Pacific. But then Mr. Keiser offered that he owned more land to the north and maybe we should go have a look at that!
TomD
Would Pacific Dunes be a different golf course if you knew at the time you would also be building Old Macdonald? Would you have saved some of the coast for Old Mac? Why wasn't 7 green site @ Old Mac incorporated into Pacific (seems like a great place for the next tee after 13)? Or did I just answer my own question?
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What makes 14 tough is the change of pace it presents. During the summer wind, holes 10-13 are hard against the wind. Then you get to 14 tee and your down wind with a short club in your hand. The golfer has spent the last four holes hitting full shots into a fierce wind and now he is asked to hit a short iron, down wind to a small target.
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Great point Joe. While I haven't played PD I found the same thing at TOC the first time I played. The first seven holes I had grooved somewhat of a pull swing to counteract the 30 mph wind blowing into my face and left to right. Then when I got 12 I hit a massive pull with the wind at my back and right to left as it was the first hole where the wind was really different and strong. While Muirfield is always touted for a different wind direction on every hole a situation like the one at PD can be equally difficult.
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The 14th is a much more interesting hole given the new views of Old Macdonald.
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I've long felt #14 was one of my favorite holes at PD.
Things to note:
- Those pics do not do those bunkers justice that surround the green. They are very deep and very nasty, and getting in one of those could easily take a couple of shots just to get out. I found myself riveted by them, even though I wanted no part of them. ;D
- In the prevailing summer wind, not only do you turn back downwind, but it offers a fabulous view of most of the course as well as much of the area that will be Old Mac. A great preview of the remaining holes to be played is had and it gives you one last chance to take in the whole ocean-setting thing.
- It really does require an exacting short shot that you almost have to land short of the green to have any chance to stay on it.
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I've only played the hole downwind once in the 8 times I've played it, and don't recall what it was like. Can you please tell me how the hole plays downwind? I've only ever hit 7 irons into it, and typically I end up in the left bunker or even left of that when the wind takes over.
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Hi.
My name is Tom, and I'm an ocean whore.
HI TOM!
It's been two hours since I praised a golf course and the views of the ocean was the first thing I mentioned.
APPLAUSE
With that as background, I shall give my thoughts on #14.
It is a stone bitch of a little golf hole. I think it's pound for pound (make that yard for yard) among the toughest little bitches I have ever played.
I have played it many times and have yet to succeed.
If on the green, I three-jack. If off the green, well.. unless I am just short and in the right place, the shot is too tough for me and I just punt and aim to the largest area. It is an infuriating and maddening little golf hole.
And for these reasons....
I love it. I think it's better than #10 or #11.
This helps me at Ocean Whores Anonymous. Oh sure, look to the right and one sees the briny blue. But it's far from a dominant part of the view or the feel, as it is at #10 or #11.
TH
ps to Ryan - it's harder downwind - damn near nowhere to stop the ball - very very very tough shot - land on front of green and hope for the best.
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Ryan,
The time I played, it was about 125'ish down wind. So I choked down on a pitching wedge and hit a low 3/4 shot that landed ~ 5 yards short of the green and rolled to pin high. My playing partners didn't have as much luck and ended up both left and right of the green.
I think also a part of what's going on is mind games being played with you as was discussed in the Pete Dye thread. Your turning around after playing 4 straight holes into the wind. You see a short little par 3 and shortish par 5 ahead of that and start to salivate over the possibilities. Then you realize after playing 14, thats its a tough little guy and is very demanding, so what you thought it was going to be, didn't turn out that way. I'm sure some train wrecks have occured there with those bunkers. A subtle little trick but very effectivly done IMO.
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Shots off target here are severly punished. The greenside bunker left is total hell, super deep, I've seen many unplayable lies. No room for backswing...
I personally have contributed to some serious pace of play issues with a shot gone wide right. It's ridiculous down there.
It's an exacting little hole. Shouldn't be very hard. I've birdied. I've taken a six.
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I personally have contributed to some serious pace of play issues with a shot gone wide right. It's ridiculous down there.
Sounds familiar...
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/siznimper/IMG_3340.jpg)
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Hi.
My name is Tom, and I'm an ocean whore.
HI TOM!
It's been two hours since I praised a golf course and the views of the ocean was the first thing I mentioned.
APPLAUSE
Hi Tom -
Thank you for your honesty. That took courage. You should feel good about yourself. The first step towards healing is admitting you have a problem. Now let me introduce you to your mentor - I'd like you to meet Tommy Naccarato...
:)
Peter
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I now realize I have one and only one thing in terms of scoreboard over Mr. Huckaby when it comes to golf.
I've played that hole once, downwind, and am 1 for 1. Stuck a wedge to pin high about 10 feet and nailed the birdie putt!! How bout them apples Huck... ;D 8)
P.S. I can still recall very well my thoughts when first seeing that cavernous bunker right of the green. I though holy hell what do you do if you get in that thing!!!
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Day 1 (tailwind) - gap wedge: right at pin, landed green and rolled off to road behind (no deer observed)
Day 2 (tailwind) - sand wedge: right at pin, landed green and rolled off to road behind (no deer observed)
Next trip (tailwind) - lob wedge: right at pin, land short of green and roll to within 3 feet of pin (observe deer after making birdie and leaving green)
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Kalen, you own me.
Peter, the Emperor's been my mentor for too many years as it is.
;D
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I think there may be something to this downwind short iron observation.
Day 1 (headwind) - 4iron hole high on the green
Day 2 (Tailwind) - SW.......see Art Fuller's response
Agreed on the bunker right, absolutely frightening.
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Last time I played into a STRONG headwind hit 4 iron about 10 feet off the ground didn't reach green, Texas wedge for 2! It was blowing so hard I couldn't get a ball to stay on a tee.
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The 14th in sun...
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj310/eko_gfl/IMG_0812.jpg)
...and in fog.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj310/eko_gfl/IMG_0837.jpg)
The 14th is one of my favorites. Its one of the most natural holes I have ever seen. Has anyone played to a back left pin? What are the toughest pin placements?
