Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on November 25, 2007, 05:11:23 PM
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Huntercombe, along with Willie Park Jr’s other ground breaking masterpiece, Sunningdale, opened in 1901 (incidentally his Notts design also opened in 1901) and helped spark a revolution in inland golf design. Walter Travis commented “I consider that Huntercombe is easily the best laid course that I have ever played over anywhere”. Harold Hilton agreed, “In links architecture his two great creations have been Sunningdale and Huntercombe and of the two I am distinctly inclined to look upon Huntercombe as the greater effort of the two”. Bernard Darwin was greatly impressed with the course and wrote “Although Huntercombe is still a comparatively young course, there is an agreeable quality about the golf that, for want of a better word, may be called, very respectfully, old-fashioned. At any rate, the golf of Huntercombe has a very engaging character of its own; it is good without being too strenuous for the reasonably light-hearted player. Yet this cheerful person must not imagine the disaster cannot overtake him.”
See the link for the full Golf Magazine article that Travis wrote concerning his 1901 trip to Britain.
https://walterjtravissociety.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/1901-impressions-of-british-golf-from-golf-mag118.pdf (https://walterjtravissociety.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/1901-impressions-of-british-golf-from-golf-mag118.pdf)
Like most early 20th century designs, trees have invaded what was originally open land, though Park Jr would certainly recognize much of his handiwork if he were to walk the course today. As one would expect from an older course which has had few revisions, Huntercombe is on the short side at approximately 6300 yards. However, originally the course was much longer; several holes have lost yardage (according to old scorecards and maps), but in some cases the reasons for the loss of yardage aren't clear. It should be mentioned that Sunningdale's Old Course was also considered to be very long. Indeed, Bernard Darwin thought the introduction of the Haskell was a great benefit to the course. Whatever the reasons for the yardage changes, they seem to have happened quite early in the evolution of Huntercombe and that it is likely Park Jr carried out the work.
1946 Aerial
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Huntercombe stands nearly 700 feet above sea level, one of the highest points in the Chilterns and it is easy to imagine how wind would have played a significant role in stiffening the challenge. The 13 remaining bunkers are in the main placed to offer the golfer a choice of playing heroically or safely. In addition to bunkers there are hollows dotted about the course which greatly effect the decision making of golfers. Although, some of these hollows originally contained sand. Not unusually, a road, The Ridgeway, one of the oldest roadways in Europe, divides the course. Unfortunately, the increase in traffic in recent years has precipitated the club to alter the 6th by planting trees down the right and filling in one of the hollows on the left side of the fairway.
Despite the critical success of the design, due to financial difficulties caused by the failure of the planned real estate development, Park lost a substantial amount of money. However, high profile work continued to come Park’s way. His talents were further utilized for many more marquee designs; amongst which were Formby, West Hill and Worplesdon. With the exception of the loss of a handful of key bunkers, ironically, the early financial difficulties Huntercombe suffered may be the very reason the course is fairly well preserved. Unlike Sunningdale, Huntercombe is just far enough removed from London to have effectively become an historical footnote in golf architecture. Despite two holes which are All England candidates (#s 2 & 3), Huntercombe fails to make any modern best of lists. More is the pity because Huntercombe exemplifies concepts which were previously the domain of links golf. Variety, use of natural and man made landforms and strategic merit are features which made the course justly famous over 100 years ago and continue to delight members and visitors alike today.
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When the 1st was originally designed (as the 6th) the tee was meant to be where the shoe cleaner is on the far side of the clubhouse. When looking at the green this tee location makes sense as play would have been between hollows to a green moving in a reverse wave as seen on other holes at Huntercombe. Alas, at the time Park didn't own the land (perhaps he thought it was included in the purchase) which now contains the house and putting green. Today the hole is still very good if quite a bit shorter and playing over a hollow. Below is Mr Sheehy and the tricky green running away from play.
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#2!! Originally the depression and mounding was the left boundary of the hole until the club rented and eventually purchased the left side of fairway corridor. This may not be an original green as it may be the case that the green was much further down the hill, well behind the 3rd tee. Although, the gulley feeding into the hard front to back sloping green is a stroke of genius.
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#3!! Boony on the left. I noticed the green was recently extended when I played in 2024.
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4th!
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There is an area of short grass between the hollow and left side of the green which I reckon should be part of the putting surface.
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It isn't until the 5th that we come across a bunker! This hole was also part of the yardage contraction. The club has recently built a tee a bit further behind the main tee to recapture some of the original length. Half the holes on the course are bereft of sand and only one hole has more than two bunkers. While the hollows are important features, many of the lost centreline bunkers were fairly large and would have made for a more thrilling experience than what is in the ground today. Incidentally, the map also shows how trees have encroached on the property. See the link to the excellent site created by Mark Bourgeois.
http://golfcoursehistories.com/HC.html (http://golfcoursehistories.com/HC.html)
We can see the narrowing effect which the trees on the right create for the 6th. For the most part this is a necessary evil to protect the road flanking the hole. IMO, the road would be better protected if the hole were turned into a dogleg right. This would necessitate tree removal up the left and at least a partial shared fairway with the 18th.
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The hollows were once filled with sand.
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The 7th is a mess on the tee with trees pointlessly encroaching and casting shadows from the left. Also, behind the green half the trees could be cleared out to increase sunlight. For all the tree problems, this is a good longish short hole.
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Extending the green forward 15 yards between the mounds would add quite a bit of zest to this hole.
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One of Huntercombe's few long, testing 4s, the 8th is marked for its creative two-tier green which rises in a rounded fashion rather than the abrupt levels often seen. It is thought Park Jr modelled this hole after Musselburgh's famous Pandy (Pandemonium Bunker) hole; which he would have known very well as it was Park Jr's home green. Orginally there was a large cross bunker to be carried in front of the tee, presumably this was the Pandy. Just shy of the green is a shallow hollow which once housed two centreline bunkers.
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The back tier not long after opening.
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9 is a canny, shortish two-shotter legging hard left. Very reminiscent of Simpson, a large hollow is shy of the green.
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The 10th is yet another fine par 3 with a sole fronting bunker and a runaway green for defense. The cross bunkers on the 11th come into play for bigger hitters, but this hole is really more about accuracy.
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12 is a excellent par 4 whose green is protected much like the 10th with a lone centreline bunker. This photo of the 13th is a good representation of the many seamless fairway to green transitions which make depth perception difficult to calculate.
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The ever-present hollows are often the main talking point of the Willie Park Jr's design, but it is the compelling greens which are the real star of the show. Due to the greens being at grade level (except for 17!) it is beyond my powers to capture the brilliant subtleties.
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The 14th would have been a very difficult starting hole when William Morris was the owner of Huntercombe. The old clubhouse was across the A 4130 (Oxford to Henley on Thames road) and is now a National Trust and shrine to William Morris.
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The house was replaced by the current house in 1963. Obviously, the new house necessitated a change in the hole numbering and it is at this time I think the current par 3 first was altered to make way for the house. In recent years, OOB stakes were placed along the right side of the 14th fairway to protect the house which is in range of flat bellies. Below is a photo when there weren't trees on the left!
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15 is a lovely par 3 played to a bowl green. The final par 5, #16 turns aggressively right along the property boundary.This hole has changed dramatically. The OoB has been moved well left and several hollows were built along the course boundary line sometime just prior Covid. The hole is now a clear dogleg right. Previously the ambitious players aimed where it is now OoB and hoped to skirt the centreline hollow. That hollow remains, but can no longer be seen from the tee...it is blocked out by the new hollows...which are very unforgiving.
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The dimunitive 17th, but its 266 yards is not the reason this hole stands out!
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An old photo of the waste area short of 18 green, when many of the hollows contained sand.
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Most will disagree with me, but I believe Huntercombe is a strong candidate for an English first tier course. The only drawback of the course is the over-abundance of trees which try their best to transform Huntercombe into a routine parkland course. Indeed, the presence of so many oaks is thought to be due to Lady Nuffield refusing to allow seedlings to be uprooted. In recent years there has been traction within the club to clear out some trees; the first and 17th being great examples of the tree work. There are still a ton of trees which can be removed, but despite the over-abundance of lumber I am immensely impressed that this fairly flat property manages to hold my attention for the entire round. Between front to back and a few crazy greens and the relationship between the hollows in the fairways and the slopes around the greens, there is a lot to ponder. Every hole has something about it which requires a bit of thought even if its an afterthought. 2024
There has been some suggestion that Willie Park Jr's Huntercombe design didn't have a great impact on the world of golf design. Yes, Huntercombe quickly became a backwater due to the financial failure of the project and eventual purchase of the property by Lord Nuffield. However, it can be no accident that within five years of the club's foundation that five would be well known architects became members. Stuart Paton was a member when he initiated the famous changes at Woking with J Low. CK Hutchison later became a well known figure in the business as a partner with Guy Campbell (was also an early member) and SV Hotchkin; incidentally, both Paton and Hutchison were among the first club captains. Hugh Alison was a long time partner of HS Colt and creator of many courses on his own in Japan and the US. JF Abercromby, creator and benevolent dictator of Addington would later join forces with A Croome, Fowler and T Simpson with Liphook being Croome's only solo effort. Indeed, HS Colt himself became a member in 1924! The direct and indirect links between these architects reads like a whos who of original inland strategic design! In later years Ken Cotton (partner with Frank Pennink and later Donald Steel) was a member and it is likely that he had some input when the new clubhouse was built. It is also known that CB Macdonald visited Huntercombe on 9 May 1906 as a guest of CK Hutchison. He signed his name and Garden City, USA, which is interesting for fans of W Travis.
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If one finds himself in the London/Oxford area strongly consider following in the footsteps of the famous lady magician and one-club golfer, Gloria Minoprio. She started her golfing career at Huntercombe by taking lessons from then professional Jim Morris. For anyone thinking of touring the inland courses of England I can think of few better places to start than Huntercombe. 2024
Ms Minoprio teeing off on Burnham & Berrow's 1st.
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See Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/huntercombe-golf-club/ (http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/huntercombe-golf-club/)
Ciao
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Sean, Huntercombe is won of those courses that I think about playing every time I get to England. Looks like I'll have to get it done the next time. Thanks, as always, for the pictures.
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Sean - The thing that struck me about Huntercombe is how almost the entire course could be replicated on just about any decent piece of property. There are so many unique features on the course that could be incorporated into a modern day endeavor... but, the features are not really site specific. Most of the ridges, hollows, and troughs could be recreated just about anywhere. It is an extremely interesting course and tons of fun. I think the course could be a model for how to create an interesting test of golf that will stand the test of time. Fantastic!
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Sean
yet again, my thanks for the pictures and commentary.
Micheal - that's a good point, about it being 'replicated'. If only they'd replicate the almost complete lack of bunkers too. I like bunkers well enough, but isn't it interesting how you don't seem to need/miss bunkers on courses that don't have bunkers?
Peter
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Great pics, Sean.
Just to get a better idea of what you mean, how big (for you) is England's 1st tier?
And does it include Kington? ;)
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Sean
I think it is incumbent on you and Philip to organise a mini-BUDA at Huntercombe, ideally in the early Autumn.
Conisder the ball in your court.
I agree fully with Mike on the apparent true minimalism of the course, and it reminds me a lot of the one Park Jr. course I know well in its understatement and economical use of what natural features there are on the property. Another big plus, of course, is the virtual absence of bunkers.
I also wonder as does Jason what you consider the English "top tier." I'll guess that Sandwich, Birkdale, Lytham, Rye, Hoylake would be included. wWho else?
Slainte
Rich
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I was wondering how you enjoyed your visit Sean. Glad you got some sunshine, albeit of the burr variety! I was there yesterday on a fine day and the course was playing well.
I agree with you re the tree on 3 which is really just a manky little bush. Less persuaded re the one on 5. Isn't that just analogous to some of the more cussed bunkers around the Old Course? You know they are there so you must miss them?
