Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mark_Fine on November 18, 2006, 03:24:49 PM
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Other than guys like us who frequent sites like this, most golfers will never pick up a book on golf architecture (just ask the book publishers if you don't believe me). Would a collection of simple to follow basic overviews about architects be helpful to those who have an interest in the subject, but who would never intend to purchase (let alone sit down and read) a 400 page life story book on Emmett or Travis or, … ?
I am by no means suggesting the detail books don't have merit. I am just thinking about ways to promote golf architecture to more people and not bore them to death with minutia.
Any merit in the concept?
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Mark,
I think its a good idea, and the new Golf Magazine has a version of that.
My ongoing question and answer series on Cybergolf is supposed to be the same kind of thing about gca ideas rather than the people themselves. One question, one answer. Easy to find and cross reference questions.
Who knows, someday, maybe I'll put it out in book form.
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The old addage that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing," comes to mind.
But more than this, I would suggest that the books to which you are referring are the "ClifffsNotes," and it is the courses themselves that are the first-hand source, the text books, if you will. And, moreover, such an overview of a subject that is granted by publications like "Cliffnotes," were never meant to supplant the first hand sources, but are instead meant to supplement a full educational experience (which includes visiting and studying the tangible golf course, or as goes this analogy, actually reading the book!).
Oddly, though, I don't think it's a bad idea overall, just that it might provide people with yet another reason to judge courses and designers based on what they read, and not what they have seen and decided for themselves.
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Jeff and Steve,
I guess one question to ask is - "Is some understanding better than none"? Maybe the hope is that a series like this would get more people interested in going out and studying more golf courses (some don't see the value in that) and/or reading the more detailed books that are available on the topic.
Back to the M vs. OS game!
Mark
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Mark,
I think I wrote on Cybergolf (or should have!) that my goal in that series was to make it seem just hard enough that no one at home would try it without the benefit of a qualified gca! ;)
That said, as anyone who reads my crap here (as opposed to the crap I write for Cybergolf :D) knows I am a plain talker. So many gca's use thousands of words but don't really end up saying anything about what they are thinking!
My father always said if it can't be simply said in a few sentences, its probably not a very good idea - most times the quality of an idea is inversely proportional to the number of words used to describe it.
The cliff note version should probably be the gca bible for fans. BTW, Tom Doak did an excellent job of describing many things in pretty brief fashion in Anatomy of a GC. In fact, there were a few areas where I think that could be expanded to a Cliff notes version - there were a few more issues to be covered.
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Mark:
I was asked to write a book like that once, and declined. I just think that if you write a handful of pages on each architect, you are bound to oversimplify, and to say a couple of things that just don't hold water. And I don't think I know anyone who could write them all up without doing so.
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Jeff,
We are on the same wave length. As you say, "if it can't be simply said in a few sentences, it's probably not a very good idea". Our hazards book is fairly concise and to the point for such an involved topic for just this reason.
See what others here on the site say about the idea but maybe we should talk further. You know Forrest and we would surely use our same publisher (John Wiley & Sons, Inc.) as they carry a solid reputation in the industry. And of course the CliffNotes name would not be used (for anyone thinking that this was the intention).
I think it could be good for golf and the industry in general.
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Tom,
I am talking about more than just a handful of pages. You very well know how many golf architecture books are sold and read. The number is extremely low. So how do you get more information like this out to those who might benefit (or just enjoy having it)?
I am not suggesting at all that if you wrote up something on George Thomas for example, that it would replace the book The Captain by Geoff Shackelford. It would not attempt to do that nor could it. But it might get at least some information out there about Thomas to those who otherwise will never take the time to buy and read a book like that. And then maybe it will generate enough interest for those who read this to learn more and go buy The Captain and read that.
I'm sure you have written articles/essays about different architects. In those articles (which are probably only a few pages or so) you were probably trying to capture the essence of who that architect was and/or what they did. It was probably not meant to be the be all and end all. It was probably written to spark interest or tell a story, and to begin the education process. I don't see why a series of books like I am suggesting couldn't be helpful along those same lines. Some of those essays like you might have written could even be included and/or portions/excerpts from books like The Captain could be added as well.
I use the example of the CliffNotes. Those are not meant to replace the "real book", but they do give a good introduction into what it is about. Do they get everything right - of course not. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.