Ed
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Ed:
14 is actually the LEAST natural hole on the course. All that was there when we started was a severe crest of dunes ... we knocked the dune down about ten feet, then had to haul a bunch more sand in from behind the tee to build up the left side to give some chance of recovery from there. It was either that, or play out into the field to the left which is now #6 at Old Macdonald.
We did make a dip in the approach short of the green so you could try to land it there when playing downwind ... play a low punch shot into the dip instead of flying the wedge to the front of the green. It's hard to pull off but I've done it once or twice ... you don't want to leave it short and give yourself the uphill downwind chip shot.
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Ed:
14 is actually the LEAST natural hole on the course.
Tom, I'm not sure whether that is incontrovertable evidence of (a) your supreme skills, (b) my ignorance or (c) both.
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The 15th is a par 5
539 from the black tee
504 from the green tee
The is the first hole on the way in that loses site of the ocean. I think it serves as a nice transitional hole to the finish that follows. This hole plays mostly downwind in the summer (the wind may be coming at a slight cross angle.) The hole is easily reachable with two well struk shots that avoid trouble in these conditions. The bunkers on the right side of the fairway will collect tee shots with too much on them. This includes clubs less than driver when the wind is blowing and the fairway is running fast (which is always when I've been there.) These bunkers are still better than the alternate fate of losing a ball in the gorse by hitting the tee shot too far left. The 2nd shot needs to clear the cross bunker, which is much farther away from the green than it first appears. If it does so, there is a good chance it will run up near the green.
There is not a bunker to be found around the green. The green really needs no defense beyond what is currently provided. The surrounds fall away from the green on all sides, except for directly beyond where there is actually a little ramp that can run a ball back onto the putting surface. The single mound near the front right entrance to the green can complicate things quite a bit. As I mentioned on a previous post, I've been next to this green in two and walked away with an eight on the scorecard. It's not a great place to yip the chips.
From the tee. You can see the bunkers on the right (just in front of the gorse) that like to collect tee shots.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD15Tee.jpg)
A wide view from the fairway. The right bunkers are better viewed in this photo.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD15Approachwide.jpg)
Another view of the approach
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-15Approach.jpg)
Yet another view of the approach. From this angle, the final bunker still looks much closer to the green than it really is
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD15Approach.jpg)
From this view of the final bunker you can see just how much room there is between the bunker and the green. This photo also provides a decent look at the knob guarding the front right approach.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD15Approach2.jpg)
A shot from behind the green.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-15Green-1.jpg)
Another view from a slightly different angle
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD15Green.jpg)
Finally, from the long grass behind the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD15Lookback2.jpg)
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Tim:
The gorse bushes in the left foreground of your first photo are mostly gone now ... we have cleaned out probably 60% of the gorse between this hole and #6 at Old Macdonald, which plays parallel with this hole in the opposite direction. We did still keep some gorse tight to the landing area on the left, so you still have to flirt with going in the gorse if you're trying to get home in two, but there is more leeway for short hitters now.
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Tim,
My first recollection of 15 is that standing on the tee, there seems to be plenty of room out there so "let it fly", especially if the wind is cooperating. It is easy to try to open up too much and end up in trouble, which for me, is usually to the left in those circumstances (unlike you, I am a righty).
It is one of those great little par 5s that you feel you should dominate but it just does not happen!I think that is because, on the second shot, assuming a good drive, it seems too easy to get there and so you become careless. The lack of greenside bunkers and the incline up to the green make it look simple but as with most holes on this course, it is far to easy to mess up.
Love it and look forward to going again.
Thanks again for all of this.
Bob J
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What I love about 15 is the way it seduces you when you have a tail wind. You try to get a little extra off the tee and the landing area narrows dangerously at just the right point. So, now you've busted a drive and have a chance to reach in two. The hole looks wide open and inviting. The problem is the green accepts almost no run up shots. Most of us right handers miss right on a long approach shot which leaves you on the bad side of the knob. At that point you wish you had the Phil flop shot in your bag -- so you end up making bogey or worse from 20 yards short of the green. The better play is to miss far left and then you can have a half wedge to a much more receptive green. At this point I've always struggled a bit as I find this green pretty simple, but hard to read exacly what a putt will do. In the end, I feel like birdie should be pretty easy if you execute your shots, but the hole seems to get the better of me most of the time.
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A couple of random thoughts on 15:
The gorse that use to be behind the fairway bunkering on the right was removed 2 seasons ago, and IMO weakened the hole a bit. It use to be if you bailed a little right with your tee shot your reward was a blind shot over bunker and gorse. Now you can hit it anywhere in the fairway and still see the green.
The 'hump' on the short right side of green might be the best green side hazard on the course. The options you have from there present some of the difficulty. And most players there in two think they should get up and down easily, and the space the 'up' part.
Standing on the green looking back down the fairway you can't see any of the bunkers, they disappear. A really neat affect that adds to the frustration level for golfers on this hole. Leaving the green looking back down the fairway, golfers can't help but think they should have made a better number.
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Either this thread is running out of steam, or else the last few holes are not the most compelling on the course. I guess we'll find out which it is when we get to #16. ;)
About the only thing I have to add on this hole is that it was the hole Mr. Keiser was most worried about being up to class, from the time we started the project. I thought that was weird, because he always said "Foxy" was his favorite hole in the world and I always thought of this green as "Foxy" twisted toward the line of play ...
The green was indeed a natural plateau; the plateau was just three feet higher then than it is today. (If you walk off the back of the green, when you walk up to the third deck in the rough, that was the original elevation of the whole thing.) We couldn't leave it that high because nobody would have ever played a run-up. Incidentally, I've seen a run-up work ... the best shot I saw in the Curtis Cup was hit by one of the English girls in the singles matches, a 4-wood from about 250 yards that bounced just short of the plateau and ran up to ten feet, which she needed to keep the match going.
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The thread runs out of steam every weekend, which is why I slowed down the pace a bit recently. When I post a hole on Friday and one on Sunday, no one has time to comment on the one posted Friday. This weekend was likely compounded with the holiday. I'll probably post #16 Monday evening as the 4th of July crowd has a chance to trickle back in with commentary.
