Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jay Flemma on March 18, 2008, 07:31:47 PM
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So I saw how some people thought that it was too negative to have a thread on course that disappoint. I understand why they say that, but I also think there is a public service to having that type of thread, so long as everyone is responsible about putting forth truthful reviews as opposed to just slamming a course for an agenda...
But let's turn it on it's ear...what courses totally shocked and surprised you in a GOOD way with how great they were, when you weren't expecting it?
1. Black Mesa and Tobacco Road. I knew they would be good, but man, the architecture and greens were even better!
2. Friar's Head
3. Ballyneal and Bayonne
I'll list more later...gotta show to go to.
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It was North Berwick for me. Starting with the tee shot at the second hole it just got better and better. I knew we were in for some special holes but didnt expect to have as much fun as we did. Hope to get back there some day!
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Nags Head Golf Links in Nags Head, North Carolina. It came outa nowhere.
www.nagsheadgolflinks.com
Neither long nor particularly scenic when it goes into the dunes away from the water, but fun and strategic with many short, thought-provoking, r/r par 4's across rolling terrain.
Just a real good time.
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Wilshire CC in Los Angeles. (Might be my favorite course in LA now)
Montclair in NJ
Essex County NJ
Forsgate NJ
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this topic has been discussed before (probably more than once) but here is a short list:
-Bellport Country Club-I had to pass up Bethpage Black to play there because of an invitation from a future nephew but then experienced a classic Seth Raynor course for the first time. Except for the 100+ mosquito bites it was an incredible experience.
-Rec Park (Long Beach): just a terrific Billy Bell course with tons of classic features, many hidden by changes in maintenance. Add The Emperor as tour guide and it was truly memorable.
-Stonebridge (LI): George Bahto's tribute to McRaynor, I drove out there after finding out BB had a tournament that day (I was in town visiting family) and just had a great time even though the course isn't overly difficult.
-Glenrothes Town Course (Scotland): I played this twice in the mid-80's while doing some training in the area and while I barely remember the golf course I do remember hitting driver/sand wedge downwind on a 420 yard par 4 and then Driver/3 wood to a 360 yard hole coming back into the wind. It gave me an appreciation for Scottish golf as it is on an unknown course that is really memorable, particularly since I played TOC on the same trip.
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Meadowlark- Hidden Behr course that is chock full of wild stuff. Loved it.
Soule Park (revamped Bell,jr/Hanse)- I won't get into detail because I'm sure everyone here is sick of me talking about it. ;)
Pacific Grove- I remember an article about 10 years ago in GD talking about it so when I visited the MP I thought I give it a whirl. Heck, it was only $25. It became an instant favorite.
Marine Memorial (Bell)- The conditions are not always good, but I was surprised by some very good par 4's there and one very good par 5. Come to think of it, I'll play it tomorrow. ;D
San Clemente (Bell)- Nothing of architectural note really, but the course overall was a pleasant surprise and I've been going back ever since.
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Wilshire CC in Los Angeles. (Might be my favorite course in LA now)
Montclair in NJ
Essex County NJ
Forsgate NJ
David,
Interestingly, all three courses you listed in NJ were Charles "Steamshovel" Banks efforts. Did you play the 4th nine at Montclair? Are you a fan of Banks work or was this just coincidence?
DEAN
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Santa Anita....A perfect golf course for me at this stage in my life. My only regret is that I didn't get to see the ponies run.
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3. Ballyneal and Bayonne
Jay,
Of all the newly built courses I have played, I was most impressed with Bayonne!
DEAN
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2. Friar's Head
3. Ballyneal and Bayonne
Jay,
You had low expectations for these two courses?!?! Or are you saying that even though you had high expectations, these three courses were good enough to still blow them away and pleasantly surprise you?
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The Dunes Club in Myrtle Beach
The renovated Seaside course at Sea Island.
Victoria Hills in Deland, Fl.
Birdwood in Charlottesville
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Let's see...
Caledonia Golf & Fish Club
Kingsbarns
Shepard's Hollow (Michigan)
Westfields (Northern VA)
Tidewater Plantation (North Myrtle Beach)
Mattaponi Springs (Ruther Glen, VA)
Cannon Ridge (Fredericksburg, VA)
Those are all well and good... Kingsbarns and Caledonia everyone has likely heard of, the rest are just little ole' publics that don't have the status of other courses discussed on here.
But then my biggest surprise perhaps ever.... Muirfield. I heard the hype, "oh it's the greatest time you'll have", "oh it's a fantastic course" blah blah blah. Holy cow, I was nowhere near prepared for my experience there. Fantastic course, we had the perfect day for it (overcast, little wind), wonderful hospitality, great food, everything. That's quite possibly my biggest surprise ever in golf.
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Boat of Garten
Firmest, fastest parkland course on the planet.
Gullane #1
Had always heard it was just a tough walk up the hill with great views. Wrong. Very good track
Luffness New
Not many Americans have played it. I was surprised that so little is said about it. Lots of fun.
Portmarnock (yellow nine)
This is the "relief" nine. Many holes are the equal of the red and blue nines. You can have a good time trying to figure out how to make a composite course out of the 3 nines that would be really something.
