Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Sean_A on April 30, 2007, 07:38:49 PM
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I just read M. Hunt's poll rankings and saw Yale listed top 50 in the world by this panel. Yale has intrigued me and climbed steadily up my wish list of places to play since joining GCA.com. I know much has been written, but I think I joined this site in the middle of some major changes/renovation. I have already looked at Ran's profile, does anybody plan on doing an updated in depth analysis of the course with pix or have I missed it?
Ciao
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Sean
There are some 2-3000 fewer trees at Yale since that review was revised after the first ever official GCA outing. In addition, the greens are some 25% larger, fairways expanded, mowing patterns altered and bunker edges and surrounds maintained such that they ALMOST look presentable. WIthin the next few years my hops are that Scott Ramsay will fully restore the course and its intended playability- Scott hates water and intends firm and fast conditions.
I spoke with Ran last week and there are plans for updated photos and a revision sometime this year.
You have an invite to play should you invade this side of the pond.
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Sean, don't know if you've played or seen any of the MacDonald / Raynor courses, but Yale is like the others on steroids! Only NGLA comes close of the ones I've seen, which also include Chicago, The Creek, Mid-Ocean and Mountain Lake.
Yale is just heroic in its scale, and you can imagine Raynor and maybe Steamshovel Banks out there with sticks of dynamite and lighted fuses clearing the rockpiles out of fairways.
Take Dr Chids up on his offer anytime you are in the USA and you won't be sorry........
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Having had the pleasure of playin all of Yale a couple years ago and the front nine about a year ago, I'd say that the tree clearing has done wonders for the golf course, aesthetics- and conditions-wise. I remember being upset that my team would not be able to play all 18 last year, because I was chomping at the bit to take on the 18th post-tree removal.
Also, Mr. Ramsay is not only a great Superintendent, but a great guy as well. I was flattered that he introduced himself to me on the putting green at my home course last fall, and that he answered a couple of my queries about the work he's done on the course. Makes me wish I'd studied harder over the past couple years and had gotten into Yale ::).
Cheers.
Tim Gavrich
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The recent Golf Digest insert with the 100 Greatest Courses and the best in each state makes me laugh.
Not only is Yale not in their top 100, but it's ranked 6th in Connecticut.
What a joke.
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Both Lake of Isles courses and Great River ahead of Yale?
Egads, Mark!
Bow wow.
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Geoff Childs,
Any pictures showing the improvements that you could share with us would be appreciated.
Yale is a treat to play, it's quite unique.
Scott's to be complimented on his efforts .... and results.
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Geoff Childs,
Any pictures showing the improvements that you could share with us would be appreciated.
Yale is a treat to play, it's quite unique.
Scott's to be complimented on his efforts .... and results.
Pat - better yet come up and see for yourself. I'd love to play with you and you should bring TEPaul along.
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I've been fortunate enough to play Yale seven or eight times, but none since the tree removal product. I HAVE to get up there sometime this year.
This course, more than any other, has inspired my interest in GCA. Pictures can't do it justice. Bill's description of it as "heroic" is just perfect.
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Played there last year with the good Dr. Childs and cannot imagine that there are five better courses in Connecticut than Yale. The difference between my old MPCC Dunes course and Yale shows what Seth Raynor was able to accomplish in his ouevre. The Dunes, although difficult in any sort of wind, was a benign walk in the park compared to the muscularity of Yale.
Bob
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Let me add that Geoff and I have played the last three weekends and were quite surprised how the course has drained considering all the rain we've received. It is still quite wet in spots but one thing is for sure, Scott is going to have the greens fast later this summer.
One caveat for anyone coming is that as of Aug 1, the 4th fairway will be undergoing a drainage project and could be out of commission for a month or so--I have to ask Scott this weekend when Geoff and I will see him (the membership is honoring him after our Opening Day tournament this Saturday).. I'm sure they'll turn the hole into a par 3 or something but the 4th is one of the top three holes at Yale and must be played to be appreciated.
The tree removal has restored the epic scale (that never really left) and even someone like me who has been known to spray it around can still have a fun round even when my C game is not on tap.
Geoff and I hopefully will host the MAESTRO later and if the picture taking is fine he'll be able to update the review but the sexy stuff will really be in 3-4 years if Scott's plan is finished to fruition and there is a double punchbowl on the 3rd hole.
Either way I plan on taking pictures this fall in the right lighting for the course.
Sean- Being a member at Yale now and at Deal means I have a ton of fun golf to play.. Yale is deserving of its lofty status although I bet you can guess where I would be if I had a single solitary round left in my life.
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Mark and Sean
I spoke with Ran this past week and he is intent on updating his course profile on Yale. When the weather gets better and we ahve some good lighting I will attempt to help him with some good photos documenting the fantastic work that Scott Ramsay has done to expand out all the greens, remove as many as 3000 trees, create a real alternative fairway on 18, and restore width and firm conditions to the course. Ran's prose will certainly be better than any of my dry, caustic scientific style of writing so I'll do my best to help him if he wishes.
That said- There was a hole by hole review of Yale here in the past and it was the precursor of what we wish to do today. That is, it documented all the abuses the course received rather then its tender loving care as seen presently. I hesitate to rehash old wounds but for the newer members of the discussion group below are some links to holes discussed in the past. I hope that public airing of the abuse the Courses at Yale received has had something to do with its present improved state.
hole 1
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6624;start=msg127109#msg127109
hole2
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6867;start=0
Hole 4
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6952;start=0
hole5
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7001;start=msg134352#msg134352
hole6
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7082;start=msg136251#msg136251
hole7
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7159;start=msg138277#msg138277
hole 17
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7977
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If you do visit Yale in the summer don't do what I did. I insisted on carrying my clubs. After one hole I was done for, by the 4th I just longed for a nice, cool grave. The estimable Dr Childs wondered if I might like to take a buggy at the turn. It is to Dr Childs that you must address any complaints that I am still posting on this site and not becoming instead food the worms of Connecticut.
