Mike, stands to reason that the tee for that hole could have been near the present 7th tee given that the lost 10th hole crossed in that region...
Mark,
I also now understand better what Tillinghast was saying when he talked about a number of potentially dangerous blind shots, especially for the many beginning golfers not fully aware of proper etiquette.
I think there is a real chance that the next mayor will find ways to fix many of the city problems that the present mayor has proven wholly incapable of doing. There are all sorts of methods to upgrade Cobb's Creek GC, including as you say a mixture of public and private money. It is possible that the USGA might make a grant (as they did at Glen Mills) timed with the Walker Cup or US Open that will be held in the region over the next 5 years.
"Costs to city golfers should be kept lower, but out of city players would pay significantly higher fees (similar to Bethpage), and perhaps even some type of formal clubs established."
Are you proposing some sort of UK model where there might be some private clubs (made up of public golfers) with some privileges on the public course? This could generate some additional revenue to the course (a portion of the club's fees goes to the course in favor of some prime tee times or other privileges) and also generate a lot more pride and a sense of connection to the course.
Mike:
Are you familiar with the Thompson brothers (Andy and Ray)---two really fine amateur golf champions over the past some decades in this region?
I could be wrong but I seem to recall that Ray Thompson had to do with managing Cobbs and maybe a few of the others in the last decade or so.
I never really talked to him about it specifically but I think it was a pretty daunting task dealing with bunch of small time bureaucrats and the structure that has to do with places like Cobbs.
Mike,
If possible, count me in for a meeting at Cobb's as well.
Thanks,
Geoff
A fully restored #17 at 225 yds. might be one of the best par 3's in the Philadelphia area and it has some stiff competition.
Guys, a question. It's been years since I've seen that part of town. Is it still kind of scary around there? I've heard some wild stories about some golfers experiences while playing there. Would this be a potential sticking point?
Joe,
Can't speak for Mark, but the green is pretty receptive as you're playing well downhill and the green is benched back to front (and side to side) into the hillside.
Of course, it's also small and surrounded by bunkers.
To me, it always brought to mind the sand-locked, long 17th hole par threes at Pebble Beach and Bethpage, only dramatically downhill and visible.
Guys, a question. It's been years since I've seen that part of town. Is it still kind of scary around there? I've heard some wild stories about some golfers experiences while playing there. Would this be a potential sticking point?
David,
It's located in an interesting borderline between very expensive mainline suburbs, working class Upper Darby, and some Philadelphia apartments.
It's got some character, but I've never heard anything related to anyone ever feeling threatened out there, and I was thinking that similar to East Lake, and with an aggressive junior program, perhaps some serious revamping could help to improve the neighborhood.
Plus, there are some serious restaurants nearby with some great local flair.
Guys, a question. It's been years since I've seen that part of town. Is it still kind of scary around there? I've heard some wild stories about some golfers experiences while playing there. Would this be a potential sticking point?
David,
It's located in an interesting borderline between very expensive mainline suburbs, working class Upper Darby, and some Philadelphia apartments.
It's got some character, but I've never heard anything related to anyone ever feeling threatened out there, and I was thinking that similar to East Lake, and with an aggressive junior program, perhaps some serious revamping could help to improve the neighborhood.
Plus, there are some serious restaurants nearby with some great local flair.
Thanks Mike, Perhaps I remembered wrong.
Kyle,
It really isn't. Actually, I now really clearly recall playing from exactly there during the tournament, and yes, it is somewhat reminiscent of 15 at Reading, sans the creek just in front of the green that exists at Reading.
It's also reminiscent of another long 17th hole just down the street by the same architect. ;D
Joe Bausch,
Can you help? I'm not sure how to capture images from Google Maps, but it would be interesting at this juncture to see side by side comparisons of the 17th (from the old tips) at Cobbs Creek versus 17th at that dump up the street that's supposed to hold a US Open in a few years. ;)
Another question - would you add any length to the holes from the original design? I have always thought #2 in particular could benefit from some added distance. #3 would also be a candidate if there was room to do it.
Mark, I'm sure I'll be out to CC relatively soon, but I'm very curious to the exact locations of the tees on the old #12 and #17. I've boxed up both Google maps of each hole. Which quadrant(s) are the original tees located? Here is the old #12, with the green lower left and the current #14 tee upper right:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_old_12_boxed.jpg)
Here is #17, with the green lower right, current tee lower left, and current #6 green near the upper left:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_old_17_boxed.jpg)
Thanks for the info Mark on the tee placements. I know the distances estimated from Google Maps should be taken w/ a grain of salt; my calculated distances are as follows: #12 is about 130, and #17 would be about 200 yards, maybe 210 tops.
Mike,
The guy that did the research for the webpage is no longer with us. I'll call him to find out his sources.
Thanks for the info Mark on the tee placements. I know the distances estimated from Google Maps should be taken w/ a grain of salt; my calculated distances are as follows: #12 is about 130, and #17 would be about 200 yards, maybe 210 tops.
Joe,
It would be nice to see a visual comparison of the 17th at Cobbs versus the 17th down the street built by the same guy. ;)
I can make it that weekend as well. And if Mark cannot, I can show you the old 12th and 17th tees. I went out there today for a quick round in the afternoon and was able to find both, but each took some work. I am so excited about a restoration.... Cobb's would immediately become one of the best public courses in the area if brought back to the 30's version, IMO. Heck, I'll go on record right here and now and state that it could be the best in the area.
Joe,
That's really impressive. Thanks for sharing.
The course looks to be in pretty fine condition...especially considering the situation they're operating under. Or am I just impressed with your photography?
We proposed to the city a few years ago what you mentioned above. A full scale restoration to the original layout with expanded tees, new bunkers, clubhouse expansion and renovation and most importantly a state of the art irrigation system. This would be paid for by a surcharge that would be added to the greens fees. I think that it worked out to city residents paying a peak fee of $40 and non city residents (which make up over 80% of my play) would pay a peak fee of $65. We presented this with plans for every step of the process and even had funding in place. All the city had to do was sign off on it, of course they didn't citing several reasons that to me made no sense.
So what's the story? What time and where are we meeting? the high on Saturday looks like 39* with winds from the NW up to 13mph. Perfect for a walk around, but not sure if I have time to play. If we meet up early enough, I'm up to play a bit of golf, but I won't be able to play 18 holes.
I might be late as well, I have a dinner party the night before ;)
I may try and make it as well, I'm 50/50 at this point but should know more tommorow.
I'm completely embarrased to say I've never played Cobbs.
Jason
Can someone explain how I post a photo on a reply.
I want to show a picture I recently took at Cobbs?
Thanks
Can someone explain how I post a photo on a reply.
I want to show a picture I recently took at Cobbs?
Thanks
2. Your question about the location of the green for the current #8/old #13 intrigues me. I've looked at Google maps to see what I think is Cobb's Creek running at the edge of the driving range, which makes your question so good. But I've played w/ some guys at McCall that indicate the creek goes through their course! Can that be true?
I thought some would find it interesting if I took the Google aerial photo of the course now and compare it to what I think is close to the routing from the 30's as described by Mark and Mike. I know these diagrams sure helped my comparison.
Here is "Cobb's Now", where I've used rectangles to indicate where tees are, and circles for greens. Remember that holes 1-5 really haven't changed much, hence I cropped that part of the figure.
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/cobbs_now_800.jpg)
And here is approximately the routing in the 30's (with the holes numbered properly) on top of the current layout:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/cobbs_then_take2_800.jpg)
I just love the original routing. ;D
Two NLEs on that aerial. One NW of McCall and one in the upper right along City Ave.
GDub,
That photo is a great find. Perhaps your eyes are better than mine, but I can't see the #4 green being in a much different position in that photo than it is now. But that 1930's photo that Mark showed us today sure suggests it is on the 'other side' of the creek with the tee likely up on the hill. Mike, help us out here!
And Kyle and I have been chatting about this all evening. If the #4 green was just east of the current location (so sort of an island green), that make sense for #5 being a par 5 as Mark suggested as I think he said he heard (or had an old scorecard) it was 480 yards. The current #5 tee from the tips is just a bit over 400 yards, I think about 420. So for #5 to be approaching 500 yards suggests another long lost tee is up on the hill maybe 40 yards due south of the current 17th green. Gosh, #5 would have been an interesting par 5. I assume you would hit a tee shot just past or around the current #4 green, then play your 2nd shot left or right of the creek, then a short shot in. Maybe I have this all messed up. If so, I'll delete this post later. :)
I'm now looking at an aerial MikeC provided (the one numbered 12585 in the bottom right corner) and together w/ the link Geoff provided, I'm really wondering about an alternative for the way holes #4 and 5 ran. In your aerial Mike it seems there could be a corridor for the 4th hole to run where the tee box would be almost due south, and little west, from where we think the green was at one time. Then I wonder if the 5th tee was near the creek west of 4 green, perhaps even over the creek, and this hole then plays at a much different angle currently.
Mark, your thoughts?
That walking path is what got me thinking of this.
That walking path is what got me thinking of this.
Joe,
Take a look at 05598, as well.
I think we are on to something here Mike!
At least that area is in Delaware County so tree clearing shouldn't be an issue! ;D
Here is a pic that shows how old #9 at Cobb's might look like (if only Photoshop had a 'tree removal' button!), which is from current tee #14 to the 7th green:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_old_9.jpg)
My rangefinder suggests it would be about 360 yards long, maybe 390 from the back tees.
Sorry Wayne, but I'll have to make this a little clearer.
We don't want to remove the dams up stream, we need catch basins and coffer dams to slow the water down as it approaches the 11th green. This would also help control the flow down to Cobbs.
At one time we thought about a diversion into the quarry in front of #17 tee.
Much of this run-off starts up at Villanova, from the parking lot. So we might have to get Joe involved.
Joe,
I certainly agree there is more fun research to be done by you research geeks. But, I think we all agree that Cobbs can be recovered and that the political work won't be as fun but more necessary and that we know enough architecturally now to develop a plan of action.
Joe,
Are you speculating that one walked along the creek from #3 to the #4 tee without crossing back over and that #4 tee could have been on that side of the creek ?
Is it possible that the walking bridge was how one approached #4 from the left of the creek and that the lighter shaded oval in back and to the right of #4 green was #5 tee?
The few trees visible in various locations in back of the supposed #4 green seem not to leave many options. Unless it was much closer to #17 green and played as a dogleg.
No sense in waiting for firm evidence when rank speculation is so much fun!
Come on guys, think outside the box.
Public course, shortish par 3 prone to flooding.
You seriously don't think he could have built two greens there?
...just a thought.
Mike, your 10 year old card indicating #5 being 493 yards from the back tees just baffles me. We should have spent more time in that area on Saturday to unravel this mystery. I might just have to make another trip out there soon for a reconnaissance mission.
Mike, your 10 year old card indicating #5 being 493 yards from the back tees just baffles me. We should have spent more time in that area on Saturday to unravel this mystery. I might just have to make another trip out there soon for a reconnaissance mission.
Joe,
Check what I just added to my earlier statement about #4 above.
I'm now going to go dig out the older scorecard, which is about 25 years old or so.
Joe,
I honestly don't know where it would exactly fit, but if I were to speculate, I think the tee would be just to the left of the service road (which then crosses in front of the tee), playing at around 160 yards.
I say that based on the big tree in front of today's tee (which seems to make the current hole routing improbissible ;) ), and the fact that aerial 05598 from 1930 seems to clearly indicate a nice size northwest flowing corridor to what looks like the site of the island, and the service road is clearly visible there as well.
Damn, we need to get a blowup of that aerial.
I also am beginning to think that #5 played much like it does today, although I'm open to learning otherwise. ;D
Joe,
Yes, and that we could purchase. They actually have a treasure trove of golf course aerials from the 20s thru the 40s, covering most every course in the region. That's where the larger aerials that Mark showed us were located.
Geoffry
1928 Publinks - wow. If No.5 was a Par 4 then the tee position is less of a challange - it could be in the same position as today's back tee (and both now and then an awesome hole). To tell you the truth when Geoff and I walked up near the 17th green to see if we could imagine a tee up there - to me it was unpleasing to the eyes. No choice but to layup short of the bridge. A Par 4 425 yard hole from the current back tee (that gets used today about once a year) is so much more strategic.
Now imagine the 5th tee as above, and the position of the 4th green (as an island green) makes more sense in that it is out of harms way and a short walk from 4th green to 5th tee.
The only thing thats bugging me is that I am just not seeing the 4th tee in the aerial pic. in the spot we all hope it is. What a great trio of holes that would have been - the short Par 4 3rd hole with the approach to a small green with old man Cobb's arm wrapped around her right waist; an island green 4th and a monster Par 4 with Mr. Cobb splitting the fairway.
Bill,
The present 14 at 600 yards would be close to the then 9/10 yardages because you are going somehat left on 9 and back somewhat right on 10. I wonder if they were concerned about the blind teeshots from #6 and moved #9 tee up.
No wait - I retract. Am I reading this right?
We thought 14 was a Par 4 (todays 9th) with the tee in the Driving Range Parking Lot - This says it was a 175 yard one shotter.
And 17 - 450 yards???
What did we miss guys?
I'm having a hard time believing that Wilson would make a golfer walk all the way through the valley on today's #17 just to get to the 18th tee. Is there a possibility that the yardages and pars are wrong?
Joe, can you post the entire article? I'd like to read it in it's entirety.
Mark
Joe, can you post the entire article? I'd like to read it in it's entirety.
Mark
This is amazing! I would have never guessed that 17 was not original. Joe, well done and thank you for bring light to this.
Now here's the question. Can we find the site of the new original 14th green?
Mark
Why was the green for the lost #13 not set on the creek like the current 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th holes? It seems like a par 5 with the creek meandering down the entire left side and a green set where the current batting cages are makes for a better hole (think a longer version of #5 at Merion). Couple that with the next tee located in the current parking lot and it becomes more walkable. Is it possible that green was moved up the hill at some point?
The big question is....Who designed today's #17.
If #17 is kept I get more interested that #18 tee should be just in back of #17 green with a blind tee shot down into the valley for that tricky approach to #18 green. It also would eliminate that long walk to #18 tee.
Boys
My head is spinning a little with all the re-re routing we've done over the past 2 days.
Can someone verify the following starting with the 13th.
13 - 450 yard - Par 4
Tee left of Todays 6th Green - Fairway adjacent to the creek and green somewher near the current baseball batting cages.
14 - 175 yard - Par 3
Lost tee and green but parrallell to City Ave. (could this have played to the current 8th green?
If not - then the 8th green was put in somewhere between 1916 and the mid 1930's - right
15 - 360 yard - Par 4
Current 9th hole except tee is approixmately 100 yards further back.
16 - 315 yard - Par 4
current 10th hole
17 - 450 yard Par 4
Current 11th hole
18 - 380 yard - Par 4
Current 18th hole but tee approx. 30 yards further back
Is that right?
Build 'em both. Rotate the routings around day to day, and use one as an emergency green if need be.
Hell, play a 19 hole course, set a precedent. ;)
As it stands now #9 and #16 bracket the back and forth holes #10 thru #15. While there are some fine holes there the original routing beats the daylights out of this routing by breaking up this rotation , adding several different angles to that part of the property , and interjecting some par threes into the rotation as well.
I'm waking up in the middle of the night thinking about this stuff! How sick is that??!?!? ;)
What the Pho???????
You're a mess..... :)
Joe,
This is indeed exciting.
Basically, we're unearthing something that hasn't been known for at least 60 years, and going back to the very inception of the course almost a century ago. :o
I'm waking up in the middle of the night thinking about this stuff! How sick is that??!?!? ;)
I think the 17th in that routing is that long because the tee was right behind the 16th (present 10th) green.
The news on the 4th is wild...If we can locate the tee, based on yardage, we should be able to determine where the green was.
The rest sounds about right, and really, really exciting.
Any word on our friend Hugh Wilson? ;D
No direct evidence yet Wayne, errr, Mike. ;)
This article again mentions the course being laid out by Mr. Jesse T. Vodges, chief engineer of the Fairmont Park Commission. My semi-informed guess: he had to get some help, and that help may have been substantial from some talented people (read: HW).
No direct evidence yet Wayne, errr, Mike. ;)
This article again mentions the course being laid out by Mr. Jesse T. Vodges, chief engineer of the Fairmont Park Commission. My semi-informed guess: he had to get some help, and that help may have been substantial from some talented people (read: HW).
Joe,
That's why I was asking Mark about the source of the article on the GolfPhilly website that states;
According to a contemporary newspaper account, "Much credit is due to Hugh Wilson of the Merion Cricket Club, who drew the design for the course, and to A.B. Smith of the Huntingdon Valley Cricket Club and Jesse T. Vodges, Chief Engineer of the Park, who supervised the actual construction of the links."
I'd really like to find that one to nail this down once and for all.
Joe,
Mark mentioned that the person who found that article is no longer working for them, but he also noted that he'd try to reach him to find the source.
I'm sure there is something there because i find it beyond credulity that this is simply myth perpetuated over the past century without any factual basis.
Also, the use of the creek indicates someone who knows what the heck they were doing...not some simple "Park Engineer".
This is as vitally important as the Tillinghast/Burbeck controversy...probably more so given that Wilson only had a few courses to prove his genius, while Tilly had a bushel-load!
Joe,
You indeed rock, my man!!! ;D
I'd love to have a copy of the PDF, and I may just get it framed. ;D
Thanks so much for your diligent efforts!!!!!!
Joe,
Please send me a copy as well. So you think Vodges was simply the man that oversaw the construction of the golf course according to the designs of Wilson, Klauder and Smith?
Joe,
Thanks...I'm guessing it's at my work email in which case I'll see it first thing in the morning (way too soon! ;))
Joe,
I don't seem to have it unless I missed it in the 5 Miles Walk article.
George Crump, Hugh Wilson, and AH Smith designed Cobbs Creek?!?!?!?
Maybe this will get Tom Paul over here and out of the self-referential GCA celebrities threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
He wants research??...
We'll give him stinkin' research!! ;D
This is the golf course nerd equivalent of finding that Elvis Presley co-wrote "A Day In The Life" with Lennon and McCartney!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Very interesting guys...just remember, Dave Moriarty and Tom MacWood had more evidence that linked CBM to Merion than this...
Got another article! Here is the citation:
Headline: Drives and Putts Being Gossip About Golf and Golfers; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 01-09-1916; Volume: 174; Issue: 9; Page: 21
And guess who else was involved with Cobb's? No great surprise, I think: Crump.
Here is the relevant part of the article:
"One of the leading members had a great deal to do with the municipal course in Cobb's Creek Park, which was laid out by A.H. Smith, George Crump, Hugh Wilson and others, and he was greatly impressed with what the experts did."
What sort of help do you think you might need from the Fairmount Park Commission?
I really like the names attributed to the writers of those articles: Verdant Green and Joe Bunker.
How many rounds does Cobbs get?
What would be a realistic maximum?
The Fairmount Park Commission will be the most important and effective group to energize...but you'll need the solution after you've presented the problem...
We often talk on this site about how important routing is to the quality of a golf course. When we see the original Cobbs or the slightly different one of a few years later it is all about the routing.
I think that the old routing would appeal much more to golfers seeking fun and challenge. Call it the Philly Doak Scale---willing to travel 30 miles to play!!! I can see some of those in the Bethpage Black parking lot pulling out and driving to Philly. (BTW the old Cobbs routing kicks BB's ass.)
This transformation might show some of the doubters on this site that quality architecture is a factor in the success of some public courses. The average avid golfer might not talk about great architecture like we do, but they know it when they play it.
None of our efforts would be worth the time if we did not feel that this course must be restored.
