Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: mike_beene on May 15, 2008, 06:27:02 PM
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Had the joy of two perfect weather rounds last week, my first time to play Pasa(with my boss whose first job was picking the range there 45 years ago). I know above the hole is dead,but both days the hole on 16 was on the middle tier.The ball would barely stay.My perception was that the greens were not at their fastest.Is this tier usable during the college tournament?Also,the false front on 5 ,on the right,is the whole front half of the green.Are there any usable positions front right?Enjoyed the prior thread,and loved the course(in my top 10),but wondered how close to the edge the set up will get for a tournament.
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This is a question for Rob Chestnut! Paging Rob!
But until he gets here to answer, I shall comment thusly: it's very cool that you got a middle pin on 16, but it warms my heart even more to hear the greens were not at their fastest. I've also heard they were not such for the recent US Open qualifier there. It seems as though the club is starting to play those greens as they work best - not so fast, allowing for so many more useable pins - and that brings out the Mackenzie genius, instead of stifling it as it is when they get really quick. Man this is something I've been harping on for YEARS in here and it's really cool it seems to be coming true.
TH
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Unpinnable areas of some greens? See if you agree, Dr. Huckaby:
front right of #5
front of #8 (measured at 6% slope by Neal Meagher at KP II)
front of #11
most of #16
Hmmm? :o
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Somebody call me?
I can confirm that Pasa is "getting it" when it comes to the speed of its greens. For a long time, the target speed was 10.5, but in practice that was a minimum...tournaments there often saw greens of 11+, which severely reduced pin placements and made several of holes extremely challenging, if not unfair. The restoration of the course brought back an appreciation for the genius of MacKenzie's design, and a recognition that slower greens are better for the grass, and more enjoyable to play. Tom and Jim had a strong influence here. It's just a better course with greens at 9 or 9.5...the emphasis is on smooth, healthy greens now, even for events like the recent US Open qualifying. Things can still get away out there a bit, at the recent Western Intercollegiate the greens got too fast on the last day, a combination of grass not growing and a little wind. It was pretty tough...and not what we were shooting for.
On 16, there are 2 distinct middle pin locations. Middle left, which is just nasty...very tough to get a shot to hold there even with slower greens. You have to come with with a wedge and some spin to get it close, or (as many members to) aim for middle right or back center, and take your chances with a tough two put. The other middle pin location is middle center/right, which is the easier pin...you've got a backboard, and can get it close here. If you go long, it's rough, but you have several creative options.
Unpinnable areas? With 9.5 greens, I'd say:
Middle 3
Front right 5 (but middle/back right on 5 is doable)
Front 8
Front 11
Actually, I think a lot more of 16 is pinnable than people realize...middle left, middle center/right, the entire back ( a huge area), and (while it hasn't been done yet) front right would be technically possible.
Front right 18
Not bad, really...I'd bet that many of the above spots were intended to be false fronts, unpinnable even at speeds of 7 or so. What's particularly exciting is the fact that the restoration, combined with the slower speeds, has brought back a number of original pin positions.
Glad you enjoyed the course, Mike.
Rob
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Mike,
one of the problems that many GCA's face is what your thread is about.
1. There are many golf courses that are and should be designed for members play and never for tournament play. The course should be set up for how it is and not for an imposed universal formular. If a green becomes unplayable because of 'tournament conditions' then it is the tournament conditions that are unplayable not the course. Looking at it logically, if a green becomes unplayable stimping at 9 ft then it is likely to be very difficult stimping at 8 ft.
2. Many GCA's shy away from false fronts to their greens because many golfers don't understand them. I have heard many golfers complain that certain parts of a green are unpinnable. What would you rather have, more putting green but unpinnable or Fairway/semi rough?
The spirit of the game according to the R&A is 'Play the ball as you find it and play the course as it is'. Tournament conditioning has led to some super courses but lots more boring ones.
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Listen to Rob - he be the expert here. Jon gives some great thoughts also.
At these wildly contoured Pasatiempo greens, it's all about speed. At 9.5, it's right on the edge, and it goes just like Rob says. Some areas are unpinnable, but most great areas are doable - and that's what it's all about. Seems to me that 9.5 ought to be the MAXIMUM speed those greens ever get... it still allows for a lot of great, very difficult pins (like most of 16, as Rob says). The problem is that once you get ABOVE that speed, the list of unpinnable areas grows exponentially - and that is not good. So my belief is it's pretty perfect at 9.5, and the goal should be to keep them at or below that speed year round. Say 8 for normal play (allowing a LOT of very fun pins), raise to 9.5 for tournaments.
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Was the front of 16 pinable at any time?
I recall thinking that would be a very neat pin, but near impossible.
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Was the front of 16 pinable at any time?
I recall thinking that would be a very neat pin, but near impossible.
I have to believe that it was at the speeds during Mackenzie's day. And as it's been restored today, it's larger and flatter than it was in recent years and could easily hold a pin (assuming speeds under 9.5).
