Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: John Kavanaugh on May 20, 2008, 07:38:41 PM
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The couple of Foulis courses I have played seem to indicate that these guys were interested in a challenge. Wrong again?
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John -
this topic deserves some play. Sorry I can't help much. But I think the designer of Bellerive who is a direct link to Old Tom and his teachings and who was also a champion golfer is an interesting 'case study' into what some of the very early ideas and ideals about golf course architecture actually were. Maybe it comes down to the best players wanting to test the best players.
Peter
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Seems a fair question to me. Does anyone have more information on the original first hole at Prestwick? I believe it was his first course and he started it with a 578 yard monster in 1851. :o
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John:
Is there any possiblity you could rephrase your initial post so it makes some sense? ;)
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Tony
Old Tom was involved with Allan Roberson in extending Carnoustie in the late 1840's, but if my memory serves me correctly his first design was Dunbar. Prestwick modifications started in 1851ish.
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Tom:
See this GCA interview w/ St. Louis golf writer Jim Healey on the connection between the Foulis brothers and Old Tom:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewhealey.html
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"Bunkers are not places of pleasure, they are for punishment and repentance". Old Tom Morris.
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John
As usual I don’t follow exactly what you mean.
As far as Old Tom’s design credentials, he worked under and was taught by Alan Robertson from his teens. Alan is regarded by many as the first true golf professional. Old Tom had the best possible start by serving a four year apprentice to Alan before working with him for another 5 years as his assistant learning the skills of course design. How many other early designers could match that? None.
The majority of Old Tom’s courses were designed with the average golfer in mind, starting fairly easy into the round with the first few holes (with a few exceptions i.e. Prestwick & Machrihanish spring to mind). If I understand you correctly then NO, Old Tom was not the founder of the ball busting school of architecture.
Tony
As for Prestwick, there is a map on one of the earlier posts, showing I believe Old Tom’s 12 hole course in white, overlaid on today’s current course. Yes the original was 578 yards long. Last year on my visit to Prestwick, I was told that a stone monument near the clubhouse and parking area marks the original Tee. And that the current 16th is the original 1st Green. I may have a copy of the map, if I can find it I’ll e-mail you a copy.
Just for your information Young Tom scored a 3 on this hole in 1870 Open.
Hickory/Gutty equipment, I wonder how many of today’s top Pro’s can sink
a 3 using Young Tom’s clubs/balls or for that matter, even using modern equipment.
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Melvyn,
I was thinking about your notion that golf is a game of walking through nature bumping the ball along the ground with out a care in the world when it struck me how difficult the Foulis courses I have played seem to be. Glen Echo is the hardest course yard for yard I have every played and NLE Forest Park was so bizarre that they flipped it upside down and turned it around. I recently learned that in reality your views have nothing to do with Old Tom and relate more to the timing of the work of Alexander Fleming. To me the evidence is clear that golf is meant to be difficult and each day we water it down for the sake of growth or speed we distance ourselves from its true roots.
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John
No, Sorry. IMHO you have it wrong – you have totally missed my point and
don’t understand the way I play. You certainly have not been reading my posts. Golf is about challenge, it’s an adventure, testing and improving ones skill both on the ground and in the air, also possibly a test of character.
As far as ‘My view have nothing to do with Old Tom’ well what can I say.
You did not know that I was related to him until a few days ago, now you are an expert on my family.
You will excuse me, but I see nothing constructive in continuing this thread.
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John
All golf course architecture is ball busting. The game is hard. Old Tom was lucky to break 80 on 5000 yard courses in his day.
HOwever, one wonders, what would "ball caressing" architecture be like? Fairways shaped like a pair of open thighs? Mounding that........
Rich
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Melvyn,
Here is a link to my photo of old Prestwick map. The hole started seaward of the carpark and ended on the site of the current 16th green. The map is on the inside cover of Smail's Prestwick club history.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31220.msg608238.html#msg608238
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Peter
Many thanks
Melvyn