Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Jay Flemma on November 20, 2007, 05:16:43 PM
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Did Behr ever write a book? Where might I find a collection of his articles or essays? Did he build anything on the east coast at all? Thanks.
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Jay:
He built nothing on the East coast, only in California. Behr did not write a book, he only wrote a series of articles that I feel were all basically strung together in a sort of an "a priori" way to make a couple of fairly fundamental points and hopefully acheive a fairly fundamental direction for architecture and golf. Some of us think he did this because he felt golf and architecture was beginning to head down the wrong roads when he wrote what he did.
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Mr. Paul, I see quotes from Behr on Shackelford's blog on a regular basis. Are his articles archived somewhere that a computer goof like myself might be able to find some?
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"Mr. Paul, I see quotes from Behr on Shackelford's blog on a regular basis. Are his articles archived somewhere that a computer goof like myself might be able to find some?"
MarkS:
You should probably direct that quesiton to Geoff Shackelford.
But my take is Geoff may've been the first in modern times to attempt to both search for, collect, analyze and perhaps think to write about Max Behr and his ideas. To me it is still something of a question re how any of this information should be disseminated. Just today I shot an email at Geoff asking him what I think are a few pertinent questions about this.
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Thanks guys...are there any internet links? Or books of collections that might have his thoughts published in them.
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Jay,
You have a pretty solid place near you called the USGA Library. You want to know more, you can IM me.
But then again, with all of this stuff about me being so evil and rotten, you might just think I was sending you on a wild goose chase.
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Tommy,
I'm kinda banking on you having an evil side. Otherwise how else to enjoy Voyage of the Acolyte while chainsawing our way through some abomination of a George Thomas renovation?
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Several of GS's books have Behr quotes. Lines of Charm have quite a few. The USGA archive has alot, but be prepared to sift through alot to find them.
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Kyle, Obviously whomever it was that was "Hacketting" it away to pieces hasn't ever listened to the album, ever!
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I'd simply like to attest to the fact that Tommy Naccarato is the farthest thing from evil and rotten.
Signed,
Jeff Mingay ;)
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Why Thank you Mr. Mingay! Your a gentleman and a colleague! (Jay-speak)
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Jay,
hope this works ?
http://search.la84foundation.org/search?q=golf&Author=Max+H.Behr&Keywords=&btnG=Search+LA84&getfields=*&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&client=default_frontend&filter=0&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&partialfields=Author%3AMax+H.Behr&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&proxyreload=1
Alfie.
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Nope !
Go into la84foundation.org and then search Max H.Behr.
Alfie.
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I wish my two paisan friends would sit down with some 'redder the bedder' vino, and fogettaboudit. Time to give it a rest guys... Tattaglia, Clemenza, the Barzini Bros, even Fredo... they are all gone now... its just time to take care of this 'ting of ours'.
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Tommy - You just can't leave it alone, can you?
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Michael,
I'm being serious, I want to help Jay learn something about Max Behr so he won't misquote the term, Line of Charm again, and again, and again, and again.
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But then again, with all of this stuff about me being so evil and rotten, you might just think I was sending you on a wild goose chase.
Your a gentleman and a colleague! (Jay-speak)
These comments should definitely move the conversation forward in a positive manner... don't you think?
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Miller and Shackelford's "Art of Golf Design" has some excellent Max Behr select writings. (and it's got pichers)
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I thought I read somewhere in the Fazio post that the KING was done with my fellow Orange alum??? Guess I was seeing things.... ::)
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"I wish my two paisan friends would sit down with some 'redder the bedder' vino, and fogettaboudit. Time to give it a rest guys... Tattaglia, Clemenza, the Barzini Bros, even Fredo... they are all gone now... its just time to take care of this 'ting of ours'."
RJ:
Of course I have no idea who you're referring to. I hope it has nothing to do with the on-going discussion about the philosophy of Max Behr.
"this 'ting of ours'"?
Any of you really want to find the "Keys to the Kingdom" (of truly understanding ultimate excellence in golf architecture)? Any of you want to find and see the real Mother Lode, the true Promised Land, the Sunlit Uplands?
If you do, find, read, reread, then read again and come to truly understand the articles of Max H. Behr!!
