Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Garland Bayley on October 05, 2006, 01:40:33 AM
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I played Astoria CC for the first time. For me it is one of those courses that you want to play again immediately. It is the most unique experience I have had on a golf course.
A tour or the whole course is provided with emphasis on highlights.
Hole 1 400 yds. par 4 - fairly straightforward golf hole.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC1Green.jpg)
Hole 2 276 yds par 4 - raise the interest level playing across a wide valley between dunes to the top of another dune.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC2Tee.jpg)
My tee shot left me less than 50 yards from the center of the green with this view. If you look closely you can see the flag. Although I had walked to the top of the dune and looked at the shot from there, the visual deception caused me to hit a clean shot that did not even reach the green.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC2Approach.jpg)
This is what is blind when you hit your approach shot.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC2BlindArea.jpg)
If you play long you over the back of the dune and playing to a green sloping steeply away from you.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC2TroubleLong.jpg)
Hole 3 416 yards par 4 - a plays down a very narrow valley between the high dunes on either side to a very small green.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC3Tee.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC3FromDune.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC3Green.jpg)
Hole 4 197 yards par 3 - plays down hill to a bunkered green.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC4Tee.jpg)
Hole 5 461 yards par 4 - dog leg right with water hazard providing some risk reward.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC5Tee.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC5TeeRisk.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC5Approach.jpg)
Hole 6 305 yards par 4 - easy, straightforward par 4, probably the easiest hole on the course.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC6Green.jpg)
Hole 7 404 yards par 4 - fairly straightforward par 4 with dune on the right. The cut through the dune provides a unique hazard.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC7Tee.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC7DuneBreak.jpg)
Hole 8 371 yards par 4 - drive across valley between dunes to somewhat blind fairway. Positioning on the right for the best angle into the green could bring the bunker into play.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC8Tee.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC8Approach.jpg)
Hole 9 519 yards par 5 - drive over swamp and play narrow corridor between dune on right and swamp all down the left.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC9Tee.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC9Approach.jpg)
Hole 10 127 yards par 3 - dead everywhere but short! Remember all of these pictures tend to flatten the slopes.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCCHole10.jpg)
Hole 11 537 yards par 5 - quite ordinary
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCCHole11.jpg)
Hole 12 454 yards par 4 - quite ordinary
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCCHole12.jpg)
Hole 13 414 yards par 4 - beginning to see some valley between dunes
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCCHole13.jpg)
Hole 14 443 yards par 4 - wider valley between steep dunes allows longer hole and larger green guarded by bunker
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC14Tee.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC14FromeDune.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC14FromFairway.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC14Green.jpg)
Hole 15 268 yards par 4 - very narrow valley between steep dunes leading to the smallest green translates to a short par 4.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC15Tee.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC15Green.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC15SmallGreen.jpg)
Hole 16 352 yards par 4 - plays back up the wider valley that 14 played down. The fairway is accessed from the opposite side so it appears as though there is one long fairway with a green at each end. A very unique look.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC16Tee.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC16Approach.jpg)
Hole 17 175 yards par 3 - plays downhill, green seems to cant slightly to the back. My high fade ran all the way to the back.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC17Tee.jpg)
Hole 18 414 yards par 4 - very ordinary
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC18Tee.jpg)
While playing the course I wondered what these dunes looked like in their natural state. Between 7 and 8 I got a chance to see and snapped this shot.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCCDunesNaturalState.jpg)
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I played there with a group of GCAers this summer. The cart paths are far worse in pictures than in reality. I liked it, but maybe was a little disappointed overall based on what I had heard about it. Tricky tilted greens, and some outstanding holes. Hitting from top of the dunes in between got a little repetitive.
Worth playing for sure.
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I posted this just before leaving on a 2 1/2 week trip where I played Forrest's Hideout and Jeff's Wildhorse among others. I don't quite understand Sean's comment about hitting from the top of the dunes getting repetitive. Depending on the tees you play, I can only identify 4 holes where you hit from the top of the dunes.