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Elgin Country Club in Elgin, Illinois. Tom Bendelow designed the course in 1901. At some point there looks to have been a redesign of 4-5 holes on the back-side (as the holes don't quite fit) but overall it is a fun fun course and has some awesome greens.
When first invited, I wasn't too excited about playing it....I now jump at the opportunity every time I'm invited.
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When I have time, I have a pretty big list, i will post
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I have to agree about Bayonne. It was stunning.
Sebonack also surpassed my expectations.
Baltusrol Upper really surprised me. Whenever I go back I want to play it.
Ballybunion Cashen. I liked it and had only heard lousy things about it.
Royal County Down. I wish I could play it all the time.
Pennard. I really didn't know what to expect but I certainly did not expect what I got. It is like nothing I have ever played.
Royal North Devon. I like it so much I joined.
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Affordables:
Wild Horse
Barona Creek
Rustic Canyon
Pinion Hills
Stevinson Ranch
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Glen Mills, thanks mayday
i expected a good course but the variety, neat bunkering, scenery, remarkable greens, and par threes were exceptonal
Harrison Hills, great terrain with so much vintage Langford
Oak Tree
Eastward Ho ! front nine
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Topping my list would be The Kingsley Club, I wasn't really sure what to expect and still put it in my top ten.
I expected a fair amount from Wolf Run and it exceeded those expectations. Its the hardest course I've played where trying to execute every shot was fun. Even after 36 holes had I not had to drive home I'd have gladly kept going. Same at Kingsley.
The Golf Club (Ohio) really impressed me as well, I think if I played everything it would pretty easily make the top 20 in the US.
Paa-Ko Ridge was fun the first time, but it was actually the second time where it was a pleasant surprise. I figured after playing some of the above courses that it wouldn't measure up. It doesn't match the three above, but its right behind Kingsley. Ditto Black Mesa.
Other courses I enjoyed perhaps more than expected originally: Tullymore, Castle Pines, Point O'Woods, Longaberger (its not as good as any other course I've mentioned, but not as bad as some here would make you believe)! ;D
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Kittansett after the renovation was a pleasant surprise.
A few years back I played Green Hill Golf Course outside Worcester. It was a fun layout, not a bad hole out there, and the condition for a muni was outstanding. Very surpised because I hadn't even heard of the course before.
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As opposed to pleasently surprised i would call it exceeded expectations
using that criteria :
courses that are not promiment on the various ranking lists or under the radar would include:
Longue Vue in Pittsburgh - might be my 2nd favorite in The Iron City
Forsgate (Banks)
Sunnehanna
St. Thomas in Union Ontario
Allegheny
The Sheep Ranch
Pacific Grove
Courses that were ranked on some lists but felt that they exceeded expectations or deserved higher rankings would include:
Atlantic City
Myopia Hunt Club
Scarboro
The Creek
Yale
Indian Creek
MPCC Shore Course
Indianwood Old
BCC Five Farms East
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Wilshire CC in Los Angeles. (Might be my favorite course in LA now)
Montclair in NJ
Essex County NJ
Forsgate NJ
David,
Interestingly, all three courses you listed in NJ were Charles "Steamshovel" Banks efforts. Did you play the 4th nine at Montclair? Are you a fan of Banks work or was this just coincidence?
DEAN
Actually I did not think of that at all while listing these. Sitting back now, I do love his designs, especially playing the first time out.
First time I play a course, I judge how I personally like them from my approach shots, and the greens. All these have great approach shots and par 3's.
I also did not know nor research who designed Wilshire until now. These also have another thing in common, and they are not long courses, but can hold up with any course.
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Know many members at Wilshire - but have not played it - thought it was designed by Norman Macbeth? please confirm!
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I am not a Rees Jones fan. Maybe that's why I was surprised that I really liked both Atlantic and Haig Point. Atlantic's biggest problem is the neighborhood it resides in. Its like the worst house on the nicest street in town. Just because there are bigger mansions down the street doesn't mean its not a very nice place. And I really enjoyed Haig Point. A very solid course in a beautiful setting. I thought it was just as good as Harbor Town.
The last place I will mention is the Club at Irish Creek. Very impressive. http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32910.0.html
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Bandon Trails. I expected it to be a step down from the other two but I loved the course. I really liked the varied environments you play through, the combination of wide fairways, centerline hazards and difficult greens. I enjoyed it as much as the other two courses there.
Shadow Creek - I don't know if the course is any good. I do know spending a relaxing afternoon in the shade of pine trees Memorial Day weekend was so much fun I did not really ever notice the golf holes. I just enjoyed the atmosphere.
Big Fish - went there with a group of college friends. Was shocked to be focused on the architecture rather than beer. Went from 18 green back to the 1st tee.
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1. Pine Dunes - Frankston, Tx (Morrish)
2. Sandia - Albuquerque, NM - Better than expected
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I neglected to mention one other very notable surprise: Deepdale. Many know of Deepdale for its toney membership, the Calcutta scandal and the recent eminent domain fight. But why doesn't Deepdale get any run for the quality of the course? I thought it was absolutely terrific in every way.