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Tom:
I'll add one more thought/question since 3, 12, and 15 have now been profiled.
A fellow GCA poster who has played PD suggested to me that 3, 12 and 15 were basically used as the part of the routing that took golfers from the dunesy area of (most of) the front nine (and the latter parts of the back nine), to the coastal holes, notably the 4th and 13th. He described the area of these three par 5s as a broad plain, that had to be traversed as kind of a transition zone from the more visually arresting parts of the course.
Is that a fair characterization of the land for those three holes? Could the land have been used in other ways? The holes seem, from the pictures, as perhaps wider than several other holes.
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It is not uncommon at all for me (and others I play with) to run, or bump, the ball onto the green, at least when the cup is located in the front and the wind is at our back.
I love playing into this green, and what I most want to avoid is leaving the ball right of the green. From there the play is nearly always a putter, especially if the cup is in the front. What you must avoid doing is playing back and forth from one side to the other.
Playing a second into the wind holds the challenge of clearing the lefthand fairway bunker, forcing play right, which is not the preferred side to play into the green from.
Good hole, fun, one that you can take for granted and get slapped for........underrated, IMO.
Tom........I saw that same Curtis Cup play as you, and one other time an American player from about 50 yards played a wedge to a front cup and chunked it, and lost the hole.
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#16 is a par 4
338 from the black tee and the green tee
This one has always fallen toward the bottom of my list of holes at Pacific Dunes. I don't think it is the worst hole on the course (I'm not sure what is) but it is far from the best in my opinion. If it didn't share short par 4 bragging rights with #6, it might fare better. As it stands, #6 is so good that it is the one I walk away discussing. If you've got the game to pull the driver and crush it with accuracy, then you might have an advantage to be gained off the tee. Otherwise, it is directly to "The Land of 10,000 Divots" for all but the worst struck shots (which could be in a fairway bunker left, a fairway bunker long, or way right left or right (and often lost.)
The fairway here is something to behold. It looks like they could host the Olympic Ski Mogul event here. The green is tricky at best and evil when it rears its ugly head. It's not very big and it is very difficult to hit with any type of short approach, including the preferred bump and run when the summer wind is blowing over your shoulder. In reviewing my regular group's scores at Pacific Dunes this evening, I'm surprised to see that this hole plays as the 3rd hardest on the course for us. I guess we need to practice our short games!
From the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-16Tee.jpg)
A typical view of the approach when hitting a hybrid or fairway wood from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-16Approach.jpg)
A personal favorite view of this hole from the distant left side of the hole
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD16Approachwide.jpg)
One more view of the approach in the shadows and the dangerous recovery that awaits if you miss the green to the right on the approach (this area on the right side is also where drives that fall just short of the target will collect.)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD16Approach.jpg)
A look at the green (and the wild fairway in the background)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-16Green.jpg)
A view from behind the hole. Here you can see the fall-off behind the green and another angle of the nasty right-side recovery shot
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-16Lookback.jpg)
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Were these two photos taken at the same time? The trees visible in the first photo seem to be missing in the second photo, or is that an illusion?
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-16Tee.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-16Green.jpg)
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look closer they are still there.....
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I think the issue is that the trees in the first photo look closer to the green than they really are. They are the same trees that appear to be well in the distance in the second photo - you can tell they are the same if you look at how there are two closely grouped and a bit removed from the others (and also look at the tree-top pattern.) Many of these photos were taken at different times, but the two you asked about were indeed taken on the same day.
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Tim,
Love the photo from the left bunker!
Like #6 this hole utilizes the maximum length allowed between two land features at the tee and the green. The premium drive at the 6th must challenge the hillside and right side bunker to have the best angle for the green. At the 16th your challenge is to hit the ball as close to the bushes on the left side to get the best angle. At the 6th a miss brings the large front bunker into play, here a miss right brings the hillside into play. On both holes the green is angled. Almost mirror image startegy.
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Even though it is bad strategy, I usually try to drive the green, and usually end up right of the green with a 30-50 yard pitch from well below the hole in deep grass. I make 4 about 2/3 of the time from there.
I've heard the best way to drive the green is with a 1-iron or 3-wood directly over the corner bunker. Catch the exact right set of bounces and it will roll onto the green.
I have made birdie with 5-wood to left side, pitching wedge at the flag. I don't go that way very often. I guess it's because I'm a little worried about pulling one too far left.
Tricky green, tough greenside bunker. Not an easy hole.
Last thought: The numerous small depressions where balls collect in the fairway are littered with divots. In my opinion, it is a bit too easy to land in a divot on this hole.
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I'm with Kirk, in my 2 rounds here, I've gone for the green. Hit to 12 feet in my 1st round, long grass right on my 2nd. Birdied 1st round, doubled second. I'm thinking I'll hit my hybrid off the tee next time. Good risk reward hole for long drives.
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One of my favorite holes....made me think and the fairway reminded me of Highland links...RHE
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Have you guys played the hole into the wind? Totally different strategy then, isn't it?
See, downwind I too have always gone for the green - it's not that hard to actually get on, at least the left side, and well...I just find the shot too fun to resist. That being said, missing short right is not a happy fate - it's a very tough pitch usually played out of a divot. But heck, no guts no glory....
Into the wind I can't make it no way no how, so the decision becomes where to try to leave the tee shot. And I have yet to figure that out really.
In any case I too love this hole - I think it's 2nd only to #6 in my personal faves on the course.
TH
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I have been following this thread with a certain jump of delight. Two things really stand out for me. First, the greens have a lovely mottled colour. It really reminds me of a proper links. Secondly, I like how many of the greens just flow into the course (or is it vice versa?). When I see a pic like the one below it really does intimate to me that golf and how to play it are top of the menu.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD8Approach.jpg)
Carry on boys!
Ciao
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Sean - I feel quite confident in saying you would love Pacific Dunes.
Just try not to look at the prices, however. That might ruin it.