It was a fabulous experience and a memorable golf course.
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If you do visit Yale in the summer don't do what I did. I insisted on carrying my clubs. After one hole I was done for, by the 4th I just longed for a nice, cool grave. The estimable Dr Childs wondered if I might like to take a buggy at the turn. It is to Dr Childs that you must address any complaints that I am still posting on this site and not becoming instead food the worms of Connecticut.
If you were in that state by the turn, Mark, I suspect the climb to the 10th green (after the climb and descent into the 10th fairway) would have killed you! :)
FWIW, through no fault of my own I seem to have singlehandedly changed the character of Golf Digest's corporate membership at Yale. When I was an intern there I was told that we were encouraged to get out and play as much golf as we could (or words to that effect), and that we had playing privileges at Yale. Naturally, Yale being what it is, I played there as often as I could, often nipping out for nine holes during the summer evenings, not realising that our membership had an overall cap on the number of rounds we were allowed. Eventually I got called into the principal's office and told that henceforth I - and everyone else - could play there a maximum of twice a week. (Gary Van Sickle, who as a Golf World writer was also affected by the new limit, cited this incident when he bashed me and my book in a "review", to use the term loosely, he wrote for CNNSI.com.)
I would someday love to see the new Yale, but the old Yale (pre-Rulewich, admittedly) was itself a real treat regardless of conditioning. Mind you, Yale was the least favorite course of many of my college golf teammates by a distance, which only goes to show how certain architectural features rub people in entirely different ways!
Cheers,
Darren
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Bumping an old thread re Yale. See recent CT Post article on condition, note comment about 18 inch growth in fairways? Can this be??
https://www.ctpost.com/sports/article/Yale-Golf-Course-closed-through-end-of-July-15315145.php (https://www.ctpost.com/sports/article/Yale-Golf-Course-closed-through-end-of-July-15315145.php)
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Yikes.
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It’s the only golf course in Connecticut not open at this time. ::)
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Oh no. Maybe Colin Sheehan can update us on the plan. Don't want to see this go off the rails.
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wow
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Yale has been dragging their feet all year, even before the pandemic hit. Earlier in the year when they announced Scott and Peter we’re leaving in successive weeks you could tell something was amiss. Golf is up 10% in Connecticut the last two months year over year. Why wouldn’t a golf course be open? I don’t have as much faith in a master gardener taking care of the golf course as the Athletic Director does. At the very least, show him where the fairway mowers are and give him the keys.
This quote sums up the urgency of the situation: “Chun said a new superintendent will be hired at some point.”
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With students suing for tuition reimbursement I wouldn’t open the course until I opened the classrooms.
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Shack has a story on his website today.
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Shack has a story on his website today.
Hanover CC which is owned and operated by Dartmouth College is "closed for the season." Apparently the eggheads who make the decisions at these Ivy league schools never got the memo that playing golf is one of the safest activities there is during this pandemic. I feel bad for the people in New Haven and Hanover who belong to these clubs as they will have to find another place to play this year.
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Shack has a story on his website today.
Hanover CC which is owned and operated by Dartmouth College is "closed for the season." Apparently the eggheads who make the decisions at these Ivy league schools never got the memo that playing golf is one of the safest activities there is during this pandemic. I feel bad for the people in New Haven and Hanover who belong to these clubs as they will have to find another place to play this year.
JP-For Yale the amount of upheaval has been considerable with both the long time superintendent and Head Golf Professional becoming collateral damage. Really a shame as both made a difference in a positive way.
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For those that haven't had the pleasure of playing Yale Golf Course, you might like my photo tour based upon a handful of visits (usually with Tim Martin!):
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/YaleGC/index.html (http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/YaleGC/index.html)
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Shack has a story on his website today.
Hanover CC which is owned and operated by Dartmouth College is "closed for the season." Apparently the eggheads who make the decisions at these Ivy league schools never got the memo that playing golf is one of the safest activities there is during this pandemic. I feel bad for the people in New Haven and Hanover who belong to these clubs as they will have to find another place to play this year.
Perhaps you don't understand the concept of colleges and the use of their facilities.
Right or wrong, the Ivies are re-considering those college-owned assets that have a net negative cash flows, weren't designed for, nor ceded to, general public usage and consequently are line items on the liability side of the balance sheet. They are also potential future legal liabilities to their owners.
They are closing them up because they see the next 12-24mos as a very difficult period for their school economics.
This isn't an imprudent step as these schools don't see their facilities as essential public access product. As a golf fan (and an Ivy league graduate), would I like to see Yale open...absolutely...you bet, but it is no different than any other private course that maintains the right to assess their business prospects and make decisions based on their own priorities and needs.
PS..The real problem for Yale GC is that not enough of their successful and esteemed alumni have bothered to earmark sufficient specific endowment funds for the continual maintenance and operations of their wonderful course. Instead, the only ones interested wanted to trade it out of the University's ownership for a vastly inferior property nearby. Even the often insular cap & gown crowd recognized the stupidity of that move.
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Steve - do you think Yale would ever sell the course to remove it from their balance sheet?