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Like Tommy, I didn't know to expect concerning Pennard. The place literally blew me away on my first go and in many respects it still does.
Somebody mentioned Shepherd's Hollow, I too was impressed after seeing more than a few of Hill's duds.
Brora knocked my socks off so much so that I may prefer it to Dornoch. I distinctly recall somebody saying that Brora isn't the sort of course one travels across an ocean to see - how wrong is that?
Whittington Heath really surprised me. I knew it would be decent, but its far better than that. I think if I got to know the place more my appreciation would increase.
Delamere Forest was a pleasant surprise as well. It has a wonderful feel of old fashioned golf mixed with newer style golf - though its all old. Nobody, but nobody could make a course sit at ease with itself like Fowler could.
Of course, I have to mention Kington. This is the best little course I have played that hardly anybody talks about. Its always in great nick and no matter how many times I have played the place there is always a surprise waiting somewhere. They say Pennard is a links in the sky, that title should be reserved for Kington.
Littlestone was another of those courses that just clicked the first time around - far better than I expected it to be - same thing for Princes. Both seem like they have been left behind somehow, but I have a lot of time for them.
Now then, Castletown, it was really a throw of the dice when I took my group to the Isle of Man. I really didn't know if it was a dud. Not many people know the course so the word on the street is in short supply. Like Littlestone & Princes, Castletown is a collection of good to very good holes with the added bonus of being in a lovely location. There is nothing tricked up or fancy, just pay your fee and enjoy the day. The hotel, well, thats a different matter!
Finally, Perranporth. What a little gem. I usually don't head out to play a course twice by myself on separate days, but my first go round Perranporth wasn't enough. Its the sort of place that many would say is too short, but what a risk it would be to bring someone in for "improvements".
Ciao
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Silloth. It still seems to fly under the radar but deserves far more love than it gets. It's comfortably top 50 in the UK and you can play for less than £40. If it was in Fife, or near Liverpool or in Kent it would be far better known.
Wolf Run. I'd readall the hype about how diificult it was and half expected some unplayable monster. What I got was a challenge on every hole, some I was up to, some I wasn't but I loved the course.
Kington. Just what golf should be about. Nothing to break your back but a shot making test none the less and an intimacy with nature that so many better "manicured" courses simply miss. A life enhancing round of golf.
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Muirfield - I'd read some fairly negative posts on here but was blown away by the incessant quality of the course and the ambience of the dining room at lunchtime.
I'd agree with Mark's comments re Silloth. It gets very little publicity and I didn't know what to expect on my first visit. I keep trying to arrange another trip but struggle to persuade people to go there as they've never heard of it!
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Know many members at Wilshire - but have not played it - thought it was designed by Norman Macbeth? please confirm!
Gerry
That is my understanding as well. My comments were directed at the NJ courses.
DEAN
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Brora
Albuquerque CC
Osprey Ridge
Cottonwood Hills
Longbow
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Daryl
Regards Luffness New Course. The club whilst open for visitors, is of the old school and like to keep to themselves. The value the connection with Old Tom but have declined to join The Old Tom Morris Golfing association we are trying to set up, for that very reason. As for the course, Old Tom attended many time and numerous modification to the course as was a very close friend of Mr Hope The Laird of Luffness, whose land the course was built on. It is worth the effort to play, but as I mentioned it is run by those from the old school.
Sean
Isle of Man
Castletown, interesting choice, but will not disagree, Did you get to play King Edward Bay at Douglas or Ramsey during your visit. Whilst I have not played either, a friend said he liked King Edward Bay? Of course all originally by Old Tom. Old Tom’s fourth course on the island was at the south end of Douglas (King Edward Bay being North) at Duchess Point. This course was closed and club moved inland for then moved back some years ago to within a mile of Old Tom original course – today it’s called Douglas Golf Club.
When playing it depends exactly what you are looking for but in Scotland you may be surprised with Bridge of Allan, Cullen, Strathpeffer Spa and maybe Tarland. In North England a nice 9 hole course ideal to break the journey at Warkworth (Northumberland) or Kirby Muxloe (Leicester).
As I get older I seem to have mellowed, so when able I tend to enjoy the courses more. Away from ‘the need for speed’ (a Top Gun quote I believe, but perhaps even more appropriate than ever with today’s golfers aids) I have become more aware of the course, looking more at the lay of the land as I walk to my ball. I still like to have the odd gamble, dare I risk it shot, but I have always played golf as I was taught by my father, for enjoyment, one good shot always outweighs a dozen bad or poor shots. Still true to this day.
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Plenty of courses have exceeded my expectation -- most notably Pine Valley and Merion -- but those for which I didn't have exceedingly high expectations and surprised me include:
Dooks
The Hideout
Tobacco Road
Commonwealth
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I like the term exceeded expectations too. I thought that each of the following courses would be good, but each also managed to surprise me in some way.
Oakmont. I knew that it was a great course, but I expected to be demoralized by it. It's very difficult, but far more playable and fun than I thought it would be.
County Louth. It doesn't get nearly the attention it deserves. One great hole after another. 36 there was one my top golf days ever.
Mountain Lake. Unlike any other Florida course that I have played. GCA did have me somewhat prepared for it, but there's nothing like seeing it for the first time.