TH
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Sean,
What is suggested but cannot be known through photos is just how incredible the playing conditions are at Pacific Dunes (and indeed at all three Bandon courses). While it's not linksland per se, Pacific Dunes is no faux links. The greens aren't fast, but they're firm and very true. The fairways are tight but a little springy too, just like the Irish links I've played. And, as you noted, the blending in of the fairways and greens looks tremendous. The folks (like Tom Jefferson) at Bandon do a fantastic job.
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Tim,
I'm sorry to say that I don't share the same opinion with you on this hole. This is one of my favs on the course and absolutly love it.
After first playing this hole I had a different reaction, but when looking at it in retrospect, I was only bit in the ass because I didn't realize how to play it. It could be the toughest 40 yard chip to a green from a fairway lie that you will ever have. Even though Tom admitted in Dream Golf that its a bit unfair, that could only be said the 1st time you play it because after that you know better right?
In many ways its similar to the 10th at Riv in strategy:
- Standing on the tee it looks like the play is to go right at the green, but once you get up there its very obvious its not.
- The safe play is indeed out to the left to open up the best angle into the green.
- Driving just short of the green leaves a very difficult approach with little chance for birdie and just hoping to save par.
- Successfully challenging the green on its left side can lead to a very doable birdie if not eagle with a pin on the left.
- Even with a successful layup out to the left, its still a butt puckering wedge approach in missing right, long, or left are all pretty much dead.
I think the hole is brillant and its once again one of those mind game kind of holes. Your standing on the tee, short par 4, wind behind, and your licking your chops. Then when you walk off with a double bogey your muttering to yourself.
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Sean - I feel quite confident in saying you would love Pacific Dunes.
Just try not to look at the prices, however. That might ruin it.
TH
Tom
I have every intention of visiting Bandon someday, but it is a tough place to get to. So it could take many a year and a bit of luck. I don't mind going out of season. If the place really is a links then it should play superbly and perhaps even better than in the summer. Besides, I am not the sort who wants to go on a forced march of 54 holes per day - its not my style - so the winter works.
Tim
It is evident from the pix that the course looks a treat and is often in good nick.
Ciao
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Have to disagree with Mr. Bert regarding #16.
I think that #16 is the best hole on the course.
I think it is MUCH better than #6.
I don't know if #16 is my favorite, but I do think that it is the best hole at PD.
There is no right way to play it, at least I couldn't find one.
The angles are maddening.
The options from the tee are almost endless.
And i don't mean silly options, there are really a bunch of different ways to attack the hole. And for all the benefits that one strategy might offer, it also brings with it a number of problems. . .
I think that #16 is fantastic.
In my opinion, this is the hole that shows Mr. Doak's skill better than any of the others.
It is the best short par 4 that I've ever played. . . again, I put it waaaay ahead of #6.
-Ted
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Sean:
The course does play wonderfully year-round, for sure. And at least for now, prices are still reasonable off-season. The weather can be trying, but heck it would be nothing you haven't seen even at the worst.
Just don't wait too long. I do not foresee these prices remaining static.
Ted: interesting, I love 6. I can see someone preferring 16, but to put it "waaaaaay ahead of #6", that seems extreme to me. Is it that you don't like 6, or just really love 16?
TH
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This one has always fallen toward the bottom of my list of holes at Pacific Dunes. I don't think it is the worst hole on the course (I'm not sure what is) but it is far from the best in my opinion. If it didn't share short par 4 bragging rights with #6, it might fare better. As it stands, #6 is so good that it is the one I walk away discussing. If you've got the game to pull the driver and crush it with accuracy, then you might have an advantage to be gained off the tee. Otherwise, it is directly to "The Land of 10,000 Divots" for all but the worst struck shots (which could be in a fairway bunker left, a fairway bunker long, or way right left or right (and often lost.)
The fairway here is something to behold. It looks like they could host the Olympic Ski Mogul event here. The green is tricky at best and evil when it rears its ugly head. It's not very big and it is very difficult to hit with any type of short approach, including the preferred bump and run when the summer wind is blowing over your shoulder. In reviewing my regular group's scores at Pacific Dunes this evening, I'm surprised to see that this hole plays as the 3rd hardest on the course for us. I guess we need to practice our short games!
Tim B,
With respect, it sounds like you haven't yet figured out the best way for you to play the hole (I'm not sure I have either). As Kalen said, the lay-up option to the left of the fairway is a pretty good way to gain a good angle and avoid the hollow, although the pitch to firm ground with trouble left, right and long is a difficult one. That the hole plays difficultly for your group is testament to its brilliance, IMO.
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The best feature on the 16th is the angle of the green to the fairway. To have a save approach (assuming you can't reach the green and want a fuller shot), you to need to be left and as close to the shrubs as possible to avoid an approach to a narrow target.
Sean - your views on getting to Bandon are no different then some of us trying to get to certain parts of Scotland ...
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16 would be better on a course with less play, where the omnipresent threat of finding yourself in a divot in one of the collection areas would not be as great.
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Guys - no need to go to attack mode! I was bound to list one of these holes as one of my lesser favorites eventually. If you guys can't figure out that the real issue is that I just love the other holes too much, then you haven't been reading closely enough!
I think the extreme diverse opinions coming out here are just another sign of the course's greatness.
Worst and least favorite are all relative terms. As for the comments that I just haven't figured out how to best play the hole - well that could be said for most of the holes out there. Actually, I have a pretty good idea. My execution just stinks. Such is life for a 10 - 12 handicap.
I'm just enjoying how many strong opinions this one is bringing out.
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Tim B,
I made the comment about possibly not knowing the best way for you to play the hole because your initial post re: #16 implied that the only option off the tee was to bang driver and hope you don't end up in the divot-filled hollow. I view the lay-up left option as a very viable way to play the hole so I wondered whether you had given that enough consideration. I wasn't trying to be an ass.
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Do you guys reckon the hole might play better if it were wider? Clear out the crap around the green and keep the grass short there. Its hard to tell from the pix. I can say I don't like the look of the stuff around the green.
Ciao
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Do you guys reckon the hole might play better if it were wider? Clear out the crap around the green and keep the grass short there. Its hard to tell from the pix. I can say I don't like the look of the stuff around the green.
