Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: PThomas on March 15, 2006, 11:12:42 AM
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I was inspired ::) ;) to ask this question from a related discussion on another thread...
without thinking about it too much, I pick PD
besides the great holes there, I also like the scruffier look of the course...Pebble is so manicured, it really takes away any sort of links atmosphere
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Oh please Paul, this isn't even really all that close. I love Pacific Dunes and it is a fantastic golf course. It deserves all praise and high rankings it has received.
It's just not Pebble Beach.
Put me down for Pebble with absolutely no hesitation.
TH
ps - caveat - this assumes I get each course to myself and don't have to deal with real-world realities like crowds. If that is a factor, then Pacific it is, late in the day, finish as the sun sets, no other golfers on the course other than those I allow. For my last round, I don't want any hassles. ;)
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How much money do we have left in the bank?
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That depends, are you a bunny?! ;D
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How much money do we have left in the bank?
Let's hope it's enough to pay for either round... But let's also hope for all of our sakes this round occurs in a far-distant future, so we all have lots of time left before this decision has to be made. Interestingly though, if that does occur, odds are the courses cost about the same at that point! That sure as hell is the trend.
;)
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interesting Huck...I want to think about this some more...but Pebble does have some "lame" - for lack of a better word right now,holes, like 1 , and 2 and....I wonder if 17 would be considered somewhat lame if not for the history that's been made there
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Pacific Dunes in a heartbeat.
More great holes, more natural, no cart paths, no homes, less pretense.
Tom, I view this as not close, going the other way.
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money is not an object Tom D
as Huck said there are no hassles to deal with here...you are assumed to be able to walk, have unlimited funds, etc., etc.....
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Tim:
To each his own - that's the beauty of discussing opinions.
BUT... I grant each of your issues except more great holes. I see more at Pebble. I also see way more chance for late-life glory there, and for a last round ever, well... that matters. I want to hole out my last shot for eagle on 18 Pebble, one of the most famous holes on this planet. As great as PD is, it doesn't have close to that kinda panache.
Now change this to where do I want to spend the last 3 weeks of my life, playing every day, and I'd say Pacific - for many of the issues you raised.
But that's not the question.
Paul - I don't consider any hole "lame" at Pebble - some just get dwarfed by the magificence of the others. In any case, it's not like any are so bad they are blown away by those at Pacific... which has a few in the same category....
TH
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If I was the only person on either course then its Pebble. If it is the way life is on those courses now, then its Pacific Dunes. The golf experience at Pebble is way down because of how the place is managed.
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Tom, your point about playing 18 at Pebble, one of the most famous holes on the planet, made me wonder how much history and fame have to do with people's preferences. For me, it's just not that big of a factor. If I prefer the course, I'd rather play a hidden gem than a course that has hosted major championships. Walking in the footsteps of legends doesn't get me going that much.
Now, Pacific Dunes is not hidden and I'm not saying that your opinion is solely based on the history and fame of Pebble, but I wonder if people would prefer Pebble over Pacific if you took away the history there. A purely academic question, I grant, but my guess is that few people would.
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Pacific Dunes ...
I have played Pebble numerous times and so I will to try something that I haven't played before ...
But, if I have only 1 round left, it is much more important to pick who is in my foursome. It wouldn't matter where we play ...
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Tom, your point about playing 18 at Pebble, one of the most famous holes on the planet, made me wonder how much history and fame have to do with people's preferences. For me, it's just not that big of a factor. If I prefer the course, I'd rather play a hidden gem than a course that has hosted major championships. Walking in the footsteps of legends doesn't get me going that much.
Now, Pacific Dunes is not hidden and I'm not saying that your opinion is solely based on the history and fame of Pebble, but I wonder if people would prefer Pebble over Pacific if you took away the history there. A purely academic question, I grant, but my guess is that few people would.
You can't take away the history. PD may actually be a better golf course in total, but there is something almost spiritual about playing Pebble Beach. Pebble, no question.
A more difficult question for those who have played both may be Pebble or Cypress, one last round...
