Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Ran Morrissett on May 19, 2008, 10:37:56 PM
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This topic came up in a round about way Sunday after golf at the mighty Royal & Ancient Southern Pines CC which is house-free except for one :'( three hundred yard stretch.
The gist was home sales have driven ALL golf course construction in the United States since World War II. I said no that’s not true as we have various private clubs and/or resort courses by Coore & Crenshaw, Tom Doak and Pete Dye to the contrary. I was then asked about Jack Nicklaus: what’s his best resort or private club with no homes on it? Is it Mayacama (I haven’t seen it so I don’t know)? Dismal River (which again I haven’t seen to be able to comment)?
The question interests me not so much for the sake of the answer of what singular course is the finest but rather what I perceive to be a lack of a quantity of such courses. I suppose Nicklaus Design has done north of 200 courses in the U.S. – what percent do you think fall in this category (mainland U.S. courses with no homes on it)? Is it under 10%? 5%? What is to be made of that?
Let’s leave collaborative efforts out.
Cheers,
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Just trying to think of a few.Breckenridge,which is owned by the town I believe.Does Valhalla have houses?
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I have played a handful of Nicklaus courses and Mayacama by far is my favorite of his.
I suspect he has a few good ones in the low country of SC, but I haven't played them.
Mayacama is a pretty special place though.
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I would think Dismal River. Lets hope he has something better than Mayacama.
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I like Shoal Creek. There are several homes in the woods, however these do not front the course.
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Desert Mountain Outlaw is a good candidate. Across the road from the 5 residential courses at DM.
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Just trying to think of a few.Breckenridge,which is owned by the town I believe.Does Valhalla have houses?
Unless things have changed over the last year or so, no houses on the course at Valhalla.
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I'm not sure what the actual percentage of Nicklaus courses in the U.S with no real estate would be, but what exactly is the percentage of ALL golf courses in the U.S without real estate? I might be wrong, but I'd like to think the two numbers are somewhat close.
Nicklaus Design does get its fair share of work tied to residential developement and I'm not sure "what is to be made of that" other than the fact that Jack Nickalus is a universally known name, known outside the golfing world (How many people buying in golf communites actually play the game). Joe Public probably has never heard of Tom Doak, Kidd, or Coore and Crenshaw (ok maybe crenshaw). The Nicklaus name is a greater marketing tool for developers looking to sell high end homes, so naturally these kinds of clients are drawn to the company.
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Does May River have houses on it?
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May River has homesites on the course. I doubt that there are many actual houses there now:
"Along the fringes of the Jack Nicklaus Signature Golf Course, 240 homesites, ranging in size from one-half acre to eight acres, offer a variety of spectacular views. Some properties overlook the golf course while others gaze out across the May River. Maritime forest, trails, salt marshes and inland lakes are all part of the dramatic landscape. May River Forest homes will connect to Wilson Village and other neighborhoods through the trail system."
The above from the website.
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Is it Mayacama (I haven’t seen it so I don’t know)?
Ran,
I don't know the number of homes on Mayacama. There are not very many; but they are there. And that number will rise as time goes by. The latest is just off the 10th fairway. Most of them are quite a way from the course; but the more recent construction is closer by. Cottages were built, I believe, in year 2. But they are not obtrusive, mainly concentrated near the clubhouse and the practice area.
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I think The Concession only has homes on one small part or side and well back from course. Sebonack only has the cottages if memory serves me correctly. I also like Mayacama and obviously better than Joel. lol All three are top level Jack designs and home freeish.
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I havent played any of the private ones mentioned above. Ocean Hammock, Reflection Bay, and Greenbriar don't have homes on them as far as I know--although Reflection Bay certainly has a lot of homes associated with it.
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Old Corkscrew
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Ocean Hammock definitely has homes on it now...I hit one of them ::)
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Reflection Bay resort course has homes on it. The Greenbrier does not have any home sites on the course (although Old White and the New Snead Course at the Greenbrier Sporting Club do). Another Nicklaus course I have played without homesite is Rocky Gap in Maryland (although I think it is an average course at best and does have Interstate 68 beside it which is just as bad as homesites....)
