Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: JNagle on May 11, 2006, 10:23:42 AM
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We have finally received permission to begin conversations about the restoration and ultimate ressurection of the Bedford Springs Resort. The project is about to go into full swing with the golf course reconstruction. This is a fascinating project for us to be involved with. The Resort itself dates to the late 1700's through the work of a Dr. Anderson and his use of 7 medicinal springs. He developed a Resort in the early 1800's with the first bulding being erected in 1805. Subsequent additions came in the 1820's then in the 1855's. The original structure and additions still stand. They are receiving a full face lift with the targeted restoration date of 1855. The Resort aspect of the building came to an end over 20 years ago and at that time was not appealing.
The golf course was orginally laid out in 1895 with features still present on todays course. The 2nd green and possibly the 3rd green have been played to for 111 years. Without question the 2nd green has been there from the beginning. The original course was 18 holes. Tillie came in about 1912 and rerouted the course and as far as we can tell (records do not exist) he left behind a nine hole course. "The Course Beautiful" features a discussion on his TINY TIM hole. In 1923, Ross visited the course and laid out 18 holes. That course remained intact until the early 80's. In an attempt to gain more yardage a par 3 (seen in the background of the Tiny Tim photo) and the 18th hole were eliminated. The 18th was turned into the driving range. We are bringing back the 1923 routing and turning the new holes into a range and wetland. Another apect of the project is the restoration of 6,000 linear feet of a high quality stream and two smaller tributaries. These will remain as an important feature of the course. The restoration of a stream back to its original floodplain and pre-clearing elevation is a fascinating process and one courses need to consider in lieu of the old fix-up - gabions and walls.
We expect to open the course next summer. This is the first year in 111 years that golf has not been played.
The entire project is like taking a step back in time. Bedford is a beautiful quiet town that seems to have been forgotten with the addition of the PA Turnpike.
The Owner asks that none of the photos be reproduced without the express written authorization of the Bedford Springs Resort Partners, LTP. The photos are a small sample of the over 3,000 artifacts that exist from the past. Hope the photos can be seen.
http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/63a3re2.jpg?phws0YEBat0hRb4S
http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/4112re2.jpg?phws0YEBs1DXk6nG
http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/ca88re2.jpg?phws0YEB8wag049G
http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/682fre2.jpg?phws0YEB0aJzyh0b
http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/4f48re2.jpg?phY80YEBzlBucE.L
http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/5d95re2.jpg?phws0YEBn5GlrjYL
http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/ebf2re2.jpg?phws0YEBE1h8RcqD
http://www.forsedesign.net/bedford-springs/1895_routing.jpg
http://f7.yahoofs.com/users/44633fe1zf40ac947/32e3re2/__sr_/e5c1re2.jpg?phws0YEBU3GrHwwY
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Jim,
I have heard good things about what you have planned and I wish you the best of luck. I'm sure it will be a dramatic improvement when you are finished.
Mark
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Jim,
I'm having no luck opening the photographs. Firefox (my web browser) says server can't be found.
Probably because you've listed the sites as yahoofs.com? Must be a western PA thing ;)
Tom Paul told me about his visit yesterday and he had great things to say about the resort, the potential for returning the place to something really fine and your ability to realize it. Best wishes on the project. I hope you'll give us updates.
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Jim,
That's really exciting. Please keep up informed as to progress.
Thanks,
Mike
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Jim and Ron,
Good luck. I played there 30 years ago ; it is in my wife's grandmother's town. I expect we will get there again after your work. I have a bunker idea that you can bring out there ;D;it isn't needed around here.
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JNagle, Congratulations. I stopped at Bedford Springs and played the course fifteen years ago on my way back from taking my daughter to college. At the time I thought that this must have been quite the place in its day. Can't wait to see what you do with the place. Good luck.
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JNagle
Congratulations on an exciting project. I can't wait to see this
golf course when things are finished!
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Jim,
My parents visited Bedford Springs annually for many years 25-30 years ago and loved the hotel and golf course. This is great news, and best of luck with the project. When it's done I may take my Mom there again (76 and still playing a lot of golf).
Best,
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Jim:
Considering all the interconnectedness of all the restoration projects and areas going on there at once (hotel, golf course, and stream configurations) that was all a bit more yesterday than I could take in at one time.
I didn't really have an opportunity to think about it on the drive home because just to the east of the Bedford exit I hooked on to a big Mercedes from New York that was going between a max of 120 and a minimum of 100 and I just slipstreamed him all the way to Philly, so that took most of my concentration for a few hours.
However, when I got home the extent and complexity of that course restoration project really hit me.