But beyond that, likely out of cruelty and to show a certain Stanford sophomore what's what, I saw the collegians play it that way... in 1995 or 96... it was pretty silly. Said sophmore had 70 or so yards to that pin for his 2nd, and exited the green slamming his putter into the bank after taking 6.
TH
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Was the front of 16 pinable at any time?
I recall thinking that would be a very neat pin, but near impossible.
I have to believe that it was at the speeds during Mackenzie's day. And as it's been restored today, it's larger and flatter than it was in recent years and could easily hold a pin (assuming speeds under 9.5).
But beyond that, likely out of cruelty and to show a certain Stanford sophomore what's what, I saw the collegians play it that way... in 1995 or 96... it was pretty silly. Said sophmore had 70 or so yards to that pin for his 2nd, and exited the green slamming his putter into the bank after taking 6.
TH
Tom,
Too funny. That guy must really suck and be out of the game today!! ;D ;D ;D
From looking at the 16th, and while I know I only played it once, but that front tier didn't look to crazy. Challenging yes, but why not just miss short and left on the approach and leave a simple chip in to save 4? As has been said here before, who says a player has the right to be on the green in regulation? ;)
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Kalen:
Remember you've only seen it as it is NOW - that front part is very doable these days (at proper speed, anyway). Back when said sophomore had his misfortune, it was about 2/3 the size at most, and more sloped toward the creek. It was pretty silly to put a pin there, I thought... but if the intent was to piss off that famous then, mega-famous now sophomore, well, it worked.
TH
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Kalen:
Remember you've only seen it as it is NOW - that front part is very doable these days (at proper speed, anyway). Back when said sophomore had his misfortune, it was about 2/3 the size at most, and more sloped toward the creek. It was pretty silly to put a pin there, I thought... but if the intent was to piss off that famous then, mega-famous now sophomore, well, it worked.
TH
True,
I never saw it in its bastardized state, but am more than happy to have seen it, in what appears to be a pretty darn faithful restoration.
If MacK was watching from upstairs, I'm sure he would have gotten a chuckle out of watching that "hack" messing up the hole. Surely the big man would have called MacK to his office to watch that as he would have known what that skinny nerdy sophmore would become.
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Said sophomore played it in a pretty bastardized state, for sure. I'm not sure the Good Doctor would have been smiling at that point, no matter what happened to said sophomore. I have to believe he is very much smiling NOW, regardless of whether said former sophomore ever plays there again.
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I was the official in charge of the US Open qualifier there this week. I asked them to get the greens to 10.5 and they did.
Paul Chojnacky is a very good superintendent and was very responsive to our needs.
For those who are interested, the hole locations I used were:
1 - Back Right
2 - Front Right (probably the hardest one of the day)
3 - Front left
4 - back right
5 - center (behind bunker)
6 - mid - left (in the cutout behind the left front bunker)
7 - back center
8 - mid-left in the slot (the first group had 3 birdies)
9 - front right (I'm tired of everyone going back on that hole)
10 - back right
11 - back right
12 - front right
13 - back left
14 - mid-back left
15 - front left
16 - back right
17 - mid left (just on the new part of the green)
18 - mid right
Medalists (2) shot 67. 70 got the 6th spot in a qualifier. High score was 90.
The hole I used on #2 would probably be unusable at much higher speeds. You certainly didn't want to miss it short and right.
Saddest story of the day was the player who was even par through 15 holes and went 7-9 on 16 and 17 before parring 18.
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TH - If I remember correct, this was 1996, and said sophomore was beaten by a decent player who holed out his 2nd shot on 11.....shooting 30 on the back nine to win the tournament. Of course none of this matters as the victor attended a far inferior university in the south bay.
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TH - If I remember correct, this was 1996, and said sophomore was beaten by a decent player who holed out his 2nd shot on 11.....shooting 30 on the back nine to win the tournament. Of course none of this matters as the victor attended a far inferior university in the south bay.
CORRECT!
Although I make no judgment about the respective universities. The best one is in between these two anyway.
GO BRONCOS!
;D
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This was with respect to our alma mater of course. Talk about a collegiate inferiority complex....
AO was a nice guy and I was glad he won. Hands down some of the best golf I have ever seen played that day. I believe he originates from the "octogenarial area" of the peninsula, but went to the public high school up there instead of hoity-toity Serra..... ;). He also served as assistant coach @ SCU for a few years while getting his game back in shape. One might make the case that an exposure to jesuit excellence allowed for him to do as well as he has on the tour.
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x
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... I believe he originates from the "octogenarial area" of the peninsula...
You guys are going to need to use bigger fonts if you expect me to read these posts ...
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John,do you know what the greens were running prior to the qualifier.I was there just over a week ago.Did you use the tee back across the road on #2? I don't know how you keep a ball on front right of 2.A dead hands shot runs left,and a cut short iron spins down.After that I am about out of shots.Any OBs on 6?