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Well, I could say Pebble, because if it was my last round, I sure wouldnt want it to end, and at 5+ hours at Pebble, it sure would seem like it wasnt going to end.... ;D
For the record, I would choose Pacific, I just think playing 18, eating the Roast Beef Sandwich with the cranberry dressing, and kicking off would be the perfect way to end it all......in about 50 years or so.
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I've played both. Without a doubt Pac Dunes.
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Pacific Dunes for the golf/scenery; Pebble Beach for the drinks afterward.
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If it's ominous enough that I only have one round left, I'm not wasting my time playing golf, that's for sure.
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Morning round at Pebble. Lunch with Bob at MPCC. PM round at Cypress Point. Drinks at Spanish Bay while the piper pipes. Dinner in the Tap Room.
Rinse, wash, repeat. ;D
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If it's ominous enough that I only have one round left, I'm not wasting my time playing golf, that's for sure.
Really? What would you be doing?
I'll take Pacific Dunes. I've already played Pebble.
I'll ask my family to walk along with me. Can't imagine a better way to go!
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Gotta be Pebble.
Unfortunatley I havent played either, but sometime I will...
...Its just Pebble has all the tradition and when you walk up the 18th you have the beautiful ocean and everything just seems fitting for a happy ending to golf.
Also, it would be with my dad. I love playing with my dad more then anyone else in the world, and to enjoy Pebble as our last round together would be a dream!
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Walking up 18 at Pebble, you have the beautiful ocean . . . and the concrete seawall and the cartpath on the right and buildings all around . . .
Yeah, the ocean's nice but can someone remind me why 18 is a great hole. Sorry, I'm in that camp that thinks Pebble is overrated.
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I'll take Pac Dunes, just in case the doctors are wrong. That way, I can play the other 2 courses right away. ;D
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Bill:
Can I be the 3rd in that group?
Cary
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Brad,
I'm curious what you would rather do to, other than be with family?
I'd choose Pacific of those two. If I do know I'm going to die I'm chartering a plane and going to Dornoch. :)
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Bill,
I beg to be the 4th..I'll even buy all the meals and booze!!!!
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Easy choice. Pacific Dunes.
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I wonder for all of you who don't pick Pebble, have you ever played it sans crowds and sans huge fee?
I have.
The choice really is very simple. No one round at Pacific Dunes can come close to Pebble in those conditions. Try to imagine that... and then make the choice. Maybe you change, maybe you don't. But the assumption is that's how you get it for this final round also, let's keep in mind.
In any case Tim, you do ask a great question re the history, etc. My answer would be the same as another already given - you can't take that away, so why does this matter?
Re 18, I acknowledge your comments, but such matters not for me - this is all quite spiritual and emotional for me. Perhaps it is because I live relatively nearby and so many eventful life things have happened there. But that is the hole I'd want to be my last.
TH
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I'm kinda hoping my last round is on Jim Urbina's grandson's restoration of Pac Dunes in another 50 years or so. :)
Actually, I'm hoping I don't even know when my last round is, that's really kind of morbid when you think about it. Plus, I struggle with the pressure of playing with fellow GCAers now, can you imagine how bad I'd play knowing it was my last round?
Huck, when did you play Pebble when it was empty and free? I'm envious.
Back when Deep Impact came out, as I was watching it, I thought, I'd be at Pebble when the tidal wave hit. But after a few brief seconds of reflection, I came to the same conclusion as Brad.
Thankfully, we will have some Hollywood heroes to save us all.
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That aint no choice at all...Bandon
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George:
Well, it wasn't completely empty, and it wasn't completely free... but my Dad and I did play with no waiting whatsoever - in fact never saw another group - and the fee was the Spanish Bay fee at the time, which under the special deal I had (pre-hotel opening) was $50.
It was rather special.
I've also played Pebble many times when it was crowded, lest you think this one round does bias me too much. ;)
So for me the choice does remain simple. As great as PD is, it isn't Pebble Beach.
At first I was surprised so many were picking PD... but then I remembered what room I'm in. ;D
TH
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Sorry Huck, but I respectfully dissent...Pacific is a much stronger golf course start to finish.
Yes, when I played it, it was free and sans crowd.
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In any case Tim, you do ask a great question re the history, etc. My answer would be the same as another already given -you can't take that away, so why does this matter?