Anybody interested in joining me for a round at Cobb's this weekend? Both days are predicted to be 45° or so and sunny. We could walk the course and do some navigating, which would be a blast w/ all this new knowledge.
"Laid out" could mean any number of things from constructed, designed, agronomic consultations, or helped hit test shots.
Remember, newspapers are written for laymen in very general terms. Let's be careful with specific attributions. Perhaps the only thing Crump did was hit test shots and offer opinions on landing areas.
We need a "point man" kind of attribution.
"IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME..."[/color]
Ultimately, this is going to boil down to how much money can be made on the investment. Think of feasibility first, then move on to the attribution.
Jim,
You should have Joe Bausch email you the articles he has found. My sense is that noblesse oblige was a big factor in those days. Today I'm not sure that value is as prevalent.
The wild thing about the old descriptions of the 13th I've been reading is that it was a blind shot, with the golfer having to negotiate "hills".
I'm beginning to wonder if the slope from the current seventh green didn't end less abruptly than is the case at present, but instead ran over into the range for a bit.
It shouldn't be very difficult to get an original topographical map of the area to understand the degree and placement of contour(s) prior to the US Army coming in and leveling the joint.
Of course, where does one get the fill to recreate that is a large question. :-\
Also, just recalled Bill's query as to whether George Fazio was the one who did the re-routing in the 40s.
My guess is that's just legend, simply because I know GF was not involved in any golf course design work until the early 60s, and I was told by his mentor that even then he was very uncertain about his ability to work in this field. He would have also been about 30 years old in 1942, hardly the venerated golf "expert" he was to become later.
It shouldn't be very difficult to get an original topographical map of the area to understand the degree and placement of contour(s) prior to the US Army coming in and leveling the joint.
Of course, where does one get the fill to recreate that is a large question. :-\
Also, just recalled Bill's query as to whether George Fazio was the one who did the re-routing in the 40s.
My guess is that's just legend, simply because I know GF was not involved in any golf course design work until the early 60s, and I was told by his mentor that even then he was very uncertain about his ability to work in this field. He would have also been about 30 years old in 1942, hardly the venerated golf "expert" he was to become later.
I wonder if his nephew would know? Does Tom frequent this Board?
Bob
What might be the tax advantages for a business in the city to benefit from their participation in a reconstruction project like Cobbs ? Is this something that the city might offer a reduction in their city taxes for participation ?
Willie -
We are structuring things so contributions will be treated as charitable donations to a 501(c)(3) organization. We have set up a conservancy for that purpose.
Bob
Also, just recalled Bill's query as to whether George Fazio was the one who did the re-routing in the 40s.
My guess is that's just legend, simply because I know GF was not involved in any golf course design work until the early 60s, and I was told by his mentor that even then he was very uncertain about his ability to work in this field. He would have also been about 30 years old in 1942, hardly the venerated golf "expert" he was to become later.
It's now mostly about #13. I suggest those of us with an interest get back out there and knock around fairway location for that hole.
I read some interest in using the creek on the left, even possibly having an alternate green over there.
It's now mostly about #13. I suggest those of us with an interest get back out there and knock around fairway location for that hole.
I read some interest in using the creek on the left, even possibly having an alternate green over there.
Mike,
Thanks for the teaser on that. My suggestion was to use the original fairway corridor for the old #13 but wishbone the end of the fairway with one leg going to the old #13 green (current #8 green) and the other leg to the old #14 green. You could then place the old #14 tee between the fork where it was originally placed. The alternate greens would enable you to play the old routing or keep the current #17 and play every green along the creek including the old 14th. I speculated that if Wilson (and others) had known they would be forced to use the current 17th, they would have designed #13 along the creek ala #13 at Augusta (assuming there were no other issues like flooding).
Having 19 holes would also allow you to shut a hole down on the course for restoration without disrupting play.
Mike/All--
I've spoken with an "old-timer," a good player, who played the city courses for 50 years or so. His recollection is that Fazio came in to do work before Cobbs held the Philadelphia Daily News tourney. That would have been early to mid 1950's.
According to Finegan's GAP book, Fazio was representing the Fairmount Park courses in 1955.
There has also been discussion of another series of articles written under the name "Verdant Green."
So at least we know now that the 17th was constructed between 1921 and 1928 (National Publinks).
Evidently the origins of Cobbs Creek go back further than has been thought. In his February 1909 monthly column under his pseudonym "Hazard" Tilly wrote, "It is quite possible in the near future that Philadelphia will in the enar future offer a public golf course in Fairmount Park to her people. The project has been boomed in the columns of the newspapers..."
In this piece there are gems such as, "The genuine interest of the general public has caused the question to be brought before the city council..."
also "The mayor is quite in sympathy with it and it seems that only the approval and cooperation of the park commissioners are now needed..."
also "Fairmount Park really offers splendid opportunities, for the turf is good and the general conditions are quite in harmony with the golfer's ideals..."
Maybe you guys can see what the Inquirer has in its archives even as far back as the fall of 1908...
By the way, the other man mentioned as "laying out" Cobbs Creek in that article, A.H.(Ab) Smith, was the brother of W.P. Smith who appears to be one of Crump's closest friends and also one of two men (with Father Simon Carr) who seemed to be closest to Crump and what he was doing and what he was thinking about the course through his years of creating Pine Valley.
W.P. Smith appears to have kept something of a dated chronicle on various holes about what Crump was wanting to accomplish.
W.P. Smith's hole by hole recollections of Crump's intentions along with the hole by hole recollections by Father Simon Carr of Crump's intentions together make up what I call "The Remembrances" which the 1921 Advisory Committee that was charged with finishing off the course essentially to Crump's intentions and while working with Hugh Alison used.
W.P Smith and his brother A.H (Ab) Smith were also part of that early group of friends and golfers that frequented Atlantic City CC before the creation of Pine Valley. Those men were also one hand for the birth of the birdie at Atlantic City CC.
W.P Smith was a really good player and probably the best of the lot.
MikeC:
With the rest of your post above, there is a ton of interest there for me.
Can you imagine what and where those named as the architects "laying out" the course were coming from?
Those were men who had nothing to lose by what they were thinking and trying to put on the ground.
These were not men who would have been thinking about what golfers thought about what they did in a business sense----these were men who were not concerned about the "business" of golf course architecture.
These were guys who probably felt they were doing the city and pulbic golf a favor.
We're having our first person to person meeting of this architecture archive at Far Hills this coming Monday.
I'm going to mention this research on Cobbs Creek and it's possible we could sweep together a "design evolution" report on this course that will bring together architecture, history, public golf in the 20th century, sociology etc, etc.
THIS could be really good!
All,
I found an old scorecard. It is dated August 26, 1931. The yardages are as follows.
1. Par 5, 462
2. Par 4, 360
3. Par 4, 300
4. Par 3, 150
5. Par 4, 400
6. Par 4, 380
7. Par 4, 425
8. Par 4, 355
9. Par 4, 387
Out. Par 36, 3209
10. Par 3, 205
11. Par 5, 517
12. Par 3, 130
13. Par 5, 543
14. Par 4, 365
15. Par 4, 280
16. Par 4, 443
17. Par 3, 180
18. Par 4, 380
In. Par 35, 3043
Total. Par 71, 6252
Mark
Mike,
Yes, only one set of tees are listed. Also, the name at the top of the card reads "Cobb's Creek Golf Links". I have also located a card for Karakung. It looks the same so I'm guessing it's from the same time period. Funny thing though is that Karakung is only 11 holes at this point.
Mark
From July 16, 1916 Philadelphia Inquirer:
"The fact that there is a golf course at Cobb's Creek is due entirely to the hard efforts of the Philadelphia Golf Association. It took five years to convince the Fairmount Park Commissioners that there was an actual demand for a public links. And after the plans were decided upon Hugh Wilson, the man who laid out the two Merion courses, spent six months laying out the new public course. A.H. Smith, for years one of the most prominent members of the Huntingdon Valley Country Club, gave up his Sundays for as many months to the work of getting the course in shape."
Questions begged from that statement are whether or not the plans decided upon mean the golf course layout or the decision to finance and build the golf course.
My skepticism from yesterday is fading, but I can't help but wonder if Wilson moving up in the pecking order had something to do with George Crump going Henry David Thoreau at Walden around that time...
Did you get my voicemail?
Yes, I did.
And my voicemail has another nugget of information that you should find interesting...
Apparently Wilson was whoring himself out all over Philadelphia.
Yup...kinda figgered. ;D
You know, this news about Wilson being onsite for six months has me less optimistic that there will be a blueprint found.
Hugh evidently did it in the dirt.
Can you imagine what and where those named as the architects "laying out" the course were coming from?
Those were men who had nothing to lose by what they were thinking and trying to put on the ground.
These were not men who would have been thinking about what golfers thought about what they did in a business sense----these were men who were not concerned about the "business" of golf course architecture.
These were guys who probably felt they were doing the city and pulbic golf a favor.
We're having our first person to person meeting of this architecture archive at Far Hills this coming Monday.
I'm going to mention this research on Cobbs Creek and it's possible we could sweep together a "design evolution" report on this course that will bring together architecture, history, public golf in the 20th century, sociology etc, etc.
THIS could be really good!
Mike & Group--
Congratulations on your finds, this thread is great stuff and why I enjoy Golfclubatlas so much. Keep it up!!!!
Also..
In 1917. the yardages for the holes at Cobbs Creek were;
1 - 462 par five
2 - 300 par four
3 - 300 par four
4 - 150 par three
5 - 400 par four
6 - 380 par four
7 - 425 par four
8 - 355 par four
9 - 387 par four
3150 par 36
10 - 205 par three
11 - 517 par five
12 - 130 par three
13 - 543 par five
14 - 150 par three
15 - 315 par four
16 - 280 par four
17 - 443 par four
18 - 380 par four
2963 par 35
Total 6122 par 71
George Klaudner was my uncle. Therefore I demand that I be paid a portion of every green fee at Ty Cobb Creek since his death. I demand this.
George Klaudner was my uncle. Therefore I demand that I be paid a portion of every green fee at Ty Cobb Creek since his death. I demand this.
Was Klaudner involved with Tillinghast's version of Aronimink?
At what locations were the Aronimink courses?
Joe, Bite your tongue!!!!
(http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/thumb/d/d3/Notre_Dame_logo.gif/200px-Notre_Dame_logo.gif)
Better yet, send me the full size copy so I can add it to my collection. In return, I'll send you both something that will spin both your heads around 360 degrees ala Linda Blair.
Better yet, send me the full size copy so I can add it to my collection. In return, I'll send you both something that will spin both your heads around 360 degrees ala Linda Blair.
Joe,
That third photo shows a nice view of #13 as a par five.
Isn't it strange that all the bunkers are short/long of the green? Simple cut bunkers. I doubt that's Flynn.
Hey Tommy Nac...
Where's that promised thing that's going to make mine and Joe's head spin on an axis? 8)
For instance, Hugh WIlson lived another eight years after Cobbs Creek opened. During that time he never saw fit to come back over and fuss with it.
Doesn't it look like the 9th green (and possibly the 10th tee) would be very much in play for players coming up the 13th?
Kyle,
I had a long talk about that very topic last night with one of the members of our team. I'm of the opinion that the most defensible option would be to only restore Wilson's bunkers. That being said, I have very little problem deepening, slightly expanding or moving them closer to the green surfaces to add a little character.
The tougher question to tackle is whether Hugh ever got the opportunity to bunker the course the way he would have liked. As others have noted, they initially didn't place many hazards on the course for a test period and the existing bunkers on the aerials look rudimentary. If research uncovers that the bunkering was never implemented by Wilson et. al, then I think we at least have to consider letting a seasoned architect some latitude to bunker the course in the "spirit" of Wilson. We are lucky to have a number of articles written by a talented architect describing what Wilson's team was trying to accomplish and their is a sterling example of his work only a few miles away.
Doesn't it look like the 9th green (and possibly the 10th tee) would be very much in play for players coming up the 13th?
Mike,
Maybe the course was just too difficult or the pace of play was too slow for Wilson to go back and bunker it the way he wanted. I think that's the most probable reason. He also may have grown distant from the operators of the golf course, grown weary of the FPC's bureaucracy/restrictions or focused his attention back on other projects. There are a number of reasons that could emerge.
If you look closely at the earliest of those aerials, you can sort of see where the fairway probably used to run and the 9th green and 10th tee would not be very much in play.
Joe,
It may have been even more dangerous with the old tee but I still think it would be in play for the average golfer because the hole doglegs right around that tee and green. I actually was looking at those newer aerials when I thought about posing that question.
Joe,
It may have been even more dangerous with the old tee but I still think it would be in play for the average golfer because the hole doglegs right around that tee and green. I actually was looking at those newer aerials when I thought about posing that question.
Geoffrey,
I thought the same thing but what I think we're forgetting is the topography in that area at the time. Yesterday's 9th green is at one of the highest points of the property, and it sloped downwards towards the creek from there.
So, although it looks to be much in play from a top-down aerial, I'm betting that perched up on that hill it wasn't much of a consideration, especially when the tee was back and too the left as originally built.
The one that concerns me is the old 12th tee and drives coming from the old 6th tee.
I will guarantee you that the pole we saw in the woods held a net at one time. :o
Geoffrey,
I thought the same thing but what I think we're forgetting is the topography in that area at the time. Yesterday's 9th green is at one of the highest points of the property, and it sloped downwards towards the creek from there.
So, although it looks to be much in play from a top-down aerial, I'm betting that perched up on that hill it wasn't much of a consideration, especially when the tee was back and too the left as originally built.
The one that concerns me is the old 12th tee and drives coming from the old 6th tee.
I will guarantee you that the pole we saw in the woods held a net at one time. :o
In the October, 1939 aerial, it appears that small bunker has replaced the creek along the right side of 12...
Mike,
Is the creek bed filled with water?
Maybe it was just a drainage swale at that point?
It would be nice to have a ground level shot of the hole from around that time...[/obvious]
Joe,
Perhaps a forward tee was in front of the creek on 6, or perhaps Mr. Green didn't feel that the creek being directly in front of the tee was "in play?"
I'm not saying you're right or wrong... just seems odd as you said.
Isn't it strange that all the bunkers are short/long of the green? Simple cut bunkers; all on the low side (except 16, flat). Pretty rudimentary features; I doubt that's Flynn.
From the first article Joe discovered:
"The island was made by cutting through a slurceway (sp), a short distance at one side. The shaft was made rather to prevent the green being damaged at freshet (sp) time than to provide the island formation without which few links are now considered complete."
It sounds like it was created due to flood issues and was probably dry for much of the year. The tee shot was played over the ditch, rather than the creek.
Interesting to note the last line of the quotation which seems to contradict the notion that the first island green was created right around this time.
From the first article Joe discovered:
Interesting to note the last line of the quotation which seems to contradict the notion that the first island green was created right around this time.
"In 1917, as his reputation was growing, Tillinghast was brought in to add a second nine. He did, including what might be the original island hole in the United States: the par-3 15th, known locally as the "moat" hole."
Isn't there a pretty good photo of the old 12th in Shackelford's Golden Age of Golf? I don't have it with me, but I'll take a look later.
Are there rowhomes in the background now from that angle on #12 ?
Mike,
That sounds about right. Let me add though that there are hundreds of other trees that need to be cleared. Many greens and most tees do not recieve enough sunlight or air flow. Also, it would be in the best interest to rebuild all of the greens, tees and bunkers to bring them up to modern specs. IMO the two biggest parts of this is going to be fixing the flooding issues and irrigation/drainage. No small task.
Mark
It looks from the pictures that in playing the old 13th, the position of today's 7th green (old 9th) might not be as dangerously in play as it may look from the old aerials. Did you get a good sense of that?
Joe,
After all of our speculation, I'm now pretty confident that the 4th hasn't changed much, but Mark Susko did mention that the old-timers said the tee was back up the hill a little and to the right of today's tee.
Great to hear that there is no danger inherent in the old routing of 13 if we can get it restored.
Did 14 look like a hole that would be worth restoring? As much as I'd love to see it happen (and progress with 19 holes), it does look like EPA city in there. Perhaps Bill Hagel knows what might be possible?
Also, did you get the sense of whether the old 12th tee would have been in the firing range from the old 6th tee? That was my other major concern.
Kyle,
Most of the greens were in pretty terrific shape when we were there a few weeks ago.
It certainly shows how we must walk the Cobbs Creek down from Nova to the Cobbs course to find catch basins that will slow down the flooding in a deluge !
Regarding the 4th: I don't think those 'old timers' that Mark refers to were around before 1930. We know the course changed pretty quickly after it opened. We need to get out there again to bounce ideas off each other as to how this hole was, with a range finder as a guide. I really do think the tee was not super far from the 3rd green and along/near the current golf cart path, and the green was in the other location. Plus, the 4th hole was listed at 400 yards. That is close to where the back tees are now for the hole, which I think you would not want a hack golfer hitting from if the green for the 4th was in its current location.
Joe,
Great work! I certainly stand corrected on the 9th green being in danger from groups coming up 13.
I am definitely up for another expedition. Keep me posted on any future plans.
Are we going to attribute Cobb's to every barnstorming amateur and professional golfer that came through Philadelphia for tournaments and Lesley Cups and were brought out to see Wilson's little "project" in Cobb's Creek park and give an opinion?
Why not just label it as a Walter Travis Signature Design?
I was being absurd, I admit it - but I'm willing to throw the idea out there that whomever came through Philadelphia of any note during that time was probably taken out to Cobb's Creek by Wilson/Crump/Tillinghast or whomever to see the project and perhaps give some insight. Thus it gave Verdant Green and Joe Bunker something to write about.
Point, we still don't know how much they worked together or if this is simply publicity. Heck, one day at Stamford was labeled as "significant time" and all he did was say the course couldn't be long, but attractive.
Topo found:
Mike we need a Topo from Merion to Cobbs !!!!!!!!!
Thanks to all of you for your hard work and research on this thread. This is some great stuff to digest. I don't know if it'll ever happen, but a return of Cobb's Creek to it's original glory would be a crowning achievement for this area...heck it would be a great acheivement for the history of American golf course architecture.
Mike,
If there is anything I can do to help along the way, please count me in. :)
To me the real interesting story of Cobb's Creek golf course is not exactly who routed and designed it but how intransigent the city government of Philadelphia was with the concept of doing it at all and how much that pissed off and disappointed what some today might consider to be the golfing elitists of Philadelphia who proposed it and designed and built it in the first place and who most think wouldn't have cared about something like that at all.
And then the course finally got built and it was supposedly very good and hard and then what did the f...ing city government do but set the fees so high that the ones who were called the so-called "elitists" who proposed it and got it done wanted to see play it couldn't really even afford to play it!
So who ended up playing it at first? The so-called elitists did who belonged to the private clubs while the working man couldn't afford to pay the fees in the opinon of Tillinghast.
That's why I love Tillinghast! In print the man took no prisoners! He was all over the City government and the Park Commission like a field of ticks in August.
This may be the single greatest thread in GCA.com history.
Congratulations!
(Let us know if we any of can help in any way - it'd be a wonderful learning experience)
Ok, for the pièce de résistance. ;D
The original drawing of Cobb's Creek done by Jesse Vodges is pretty big, I'm guessing about 6' x 4'. We snapped a bunch of photos of it, and as Jim Lange of The Dating Game used to say: and here they are!
It would take an amazing hole to remove #17 in my mind. it would have to be almost twice as good because the course becomes less walkable. Keep in mind, the lost par 3 was gone by the time the '28 Public Links came around only 12 years later. That was probably for a reason.
For those of you playing along at home, I'm not sure if anyone has taken the time to save any of the TOPO images to their home computer and then blow them up to a larger size.
