Tom,
I don't think the people at Toledo CC and White Bear YC will agree with your assessment that Willie Watson designed their courses any more than MCC will agree with you that Barker designed theirs. That is just based on my limited contacts at each club.
Just what evidence do you have that Watson designed those, rather than those credited with the designs? Some more train schedules?
8) ok.. Road trip.. who wants to join ms sheila and I at Belvedere and even Dunmaglas at end of July? should be good berry picking by then
JC Jones, we have cabin at Blue Lake about 45 minutes south.. expect an email after 25 july..
Mark
He is not fully appreciated. Watson designed many more courses than what is generally known. I've identified 45 designs in California, Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Colorado, Arizona and New York, including some high profile courses credited to others, like Thousand Island (Raynor), Toledo (Park) and White Bear Yacht (Ross). There is still quite bit of Watson at Interlachen, and he designed Minikahda. He was heavily involved in two of the courses at Olympia Fields. Olympic-Ocean may have been his greatest accomplishment, but unfortunately it fell into the sea.
He is unique in that he was not home-grown professional in Scotland, nor even a good amateur. I'm still trying to figure out how he became a pro, I think his father was involved in clubmaking, and they came over together. To my knowledge he never competed in tournament. His design career stretched from 1898 to 1928, and that covers some pretty dramatic changes.
That is the first I've read of him being associated with the Chicago GC.
As I told you in private email, I think your digging and finding skills are much more evolved and valuble than your interpretive skills. It seems to me that your theories always rely on a lot of fantastic coincidences to be true, while I believe that the simplest explanation usually is the most correct.
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:
"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "
What dates did Watson and Park work? Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?
Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting. And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:
"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "
What dates did Watson and Park work? Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?
Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting. And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.
Toledo CC is so proud of their Willie Park Jr. Course design that they include him with Arthur Hills on their website and have a link to Art Hills site!!!! ::)
I played a Willie Park Jr. course in Ohio that celebrated their Willie Park Jr. heritage in a different way - they displayed Park's orginal desgin drawings, layout, and individual hole plans.
Chris
And, from theToledo Country Club web page:
"The Toledo Country Club is one of the oldest and finest Country Clubs in the Midwest, established in 1897 with the purchase of approximately thirty acres of land along the Maumee River. A nine-hole golf course was constructed almost immediately while today’s Clubhouse was completed by 1901. The course was originally designed by British Open Champion Willie Park Jr. and was later redesigned by Arthur Hills. "
What dates did Watson and Park work? Did Park redo and then expand the 9 holes?
Just asking. Like Tom, I do find all this history interesting. And it appears that architectural attributions just weren't considered quite as important to make in those days.
Toledo CC is so proud of their Willie Park Jr. Course design that they include him with Arthur Hills on their website and have a link to Art Hills site!!!! ::)
I played a Willie Park Jr. course in Ohio that celebrated their Willie Park Jr. heritage in a different way - they displayed Park's orginal desgin drawings, layout, and individual hole plans.
Chris
The real question is, how close is the current version of the course to the original design?
JC Jones,
I am well aware that Mr. Hills is very big in these parts and for the record, I am not anti-Art Hills courses (I even know where his unique office is). You may be right on how the contract was constructed. But I do believe this proves that are not as proud as they may come across about their Park course.
Chris
JC Jones,
I am well aware that Mr. Hills is very big in these parts and for the record, I am not anti-Art Hills courses (I even know where his unique office is). You may be right on how the contract was constructed. But I do believe this proves that are not as proud as they may come across about their Park course.
Chris
I think you are right about their pride in their heritage. Not anti-Art Hills? You must like fairway bunkers in typical landing zones that spread 75% across the fairway!! ;)
There was speculation that Bell was involved based on the looks of the bunkers, but I've never seen any evidence Bell came to Michigan. Its not surprising Watson and Bell's bunkers would look similar since Bell was a protege of Waton's.
This has all been discussed before, maybe a couple of years ago. Tommy N. dug up some info. If I knew how to do searches here might be able to find it.
But in any case, after seeing that 1938USGS the bunkering that is there from the renovation is a disaster.