I guess it might matter because it could reveal that those selecting Pebble over Pacific do so for reasons that have little to do with the golf course per se (e.g., history, proximity to the ocean, etc.). My own view is that, based solely on the golf course, Pacific blows Pebble away and, further, that it better matches my view of what a golf course ought to look and play like--rugged, natural, linksy.
Now, if one's preferences are based on personal experiences at the given course (like yours at Pebble), there's nothing someone else can say to change that.
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Jay:
Well, at least you have the proper frame of reference.
And I would respectfully disagree, although I'm not sure what you mean by "stronger." In any case it doesn't matter - to me there is no possible measure whereby Pacific is a superior golf course, if you keep things equal in terms of crowd and cost.
Factor those in, and yes, the experience is far better at Pacific.
TH
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Tim:
Remember, we're not asking which is the better golf course, we're asking which is the one at which one would want to play his last round. How can personal experience/emotions/preferences NOT factor into that?
In any event though, I'd also say Pebble is the superior golf course. I'd certainly respect those who prefer Pacific, as it is freakin' great and in the end this really is splitting hairs (which if you think about it, is one hell of a testament to Pacific - Tom Doak sure had that right).
So sure, say you prefer Pacific, it fits what you like in golf courses better, whatever.
But Pacific "blows away" Pebble?
That's crazy-talk.
And remember I absolutely love Pacific, and I too prefer the scruffier look. I just also do very much respect history, and enjoy heroic/majestic golf shots and subtle greens that are exasperating to figure out.
TH
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Tom, I understand the question which is an entirely subjective one. I was just trying to make a point in support of my view that Pacific is a better course or, at minimum, a course that appeals to me more. BTW, I like to engage in crazy talk every now and then.
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Tim - very cool, gotcha.
;D
You are far from alone in this preference, btw. I shudder to think of the response from redanman if he sees this.
TH
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Put me down for Pebble.
I haven't seen Pac Dunes yet, and I intend to go if time and money ever permit, but I loved my two rounds at Pebble Beach and I haven't experienced anything else in golf that compares (Sand Hills and TOC were close.)
I do get a few farewell bumps at the Tap Room, don't I? And can I have a Wild Turkey or two while listening to the jazz trio in the lodge before...gulp...well, you know...?
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I loved my two rounds at Pebble Beach and I haven't experienced anything else in golf that compares (Sand Hills and TOC were close.)
You must have preferred your playing partner at Pebble Beach. :-*
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I wonder for all of you who don't pick Pebble, have you ever played it sans crowds and sans huge fee?I have.
I have too, and if there is a better second shot in all of golf than #8 at Pebble over the ocean and cliffs I have never seen it. Including history, no contest, Pebble, and how can you play it and not imagine Nicklaus, Watson, Tiger, etc. 's great shots, it would be like walking into Yankee Stadium and not imagining Ruth, Gehrig and Dimagio. No. 18 at Pebble is the best par 5 in the history of golf.
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No. 18 at Pebble is the best par 5 in the history of golf.
Why? After the tee shot, what does it offer? It's usually a three shot hole and the layup isn't particularly challenging or interesting. Please enlighten me.
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Sorry Huck, but I respectfully dissent...Pacific is a much stronger golf course start to finish.
Yes, when I played it, it was free and sans crowd.
Jay,
Did you feel that the back nine at Pacific Dunes was somewhat compromised by having four par 3's and three par 5's and only two par 4's ?
Do you think that the back nine at PD is better than the back nine at PB ?
But, I'm puzzled by something.
Pebble Beach is being knocked because it's very expensive to play, and yet, everyone on here is saying that it's very crowded. What does that tell you ? ? ?
Expensive to play, yet golfers flock to it.
Perhaps its got something to do with the quality of the architecture and the playability of the golf course.
Tom Pitner,
How many times have you played the 18th hole at PB ?
And, do you think that Pebble Beach might have had that rugged, natural, linksy look right after it opened for play ?
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I have played several rounds at PD. I haven't played PB. I would very much like to play PB, and will probably scrape up enough money to go one time, but if we are talking last round ever... I'll take the familiarity of PD over trying to hack my way around a course with which I'm not familiar.