If you have, I'd like to get some opinions on #6.
You will note that it seems to climb 80? feet or so in the first 175 yards from the tee.
What do people think of this? Is this hole workable for the modern game?
Can anyone name another hole they are familiar with that rises so abruptly and so quickly?
It surely is daunting and it must have been terrifying in 1916.
Thanks for any thoughts.
I have played Cobbs Creek at least a half a dozen times over the years and I have to ask those who might know -- has there been any real effort to upgrade / restore / modernize, whatever may be the PC word -- to actual work on the course?
Or has it simply been opened each and every year with minimum effort to do anything more than simply cut the grass?
Thanks ...
p.s. I really have enjoyed the course and with the right effort -- both $$ and improvements to some of the holes -- the course could well be a shining star.
Joe,
I've been told that version of the 18th was used for the Phila. Bulletin tournament in the mid-50's.
Joe B:
If what the GM says is true -- was there minutes to the meeting in question concerning what happened / didn't happen?
I mean getting a surcharge enacted is not entirely unreasonable and with a detailed planning process to show what would happen with the added $$ I see no reason why such a situation would be turned down.
Does anyone play golf on the Philadelphia council and if so it's a good idea to touch base and get them moving.
In my experience as an elected official -- without an insider helping with the heavy lifting the load for all others will be extremely difficult to carry much forward.
And that would be shame for what Cobbs Creek could be.
What do you make of the 5th tee position as indicated on the 1967 piping plan in relation to today's location? The position of the 16th tee seems farther up the hill than I thought and would seem to be awkwardly placed relative to the 14th. Perhaps my memory doesn't serve me well this evening.
Interesting stuff about the irrigation system. I believe Kyle is somewhere working on hydration formulas to fix things this evening. ;D
One other thing about the 1967 irrigation map that bears interest that I forgot to mention the other day.
It seems the corridor that supported the old 6th hole (as well as the par three 12th) was still open fairway, and not yet overgrown. Anyone who has been in the forest looking for the 12th tee in recent weeks probably shares my amazement at how much things can grow in 40 years.
And the fairway on the right of#5 before the creek starts is seen on the irrigation map. Now that is rough.
Sounds fun Mike. Why didn't you call me so you didn't have to play with yourself. ;)
So what happened when you tried to play the 17th from the original tee?!
Sounds fun Mike. Why didn't you call me so you didn't have to play with yourself. ;)
So what happened when you tried to play the 17th from the original tee?!
Yes Joe...on the original 1915 approved drawing it looks as though the 14th green near the creek is erased (you can still see it in red) and then re-drawn back about 30 yards.
OVERALL vs the Iowa caucaus, I would say we are gaining!
Willie
Joe,
It may have been even more dangerous with the old tee but I still think it would be in play for the average golfer because the hole doglegs right around that tee and green. I actually was looking at those newer aerials when I thought about posing that question.
Geoffrey,
I thought the same thing but what I think we're forgetting is the topography in that area at the time. Yesterday's 9th green is at one of the highest points of the property, and it sloped downwards towards the creek from there.
So, although it looks to be much in play from a top-down aerial, I'm betting that perched up on that hill it wasn't much of a consideration, especially when the tee was back and too the left as originally built.
The one that concerns me is the old 12th tee and drives coming from the old 6th tee.
I will guarantee you that the pole we saw in the woods held a net at one time. :o
Mike, I don't have the specific Philly Inky article readily in front of me, but (I vaguely?!) remember that they reported the 13th involves a tee shot over Cobb's Creek. I believe that supports the hole running originally just like the ball and stick diagrams depict.
Mike,
I think there may be a bit of an issue. As I said, it's a 270 yard shot to the left point. Assuming that's the neighborhood of the middle or right side of the fairway, a slice would put the current 7th green in the flight line of any recovery from 13. I agree the slope does help mitigate that a tad... but with today's ball I could see some issues.
Joe,
I understand you found a second article mentioning Walter Travis's involvement?
One of the articles that Joe collected mentioned the course (I think it was only 14 holes at the time) could be played in reverse.
Then many years later in this article by Verdant Greene:
Headline: It Happened in Golfland; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 12-19-1915; Volume: 173; Issue: 172; Page: [16]; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Is this snippet:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_and_Travis.jpg)
Objection, your honor.
Hearsay and conjecture.
-Sustained.
That article is a third person account of Travis's doings. I once heard that Macdonald had a significant impact on Merion.
;)
Kyle,
"...although most of his time has been given to assisting in the laying out of public and other courses such as Cobb's Creek..."
This is the second article that mentions Cobbs Creek first among courses where Travis was spending MOST of his time helping with the layout during this period.
If Travis was hanging round Cobbs and Pine Valley most of the time, do you not think the writer (TIlly?) would have gotten this account firsthand?
The other article, from January of that year, stated;
""Walter J. Travis has spent a good deal of time lately in making suggestions as to notable public courses, especially at Cobb's Creek...."
The other article, from January of that year, stated;
""Walter J. Travis has spent a good deal of time lately in making suggestions as to notable public courses, especially at Cobb's Creek...."
...keep going...
Mike, Joe, et al.
Something in the back of my mind has been the shape and size of the 12th hole (today's 6th) and any potential changes for the sake of restoration.
I haven't seen the green in 3 years, but how does the shape today compare with that of the oldest picture of the green and the aerials we have?
Also, for the archeologists in us all... who wants to take some core samples to to try find any changes in green contour through years of topdressing and run off?
Just a brief update.
Tabloid rumors indicate that both the 130 yard original 12 hole and the 220 yard 17th par threes suddenly were back in play today. According to sources, in both cases two members of a threesome were able to hit the greens in question, and another flushed a four-iron 15 yards beyond the downhill 17th.
Did you venture down to the driving range ?
Did you venture down to the driving range ?
Did you venture down to the driving range ?
I also came across something relevant from Golf Magazine on Golf.com by author Patrick White;
Did you venture down to the driving range ?
I also came across something relevant from Golf Magazine on Golf.com by author Patrick White;
Mike - what was the date of the article? I thought the military decommissioned all the old Nike sites in this area. I know one where there is a school on top of the old site now. Also - Nike sites were usually built under large hills.
Mike - what was the date of the article? I thought the military decommissioned all the old Nike sites in this area. I know one where there is a school on top of the old site now. Also - Nike sites were usually built under large hills.
Joe -
Do you know who wrote the response to the question that appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer, March 8, 1914? (You posted the article several pages back.)
I am asking because whoever provided that answer had a very sophisticated grasp of gca issues.
Bob
Joe -
I assume AWT is a possibility. No? Who else are people suggesting?
Bob
Wouldn't Juniata be considered near the Tacony section of Philadelphia?
Simon Carr is an interesting possibility. At about the same time as the Philly Inquirer articles he wrote several pieces for the US Golf Illustrated. They were on PV, but he might have covered other topics as well. I will need to check my files at home.
Given the nature of the comments that Joe uncovered, it can't be just a beat writer. The author had to to have been someone clued in to gca issues of the day.
So Carr would be a candidate.
Bob
Tom -
I too was wondering if George Thomas might be the mystery man.
The writing style in the articles - he was a good writer - reminds me of someone, but I can't put my finger on who.
Bob
Judge for yourself if you think the tee on the 4th was very close to the creek, and perhaps even on the other side based upon these photos and this 1916 Philly Ledger photo. After the Ledger photo is a Google map of the 4th annotated to show approximately where each photo is shot from and the angle (the best I can remember!).
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/picturesque_cobbs_water_hazard.jpg)
View G, from about 100 yards:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_No4_G.jpg)
One interesting short article entitled "GOLF COURSES DAMAGED" from the August 18, 1928 Evening Bulletin said this
Municipal Greens at Cobb's Creek Closed After Flood Rips Them
Considerable damage was caused to the municipal golf courses at Cobb's Creek, the new eleven-hole Karakung course being so badly damaged it will have to be closed for several days for repairs, it was announced today by Alfred E. Hand, superintendent.
Mr. Hand also said the fourth and fifth holes on the Cobb's Creek eighteen-hole course were so covered with debris and washed out in places along the bank of the creek it will be several days before they can be used.
He also said it was doubtful if the fourth hole, located on two sharp bends in the creek, can be put in condition for use tomorrow. The greens on the third and twelfth holes were washed away and temporary greens are being laid today.
All foot bridges across the creek were washed away and a heavy retaining wall along the fourth hole was torn from its foundation and left on the embankment as the waters receded.
All:
Here is how I think the creek during Vodges's time was superimposed over a Google Earth aerial. I think the island in front of the green today was constructed to provide a higher and drier bail out area for the golfer that hit a worm burner. I'd imagine the original area between the tee and the green was QUITE wet and that whenever it rained the creek coming from 17 spilled out over hard left turn it made before reaching Cobb's Creek - creating a SWAMP right in front of the green.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2229/2199968210_5acc731caf_o.jpg)
Joe,
Did Gil rebuild the green or did they just change what was cut as green?
The tee being where we now think it was matches nicely to the description in the article by Joe Bunker (?) just before the course opened. Remember he described a picturesque glen with alot of boulders.
Geoff's observation of the hill in the background is eye opening :o - Although we don't really know where the photographer was set up when he took the photo, but think about it from the photographers perspective, why would you NOT take that picture along the shot corridor; wouldn't make sense.
Absent that sort of information, the picture must speak for itself, and it does NOT speak as to where the tee was located.
I feel Kyle is right that a restoration to original of that hole should ideally put the tee back wherever it was originally designed to be.
However, in a strictly conceptual and strategic workup, in my opinion, the ideal tee angle into that green would be one that sets that left side (creek) up on a basic 45 degree angle--ie diagonal. That kind of angle would create the maximum and ideal distance differential for the spectrum of shots from front to back.
Going way left with the tee would cut down on that left side distance differential but it would also probably cut down on the ability to bail right too.
Kyle:
Before getting into golf architectural strategic concerns and such probably the best thing to do with a hole like that is to first determine the differences in water flow and potentially destructive water flow between 1915 and today!
Geoff,
I think we should avoid some of the more subjective thoughts like "much better angle than today" until we have a solid foundation as to how the course was built.
Geoff,
I think we should avoid some of the more subjective thoughts like "much better angle than today" until we have a solid foundation as to how the course was built.
Kyle,
I agree.
My sentence was poorly worded. I meant to convey the notion that the photo gives you a much better sense of the angle of the the original tee/corridor on the Vodges routing not that it was much better than the tee used today.
Geoff
If and when a restoration of Cobbs gets underway all you guys interested in promoting it will be in for a most valuable and educational lesson----eg you guys will be out there with your historic research and such which hopefully will be comprehensive and accurate and you'll get with the architects and the people into the technical side of these things and then it gets down to the airing of the whole "can do/no can do" or "can do/no can do/can do and here's what it will cost" equations!
Guys:
This thread is so long it may be in here somewhere but I don't remember anything about what the construction cost was of the course. Have any of you seen anything on that?
Another thing I didn't fully appreciate not knowing the course first hand is how few bunkers there've been on it and designed and built on it. Do you know how many total bunkers the course had in design plans and in construction and on opening or even at what you'd consider it's high point?
For some of those Philly architects most certainly including Flynn the thought was really good topography on holes essentially did the job bunkering would do if land wasn't that good topographically.
Of course the interesting course bunkerwise (considering its excellent topography) was ANGC with only 22 planned originally. With ANGC I'm certain that very small number of bunkers wasn't for economic reasons, it was done to make an architectural/strategic point.
Guys:
This thread is so long it may be in here somewhere but I don't remember anything about what the construction cost was of the course. Have any of you seen anything on that?
Another thing I didn't fully appreciate not knowing the course first hand is how few bunkers there've been on it and designed and built on it. Do you know how many total bunkers the course had in design plans and in construction and on opening or even at what you'd consider it's high point?
For some of those Philly architects most certainly including Flynn the thought was really good topography on holes essentially did the job bunkering would do if land wasn't that good topographically.
Of course the interesting course bunkerwise (considering its excellent topography) was ANGC with only 22 planned originally. With ANGC I'm certain that very small number of bunkers wasn't for economic reasons, it was done to make an architectural/strategic point.
And of course people like Wilson and Flynn were very much into the economics and cost efficiences of maintenance/operating budgets and costs. They were sort of on the cutting edge of their times that way and I think we can supply material to basically prove that.
Mike,
That's still circumstantial, IMO. Do you think that flattish thing in the foreground of the top photo is the tee?
It could be.
By the way, what's that to the right of the 4th green? The green looks like an island...
Many thanks to Mark for hosting us today. I had an absolute blast!
I'll post my thoughts when I have more time but the visit only fueled my fire to restore this course.
In addition, I found two interesting links to possible aerials of the course:
http://www.brynmawr.edu/iconog/aero/maero.html
(search for #6806)
http://www.phmc.state.pa.us/Bah/dam/rg/ys/r13ys8e.htm
(under "Parks" section)
I'm not sure if either will add any value, but both should be publicly accessible.
It was great hanging out with all of you today. Let's keep the momentum going on this project!
While searching for info about the architects of the second public course in Philly (Tacony), I found an August 18, 1924 Evening Ledger article with this info:
The city will be saved a big fee for a golf architect, in the program for the erection of a course in Tacony, Mr. Carson said (Carson is the Chief Engineer at this time of Fairmount Park). He announced that he himself, a golfer, and Frank Meehan, Hugh Wilson and A. H. Smith, all members of the Philadelphia Golf Association, would probably design the course.
"Mr. Meehan, Mr. Wilson and Mr. Smith gave their aid in laying out the course at Cobbs Creek," stated the chief engineer, "and I am sure that they will help us with the Tacony links."
Joe:
I'd doubt that Hugh Wilson could've had much to do with that course mentioned in that article as poor Hugh only had about five months to go at that point until the day he said he felt like a boiled owl.
Interesting term. I have absolutely no idea what a boiled owl feels like. Do you?
Joe,
We absolutely want to hear about Wilson's wedding. We also should think about planning something to go thru those files...they sound pretty awesome.
Tom Paul,
There are apparently more architects involved with Cobb's Creek than Gulph Mills. ;D
But how many did actual architecture? ;)
But how many did actual architecture? ;)
All of them to some extent, apparently.
Any time I hear the term "lay out", or "helped to lay out", or "laid out", or whatever...maybe it's just me but I can't help but think "architecture". ;)
Frank James "laid out" plenty of Donald Ross courses...
The weather is looking promising for some golf this weekend around Philly. I might visit Cobb's again and am looking for any other takers.
Joe,
I can't quite line that up, but does it appear that the Lake was lost with the building of that factory-like structure?
btw, do you agree with my thougths on the 4th?
Mike, after I get some other stuff done today I'll prep those photos from our expedition yesterday. But I'll provide now a photo of a photo. In the clubhouse of Cobb's Creek is a Hagley Museum photo that we don't have a copy of (yet!). It is the best early look (July, 1930) at the 4th hole to date, IMO. Here it is:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_No4_1930_Dallin.jpg)
I just heard a news report on KYW that Billy Casper Golf has signed a new contract with the City on four Philly public courses including Cobbs Creek. I did not catch who the spokesman was for the City who commented (I don't think it was Barry Bessler) but he said the City was looking forward to improvements on the courses under Casper golf as well as the prospect of City residents being discounted on greenfees.
I was there on Sat. and wondered how much of the present #14 fairwayy was used for the old #11. Did the hole run along the present #14 for 200 yards or so and then stop and resume to the left and up the hill? There were trees on the left of the original tee; did they run along the left side for a decent yardage?
Also, I wondered how much of the present #7 playing area was used by #13 originally. It seems that it needed to get away from the creek right away. Did the fairway start to the right and work back to the left as it approached the present #7 green ?
Interesting to note that the article Joe posted mentions the 6th fairway being blind, and that the tee was located on the other side of the creek.
I think George Fazio did a terrific job in his alternative routing.
I think George Fazio did a terrific job in his alternative routing.
Mike,
The more I've studied this, the more I seriously question that assertion.
The problem is that on the large rectangular area that houses(d) 11 of the holes, the annexation by the US Army took almost 20% when one factors in 1)the area of the original 13th, 2) The area left to overgrow when 6 was shorted to become #16, and 3) The areas between the holes where rows of pines had to be planted to make two fairways out of a single one. Overall, it basically reduced 75 playable acres for those 11 holes to 60 acres, or just over 5 acres per hole...not much considering the par for those 11 has to be 44.
So, granted, Fazio had little to work with.
However, his "solution" was to create 5 back and forth parallel holes in a row on 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, leaving us a dinky little 16, and another hole that runs parallel #7 to the others in #7.
He took single fairways and made them serve two holes. He created the most boring par three on the course in #8, and the pretty awful 614 yard, featureless, strategy-less 14th.
It's very fair to say that all 7 original holes that were affected by the re-routing in the 40s were far superior to the holes that we have in their place today.
I think the reason it still plays pretty well, and the reason for your compliments about Fazio are due to the fact that the greensites are all pretty tremendous, even played in a cramped re-routed fashion, and the other untouched 11 holes are so darn good! ;D
Joe,
That's a great drawing...however, the 12th tee is that little white patch just south of the tree grouping.
Mike,
Improvement, no - and we are in agreement there. But... wow... everything is still there. I think Mike Malone's perspective is that changes were required and necessary, and that whomever did that work did the best with what was available while still maintaining the possibility of restoring the original design.
Kyle,
I'm not sure the rerouter of Cobbs did it to preserve the chance to return to the original. It was probably the cheapest way to do the job. But, the fact that a personal imprint was not made has allowed an easier transition back to the old routing. I guess I value economy.
Joe,
I'm looking at it again and think that possibly one other change is in order. I'd have #9 bending slightly the other way, and I think the two options on 15 would be straight up the old 14 fairway, or up the hill onto today's 15th fairway.
As drawn, I'm afraid you're over too far onto 13 with your option.
btw, I have a call in...I'll let you know how it goes as soon as I hear anything.
First of all, we have no idea if George Fazio did the work, so I think we all need to make that clear. It happened between 1942 and 1944 and I know he wasn't a practicing architect at the time and we have never come across any actual attribution.
Mike C
You obviously have never met Greg Gaul. I played a team match against Greg at Merion several yers ago. After dinner, Greg and I started talking about golf and I believe we finally left the club about 3 hours after the rest of both of our teams had gone. He is passionate!
Rob
I believe the recovery of #13 is the key to the whole effort. It was a great hole that allows the old routing to be restored. I noticed a number of people hitting from the second level of the driving range last weekend and thought that a multilevel facility is essential in the new location.
Dorothy Iona Campbell was the first internationally dominant female golfer....
Over the course of her career, she won 11 national amateur crowns between Great Britain, the United States, Canada, and Scotland... the last of which came in 1924 at the age of 41. She moved to Canada in 1910 and in 1913 she moved to the United States permanently, where she married Jack V. Hurd that year. She won many of her titles as Mrs. J.V. Hurd, but she and Hurd were divorced in 1923. She married Edward Howe in 1937 and divorced again in 1943.
She was inducted to the Canadian Golf Hall of Fame and the World Golf Hall of Fame in 1978.
Notable wins
1905 Scottish Ladies Championship
1906 Scottish Ladies Championship
1908 Scottish Ladies Championship
1909 United States Women's Amateur Golf Championship, British Ladies Amateur Golf Championship
1910 United States Women's Amateur Golf Championship, Canadian Ladies Open
1911 British Ladies Amateur Golf Championship, Canadian Ladies Open
1912 Canadian Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1918 North and South Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1920 North and South Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1921 North and South Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1924 United States Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1938 U.S. Women's Senior Championship
At the time of this drawing, the old 15th was seemingly being shortened to 315 yards (from 365) and the 11th was shortened to 517 yards (from 570).
