Golf Club Atlas

GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tony_Muldoon on February 10, 2006, 06:16:11 PM

Title: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on February 10, 2006, 06:16:11 PM
So where is this?  (original title)  


Is it O/t? No way.

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritz/DSCN0672.jpg)

But be quick because I'm going there tomorrow.

Title: Re:So where is this?
Post by: Sean_A on February 10, 2006, 06:49:24 PM
Tony

This may sound whacky, but my guess would be Portmeirion.  I have never seen the faux (don't know the Italian for fake) Italian village, but your photo somehow matches my imagination of what Portmeirion would look like.

Ciao
Title: Re:So where is this?
Post by: peter_p on February 10, 2006, 08:41:34 PM
definitely not Portmeirion. It looks like Spain, Portugal or one of the islands. Muldoon's too far from So Cal. Its definitely Mediterranean look.
Title: Re:So where is this?
Post by: cary lichtenstein on February 10, 2006, 08:47:43 PM
Spain???
Title: Re:So where is this?
Post by: Brent Hutto on February 10, 2006, 09:22:05 PM
 Is it O/t? No way.

Keep in mind, he's telling us there's a golf connection somehow.
Title: Re:So where is this?
Post by: ForkaB on February 10, 2006, 10:28:09 PM
Biarritz?  Original "Chasm" hole?
Title: Re:So where is this?
Post by: Keith Durrant on February 11, 2006, 02:36:55 AM
Tony, which courses are you planning on playing? Don't forget the camera ;)
Title: Re:So where is this?
Post by: Sean_A on February 11, 2006, 03:59:38 AM
Well, if it isn't Portmeirion, I am going to guess the Algarve.

Ciao
Title: Re:So where is this?
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on February 11, 2006, 04:13:41 AM
Correct Rich.

 This is about as close as you can get without invading private property or having mountaineering skills.  The original tee was (probably) on that ledge in the centre of the picture the other side of the garden.  The Atlantic was unusually quiet last July and to have played that shot with the wind howling and the sea crashing below must have been something.

Here is a painting from George Bahto’s excellent The Evangelist of Golf

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritz/Biarritzpic.jpg)

The artist must have used the following photo hanging in the clubhouse as the model.

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritz/DSCN0666.jpg)

You can also just about make out the routing from the old map on the wall.  “The Chasm” was the third.

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritz/DSCN0619.jpg)

Finally I picked up this postcard when I was there. I’m not sure when the lighthouse was built but the photo could be from it.  The hole existed from 1888 to WW2 and if it’s an aerial then it’s very early. As best I can work out the original green would have been the other side of the second house on the right of the picture.

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritz/BiarritxbW1.jpg)


I will post more photos on the modern day course next week. There’s a voice outside my head shouting something about packing. Have a good half term.  (No golf clubs this time alas.)
Title: Re:So where is this?
Post by: ForkaB on February 11, 2006, 05:17:49 AM
Thanks, Tony.  Do I get a sweetie for getting it right?  I'm on half-term too, at least vicariously......

The lighthouse (and the Franco-Hispanic architecture) were the giveaways.

Great additional pictures. I'm particularly intrigued by the old stick routing that says that the hole was 90 yards!  Uncle George Bahto says in his feature interview on this site that there was a 170 yard carry.  90 seems much more realistic at the turn of the last century.  The guys who could carry it 170 then were the Bubba Watson's and JB Holmes' of the Edwardian age.  Was there length added at some time before Mcdonald saw it/heard of it?

Of course, I've always been sceptical that the Chasm was Mcdonald's inspiration for his Biarritzi (is that the proper way of pluralising in Basque?).  The 16th at North Berwick seems a much more likely candidate, but who am I to know.......? ;)
Title: Re:So where is this?
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on February 11, 2006, 05:46:50 AM
Divorce is now imminent. Can someone else ost the sketch on page 150 of George's book. See ya
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on February 17, 2006, 05:00:49 PM
If you want something done round here then you just have to do it yourself.

This is the schematic of the hole from George’s book.