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I would hate to end my life in the gash in the ground that tries to pass itself off as a bunker next to the 18th green at Pacific Dunes..
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Me too, John. That's why I always miss left on 18 and end up in the real bunker!
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Pebble Beach is being knocked because it's very expensive to play, and yet, everyone on here is saying that it's very crowded. What does that tell you ? ? ?
Expensive to play, yet golfers flock to it.
Perhaps its got something to do with the quality of the architecture and the playability of the golf course.
Tom Pitner,
How many times have you played the 18th hole at PB ?
And, do you think that Pebble Beach might have had that rugged, natural, linksy look right after it opened for play ?
Pat, to answer your question, probably not enough times to make an expert evaluation. But, I've yet to hear anyone articulate why 18 is such a great hole.
Do I think Pebble Beach may have looked different in the past?--I really don't know, but neither do I particularly care. I'm more interested in comparing the current Pebble to the current Pacific Dunes.
The fact that people flock to Pebble may have less to do with the golf course and more to do with the status of playing Pebble. Thankfully, that crowd is much less of a factor at Bandon.
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I have never played but have been to Pebble Beach on two occasions (simply too much money). I have played PD five times. There is no comparison to me. Pebble is all about money to me, from the Lodge, to the cost to play, to the very expensive housing located around it. In spite of the beautiful ocean views at Pebble, those items I mentioned would take away from my experience of playing a great golf course like Pebble.
At PD, you have equal seaside beauty and no man-made elements to remind you of where you are once you venture away from the clubhouse. At PD, everything is simple without frills, winding through the dunes and the high ocean grass, in the elements, playing a great golf course with great variety. No Golf Carts. Even the clubhouse is quite simple. Additionally, the conditions at PD favor a different type of game that we in the US rarely get to play - along the ground - which makes for a much more interesting time. It is just a joyful golfing experience in a fantastic setting. The statement "Golf as it was meant to be played", means more to me now than the first time I played there.
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Huckster
You are correctumundo, yet again! Must be osmosis from rubbing slide rules with all those geeks at Yahoo.......
Pacific Dunes is a superb golf course which will probably only get better as it matures (and if Mike Keiser lets Tom Doak tweak it from time to time...). But......Pebble is Pebble is Pebble, as Gertrude Stein once said.
We all have our own private Pebble, even those who have only played it in their dreams. Mine doesn't include any of Bill McBride's accessories (pleasant as they can be). I'll die in my follow-through to a solid 6-iron hit from the edge of the chasm on the 8th, probably by a lightning bolt. If I end up in hell, I'll see it go straight for the flag, land, check and then lip out. I will be alone. If I am in heaven, I'll just hit the fat part of the green, two-putt and continue my round with my best friends.....
And, yes, I'll take Pebble for this scenario over Dornoch, any day of the week.
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No. 18 at Pebble is the best par 5 in the history of golf.
May I have a toke of that, please? Maybe a whole bag?
Completely unsupportable position in a debate. That is not that interesting a hole and frankly it is the "greatest" only if one picks "The greatest degree of hype" ever applied to one hole. It most likelyonly ranks in double digits on its own course as "most interesting hole".
Huck, shudder no more.
I'd head offshore if I could make it, those two would probably not be my in my final 10 for a final round, although Pac Dunes would be closer to #11 and Pebble about #327, all things considered. ;) And I would not take either of my cats.
But, I'm puzzled by something.
Pebble Beach is being knocked because it's very expensive to play, and yet, everyone on here is saying that it's very crowded. What does that tell you ? ? ?
Expensive to play, yet golfers flock to it.
Perhaps its got something to do with the quality of the architecture and the playability of the golf course.
Patrick
please, please, please ... ... ...
Please do not be puzzled, it is simple mathematics. There are only so many people needed to keep pebble crowded.
It is nearly completely about who has the money to do it, but frankly I don't know if some on here can recognize that. ::)
There is so much hype about Pebble and at an absolute max ~ 55k rounds a year. (Hint: 6 foursomes an hour * 7 hours daily* 7 days a week * 48 weeks a year = answer). Consider that many business junkets eat up 3-4 rounds per player and you probably only need 20K people max. yearly to play, and probably less than that.
