Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on December 29, 2007, 11:32:05 AM
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Woking is famed for the changes to the greens and bunkers the team of John Low and Stuart Paton effected in the first years of the 20th century. What isn't well known is that Paton (with the help of Low and occassionally other very well known archies) continued to make changes for nearly four decades! Both were long time members of Woking and well known in golf circles due to R&A Committee work. Additionally, Low was an excellent amateur golfer and author of Concerning Golf. In many ways, Low is a forgotten giant of the game. His stance against "fairness" as a foundation of the rules and architecture was not popular at the time. Where the rules are concerned it is debatable if his opinions were ever popular. Continuing with the rules, his fears about the quality of the ball have more or less come true. Low fought a fierce battle against the introduction of the Haskell because of what the future might bring via technology improvements. However, where design is concerned, Paton and Low's ideas on strategic design are very much the underpinning of the currrent renaissance being led by Doak, C&C etc.
The work on Woking's greens and bunkers continued for some years until the course was on equal footing with the reputation of the club. Darwin briefly relates the story in his Golf Courses of the British Isles. "Unconscious of their doom, the members disperse for their summer holidays and when they return they find that the most revolutionary things have been done. Upon greens that were formerly flat and easy have sprouted plateaus and domes and hollows. Hillocks have risen as if by magic in the middle of the fairway; 'floral' hazards bloom at the side, and bunkers have been dug at that precise spot where members have for years complacently watched their ball come to rest at the end of their finest shots."
John Low
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The most well known and possibly most influential architectural change by the "Junta" was carried out on the 4th in the year 1902. A "Principal's Nose" bunker was placed in the left-centre of the fairway. The effect is a remarkable likeness to the tee shot on the 16th of The Old Course at St Andrews. This was not a coincidental change, but one appealing to the indestructible values of strategic links design. The middle section of a cross-rampart just shy of the green was also removed to encourage a running approach shot. These changes produced a clear-cut decision to be made on the tee. Play safely left and leave oneself with a difficult approach across a narrow opening of the green toward the railroad tracks (out of bounds) or take on the out of bounds and the bunker on the tee by threading a drive down the right and thus leaving a relatively easy approach.
This emphasis on tempting the golfer rather than punishing a poor shot perfectly describes one of John Low's main principles outlined in his Concerning Golf; published in 1903 and perhaps the first book on golf architecture. "The shortest, most direct line to the hole, even if it be the centre of the fairway, should be fraught with danger." This concept was more eloquently stated by Max Behr in later years: "The direct line to the hole is the line of instinct, and to make a good hole you must break up that line in order to create the line of charm." Dr Alister MacKenzie was also greatly influenced by the concept of the Line of Charm and believed no hole was a good one unless it has one or more hazards in the direct line of a hole. In hindsight it is easy to see why the team of Paton and Low are often credited with the re-birth of strategic design at a crucial time in architectural history when the great heathland courses and thus the great architects were only just emerging.
It is very strange to start on the short two-shotter first when the 14th has the obvious hallmarks of a finisher. Starting on the 15th has three clear advantages. First and foremost, it would allow the 14th, a mere few steps away from the house veranda, to be the home hole. Second, it breaks up Woking's two par 5s. Finally, one is properly warmed up and/or recovered from drink to give the first (which would be the 5th) the attention it merits. The walk around the clubhouse between 18 and 1 is quite short, not much further than from the lockeroom. It would be a simple matter to make the walk a bit more cheery; truth be told it should be made more attractive in any case.
The 2nd is the first of a good set of 3 pars. Curiously, three of the four play to roughly the same yardage, but they have a different look and set of shot requirements.
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One shouldn't discuss Woking for long without mention of the first class greens. In my experience, conceptually, Woking's greens are as good as any I have played. It was incredibly clever of Paton & Low to allow a handful of more subdued greens (especially the front to backers 1, 4 & 17) to create a devilish foil with the more unruly sort such as on 12, 13 & 15. The 2nd green.
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Probably my favourite hole on the course - #3. The lay of the land pushes tee shots much further left than is at first apparent. I think the hole location, as is the case on many of Woking's holes, largely determines the best angle of attack. Luckily, due to the terrific clearing of trees in recent years, the hole location of the 3rd can be spied from the 1st fairway.
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I can't think of a better placed bunker anywhere.
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In recent years a left hand fairway bunker was added to the famous 4th. It seems to me that this bunker spoils the simple efficiency of the old scheme. Choosing to go left is an awful angle, that in essence is the rabbit line. The front to back nature of the green is a key feature of the hole which should get more notice. Darwin was involved in an interesting episode whilst playing this hole during a competition. After missing birdie putts on each of the opening trio of holes, Darwin then missed a three footer for a 3. He then fell to his hands and knees, tore a bit if the green away with his teeth and cried in a voice seething with anguish, "O God, are you satisfied now?"
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The 5th takes us up the hill which #s 2 & 3 work along.
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The 5th green from the 6th tee.
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One of the least engaging holes, the 6th plays between bunkers and has a fine water feature which is not well used. Extending the green to the front left at the edge of the stream would greatly enhance the strategy of the hole. As designed now, the water does not entice the player to take on a risky play.
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The 7th is the second short hole with all its trouble up front.
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This photo is from well in front of the tee. It easy to see the left bunker has been reshaped, as have many bunkers.
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I always thought the 8th plays and looks a bit similar to the shorter 5th. One aspect I really like about this hole is that even though this is a slight dogleg, the green can be seen from the tee. A view of the green on leggers encourages players to hit toward it (the line of instinct) and often end up in trouble.
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The approach shows off the lovely bunker work and the unusual placement of sand.
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Irrespective of the rather less than handsome raised back tee, the one hole I am not sold on is the 9th because it's a tee shot where the flat belly has an obviously huge advantage as he can carry the left corner where the likes of me has to go around. Normally this isn't a major issue; except the 9th is a reverse dogleg whereby the hill kicks tee shots out right, away from the target. Well, all great courses have to have a controversial hole and I reckon this is Woking's. I have to wonder if altering the 1937 Simpson designed hole was wise. On paper, the long par 4 (then 10th) seemed to be a winner with two centreline bunkers. I also suspect the long par 3 (then 9th) which played through the current 9th fairway from a tee behind 8 green was better than the current version whose genesis began in 1960. It would be interesting to know why the changes were made.
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The 10th features dead ground shy of the green which makes it hard to to choose the right club. The green is slightly askew from the tee and a bit of an awkward angle because Simpson's hole came up the hill diagonally from a spot through the 9th fairway some 430 yards distant. If one looks from halfway up the 9th fairway, the green makes more sense. Woking has a little bit of something for everyone. As such, it has to have red herring bunker or two and that is exactly what the bunker is on the right of the fairway of #11. Many can carry the bunker so folks will want to have a go, but the carry is for naught as the only reward is a stand of heather. Cleverly, there is a flat area just beyond the hill and tight to the heather. One will notice that nearly all of the approaches at Woking are either uphill or downhill. Many of the seemingly flat approaches are actually front to back running greens.
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Turning back on the 11th, the 12th is another one of those holes in which it pays to preview the hole placement earlier in the round. I think there is a great opportunity to cut the trees down the right and continue the heather toward the green. Probably the wildest green on the course, but like #6, the green doesn't extend to the front left to make the all the bunkers matter as much as they should.
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The green from just off the 11th tee.
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Up to now the heather has mainly been a peripheral hazard which disciplines the wayward golfer. #s 13 and 14 create angles using the heather. The 13th slips left around a heather clad bunker. One will also sense the more enclosed nature and precision required from the tee.
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Rear of the green featuring the slit.
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Trees well and truly begin to unnecesssarily encroach on the course...this is evident by the cool, damp climate and a less than full view of the house from the 14th tee. This feels like it should be the finishing hole, but its the first of two three-shotters, which happen to be back to back. The "safe" left side of the fairway drops significantly toward the trees. The player who successfully challenges the heather on the right is rewarded with a flat lie and a better view. A look at the green. There is a large elongated blind swale short of this green which stalls a long approach. In an effort to make sure shots climb this slope I reckon many must shoot through the green and end up on the veranda....which is in play.
Sadly, the roof is no longer in play.