Note: Just to be clear; I am also not suggesting just one book with a ton of summaries in it as that probably wouldn't sell any better than any other golf architecture book. I am talking about a series of individual "golfer friendly" books. Maybe they are 30-50 pages in length (not sure yet) along with some photos, charts, sketches,...
Think about how long CliffNotes are compared to the books they try to summarize?
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Mark:
Yes, I've written short articles for the magazines about different architects, and I hate it -- they always want them to be more definitive than I am comfortable with.
But, if you're going to write a 20-page Cliff Notes version, that might be enough to cover any architect thoroughly, with brief reviews of their main works and what makes them different, rather than sweeping generalizations. I don't know that there would be much of a market for it, but that's a separate issue.
NOTE: Living architects should do this for themselves as a marketing tool.
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Seems like Geoff S "Golden Age" was just about the Cliff note version for that era's gca's no? I don't have it in front of me, but while a nice primer, for someone interested in gca probably those few pages to each gca was not enough. For a casual gca fan it was a great intro.
Maybe the marketing problem would be that there are no casual gca fans - you are either one of the 3500 or so who is really into it and want more, more, more info, or you read GD and other magazines to find out how to get five more yards.....on your putts! ;D
Tom,
The definitive thing must come from our reliance on television shows to wrap things up neatly in a half hour segment.
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Tom,
I hear you about the short articles. But as you imply with your 20 page comment, there is no rule it has to take 300 or 400 pages either.
Having done many board presentations and written enough business plans over the years, I know what many of these guys want. These guys in business are the same guys that run golf clubs. Something that you might think should take 100 slides, they want condensed into 4 or 5. Wasn't it Jack Welch that would not accept plans/reports from his executives that were longer than one page. I felt the same way when running my company. That was plenty of space to get the key points across.
Whether there is a market or not, I don't know. I've put together a number of these already and Forrest and I did quite a bit of research for our hazards book (much of which we just didn't have room to include in the architect section). I was just curious what people here thought? We'll see where we take it.
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Jeff,
That is a great book by Geoff but it still probably only appeals to the core golf architecture audience. The question is; if you break something like that book up and expand on it a bit, can you get it to appeal to a group outside the 3500 or so that you mention? I don't know. Maybe it doesn't help. But that is the group you would be targeting (those golfers outside of the core 3500 or so).
Maybe we test the waters with a few and see?
Mark
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Mark,
Maybe Tom is right and each gca should do his own. Art Hills did "Works of Art" and in each Art Hills course pro shop, it is for sale - with a picture of that course on the cover, naturally!
If you have the material, I am not trying to discourage you and Forrest. And, I think gca's outside the Golden Age deserve similar treatment. Actually, it sounds like a project for ASGCA, perhaps on our website if there is too little commercial appeal. Outside the the hardcore gca fan, my guess is that everyone else would be interested in a gca the week a tournament is played on one of their courses, or after a golf trip to a particularly interesting course.
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Jeff,
Your comments are appreciated as are those of others. Actually Forrest and I had a different idea than this that we were contemplating for a follow on book. It is more a matter of finding time (it takes a lot) to do something with it.
This idea about the series of summaries was just something I have been thinking about for quite awhile. I mention this on my website and have excerpts from a few. They have been quite popular and I thought about doing something more formal with a publisher.
If we want to keep lowering that 99% number to keep Tom Paul happy we need to try to do something. If your 3500 number is correct, then we really have to work hard at it ;D
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Mark,
I hate to keep inflating the size of Doaks head on this site but sometimes it is impossible to avoid.
You should really pick up his book "Anatomy of a Golf Course". It is a quick easy read and is very informative about basic design concepts and execution. I am a novice here and really found his book a great introduction. Now I am beginning to read more (into my 201 and 301 course studies).
Good luck with your search.
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Paul,
I got Tom's book a long time ago along with many others. It is a great introductory book and I've loaned my copy out many times.
Mark
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I figured you may have read it already but I was not sure.
I guess my point is that if a person isn't motivated enough to read or even skip around and scan a book as accessible as this one then they just may not be interested enough to read anything.
It begins to sound a bit like many local schoolboards;
"how can we impart more learning and not require so much boring homework?"
Anyway, This book really got me going. I've now been reading Darwins essays as well as studying more details within the World Atlas. I am sure this is only the beginning.