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Yale is the Crown Jewel of college golf courses and one of the great accomplishments of the Golden Age. I wouldn’t conflate the tepid response involving the current situation with what might ensue if Yale ever considered a sale.
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Yale is the Crown Jewel of college golf courses and one of the great accomplishments of the Golden Age. I wouldn’t conflate the tepid response involving the current situation with what might ensue if Yale ever considered a sale.
It's quite obvious that Yale in incredibly mismanaged. I am a member of a university owned course in upstate NY, a course that hosted the NCAA D1 championship back in the late 70's and it is open for play and in fine shape. Maybe Yale should consider a management company to run the place as they are obviously not capable of running it themselves.
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I agree with Tim and don't believe the school would consider a sale....just yet. After all, they did turn down an offer years back.
Ultimately, anything can happen, but the college has most certainly been approached by various management companies and hasn't budged either.
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Right or wrong, the Ivies are re-considering those college-owned assets that have a net negative cash flows, weren't designed for, nor ceded to, general public usage and consequently are line items on the liability side of the balance sheet. They are also potential future legal liabilities to their owners.
Do we know that Yale GC has yearly losses from it's income statement? Take year 2019 as the FY 2019-2020 will be an outlier.
Also the decision to divest Yale GC would be a very large strategic decision as the land is a large asset. You would have to look then at the balance sheet to see the whole picture. Outsource the operations to a management company via lease, sell to a buyer for the land value itself we don't know.
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I’m a member at a university course. Furman University. Our course closed for the month of April because of the virus. It was the only area course that closed! A few of the faculty leaders said the reason for the closure was because the optics would be bad for the university if it remained open while the main campus was closed. After a month reasonable thought prevailed and the course was allowed to reopen May 1 with numerous virus related restrictions. But, hurrah, we were again able to play!
I have no idea how the golf course affects Furman’s bottom line or balance sheet, but it is one of the most popular golf facilities in the area. I can’t imagine it not being considered a positive asset.
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I was never enamored by the many complaints towards the union workers at Yale. Perhaps paying a living wage was just a bit much for their esteemed alumni.
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This is an informative thread with some real legends at work: ForkaB is Rich Goodale
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23467.msg430271.html#msg430271 (https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23467.msg430271.html#msg430271)
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I agree with Tim and don't believe the school would consider a sale....just yet. After all, they did turn down an offer years back.
Ultimately, anything can happen, but the college has most certainly been approached by various management companies and hasn't budged either.
Steve-Most of the press coming from the Roland Betts offer was from him. Although the town of Woodbridge was willing to listen I don’t believe those that had a say at Yale ever took it seriously. Betts was involved in a battle to build Yale Farm GC in Norfolk, Connecticut and ultimately pulled the plug in 2009 over environmental issues that couldn’t be solved. I’m not saying Yale didn’t look at his proposal but if he wasn’t an alum I wonder if they would have?
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Right or wrong, the Ivies are re-considering those college-owned assets that have a net negative cash flows, weren't designed for, nor ceded to, general public usage and consequently are line items on the liability side of the balance sheet. They are also potential future legal liabilities to their owners.
Do we know that Yale GC has yearly losses from it's income statement? Take year 2019 as the FY 2019-2020 will be an outlier.
Also the decision to divest Yale GC would be a very large strategic decision as the land is a large asset. You would have to look then at the balance sheet to see the whole picture. Outsource the operations to a management company via lease, sell to a buyer for the land value itself we don't know.
No you and I don't know, but I do know people familiar with Yale's finances.
Yes, it would be a large strategic decision, but the balance sheet wouldn't have much to do with it. Outsourcing to a management company isn't a viable solution due to union contracts that govern operational decisions. Very, very low probability Yale would likely sell the land for a wide number of reasons. What would begin to remotely make sense would be a very long-term land lease (i.e. 99yrs) to a party willing to invest significant $$ into the course and operate it sensibly.
Tim,
Roland Betts indeed made plenty of noise...enough to go noticed and (hopefully) persuade other Yale alums to agitate for a deal. Don't forget who his partners were on the deal...They made Yale consider it, but it didn't take long for them to realize it was lopsided and beneath the market.
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No you and I don't know, but I do know people familiar with Yale's finances.
Yes, it would be a large strategic decision, but the balance sheet wouldn't have much to do with it. Outsourcing to a management company isn't a viable solution due to union contracts that govern operational decisions. Very, very low probability Yale would likely sell the land for a wide number of reasons. What would begin to remotely make sense would be a very long-term land lease (i.e. 99yrs) to a party willing to invest significant $$ into the course and operate it sensibly.
Steve,
The balance sheet for the university would include the land value (at fair market value) in the property, plant, equipment (PPE) line and if they were considering selling would obviously be needed. As many know you can't depreciate land, you can reassess to fair market value. It is an option for them I'm not saying it will happen, but if it does then the balance sheet is where to look for that.
The income statement is what any potential operator would want to see as they don't own any of the assets, but want to see if operations have been profitable. Of note is that Yale operates as a Section 501(c)(3) tax exempt entity, any operator lease wouldn't have that same tax shelter.
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Jeff,
Trust me, I well understand what a balance sheet is and isn't, same for an income statement and 501 (c) (3) status. I deal with these every day....probably far more frequently than you.
You seem to be missing the "read between the lines" part. Yale's balance sheet is a fortress, no matter that they are expecting a loss of near $1B in revenue over the next 12mos.* David Swensen has done a solid job of managing their $30B endowment.