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Sadly, the roof is no longer in play.
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The old green looks a bit more rambunctious!
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The 15th isn't an exciting hole, until reaching the green!
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The final par 3 takes us over the pond. If I had to describe the hole in general terms I would say it looks like a modern links par 3. Maybe the archie tried a bit too hard to create something special because this strikes me as a visually busy hole. It was completed about 2013 and has been met with mixed reviews. The green is angled and narrow, leaving precious little space for hole locations. However, it was the large pimple near the rear of the green which didn't stand up to current maintenance practices. Rightfully so, the mound has been softened. The hole isn't far off being excellent, but perhaps more tree removal left and right and a bunker or two filled in would be in order. Given the very narrow target, it doesn't seem like four bunkers should required.
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On the surface, the penultimate hole may seem a bit dull, but one must take great care with the approach to the severely front to back sloped green - my favourite on the course. It doesn't look it, but I reckon the green must drop at least two feet from front to back. I wonder if the right-front greenside sand is the famous Johnnie Low bunker; it could be that the green has shrunk. Much like the centreline bunkers on the 4th, this bunker set right into the green and forced a decision to be made. In other words, the bunker introduced temptation to the hole.
The final hole brings us home in a pleasant manner reminiscent of the finishers at TOC and North Berwick. Once again the line of instinct takes the golfer rather close to the water's edge. Unless one can drive the green, the line of charm is a wise road to take, well to the left on the house clock, but not literally as CH Alison did in the 1904 Oxford & Cambridge Society match. Incidentally, Alison earned a par! The heathery mound left of the fairway was recently introduced.
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Due to golfers intinctively wanting to hit directly at the hole, many approaches are from this sort of angle.
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The green is a side by side three tiered affair sloping hard toward the water.
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For a golfer looking to play a friendly game on a course which is not overly influenced by the overt trappings of championship golf, there are few better places than Woking. The course offers enough width to allow aggressive play, the walk is comfortable, the greens are without exception full of interest, there is an unusual variety of bunker placement and the club has an understated elegance which is very becoming. For those who believe that great courses must have great holes, I offer #s 3 & 4 as All-England candidates. Both are terrific par 4s whose bunker placement is among the very best in the world. Woking is one of my strong candidates for "If You Could Only Play One Course The Rest Of Your Life" and I hope this tour helps explain why. 1* 2021
Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/woking1/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/woking1/)
Ciao
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Did any of you get a picture of the 13th green Sean? Ran covets one for his course profile which has an old one at present.
You are right about the slope of the 4th green - I hit a lob wedge to that green from light rough on the left, and I hit it well, and it still ran through. That is a big part of the protection of the hole.
It is a strong nine holes where the 6th does not deserve a mention! I also like the 4th as a gentle opener which is quite distinctive, and invites you to try to do too much.
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That bunker in the fairway on #4 just might be the most historically significant man-made architectural bunker in the world.
And of course one should not forget the apparent firestorm of controversy it caused when it first appeared.
Today some consider it to be inland architecture's first hazard connection to natural linksland architecture.
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Sean, is that heather above the bunkers? If not, that is some gnarly rough!
Funny, when I saw the photo of #3 before reading the text, I thought it looked like you could bounce a shot right of the bunker and off that slope onto the green.
Upon closer examination, it looks like there is some slope there that would run a ball off to the right, so maybe not.
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Sorry Philip, it started to get a bit dark and/or there was loads of bunker work on the back 9. The 13th does have that funky gulley in the back left which is the most bizarre feature of any of the greens at Woking.
I am not terribly keen on the 6th because I think the bunkering (much of it new) is out of character in both placement (both sides of fairway) and shape with the rest of the course. They need to work on these a bit. I also think the water should come more into play on the front of the green. Basically, the hole should be much better than what it is.
T Paul - The 4th gets all the glory at Woking, but I think the 3rd is a better hole and a better centreline bunker. The only aspect I don't like about the hole (as Bill pointed out) is that it seems there should be a kick in from the right - naturally off the slope off the hill. I reckon the slope was taken out to stop a kick in - mores the pity if this is the case.
Bill - many of the bunkers have heather on the tops. The heather re-generation is coming along nicely - as is the clearing of trees and undergrowth. Woking is a much more playable course than 15 years ago. Though I must say (and I am usually against lengthening) that the added yards will do the course wonders to make the bunkering work better.
Ciao
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I see your point re 6...if the course was rerouted as you/NAF suggest, then 6 would be the start of the second nine which would be quite good teeing off from that imposing, elevated tee.
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According to the slow play thread, however, making the 15th and 16th (a short par 5 and a par 3) as the two starting holes would be a disaster!
Sean: I was surprised that you say the 3rd hole does not have a good "kick in" from the right. When I played there years ago, the ball came off the hill on the right like a jackrabbit on the run ... in fact, you had to play out to the left off the tee or the second shot would release so quickly that you had no idea where it might settle out. The 8th hole at Pacific Dunes is based on that green, it's one of my favorite ideas I've ever stolen from somewhere else.
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it's one of my favorite ideas I've ever stolen from somewhere else.
Tom
I recently ran into an associate of William Burroughs' who said that he used to annotate the books he read marking certain passages 'GETS' - Good enough to steal...
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According to the slow play thread, however, making the 15th and 16th (a short par 5 and a par 3) as the two starting holes would be a disaster!
Sean: I was surprised that you say the 3rd hole does not have a good "kick in" from the right. When I played there years ago, the ball came off the hill on the right like a jackrabbit on the run ... in fact, you had to play out to the left off the tee or the second shot would release so quickly that you had no idea where it might settle out. The 8th hole at Pacific Dunes is based on that green, it's one of my favorite ideas I've ever stolen from somewhere else.
Tom
There is an odd depression off the right of the green not far from the bunker which looks strange considering the steep drop from the hill on which the 2nd is. I intentionally hit my shot out to the right thinking it would kick in around the bunker - no go.
Ciao
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I was also surprised by how much movement the greens had. For the most part nothing too crazy, but very interesting none the less.
A closer look at #3. I wonder if well placed balls will come off the that bank and kick toward the hole if the player swings his approach in from the right?
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One of the things that struck me about Woking this time is how important it is to miss in the right place on certain holes, and how the contours of the greens and the variety of possible hole locations affect this. In your photo of the third, my ball is visible up near the tree behind the green, and the movement in that green towards the front is enough to imagine the recovery shot from my position would not stop on the green in firm conditions.
Of course, you could point out that no-one should hit it there in the first place ;)
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What is that area on the 8th which appears to be not maintained? Marsh?
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Joel on the 8th there's a carry over mostly heather and a stream. The ropes are there as a part of the scheme to revive the heather that patch just has more grass areas than some.
One interesting maintenance action we saw being carried out, was a large blower on the back of a tractor raising the leaves up and the wind carrying them from the heather to areas where they could be collected more easily.
I don't know if this is to aid finding balls or to prevent the leaves rotting down and enriching the soil (heather thrives in poor free draining soil) or both? Quite time consuming due tothe scale of heather they have but I assume an essentila part of the the proper maintenace of heather if you want it to thrive.
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Sean -
It's interesting you picked the 3rd as your favorite. You are in good company. Charles Ambrose also picked the 3rd in 1926. It was one of the holes he included in his ideal 18 inland holes.
Given all the attention given to the 4th over the years (starting with Low and Simpson, through and including Bobby Jones later), both Ambrose's and your choice surprised me.
But then I've never played Woking. I very much hope to someday. Thanks for the pics and the commentary.
Bob
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Sean -
It's interesting you picked the 3rd as your favorite. You are in good company. Charles Ambrose also picked the 3rd in 1926. It was one of the holes he included in his ideal 18 inland holes.
Given all the attention given to the 4th over the years (starting with Low and Simpson, through and including Bobby Jones later), both Ambrose's and your choice surprised me.
But then I've never played Woking. I very much hope to someday. Thanks for the pics and the commentary.
Bob
Bob
The 3rd exemplifies my ideal of good bunkering. There is only one bunker and it influences play no matter where you drive the ball - centreline. It just so happens in the pic above that the hole was cut directly behind the bunker which means the bunker is at its maximum impact. This is also why I think its a mistake to not allow a bounce in from the natural slope on the right - trying to give the player the option of avoiding the bunker, but at the risk of missing the green. The 3rd is truly a wonderful hole.