All the other Nicklaus courses I have played have homes/residential property on them. But I would also say there are varying degrees of this. I would put it in two categories. One where the homes are set off from the course or the homes are nice enogh that it does not distract from the round and then ones where the homes dominate the surrounding and seem intrusive....
Just like l would say that courses without homesites, etc. can fall into ranges anywhere from extraordinary (Bandon) to just trees/forest without much appeal (although still better than homesites)
There are homes along holes 2, 3, 10, and 13 at the Greenbrier now.
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With all this said about houses, and with mention that I generally hate houses on golf courses although it can be argued they are often a necessary evil, Nicklaus does a pretty darn good job of hiding them or making sure they are out of play on most of his designs.
Even the one I hit wasn't THAT close to play. It was an awful swing on my part.
Castle Pines they tend to be hidden in the forest when they are there, and most holes especially on the back nine I don't recall even seeing houses. Desert Highlands and Sycamore Hills definitely have more homes, but they are pushed back pretty well and often blocked by trees or desert brush. They are more noticable I think at Sycamore Hills than the other two.
I do think the Bear Trace at Cumberland Mountain is a very fine golf course; its in a state park with no homesites. Its a shame that those courses have not fared better financially as that one at least is very much worth playing.
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Do the Bear's Best courses in Atlanta and Las Vegas have housing?
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Concession is pretty amazing. They have one tee where Jack and Tonys lots are about 250 yds away. Thats the closest lots to be on the course.
I have heard really good things about Dismal, but havent played it.
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Not sure it would rank as the best but Richland Country Club in Nashville is a private Nicklaus course with basically no homes on it. There are a few that sit on top of a hill at the very end of the driving range, but I believe that's it. Very hilly course that is difficult to walk. If I'm not mistaken the course was built in the '80's after the club sold its Ross course to a housing developer for a pretty good amount and moved the club to the edge of Nashville with a new Nicklaus course, essentially built on the side of a mountain. So in a way I guess you could say that home sales did drive the construction of this course even though there are no houses on it ;D
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May River is of course entirely and elaborately planned; yet there are almost no homes "on" the golf course that I can recall. In comparison to the rest of the development (which is truly beautiful in my opinion), the feeling is quite isolated.
We all know of developments where the home-siting dominated the golf course routing and ruined it. There's no better example in the world that I can think of than Wabeek Country Club, a very early Pete Dye & Jack Nicklaus design from the early 1970's, built on a magnificent bit of hilly old farmstead once owned by the James Couzens family north of Detroit in Bloomfield Hills. The developer was Chrysler Realty which fell on hard times with the first oil shock of that era, and real estate sales took over the project. The land is very nice, and the resulting course is quite awful. I'm quite sure that Nicklaus and Dye would both like to disown it now, 30+ years later.
But home sites do not automatically make for a bad course. The two Donald Ross courses of the Detroit Golf Club contained home sites, surrounding the courses on three sides. Indeed, ANGC was originally laid out with home sites, right? It would be hard to say that Muirfield Village is compromised by its home sites, right? St. George's Hill in Surrey?
I have not seen the Bear's Club north of West Palm Beach; is there an integral real estate development? Are there any Mexican Nicklaus entries in this sweepstakes? I have also never had the pleasure of playing Colleton River, where I know there are some homesites, but not too may, right?
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Nothing to do with US Mainland, but the three Nicklaus courses I know in England are exceedingly rural: Carden Park has no housing at all, although the sprawl of the hotel feels like a city in itself, but the course is right away from it all; The London Club has one Nicklaus signature course and a Nicklaus company course with not a single house anywhere; there are a few houses lining the early holes at St Mellion, but they are high up above the fairways and, therefore, largely out of sight. The rest of the course is way out in the country. The only trouble is that I don't think they are great courses, St Mellion getting my vote if I had to on account of its topographical advantages.
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The Concession Club is my pick. It is a collaboration with Tony Jacklin but the course is mostly Nicklaus Design. It is the best set of greens I have seen by the Nicklaus Company and the bunkering is really quite clever. I believe the long-term plan is to have no homesites on the course.
There are damn few old golf courses that have no abutting housing. Most are in residential neighborhoods of one sort or another. There are a few like NGLA and Shinnecock that have no housing at all. Fishers Island has a few close residences, there is a whole newer development that front numerous holes on the #2 course, even vaunted Maidstone has a few homesites abutting (although in the eight figure price range).