The two very narrow holes running between dunes, 3 and 15, give a new definition to risk reward. On most risk reward holes, the risk/reward option spans a short distance such as cutting a dogleg, carrying a hazard, etc. On these holes, the risk/reward option runs almost the entire length of the hole. The golfer must choose how much he wants to bite off on the tee as a bad shot risks going over the dune on one side or the other of the fairway. So the risk/reward can extend through most of the bag. I played with a fine player that had competed in the Oregon amateur and senior amateur in his "youth". His comment was, "choose your straightest club". So not only do the holes provide extensive risk/reward, they also provide the cart before the horse option. You can tee off with a 7 iron, to get into the valley. Once at the base of the valley, a knockdown shot with almost any club will not climb up over the dunes and return the the base of the valley. Therefore, although I played the longer of the two with 5 wood - 7 iron, I probably could do as well with 7 iron - 5 wood.
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Having the cart paths in that setting is a real affront.
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Garland,
Tommy Naccarato has touted this course for years, it looks interesting, but, it looks like it could use a good tree management program.
I'm sorry that I missed it.
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Having the cart paths in that setting is a real affront.
This begs the question, in what settings are having cart paths not a real affront?
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Here's a Redan with an obvious cart path
(http://www.golfclubatlas.com/images/apache14.jpg)
Should Redans be cart path free?
;)
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I think it is only recent that the cart paths have been paved. I remember them as gravel.
I always enjoyed the course. As I recall, they were going to build a couple more holes and a practice area just north of the course. Did that get done?
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John,
I don't know about the extra holes, but the practice area is great.
I drove by there for years on 101 and never recognized there was a golf course just off the highway, because all the greens are hidden from view. The practice area is highly visible from the highway and makes it obvious there is golf nearby.
There is at least one green in the practice area. Is that what you meant by extra holes?
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Garland,
I count eleven tee shots from the top of dunes, 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,14,15,16,17.
Tom,
Even though this is sand based, cart paths are a necessity on
#3 and #15 and coming up/down the dunes. The width of the fairways is no more than ten yards, and continual cart traffic with no detour would likely be devastating to the condition of the grass and soil. How many times would you aerate a year?
They could make them more sightly by using a colored surface, but even that wouldn't match half the year.
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Peter,
A lot of the tees you mention may be part way up the dune, but are hardly on top of the dune as far as I can recall. If you are using my pictures to make your total, you must realize that I was not playing, but walking the tops of the dunes to take many of my pictures.
I do guess one that we both missed is 10, the short par 3 played completely on top of the dune.
:)
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Pat, It needs a good bit of tender love and care, but it is one fun unique and I might add very good golf course. It apears much frier than when Peter P, John K, Sean L and myself played there in July.
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Astoria is a very special place for me. As Pat explained, I've loved this place for years, driving by it but never actually getting a look until around 1997 or 1998, and when I did, it was like my head exploded.
It went something like this:
My cousin and I were putting around at the pin on the front of #2--the baffling hole that it is--and as Garland has explained, quite deceptive and he went to the very back of the green turned around and look out on to #3 and he said to me, "you not going to believe this....."
My cousin knowing my pension for quirk just knew what was going to happen too, and of course my jaw just dropped seeing the 3rd. And while Tom is right, it is an afront that the cart path even exists, Garland is correct, that it really doesn't affect play. It's just it looks so fugly!
Anyway, as repeticious as Astoria might be, each hole has it's very own character--just like the Old Course. The strategy seems to really exist when playing there, but your not going to see it in any images. It's just a kick!
The course usually plays fast & firm, and the greens are usually lighting.
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I played Astoria as a member of Western Oregon Seniors who play 8 Mondays a year at different courses. Astoria is the first of those that I really wanted to go play again as soon as I finished. Unfortunately, it was too late in the day to play a round, but I did make a quick walk of the course taking pictures and taking some shortcuts which explains why I don't have much coverage of some of the holes.
The next best course I have played on that circuit is Arrowhead in Mollala. They have been working to improve their course a few holes at a time. However, when I played there, the unimproved holes seemed to stick in my mind and I was unimpressed. It took a second look the next year before the course began to grow on me.
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Tommy, I never knew that story about the third hole and your cousin.
When I was allowed to tour the course during a members event, I stopped on the htird tee and called Tommy. I was chuckleing like a giddy schoolboy because of how unique and quirky it is.
I agree the cart paths are a shame since it is so narrow. I imagine those who love soft and lush should move here west of Portland. But somehow I'd suspect they'd find something else not to their liking and consider this gem junk. ::)
And isn' that why appeasing the Augusta syndromed is pure sheit.