I have a feeling that the camera shy champion played a very large role in the creation of Cobb's.
Came across something interesting today.
The annexation of 15-20 acres by the US Army didn't take place during World War II.
Instead, it took place during the Cold War, around 1952 or thereafter.
Ted Rhodes?
Those are the only 2 guys I know. Sorry to say, I shot my meager wad ;)
The Brown Bomber! Joe Lewis. I remember you telling me he used to play at Cobb's. I didn't know he played that well.
Ok...just learned something that has once again blown my mind. (Obviously not difficult at this stage).
Can anyone guess who the first golf professional was at Cobb's Creek?
Came across something interesting today.
The annexation of 15-20 acres by the US Army didn't take place during World War II.
Instead, it took place during the Cold War, around 1952 or thereafter.
We're BAAACKKK!
Hey, Mike, why haven't you posted those findings yet and what we also dug up later in the afternoon from the Jan 1915 microfilm of the Philadelphia Public Ledger?!
Answer: he's probably hungry like me and didn't eat today as we waded through this treasure trove of info.
Joe,
What is the date of the second Aronimink article?
I do need to get that book, though. ;)
Notice that the only reference to Vardon and Ray was that they visited the course after it was already designed and built and that it was at the point of waiting for the grass to grow in. They had nothing to do with it's creation. Tilly would know since he both designed the course and spent a great deal of time there during its construction.
No idea, Kyle.
Take a look at the green complex on the current #10 at Cobb's Creek. I have now dubbed that the "Tie Fighter green" and I will make it my mission to have that fully restored. ;D
"Having played, quite a few of Walter Travis's designs, and generally LOVING them, I feel that this might very well be his contribution to Cobb's Creek."
That's a very interesting observation, Mike. Of course, it's totally unprovable but I've spent enough time collaborating of projects where I know something like that isn't uncommon.
MikeC:
Furthermore, I heard you boys were hitting balls from some of the old tee positions through the woods to their original greens. Now I know you guys are super serious or pretty insane.
Joe,
I had no idea that Rees Jones was involved in the design of Cobb's Creek. ;)
Seriously, I wonder if that is a bunker or a pile of turf/sand being utilized in the construction process, despite what the caption reads?
Joe,
Who is who in the picture?
Mike--Have you posted the interview for public viewing on YouTube, or anywhere else?
Mike--Have you posted the interview for public viewing on YouTube, or anywhere else?
JKen,
Mike has been rather distracted lately. He's led people to believe he's been golfing in Michigan playing all those wonderful par 3 courses. The reality is much more complex.... but then again it isn't.
I've been privy, behind the scenes, to the setting up of the Lumberjack Strap Match of the 21st Century between some rather cranky, at times colicky, GCA.com participants. At this moment Mike "The Hollywood Fashion Plate" Cirba is scheduled to manage the current WWE tag-team champions of Tom "I Got Your Whigham Routing Right Here" Paul and Wayne "Black Jack" Morrison versus a rather formidable on paper tandem of Rowdy Tommy MacWood and David Less is Moriarity, managed by The Mouth of the East, Patty Mucci.
Get your tickets now online at www.ih8golf.com, or call 1-800-GIV-2-JOE to order by phone.
I personally think you should change the format to a spin-the-wheel-make-the-deal match, with a lumberjack strap match being an option. I would also like to see a Punjabi prison match be an option, a Tables, Ladders and Chairs match, and a Coal Miners Glove match. Now that would be entertainment. Can I be one of the lumberjacks? This sounds like a fancy idea.
Perhaps Joe Bausch can update us on his recent afternoon at Cobb's walking with some of golf's best traditional thinkers?
OK, you guys managed to get Pete and Bill to Cobb's Creek GC. Now, when are you gonna get Tom Paul there? He should've been there with Pete and Bill...you'd still be there in deep conversation...on the front 9 ;)
Hey, I got to be the 1000th post! Alright!
OK, you guys managed to get Pete and Bill to Cobb's Creek GC. Now, when are you gonna get Tom Paul there? He should've been there with Pete and Bill...you'd still be there in deep conversation...on the front 9 ;)
Hey, I got to be the 1000th post! Alright!
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Mike actually got it.
While you have the 1000th reply your post is actually 1,001st.
Sorry, I have to let my anal rentitive side out every now and then to play. ;D
Yes, Tom Paul has been to Cobb's Creek and from what I understand, he was even later that evening
Joe...did either Pete or Bill provide any thoughts on the old 6th hole, given it's abruptness?
Joe - do you have a photo tour of Cobb's Creek on your website?
Mike--Have you posted the interview for public viewing on YouTube, or anywhere else?
Joe,
Too cool. Was the second pic of the ladies really an accompaniment and were they at Cobb's in those fetching outfits, or are you pulling our legs?
Also, very interesting about the date of pinning down the current 17th. I wonder if it was during the time Ab Smith was working on the Karakung course, which opened 11 holes in 1927....I'm betting it was.
She clicked her heels and forgot the tally. ;)
Geoff,
Thanks for playing this past weekend!
We punched the greens two weeks ago so they were not in that same condition they have been throughout the year. Also, I'm sure you can see the need to a new irrigation system as the course is very dry after over a month of no rain.
To all local Philly guys: Lets set something up for this fall at Cobb's. I know a few of you have been out this year but lets get everyone together and play some golf not just look at the course!
Mark
Apparently the dissing of Hugh Wilson started pretty early. ::)
Was McCracken related to MacWood and Moriarty? ;)
Just kidding folks!!! We have enough other contemporaneous articles to prove the design involvement of Hugh Wilson and all of the others, but it also seems that Ab Smith was most involved of all of these men in public golf, particularly in the building of the course (as opposed to designing it) as well as his involvement in pushing for additional courses in the 20's (and then designing them as well).
Apparently the dissing of Hugh Wilson started pretty early. ::)
Was McCracken related to MacWood and Moriarty? ;)
Just kidding folks!!! We have enough other contemporaneous articles to prove the design involvement of Hugh Wilson and all of the others, but it also seems that Ab Smith was most involved of all of these men in public golf, particularly in the building of the course (as opposed to designing it) as well as his involvement in pushing for additional courses in the 20's (and then designing them as well).
MacCracken did not dis Wilson. Robert Lesley did. No relation.
1. Robert Lesley wrote that Wilson & Committee laid Merion out on the ground with the advice of M&W . . . Mike Cirba concludes that Wilson designed the course, and M&W did not.
2. Robert Lesley wrote that Smith laid out Cobb's and doesnt even mention Wilson? Mike Cirba concludes that Wilson designed Cobb's with Smith.
Lesley is either he is using "laid out" to mean something other than designed, or he is entirely crediting Smith with the design of Cobb's. Which is it?
What is wrong with this picture?
Joe.
Am I not allowed to post my thoughts on a Cobb's thread? To correct Mike's mistaken attribution? Aren't you interested in who designed and built Cobb's Creek?
I'll gladly leave Merion out of this thread.
Why do you think Robert Lesley credited only Smith??
What do you think that Lesley meant when he wrote that Smith laid out Cobb's?
Mike, Wayne, and all: I'm a man of my words.
I found that article Mike and so many others wanted to confirm. Here it is!
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 01-24-1915; Volume: 172; Issue: 24; Page: 14; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Here is relevant part of the article, which I'll send to anybody that wishes the entire thing as a PDF file.
"...Such experts as Hugh Wilson, who laid out Merion and Seaview courses, George Klauder, one of the constructors of the Aronimink course, and Ab Smith, who has done a lot for the Huntingdon Valley course, have laid out the course in Cobb's Creek Park".
Joe,
Can you also post the January, 1923 article about the Golf Association of Philadelphia (GAP) pushing for new public courses in the city?
They certainly had a very big interest in growing the game during those early years.
I take great pleasure in bringing this thread back to the top, not just with a 'bump', but a simple feel good story.
After Joe Logan's Philadelphia Inquirer article was published a few months ago, which included an e-mail address to contact our Friends of Cobb's Creek Golf Course group, we received an e-mail from a fellow living in West Chester who has a relative (great-great uncle, I think) that worked as a kid at Cobb's Creek... and get this, is still alive and well at 97 years young!
Well, it took a couple of months to arrange a get-together, but this afternoon it happened at the golf course. Mike Cirba and I met Bruce Hepke and his great-great uncle Attilio DePalma (he goes by 'Tillie', how 'bout that!) for a trip back in time. Tillie started as a 'chaser' at Cobb's around 1921. We learned that a chaser was somebody the picked up golf balls at the range. He progressed to be assistant caddymaster and was also the caddy for whenever Joe Coble showed up to play, which was often. Coble, for those that are playing along at home, was the first 'Rocky story' of Philadelphia. Coble honed his game at Cobb's Creek while working working as a waiter nearby, and eventually won the 1924 Publinx tourney and later turned pro and won the Philadelphia Open.
I'll allow Mike to recount some of the interesting accounts he had of the course, which are many. I'll just get things started with a nice pic of the three of us standing on the 17th tee at Cobb's:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/2608238651_12dbb5a251_o.jpg)
Wow...what an afternoon!
As Joe mentioned, we were fortunate enough to spend the afternoon in the gracious company of a man we previously knew only as someone who caddied at Cobb's Creek in the 20s. I must admit that I didn't really know what to expect going in.
I'd really like to gather my thoughts and do justice to this story, because it was magical. Right now, I'm still decompressing.
Just a couple of quick notes. It turns out that "Tilly" not only knew Joe Coble, he was "his man", and his caddie for tournaments and outings at Cobb's Creek and other local courses, including private ones. He recounted what a "wonderful man" Coble was, and how he had a special affinity for, and popularity with "teaching the ladies", all said to me somewhat whispered with a mischievous smile.
He remembered the course in considerable detail, and showed us where you used to tee off on the long gone par three 14th over the creek, which was eliminated in the mid-20s. He told us about the restaurant that was located on the 15th hole, and how it was perfectly located for hungry and thirsty golfers and caddies during the round. He told us that the "good guys" would pay for their caddy's snacks, and how some others wouldn't. Joe assured him that not much has changed in that respect.
He was astounded at how the trees had grown, and how much thicker they were than in his day. He wouldn't make much of a GCA-er, however, as he thought the course looked much prettier with all of them there. ;)
He marvelled at the condition of the greens...."like carpets", he called them, and said in his day grass on golf courses was much sparser and thinner.
I could go on, and probably will tomorrow when I have some dedicated time to think and write.
It's a bit difficult to take in meeting with someone who was born before the Titanic went down, who played and caddied at Cobb's Creek while Hugh Wilson and Ab Smith and Joe Coble were still alive, and who had the spry, genteel manner of an earlier era mixed with the spunky playfulness of a man being returned to his boyhood stomping grounds. I feel like I was just plopped down in "Field of Dreams", and watched a man transported in time.
Profound.
If all goes well, the much promised YouTube videos of our day with Mr. Atillio DePalma at Cobb's Creek will be online by the end of this week.
I finally watched the film for the first time today.
Despite the annoying interviewer, I think you're in for a treat. He was quite the man, and I'll stop at that, because I believe you'll all see for yourselves very soon.
In the September 30, 1915 edition of the Philadelphia Bulletin is an update on the progress of the locker rooms at Cobb's Creek (the course opened in May of 1916). What is interesting about the photo is that is taken from in front of the 2nd green, which apparently had some interesting bunkering at the back of the green:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_SecondHole_1915.jpg)
Contrast this to a fairly current photo from near the 2nd green:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_SecondHole_2007.jpg)
Next is another photo from 1928 where the 1st, 2nd, and 18th greens are in view:
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/CC_Hagley/Hagley_1970200_03725.jpg)
I played cobbs on saturday for the 2nd time in my life. I'm not so interested in a restoration to the previous routing, although it is interesting to know the history. I think the layout is great as it is. I just wish the turf (and maintenance in general) was in better condition. (Granted it is winter time). It's sad when you think about all the money that gets put into other courses that some money can't be scrounged for this. With all the passion for this course (32 pages worth), perhaps more will get done.
I played cobbs on saturday for the 2nd time in my life. I'm not so interested in a restoration to the previous routing, although it is interesting to know the history. I think the layout is great as it is. I just wish the turf (and maintenance in general) was in better condition. (Granted it is winter time). It's sad when you think about all the money that gets put into other courses that some money can't be scrounged for this. With all the passion for this course (32 pages worth), perhaps more will get done.
I wish I could have joined you on Saturday Alex but I was 'unavoidably detained'.
I think a little coaching was needed so you could know exactly how the course used to be. ;) For me, there is no comparison in that the original (or the 1928 version) layout was much better.
I don't doubt that the previous routings were better, just that in a world with limited resources and other conflicts (e.g. that driving range), I have hope for the good rather than the ideal.
I hope to make it back there soon with you and the other experts and interested readers of this thread.
I don't doubt that the previous routings were better, just that in a world with limited resources and other conflicts (e.g. that driving range), I have hope for the good rather than the ideal.
I hope to make it back there soon with you and the other experts and interested readers of this thread.
Alex,
Let's plan on getting back out there.
As far as "limited resources", I'd contend that sometimes a strategic, targeted, and highly-publicized investment in what would be a historic restoration of a world-famous course with incredible sporting history would pay for itself if done correctly.
Consider the following...
Given the present architecturally marginalized course, even before the economic meltdown, Cobb's Creek has seen a slow, slow drip away from it's former grandeur that has accelarated in recent years.
Recall that 80,000 rounds were the norm through the 1920s, which increased to 120,000 annual rounds in 1929 with the addition of the Karakung course. Even in 1940 Cobb's Creek had more rounds than any course in the country.
In the year 2000, that number for both courses was 80,216. In the past decade, there has already been a 45% falloff...
2001 - 68,206
2002 - 62, 291
2003 - 48,333
2004 - 44, 426
2005 - 41,737
2006 - 42,754
2007 - 44,481
I've yet to see numbers for 2008....I'd expect to see a bump given some of the publicity that's been generated, but I'd contend that the property today is being seriously underutilized when one considers the possibility of;
One historic and potentially wonderful 18 hole golf course
One shorter overflow 18 hole golf course
Two Driving ranges
Growing better grass is not the answer; it's only a small piece of the solution.
From an architectural standpoint, it is actually surprising to see how much of Cobb’s Creek Golf Course has actually been retained largely untouched over almost 100 years. In fact, holes 1-5, 10-13, and 17-18 are virtually the same as they played during the 1928 U.S. Public Links tournament, each of these holes except number seventeen a part of Hugh Wilson and friends’ original design. Although the routing has changed fairly significantly, all but one of the original greens is still in use on the present course and most of the original features remain. The only original hole that was abandoned in the course’s early years was the par-three 14th, which crossed the creek at the lowest elevation point in the northwestern-most corner of the property, replaced by the wonderful 17th hole sometime in the mid 1920’s.
Most of the routing changes were necessitated by the US Army annexing nearly 15% (18.5 acres) of the course during the early 1950s to build an anti-aircraft artillery operation on the site of the present driving range on City Line Avenue. As can be seen on the following aerials, this loss of acreage affected the largest portion of the property, a rectangular area in the northwest quadrant that contains holes six through sixteen. The significant loss of property along the far western edge had the immediate effect of eliminating the then par-five 13th hole, the by-then-extinct par three 14th, and forced the 15th tee (today’s 9th) up closer to the green by about 100 yards. The considerable narrowing (20%) of the available land for those eleven holes then created a immediate need to re-route the remaining holes (in a way to once again have a full eighteen.
Ultimately, the loss of this one pivotal hole (the old 13th) also created the need to significantly change and re-route the old 6th, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th holes as well, and replaced them with the present 6th, 7th, 8th, 14th, 15th, and 16th holes. The course aerials on the following pages demonstrate clearly the routing changes caused by the Army annexation of land. Let’s examine what was lost and gained in the exchange.
• The original sixth hole was a daunting 380 yard par four, featuring a drive that needed to scale 80 feet of elevation change and an approach over a massive pit of sand to a green hanging on the edge of a precipice. The uphill tee-shot was eliminated and today the hole is a 275 yard par four that is slightly uphill to an unprotected green.
• The ninth played from the heights of today’s back fourteenth tee, down into the valley, and then up again to the crowned green that is today’s seventh green. This scenic 380 yard par four was replaced by today’s flat, somewhat awkward 470 yard par five seventh hole.
• The original tenth was a 210 yard par three from today’s eight tee, across and up the hill to today’s fourteenth green, which would have featured a false-front approached from that direction. Today, the 614 yard par five fourteenth plays to this green, squeezed in one-half of what used to be the original eleventh hole fairway and providing almost nothing in the way of strategic interest.
• The original eleventh hole was an incredibly wide, wild ride of 520 yards to a green set atop a ledge, and which would have featured a strategic option of a high and low fairway on the second shot. Today, the hole plays at half of its original width as the uphill, par four fifteenth hole. While today’s hole is a very good one, the original was a classic.
• The original twelfth hole was the famous 130 yard par three “island green” hole, playing from a hilltop tee, and somewhat comparable to today’s 7th at Pebble Beach in exactitude. At the time it was built, it was called in “possibly the prettiest hole in the country”. It was replaced by a flat, relatively mundane 120 yard approach over the creek from the original sixth tee, and the island features of the green site have been since removed.
• The original thirteenth was a sweeping, semi-circle 543 yard par five that teed off from the far side of the creek, ran up somewhat blindly through the present driving range, and featured an approach to a green 40 feet above the golfer to today’s 8th green. Today’s eighth is a good, if uninspiring hole.
• The original fourteenth is today’s ninth, only the tee was back 100 yards into the grassy area adjacent to City Line Avenue and the driving range parking lot. From that tee, it would have been a strategically complicated, severely uphill hole of 360 yards.
Kyle,
I'll respond more later but the first correction I'd make to your post is your assertion that the rounds are falling off due to decreased conditioning over the past decade.
I played Cobb's Creek back in the mid-80s and through much of the 90s and it is in much better shape now than then, particularly the greens.
I think it's a question of competition. What was around in your era to compete with Cobb's? The Philadelphia golfer now has MANY options in the public arena - and much more than during that era.
Improvements to Paxon Hollow, Jeffersonville and new additions like Lederach and Makefield Highlands are all significant upgrades from Cobb's Creek - they're easier to access from the suburbs and in many cases, are a better bargain both in time and cost.
Mike,
Both organizations also made a commitment to raising the standard of upkeep as well. It is interesting to use those models as a template, sure - but the restoration only worked with the raised maintenance standard.
Furthermore, both restorations were far more drastic than anything at Cobb's. Yes, I know the routing would be changed... but bunkers? Greens? Think of how GOOD Cobb's Creek would be with just the run of the mill Jeffersonville day...
The point is, Paxon and Jeffersonville were on a much more stable footing going into their restoration.
Mike,
Both organizations also made a commitment to raising the standard of upkeep as well. It is interesting to use those models as a template, sure - but the restoration only worked with the raised maintenance standard.
Furthermore, both restorations were far more drastic than anything at Cobb's. Yes, I know the routing would be changed... but bunkers? Greens? Think of how GOOD Cobb's Creek would be with just the run of the mill Jeffersonville day...
The point is, Paxon and Jeffersonville were on a much more stable footing going into their restoration.
Kyle,
I'm not sure I understand your point. I'm not arguing that upgraded conditioning shouldn't be part of a restoration strategy...clearly it's needed, but first I would want to know if I was designing a new drainage and irrigation system for a GREAT, fully-restored, historically accurate course on 110 acres or a GOOD but highly marginalized, architecturally truncated one on 90 acres. ;)
I would argue about the previous footing of Jeffersonville...it was run down in much the same conditioning as Cobb's Creek when I first played there back in the 1980s, pre-restoration.
