Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: wsmorrison on December 16, 2006, 04:04:52 PM
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In a discussion with a GCAer in town for a visit, we got to discussing sets of par 3s and were trying to come up with a list of courses with the best set. To nobody's surprise, I firmly believe that Flynn's sets of par 3s are hard to beat. Among his best are:
Rolling Green (may just be the best)
Shinnecock Hills GC
Lehigh CC
Philadelphia Country Club
Manufacturers GCC
Lancaster CC
Pocantico Hills
As for modern golf courses, we came up with
Sand Hills
Colorado GC
Ballyneal
Friar's Head
So please, which course do you nominate for the outstanding collection of par 3s?
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Very few if any can beat Winged Foot's par 3's. I think the east course has a better set then the West.
For a modern course Whistling Straits is pretty darn good.
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Tough to beat the par 3 offerings at Banff. The ones at Pacific Dunes are mighty fine as well.
Ditto for Bandon Trails, though I'm not a big fan of #12, so that course doesn't make my final list.
Odd that my two favorite have 5 each.
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Wayne,
I know you'll probably disagree in some form, but when done right the Raynor/Banks/Macd template Par 3s are quite good.
I can't think of a better set of Par 3s than those at NGLA in that regard.
My vote goes to Mannies, though. Rolling Green is up there too.
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CPC, shouldn't be slighted because it's first one shotter is a bit on the momentum building side. The last three make up for the slighting by continuing that momentum magnificiantly.
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Point O'Woods
Harbour Town
Wolf Run
The Golf Club
Long Cove
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I agree with Adam Clayman's choice of Cypress Point's short holes as being outstanding and it's hard to go wrong with Flynn's par three holes as a rule.
Among the newer courses, the short holes at Colorado Golf Club are awesome. There is nice variety among them in distance, type of shot, and topography. The large mound fronting the monster (260 yd) sixth hole is unique and makes shot selection interesting, the play is to land is way short and sling shot it in off the mound.
Among the really new courses, the short holes at Fallen Oak in Biloxi are awesome.
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Andy,
I played Harbour Town for the first time in about 10 years last weekend, and agree: the par 3s there are good and excellently varied in terms of distance, direction (though I believe #7 and #17 point the same way) and look. #17 has to be one of the great par 3s of the world?
Stanley Thompson was very good at designing extremely varied and interesting par 3s. The short holes at Jasper are particularly outstanding. Cleopatra (9th) and Bad Baby (15th) are arguably two of the most interesting holes in the world.
As for more recent efforts... Sand Hills pops to mind immediately. I'm a huge fan of #6, #13 and #17. Then there's #3, which ain't to shabby either!
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Andy & Jeff--
I heard from several people that I really respect about the quality of Harbour Town's short holes. I'm not sure if it was the day that I caught it, but three of the four short holes were a five iron and the 14th was a 6. To me a great set of short holes need to be varied in distance and the ones at HT aren't IMHO. I agree with Jeff that 17th is a great hole and the other short holes are really good on their own, but they just aren't the best as a set.
From the variety standpoint, Rolling Green is about as good as they come: 160, 200, 245 (until Wayne's 260 gets put in), 210 uphill, and 145.
Colorado Golf's are 155 uphill , 260, 210 slightly down, and 195 downhill.
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Adam,
Interesting observation re the distances Harbour Town's short holes played when you were last there. The same occurred last weekend, during our round.
However, I think that might be the result of placing tee markers. Not Mr. Dye's original intent for those holes. I've run into this elsewhere, too. Where a clearly varied set of par 3 holes played similar distances.
This emphasises a point I always make. Green-keepers must understand the architecture of the courses they're looking after, in order to avoid such an occurrence.
I say that just before referencing the World Atlas of Golf - which happens to be lying next to me. Harbour Town's short holes measure(d), in order: 200, 195, 192, 185. Hmmm?
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Rye? Yarra Yarra?
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I think of courses I've played, my favorite set of par 3's is at Oakland Hills - South. A nice variety of lengths and elevation changes, and each has a very difficult, well-bunkered green. A great looking and challenging set of holes without any gimmicky feel to them.
Mike
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Dale Hollow Lake State Park GC in KY has a sensational set of par-3's.