Hole 17 remains a great matchplay hole, coming where it does in the round - you think a 3 should be on, but so often end up with more. The little pitch ends up in a chunk into the front bunkers etc. You really have to make a decision about where to leave your drive - and then your heart is in your mouth executing the second, so I am not sure it deserves your censure!
The 8th remains a brute - I hit a fantastic drive yesterday which left me with a 6 iron second, which I hit pretty well, but landed half-way into the tier/bank - and walked away with a six. Grrrrrr!
Glad to that you have started to enjoy the 13th green!
I am sorry I wasn't able to join you - the steward told me that something like 100 people went through the course on Friday which is a huge amount for a wintry Friday!
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this is all a bit vague so excuse me while I ramble.
I read somewhere that the 8th at Huntercombe was based upon a green at Mussleburgh Old which I believe to be the 6th?
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I love Huntercombe. It was the first really good golf course I ever played and one I play more than others. However, I don't think it quite makes the top tier. Courses which I have played and which, in my book at least, are in a tier above Huntercombe include (in no specific order), Hoylake, Woodhall Spa, Ganton, Alwoodley, Hollinwell, Saunton, Burnham & Berrow, Silloth, both Berkshire courses and Swinley Forest.
Why does Huntercombe fall (just) short of that level? One or two week holes - Sean has previously drawn attention to the 5th, the 9th isn't that strong, 11 is a funny short par 4 and 18 is a slightly disappointing end to the round. On the other hand I like 17, though I've never played it well, 3 and 4 are great green complexes, 8 is as tough a hole as you'll play, particularly when the pin is (as it always seems to be) on that shallow top shelf. 15 is a fun par 3 green, where my 10 year old son had his first ever birdie on a proper course last year, 14 is a good strong par 4.
I agree with Rich, a GCA get together at Huntercombe next Autumn would be a great idea.
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I don't quite get Huntercombe - it's a nice course but I can't understand anyone saying it's a top tier course. I've probably played there 15-20 times, although this summer was the first time for 10 years or so. When I finally am able to play enough, as family and cricket commitments lessen, I will apply to be a member at Frilford Heath rather than Huntercombe. Logistically they are not much different - while I live 10 mins closer to Frilford, I work less than 10 mins from Huntercombe.
I find Huntercombe a bit too claustrophobic. Maybe it's just my erratic driving but I'm never very comfortable there. I would play both the Red and Green courses at Frilford over Huntercombe any day. Add the fact that, at Frilford, you can walk on as a 2 ball at 9am on a Saturday morning and be round in just over 3 hours then the question of where you would be a member is the archetypal 'no brainer'.
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Mark - I think you are wrong about 5 - a good hole, with or without the tree, with the difficulty lying in judging the distance of the second. It is very easy to three putt this green if you are any distance away. For the same reason, I think you are wrong about 9 which is a "sleeper", but more difficult than it looks. The green slopes away, and it has a great natural hazard in the form of the dip in front of the green which presents challenges, especially in summer when you can't fly the green with your approach. I agree re 11 - the weakest hole on the course, albeit i take 5 more often than I care!
Ed - each to his own (you are right re claustrophobia - the trees could certainly do with more cutting back) but what you describe re arriving at 9am on Saturday, without booking, and playing in three hours, is of course what all Huntercombe members enjoy and expect.
Sean - re 5 and 17. You are probably right that the waste-type rough bunkers on 5 are enough of an obstacle. The most competitive player in the club famously hates the tree!
Re 17 - the same player who is good rather than long-hitting always tries to drive the 17th green, in the belief that 20% of the time he will fluke it through the bunkers, but confidentt he other 80% of the time that he may get his birdie from the bunker. He beat me in a match by driving the 17th to birdie it!
To Rich's suggestion - I would be delighted to host such an event. If we get the timing right we might even get GMBF to turn up on his autumn trip!
In terms of where the course ranks - it does not have the same majesty as some other top sites that have been mentioned, because it is not an exceptional piece of land. Any maybe it lacks the memorable holes that are often said to warrant elevation to the first rank. Perhaps it is a bit like Simpson/Wethered's comment on Woking that while only the 2nd is world class, there is no course they would rather play.
From another angle: given that 16 of the holes are flat, WP Jr did a wonderful job of creating golfing interest which endures to this day. And the interest remains despite lack of length, few bunkers and no water.
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In terms of where the course ranks - it does not have the same majesty as some other top sites that have been mentioned, because it is not an exceptional piece of land. Any maybe it lacks the memorable holes that are often said to warrant elevation to the first rank. Perhaps it is a bit like Simpson/Wethered's comment on Woking that while only the 2nd is world class, there is no course they would rather play.
Philip
I am usually much more taken by interesting properties which can support entertaining golf without the obvious intervention of heavy handed archies. Huntercombe doesn't enjoy the advantage of varied terrain though the land is well drained. I am bewildered (honestly, liking a course like Huntercombe is not consistent with my usual favourites) as to how Huntercombe so successfully offers interesting golf hole after hole seemingly with few features (and these are man made and quite obviously so) which easily lend themselves to creative golf. In this way, I don't think I have ever experienced such a crafty course which is so varied despite the obvious drawbacks of the land. If I lived in the north or west area of The Smoke Huntercombe is certainly one of the clubs I would target to join.
Ciao
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I am bewildered (honestly, liking a course like Huntercombe is not consistent with my usual favourites) as to how Huntercombe so successfully offers interesting golf hole after hole seemingly with few features (and these are man made and quite obviously so) which easily lend themselves to creative golf. In this way, I don't think I have ever experienced such a crafty course which is so varied despite the obvious drawbacks of the land. If I lived in the north or west area of The Smoke Huntercombe is certainly one of the clubs I would target to join.
Amen. I came away from my day at Huntercombe with two impressions. One was there wasn't really much to it. Aside from the stirring view from the second tee it's in lovely but fairly unexceptional surroundings. The other takeaway was that I absolutely loved playing there and can't wait to return. Apparently, it doesn't take much in the way of flash or WOW to provide me my little golf game with all the challenge and variety I crave.
Like Mike Whitaker, it makes me wonder how other courses in at least as favorable a setting can be so boring. It sure doesn't seem be a course that can't be duplicated. Yet it was in the best 20 or so courses I've ever played. Fascinating question.
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I think one of the great skills of the Golden Age architects was to do a good or great job on fairly plain land. Huntercombe isn't a great bit of land but Park gets something out of every feature on it (putting 3 on the side of the hill to give that great green site, the 4th green, the 8th green, the fall away green on 13, 15 green). It think this is something that Colt, Mackenzie and Braid were also good at. Perhaps in an age where moving and shaping the landform is easier this is a less well developed skill.
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Tony I forgot to reply to your point - I think you are right about Willie Park jr getting the idea for the 8th at Huntercombe from Musselburgh. My initial feeling was that the green was so hard as to be gimicky, but now that I have grown up I value it for its eccentricity! With the pin on the top (as it is 95% of the time), it is a fiendishly difficult hole. Maybe 1 in 25 times you will get onto the top tier in two; maybe 1 in a dozen times you will two-putt from the bottom tier (and you have to hit two good shots to get there). If you miss the green or lay up, you will get up and down maybe 1 in 15 times. All in all, a tough par 4!
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I think one of the great skills of the Golden Age architects was to do a good or great job on fairly plain land. Huntercombe isn't a great bit of land but Park gets something out of every feature on it (putting 3 on the side of the hill to give that great green site, the 4th green, the 8th green, the fall away green on 13, 15 green). It think this is something that Colt, Mackenzie and Braid were also good at. Perhaps in an age where moving and shaping the landform is easier this is a less well developed skill.
Mark - I was under the impression that most of the ridges, gulleys, and depressions found on Huntercombe were man-made. Perhaps Philip could address this question.
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No, Kington falls a bit short of star status, but it is highly recommended none the less.
Sorry, Sean - just teasing a bit.... I know that despite for love for Kington you don't have it in your top tier.
Back to Huntercombe: Maybe not in your top ten, but in with say Worplesdon and Woking?
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I think one of the great skills of the Golden Age architects was to do a good or great job on fairly plain land. Huntercombe isn't a great bit of land but Park gets something out of every feature on it (putting 3 on the side of the hill to give that great green site, the 4th green, the 8th green, the fall away green on 13, 15 green). It think this is something that Colt, Mackenzie and Braid were also good at. Perhaps in an age where moving and shaping the landform is easier this is a less well developed skill.
Mark - I was under the impression that most of the ridges, gulleys, and depressions found on Huntercombe were man-made. Perhaps Philip could address this question.
Michael,
there are a lot of man-made obstacles at Huntercombe. I assume that the mounds and depressions (almost grass bunkers) throughout the course are artificial (the gully daiagonally siding 2 fairway, the depressions and mounds on 6, mounds on 7, mounds fronting 10, mounds on 11 etc). However, by modern standards not a lot of earth was moved manufacturing these. This was originally a very plain piece of land. What I meant to say is that where there was any interesting natural movement Park got the very best of it.
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Take a look at the updated thread. I had yet another wonderful day Huntercombe and I am sure James enjoyed the course. Perhaps he has some pix to add.
Ciao
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Sean, I enjoyed your photos and commentary. I must admit I do not recall hearing about Huntercombe. I don't know if it is first tier but it is very appealing from what I can see. It seems like one of those courses you wouldn't ever get tired of playing.
Hearing about and seeing the great little, less celebrated tracks is one of the things I particularly like about this forum.
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I'm looking forward to a round at Huntercombe on our arrival day for the Buda Cup. This looks like a very charming course with a lot of quirky almost antique features, all those mounds and little gullies. It's a very appealing look and I like the grade level greens. That's a forgotten thing on most American courses these days.
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I'm looking forward to a round at Huntercombe on our arrival day for the Buda Cup. This looks like a very charming course with a lot of quirky almost antique features, all those mounds and little gullies. It's a very appealing look and I like the grade level greens. That's a forgotten thing on most American courses these days.
Ace
I wonder when grade level geens started to fall by the wayside. Like many things with modern architecture, I suspect Colt's name should be mentioned. The more I really look at Colt's work the more I realize how influential he was.
Ciao
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Sean - Reviewing this thread makes me once again wish more golfers and architects were familiar with Huntercombe. It is an excellent model for how an outstanding course can be constructed on an average piece of property. I can think of dozens of local courses that could use a dose of "Huntercombe-ization."
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Very disappointed. I got out my Bernard Darwin "Golf Courses of the British Isles" to check out the Kent links courses we'll be playing in the Buda Cup, plus Rye and Littlestone (all 4 lovingly described, Sandwich and Deal plus Rye and Deal). While there I checked for Huntercombe and was disappointed to see that Darwin mentions the course on three separate pages, all in very positive terms, but didn't include a full write up as he does for Sunningdale, Woking, etc from that era around London.
So Sean, your pictorial tour is the pre-round research I'll be able to do. Luckily you did a really nice job! Thanks for that.
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Sean - Reviewing this thread makes me once again wish more golfers and architects were familiar with Huntercombe. It is an excellent model for how an outstanding course can be constructed on an average piece of property. I can think of dozens of local courses that could use a dose of "Huntercombe-ization."
Whitty
Yes, like the idea of alpinization, I wonder if folks could handle a course looking like Huntercombe. I fear the subtleties of the course would be lost on many who o wouldn't give it a second/third shot. Of course, I am not convinced that what people want is subtle design either. Like Ace's comments about Portstewart's back 9 being boring, golfers just don't have patience or are not willing to look beyond the idea of bunker road maps.
Ciao
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Tony
Supposedly Huntercombe in general was heavily influenced by Musselbourgh.
Does anyone familiar with both courses see any similarities? The greens maybe?
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Tony
Supposedly Huntercombe in general was heavily influenced by Musselbourgh.
Does anyone familiar with both courses see any similarities? The greens maybe?
Reading Darwin it seems the 8th at Huntercombe was influenced by (I think) the 6th at Musselbourgh. But I haven't played either course so that's just old news from Bernardo!
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Sean - Reviewing this thread makes me once again wish more golfers and architects were familiar with Huntercombe. It is an excellent model for how an outstanding course can be constructed on an average piece of property. I can think of dozens of local courses that could use a dose of "Huntercombe-ization."