Ciao
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Sean, I was looking at your first two photos of #3, the one from the approach area and the next from a lot closer. The photo from farther out does look like the general slope, particularly short of the green, will kick a shot up there toward the green (as Tom Doak mentions above with a reference to #8 at Pacific Dunes where that really works!), where the photo of the closer area looks like there is one shoulder that could keep some balls away from the green.
Maybe a runner that lands 20 yards short of the green will follow that macro slope where a higher lofted shot will hit the smaller slope and run away. That could be very likely. Very fun!
#8 at Pacific Dunes has no little counterslope, so a ball up there is going to eventually go left. That's why it's fun to hit those shots up there and see where they wind up.
Gotta get back to Bandon.........and really want to spend some time around London playing. As usual, too much golf and too little time........
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Sean -
Ambrose liked the 3rd for the same reasons you give. He called the bunker on the 3rd a "governing" bunker, meaning that it influenced very shot on the hole. Ambrose developed a list of other "governing" bunkers. Two were the Road Hole Bunker and Hell Bunker (though even in 1926 Hell was becoming obsolete as a factor on second shots). I will need to dig out of my notes the others Ambrose named.
A bunker that functioned as a "governing" bunker was for Ambrose the pinnacle of good design. It tended to be one of only a few hazards on a hole, but its placement was so well conceived that you had to deal with it from the tee and on every shot thereafter.
Ambrose was an interesting guy. He spent a lot of energy advocating the virtues of inland architecture as found on courses around London. He thought they were under-appreciated and often over-looked in favor of the famous links courses. I think he is still right about that.
Bob
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Bob, can you please tell us a little about Ambrose and his writings? A quick Google tells me nothing.
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Ambrose was an interesting guy. He spent a lot of energy advocating the virtues of inland architecture as found on courses around London. He thought they were under-appreciated and often over-looked in favor of the famous links courses. I think he is still right about that.
Bob
Perhaps a field trip to London is in order??? ??? ;D
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Come over soon and bring the happy bride. ;D
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Ambrose was an interesting guy. He spent a lot of energy advocating the virtues of inland architecture as found on courses around London. He thought they were under-appreciated and often over-looked in favor of the famous links courses. I think he is still right about that.
Bob
Perhaps a field trip to London is in order??? ??? ;D
Absolutely, but have you checked out the confiscatory exchange rates recently? I'm all for supporting the economy of Merry Olde England, but jeez.
I never thought I would say this but with current exchange rates, Pebble Beach is starting to look like a bargain.
Bob
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Ambrose was an interesting guy. He spent a lot of energy advocating the virtues of inland architecture as found on courses around London. He thought they were under-appreciated and often over-looked in favor of the famous links courses. I think he is still right about that.
Bob
Perhaps a field trip to London is in order??? ??? ;D
Absolutely, but have you checked out the confiscatory exchange rates recently? I'm all for supporting the economy of Merry Olde England, but jeez.
I never thought I would say this but with current exchange rates, Pebble Beach is starting to look like a bargain.
Bob
I'm not sure why, but the pound is actually down 5% the past few weeks - it was up to $2.09 :o but today is $1.98. Go figure, it's still a lot worse than my first trip over when it was $1.49.
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BobC:
To your knowledge what-all newspapers or other publications did Charles Ambrose write for and for how long? I realize he was an occassional contributor to London's FIELD.
It also might be a good idea to get that series of about 6-8 articles on bunkering on here that we found in The FIELD from the 1920s. That was some remarkably clear-headed and sophisticated stuff philosophically and otherwise.
That series kind of made me think of that old saw---"The more things change the more they remain the same."
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Tom/Tony -
I don't have a definitive list of where Ambrose published, but it includes the British Golf Illustrated and Field. He was editor of the British Golf Illustrated for a time, but I am not sure of the beginning and ending dates. He was an active contributor to Field during the mid-20's (which would have been a bit odd if he were editor of Golf Illustrated at the same time).
Ambrose was very well connected. He regularly consulted Colt, Abercromby, Croome, Simpson, Fowler, MacK and others for his articles. As you know, he and Crane were writing articles for Field on gca more or less concurrently. Ambrose was pretty cheesed off about Crane's approach to gca, to the point that it inspired him to write a series of articles on ideal inland holes based on suggestions given to him by Colt et al.
Ambrose was an interesting guy. He was not as good a writer as Darwin (who was?) but I think his analysis of gca was more perceptive. I always get the feeling with Darwin that gca topics were for him a hot potato burning his fingers. He doesn't seem to want to linger on the topic and couldn't wait to move on to something less controversial. Ambrose dove in, swam around in it and made waves.
Ambrose, Crane and Darwin are reminders that the lay analysis of gca - at least as we find it in mass circulation golf mags - can be so much better than it is currently. The Whittens and others in GD or Golf pale in comparison, at a number of levels. And lay analysis is important. For all the drawbacks of a non-professional critic, they do have the inestimable advantage of not having a stake in the game. That advantage is not being exploited in mass market publications the way it once was.
Bob
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I loved Woking when I played it in September. They have undertaken a hefty program of shrub clearing from under the trees and reinstatement of the heather, especially around the bunkers. Neither of these projects is yet complete. Those bunkers to the right of 6 are still a work in progress.
I don't agree with the rerouting that Sean suggests although 14 is definitely the natural round closer. Tom suggesting that slow play would become an issue starting with a short par-5 and par-3 can't hold any sway though as the current routing starts with a driveable par-4 followed by a par-3... Anyway, the club holds a 2-ball only policy specifically to avoid slow play.
As for the bunker on 3, when I played there, that bunker had rough cut to the right of it where it seemed blindingly obvious that it should have been cut as fairway thus creating a natural kick-in off the bank.
I also don't agree with Sean that the front-9 is considerably better than the back. If I had to choose one or other, I'd go for the back because for me it provides the more interesting approach shots and green complexes. There are some really original wild undulations on 12, 13, 15 and 18 greens and I particularly liked the approaches to 11, 12, 13, 14 and 17.
Sean, I wonder if you would be in agreement with me that they could fill in all 3 greenside bunkers on 12 (making the entire hole bunkerless) and the hole would perhaps be even better than it is now? - a great natural green site.
Anyway, those are my quick thoughts. I adored Woking. It is a course I think of often.
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I am actually a member of Woking and have just recently completed a dissertation on the renovation work carried out on a number of heathland courses - including Woking.
The changes which are currently taking place involving the bunkers is a 5 year program which will renovate all bunkers. The old bunkerstyle (which is still obvious on most holes) will be replaced by a more 'Queenwood-inspired' style.
The shrub and tree clearing is a part of a heathland restoration project (similiar to what is happening at Sunningdale New and The Berkshire). Though producing a slightly better environment for the heather it is miles from what has successfully transformed Walton Heath and Hankley Common into more 'old-fashioned' heathland courses with less trees.
Regarding the 3rd hole bunker I agree that it is in my top-3 of best positioned bunkers in the world! I think this is primarily due to the fact that the green is tiny (!) with a severe slope off the green on the front left side. You are almost forced to carry the bunker to stay on the green.
It is not accurate that you can always bounce in from the right - even though it seems like it (and often ends up like that). I think the reason why it seems like this is because every shot landing on the green will be affected by the significant right to left diagonal step running through the green. This means in order to really hold the green you have to aim straight on the right side of the bunker to catch the step and end up in the middle of the tiny green (from where you always have a relatively short putt).
The old routing is in the clubhouse and shows that holes 1-7 are still in original positions.
The club has a 2 ball (and/or foursome) policy and only 300 members so there are rarely any problems with crowding.
The 12th green was not designed like that by Low and Paton - the infamous back left part was added by the club committee.
I will end this post with a quote from Darwin describing th changes to Woking made in the early 1900s by Paton and Low – transforming it from an unsophisticated Dunn layout to a world class heathland course. As Darwin poetically describes the changes; “Unconscious of their doom, the members disperse for their summer holidays and when they return they find that the most revolutionary things have been done. Upon greens that were formerly flat and easy have sprouted plateaus and domes and hollows. Hillocks have risen as if by magic in the middle of the fairway … bunkers have been dug at that precise spot where members have for years complacently watched their ball come to rest at the end of their finest shots … All these things happen at the instigation of a very small secret Junta, and after a little grumbling, such as is only right and proper, the members settle down and admit that the alterations are exceedingly ingenious and the course more entertaining than ever.’