Long Shadow. I didn't really know what to expect when I went down for the Dixie Cup. The course is outstanding. I wish I could play it every day.
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In the last two years:
Laurel Hill: Played this newer course in Northern Virginia for the first time two weeks ago, very challenging, wonderful use of elevation changes. Excellent variety in the par 3's.
Deerfield: Very much a sleeper course in Delaware, shorter Gordon's design with excellent long par 4's.
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Daryl
Regards Luffness New Course. The club whilst open for visitors, is of the old school and like to keep to themselves. The value the connection with Old Tom but have declined to join The Old Tom Morris Golfing association we are trying to set up, for that very reason. As for the course, Old Tom attended many time and numerous modification to the course as was a very close friend of Mr Hope The Laird of Luffness, whose land the course was built on. It is worth the effort to play, but as I mentioned it is run by those from the old school.
Sean
Isle of Man
Castletown, interesting choice, but will not disagree, Did you get to play King Edward Bay at Douglas or Ramsey during your visit. Whilst I have not played either, a friend said he liked King Edward Bay? Of course all originally by Old Tom. Old Tom’s fourth course on the island was at the south end of Douglas (King Edward Bay being North) at Duchess Point. This course was closed and club moved inland for then moved back some years ago to within a mile of Old Tom original course – today it’s called Douglas Golf Club.
When playing it depends exactly what you are looking for but in Scotland you may be surprised with Bridge of Allan, Cullen, Strathpeffer Spa and maybe Tarland. In North England a nice 9 hole course ideal to break the journey at Warkworth (Northumberland) or Kirby Muxloe (Leicester).
As I get older I seem to have mellowed, so when able I tend to enjoy the courses more. Away from ‘the need for speed’ (a Top Gun quote I believe, but perhaps even more appropriate than ever with today’s golfers aids) I have become more aware of the course, looking more at the lay of the land as I walk to my ball. I still like to have the odd gamble, dare I risk it shot, but I have always played golf as I was taught by my father, for enjoyment, one good shot always outweighs a dozen bad or poor shots. Still true to this day.
Melvyn
No, we only played the links for a few days. Some fancy dan company owns the place. They want to modernize the course and build a 4/5 star hotel. I think plans were put on the back burner for the course, but the hotel may be in the process of being updated or more likely knocked down and rebuilt. What a place! It was a classic seaside Faulty Towers, but the location is brilliant. Paying the day rate made it so easy to hop on and off the course throughout the day as we pleased. Assuming prices don't sky-rocket I would go back in a heartbeat. I think its maybe £50 for a day ticket with prices dropped by £20 or so if you just want to play a twilight game.
Ciao
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Cory - I'm with you on Deerfield, and almost mentioned it myself. I remember playing when it was a DuPont track. Some really fine holes there. -Dan
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Jay, you will like this...
Royal New Kent was a blow away surprise...
interestingly, Tobacco Road was a mild disappointment...but I blame that on Royal New Kent...
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Peninsula County CC (North) in Melbourne, AUS
Portsea GC on the Mornington Peninsula, AUS
Both courses have undergone extensive renovation by Michael Clayton, and are, unfortunately, not on the radar screen of most overseas visitors to Australia. They are not Royal Melbourne or Barnbougle Dunes, but they should not be overlooked, or else, you're missing out on some fine golf.
TK
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Cory/Jim,
Glad to hear it from both of you.
Laurel Hill and Royal New Kent are on my "MUST PLAY" list for 2008.
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A few I played in 2008 that really jump to mind without looking at my notes;
Leatherstocking
Long Shadow
Valley (PA) Tillinghast
DuPont (DE) re-do by Lester
Five Farms
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The Mackenzie Course at University of Michigan. I just fell in love with it. My favorite course I played for the first time in 2007. You know how some places you visit for the first time and they feel like home? That's how this felt.
Bethpage Black. Sure I heard it was great. But I didn't realize how great. I liked it better than Oakmont, the only other US Open venue I've played (until June when Torrey gets added to my list). And I just love playing a walking only course.
A few vacation sort of courses that pleasantly surprised me:
King's North in Myrtle Beach was more fun than I expected
The Heritage (especially when I close my eyes and imagine no houses) is really fun, I love the oaks
The Links at Grand National on the RTJ Trail
SCGA Members Club was an unexpectedly fun few rounds for me, too, my one visit there.
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The ones that we're much better than expected are all based upon they we're a blast to play. All had shots you want to try, did not beat you senseless
- Morgan Hill - how cool are the uphill & downhill holes!!
- Yahnandasis - great routing, great greens
- Old Kinderhook
- Marion - late summer evening chasing daylight - how cool is the 9th hole - 100 yards downhill to a blind green behind a stone wall & bunker!!
- Wildhorse
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I will 2nd the Hideout in Monticello, UT as well...a really neat course.
And even though I already had high expectations going in, Pacific Dunes exceeded them.
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The Mackenzie Course at University of Michigan. I just fell in love with it. My favorite course I played for the first time in 2007. You know how some places you visit for the first time and they feel like home? That's how this felt.