Whitty
Yes, like the idea of alpinization, I wonder if folks could handle a course looking like Huntercombe. I fear the subtleties of the course would be lost on many who o wouldn't give it a second/third shot. Of course, I am not convinced that what people want is subtle design either. Like Ace's comments about Portstewart's back 9 being boring, golfers just don't have patience or are not willing to look beyond the idea of bunker road maps.
Ciao
Sorry about that. I don't have personal knowledge of Portstewart's back nine because I had heard it's boring so skipped it in favor of Castlerock! I wasn't disappointed with that course, and really liked the Valley. Next time I'll give Portstewart a go. It's great there are so many solid courses in that area.
And very glad to be able to play Huntercombe this trip!
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Sean,
Thanks for joining me at Huntercombe and for showing me round. I can’t believe that this course isn’t better known, or better studied by golf course architects. I found the course very enjoyable, and it was the constant challenge and interest of the greens that means though the course isn’t really difficult it certainly keeps you honest!
It was a shame that Philip couldn’t join us. But I agree with you that Huntercombe would be a great course to be a member at, so I would only have been jealous!
Is it a top tier course? I’m not sure I can answer that at the moment as I’m still trying to decide the best way to judge courses, especially as Huntercombe seemed such a great course but doesn’t show on many top lists of courses in this country when it certainly should feature somewhere? However, its certainly now jumped in as one of my favourites.
Anyway, thanks for updating your thread with the new photos. We have quite a few photos the same, but here are a few more photos that may be of interest…
Hole 2
Here is the ridge running down the second hole, with the stunning view as a backdrop. Pity I didn’t get any pictures of the red kite that was overhead at the time!
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04875.jpg)
Hole 3
Here is a view of the uphill drive on the third. A great hole this, and along with the previous, probably the main level change across the whole course?
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04877.jpg)
Hole 5
View from behind the fifth hole. The tree in the middle of the fairway that comes into play on the approach shot can be seen.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04890.jpg)
Hole 6
Here are some detail pictures of the hollows along this hole.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04894.jpg)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04895.jpg)
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04897.jpg)
Hole 8
Another hollow in play with your tee shot.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04903.jpg)
Here’s another view from the left of the eighth green showing the level change. The tier on the fourth hole must be about 4 ft high while this one is probably 5 ft high?
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04907.jpg)
Hole 11
This is one of the hollows to the left of the fairway, with a hollow more in play on the twelfth just behind it.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04922.jpg)
Hole 13
A closer view of the green and its various tiers.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04930.jpg)
Hole 14
They don’t show up great, but this is a series of hollows that run perpendicular to the hole, about 3 in a row, with a larger one just behind that. A bit like Oakmont’s Church Pews but without the sand?
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04932.jpg)
Hole 15
A view of this green from the left, showing the various hollows and contours of the green.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn267/jamesboon53/2009%2008%20Huntercombe/DSC04937.jpg)
Following these a few observations.
You can see that I’ve taken plenty of photos of hollows, though there are only a few bunkers on the course.
Have any of these hollows ever been bunkers? Many look to me as though they could have been? Others like the larger ones on the eighth shown above, or in the thirteenth fairway, seem so large and deep it’s as though they are craters left behind after bombs being dropped in the area during the second world war? Does anyone know the history of these?
On aesthetic grounds, the one thing I can’t stand is all these topiary style bushes, be it gorse or hawthorn or whatever. If its in view between the tee and the green, as there are a few on the first and tenth and you want people to see the hole, cut them all out, otherwise just let them grow and trim them back a bit occasionally, but the topiary style trimming is just a distraction!
Also, the eighteenth green is much flatter than many of the others? Another case of a large flat green on the last to give anyone a chance of holing a long putt at the death?
Thanks again Sean!
Cheers,
James
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I, like Philip, am a member at Huntercombe so it is really difficult to be purely objective.
I always find the course a strong challenge to all parts of my game and I think that this is what makes it a charming course. You can't just pick up a club and blast it off the tee - it is a course you cannot just over power. You ideally need to be able to play all types of shot, and the combination of the wind and the trees can make for some tricky club selections. One thing that I notice about a lot of the older members is that they have very sharp short games. The greens are not always easy to find which puts premium on being able to get up and down and putting well. Even if you do find the greens, there are plenty of opportunities for 3 puts if you are in the wrong place.
Interestingly, a friend, who is also a member of the Berkshire, is finding that he is gradually playing more at Huntercombe and less at the Berkshire out of choice.
I have been a member for some time and I have never felt that I have played a really complete round of golf - one of the holes always seems to get me. For this reason, I don't think that I will ever get bored playing there.
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My one visit to Huntercombe ended up as Giles describes it. I played twice, once before lunch and again the afternoon. I was cruising along scoring quite well by my standards until a few wasted strokes toward the middle of the round (sorry, can't remember which particular holes) derailed my good round. So after lunch I was resolved to do better on those problem holes and sure enough, I was able to save bogeys in the places where I had big numbers in the morning. But there were about three of the final seven or eight holes that reached up and bit me instead. I actually scored a couple strokes worse the second time around.
And I don't think any of my double-bogey-or-worse scores were on a hole I walked away from thinking "Man, what a hard hole". Huntercombe seems to pick this bogey golfer's pocket very politely but quite surely. No lost golf balls or unplayable lies or severely sloping greens guaranteeing 3-putts. Just a stroke here and two there if you don't stay in proper position. In particular, when the rough is on the thick side you can be not that far off-line from the smallish greens and have virtually no chance of getting down in two.
Huntercombe is very high up the list of courses I've visited for a day and wished ever since it had been a week.
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As an undergraduate at Oxford I got to play at Huntercombe and Frilford only occasionally - you had to know someone who had a car to get to either. I was a much better player then than I am now, but I never had a decent medal score at Huntercombe. The slightest slip around the greens and lots of strokes would be lost. Frilford Red and Green courses didn't seem to have that cruel streak and I probably prefered them for that reason, and I liked the open nature of the land. I played Huntercombe for the first time for many years earlier this year. It really showed up how poor my golf has become! But I enjoyed the course so much despite its brutality.
Southfield (Colt) in Oxford itself was our home course. It is very urban and not very pretty, but when I revisited it about twenty years ago I was reminded what a good test of golf it is. As at Huntercombe, the flat holes make good use of man-made mounds and hollows. I must go back before I finally give up.
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As an undergraduate at Oxford I got to play at Huntercombe and Frilford only occasionally - you had to know someone who had a car to get to either. I was a much better player then than I am now, but I never had a decent medal score at Huntercombe. The slightest slip around the greens and lots of strokes would be lost. Frilford Red and Green courses didn't seem to have that cruel streak and I probably prefered them for that reason, and I liked the open nature of the land. I played Huntercombe for the first time for many years earlier this year. It really showed up how poor my golf has become! But I enjoyed the course so much despite its brutality.
Southfield (Colt) in Oxford itself was our home course. It is very urban and not very pretty, but when I revisited it about twenty years ago I was reminded what a good test of golf it is. As at Huntercombe, the flat holes make good use of man-made mounds and hollows. I must go back before I finally give up.
Mark
I am very surprised to read your comment "brutality". That is about the last word I would use to describe Huntercombe. Which aspects of the course cause you to be brutalized?
Ciao
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I played at Huntercombe today in a society outing. overall, I thought it was quite an interesting course, but one where local knowledge helps a great deal. Some of the green features can't really be understood until you have played at least once, and some of the slopes are quite significant. The large number of hollows is a notable feature, along with the very small number of bunkers.
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The 2010/11 Winter Tour of England & Wales continued recently with a stop at Huntercombe. Some of the pix are updated, though I continue to believe that trees are holding Huntercombe back from the limelight it deserves.
Other stops on the Tour.
Reddish Vale http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46177.0/
Beau Desert http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0/
Ciao
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Thanks Sean. This course was truly one of my favorites from my trip to London, mainly because of the way it uses land and contours as hazards and determinants of play. One of my favorite holes there is the 17th. After 16 greens that are mostly low-profile, the 17th green sticks up out of the ground to create a ticklish approach on a very short par four. Somehow, though, the hole retains the spirit of the rest of the course, and it is a very cool penultimate hole. Why don't more architects build holes like the 17th and courses like Huntercombe today?
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Thanks Sean. This course was truly one of my favorites from my trip to London, mainly because of the way it uses land and contours as hazards and determinants of play. One of my favorite holes there is the 17th. After 16 greens that are mostly low-profile, the 17th green sticks up out of the ground to create a ticklish approach on a very short par four. Somehow, though, the hole retains the spirit of the rest of the course, and it is a very cool penultimate hole. Why don't more architects build holes like the 17th and courses like Huntercombe today?
John
I don't think the 17th is an unusual hole generally speaking, its just so at Huntercombe.
I suspect the grade level style of Huntercombe wouldn't be all that appealing to many golfers looking for bold, obvious, modern style architecture. Just listen to the archies and tree house on this site. Most want in your face architecture with rippling greens and frilly bunkers. Given the lay of the land I think Park Jr nailed Huntercombe perfectly, a lot of subtle architecture with intermittent shock moments that aren't obvious until walking away from the green. For sure Huntercombe is one of the most overlooked courses that I know of and the odd thing is even if one isn't enamoured with the course it still merits serious consideration for its unusual style.
Ciao
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It's like playing golf in a museum, but in a very good way. From the first hole on, with its front to back slope and a big spine down the middle, through 2, 3 and 4 with their wild slopes and tiers, the getaway at Huntercombe sets one up for a day of fun on a course which no architect would build today. Too bad because it is such an entertaining course.
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The thing I like best about Huntercombe is its reminder of just how little apparent "work" must be done to a piece of slightly rolling property in order to create a fun and fascinating round of golf. For all my love of plateau greensites and big, bold, sweeping curves a day at Huntercombe is the quintessential walk in the countryside punctuated by an amazing variety of golf shot opportunities. I'll bet creating a course like Huntercombe is harder than it seems!
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I can't help but to return again and again to Huntercombe. It draws me in like few other courses can as its such a pleasure to play. We stopped in today for another game and I updated some pix and my overall impression of the course has gone up another notch.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46177.0/ Reddish Vale
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0/ Beau Desert
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46538.0/ Coxmoor
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43021.0/ Southfield
Ciao
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Sean
I am glad you had another good day - last time I was up the course was still in good nick and the greens were surprisingly fast, even though it has suddenly become distinctly wintery conditions.
Let me know when you are around and intend to play - it would be great to have a round with you.
Giles
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Even though I have never seen either Sunningdale or Huntercombe, it has long been my certain sense that those two courses are far more the watershed event in the history and evolution of INLAND golf architecture than many to most realize. I do not believe for a moment that that fact escaped any of the early American architects who went abroad to study golf architecture in preparation for their projects over here, particularly inland.
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Even though I have never seen either Sunningdale or Huntercombe, it has long been my certain sense that those two courses are far more the watershed event in the history and evolution of INLAND golf architecture than many to most realize. I do not believe for a moment that that fact escaped any of the early American architects who went abroad to study golf architecture in preparation for their projects over here, particularly inland.
Playing Huntercombe is like a lesson in the history of early golf architecture. All the greens save #17 are at absolute fairway grade level, and all but #17 can be approached along the ground. The second through fourth greens, and the 8th as well, are wild tiered affairs, with 2, 3, and 4 side by side rather than front and back tiers. It is truly an exciting course to play with regard to the greens.
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I've said it before... Huntercombe is one course that EVERY GCA should be required to visit. The design features found on this course could be replicated with a small budget almost anywhere in the world. It is a true classic, and as much fun as any course I have ever played.
Why, oh why, have more courses like Huntercombe not been built over the years? It never fails to please.
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Sean,
Great pics and comments on Huntercombe. My God man, they need to get the chain saws going on that property! Choked is a word that comes to mind viewing a few of those holes. Are trees that sacred there, or is it thrift that prevents the course from seeing a better presentation? The bones look great. As others have alluded to, the subtle nature of the course features is intriguing.