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I have not played Astoria but the photos would not want to make me rush over for a game. Those dunes are the same height all along on both sides and they look like someone just formed a trench through the dunes. They do not look at all attractive and seem contrived. There are also several holes which are very blah! looking.
I defer, however to those who have commented above. Quirky can be great at times so if in the area, I would certainly go have a look.
I have seen Gearhart which is not far from there and it looked interesting. I know that it and Victoria are the two oldest courses on the west coast so assume it would be worth a visit just for the sake of seeing what was being put together early the last century on the west coast.
Comments on Gearhart?
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Bob,
If you looked at the picture I took of the dunes just off course, you would see that the course is built in the dunes as they existed, and is not contrived.
Gearhardt suffers the same problem Pat identified about Astoria. At some point in time it was decided that tree lined fairways were the thing to do. In that respect, both courses have a tree problem.
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Thanks for the pictures Garland, looks very interesting. Jordan and I have been trying to get down there to play this one for a while!
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Adam,
I left it out, but my cousin Joe, when he called me over, his words to me were, Come over here, your not going to believe this!
He was right!
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Garland,
I do not doubt that the dunes are as they were. They just look contrived. That is the reason for the comment on them being of consistent height etc. Just looks like someone hired a lot of equipment and drew a line down the middle of a fairway which would be the low point.
I would love to play there. It is just what appears on the little screen.
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Tommy:
Not sure if my jaw would have dropped out of awe or shock over #3, without being too critical as I've not seen it in person I think it's the ugliest hole that I've ever seen.
Jason
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Not sure if my jaw would have dropped out of awe or shock over #3, without being too critical as I've not seen it in person I think it's the ugliest hole that I've ever seen.
I couldn't agree more, with or without the cart path. So much for width . . .
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Jason,
Actually it's a pretty spectacular hole to both play and look at from the tee. Then you end up being in that gutter-like fairway where the scale of the dunes on both sides take affect. It's pretty cool.
This is what I like about Astoria. It allows the character of the dunes to play it's part in the experience and the strategies in playing the holes really comes in affect of where the pin is in relation to the putting surfaces, which most of them are all influenced by the slack of the dunes themselves. The repetition is unbelievable in terms of how it works for 18 holes, with the 2nd, 4th, 8th and 17th being the only holes that break rank. They run in the opposite directions. (East to west/west to east)
When your down in those dunes, you actually feel like the dunes themselves are huge waves, ready to overtake you. Think of as imposing that could be! (in terms of making a shot!)
Given the pin on the green, which most of them you can see where the pin is located from the tee, you literally can carom off of the slack of the dunes in any given direction to get to that pin. Accuracy in driving the ball becomes predominant, although it isn't completely demanding. The playability of this course, given the fast greens is really good.
Listen, I wouldn't tout a course like this, given what I think of containment, but the best verses on the course happen to be in Brad Klein's Rough Meditations. Geoff Shackelford recommended to me to visit there and to also read Rough Med, which at the time I was still in my internet infancy. (late 1996/early 1997)
Brad further helped me set it up and urged me to see it, and you know what they say about seeing is believing!
In person, Astoria is a hidden gem of sorts. At least for me. It's awe-inspiring to some extent. And as Brad elaborated in Rough Med, it's containment in it's most finest form.
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I'd love to see it with you but you've got to blind fold me on the 3rd tee ;) It looks like a gutter lane in a bowling alley.
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Jason,
The entire site is more akin to a Ruffles potato chip minus onion dip, (That is unless Peter Pittock or Sean Leary are in town play there!) ;)
In my years, I have never seen dunes so close together and this is what makes the site unique. Originally before Junor got there in like the 1910's, somebody else supposedly suggested cutting through the dunes. Junor's routing eventually prevailed and the rest is history. A pretty cool history I might add.
It used to say on the scorecard something pertaining to The St. Andrews of the West Coast or something to that effect. The entire pl;ace is an amazing piece of land. Very unique.
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What an odd looking course! IMO the most interesting hole is the 10th. I really like the concept of a volcano type hole, the fallaway on three sides. I must say, from viewing the pix the course doesn't look enticing. However, if I were nearby with time to kill I would certainly give it a go.
Thanks for posting Garland.
