Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tom_Doak on May 24, 2003, 05:44:22 PM

Title: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom_Doak on May 24, 2003, 05:44:22 PM
I had never played this course before today, although I walked it a couple of times when I first came to northern Michigan.

It was a wonderful, pleasant round of golf.  It's exactly the kind of course golf needs more of, but that no one is building.

Goes with the flow of the land.  Very simple bunkering which must cost pennies to maintain.  Great greens, and great greens surrounds for chipping.  Simple to build, simple to maintain.

I'm not trying to be too harsh on modern architects here.  Out of 15 past clients I think maybe only one or two of them would have wanted something this simple.  But seeing Belvedere makes me think everyone is trying too hard.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Joe Hancock on May 24, 2003, 06:00:12 PM
Thanks Tom...

I have been told to go there and play by several northern superintendants in the know. It will have to be on my itinerary this summer. I'll be at Kingsley on Wednesday, but after meetings and golf there I won't have time to do anything else.

Lookiing forward to Belvedere,

Joe
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Forrest Richardson on May 24, 2003, 06:07:02 PM
Tom,

I agree, although have no first hand knowledge of Belvedere GC. So...problem identified...and solution. Now, how do you propose we get there?
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Mark_Fine on May 24, 2003, 07:13:45 PM
Tom,
Please define "simple" bunkering.  Were there just a few bunkers with no wild edges or flashed sand?  
Mark
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: RJ_Daley on May 24, 2003, 07:33:37 PM
Sounds elementary my dear Watson... ;D 8) :P
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom_Doak on May 24, 2003, 08:34:17 PM
Actually, Willie Watson's original bunkers probably had a bit of bank to them, but what's left now could be described as "tilted saucers," with no grass lip above them.  It's not the most beautiful look ... I'm sure lots of people here could build more beautiful bunkers ... but they had the desired effect and they couldn't be simpler to maintain.

In fact the bunkering is the main reason I said above that no one today is building anything like this ... everyone wants to show how creative they are.  Most clients want their members or their customers to stand on the tee and say "Wow!"  So everyone for the last twenty years in northern Michigan has spent more money to impress us, and most of those impressive things have failed to pay for themselves.

Belvedere is basically an old farm.  No wow factor, except in the detailing around the greens which is exceptional.

It was just a timely reminder about what golf really is.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Mike_Cirba on May 24, 2003, 08:42:18 PM
Tom;

Are Watson's bunkers at Belvedere anything like the bunkers at Olympic Lake?  

They certainly aren't particularly artistic or fussy, yet they are unique and effective in their own way.  
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Yancey_Beamer on May 24, 2003, 08:55:37 PM
Tom,
I played Belvedere some years ago on the same trip that included us playing The Downs. This is a very intelligent course with no frills. In a conversation this week I included it in my list of the best courses I've played in this country.It's a joy.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom_Doak on May 25, 2003, 05:45:21 AM
Mike,

Yes, come to think of it, the bunkers are quite a bit like Olympic's.

I was assuming that their present form was just a matter of the maintenance staff edging and changing the look over time.  Perhaps not, after all.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: T_MacWood on May 25, 2003, 07:20:44 AM
Here are some old images of Belvedere:

(http://www.belvederegolfclub.com/images/oldbel01.jpg)

(http://www.belvederegolfclub.com/images/oldbel02.jpg)

(http://www.belvederegolfclub.com/images/oldbel06.jpg)

(http://www.belvederegolfclub.com/images/oldbel08.jpg)

I suspect the bunkers have changed over time - I wouldn't characterize Watson's bunkers as dull. Certainly not as bold as some, but they were defintiely interesting. From these old pictures it doesn't appear he planted too many traps, relying on the interest of the terrain.

The 3rd photo down looks a little like the plan in Thomas's book (or is it Hunter's book).
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: John_McMillan on May 25, 2003, 09:37:04 AM
Tom Macwood -

Thanks for the pics.  I can try to guess which holes the pics represent.  

The big white building in the top photo is the clubhouse.  To the right and below the clubhouse is the parking lot.  To the right of the parking lot is the pro shop.  The green just to the left of the road is the 9th green, with the 9th hole playing down the road to that green.  Parallel to the 9th hole, but playing in the opposite direction is the 1st hole.  On the right side of the road are the 10th tee and 18th green, though details of either are not really apparent in the photo.

The second photo down looks across the clubhouse from a different angle, with the 1st tee and 9th green, and some of the back nine holes on the other side of the road.  

The third photo down appears to me to be the very elevated first tee.  The first hole plays down the valley, the 9th hole is back along the top of the ridge.

The bottom photo looks like the 16th hole - which is diagrammed in Thomas "Golf Course Architecture in America." The current hole has many fewer bunkers - I think just the two in the central cluster, with those on the right and left having been filled in.  The middle cluster is not a difficult carry off  the tee, with the current critique of the hole being a "bomb it and flip it" hole.  I think the green countours make it more than that, though there is some discussion of adding more fairway bunkers to increase the interest of the tee shot for the better players.

The style of the lost bunkers on the 16'th hole, with their Thomas-like fingers, is nothing like the current bunkering style, which is much plainer.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Hunt on May 26, 2003, 05:33:18 AM
Belvedere is one of my favorite courses in Northern Michigan. I've played it about a dozen times.

It is open to the public and I can't recall if tee times begin at 11am or 1pm. I urge any GCA'ers to put it on their list when in the area.

Speaking of Watson's-Members that know him state Tom Watson finds it to be one of his favorites.

Hunt





Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom_Doak on May 27, 2003, 07:26:06 AM
John:  I think the last picture is of the fourth green, looking down from the clubhouse and first tee, with the par-5 fifth going around the corner to the left.

Those old newspaper photogs tended not to wander too far from the shelter of the clubhouse (or the bar).

There are a lot of bunkers in that photo which aren't there anymore.  The hole is a 230-yard par-3 so I'm not sure why there were so many bunkers back away from the green.  John is right, though ... not many fingers.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: David Wigler on May 27, 2003, 08:55:51 AM
Tom,

Right on about Belvedere.  