#3 is a deep drop from 269, 262, 229, 216, 180. It gets your juices flowing. #5 is a slightly uphill 215, 209, 153, 132, 121 with a tough green and death behind. #11 is a level, multi-acre sand desert from 213, 195, 150, 138. And #15 is a stunningly beautiful pitch across a huge chasm and over an elegant wall to a wide green with a dead drop behind also. Better choose the right club here from 215 [scary from here!], 208, 170; or you can cheat be going from the side 144 or 132 [but how could you on THIS lovely hole?].
All four are very challenging but very different. #15 is like a perfect spice for the devouring of this delicious course; one of the best unknowns in the USA. Golf as it Ault to be 8)
Doug
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I think Riviera par 3s are as good as both Ballyneal and Sand Hills.
I think Yale has a better set than either Winged Foot (West) and Friar's Head.
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Wayne,
Please explain your choice of Friar's Head.
I've never been crazy about the 4th (it's the C&C hole I like the least so far) and the 8th is a nice hole but not spectacular. I really like the remaining 3, although the 12th is excellent architecture in an average setting.
As much as I liked Friar's Head, I always think of other areas beyond the par threes first.
I look forward to your commentary, I feel like I have missed something along the way.
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Carmargo is thought to have the best set of inland par 3's in america. I can hardly disagree.
Lawrence
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I'll try pick some less obvious ones to suggest.
Jasper Park is an excellent Canadian collection.
County Louth has three excellent holes
I'll need to think about this...
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MarkB,
You think Rye? Let's take them vs Littlestone's.
Rye #2 v. LGC #6 - LGC 1 up; a drop shot to a small target vs one of the best short par 3s in the UK. During the last Open qualifying it was the most difficult hole on the course
Rye #5 v. LGC #9 - draw, LGC still 1 up; LGC 9 looks more difficult than it actually is; Rye 5 is another drop shot to a somewhat larger target. However, there are many ways of playing the LGC hole; Rye is more one-dimensional. I'm generous here because I know what's coming.
Rye #8 v. LGC #14 - Rye wins here, all square. LGC needs to restore the back right bunker.
Rye #14 AND Rye #17 v. LGC #17 - LGC wins here and the match, one up. LGC #17 is all-world, one of MacKenzie's finest creations.
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Kyle,
On a recent trip to Manufacturer's I was very impressed with the par threes. Did they recover some fairway on the right side of #6 (the second par three)? It looked like new fairway to me. If so, that really makes the shot fun.
I wouldn't want to get into a contest between there and Rolling Green for par threes, because while there are five at each RG has two short ones and Mannies has three long ones.So, the mix is different.
But, they are the strongest points of both courses.
I think there is something about having five par threes that makes them stand out when you play the course.
Glen Mills' set is among my favorites. The #4 is downhill and 170ish with a huge bunker that blinds the approach EXCEPT for ten yards or so on the right. This lets you "fill in the blanks" yourself. #8 is 200+ and uphill with four tiers to the green and a steep slope on the left that kicks balls onto the green. #10 has one of my favorite greens anywhere. It is 200+ downhill to a trapizoidal green with a ridge that runs from front to back.#14 is a 150ish with a wonderful pot bunker on the right and a two tiered green that slopes right to left around a dropoff to a marsh area. It has a bunker in the back that adds to its "redanish" feel(I hesitate to use that word).Finally, #16 is 140ish and is angled from front left to back right over a pond.There is a water hazard long left and a bunker (maybe two) in the back.
The variety of length, elevation , green shape and angles, and hazards by the green makes for a great set of greens that anyone can enjoy , since it is public and reasonably priced.The spacing throughout the routing is also enjoyable.
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I put in a homer vote and say that for a classic Engineers is pretty darn Strong!
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Royal Dornoch's 3 pars are pretty strong.
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I can't see how Pine Valley is not at the top of this list, both in quality and variety.
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Brookside, Ohio Ross
Franklin Hills, Michigan Ross
Orchards, MA Ross
Pasatiempo- Mackenzie
Toronto- Colt
(Parker)Colorado Golf Club C&C
MPCC Shore Strantz
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Wayne,
You should probably label this thread - What golf course "that you have seen" has the best set of par 3s? There are soooo many great sets of par threes out there. Pine Valley was finally mentioned Michael. Few compare to those that I have seen. But how about Riviera or Prairie Dunes for example. I could go on and on.