There's enough CEO's COO's, tourists and others to play"the ultimate" to keep it real busy.
Simple business proposition. Then just raise the price incrementally to see what the traffic will bear.
How much money do you think Shinnecodk would be able to get if it were a "Shinnecock Tribal Resort" property with so many fewer rounds available?
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And, yes, I'll take Pebble for this scenario over Dornoch, any day of the week.
This statement should stop this discussion dead in its tracks. :o
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And, yes, I'll take Pebble for this scenario over Dornoch, any day of the week.
This statement should stop this discussion dead in its tracks. :o
Dr Gene,
See below!!
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So, it's the annual dog-pile on Pebble Beach thread. How predictable.
Paul T suggests that nos. 1 and 2 are "lame." Two may no longer be challenging enough for the modern game, but it is one of the most elegant, classical golf holes I've laid eyes on - a good 3 to 7 hole without the gimmickry. Funny, IMHO, the opener at Cypress Point Club (America's greatest golf course according to Golfweek) is no better and the second is a push as well, though the tee shot at Cypress' 2nd is one of my favorites in golf.
I don't give Pebble any mega-props for the 18th either - maybe the most overrated golf hole in the country once you walk off the tee. Visually, I found it more disappointing than the oft-maligned 17th.
That said, in my limited travels I have not played a golf course better than Pebble Beach. The greens are ingenious and well-crafted. The golf holes are gently draped on the land. The degree of difficulty ebbs and flows throughout the routing. I am, however glad I played there before the abdomination that now dots the 15th fairway.
FWIW, I paid retail.
Wonder how many would pick Cypress Point Club over Pacific Dunes?
This I know, this thread really makes me want to get to Bandon if Pacific Dunes is in the same league.
Mike
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Mike:
You do need to get to Bandon, as I do believe Pacific Dunes is in the same league. BUT... the Baltimore Orioles are also in the same league as the New York Yankees. That's pretty analagous here.
I would pick Cypress Point over Pacific Dunes no question - but that can't surprise you - I'd pick it over Pebble as well. I'm sure you want to know how many of these guys who choose PD over PB would change their answer if it was Cypress... that would be interesting, for sure.
In any case re PB, I'm not sure how you can call it overrated "once you walk off the tee", nor why that matters. You don't find the second/third shots intriguing with the ocean crashing to your left? My you have become jaded. ;) In any case, couldn't you say this about damn near every hole? That is, take away it's best feature and it's overrated? Not sure what the point is there, mi amigo.
Rich - Yahoo! has been good for me in oh so many ways. ;D
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Tom,
The hole on the ground is just not as good as the one viewed from the blimp. I was surprisingly underwhelmed. If I could move the ball from right to left I might feel differently.
It's not the hole. It's me.
As you know I've played CPC and PB once each. I'd go with PB on the next trip out there. In 10 rounds it's 5/5.
Lest we all forget, it is a great privilege to play either course.
Mike
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Mike:
Great point re the privilege. It sure as hell ought not to be taken for granted.
Re 18, well... as a left-to righter it must not "match the eye", as they say.
;D
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Patrick,
Nice try regarding Pebble Beach, but Bill sums it up pretty well. Besides who wants to explain what Pacific Dunes is and why it is a great course. Even non-golfers know Pebble Beach exists, and I think that is the greatest reason the course remains crowded.
I think Pebble is great, but I just prefer Pacific for my game and the more interesting things going on around the greens. Being a bumper of the ball around the greens instead of a flopshot guy also factors in to my preference.
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I thought Pacific Dunes was incredible. I'll definitely go back to Bandon for golf before Monterey. With that being said, I'd take Pebble for my last round. And for the record:
18th at Pebble - all world, no question about it.
-Ted
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Ed - if you think at Pebble there is less going on around the greens - and on the greens - methinks you really need to examine the Pebble greens more closely. Also, the ground game works VERY well there - no flop shots necessary - in fact none would be recommended...
This is interesting - I thought subtle greens would be right up your alley.
