Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Richard Phinney on February 20, 2008, 11:40:45 AM
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Thanks for the great input on a similar thread and I promise this will be the last one...
How would you rank Crail; Elie, Leven and Lundin if you could only play one (or two).
Cheers.
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Richard:
I would rank the four courses as follows in order of my personal preference:
1. Elie - one of my favorite "B" level courses in Scotland, from the submarine periscope on the 1st tee, a couple of first-class holes alongside the North Sea, a short and truly enjoyable course, and the neat Golf Tavern alongside the 4th tee and 17th green (definitely worth a stop for a pint or two after (or during) your round).
2. Crail (Balcomie) - just a really fun links course with a clubhouse that features great views and a nice bar/dining area where you can share a pint with the locals. A bit on the short side and perhaps not as good a "test" of golf as Lundin, but as much fun as anyone could ask for in a round of golf.
3. Lundin - the first few holes alongside the sea are wonderful (as is the 18th) and the views from the par five 13th and par three 14th out over the Lundin and Leven golf courses are spectacular, but not quite as much fun as Elie and Crail in my opinion.
4. Leven - my least favorite of the four courses, but still a course I would enjoy playing on a daily basis. Not sure I'll ever figure out how best to play the 18th hole, with the grassy area in the middle of the fairway and the long second shot over the burn. Into a breeze, one of the toughest finsihing holes in links golf.
Mike
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Mike, I agree with your ranking, but only the on the strength of a couple of rounds each at Elie and Crail and one each at Lundin and Leven.
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I am playing all 4 of these courses this week. I know Crail & Elie well, have never stepped foot on Lundin and last played Leven when I was a 13 year old so couldn’t really remember a thing.
Let me tell you, I’ve just stepped off Leven yesterday and it is an awesome course.
Perfect ground contours, highly individual holes and some lovely green movement. Way exceeded expectations.
Only reservation I might have is playing it in a big wind on an off-day with lush rough. I had none of those things but it could possibly seem too tight in the wrong conditions.
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Well clearly Elie is no. 1 as it has the Ship Inn. Lundin and Leven are neck and neck since they share the same chip shop/pubs, while Crail is clearly last without a decent pub to talk of.
Niall
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1. Elie
2. Leven
3. Lundin
4. Crail
There's no great space between all of them
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Well clearly Elie is no. 1 as it has the Ship Inn. Lundin and Leven are neck and neck since they share the same chip shop/pubs, while Crail is clearly last without a decent pub to talk of.
Niall
Finally -an objective based quantitative analysis
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Elie
Lundin
Leven
Crail
It's odd with Balcomie. Lots of really good golf (1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 15, 15, 17 and 18 are all at least very good) and I've played some of my best competitive golf there but for some reason it doesn't grab me the way Elie and Lundin do. Leven's new holes may be a bit better than Lundin but I do think Lundin has the best of the original 18.
As Rich says, not a huge amount between any of them and all places I'd happily play a lot of golf.
I should declare my slight bias in being a member of two of them.
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Elie > Lundin > Leven > Crail
That’s my ranking anyway but, as has already been stated, you wouldn’t go wrong with a game on any of the four.
I’ve played Leven more than the other three combined and my view is that it’s a solid course which is of generally the same level all of the way round. It doesn’t quite hit the highs of Lundin (that said, Leven isn’t as up and down in terms of quality yet Lundin is better as an overall package) nor does it have the charm of Elie, which is just a really enjoyable place to play with its great short par fours, terrific pair of par threes and testing back nine.
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For me, Elie is so far in front that the four aren't comparable. Crail, Lundin and Leven are more or less in the same class. I would probably take Crail over the others because of the views, but it has just as many if not more very good holes. Bottom line, the one of the four I am really interested in seeing again is Elie...these others are good enough golf, but really trip fillers.
Ciao
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Played all four for the first time in April.
Elie
Lundin
Crail
Leven
It's a close call between Lundin and Crail -- Crail has higher highs than Lundin, but I felt the overall consistency of holes at Lundin was better from a strategic standpoint.