What I mean to say, even though I sure haven't been able to think through those three eras on the course that well I think it would be a wonderful thing if you guys could restore most any feature that remains or is documentable from either the 1895 course, the Tillie course and the Ross course even if some of them might not make complete architectural or strategic sense.
What I'm saying is you guys may have a project considering all that's going on there in all phases that is somewhat similar to the way Rome's Forum is being treated and perhaps will always have to be treated. In other words they are trying to expose everything that happened there throughout its entire evolution that spanned literally a few thousand years and that ain't easy considering one era was built right on top of the previous one. ;)
In other words, you may be able to restore a course or even some of the features or even holes of the previous ones that can play to today's values while at the same time clearly showing the architectural arrangement of very different values of days gone by.
I realize there are tons of obstacles to doing that on that limited space but I think you catch my drift.
It could be something like Gary Van Sickle's take on Beford Springs itself that it's like passing from one era to the next to the next as you pass through it.
I certainly realize the only truly logical thing to do is to restore it back to Ross's last iteration as much as possible but I sure hope you can retain all those features that preceded him even if just for the look of them and the historic value of them.
I hope the owners will consider presenting this restoration for what it could be----eg a nice day of golf while at the same time passing through 111 years of diverse golf architectural history.
Ask the owner if some of us in conjunction with you guys could have the opportunity to write up a description of what this could be for those who play golf there in the future. That they are playing across a complete evolution of the eras of golf architecture in America would make playing the course that much more interesting and understandable to golfers.
Lastly, there just has to be some way of iterating that amazing hill/mound back into a green that it must have once been. If that unbelievable landform was only used as a tee in the future it would be a crying waste of a great landform.
Tell the owner that landform is so neat as the green site it once was that if 10-20 people need to die in the future playing it that it's definitely worth their sacrifice. ;)
Wait til you guys see Ross's Volcano hole restored.
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I don't don't how the volcano hole used to look back in, say the 1920's, but I know how it looked about 4 years ago. The hole is certainly a conversation piece for the course. The par 3 over a deep chasm was pretty cool, too. A very interesting piece of ground with great potential.
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Very exciting Jim. It looks to be an incredible project.
Best of luck.
Bob
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We had plans to play Bedford a year ago, but had to re-group due to
"4 or 5 holes being badly flooded." Anyone know if this happens
often, or only during rains of biblical proportions?
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Tom -
I will pass all of this along to the Owner.
I almost felt it necessary to apologize yesterday as we covered so much in a short period of time. We are attempting to keep as much of the history there as we can. It is tough to span the three era's but it is something we are excited about and look forward to doing. The owner is committed to a walking history where signs and stone monuments will document the features from years past.
The recollections posted by others are what we hear alot about the Resort. It seems to have a tender spot in many hearts. Everyone really seemed to love the place.
Hopefully all can see the Volcano hole now. This is from a few weeks ago when trees were beginning to fall.
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/The%20Volcano%20Hole.jpg
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My recollection is that the rise up to the green is steeper than it appears in the picture, with a pretty good back to front tilt.
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"Tom -
I will pass all of this along to the Owner."
Jim:
If you do I hope he understands what I mean. I'm not sure I explained that very clearly.
"I almost felt it necessary to apologize yesterday as we covered so much in a short period of time."
Don't apologize, it's not that you covered too much it's just that I'm pretty dumb. When I hear a simple explanation about something I usually need a day or two to take it in before going on to the next issue. Give me two issues at the same time and I TILT. ;)
Furthermore, I'm not too certain I believe that Tillinghast did that second iteration of Bedford Springs. After this Cascades thing I did some checking in Bedford County records and the county told me they think Flynn was the one who did the second iteration course at Bedford Springs, not Tillinghast. George Bahto said he suspects Raynor might have done it and some guy on here sent me an email saying he thinks Harry Colt designed the second iteration while stopping off briefly in Bedford Springs on his way from Illinois to Pine Valley. Andy Karff of Philmont, or was it Kyle Harris called me and said he thinks Willie Park Jr might have designed it on his way to or from State College. When I told him Willie didn't make that trip for about another decade he asked me what that had to do with anything. Mike Cirba called to say he thinks Bedford Springs was done in ten iterations instead of three. And if I find out that "ne'er do well" J.B. McGovern was ever in Bedford Springs that'll seriously call into question the Ross attribution on the third iteration. And Mark Fine said it doesn't matter who worked on the Bedford Springs course over the years, all that matters is that the owner of Bedford Springs is happy with whoever he thinks did the courses of those various eras. ;)
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unfortunately, I can't see any of the yahoo photos and get this message:
Firefox can't find the server at phvrf.yahoo.com
But, I can see the forsedesign vulcano. Good luck on the project Jim.