Palma Ceia in Tampa is literally encased by the homes that surround it and to my knowledge the only part of the club that can be seen from the road is the Clubhouse.
The only near housing at Newport CC are the nuisance houses off to the left of number four green. Unfortunately a couple of the homes there are among the worst architecturally in Newport.
The Honors Course is another that has avoided housing mainly due to Jack Lupton buying all the adjoining land.
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Collectively, we as a group seem to be struggling in coming up with five courses out of two hundred plus that fit the parameter.
So let’s change the question: why isn’t Nicklaus Design hired for more golf only projects??
There have to be reasons. For instance, the design careers of Nicklaus and Pete Dye largely overlap and Dye has the four at Kohler, The Golf Club, The Honors Course as Mike Fay points out, etc. – where are the Nicklaus equivalent?
Cheers,
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Michael Fay,
Shinnecock has some houses around it. There's a house overlooking the driving range as well as a fairly modern development near the 12th tee and down the hill along the right side of the 15th fairway.
Having two golf courses on either side (NGLA to the west and Southampton to the east) helps isolate the course from housing.
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Collectively, we as a group seem to be struggling in coming up with five courses out of two hundred plus that fit the parameter.
So let’s change the question: why isn’t Nicklaus Design hired for more golf only projects??
There have to be reasons. For instance, the design careers of Nicklaus and Pete Dye largely overlap and Dye has the four at Kohler, The Golf Club, The Honors Course as Mike Fay points out, etc. – where are the Nicklaus equivalent?
Cheers,
Ran,
Since you are inviting rank speculation, I will take the bait.
Among the architects Jack (and I suppose Arnold) are easily the most recognizable names to the second-home buying public. If you are a real estate developer who wants to sell houses, Jack's name attached to the golf course is probably a stronger hook for a wide audience of potential home-buyers than Tom Doak or Bill Coore, to name 2.
Another factor to consider is that a golf course that is part of a real estate development may be able to afford a bigger architect fee than a golf-only situation. Jack may be pick his projects where the fee is highest.
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Is it Mayacama (I haven’t seen it so I don’t know)?
Ran,
I don't know the number of homes on Mayacama. There are not very many; but they are there. And that number will rise as time goes by. The latest is just off the 10th fairway. Most of them are quite a way from the course; but the more recent construction is closer by. Cottages were built, I believe, in year 2. But they are not obtrusive, mainly concentrated near the clubhouse and the practice area.
The new one on 10 is really obtrusive, not to mention hittable. It's weird. But for now, that's the only home on the course that's really noticeable at all.
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Collectively, we as a group seem to be struggling in coming up with five courses out of two hundred plus that fit the parameter.
So let’s change the question: why isn’t Nicklaus Design hired for more golf only projects??
There have to be reasons. For instance, the design careers of Nicklaus and Pete Dye largely overlap and Dye has the four at Kohler, The Golf Club, The Honors Course as Mike Fay points out, etc. – where are the Nicklaus equivalent?
Cheers,
Ran,
You are making the very big assumption that Nicklaus Design wants golf only projects when the numbers you show (ND is over 300 courses BTW) indicate otherwise. Try this little experiment and I think you'll see why I think this way:
Assume you are a very wealthy real estate developer and you are about to develop 2000 acres of raw land into a golf centered neighborhood. Your goal is to maximize the use of the land so that you can make even more money because you aren't satisfied with being 'very wealthy' and you want to be insanely wealthy.
So you just want to build tons of expensive house and you know that if you stick a golf course in the middle somewhere that you can command 25% more per lot. Ran, you're an upscale guy and you like to build upscale communities, so who are you going to pick to build this course in the middle of your project? Before you answer please remember that national averages show that 65% of your future homeowners will NOT be members at your golf club. They will live on the course but not be members as they don't even care about golf but they like the home value appreciation that golf courses bring.
Let's see... you could pick Jack Nicklaus. Hmmm, the design fee is kind of steep but you get name recognition for the future members AND non-member home buyers. (A huge point!) Additionally, you would be getting a design firm that has done 300+ designs for similar neighborhoods. Some better than others but that's a lot of experience. Some of that experience has to do with 'neighborhood routing' of the course. I just made up that term. Does the course routing interfere with your goal of maximizing profit or does it help?