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16 pre Doak restoration.
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/DSCN1318.jpg)
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DS; here's a slightly different angle of "Pre-D"....
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o65/soylent10/pasatiempo/P1200014.jpg)
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John,do you know what the greens were running prior to the qualifier.I was there just over a week ago.Did you use the tee back across the road on #2? I don't know how you keep a ball on front right of 2.A dead hands shot runs left,and a cut short iron spins down.After that I am about out of shots.Any OBs on 6?
Mike, I don't know what they were running. They had been top dressed a few days before I was there on Friday to set the holes so they weren't super quick.
We didn't use the tee across the road as that would have required stationing someone there to stop traffic and I didn't want to use my resources that way.
I don't know if there were any OBs on 6 but there probably were a few. We used new tee behind the 5th green and I think it is harder to hit it out from there. When I get my work computer hooked up I will get the average hole scores for all the holes and post them.
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Had the joy of experiencing Pasa for the first time last friday with my dad. I'll add a few stories and pictures to the other recent Pasa thread but wanted to start here. My dad hit his best drive and best approach (25 HCP) on 16 to the top left corner of the green. As you can see the pin was on the right-side of the middle tier.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/NBA_DIE-HARD/Pasatiempo/IMG_1690.jpg)
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/NBA_DIE-HARD/Pasatiempo/IMG_1689.jpg)
This is where the caddy told him to hit his putt...
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/NBA_DIE-HARD/Pasatiempo/IMG_1697.jpg)
...And he did exactly that to the point that I thought it was going to hang up top for sure and it had just enough to catch the hill and fall down to the right...
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/NBA_DIE-HARD/Pasatiempo/IMG_1699.jpg)
...on the way down it looked as if it would hit the pin but alas it rolled about a ball outside the cup and ended up here where he is putting from now...
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/NBA_DIE-HARD/Pasatiempo/IMG_1701.jpg)
... where he proceeded to hit 2 more great putts that just fell back down the hill until the third try held up...
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/NBA_DIE-HARD/Pasatiempo/IMG_1704.jpg)
from which he then two-putted. All in all his best drive of the day, his best approach, 1 putt exactly as the caddie instructed and he finished with a total of 6 putts and an 8 for the hole. He (and I) loved every minute of it to boot.
Another good look at the complexity of the tiers from the 17th tee box...
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/NBA_DIE-HARD/Pasatiempo/IMG_1708.jpg)
Easily our favorite hole at Pasa and I am somewhat convinced that although I have not seen a ton of great courses in my young life, Pasatiempo #16 will stay in my top 18 holes for life.
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Patrick -
I would be interested in hear how the other golfers in your group played to that hole location ...
Mike
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Patrick, I liked reading about your father's adventures on #16. I just can't imagine having fun if I 6-putted, though.
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Patrick -
I would be interested in hear how the other golfers in your group played to that hole location ...
Mike
It was just the two of us with our caddy which was great as we both had plenty of time to soak in the course and take the 200+ pictures.
I pulled my drive slightly and caught the trees on the left. I had 225 yards in with the ball a foot above me in the rough. (Basically right on the edge of the shadow of the over-hang in this photo.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/NBA_DIE-HARD/Pasatiempo/IMG_1680.jpg)
I hit a 3 iron just right of the front of the green and ended up right below the left of the two fingers in the bunker. As you can see from where I was raking...
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/NBA_DIE-HARD/Pasatiempo/IMG_1695.jpg)
I hit a great shot out of the bunker that ricocheted off the pin to the right (had it not the caddy told me it might have gone in coming back down the ridge) and it came back down the ridge and stopped on the right side of the middle tier which you can see here...
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/NBA_DIE-HARD/Pasatiempo/IMG_1705.jpg)
Of course I then got a bad read from the caddy (said it didn't play down hill which it did quite severely) and three putted for my 6 to beat dad by 2. :)
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Patrick, I liked reading about your father's adventures on #16. I just can't imagine having fun if I 6-putted, though.
He is still learning the game and starting to have some success. He wasn't happy with it especially after how good his first 2 shots and first putt were but he still walked off with a smile on his face. Part of it might have been that I was stinking up the back 9 and he was really playing well.
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Interesting that Pasa offers caddies. I've played there for 30 years and never seen one. Did they say if this is a new thing?
And very cool pics and stories regarding 16. Policy of the course seems to be to keep the greens at 9.5 or so, which is semi-slow the way greens go these days - and which is VERY VERY perfect for that course, allowing for pins such as you got on 16. Imagine that green running fast, say 11... it would get rather comical, no? That is, your Dad might still be there putting.
;)
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Interesting that Pasa offers caddies. I've played there for 30 years and never seen one. Did they say if this is a new thing?