Does the course get heavy play? Thanks again for a stimulating thread. Others seem to rate it highly, just as you do!
Cheers 8),
Kris
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Sean,
Great pics and comments on Huntercombe. My God man, they need to get the chain saws going on that property! Choked is a word that comes to mind viewing a few of those holes. Are trees that sacred there, or is it thrift that prevents the course from seeing a better presentation? The bones look great. As others have alluded to, the subtle nature of the course features is intriguing.
Does the course get heavy play? Thanks again for a stimulating thread. Others seem to rate it highly, just as you do!
Cheers 8),
Kris
Kris, I played there last year and have to say, the course doesn't feel closed in by tree lines at all. You walk from green to tee through some lovely wooded areas, but the holes are plenty wide enough.
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5 is a bit tight and that stupid tree in the middle of the fairway should go. 18 feels tight too, with my "strong draw" but the rest of the course doesn't feel unduly tight to me. That's not to say I wouldn't get rid of some trees, though.
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5 is a bit tight and that stupid tree in the middle of the fairway should go. 18 feels tight too, with my "strong draw" but the rest of the course doesn't feel unduly tight to me. That's not to say I wouldn't get rid of some trees, though.
Agree, Mark... some tree clearing would be a good thing to open up the views between holes and allow the wind to have more effect.
Are there any other courses in England that you would think comparable to Huntercombe? I haven't played that many, but it seems very unique to me.
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For mine the tree clearing would only really enhance playability on a couple of holes, but the vistas would be enhanced so much.
Clearing of trees from behind the first green would open up a great long view and would make distance perception much tougher.
Trees short/right of the 3rd green if removed or thinned would be better for the turf there, which looked like it struggled in that dark corner.
Trees removed on the inside of the dogleg at #5 might actually make the tree in the fairway more popular, as the brave could take on the shot of going to the right and flirting with the crap.
To the right of the 6th, as Sean said, but until they tunnel that road...
Around the 7th... it doesn't really affect the shot, but that space if it were opened up would allow the great features around the green to shine. Imagine 13 at Worplesdon if the bunkring was surrounded by trees and trees down the chute blocked the view of it - the hole would be diminished. I think it's a similar story here.
From 8 onwards I don't really see any playability issues as such, but in and around the hub where 6 green, 7 tee, 14 green, 15 tee, 17 green and 18 tee are all located, it would be great to have some open views where you can see play on the other holes.
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Yes, I too would disagree with Mark & Bill. To me the trees eliminate what should be some great interior views. Not only that, but imo, just as with bunkers, there should be solid justification for trees. Its fair enough if one likes what I call the green wall look, but to be honest I think this is often because these folks don't really understand how terrific trees can look when allowed to stand alone. Huntercombe has many wonderful specimen trees buried amongst garbage. Finally, I do think there are playability issues not only with trees, but also because the club doesn't keep the undergrowth clear thus all but eliminating the great recovery shot. Bottom line, I shouldn't be walking down shaded fairways in winter when the sun is shining. Houston, we have a problem.
1. Rip out trees behind the green and thin them down the right.
2. Rip out trees behind the green.
3. Rip out trees behind the tee and between 3 & 4 all the way up to the green and create a double fairway.
4. Thin trees down the left (between 4 & 5).
5. Remove single tree in middle of fairway.
6. Thin trees down the left (between 6 & 18) all the way to the green. I hate the new trees down the right, but modern safety ideals dictate they must be there.
7. Rip out trees down the left. There is little no space to shape a ball on this hole.
8. Rip out trees behind the green. Thin trees down the left between 8 & 9.
9. Thin trees down the right.
10. Rip out trees behind the green; thin trees down the left.
13. Thin trees down the left.
15. Thin trees down the left.
17. Thin trees behind and left of the green.
18. Thin trees down the right.
I would also consider cutting down all or most of the gorse found in front of tees.
All this said, I don't think there is a hope in hell of a badly needed tree management program even if the club wanted it.
Tom P
I too think Huntercombe, Sunningdale, Woking and New Zealand were all very important courses in the evlution of inland design.
Giles
I would very much like to have a game with you at Huntercombe. I never fail to enjoy myself.
Kris
I don't know how busy Huntercombe is. Their membership is not small, but smaller than most clubs, somewhere between 400 and 500. I can say the club plays fast golf - too fast for me, but luckily they don't mind going through. The club does get a lot of the old boy societies, the same societies which visit the big guns around London, but Huntercombe is distinctly laid back in comparison to those clubs. Most in the know, know Hunterecombe is special and rightly deserves its place at the table with the big guns.
Ciao
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I agree with pretty much everything that has been said above. The trees at Huntercombe do not really encroach on the playing angles, and you do not get a sense of claustrophobia from playing the course. However, it would be nice to see some views opened up.
The hole where the trees bother me the most is the FIRST. Here, you have a very unique opening hole: a short, downhill, semi-blind par three. The green is very difficult, and the blind nature of the hole can be unsettling at first view. Deception and discomfort abound on this brilliant opener. Yet the trees behind the green block out great long views behind the skyline green and undermine the hole's greatness. Imagine if the only view the golfer had on the first was the top of the flag waving against a blue sky over gorse bushes. Instead, trees insulate the hole and create a sense of comfort that is contrary to the hole's purpose. These trees behind the green really should be cut.
I am never opposed to tree cutting of any sort, and the loss of a few trees could only help Huntercombe.
Kris,
You really should see Huntercombe. The course is definitely not a tree farm in the form of Oak Hill. The trees don't overshadow the architecture one bit. As Tom Paul points out, the course is very influential for inland architecture, and seeing as it was built in 1901, it is really one of the first of its kind. The golf course is also tremendous, with several wild greens, 7 or 8 greens running front to back, and great use of center-line hazards. It also proves that golf courses do not need to have lots of bunkers to be strategic. Every hole at Huntercombe has some strategic aspect to it. On top of all of that, the course and club have great fun, where a brisk, relaxed round is the norm. I cannot say enough good things about Huntercombe.
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I've only seen and played the course the one time (and jet lag afflicted at that :o ), but I was enchanted by the entire experience and didn't feel the trees ever impinged on playing, even as poorly as I was striking the ball that day.
Every course, or most all in my experience, could do with some tree thinning. My point had to do with playability, not opening up views.
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Thanks men for the insights and remarks. Let me say, we must caution against wholesale tree removals, just to gain maximum views, etc.
I'm not implying thats what some were saying, I'm just giving my take as someone who has been heavily involved as an arborist.
While specimen trees certainly have their place, except for special circumstances, several others should be also be left. Disease or maturity eventually will take a tree. Replacing them with something of equal stature isn't easy or cheap. Trees can grow alone, but they often like company, just like we do.
There is no question a tree management program, with arborist collaboration, can be done in a cost-effective, practical manner. Generally, the annual costs are reduced, as it it spread out, but the big benefits are better turf and playing presentation, as well as an safe, attractive setting for the folks who frequent the club or facility.
LP, I will have Huntercombe on my list when making the London orbit. Perhaps you can find yourself over as well and we'll do a North-South Swing!
Cheers all 8)
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Kris
A golf course is not an arboretum and should never be viewed in anything like that light. IMO the goal with trees is most often to create a better atmosphere around the course and that is done with specimen trees which need space to be properly appreciated. Of course some will die over time, but that doesn't mean there can't be a planting regime to replenish the wonderful trees over time - sort of like a rotation system, but with proper trees rather than quick growing trees which add no aesthetic value to the course. Thinning trees at Huntercombe would allow for better playability (essentially no lost balls, little time spent looking for balls), better aesthetics (including a better walk in the park experience), better air circulation and more sunlight to hit my shoulders on a cold winter's day. Folks should head over to St George's Hill and see their tree management and how much better it is than Huntercombe's - and SGH has housing issues to contend with whereas Huntercombe does not.
Ciao
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I agree that the trees could do with some more thinning - it is a constant battle at the club because there are so many. It may not be obvious but the course has had a concerted effort to clear out some areas. Areas to back of the 2nd,the right side of the 5th and to the right side of the 9th have been opened up a bit (although I think that more could be done) and this has revealed interesting mounding that had been hidden in the undergrowth and trees. I suspect that there are other examples around the course that could be revealed, for instance around the back of the 11th.
There has been a concerted effort to open up the ares around the tees to try and improve the light and the as the members have felt that the tees have sometimes been a little untidy.
There is work done every winter on the trees and undergrowth with thinning and clearing so it will be interesting to see where the main focus is this year. I have noticed more action in recent years and I hope it will continue, unfortunately it is not our style as a very conservative club to make drastic or dramatic changes.
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I am absolutly with all that Sean (and others) say about thinning the trees at Huntercombe. The course would be immeasurably improved. Giles is correct that the club has made progress in recent years towards thinning some of the undergrowth but there is still a long way to go. There are still too many places where the undergrowth is prohibitive - and this inhibits the otherwise admirable 'quick golf" instinct (which is not OTT at Huntercombe like at some courses).
Generally the club has been well served by its conservatism since this is what has allowed the course to remain largely unaltered. But there is no question that when it comes to trees there is a bit of a "trees are sacred' attitude. Committee members will say also that their freedom of manouevre is limited further by the attitudes of the South Oxfordshire council who appear to be pretty hand's on when it comes to trees, partly I believe because the course is common land. But as Sean observes, this is surely just a matter of education - I am not aware that this group of adminstrators knows something special about trees that has escaped the leadership of St George's Hill, Woking, The Addington, not to mention many stories US courses like the National, Oakmont etc.
I think the membership is maybe bigger than Sean thinks - possibly closer to 800. But it certainly does not feel like that since the main informal room where golfers meet to eat and drink only takes about 30 people and is seldom full. I think it is quite evenly fraternised through the week with lots of older members (and membership is on the old side) playing during the week. I think the course manages traffic quite effectively because it is possible to tee off on 1,6 and 12.
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My mother-in-law is fabulous!
Thanks to her visiting this weekend, I was, for the first time in a very long while, able to get out on a weekend afternoon for a twilight game. By 3.30pm, I'd narrowed the choice down to the local Oak Park (£25), North Hants (£40), or Huntercombe (£37). I chose Huntercombe. By 4.30pm I was in the car park at Huntercombe and by 4.45pm, was picking the ball out of the cup on the 1st, having succumbed to what must be the customary 3-putt for first time visitors.
Like many on here, I'd been aware of Huntercombe's existence for a very long time and can recall several journeys down to Reading during my days with Hawtree in the early 90's and sneaking a quick peak to the right, as I sped past the course. Not since then have I had occasion to visit, but it has long been on my radar and being as it lies less than 30 miles and 50 minutes from my front door...and it was a lovely day, it seemed an opportunity too good to pass up.
Some have commented on here that this is a course that all golf course architects should visit before plying their trade and having now seen it, wholeheartedly endorse that opinion. It was a truly wonderful golfing experience and is the kind of course that I could happily play on a regular basis for the rest of my days. Messrs Gawith and Payne of this parish are very fortunate indeed.
There are not many courses that hold my attention for every shot of 18 holes, but Huntercombe did that admirably. Unaccompanied as I was, I was grateful for the little course planner that forewarned me of some of the hidden hazards. It kept me out of a lot of mischief.
From the air or on plan, Huntercombe does not have the grandeur of its esteemed heathland neighbours in the South, but it packs a great deal into its modest acreage and the sheer intricacy of the design, with its plethora of humps, moguls, hollows and ridges
is a masterclass in the art of creative golf architecture. The greens are quite something to behold. For me, the 3rd takes the prize for the best green. I don't want to admit how close I came to putting out-of-bounds!