Ciao
No. I think it works perfectly as it is. Take out the stuff around the green and it becomes just a brainless bombs away - at least to some extent. The trouble short right would still exist obviously, but absent danger left it's just too easy of a shot.
TH
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Sean,
I think the green complex and surrounds are perfectly fine as is being a short hole.
The only thing I would change is the size of the two main collection areas on the right side of the fairway. As it is now, these two collection areas will funnel into a relativly small spot on each one where you are almost guaranteed a lie in a divot. Perhaps break them up into smaller swales and multiple collection areas so your chance of being in a divot is reduced.
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I spose I was thinking of a mega version of some of the greens at Pinehurst as the green seems to have falloffs left and right. Its dead easy to find oneself going a bit back n' forth on that course even though there "isn't any trouble about".
Ciao
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Tim P -
No offense taken to any previous comments.
I don't have the skill to play the "crush the drive" option because I don't have the distance or the accuracy. I was observing that this was likely the preferred approach for skilled players, and Tom H rightfully pointed out that is only viable in the summer.
I'm more in the camp of hybrid off the tee to the land of 10,000 divots (which I also mentioned in my original post) which I think is the appropriate play for me. Actually, I've had the most success here with driver off the tee, which for me gets me further left and deep for a better angle to the hole.
I just think there's way too much else that's cool going on at PacDunes to put this amongst my favorites.
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Tim Bert,
I hope my post wasn't read as an "attack mode" response.
It certainly wasn't meant that way.
This thread has been one of my all time GCA favorites and your opinions are a big part of what makes it so much fun to read. . .
Huck,
I'm not in love with #6.
Seems too harsh to me.
Too little room to manuever the 2nd shot.
It is very "all or nothing" and I don't think I love many holes like that.
I'm not sure what you can do with your drive on #6 to make the second shot more playable.
Bolied down, I see #6 as:
drive it somewhere right of the green, hit a wedge, and hope.
And I see #16 on the very opposite end of that spectrum.
-Ted
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Ted:
Excellent, much appreciated.
I do disagree pretty much completely, however. I see as many options and ways to play 6 as I do 16, if not more.
Funny how golf holes can be seen so differently.
TH
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I'm curious.
For those who have played 16 in both prevailing winds, which one would be your preference. Downwind in summer, or a mostly headwind coming out of the right in the winter?
I'm thinking downwind because in the winter time if you come up short and go down into the PD "valley of sin", then it won't be good times.
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Kalen:
I'd say it's quite a bit easier downwind. Oh, the green does get tough to hold, for sure.... but with any sort of a strong drive you have a pretty darn short shot in. Into the wind it can get scary hard just because it plays so much longer. Like Charlie said: Driver-6iron and then blown into the gorse.
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I'd agree with that, Charlie - every hole is gonna be easier downwind just because it will play so much shorter and the ball will generally go straighter as well. Into the wind anything can happen.
Back when we were talking about 14, I thought that might play tougher downwind given it's so tough to stop the ball on the green downwind... but rethinking that, heck the universe of outcomes into the wind is MASSIVE there also... so again, it's likely tougher into the wind even there. That's just a particularly hard downwind shot, that's all. As is the pitch into 16, and into 6 - downwind. But each can be made so short so as to negate the stopping difficulty.
TH
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I think 16 is a fine hole. It comes at a point in the round where you may be either trying to win a match or post a score, and that adds to the challenge of the second shot, which I've found is one of those that requires commitment or you pay the price--the green is the only option for a decent chance at par or better since the bunker or the rightside pit are dead. Note that I've only played the hole into the winter wind, so I'm approaching from a ways back. Having to hit a properly judged and struck iron into that breeze is no bargain! The tee shot is only somewhat challenging by contrast--I've hit into the divot filled mine field most times. I also think the green is more difficult than it looks; being above the hole can be tough in some parts of the green.
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I think there is 1 hole at PD that most would likely prefer into the wind and that is #11. With an elevated green, a nasty bunker short, and long shaggy stuff long, I think that hole likely plays easier into the wind. Its short enough where even a average-to-short knocker like me can still hit 7 iron into that green with the prevailing summer wind.
Holding that green playing it downwind would take a minor miracle and god forbid they ever used a red pin with the prevailing winter wind. ;D
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Hmmm....
I'd still take 11 downwind.
Into the wind that can be a freakin 2iron, as short as it is. I know, I've played it as such. But even outside the extreme like that, the problem remains that headwinds magnify side to side spin.. and that is NOT a green you want to miss to either side.
TH
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Is this 16th the most quirky hole at PB? Does it have the most rub-of-the-green factor?
I initially didn't like this hole BECAUSE of the severe undulations in the fairways and not seeing a clear landing area to play a "safe" shot (including a flat lie). But, like most things at BD, it's growing on me....
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Rub of the green?
16th green is just plain brutal. I have seen more over and down the hill on this hole than #6.
Par is a good score. I also hit driver. I want as short a shot into this green as possible.
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I'll be honest. The more I play this hole the less I like it. I love 6 and like 14 at Bandon Trails, but this one is jyst too severe. I wish you could bounce it in from the land of 10000 divots....
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16 is a MUCH easier hole into the wind. You can actually stop a full shot on the green.....
Other random thoughts--
I think a divot filled collection area is a great greenside hazard on a short par 4. Almost as diabolical as the hump on 15's green.
IMO the reason this hole gives people fits is because everyone is always trying to get it close from everywhere. Play for the left greenside collection area. From the fairway, from pin high right. Try and make a 4 or at worst a 5. Its a hard hole if your trying to make birdie.
The similarities between 6 and 16 end with the fact that they are 'card' short par 4's. They play in opposite wind directions. 6 is all about preserving a decent angle into the green. 16 is mostly about thinking outside the conventional.
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I've played five rounds at Bandon - none at PD - and 4 were in a moderate wind with the other over 30 mph constant. Playing in October I think we had the summer wind one day and the winter wind the others. I would almost always rather play a hole into a moderate wind on a links course (assuming I can still reach the green in regulation) because it provides better distance control when hitting to the green. Downwind is so much harder to judge the correct landing spot when the ball is running out - and sometimes you may not be able to hold the green at all. My one exception might be to a par 5 I want to reach in two.