And very cool pics and stories regarding 16. Policy of the course seems to be to keep the greens at 9.5 or so, which is semi-slow the way greens go these days - and which is VERY VERY perfect for that course, allowing for pins such as you got on 16. Imagine that green running fast, say 11... it would get rather comical, no? That is, your Dad might still be there putting.
;)
Yea it wasn't much of a program we came to find out. They said you can request one online, which we did, and when the pro called again to confirm out tee-time I asked again and he said they would have one. When we got there they didn't and said they wouldn't be able to get one. In the hour before we teed off they had found one. (A nice college player from the area) We were happy to have one though and he helped out a lot on most of the greens in a lot of spots where I read it on the wrong side even.
That being said I never felt comfortable or on the same page with what club to hit, partially because I had a new set and wasn't totally sure on my distances, but mostly because he gave me bad adjustments in terms of the hill and wind.
My dad agreed that he was well worth taking and helped a ton on the greens but not much in the fairway.
The other goofy part though was that because it is such a bare bones system the club had no way for us to pay by credit card or check and as a result we had to write him a check. Kind of goofy imo but he didn't seem to care.
The greens were perfect around 10. They played fast but not impossible (I can only imagine them at 11+) and we saw some great pins, none greater than 16, as a result.
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Rob Chestnut can confirm, but it would seem they are working out the kinks in a new caddie "program." Very cool he helped anyway. That is one very tricky golf course as you saw!
And 10 puts the greens right on their edge, I think. But yep, the key is what pins can be done... many of the other greens also have large unpinnable spots at higher speed. It is very very cool the course has seen the light.
TH
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Patrick, from where your father hit his first putt, is there any way to keep the ball on the middle tier? Other than holing it, I mean. From your description, sounds close to impossible.
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Patrick, from where your father hit his first putt, is there any way to keep the ball on the middle tier? Other than holing it, I mean. From your description, sounds close to impossible.
I thought long and hard about this myself. I wonder if he couldn't have played all the way to the back corner of the green and catch the ridge which my ball caught after hitting the pin and bouncing to the right (which I didnt see as I was in the bunker). This seems like the only possibility to me (other than maybe flopping a 60* and getting some spin) because he seriously could not have hit it any slower on top of the hill to catch the ridge (as I mentioned before I thought it was going to stay up.) I wish I had tried it myself but after taking so much time with my dad's 6-putt we had to keep moving.
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I am wondering whether this is a positive or a negative with respect to the good of the game. Here we have a great course which is available for public play at a substantial fee and it just kicks the butt of the average golfer. How many 16 handicaps would view a 6 putt as fun? How about how long it takes to play a hole where there is a 6 putt. Sure, most of us GCA types look at it as fun but the average golfer does not enjoy getting his butt kicked. I seriously doubt most golfers would have continued the frustration of 6 putts and would probably have given up after 3 or 4. I might have had a grin on my face if it happened to me but I doubt most others would.
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Jerry:
Understand that Patrick played this green right on the edge of doability, at 10 stimp. Most of the time - from what Rob says - it will be a bit slower. But the main thing is that with that middle pin, well... it's takes a VERY long shot to reach the top tier. That is, it's effectly 25 yards I'd say past where you want to be. That is, it's only about 10 yards in ground distance, but it's very very uphill... thus the equivalent of hitting it 25 yards long. SO... one really shouldn't get to where Patrick's dad did... and if one does, one pays a very steep price and should expect to.
TH
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Jerry:
Understand that Patrick played this green right on the edge of doability, at 10 stimp. Most of the time - from what Rob says - it will be a bit slower. But the main thing is that with that middle pin, well... it's takes a VERY long shot to reach the top tier. That is, it's effectly 25 yards I'd say past where you want to be. That is, it's only about 10 yards in ground distance, but it's very very uphill... thus the equivalent of hitting it 25 yards long. SO... one really shouldn't get to where Patrick's dad did... and if one does, one pays a very steep price and should expect to.
TH
AwsHuckster
If I am not mistaken, the green was steep and fast enough to cause two putts to coming rolling back to the player's feet. I don't know if he was way short and paid a price, but if he gets it up near the hole and it rolls back down - its bad news in terms of architecture and or maintenance.
Ciao
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Sean:
You are not mistaken.
BUT... no offense to Patrick's Dad, but the putt from the bottom is really not THAT hard, not in terms of keeping it on the middle shelf, anyway. It's fairly simple to just whack it and use the back of the last tier as a backstop of sorts.
Hey, I am not saying this is an easy green - good lord, I have railed against it's absurdity for YEARS, and hell I four-putted it myself the last time I played it. But if it is kept at a reasonable speed, it is very doable. Just understand that middle tier pin is always going to be very very tough. I just don't find it absurd, or un-fun; not at a reasonable speed anyway. Take it to 11 and it is indeed both those things.
TH
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Huck or anyone: what are putts like when the pin is on the middle tier, and your ball is on the upper tier?
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Huck or anyone: what are putts like when the pin is on the middle tier, and your ball is on the upper tier?