Of the courses i've seen, i'd say Huntercombe reminds me most of Berkhamsted, with a splash of Addington and Tadmarton Heath thrown in. I've not played Royal Ashdown Forest, but I expect that would be similar too. I never felt too constrained by the trees, but understand and agree that it would be for the best if plenty of the clag between the specimen trees were cleared out. There was just so much to take in that it is going to take a few visits to get a handle on just what this course has to offer. Highlights for me were the 2nd, with its brilliant use of sloping terrain and a simply stunning view across the Vale, the 3rd and 4th for their wacky greens, the 7th for its intricate mounding and the 16th, which I felt was a great design for a very short par 5. I tanked a drive way down the middle with a touch of fade, only to find my ball in an impossible position in the deep crater mid fairway. Playing out backwards, I then had an all-or-nothing carry to the green over the deep pit, which I made and completed in par. 17 is also a great little hole and a startling contrast to what has gone before.
More than the course, the whole club seemed to have just the right atmosphere and would I am sure have been a lovely place to linger, had I not been so keen to get in as much golf as I could before the sun set. As it was, I went around the first 5 again in the dusky sunlight and will long remember the feeling of great contentment as I walked down the 2nd fairway and was suddenly, after hours in the woodland, greeted with that fabulous view to the far horizon. Even Didcot Power Station looked lovely in that light.
Huntercombe deserves to be recognized far better than it is. It is much more than a museum piece of how golf architecture was once planned, it is a guide to how we should all be thinking about courses in the future. It has a deep quality that has endured for more than a century, yet there are courses being built today whose appeal wanes before one has even finished playing. Maybe not in the top echelon, but one of England's very finest courses nevertheless and a required visit for anybody with an interest in golf design.
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Robin, on the spot comments about Huntercombe's relevance today. One thing I really loved was the "clubhouse" loop of 1-5. All excellent and fun holes and what a great way to spend a late afternoon hour.
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"Huntercombe deserves to be recognized far better than it is. It is much more than a museum piece of how golf architecture was once planned, it is a guide to how we should all be thinking about courses in the future. It has a deep quality that has endured for more than a century, yet there are courses being built today whose appeal wanes before one has even finished playing. Maybe not in the top echelon, but one of England's very finest courses nevertheless and a required visit for anybody with an interest in golf design."
Robin,
I am so glad to see these comments from you! I agree wholeheartedly about Huntercombe being a guide to how courses could (should?) be built today. The interesting thing about Huntercombe is that the land is relatively unspectacular... most of its holes could be reproduced on virtually any reasonable piece of property. This is highly positive praise in my book as most "great" courses today are determined as much by their sites as the imagination of the architect.
There are a good number of architects working today who can create an outstanding course from an interesting site. Some architects will only accept a job if the site lends itself to an exceptional outcome. How many can create a Huntercombe?
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Mike
Exactly! I think the answer is relatively few and certainly not those who've never seen it. And yet it is all so absurdly simple, which is what makes it great.
I don't think it is wholly down to a lack of imagination on the part of architects, but more that modern design is always compromised by the perceived need for courses to be very easy to maintain. I admired the severity of the featuring at Huntercombe, but have been on many a construction site where such severe features would never make it onto the ground, as they could not be mown with a ride on machine. The modern construction process also tends to smooth things out, which is why we so admire the modern courses where sharp features make it through construction.
I know that in the past my own desire for sharp featuring has not made it onto the ground. When everything was built and mown by hand it was just accepted. Not so nowadays.
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Mike
Exactly! I think the answer is relatively few and certainly not those who've never seen it. And yet it is all so absurdly simple, which is what makes it great.
I don't think it is wholly down to a lack of imagination on the part of architects, but more that modern design is always compromised by the perceived need for courses to be very easy to maintain. I admired the severity of the featuring at Huntercombe, but have been on many a construction site where such severe features would never make it onto the ground, as they could not be mown with a ride on machine. The modern construction process also tends to smooth things out, which is why we so admire the modern courses where sharp features make it through construction.
I know that in the past my own desire for sharp featuring has not made it onto the ground. When everything was built and mown by hand it was just accepted. Not so nowadays.
Robin,
Thanks for your thoughts. Interesting to think that modern courses endure compromises to simplify something simple like mowing, yet often overbuild with artsy bunkers. Saving money in the wrong places it seems.
I now want to see Huntercombe even more.
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Robin - how nice to read those fine words, especially from a pro!
I was actually there yesterday and the guy in the pro-shop mentioned you had asked after me and i saw your name in the book. Indeed i was on the course until 8.05pm - I am sorry I missed you. But now that your appetite has been whetted, perhaps i can lure you back! You have an open invitation - and I am around most of August if you are keen, otherwise in the autumn.
BTW the back right flag on the first is the hardest pin to get to, so 3 putts pretty standard, even if you have played the hole. Actually, the greens were a bit on the slow side, albeit reasonably true.
Philip
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Robin - loved your comments. I'd love you to profile Berkhamsted some day - I have no reason to be near it, but that you mention it in the same breath as Huntercombe gets me excited. I used to love it and so does Peter McEvoy.
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John
Greenkeepers hate walking! I recall a discussion we had whilst I worked at Hawtree that explained why the bunkers on 70's UK golf courses were so far away from the green and it was simply for the reason that this enabled them to get the gang mowers between the green and the bunkers! Thankfully, things have changed since then, but it is still a persistent battle between creativity and maintainability. Everything has a cost and when margins are tight, quick and simple maintenance is crucial.
Philip
We must have just missed each other as I came off 18 green at 7.40pm and went straight to Tee 1 again and played until 8.45. I would love to come back and will PM you when I can. Thank you for the invitation.
Mark
Been looking for an excuse to go to Berkhamsted again for a long time. I thought it played like Pine Valley without the bunkers when I first went there, but perhaps Woodhall Spa is a closer relative, now my experience has broadened. Still a wonderful and a quintissentially British golf course. Would love to do a write up on it. In fact, would enjoy getting back into writing about golf, having not done so for a few years.
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Very fine Doc. You always have a partner should you decide to play Huntercombe again. I am like a moth to a flame with that place. What do you spose it is which holds raters back from including Huntercombe in the top 100 of GB&I?
Ciao
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Sean
Because they've never heard of it. For example, nobody else at our office knew the course exisited. I'm going to arrange a day trip for them to correct that. I've not seen a course in the last 10 years (since Tobacco Road) that has so profoundly impressed me.
When you see some of the courses that are routinely included in the Top 100 rankings, it is sheer negligence on the part of the ratings panels that Huntercombe is overlooked. Maybe it doesn't mean anything to the club, for they know what they have is very special indeed, but it surely is worthy of inclusion on merit.
I'd be delighted to see you there. Perhaps the seeds of an outing have been sown.
Doc
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Robin,
Huntercombe, as with New Zealand where I played last week, certainly do fly under the radar for the greater golfing world. Part of me thinks its a real shame as courses such as these are a delight and should be enjoyed by all, the other part likes the idea that they aren't over run. Its a bit like when my wife and I went to the Outer Hebrides a few years ago. We really enjoyed it, especially how quiet it was, but most people wouldn't have thought to go there. Then a few months later there was a programme on TV about the islands and how beautiful they are and we just screamed at the TV, "Stop telling everyone!" ;D
Thanks for bumping this thread. I really must head back that way!
Cheers,
James
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I think Huntercombe should be the cornerstone of the 2013 Buda Cup.
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I think Huntercombe should be the cornerstone of the 2013 Buda Cup.
Sign me up!
I've discussed Huntercombe on here a bunch of times. I've never seen a course quite like it, relying almost entirely on ground contours for defense, a wide variety of green complexes, a very intimate routing, playable for all, a first-class club, etc. etc. Anyone who has not seen it needs to put it on their radar for their next trip to England.
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I think Huntercombe should be the cornerstone of the 2013 Buda Cup.
Are we never to return to Scotland, laddy? :'(
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Of course we will Bill but only after we've viisted Ireland.
I thnk that makes Huntercombe Buda XV?
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Of course we will Bill but only after we've viisted Ireland.
I thnk that makes Huntercombe Buda XV?
Tony - I forgot about Ireland!!!!! Yes, that would make Huntercombe 2014 at best. Wow, don't we have a lot of good golf on the horizon!
Bill - Where would you like to go in Scotland? I'd like to see the "Big Macs" - Machrihanish and Machrie... especially after Turboe's glowing comments on Machrie. He just returned from a two-week+ fantasy trip that took in more great courses than you can imagine, and Machrie was the highlight of his trip. High praise indeed! Maybe we could add Askernish for a truly old school Buda.
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I'm not sure a 2-ball course, no matter how good a 2-ball course, would make a good base for BUDA.
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I'm not sure a 2-ball course, no matter how good a 2-ball course, would make a good base for BUDA.
We played a four ball right after lunch last year.
Deal worked out okay!
Maybe Huntercombe, Woking and a third, assuming details could be worked out for 24.
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Of course we will Bill but only after we've viisted Ireland.
I thnk that makes Huntercombe Buda XV?
So many courses, so little time.
And money these days! :-X
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Huntercombe would love to have the Buda business, I am sure!
Mark does make a good point re 2-ball course - as things stand, 4 balls only allowed after lunch on the weekend. I am not sure how much flexibility there would be on this point but I would be happy to make inquiries at the right moment.
I suppose one way to finesse it might be that Huntercombe be the base for both the foursomes rounds and/or the singles, with the four-balls played elsewhere. One thing in Huntercombe's favour is that it is an easy walk and on the short-side, so it is not especially daunting place to play 36 holes. I played a foursomes match and a two-ball round back to back last weekend in 5 hrs 50 minutes with a 30 min break in between.
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Huntercombe would love to have the Buda business, I am sure!
Mark does make a good point re 2-ball course - as things stand, 4 balls only allowed after lunch on the weekend. I am not sure how much flexibility there would be on this point but I would be happy to make inquiries at the right moment.
I suppose one way to finesse it might be that Huntercombe be the base for both the foursomes rounds and/or the singles, with the four-balls played elsewhere. One thing in Huntercombe's favour is that it is an easy walk and on the short-side, so it is not especially daunting place to play 36 holes. I played a foursomes match and a two-ball round back to back last weekend in 5 hrs 50 minutes with a 30 min break in between.
I can't seem to get enough of Huntercombe and I do believe on the right dates that it would make a terrific venue for BUDA.
Take a look at the updated tour.
Previous stops on the 2011-2012 Winter Tour.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50427.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50427.0.html) Berkhamsted
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46538.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46538.0.html) Coxmoor
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.0.html) Temple
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html) Little Aston
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html) Beau Desert
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html) Notts
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50088.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50088.0.html) The Old Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50086.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50086.0.html) The New Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50078.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50078.0.html) The Castle Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html) Kington
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37526.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37526.0.html) Harborne
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html) Worcester G&CC
Next scheduled stop: Little Aston
Ciao
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The offer still stands! It is for others to decide whether they would like it to be home for a Buda. Leaving the course aside, I think the character of the club would lend it to being a happy Event. And for our travelling brethren, 40 min from Heathrow is quite attractive!
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The old routing used to start with the 1st in the lower left (now the 14th), a long par 4 doglegging left away from a house. The course now starts with a short par 3 in the upper right part of the map. The reader should note the many centre-line hazards which included hollows and bunkers. This type of strategic design which allowed for skirting the hazards on either side was unheard of for inland golf until the creation of Huntercombe and the beginnings of a re-design (1901) of Woking by Paton and Low.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HUNTERCOMBE/huntercombe.jpg?t=1267384260)
Sean,
As ever thanks for the update. You appear to be having a very good winter tour so far!
Looking again at the plan of the course above, it appears that some of the large grassy hollows may have been bunkers at one time? I know this was discussed recently on another thread, and I personally prefer them as the rough grassy hollows that they are, but is it possible they were once bunkers? The way they are graphically represented in that plan makes it look like they were?
Cheers,
James
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Deal worked because we played RStG on fourball day and one of the Deal days was a fourball day. The problem with two ball days as I found with Brancaster is getting tee times especially if you want to play singles at any stage.
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The difference with Huntercombe might be that two regular BUDAites are members. The question, though, is where would be the second course? Oxforshire doesn't have the riches of Surrey or Berkshire.
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How close would a second course need to be?
I don't think I can wait until Buda. Huntercombe sometime in 2012 for me.