I think only Darwin could put it like that - a shame no one writes like that any more!
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Another great thing about Woking is that it is often (in my opinion) the heathland course in the best condtion.
Fairways are perfectly cut (except maybe not using the right moving pattern?) and the course is draining much better after they cleared the shrubs and restored a lot of old ditches around the course which was not fully functional.
To anyone slghtly into golf course architecture Woking is a must visit!
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Take a look at the updated thread. The club is slowly but surely making Woking one of the finest inland courses in the country.
Ciao
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Sean - thanks for pulling this thread back up (and Philip S for your posts). But I think we have a rare disagreement here - that 9th hole looks (and from your write-up sounds) like an excellent golf hole. I'm only 5000 sit-ups away from being able to play it well...
Peter
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I will end this post with a quote from Darwin describing th changes to Woking made in the early 1900s by Paton and Low – transforming it from an unsophisticated Dunn layout to a world class heathland course. As Darwin poetically describes the changes; “Unconscious of their doom, the members disperse for their summer holidays and when they return they find that the most revolutionary things have been done. Upon greens that were formerly flat and easy have sprouted plateaus and domes and hollows. Hillocks have risen as if by magic in the middle of the fairway … bunkers have been dug at that precise spot where members have for years complacently watched their ball come to rest at the end of their finest shots … All these things happen at the instigation of a very small secret Junta, and after a little grumbling, such as is only right and proper, the members settle down and admit that the alterations are exceedingly ingenious and the course more entertaining than ever.’
I think only Darwin could put it like that - a shame no one writes like that any more!
Philip - I missed the wonderful Darwin passage you posted earlier this year. As you know, Simpson had his own version of the episode, though his verison is more prosaic.
Thanks. Sean and you have convinced me to get to Woking someday.
Bob
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Sean - thanks for pulling this thread back up (and Philip S for your posts). But I think we have a rare disagreement here - that 9th hole looks (and from your write-up sounds) like an excellent golf hole. I'm only 5000 sit-ups away from being able to play it well...
Peter
Those who really like the reverse camber tee shots at the Olympic Club Lakeside course will like the 9th at Woking! Those type of holes are difficult but very satisfying when you make the rare par or even rarer birdie.
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Bob, Philip - yes, not one writer in a thousand would've had the talent and grace to insert that little clause -"such as is only right and proper" - into the last sentence, and to make the whole work is such a beautifully balanced way. Lovely.
Peter
Bill - I think the Lakeside course was mentioned as an example on a recent canted/sloped fairways thread. I'm an average golfer but I hope to be better, and the reverse camber tee shot is just the cat's meow in my books
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Sean,
Thanks for the great pics - Woking is one of my favorite courses to see because it seems very simple and natural to me but there is obviously a lot of subtlety that makes it immensely challenging yet still very pleasing to the eye. The coloring is very very cool, and I do not think I will ever tire of seeing those heather rimmed bunkers.
No matter what the season - Woking looks like a really natural gem of a place.
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Sean
Nice thread and thanks for the updated photos.
I'm sure Bernardo would be most pleased with the state of his home course.
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I had a great day at Woking - first visit but I will certainly be back. I thought it was a wonderful course and it is interesting to see that all 3 Ws feel quite different - I would not like to comment which is best as they all have plus points - a lot more practice needed! But Woking certainly has the best or at least most peaceful/ serene site with less road noise and houses on its boundaries, which is a feature I like, even though it is not part of the architecture.
I thought the 9th was a fantastic hole right from the teeing area which looks like it has all been remodelled. It presents quite a challenge as to what to do as attempting to cut the corner over the trees is a high-risk option, I should know! It would also be a lot different from the rear tees about 50 yards back where you could use a wood with more confidence and not attack the corner. I Think my favourite stretch of holes was 10-14 as they felt the most heathlandy and there was a fair bit of natural undulation. My least favourite were probably the last 3 - all to do with them being flat, more hemmed in, with less space and a less heathlandy feel.
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Thanks for organising a great fun day and for updating this thread. It would be good to get amore detailed pictures of all 18 greens. That would make a great thread in itself.
The 17th is underrated; it’s like a microcosm of the club itself, subtle but strong. This is known as Low’s Bunker and he always liked the flag to be cut close to it. Hence at this stage in the game anyone who had to attack was in hot water.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/29Dec2008200.jpg?t=1230600888)
For the first time yesterday I realised there’s another bunker in front of it that is visible from the tee – placed there to intimidate?
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/29Dec2008197.jpg?t=1230600740)
The tradition at Woking is for the friendly match rather than the organised competition. I wonder if the routing starting on today’s 15 would be as good in matchplay?
Assigning Muldoon’s amended Par value.
Current finish 4.5, 5, 3, 4+, 3.5
Alternative finish 3, 4, 4, 4+, 4.5
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Peter as always you are right -- Woking 9 is fantastic!
17 is awesome, too.
Nice to ruminate on alternate routings but there in fact are several. Being a two-ball course, 18 is fine decider hole. It really does a wonderful job tempting the golfer who is level or down to have a big rip, and the rolling green has been known to give up its share of miracle putts, not to mention dramatic up-and-downs from the left bunker.
Sean, many thanks for the pics / update. An excellent year-round course!
Mark
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Peter as always you are right -- Woking 9 is fantastic!
17 is awesome, too.
Nice to ruminate on alternate routings but there in fact are several. Being a two-ball course, 18 is fine decider hole. It really does a wonderful job tempting the golfer who is level or down to have a big rip, and the rolling green has been known to give up its share of miracle putts, not to mention dramatic up-and-downs from the left bunker.
Sean, many thanks for the pics / update. An excellent year-round course!
Mark
Mark
Finishing on 14 is also a gambler's paradise. I like the idea of having to get up and down from the patio for a halved match. Plus, the 1st requires quite a deft touch and it is a pity this sort of birdieable hole comes straight out of the blocks. Besides, as Gordon Jones stated, its a killer to walk away from the kummel when one is so close to hatch after playing 14.
Tony
I agree that a study of the greens, especially in comparison to Beau Desert's would be a great thread. However, my camera isn't good enough to pull off the job.
Ciao
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For a golfer looking to play a friendly game on a course which is not overly influenced by championship golf, there are few better places than Woking. The course offers enough width to allow aggressive play, the walk is comfortable, but not without a few minor climbs, the greens are without exception full of interest, there is an unusual variety of bunker placement and the club has an understated elegance which is welcoming yet grand.
This sounds just like my kind of place. Thanks for the great photos and discussion. I've been interested in Woking for a while and after this latest photo tour I'm even more so. I think I have to visit during the BUDA trip.
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John and Sean,
Agreed. Woking looks irresistible.
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Sean:
I haven't spent any time in England during December, and notice that there's ice on the ponds in your pictures. Is that typical for this time of year -- or does it really depend on where you are? Without knowing any better, I wouldn't have guessed you'd have ice on the ponds.
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I have played Woking 5x now and recently this September. And it really has grown even better in my opinion. I hesitate to say it but other than Pulborough, it is becoming my favorite (not best) heathland to play.
Im not sure if this came up in the thread, but Martin Ebert is doing the work at Woking. The club is blessed to have one of the best club secretaries in the business- Mr. Ritchie.
The 18th is up for lengthening and I believe Mr. Ebert may push the green or extend it closer to the water making for a dicier shot to one of the best greens on the course.
Sean- great pix!
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Sean:
I haven't spent any time in England during December, and notice that there's ice on the ponds in your pictures. Is that typical for this time of year -- or does it really depend on where you are? Without knowing any better, I wouldn't have guessed you'd have ice on the ponds.
Carl
It is slightly unusual to have ice about for any length of time. At the moment we are in a bit of a cold snap - that is to say temps hovering around 0. I don't mind, if the temps are around 0 it isn't raining!
Tuco
I agree, Woking is fast (very fast) becoming one of my favourite courses as well. Martin Ebert has been doing a great job as I think the course has improved dramatically in the past 15 years.