It is hosting the Michigan Am this year, after a long absence.  I was very disappointed that a major brain cramp on #13 in the qualifier, cost me a quadruple bogey and a chance to play a tournament round there.  
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: John_McMillan on May 27, 2003, 09:33:25 AM
Tom,

You may be right about the bottom photo being the 4th hole.  I was having a hard time fitting the 15th hole into the photo if it was of the 16th hole.  However, if it IS the 4th hole, the bunkers are very oddly placed - mostly around 150 to 180 yards from the tee on a 230 yard hole.  They'd give the handicap players fits, but not do much else.  The 5th hole doglegs to the left of the 4th hole, which does fit the photo.  However, there are fairway bunkers on the outside of the dogleg on the 5th hole.  That would mean these bunkers are new.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: DarrinS on May 27, 2003, 11:46:04 AM
Tom Doak:

I, too, enjoyed Belvedere for the first time this past weekend.  I missed you by one day, however, as I played Sunday afternoon rather than Saturday.  (Did you play the entire round in that nasty, nasty weather?)

It is truly a great experience.  The course is preparing for the Michigan Amateur so the rough is up, and the course has bite.  The greens are superb (except the 4th, where I was sorry to see numerous bald patches), and of course, you've already mentioned the wonderful bunkering.  Luckily, I only found 1 bunker all day, :) (the monolithic fairway bunker on the short par 5 15th hole.)

We also played Gaylord CC and Little Traverse Bay GC in Harbor Springs this past weekend.  Gaylord CC is an "old-timer" worth a look, though not as nice as Belvedere, IMO.  Little Traverse Bay is your typical "elevated tees, 'wow' vista" country club.  Overall, another enjoyable golf weekend in the "Golf Mecca" :)
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Nick_Ficorelli on May 28, 2003, 05:05:16 AM
After spending the better part of 20 summers in the general area, I would pick Black Forest,Belvedere,Treetops-Smith Signature,and High Pointe as the "can't miss" in Northern Michigan public golf.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: mark chalfant on July 10, 2009, 03:25:59 PM
A nice thread on a Willie Watson course.....     is he fully appreciated
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 10, 2009, 03:33:41 PM
Does he have enough work to be "appreciated" as an architect?  Other than Olympic Club, I don't think he has a "prominent" course out there.  Interlochen in Minny was completely redone by Ross.  From what I understand, he was a golf pro here in Charlevoix in the summers and in California in the winters and occasionally did some courses on the side.

I will say, there does seem to be a lack of information out there on him.  Which I find unfortunate because I would love to figure out more about him.  The word at Belvedere is that the only known photo of him hangs on the wall in their pro shop.  That is what Marty the pro says and I believe him.

I've recently read through two histories of the Belvedere Club that included excerpts about the golf course, its development and management, etc.  Very little is said about WW other than he was the pro at the Chicago Club across round lake from Belvedere and had designed that 18 holes as well (which is now a 9 hole muni that retains nothing of the original design).

I'm going to dig through some old newspaper articles from around the time Belvedere Golf Club was built here at the library in the coming weeks.  I'll post here if I find out more.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom_Doak on July 10, 2009, 08:09:24 PM
Interesting to go back and read my first post.  I think I followed my own advice with what we built at Common Ground.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Jason McNamara on July 11, 2009, 02:32:07 AM
"Simple to build, simple to maintain....  [ S]eeing Belvedere makes me think everyone is trying too hard."

It's interesting that's Tom's take echoes what we've seen in web design the last few years.  That awful mindset that leads to Hey, all the other sites have Flash intros and lots of Javascript geegaws and audio effects and pop-up course guides, so clearly we need that on our site as well.

Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it.
(As much as I like minimalist golf design, I think I like minimalist web design even more.)
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom MacWood on July 11, 2009, 11:39:53 PM
Mark
He is not fully appreciated. Watson designed many more courses than what is generally known. I've identified 45 designs in California, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Colorado, Arizona and New York, including some high profile courses credited to others, like Thousand Island (Raynor), Toledo (Park) and White Bear Yacht (Ross). There is still quite bit of Watson at Interlachen, and he designed Minikahda. He was heavily involved in two of the courses at Olympia Fields. Olympic-Ocean may have been his greatest accomplishment, but unfortunately it fell into the sea.

He is unique in that he was not home-grown professional in Scotland, nor even a good amateur. I'm still trying to figure out how he became a pro, I think his father was involved in clubmaking, and they came over together. To my knowledge he never competed in tournament. His design career stretched from 1898 to 1928, and that covers some pretty dramatic changes.

That is the first I've read of him being associated with the Chicago GC.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on July 11, 2009, 11:53:51 PM
Tom,

I don't think the people at Toledo CC and White Bear YC will agree with your assessment that Willie Watson designed their courses any more than MCC will agree with you that Barker designed theirs.  That is just based on my limited contacts at each club.

Just what evidence do you have that Watson designed those, rather than those credited with the designs?  Some more train schedules?
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Garland Bayley on July 12, 2009, 12:11:46 AM
Tom,

45? Cornish and Whitten give 19 including several 9 holers. Was their work so incomplete?

Tom D,

Your description of the simplicity seems like a description of what many lesser architects are building today and every day. Can you give us some idea, what might make this one special, and deserving praise?
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Steve Lang on July 12, 2009, 12:23:22 AM
 8) ok.. Road trip..  who wants to join ms sheila and I at Belvedere and even Dunmaglas at end of July?  should be good berry picking by then

JC Jones, we have cabin at Blue Lake about 45 minutes south.. expect an email after 25 july..
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom MacWood on July 12, 2009, 12:29:10 AM
Tom,

I don't think the people at Toledo CC and White Bear YC will agree with your assessment that Willie Watson designed their courses any more than MCC will agree with you that Barker designed theirs.  That is just based on my limited contacts at each club.