Bethpage Black. Sure I heard it was great. But I didn't realize how great. I liked it better than Oakmont, the only other US Open venue I've played (until June when Torrey gets added to my list). And I just love playing a walking only course.
A few vacation sort of courses that pleasantly surprised me:
King's North in Myrtle Beach was more fun than I expected
The Heritage (especially when I close my eyes and imagine no houses) is really fun, I love the oaks
The Links at Grand National on the RTJ Trail
SCGA Members Club was an unexpectedly fun few rounds for me, too, my one visit there.
I would include Kings North and both courses at Grand National on my list.
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Fenway because its nearby breathren (Winged Foot and Quaker Ridge) get more ink. Didn't realize how great it was because I had heard less about it going in.
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Gullane #1
Western Gailes
Dooks
Baltimore Five Farms
Southern Pines (Elks)
Whiskey Creek
Mayacama
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Gullane #2
Fraserburgh
Dunbar
Montrose
Pajaro Valley
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3. Ballyneal and Bayonne
Jay,
Of all the newly built courses I have played, I was most impressed with Bayonne!
DEAN
Wasn't that wonderful? I mean he pulled off the cross over! The terracing effect was inspired!
I also would be remiss if I didn't mention Knoll Club, those greens swept me off my feet. Becca may have my keeping, those greens have my heart ;D
A couple others: Arcadia Bluffs, Crystal Downs, Baltimore CC (East), OAKMONT OAKMONT OAKMONT.
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Jay, you will like this...
Royal New Kent was a blow away surprise...
interestingly, Tobacco Road was a mild disappointment...but I blame that on Royal New Kent...
I'm so glad you liked RNK! What did you think of the first three holes? Is that one of the toughest starts in golf? Or at least most intimidating? What were some of your fave holes there?
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Caladonia. Couldn't believe how much Stranz packed into the little piece of ground.
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Riviera - I figured it'd be solid, but even after walking it several times, playing it was an eye-opening experience - it's a "wow" course to play and it just works so well
Prairie Dunes - Again, figured it'd be good but (Huckaby, avert your eyes...) it was much more fun than I'd guessed...and more playable. I was afraid of how penal and narrow it would be but it's far from that.
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The Mackenzie Course at University of Michigan. I just fell in love with it. My favorite course I played for the first time in 2007. You know how some places you visit for the first time and they feel like home? That's how this felt.
I am really happy to hear that as that is the course where I learned to play (during my college year). I really didn't appreciate the course as much as I should have when I was there. Now I wish I can play it at least a couple of times a year.
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Caladonia. Couldn't believe how much Stranz packed into the little piece of ground.
I love Caledonia. I didn't include it because it wasn't a surprise to me given what I think of Strantz. But I love it. I want to retire to Pawleys Island! The Heritage in the morning, Caledonia in the afternoon. Evenings on my verandah with my dogs.
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Kinloch ( NZ )-From what I had read about his courses and my only experience at Lakelands in Australia, this course exceeded my expecations. The variety of shots needed and the nature of the bunkering were 2 outstanding features.
MPCC Shore-I new it was good but the par 3's and 5's are outstanding.
Spyglass-the inland holes were better than expected.
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...(during my college year)
Glad to hear my college years can average with someone else to meet the standard four or five years...
Jay,
I was skeptical going through #1 but was totally blown away when I got up to my drive on #2 and remain blown away today.
RNK is the one course I would accept as a piece of art that should be left as the architect left it...in part because it is not a feasible golf course to me because the routing destroys any continuity you might seek (actually an important concept to me). Also becuase it was so unique to anything I had seen before...or since, really. TR just didn't measure up in my eyes.
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I would also include Riviera as the strategic value of the holes were even better than expected.
Also, in reading the Rees Jones post, Blackstone National in Sutton MA was a pleasant surprise.
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Cypress Point - the picture jsut don't do it justice.
Lawsonia - Surprised no one messed it up - get untouched throw back course. I experienced it before the retro-redo era started.
Oakmont - Was ready for all the bunkers but it was the use of the grassy drainage ditches that really got my attentiion, Also, I couldn't fathom how such big greens could play so small (until I couldn't stop it from going 50' past)
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Lawsonia - Surprised no one messed it up - get untouched throw back course. I experienced it before the retro-redo era started.
Tim, I concur about Lawsonia - what a throwback and isn't wonderful very few things have been done to it?!?! I read they have finally removed the in-hindsight poorly planted grove of cedars to the right of #8 and #9. Were the cedars still in existence when you played?
By removing the trees to the right of #8, you can now see the green from the tee and the golfer is tempted to drive it right at the green, when in fact, driving away from the green down the left side of the fairway is the preferred line.
And I always thought the grove of trees (planted in straight rows and looking quite out of place on the site) to the right of #9 were poorly done. A drive hit to the right is in enough trouble without the cedars to make it worse.
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How could I have forgotten Long Shadow? Next to Crystal Downs, I haven't been that impressed by a course for several years. And what a bargain.
Shivas,
I agree about Bethpage Black. I don't understand how Wayne Morrison and Matt Ward were disappointed. Perhaps the greens? I thought that for the type of long, brawny course that the Black is, the large, not heavily undulating greens provide a near-perfect balance.