The income statement for the golf course most probably reflects a spectrum of moderate losses to break-even or some occasional or line-item fractional gains. As you note, the tax shelter privilege wouldn't extend to any third-party operator, yet they would be forced to accept Yale's labor union contracts. Do the math and you'll quickly see why no legitimate golf management company would be interested whatsoever.
You seem to opine on many, many things around these pages, but in this case the nuances of a centuries-old institution and a hardened policy of rarely, if ever, divesting any substantial assets or facilities might escape you. Furthermore, Yale knows full-well how treasured their course is, however they (must) remain sensitive to the optics of what attention and monies they pay to it. To golf aficionados, we cringe in frustration at their reasoning and bemoan it's not opening, but it belongs to the university...not us.
If Yale decides to play collegiate golf next season (and our very own Colin Sheehan is the ONLY source worth listening to on that), I'd wager the course will be measurably groomed and reopened in some fashion. It is, as most know, the absolute finest college course existent.
* Maybe look at the very recent Bloomberg article about Harvard University's efforts to lower their headcount and substantially cut costs (in anticipation of substantial income losses ahead).....then tell us about why Yale is wrong to keep it's course closed.
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Jeff,
You seem to opine on many, many things around here, but in this case the nuances of a centuries-old institution and a hardened policy of rarely, if ever, divesting any substantial assets or facilities might escape you. Furthermore, they know full-well how treasured their course is, but remain sensitive to the optics of what attention they pay to it. To golf aficionados, we cringe in frustration at their reasoning and bemoan it's not opening, but it belongs to the university...not us.
+1
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* Maybe look at the very recent Bloomberg article about Harvard University's efforts to lower their headcount and substantially cut costs (in anticipation of substantial income losses ahead).....then tell us about why Yale is wrong to keep it's course closed.
Steve,
I DON'T want Yale sold first and foremost, just referenced that if done, you need the FMV from the balance sheet and then add goodwill probably for the history and Raynor tie. Certainly not trying to insult anyone by doing so, if I said something wrong please let me know. If you agree great. I'll relent to not reading as many 501c 3 tax filings, not particularly interesting as we know.
I don't see how we are saying anything different, or contradictory. I never hinted that Yale should divest from this golf course, but commented on the options as you have.
I read and learn, sometimes I have an view or opinion which may or may not align with others or perhaps even turn our wrong . So it's a good thing it is a discussion group.
In regards to Harvard, just looked at the couple paragraphs they printed and I'm not surprised. Higher Education has to maintain budgets and if their garden variety product (fact to face instruction) is compromised, their two boards should be demanding prudence. It isn't the Harvard's and Yale's that are really in jeopardy unfortunately, they are the top of the totem pole and have earned it.
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Jeff-The dissertations on virtually every topic are patronizing and exhausting. People understand the premise of a balance sheet and income statement. ::)
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When it comes to online degrees becoming the norm it is exactly Harvard and Yale that are at jeopardy.
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When it comes to online degrees becoming the norm it is exactly Harvard and Yale that are at jeopardy.
Online degrees, especially at the undergraduate level, will not become the norm. If there is one thing that is almost universally agreed upon about the spring quarter, it's that remote learning blows and isn't close to comparable to the educational experience of being on campus, in classrooms and dorms, with other students.
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John you of all people should know that the "living wage" component of union contracts is not as big a negative factor as the huge inefficiencies imposed by restrictive work language and grievance games.
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John you of all people should know that the "living wage" component of union contracts is not as big a negative factor as the huge inefficiencies imposed by restrictive work language and grievance games.
I'm a union contractor and have spent far too many hours on this site talking about my great life to disparage the men who have made that possible.
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Online degrees, especially at the undergraduate level, will not become the norm. If there is one thing that is almost universally agreed upon about the spring quarter, it's that remote learning blows and isn't close to comparable to the educational experience of being on campus, in classrooms and dorms, with other students.
I know the thread's about Yale but hearing this, I would be surprised to hear that DC is a faculty member at a college/university, because:
In the first case, this emergency situation was not a meaningful test of the online model that will be more prevalent-ingrained by Fall 2021, that the crisis itself pushed along; and it was barely a reasonable test of extant remote learning tools, as there was little in place besides Blackboard (for example) in which both teachers and students were fluent. Courses that were already online were not affected with near the degree of disruption that "live" classes were, as faculty and student expectations and protocols were already known.
During this whole societal interruption, the maximum flood of training modules, WebEx seminars, remote learning conferences and tutorials have been flooding the faculty with voluminous, focused sessions offered almost all summer long. If one is lagging or hoping to return to normalcy as opposed to getting these tools down pat, there will be accountability (at least in my venues). If you are an Instructional Technology Designer you are going to be in fish and loaves for the next decade.
A bigger question is the disparity of tools that students have to do online course work... not all students (especially Community College students) have adequate access to technology or have to compete in a financially challenged home whose parent(s) may be needing the bandwith/connection...some don't have laptops or PCS and relied on the school locus to do most of their work... an online model will also have to better tackle the tangent resources of the library, the labs, and the extra curriculars that support the overall mission. WebEx and Zoom don't shine as virtual tools when some portion of the class doesn't have the compatible hardware/fluency to use them...