TH
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Huck
To paraphrase Jack (having said it of another course) Pebble would make a nice member's course.
18th at Pebble - all world, no question about it.
-Ted
all-world experience? Certainly not all world golf.
Has Pete Dye ever built one of his trademarked 18ths as a par 5? If so, it would be all solar system ??? , because he builds better green complexes than at PB. Just think TPC Sawgrass + 100 yds.
p.s. I really love doing this every 3 months...
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That's cool. I kinda like nice members' courses.
;D
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Tom,
I'm not saying Pebble is necessarily a flop shot recovery course. What I'm saying is I don't have a flop shot. :-\ I do better bumping the ball around as you saw at Callippe. If you ever see me hit a short shot and the ball goes higher than my waist, it was an accident.
Pebble's greens are subtle, but they are quite small, so even though the breaks are tricky to pick up sometimes (#13 green stands out in my memory), I don't think it is as hard to get the ball in the hole there (other than the greens being somewhat bumpy).
#8 PB alone is enough for me to think hard before choosing another course over Pebble in these exercises.
One other factor to keep in mind is that Pebble Beach is a little towards the tough end of the spectrum, with small greens to boot, for a guy like me who is erratic to say the least.
So I still choose Pacific, but I certainly can understand others choosing PB.
One other thing is that even if the golf is free and the course is empty PB still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This may not still be true, but when I went there with my brother years ago they made it feel like I should be thanking them to be allowed to give them my money. I really dislike arrogance, and they exuded it when I played there.
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Ed - re the emotional factors, hell that's understood. I just have as many reasons for liking it as you do for disliking it, given the one round with my Dad (read back).
And all the rest is fine - I just still do think you've assessed the greens incorrectly, if you think it's tougher to get the ball in the hole there than at PD...
We'll have to go there and chip and putt sometime.
;D
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Huck
To paraphrase Jack (having said it of another course) Pebble would make a nice member's course.
18th at Pebble - all world, no question about it.
-Ted
all-world experience? Certainly not all world golf.
Has Pete Dye ever built one of his trademarked 18ths as a par 5? If so, it would be all solar system ??? , because he builds better green complexes than at PB. Just think TPC Sawgrass + 100 yds.
p.s. I really love doing this every 3 months...
I might be the only one, but the arguement between all-world golf and all-world experience is laughable to me. . .
It is often possible to confuse and obfiscate the truth about something by presenting a bunch of semi-related but largely extraneous data. . . most good liars/manipulators are experts.(I'm not calling you a liar or manipulator, I'm just making a point)
Are you familiar with any non-western philosophy? Have you ever read anything about Zen Buddhism? Many non-westerners consider first hand experience to be the only truth in this world.
I tend to agree with that line of thought more than the type of reasoning/logic that you so often use . . .the ultra dry, and in my opinion, relatively useless examination of various details in an effort to define artistry. If you want to use that logic to examine a beating heart, define the economy, launch a space shuttle, etc. I'll be right there behind you. I just don't see any validity to using that aproach to define or understand things like beauty, artistry, experience, etc.
I define golf courses and golf holes based on the real world experience of playing them. So much is lost when your try to break something like the 18th hole at Pebble beach down into small details in an effort to define and describe it.
Can a golf hole be greater than the sum of its parts?
Can a painting or sculpture be judged in the same detailed manner that you use in your effort to judge or "rate" golf courses/holes by? Don't we consider GCA to be an art form? Why do you think that you can find any reality in GCA by reducing golf holes to their smallest details in an effort to define them? Couldn't something very real be lost in that "bottoms up" type exploration.
-Ted
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I would pick Pebble Beach only because I have not yet played there and I have played Pacific Dunes 4 times.
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I think a better question is if you could only play one golf course for the rest of your life, which would you play, for me it's hands down Pacific Dunes.
More variety, ground game firmer and faster and more interesting greens (IMO).
If you've not played either and had only one round to play, Pebble might be it for the history alone.
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Can a golf hole be greater than the sum of its parts?