Just what evidence do you have that Watson designed those, rather than those credited with the designs?  Some more train schedules?

Are channeling TEP?
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Steve Lang on July 12, 2009, 12:35:30 AM
 8) Toledo CC very proud of Willie Park Jr legacy there!
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on July 12, 2009, 01:01:52 AM
TMac,

I haven't spoken to TePaul this week and not at all about this or the MCC threads.

As you know, I was in Toledo last week, and my cousin is a good friend of Don Kotnick (?) the pro there.  I have played there and spoken with Don and some members.  As Steve says, they are very proudof their Park heritage.  So, with my second hand connection there, I wonder what your evidence is to "correct" the historic record there?  I know something about White Bear YC, too and no one mentions Watson.

Its a legitimate question, which deserves an answer other than one of your deflection questions, which only say to me you have no real answer.  You know, if you offered whatever newspaper clip you have (and as you always demand, in its entirety) I would simply be interested in seeing it.

As I told you in private email, I think your digging and finding skills are much more evolved and valuble than your interpretive skills.  It seems to me that your theories always rely on a lot of fantastic coincidences to be true, while I believe that the simplest explanation usually is the most correct.

Plus, IMHO only, I am beginning to think that you have a deep seated agenda to promote lesser know gca's over the famous ones in an almost pathological way.  At least, this newest Willie Watson twist, appears that way to me.  First Barker, now Watson?  As always, I could be wrong and if proven so, will certainly apologize to you publicly.  Who knows....if you claim enough false attributions, eventually you will probably be right on one of them........Yeah, that's harsh, but there is no question that I am just a bit tired of your theories now after numerous MCC posts and private emails asking inane questions like "Are you channeling TePaul?"

I simply would like to see what your evidence is because in this day and age, statements on the net like "Willie Watson designed many courses attributed to other more famous gca's" have some real staying power.  Who knows who might Google that some day, and pick up only that statement, leading future historians on some MacWoodian Goose Chase in the wrong direction?  It raises an interesting question (again) of what level of background info should be required to make such posts on the internet?  Certainly, a newspaper or mainstream media outlet wouldn't publish that kind of thing (or the DM essay) without some serious vetting.

Is it too much to ask that you give us some background info on your opinions?  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 12, 2009, 09:18:41 AM
8) ok.. Road trip..  who wants to join ms sheila and I at Belvedere and even Dunmaglas at end of July?  should be good berry picking by then

JC Jones, we have cabin at Blue Lake about 45 minutes south.. expect an email after 25 july..

Sounds good Steve, I'm up here until Aug 3.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 12, 2009, 09:24:37 AM
Mark
He is not fully appreciated. Watson designed many more courses than what is generally known. I've identified 45 designs in California, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Colorado, Arizona and New York, including some high profile courses credited to others, like Thousand Island (Raynor), Toledo (Park) and White Bear Yacht (Ross). There is still quite bit of Watson at Interlachen, and he designed Minikahda. He was heavily involved in two of the courses at Olympia Fields. Olympic-Ocean may have been his greatest accomplishment, but unfortunately it fell into the sea.

He is unique in that he was not home-grown professional in Scotland, nor even a good amateur. I'm still trying to figure out how he became a pro, I think his father was involved in clubmaking, and they came over together. To my knowledge he never competed in tournament. His design career stretched from 1898 to 1928, and that covers some pretty dramatic changes.

That is the first I've read of him being associated with the Chicago GC.

The Chicago Club he was associated with is the Chicago Club in Charlevoix, MI (a summer neighborhood association similar to the Belvedere Club).

Where are you finding this good information on Willie Watson?  I'd love to try and piece together a bio of this guy as I think he has enough (prominent) work out there to have a legitimate biography.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom MacWood on July 12, 2009, 10:15:40 AM
JC
I've found good info in American Golfer, Golf Illustrated, Chicago Tribune and The Scotsman, but the best sources have been the LA Times and The Golfer magazine, which was a magazine based in Chicago.

I'll be posting some images once I figure out how to do it.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Bart Bradley on July 12, 2009, 11:05:13 AM
I am posting these for Tom MacWood....

Tom, send me an IM if you want me to call you and run you through the process of posting pictures...it is really not that hard  ;D.

(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/mbbradley/white20bear20y.jpg)


(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff197/mbbradley/watson20advert.jpg)

He will have to make his own comments.

Bart
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom MacWood on July 12, 2009, 11:27:01 AM
Both the article and the advertisement come from The Golfer Magazine. The advert was May 1913 and the article May 1925.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Mike_Cirba on July 12, 2009, 11:50:10 AM
Tom,

I'm very confused.   Does this mean that Wilie Watson laid out White Bear "on the ground" and was merely the construction supervisor for the project?  ;)

Who knew he was also the construction supervisor at Interlachen?  

Who actually designed it?  ;)

Seriously, I really do appreciate your research and new findings.   I don't think you truly believe in the torturing of the English language any more than I do.  

Thanks.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on July 12, 2009, 11:52:03 AM
Tom,

Well that is interesting.

Here is what the Ross Society has to say about Ross and Watson in MSP....

From the WBYC section:

We have no evidence that Mr. Ross visited the site of the White Bear Yacht Club in 1912 or 1915 when he designed first the front nine (1912) and later the back nine (1915). It is thought that this course was designed from topographical maps that were submitted to Mr. Ross. The drawings for the course were lost in a fire in 1938, leaving scant written evidence of the work of the Master.

The course is all the evidence that one would need to confirm that White Bear is a work of Donald Ross.

And from the Minikahda  section:

In 1898, William Watson left Scotland to join with Robert Foulis in building nine holes at the Minikahda Country Club in Minneapolis. The new nine complimented nine that had been built by Robert Taylor and C.T. Jaffray, two amateur Architects. .....The combination must have been reasonably successful as the USGA chose Minkahda Country Club to be the site of the 1916 US Open. Chick Evans won the 1916 with great aplomb. Carrying only seven wooden-shafted clubs Evans soared to a 2 under par total of 286 to take the crown.