One concession I will make to the spirit of Dan's post (which seems so perfectly familiar of the contemporary parent of a remote college learner) is that both myself - and I suspect faculty at large - gave utmost forbearance and tolerance for the oft ragged work of students after the March 12-15 closures... though Spring Break was a natural pause in the term, it was too late in to assign the normal weight to post -quarantining lesson units... so if students had a good record when classes were live and stayed reasonably engaged with the materials via the sea change of all-remote... they were rewarded in greater measure than they were demeritted for failures to do so... I had to exercise compassion before normal discipline. If one portion of one class/one semester was forever ruined by the disruptions of switching to remote learning in a global crisis... so be it.
It was tough and varied...I had 68 students in four classes at two schools... I had some straight B+/A kids withdraw without so much as an email...I had flagging students pick it up and use it as a chance to earn amnesty for previous failures... I had 4 students who lost household members to the virus and a total of 8 who reported having it themselves. I had lazy average students do their best to obfuscate and feign confusion over remote procedures... the vast majority of them did almost/as well as they would've in the normal environment.
Again to repeat, saying online learning blows and will not become the norm from this emergency environment is like saying in 1997, the internet blows and will never last because the dial up speeds in 1997 were shitty... or you couldn't yet download music at a click...and there was no Wikipedia or YouTube...
If we are truly entering a new world of contagion-awareness and social risk, the dorms and sports will go before the remote learning goes, whether it blows or not.
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John you of all people should know that the "living wage" component of union contracts is not as big a negative factor as the huge inefficiencies imposed by restrictive work language and grievance games.
I'm a union contractor and have spent far too many hours on this site talking about my great life to disparage the men who have made that possible.
My father was a union contractor and felt the same about his men. He may not have always agreed with the union leaders but he ALWAYS respected the men and they respected him.
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Yale golf course is now scheduled to reopen Sept. 28:
https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2020/9/23/yale-golf-course-is-finally-back-september-28th (https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2020/9/23/yale-golf-course-is-finally-back-september-28th)
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A curious but welcome decision. The Ivy League has no Fall sports with everything postponed until 2021. Additionally the season historically is wrapped up by December so it will be approximately two months long.
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I'm hoping to revisit Yale this season. I love the place.
Here is a photo album using pics from multiple visits over the years:
http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/YaleGC/index.html
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I'm hoping to revisit Yale this season. I love the place.
A number of people have contacted me this week, and here is the update as best as I know.
Yale Golf Course, sometimes referred to The Course at Yale, is only open to CT Residents and Students who reside on the Yale campus, and it seems the off-campus students in the New Haven area too. I am guessing that policy will remain for the balance of the 2020 year. I live in the "Ground Zero" area of Manhattan, so I am guessing I will be last in, if ever after this post. :) Here is the latest:
https://yalegolf.yale.edu/reopening-guidelines
I am a golf nut with an Autistic son, and that has brought me many moments of joy and sometimes frustration with the golf world as Dustin is often ignored or often given subtle signs of resistance at some of my favorite golf clubs that I have visited or have been a member of over the years.
That was never ever true at Yale Golf Course.
My friends Peter Pulaski (Pro), Scott Ramsey (Super), and some other names that I choose not to publish are all gone from Yale Golf Course in 2020. This was "baked in" prior to the Covid era, and CV-19 just gave "them" some excuses to "separate" from my friends or vice versa. The Yale friends were all "Friends of Dustin" over the years, and I genuinely appreciate their support. I hosted a bunch of fundraisers over the years at Yale and The Creek for the benefit of my son and his friends. Ran was always supportive, and I appreciate the support of Ran too.
I had so many great moments hosting so many GCAers, friends, and others from the golf world at Yale GC. However, when I saw this extremely ugly sign on the outside of the Yale GC clubhouse a couple of years ago, I knew the tides had shifted:
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57408b97f85082130768fb62/1601422250977-AB6SG3ETC1U7YGOK1BW3/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kKg_3kB6bKcAnxM_jqoBWUF7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UQ1U4Iw2DgJkW55r2ivzIc7XoYcHChP4J_E0qVirWjEmm7cT0R_dexc_UL_zbpz6JQ/Screen+Shot+2020-09-29+at+7.30.28+PM.png?format=800w)
My beloved college sports and their venues are now at the will of corporate dollars, and this is also the case at Yale and The Ivy League. Dartmouth closed their course, and Brown dropped their golf program. To be fair, I have seen the same thing at Boston College (my undergraduate alma mater) for years, where we sold out long ago (not golf, but college sports in general).
In contrast, the Naval Academy Golf Course just re-opened after a renovation to much acclaim, but that was mainly due to a "Friend of GCA" who drove the renovation, and not corporate sponsors.
I have pictures from August 2020 of greens at Yale GC that I will not publish, and I hope the course is back on its feet this week. It was a great great run, and I genuinely hope the next management team "keep the spirit" of Yale Golf Course alive. I always wanted to host Sean Arble at Yale because it would certainly be his "cup of tea" on and off the course:
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57408b97f85082130768fb62/1601423711377-KQSXPI2VLJZ5P8FS3S6F/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kFSdyQXj84icECt7faAa2bR7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UZ5qcPSOycG4x3tPt1M4vNl_kBsUUaDBiEDAHS3MSaRB1rSt1bkQUEt50h35cOOikg/IMG_0586.JPG?format=800w)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57408b97f85082130768fb62/1601425043757-RQPAI5K0U2812XDVGTL4/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kD5mixDQKeZEV7AFKsSsvK17gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QHyNOqBUUEtDDsRWrJLTmUJhYbF90H-5_X8RF95sdngsyJaRVlfUaKrAkpGC-lHou550JA6UqYbVUAlke11B3/IMG_0381.JPG?format=800w)
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And I am guessing Under Armour won't get to "25 years at Yale":
https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/ucla-under-armour-contract-termination-lawsuit (https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/ucla-under-armour-contract-termination-lawsuit)
Under Armour notified UCLA in June that it had ‘made the difficult decision’ to end its partnership with the university ‘as we have been paying for marketing benefits that we have not received for an extended time period.’