Ciao
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Noel
Credit to the club's leadership for the clearing out. It was not done by acclamation of the membership, that's for sure. Not sure what to say about the new tee going in on one of the holes (9?) -- elevated so golfers can see the fairway.
Mark
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Noel
Credit to the club's leadership for the clearing out. It was not done by acclamation of the membership, that's for sure. Not sure what to say about the new tee going in on one of the holes (9?) -- elevated so golfers can see the fairway.
Mark
Mark
The back tee is now open. If it wasn't elevated the golfer wouldn't be able to see past the middle tee which is also very elevated. Both tees look very odd and and out of place at Woking. It seems I am the only one to believe this, but I don't think the hole works very well at all. Personally, I would like to see the right side of the fairway banked around the turn of the leg. It serves to encourage the golfer to sling a shot around the corner. But it also means that if one doesn't pull off this shot his recovery from the far side of the bank is much less forgiving. Either that or clear more trees out down the left with perhaps a bunker or two guarding the corner. I guess I feel the drive is too prescriptive and in the summer one has to lay up to the turn then bang a 3 wood up to the green. I spose I prefer if this hole had more options.
Ciao
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Okay, now I get why you're banging on about 9. We're more in agreement -- at least our aggro levels sound level. The difference of opinion comes down to whether one's assessment starts with the green or starts with the tee.
Greens trump tees in my book but that new tee...
Mark
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... I hesitate to say it but other than Pulborough, it is becoming my favorite (not best) heathland to play.
I've never heard of Pulborough. It's not in Darwin's book. Any insights to share of it?
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Slag - Pulborough is West Sussex, south of London towards the coast. It is at the top of my must-play list. It looks an exceptional heathland course (from the pictures I have seen) - a bit like a cross between Woodhall Spa and Sunningdale - and 2 of the par 3s are supposed to be among the world's best with similarities to Pine Valley.
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I had the pleasure of playing West Sussex for the first time this year, and highly recommend it. There are some fabulous holes, especially on the back nine. All the par 3's are superb, and several superb 2 shotters where the line off the tee is crucial. The bunkering is fairly sparse but picturesque. I played in November, and was blown away by the aesthetics of the course - it must be so beautiful when the heather is out in flower.
Ran has done a Course review on it, and Doak is very complimentary on the course in the Confidential Guide.
I can't wait to go back next spring or summer - it is a really special course and club
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I don't really have much to add to previous comments. However, last Monday saw my debut at a GCA outing and I couldn't have chosen a better venue than Woking. There was more room off the tee than I expected, the possibility of some sort of recovery if you strayed off line and the greens are exceptional (13, 15 and 17 being of particular note).
All-in-all an unpretentious club that is keenly aware of its history. However it's not afraid to make changes to the course to add more interest and challenge (to the club golfer) without resorting to artificial trickery.
I can't wait to go back (hopefully when there is less frost) and is now near the top of my 'course for life' list.
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Added to http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/England (http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/England)
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I loved Woking when I played it in September. They have undertaken a hefty program of shrub clearing from under the trees and reinstatement of the heather, especially around the bunkers. Neither of these projects is yet complete. Those bunkers to the right of 6 are still a work in progress.
I don't agree with the rerouting that Sean suggests although 14 is definitely the natural round closer. Tom suggesting that slow play would become an issue starting with a short par-5 and par-3 can't hold any sway though as the current routing starts with a driveable par-4 followed by a par-3... Anyway, the club holds a 2-ball only policy specifically to avoid slow play.
As for the bunker on 3, when I played there, that bunker had rough cut to the right of it where it seemed blindingly obvious that it should have been cut as fairway thus creating a natural kick-in off the bank.
I also don't agree with Sean that the front-9 is considerably better than the back. If I had to choose one or other, I'd go for the back because for me it provides the more interesting approach shots and green complexes. There are some really original wild undulations on 12, 13, 15 and 18 greens and I particularly liked the approaches to 11, 12, 13, 14 and 17.
Sean, I wonder if you would be in agreement with me that they could fill in all 3 greenside bunkers on 12 (making the entire hole bunkerless) and the hole would perhaps be even better than it is now? - a great natural green site.
Anyway, those are my quick thoughts. I adored Woking. It is a course I think of often.
Ally
I have thunk on it for a year now and I think you are right with one exception. There is a bit of a funnel on the green running down to one of the bunkers (the centre one?). I would keep this bunker for the odd loose putt if only for story telling fodder.
I have also thought about starting on #15 some more and for all the reasons you cite, I like the idea! Most of all, these are two good 3 shotters, but they seem a bit of a slog back to back - its tough to pull off the back to back 3 shotter successfully.
Ciao
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I loved Woking when I played it in September. They have undertaken a hefty program of shrub clearing from under the trees and reinstatement of the heather, especially around the bunkers. Neither of these projects is yet complete. Those bunkers to the right of 6 are still a work in progress.
I don't agree with the rerouting that Sean suggests although 14 is definitely the natural round closer. Tom suggesting that slow play would become an issue starting with a short par-5 and par-3 can't hold any sway though as the current routing starts with a driveable par-4 followed by a par-3... Anyway, the club holds a 2-ball only policy specifically to avoid slow play.
As for the bunker on 3, when I played there, that bunker had rough cut to the right of it where it seemed blindingly obvious that it should have been cut as fairway thus creating a natural kick-in off the bank.
I also don't agree with Sean that the front-9 is considerably better than the back. If I had to choose one or other, I'd go for the back because for me it provides the more interesting approach shots and green complexes. There are some really original wild undulations on 12, 13, 15 and 18 greens and I particularly liked the approaches to 11, 12, 13, 14 and 17.
Sean, I wonder if you would be in agreement with me that they could fill in all 3 greenside bunkers on 12 (making the entire hole bunkerless) and the hole would perhaps be even better than it is now? - a great natural green site.
Anyway, those are my quick thoughts. I adored Woking. It is a course I think of often.
Ally
I have thunk on it for a year now and I think you are right with on exception. There is a bit of a funnel on the green running down to one of the bunkers (the centre one?). I would keep this bunker for the odd loose putt if only for story telling fodder.
I have also thought about starting on #15 some more and for all the reasons you cite, I like the idea! Most of all, these are two good 3 shotters, but they seem a bit of a slog back to back - its tough to pull off the back to back 3 shotter successfully.
Ciao
We don't need to get rid of all three bunkers I guess Sean... Just the one on the left - it would allow a running shot to feed round.
There are a few reasons that I wouldn't start on 15... Firstly, the flow... Finishing up on 18 (the proposed 4th) and having to walk right round in front of the clubhouse to play the 5th... (Is there a better 1st tee in golf?... Maybe Lahinch)... I also like the idea of feeling back near the clubhouse after 14 (for matchplay or even a short evening round)... Although it's a toss-up really - I'd have to concede that 12,13,14 would make three great finishing holes...
I'm with you on the 9th as one of my least favourite holes... people are talking about the approach and it looks good on photos but I just think it's the detail of the hole that lets it down... It feels much less Heathland in character, the Green may be placed well but the actual Green Complex is a bit of a letdown and I agree with you that there are few options to the way you play the hole (although I do quite like the reverse camber fairway)... I'm not going on much experience here though - will be back in May to have a further look...
The changes to 6 look very good... Along with the new back tee (11 tee could play as a back tee for 6 here... wonder if that has been considered?) and the reshaped bunkers, this will be one of the strongest on the course...
I do love Woking...
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Woking is never far from thoughts when my thoughts are about golf. I came across a few ditties today that I was hoping someone may help me with. While casually reading a few old books this am I was stunned to discover the following:
1. There used to be heather between the creek and the green on #6.
2. There used to be a bunker in the green on #7.
3. #17 used to have more than one bunker "eating into the green".
Does anyone have photos/info of these Woking Wonders?
Ciao
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...
Ciao
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Sean -
I had forgotten how good this old thread was. I have some info on a couple of your questions.
- People at Woking told me last spring that there was once a bunker "in" the 11th green that was removed sometime after WWII. (Is it possible that George Thomas was familiar with Woking?) I don't have any information on the 7th.