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Two walks in "Parks"?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.0.html
Had lunch in nearby Henly yesterday. That is one pricey area. I enquired in a second hand First Edition bookshop if they had anything on Golf. She pointed out two run of the mill Darwin’s on the shelves, £250 and £350, and asked if I would like to see a First Edition, 1908, of Golf Courses of GB&I?
I would, I did and I saved £1350 by not buying it.
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The old routing used to start with the 1st in the lower left (now the 14th), a long par 4 doglegging left away from a house. The course now starts with a short par 3 in the upper right part of the map. The reader should note the many centre-line hazards which included hollows and bunkers. This type of strategic design which allowed for skirting the hazards on either side was unheard of for inland golf until the creation of Huntercombe and the beginnings of a re-design (1901) of Woking by Paton and Low.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/HUNTERCOMBE/huntercombe.jpg?t=1267384260)
Sean,
As ever thanks for the update. You appear to be having a very good winter tour so far!
Looking again at the plan of the course above, it appears that some of the large grassy hollows may have been bunkers at one time? I know this was discussed recently on another thread, and I personally prefer them as the rough grassy hollows that they are, but is it possible they were once bunkers? The way they are graphically represented in that plan makes it look like they were?
Cheers,
James
Boony
Yes, some key bunkers have been filled in. There were two on the 18th that are now gone - possibly to the detriment of the hole. I think the hollow short of #8 used to house a bunker - there is no shell-like grading on the green-side of the hole like many other hollows. There are a few more as well, but some bunkers have been added. I know the bunker scheme for #17 isn't quite original. The terrible bunker on the right of the 18th fairway isn't original. The club should seriously consider restoring some bunkers!
Isn't Buda only using one club this year? I don't see it as imperative that two clubs be used. In any case, two days Huntercombe and one blow-out day at Swinley would be hard to argue against.
Ciao
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Sean,
A one club BUDA will work where it's easy to play fourballs. I suspect it would be more difficult where four balls are only possible occasionally or with special pleading. Google Maps has Huntercombe to Swinley as an hour. That's a pretty ugly drive, though, and I suspect you're looking at rather longer at the time of day we'd be wanting to make the drive in the morning. I guess you could base yourself in Reading or Maidenhead to ease things, I just wondered if there wasn't anywhere equally suitable closer of further from London.
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Sean,
A one club BUDA will work where it's easy to play fourballs. I suspect it would be more difficult where four balls are only possible occasionally or with special pleading. Google Maps has Huntercombe to Swinley as an hour. That's a pretty ugly drive, though, and I suspect you're looking at rather longer at the time of day we'd be wanting to make the drive in the morning. I guess you could base yourself in Reading or Maidenhead to ease things, I just wondered if there wasn't anywhere equally suitable closer of further from London.
Canary
The solution is simple - ditch 4balls. Singles, 4somes, Greensomes and Chapman are all games which can be played - no real need for 4balls. And finally, there is a good reason for singles rather than the very daft idea of two singles matches in one 4 ball (talk about the slowest format thinkable!). Also, I wasn't thinking of staying one one hotel with Huntercombe/Swinley (or wherever). I imagine if Swinley were last on the schedule guys would pack their bags and move on when heading for Swinley. It doesn't really matter much as things are breaking up after the last day anyway.
Ciao
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Aren't four balls kosher in the afternoon at Huntercombe?
I agree on the issue of two concurrent singles matches in one four ball, that is slow :o, but it's not always possible to get 12 tee times.
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Sean,
A one club BUDA will work where it's easy to play fourballs. I suspect it would be more difficult where four balls are only possible occasionally or with special pleading. Google Maps has Huntercombe to Swinley as an hour. That's a pretty ugly drive, though, and I suspect you're looking at rather longer at the time of day we'd be wanting to make the drive in the morning. I guess you could base yourself in Reading or Maidenhead to ease things, I just wondered if there wasn't anywhere equally suitable closer of further from London.
Canary
The solution is simple - ditch 4balls. Singles, 4somes, Greensomes and Chapman are all games which can be played - no real need for 4balls. And finally, there is a good reason for singles rather than the very daft idea of two singles matches in one 4 ball (talk about the slowest format thinkable!). Also, I wasn't thinking of staying one one hotel with Huntercombe/Swinley (or wherever). I imagine if Swinley were last on the schedule guys would pack their bags and move on when heading for Swinley. It doesn't really matter much as things are breaking up after the last day anyway.
Ciao
Sean - most guys don't want to have a steady diet of foresomes... after traveling over 3000 miles to get there it's nice to play your own ball round a course. And, while I would love to see our group visit Swinley, they wanted 160 quid in September! For that kind of money I'd rather play somewhere else... two or three times! I agree that a one hour drive is no big deal... we can relocate to new accommodations and make the drive in the evening after golf. Personally, I'd much rather travel at the end of the day rather than waste good daylight stuck in traffic! JMHO.
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Sean,
A one club BUDA will work where it's easy to play fourballs. I suspect it would be more difficult where four balls are only possible occasionally or with special pleading. Google Maps has Huntercombe to Swinley as an hour. That's a pretty ugly drive, though, and I suspect you're looking at rather longer at the time of day we'd be wanting to make the drive in the morning. I guess you could base yourself in Reading or Maidenhead to ease things, I just wondered if there wasn't anywhere equally suitable closer of further from London.
Canary
The solution is simple - ditch 4balls. Singles, 4somes, Greensomes and Chapman are all games which can be played - no real need for 4balls. And finally, there is a good reason for singles rather than the very daft idea of two singles matches in one 4 ball (talk about the slowest format thinkable!). Also, I wasn't thinking of staying one one hotel with Huntercombe/Swinley (or wherever). I imagine if Swinley were last on the schedule guys would pack their bags and move on when heading for Swinley. It doesn't really matter much as things are breaking up after the last day anyway.
Ciao
Sean - most guys don't want to have a steady diet of foresomes... after traveling over 3000 miles to get there it's nice to play your own ball round a course. And, while I would love to see our group visit Swinley, they wanted 160 quid in September! For that kind of money I'd rather play somewhere else... two or three times! I agree that a one hour drive is no big deal... we can relocate to new accommodations and make the drive in the evening after golf. Personally, I'd much rather travel at the end of the day rather than waste good daylight stuck in traffic! JMHO.
Whitty
Nobody is saying one can't play their own ball - its called singles and when playing at a 2 ball club that isn't an unreasonable expectation at least for one game of the day.
I agree with you, I shan't be playing Swinley for £100 let alone £150, but I just picked Swinley out of a crowd. Pick a course, it doesn't really matter which so long as it makes sense from a travel perspective.
I get it if guys don't want to play Huntercombe, but I don't buy that it isn't easily doable with very little inconvenience (none form my perspective) on the part of Pests. From my perspective, it is nearly always better to utilize a club which has GCA members than not because our chances of getting what we want are increased.
Ciao
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Good news concerning Huntercombe. The club has recently taken on the job of removing some trees and gorse behind #1, to the right of the 11th fairway, left and right of the 12th fairway. Here is hoping that the trend continues. See the updated tour.
Previous stops on the 2011-2012 Winter Tour.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35648.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35648.0.html) Whittington Heath
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40029.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40029.0.html) Edgbaston
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50805.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50805.0.html) Sherwood Forest
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32655.0.html) Woking
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50427.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50427.0.html) Berkhamsted
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46538.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46538.0.html) Coxmoor
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.0.html) Temple
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html) Little Aston
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html) Beau Desert
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html) Notts
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50088.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50088.0.html) The Old Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50086.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50086.0.html) The New Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50078.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50078.0.html) The Castle Course
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html) Kington
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37526.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37526.0.html) Harborne
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html) Worcester G&CC
Next scheduled stop: the Sauntons
Ciao
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Thanks Sean,
I like the look of the 1st now they've cleared out behind the green giving views into the distance. More inviting I would say, and probably sits better with the following hole, which has that great view off to the left all along its length.
Is that Mr Sheehy in the white trousers? Doesn't he know its February and only a nutter would wear such trousers at this time of year? ;D
Cheers,
James
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Just a quick one on getting singles slots - Huntercombe may be able to allow us to start at both the 1st & the 6th (and sometimes even the 12th) - it may be worth asking. That would have the added benefit of getting everyone back in at a more similar time.
The other course broadly in the area that might be of interest could be Beaconsfield (Colt).
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If there was a Huntercombe BUDA then Beacosnfield wouldn't be a bad choice. Not least because it is, I believe, a link between Sir Bob Huntley and Luke Donald! Stoke Park (MacKenzie) is another possibility as is Denham (Colt). Most of the Berkshire heathland courses could also qualify, I suppose, though I, for one, would be in favour of somewhere not quite so frequently discussed here for the second course.
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Thanks Sean,
I like the look of the 1st now they've cleared out behind the green giving views into the distance. More inviting I would say, and probably sits better with the following hole, which has that great view off to the left all along its length.
Is that Mr Sheehy in the white trousers? Doesn't he know its February and only a nutter would wear such trousers at this time of year? ;D
Cheers,
James
The white troozers are Sheehy's litmus test for playable conditions in winter.
I still think Huntercombe would be a good Buda venue, but I suspect it will take a member to get the ball rolling with organization. I would be willing to get back in the fray of organizing with the support of a member. I am not sure there needs to be a second venue, but as I wrote before, if there is one it makes sense to make it heathland doozy. I don't see many folks from overseas getting too pumped for Beaconsfield, indeed I am guessing Huntercombe may be a tough sell because of the lack of eye candy.
Ciao
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Sean,
I think you underestimate overseas BUDAites. Hankley and Liphook were hardly mainstream attractions but BUDA was very popular. Good numbers too promising to turn up to play 3 days in Cumbria later this year. Given the obvious love Huntercombe gets on here I suspect it wouldn't struggle to attract a good number for BUDA. Huntercombe is also one of the few UK courses that have the pleasure of two GCAers as members, so this should be a real possibility.
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As a one-course Buda, I suspect Huntercombe would be a fascinating experience, seeing a variety of pins on the likes of 1-4, 8, 10, 12, 16 and 17.
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Henley would make a good, if not cheep, base with good food and drink. I am not sure we would be able to do a one hotel base. It might be easier to pick a pub and arrange various B&B within walking distance.
A hotel might be easier and cheeper in Wallingford.
I think that the club would try to be flexible if we can get the right dates.
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The variety of tees that can be used to start also creates the opportunity to start the field close together, finish closer together and have more off-course fellowship.
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I think that the club would try to be flexible if we can get the right dates.
Cha ching. I suspect we could even get weekend dates. I have always found the club to be very friendly.
Concerning hotels, I can't help but think that Oxford is the place to stay. Its not terribly far and is an historical treat.
Ciao
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Sean,
Have you driven down the M40 from Oxford in the morning? Henley is also historic, doesn't have arsey students (I should know, I was one) or chippy towneys and is an easier drive to the club. Oxford's a great city (and despite all the above comments, I love it) but I think Giles is right, Henley might be the better BUDA base.
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You wouldn't go down the M40, rather the A4074/A4130 Reading/Henleys road to get Huntercombe from Oxford, but Mark's point still applies - that is a horrible journey, despite looking fairly short. Plus Oxford hotels, in my experience, are either terrible or expensive, there doesn't seem to be much in between. Henley a better choice, though far from cheap.
Great Milton isn't too far away. Block booking at the Manoir?!
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Adam,
What a splendid idea. Presumably that booking would need to be made many months in advance? It remains a regret that, 20 years ago, when my in-laws were choosing venues for our Wedding reception, le Manoir made a short list of 2 and was then, for reasons I can no longer remember, cut.
Mark
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You lot are probably right - its only that Henley is soooo twee. Oxford is far nicer place to spend time.
Manoir??? is right. I can only imagine what a room costs there and isn't it just outside of Oxford near the M40?
Ciao
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The answer to that problem, then, is to stay in Maidenhead and see if Heston has room for us all at the Fat Duck.