So Ran, being the greedy bastard that you are, you pick ND as your partner and poof, 2 years later you are in business selling houses mostly to people who won't play your course. (Weird huh?)
IMO, Nicklaus Design has learned they have a distinct advantage in residential course design. Who's better? Why not use this advantage to the fullest?
Lastly, ND gets a lot of repeat business by developers and this would indicate that these customers are mostly pleased by the design's impact on the neighborhood and the profits generated.
Best,
Peter
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Peter W - thanks for that; you paint a very clear picture.
But a sidebar question - If said greedy bastard wants not only to become insanely wealthy but obscenely wealthy, is ANY golf course development the best way to reach his cherished goal? With 2000 acres of raw land available to him, is it a GIVEN that putting a golf course there will draw more potential high-end homeowners than, say, a 200 acre lake and "family-centred recreational facilities" along with an "holistic health and spiritual well-being life-style centre and spa" would draw?
In other words, do you have any sense of whether the golf-course development model is as strong as ever, or if its appeal is waning?
Thanks
Peter
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Ran - I think there may be 5 in my home state. I haven't played all 5 Bear Trace courses, but I've played 3 and seen comments on a 4th and I don't recall houses. They are all in State parks. Not all of his best work but they aren't bad. A couple of them are enjoyable rounds though logistically they are a nightmare and don' get any play.
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Once again.... does anyone know the percentage of golf courses that have NO residential developement. I'd still like to think that the national average isn't that far off from the Nickalus Design numbers.
Also good points Phil and Peter... points I elaborated to about 10 posts earlier. But I'm a newbie what do I know... right?
Nicklaus does a pretty darn good job of hiding them or making sure they are out of play on most of his designs.
Perhaps Jack has more of an influence on developers and is able to persuade them or is more freely able to place the golf where he and his design staff chooses because of his name... just a thought.
It seems on the projects I've seen develop here in Asia that we have a lot of influence on where residential development will be placed and that mostly the developers go with what we say. I'm not sure if other designers have such freedom; or perhaps this is simply because of Asia's lack of experience in such projects.
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Ran,
Why isn’t Nicklaus Design hired for more golf only projects??
One reason might be cost. Why spend a large amount for a name architect when all you're selling is memberships? Even wealthy individual developers might have a limit if they want to develop their own private club. It didn't stop Michael Pascucci at Sebonack or even Warren Stephens from hiring Fazio for Alotian.
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Peter W - thanks for that; you paint a very clear picture.
But a sidebar question - If said greedy bastard wants not only to become insanely wealthy but obscenely wealthy, is ANY golf course development the best way to reach his cherished goal? With 2000 acres of raw land available to him, is it a GIVEN that putting a golf course there will draw more potential high-end homeowners than, say, a 200 acre lake and "family-centred recreational facilities" along with an "holistic health and spiritual well-being life-style centre and spa" would draw?
In other words, do you have any sense of whether the golf-course development model is as strong as ever, or if its appeal is waning?
Thanks
Peter
Peter P,
Sure, any developer would do well to step back and assess his or her options as what the center feature of the neighborhood should be. I have seen some of what you mentioned above first hand and I can say that the holistic health wellness thing is not competitive to golf from a developer standpoint. Tough to say what the future will bring but a 'wellness neighborhood' is not bringing a premium today.
A small man-made lake is a good call. I would say if you include an interesting lake design, a couple of restaurants, and a small 'yacht club' then you could have a winner. An important element of this is to limit boats to 10 hps. or less because your lake will be small and it turns out to be more fun forcing your customers to explore the lake slowly. I have seen lake communities that command roughly the same premium as golf communities.
Answering your last question is tough. On the one hand I'm very confident that the demand for golf communities will remain high. I base this on age demographics mostly which would say we will see continued demand for the next 20-ish years. On the other hand, we have built a very large number of golf neighborhoods in the last 25 years (1/3 of the total supply). Will the continued demand be greater than the current supply of golf communities? I don't know but I would guess yes, but just by a little.
Think about your own community. If you were a developer are there areas left untapped that would yield cool golf neighborhoods? Do you think there are customers to buy these new houses? Is there a pent up demand for more golf holes?