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritzholeplan8.jpg)

AS this shows the original hole was very challenging when it was designed by Dunn in 1888.  Within a decade the ‘chasm’ element was dropped and the hole was shorter.  MacDonald’s main trips to see and study holes in Europe were 1902, 1904 and 1906 so he would have been aware of all this.  He would also have seen the angle of attack into the green had changed.

On this latest trip I read what I could in local book shops and it seems that after Chiberta was opened with the Prince of Wales in attendance in 1928 this club fell out of fashion and became known as a place where the young could play. Hence by the 1960’s the hole was only 90 yards long. A young man form the club told me that the section of the club by the sea disappeared after the war, but on reflection he wouldn’t even have been born in the 60’s!  


There are not very good photo’s in local history books of the holes that were played down at sea level and looking the other way from the first picture shows the hotel built in 1968 that necessitated a major change to the course.

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/DSCN0674.jpg)

However there is one more picture showing another of the original holes playing 60 yards up from the beach area  - again a challenging shot in 1888?

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritz14tholdbW.jpg)

I will post on a separate thread how the course is today.  As the following card show absolutely nothing remains of Dunn’s work despite the claim on the card. Does anyone know who is responsible for the redesigns in 1946 and 1the 1960’S?

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritzplangood4.jpg)
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: TEPaul on February 17, 2006, 07:15:51 PM
Tony:

Do you know for sure when those architectural drawings were done?
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: George_Bahto on February 17, 2006, 10:26:48 PM
Tony: the green was to the left of the lighthouse.

It is no longer there.

The tee is not longer there, neither.

funny: a friend of my was going there last year (a non-golfer). I cued him in as to what to look for and take some picture for me.  He was totally crazed because nothing I described was there - there was absolutely nothing left of the hole - house or condos now I think

That painting in my book was done about 3 years after the hole was built. It is not very big.

Rare book dealer and friend Dick Donovan came back from a trip to England a nuber of years ago and while visiting a friend (or client) he saw the painting in this fella house.

Dick had been helping me try to find out Biarritz info for a couple years before, so he asked the owner if it would be alright for me to use a photo of it for my book. Obviously, yes was the answer.

When Dick returned he told me of the picture and wanted to know if I was interested in buying (it was not for sale, of course - he was kidding)

The owner paid over 50 lbs (quids - buckeroos - sheckles - or something) for it

incredible piece  ...

there were two other b & wt pieces (certainly by the same artist) that were publised in various other publications (Br Golf Illustrated was one)..... it's interesting because those were similar, viewed from the same spot, but a little different in content, so I guess the artist made a few "test-cases"
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on February 18, 2006, 03:19:18 AM
Tom

The routing appears to me to be that between 1945 to 1985 approx - but I will check when I can next get back there.  The schematic - perhaps George will confirm - but it's the same hand as the rest of the drawings in the book so I guess he's the artist.  There is an inconsitency though, the routing shows the shot accross a chasm at 90 yards but George's drawing shows it being wholly over land at that distance.  That is exactly what I would have expect so the only explanation I can suggest is the map may have interpolated a 'chasm' to keep the name alive?

George

When I was there last summer I had the photocopies of the pages from your book.  I got talking with the guy who organised the start times and ran the shop and got talking about the routing.  He was keen and interested told me about the photos in the changing room. (I believe what I called a photo above was probably a b/w copy of one of the sketches you refer to). He had grown up in the area so we got a map out and he pointed me to the spot where I took the first photo as the closest you can get to it.   I think the artist of the paintings brings the lighthouse forward towards the green for dramatic effect. As my photo shows the point it sits on extends several hundred yards from the tee area.  The post card was almost certainly taken from the lighthouse (phare) which was built circa 1830. The Chasm hole actually played across the corner of the point.  Your friend is right there is nothing today to indicate where the hole was (unless someone with better French than mine wants to start knocking on doors asking to see the back garden and explaining this strange obsession).