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I still think Huntercombe would be a good Buda venue, but I suspect it will take a member to get the ball rolling with organization. I would be willing to get back in the fray of organizing with the support of a member. I am not sure there needs to be a second venue, but as I wrote before, if there is one it makes sense to make it heathland doozy. I don't see many folks from overseas getting too pumped for Beaconsfield, indeed I am guessing Huntercombe may be a tough sell because of the lack of eye candy.
Not a tough sell at all. Even if people were less than enamored with Huntercombe (which I cannot imagine), there are plenty of add on courses nearby. I think a Buda Huntercombe would have more demand than capacity.
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The right thing to do from a GCA perspective would be to include Sunningdale. 36 holes Old & New - what could be more appropriate?
Ulrich
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The right thing to do from a GCA perspective would be to include Sunningdale. 36 holes Old & New - what could be more appropriate?
Ulrich
Agreed. It would add expense but worth it. Although in line with BUDA going to slighlty non-mainstream venues, the Berkshire would also be ideal and the lunch there is as good as anywhere.
Both courses one day = 280 quid.
Add three rounds in two days at Huntercombe at member's guest fee and the average cost isn't too bad! 70 quid?
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The Winter Tour marched on yesterday at Huntercombe. Most impressive conditioning given all the rain we have experienced. See the updated pix.
Previous Stops on the 2013-14 Winter Tour:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html) Cleeve Cloud
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49998.0.html) Worcester G&CC
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35648.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35648.0.html) Whittington Heath
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57487.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57487.0.html) West Hill
Walton Heath Old
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57349.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57349.0.html) Sandy Lodge
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,26579.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,26579.0.html) Tadmarton Heath
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51321.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51321.0.html) Sutton Coldfield Recommended in Winter Only
Next Scheduled Stop: Minch Old
Ciao
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Huntercombe receives much praise herein and following a couple of recent visits is somewhere I have also taken a great liking too. A really peaceful and relaxing course to play with some lovely features and green complexes to keep the interest level high and the game on its toes. I must also say how well the course played given the recent extremely wet and rainy period that the UK has gone through. Courses built on free-draining land, can't beat them!
Below - 4th green - photographed from front right of the green - humps and bumps and hollows and no need for sand. Lovely stuff.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/815x562q90/19/utlk.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/815x423q90/163/sspu.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/4513x2343q50/138/ac7o.jpg)
Below - 4th green - photographed from in front of the green
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/815x445q90/838/fs7l.jpg)
Below - 4th green - photographed from left front and from the 5th tee
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/674x569q50/543/b4dl.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/815x517q90/850/6nfk.jpg)
Below - 8th green - photographed from the left side with the famous bank and rear plateau. There is a section of the ridge that butts forwards a little and this makes the feature and the shotmaking required more interesting than if it were a simple straight-line ridge.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/815x557q50/35/y1m1.jpg)
When viewed from the side it is apparent that the higher rear plateau is not flat but actually slopes downwards and over the back at its rear.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/815x574q90/36/7gaj.jpg)
Tree clearance has been mentioned on this thread and there was evidence that some, although not a lot, was being undertaken. A couple of tees were also being rebuilt. One aspect of the course I found curious was that the dew was not removed from the greens until around midday, the timing of which seemed a little surprising to me.
Below - 13th green - photographed from the left side. Nice subtle green this, ridges angled diagonally across the front and the green generally falling away towards the rear.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/815x475q90/856/g4ra.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/815x504q50/811/j3kq.jpg)
Below - the 13th hole photographed from behind the green looking back towards the tee
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/815x594q50/607/ktor.jpg)
MORE TO FOLLOW
atb
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Huntercombe cont'd
Below - the 200yd par-3 7th - photographed from the rear of the green and looking back towards the tee. Humps and bumps and hollows galore. Splendid stuff. Hidden somewhat in the semi-shade is a subtle ridge running along the length of the green (just to the left of the flag position in this photo).
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/874x540q90/822/1zt5.jpg)
Below - 17th green - variously photographed from the right front and right side of the green. Only a short 280 yd par-4 but a nasty wee two tier green if you're out of position from the tee.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/874x503q90/577/coe3.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/874x540q90/89/c3ca.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/874x458q90/691/o969.jpg)
What you see a lot of at Huntercombe - Red Kites, the clubs emblem I believe.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/646x586q90/199/xgia.jpg)
atb
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Sean,
Great looking course, thanks for the pics!
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Thank you Richard.
Thomas - which elements of Huntercombe did you appreciate the most?
Tom D - what did you think of Huntercombe? You were scheduled to visit, but I got the impression you were running out of gas at the end of the trip :D
Ciao
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Only two more months...
Bogey
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What a fascinating course. Thank you for bringing this thread back to life.
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The trees have just come into leaf in the last few weeks, which really gives a sense of encroachment - especially on the drive at 18 from the Whites! Brian, is there anywhere in particular that you would cut trees down - or just all over? ;)
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First post indeed! I think that change, if any, will be gradual.
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Sheehy - the penny drops :D I was smitten by Huntercombe from the first play. It wasn't until I got into the habit of playing the course in the winter when I realized just how tight the course is due to lumber because on beautiful sunny days we were often walking in shade down the middle of fairways ??? There is no question gobs of trees should be removed, but the members don't seem overly bothered. If the work behind #1 doesn't convince the members then nothing will. I realize that playability and agronomy issues are at the fore here, but the saddest thing for me is the walk in the park. There are so many fantastic specimen trees that can't be seen for the forest of rubbish trees. Anyway, I still have a lot of time for Huntercombe.
Ciao
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One issue with tree encroachment, that has only occurred to me recently, is that the hole may be completely open for play, but the shadows and the trees around it can still affect the experience. Here's a great par 3 from the classic course at Köln (Cologne) that I played recently. The trees don't come into play, not even the one behind the green (picture taken around 1:30 PM):
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-l-DSrbaobcE/U2f5PwUH6pI/AAAAAAAAFLc/nbfO2LD49-A/s720/3.jpg)
They're hosting a European Seniors Tour event there, so I guess it wouldn't hurt to make more room for spectators :)
I'm going to play Huntercombe on June 8th, probably with Sean, so I'm looking forward to see the tree situation there.
Ulrich
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Ulrich
The tree situation isn't good and I don't expect it to ever change. Of course what doesn't get mentioned is that because trees push in, the rough pushes in. On many holes the fairway pinches in shy of the green so wide shots are usually played from rough. I am convinced there is a great and much more beautiful course buried between green walls, but thats Huntercombe. One can take it or leave. I choose to take it because the design is so unusual and better still, unusually simple.
Ciao
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Huntercombe is the antiquity museum (Louvre?) of golf. Every round is a lesson in the history of golf, and it's still great fun to play.
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Even museums need to be dusted and have any cobwebs etc removed.
Much as I admire the course, the curtains need to be opened - even just a smidgen wider - to let in the light. That way folk can really see and appreciate what's special about the exhibit.
atb
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Even museums need to be dusted and have any cobwebs etc removed.
Much as I admire the course, the curtains need to be opened - even just a smidgen wider - to let in the light. That way folk can really see and appreciate what's special about the exhibit.
atb
No argument.
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keep the photos of Huntercombe coming, please! and thank you
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I found very little to criticize at Huntercombe, including its shagginess. Perhaps if we're so adament about clearing the brush and thinning the trees we should approach the club about forming an artisan's club tasked with doing just that. Sean?
Bogey
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Bogey, interested to hear your further impressions of the course as a first-timer.
There is an Artisans Club but i am not aware that there membership includes any such duties!
Philip
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Bunch of freeloaders, Phillip. Put them to work!
More later on Huntercombe, but I'm debating whether it is my favorite golf course on the planet. Nuff said?
Bogey
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keep the photos of Huntercombe coming, please! and thank you
As requested - B&W view from behind the par-3 7th green
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s661/thomasdai/P1010333_zps0cb98e67.jpg)
atb
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Bunch of freeloaders, Phillip. Put them to work!
More later on Huntercombe, but I'm debating whether it is my favorite golf course on the planet. Nuff said?
Bogey
Bogey, aren't the old hollows wonderful? I loved the pits out in front of the par 5 16th. I cou,KD play y the re ev every day. The early front none greens are just amazing.
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as requested, some photos from the round i played about a month ago with Brian. There are much better photos elsewhere on the thread - and these appear a bit out of focus (new camera?) - but they do show the course with some bright splashes of colour from the bluebells and gorse in the spring.
Philip
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/00bbe0a9-1863-4508-8d94-61c889d87505.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/7c72e314-df4d-4740-b91b-3937d46b6e2e.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/7de63cc0-110b-4a0d-958c-5bd8d0cdb188.jpg)
these first few are of the first green which has a great view into the middle distance now that they have cleared it up.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/1e9b54e7-6270-4833-9710-9ea9e90f526d.jpg)
Tee shot on 2
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/e664e643-d023-42b2-aacf-80ef0bc40bb3.jpg)
3rd green
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/82f14e06-90c9-4058-b696-8ed99ded05bf.jpg)
a favourite view - of the 5th hole back up to the clubhouse from the 17th tee
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and a few more, apologies for wrong size!
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/hcombe2a.jpg)
green on 2
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/hcombe6.jpg)
6
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/hcombe8.jpg)
no 8
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/hcombe9.jpg)
9
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/hcombe12.jpg)
12
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/55163edc-368d-4f1e-9bd4-b2de8feeee7b.jpg)
from behind 13
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/hcombe14a.jpg)
14
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/pgawith/hcombe16.jpg)
a view of the large pot on 16
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I notice that the club is trimming tons of branches thoughout the course, but not too many trees have come out as of yet :'( Anyway, Huntercombe was in very fine nick yesterday despite some crazy fairway lines a good 30% in from the vegetation :-\ (the 8th being a prime example). See updated tour on page 1.
Previous 2014 - 15 Winter Tour Stops:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html) Notts
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48115.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48115.0.html) Moseley
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.0.html) Worplesdon
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60107.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60107.0.html) Walton Heath New
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59831.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59831.0.html) Cumberwell Park Orange
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html) Kington
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html) Cleeve Cloud
Future Scheduled Stops: Delamere Forest, Formby Ladies, Formby & Little Aston
Ciao
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I am taking up Sean's invitation, and moving a Huntercombe-related exchange over from the '2 par fives' thread.
'Richard
It could also be that in the change of handicapping system, the 16th became a par 4. Its hard to believe it remained a par 5 for its entire existence. Otherwise, why squeeze out more yards to that 475ish mark?
Yes, I think Huntercombe was considered very long in its day. I have seen some old yardages and few stand out as remarkably changed. Maybe you would care to offer your opinion #s 2, 3, 5 and 14. I don't want to overly hijack this thread so reply using the Huntercombe link.'
To answer as fully as I can, taking a lot of material from both John Moreton's centenary history (2001) and the earlier (1983) booklet by John Adams which, very usefully, contains a plan (reprinted from Golf Illustrated) of the near-original layout of August 1901,
the 2nd (original 7th, at 490 yards) was originally played much closer to the current 5th fairway, and doglegged round to a green some way above the present location: shortly after the opening, the field on which much of the 2nd now plays was obtained by the club, and one of the best bunkerless holes in golf gradually emerged. The green originally sloped markedly away from the player, but by 1904 it had been flattened and built up at the rear (as now). How this original hole could have been nearly 100 yards longer than the current 2nd is not, however, clear, and isn't accounted for simply by improvements in measurement techniques.
the 3rd (original 8th, at 456 yards) was likewise at least 80 yards longer, and the 1901 plan does suggest a tee much closer to the 2nd green, rather than the current walk through the bushes, and that would certainly account for much of the divergence (in addition to suggesting a truly heroic hole of c450 yards, given the nature of the green)
the 5th (original 10th, at 496 yards) tee was likewise further back, beside the 4th green, and it looks from the plan as if the 5th green itself was further on, almost behind what is now the 1st tee (I hope this is all making sense, and apologies to the non-Huntercombe-familiar): that would account for the 90-yard discrepancy in yardage
the 14th (original 1st, at 473 yards) may have played to a green a little further on from the current site (it's clear from the August 1901 plan that at no time was the original 1st tee ever across the Oxford-Henley road, close to the original clubhouse) and that seems the only explanation for the additional 40 yards.