Kyle,
I believe the older routing challenges golfers more than the present one does. I think this is appropriate since Cobbs is the crown jewel of Philly city golf. #6 would be much more challenging than the current #16. The blind tee shot and the longer hole combine to make the approach shot much more fun than the current short one. The old #9 would create a diagonal tee shot and not lose the appeal of the present approach. The old #10 would be a much more interesting par three than #8. It is longer with a more interesting contour near the green. As much as I love #15 today, I would be much more challenged by the old hole as a demanding par 5.
I think the present back and forth routing pales in comparison to the original's variety.
I'm not convinced on the need for an irrigation system, nor that an upgraded "system" is what is needed to improve conditioning - keep in mind where I work and what we have you can see where I'm coming from. Let's talk about that sometime.
Highly-marginalized is extreme hyperbole. And irrigation isn't THAT complex.
Kyle,
The old #9 was the current #7. The old tee shot was from the present # 14 tee, thus the diagonal. It reminds me of a Flynn like hole.
Kyle,When I first played it in 2004, we played it from that back tee - it was Driver, 5-iron for me at that point. I remember needing two VERY good shots to get there. That back tee still exists though - so it's not the fault of the current architecture if the tees are never put back there. In fact, they're probably not put there for a reason...
I haven't seen the tee on 15 back at 447 yards since around 1990. Every time I've played there in recent years it's playing wayyyyy up at about 380.
Have you seen tee markers back there in recent years?
Kyle,
Perhaps you are hanging out with Tom Paul too much!
I haven't followed this thread at all so I have to ask if this entire restoration project is a pipe dream or a real possibility. If its a possibility (even partially) then for a public course the decisions will necessarily centre around getting people to pay the green fee. Would a restoration to the old routing, a conditioning upgrade or a combination of both either partially or in full best serve to get the cash registers making noise?
Ciao
MikeC:
Listen, that stagger of aerials is somewhat helpful to me but as you know I'm not as familiar with that general area as you are. On the other hand, I'm a very creative "win/win" thinker type of guy, as you know, and we all know this particular project has an unusual number of factors and participants and so some additional creativity is probably called for at this point.
Do you remember that incredible "MOVE" incident about 20-25 years ago when the city government for some semi-inexplicable reason dropped an incendiary bomb in a Philadelphia neighborhood during their ongoing eviction dispute with the so-called Symbionese Liberation Army and their HQ?
Find me a contiguous neighborhood to Cobbs and I'll try to arrange with the city to do a virtual rerun of that interesting event and that might cop us enough land for 3-4 restored holes.
Leave the timing to me too; I'm very good at that. We'll wait for a really high news period and then attack unexpectedly and hopefully the whole thing won't make it beyond about the 6th or 7th page of the newspapers.
If that doesn't work for you for some odd reason it'll be no problem at all for me to develop a wholly different "Plan B."
I haven't followed this thread at all so I have to ask if this entire restoration project is a pipe dream or a real possibility. If its a possibility (even partially) then for a public course the decisions will necessarily centre around getting people to pay the green fee. Would a restoration to the old routing, a conditioning upgrade or a combination of both either partially or in full best serve to get the cash registers making noise?
Ciao
Sean,
I think one of the roadblocks to the whole thing is that the cash registers are already making noise. I'm not sure where Mike got his numbers or what they represent in terms of Karakung/Olde distribution, but all accounts I've heard have the place being booked from Friday through Sunday with some play during the week. I think the obvious decision in regard to fee structure is to offer a significant discount to Philadelphia residents and a higher fee for non-Philadelphia residents. Though I wonder what is the actual distribution of golfers from Philadelphia and from the suburbs.
Something is bound to happen with the Billy Casper Group taking over. I've yet to play a facility they've owned that hasn't been reasonable conditioned. I'd like to see how the current course takes to an upgrade in conditioning before any restoration efforts are made.
I haven't followed this thread at all so I have to ask if this entire restoration project is a pipe dream or a real possibility. If its a possibility (even partially) then for a public course the decisions will necessarily centre around getting people to pay the green fee. Would a restoration to the old routing, a conditioning upgrade or a combination of both either partially or in full best serve to get the cash registers making noise?
CiaoSean,
I think one of the roadblocks to the whole thing is that the cash registers are already making noise. I'm not sure where Mike got his numbers or what they represent in terms of Karakung/Olde distribution, but all accounts I've heard have the place being booked from Friday through Sunday with some play during the week. I think the obvious decision in regard to fee structure is to offer a significant discount to Philadelphia residents and a higher fee for non-Philadelphia residents. Though I wonder what is the actual distribution of golfers from Philadelphia and from the suburbs.
Something is bound to happen with the Billy Casper Group taking over. I've yet to play a facility they've owned that hasn't been reasonable conditioned. I'd like to see how the current course takes to an upgrade in conditioning before any restoration efforts are made.
Sean,
In today's economy, who knows what will happen if things get worse from a jobs standpoint. However, I will say this.
Cobb's Creek is the most historically significant public golf course in the United States from an architectural, sociological, and competitive standpoint, with the possible exception of Bethpage Black. The fact that it's setting is DIRECTLY in a large urban area with large minority populations could be a huge asset.
.
A well-done, highly publicized, strategic plan for the property that included historic restoration of the work of Hugh Wilson, George Crump, and others would certainly increase market share, and if done correctly would increase market share dramatically while building the next generation of customers.
Mike
Wow! Those claims are quite something! Personally, I ain't buying the most historically.... business with Pebble and Pinehurst about. Remember, many large cities have their own tale to tell concerning the history of public courses so I wouldn't get carried away because of a Crump-Wilson pedigree.
So far as the restoration is concerned, do you have any data to back up the claim that a restoration would increase market share?
I am not trying to drag you down, but perhaps you are displaying some Philly and Crump-Wilson bias in your claims.
Ciao
I'm sorry, Mike - could you please state that again?
MikeMike
Wow! Those claims are quite something! Personally, I ain't buying the most historically.... business with Pebble and Pinehurst about. Remember, many large cities have their own tale to tell concerning the history of public courses so I wouldn't get carried away because of a Crump-Wilson pedigree.
So far as the restoration is concerned, do you have any data to back up the claim that a restoration would increase market share?
I am not trying to drag you down, but perhaps you are displaying some Philly and Crump-Wilson bias in your claims.
Ciao
Sean,
I'm talking about public courses, not resort ones.
As far as asking for the reasons why I make that claim, I think it's a bit unfair of you to ask after stating that you haven't read this thread where decades of historical information have been unearthed by the contributors here and we're now 1000 posts later and 18 months later. ::) ;)
Short answer is if you're asking the question, you haven't been paying attention, and that's ok too, but please don't just be contrarian for the sake of debate because at least Kyle has a personal professional agenda he's trying to obliquely further with his questions.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm not sure how your questions are helpful.
Do you think that restoring a historically prominent course of architectural significance and sociological relevance would be a mistake?
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point?
MikeMike
Wow! Those claims are quite something! Personally, I ain't buying the most historically.... business with Pebble and Pinehurst about. Remember, many large cities have their own tale to tell concerning the history of public courses so I wouldn't get carried away because of a Crump-Wilson pedigree.
So far as the restoration is concerned, do you have any data to back up the claim that a restoration would increase market share?
I am not trying to drag you down, but perhaps you are displaying some Philly and Crump-Wilson bias in your claims.
Ciao
Sean,
I'm talking about public courses, not resort ones.
As far as asking for the reasons why I make that claim, I think it's a bit unfair of you to ask after stating that you haven't read this thread where decades of historical information have been unearthed by the contributors here and we're now 1000 posts later and 18 months later. ::) ;)
Short answer is if you're asking the question, you haven't been paying attention, and that's ok too, but please don't just be contrarian for the sake of debate because at least Kyle has a personal professional agenda he's trying to obliquely further with his questions.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm not sure how your questions are helpful.
Do you think that restoring a historically prominent course of architectural significance and sociological relevance would be a mistake?
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point?
Resort is public. Furthermore, I don't understand the significance of the course being public anyway.
I only asked one question. Please point me to the page where it is answered and I will gladly read it.
I don't know that Cobb's Creek is particularly high in the table of prominent, historically and sociologically significant courses. There are an awful lot of courses out there with a hell of a lot of history. Because you say Cobb's Creek is near the top of the list (which for some reason seems to be divided between public and private) doesn't make it so. We can all differ with our opinions on that.
Finally, the only significance I can see of CC being public is that it needs to turn a profit or at least turn over enough money to please its owners. I am not convinced that the paying public do or will recognize the significance you place on CC to warrant a restoration. Its more a political and business decision rather than an architectural, sociological or historical decision.
None of this is to say I am against a restoration of CC. In truth, I don't really have an opinion. I was merely questioning some of your suppositions by requesting some backup data. If that rocks your boat too much I withdraw the question.
Ciao
MikeMike
Wow! Those claims are quite something! Personally, I ain't buying the most historically.... business with Pebble and Pinehurst about. Remember, many large cities have their own tale to tell concerning the history of public courses so I wouldn't get carried away because of a Crump-Wilson pedigree.
So far as the restoration is concerned, do you have any data to back up the claim that a restoration would increase market share?
I am not trying to drag you down, but perhaps you are displaying some Philly and Crump-Wilson bias in your claims.
Ciao
Sean,
I'm talking about public courses, not resort ones.
As far as asking for the reasons why I make that claim, I think it's a bit unfair of you to ask after stating that you haven't read this thread where decades of historical information have been unearthed by the contributors here and we're now 1000 posts later and 18 months later. ::) ;)
Short answer is if you're asking the question, you haven't been paying attention, and that's ok too, but please don't just be contrarian for the sake of debate because at least Kyle has a personal professional agenda he's trying to obliquely further with his questions.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm not sure how your questions are helpful.
Do you think that restoring a historically prominent course of architectural significance and sociological relevance would be a mistake?
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point?
Resort is public. Furthermore, I don't understand the significance of the course being public anyway.
I only asked one question. Please point me to the page where it is answered and I will gladly read it.
I don't know that Cobb's Creek is particularly high in the table of prominent, historically and sociologically significant courses. There are an awful lot of courses out there with a hell of a lot of history. Because you say Cobb's Creek is near the top of the list (which for some reason seems to be divided between public and private) doesn't make it so. We can all differ with our opinions on that.
Finally, the only significance I can see of CC being public is that it needs to turn a profit or at least turn over enough money to please its owners. I am not convinced that the paying public do or will recognize the significance you place on CC to warrant a restoration. Its more a political and business decision rather than an architectural, sociological or historical decision.
None of this is to say I am against a restoration of CC. In truth, I don't really have an opinion. I was merely questioning some of your suppositions by requesting some backup data. If that rocks your boat too much I withdraw the question.
Ciao
Sean,
I think if something is of historical, sociological, or even recreational significance, the profit (or even break even on its own) motive does not have to be the only motive. Else why are there public parks, museums or historical buildings, etc. And I think it is pretty darn significant that it is a public (not private) course (furthermore, municipally owned) that anyone with $20 can come in and play (or at least wander freely around the clubhouse).
Mike ,
If we called this a "restorouting" people might understand more.
Cheers Mike. It seems you lot are serious about this project. Has the "friends of Cobbs Creek" charity been set up yet? Is there any chance the charity drive can be more "user friendly" for golfers in general rather than what appears to be completely Philly directed? Has any charitable organization expressed interest in large donations for the project? Has there been any discussion about the restoration shut down time and if this will cost green fee cash? Has there been any discussion about the possible financial benefits a restoration may bring? Finally, the entire iteration and implications of the original routing VS the current routing VS the hoped for "restrorouting" is a bit confusing. In rough percentage terms, how much of the original routing can you restore? How does this compare to the present routing?
Mike:
What is the really unique aspect is the manner in which the redesigners of the course redesigned it. If they'd ever tried to obsolete a single green and move it for instance, this entire sort of Rohrshack like jigsaw puzzle probably would've fallen apart.
I also think the original designers should've taken the trees on a few ridge/hillside areas totally out of there. That could probably create some totally stunning vistas and vantages that never were up and down most of the entire middle of that course.
Sounds like you guys had a great time out there today. I wish I could have joined you.
I love seeing that photo of 12 magnified. You see so much more detail on the contours of the green and the sluceway in front. However, I can't remember if that berm in the back right of the green is still there... I don't believe it is.
Note in the pic of the 12th the field behind the train tracks. A few years later a golf course would start there, the PECO employees course (Ross and Flynn) now known as McCall.
And the caption with this photo is a hoot, IMO! Also note that this writer talks about this being 'between the eleven and twelve', instead of simply saying 'the 12th hole'.
(http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Twelfth_Green.jpg)
Sounds like you guys had a great time out there today. I wish I could have joined you.
I love seeing that photo of 12 magnified. You see so much more detail on the contours of the green and the sluceway in front. However, I can't remember if that berm in the back right of the green is still there... I don't believe it is.
Geoffrey,
It's no longer there...but...the two trees directly in front of it are there a mere 99 years later. ;)
Geoffrey,
It's no longer there...but...the two trees directly in front of it are there a mere 99 years later. ;)
Mike,
I have a feeling that the soil for the berm came from cleaning up the sluceway in front and it probably went right back into it when they made the changes to the course in the 1940's.
I need to bone up on my dates from your unabridged history. All the more reason to get a cliff notes version online... ;D
I played there on Saturday (if I had your phone number Kyle I would have called you.).
My question is "Where else in the world can you find a course that could be restored to such an excellent level with so little disruption?"
I guessed only 4/5 new tees and under a hundred useless evergreens along with some scrufty underbrush and trees.
I had the pleasure of touring Cobb's a few days ago. It was, as expected, a joy to see the course firsthand. I look forward to returning sometime this summer to play and get to know it better.
Mike — The most dramatic portion is the series along the creek. I realize that trees have been a part of the setting for some time, but obviously new trees and much more mature trees have "taken over" some of the strategy. That is a shame, especially with the newfound "friends" of the Park who will argue against any attempt to remove trees, even though it is clearly needed for true restoration of some areas.
I am looking forward to a more in-depth comparison of the existing course with the original. It seems obvious that a lot of interpretation will be required in certain areas, and good balance between what was — and what will fly in this Century.
The hillside holes are charming with their often blind putting surfaces and lone bunkers.
Previous management seems to have taken its toll on the course — trees left to grow wild, no security during the winter (a four-wheeler had recently messed up a few fairways), poor maintenance protocol, ill-planned priorities, etc. A sad situation, especially now that no one seems to have any money. The current No. 6 green work should ideally be overseen by someone who can bridge the gap between golf architecture, maintenance, engineering and history. While I am not 100% certain, it looks to me as if it simply is being winged in-house. Usually, that is a crap shoot.
Interpretation? Because some of the "exactness" of the original is lone gone. In areas where you cannot — physically, financially, reasonably or agronomically — return the exactness of the original, there will need to be interpretation. That will require a balance between what should happen and what needs to happen...to what can happen. Rarely do we ever get a 100% restoration, and my guess is that Cobbs will need to adapt somewhat in certain areas.
I think the trees are the most dramatic example. From what I understand it will be very tough to get rid of many trees. That alone will require that some decisions be made on all of the areas that cascade from the edges of tree canopies; turf limits, bunker positions, and even green sizes. It will be great to get as much of the original back as possible, but there is certain to be some needed interpretation.
While my knowledge of the course pales to yours and others, I see significant differences between many of the early photos and what is there today. Like I said, it will be great to get as much of back as possible.
It's an odd reaction to the word "interpretation" in GCA discussions. On one hand there is a strong argument for interpretation when it comes to realizing a new course...yet, when it comes to restoration the word can cause a bad reaction...!
Mike:
Let me know if you need some stealth chain saw work. Every summer we've got a handful of interns who would be perfect for the job.
(Just don't leave an electronic trail back to me, please. Two lights in the tower of that church behind the fourth green at Stonewall North would be good.)
Mike — Take Tom D. up on his offer...quickly, before he retracts!
You are right, the primary considerations will be driven by political and policy matters. That, combined with where to spend the "no funds available" budget will account for a lot of decisions. (I will avoid "interpretation" so not to be misunderstood.)
It will be great if Cobbs can be restored as simply as you describe. The trick is to manage all (literally hundreds) of the considerations, and all (probably several) of the stakeholders — together with the "silent players", such as the pre-1960s irrigation system, soils, and new golfer types — into a win-win for everybody. It will also be important to make it last. Not a whole lot worse than an effort which falls short on quality and has little hope of enduring.
I do share the optimism that it is ripe for the work — unfortunately we have all caught the golf business in one of its worst eras. For every course such as Cobbs there are several being shelved, or at least being ignored until things get back on track.
Is there any work being done on 17 tee?
Has the Billy Casper group taken over management of Cobbs Creek, or is it just under consideration by them?
Joe - I wonder what the other "number of links" would be?
Joe,
I'm on blackberry and can't see the article.
You're killing me! ;)
What does it say? Is there a pic??
Hmmm...do our pocs show flags?
Don't know I ever noticed, or perhaps too dumm to remember. ;)
Too bad we cannot have the mounted policemen riding down the sides of the course to keep away any intruders like in the old days!
Too bad we cannot have the mounted policemen riding down the sides of the course to keep away any intruders like in the old days!
Here's a photo I've posted before, but perhaps others have not seen it. This is the 4th hole, with the mounted police in the creek!
Also, if someone runs onto a golf course while you are playing do you think they should be tasered.
Being taseed could only help my short-game mechanics at this stage.
Close your eyes while making the stroke.
Based upon his results, I was pretty certain
his eyes were closed! ;)
It is keeping me up tonight just thinking about how good this course could be if you could reclaim the land by the range and get someone in there who knows what they are doing.
Mike,
Are you able to give a brief update on the status of your efforts?
I got out to Cobb's Creek for the first time today (thanks to Joe and Mike), and was blown away. We played in 45F temperatures and a brisk breeze, but had a lot of fun.
There is some amazing architecture out there that'll only get better if the restoration work goes as planned. To me, Cobb's Creek is almost a case of urban archaeology - one that any GCA fan would be wise to study.
Uou really owe it to your self to get out there and see for yourself the diamond in the rough.
PS - The greens were in really great shape.... fast and smooth. Completely unexpected after all the rain we've had.
ok Philly guys a question, does anyone know why there is a two foot difference in elevation between the front and back nines at FDR???
Those of us with an interest in Cobb's Creek are happy to report the tome concerning the history and architectural history of CC is now here:
Edit: this web page isn't quite ready to go live yet. :)
If you guys know Hank Church perhaps you should let him know that he should take whatever Mike Cirba says with a large grain of salt.
Don't get me wrong, I have fond memories of Cobb's Creek. It is a good course with an interesting history and it would be nice if if could be restored in an economical and efficient manner. But hyping it beyond what it was is dishonest and counterproductive. Among other things, to say that Cobb's Creek "was known as the best public course in the country" is disingenuous at best.
Those who play the course and those who have a stake in the project deserve honesty, not mindless cheerleading. For example, they ought to know that course had serious problems from the very beginning and unfortunately some of those problems stemmed from the design itself. For one example, the five best holes all utilized the creek, even though it was prone to flooding, and this design decision has haunted the course throughout its existence. As for whether this issue can be corrected in an economical fashion while still preserving the original design, I have no idea, but it is something that would concern me were I a regular at the course.
If this restoration becomes reality, it will be a Top 5 public in the country...ALL DAY LONG! It will have it all. Historically, a tremendous story. Exceptional ground, with plenty of length and architectural quality. Affordable golf will be a component, supporting reduced rates for the locals and a very valued round of golf for the traveling visitor. Environmental benefit for: water bodies, upland areas and wildlife.