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For me, Elie is so far in front that the four aren't comparable. Crail, Lundin and Leven are more or less in the same class. I would probably take Crail over the others because of the views, but it has just as many if not more very good holes. Bottom line, the one of the four I am really interested in seeing again is Elie...these others are good enough golf, but really trip fillers.
Ciao
Agree with this.
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1. Elie
2. Leven
3. Lundin
4. Crail
There's no great space between all of them
I agree with everything in this post (despite my love of Crail).
Elie is better kept than the others and has some fine individual architectural features but there certainly isn’t much daylight between it and some of the fantastic holes at both Leven and Lundin.
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Richard:
I would rank the four courses as follows in order of my personal preference:
1. Elie - one of my favorite "B" level courses in Scotland, from the submarine periscope on the 1st tee, a couple of first-class holes alongside the North Sea, a short and truly enjoyable course, and the neat Golf Tavern alongside the 4th tee and 17th green (definitely worth a stop for a pint or two after (or during) your round).
2. Crail (Balcomie) - just a really fun links course with a clubhouse that features great views and a nice bar/dining area where you can share a pint with the locals. A bit on the short side and perhaps not as good a "test" of golf as Lundin, but as much fun as anyone could ask for in a round of golf.
3. Lundin - the first few holes alongside the sea are wonderful (as is the 18th) and the views from the par five 13th and par three 14th out over the Lundin and Leven golf courses are spectacular, but not quite as much fun as Elie and Crail in my opinion.
4. Leven - my least favorite of the four courses, but still a course I would enjoy playing on a daily basis. Not sure I'll ever figure out how best to play the 18th hole, with the grassy area in the middle of the fairway and the long second shot over the burn. Into a breeze, one of the toughest finsihing holes in links golf.
Mike
I agree with Mike, and for the reasons he stated too.
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Richard:
I would rank the four courses as follows in order of my personal preference:
1. Elie - one of my favorite "B" level courses in Scotland, from the submarine periscope on the 1st tee, a couple of first-class holes alongside the North Sea, a short and truly enjoyable course, and the neat Golf Tavern alongside the 4th tee and 17th green (definitely worth a stop for a pint or two after (or during) your round).
2. Crail (Balcomie) - just a really fun links course with a clubhouse that features great views and a nice bar/dining area where you can share a pint with the locals. A bit on the short side and perhaps not as good a "test" of golf as Lundin, but as much fun as anyone could ask for in a round of golf.
3. Lundin - the first few holes alongside the sea are wonderful (as is the 18th) and the views from the par five 13th and par three 14th out over the Lundin and Leven golf courses are spectacular, but not quite as much fun as Elie and Crail in my opinion.
4. Leven - my least favorite of the four courses, but still a course I would enjoy playing on a daily basis. Not sure I'll ever figure out how best to play the 18th hole, with the grassy area in the middle of the fairway and the long second shot over the burn. Into a breeze, one of the toughest finsihing holes in links golf.
Mike
I agree with Mike, and for the reasons he stated too.
Doug
If views from the clubhouse float your boat, so be it. If so, visit Aberdour. The views from there over to Edinburgh blows Crail into the German Sea.
Rich
PS--how's the blackthorn project getting on? Last time I visited Kelly he was still infested.
rfg
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The best view on a fine day at Crail isn't from the clubhouse, or the course, it's your first view of the sea as you come over the crest of the hill on the road to the clubhouse.
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For me, Elie is so far in front that the four aren't comparable. Crail, Lundin and Leven are more or less in the same class. I would probably take Crail over the others because of the views, but it has just as many if not more very good holes. Bottom line, the one of the four I am really interested in seeing again is Elie...these others are good enough golf, but really trip fillers.
Ciao
Sean,
Would you change this after Friday's visit to Lundin and Leven? I know I would now reverse the two in my ranking.