My only other piece of evidence is a scorecard of my father's from ( would guess) the late 1940s, and that gives the current 14th (then 439 yards), 16th (443), 6th (520), 8th (438), and 12th (419) all as bogey five, and an overall bogey of 73.
I should perhaps state that by Huntercombe standards I am a relative newbie, having only been a member for about 20 years, although my uncle Neill was secretary there during the 1970s, and the family connection goes back, as mentioned, quite a way.
Hope this helps, anyway. Rye has famously contracted over the years, and I wonder what other 'category one' courses have actively shrunk in the century or so since their foundation? Luffenham, which lost a trio of holes during WW2, might be a contender, and I am sure many GCAers can think of others: Rhyl, where the Welsh Championship was played immediately before WW2, and which lost half its course, is perhaps the most extreme example (without ceasing to exist altogether) that I know of personally.
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I can't speak to Huntercombe, but Sunningdale, which of course Park built at the same time, was considered very long indeed at first. Read Darwin from 1910, and he says he feels Sunningdale, more than any other course, was improved by the Haskell, because it was more playable.
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Played in summer 2014 and loved Huntercombe. Very interesting that Ian Fleming grew up playing this course. It's also mentioned in the Goldfinger novel.
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Richard
Thank you.
I am still having difficulty figuring out the extra 100 yards on #2 with your description...same for the 3rd.
Ciao
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So am I. It can't just be down to inaccurate measurement, not over that scale. The 3rd I can just about figure out (just), but not the 2nd. Apologies!
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[size=78%]As is the case whenever I play a new course, I try to avoid all information and photos beforehand. As a result, I knew nothing about Huntercombe, other than it came highly recommended by GolfClubAtlas members and was designed by Willie Park Jr. After playing the course, I was surprised to read that the layout was Park Jr's alone as I expected it was a modification of an earlier layout. There is an odd mix of features. I suppose it could be said that this is what contributes to the uniqueness of the golf course, but I struggled to find the harmony between the strategic and penal, and the subtle and overt.[/size]
Take, for example, the tone set by the second hole (lets ignore rough and tree lines throughout as I suspect we'd all agree they are something of a mess). The second is an exceptional golf hole that uses the lay of the land and an angled green to create a demanding hole that nonetheless offers width and safety for the bogey golfer. Contrast this hole with the 6th. While I understand that the land is far less interesting, I was certain that the penal features (in the form of 3 crossing hazards without ample or any width to play alongside) were the remnants of an earlier design, reminiscent of the cross hazard on Royal Melbourne West's 15th.
And then we have the contrast of subtle and bold. It was something of a shock to see the raised mounding surrounding the 7th green and worse was the raised 17th green. Perhaps I'm being overly critical as, in both cases, I liked the hole, but throughout the round I found this random movement affected the continuity of the course.
A final question... how well do hollows serve as a hazard? Do they require significant rough to be effective? I, fortunately, only found one throughout the round (the deep one, short of the 16th green) but as it was only a pitch the blindness didn't bother me much.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc430/SaltyLaw/Huntercombe_zpssi81dob0.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/SaltyLaw/media/Huntercombe_zpssi81dob0.jpg.html)
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Mark
We have to be careful when speaking of width because I think the course was far wider 100 years ago than today. So a hole like the 6th may well have had space to steer around the hollows. I am certain there was space on the road side of the hole, but I am sure you can understand the issue of safety causing trees to be planted the entire length of the hole.
I am not sure the entire course is Park Jr. For instance the 7th had its mounds put in after opening (but still quite early in the design evolution) and Park may not have directed the work.
I like the hollows because one has a recovery, but often its not the end of the world and if well recovered a par can be saved. That said, some hollows are far more hairy than others so its a bit of mixed bunch that really wants to be avoided even if one will often get a lucky lie.
I don't worry about harmony of design so your concerns never occurred to me. The 17th is a welcome break from what comes earlier and offers one last sting before finishing.
Ciao
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I heard a talk last night by Alan Henderson, Captain of the British Golf Collectors Society and a Huntercombe stalwart, which I think finally solves the mystery Sean and I were trying to unravel. In essence the original site for what is now the 2nd green was much further down the hill, almost backing on to the Oxford-Henley road, and the original drive for the current 3rd likewise altogether more demanding, 80-90 yards below its current site. Park (whose original intentions were not always viable within the land, as eventually secured) changed this routing very quickly. What is now the 1st hole was likewise played from a tee on what is the site now of the clubhouse itself, at an altogether different angle to the green. Mr Henderson displayed, also, a fascinating aerial view from 1946, showing no fewer than 50 sand bunkers of one sort or another in play: many simply became grassed over naturally, in the gentle post-war sleep of the course during the latter stages of the Nuffield tenure.
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Richard
Thanks. See the link below. Some of the now missing bunkers look very compelling and some of the newer ones look better placed. This aerial comparison demonstrates how much width has been lost due to trees. I know that we all know trees are an issue, but once one sees the difference it can be alarming.
http://golfcoursehistories.com/HC.html (http://golfcoursehistories.com/HC.html)
Ciao
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Richard
Thanks. See the link below. Some of the now missing bunkers look very compelling and some of the newer ones look better placed. This aerial comparison demonstrates how much width has been lost due to trees. I know that we all know trees are an issue, but once one sees the difference it can be alarming.
http://golfcoursehistories.com/HC.html (http://golfcoursehistories.com/HC.html)
Ciao
That older version of Huntercombe looks much more enjoyable than the new. As I've mentioned previously I find Huntercombe too claustrophobic. I was actually planning on going and playing yesterday evening on the twilight rate (£40) as I wanted to see it again given all the rave reviews on this site - I've never been wrong before but there's always a first time :). Alas, the weather didn't look great so I played at Frilford instead. I might try again next week before the light makes it impossible after work.
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I visited Huntercombe today for a cold and wet morning round. I am happy to report that there was a tremendous amount of maintenance work going on around the course, particularly involving some significant clearing of the undergrowth lining so many of the fairways.
Compared to my last round here in October, several areas were noticeably clearer today (i.e. behind 4 green, right of 6 fairway, around 10 green). They were getting started on some work to the right of 9 fairway and to the left of 16 fairway as well. Much more needs to be done as the course still has a somewhat claustrophobic feel, particularly off several of the tees. But the club seems to be committed to improving the presentation of the course.
There were also a few bunkers in the process of refurbishment (10, 16, 17) and some drainage work here and there. Come the spring, it all should look considerably better. Great things happening at Huntercombe!
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I was just reminiscing about playing Huntercombe on a February day in 2010 with Sean A., Tony M., and Philip G. It poured for the first five holes, but after that the sun broke through, and it became a great day for winter golf. Once the round was over (I remember playing well but losing our match), we retired to the clubhouse, ordered tea and teacakes, and watched Ireland defeat England in rugby. This made our table happy, with Tony being from Ireland originally and Philip "having no love for English rugby," while the rest of the clubhouse groaned and the Americans looked on with a mix of interest and confusion. Since I had only been in England a month at that point, this was all a new experience for me, and it was fantastic. Thank you to Sean for pointing me to this hidden gem, Tony for driving me over and back from center London, and Philip for hosting.
A few comments on the course:
- The first four holes are brilliant. The short par three at 1 is unique in the golfing world, as far as I have seen. It's an 8-iron or less to a runaway green backed by Oxfordshire countryside, and it gives you the sense that Huntercombe is going to be something different. 2-4 are all standouts, due to their use of terrain and wicked green designs. No bunkering is necessary on any of these holes, which makes you wonder: how many bunker features (especially fairway bunker features) are redundant, expensive, and cluttered?
- I would agree with Mark S. that the hollows throughout the course are not fearsome hazards, but they do create some unsettling shots (16, for example, is not a comfortable approach, mainly because of the big crater in front of the green). They also mean a player's wedge game has to be honed to do well here, as the short-to-medium length pitch shot off an uneven lie will get a major workout here. Also, while the hollows may be less penal, the mounds on holes like 7 can be a nightmare, certainly more so than a bunker for the top 10% of golfers.
- 18 is the only letdown of the whole place. I suppose the layout fits with a match play mentality, in that the electrifying 15 to 17 stretch will decide most contests and 18 serves as a formality. I am not sure I buy this rationale. Call me a pampered American millennial, but I like to see a strong finishing hole, and the closer at Huntercombe does not deliver. It is overly similar to the 5th (though it turns the opposite direction) and does not offer the drama of what has preceded. Something more exciting on the tee shot, perhaps, would have closed things out in more appropriate fashion.
- The dog bowl outside the clubhouse is a major plus. As a new dog owner in Los Angeles (there is only one course in LA that encourages dogs--can you name it?), I appreciate this even more today.
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- The dog bowl outside the clubhouse is a major plus. As a new dog owner in Los Angeles (there is only one course in LA that encourages dogs--can you name it?), I appreciate this even more today.
Yes. Also has one of the best short Biarritz holes around.
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I heard a talk last night by Alan Henderson, Captain of the British Golf Collectors Society and a Huntercombe stalwart, which I think finally solves the mystery Sean and I were trying to unravel. In essence the original site for what is now the 2nd green was much further down the hill, almost backing on to the Oxford-Henley road, and the original drive for the current 3rd likewise altogether more demanding, 80-90 yards below its current site. Park (whose original intentions were not always viable within the land, as eventually secured) changed this routing very quickly. What is now the 1st hole was likewise played from a tee on what is the site now of the clubhouse itself, at an altogether different angle to the green. Mr Henderson displayed, also, a fascinating aerial view from 1946, showing no fewer than 50 sand bunkers of one sort or another in play: many simply became grassed over naturally, in the gentle post-war sleep of the course during the latter stages of the Nuffield tenure.
Richard
Do you have any ideas as to why the yardage was reduced? Was it a cost saving measure? When I look at the issue of the 2nd I can imagine if the left half of the hole was purchased after the course opened then that explains the reduction in yardage for 2 & 3....which is a considerable amount of perhaps 150 yards. This might also explain the reduction of yardage for the 5th.
Young JNC...you are welcome. I agree that 18 is a letdown. Though I am not overly fond of the 5th either.
Ciao
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JNC - they lengthened the 18th hole by about 20 yards a year or so ago. Played into the prevailing wind it is quite a daunting hole and not an easy par. But I agree, not especially dramatic. I like the 5th. It has a slightly random tree that can obstruct a good drive, but has some nice features such as the low ridge on the right off the tee that helps shape the hole. And I like the overall rightward sweep up to the clubhouse. Not one of the best greens on the course but an awkward one to putt on.
There is no doubt that the club is now in the midst of a determined effort to tidy up the undergrowth and generally make the course less claustrophobic - an initiative as welcome as it is overdue, but which can only improve the course.
Philip
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Enjoying Sean's Liphook review I could not resist on clicking his link to the review of Huntercombe. I never tire of looking at and thinking about this course. I find the comments regarding the course's status in England as immaterial. I have it clearly in my top 10 favorites I've played and strongly encourage each of you to get there in your lifetime. If you can go around with the Yank, all the bettter.
It is the rare case of effective shaping in places and restraint elsewhere. I like the sandless hollows and the half-stroke they exact. A great mix of pushed up and lay of the land greens - the fall-away third being my favorite. I'm not bothered by the forestation since inception as it seems congruent with the area. Sure, you could clear out some of the underlying brush, but there seems to be more than adequate room to golf your ball.
When one falls in love with a course, there is no need to assign it a number.
Bogey
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Bogey I hope you get back to Huntercombe before too long. The new greenkeeper has done a wonderful job improving the presentation and playability of the course over the past two years. I played this afternoon and the course has never looked better in the twenty years I have been a member.
Also interesting, 85 players teed it up in the Autumn medal. Only two played better than their handicap, and this despite it being a fairly benign day and no stupid pins. A combination of the inherent challenge of the greens and “firm and fast” presentation Offers more than enough protection.
Philip