I was also pleasantly surprised by Quaker Ridge and its sister course up the road a few miles whose name presently escapes me (one of Dr. Childs's favorites), but is just a smaller version also by Tillie.
Crystal Downs is outright world-class and a huge pleasant surprise. While I like Prairie Dunes a lot, I consider it to be CD's poorer cousin. Thin out the natives/gunch, and I think it would be a much better course. The original nine holes by Perry Maxwell are masterful.
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Lou...Fenway?
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Lou,
There are several things I did not like about Bethpage Black. The greens certainly were a disappointment. I think the bunkering was way over the top both in numbers, size and repetitious and contrived shapes. Where there was interesting topography, it was overwhelmed by the bunkers. I am used to elevation changes so that aspect of the course was not new and different. When I'm on Long Island, I have no interest at all to go to Bethpage Black. I haven't seen any of the other courses (except as seen from BB) so I cannot comment on those. I thought Bethpage was an above average golf course, at the bottom of a top-100 classic list, nothing more.
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Palmetto Golf Club
Prior to my trip to Aiken I literally knew nothing about the golf course expect that I knew if my host was a member there that it must be pretty good.
It was my first experience to Mackenzie bunkers, which I must admit I was never to keene of based on my looking through pictures. Lets just say that has changed.
After driving 3 hours to make the 9am tee time, and quickly changing my shoes in the parking lot :o, eased into the golf course. We started by playing the loop of 16-17-18. When i got to 18 I knew I was in for a treat. When we came to 1, and I dont know if its all my rounds at Bethpage Red and Black, but I love a downhill opener.
On a previous thread some said that some holes will make you shake your head, however I'm still trying to remember which one.
The opening stretch of holes are fantastic, number 5 is one of the best par 4's in the country---according to Ben Hogan!
7 is one of the best par 3s, death winks at you if you miss right.
11 is an unbelievable par 3 downhill, and 12 is a great par 4 demanding you get the angle right off the tee.
15 is one of the best short par 4s I have played, something very rare it seems these days.
All in all the place is classic. So classic that I begged our host to skip out on Aiken Golf Club for another go at Palmetto. I hope places like Palmetto are still around when I grow up.
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3. Ballyneal and Bayonne
Jay,
Of all the newly built courses I have played, I was most impressed with Bayonne!
DEAN
Wasn't that wonderful? I mean he pulled off the cross over! The terracing effect was inspired!
I also would be remiss if I didn't mention Knoll Club, those greens swept me off my feet. Becca may have my keeping, those greens have my heart ;D
A couple others: Arcadia Bluffs, Crystal Downs, Baltimore CC (East), OAKMONT OAKMONT OAKMONT.
Is that the Charles Banks NJ Knoll?
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Plainfield
Pine Needles
Rolling Green
I knew all were good, but I liked them even better
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Although I played it for the first time over 5 years ago, the course that surprised me a lot was Lehigh CC. Before my enlightened CGA days I really didn't know much about Flynn's course at the time and I remember finishing and at once wanting to head straight to the first tee again. I loved it.
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Dean, yes it is the Charles Banks Knoll...with an BIG assist from George Bahto.
JES, yes that second hole is really something isn't she? Don't you worry, thereb is an active preservation campaign that quietly runs behind the scenes to preserve Mike's precious heritage.
Here's a couple more...Hiawatha Landing, Bulls Bay, Conklin, Greystone, Red Tail, Black Rock (Boston).
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Several courses from the Jones family.
In theory I'm against them, but I've had fun at -
Atlanta Athletic Club (the other (not the David Toms) course shortly after Rees's reworking)
Valderama
Sotogrande. I could happily move there.
Penha Longa (assigned to Jnr, but Kyle Phillips's work I think)
I even enjoyed Fazio's rework of Seaside at Sea Island, but no more than I enjoyed the existing course, maybe less, but I expected much less.. mind you, the clubhouse (no I won't shut up about it) is a monstrosity. The old one was fine, down home and slightly worm at the edges.
I was disappointed by World Woods Pine Barrens - Eye Candy as La Mucci would say - but I enjoyed Rolling Oaks.
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Hiya, Lloyd! Nice to see you swinging on my vine! (That's a Phish reference, not a Jim Rome reference).
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Dean, yes it is the Charles Banks Knoll...with an BIG assist from George Bahto.
Jay,
I grew up at the Knoll in its heyday (60's and 70's)! It was wonderful then and George is doing a herculean job with the restoration now. If he didn't have to deal with the politics, it would be done already!
DEAN
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Atlantic City
Essex County NJ
The Knoll NJ
Leatherstocking
I had heard things about ACCC before I played there, but I was really blown away by the course, it is in my top 10, which despite my horrid game, is a pretty decent list.
I grew up maybe 20 miles from both the Knoll and Essex County and had never even heard of them until I got on this website, when I told my NJ friends I was going to the Knoll, they tried to talk me out of it, saying it was in bad shape and not a good course (this was before the renovation), but I went anyway, and I thought it was terriffic. Essex was great as well, very well done, we played it after their renovation, and it was amazing how much different it looked with all the trees cut back and the greens restored.
I am looking forward to seeing the knoll post renovation this summer.