Members of the Club must have been worried that their course was obsolete in the face of the power and finesse of the Championship players of the day. After all, Evans set a record for the lowest score in the Open, a score that they did not know would remain a record for 20 years and Evans, the great ball-striker, was the worst putter of his day.

The members called in Donald Ross who redesigned the Minikahda Club in 1917.




I know that Ross also did Northland as a redo of an existing course.  Is it quite possible that Watson did the original layout work and that Ross blew it up and started nearly over, given the dates from the Ross Society?  I will say that in the case of WBYC, even Ross guys say there is no evidence he was there, but Brad Klein did confirm that Ross made it to Northland. It would seem he might stop by.

I know I could look this up, but what years if you know, were the prime of Watson's career?

Mike C,

No need to carry that over here!  While I agree that the term layout seems to have been used many different ways to describe design, too, lets try to keep this one civil, my earlier comments to Tom Mac notwithstanding.  He is good at digging these things up. 
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Mike_Cirba on July 12, 2009, 11:56:50 AM
Jeff,

Agreed.   I very much appreciate Tom MacWood's research, as well.  ;D
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on July 12, 2009, 11:58:08 AM
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:

"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "

What dates did Watson and Park work?  Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?

Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting.  And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Garland Bayley on July 12, 2009, 12:10:11 PM
Interesting. Advertisements as evidence. With that standard we would all be smoking for the health benefits.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom MacWood on July 12, 2009, 02:28:37 PM
The current 18 at Toledo was built in 1911. Willie Park, Jr moved permanently to the US in 1916 (after a couple visits in the mid-90s). When I pointed this out to the club they had little interest. I knew it wasn't Park in 1911, but Watson was not someone I suspected. Willie Park did redesign the course later, and listed it, my guess that was around 1919 around the time he built Sylvania.  

Ross did not include White Bear Yacht as a course he designed or redesigned on his master list of 1930. White Bear YC had no direct evidence Ross was involved. The Tufts Archives had nothing on White Bear either, no articles and no plans. Watson was the preeminent man in Minnesota at the time, which is why I suspected it was more likely he was responsible for the course and mentioned it a few times in the past (prior to finding the article)

Watson was very active in the 1910s and 1920s, and fairly active in the 1900s. A couple of interesting tidbits from the LA Times...by the way I did not include either Lakeside or Riviera in the 45 courses:

"George Eastman, LA McCray and Harry Facuett have joined with JB Irsfield, FK Callaway, RG Bury, GC Greenwood and Charles Christie in the directorship of the newly organized Lakeside Golf Club which recently purchased 125 acres of beautiful rolling land including 500 feet of lake frontage on Toluca Lake, from Hoffron-McCray-St.John subdividers for a consideration of $400,000. The organization's plan of the new club is unique in that its membership will consist of 650 members, 600 of which will be participating members and will own and control the club's property and assets. The remaining fifty will be life members. It is said that the work is to start immediately and $150,000 is to be expended for laying out the course. Another $100,000 will be spent in building a modern clubhouse near Toluca Lake which will have all modern conveniences including boat landings and bathing facilities. William Watson, golf course architect, who constructed Anandale, Flintridge and Hillcrest, has started preliminary work on laying out the course." (4/27/1924)

"The course [Riviera] has been ably studied by William Watson, the well-known and conservative golf architect, who has perhaps laid out more golf courses than any other man in the West. In order to overlook no bets, the club has engaged 'Billy' Bell, the rising young golf architect who studied under Watson, to make an independent layout so that every possibility would be considered. And then as though this was not making assurance doubly sure, the club has enlisted the interest of George C. Thomas Jr., to supervise the entire show and when Mr. Thomas supervises anything, he only puts in twenty-six hours a day at it....Mr. Thomas has walked over the land several times, made two or three maps of it, studied its possibilities, and announced that he wouldn't have anything to with it if he didn't think it could be made different and better than anything he had ever seen." (1/24/1926)
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 12, 2009, 02:35:20 PM
This is fascinating.  My understanding is that he also did Interlachen, which was subsequently completely re-done by Ross.

Should we move all of these posts to a Willie Watson thread?
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom MacWood on July 12, 2009, 03:11:09 PM

As I told you in private email, I think your digging and finding skills are much more evolved and valuble than your interpretive skills.  It seems to me that your theories always rely on a lot of fantastic coincidences to be true, while I believe that the simplest explanation usually is the most correct.


Jeff
I think my interpretive skills are pretty good too. Your ability to interpret is directly related to your overall knowledge and the amount of information you have available and I have a hell of lot information. The people complaining don't have the same information I have.

We've only scratched the surface of documenting golf architecture history, and because of that there are plenty of opportunities for new discoveries, and often those discoveries don't sit well with people. In the past when I've claimed Willie Campbell laid out Myopia or Flynn did not design Heartwellville or Crump killed himself or Watson is responsible for White Bear or Old Tom Morris's design accomplishments are exaggerated or Barker was one of the premier architects or some other idea that goes against our general understanding, thats often when you would hear the complaints he is good at research, but not interpreting it. I think record shows my research and interpretations are mostly on the mark, not always, but most of the time.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on July 12, 2009, 03:32:37 PM
Tom,

If nothing else, these articles show that many important clubs ended up consulting many different people!  Apparently, not many of them really trusted the then young field of gca.  Riv had Watson, Bell and Thomas according to that writer?  That is not unlike the MCC story, where different people called in Barker, Whigham, and their own committee.

I am not sure what any of that means, but one of the tenants of the MCC discussion is to understand it in context of the times.  I am not sure any of us do that very well.

BTW, it would appear to me that in this case, laid out meant to design, no?
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 12, 2009, 05:14:19 PM
I too am curious as to what "laid out" means.  If it means design, then what purpose does Ross or Thomas or others serve when they come in after the design.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Yancey_Beamer on July 12, 2009, 10:37:28 PM
Belvedere was for me a most enjoyable Sunday afternoon.Simplicity and FUN.A almost forgotton element of design.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Chris_Blakely on July 13, 2009, 10:19:14 AM
I have played both of Watson's Michigan courses Belvedere GC and Charlevoix GC and enjoyed both of them.  As I stated on a previous thread about White Bear Yacht Club, the course looked a lot different than any of the other Ross courses I have played.