For someone who doesn't like the Top 100 rankings or rankings in general, having people list the courses with the best sets of par threes is even more of a stretch isn't it ;)
Mark
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No, Mark. It is not. Why should it be? You are considering 3-5 holes rather than 18. It should be a lot easier. I don't understand your contention at all. I did not intend on asking for an objective decision, there can be none, I'm clearly asking for favorites or personal bests, so I will change the title of the thread.
I agree that Pine Valley is superb, 3,5 and 10 are among golf's best but 14 is not on par with the other three and is even worse with the new back tee. Let us not forget Merion East. Holes 3, 9, 13 and 17 are all excellent holes from 130 yards to 250 with outstanding variety. The 3rd is one of the best par 3s on the planet despite its mistaken reference as a Redan ;)
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Mayday,
Yes, the bunker has also been moved.
Before:
(http://static.flickr.com/49/107283260_633d9d36f3_b.jpg)
After:
(http://static.flickr.com/52/107283258_5b1c42c77b_b.jpg)
As I mentioned to you last week, this is all part of a Ron Forse/Jim Nagle master plan.
I'd give Rolling Green's long Par 3s the nod of those of Mannies, but Mannies may take the cake for the 8th alone.
(http://static.flickr.com/10/16975393_87268aac05_b.jpg)
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When spruced up, the four at Seminole are probably the most difficult to hit in regulation that I have seen. They are also pretty good...not my favorite...Shinnecock gets that nod.
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Kyle,
You have much to learn. While Flynn was very attentive to par 3s and may have been as good as any designing great sets of them, Rolling Green gets the overall nod in my book among Philadelphia Flynn courses and just may the equal of Shinnecock Hills.
As you suggest, Rolling Green is much better than Manufacturers in the long par 3s. 10 and 14 at Rolling Green are superb and nothing comes close to them at Mannies. The deception on 3 and the setting on 16 are at least the equal of the short holes at Mannies, even though 8 is a very fine hole. 6 at Rolling Green is very good and may be the only par 3 at RGGC that is not the equal of any at Mannies, but not by much.
Consider the par 3s at Shinnecock. Wow! I guess I have to give the edge among Flynn courses to my favorite course in the world. 2, 7, 11 and 17. Forget the template holes of Macdonald and Raynor. These natural sites (OK, Flynn raised the 7th and it is not natural--but it is great) blow away most every par 3 that I have personally experienced. 11 is the greatest use of a natural ridge site for a par 3 hole I have ever seen. Wait till the tee is lowered to its original height and the forward tee moved back to the left. It'll be even better with the sklyine effect that will be returned.
As regards Shinnecock Hills, right on, Sully! Indian Creek are hard to hit as well. Something about those perched greens on Florida courses and the wind.
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Based on very limited experience, I'd vote for LA North. Five par 3's, with a great variety, and two tough cookies at 7 and 11.
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I'm impressed that Mayday mentioned Glen Mills already and I second his vote for the course's set of par 3's. It is certainly well known in the Philadelphia area but I think it should be better known nationally. The green on #7 is unbelieveable and was the culprit responsible for blowing up my round during a US Am Publinks qualifier there many years ago...
Others that should be mentioned:
Myopia Hunt Club
#3 & #9 is the best long/short combo I have played
Sleepy Hollow
#3 is an underrated IMHO. 7, 10 & 16 are all stunning holes.
Merion East
Harbour Town
Riviera
Honorable mention:
Mauna Kea
#4 from the tips is the single hardest shot I have ever played and one of the most beautiful.
Kapalua Plantation
With the wind up, you could hit any club in your bag on each of the par 3's but you must shape your shots.
p.s. - Speaking of Glen Mills, what has Bobby Weed done lately?
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Kyle,
You have much to learn. While Flynn was very attentive to par 3s and may have been as good as any designing great sets of them, Rolling Green gets the overall nod in my book among Philadelphia Flynn courses and just may the equal of Shinnecock Hills.
As you suggest, Rolling Green is much better than Manufacturers in the long par 3s. 10 and 14 at Rolling Green are superb and nothing comes close to them at Mannies. The deception on 3 and the setting on 16 are at least the equal of the short holes at Mannies, even though 8 is a very fine hole. 6 at Rolling Green is very good and may be the only par 3 at RGGC that is not the equal of any at Mannies, but not by much.