Let's all agree to return the thread to what is important from a GCA perspective; a wonderful opportunity to restore a quality, public golf course we all can enjoy. Sounds simple enough.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
Blast you or missed you? Not at all; definitely neither, but it certainly wouldn’t surprise anyone that you try to play the victim as you’ve done on here so often. You’re the one who came on here recently and once again gratuitously criticized Mike Cirba over a really minor and petty point (whether or not Cobbs Creek was ever known as the best public course in the country). No one has ever mentioned that point other than you. If someone else has why don’t you point out who it is?
All I did in five posts is point out Cirba does not deserve to be called disingenuous, dishonest and counterproductive on what he’s done with and for Cobbs Creek by anyone, and most certainly not by someone like you. I’ve followed these threads for years on Cobbs and I hosted some of the early meeting in the barn/office that set up their Friends of Cobbs Creek Committee that began to get the process going about four years ago. I introduced Cirba, Bausch and Walsh to Joe Logan who arranged to have us meet with Barry Bessler, the Director of the Philadelphia Parks who was responsible for Cobbs Creek. Without that back then nothing could’ve happened and Cirba has been there and with it the whole way.
Mike Cirba virtually wrote the book on the architectural history and evolution of Cobbs Creek and had it not been for what he did early on this restoration probably never would’ve been proposed at all.
Most who’re familiar with this website understand both you and MacWood have some burr up your asses about Philadelphia architecture and Philadelphia architects since the both of you are essentially the only ones who’ve claimed both are riddled with myths, lore and legends. It seems like you two went on a campaign years ago to continuously claim a number of people here have been responsible for that and perpetuate it. Nothing could be further from the truth. All we’ve ever done is maintain you two are wrong about that and particularly how and why! It involves your whole campaign about Wilson, Merion East and Cobbs Creek.
You should stick with your own region on the West Coast if you know anything about it. In my opinion, the West Coast Golden Age architecture and their architects have a remarkably rich and interesting history.
But I did make those posts regarding what you said about Cirba because I believe what he has done for architecture with Cobbs Creek is something you just don’t hold a candle to and probably never could. Therefore, I think it is more than appropriate for me to speak up and continue to if necessary. I think it is necessary when someone like you makes those kinds of remarks about him for a petty minor point like the one you used. In my opinion, you are not just worthless, you’re actually a bit worse than worthless when it comes to doing anything helpful and constructive in the world of golf architecture and its history.
I hope you mean it when you told Kris Shriener you’ve said you piece. It’s frankly about a half decade passed that time when it comes to your participation on anything to do with the subject of golf architecture in and around Philadelphia.
Mike,
I'll happily stand by my assertion. Beth Page, particularly the Black, is so much of what Cobbs WILL NOT be. You describe an odious, long slog, with a rather one dimensional presentation in the Black. Cobbs will(already does) provide a much more varied and testing balance of shot requirements, that ALL players will find stimulating and enjoyable. It can stand on its own and needs no supporting cast. You don't have the New York state resident limitations when booking a tee time either. Karakung, mercifully, will cease to exist in its present form, though a sporty nines holes will be crafted over that reconfigured ground, with the remainder open space and a junior golf component.
Tom,
Thanks for that information. Of the courses I've played on that Top 25 listed, Cobbs, TODAY, has better ground than at least three of them in my view. Not setting or conditioning. GROUND. In the end it's all about what one likes or appreciates. I'd welcome the opportunity to have you, David, and anyone else, come see Cobbs when the project is completed and you can judge for yourselves.
Cheers,
Kris 8)
David - would you allow that a post-restoration Cobb's Creek would be one of the top 5 publicly owned courses in the country?
I for one hope the project can be successful. I think the bones are there for something special. Really special.
PS - I'm proud of my friends for the work they've done. They have day jobs, and this has truly been a labor of love for GCA.
Do you honestly think it is the best interest of the project for Mike Cirba to be out there making false statements about Cobb's past reputation, and for those false statements to be published on Joe Logan's site?
Just curious,when you made Joe Logan aware of the false statements,what was his response?
Did he thank you and take down the false statements?Did he make corrections based upon your research?
Just curious,when you made Joe Logan aware of the false statements,what was his response?
Did he thank you and take down the false statements?Did he make corrections based upon your research?
Mike Cirba knows his claim was false and it is his responsibility to make it right. Has he contacted Joe Logan or Hank Church and explained that sometimes he gets a little carried away in zeal to promote the course?
But you failed to answer my question . . . .
Do you honestly think it is the best interest of the project for Mike Cirba to be out there making false statements about Cobb's past reputation, and for those false statements to be published on Joe Logan's site?
Besides, Imagine the lather you guys would have worked up had I gone to Joe Logan instead of posting this here. I'd be accused of trying to torpedo the project!
At Cobb's Creek, the model is more accurately Rustic Canyon or Wild Horse.than Bethpage Black. Perhaps a better analogy, given some of the steep hills and the winding creek that Mike mentioned is Augusta National. The idea is to accentuate and turn up the maintenance meld on the terrific original routing that utilizes the natural rolling landforms in interesting and varied ways. If some of us could have our way, there would be no rough but only short grass. The course being proposed is MUCH wider than today's due to gaining back 15% of the original acreage, as well as putting in an irrigation system that can support healthy turf on a wide fairway, as opposed to today's 1950s single-row irrigation heads, many of them busted. We would like the ball to run forever, frankly, with a firm and fast presentation. Cobbs never needed a lot of bunkers, and those that are in place are mostly "saving" bunkers that stop a moving ball from a worse fate.
Today's Cobb's has one major drawback which is a paucity of realistic forward tees for seniors and women. The front markers are sometimes only 5-10 yards ahead of the men's. This will be addressed, hopefully, through thoughful planning and placement. Also, the longest carry required to reach terra firma on any point of the course is about the width of the creek, also much like ANGC in that regard. The idea is to use the wonderfully low profile tilted greensites to be approached from whatever angle is advantageous for that day's hole location and to really let the landscape and greensites defend par. We'd like to keep lost balls and frustration of chopping out of rough or blasting out of bunkers to a minimum.
I think it's important for people to know that the goal is to have a course that is playable for everyone, but also that can challenge the best players from the back tees with tough hole locations and other subtleties for important competitions. We certainly don't see those goals as mutually incompatible and as mentioned, our models are where that has proven to work, as well as what we know Cobb's was originally.
To all:
From the last number of posts today I think you guys are finally doing a pretty good job of putting this fellow David Moriarty into the confined box he needs to be put in for what he has been saying about Mike Cirba and his ongoing efforts---and yes, statements, about Cobbs Creek's history, reputation and its recent restoration project.
Good for you guys----you are beginning to restore my faith in honesty and accuracy and its capacity to exist on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com!
Keep up the great work, Mike and Joe, and please keep us informed as to progress.
Changing the current theme of this thread...
Where is the USGA and their 250Million on this project?
Where is the City Water Dept and the EPA on this project?
Where is the City Recreation Dept on this project?
It's a shame this project will not be completed or perhaps not even started for the US Open next year.
It's pretty amazing the argumentative attention Merion has received over the years. To figure out who precipitated the whole thing the only thing anyone needs to do is figure out who were the ones who began criticizing Merion in the first place and why.
How 'bout those Phillies?
Verlander has a no hitter going against the Pirates
How can those be questions with no question marks?
David - Who cares?
But to answer your questions, I think it's been proved that CC was considered the finest public course in the land in the late 1920's.
Do you have proof that another public course was better than CC at that time?
However,Tom...whether you acknowledge the fact or not, at the time it was built until the 1930s with the creation of Bethpage, Cobbs was the best and most challenging public golf course in the country.
"He should be watching. Your behavior has been despicable on this thread. As usual."
He is watching and he is not happy with either of us. He asked me what I would suggest he do. In two emails I told him what I would suggest he do. One suggestion was that he carefully consider the seriousness and the civility of Post #1351 of today and that he put a post on here asking us (or anyone else) to use that as a basic example of the proper way to discuss things. Failing that I suggested if he has the time and the inclinaton he should delete posts or delete us. I specifically said he should consider deleting posts following your #1258 in which you gratuitously referred to Cirba as dishonest and disingenuous. That post clearly did not impress or make anyone on here happy.
I will take responsibility for posts of my own that may be inappropriate and I may even delete them myself. What will you do?
I have no interest in discussing your "interview."
David, what would happen if you just didn't post on this thread any more? Same question for Tom.
Some of you that say you've read all 'the tome' (as Mike and I refer to it), I really wonder if you did. It is about 350 pages in length and the presentation can be tiring on the eyes with many of the articles from old newspapers off microfilm, so I would not blame you if you just scanned it.
Some of you that say you've read all 'the tome' (as Mike and I refer to it), I really wonder if you did. It is about 350 pages in length and the presentation can be tiring on the eyes with many of the articles from old newspapers off microfilm, so I would not blame you if you just scanned it.
Why weren't you Philly guys playing today?? It's perfect out there.
The weight of my posts has been substantive and about the history golf course architecture and its presentation, so why is it exactly that I would quit posting?
David, what would happen if you just didn't post on this thread any more? Same question for Tom.
Bill,
The weight of my posts has been substantive and about the history golf course architecture and its presentation, so why is it exactly that I would quit posting?
I don't have it in me to be bullied into not discussing what I would like to discuss.
Joe
I haven't read all 350 pages of 'the tome,' but I have read the first 120 odd pages that deal with the course's formation. Another example of the overly aggressive use of big names to pump it up is the story that the great Ben Sayers was the first professional at CC. There are ten pages devoted to his life story. I don't believe there is any evidence of that being true although he was present at the opening. He came over to America a couple of times to vacation and visit his son. To my knowledge Sayers was never engaged as a professional in the US.
could somebody IM me when we get back to talking about the CC project?
David, what would happen if you just didn't post on this thread any more? Same question for Tom.
Bill,
The weight of my posts has been substantive and about the history golf course architecture and its presentation, so why is it exactly that I would quit posting?
I don't have it in me to be bullied into not discussing what I would like to discuss.
Nobody's trying to bully you into anything. But there is a substantial and grower number of participants on this board who just don't give a fuck anymore. Hopefully more will step forward to cajole, not bully, you into getting off Rocinante and giving it a rest.
Bill McBride said:
"David, what would happen if you just didn't post on this thread any more? Same question for Tom."
Bill:
I don't know; I don't know how to answer that and maybe I'm not the one to answer it. I'd rather you tell me what you think about that rather than me telling you what I think about it. Tell me what you think; believe me I can handle it. ;)
But I will tell you there are a lot of issues and subjects I care a whole lot about and I care a whole lot about determining their historical accuracy and the presentation of it. Those subjects and issues over the years have included Merion, Hugh Wilson, Pine Valley and Crump, Myopia, Shinnecock and later Cobbs Creek and particularly after some really good new research was done on it that inspired a restoration project which is on the table being considered and working through the usual complexities.
But I also feel there are surely two primary guys on this website who have sort of made it their mission to come after some Philadelphia architects and particularly after the way their clubs have handled their course histories involving those architects. I just don't buy a whole lot of what those two have said in so many instances, and I have said so and why I feel that way.
I know this stuff, these histories, can get complicated and interpreting them never is an easy thing to do; it's never very pat and probably never will be.
I just see those two as something quite different from what they constantly claim to be and it has been going on for close to a decade now. Again, they just seem to have made it their mission to go after Philadelpha, the accuracy of the history of its architecture and its architects and those who I feel know it and understand it best. I think it is probably mostly personal now and has been for longer than most realize; them with us and us with them, and as anyone knows that kind of thing sure does cloud objectivity and I suppose eventually civility, unfortunately.
Some on here put MacWood and Moriarty into the same category. I don't at all; I look at them very differently and I basically I always have. I have long felt that despite some oddities MacWood does have some very useful qualities with the history of golf architecture. But I'm afraid I just don't see that with David Moriarty, and I'm afraid I just never have. I have only met the man one time and that has nothing to do with it. 99% of my opinion of him is only about what he has written and said on here and particularly the way he has said it.
Tom MacWood:
One of the unique characteristics of the so-called early "Philadelphia School of Architecture" was that it was remarkably collaborative----eg it generally including many men contributing to the design pot of some of the early courses around here back then----Merion East, Pine Valley and Cobbs Creek.
As you have done so oftern and for so long, you can get your tail in a tizzy over what precisely is meant by 'full design credit' but I don't believe anyone around here back then or today does, nor should they if and when they truly understand the history and ethos of the "Philadelphia School of Architecture." The point is that Philly School was highly collaborative with numerous people and consequently their names were and are mentioned in the architectural attribution of those golf courses.
Tom MacWood:
One of the unique characteristics of the so-called early "Philadelphia School of Architecture" was that it was remarkably collaborative----eg it generally including many men contributing to the design pot of some of the early courses around here back then----Merion East, Pine Valley and Cobbs Creek.
As you have done so often and for so long, you seem to get your tail in a constant tizzy over what precisely is meant by 'full design credit' or even design credit. But I don't believe anyone around here back then or today does, nor should they if and when they truly understand the history and ethos of the "Philadelphia School of Architecture." Apparently you just don't understand it or wish to admit that reality of the ethos of that Philly School of Architecture. Or perhaps you do understand it but that your protestations are only about finding some minor and irrelevant detail that is wrong so you can carry on your decade long campaign of trying to prove something about Philadelphia architecture or architects wrong in some dreary desire to try to prove yourself to be some expert researcher/historian. And in your forelorn efforts in that vein you seem to have combined with that other participant, Moriarty, who has been up to your same suspect campaign towards Philadelphia and Philadelphians. The point is that Philly School was highly collaborative with numerous people and consequently their names were and are mentioned in the architectural attribution of those golf courses.
Thanks, Dave
So Ben Sayers was in Philly from at least June 1915 to September 1916? Hmm. Wonder what he was doing all that time, other than being glad that he missed his planned voyage over on the Lusitania......?
As for the "Alps" at Merion, my view from ~90 years onwards is that it was a ghastly hole and nothing at all like its template at Prestwick. Your view from 90 years onwards is different. Vive la difference!
As for George Sayers, someone who can finish in the top 30 or so in a US Open is not chopped liver vis a vis golf. The facts that he grew up playing golf on the template of all templates (i.e. North Berwick West), and was the son of one of the best of the very few credible Scottish golf course architects of the early 20th century (Dad Ben) make me speculate that he had "background." Why exactly do you disagree with this speculation?
Keep well, young man.
Ben Sayers made a small fortune selling his brand of golf clubs. I doubt he was in need of work at a public golf course. One of his biggest clients was the huge department store Wanamaker's, out of Philadelphia. You will find his clubs in their ads in the Philly papers at the time.
As far as I can tell there is no evidence he had any association with Cobbs Creek other than being involved with the ceremonial opening of the course. I'm not even sure the course even had a professional. I know they had a superintendent when the course opened, but it certainly wasn't Sayers. This is just another example of adding another big name to the courses history in order to boost its reputation.
On a related note I was surprised to learn Ben Sayers & Co. is still around. They claim to be the oldest golf equipment manufacturer in the world.
http://www.bensayers.co.uk/?page_id=62
Tom:
Someone was in charge of that committee, right?
So yes:
A was in charge of this
B in charge of that.
C knocked D with a wiffle ball bat
But who dolled out those assignments and held accountability and oversight?
Who determined what resources were applied and set up the construction schedule? What happened when setbacks occured?
That golf course didn't get built all willy nilly.
What you're really saying is that the Philadelphia School delegated and divided responsibility between talented individuals - much like many of today's architectural firms.
"Why not include Tilly on the list, and Father Carr, Howard Perrin, Robert Lesley, Fredrick Taylor, and maybe even the mysterious Howard Toomey, and perhaps JB McGovern and Alex Findlay, who were both based in Philly I believe. Why not, there is as much evidence those men were involved in the design as there is Travis, Thomas and Crump, which is to say no evidence. In the end we could make the CC story the greatest story of collaboration in the long history of the highly collaborative Philly School."
Tom MacWood:
Because I have never seen any evidence or mention that they were involved in CC as I have with the others on the list. If you have some contemporaneious evidence those you named were mentioned back then I would love to see it and what it is.
"Why not include Tilly on the list, and Father Carr, Howard Perrin, Robert Lesley, Fredrick Taylor, and maybe even the mysterious Howard Toomey, and perhaps JB McGovern and Alex Findlay, who were both based in Philly I believe. Why not, there is as much evidence those men were involved in the design as there is Travis, Thomas and Crump, which is to say no evidence. In the end we could make the CC story the greatest story of collaboration in the long history of the highly collaborative Philly School."
Tom MacWood:
Because I have never seen any evidence or mention that they were involved in CC as I have with the others on the list. If you have some contemporaneious evidence those you named were mentioned back then I would love to see it and what it is.
Why does that matter? There is no evidence Travis, Thomas or Crump were involved.
That will be fixed shortlyWhy weren't you Philly guys playing today?? It's perfect out there.
Because you didn't invite me?!
:)
DM
I run an 18 hole public course right near CC.
the last 4 days we were extremely busy.
tee times were booked from open to past 530pm each day.
we did a total of 887 rounds in this four day period.
we use 10 minute tee time intervals, except for the first 2 hours which are 8 min.
there is no way to do 900 rounds on one 18 hole course in one day.
Now, I have to laugh when I consider that in other select cases a few here have argued that when a group of novices brought in an expert like Travis for advice, that would lead a select few here to want to give Travis sole design credit! Here, the book just notes that he was involved in the project in its later stages of construction. 'Nuff said.
Another article from Joe Dey (1931, Evening Bulletin; this one courtesy of the Temple Urban Archives):
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7216/7242657532_4f03a5891b_o.jpg)
Sure these numbers could be for both courses, but all that really matters IMO is an insanely high number of rounds were played there.
Sure these numbers could be for both courses, but all that really matters IMO is an insanely high number of rounds were played there.
Dale:
I believe a few of the US Amateurs my father played in after WW2 had match play draws of 128. I have no idea though how many they tried to handle with on-site qualifying for match play.
TE,
That's correct, they had fields of 128 for the USAM..
I don't believe they had "on-site" qualifying for match play.
That's why you saw so many "byes"
Pat:
I think the most logical answer to those numbers is not to doubt Joe Dey.
I'm not doubting Joe Dey, I'm doubting his source, Alfred E Hand, who may be closely related to Alfred E Neuman.
Perhaps in those early years they or some just referred to the multi-course city owned complex as Cobbs Creek.
Research should be able to determine that.
But, it's doubtful that one man would be the superintendent for all courses, and yes, I'm familiar with Mel Lucas, an anomaly.
* I really don't want to argue about it, but is 127,000 rounds for two courses really an "insanely" high number of rounds? Likewise regarding an average of 60,000 rounds per year. If that Griffith Park number is accurate, then Cobb's numbers would seem pretty pretty manageable for courses out here, but then I come back to my initial assumption that Southern California has many more golfing days. Maybe D. Malley can give us an idea of what is considered a very busy year for a public course in that region.
As far as Philadelphia being a limited season area for golf, that is not a constant. For instance this last year one could have played golf for probably 360 days. There was virtually no winter here this last year as far as snow was concerned.
It is probably a better idea to look for some logical answers to some of these reported facts instead of just jumping to the conclusion that some people were and are comprehensively lying around here about various facts, as some on this website have tended to do over the years of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com.
... I am very much a supporter of a sympathetic restoration of a Cobbs, and I am thrilled that Gil and Jim are involved. I can think of no one better for the job. They are very familiar with that era of Philly courses, know what it means to restore a course, and also know something about creating quality public courses. And again, congratulations on all your hard work.