Ciao
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Comments on Gearhart?
I haven't played Gearhart since they did a bunch of work on it a few years ago, but in general the dunes are lower and wider than Astoria this allows for a few of the holes run along the tops of them instead of through the valleys. There are also a couple of holes where you tee off from one dune to the valley and they up to a green on the other side. It is also a fun course to play and in some ways might be better than Astoria. If I was in the area, I'd play both of them.
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Jason,
...Originally before Junor got there in like the 1910's, somebody else supposedly suggested cutting through the dunes. Junor's routing eventually prevailed and the rest is history. ...
I.e., the minimalists view won out and we have something that is cherished that Jack Nicklaus and the like would never have imagined in a million years.
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I returned to Astoria yesterday and played in the wind. These pictures from a couple of years ago were taken on a beautiful, warm, calm day. This course is even more of a treat than it was before. I did not take my camera this time, because of the predicted bad weather. Surprisingly we did not get wet, so I could have used the camera if I had taken it.
The reason it was even more of a treat is that in December last year they had three continuous days of hurricane force winds. Therefore, it seemed to me that more than half the trees were gone. No longer was there the (IMO) ugly lines of silly trees lining the parallel fairways, but a much more attractive, though still not optimal, random grouping of trees along the fairways. A picture of the orignal course in the clubhouse shows there were no trees on the holes pictured in it.
One thing that impressed me this time that I did not notice last time was the slope of the greeens. On approximately (I wasn't keeping stats) 1/3 of the greens all or most of the green slopes to the back. Trying to keep my approaches below the hole on greens I was not familiar with meant that I was putting from above the hole after successfully keeping my approach on the front. Unfortunately, this lead to a couple of extra putts. :(
Many people will note that the greens don't have the undulations of say a Tetherow. However, if you realize that some of the greens at Astoria are the size of a pinable area at Tetherow, this doesn't seem quite so significant. :)
Although, I don't believe it was mentioned in this thread, the course was discussed on several threads two years ago. There were a few people that would not believe the assertion of someone else who had played there that the two narrowest holes had fairways 12 yards wide. I checked them yesterday, and they are indeed 12 yards wide.
In the past I have mentioned the repetition of the tunnels. However, after this trip played in the wind, I realized that although superficially the holes seem the same, when you consider, for example, one is played 420 yards into the prevailing wind and the other is played 260 yards with the prevailing wind, they are completely different holes evoking completely different strategic options.
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Garland,
Have they eliminated some of the trees which look like they were an afterthought ?
The course looks like fun.
I hope I get the chance to play it one day.
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Patrick,
The winds were equal opportunity. It took out some strategic trees and left a lot of inconsequential stuff. I played earlier this year and it is probably a coupe of strokes easier.
I was playing with two Astoria members today (at Royal Oaks) and they said there was planning underway for new tree plantings.
The greens usally have a general 25 yard radius to them, and while the majority have a back to front slope, the bigger issue you deal with is the side slopes from the dunes.
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... I was playing with two Astoria members today (at Royal Oaks) and they said there was planning underway for new tree plantings.
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What a shame. If they are planning to plant them to replace the lost ones, that would seem to mean they are planning to return it to the artificial looking stripes of trees then grass then trees then grass. On a majority of the holes, missing a shot means you have a severe lie and stance to deal with. They don't need the trees. The scrubby shore pines that were there certainly don't provide any safety factor. IMO, they would be more dangerous in deflecting a ball back at a player who mishits than they ever would be in defecting an incoming shot. They are so short that a bad miss is rewarded by allowing an easy shot over them, and speaking as the king of bad misses that statement is from experience. I can only think of one tree lost that could have been considered significantly strategic (drive on 16). A bunker properly placed could easily serve the same purpose, and would have the cool feature of being hidden, which is really no problem on a members course.
EDIT:
The trees on the left are gone. The one that obscures the view of the green (which is just left of the bunker to the right of the tree) is the one strategic tree that is gone. One could either hide a bunker up close to the dune on the left, or place a bunker on the left that showed a small deceptive piece from the tee.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/bokuhan_hagaromo/AstoriaCC/AstoriaCC16Tee.jpg)
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So if these dunes are made of sand, wouldn't a massive dirt move do wonders..... ? These "Dunes" do not look very conducive to finding good golf holes.