Jim - you saw what happened to Patrick's Dad. I do believe that at 10 or more speed, one really does have zero chance to hold the middle tier. At below that it can be done.
TH
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But Huck, what if his dad was playing with some non- GCA guys - what do you think the reaction would be, would they come back for more - I doubt it. If they are told this is great golf then maybe their reaction is the heck with it, I'm just not good enough to play the game, and they quit. So 2% of the golfers, like us, are driving 98% of the golfers away from the game. I may enjoy it, but what about the other 98%.
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But Huck, what if his dad was playing with some non- GCA guys - what do you think the reaction would be, would they come back for more - I doubt it. If they are told this is great golf then maybe their reaction is the heck with it, I'm just not good enough to play the game, and they quit. So 2% of the golfers, like us, are driving 98% of the golfers away from the game. I may enjoy it, but what about the other 98%.
Jerry: I get what you're saying. I agree with you that most would look at this as goofy-golf and be turned off rather than get any smiles out of it. Hell I myself have stated on here many times that at the faster speeds they had that green before, it was absurd and ought to have been utterly cryit downe.
But what you are missing are two factors:
a) they played it right on the edge speed-wise; perhaps even too fast. Slow it down a little - as the course intends to do and apparently does most days - and there are no issues.
b) again, it's a pretty long past the pin shot (as I explained) to get it to top tier with a middle pin. Very few will have that happen. And one way or the other, that's a very severe pin that won't be often used.
SO... if the course plays how it's intended and/or the golfer faces a less severe pin, oh it's still gonna be a crazy tough green, but it won't be seen as goofy-golf by the majority, I think.
TH
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But Huck, what if his dad was playing with some non- GCA guys - what do you think the reaction would be, would they come back for more - I doubt it. If they are told this is great golf then maybe their reaction is the heck with it, I'm just not good enough to play the game, and they quit. So 2% of the golfers, like us, are driving 98% of the golfers away from the game. I may enjoy it, but what about the other 98%.
Jerry -
You don't have to be a "non-GCA guy" to be revulsed by a green that affords six-putting.
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I don't doubt his first putt was almost impossible, and would have guessed thats where his ball would have ended up on the front tier.
But I don't see why it took 3 putts to hit it up to that middle tier, especially with the ramp up to the top tier acting as a backstop.
So even though 6 putts sounds like a travesty, it could have very easily been done in 4. I know that sounds crazy, but you just can't be above the hole on this green, simple as that. I think the green complex is fascinating and certainly the most interesting I've ever seen.
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And I too would be revulsed by such a thing also, in general. There was a thread not very long ago in which I called this very green "absurd" among other things.
But I based this on years of experience with the green at very fast speed. Some here seem to be basing their assessment on the one-time result achieved by a high handicapper who got his ball to a very unlikely and very bad place, with the green at the very edge of doable speed and using the very most difficult pin, and who also took three tries to achieve decent success on a putt that really is not that difficult. I find that to be rather unfair.
The green is a bitch, for sure. But keep the speeds moderate and it's actually pretty great. And I say that most definitely as a card-carrying NON-GCAer (in terms of beliefs, anyway).
;)
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But Huck, what if his dad was playing with some non- GCA guys - what do you think the reaction would be, would they come back for more - I doubt it. If they are told this is great golf then maybe their reaction is the heck with it, I'm just not good enough to play the game, and they quit. So 2% of the golfers, like us, are driving 98% of the golfers away from the game. I may enjoy it, but what about the other 98%.
Jerry: I get what you're saying. I agree with you that most would look at this as goofy-golf and be turned off rather than get any smiles out of it. Hell I myself have stated on here many times that at the faster speeds they had that green before, it was absurd and ought to have been utterly cryit downe.
But what you are missing are two factors:
a) they played it right on the edge speed-wise; perhaps even too fast. Slow it down a little - as the course intends to do and apparently does most days - and there are no issues.
b) again, it's a pretty long past the pin shot (as I explained) to get it to top tier with a middle pin. Very few will have that happen. And one way or the other, that's a very severe pin that won't be often used.
SO... if the course plays how it's intended and/or the golfer faces a less severe pin, oh it's still gonna be a crazy tough green, but it won't be seen as goofy-golf by the majority, I think.
TH
I thought they played it at "normal" speeds, say 9.5.
This is a great lesson in keeping the ball below the hole!
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I saw Jay Flemma do the same thing when he was above the hole on the 14th at Baltimore CC - but that is a private club and the members know that you cannot be above the hole. Here we are talking about a public course and not everyone is going to be a 5 handicap and understand the absolutes with respect to how the play a particular hole. It is those absolutes that scare me in the sense that it could turn people off to the game.
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Bill: Patrick later reported he thought the green was 10. That's pretty fast, as I say, right on the edge of doability for Pasatiempo.