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Jim Nagle did make another interesting observation yesterday that I actually did pick up on. That was that some of those old greens out there that are rolling about -13 on the stimpmeter are so high that poa doesn't grow in them. In my mind that means poa is like a f.... shark---eg if it smells blood (stress) it attacks!! ;)
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Let's try this again with the photos.
Tillies "Tiny Tim" - 1930's
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/14%20-%20Tiny-Tim.jpg
1895 Routing of the course.
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1895%20GC%20routing.jpg
Old Par 3 - Approximate location of the current 10th hole.
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1906%20postcard%20-%20golf%20course.jpg
Old 17th Hole (1895 Course) - near location of current #1 green
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1914%20postcard%20-%20golf%20course.jpg
Lobby of the Resort - 1950's
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1957%20hotel%20booklet%201.jpg
1950's Pool - Installed in the 1800's - first indoor Olmpic sized pool
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1957%20hotel%20booklet%203.jpg
Berm crossing what is the current 13th hole, was the 16th in the 1895 course. The bumps in the background upper left are still there.
http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/old%20golf%20course%20photo%201.jpg
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(Hopefully Jim won't mind that I did this. Jim, if you do, let me know and I'll delete it.)
Tillies "Tiny Tim" - 1930's
(http://www.nauticom.net/users/tshirts/TinyTimreduced.jpg)
1895 Routing of the course.
(http://www.nauticom.net/users/tshirts/routingreduced.jpg)
Old Par 3 - Approximate location of the current 10th hole.
(http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1906%20postcard%20-%20golf%20course.jpg)
Old 17th Hole (1895 Course) - near location of current #1 green
(http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1914%20postcard%20-%20golf%20course.jpg)
Lobby of the Resort - 1950's
(http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1957%20hotel%20booklet%201.jpg)
1950's Pool - Installed in the 1800's - first indoor Olmpic sized pool
(http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/1957%20hotel%20booklet%203.jpg)
Berm crossing what is the current 13th hole, was the 16th in the 1895 course. The bumps in the background upper left are still there.
(http://www.forsedesign.net/Photos/old%20golf%20course%20photo%201.jpg)
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Jim, will the restoration match the anticipated golf course maintenance operating budget? In other words are the owners fully aware of what type of dollars it will take to protect their investment? Are they willing to spend the money to hire the right person and give that person the right amount of resources to truly make it a special place for a long time or are they going to just turn the maintenance over to a management company with the lowest bid?
It is always a shame to see such great work in the beginning and then for that hard work to be lost because of lack of support or funds.
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John -
The golf course superintendent has been hired. His name is David Swartzel and he came from Philly Cricket. We are working with Terry Buchen a very well respected turf consultant. The owner recognizes the need for continued maintenance and a "certain" look. That has been stressed from the beginning by Ron Forse. If you want a classic course there is some additional "hand work" that must be done. Benchmark Golf and Benchmark Hospitality will manage both facilities upon completion and to date they have been great to work with. There is some give and take, but in the end it appears that we all are reaching the intended goals.
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Jim
Sounds like you guys are finally getting to move forward. It should be a real interesting project. Best of luck with it and keep us posted.
The Upper 18th green survived last nights rain (1.5 inches) and is growing in well.
Scott
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Jim, that is good to hear. I have worked with Terry before and he has very high standards for doing things right.
Sounds like a good project and will be long after your gone.
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Jim:
There is no question of it---the 9th hole must have two greens---a regular green on the right and an alternate green on the left and you know where the alternate green must be. What golf course has two volcano greens? The answer is no golf course does---not yet anyway.
;)
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Bumping this up as the year draws to a close to see if there's an update on progress at Bedford Springs...
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This what I have on Bedford Springs:
* the original course dates back to the 1895 designed by a fellow named Oldham. The course was supposedly 18-holes and 6000+ yards. I've not been able to confirm this info and I have my doubts about both claims.
* in 1912, according to the commonly told story today, Tilly was brought in and produced a nine hole course to replace the old 18. I have not been able to confirm Tilly's involvement and it seems too early for him IMO. Besides his early architectural activities were very well documented and there is no mention of Bedford.
* in September 1909 American Golfer reported Barker was laying out a new course for Bedford Springs.
* a June 1910 advertisement for BS in Town & Country says that a new 18-hole course is under construction
* an August 1911 article in the Philadelphia Inquirer reports a golf tournament at BS is now in progress on 'the big course'
* a June 9, 1912 article in the Philadelphia Inquirer reports the 18-hole course, which was laid out last summer, had made good progress and eventually will be one of the best courses in the East
* in June 1912 advertisement in American Golfer mentions the new golf links
Based on the timing of events I think it is pretty clear the 1912 course was laid out by Barker, not Tilly, and it was 18 holes not nine. It appears the course was designed in 1909-1910 and opened in 1911.