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So if these dunes are made of sand, wouldn't a massive dirt move do wonders..... ? These "Dunes" do not look very conducive to finding good golf holes.
I guess you just don't get it. There are great golf holes there, because they did not move dirt (sand).
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Garland,
I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.
But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"
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An interesting tidbit about the original design.
Mike Riste's recently published biography of A.V. Macan contains an appendix that lists all of Macan's work, new courses and renovations. That Appendix contains the following short quote out of the February 2, 1924 Seattle Post Intelligencer, "The course, which is about 6,300 yards in length and laid out by R.C.F. Ashbury of Portland. The survey was checked by A.V. Macan of Victoria, B.C."
The Club's website explains, "The Board of Directors employed the services of R.C. Asbury, a purported golf course architect, to lay out the golf course. Mr. Asbury’s proposal had the course running east and west, thus making most play across and over the top of the rolling sand dunes of the property. This plan was not acceptable to the Club President, George Halderman and the Board, so subsequently Halderman and George Junor, the first greens keeper, laid out the course in its present north and south directions between the dunes, following the natural terrain which had been shaped by sand, wind and sea."
I think it is a really neat looking course, with its fair share of quirk and I can well understand Tommy's reaction upon seeing the third hole. I think a trip to Bandon in the summer is going to be lengthened by one day and another course added to the itinerary!
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Garland,
I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.
But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"
That's because you suffer from the same myopia that Ryan does. If you ask Ryan to build a great 280 yard drivable par 4, he will get busy and build all kinds of defenses to the green that make recovery difficult if you attempt to drive the green. He will also provide a patch of fairway for those that choose to lay up.
George Junor built a great drivable par 4 by taking the land just as it was and not messing with it. What better defense could you build than a 30 to 40 foot sand dune on either side of a small green where if you miss significantly on either side you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. If you miss by a little and hang up in the rough you have the most awkward stance imaginable on the face of a steep 30 to 40 foot high sand dune. What better fairway to lay up on than a 12 yard fairway the length of the hole which gives you an extreme range of choices for how far you hit your tee shot to find it. It doesn't dictate the layup shot that the hole Ryan would construct does.
Are there no competent optometrists in Spokane? ;)
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... I think a trip to Bandon in the summer is going to be lengthened by one day and another course added to the itinerary!
The course has been so popular in the past that they have shut down all reciprocal play during the summer, thereby denying other members of this treehouse from playing it when they were in the area. Don't know the current situation, but it bears looking into before making definite plans.
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Garland,
I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.
But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"
That's because you suffer from the same myopia that Ryan does. If you ask Ryan to build a great 280 yard drivable par 4, he will get busy and build all kinds of defenses to the green that make recovery difficult if you attempt to drive the green. He will also provide a patch of fairway for those that choose to lay up.
George Junor built a great drivable par 4 by taking the land just as it was and not messing with it. What better defense could you build than a 30 to 40 foot sand dune on either side of a small green where if you miss significantly on either side you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. If you miss by a little and hang up in the rough you have the most awkward stance imaginable on the face of a steep 30 to 40 foot high sand dune. What better fairway to lay up on than a 12 yard fairway the length of the hole which gives you an extreme range of choices for how far you hit your tee shot to find it. It doesn't dictate the layup shot that the hole Ryan would construct does.
Are there no competent optometrists in Spokane? ;)
Am I alone in thinking that Kalen and Garland are in fact the same person, involved in an extensive battle with opposite sides of personality?
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Garland,
I've never played the hole, nor seen it in person, so I will neither condemn it nor glorify it...but from the pics it doesn't appear to be a "great" hole.
I think while most on GCA.com appreciate when a hole is made to look like it was always there by pushing dirt around to make it appear as if it were naturally occurring....the converse can also be true.
Just because a piece of land was indeed naturally formed, doesn't mean that its form cannot look unnatural and make for an awkward golf hole...and that's what comes to mind when I see this.
But perhaps I'll drive by and take a look this summer during the family vacation on the Oregon Coast! ;)
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A great friend of mine from college is the grounds superintendent there if anybody needs a hook-up.
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Garland,
I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.