Jerry: I understand what you are getting at, believe me. But note this is a semiprivate course. But more importantly, the green is likely more steeply contoured than 99.9% of greens any golfer willl ever see. It does not take any particular golf skill, nor the brains or profession of Steve Pieracci*, to see that one simply should not get above the hole... and that one ought not to expect much success putting downhill on this green.
TH
* rocket scientist by trade, great golfer by passion.
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Glad to see this is generating some interest. :)
The second putt from the bottom of the hill indeed wasn't that hard. For whatever reason the caddy waited until he hit the first two just short to let him know he could play it off the backstop which he did with the third. (Although that one almost rolled all the way back down.) That being said I agree it should have been a 4-putt had the caddy spoken up a little before or if had we been playing it a second time.
I am not sure whether I think that the greens at this speed are absurd. I could argue it both ways. The greens were great to play on all the rest of the holes at this speed (around 10) and this is probably the one and only place where a putt was impossible to make. However it is a little ridiculous for a 25 HCP to hit a putt as perfectly as he could and get that result.
If there is indeed a way to keep that putt on the green, like perhaps hitting it to the far right corner and letting it come down at a more diagonal line to the pin, then I don't think it is unfair, just ridiculously tough.
When we play it again I am sure both of us would keep it well below the hole. ;)
I thought it was a ton of fun to have the middle-tier pin, as tough as it was, after hearing here how rare it was here before we played. We had great pin positions all day, but then again are there any bad ones on these greens?
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Patrick:
Get the speeds to 11 or faster and there are a TON of bad positions. Make them 9-5 or less and there really are none.
16 just tends to show this most clearly; although 8 holds up it's head nicely in this as well.
TH
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It sounds like the type of scenario where a 3 putt is nearly certain which is fair enough. If 4 putt comes into it, then the green (for whatever reason) is too severe. To me it doesn't matter much why its bad so long as the problem can be solved. I like adventerous golf, but there has to be a limit. I am not sure how one defines the limit, but I think we should be very careful about changing greens if they are reasonable at the 9ish range. If the greens are rolling quicker than that, perhaps its time to take stock of what is actually being done to the course and how it effects the customers. For the life of me, I don't know why places get greens rolling quicker than 9. Life would be so much easier for all involved if egos were kept in check.
Ciao
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Sean:
What you just posted there is an issue I've been ranting on / raving about / wondering about for at least a decade now.
Pasatiempo has some very wild, very heavily contoured greens; the 16th is just the wildest.
As I've said for a decade plus, keep it 9 or less and it's as fun as golf can get. Make it more than that and it is absurd.
Thus I agree completely with that last post.
I'm just trying to convey to you in this thread that 16 Pasatiempo can work. Our friends here just saw it right at the very edge of such. Make the green 9 or less and it's not like any putt would be a certain three-putt... but none are a certain two putt either. Hell 4 putts could still happen if one is not careful... but it won't be due to GRAVITY, but rather failure in skill.
It's a brilliant green when played at the speed it's brilliant creator intended. Faster that that and it is as stupid as golf can get.
The good news is this: rather than change/soften the green to allow for speed, Pasatiempo took the BRILLIANT step of restoring the green to how Mackenzie intended it, including slowing down the speed so as to avoid absurdity.
And if this is not a breath of fresh air in a golf world filled with otherwise bad news, than I don't know what is.
Tom H.
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I had a third tier to second tier putt my second day.Hit as good a putt as I could,it barely trickled over the hill,got a tiny piece of the right edge ,trickled,then sped up and ultimately ran just off the green.If I had it to do over I might try to leave the ball in the front fringe of the middle tier.I think there was enough rough to hold it and then a reasonable chip at par.If every green was this severe it would get old.I think this one works very well.There is a penalty for hitting it up there that is more interesting than a pond.
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I had a third tier to second tier putt my second day.Hit as good a putt as I could,it barely trickled over the hill,got a tiny piece of the right edge ,trickled,then sped up and ultimately ran just off the green.If I had it to do over I might try to leave the ball in the front fringe of the middle tier.I think there was enough rough to hold it and then a reasonable chip at par.
Do you mean you would purposely putt off the green, so you could try to hole your chip shot for par?
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Yes.I would take that flat chip of 15 feet over a 40 foot putt or chip up a three foot incline.
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These stories are telling me that perhaps Pasatiempo still hasn't quite gotten there in terms of getting speeds down to where the greens would be perfect. A third tier to middle tier putt should be stoppable without intentionally hitting it into the fringe - although I agree with Mike that that is the best play as it seems to stand now.
Let's give them time - it's clear the will is there - but Rome was not built in a day.
;)
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Let me throw in some thoughts about 16 from the perspective of someone who plays it every week....and admittedly, I'm biased. I think that it's a great hole, though arguably not the best hole on the course.