If you can do all that you will be Free at Last---AND You Will THANK GOD ALMIGHTY that you are FREE AT LAST.
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Michael,
How is that picking on Jay? Sorry I don't see it.
Fact: Jay calls anyone that writes on this website that he would like to quote, "his colleague". What is so wrong about that, that I tried to add some levity to the situation?
Come on Michael, at the very least you of all people should realize that a open hand--especially when it comes to the subtleties of discussion of golf architecture should be at least pondered.
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Jay
Alfie's already mentioned the only source I know of, except I get to it by going to the amateur athletic foundation los angeles (www.aafla.org). If you got to the "digital archive" link, then to "periodicals", then to "L84 Foundation Search", you can select "American Golfer" and "Golf Illustrated" and then search by keyword/subject or author's name -- both Behr and Crane as authors bring up many articles. But I think those are only a small fraction of their output, and an even smaller fraction of their 'debate'...but I think there are at least a couple from each man that gives a good picture of their basic approach...
Peter
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I'll check the links shortly,guys. Thanks. Have we compiled a list of his courses? How are they preserved? Are any still as he designed them back in the day?
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I recall from years ago Michigan State also had some of his writtings online.
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Clearly, I'm completely fascinated by Max Behr and his articulated philosophy about golf and architecture but do I believe he was infallible--do I believe he got it all right?
Not really.
He railed constantly against what he called the "game mind of man" in golf and architecture. He seemed to suggest that that mentality would lead to "standardizations" and a loss of "feeling" for the game and the ever increasing inclusion of a "scientific" and "logical" approach to all things to do with the game and it's playing field.
I believe that perhaps even 95% of the participants on this website are afflicted in various ways with what Behr referred to as "the game mind of man", probably including me.
So, no, as fascinated as I am with Max H. Behr, I guess I don't believe he and his philosophy was infallible----and I think that just could be a God-Damned shame! ;)
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TEP, you are close enough to Jersey to be able to speak the language... ::)
ting, like in cosa, like in ours, like as in nostra...
I have no doubt that you have seen the promised land. Give hope a chance brother.
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TE
you know what my latest thinking is on that?
I think Max Behr won the battle, but lost the war. I think he was RIGHT, but we can't see that anymore. Those who won the war stacked the deck it, i.e. against anyone ever again being able to fully understand/experience what Behr was talking about.
How's that for a little high falutin bit of speculation? :)
Peter
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"TEP, you are close enough to Jersey to be able to speak the language... ;D
RJ:
I'm close to Jersey, brother, but I'll never be close enough to speak that language. Of course we are talking some distinctions here---Northern Jersey is what you're referring to. Compared to North Jersey, South Jersey is like a foreign country. ;)
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TE
you know what my latest thinking is on that?
I think Max Behr won the battle, but lost the war. I think he was RIGHT, but we can't see that anymore. Those who won the war stacked the deck it, i.e. against anyone ever again being able to fully understand/experience what Behr was talking about.
How's that for a little high falutin bit of speculation? :)
Peter
This sounds interesting. In what way do you mean, Peter? I'm a Behr neophyte compared to the rest of you, so go slow for me so I can keep up!
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"TE
you know what my latest thinking is on that?
I think Max Behr won the battle, but lost the war. I think he was RIGHT, but we can't see that anymore. Those who won the war stacked the deck it, i.e. against anyone ever again being able to fully understand/experience what Behr was talking about.
How's that for a little high falutin bit of speculation?"
Peter:
Nope, No Siree, I've gotta disagree with you there.
I think Behr and his writing won the first skirmish hands down but there may not have been enough around at that point to notice. I believe Crane then went on to win the battle, but, THE WAR, my friend, is not yet over!
Have you met this exciting new tactical and strategic genius from Atlanta, Georgia, Lt General Robert Algernon Crosby? When he tracks down and conquers the enemy, to their astoundment and enjoyment, he just lets them go to proceed with any option they choose. His modus wins converts without fail.
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I'll check the links shortly,guys. Thanks. Have we compiled a list of his courses? How are they preserved? Are any still as he designed them back in the day?
Victoria
RSFGC (I just played there w/ Jon Spaulding again on Fri)
Lakeside
Montecito
Montebello
Oakmont (Glendale)
....and there are a few others.