Consider the par 3s at Shinnecock. Wow! I guess I have to give the edge among Flynn courses to my favorite course in the world. 2, 7, 11 and 17. Forget the template holes of Macdonald and Raynor. These natural sites (OK, Flynn raised the 7th and it is not natural--but it is great) blow away most every par 3 that I have personally experienced. 11 is the greatest use of a natural ridge site for a par 3 hole I have ever seen. Wait till the tee is lowered to its original height and the forward tee moved back to the left. It'll be even better with the sklyine effect that will be returned.
As regards Shinnecock Hills, right on, Sully! Indian Creek are hard to hit as well. Something about those perched greens on Florida courses and the wind.
Wayne,
I am inclined to agree with your assessment. 6 and 11 are Mannies are just too much the same hole, and I don't believe 13 to be of the same caliber as the 10th or 14th hole at Rolling Green.
You'll have to pardon my hyberbole regarding the 8th at Mannies. ;)
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I would probably go for Swinley Forest's. Burnham & Berrow's are very good as well. Though rarely mentioned, Addington has a fine set of one shotters.
Ciao
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You are forgiven for your hyperbole, Kyle. Youthful indiscretion. Enjoy it while you can ;)
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Sean,
Wow, you sure are right about both Swinley Forest and the Addington. They rival some of the best sets of par 3s anywhere. I was blown away by both courses in general and by the par 3s in particular.
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As you suggest, Rolling Green is much better than Manufacturers in the long par 3s. 10 and 14 at Rolling Green are superb and nothing comes close to them at Mannies. The deception on 3 and the setting on 16 are at least the equal of the short holes at Mannies, even though 8 is a very fine hole. 6 at Rolling Green is very good and may be the only par 3 at RGGC that is not the equal of any at Mannies, but not by much.
Wayne, I can't comment on Mannies, but your order on Rolling Green is, as a one-timer, spot on. 10 and 14 are unique, world-class and memorable, 3 and 16 are very good (I would have liked to see 16 with the old green and the trees removed) and 6 is the least best, but is a good hole. And 5 par 3'a - what a pleasant change.
Any highly rated course will have a great set of par-3's. That goes without saying (CPC, Merion East, Pine Valley and Royal Dornoch have all been mentioned). Is there a Doak 9 or 10 in the world that doesn't have a top set of par 3's?
James B
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My favorite par threes are at my club in SC: Musgrove Mill.
Number two is 135 yards downhill to a smallish green with a creek in front, back and left with waste area on the right.
Number seven is 200 yards across a bend in the river to a large two tier green. There is a bailout area left and short. but it is some four or five feet below the putting surface. Anything right is wet. No bunkers.
Number twelve is 160 yards across a ravine. The green is narow but deep with many different pin options. It is severly sloped with bunkers right and back left. Hit it to the wrong part of the green and two putts are tough.
Number seventeen is 190 yards up a hill to another two tiered green. There is a waste area that snakes its way up to the green with a small pot bunker on the right. Left is a bail out area on the same level as the green but makes for a difficult up and down because of the way the green slopes.
If Darryl Boe sees this maybe he cn post pictures.
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Andy & Jeff--
I heard from several people that I really respect about the quality of Harbour Town's short holes. I'm not sure if it was the day that I caught it, but three of the four short holes were a five iron and the 14th was a 6. To me a great set of short holes need to be varied in distance and the ones at HT aren't IMHO. I agree with Jeff that 17th is a great hole and the other short holes are really good on their own, but they just aren't the best as a set.
From the variety standpoint, Rolling Green is about as good as they come: 160, 200, 245 (until Wayne's 260 gets put in), 210 uphill, and 145.
Colorado Golf's are 155 uphill , 260, 210 slightly down, and 195 downhill.
Adam,
For whatever reason the day I played I don't remember this being the case, although I can see a slightly different set-up making it so. It seemed that #4 was a 4 or 5-iron, #7 and #14 were around 6 or 7, and then I think the tee was up on #17 so it didn't play as long as it could and it was an 8. That doesn't provide a lot of variety, but either way I do think they are all good holes in their own right. In a perfect world you'd have them all different lengths requiring different clubs and going in different directions I suppose, but the quality of the holes there still make them worth mentioning. If I had to rank the list of the five I listed I doubt HT would be #1.