First, it's a difficult and unique hole...and there's nothing wrong with having a hole that's very challenging and a little different. I like courses that have holes like this toward the end of the round, they create some anticipation (and apprehension) that builds during the round, ie, I've got a good round going, but anything can happen on 16. You wouldn't want more than one hole like this on a course, but one hole like this is pretty cool.
Second, though it's a very difficult green, remember that it's a short hole, under 385, with good drives that bounce downhill. It's not unusual for a good golfer to hit 3 wood off the tee and still have a wedge or short iron in. And unlike the "typical" short par 4, the green on 16 is huge. Given these facts, it's not unreasonable to challenge the good golfer with a tough green, and to expect the good golfer to put the ball not just on the green, but in the right place on the green. If you hit the approach to the proper tier, you're rewarded here with a relatively flat putt -- I see a number of birdies on this hole.
Putting on this hole depends a lot on where the pin is located. The easiest position is middle center/right. A putt from the lower tier to this pin is actually easy...you simply hit it hard, and you have a giant backboard to bring your putt back to the hole. True, a putt from the upper tier to the middle tier is brutal, but anyone that hits a ball that far long and above the hole deserves what they get....rather than a hazard or awful rough, they get an almost impossible putt...but just because it's a putt doesn't make the hole silly, it makes it different (and in my view brilliant)...MacKenzie has created a green that uses sections of a green as a hazard, an effective "moving" hazard depending on the pin position.
The most common pin position is the back tier. It's a very long section of green with lots of pin positions, and as a tier it's almost as large as some greens you'll find on short par 4s on other courses. It's fairly flat, and there's room to miss right and a bit long. If you miss it short, it will roll all the way down, leaving a nasty uphill putt. But if you think about it, missing the green short on a short par 4 often means death by nasty bunker or hazard, where getting up and down is nearly impossible....so here, the punishment is arguably less severe...severe punishment by difficult putt, where it's difficult to get "up and down." It's not necessarily unfair (depending on green speed).
In addition to the above two tiers, there's a middle left pin position that's nasty, really almost a fourth tier between the top and middle tiers, that adds another dimension. It's difficult to keep an approach shot on this small shelf, which forces golfers choosing to play conservative to either aim for the top shelf, or the middle center/right shelf, and trying to two putt.
Either way, it's tough. I agree, for a 25 handicapper, it could be rough...but I played the course recently with a 30 handicapper who's new to the game, he shot 124, bogeyed 16 with a back pin, and had a great time.
And Tom H. is right...green speed is a big issue, and it's a huge factor for playability on 16. It's certainly a better hole, more playable with more pin positions, and more fair, with green speeds at 9 or 9.5. I think the club is doing the right thing by slowing the greens up and focusing on smooth over fast....but remember that Pasatiempo is an unusual club that caters to both a private membership and the public, which forces interesting choices about how to set up the course.
Rob
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Pasa is a really special course in my opinion. I think that perhaps Patrick is laying too much blame at the feet of the caddy & the green, and not accepting that perhaps pilot error was the main culprit.
Pasatiempo is a "short" layout by modern standards, and a lot of its defence is based on tough green complexes & positional play off the tee. As Rob said, 16 is routinely a 3 wood - wedge hole for the "good golfer" and you much take this into account when assessing the severity of the green. TH also mentions the fact that to miss on the upper left tier is the equivalent of being 25 + yards out, on a comparable par 4 this could be a bunker / water hazard where you have <i>zero</i> chance of getting down in 2.
Its a great par 4 - really enjoyable, memorable and testing. Much like the rest of the course IMHO.
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I may be hallucinating, but I think I played PasaT with Huckaby once, and the pin was on the middle tier, and he hit it there, about 18 ft to the right. Did not make putt for birdie.
Does anyone else recall that?
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Rob, great post. Really gives me a perspective on this hole.
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Pasa is a really special course in my opinion. I think that perhaps Patrick is laying too much blame at the feet of the caddy & the green, and not accepting that perhaps pilot error was the main culprit.
Not sure this matters too much but the only thing that the caddy didn't communicate to my dad was that the putt uphill could be played off the backboard of the middle tier. Either way pilot or "co-pilot" error did not take away from the great experience of the course. As most of my posts show (at least I hope they do) I loved the challenge and at points failing some of those challenges. My dad was smiling after his 6-putt. Again not sure this matters in terms of the architecture but I guess Patrick G. brought it up for a reason.
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I may be hallucinating, but I think I played PasaT with Huckaby once, and the pin was on the middle tier, and he hit it there, about 18 ft to the right. Did not make putt for birdie.
Does anyone else recall that?
JK - I surely do remember that. I thought I made the putt though! I know I did birdie this hole ONCE, and it was middle tier.
And oh yes this was back in the less enlightened days. But in those days, they also certainly did give sadistic pins from time to time. In fact the entire clarity on the absurdity of the greens hit me one day after playing a back pin on the old #11. Putt up, miss, gravity rolls it back to your feet... lather, rinse, repeat, as many times as you can take it.