If your answers are sort of marginal yes's then I would suggest building a golf community but with something added to make the new neighborhood stand out. Maybe you buy more raw land and have both a lake and golf community combined. Maybe it's a golf & gun club based community. Golf and something (except tennis which appears to be dead).
Best,
Peter
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Nicklaus does a pretty darn good job of hiding them or making sure they are out of play on most of his designs.
I mostly agree.
Perhaps Jack has more of an influence on developers and is able to persuade them or is more freely able to place the golf where he and his design staff chooses because of his name... just a thought.
It seems on the projects I've seen develop here in Asia that we have a lot of influence on where residential development will be placed and that mostly the developers go with what we say. I'm not sure if other designers have such freedom; or perhaps this is simply because of Asia's lack of experience in such projects.
I think Jack does have considerable influence in working with developers. ND can, and should, point to their success rate for developers and of course Jack has that little 'best golfer ever' card to play. Persuasive stuff for a developer on any continent. I would think Dye and Fazio also have at least the first half of that as well.
- Peter
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Do the Bear's Best courses in Atlanta and Las Vegas have housing?
i dont remember the bear's best in vegas having any homes, but apparently i was wrong about the other 3 i had mentioned in this thread...
if they did have homes, i suppose they would have had to have been based on other homes around his courses. ;)
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Peter P & Peter W-
A friend of mine is a residential developer in the SW Denver area. After some research he determined that the two best alternative for selling houses in the area and making profit were:
1) to use 150 or so acres and get Nicklaus (who doesnt have a public design in the area) to build a "brand name" course
or
2) Use about 2/3 of the land that would have been a golf course for open space and trails
He went with option 2 and the community has sold tremendously. His rationale was that even if it was a Nicklaus signature course, the last thing that area needed was another golf course community. Demand for a outdoor/recreation based community was higher.
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Astavrides,
Yep, Bear's Best Las Vegas has homes on pretty much every hole. I played it once a few years ago and I don't remember being bothered by the homes.
Peter Z,
Is your friend's project in the Ken Caryl area? Sounds like he made the right choice from a developer standpoint.
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I concur with what's been said already for the likes of Dismal River and Outlaw at Desert Mountain. Both are rather unique and the experience in playing there is enhanced greatly through the absence of housing.
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This thread is 7 years old but I'll be interested to see if anything has changed?
With what I have played it would be Dismal River.
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Dismal River must be the hands down winner. There are no homes in sight, anywhere.
Mayacama, although not as good as DR, would have a lot more homes on those $2M+ lots if the bubble hadn't burst.
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This thread is 7 years old but I'll be interested to see if anything has changed?
It shouldn't have changed too much, since there have been so few courses opened in the U.S.A. over the past seven years. I'm working on only my third, right now. I'm not really sure if Nicklaus Design has opened any new courses here in that time frame.
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To me, by far of those I've played would be Sebonack. Of course, he had some help there. ;)
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I'm interested in seeing how Ferry Point will stack up in this discussion.
Mike, considering that Tom Doak was the equal co-designer with Jack on Sebonack, why should it be considered in this discussion?
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Let’s leave collaborative efforts out.
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Phil/Mark,
Sorry, I missed that little collaborative edit from Ran. Carry on.
Re: Trump Ferry Point, my understanding is that most of that golf course is now John Sanford, so that would have to be omitted as well. Even the original Nicklaus routing changed quite a bit.
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I'm interested in seeing how Ferry Point will stack up in this discussion.
I forgot about Ferry Point. They had actually started construction on it already before we started working on Sebonack!
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Mike,
Interesting that the Nicklaus golf website refers to it as a Jack Nicklaus signature design done in collaboration with Sanford while the Trump Golf Links Ferry Point website states that "it has been designed to the absolute highest level standard and quality by the famed Jack Nicklaus."
If I have to choose between you & the Donald I'd also recommend that you consider running for the big office!
I didn't know of Sanford's beyond his being brought in to finish the Nicklaus work or what he actually did.
Good catch!
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I saw Old Corkscrew mentioned in the original thread. I believe that there was a development planned around it that never materialized. Can anyone confirm?
That being said/asked, OC is one of the more remote feeling courses I have played, given it's proximity to a number of housing developments.
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Peter W - thanks for that; you paint a very clear picture.