Victoria is the least changed from what TN has shown me. Montecito is about to be totally bulldozed by Nicklaus, so the little of Behr that is left will be gone forever there. RSFGC has had so many arch's there that it's difficult to "peel away" the work of others and see it. The routing is somewhat intact with the exception of 18. Jon Spaulding can chime in with Victoria. I've seen some of it, but from what he's seen, number 1 there is totally different and I think he said 18. Everything else is close. Lakeside was wiped out by the flood of 1937. You can see it in some of Bobby Jones instructional movies, pre flood. It looked magnificent.
Behr's work has probably been mauled more than any other from the GA. A sad story considering he was right up there with the greats of that time.
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Mike - thanks, but I'm a neophtye too; all that I know about Behr I've learned here on this site, from gents like TE, Bob Crosby and Tommy N. So I was being a little cheeky with my bold statement there. But for what it's worth, what I'm suggesting is that the kind of courses and golfing experience Behr was talking about and hoping to engender never got built and never got experienced; or should I say, never had a fighting chance against the overwhelming number of other kinds of courses that were built after WWII. Which is to say, since we're all shaped by our experiences and environment (in golf as in everything else), and since most of us have spent most of our time playing courses that are NOT the Behrian ideal, it would suprise me if we COULD appreciate the kind of golfing experience that Behr was trying to describe.
A lot of words, Mike, for not a very big point...and even then, please don't take my word for it.
Peter
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If you do, find, read, reread, then read again and come to truly understand the articles of Max H. Behr!!
If you can do all that you will be Free at Last---AND You Will THANK GOD ALMIGHTY that you are FREE AT LAST.
Tom I --
I'm glad you've given this discussion a religious twist -- because my
first thought, upon seeing the question posed in the title of this thread,
was: "In the lowest levels of Hell."
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Hey peter...so can you tell me if he actually built any courses that still exist today?
I checked out LA foundation...OMG! That book of hours was amazing!
Theres a religious term too...a book of hours was a prayer book with the set psalms for a given day...Brother william! Maybe Behr was channeling Eco!
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TE,
Lt General Robert Algernon Crosby?!
Oh man, am I ever embarrassed. I've just been calling him Bob. Luckily, he's been too fine a gentlemen to stand on ceremony, and to call me out.
The war might not be over, you're right TE. But it does seem like a long road back....and I'm not even sure back to WHERE yet
Peter
Jay - no, see my post to Mike. But I think David S has a handle on it. And yes, even casual reading of some of Behr's writing suggest to me that he had been steeped in religious writing at some point in his life, even if he wasn't (or was, I don't know) a religious man later in life. Maybe it's just me, but I hear echos of the transcendent everywhere in his writing.
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I thought I just answered that.
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Peter:
In this entire Crane vs Behr et al debate that has to do with the 20th century direction in golf there is something still there that essentially it was all fought over. And that is, of course, TOC---that supposed prototype of all golf architecture, that for whatever reasons no golf architect has ever really dared to truly emulate. Is that an oversight, a lack of guts or the "game mind of man"? And, so, the beat goes on! ;)
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I thought I just answered that.
our posts must have crossed in the mail, I just saw it...thanks. have we any pictures?
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"Tom I --
I'm glad you've given this discussion a religious twist -- because my
first thought, upon seeing the question posed in the title of this thread,
was: "In the lowest levels of Hell."
Dan:
Hopefully some day you can free yourself from the mind-numbing strictures of editorism and find a way to proceed to the sunlit uplands of golf architecture nirvana.
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Didn't Behr start his believe in/start his own religion based on numbers, although it wasn't like numerology?
You have to like a guy who thinks this:
"For pleasure's sake I would rather play a four-ball match, but I consider the foursome as a far higher form of the game for the following reasons: It is distinctive from the twosome
where the four-ball is not. It demands a method of play peculiarly its own; that is, your partner's game has always to be taken into consideration. This may be said of the four-ball, but its application is different.
The pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature. The perplexities as to the right method of
play, together with the difficulties of a course, are the obstacles one has to contend with. Now, your partner is just one more moral hazard. The attitude which he assumes toward you, and how you allow it to take effect, has largely to do with the way you play. Therefore, the interchange of sympathy is greater, and the game is placed on a higher mental plane. It gives both the good and the bad.