Mark
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For me, Elie is so far in front that the four aren't comparable. Crail, Lundin and Leven are more or less in the same class. I would probably take Crail over the others because of the views, but it has just as many if not more very good holes. Bottom line, the one of the four I am really interested in seeing again is Elie...these others are good enough golf, but really trip fillers.
Ciao
Sean,
Would you change this after Friday's visit to Lundin and Leven? I know I would now reverse the two in my ranking.
Mark
Mark,
Does this mean you would now take Leven over Lundin when previously it was the other way round?
If so, I’m with you. I like the compactness of Leven, a few quirky holes, some great undulation and some lovely green contours.
Lundin has its share of excellent holes but it’s a longer round and I can’t forgive the three or four holes on heavier grasses and lesser ground.
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Elie > Lundin > Leven > Crail
That was my order as well.
On second thought, though, I should maybe have Crail at #2. I have never played Lundin or Leven, because I can’t stand the thought of going onto the “new” holes for either one; every time I have walked them I’ve stuck to the original, combined eighteen.
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The once-a-year delight that is the McDonald Cup (no relation) allows the members of Lundin Golf Club, Leven Golfing Society and Leven Thistle to play the original 18.
What a Golf Course it is! I’ve waxed extremely lyrically about it here before. If it was ever to be fully resurrected, it would be right up there amongst Scotland’s very finest.
The boys played Lundin and Leven on Friday. I wonder if they could combine the holes in their heads and give an opinion!
F.
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The original course must definitely be one of the greatest, Marty.
Would love to try it just once.
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The once-a-year delight that is the McDonald Cup (no relation) allows the members of Lundin Golf Club, Leven Golfing Society and Leven Thistle to play the original 18.
What a Golf Course it is! I’ve waxed extremely lyrically about it here before. If it was ever to be fully resurrected, it would be right up there amongst Scotland’s very finest.
The boys played Lundin and Leven on Friday. I wonder if they could combine the holes in their heads and give an opinion!
F.
I believe Royal Aberdeen and the immediately adjacent Murcar have just started something similar (although in the case of RA-M they were never one course).
Atb
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Marty,
I’ve tried to do that in my head over and over since Friday. I can’t help but feel it would probably be the best course I’ve played in Scotland (Dornoch & TOC the two leaders otherwise)
Can you just confirm, was the routing Leven 1-5, Lundin 15-18, Lundin 1-5, Leven 13-15 & 18?
TBH I am still on a bit of a high from Leven. It blew me away. The start, the finish and most points in between.
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Marty,
I’ve tried to do that in my head over and over since Friday. I can’t help but feel it would probably be the best course I’ve played in Scotland (Dornoch & TOC the two leaders otherwise)
Can you just confirm, was the routing Leven 1-5, Lundin 15-18, Lundin 1-5, Leven 13-15 & 18?
TBH I am still on a bit of a high from Leven. It blew me away. The start, the finish and most points in between.
Exactly right, mate. Played from either end alternate years.
Which of course is the right routing to put the original 7th as the Leven Hole. (Lundin 16 now).
High praise indeed! Glad you liked Leven. We’re the greens as good as next door?
Cheers,
M.
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For me, Elie is so far in front that the four aren't comparable. Crail, Lundin and Leven are more or less in the same class. I would probably take Crail over the others because of the views, but it has just as many if not more very good holes. Bottom line, the one of the four I am really interested in seeing again is Elie...these others are good enough golf, but really trip fillers.
Ciao
Sean,
Would you change this after Friday's visit to Lundin and Leven? I know I would now reverse the two in my ranking.
Mark
Mark,
Does this mean you would now take Leven over Lundin when previously it was the other way round?
If so, I’m with you. I like the compactness of Leven, a few quirky holes, some great undulation and some lovely green contours.
Lundin has its share of excellent holes but it’s a longer round and I can’t forgive the three or four holes on heavier grasses and lesser ground.
Absolutely. The difference between the two is in the "new" holes. Playing both on Friday I was more impressed than I have been before by the quality of the new holes at Leven. Far better than those at Lundin. They're on proper links ground and there's far more character to them. Perhaps the highest praise is that on several we had to think hard as to whether holes were "new" or original. And a great set of greens. Leven was undoubtedly the scruffiest presented course we played last week but that meant it was the firmest and sportiest, which showed it off brilliantly.