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Paul,
That is kind of the idea with this. Very few people will pick up a $60 book talking about Donald Ross or even about the architect of their home course. But they might pick up a paper back that is a sixth of that price or less and only 30 or 40 pages long with photos (and not only buy it, but READ it). Something like this might even be sent out to members and/or would be more golfer friendly in general for a larger target audience.
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Golf Travel by Design is a reasonably priced book that could be revised to serve the purpose stated.
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Mark,
I see your point but I am still not sure the audience is there. I guess I am still caught up with the idea that this stuff is out there if you go look for it. Any of us know what great deals can be found on Amazon.
What I can't get through my thick skull is that you want to get this into the hands of people who are not necessarily looking for it.
I still struggle with the idea of getting the kids to eat their peas when they have no desire for them. It is similar to when Dell started to make computers the way they THOUGHT people would want them. They had to take a major step backwards to provide computers the way customers actually wanted them.
I admire the concept but struggle with the sale. It would be very cool if more information was out there and available for every golfer. Maybe a small book you could get when you buy a patron card or sign up for your online handicap service similar to the rules of golf which the USGA publishes. I suppose people would give it a quick read if it was just handed to them.
I suppose I'm really no help here at all. More wine?
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Paul,
The audience is there. The question is whether or not you can get their attention and keep it for a few minutes? And that is very hard to do when it comes to golf course architecture.
Also, the information might be out there, but it needs to be presented in more "inviting" ways. How many golfers are going to pick up a book titled "Anatomy of a Golf Course"? Tom Doak can tell you that it is not that many. Unless they think the book is going to help fix their slice or lower their handicap, they won't bother.
So if you want to create more interest in the subject, you have to come up with different ways to promote it. One of the biggest and most important roles of golf architects is education. That may or may not have been the case in the past, but that is one of their primary roles today. I believe that golf architects need to find ways to get golfers and those chartered with the maintenance and overseeing of golf clubs more knowledgable about course design.
For example, I gave a presentation several months back to students at a turf grass school. We presented overviews of about ten different architects (we found out ahead of time where these kids were going to be doing internships and focused on the architects who designed those courses). In all their training, no one had ever talked about any of this to them before and they all were anxious to learn more. If nothing else, maybe the information presented encouraged them to seek out a detailed book on Ross or about Thompson or ....golf architecture in general. Sometimes people don't know what to look for so you have to help them along!
Maybe some of this helps you to as you say "get this through your thick skull". If you don't figure out new ways to get the kids to at least try the peas, they will never know if they like them or not ;D
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While I agree with Mark's idea that there is value to an educated green and executive committee, I don't think a Cliff Notes style book would be an effective solution to any degree.
I believe there is a solution and I have shared the idea with a number of folks whom I hope will participate. There seems to be some momentum building. I think we'll be in full swing once I get done laying out this Flynn book. This final stage process is a real pain in the arse.
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Wayne,
This is not meant to be a "solution". I'm not sure there is one? This is just another means to help the education process along.
I've gotten some good support on this one idea already offline (some from those who have written detailed books on the subject) so it seems worthwhile. I wish they would post their thoughts here but I respect their interest in privacy with their comments. Keep them coming, both positive and negative as well, as they are helpful.
Thanks,
Mark
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Mark,
Maybe the problem is we are talking about print. I still love to read but many fear that books are soon to go the way of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
If your goal is to reach a younger audience to broaden interest in golf have you ever thought of choosing a different media outlet? Maybe you want to think of video. There is a catch, it would have to be funny or clever or creative but with the right content you could get something on the web very easily. There are a lot of funny guys (Cleese, Murray, Lopez etc.) who love the game. The beauty is that when something catches fire there it is suddenly everywhere.
Imagine, golf and GCA seeming fun and cool!
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Paul,
Funny you bring that up. I have been working with a golf media company in Denver, CO called On Tour Media. Together, we have been developing a video series called -
"On the Course - Golf Architecture in America". The pilot video was finished earlier this year and the hope is that it will be picked up by The Golf Channel or some other network.
Maybe Tom Ferrell will chime in and talk more about it and the latest progress. I know we were looking for a title sponsor.
Again, this is not a solution but it should help the edcuation process. Those we have shown the pilot to really like it. One of the first architects we covered was William Flynn. We even have his daughter on camera talking about Flynn's love of grass and his passion for golf course design. The video has been well received. I believe I've shown it to Wayne and I think even our esteemed Mayday Malone has seen it.