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My understanding is that the 9th hole is currently closed with work in progress. Play will start on the 10th hole and finish on number 8.
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My understanding is that the 9th hole is currently closed with work in progress. Play will start on the 10th hole and finish on number 8.
What's up with the Biarritz?
And hopefully the hot dogs at the 4/9th house will still be available. ;)
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My understanding is that the 9th hole is currently closed with work in progress. Play will start on the 10th hole and finish on number 8.
What's up with the Biarritz?
And hopefully the hot dogs at the 4/9th house will still be available. ;)
They are doing construction on the left side of the path you cross to reach the green. Not sure what the scope of the work is though.
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Some more info on Yale's current status if you haven't read it already.
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/Yale-Golf-Course-2020
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"Palacios said Chun is heading up the project, with multiple architects expressing interest."
[/size]
[/size]I'm interested in this quote. Certainly, some of the architects we would love to be engaged by the University don't need the job to make a name, but would certainly take the job. I wonder what architects have expressed interest. Any ideas?
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"Palacios said Chun is heading up the project, with multiple architects expressing interest."
I'm interested in this quote. Certainly, some of the architects we would love to be engaged by the University don't need the job to make a name, but would certainly take the job. I wonder what architects have expressed interest. Any ideas?
Colin Sheehan has been quietly working with Gil Hanse's team for some time. I don't know the details. The green expansions have been very consistent in house. The bunkers need some work, again. However, it really needs a re-grassing similar to what happened at the Naval Academy GC. Here are some historical views that Colin maintains -
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO2WGAbLvLj9aHI3-yXq2Vm14Vl_8q9azV2KH9qn9jMD1g8_KdMFMGnBnz4tQBrOg?key=cVpmNUhSM0k1NU9CZmNKZzBqYkJiZ2tueE43MmFR (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO2WGAbLvLj9aHI3-yXq2Vm14Vl_8q9azV2KH9qn9jMD1g8_KdMFMGnBnz4tQBrOg?key=cVpmNUhSM0k1NU9CZmNKZzBqYkJiZ2tueE43MmFR)
I don't know new-Peter and Vicky Chun's solution at Colgate's Seven Oaks was to bring in Billy Casper Management. BCM appears to be changing from their website, so I don't know what that means to Colgate Seven Oaks. What did not work at an Upstate RTJ course, a pretty good RTJ course, is definitely not going to work at Yale GC where you have a historic design, with complicated terrain, water issues with CT, and a desire to host significant NCAA events. Through the miracle of marriage to a Colgate alumnus, I have some knowledge of Vicky Chun's work at Colgate, which was great for basically everything other than the golf course. Nothing bad was done to the course, but "lack of appreciation" is a fair assessment.
At many organizations, there is a constant need to "bring in the consultants", and dismiss the internal knowledge that has been gathered for years. Sure, Gil Hanse could help because of his clout that he has with other restorations. However, all reports are that Gil is a smart guy and would want and should get Colin's input, and Scott's input.
I don't know all the politics, but I do know an apology or two, or three would help.
Lux et veritas (light and truth) is Yale's motto. Time to start living it. :D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3erWyN1e69JRuVkjbivlQQKoLHnY3PPtiGqfZFiyHo9S77aRhLu5Dr-C15M5zonWHliy_O6Qq0bLLB5ViK_V-jnnL2NyCztlv1XmUJZ228uzObQOW3aS21VAKyw52R6xhT6BS8Vk18F6GW1_R75L5YJZA=w2732-h1534-no?authuser=0)
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From Golfweek: 'How Yale, the country's best college golf course is back from the dead, by Joel Beall, Sept 30
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/Yale-Golf-Course-2020 (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/Yale-Golf-Course-2020)
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"The greens were aerified for the first time in 10 years ..."
That can't be accurate, can it?
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A semi-digression. The Duke University course is part of a hotel/conference center complex. The course generally is well maintained. Does anyone know if being part of the complex contributes positively to the economics of the golf course?
Thanks.
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I have recently heard rumblings that Yale was bringing in RTJ II to help restore the course. Anyone else heard that?
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I have recently heard rumblings that Yale was bringing in RTJ II to help restore the course. Anyone else heard that?
I have heard the same and let's hope it's not true. You would hope they would defer to Yale golf coach Colin Sheehan but I would believe anything with that place.
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Having fond memories of playing there some 40 plus years ago, I hope some experienced MacDonald/Raynor restoration architect would offer a "college fee". Yes, I know Yale has a huge endowment, but that is probably not the lens through which they will make its decision and it would be a shame for the restoration to fall into the wrong hands.
Ira
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"The greens were aerified for the first time in 10 years ..."
That can't be accurate, can it?
Not accurate. From the November 2019 newsletter:
November 2019 YGC news
November is a month to prepare the Yale Golf Course for the 2020 season.
We have planned many agronomic practices and programs to improve and protect the golf course;
Deep-tining greens will take place on November 13 and 14. The greens will be rolled and ready for play as soon after each green is aerated, so disruption to play will be minimal. We have moved the dates up this year, so all the holes will be healed over by the first mowing in 2020.