The general opinion seems to be that we prefer the four-ball because we get more play. There is something underlying this. Generally speaking, we have not, nor do we take
enough time in anything to appreciate its fine points. The foursome may be compared to a fine old wine that must be sipped and taken slowly to appreciate; the four-ball to a cocktail, a heterogeneous combination of liquors taken in one gulp, pleasing to the taste, but bad for the system. And I really think the four-ball is contrary to the finer points of the game or its system. It tends to minimize the responsibilities of the golfer. If this is true, the four-ball is contrary to the very charm and essence of golf, which is the practice of self restraint." - M. Behr
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From RSFGC.....
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/House073.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/House074.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/House075.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/House078.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/House079.jpg)
(http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/dlk1992/House080.jpg)
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Jim
thanks very much for that. I've never read it before, and it also shows how good and clear and affecting a writer Behr could be. And what really strikes me is that the man who wrote that wasn't some casual golfer or golfing philosopher - he was a top-flight champion, one who also knew all about -- and was very succesful at -- the 'competitive' aspects of the game. I think he was just much more well-rounded and sane than most.
Peter
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"The pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature."
OH MY GOD!
(Dare I ask what he thought the 'weak side of human nature' was?)
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I don't think Max would have like Ivan Bosky's term, 'greed is good' if that is what you mean, Tom.
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"The pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature."
OH MY GOD!
(Dare I ask what he thought the 'weak side of human nature' was?)
Hmmmm...
This reminds me of General Ripper in "Dr. Strangelove." Did Behr ever write of "purity of essence?"
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"This reminds me of General Ripper in "Dr. Strangelove." Did Behr ever write of "purity of essence?"
Richard the Quintuple Obtuse:
YOU remind me of General Ripper in Dr. Strangelove!
Why don't you just finally admit it---that the only reason you incessantly quip and joke about Max H. Behr is because the man and his prescient mind is simply entirely too challenging for you?
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""The pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature."
I wonder if Behr could've as easily said;
The pleasure in the practice of golf course architecture lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature."
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Tom
As long as you dredge up quotes like the above, I'll keep on quippin'. They deserve no less.
Rich
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David those pix are great, thanks!
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"Tom
As long as you dredge up quotes like the above, I'll keep on quippin'. They deserve no less."
Rich:
I realize that completely. Mental myopia is a real condition. From you I've never expected more.
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Those photos of Behr's RSFGC look OK but perhaps I was born too late.
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Jay,
Down in Port St. Lucie in Florida go to the Otto Probst Library. It is part of the Museum of the PGA of America. They have a more complete and extensive collection of the early golf magazines than the USGA as well as course histories from almost every one of the courses that published them bfore 1970 and may, if not most, since then. They also have a quite extensive book collection.
The basis for the library was the collection from the estate of Otto probst, purchased in the late 1970's. Probst was long considered to have had the most inclusive and complete personal library of any and everything golf in the world for many years before he died.
It is only there that one can see the only copy of the last issue of Golf Illustrated (September 1935) from with Tilly's own handwritten message in pencil on the front cover that says, "This issue never circulated. I resigned as editor last month."
The best thing about researching there is you will be able to have full hands-on with the materials and the ability to MAKE COPIES! :o
If you're interested in going down let me know and I'll let you know who to contact.
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I'd love to thanks! I go to Port St. Lucie alot to play the Dye course, so that would be a nice side trip. Contact me at my yahoo, email please. I'd love to talk to you about that and about Philly as well. Thanks.
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Dan:
Hopefully some day you can free yourself from the mind-numbing strictures of editorism and find a way to proceed to the sunlit uplands of golf architecture nirvana.
Ain't gonna, McGee!
Even if I could work up the energy to hack through the thickets of his sentences, I could not *begin* to take golf seriously enough to enjoy Mr. Behr's allegedly sunlit uplands.
I'm just never gonna connect with a guy who could write that "the pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint" (whatever the hell he meant by that!).
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"I'm just never gonna connect with a guy who could write that "the pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint" (whatever the hell he meant by that!)."
Dan:
That's too bad but suit yourself.
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"The pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature."
OH MY GOD!
(Dare I ask what he thought the 'weak side of human nature' was?)
Tantric Golf anyone?