Mark
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Mark Fine, I think your idea is a fine one... ::) oops... ;D
Honestly, I'm in the camp that it would be a process to help education along, or stimulate interest via a simple emersion into the subject, with the intention of drawing more detailed examination from those that find the subjects interesting.
In a way, didn't Cornish and Whitten start this in their own very short version way with their original biographies and fleeting comments about the architects? I bet that their simple and entry level examination of archies and the briefest of life histories of them brought more people to enjoy GCA than many other more robust works.
PS: And I also agree with the multi-media approach. Particularly with such a visual subject as GCA.
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Mark,
I have not seen the video. I'd like to. I've spoken to Connie Lagerman dozens of times but there may be new information I have not yet heard. Your interviewing skills are probably a lot better than mine.
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Mark,
That is a great idea. I hope it catches on, I would like to see some of them hit the air.
On the more basic level (trying to draw new players) I had a thought for you on a series of snippets on GCA featuring comedians who golf. You could place a guy like Ray Romano on say a classic Redan hole. The theme could be "couldn't they have made this easier?". The catch of course being that his dreamed up easier hole is so rediculously easy the viewer gets an understanding of why the original design was good.
Anyway, I wish you well with the video series and hope it gets picked up by TGC if it hasn't already.
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Wayne,
Didn't I show an early version to you and Mayday when you were up at Lehigh? I believe we gave a DVD copy to Connie so if you see her, check it out. We kid her that she is a natural for TV interviews.
RJ Daley,
The C&W book is great. But again, how many people are going to buy a book like that? You can't very well send that out to 400 club members can you?
Paul,
I don't know if we can post part of our video on this site. I'll talk to Tom and see what he says. I think everyone would find it interesting.
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Vasari did Michelangelo in 50 pages or so, and he was his hero and so far ahead of any GCA vis a vis talent and accomplishment that it is insulting to even raise the question.
Of course one could do a "Cliff notes" on GCA. If it were Cliff Clavin it would take about 20 pages, if Heathcliff maybe 600, if the Cliff Course maybe 80. I'd do it if I weren't so busy. Go for it, budding scribes!
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Rich, while your book is stated to be a momento of time spent at Royal Dornoch, and seems to be intended as an ex post facto reflection of the experience; is it not also a sort of multi-media Cliff's Notes style look at the course? In that regard, I find it would also serve as a quickly digested appetizer and stimulant to go there and experience it. Perhaps you are too modest to say that... ;D 8)
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I have a copy of Rich's book and it is just that! It is a quick read and very informative. I recommend it!
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Wayne,
I just heard from Mayday and I did show it to you. You must be having a "senior" moment ;D
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Mark,
Have you looked at RT Jones' book on better golf through understanding architecture? How successful was it? Is it an indicator of what success you might have?
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Garland,
I believe our publisher (Wiley) for our book Bunkers, Pits & Other Hazards probably has access to numbers on titles like that one. I will check but I suspect it is like most golf architecture books which is fairly low.
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I noticed that after the hardcover some years back, it was reissued as a paperback perhaps last year. Thought that may indicate some success.
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Mark,
What would be the plan to actually get this into people's hands?
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Jim,
I haven't thought that far ahead. I'm first trying to convince myself it is worth the time and effort which is why I was looking for some feedback on this site. The cost of the book/booklet (call it what you want) would be relatively inexpensive which makes distribution options easier and more plentiful. Forrest and I like to give out our Bunkers book but it is so darn expensive (retails for $80) that it is tough to do. We might be able to get companies to subsidize it and do mailings to all Tillinghast courses or all ___ courses. Do you have any suggestions of what might work?
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Mark,
I wouldn't want to tel you how to do it, I was just hoping you're not expecting the people who don't read golf architecture today to seek it out because it is shorter.
I think directed mailings to the board and green committees of all (or some, or whatever) Flynn courses (or whomever) would have value as an educational tool on the principles their course was built on.
A DVD sounds more effective to me, but I have not the first clue about production costs.
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JES II:
I like the idea of a DVD. I bet you can get a realistic feel for production costs from Mitch Laurance, one of our newest GCA members. He's an accomplished host/producer of a TV Show and DVD "On The Green Golf Video Showcase".
When it comes to producing DVD's it often seems, you get what you pay for.
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I like the idea of a DVD. That could be an interesting way to do it.