For what its worth the 4 at the Point are similar in distances as well. #11 can be played a little longer than the other three, with #4 being a little shorter. #9 to me is the class of the group.
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I agree with Doak's assessment in The Confidential Guide's "Gazatteer" - Teeth of the Dog. #5 - 160 downwind to thimble green in middle of sea; #7 - 225 downwind to green surrounded by sand with sea in front and left; #13 - 175 crosswind to island (in sand) green; #16 - 185 over sea, into wind, with 60 yard wide green stuck on precipice.
Three incredible ocean holes (unlike #17 at PB) and a neat "doughnut hole." Can't beat it.
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" Re:What golf course has the best set of par 3s?"
The best set of par 3s I've ever seen is Pine Valley's.
One of the reasons I'd give it an extra nod in this day and age is it is one that still has a short one that may be one of the best short par 3s in the world.
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Similar to Sean, I think Burnham and Berrow have a great set of par threes, but I also like those at Royal Porthcawl too.
Good variety of length, great greens and greensites.
West Sussex also has a pretty nice set, especially the first two, five and six.
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Andy & Jeff--
Thanks for the responses...it could be the way it was set up the day that I played.
Kyle H--
You really think that 6 & 11 at Manny's are too similar? They're similar that they are both reasonably uphill and are both rare examples of excellent uphill par three holes, but 11 is such a unique hole in how it presents itself with that steep uphill rise not far off the tee and then gradually rising the rest of the way. The green complexes on 6 and 11 may be similar, but those two holes still look and present themselves much differently.
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Wayne,
Better title ;D You know I am not into those "best" lists ;)
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I'd like to make a general comment. I think a great set of par 3s should make the player hit a variety of clubs. Riviera was great in that respect.
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The two par 3's on the back nine at ANGC are outstanding. I don't know about the ones on the front.
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Royal Melbourne (West) is for mine the stand-out in Australia followed by:
Kingston Heath
Barnbougle Dunes
NSW
In GB&I:
Cruden Bay has a good set as does Burnham & Berrow and Sunningdale (Old) but my favourites were perhaps Woodhall Spa (Hotchkin)
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Andy & Jeff--
Thanks for the responses...it could be the way it was set up the day that I played.
Kyle H--
You really think that 6 & 11 at Manny's are too similar? They're similar that they are both reasonably uphill and are both rare examples of excellent uphill par three holes, but 11 is such a unique hole in how it presents itself with that steep uphill rise not far off the tee and then gradually rising the rest of the way. The green complexes on 6 and 11 may be similar, but those two holes still look and present themselves much differently.
Adam,
Another difference is with the right hand kicker mound on 6, but it is a rare day when both holes aren't playing the same length. That sort of lack of variance in effective playing length is rare in my experience with Flynn courses.
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Cypress Point, Shinnicock, Villa d'Este, Oak Bay
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Bandon Dunes's par 3's are the best on the resort.
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Obviously I am biased but you would be hard pressed to do better than the collective attributes of the par 3' on The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol.
#6 - 190 yards; ocean left and behind; run up option and small bail out right from where recovery is possible but difficult
Alignment - SSW; Prevailing Wind - quartering against from the right / direct cross
#7 - 162 yards; green perched on dune 25 feet above the beach to the left, bail out is green high right
Alignment - NW; Prevailing wind almost dead against
#13 - 213 yards; downhill across arroyo/stream to shallow green running away from player from right to left
Alignment - SW; Prevailing Wind - quartering against from right
#17 - 178 yards; play across surf to green atop granite shelf; ocean short and right and long(visually).
Alignment - NE; Prevailing Wind - helping wind quartering from the left
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My favorite for years has been the Golden Horseshoe Gold Course in Williamsburg - beautiful setting and the holes require good solid irons with a premium on distance control. For its era, it is the best I've seen.
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Old School: Cypress Point and Los Angeles CC
New School: Thanksgiving Point (Lehi, UT - #17 is amazing), Shadow Creek (#13 is my favoirte), and MC at Aldarra.
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Teeth of the Dog's par 3's are stellar. Whistling Straits as well. I've never been fortunate enough yet to tee it up at Cypress Point, but I would still vote for the set of 3's there also.
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HARBOUR TOWN
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Shoreacres has 3 world class 3 pars.
Whistling Straits has 4 really good ones.