Chris
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Chris_Blakely on July 13, 2009, 02:34:00 PM
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:

"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "

What dates did Watson and Park work?  Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?

Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting.  And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.

Toledo CC is so proud of their Willie Park Jr. Course design that they include him with Arthur Hills on their website and have a link to Art Hills site!!!! ::)

I played a Willie Park Jr. course in Ohio that celebrated their Willie Park Jr. heritage in a different way - they displayed Park's orginal desgin drawings, layout, and individual hole plans.

Chris
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 13, 2009, 02:40:44 PM
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:

"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "

What dates did Watson and Park work?  Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?

Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting.  And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.

Toledo CC is so proud of their Willie Park Jr. Course design that they include him with Arthur Hills on their website and have a link to Art Hills site!!!! ::)

I played a Willie Park Jr. course in Ohio that celebrated their Willie Park Jr. heritage in a different way - they displayed Park's orginal desgin drawings, layout, and individual hole plans.

Chris


The real question is, how close is the current version of the course to the original design?
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Chris_Blakely on July 13, 2009, 03:04:36 PM
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:

"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "

What dates did Watson and Park work?  Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?

Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting.  And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.

Toledo CC is so proud of their Willie Park Jr. Course design that they include him with Arthur Hills on their website and have a link to Art Hills site!!!! ::)

I played a Willie Park Jr. course in Ohio that celebrated their Willie Park Jr. heritage in a different way - they displayed Park's orginal desgin drawings, layout, and individual hole plans.

Chris


The real question is, how close is the current version of the course to the original design?

My point was that Toledo CC must not be that proud of Park as he is co-listed on the webpage.  From what I have seen, there are not a lot of Art Hills elements at Toledo CC.  I have no idea if it is or is not close to the original design.  However, if I had a classic course built when TCC was, I would not be championing Art Hills invovlement if it was minimal.

Chris
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 13, 2009, 03:05:51 PM
Chris,

Maybe it was part of the (reduced) fee.  Also, Art Hills is a big name in these parts and may be more of a draw than Park!!
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Chris_Blakely on July 13, 2009, 03:11:22 PM
JC Jones,

I am well aware that Mr. Hills is very big in these parts and for the record, I am not anti-Art Hills courses (I even know where his unique office is).  You may be right on how the contract was constructed.  But I do believe this proves that are not as proud as they may come across about their Park course.

Chris
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 13, 2009, 03:16:32 PM
JC Jones,

I am well aware that Mr. Hills is very big in these parts and for the record, I am not anti-Art Hills courses (I even know where his unique office is).  You may be right on how the contract was constructed.  But I do believe this proves that are not as proud as they may come across about their Park course.

Chris


I think you are right about their pride in their heritage.  Not anti-Art Hills?  You must like fairway bunkers in typical landing zones that spread 75% across the fairway!! ;)
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Chris_Blakely on July 13, 2009, 03:25:18 PM
JC Jones,

I am well aware that Mr. Hills is very big in these parts and for the record, I am not anti-Art Hills courses (I even know where his unique office is).  You may be right on how the contract was constructed.  But I do believe this proves that are not as proud as they may come across about their Park course.

Chris



I think you are right about their pride in their heritage.  Not anti-Art Hills?  You must like fairway bunkers in typical landing zones that spread 75% across the fairway!! ;)

He has some less than stellar courses (IMO) these are ones that are older and appear to have had less involvement of some of his associates.  I like Shepherd's Hollow, Fieldstone, Red Hawk  (MI heard good things about, but not played), Red Hawk (OH) and the Eagles Ridge GC in Kentucky to name a few.  He has some doozies out there as well and have some different bunkering.

There is a country club in my area that was one of the first courses that he designed that I wonder how they have stayed private???  I get invites to play it occasionally and kindly decline.

Chris
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Ron Farris on July 19, 2009, 10:06:40 AM
I think this was about Belvedere GC.  I had the luxury of playing this course with my wife in the early 90"s,  I would agree with Tom Doak that this is the type of course that the world needs more of.  I especially like the pro shop and its separation from the clubhouse.  They told us that there were a few balls on the other side of the clubhouse that we could hit to warm up.  There was no cart path to get to the balls.  We were playing in October and I think there may have been only 4 other people on the course.  I still proudly wear my wool sweater which I purchased in the quaint pro shop, although it is a little tight in the belly region.  I will try to post some of the pictures from my trip when I return home.

Again, I continue to reflect on Belvedere as the way golf was meant to be.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Chris DeNigris on July 19, 2009, 10:45:35 AM
Playing Belvedere is like stepping back in time. Of course the Hickory tourney being played that day might have contributed some..

Nothing really overwhelms you but the subtelties are really great. The par 3s are terrific. Each very different with great bunkering and challenging green contours.

The greens in general are very good, a lot of false fronts and sides- a lot of fun to putt. Number 16 has to be one of the more amazing green complexes I've run across- a very wicked ending to what looks to be a benign short 4 from the tee box.