Would it make you happier David if I said "a very large number of rounds"?
Do you ever wonder why many people on this site grow so tired of dealing with you?
... I am very much a supporter of a sympathetic restoration of a Cobbs, and I am thrilled that Gil and Jim are involved. I can think of no one better for the job. They are very familiar with that era of Philly courses, know what it means to restore a course, and also know something about creating quality public courses. And again, congratulations on all your hard work.
I am now going to look for a star in the east.
David Moriarty:
Concerning what you just said in your #1436, do you have some kind of guilty conscience or something? It's generally a good idea if one does not deny something they were not accused of! ;)
Frankly, when I wrote that I was thinking of a number of other things on this website involving Philadelphia over time that some on here have accused others of lying on, such as Pat and MacWood essentially accusing Tillinghast of lying about his Pine Valley/Crump train discovery story.
I am now going to look for a star in the east.
Pat:
I certainly don't want to perpetuate any myths about Pine Valley, Merion, Myopia or any other golf course that I have been for years accused of doing by a few on here.
On how well one can see the land of Pine Valley from a train, let's just say I have certainly read your opinions about that and I do not agree with all you say, and I never have.
So what? You have your opinions and I have my own.
That's true.
That's why I want to visit PV with you and visually/physically re-examine the land and the views from the RR tracks.
We discussed this about a year or so ago and I think it would be most informative.
I've walked the length of the tracks, from east of the 14th green to west of the 2nd tee, and I stand by my assessment.
All we need now is an independent, well respected, unbiased, bona fide witness to record our findings.
How about Mike Cirba ? ;D
I am now going to look for a star in the east.
Joe Bausch,
A few times on this and other threads you have questioned my sincerity when it comes to supporting a sympathetic restoration of Cobb's Creek. You are wrong about this.
When I lived in the area I played there more than anywhere and surely more than at least one of those involved in the project, and have fond memories of the place. I have expressed my support both offline to Mike and online for the project in the past. I play at a Hanse-Wagner course pretty much every week, and while Wagner is a bit of a clown* I have great respect for both of their work and their knowledge of the courses of relevant time period. While we didn't publicize it, a few us spent a bit of time time trying to get a course out here restored a number of years ago, so I can relate somewhat to what you guys are trying to accomplish. I am a supporter of quality public golf and of quality restorations of quality courses, and therefore I support the project whether or not I totally agree with how it has been sold.
If you still don't buy it, see this thread http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36237.msg738368.html#msg738368
As I recall a certain designer seemed to be trying to glom onto the possible restoration work at Cobb's, and I very much opposed that based on having seen what the architect had billed as restoration work. If I am out to get your project, why do you suppose I would write, "There are only so many courses like Cobb's out there, and ruining one is ruining one too many. It would be criminal for Cobb's to be handled like Buena was. . . . My only direct knowledge is with Buena, and it was was very expensive and is not like anything Billy P. Bell ever did, as far as I know. I shudder to think of what xxxx might do to Cobb's. Does he have any examples of sympathetic and inexpensive restorations out there?" Was it all part of some conspiracy to get you guys off your guard so I could move in for the kill four years later?
What you don't seem to get is that, from my perspective, it is not mutually exclusive to have great respect for a project and/or place, on the one hand, and a strong desire for its history to be told accurately and without exaggeration, on the other. These two things are complimentary. I concern myself with presenting an accurate history in large part because I have tremendous respect for the places and their histories.
So rather than continuing to take passive-aggressive shots at my intentions and sincerity, why not focus on getting the history correct? Surely presenting an accurate and unexaggerated history is in the best interests of all.
Same goes for Bill and anyone else who sees fit to take similar petty pot shots or make this about personalities rather than histories. People who are incapable of setting aside these personal differences have no business even trying to take part in such conversations. Historical research and analysis is not about whether I like you or you like me, or about whose grandfather belonged to which club, it is about getting the story straight and presenting it in a accurate and unexaggerated fashion. Reason and facts see through all that other nonsense. It is as simple as determining whether Cobb's did 933 rounds on a single day, or whether it did not.
*Jim would need no explanation, but before the rest of you freak out, that was a little joke about Jim Wagner. So far as he knows or any of you know, I do not think that Jim Wagner is a clown. Or if I do think that, I am not saying it here. Except as a joke. Seriously.
So rather than continuing to take passive-aggressive shots at my intentions and sincerity, why not focus on getting the history correct? Surely presenting an accurate and unexaggerated history is in the best interests of all.
It is as simple as determining whether Cobb's did 933 rounds on a single day, or whether it did not.
David, you expressed your opinion of the exaggerated number of daily and annual rounds at Cobb's Creek many, many posts ago. Your continued hammering away at this marks you as obsessive. My brief comments have been intended to suggest it might be more productive to state your opinion and let it go, rather than arguing a single point over and over and over again, ad nauseum. Perhaps you just prefer to be annoying, it's your call.
How many times do I have to have played Cobb's before I am allowed to comment? I'll put my ratio plays to posts against TEP's any day.
In a similar vein, you asked;
As for your post above, as you said all that information is in your work. I don't think repeating it here addresses Tom's questions or mine. For example, I don't understand how you guys distinguish between someone like Carr, who was also on the committee but gets little credit, and someone like Crump, who is on the same committee but is hailed as if he was one of the designers.
My post of yesterday where I chronicled all of the information we had on George Crump's role in one place chronologically was meant to address Tom MacWood's contention that there is no evidence that Crump was involved in the design. Similarly, I pointed to the evidence from the book to address our mentions of Walter Travis, George Thomas, and Ben Sayers, and indicated specifically what was written about each.
This was in recognition of the fact that not everyone here is inclined to wade through 344 pages of details looking for the information. Essentially, I felt that Tom's statements were calling my integrity into question, and needed addressing, so I was happy to provide that first-hand evidence which I think points out that 1) Crump was on the Committee charged with locating a site for a golf course in 1913, and subsequently he was put on the design and construction Committee which created a routing of the course in 1914, and journalists mentioning who all were involved in the creation of the course mentioned that Crump (along with others) volunteered to do this "for the love of the game". I think that's pretty compelling, frankly.
Thanks, again,
Mike
Tom,
If you would be so kind, I would appreciate you posting the following;
David Moriarty,
Thank you for your words of support and encouragement in post #1425. It is greatly appreciated and hopefully we can move forward in any of our dealings with each other in that spirit of discussion and not confrontation.
Finally, perhaps a little lesson to all of us when we question each other's honest and integrity...
Some months back all of us were involved in the silly and pointless imbroglio about whether AW Tillinghast's account of George Crump being able to see that the rolling land which later became Pine Valley was markedly different than the usual flatness of south Jersey. Patrick in particular stated that this would have been impossible because of the thickness of the trees as well as the speed of the train and the limited view of a passenger on that train.
That's correct
This past winter, without knowledge of the other, both Bryan Izatt and I went to Pine Valley to take photographic evidence of what was visible from those railroad tracks. Both of us arrived at similar conclusions that 1) The amount of deciduous tree growth was roughly half the forest, and in some areas was the predemoninant growth.
IN 2012.
Early photos from the teens, 20's and 30's show far more pines than today's growth.
What this meant with the falling leaves and dying away of undergrowth is that it would have been hard to miss the difference of the underlying hilly, sandy terrain compared to the rest of their trip across low-lying plains, and that 2) there is no way that it would have been impossible for someone to make that observation.
As I stated previously, if there were no trees you couldn't see most of the property due to the intervening ridges, three of them, that obstruct the view from the tracks looking south.
Your photos below prove that point.
Patrick's other point was that the train was moving too quickly, and that a passenger sitting facing in the direction of travel would have a very oblique, at best 90-degree view out the side of the train at the passing terrain, hardly enough concentrated time to see the forest for the trees, so to speak.
However, this assumption is where the problem lies. First, let's look at some of the surrounding terrain just off the tracks;
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7047/6903577347_53172c79bd_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7036/6903573925_e4582d4a66_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7065/6903584189_b2e67ced0f_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7209/6903426933_50d4b724ab_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7057/6903418047_8989037fde_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7038/6903421063_8220964eaa_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7207/6903415169_f7abf8634a_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7056/6903405679_cce1b5a309_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7066/6903206857_e1dbf631d5_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7066/6903206857_e1dbf631d5_b.jpg)
I've purposefully tried not to show the pictures I have where you can see long views into the property because to be fair, those areas had trees removed for golf. And, I guess it's plausible to argue that someone sitting facing the conductor on a coach seat in a passenger train travelling at 70mph might have to be pretty quick and astute to notice differences in topography out their side window.
I'm glad that you now agree that views would be severely limited and fleeting.
However, I've had this picture of George Crump getting off the train in Atlantic City for some time now and it wasn't until this past winter that I realized something that shows George Crump not only had a side view out his window, as well as out the other side, but also long, dedicated views of the terrain BEHIND him in the distance.
Those views would ONLY be available if the individual was sitting on the south side of the train facing the rear of the train.
Here's the photo, and notice the car that Crump is disembarking from. Notice it's position at the end of the line;
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7041/6911086939_d1f2217644_o.jpg)
Also, notice how they're dressed.
It appears rather cold.
I did some research on passenger trains of this era, and this is what I learned.
[bAn observation car/carriage/coach (in US English, often abbreviated to simply observation or obs) is a type of railroad passenger car, generally operated in a passenger train as the last carriage, with windows on the rear of the car for passengers' viewing pleasure. The cars were nearly universally removed from service on American railroads beginning in the 1950s as a cost-cutting measure in order to eliminate the need to "turn" the trains when operating out of stub-end terminals.[/b]
Here is the type of car that George Crump was travelling in, as well as a good indication of the type of view he would have had along those tracks just after Clementon Station. Although Patrick will likely never admit it, I think everyone else can make their own determinations as to whether Tillinghast's story about Crump's discovery was "impossible";
You've just proved that it's impossible.
Your contention is that Crump, sitting with his back to the front of the train had "improved" views, when nothing could be further from the truth.
When sitting with one's back to the front, the passenger's lateral view is restricted by their ability to turn their neck 90 degrees.
One has to strain to do so.
The normal view is probably 60 degrees.
In addition, one wouldn't turn 90 degrees, because there's no expectation of a view.
Everything in front of the passenger is unknown because the passenger has their back to the view in front of the train.
Sitting with one's back to the front is very disorienting.
Whereas, sitting facing the front allows the passenger to see what's on the visual horizon, what's coming up, hence the passenger can fixate on the object and rotate his view from 60 degrees to 90 degrees and more.
This isn't possible when sitting with your back toward the front of the train.
In that position, everything that can be seen and observed is already past you and as we know, the view directly behind the train reveals NOTHING.
ONLY sharp, lateral and forward looking views would have the hope of observing something.
And as the pictures you posted so clearly illustrate, the land forms block any and all views to the south
Statistically, there's only a 50-50 chance GAC saw anything, for if he was sitting on the north side of the train, he wouldn't see PV but, the land north.
And, if he was sitting facing the rear of the train, which you now claim, his vision would be far more impaired than if he was sitting facing forward.
From the clothes the gentlemen are wearing, we can rule out them sitting on the observation platform on a train in the early morning in the dead of winter traveling at 60+ mph.
So, thank you for further proving my point, that the story is a myth, that observations of the land, as described, are impossible, from a train speeding at 60+ mph, eastbound, in early the morning with the low winter sun in your eyes, looking east, and that if you were sitting with your back to the front of the train, it's even more impossible to see anything laterally, especially when the land forms block any views to the south.
Perhaps now that you've presented your photographic evidence we can now put this myth to rest.
P.S Bryan Izatt informed me that he visited the site this past year and I correctly guessed that you did as well.
Thanks for finally proving that the story is nothing more than a nice myth.
I knew it all the time. ;D
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7188/6911087079_901e86185b_o.jpg)
Thanks, again,
Mike
Mike Sweeney, unlike your last few, the vast majority of my posts were intended to be constructive. Your talking points are a little off:
- None of my posts indicated that Mike Cirba is evil.
- I know a bit about the course because I lived in Philadelphia and played it several times.
- I support a sympathetic restoration of the course because I think it worth restoring and because, provided the politics works out, Gil and Jim are capable of creating something special there.
- Not a huge fan of what has become of the Olympics, but I am glad Gill got the job.
Didn't back of anything. Didn't say it or imply it in the first place. For reasons I don't understand, you are misrepresenting my posts.
And 933 was only an issue because it took so long for others to acknowledge that such a ridiculous figure was indeed ridiculous. As I said things are slow going with this crowd. Remember how long it took for people to admit and acknowledge that Wilson didn't study abroad before he built Merion East, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary? I don't think some are there yet!
From the actual Golf Association of Philadelphia (GAP) meeting minutes of January 1915, we learn of the group members. Ironically, Hugh Wilson's name is somehow omitted here, although it does appear in many other news reports, as well as in other GAP meeting minutes.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7099/7230756286_f430b2bb41_o.jpg)
Mike,
Stop taunting.
Tom MacWood:
I don't know why you keep missing them and why you keep questioning the same point about Crump but there are two articles conatained in Post #1423 that mention Crump and Meehan were appointed to a committee to design Cobb's Creek. Some may not mind you asking constant questions but when you are given accurate answers to your constant questions on the same point and you ignore them and just keeping asking the same queston over and over again, it really does get to be a bit much for those who have provided you with the answers to your questions. Maybe you should do your own research on Cobbs Creek. Cirba and Bausch have certainly done theirs, and it is impressive.
Your overall question, however, seems to suggest that before going forward to city officials, the management company, local golf authorities, etc., I somehow needed to fully document, footnote, cross-reference, and somehow substantiate under cross-examination every one of hundreds of articles over a century of history of the efforts around creating public golf and the course at Cobb's Creek to a standard admissible under a court of law.
Tom:
I'm very sorry but I'm just not interested in continuing to pursue this very same Cobbs Creek/Crump question and point of yours that I view as truly unecessary and irrelevant hair-splitting. Obviously you have your own unique way of interpreting historical material and as you know I have always felt although you seem to be a very good raw researcher, you are just not a good historical analyst. I think your interpretation and suggestion on HH Barker designing Merion East is pretty much where and when you basically lost all credibilty on here with just about everyone as a competent historical golf architecture analyst.
No problem at all that you or anyone else have their own opinions and interpretations on some of these issues but to me trying to explain these things to you over and over again is just a waste of time.
I told you back in Feb. 2003 when you found a few articles on Macdonald and Merion that prompted you to start a thread ("Re: Macdonald and Merion?") on it in which you asked us to tell you (essentally hole by hole) who specifically did what on that golf course---that we do not know those kinds of architectural details because those things were just not recorded in detail----frankly they never really are on golf architecture projects. I even explained to you that you should spend a couple of weeks on a routing and design project and you would learn this for yourself first-hand. I've done that about a dozen times over the years on routing and design phases of projects and if there are a number of people out there contributing and collaborating, at the end of the day even they couldn't tell anyone whose idea everything was. What's the point anyway? The idea out there is to collaborate and come to some consensus opinion on what works with anything. After that there is usually some kind of agreement, the things gets approved and they all go on to something else.
Why you can't understand that is beyond me other than the fact that you just have never experienced it or seen it first-hand.
You should have listened then but apparently you never did or never will, and so your irrelevant questions in that vein seem to just go on and on and on.
I do apologize to you if you feel what I have said here is in some way personal or a personal criticism of you. I do not intend it to be that and I just don't look at it that way at all. This is only about golf course architecture and HOW our experiences with it, and particularly on the ground with golf architecture projects, very much tend to inform and educate us to the ways it always goes out there, both back then, today, and probably into the future as well.
I'm sorry but you have to admit over the years you, and some others, have tried to get us to believe some pretty wacky ideas.
I think the total is up to sixteen designers that at one time or another a local sports writer said laid out the golf course:
Wilson, Smith, Klauder, Carr, Lesley, Meehan, Sargent, Flynn, Crump, Travis, Slatterly, Vogdes, Pepper, Corson, and throw in Geo. Thomas and Ben Sayers even though there is no mention of them. That must have been one very large table they all sat and collaborated around in most friendly collaborative effort while displaying an ethos of remarkable collaboration and brotherly love.
Lets not insult everyone's intelligence we all know the primary designers were Wilson, Smith and Klauder. Those were the men most often and consistently mentioned, and those are the men (along with Sargent) commended for their untiring efforts at the GAP annual meeting in 1916. All the rest of this windowing dressing meant to exaggerate and inflate the reputation of the golf course.
Joe
Good to see you take the high road. This is a real class operation.
How did you decide on the nine designers for the essay, because as you know there are others mentioned? Was their reputation a consideration, or lack of reputation? Have you found any evidence Thomas was involved.
Joe
I really don't get into the personalities, or personal attacks. My focus has always been on trying to discover what really happened, even if a well established or beloved tale falls by the wayside. I'm not personally attached or emotionally invested in any of these stories.
Joe
No, I'm not kidding. If you aren't interested in discussing the essay, or discussing Cobbs Creek, or discussing golf architecture just say the word and I will drop my questions.
How did the process work, how did you decide who was included and excluded from the many named designers, and what evidence have you seen regarding George Thomas.
Folks,
Does the creation of Cobb's Creek hint at the feelings that private club members had for their public brothers back then?
I'm really happy that these men of some of Philly's most prestigious clubs were out there working to provide quality golf for the non-member. And I love how Pine Valley opened its doors in '28 for Publinx players.
Are there other examples where the leaders of the private club scene in a city worked together to provide quality municipal golf?
For what it's worth, that's the hidden jewel in this whole story, and why the restoration of CC is so important to me. It's a testament that describes people of all backgrounds coming together to improve the quality of life for the common man.
David/Tom,
What, if anything, do you disagree with in post 1495?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31872.msg1196715.html#msg1196715 (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,31872.msg1196715.html#msg1196715)
To better explain to Mike and others what seems to be some very stretched logic and exaggeration, I have broken down the coverage of George Thomas' involvement in the design.
We all know that Thomas respected Wilson and said that Wilson taught him "many things at Merion and the Philadelphia Municipal," and advised him by mail regarding GT's early California designs. I've asked repeatedly (as has TomM) for any other contemporaneous documentation indicating or even hinting that Thomas might have been involved in any aspect of designing Cobb's, but Mike ignores these questions and continues to repeat the above, throwing in Geoff Shackelford's suppositions about he same fact for good measure. But no matter how many times he repeats it, there still is only one single statement by George Thomas.
What we have is a child's game of "telephone" where one item gets passed along and the story changes and grows with each exchange. It is a good example of how these legends get going, and perhaps a cautionary tale of what happens when we rely on secondary sources instead of first-hand sources:
1. GT said Wilson taught him "many things at Merion and the Philadelphia Municipal," and advised him by mail regarding GT's early California designs. GT gave no indication of what "things" he learned and gave no indication of when this took place. Nothing about GT being at these places during construction, and nothing specifying whether he was at the East Course, West Course or both.
2. For reasons not explained, G. Shackelford seems to be supposing that the above statement means that George Thomas must have spent time a lot of time studying both Merion courses and Cobb's during the construction phases of each. A large part of seems to be supposition, but given that Geoff isn't making any claims about Thomas having helped designed these courses, it doesn't seem like a big deal, but so far as I can tell it is not supported anything other than the single statement by GT.
3. Mike treats Nos. 1 and 2 above as if they were two different sources of information, even though the only contemporaneous info is the one GT quote. Mike quotes G.Shackelford to try and establish GT was there studying the courses during construction, and then quotes GT (apparently from Geoff's book.) Really there is just GT's statement that he learned many things.