But a sidebar question - If said greedy bastard wants not only to become insanely wealthy but obscenely wealthy, is ANY golf course development the best way to reach his cherished goal? With 2000 acres of raw land available to him, is it a GIVEN that putting a golf course there will draw more potential high-end homeowners than, say, a 200 acre lake and "family-centred recreational facilities" along with an "holistic health and spiritual well-being life-style centre and spa" would draw?
In other words, do you have any sense of whether the golf-course development model is as strong as ever, or if its appeal is waning?
Thanks
Peter
Peter P,
Sure, any developer would do well to step back and assess his or her options as what the center feature of the neighborhood should be. I have seen some of what you mentioned above first hand and I can say that the holistic health wellness thing is not competitive to golf from a developer standpoint. Tough to say what the future will bring but a 'wellness neighborhood' is not bringing a premium today.
A small man-made lake is a good call. I would say if you include an interesting lake design, a couple of restaurants, and a small 'yacht club' then you could have a winner. An important element of this is to limit boats to 10 hps. or less because your lake will be small and it turns out to be more fun forcing your customers to explore the lake slowly. I have seen lake communities that command roughly the same premium as golf communities.
Answering your last question is tough. On the one hand I'm very confident that the demand for golf communities will remain high. I base this on age demographics mostly which would say we will see continued demand for the next 20-ish years. On the other hand, we have built a very large number of golf neighborhoods in the last 25 years (1/3 of the total supply). Will the continued demand be greater than the current supply of golf communities? I don't know but I would guess yes, but just by a little.
Think about your own community. If you were a developer are there areas left untapped that would yield cool golf neighborhoods? Do you think there are customers to buy these new houses? Is there a pent up demand for more golf holes?
If your answers are sort of marginal yes's then I would suggest building a golf community but with something added to make the new neighborhood stand out. Maybe you buy more raw land and have both a lake and golf community combined. Maybe it's a golf & gun club based community. Golf and something (except tennis which appears to be dead).
Best,
Peter
1. As soon as you contact Nicklaus Design, you are sent out an paper by an economist showing developments with a Nicklaus course have, on average, homes that are more expensive than in developments with other architects. I believe the document also showed how Nicklaus design translates to more success for a developer.
2. My home course was designed by Nicklaus in a development planned for 36 holes. The first phase was 18 holes, the club house sized for the 2 courses, and 2 types of home sites: a. On the golf course and, b. On a huge man made lake. Guess what sold faster and at higher prices? The lake views. The developer changed first to 27 holes and then abandoned entirley the second course even though he had paid part of Nicklaus´ fees for the 2nd course. I heard from the developer: "I can build a hole and fill it with water at a fraction of the price of a golf courase and sell the lots for a lote more".
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Spring Creek Ranch
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Thoes which I have played:
Dismal River
Bayside on the Delaware/Maryland Border. There are homes in a development, but nowhere near the course, as it weaves through marshland.
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Valhalla
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Old Works in Montana was a fun course without homes. It could also serve as a template for how a golf course can provide a positive environmental impact as it was constructed on a Superfund site.
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Old Works in Montana was a fun course without homes. It could also serve as a template for how a golf course can provide a positive environmental impact as it was constructed on a Superfund site.
I really liked the golf course at Old Works ... especially the front nine.
However, templates for environmental impact that require tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer money, probably don't have much future. Last I heard, even with the subsidy provided, the course was in danger of closing as its operation exceeds revenues.
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Given the citeria of mainland, no homes, and no collaboration.
The Nicklaus course up in Park City, Painted Valley at Promontory, is a pretty decent track, although its long as hell. 7000 from the white tees. A few of the holes are outstanding as the terrain has quite a bit of elevation differential.
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Kalen.
You haven't been to Promontory lately as housing has started on the Nicklaus course:
http://promontoryclub.com/nicklaus-hillside/
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Kalen.
You haven't been to Promontory lately as housing has started on the Nicklaus course:
http://promontoryclub.com/nicklaus-hillside/ (http://promontoryclub.com/nicklaus-hillside/)
You're right, its been a few years. Is the housing set pretty far back or right on the course? The housing on the Pete Dye course had some fairly nice setback distances as I remember it.
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Kalen,
According to the plan in the link, it looks like the housing is on the right side of the first hole. I think it's on a hillside.