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For me, Elie is so far in front that the four aren't comparable. Crail, Lundin and Leven are more or less in the same class. I would probably take Crail over the others because of the views, but it has just as many if not more very good holes. Bottom line, the one of the four I am really interested in seeing again is Elie...these others are good enough golf, but really trip fillers.
Ciao
Sean,
Would you change this after Friday's visit to Lundin and Leven? I know I would now reverse the two in my ranking.
Mark
Mark
I haven't properly sorted it out in my head yet. I still don't think any of the three seriously challenge Elie for the top spot. Regardless, Leven has taken a big leap in my estimation. It may have two All - Scotland candidates in 14 and 18...for sure 14. I have no clue what CBM was doing messing around with Lundin's 16th as a template hole. Leven's 14th is much the superior hole and the best hole of the would be original 18. My brain needs seeing to for not remembering this hole.
Leven is proper links golf.
Ciao
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I agree with most of that, Sean. Though I think 14 may be the best hole on the course, rather than 18. That green site! I can't work out why I didn't rate Leven higher. Perhaps I hadn't seen it in such sporty condition. Proof that how a course plays beats how it looks hands down.
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Mark and Sean,
Leven has become my go-to example of what “great links conditoning” means.
Yes, the fairways could have been in a bit better condition, but the absolute consideration is whether the course is bouncy and the fairways and greens of similar pace.
The links experience depends on the latter, the former is just nice to have — and at many courses the pursuit of those surfaces lessens the firmness factor.
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Mark and Sean,
Leven has become my go-to example of what “great links conditoning” means.
Yes, the fairways could have been in a bit better condition, but the absolute consideration is whether the course is bouncy and the fairways and greens of similar pace.
The links experience depends on the latter, the former is just nice to have — and at many courses the pursuit of those surfaces lessens the firmness factor.
Scott
No, I don't think Leven was close to being in good nick, although I wouldn't mind at all if fairways in general were not cut quite so close as has seemingly become the norm. The greens were sluggish and the fairways very hairy and patchy with dead spots. On the flip side, the rough was in good order. You could lose a ball or have a good lie in about equal measure. And yes, the greens and fairways were roughly on the same keel regards firmness. I think the issue for me is when a course charges £80 normal fee, the conditioning has to be better than Leven gave us. If the green fee was £40ish or so quid as a normal charge than I have much less of a problem.
Mark...for sure 14 is a better hole than 18...hence All-Scotland candidate.
Ciao
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Leven 14. Simply awesome.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47952491882_467edd5de9_c.jpg)
Cheers,
F.
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SEan,
"the greens were sluggish"? Really? I didn't think they were appreciably lower than Lundin or the New course. And whilst the fairways were scruffy I didn't get a bad lie. There were dead spots (which weren't at St Andrews, Lundin or Elie but I think that reflected budgets available for maintenance. The course was noticeably firmer than the others we played, which was a bonus
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SEan,
"the greens were sluggish"? Really? I didn't think they were appreciably lower than Lundin or the New course. And whilst the fairways were scruffy I didn't get a bad lie. There were dead spots (which weren't at St Andrews, Lundin or Elie but I think that reflected budgets available for maintenance. The course was noticeably firmer than the others we played, which was a bonus
Well, I guess we disagree. I would be fine with Leven's conditioning if it was a 30 quid course. That said, I suspect the fairways are still suffering from last summer's drought, hence their shabby state. However, I wouldn't mind if fairways were cut a bit higher. Who knows, maybe there wouldn't have been so much wide spread issues if this was the case.
Wasn't it clear The Links Trust could spend their way thru weather issues? Man, the greens were slow, but the course was in very good nick.