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1) Pine Valley...not a better set for variety and style
2) Royal Melbourne West...clearly a spectrum of shot values
3) Somerset Hills...Tillies finest mix with simply great examples
4) CPC....having two of the world's top 5 count for alot.
5) Sand Hills...where else does the wind change everything
everyday?
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Bandon Dunes's par 3's are the best on the resort.
I don't agree
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camargo.
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From courses I've played:
Royal Dornoch
North Berwick
Cruden Bay
Hoylake
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Another mention for Burnham & Berrow. I also think the par 3s at Muirfield are very strong.
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I haven't played a course that comes close to Shinnecock with regards to the par 3s. . . .what an amazing golf course :D
-Ted
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There must be 50 different courses listed here. I'm sure everyone feels strongly about each choice but this is a great example for all of us as to why "ranking" of courses is sooo subjective (and also why we shouldn't abuse the guys who participate in the rankings). It has most to do with personal preference and how many different courses that individual has seen. We all tend to gravitate to what we know and have experienced. This thread all but proves that point.
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"I'm sure everyone feels strongly about each choice but this is a great example for all of us as to why "ranking" of courses is sooo subjective (and also why we shouldn't abuse the guys who participate in the rankings). It has most to do with personal preference and how many different courses that individual has seen. We all tend to gravitate to what we know and have experienced. This thread all but proves that point."
Mark,
Actually, it proves the contrary, namely that this is why rankings as a subjective process biased by individual experience and preference is flawed and of little value. As an interested party, it is not surprising that you would find the flaws supportive of the process and the participants, however an objective perspective leads to a different conclusion.
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...or this proves that par 3 holes aren't what differentiate good from great courses. Because they are designed for one shot, par 3s are the simplest and least interesting holes architecturally.
I mentioned Yale and Riviera initially as possessing great short holes, but that's me talking with my head, not my heart. I'd rather play the par 3s on my favorite courses (Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, etc.) any day.
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I think I agree with you that par 3 holes do not, by themselves, differentiate good from great courses. However, while I think some architects do/did not rout the courses with them foremost in mind and did not emphasize the design par 3s as being important and highly interesting, they are usually more memorable than most holes to average and interested players. Some architects did not dismiss their importance and some were critical to the greatness of the course. In my experience, I think Rolling Green, Cypress Point, Shinnecock Hills, Philadelphia Country, Somerset Hills, NGLA (2 out of 3 great par 3s), Maidstone and others are examples of this.
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Lawsonia has a very good set of par 3s -- maybe not as dramatically/visually spectacular as Whistling Straits, but varied and full of challenge, for the most part. The five holes go to four different points of the compass, a good indication of Langford's thoughtful approach to short holes.
#4: 203/175 -- a tough redan-esque hole (tho the green lacks the requisite tilt), uphill and often into the wind, surrounded by bunkers.
#7: 161/146 -- a very good short, to a volcano-like green site, supposedly with a train boxcar buried there; a true do-or-die hole.
#10: 239/217 -- a wood for most players, slightly uphill, with deceptive bunkering and visuals.
#12: 183/171 -- over flat terrain, the green makes this hole. A very wide but not very deep green with a huge slope slicing it in half.
#14: 154/139 -- the easiest of the set, downhill (tho not a drop shot); long is dead.
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Wayne,
Aren't almost all rankings based on as you say "individual experience and preference". But that doesn't mean they are of little value as you suggest. Please explain "an objective perspective" which would lead to a different conclusion? I'm not sure there is such a thing as we all have our biases and golf architecture is not something that is black and white.
I've always said, forget whether a course is #30 or #98 on the Golf Digest or Golf Magazine or Golfweek Top 100 lists. If it is on the list, it is probably worth seeing and you will learn something from it. That is value enough for most golfers.
The best courses eventually migrate to the top sooner or later. There is a reason that all the major lists have probably an 80% or more overlap. The other 20% makes for interesting discussion.
John,
You make a good point as well.
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Of the courses I have played I would have to put Harbour Town at the top.
I also like the lineup of par 3 holes at the Golden Horseshoe Gold course . If my memory serves me correctly, they all play along, across, or in the large bowl depression in the middle of the property, but each hole is very different from the other. It also has, in my opinion, the most tasteful island hole in golf.