Green fee at Belvedere- $66
Room fee for 4 hours of "sleep" at the Charlevoix Motel- $99
Getting to meet and play Belvedere with Bogey on the morning of the Kingsley trip- Priceless.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: RSLivingston_III on July 19, 2009, 12:52:02 PM
I am a little confused. Tom, I thought you helped Belvedere get their 1938 USGS
(http://www.hickorygolf.com/dl/Belvedere1938.jpg)
and that it had been figured out that Bell had come in to do the bunkering.
That the bunkering that exists was a 1960's (?) redo.
It should also be noted that #!, 11, and 16 are covered (Hole drawings) in Thomas' book "Golf Architecture in America"
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 19, 2009, 01:39:38 PM
Ralph,

Where did you learn that Bell had done the bunkering?  I've recently read the two club histories (one written in 1969 and another in 1990) and neither of them mention anyone other than Watson being involved in the design of the course and a chicagoan named Miller to "clear the land under the direction of Watson."
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom MacWood on July 19, 2009, 01:45:03 PM
There was speculation that Bell was involved based on the looks of the bunkers, but I've never seen any evidence Bell came to Michigan. Its not surprising Watson and Bell's bunkers would look similar since Bell was a protege of Watson's.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 19, 2009, 01:48:37 PM
There was speculation that Bell was involved based on the looks of the bunkers, but I've never seen any evidence Bell came to Michigan. Its not surprising Watson and Bell's bunkers would look similar since Bell was a protege of Waton's.

Watson was also involved at Riviera where Bell gets credit for the bunkers, correct?
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: RSLivingston_III on July 19, 2009, 02:04:15 PM
This has all been discussed before, maybe a couple of years ago. Tommy N. dug up some info. If I knew how to do searches here might be able to find it.
But in any case, after seeing that 1938USGS the bunkering that is there from the renovation is a disaster.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom MacWood on July 19, 2009, 02:35:58 PM
Watson was consulted at Riviera. Bell got his start at Annandale in 1919 working with Watson. I do remember the discussion about Bell working at Belvedere, but I don't recall any direct evidence. There are two Watson drawings of Belvedere in 'Golf Architecture in America' - the 11th and 16th holes - and the bunkering on those plans are identical to the aerial, which leads me to believe it is 100% Watson.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: RSLivingston_III on July 19, 2009, 02:39:49 PM
The 1st is also in there. Pg.166
The aerial doesn't show the fairway bunker in the drawing. Either removed or never installed.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 19, 2009, 02:43:31 PM
This has all been discussed before, maybe a couple of years ago. Tommy N. dug up some info. If I knew how to do searches here might be able to find it.
But in any case, after seeing that 1938USGS the bunkering that is there from the renovation is a disaster.

I agree.  The bunkering and the number of trees present on the course vs the 1938 aerial are disappointing.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: RSLivingston_III on July 19, 2009, 02:51:38 PM
I think I find what has happened to the 8th and 16th the most disappointing. Makes you want to sneak out there some night and do some digging.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: ed_getka on July 19, 2009, 07:38:12 PM

Should we move all of these posts to a Willie Watson thread?

MOST DEFINITELY!!!!!
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on July 19, 2009, 07:44:06 PM
I think I find what has happened to the 8th and 16th the most disappointing. Makes you want to sneak out there some night and do some digging.

I was told that the bunkers short right of the green on 16 are being put back next season.  I'd like to see the bunker on 6 that is between 6 fairway and 2 green restored to its original form and all of those trees removed.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: BCowan on August 19, 2016, 08:52:13 PM
I had never played this course before today, although I walked it a couple of times when I first came to northern Michigan.

It was a wonderful, pleasant round of golf.  It's exactly the kind of course golf needs more of, but that no one is building.

Goes with the flow of the land.  Very simple bunkering which must cost pennies to maintain.  Great greens, and great greens surrounds for chipping.  Simple to build, simple to maintain.

I'm not trying to be too harsh on modern architects here.  Out of 15 past clients I think maybe only one or two of them would have wanted something this simple.  But seeing Belvedere makes me think everyone is trying too hard.

   I had the pleasure of playing Belvedere for the first time this year (finally) and it exceeded my expectations.  It was rather fun to hit 4iron bumps around the greens.  As Tom said in this old thread that has great info throughout it, Great green surrounds for chipping was the highlight of the course IMO.  Curious to learn about the Hepner long term reno there that has been going on I think.  7-9 is a great stretch of holes.  The simplicity and elegance of the place is perfect and should be a model for more courses. 
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on August 19, 2016, 10:24:08 PM
Where belvedere really shines is in the movement of land into and around the green complexes. Holes like 3, 6, 7, 11, 16, and 17 utalize the topography and slope beautifully around their greens. Enough so, that between those 6 green only 2 bunkers sit as protection. Looking at the old aerial in the clubhouse, I really would love to see the course go through a bunker restoration to match.


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2UpAYKHTHpgPqZtdqwvvkw1VhysaOmM0aMGnkY0JWc_gQguzmQOAFyqc81xxbRpchPQx1n3V1_5Qv4cygaTXC3dLvNnT7CEmXTvGWkwDrHFea2iz5iUw1bdieC-dwKsqOZLzEh6ujxqlXRlfvmJTLJ4w5OhMsHW3yQR-GTHTrStNgRf2ayuchoR7GfwUcl5rnCFqqaYFNpJ0qjJwzQCscLr4K1k7GAacXcBWvD7jjhVEZVsOubHO5bx_kXgs-ajizg93eB19PoFcqfQNlbjToWWV39EN7P6ajyB7uKJf1FZiGarLoNk3eGRwfEX5Lf1ku6YV9k2ZqtmhPGaIsOvvyFjd5BGgcKSH58GVjgMKj_hkGVz9YVmXkN12iCgLmOnjGaMne3EcqlCoiJqZX8TBSgq7N4ww0KUVqG6W9--8AY4284Tp3eKcPpkxl6SNf8mDgyMiRtfVv8z6U7ymx3syHdHF-IQhRxP-CAetizqoepVHOde2beuojwXDPH4PKuCoR2Ag4FL1cKBdwshszZYLp0LVICj-0MZknxGvvSp4F9Jm1jJnmhWv-KVd9luvtzZWLCUa_HTcawyNSpsAk24ey6d808JGSfM=w1172-h659-no)
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom_Doak on August 19, 2016, 10:37:42 PM
I saw Bruce Hepner a couple of weeks ago and he mentioned that Belvedere was getting ready to restore some of the old bunkering.  [FYI, though my company consulted at the club for a number of years, Bruce has always done the consulting work there.]