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#17 is a par 3
208 from the black tee
189 from the green tee
The 4th and final par 3 on the back nine rounds out one of the finest sets of par 3s I've played. The summer wind is usually coming against you from the left side. It has played as both primarily a cross wind and a head wind on different days. I've played just about everything from a 3-wood to a 7-iron on this hole, depending upon wind and where they've got the green tee on any given day. The surrounding area from the tee is something to behold. Much of the natural beauty comes from the gorse-filled dune behind the green that drifts into more of a natural looking sand dune further left in the distance. (Side note: Is that dune being used as part of OMD and if so, will it retain its natural appeal or is it being shaped into something else?)
A ball struck to the right of the green really wants to feed onto the green, though depending upon the strength of the wind this can be hard to properly accomplish. Ideally for all but the most extreme left pin positions I think one would want to aim at the right-center or right portion of the green, allow the summer wind to take it slightly more to the right, and then have the bank run the ball back to the putting surface. The bunkers guarding the front of the green can be difficult, and in the strongest winds many of the gorse patches short, right, or long can come into play. We've lost more than one ball off to the right side where there are some mowed down strips between rows of gorse.
The 5th, 10th, 11th, and 14th all have a lot of appeal to me, so it is hard to rank this hole individually ahead of any of the par 3s that have preceeded it, yet it is also difficult for me to believe this is the worst par 3 on the course. I'll simply refrain from ranking them, but I'm interested to hear others thoughts on the order of preference.
My picture set of #17 is amongst my least favorite. I've got some work to do here in 2009.
From the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-17Green.jpg)
A wider view
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD17Teewide.jpg)
One last view in evening light
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD17Tee.jpg)
A really poor picture of part of the green (but I don't have great views of this green, so I'll share whatever I've got!)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-17Green-1.jpg)
A little better view of the green, though the light is quickly fading. To the left, you can see the landing pad just off the green that will usually direct balls to the putting surface.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-TPBBall17Green.jpg)
One more picture of the green with little light. I hope you have a bright, HD screen.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD17Sunset.jpg)
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I'm the one responsible for more than half of the right gorse visits Tim references. I've also visited the left gorse, the front bunker and pretty much everywhere else one doesn't want to be except for the really short bunker. Tim even questioned why that was there and one of our playing partners promptly found it.
This hole absolutely killed me the first two trips to Bandon (I'm pretty sure i averaged worse than double bogey). As a lefty who generally draws the ball, this hole does not favor the left to right shot (at least in the summer cross wind).
While not as specatcular as the views on #10 and #11, this is still a picturesque hole, particuarly in the shadows of the late evening.
I like the different challenge it presents after the previous two holes where just getting the ball onto the green from anywhere requires a lot of precision. This green at least looks big after having played #16, and there are places to miss where one can recover for a par.
Since the hole has given me such fits, the tee shot on #17 is one of those shots I'm thinking about well beforehand. But I'm thinking about it in a looking forward way as opposed to being scared of it (the tee shot on #1 just scares me). It's one of my favorite shots to hit on the course but I can't fully explain why.
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I absolutely love this hole and find it very challenging and intimidating. I found the prevailing wind from the ocean made this hole very hard to club. I bailed right during my 1st round and found that I could easily putt from way off the green. I nearly holed the putt. I went for the sucker left pin during my second and paid dearly when I landed the deep frontside bunker. I think the play is the right side of the green regardless of where the pin is located.
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I think the Redan-like #17 is my second favorite par three at Pacific Dunes after #11. The placement of the greensite is just tremendous. The deep front bunker is visually intimidating and a real hazard should you find it, but one should really never be there since the play is well to the right. I've always found the conditions to be proper so that the Redan effect works to take the ball right to left down the green in varying degrees depending on where the ball lands and on the trajectory--just what one wants in this type of hole. This hole is a real treat to play.
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Tom D said once a great way to play a redan is to go long left and have an easy uphill chip back to the green.
On 16, I did this on accident after I pulled my tee shot and ended up long left. The pitch shot was not too tough and I got it up and down for a par.
Otherwise the only way I can see playing this hole with the prevailing summer wind is to hit a hard draw(as a right hander) into the wind and hope you guess right to get it close to the hole as its a massive green so 3 putting is very easy to do.
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All ya gotta do is pop about a 160 yd, low trajectory shot over the really short bunker. It'll hit, bounce bounce bounce and roll up on the green.
Don't ever attempt to fly it at the pin or onto the green, that's NOT how you play this type of hole.
Yet for some reason I can't ever do that.....
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I think that if Doak had known how Golfclubatlas would create this odd set of architectural intellectuals who would wrongly call this hole a redan he would never would have built it like he did. I see the hole as a failure because if it is a redan it is a very, very poor one. I should only see the hole for what it is and not what you book readers wish it to be. Is there any evidence beyond the slope of the green that this is a redan? Will the value of this hole decrease in your mind if a great redan is built at Old Macdonald?
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John:
This is as accurate of a guess as you have ever made here. :)
Originally the site for the green was very much north-and-south with the severe drop to the left -- the left half of today's green is all fill. From the start we were trying NOT to build a Redan (because we've been there and done that) and we really didn't want any holes that were too easily comparable to other famous courses.
But, we tried two or three versions of a golf hole using the natural ground for the green site, and with the combination of the prevailing wind -- strongly into you but somewhat left-to-right -- and the hard drop immediately to the left of the green, everything we tried seemed impossible. For the longest time, Urbina and I avoided even saying the word "Redan" as an option, but finally we agreed that we had to build a green that was banked from right to left -- not so you could hit the run-up shot described above, but so you could hit a big high fade riding the wind and have enough bank for a backstop to stop the ball. So, the Redanlike 17th was born.
In the winter, I would try to play well short of the green and let the ball feed down there, but in summer I just hit a big high straight ball at the back left corner of the green, and let the wind blow it back into the bank. Incidentally, that's the same way I play the Redan at North Berwick and the one at National.
