Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Robert Mercer Deruntz on November 24, 2006, 03:18:39 AM
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On Tuesday, I played with a great player whom I occassionally coach. We played Desert Forrest. The course was playing as long as he'd seen it in recent years because of the overseeding. The greens were fairly firm and running at 11+ . Those who have played there will know what those greens are capable of at such speeds, especially when the pins were set for an afternoon tournament. My friend has played a great number of great courses in competition and loves Desert Forrest. Throughout the round he was mentioning how the fear of different tee shots had diminished because of technology. Holes #5, #13, #16, #18 used to be evil among the rest of the hard to hit fairways. In addition, the risk/reward tee option on #7 no longer exists--the right side is an easy carry. As for Todd's round, He had 8 birdies with 4 lip-outs, one triple--bad drive and protection of body for next week's big tournament, and no bogies. The layout is incredibly great, but what is wrong with a longer hitter being challenged the same way as other golfers? Incidentally, this course can easily be stretched to 7500 yds without the tees appearing way out of place.
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Robert
My fear with too much lengthening is only the long hitter is challenged, golf is a game of players of all abilities and qualities, all of which should be tested. For the 1% of players for whom par 4s should be upto 525yds and par 3s 280+ that's great but we have to remember the game has to be enjoyed by all and it's the average guy whose money keeps the revenue rolling in.
In 1926 Bobby Jones played Sunningdale Old in 66 strokes at the time it was heralded as the finest round ever. The course is around 6600yds and on 10 holes he used a wood or 2 iron for his second shot.
Now many holes at Sunningdale Old are relatively simple for the pros but IMO SO is still a good course and a great day out.
Shorten the ball, do not lengthen further to test the 1%.
Mark
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I agree that adding length only challenges the long hitter.
If I play from overly long tees, it is all about hit wedges into greens. I might as well be playing a course with all par 5's.
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Robert
My fear with too much lengthening is only the long hitter is challenged, golf is a game of players of all abilities and qualities, all of which should be tested. For the 1% of players for whom par 4s should be upto 525yds and par 3s 280+ that's great but we have to remember the game has to be enjoyed by all and it's the average guy whose money keeps the revenue rolling in.
In 1926 Bobby Jones played Sunningdale Old in 66 strokes at the time it was heralded as the finest round ever. The course is around 6600yds and on 10 holes he used a wood or 2 iron for his second shot.
Now many holes at Sunningdale Old are relatively simple for the pros but IMO SO is still a good course and a great day out.
Shorten the ball, do not lengthen further to test the 1%.
Mark
I agree 100%.
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RMD-
I believe DF is a special case. With only the one fairway bunker (Sonoran Desert) it interfaces each and every player on each and every shot.
Also, Have you seen the average age of the members there? Dr. Klein won't catch up until 2025. ;D
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I'm sorry, I don't understand. Would extending the course to compensate for the distance the better players hit the ball necessitate the elimination of tees for the rest of us?
Nobody is forced to go to the back tees. Enjoy the course by playing the tees that are most suitable for you.
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Jim Sweeney hit the point. What is wrong with quite a few tees. So architects may have aesthetic issues, but it is a golf course that they are creating. It is true that the average age at DF is not in the early mid-am category. That still has nothing to do with the fact that DF has the room without being ridiculous to add a good 500 yards. As for the lengthening taking place, that is for the membership to decide. No matter what, the course is absolutely great!
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Sometimes it does not take a lot.
Dornoch is in the process of adding 20-30 yards to the tees at 7 and 9 (actually expanding the back tee on 9 to allow more regular play from there). In both cases, this moves "turbo-boost" landing areas which have come into play in the last 5 years out of the reach of all but the longest and most accurate players, and makes the holes play the way they were designed. As an added benefit, the new back tee on 7 gives a spectacular view of almost the entire course.
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That depends on the how and why of the added length. One of the great par-4s of the world, #15 on Bethpage Black, had a new tee added in for the 2009 Open that wasn't used because it made the hole TOO long!
Plans are not to use it in 2009 for the very same reason. And before someone suggests, no, they didn't put stands on it.
So, there is a tee that lengthens one of the great par-4s in all of golf and it has NEVER been used, not a single time, in either daily or tournament play.
How then did adding lenth there enhance the course?
Added length must always be usable, if only on rare occasions for it to enhance.
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Adding length just seems to help the longer hitters, who share the cost of the additional maintenance expense with the majority who never ever look back to the "Tiger" tees, unless they are just pointing them out to their guests(enhancing pride?). I think the exception is if you are trying to attract an event where the club can make some money; my wife and I were playing with two members at Hoylake and they kept showing us all the new tees "needed only to get the Open". They were low handicappers and very set in where they wanted to play from, before and after the Championship.
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It seems to me that a player good enough to have a "coach", and hitting it as long as was implied, has "outgrown" this course and needs to find a new place to play...
Why should the course make major, and expensive, changes to accomadate his game?
Is he the exception at this course or the rule?
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Rich,
When I was last at Dornoch in 2003 playing with Tom Tew he said there was some talk of adding some bunkers. Has any of that happened?
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Ralph
No new bunkers. There was a vote on adding a new one to the end of the string on the right hand side of the fairway on the 3rd, but it was turned down. I was in favor of it, as big and even not so big hitters can now hit it past the bunkers and have an easy sand wedge to the green if the hole is playing downwind.
Rich
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IMO Length can help if it can be added in an equally proportionate manner....I dont see how that can happen in 99% of the cases so the ball is the only answer....plus it would be much simpler....
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There are courses where length can be added in a proportionate manner. And that is very much the case at DF. In addition, they could add new tees without moving much dirt--i.e. they could build them in-house. This is a course where you gradually appreciate the greatness. As for the comparison to #15 at Bethpage--they have a bonehead architect involved--a better example is #9's new tee; when the fairway could have been moved to the right and a better effect would have been achieved. The point of this thread is that some great courses are easily overpowered and that new tees can negate this problem.
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Robert:
Personally, I don't have any problem adding length to golf courses provided it's done correctly and that includes recognizing that on some holes it can't be done, on some it shouldn't be done because it might "disconnect" the intended strategies and on some holes it can just screw up a hole the added length needs to invade.
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TEPaul, what you just stated is the true heart of this thread. There are holes that seem to get lengthened simply to add length and result in no real change. The idea is maintain the original design strategy.
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They were low handicappers and very set in where they wanted to play from, before and after the Championship.
Perhaps they were happy because they are used to maintaining their low handicaps instead of trotting back a few paces and being tested.....not only from having more yardage, but also from being in different spots than usual.
5 different sets of tee boxes may not be the most aesthetically pleasing, but they sure do help give you a different challege every time you tee one up. Play from the back tees.....hit a lot more fairways than usual, because you're short of the choke points, but hit longer clubs in. Play the front tees....a lot more short irons in, but you're probably in the hash all day or through doglegs.
One of the worst decisions in golf (IMO...which counts for nothing) is the idea of "handicap based teeboxes". You should be able to play from any box you want, as long as you can do it in 3:45.
CPS