As is mentioned above, the bunkering from Watson's original design was very different.  Some of the positions are downright weird by any modern theory about where bunkers should be placed, with lots of bunkers well short of the greens on some holes.  [For example, see the par-3 4th in the picture above, playing south just to the left of #1.]  It will be interesting to see how it's received if they DO put the bunkers back where they were.


The point of my original post, though, was admiring the simplicity of the bunkers and the focus on the routing and greens detailing.  The membership today is apparently a little more willing to spend money than the previous generation, but a lot of that work will be peripheral to the quality of the golf.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on August 19, 2016, 10:49:07 PM
Tom,


At nearly 230 yards today, I wondered if initially the 4th played more like a 3.5 par with most of the members unable to hit the green in 1 stroke. If that was the case I'd imagine the original bunkering on the 4th made for a wonderful short hole. The bunkering on the 3rd is the one that fools me the most. I can't imagine how many of those bunkers short of the green ever came into play.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom_Doak on August 20, 2016, 09:57:30 AM
Tom,


At nearly 230 yards today, I wondered if initially the 4th played more like a 3.5 par with most of the members unable to hit the green in 1 stroke. If that was the case I'd imagine the original bunkering on the 4th made for a wonderful short hole.


Ben:


I'm sure that's the case.  However, not many architects today would dare leave the members a 50-yard bunker shot for their second if they hit a bad tee shot on a 230-yard par-3.  They'd complain enough just having a 230-yard par-3 at all !
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Russ Arbuthnot on August 22, 2016, 06:15:36 PM
Where belvedere really shines is in the movement of land into and around the green complexes. Holes like 3, 6, 7, 11, 16, and 17 utalize the topography and slope beautifully around their greens. Enough so, that between those 6 green only 2 bunkers sit as protection. Looking at the old aerial in the clubhouse, I really would love to see the course go through a bunker restoration to match.


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2UpAYKHTHpgPqZtdqwvvkw1VhysaOmM0aMGnkY0JWc_gQguzmQOAFyqc81xxbRpchPQx1n3V1_5Qv4cygaTXC3dLvNnT7CEmXTvGWkwDrHFea2iz5iUw1bdieC-dwKsqOZLzEh6ujxqlXRlfvmJTLJ4w5OhMsHW3yQR-GTHTrStNgRf2ayuchoR7GfwUcl5rnCFqqaYFNpJ0qjJwzQCscLr4K1k7GAacXcBWvD7jjhVEZVsOubHO5bx_kXgs-ajizg93eB19PoFcqfQNlbjToWWV39EN7P6ajyB7uKJf1FZiGarLoNk3eGRwfEX5Lf1ku6YV9k2ZqtmhPGaIsOvvyFjd5BGgcKSH58GVjgMKj_hkGVz9YVmXkN12iCgLmOnjGaMne3EcqlCoiJqZX8TBSgq7N4ww0KUVqG6W9--8AY4284Tp3eKcPpkxl6SNf8mDgyMiRtfVv8z6U7ymx3syHdHF-IQhRxP-CAetizqoepVHOde2beuojwXDPH4PKuCoR2Ag4FL1cKBdwshszZYLp0LVICj-0MZknxGvvSp4F9Jm1jJnmhWv-KVd9luvtzZWLCUa_HTcawyNSpsAk24ey6d808JGSfM=w1172-h659-no)
Yes!


I have that photo in my office. Apparently, the lack of a lot of the bunkers is due to pace of play concerns. Weird or not, I think they would take this course [back] to new heights. Regarding bunkering on #4, I posted this several years ago (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60277.msg1426368.html#msg1426368).


I played there earlier this summer, and could see some of the differences from just two years ago. Bunker on 15 is better now.


Keep up the good work!



Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom_Doak on August 22, 2016, 11:15:43 PM
The most interesting bunkers to me are the ones to the right of #16 green.  Apparently, from that aerial, the slope to the right of the green was mowed as fairway down to the bottom, and the bunkers were right there at the bottom.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on August 23, 2016, 06:30:11 AM
One of the more interesting things I've always found about the course in that 1938 aerial is the few holes that aren't bunkered.  5 and 14 are the 2 holes with the least interesting land on the entire course (along with 2 but it does have the giant dogleg bunker of 6 behind the green) and when looking at the aerial, those holes are without bunkers. 
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Joe Hancock on August 23, 2016, 11:32:38 AM
One of the more interesting things I've always found about the course in that 1938 aerial is the few holes that aren't bunkered.  5 and 14 are the 2 holes with the least interesting land on the entire course (along with 2 but it does have the giant dogleg bunker of 6 behind the green) and when looking at the aerial, those holes are without bunkers.


Those holes are in the low lands and drainage may have dictated the bunkering decision.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on August 23, 2016, 02:01:06 PM
One of the more interesting things I've always found about the course in that 1938 aerial is the few holes that aren't bunkered.  5 and 14 are the 2 holes with the least interesting land on the entire course (along with 2 but it does have the giant dogleg bunker of 6 behind the green) and when looking at the aerial, those holes are without bunkers.


Those holes are in the low lands and drainage may have dictated the bunkering decision.

You certainly know more than I.  The only counter I would have to that is 12 green and 10 green having bunkers and they are relatively same level as 13, same the bunkers on 6 relative to 5. 
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Joe Hancock on August 23, 2016, 02:25:24 PM
One of the more interesting things I've always found about the course in that 1938 aerial is the few holes that aren't bunkered.  5 and 14 are the 2 holes with the least interesting land on the entire course (along with 2 but it does have the giant dogleg bunker of 6 behind the green) and when looking at the aerial, those holes are without bunkers.


Those holes are in the low lands and drainage may have dictated the bunkering decision.

You certainly know more than I.  The only counter I would have to that is 12 green and 10 green having bunkers and they are relatively same level as 13, same the bunkers on 6 relative to 5.


Naw, I don't know more, I just openly guess more.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Richard Hetzel on August 24, 2016, 10:40:28 AM
I thought I would post a few pics from my round (several years ago) at Belvedere GC. Great walking golf course, IMO. Great atmosphere, pure golf, unpretentious, great summer weather. Not sure what else one could ask for.