But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"
That's because you suffer from the same myopia that Ryan does. If you ask Ryan to build a great 280 yard drivable par 4, he will get busy and build all kinds of defenses to the green that make recovery difficult if you attempt to drive the green. He will also provide a patch of fairway for those that choose to lay up.
George Junor built a great drivable par 4 by taking the land just as it was and not messing with it. What better defense could you build than a 30 to 40 foot sand dune on either side of a small green where if you miss significantly on either side you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. If you miss by a little and hang up in the rough you have the most awkward stance imaginable on the face of a steep 30 to 40 foot high sand dune. What better fairway to lay up on than a 12 yard fairway the length of the hole which gives you an extreme range of choices for how far you hit your tee shot to find it. It doesn't dictate the layup shot that the hole Ryan would construct does.
Are there no competent optometrists in Spokane? ;)
Am I alone in thinking that Kalen and Garland are in fact the same person, involved in an extensive battle with opposite sides of personality?
Terry, I have seen them both although at different events and different times, and they are definitely two different people.
Plus they played "The Grudge Match at Wine Valley" (AKA "The Brawla at Walla Walla") so have to be two different people.
But you could be right.... ;D
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Garland,
I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.
But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"
That's because you suffer from the same myopia that Ryan does. If you ask Ryan to build a great 280 yard drivable par 4, he will get busy and build all kinds of defenses to the green that make recovery difficult if you attempt to drive the green. He will also provide a patch of fairway for those that choose to lay up.
George Junor built a great drivable par 4 by taking the land just as it was and not messing with it. What better defense could you build than a 30 to 40 foot sand dune on either side of a small green where if you miss significantly on either side you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. If you miss by a little and hang up in the rough you have the most awkward stance imaginable on the face of a steep 30 to 40 foot high sand dune. What better fairway to lay up on than a 12 yard fairway the length of the hole which gives you an extreme range of choices for how far you hit your tee shot to find it. It doesn't dictate the layup shot that the hole Ryan would construct does.
Are there no competent optometrists in Spokane? ;)
Am I alone in thinking that Kalen and Garland are in fact the same person, involved in an extensive battle with opposite sides of personality?
Terry, I have seen them both although at different events and different times, and they are definitely two different people.
Plus they played "The Grudge Match at Wine Valley" (AKA "The Brawla at Walla Walla") so have to be two different people.
But you could be right.... ;D
I must admit,
I'm curious for Terry to further elaborate on what he meant by an "extensive battle with opposite sides of personality?"
I'm the charming/charisimatic/handsome one, so its not looking good for Garland ;)
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Garland,
I would say that some of those hole are indeed unique and certainly fit the definition of quirk in my book.
But I don't see anything even remotely resembling "great"
That's because you suffer from the same myopia that Ryan does. If you ask Ryan to build a great 280 yard drivable par 4, he will get busy and build all kinds of defenses to the green that make recovery difficult if you attempt to drive the green. He will also provide a patch of fairway for those that choose to lay up.
George Junor built a great drivable par 4 by taking the land just as it was and not messing with it. What better defense could you build than a 30 to 40 foot sand dune on either side of a small green where if you miss significantly on either side you are up the proverbial creek without the proverbial paddle. If you miss by a little and hang up in the rough you have the most awkward stance imaginable on the face of a steep 30 to 40 foot high sand dune. What better fairway to lay up on than a 12 yard fairway the length of the hole which gives you an extreme range of choices for how far you hit your tee shot to find it. It doesn't dictate the layup shot that the hole Ryan would construct does.
Are there no competent optometrists in Spokane? ;)
Am I alone in thinking that Kalen and Garland are in fact the same person, involved in an extensive battle with opposite sides of personality?
Terry, I have seen them both although at different events and different times, and they are definitely two different people.
Plus they played "The Grudge Match at Wine Valley" (AKA "The Brawla at Walla Walla") so have to be two different people.
But you could be right.... ;D
I must admit,
I'm curious for Terry to further elaborate on what he meant by an "extensive battle with opposite sides of personality?"
I'm the charming/charisimatic/handsome one, so its not looking good for Garland ;)
I'm the skinny one.
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...
Just because a piece of land was indeed naturally formed, doesn't mean that its form cannot look unnatural and make for an awkward golf hole...and that's what comes to mind when I see this.
...
If you are observant while on property, you can look to see that exactly the same landforms continue off property, thereby making them obviously natural.