Again, with Leatherstocking, I had never heard of it until I got on the board here. I had passed it a few times when in Cooperstown, but I didnt really know anything about it. Wow, what a fun course, the holes across the street are really fun to play, and the course is just full of quirk, which I like a lot. Great fun to play.
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Wild Horse. I played this course five years ago knowing nothing about the course and was blown away with the course and its setting, very cool.
Paa-Ko-Ridge. I knew this was a highly ranked track going in but it exceeded my expectations, very beautiful course, fun to play.
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Robert E,
Yes, Fenway. Requires great shotmaking from the start. The only hole I didn't care for was the long par 3 up with the green up against the clubhouse (swimming pool?).
Wayne M,
Your point on the bunkering is well taken. It is excessive, particularly when you consider that it is a municipal course with some budget constraints on maintenance. Nevertheless, the bunkering seemed to fit the large scale of the course and I didn't perceive them as overwhelming or otherwise confining.
Lloyd C,
What is it about Sotogrande that made such an impression? Valderrama was in renovation for the Ryder Cup so I didn't get to play it. Aren't the two courses very similar, with the newer Valderrama maintained to a much higher standard? I liked Sotogrande better than Las Brisas, but I had expected more than an upgrade on the much too common RTJ Sr. model. Some nice ground movement through parts of the course and cool cork trees, but nothing real unique.
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Lloyd C,
What is it about Sotogrande that made such an impression? Valderrama was in renovation for the Ryder Cup so I didn't get to play it. Aren't the two courses very similar, with the newer Valderrama maintained to a much higher standard? I liked Sotogrande better than Las Brisas, but I had expected more than an upgrade on the much too common RTJ Sr. model. Some nice ground movement through parts of the course and cool cork trees, but nothing real unique.
Lou
Sotogrande was nothing like Valderama. It is wide open for much of the front nine with plenty of room for a hook or slice yet rewarding the correctly placed drive, often with better visibility, or stance. It tightens up when the water comes into play later in the round, but not much. I'd say it was a great resort course where you can go low, but you won't unless you play well. I did play very well by my standards and Lawrence, my old pal, who is about the same as I am as a player really struggled, being just slightly off his game...
Valderama is another kind of fun and many would say it is no fun at all. It is Carnoustie difficult. I won the gross with a 91. I don't mind that, we weren't playing medal anyway except for the 'you won't break 90' side bet. It is very narrow and the bunkers in the air are in play almost every shot. Wrong side of the fairway is not dead, but it is hugely disadvantaged versus the correct play. Distance control is also key as many of the holes dogleg through the cork oaks. My one really terrible drive left me in the oaks with only one recovery angle - straight back to the tee. Worse than 3 off the tee really as I wasn't teeing up the next one. It is very beautiful, greener and more secluded than Sotogrande and they know it. Visitors are not welcomed so much as tolerated, which at almost Eu300, is disgraceful.
It is a great spot for a getaway if you have a few $$ to spare. We went late January - it was deserted and weather was fine. San Roque, where we stayed, was fun too, and tough. If we returned I'd play Sotogrande every morning and alternate the others in the afternoons.
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Lloyd C,
What is it about Sotogrande that made such an impression? Valderrama was in renovation for the Ryder Cup so I didn't get to play it. Aren't the two courses very similar, with the newer Valderrama maintained to a much higher standard? I liked Sotogrande better than Las Brisas, but I had expected more than an upgrade on the much too common RTJ Sr. model. Some nice ground movement through parts of the course and cool cork trees, but nothing real unique.
Lou
Sotogrande was nothing like Valderama. It is wide open for much of the front nine with plenty of room for a hook or slice yet rewarding the correctly placed drive, often with better visibility, or stance. I like that, it doesn't dictate to you. It tightens up when the water comes into play later in the round, but not much. I'd say it was a great resort course where you can go low, but you won't unless you play well. I did play very well by my standards and Lawrence, my old pal, who is about the same as I am as a player really struggled, being just slightly off his game...
Valderama is another kind of fun and many would say it is no fun at all. It is Carnoustie difficult. I won the gross with a 91. I don't mind that, we weren't playing medal anyway except for the 'you won't break 90' side bet. It is very narrow and the bunkers in the air are in play almost every shot. Wrong side of the fairway is not dead, but it is hugely disadvantaged versus the correct play. Distance control is also key as many of the holes dogleg through the cork oaks. This is a great challenge, but not much of a mental one because if you know how far you can hit it, there is one obvious strategy per hole. I recall very little 'should I try to carry the corner?' - it was more 'here's your task - execute.' I think it might be more fun, in that respect for the long hitter, as there would be more risk reward options. But that 18th that you see the pros cut the corner - Not an option for we humans - I hit a good drive as close as I dared to the tree line and had 240 uphill left and I almost got there!!! My one really terrible drive left me in the oaks with only one recovery angle - straight back to the tee. Worse than 3 off the tee really as I wasn't teeing up the next one. It is very beautiful, greener and more secluded than Sotogrande and they know it. Visitors are not welcomed so much as tolerated, which at almost Eu300, is disgraceful.