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I heard from several people that I really respect about the quality of Harbour Town's short holes. I'm not sure if it was the day that I caught it, but three of the four short holes were a five iron and the 14th was a 6. To me a great set of short holes need to be varied in distance and the ones at HT aren't IMHO.
Adam,
I'd have to agree with your statement wholeheartedly. It happens all to often that I get to the final par 3 on a course and I'm picking the same club or another in the same subset (mid-iron for example) out of my bag and all I can do is YAWN! :( I would go further and say that not only variety in clubbing, but in trouble and nature of the challenge is also needed to hold my attention. No course does this for me like Cobblestone GC (ackworth, GA) (GD 100 Best You Can Play). Varied and challenging that's the ticket.
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I think a bland, repetitive set of one-shotters can leave a stronger negative impression than bland two or three-shotters...that is, in the context of your standard good solid golf course.
In other words, give me a good course, by whatever standard you prefer, and break it down into three classes (one, two and three shots) and weak par 3's will stand out to me more than the other two classes.
Does that mean great par 3's stand out above and beyond great par 4's and 5's? I don't know. When I think of Pine Valley I don't necessarily think of the par 3's first. While the 3's are very good and diverse, I think of the 5's and the variety of the 4's. For Shinnecock, I think of the 3's first and foremost. I think they are as good as it could be.
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I think a bland, repetitive set of one-shotters can leave a stronger negative impression than bland two or three-shotters...that is, in the context of your standard good solid golf course.
In other words, give me a good course, by whatever standard you prefer, and break it down into three classes (one, two and three shots) and weak par 3's will stand out to me more than the other two classes.
Does that mean great par 3's stand out above and beyond great par 4's and 5's? I don't know. When I think of Pine Valley I don't necessarily think of the par 3's first. While the 3's are very good and diverse, I think of the 5's and the variety of the 4's. For Shinnecock, I think of the 3's first and foremost. I think they are as good as it could be.
Complete agreement. Camargo is a good example of this. I like the par 3's there a lot, but strangely, I find The Eden being the 'worst' of the bunch.
The Honors Course has a solid and diverse set of par 3's.
Huntington CC. The par 3's here are fantastic.
Miami Valley Golf Club (Ross) has some good par 3's.
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The notion that...
quoted from John Kirk:
...or this proves that par 3 holes aren't what differentiate good from great courses. Because they are designed for one shot, par 3s are the simplest and least interesting holes architecturally.
...rings false with me.
I think a well done set of par 3's are all too rare and are an opportunity to elevate a course to another level of quality.
What would be the keys? Variety in length, setting, green complexities, challenge level etc...
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The par 3's are the first thing that I think of at Crooked Stick. I think they are the best 4 that I have seen on one golf course, potentially. NCR has a really good set as well. #2 at this course is one of the best 175-185 yard holes in the world, in my opinion. I am not sure that another shot in golf has ever made me so nervous about making double. If you miss the green and catch the wrong lie, it just becomes harder and harder to hit the green. Nicklaus called 15 one of the best in the world. 13 is rock solid and 8 is not bad at all, but it is by far the ugly duckling. The other 3 are really, really good.
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Are there any real good to great courses that do not have a solid (if not great) set of 3's?
It seems there is a thread going on right now listing great courses with less than great 5's...due to the numbers (usually at least 10) it would be pretty impossible to have medicre 4's on a great course.
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The Australian courses I played had the best par threes I have ever experienced by a fairly wide margin:
Royal Melbourne West
Kingston Heath
Best I've seen in the US - Sand Hills
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Crail, Bandon Trails, TOC, Cypress Pointe, Pebble Beach, NGLA
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The notion that...
quoted from John Kirk:
...or this proves that par 3 holes aren't what differentiate good from great courses. Because they are designed for one shot, par 3s are the simplest and least interesting holes architecturally.
...rings false with me.
I think a well done set of par 3's are all too rare and are an opportunity to elevate a course to another level of quality.
What would be the keys? Variety in length, setting, green complexities, challenge level etc...
JES,
I see your point. But isn't it true that a well done set of par 4s, or par 5s, offer the same opportunity to "elevate a course to another level of quality"?
I think you are suggesting that a great set of par 3s is harder to find. Why would that be? Either the standard for greatness in a par 3 is set higher, or par 3 holes are less interesting and therefore more difficult to make great.
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Has anyone mentioned Sutton Bay's?
Five excellent golf holes.