And thanks, Rob - that is indeed a great post which sums things up perfectly. 16 is a great golf hole for sure... it just works best with the green no more than 9.5.
TH
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... True, a putt from the upper tier to the middle tier is brutal, but anyone that hits a ball that far long and above the hole deserves what they get....rather than a hazard or awful rough, they get an almost impossible putt...but just because it's a putt doesn't make the hole silly, it makes it different (and in my view brilliant)...MacKenzie has created a green that uses sections of a green as a hazard, an effective "moving" hazard depending on the pin position ...
I think this is a great point ...
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Mike - I fully agree - see reply 33.
;)
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Bump
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Let me throw in some thoughts about 16 from the perspective of someone who plays it every week....and admittedly, I'm biased.
Rob, I don't think I have a bias when it comes to Pasatiempo and # 16, but, I share your sentiments on the golf course.
I think it's simply brilliant.
I think that it's a great hole, though arguably not the best hole on the course.
MacKenzie called it his best par 4.
That's a pretty strong endorsement.
First, it's a difficult and unique hole...and there's nothing wrong with having a hole that's very challenging and a little different. I like courses that have holes like this toward the end of the round, they create some anticipation (and apprehension) that builds during the round, ie, I've got a good round going, but anything can happen on 16. You wouldn't want more than one hole like this on a course, but one hole like this is pretty cool.
It's beyond cool, it's both intriquing and challenging.
From the blind tee shot to the startling view of the green from the DZ to standing on the putting surface and being in awe of what was created.
Second, though it's a very difficult green, remember that it's a short hole, under 385, with good drives that bounce downhill. It's not unusual for a good golfer to hit 3 wood off the tee and still have a wedge or short iron in. And unlike the "typical" short par 4, the green on 16 is huge. Given these facts, it's not unreasonable to challenge the good golfer with a tough green, and to expect the good golfer to put the ball not just on the green, but in the right place on the green. If you hit the approach to the proper tier, you're rewarded here with a relatively flat putt -- I see a number of birdies on this hole.
Rob, everything you say is dead on.
However, you have to understand, when golfers can't rise to meet certain architectural challenges, they complain that they're unfair.
You have to ask yourself, which is the harder hole, # 10, # 11 or # 16 ?
I think that # 16 is far, far easier than # 10 or # 11.
# 16 requires a good tee shot and a "precise" approach.
Fail with "precision" and you're penalized, as you should be, especially given the enormity of that green.
Putting on this hole depends a lot on where the pin is located. The easiest position is middle center/right. A putt from the lower tier to this pin is actually easy...you simply hit it hard, and you have a giant backboard to bring your putt back to the hole. True, a putt from the upper tier to the middle tier is brutal, but anyone that hits a ball that far long and above the hole deserves what they get....rather than a hazard or awful rough, they get an almost impossible putt...but just because it's a putt doesn't make the hole silly, it makes it different (and in my view brilliant)...MacKenzie has created a green that uses sections of a green as a hazard, an effective "moving" hazard depending on the pin position.
Agree
The most common pin position is the back tier. It's a very long section of green with lots of pin positions, and as a tier it's almost as large as some greens you'll find on short par 4s on other courses. It's fairly flat, and there's room to miss right and a bit long. If you miss it short, it will roll all the way down, leaving a nasty uphill putt. But if you think about it, missing the green short on a short par 4 often means death by nasty bunker or hazard, where getting up and down is nearly impossible....so here, the punishment is arguably less severe...severe punishment by difficult putt, where it's difficult to get "up and down." It's not necessarily unfair (depending on green speed).
Green
In addition to the above two tiers, there's a middle left pin position that's nasty, really almost a fourth tier between the top and middle tiers, that adds another dimension. It's difficult to keep an approach shot on this small shelf, which forces golfers choosing to play conservative to either aim for the top shelf, or the middle center/right shelf, and trying to two putt.
Either way, it's tough. I agree, for a 25 handicapper, it could be rough...but I played the course recently with a 30 handicapper who's new to the game, he shot 124, bogeyed 16 with a back pin, and had a great time.
And Tom H. is right...green speed is a big issue, and it's a huge factor for playability on 16. It's certainly a better hole, more playable with more pin positions, and more fair, with green speeds at 9 or 9.5. I think the club is doing the right thing by slowing the greens up and focusing on smooth over fast....but remember that Pasatiempo is an unusual club that caters to both a private membership and the public, which forces interesting choices about how to set up the course.
Rob, I could play Pasatiempo every day for the rest of my life, to the exclusion of all other courses and be content.
It's simply spectacular.
And, given the size of those greens, you could probably play for a year and never have the same hole location.
The variety in hole locations is almost like no other course, it's simply marvelous.
I'm jealous, it's cold and there's snow on the ground in NJ and you get the benefit of playing Pasatiempo.
Enjoy and say "hello" to Ken Woods and John Zetterquist for me.