Ciao
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SEan,
"the greens were sluggish"? Really? I didn't think they were appreciably lower than Lundin or the New course. And whilst the fairways were scruffy I didn't get a bad lie. There were dead spots (which weren't at St Andrews, Lundin or Elie but I think that reflected budgets available for maintenance. The course was noticeably firmer than the others we played, which was a bonus
Well, I guess we disagree. I would be fine with Leven's conditioning if it was a 30 quid course. That said, I suspect the fairways are still suffering from last summer's drought, hence their shabby state. However, I wouldn't mind if fairways were cut a bit higher. Who knows, maybe there wouldn't have been so much wide spread issues if this was the case.
Wasn't it clear The Links Trust could spend their way thru weather issues? Man, the greens were slow, but the course was in very good nick.
Ciao
I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here, Sean, the Links Trust has no say over Elie bur the greens were no quicker than Leven. The fairways were scruffy at Leven bit did you get a lie that spoiled your next shot? You're the last person I'd expect to be over influeuenced by the appearance of the course but I can't he[size=78%]lp thinking that's what has happened here.[/size]
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Yes, I did have down lies that weren't in divots. The issue comes down to Leven wasn't in decent nick. We can get wishy washy about it, but that's the truth.
Ciao
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I suspect Sean just copped a few dud lies that we didn’t get, Mark. There’s no other logical explanation for the differing takeaways re the condition.
I got pretty decent lies in the fairways the whole way around and thought the greens ran at a similar clip to Elie and Lundin. Certainly the putts from the RHS on 9, past the hole on 18 and back to the pin from long on 7 were all speedy.
I think we all have played enough links to judge condition on more than what it looks like, so I assume Sean just got a rougher go of the conditions than us.
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It does illustrate how clubs can never really “win” re conditioning that three blokes who all like similar stuff and are all reasonably experienced with links golf can be so split on their appraisal of a course’s presentation.
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I suspect Sean just copped a few dud lies that we didn’t get, Mark. There’s no other logical explanation for the differing takeaways re the condition.
I got pretty decent lies in the fairways the whole way around and thought the greens ran at a similar clip to Elie and Lundin. Certainly the putts from the RHS on 9, past the hole on 18 and back to the pin from long on 7 were all speedy.
I think we all have played enough links to judge condition on more than what it looks like, so I assume Sean just got a rougher go of the conditions than us.
Scott
I did get a few bad lies, but that is my fault as I didn't realize the course was STILL on preferred lies. Anytime a course is on PL in late May there is an issue, but its the smart thing to do. If I would have known PL was play I would have moved balls to the rough if within 5-7 yards....I do it at Burnham all the time. There is zero point in banging up suffering fairways for a friendly game. I wish this pratice was commonplace because the day is coming when a significant percentage of links will be on winter mats.
For me, paying a twilight rate of £50 for fairways which a £25 course can provide doesn't represent a course in good nick. We all take things as we see them. I played a course today that was PL. Courses really are suffering for the last year's drought.
Ciao
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Leven definitely had some fairway conditioning problems a week and a half ago. Not all fairways, but a few were pretty rough.
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For me, paying a twilight rate of £50 for fairways which a £25 course can provide doesn't represent a course in good nick. We all take things as we see them. I played a course today that was PL. Courses really are suffering for the last year's drought.
Ciao
Sean,
is it fair to say that your main beef is that they were over charging for the conditions on offer? If the greenfee had been £25 then you would have felt the course offered value for money?
I think there are far too many courses asking over the odds these past ten years.
Jon
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For me, paying a twilight rate of £50 for fairways which a £25 course can provide doesn't represent a course in good nick. We all take things as we see them. I played a course today that was PL. Courses really are suffering for the last year's drought.
Ciao
Sean,
is it fair to say that your main beef is that they were over charging for the conditions on offer? If the greenfee had been £25 then you would have felt the course offered value for money?
I think there are far too many courses asking over the odds these past ten years.
Jon
For sure. Charge £25 and I am not overly fussed. To think that if we teed off an hour two prior to when we did the fee was £80. That is stiff fee if the course is in good nick. Fife is a high rent district.
Ciao