I left the photocopies with him - he said there were several members who would be very interested in them.  Hopefully it will inspire the club to research and display more about its history.
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Keith Durrant on February 18, 2006, 04:53:07 PM
Never mind "the Biarritz chasm"...what's that "chambre d'amour" hazard on the course plan? :-*
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: George_Bahto on February 18, 2006, 05:05:28 PM
"I think the artist of the paintings brings the lighthouse forward towards the green for dramatic effect"

probably did - it was originally about 175 over water from the high teebox

in 1895, can you imaging the fear factor on the tee-ball - hearts fluttered and butts, puckered, I'd bet

there were about 5 holes down in the canyon that looked very interesting also.

on the final hole in the canyon (coming out of the canyon) the players of the day complained they often could not find their shots -  the locals would steal the golf balls

interesting - the legend follows:

"Five holes were located down off a cliff into what was called the "Chambre d'Amour"; a deep sandy based barren area, The Chambre d'Amour area presented terrible lies until ten years later “when the additions of topsoil, sowing of seed" [apparently very little grass was present through the green ], and "sodding the greens with a peculiar ‘weed’ called ‘chiendent’ transformed the barren wasteland into an oasis of green”

Legend has it,  "Chambre d'Amour" acquired its name from an incident when two Basque lovers were caught by the incoming tide and drowned in a cave years before. (some things never change, huh?)

In order to extricate yourself from this canyon, a golfer had to play "an iron or a mashie shot" up a cliff 80 feet high, to the green. (gb: sounds high, but that the article said)

The 9th hole was the entrance to the Chambre.  It was a short par 4, 335 yards, from the top of the cliff; the drive had to be hit far and straight in order to land safely on the flats below.  

yada - yada ....   THEN IT WAS OUT OF THE VALLEY

Although the Chambre d’Amour section of the course (9 through 13) was a special section of Dunn’s course it was hole 3 (Chasm) where the real drama unfolded - - the origin of the Biarritz Hole

Hole #3 - “Chasm”     -   220 yards

Biarritz, France:   1888

played across a wing of the Bay of Biscay from an 80 foot cliff to a 50 foot cliff


Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on February 18, 2006, 05:23:03 PM
About the demise Excerpt from American Golfer:

The South of France Season

THE SOUTH OF FRANCE season is in
full swing, but, as was almost to be expected
in the circumstances which obtain,
it is more of a social character
than highly competitive. It has, however,
been enormously successful so
far, and despite the high cost of everything
in France and the increased
green fees on the courses on the Riviera
and in the Biarritz region there
has not been room enough on those
courses for all those who wished to
play upon them. Recently in these
pages some notes were made on the
present state of golfing things on the
Riviera. These may now be supplemented
by some others upon the present
season at the other group of winter
courses in southern France, those
in the aforesaid Biarritz region in the
corner of the Bay of Biscay, where,
I am informed, the American contingent
is very much in force. The conditions
as between the two groups
vary very much. Round about Biarritz
the temperature for one thing is
generally much lower, and there is
often much wind. Mr. Corrie who
was for so long secretary and was so
closely identified with the golf club
there has left and is home in England,
and Lt Col. Finlay reigns in his stead.
Thanks to him I am able to give a
fair indication of the position at Biarritz.
Of course most people have
some sort of an impression that the
golf here was carried on during the
war, for we have heard about it from
time to time, but not many have any
particulars, and it may not be realised
what a severe trial the club has had.
Like many others it has suffered from
greatly reduced income, and the increased
cost of golf stores and labor
and every kind of commodity used
for golf and the upkeep of such a
club and course. Essentially a winter
course, during the last few years owing
to the largely increased number
of Spanish and French players it has
been kept open all the year round. In
the really hot period of summer, July
to September, water is the difficulty
as the "terrain" is sandy or light soil.
As the ordinary water supply is inadequate
and the installation of a pipe
supply almost prohibitive at present
prices, it is practically impossible to
keep the greens in first-class order all
the time. However, despite the strain
of the war and all the other aggravating
conditions and circumstances no
man or woman should stay away from
Biarritz because of an idea that it is
not as good as it used to be. In recent
times there have been heavy rains and
work on the course has been conducted
with the utmost energy, so that
some weeks since it was believed that
the fairway and the greens would soon
be as good as ever they were. It was
then hoped and believed also that the
famous holes in the lower part of the
course in what is known as the
"Chambre d'Amour" would be in use
again this season. The greens have
been resown and promise well despite
the difficulties of the soil and the nuisance
of worms and other underground
pests. Even many who have
never been to Biarritz have some idea
of the strong features of this course.
It is, however, not a difficult one, and
the bunkers are largely natural. Besides
the main eighteen-holes course
which is reserved for males but on
which ladies may play twice a week
in certain conditions, there is a nineholes
course especially reserved for
ladies. The resident British professional
is J. Anderson and there are also
several French "professeurs" at hand
to give lessons, including E. Lafitte,
Gassiat, Bomboudiac and Maurice
Dauge, the man who once created
such a sensation with his enormous
driving. There are plenty of competitions
the busy time for these being Feb.
and March. The last summer season
was very successful, and it is believed
that the winter one will be also. Hotel
and other charges at Biarritz are high
as they are everywhere in France, but
then the favourable exchange has to
be considered, and, after all, the Biarritz
rates, all things considered, do
not appear to be unduly inflated, while
on the other hand there is reason to
believe that the hotel keepers are beginning
to appreciate the wisdom of
reducing their tariff as much as possible
in the hope of fastening on to
a new and regular set of customers.


Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Ian Andrew on February 18, 2006, 05:37:12 PM
Tony,

Thanks, I'm enjoying the thread.
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on February 18, 2006, 07:06:58 PM
From what I was reading, the course wasn't architectural perfection as some of us might like it to be, but it had its moments.   Uncle George's article has it conflicting as the stuff I have found has the hole playing from the lower point (as seen in the image) uphill to the green across the chasm.

View from the green of the Chasm Hole tee. I think one of the reasons why there just aren't a lot of good images of that particular green is simply because of the uphill nature of the green itself from the tee and from elsewhere near the hole, it was just too hard to photograph.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Biarritzteesite.jpg)

The 11th which played downhill from the chambre d'amour.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Biarritz11.jpg)

The 12th played back up over the chambre d'amour and was supposedly the most prominent and feared hole at Biarritz.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Biarritz12.jpg)

I did find some images of the actual Biarritz or Chasm Hole at the Ralph, and it wasn't nearly as glamorous as we would probably like them to be. It was for the most part a very rudimentary golf course with a lot of quirky challenges, especially from the tee. The Chasm Hole itself was--as described by one H. Wigham--as a strong running punch shot into the wind which required you to hit the front and run it on from there. It was the more sensible play, albeit a chance that you would have to hit through the huge swale while avoiding the hogsback nature of the first half of the green which could funnel you into the deep bunkers on both sides. If you tried to carry the deep swale--and failed, you would have an even tougher play from with-in the swale itself.

While the Chasm has become one of our cult icon favorites, it was actually the Cliff Hole that was most popular from the early days of that resort.
 However, architecturally speaking, the Chasm's strategy is probably the most defining architectural feature to come from the course, and that probably even existed there. We're talking back in the days when golf holes and their features were reputable, almost in a rock star sense. (a term stolen from the late but still great and highly entertaining Desmond Muirhead)
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Tom_Doak on February 18, 2006, 07:12:08 PM
So, George, I have a question:

Did the original hole in France have a multi-level green, or is Macdonald's idea for the green just a cross-section of the original golf hole, with the swale in the green being the chasm?
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on February 19, 2006, 03:21:07 AM

View from the green of the Chasm Hole tee. I think one of the reasons why there just aren't a lot of good images of that particular green is simply because of the uphill nature of the green itself from the tee and from elsewhere near the hole, it was just too hard to photograph.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Biarritzteesite.jpg)

Thanks guys great stuff.  I have several more vintage postcards I picked up but frustratingly the hole is always just off picture.  Biarritz at the time was an early aviation centre and I'm sure there must be some aerials somewhere.

Tommy there's somthing wrong about this picture.  Possibly it's been printed as a negative - if you look at the routing plan and George's painting above it clearly shows which side the open sea is on.  Also St Jean de Luz is about 5 miles to the south of Biarritz and the course is on the North side of town.
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on February 19, 2006, 03:58:02 AM
Tony,
The image is O.K. I think you might be turning yourself around a bit, which is an easy thing to do given the complexity of this particular site. Also, Uncle George's greensite from the vertical drawing he used from Evangelists of Golf looks to be somewhat conflicting with the routing layout map that you have posted. So that could be confusing things a bit.