Greens and approach top-dressing has already started and will continue until early winter. The goal is to get the sand down into the greens mix profile through the deep-tine channels. Topdressing also acts to dilute the accumulation of organic matter that naturally occurs over time. Finally, I like to top-dress heavily at this time of year because it provides a blanket of insulation to prevent winter damage.
Spot aeration and seeding. The YGC staff will be aerating collars, approaches, tees and greens expansions. We will also seed these areas to bolster the turfgrass populations in the spring.
Bunkers. We have been replenishing bunker sand around the golf course.
Fall fertilization. Greens, tees, fairways and rough will all receive a final feeding in 2019 to help prepare for a great 2020.
Mowing lines will be adjusted. It is standard practice each fall to reclaim tee space lost during the year. Greens expansions will be massaged and improved. We will also be pushing back on overgrown areas, exposing the rubble and rock for 2020.
Tree management will continue. This past week we experienced an epic wind event with closed roads, power outages. Many golf courses in the area experienced downed trees and expensive cleanup. I am proud to say that our proactive tree management program prevented any such challenges other than small branches, twigs and leaves.
We have completed many other tasks this fall; including cart path repair, soiling/seeding worn areas and pond invasive species management. The ponds have been overrun with invasive Phragmites and we are in year two of a three-year project to reclaim the water courses on the property.
HOW GOOD HAS THE DRAINAGE BEEN?!
Scott M Ramsay, CGCS
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https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2020/09/30/yale-golf-course-reopens-free-golf-students/
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I have recently heard rumblings that Yale was bringing in RTJ II to help restore the course. Anyone else heard that?
I have heard the same and let's hope it's not true. You would hope they would defer to Yale golf coach Colin Sheehan but I would believe anything with that place.
John,
The mention of Seven Oaks always makes me smile. I still remember you telling me in the pro shop that I could beat a 20 year old that had just lost to Danny Green in the semi finals of the USGA Pub Links. That was without a doubt the most fun I have ever had in a golf tournament. As an old friend who has long passed used to tell me when he hit a great shot “shades of the past”......I have to get back there. I haven’t played the course since.
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I have recently heard rumblings that Yale was bringing in RTJ II to help restore the course. Anyone else heard that?
I have heard the same and let's hope it's not true. You would hope they would defer to Yale golf coach Colin Sheehan but I would believe anything with that place.
John,
The mention of Seven Oaks always makes me smile. I still remember you telling me in the pro shop that I could beat a 20 year old that had just lost to Danny Green in the semi finals of the USGA Pub Links. That was without a doubt the most fun I have ever had in a golf tournament. As an old friend who has long passed used to tell me when he hit a great shot “shades of the past”......I have to get back there. I haven’t played the course since.
Rob-
I believe you are referring to the 2001 NYS Amateur @ Seven Oaks. Even though it was over 19 years ago I remember that conversation that we had in the pro shop like it was yesterday. The player you are referring to was Adam Fuchs who back then was a good young college player who, as you mentioned, reached the semi-final round of the USGA Public Links losing to Danny Green. If I recall it was a second round match and you handled him with relative ease, maybe like 4&3 or something? I want to say you got as far as the quarters or semis that year? It was an all - Rochester final with Kevin Haefner beating Dan Ricci in the 36 hole final. Haefner was the pre-tournament favorite and the on-site qualifying medalist (he shot 136 which was 8 under par) and Ricci was a very unlikely finalist but good on him for getting that far.
Even though this started out as a thread about Yale GC it's never a bad time to reflect on great memories. I hope you're well.
-John
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Exactly right. I lost to Dan 1 up in quarters. 19 years ago. Wow.
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"Palacios said Chun is heading up the project, with multiple architects expressing interest."
I'm interested in this quote. Certainly, some of the architects we would love to be engaged by the University don't need the job to make a name, but would certainly take the job. I wonder what architects have expressed interest. Any ideas?
Colin Sheehan has been quietly working with Gil Hanse's team for some time. I don't know the details. The green expansions have been very consistent in house. The bunkers need some work, again. However, it really needs a re-grassing similar to what happened at the Naval Academy GC. Here are some historical views that Colin maintains -
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO2WGAbLvLj9aHI3-yXq2Vm14Vl_8q9azV2KH9qn9jMD1g8_KdMFMGnBnz4tQBrOg?key=cVpmNUhSM0k1NU9CZmNKZzBqYkJiZ2tueE43MmFR (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO2WGAbLvLj9aHI3-yXq2Vm14Vl_8q9azV2KH9qn9jMD1g8_KdMFMGnBnz4tQBrOg?key=cVpmNUhSM0k1NU9CZmNKZzBqYkJiZ2tueE43MmFR)
I don't know new-Peter and Vicky Chun's solution at Colgate's Seven Oaks was to bring in Billy Casper Management. BCM appears to be changing from their website, so I don't know what that means to Colgate Seven Oaks. What did not work at an Upstate RTJ course, a pretty good RTJ course, is definitely not going to work at Yale GC where you have a historic design, with complicated terrain, water issues with CT, and a desire to host significant NCAA events. Through the miracle of marriage to a Colgate alumnus, I have some knowledge of Vicky Chun's work at Colgate, which was great for basically everything other than the golf course. Nothing bad was done to the course, but "lack of appreciation" is a fair assessment.
At many organizations, there is a constant need to "bring in the consultants", and dismiss the internal knowledge that has been gathered for years. Sure, Gil Hanse could help because of his clout that he has with other restorations. However, all reports are that Gil is a smart guy and would want and should get Colin's input, and Scott's input.
I don't know all the politics, but I do know an apology or two, or three would help.