It is a great spot for a getaway if you have a few $$ to spare. We went late January - it was deserted and weather was fine. San Roque, where we stayed, was fun too, and tough. If we returned I'd play Sotogrande every morning and alternate the others in the afternoons.
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A few from the left coast that I had little expectations but was pleasantly surprised would be
Darkhorse G.C in Auburn Calif. - Fantastic Keith Foster design in the Sierra foothills.
Running Y Ranch - Most Palmer designs draw a critical eye from GCA, but for me this one was a great track
San Diego CC - Didn't know much about the course, but walked away eagerly awaiting another invite.
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believe it or not i was pleasantly surprised by Torrey South--only because it's kicked in the teeth so often that I was expecting a completely chewed up muni that was artificially long and gouged non-residents solely because of the television exposure.
while certainly not the best course i've ever played, and not entirely the best experience (6 hour round? didn't completely mind since I played in February and it was 30 degrees back home on the east coast) it's easy to say my expectations were a lot lower going into the round than my opinions following it...
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Chris,
If you lower your expectations enough then every course becomes a pleasant surprise!! ;)
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Wilmington CC (South)
The Captains, on Cape Cod. The original 18 is quite good.
Eastward Ho!. I thought it would be good. It is better than that.
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Juniper GC and Bandon Crossings GC.
Generally, golf courses that receive less fanfare usually exceed my expectations. Golf is fun and there are lots of nice courses. Stating the obvious for you is...
Just another JK
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The Legends Golf Club in Clermont, FL is one. The old Green course at Bethpage is another (if you ignore the pace of play issues). RTJ's Lido Golf Club, so long as you aren't trying to compare it to the original was more fun than I thought as well - I think there, the only problem is the course is a little too flat, and that adding contours (particularly to the greens) could make that a great course.
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*Franklin Hills - great Ross course that may be the best in the Detroit area
*Wolf Creek - some said I would absolutely hate it before I played, but it was an overall solid course and I love the "golf on steroids" layout
*Tanglewood Park (Championship) - for the price ($35 or less) you can't beat it. A great course.
*Yeamans Hall - didn't think a course that flat could be that much fun.
-Brian
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Wow, world class golf courses can "pleasantly surprise" you guys? Remind me to exclude you from any of my juries.
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Lloyd,
I spent three weeks in Marbella during the early 1990s marketing for sale several companies in the hotel, golf, and residential development businesses. I played Golf Rio Real and Los Naranjos numerous times, Las Brisas, Sotogrande, and couple of others less frequently. Sotogrande was my favorite, though I can't say I was overwhelmed by any of them. I wish Valderrama had been opened, but based on your description, it is not my type of course anyways.
The surroundings at Sotogrande were very pleasant, but I would have a hard time living there. Hopefully they've made some progress with their roads and freeway. My recollection of Sotogrande is that I spent quite a bit of time on the backside trying to hit punch shots to elevated greens from under the trees, and that I had a hard time getting the ball up and down. Thanks for the input.
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NCR South-I have never been that impressed with the Dick Wilson work that I had seen. Coldstream in Cincinnati is a very challenging course but if you looked at it with no context you would swear you are in Florida (with a number of retention ponds used as hazards and some uninspiring holes). His work at Scioto really sucked much of the Ross character out of a grand old course (especially the dreadful 8th hole-which one of the teaching pros at Scioto considers "horrible"-again, Florida transplanted to Ohio). So my expectations were very low at NCR. Nevertheless, it is a terrific golf course. While the first hole is not too memorable, the remainder of the golf course is challenging and fair...a classic parkland test with nary a water hazard. In particular, the back nine is very strong...beginning with a heaving and yawning par five, followed by a neat medium length par four with a challenging approach into a narrow green with great bunkers, a world class par 4 at number 12 and a very good par three at number 13. The other thing that stood out to me at NCR were the greens...terrific movement and contours with false fronts (as on the par five 10th) or drop-offs (such as the first par five on the front...I believe it is number 5). I put it toward the top of my Ohio list (with The Golf Club being at the top). I assumed that NCR would be comparable to Firestone South (which I find to be a challenging course but, for the most part, uninteresting). Boy, was I wrong.
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Bill
I totally agree, the routing over the hilly terrain makes for a great tee shot
course. several excellent par fours and par fives. As you said a magnificent set of large, bold ,undulating greens. Scenic, elegant,challenging, above all fun to play !!
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Pennard
Tenby
Nefyn & District
back nine at Porthmadog
Cruit Island
Rosapenna Sandy Hills links
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Bill Steele,
I love NCR-South , even with that ball-busting, round wrecking first hole. Nice topography and a very solid course throughout. Many fond memories of driving out from Columbus in the morning for a quick 18 then down to Cincinnati to catch the Reds play Pittsburgh in twi-night double-headers.
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Merion WEST. In most cities, this could easily be the best golf course in town. For Merion, it's not even their best.
Hidden Creek - who knew you could do that at the edge of the NJ Pinelands. A bit of the Sandhills in NJ.
Torrey Pines NORTH - OK - it's not the best architecture anywhere, but the combination of the course, the scenery, and the sounds of the ocean are tough to beat - especially for a muni. The 6th hole is very memorable.