- As for 17, Low's own account is that he removed an old Tom Dunn cop bunker well short of the green and dug two new "pits" (Darwin's word), putting one on the left side of the landing area and the other directly into the right side of the green platfrom. Both caused a big stir. Low has a wonderful passage about member complaints in Concerning Golf. As you note, MacK. described the greenside bunker as "eating into" the green. I believe both were nicknamed the "Johnny Low" bunkers at the time. Along with the c/l bunkers at the 4th and a couple of other "pits" eating into greens as at the 2nd and the 3rd, there was a lot of controversial stuff going on at Woking circa 1902.
Bob
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Sean -
I had forgotten how good this old thread was. I have some info on a couple of your questions.
- People at Woking told me last spring that there was once a bunker "in" the 11th green that was removed sometime after WWII. (Is it possible that George Thomas was familiar with Woking?) I don't have any information on the 7th.
- As for 17, Low's own account is that he removed an old Tom Dunn cop bunker well short of the green and dug two new "pits" (Darwin's word), putting one on the left side of the landing area and the other directly into the right side of the green platfrom. Both caused a big stir. Low has a wonderful passage about member complaints in Concerning Golf. As you note, MacK. described the greenside bunker as "eating into" the green. I believe both were nicknamed the "Johnny Low" bunkers at the time. Along with the c/l bunkers at the 4th and a couple of other "pits" eating into greens as at the 2nd and the 3rd, there was a lot of controversial stuff going on at Woking circa 1902.
Bob
Bob
That is interesting what you say about the 11th having an interior green bunker. It would then seem strange to have two greens with interior bunkers. I wish I could recall where I read Woking had an interior green bunker on #11. I don't know the history of the routing very well, but I don't think #s 1-7 have changed.
Given that the 17th runs away from the fairway perhaps a crossing bunker well short of the green was a mistake to remove - in any case it sounds much more imaginative than flanking bunkers.
What did you think of Woking?
Ciao
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Finally made it back to Woking! While I am still hugely impressed with the course, I must say a few things were bothersome. First and foremost, the temporary 16th green. While most of the course drains fairly well, the 16th suffers. There has not been much rain so this must be a chronic issue which the club should properly address - even if it means rebuilding the green. 2nd, I think the work on #6 doesn't go nearly far enough. The green should be extended down to the water, front left. I was hoping this would be done and was greatly disappointed to see bunker work as the main work done. Finally, like #6, #12 green needs to be extended front left to bring the bunkers properly in play. Its strange to see a large apron there rather than putting surface. I also dislike the trees down the right leading to the green. For sure my wish list is rather expensive, but its details like this which make an old-fashion course like Woking special.
Enough of the rabble talk! I still really like the course a ton so check out the updated pix!
Previous Stops on The Tour:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html Huntercombe
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50427.0.html Berkhamsted
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46538.0.html Coxmoor
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.0.html Temple
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html Little Aston
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html Beau Desert
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html Notts
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50088.0.html The Old Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50086.0.html The New Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50078.0.html The Castle Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html Kington
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37526.0.html Harborne
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html Worcester G&CC
Next Scheduled Stop - Saunton East & West.
Ciao
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I had forgotten this thread. Great to revisit. I must get back to Woking.
Bob
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Great day Sean - looking forward to next year already - feel a pull towards Worplesdon!
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Sean,
Thanks for organising the trip to Woking last week. I took a bunch of photos but as you’ve done a pretty good tour already, I’ll just add a few here:
The view from the entrance road is across the small lake which forms a hazard to the right of the final green.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00375.jpg)
I actually quite liked the first hole, short enough to have a go at the green if you think you are up to it with your first shot of the day, but you must take on a couple of bunkers just off the direct line to the green. We had quite a wind the day we played ::) but I imagine a 4 or 5 iron off the tee usually would do the trick, and its certainly a big enough target.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00381.jpg)
But then the short pitch is to a small green that all slopes away and with a big drop off behind, certainly isn’t easy. Seen here from the right hand side.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00383.jpg)
The 4th through to the 7th or 8th sits in a pretty flat area, bounded in on one side by the tall railway embankment and the ridge that runs from the 2nd hole round to the 9th on the other side. This whole area, though containing some very good golf, did feel a bit dull to me, with the setting feeling more parkland than heathland for some reason. However, to get around this dull nature there is certainly some interesting architectural features and it starts with the 4th hole that Sean describes so well in the opening post.
Here is the drive, with the option of going right or left of the central fairway bunkers. From the forward tees used in winter, flying those central bunkers is also an option and the right hand route doesn’t look as narrow from here
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00397.jpg)
If you have a go at carrying the central bunker you will find its actually a bit of a Principals Nose, with another hidden behind
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00398.jpg)
If you’ve gone on the safer left line, this is your view. The bunker is really in play and everything slopes away from you
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00399.jpg)
Or from the braver right hand line, a simple pitch to the green
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00400.jpg)
And finally a view from behind. What you cant see from these photos are a couple of sneaky bunkers right of the green between the green and OOB fence.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00401.jpg)
Here is the drive on the ninth. From this forward tee, you cant hit a long straight drive, and will either need to hit a big draw, or fly the pine trees to the left. You can just see the fairway climbing steeply to the left through the trees.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00415.jpg)
The view from behind the green shows how uphill the shot is and also the extent of the dogleg
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00419.jpg)
Many of the greens, have some really cool internal contours. 12 and 13 are two of the better examples. Here is the 12th from just past those cross bunkers
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00431.jpg)
Here is the 13th from behind (not sure if it shows the valley through the green as good as Ran’s old photo?) You can see the mound that’s short left of the approach quite obviously here.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00437.jpg)
I didn’t mind the back to back par 5s. The 15th has a large area of heather mounds to be avoided on the left of your layup (http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00447.jpg)
16th is a picturesque par 3 but the area around the green really doesn’t feel heathland like under foot and the soft rather than springy nature of the turf probably explains why it was a temporary green the day we played?
18 is a great short par 4 to finish. Its not clear on the tee how much the lake can come into play if you are just a little too long and right, but the right hand side probably gives an easier pitch to another excellently sloped green
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2011%2012%20Woking/DSC00459.jpg)
Thanks again Sean! I’ve managed in the past few years to get to see quite a few of the London heathland courses, though I’d still really like to get to St Georges Hill and the two Sunningdale courses. Maybe this year at some point?
Cheers,
James
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James -
Good job with the photos. I agree with you about the 1st. 1. A wonderful starting hole. It is also a great half par hole that presents a number of interesting playing choices. Perhaps all that comes too early in the round for some?
Bob
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Good job with the photos. I agree with you about the 1st. 1. A wonderful starting hole. It is also a great half par hole that presents a number of interesting playing choices. Perhaps all that comes too early in the round for some?
Perfect start to a match play round.
Nice pics, James.
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I had forgotten this thread. Great to revisit. I must get back to Woking.
Bob
Bob
Your Get The Low Down piece reminded me of this thread. No updates, but jeepers, Woking may be the "perfect" design.
Ciao
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Well, now there is an update. It was interesting to see the course hard on the heels of a few gooduns in the US...Woking is every bit of their calibre.
I am not sure about the 16th...likely a bit too severe given the size of the green. I see there are issues with maintaining a knob in the green...There are some tree issues as well, nothing terribly serious, but worth tackling if woking wants to keep progressing the improvements. Anyway, see the updated tour on page 1...its always a treat to play Woking.
Ciao
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I thought folks would like to know that Woking is tackling the issue of their wet greens. I think 7 greens had drainage work already this fall and perhaps one more will get the treatment. I suspect that next year the other holes will be tackled. As wet greens was my number one gripe about Woking...this is good news.
Ciao
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Good to hear Sean,
do you know what exact work they are doing to tackle this problem?
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Good to hear Sean,
do you know what exact work they are doing to tackle this problem?
I am not certain, but I think new underground pipes and probably a bit of a different subsoil mix.
Ciao
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Thanks for the reply Sean. So they are improving the drainage on the existing greens not doing a rebuild of the greens. Nice to see a bigger club keeping their greens intact for once.
Jon
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Thanks for the reply Sean. So they are improving the drainage on the existing greens not doing a rebuild of the greens. Nice to see a bigger club keeping their greens intact for once.