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Tom,
What do you have on Ross's involvement? Thanks.
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I know Ross redesigned the course in the 1920s, and it must have been a pretty significant redesign because he listed the course as a new course as opposed to a remodel. I have no idea what he may have retained from the 1911 eighteen.
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Tom,
In the first part of the 20th century, Bedford Springs was only nine holes. If Oldham or anyone built another 9, it was sometime after 1905.
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Tom,
In the first part of the 20th century, Bedford Springs was only nine holes. If Oldham or anyone built another 9, it was sometime after 1905.
There seems to be a map above from 1895 of an 18 hole course, and someone posted a photo of what they say was the 17th hole on the 1895 course. It may be that there wasn't a 18 hole course, but it would be a heck of a lot more productive if you would occasionally explain the basis for these know-it-all statements such as this one above.
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David,
News ads for the Bedford Springs Resort in 1905 spoke of the finest nine hole golf course around. They are easily available on Google News search and I'm not vested enough in the results to go through the trouble of cutting and pasting them.
I'm interested in the findings, but not about to get dragged into another attribution battle. Thanks.
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David,
News ads for the Bedford Springs Resort in 1905 spoke of the finest nine hole golf course around. They are easily available on Google News search and I'm not vested enough in the results to go through the trouble of cutting and pasting them.
I'm interested in the findings, but not about to get dragged into another attribution battle. Thanks.
How difficult would it have been to say that in your first post, rather than just throwing it out there as fact without basis?
The condition of the course in 1905 doesn't necessarily speak to whether it was built to 18 holes in 1895, so your conclusion about how any additional holes must have come after 1905 is a bit premature.
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FWIW - I think the recent work on the course was VERY successful. I completely enjoyed my round at Bedford Springs last year and highly recommend it to anybody.
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I've learned that Tillinghast wrote a pamphlet in 1917 called "Planning a Golf Course" and that included were drawings and descriptions of holes he created or reconstructed.
There includes a drawing of the 2nd hole at Bedford Springs, that has been named "Little Tilly" over the years.
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Some good deals this summer that don't require a hotel stay:
http://www.omnihotels.com/upload/images/hotels/pitbsr/pdf/2011%20ross%20preferred%20flyer.pdf
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Here's the relevant portion of Tillinghast's 1917 booklet, courtesy of Phil Young;
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5690133371_a37a231cf5_o.jpg)
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Those drawings appeared in the magazine The Golf Course, and I suspect that is where the confusion came from. Tilly must have redesigned that hole some time around 1916-17; it is extemely unlikely he is repsonsible for the new 18 built in 1910-11. In fact he never listed the course on his resume.
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Tom,
I don't know...I'll see what more I can find out.
I agree he's unlikely to have designed 18 based on what we know, but wasn't he credited for contracting the course to nine holes? I guess that's still possible, yes?
When was the magazine you mentioned published?
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The story has been he reduced the course from 18 to 9 in 1912, which is obviously wrong. The course was actually expanded in 1911-1912. Its possible Tilly contracted the course at some point, but I have not been able to find much on the course between 1913 and when Ross redesigned it around 1923. That magazine ran from 1916 to 1921.
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The information that we have and had available to us during the restoration is contrary to the article discussed. We had access to photographs and postcards not available to the public at that time (private ownership). Knowing the property as we do and as well as witnessing first hand the features from the 1895 golf course it certainly can be confirmed that the course was 18 holes. The written information (gathered from individuals that caddied and played the course prior to Ross' involvement) clearly states the course was nine holes at that time. We were able to map the routing based on the descriptions given and those descriptions fit perfectly with the routing that we were familiar with and match up with Tillie's writings on the par 3. The photographs and post cards provide a glimpse of the property and identify key landforms on the course that exist to this day. I can only confirm what we know through the documents we viewed and some of which now hang in the Resort.
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JN
So based on this new evidence found in American Golfer, Town & Country, NY Times and Phila Inquirer what is your view of who did what and when?
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All we can say from the articles is that there are some missing links in the records at the Resort. There is little doubt that the original course was 18 holes, postcard images from 1896 confirm the layout. The question regarding Barker or Tillie would be to confirm the drawing in Tillie's book. Is it a writing of his design or commenting on another designers layout?
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Jim,
Hope all is well.
Are you saying that the course Ross revamped in the 20s was nine holes at the time?
Thanks!