Absolutely, just like a golf course can be greater than the sum of its parts. I happen to think this is the case with Bandon Dunes. If you analyze it in terms of great golf holes, it may come up short. But, in addition to obvious holes like 4 and 5, I think holes like 1, 7, 8, 11 and 14 are really enjoyable to play. More to the point, I have never walked off Bandon thinking that I wanted more. A similar analysis can be applied to golf holes.
While I expressed skepticism that Pebble No. 18 is as good as reputed, I sincerely was hoping someone would explain the case for its greatness. Perhaps this has been discussed before, but I haven't heard anyone address this yet.
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I think a better question is if you could only play one golf course for the rest of your life, which would you play, for me it's hands down Pacific Dunes.
More variety, ground game firmer and faster and more interesting greens (IMO).
If you've not played either and had only one round to play, Pebble might be it for the history alone.
I agree.
-Ted
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Jason B:
Though I keep lobbying for Pebble, I made a similar argument to yours right at the beginning. Just remember this question is ONE final round.
Tim:
Here's my case for PB18 as a great golf hole:
1. Fantastic tee shot - trees in center complicate things, as does OB right - how bold are you>? Need to hug the coast if you're gonna have any chance to get there in two.
2. 2nd shot - if you've succeeded on the drive, you can get there, and it is one hell of a hard shot with ocean left, sand/tree/OB right. If not, the layup is not as simple as it seems - you need to stay left so as not to be blocked by greenside tree - and there's a lot of death too far left.
3. Approach - no matter where it comes in from, it's very interesting. Bunker slopes away on greenside, complicating things. Ocean left. Can't go along -dead.
4. Green - very subtle, misread all the time.
Notice I didn't even mention the views, nor the history? Factor those in and it's case closed.
;D
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Tom, thank you.
I'm not sure I'm convinced, but you certainly put forth a worthy effort.
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I might be the only one, but the arguement between all-world golf and all-world experience is laughable to me. . .
It is often possible to confuse and obfiscate the truth about something by presenting a bunch of semi-related but largely extraneous data. . . most good liars/manipulators are a experts.(I'm not calling you a liar or manipulator, I'm just making a point)
Are you familiar with any non-western philosophy? Have you ever read anything about Zen Budhism? Many non-westerners consider first hand experience to be the only truth in this world.
I tend to agree with that line of thought more than the type of reasoning/logic that you so often use . . .the ultra dry, and in my opinion, relatively useless examination of various details in an effort to define artistry. If you want to use that logic to examine a beating heart, define the economy, launch a space shuttle, etc. I'll be right there behind you. I just don't see any validity to using that aproach to define or understand things like beauty, artistry, experience, etc.
I define golf courses and golf holes based on the real world experience of playing them. So much is lost when your try to break something like the 18th hole at Pebble beach down into small details in an effort to define and describe it.
Can a golf hole be greater than the sum of its parts?
Can a painting or sculpture be judged in the same detailed manner that you use in your effort to judge or "rate" golf courses/holes by? Don't we consider GCA to be an art form? Why do you think that you can find any reality in GCA by reducing golf holes to their smallest details in an effort to define them? Couldn't something very real be lost in that "bottoms up" type exploration.
-Ted
(I don't do the color thing ..... so pay attention to what goes where)
oooooohhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm
oooooohhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm
oooooohhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm
Calm down Ted! ;)
First off I am hurt very deeply that you didn't comment on my juxtaposition of the parts of TPC Sawgrass #18 with the parts of PBGLŽ #18. LOL
Some day you may get lucky and you will understand the scientific approach if you keep at it long enough. You don't need to like or accept or apply it, but understand it.
(And here's a guy from FOX telling me about the truth, half-truths, obsfucation, lies and the liars who tell them? :) )
The whole idea of identifying quality features and quality holes and quality golf courses and quality experiences is wholly the experience to know the difference.
If you need to care about the experience, so be it. I don't need Pebble and its scenery to get my jollies, I can get really excited just across the road from my house at the Muni. I have great experiences all the time, truly great experiences, even on rat-ass munis.
Just remember that everyone has different standards. Virtually every ***** Golf Digest "Place to Play" is Doak 6's and above.* Also, please remember that this is a place, perhaps THE place for those of us shallow enough to dissect experience from artistic expression. I love apearing that shallow, but know that you will likely never find someone more likely than me to have a great time on any golf course that you put me on.