Jon
Si...no changes to contours or size...simply trying to improve drainage. I wonder if the drainage performance of the new green (16) spurred the club to get off their back pockets?
Ciao
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I knew you'd be happy about this Sean!
It has been in the pipeline, no pun intended...well slightly, for quite a while as like most clubs they know the course doesn't drain as well as they would like. They've looked into fairway drainage in a number of areas too but unfortunately cost has probably been prohibitive at times as it is at most places. I think the last few years took them to breaking point and with West Hill's greens almost failing the other year they decided to bite the bullet.
Interestingly the new 16th green was built without a gravel carpet as far as I can remember, just piped drainage in the subsoil and rootzone on top.
The new drainage installed on the other greens is just primary piped drainage.
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I knew you'd be happy about this Sean!
Music to me ears!
Ciao
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Tom,
it would seem to me to be the smart thing that they have done in not installing a gravel layer because to have done that would have altered the playing character of the sward so much as to have made the green completely different when compared to the rest of the courses greens.
As for the fairway drainage it can be expensive if you are going for a modern style system where the drains are only put in at a depth of 18" to 24" inches thus requiring smaller distances between the drains and regular cleaning to prevent silting up. However these systems are designed to be not only expensive but also to fail as no one cleans their drains.
Much better is to put in fewer drains at a greater depth ideally 60" to 72". Much cheaper, very effective and they have a much longer life span.
Jon
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Jon is correct in his hypothesis that the green was done that way to match the others. Course manager Jon Day grew the turf used on the new 16th in his turf nursery from cores taken from the existing greens too, so that the grass mix would be the same as the old greens too.
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Tom,
it would seem to me to be the smart thing that they have done in not installing a gravel layer because to have done that would have altered the playing character of the sward so much as to have made the green completely different when compared to the rest of the courses greens.
As for the fairway drainage it can be expensive if you are going for a modern style system where the drains are only put in at a depth of 18" to 24" inches thus requiring smaller distances between the drains and regular cleaning to prevent silting up. However these systems are designed to be not only expensive but also to fail as no one cleans their drains.
Much better is to put in fewer drains at a greater depth ideally 60" to 72". Much cheaper, very effective and they have a much longer life span.
Jon
Jon,
It depends vastly on whether you are tackling surface or ground water drainage conditions, topography, soil conditions, outfall options. The deeper drains you mention are great for ground water but if you are putting them at a bigger spacing you are asking the water to travel further across the surface to get to them so if the issue is the water getting to the ground in the first place they won't be as effective. It's horses for courses.
Adam,
We are seeing more and more courses go down the route of using cores to re-build greens and it has worked well.
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Tom,
I have heard this argument from others and it is fundamentally flawed. For it to be correct it would mean the soil profile is permanently saturated which is clearly not the case in most instances. If your profile is not saturated then all water has the same distance to travel down to get away from the surface. If you keep the deep profile drained this has a knock on effect of improving the drainage of the profile closer to the surface. Through regular aerating (slitting, tining, mole drainage,....) you make it possible for the surface area to drain quicker. Deep drains will have a big effect on improving the general drainage and should there be points that are locally wet these are easily picked up with a dedicated spur. Remember it is to solve a general drainage problem in the winter not flash flooding which is what blanket drainage is for.
Expensive blanket drainage has been developed for sports fields which are a flattish and small area which golf course are not. Yes it does work but it is certainly an expensive sledge hammer to take to this sort of nut.
Jon
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Jon,
Much of what you say is true but I have a feeling we are going to have to agree to disagree on a few things and I don't want ruin a good thread so I'll try to be brief.
The soil profile doesn't have to be permanently saturated for water to run across the surface, you just need more water trying to get into the soil than the soil has capacity to move through it's profile at any one time. When it rains on most soil this happens.
What I refer to as 'surface drainage' isn't just water moving across the surface but the idea of trying to remove water from the surface as quickly as possible. Reducing the distance for water to travel to find the nearest drain is more effective at this than deeper drains. They are shallower (600mm minimum for fairways, 500mm min for greens is common) as at smaller spacing they don't need to be as deep to have the same effect that the deeper drains have on the overall water table and it saves abit of money. You get the effect of the deeper drains with added effect of removing the water quickly. Yes it is more expensive but there are added benefits. Deeper drains that then need to be added to in order to catch particular areas can end up costing as much if repeat work is required and awkward spurs and lines are needed.
But again it's 'horses for courses', every site is different.
The idea that they are "designed to fail" is pretty ridiculous. The stone will last just as long in a shallow drain as a deeper drain but as you clearly know all drainage is only as good as it's maintenance. If there is too much compaction and the water can't get to them that's when they will fail.
You probably know all of this but for those that don't this article is a good basic guide;
https://www.pitchcare.com/magazine/land-drainage-soil-water-and.html
Right back to Woking....
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Jon,
What I refer to as 'surface drainage' isn't just water moving across the surface but the idea of trying to remove water from the surface as quickly as possible. Reducing the distance for water to travel to find the nearest drain is more effective at this than deeper drains. They are shallower (600mm minimum for fairways, 500mm min for greens is common) as at smaller spacing they don't need to be as deep to have the same effect that the deeper drains have on the overall water table and it saves abit of money. You get the effect of the deeper drains with added effect of removing the water quickly. Yes it is more expensive but there are added benefits. Deeper drains that then need to be added to in order to catch particular areas can end up costing as much if repeat work is required and awkward spurs and lines are needed.
Tom,
you are correct and we should not hi-jack this thread. I will keep it brief therefore and just point out that you contradict yourself which kind of sums up the position you are taking.
Nuff said me thinks.
Jon
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Jon,
What I refer to as 'surface drainage' isn't just water moving across the surface but the idea of trying to remove water from the surface as quickly as possible. Reducing the distance for water to travel to find the nearest drain is more effective at this than deeper drains. They are shallower (600mm minimum for fairways, 500mm min for greens is common) as at smaller spacing they don't need to be as deep to have the same effect that the deeper drains have on the overall water table and it saves abit of money. You get the effect of the deeper drains with added effect of removing the water quickly. Yes it is more expensive but there are added benefits. Deeper drains that then need to be added to in order to catch particular areas can end up costing as much if repeat work is required and awkward spurs and lines are needed.
Tom,
you are correct and we should not hi-jack this thread. I will keep it brief therefore and just point out that you contradict yourself which kind of sums up the position you are taking.
Nuff said me thinks.
Jon
It saves money on having all the closer spaced drains being so deep.
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Tom,
nobody would put deep drains so close together. I certainly never suggested it but that you believe this baffles me somewhat.
Deep drainage drains the profile at a deeper depth to solve long term drainage problems. Any issues higher up are dealt with through slitting, tinning, mole drainage and dedicated spurs which maybe be installed at a shallower depth if prefered. Deep drainge allows the profile to absorb significantly more moisture before it becomes saturated in comparrison to shallow drainage.
Shallow drainage drains the top soil profile but the deeper profile remains saturated. My understanding is that Woking had their problems in the winter and so deep drains would better address this issue.
Jon
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I had a chance to play Woking this past weekend. I must say the 11 newly laid greens are working a treat. There is a very noticeable difference in quality. The club is currently working on the 15th green. I think the plan is to complete the greens sometime early next year.
However, I am still not convinced by the newish 16th.
Since the club has the bit in their teeth I think now is time to attack the trees. Trees don't really block play, but the loss of heather since I first started playing Woking is alarming.
One might think that in its current state Woking is a has been. Not so, this is clearly a great course now that the greens are allowed to shine. I fully expect the course to go from strength strength from this year on. See the updated tour.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html
Ciao
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S,
What does 11 newly laid greens mean? They Re grassed them with better variety?
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Woking has a newish secretary, Richard Pennell, who is well known in this parish, and a brand new course manager, Andy Ewence, fresh from overseeing a major renovation at the Buckinghamshire course in Denham. Both very good people; the course and club are in safe hands.
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S,
What does 11 newly laid greens mean? They Re grassed them with better variety?
Ben
Drainage is the main reason for the work. I don't know if there is also a different strain of grass. It is impossible to tell from playing the course, but the greens seem to have the same contours as previously. I am also told that hand cutting greens is the new regime.