This image is take from the front left of the Chasm green looking back towards the tee. In fact, it may be somewhat way left of it, right next to the 2nd fairway. (according to the layout map) So, as it says that a pull left would put the ball among these rocks, the image is showing the ground just short left of the hole looking back towards the tee.

British Golf Links (last page of the Biarritz chapter) also has an image of the hole from the green looking towards the tee from what would probably be the front right--because once again, I think the greensite, being elevated above the teeing ground made it close to impossible to get a good image of the green, which was somewhat sizable and simply out of view with all of its intricacies.
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on February 19, 2006, 04:44:04 AM
Thanks Tommy

For the picture to work it would have to be the later position because the background is all sea (then the comments about the pulled shot also make sense).  If you get a chance I'd love to see the other picture even if as you say it only reveals a little.

A period aerial would be the answer.

Incidentally the new club house (shown on the back to the card) and the majority of holes are today are on what was the ladies area in the above map.  The modern hotel shown is built on the area referred to as "Chambre d'Amour"; and although I've never seen it the local guide books all have photo's of the cave where the tragic event is supposed to have happened.

Tony

Looking at multimap today the nearest location I can get for it is Lat: 43:29:25N (43.4904) Lon: 1:33:15W (-1.5541)

Does anyone know of digital mapping service for continental Europe that has satelite images?

Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: George_Bahto on February 19, 2006, 12:04:58 PM
Tom Doak: I've been trying to get some indication of what the green was like for a long time but have had no success (yet). I think you and I talked about it years ago.

I "go down this road" about the  greens Macdonald and Raynor built:

As I stated in my book, early on the hole was often called the "Valley of Sin" hole - also called Macdonald's Folly.

Right or wrong, I think CBM did one of his "composite" holes when he built Biarritz, combining the tee-ball from Chasm and using the Valley of Sin concept from St. Andrews 18.

Think about the green area when it was first built; an extremely long hole from a very high tee, certainly a bounding ball on firm ground after you made the carry, so the approach area had to be fairly long, before you got to the green (certainly a single-green).  Macdonald always described the approach to the green as having a hog’s-back feature. Most of these hog’s-back features were removed .... usually they were angled ridges built in the first section of what we now talk of as “double-green.”  Very few remain (I have trouble even recalling any beside the great example I have on the Knoll’s 13th). I do have a set of Charles Banks green blueprint of a Biarritz green that clearly shows these and features of the green area (Oneck course) .

The angled ridges (long mounds about 10 inches high) were designed to shunt you off into the long strip bunkers if you landed too far off the centerline. I think it would be safe to assume there was uneven ground on the original Biarritz green approach area - unless he just wanted to be at his usual diabolical self.

The Bay of Biscay carry was simulated when he built the short cross bunker (usually taken out) - these were not more that the requisite 160-175 yds off the tee (there was only one back tee on  almost all the holes they built).

My opinion and I can only hope someone would, or could, come up with info on the original Chasm hole green config.

Since there seems to be no info on the original green and its bunkering, he may have used the strip bunkering to represent; the cliffs on the right and what other bad thing may have been on the left ............. certainly nothing like that at 18-St Andrews, to contain (early Rees J ?) bounding balls

When Donovan first told me I had an 8 X 10 glossy of the painting coming to me, I was hoping it would show something of the green.    NOT

(the original Biarritz course, from what I have read about it, sounded like not much more that a thinly grassed cow pasture)

Tommy N: what was the date of that article?
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on February 19, 2006, 01:07:45 PM
Uncle George,
I'll send you the entire article(s) here in a bit.

Also, I actually had these Biarritz green images all set-up on my scanner especially for you when Geoff came-up and had more stuff to scan and we were short on time. (as it was late in the day) I will get them at the next visit for sure.

Tony,
A period aerial is probably not going to exist, but stranger things have been found, that's for sure!

Unfortunately I don't thave the time to scan the image in BGL. But will try to get to it in the next few days.
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Yannick Pilon on February 20, 2006, 09:08:14 PM
George,

Thanks for your reply to Tom Doak's question.  Very interesting.

But that brings me to my question: what makes Macdonald's  Biarritz such a great hole? I have never played one myself but I have always wondered about what makes this concept so great?  Is it just the perticular and odd shape/ondulation of the green, or is there a strategy involved that I just don't grasp?