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Whether or not No. 17 is a Redan, it has qualities of a Redan and works very well, IMO.
I can't quite put my finger on it, but Nos. 17 and 18 have a slightly different feel to me than the rest of the course (which isn't to say they are in any way jarring or disrupt the flow). I'm tempted to say they're brawnier, but holes like Nos. 4, 7 and 13 aren't lacking in brawn. I don't know what it is, but I have a different feeling when I leave No. 16 green.
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Tom,
Thanks, calling holes redans makes me feel like when ordering a venti at Starbucks.
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JK,
I would agree, its likely not a redan, but it does have redan-like properties in both look and playability.
With this "odd set of architectual intellectuals" that have been talking about this hole, I think the comparisons to a redan are fair in terms of understanding the hole and gaining insight as to how to play it. I hadn't thought about the high fade route, perhaps I'll try it next time.
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I can't see a situation where a left to right shot is a good play on this golf hole. But it's interesting that part of the building does allow for a safety mechanism for that commonly played shot, whether intentional or not.
And it's also surely not a redan. But it's also a pretty darn cool golf hole. I like it.
TH
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The 17th is definitely a tee shot with "high entertainment value". Two players can hit the same club and depending on the angle of attack into the wind and the altitude of the ball get results 50 yards and more in disparity. And having an entire foursome talking to the ball in flight IS entertaining!
The best play in the summer is attacking the left half of the green and let the slightly left to right quartering wind ride the ball safely to the green. But don't forget to study the wind for the correct angle, as the safety zone is front right of the green.
The green itself is a paradox as the left half somewhat predictably rolls right to left towards the back left corner, while the right half is much trickier to read, especially with the summer wind moving the rolling ball quite a bit.
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And it's also surely not a redan. But it's also a pretty darn cool golf hole. I like it.
TH
Why not? No l-r option?
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No fortress, not enough bank in from the right, etc.
Heck if someone wants to call it a redan, fair enough. But methinks it speaks loudly when the architect himself does not.
;)
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No fortress, not enough bank in from the right, etc.
Heck if someone wants to call it a redan, fair enough. But methinks it speaks loudly when the architect himself does not.
;)
The architect called it Redanlike, as did I. It has some features of a Redan but not all of them. 'Nuff said.
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No fortress, not enough bank in from the right, etc.
Heck if someone wants to call it a redan, fair enough. But methinks it speaks loudly when the architect himself does not.
;)
The architect called it Redanlike, as did I. It has some features of a Redan but not all of them. 'Nuff said.
That works.
I am godlike. I am not God.
;D
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Tom,
Of course that works.
I'm Christ-like in that I hang out with the sinners...I'm just not J.C. himself!!
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#18 is a par 5
591 from the black tee
575 from the green tee
This is one of those holes that has gotten harder for me over time as I've become more aware of just how dangerous it can be. The first time I played the hole, the green tee was up on the high tee that plays from about 600 yards. I birdied the hole to shoot 39 on the back nine (which matched nicely with my 54 on the front nine.) That afternoon, I made bogey from the same tee and went home even par on the hole for the trip.
The next 3 times I played the hole, it was not up on the high tee (it never has been since that first trip.) The yardage was probably about 550. I made 9, 10, 9. Welcome to #18 at Pacific Dunes. I've since made two more pars on the hole, but I've come to learn that anything goes on the hole and much of it starts with the tee shot.
The summer wind is "assisting" on this hole, but that is a bad choice of words. The wind brings all the trouble into play from the tee. Terrorizing bunker left. Bunkers on the right. Sand dunes. Some gorse. It's all there to tally up the strokes in a hurry. That being said, the fairway is pretty generous, so all you've got to do is strike the ball with some confidence to score. The second shot is probably going to be mostly blind depending upon where your tee shot lands and where you want to go with the second one. Everything on this hole feels like it was done in a much bigger fashion than the rest of the course. Bigger does not equal better. In this case, it just feels different to me. The final blow comes when the player gets the green in sight for the first time. One of the most unforgiving bunkers I've ever seen guards a shot missed to the right. There are plenty of places in that bunker that allow for recovery, but there is also a small portion that leaves you feeling hopeless. It's an "aim left and take your chances with the other trouble" bunker. The green is well protected by bunkers on both sides, and also deep, but there is plenty of room to run your shot into the green from the air or the ground.
In recent trips, I've gotten too hung up on completing a score on this hole to really appreciate it like I did the first time around. No experience was worse that the third time around in 2005. I stepped up to the 18th tee needing par to shoot 87 despite an earlier quadruple bogey, double bogey, and a 10 on #4. I had not yet broken 90 on the course in 5 previous tries. I needed only double bogey to do so. I walked off the course with a 91 that round. My love-hate relationship continues with the course to this day. In 9 tries, I've yet to get it done on the course that I adore so dearly.
If anyone has any nice photos of the fairway bunker, please feel free to post. I'm usually too busy trying to hit out of them to take photos.
The view from the tee
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-18Tee.jpg)
The approach shot to the green
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-18Approach.jpg)
Another view of the approach from further right. The bunker on the right is looming from this angle.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-18Approach-1.jpg)
From inside the most angry of all bunkers on the course
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-18Bunker.jpg)
Looking back at the beautiful green site - if this doesn't make you want to head directly back to the first tee, then I'm not sure what will.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-18Green.jpg)
Feel free to discuss the 18th as well as the course in its entirety at this point. I've got a few more photos that I'll share next weekend with differet views sweeping across the course and we'll see who can identify the holes and views. After I finish posting the miscellaneous pictures of Pacific Dunes, we'll get started on the Bandon Dunes thread and see if we can generate similar interest in the discussion. Then I'll finish the trilogy later this summer with Bandon Trails.
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The approach shot to the 18th hole plays very short. With a 5-10 mph following breeze, 170 yards to the hole might be a 9-iron. It's downhill, the green slopes away, the ball bounds off the firm turf readily onto the green. As a result, that recessed left greenside bunker is always a consideration.