It's like love and lust in a way, each is really nice, but they are differnt things. I want love AND lust. But just love is really good.
I love a good experience, but I know the difference between great experiences with great architecture and just great experiences.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but I may give my opinion as this is a discussion group.
* I am trained as a scientist, first and foremost. I can however play musical instruments, paint and cook, but I prefer photography and drinking wine. I am thankful for every day I drag my cranky-ass, broken-down decrepit body out of bed for another go-round. I am probably closer to a Buddhist in my approach to life and absolutely cannot stand the hypocrisity of Neo-Conservatism.
And never, ever forget:
A great experience IS greater than the sum of its parts.
Q.E.D.
p.s. I'd rather do the Sheep Ranch for the last supper than either of the two on the thread. Experience defined, if you will. It is what you make of it.
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1. ... .. ... Need to hug the coast if you're gonna have any chance to get there in two.
(just for the hell of it..)
HOW MANY TIMES AND FROM WHAT TEE HAVE YOU DONE IT?
WHAT MONTH(?S) WAS IT
WAS THERE WIND, WIND, WIND? or just WIND?
WHAT CLUB DID YOU HIT
WHY?
WHAT DID YOU FEEL?
:-X
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Ted
You're a GREAT sport!
Bill
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(I'm not calling you a liar or manipulator, I'm just making a point)
(And here's a guy from FOX telling me about the truth, half-truths, obsfucation, lies and the liars who tell them? :) )
;D ;D ;D
Well done!!!
-Ted
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Ted
You're a GREAT sport!
Bill
I love a good debate.
And I tend to disagree with just about everything you say . . .
you are my dream come true ;D ;)
-Ted
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1. ... .. ... Need to hug the coast if you're gonna have any chance to get there in two.
(just for the hell of it..)
HOW MANY TIMES AND FROM WHAT TEE HAVE YOU DONE IT?
WHAT MONTH(?S) WAS IT
WAS THERE WIND, WIND, WIND? or just WIND?
WHAT CLUB DID YOU HIT
WHY?
WHAT DID YOU FEEL?
:-X
I've played there about a dozen times. Most were when I was quite young, and so getting there in two was not a possibility - however, getting there in THREE required the same sort of hugging of the coast. And in later years, I played it into the wind, such that there was a definite advantage to hugging the coast as well... the yardage gain was worth the risk.
One also can't get caught behind the trees....
But to answer your questions:
I never have reached - got very close once, got it right into the neck - if I am ever going to reach, I have to hug the coast for sure.
That rather renders the remaining questions moot, no?
But it doesn't render my point moot at all - for longer hitters than me - and that's the vast majority of decent players with today's equipment - reaching in two is doable, thus the need to hug the coast. For the rest, the yardage gain still might make it worth the risk, and remember you don't want to get behind the trees in the right center.
TH
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Redanman,
In all of the times that I've played Pebble Beach, I've never been paired with a CEO or COO.
I've always been paired with regular folks, people from near and far who have played Pebble Beach previously and loved it, or first timers who've seen it on TV and want to experience it.
At 55,000 rounds a year, they're getting a lot more than CEO's and COO's as patrons. And, Pebble Beach isn't exactly on the beaten path.
The fact is: It's a wonderful golf course, with universal appeal.
Long rounds are one of the products of continuous cart paths and cart path only rules. On my last visit, I played 36 a day, I teed off first everyday and then again last, and never had a problem. I had great caddies every time.
I also had great caddies at Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes.
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Well, Pebble, since I've already played PD and haven't made it to Pebble, fool that I am.
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Pebble is Pebble is Pebble, as Gertrude Stein once said.
Of course, she was tired at the time, after a relatively short but extremely stressful drive down from Oakland -- where she'd found ... well, no she hadn't!
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Yes, Dan. I think she remarked, "There is there, there," when she got to Pebble....
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Put me down for Pac Dunes.
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Redanman,
In all of the times that I've played Pebble Beach, I've never been paired with a CEO or COO.
I guess you were the one close enough. ;)
There's a lot of multi-round business golf at PBGLŽ.