4. From there Mike really gets going. (my emphasis)
- He lists Thomas as one of "The Designers" of the Cobb's Creek Golf Course. (ToC)
- He claims Thomas "spent considerable time 'learning' from Hugh Wilson onsite during the design and creation of Cobb's Creek." (p.5)
- He claims "it is likely" that Thomas contributed design ideas and that those design ideas were "factored into the final collaborative mix."(p.5)
- He claims that Thomas was "regularly on site" with Hugh Wilson as Wilson "designed Merion (both courses) . . .." (p. 104)
- He claims that being "regularly on site" helped take Thomas' "course design knowledge to the next level." (p.104)
- He again claims that it seems that Thomas spent "a good deal of time at Cobb's Creek with Hugh Wilson." (p. 104)
- He claims that "it is likely" that Thomas' "opinion was sought, valued, and considered, by Hugh Wilson and his other friends of the Philadelphia School who collaboratively designed the course. (p. 106)
- He again claims that it seems that Thomas spent "a good deal of time" at Cobb's Creek. (p. 106)
All that from a single statement by George Thomas that he "learned many things at Merion and the Philadelphia Municipal."
So far as I know, George Thomas said . . .
- NOTHING about when he visited Merion or Cobbs.
- NOTHING about Thomas being there during the "design and creation" or even the "construction" of either course.
- NOTHING about "regularly" visiting either course or spending "a good deal of time" at either course.
- NOTHING about whether he visited "both courses" at Merion.
- NOTHING about offering his design advice to Hugh Wilson about either course.
- NOTHING about his advice being sought, valued, considered, or followed at Cobb's.
- NOTHING about being one of "The Designers" of Cobbs, or of helping "design and create" the course.
I keep asking if there as direct contemporaneous evidence supporting any of this, but so far there appears to be NOTHING. At best Mike's indirect posts just keep repeating the one quote and Geoff Shackelford's suppositions from that fact.
This is one of many good examples of the kind of stretching and exaggerating throughout the work. GT wrote that respected and learned from Hugh Wilson at Cobbs and Merion, and next thing you know he is out there at Cobb's on a regular basis, helping Wilson design Cobb's.
I still don't understand why the same logic doesn't apply to Merion? GT learned from Wilson at Merion, so by Mike's logic he must have helped design it? Wilson learned from CBM at NGLA, so I guess Wilson helped design NGLA as well?
I also don't understand, if this was the collaborative project as described, why Thomas singles out Wilson? He describes learning from Crump at Pine Valley, but doesn't mention Crump as having any involvement at Cobb's.
Anyone !
Is that green and surrounds still in existence ?
Anyone !
Is that green and surrounds still in existence ?
Joe,
I immediately thought of the 12th at Garden City Golf Club.
I love the almost castle like green with it's sand moats and berm fortifications/defenses.
Why wouldn't anyone like to restore that green and surrounds ?
No idea, Kyle.
Take a look at the green complex on the current #10 at Cobb's Creek. I have now dubbed that the "Tie Fighter green" and I will make it my mission to have that fully restored. ;D
But to even suggest that this green could be due to Travis' reported involvements at Cobbs would be oh so wrong. Just ask David and TMac for their opinion, which is fact normally.
But I'll check with the experts in central Ohio and southern California to be sure.
Posted on Mike Cirba's behalf:
Finally, I'd ask you why you didn't correct Tom MacWood's obvious interprative error when he read the William Evans article incorrectly, believing that the mention of Wilson, Smith, and Klauder being newly assigned to help the Fairmount Park commission indicated they were the only ones involved when a careful reading indicates that the layout was already routed at that point?
Thanks for your response,
Mike
The hole looks like fun. To me an interesting factor is with what looks to be a slight ridge running up the middle of the green.But to even suggest that this green could be due to Travis' reported involvements at Cobbs would be oh so wrong. Just ask David and TMac for their opinion, which is fact normally.QuoteBut I'll check with the experts in central Ohio and southern California to be sure.
Joe Bausch, you are full of these passive-aggressive little swipes lately. It is easy to take such shots without actually engaging in anything relevant, but hardly productive. I keep hoping you will actually try substantive discussion sometime as I think we would all benefit.
In truth, I don't know anything about the origins of that golf hole. Why don't you fill us in? Am I wrong in assuming that was the work of "shaper" Flynn? If I am wrong, I'd like the record set straight to so so reflect. As a few of us are interested in the hole, if you have any information as to its origins, we'd be grateful. That is the sort of thing I was hoping for in the Cobb's work.
Likewise regarding the rest of my questions and comments. Instead of pushing this toward yet another juvenile battle of personalities, why not address the substance?
No idea, Kyle.
Take a look at the green complex on the current #10 at Cobb's Creek. I have now dubbed that the "Tie Fighter green" and I will make it my mission to have that fully restored. ;D
Pat,
I have dreamt for 5 years about restoring that green complex. I nicknamed it the "Tie Fighter" green because it resembles the shape of the spaceships from Star Wars when you look at the aerials. When we first saw the original green complex, all of us commented on how it looked similar to the bold features Travis utilized on many of his courses... It was not long after that we learned he did visit Cobbs at least once.
Geoffrey,
Armed with aerial and ground level photos, a faithful restoration would be spectacular.
But, I wonder if the modern golfer would appreciate the final product.
Regards,
Geoff
David, did I or Mike state as fact that this green was done by Travis? Is this question relevant enough for you?
Will you next question Geoff about his thoughts? He has lived in Philly longer than me.
I"m with David on this one. That is unusual for a Flynn Green.
Wayne M. where are you??
Malcolm,
You're not allowed to mention his name on this site.
Just refer to him as Lord Voldemort, he whose name cannot be mentioned ;D
David,
Thanks for your interest and support of the Cobb's Creek restoration project. Have a nice holiday weekend.
Mike
"I'm sure you won't throw out the baby with the bath water."
absolutely not
How neat would it be to get back to those kinds of numbers on public golf courses in our area!
Having attempted to negotiate the LA municipals prior to the opening of Rustic Canyon, I speak from experience when I suggest you guys be careful what you wish for. Overcrowding and congestion can lead to poor conditions, neglect, and six hour rounds, and can sap the life out of a quality layout just as much an unsympathetic restoration.
Does Philly have any sort of a rationing program or system set up to assure that city residents are allowed first shot at access it its city courses? When I was living in they area access was not much of an issue, but that could change if the restoration is successful.
I haven't read through 62 pages and I never will without penalty of death but congratulations to all who restored or preserved a course important to the Philadelphia community.
Posted on behalf of Mike Cirba
I also see where Tom MacWood questions my judgment of his interpretation of the William Evans article. Perhaps if I just show the parapraphs in question I can explain better.
Now, Tom reads the following January 31st, 1915 article as indicating that only Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, and George Klauder designed the golf course. I think he makes a basic mistake here, as the course was already routed seven months prior to then as I will show in a moment. But here are the two paragraphs back to back, and I think you'll see what I mean.
We see in the first paragraph clear indication that the course has been routed as Evans tells us that the creek is used "on six holes as hazards guarding the greens".
Then, in the next paragraph, we see the mention of the three men who "will aid" (future tense) "the park engineers in laying out the course", which clearly means the construction process by that late date.
Those summer figures represent a foursome every 6 minutes for 11 hours a day. You guys want grass on your golf course, right?
Those summer figures represent a foursome every 6 minutes for 11 hours a day. You guys want grass on your golf course, right?
Kyle,
You can't go by math alone, you have to also factor in "daylight"
If groups began teeing off at 8:00 which was reasonable, the last tee time, if rounds took 3.5 hours, would be 5:30 pm, for roughly 9.5 hours of tee times.
At 40 golfers per hour, with no starter's time or gaps, that's 380 golfers per day, max, if everything worked to perfection.
Less, if things weren't so perfect.
Those summer figures represent a foursome every 6 minutes for 11 hours a day. You guys want grass on your golf course, right?
Kyle,
You can't go by math alone, you have to also factor in "daylight"
If groups began teeing off at 8:00 which was reasonable, the last tee time, if rounds took 3.5 hours, would be 5:30 pm, for roughly 9.5 hours of tee times.
At 40 golfers per hour, with no starter's time or gaps, that's 380 golfers per day, max, if everything worked to perfection.
Less, if things weren't so perfect.
Exactly. And I was presuming a not unreasonable for daylight beginning time of 6AM!
I think it's likely groups were sent off with as many as 6 or 7 or 8 golfers!
Keep in mind there were reports of pace of play being absolutely atrocious - hour wait on a hole.
That would alter the numbers considerably. !
^^^
OT - I liked the story about the "cross-country golfer"
Posted on behalf of Mike Cirba
I also see where Tom MacWood questions my judgment of his interpretation of the William Evans article. Perhaps if I just show the parapraphs in question I can explain better.
Now, Tom reads the following January 31st, 1915 article as indicating that only Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, and George Klauder designed the golf course. I think he makes a basic mistake here, as the course was already routed seven months prior to then as I will show in a moment. But here are the two paragraphs back to back, and I think you'll see what I mean.
We see in the first paragraph clear indication that the course has been routed as Evans tells us that the creek is used "on six holes as hazards guarding the greens".
Then, in the next paragraph, we see the mention of the three men who "will aid" (future tense) "the park engineers in laying out the course", which clearly means the construction process by that late date.
I think the total is up to sixteen designers that at one time or another a local sports writer said laid out the golf course:
Wilson, Smith, Klauder, Carr, Lesley, Meehan, Sargent, Flynn, Crump, Travis, Slatterly, Vogdes, Pepper, Corson, and throw in Geo. Thomas and Ben Sayers even though there is no mention of them. That must have been one very large table they all sat and collaborated around in a most friendly effort displaying an ethos of remarkable collaboration and brotherly love.
Posted on behalf of Mike Cirba
All,
I haven't had the opportunity to read to much in the past day or so, but I did see a picture of the old "Tie-Fighter" green as Geoff Walsh dubbed it and noted that Patrick Mucci instantly saw the same comparison that I did...to the old 12th at Garden City. It also bears close relation to a similar greensite Walter Travis did at Columbia. With that in mind, some months back when I was still on the site I speculated that this might have been a contribution by Walter Travis to Cobb's Creek, simply because it is such a complete "one-off" from virtually every other greensite created there, most of which are very low-profile. I further speculated that this might have been a particularly troublesome area for construction, as most of the land right around there slopes away very steeply, and is the site of where very visible earthmoving took place (for instance, to create today's 13th tee).
Now, as the guy in charge of features, I'm thinking that William Flynn was at least physically and mentally capable of creating something like this, particularly with Travis's instructions. Do we know? No, of course we don't, but we know both Flynn and Travis were involved and have documentation providing those facts.
What I find a bit "interesting" is that since that picture was posted, after Patrick's response some now seem to see value in that hole. If memory serves, it was posted previously by the same folks and used as an object of ridicule. At that time, when I posted pics of the greens at Garden City and at Columbia I was assured that I was indeed an idiot, out of my mind, and probably disengenous, as well. ;) ;D
Mike, thus is wonderful news for all of us who love architecture and who are working to support municipal golf. Congratulations. You are wise to anticipate future obstacles. As a wise man once said, " it ain't over till it's over".
Way to go Mike, Joe and everyone else that jumped in with you guys!Jim,
I'm every bit as happy for you as I am proud of you for getting this far.
It looks like an enormous project that includes the surrounding area. It is a wonderful investment in the future and a restoration of what was. Congratulations to Mike, Joe, and all the others that pushed for this project,. It was nice to watch the progress from afar. When I was in Philly a few years ago I purposely walked the property. I can't wait to play it.Tommy,
Letter sent via email and old fashioned hard copy. Neither Joe nor Mike asked me to do this. It is simply the right thing as I know some Board members via Philly golf friends:
Cobbs Creek Foundation
300 Conshohocken State Road, (https://google.com/maps/place/300%20Conshohocken%20State%20Road%2C%0D%0ASuite%20405%2C%0D%0AWest%20Conshohocken%2C%20PA%2019428)
Suite 405, (https://google.com/maps/place/300%20Conshohocken%20State%20Road%2C%0D%0ASuite%20405%2C%0D%0AWest%20Conshohocken%2C%20PA%2019428)
West Conshohocken, PA 19428 (https://google.com/maps/place/300%20Conshohocken%20State%20Road%2C%0D%0ASuite%20405%2C%0D%0AWest%20Conshohocken%2C%20PA%2019428)
Dear xxx
In the history of the Saint Joe’s Prep golf teams, my status as the #4 player on the 1980 team that choked very badly in the Catholic League Championships will be very difficult to find in the archives of 17th and Girard!! That said, I still count today many friends from that team that I play with at many fancy clubs in Philly, da Shore, Florida, Rhode Island, and I even got XXX, my 1980 Captain, out to Sand Hills Golf Club.
While my family were “House Members” at Overbook GC, and The Prep had Monday matches at The ‘Brook, my Dad did not play golf, so my learning of the game started in my Freshman year (cut from the Prep team) at Walnut Lane. Of course it grew at Cobbs Creek where The Prep Golf Team had Friday matches and most of our practices. I have lived in Manhattan for 30+ years, and I have been fortunate to play at and be a Member many wonderful golf clubs from around the world, but “Cobbs” has always remained my “Hometown Home Course”.
In those golf travels, I discovered the website GolfClubAtlas.com (http://GolfClubAtlas.com) via my host and friend at Sand Hills Golf Club. This was when 97+% of golfers had never heard of Sand Hills. One of the first reviews I read on GCA.com (http://GCA.com) was about Walnut Lane Golf Course, and it is still there today!! https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/walnut-lane/ (https://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/walnut-lane/)
What kind of a website would write about Walnut Lane??? :)
It is somewhat embarrassing to admit, but I have been on GCA.com for 20+ years, and I remain because of the passionate golfers, historians, architects, and kooks that love the game and playing fields of golf. Mike Cirba, Joe Bausch, and their “Architectural Appreciation” friends have posted volumes of information about Cobbs Creek, and their work reminds me of the famous Winston Churchill quote:
“I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat.” Winston Churchill.
It is my suggestion/request that they be recognized on: 1) the Cobbs Creek Foundation website, and 2) the grounds of the new-Cobbs Creek Golf Course. I believe they possess many “Ignatius Qualities”, and please understand that while they are occasional golf partners, they did NOT ask me to write this letter.
“Love ought to show itself in deeds more than in words.” Saint Ignatius Loyola.
In addition, the new-Cobbs Creek looks like it aspires to be very inclusive. In my journey of life, I have become an Advocate for the Developmentally Disabled, focused on People with Autism like my son Dustin. If you should be interested to speak about playing and caddying opportunities for People with Autism, I am happy to help at my “Hometown Home Course”. My wife and I have been strong Advocates for Broadway for our son and his friends -
https://www.tedxbroadway.com/talks/2017/1/11/theater-for-all-katie-sweeney (https://www.tedxbroadway.com/talks/2017/1/11/theater-for-all-katie-sweeney)
Sincerely yours,
Michael W Sweeney
4th Man of the 1980 St Joe's Prep Golf Team
Thanks for sharing Mike and well said. I played on the golf team at The Prep in the early 90's and was captain of the team my senior year. By that time we had moved from playing matches at Cobbs to courses like Juniata, Bala and finally Twining Valley. I would love to speak about playing this wonderful game to People with Autism, as my oldest son is on the spectrum. I can be reached via my email below.
Chris Roselle | GAP Tournament Director
Celebrating Amateur Golf Since 1897
610-687-2340, ext. 29
Chris! I read your note about people with autism becoming more involved with the game of golf. I happen to think it's a great idea. I worked as a school psychologist for 39 years in the Philly schools with a lot of special kids, some of whom were on spectrum. I'll assume that you know something of the debate on Moe Norman. Was he an individual with an autism spectrum disorder or were his atypical behaviors the consequence of a sledding injury (TBI) as a kid growing up in Canada? If you are not familiar with Moe's story, do some reading. It's funny, tragic but most of all inspiring.
I'm a fellow Prepper (Class of '67) but I was too busy playing baseball in high school to be truly serious about golf. I'll note that I did give up my interlocking grip to a foul tip, while catching a game against Bonner at 33rd and Dauphin. That small incident taught me a lot about rehabilitating sports injuries but a lot more about adjustments (physical, mental and expectations) and accommodations. Realizing that golf teaches much more than hitting straight drives and avoiding three-putts, it was heartening to see bags of clubs in principals' offices. First Tee has so much potential!
I've played with amputees. I've played with blinded golfers. They've taught me a great deal. I hope that I was able to share something valuable with them. There have to be half a hundred uses for the proposed learning center at Cobbs but there are a lot of genuinely talented teaching pros, who have a track record of working effectively with young golfers. I'm very interested to see people with all sorts of challenges gain greater access to the greatest game. Golf can satisfy as a completely solitary pursuit and it can satisfy as a stimulating social encounter. I've played it both ways as I'm sure you have too. Best wishes to your and to your son.
Is El Limon in every Bausch story?
Is El Limon in every Bausch story?
Is El Limon in every Bausch story?
Bausch is to El Limon as Mayday is to Flynn.
https://youtu.be/d1cvFscSwEM (https://youtu.be/d1cvFscSwEM)
Worth some time. Nice recognition for Mike and Joe!
You guys did a great job.
Solid interview by Connor.
Looking forward to playing it in the future.
Mike/Joe I read this and wondered how can this statement be true as the plans are all there.Also really like the ending quote as it is the essence of what this project is all about. Show me where you spend your money and I'll show you what you value. Kudos.
- Szmulowicz said the foundation has not provided the public detailed plans about where the steep slope exemption would be used and for what.
- “Not one dollar of government money from this city is going into the restoration of that golf course,” Jones said. “That’s $60 million-plus we can count raised by people who care about the historic nature of the first integrated golf course in the city of Philadelphia.”
It's always Sunny In Philadelphia, although I must admit I didn't see the ukelele coming. ;D
The last hurdle has finally been cleared and re-construction and restoration of Cobb's Creek Golf Course will commence.
Philadelphia Council exempts Cobbs Creek Golf Course from environmental law (inquirer.com) (https://www.inquirer.com/news/cobbs-creek-golf-course-philadelphia-city-council-20230202.html)
;D ;D ;D ;D
Mike , Joe et al ..so great and can't wait to see the work begin in earnest!
Our annual spring party here at the Jersey Shore will no doubt have a portion of the dinner devoted to the history and significance of Cobbs Creek in the area and golf world. Going to try and get you guys and a bunch of others who really know the story to participate this year. Bausch remains defending champ but ??? ??
;D ;D ;D ;D
Mike , Joe et al ..so great and can't wait to see the work begin in earnest!
Our annual spring party here at the Jersey Shore will no doubt have a portion of the dinner devoted to the history and significance of Cobbs Creek in the area and golf world. Going to try and get you guys and a bunch of others who really know the story to participate this year. Bausch remains defending champ but ??? ??
The public is going to (99.99 mostly) love it when y'all are finished. Big congratulations and go break ground!
This is great news! On Monday I will be starting my new position at Becker and Frondorf as Project Manager as the Owners Rep for the upcoming Cobbs project. Looking forward to seeing everyone again and seeing this all finally coming to fruition!
Watch this space.
Watch this space.
Oh, I'm watching.
Perhaps tonight I will clean my bifocals so my vision is keener!
Thank you, GolfClubAtlas.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/sports/tiger-woods-cobbs-creek-renovations-charlie-sifford-20230314.html%3foutputType=amp (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/sports/tiger-woods-cobbs-creek-renovations-charlie-sifford-20230314.html%3foutputType=amp)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52747237264_afde4ae88f_b.jpg)