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Tim,
Thanks very much for this thread. It has been one of the highlights for me on GCA.
I look forward to the other 2.
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Sorry I missed #17. Anywhere left of that green is dead. With no wind my shot caught the left bunker and I nearly made a miraculous up and down. My brother's shot was heading straight for the hole (I have a great picture of him posing like he's just hit the shot of his life) only to have it roll all the way down left of the bunker. My dad's shot was a low slice that I thought had no chance and it ended up rolling tight. Short right is clearly the play with no wind.
Again if anyone could direct me to link for how to post pictures I have couple of outstanding ones of the fairway bunker on #18 from the time I spent in it.
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Again if anyone could direct me to link for how to post pictures I have couple of outstanding ones of the fairway bunker on #18 from the time I spent in it.
just type in: (img)http://www.url.com/filename.jpg(/img) <<< but replace ( with [ and ) with ]
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Great thread, Tim. And thanks to all for providing such vivid commentary. I can't wait to see the course come November.
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Cory,
I use PhotoBucket, which makes things easy. You just upload your photos to the site, then there is a handy-dandy image link under each one that you copy and paste into the test here.
If you can't make it work, you are welcome to email your pictures to me and I will post them. You can link my email with the icon on the left side of my posts.
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Great thread and tremendous contribution by Tim Bert.
I have only played Bandon in the winter months. In the winter wind, 18 is a most demanding three-shotter. It seems to take a great drive, followed by a thoughtful but still long second shot. A five will usually win the hole.
Despite the demands, the hole is still fun. It is just honestly tough. It is a great way to finish up 36 - makes you feel like you have earned the cold beer that is moments away.
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In the summer finishing up 36 means it is time to head to the first tee to play the evening foursomes!
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By the time we played Pacific recently (me on the bag, summer tailwind out of the north) I had the trust of my player and simply handed him his 130 yard club.....from 180 yards. He had about 15 feet left, so as we were walking down the fairway I asked, "would you have hit that club if I told you you were 180 to the flag?" The answer of course was "No!" and therein lies the LAST challenge of 18 at Pac.
The tee shot is deceptive in the accuracy required. Balls can bound both left and right into trouble. The 2nd shot then over or past the dune on the left is VERY directionally exacting (with a sloping fairway willing to lead balls into trouble right), leaving an approach shot to the green for which yardage seems almost irrelevant.
Suffice it to say, the approach shot is links golf at its best, with the sloping runway approaching the green on the left from 40 yards out used as the landing area and the ramp between the two bunkers long / left as a backstop if necessary.
PHENOMENAL finishing hole!
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My favorite feature of #18 is one that David B. alluded to just above, but not specifically -- there is a big roll in the right-center of the fairway, right about at the landing area for a drive. If you just aim down the middle, that roll kicks you down to the left, so you have to hit over the big bunkers for your second. You have to aim down the right side, just a bit too close for comfort to the hillside, unless you are confident you will clear the roll.
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This is a general question about the course for Tom Doak.....there are a few "Tournament" tees on the course; do you have any other holes on the course, which if necessary for a high caliber tournament you could build an additional tee to stretch the hole further?
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David:
We've done the research, but my take on that has always been that it would make the course LESS appealing for the majority if we put in some more back tees for the minority. If they want to have a tournament they can always play the other courses ... including Old Macdonald.
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A few views from around the course to wrap things up...
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-2Pins.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-Random1.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-IntheShadows.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-IntheShadows2.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-IntheShadows3.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-IntheShadows4.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-ClubhousefromDistanceDusk.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-ClubhousefromDistance2.jpg)
To be continued...
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/OM1.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/OM2.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/OM3.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/OM4.jpg)
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/SundownonthePacific.jpg)
Hope you all get a chance to experience this some day. The pictures and the commentary don't do it justice.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD-Timsilhouette.jpg)
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I have one last picture to post. Cory Brown sent this nice image of the view from the ferocious 18th fairway bunker...
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/timgolfpics/PacDunes/PD18FWBunker.jpg)
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Patrick's favorite thread um...thread prompted this bump.
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Looking at that last picture of #18 fairway bunker, I have to ask. Is that a human skeleton in there? Has anyone ever been reported missing on the course?
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Holy hole in a donut Batman! We're on the 18th already!
What happened?
I snooze for a day and bang ... we're gone from 1st gear to NOZ.
Tim,
You in a hurry or something?
Oh wait a minute ... wrong thread. This isn't Kingsley...
Man I need to lay off the juice I think.
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You either slept for 6 months or you've got the wrong thread, my friend.
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No Tim. Just plain dense on my part ::)
That's the second dense moment in as many months.
Both you and Mike Benham have first dibs at slapping me silly the next we bump into each other.
Geez...
You either slept for 6 months or you've got the wrong thread, my friend.
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Since we're here, what do you think of the skull, rib cage, and leg bones in the bunker on the 18th? The more I look at that photo the creepier it gets.
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Since we're here, what do you think of the skull, rib cage, and leg bones in the bunker on the 18th? The more I look at that photo the creepier it gets.
The details are a bit hazy, but I swore she followed me out of there that night......
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Having played this hole twice in my life, I would have to say it is the hardest short par 4 I ever played. I was fortunate to play with Ari Techner and he knows the course very well and he told me the smart play up the right side. I hit a perfect drive and what I thought was a good second shot. I walk to the green to find a ranger dressed in orange standing 30 yards behind the green looking at my ball :( I hit another shot that I thought was perfect and it runs off the front. I learned that this green is not very deep and veryyy firm. The next time i really screwed myself and went left. With no chance of holding the green I sucked it up and went over the green to a wall of hell. I dont think i ever played a hole that looks so easy yet play so hard. What a great hole!!
I was just at Bandon with fellow GCAer Reef Wilson. Our threesome at Pacific Dunes was asked if we'd mind being joined by a single. Of course not, we replied... Our single turned out to be none other than Ari Techner -- on his way from Eugene to Scratch Golf's new facility in Chatanooga. Like Matt shared above, Ari's course knowledge was invaluable. Pretty good game too, especially with 6 clubs - all hickory.