(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/nashcarr/DSCF2087_zpsyurdb9i4.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/nashcarr/media/DSCF2087_zpsyurdb9i4.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/nashcarr/DSCF2095_zpsc9jquksq.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/nashcarr/media/DSCF2095_zpsc9jquksq.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/nashcarr/DSCF2101_zpsjx5mwzmk.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/nashcarr/media/DSCF2101_zpsjx5mwzmk.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/nashcarr/DSCF2120_zpsp9khtjb2.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/nashcarr/media/DSCF2120_zpsp9khtjb2.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/nashcarr/DSCF2137_zps1rfn1xby.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/nashcarr/media/DSCF2137_zps1rfn1xby.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/nashcarr/DSCF2141_zpscebey9xl.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/nashcarr/media/DSCF2141_zpscebey9xl.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/nashcarr/DSCF2157_zpsvzujn3ks.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/nashcarr/media/DSCF2157_zpsvzujn3ks.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/nashcarr/DSCF2165_zpsue11lkfk.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/nashcarr/media/DSCF2165_zpsue11lkfk.jpg.html)
(http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af43/nashcarr/DSCF2167_zpsp1fphokl.jpg) (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/nashcarr/media/DSCF2167_zpsp1fphokl.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Tom Hooker on June 22, 2017, 10:33:51 PM
Just had the opportunity to play the newly "modified" Belvedere, unfortunately without pictures. I say "modified" rather than "restored" only because I suspect there will be many who barely notice the fantastic Willie Watson restoration work that took place this last Fall and Winter.


Most notably here, the bunker fronting the left of the long par 3 4th green was removed, and the original cross bunker ~120 yards from the tee was indeed rebuilt. Although it isn't in play for low handicappers, both my playing partner and I thought it served a useful visual purpose, as it creates the impression that the hole is shorter than it is.


In addition to some fantastic bunker removals and restorations (esp. left of 16 fairway), most of the greens were expanded to include some extremely interesting swales and humps that had been minimized by mowing practices over the years. Especially notable to me were 2, 6, 9, 11, 17, and 18. The greens weren't running very fast this week, and I wonder whether they'll be able to run them at their old speeds with the new expansions.


Since I know it's a favorite here, would love to hear others' thoughts on the restoration work.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Russ Arbuthnot on June 22, 2017, 10:54:09 PM
Great news! Makes me even more excited to play it again later this summer. So happy to hear they restored the 4th cross-bunker. Can't wait to see it and the other changes.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Ben Hollerbach on June 23, 2017, 09:34:05 AM
A couple of images from the clubs facebook page

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18076970_10154700015512833_2214142956441477407_o.png?oh=d03fada960a5f504e3e8ad4d68152e26&oe=59D76943)


(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18076728_10154694537187833_708827332391266009_o.jpg?oh=e4731bda5b13b213a9eeaaf3eb680f1e&oe=59DCBFE1)
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Ryan Taylor on August 13, 2020, 02:59:38 PM
Bump. Do yourself a favor and book a round at Belvedere GC this fall. I played this Wed and the course is in the best shape it's been in my 10+ years of playing it. It appears as though the greens have been expanded (slowly cut back) by another 3-4 feet. It's really quite remarkable to see the transformation. Bruce Hepner and the old / new superintendent, (Jordan Caplan??), should be applauded.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Peter Flory on August 13, 2020, 03:38:26 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/UqphTSNh.jpg)
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Ira Fishman on August 13, 2020, 04:11:24 PM
We did not play Belvedere, but seeing Charlevoix in the Subject Line brought back great memories of our one trip to Northern Michigan some 30 years ago. It may be Covid induced nostalgia, but I can still taste cherries and see the beautiful lakes plus some good golf. A way under appreciated part of the US (and I am a City guy) where it looks as if the golf has only gotten better in the intervening years.


Ira
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JLahrman on August 13, 2020, 04:21:15 PM
Yes, northern Michigan is great, I played Belvedere back in 2014 (along with Kingsley, thanks to a generous GCAer) when we went up to Charlevoix with my wife's family.
Lots of other great-looking courses in the area too, I'm hoping to get back up there. My in-laws
live in Grand Rapids, we go there every summer (except this one, thanks COVID) but I haven't been Up North since that trip in 2014. It was in the works for this year until we had to scrap our travel plans.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Carl Rogers on August 13, 2020, 04:23:27 PM
When the virus is over, Belvedere is an obvious play on a trip to the upper Midwest.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: George Freeman on August 13, 2020, 04:31:44 PM
I grew up in Traverse City and played golf up there my entire life.  I had never heard of Belvedere GC until finding this website in my early/mid 20s.  And amazingly I have only played the course once, almost a decade ago.  I recall really enjoying the course and would have thought I would have been back to visit many times between then and now.  Time flies.  Clearly I need to get back.

I am obviously biased, but in my opinion there aren't too many better places to be in June-September than NW Michigan, golf-related or otherwise...
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: Cliff Hamm on August 13, 2020, 04:36:53 PM
Is there a state with better public access courses than Michigan, largely thanks to Northern Michigan? Yes, Oregon is at the top for quality,perhaps, but that is almost exclusively due to Bandon.  For depth of quality Michigan looks like the winner.
Title: Re: Belvedere GC, Charlevoix, MI
Post by: JC Jones on August 13, 2020, 05:12:39 PM
Is there a state with better public access courses than Michigan, largely thanks to Northern Michigan? Yes, Oregon is at the top for quality,perhaps, but that is almost exclusively due to Bandon.  For depth of quality Michigan looks like the winner.


I grew up in Michigan and spend a good chunk of every summer in Charlevoix so Im clearly biased.  Nonetheless, I think Michigan is the best state for public golf.


Anyone making a trip to northern Michigan for golf should spend a round at Belvedere.  Especially if they are driving right past it on their way to walk in the footsteps of Tom Coyne.