Should we move all of these posts to a Willie Watson thread?
I think I find what has happened to the 8th and 16th the most disappointing. Makes you want to sneak out there some night and do some digging.
I had never played this course before today, although I walked it a couple of times when I first came to northern Michigan.
It was a wonderful, pleasant round of golf. It's exactly the kind of course golf needs more of, but that no one is building.
Goes with the flow of the land. Very simple bunkering which must cost pennies to maintain. Great greens, and great greens surrounds for chipping. Simple to build, simple to maintain.
I'm not trying to be too harsh on modern architects here. Out of 15 past clients I think maybe only one or two of them would have wanted something this simple. But seeing Belvedere makes me think everyone is trying too hard.
Tom,
At nearly 230 yards today, I wondered if initially the 4th played more like a 3.5 par with most of the members unable to hit the green in 1 stroke. If that was the case I'd imagine the original bunkering on the 4th made for a wonderful short hole.
Where belvedere really shines is in the movement of land into and around the green complexes. Holes like 3, 6, 7, 11, 16, and 17 utalize the topography and slope beautifully around their greens. Enough so, that between those 6 green only 2 bunkers sit as protection. Looking at the old aerial in the clubhouse, I really would love to see the course go through a bunker restoration to match.Yes!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2UpAYKHTHpgPqZtdqwvvkw1VhysaOmM0aMGnkY0JWc_gQguzmQOAFyqc81xxbRpchPQx1n3V1_5Qv4cygaTXC3dLvNnT7CEmXTvGWkwDrHFea2iz5iUw1bdieC-dwKsqOZLzEh6ujxqlXRlfvmJTLJ4w5OhMsHW3yQR-GTHTrStNgRf2ayuchoR7GfwUcl5rnCFqqaYFNpJ0qjJwzQCscLr4K1k7GAacXcBWvD7jjhVEZVsOubHO5bx_kXgs-ajizg93eB19PoFcqfQNlbjToWWV39EN7P6ajyB7uKJf1FZiGarLoNk3eGRwfEX5Lf1ku6YV9k2ZqtmhPGaIsOvvyFjd5BGgcKSH58GVjgMKj_hkGVz9YVmXkN12iCgLmOnjGaMne3EcqlCoiJqZX8TBSgq7N4ww0KUVqG6W9--8AY4284Tp3eKcPpkxl6SNf8mDgyMiRtfVv8z6U7ymx3syHdHF-IQhRxP-CAetizqoepVHOde2beuojwXDPH4PKuCoR2Ag4FL1cKBdwshszZYLp0LVICj-0MZknxGvvSp4F9Jm1jJnmhWv-KVd9luvtzZWLCUa_HTcawyNSpsAk24ey6d808JGSfM=w1172-h659-no)
One of the more interesting things I've always found about the course in that 1938 aerial is the few holes that aren't bunkered. 5 and 14 are the 2 holes with the least interesting land on the entire course (along with 2 but it does have the giant dogleg bunker of 6 behind the green) and when looking at the aerial, those holes are without bunkers.
One of the more interesting things I've always found about the course in that 1938 aerial is the few holes that aren't bunkered. 5 and 14 are the 2 holes with the least interesting land on the entire course (along with 2 but it does have the giant dogleg bunker of 6 behind the green) and when looking at the aerial, those holes are without bunkers.
Those holes are in the low lands and drainage may have dictated the bunkering decision.
One of the more interesting things I've always found about the course in that 1938 aerial is the few holes that aren't bunkered. 5 and 14 are the 2 holes with the least interesting land on the entire course (along with 2 but it does have the giant dogleg bunker of 6 behind the green) and when looking at the aerial, those holes are without bunkers.
Those holes are in the low lands and drainage may have dictated the bunkering decision.
You certainly know more than I. The only counter I would have to that is 12 green and 10 green having bunkers and they are relatively same level as 13, same the bunkers on 6 relative to 5.
Is there a state with better public access courses than Michigan, largely thanks to Northern Michigan? Yes, Oregon is at the top for quality,perhaps, but that is almost exclusively due to Bandon. For depth of quality Michigan looks like the winner.