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I don't believe Old Works has any housing on it. I'm not sure it would even be legal on a Superfund site. It does look like there's a new subdivision somewhere near the second green/third tee, but it's not really on the golf course.
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The only one that fits the bill is Valhalla and it also happens to be my favourite Nicklaus course I've played.
I got a similar feeling to playing Dornoch where there is just a feeling that makes you feel calm and in a good mood.
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I liked the Outlaw course at Desert Mountain.
However, in the past it was not overseeded, and it was brownish/yellowish/greenish and played F & F, and didn't get much play.
Now, it's overseeded, is green and gets far more play.
What does that tell you about golfer's preferences when it comes to conditions and the quality of playing surfaces ?
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Am not nominating it as 'best', but Coyote Chase is 'homeless in (North) Las Vegas....
Of course, the original plans, with PGA participation of some sort, were for approx 30,000 homes ( and 10+) more courses...
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The Dallas Athletic Club blue course is a good no homes course. I think Nicklaus had free reign on both courses so they seem to be treated as Nicklaus course as opposed to renovations.
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Am not nominating it as 'best', but Coyote Chase is 'homeless in (North) Las Vegas....
Of course, the original plans, with PGA participation of some sort, were for approx 30,000 homes ( and 10+) more courses...
Coyote Springs is good, but who would even consider building a house all the way out there? Cousin Eddie?
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Does Breckenridge have houses on it these days? I recall that one with fondness but it's been 20 years.
Bayside in DE is pretty darn good but can kill you if your approach shots are wayward.
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Old Works in Montana was a fun course without homes. It could also serve as a template for how a golf course can provide a positive environmental impact as it was constructed on a Superfund site.
I really liked the golf course at Old Works ... especially the front nine.
However, templates for environmental impact that require tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer money, probably don't have much future. Last I heard, even with the subsidy provided, the course was in danger of closing as its operation exceeds revenues.
Sir,
I would argue that tens of millions to cover, conceal, and suppress an ecological disaster zone which can provide public use of the land is a far better alternative than the hundreds of millions to remove/clean the waste of a past generation. However, I am not an expert in reclamation projects or Superfund clean-ups.
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The Nicklaus Course at Bay Creek GC,
http://www.baycreekresort.com/resort/golf/jack-nicklaus-course/
It has no homes on the course but there is the strange 5th hole with a green between two sand dunes. The 6th hole is a blind par 3.
It is one of the best Nicklaus courses I played but it is hard because the wind blows and the course was not designed for high winds, especially the 7th and 8th holes.
I am not sure if there will be homes on the course as there are homes around the Palmer Course.
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Coyote Springs doesn't have houses. However, the master plan by the tribe at one point called for multiple courses and housing for something like 125,000 people. It may be desolate on the surface, but the tribe owns the subsurface water rights. Such a grandiose development plan may be nothing but a bluff to increase the value of the water. Whatever, there must be a lot there to even come up with such numbers.
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Just a couple of points of clarification on Ferry Point. John Sanford was the Construction Manager of the project. Jack Nicklaus was the solo designer. The collaboration comes in because Sanford was chosen in an RFP to bring all the needed disciplines to complete the project and his company oversaw the construction of the project. The golf course contractor was selected in a separate bid by NYPR. Trump also won an RFP to maintain and operate the golf course for the NYCPR. Trump's deal was he would construct the maintenance facility and the clubhouse as part of his contract. The golf course was going to be completed, as Trump came in at the very end when the grow in was beginning. His superintendent and management team in doing a terrific job at Ferry Point.
In regards to the golf course construction starting before Sebonack, is just not factual. There was an original routing done by Nicklaus Design, but it was for a completely different style golf course than what is out there today. I know that because I went through the routing changes as the project evolved from the original private developer to NYCPR taking over the project and moving it forward with the RFP that Sanford was awarded. Part of Sanford's team was a golf course designer, and Jack Nicklaus was asked by Sanford to participate under the Sanford RFP team. Jack had considerable time and effort already in the project for several years, and he was happy to change the course style when it was determined that the necessary fill dirt for the present concept could be delivered to the site, and he saw great potential in what could be created. Hope this adds some clarity to what transpired over several years.
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Dismal in a landslide.