Lux et veritas (light and truth) is Yale's motto. Time to start living it. :D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3erWyN1e69JRuVkjbivlQQKoLHnY3PPtiGqfZFiyHo9S77aRhLu5Dr-C15M5zonWHliy_O6Qq0bLLB5ViK_V-jnnL2NyCztlv1XmUJZ228uzObQOW3aS21VAKyw52R6xhT6BS8Vk18F6GW1_R75L5YJZA=w2732-h1534-no?authuser=0)
Mike-
I believe you are misinformed regarding Vicki Chun's involvement with Seven Oaks while she was Colgate's AD. A few years before she even became the AD the responsibility of the golf course was transferred over from athletics to administration so Vicki never had anything to do with Seven Oaks including bringing in Billy Casper Management. BCM was only brought in to run the pro shop, they have nothing to do with course maintenance or the clubhouse and they certainly have nothing to do with anything architecturally regarding the golf course.
As you may know there are plans in the works to build a new clubhouse and renovate the golf course and they are trying to raise the necessary funds. The architects will be Ron Forse and Jim Nagle. When this all is going to happen is anyone's guess but looking at the current clubhouse I think it needs to happen sooner rather than later.
I hope you are well.
John
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It’s looks like their website has reclaimed the name Yale Golf Course and scrapped The Course at Yale. Thankfully. :)
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Goodness knows I looked the other way over the years, but come on, make a little effort Yale:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EsGfaAzW8AIM5sw?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.sheetmusicdirect.com/images/web/smd_116648_bob_marley_concrete_jungle_web.png)
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Does anyone know the purpose of the work done on the Biarritz hole? Looks like the path is much more diagonal towards the green from the teebox.
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Does anyone know the purpose of the work done on the Biarritz hole? Looks like the path is much more diagonal towards the green from the teebox.
Cal-They released a “Winter Golf Course Update” on January 4th which made reference to the 9th hole dam project being completed in November.
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Painful read
http://theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/2397/what-is-the-reason-for-the-atrocious-conditions-at-the-yale-golf-course (http://theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/2397/what-is-the-reason-for-the-atrocious-conditions-at-the-yale-golf-course)
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A former student of mine played it two days ago and can confirm what AP wrote. And at $125 for the round.
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I am unable to read Anthony's article. Do you think Yale made him take it down? Can anyone copy and paste?
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I am unable to read Anthony's article. Do you think Yale made him take it down? Can anyone copy and paste?
Hmmm.....
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I am unable to read Anthony's article. Do you think Yale made him take it down? Can anyone copy and paste?
I saw this thread this am and the link worked fine then...but now it doesn't.
I also played Yale for the first time yesterday, got 36 holes in....the fairways were firm and fast with not a lot of healthy turf and the greens were very soft and slow and not in great shape at all. That being said, my friends and I (all playing it for the first time) really enjoyed the day. I have no idea whats going on with the conditioning or why its the way it is but I know that Peter Palacios (the GM) is a great guy and that I don't know what resources are being given to the crew there. I'm glad I didn't wait to go see Yale until after the work as I'm sure it will be nice to have a point of reference for after Gil gets done with it.
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I am unable to read Anthony's article. Do you think Yale made him take it down? Can anyone copy and paste?
I have reached out to Tony.
I was quoted for an article in the Yale Daily News about the Yale Golf Course Union Employees being fired during Covid. It was never published. I spoke to my friend this morning who was fired from YGC, and he is very sick with Cancer.
I know why that Yale Daily News article was never published, and I have an email from the Writer on how a friend of his was threatened.
I really love golf, but enough is enough.
Feel free to tell me I am wrong. I am not...
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It’s still available via google:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sHzaRls8f0AJ:theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/2397/what-is-the-reason-for-the-atrocious-conditions-at-the-yale-golf-course (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sHzaRls8f0AJ:theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/2397/what-is-the-reason-for-the-atrocious-conditions-at-the-yale-golf-course&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
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When I Google there are articles mentioning that the golf course worked with a skeleton crew of two employees for four hours a day or so. Could not find anything about the employees being fired.
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Well, isn't this discussion group dedicated to frank discussion or not.
I have never played Yale. In fact my two Raynor's were Chicago Golf while drunk at 19 on a Monday (thought it was a field) and Blue Mound last summer ( which was sublime). The difference is is me essentially. But Chicago golf did budge in their fairways in the 70s and 80s like everyone else.
But they are literally destroying a Raynor. And putting up this 20 millions usga green garbage?
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Well, isn't this discussion group dedicated to frank discussion or not.
I have never played Yale. In fact my two Raynor's were Chicago Golf while drunk at 19 on a Monday (thought it was a field) and Blue Mound last summer ( which was sublime). The difference is is me essentially. But Chicago golf did budge in their fairways in the 70s and 80s like everyone else.
But they are literally destroying a Raynor. And putting up this 20 millions usga green garbage?
I am confused here... this thread is much older. I would imagine they are restoring greens to original size and contour with a little softening? I haven't seen plans but really enjoyed the course when I was there. Once with the fried egg event, and another trip a month or so ago. Not sure where the funding is coming from, private or from the university but I would imagine Hanse isn't likely to destroy it.
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Money is being/has been raised in a special campaign. The University is doing its part. Some further funds would be nice for related projects at the Course.
Some of the money is going to an upgrade to maintenance.
Hanse is obviously not destroying the course. This is a true renovation that hopefully brings the course back to its glory, maintains its position as the top College Golf Course in the US, and positions it for top University and amateur golf events.