Ciao
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That's a great updated tour Sean. I have played it just the once and would long to go back if funds will allow.
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Sean - great to see you again, and I also had the pleasure of Tony Muldoon's presence last week! It was like old times!
The drainage work in the greens has retained the wonderful, existing contours (all via laser levels) and the existing turf. The contractor just lifts the turf in strips, installs the drainage, compacts the infill by hand and re-lays the turf. They have done a fantastic job! The club did 11 greens plus the putting green last winter; the remaining 6 (the new 16th was built with drainage) will be done by the end of August, enabling Andy and his team to show off this wonderful set of greens throughout the year.
Heather regeneration is a priority - the club are 2/5ths of the way through a 5 year plan to manage woodland and encourage heather - the results of the first 2 winters' work are already bearing fruit but plenty more to do.
Richard
I had a chance to play Woking this past weekend. I must say the 11 newly laid greens are working a treat. There is a very noticeable difference in quality. The club is currently working on the 15th green. I think the plan is to complete the greens sometime early next year.
However, I am still not convinced by the newish 16th.
Since the club has the bit in their teeth I think now is time to attack the trees. Trees don't really block play, but the loss of heather since I first started playing Woking is alarming.
One might think that in its current state Woking is a has been. Not so, this is clearly a great course now that the greens are allowed to shine. I fully expect the course to go from strength strength from this year on. See the updated tour.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html)
Ciao
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Richard
Yes, it was good to see you again as well. I hadn't realized the greens would all be replaced by the end August. Will it be one green at a time at rate of over one green per week?
Ciao
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That's the plan, depending on the weather!
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Bumping thread to highlight nicely produced video/film: The Story of Woking Golf Club https://cookiejargolf.com/story-of-a-golf-club-woking-golf-club/ (https://cookiejargolf.com/story-of-a-golf-club-woking-golf-club/)
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Bumping thread to highlight nicely produced video/film: The Story of Woking Golf Club https://cookiejargolf.com/story-of-a-golf-club-woking-golf-club/ (https://cookiejargolf.com/story-of-a-golf-club-woking-golf-club/)
Thanks Mike.
Ciao
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Sean, how would you compare Woking to its two neighbors West Hill and Worplesdon?
I have not played Worplesdon, but I was fortunate to play both Woking and West Hill on a perfect day in September 2019. I had high expectations going into Woking and was not disappointed. I think Woking is the course I most want to play again. With respect to West Hill, I had no expectations because I didn’t know much about it. But I was absolutely blown away by the quality of the holes and the setting. I think it has some strengths over Woking, particularly the finishing hole.
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West Hill is attractive and getting moreso with tree removal. Two aspects bother me. I don't like the use of water. Essentially the water cuts dead across fairways. Second, the second hole after the hut (14?) is dreadful.
No fault of West Hill, but Woking's greens are far more interesting.
For me Woking is top of the 3Ws. Small gap to Worpy. Larger gap to West Hill. Worpy is the course that loses out in the group because it is great and most folks don't get that.
Ciao
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I agree with Sean's order but would just add that West Hill has for as long as I have known the courses (ten years or so) had the best stand of heather, which has made it especially attractive. In the last three years, under Richard Pennell of this parish, Woking has got very serious about tree removal and heather regeneration (they cleared a large area of trees between holes two and eleven last winter).
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I do think Woking has a superior set of greens. They are excellent.
I don’t recall thinking any holes at West Hill were poor. They were removing trees the day I was there and the views of the property were very good. While I preferred Woking, I did come away thinking West Hill was very fun. I would happily play either and never complain.
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Its hard to imagine I started this tour almost 14 years ago. I was lucky enough to see Woking again a few weeks ago. The club has spent a fair amount of money to install green drainage. In addition to the drainage, practically every green has been enlarged, many bunkers have been reshaped, some short grass area around greens are new and more trees have been removed. The overall result is paying dividends with a firmer golf course. If folks haven't been to Woking in a while, make the effort!
See the updated tour
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html)
Ciao
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I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.
It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.
I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.
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I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.
It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.
I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.
Woking really is turning a few corners. Tell the club to turn another corner and expand 6 green out to the water.
Ciao
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I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.
It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.
I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.
Woking really is turning a few corners. Tell the club to turn another corner and expand 6 green out to the water.
Ciao
There has been a lot of green expansion -- I particularly noticed it at the rear of the fifth. The greens, always large, are huge now. The seventeenth has been expanded too, though we spent several minutes discussing just how much it would have to grow or move to make the famous 'Johnny Low' bunker the fearsome in-green hazard of which Low writes. The stream has been remodelled (again) and now sports heather on the green side bank. It looks good, imo, but it's not expanding the green to the water.
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The other news from Woking that will interest GCAers is that Richard Pennell, sometimes of this parish, has resigned his post at GM.
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I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.
It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.
I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.
Woking really is turning a few corners. Tell the club to turn another corner and expand 6 green out to the water.
Ciao
There has been a lot of green expansion -- I particularly noticed it at the rear of the fifth. The greens, always large, are huge now. The seventeenth has been expanded too, though we spent several minutes discussing just how much it would have to grow or move to make the famous 'Johnny Low' bunker the fearsome in-green hazard of which Low writes. The stream has been remodelled (again) and now sports heather on the green side bank. It looks good, imo, but it's not expanding the green to the water.
The loss of the original J Low bunker on 17 is lamentable. Wouldn't the green have to spread in front of 18 tee to make that scheme work properly? Was 18 always a dogleg right or was the tee to the left of 17 green at some point? And if it was, is it worth sacrificing the dogleg on 18 to restore 17 green?
Ciao
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I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.
It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.
I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.
Woking really is turning a few corners. Tell the club to turn another corner and expand 6 green out to the water.
Ciao
There has been a lot of green expansion -- I particularly noticed it at the rear of the fifth. The greens, always large, are huge now. The seventeenth has been expanded too, though we spent several minutes discussing just how much it would have to grow or move to make the famous 'Johnny Low' bunker the fearsome in-green hazard of which Low writes. The stream has been remodelled (again) and now sports heather on the green side bank. It looks good, imo, but it's not expanding the green to the water.
The loss of the original J Low bunker on 17 is lamentable. Wouldn't the green have to spread in front of 18 tee to make that scheme work properly? Was 18 always a dogleg right or was the tee to the left of 17 green at some point? And if it was, is it worth sacrificing the dogleg on 18 to restore 17 green?
Ciao
The eighteenth tee used to be left of the green.
The problem with the seventeenth is that nobody knows exactly what it used to look like. I have spent hours and hours looking for a historic photo of the green and never found one.
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I played at Woking today, with course manager Andy Ewence and consulting architect Tim Lobb. It was the first time I had been in perhaps four years, so I hadn't seen most of the work Sean references -- large scale tree removal, heather regeneration and green expansion.
It's a triumph, and the work that is starting this winter is going to make it more exciting still -- this is in competition with what is currently underway at Addington as the best news in British golf.
I'm going to write it up for January's GCA so can't share too much here. Suffice to say there's going to be a lot of shouts of 'TIMBER' at Woking this winter.
Woking really is turning a few corners. Tell the club to turn another corner and expand 6 green out to the water.
Ciao
There has been a lot of green expansion -- I particularly noticed it at the rear of the fifth. The greens, always large, are huge now. The seventeenth has been expanded too, though we spent several minutes discussing just how much it would have to grow or move to make the famous 'Johnny Low' bunker the fearsome in-green hazard of which Low writes. The stream has been remodelled (again) and now sports heather on the green side bank. It looks good, imo, but it's not expanding the green to the water.
The loss of the original J Low bunker on 17 is lamentable. Wouldn't the green have to spread in front of 18 tee to make that scheme work properly? Was 18 always a dogleg right or was the tee to the left of 17 green at some point? And if it was, is it worth sacrificing the dogleg on 18 to restore 17 green?
Ciao
The eighteenth tee used to be left of the green.
The problem with the seventeenth is that nobody knows exactly what it used to look like. I have spent hours and hours looking for a historic photo of the green and never found one.
I thought 18 tee was left of 17 green.
It would be hard to go back to a straight 18th rather than the cool dogleg around the heather and pond.
Ciao