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8) Tantric soccer too? Definitley not very american!
i immediately downloaded the LA84 collection.. and will get to probst library in Port St.Lucie some day... that's what makes this site so great, who would have known these west & east coast resources..?
frankly, its the language of Behr that either one loves or hates.. some .. too much the queen's type english, they'd rather the king's.. or give em some rock&roll emotion and bad grammar.. gonzo style..
one has to suspect such carefully crafted words..
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Well, maybe it is because I have no formal training in the writing arts, can't diagram a sentence, and don't read Shakespeare, but I am stumped at what Dan finds clumsey or ill written about that quote.
"The pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature."
Now, perhaps it means different things to different people. It does resonate with me, however. So, I'll go first... As I alluded to above, to me it means that one who pursues the game for pleasure, eventually finds a mindset that allows oneself to play in that pleasure zone. Behr suggests that part of the mindset must be self restraint. Or, playing within ones capabilities, and not over reaching. Or, as he said, 'self restraint'. The weak side of human nature to me is greed. On the golf course, greed is going for too much on a shot, overreaching and more often than not coming up short and thus ruining what would have been a better result, had you not been greedy and overextended on a shot you thought you 'might' make in order to steal a stroke from what you probably would have made with a self-restrained strategy. Reaching for the improbably, possible, have done it before, but at the far greater risk of bogey or double+ is probably my ruination.
What about your interpretations? Particularly yours, Dan.
Discalimer: All gramatical considerations in the above post were omitted due to errors, omissions, and lack of a quality educational effort, when author attended school. ::) ;) ;D
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Dick --
That passage is more clearly written than most of the (little) Behr I've read. (There's NOTHING in that single line you've quoted that's clumsy or ill-written.)
Here's my point: I can't -- or at least won't -- take golf that seriously! I can't -- or at least won't -- take it as seriously as Behr did, or as seriously as you and many others here do! (No offense intended -- as I'm sure you already know.) I can't -- or at least won't -- devote the energy necessary to deconstruct Max Behr.
It's my anti-intellectual side coming out, I guess.
I propose the Behr Line, as one means of identifying two "types" in this Treehouse.
Some of you are on one side of the Behr Line. Some of us are on the other.
Of course the twain can meet, and often have, and always will -- happily so.
Dan
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Good post, RJ
I think anger (unjustified) is also a good one. The line Arnold Palmer said to one of his angry/frustrated pro-am partners always stuck with me, i.e. "You're not good enough to get that angry". I think we also need to (or are best served by) restraing our fear (at the demands of the next shot), our regrets (for the poor shot we just played), our pride (in our insistence at proving we're the better man, instead of playing our own game), our distracted minds (as in not being present to the present moment and its duties), and our self-pity (at how much better we'd be if we could only practice or if the bad back got better). I'd bet there are more examples...and the self-restraint more necessary and difficult in golf than in other sport because we're not reacting to anything or anyone else, and have plenty of time between shots for our less-helpful emotions to play out, or not. When Jack Nicklaus talks about his mind being one of his greatest strengths, maybe he meant something like that; I think Tiger is even better at it than Jack was. (I'm sure that one of Tiger's most secret weapons is that he does some kind of yoga).
Peter
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"You're not good enough to get that mad"...
and...
he..."who pursues the game for pleasure, eventually finds a mindset that allows oneself to play in that pleasure zone"...
Are more interconnected than the two of you might think.
Jack Nicklaus had to enjoy himself to play well. Obviously his "well" is different than yours or mine. I think every tournament golfer would tell you that their best days begin in a relaxed, patient frame of mind.
Not quite greed, I read the "worst side of human nature" to mean overstating or overvaluing yourself. A lack of modesty. It probably plays out on the golf course similarly to greed, but might last longer. I say last longer because we all know immediately when we try a shot beyond our capabilities and get burned. But if we are not honest about our capabilities, it's not so clear why we failed and we're likely to get burned many times by the same situation...
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Probably in the bathroom.
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Probably in the bathroom.
Definitely a part of it...
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Definitely a part of it...
Jim,
No slight to Behr intended, who I find quite fascinating.
It's just that if one is going to attempt the voluminous, verbose Mr. Behr, one best be prepared to spend some quiet, solitary time away from the real world. ;D