Other question.  Although my idea of the concept is a deep linear green bisected by a deep swale or chasm, I have read in a couple of books and magazines that the Biarritz hole often has that first part of green area (before the swale) maintained as fairway.  Which one of these two options is more representative of Macdonald's originals?

Thanks for the input.  This is a very interesting thread....
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Sean_Tully on February 23, 2006, 08:59:18 PM
Piling on at this point...

Kicking the tires on SEGL I came across a nice little piece on the course. Sme of this may be common knowledge for some but I always put it out there as you never know.

1888 9 holes
1892 18 holes

Some time later another nine holes was built and reserved exclusively.

Gives some insight into its early years of the course and some names of people and organizations that were involved.

Picture of Clubhouse and golfers.

Golf Illustrated February 1927 page 42
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: George_Bahto on February 24, 2006, 12:31:39 AM
Yannick Pilon (replied)Thanks for your reply to Tom Doak's question. Very interesting.

But that brings me to my question: what makes Macdonald's Biarritz such a great hole? I have never played one myself but I have always wondered about what makes this concept so great? Is it just the perticular and odd shape/ondulation of the green, or is there a strategy involved that I just don't grasp?

Other question. Although my idea of the concept is a deep linear green bisected by a deep swale or chasm, I have read in a couple of books and magazines that the Biarritz hole often has that first part of green area (before the swale) maintained as fairway. Which one of these two options is more representative of Macdonald's originals?

Thanks for the input. This is a very interesting thread....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yannick,

Personally I don’t think I consider a Biarritz a “great” hole at all  -  I would consider it more of an “interesting” concept for a hole and if set in an interesting site, very picturesque.

I think it was overly long for its day and certainly perhaps way too hard.

I have one on my home course and it is the purest of the remaining Biarritz’s and the falloffs on either side are very severe. I’ve been a member there for over 30 years and have played it countless times. We have a great green with the full compliment of original features and, to me, on this particular hole, the story is the putting surface not the tee-ball. Early on, until I explained the concept of the hole and where it came from, most of the members hated the hole (even from the middle tees) - many of them hate it today ‘cause the can’t par it (like, so what?)

These hole were original built with a single tee with yardage varying from 210 to 245 (average 235 on the old scorecards)

Macdonald had this penchant for having the varied lengths of par-3s on his courses, featuring: a short iron, a middle iron, a long iron and the longest club, played to the beastly Biarritz.

In the teens and 20's the hole was unreachable unless you bounded thru the swale and on to the green (rear section) (hopefully). These holes are difficult today with our modern equipment - imagine playing it with a wooden shaft and perhaps even a gutty ball.

To replicate the original difficulty in today’s world, what would you have for appropriate yardage?     280 to 300 yards (figuring you can’t reach the green on the fly).

Biarritz holes were designed for a single green (we’ve been thru this a ga-zillion times before) and the front sections were later converted into putting surface on many clubs, were an evolution. When I first began my research I think there were only 2 fully Biarritz holes with full putting surface (double-green, if you will). Yale was one - the other was either Chicago or Mid Ocean, probably Chicago.

I personably liked the concept of a full double green and began telling clubs about it and the idea spread quickly and look at where we are today - nearly half are stunning double-green versions (lots of bragging rights for clubs on this hole).

Macdonald described the hole as a green fronted by a swale the a hog’s back approach (that would be the front section). There is supposed to be two deflection spines in the front section that could deflect you off into the long, side strip bunkers - this is the way the holes were all drawn so I must presume this is the way there were built. They almost always had a horseshoe-type feature (at least, usually more) on the putting surface, most of which have been removed one way or another, over the years.
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Yannick Pilon on February 24, 2006, 04:20:18 PM
Thanks George, great explanation!

By the way, I'm in the middle of The Evangelist of Golf.  It is a great book that I recommend to anybody interested in golf course architecture.

Can't wait for your next books.  Anything along the way?

Yannick
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: George_Bahto on February 24, 2006, 11:09:22 PM
thanks Yannick

yes I'm "supposed" to be working on the follow-up, the story of Seth Raynor and Charles Bank, who later became his partner, their detailed bios and reviews and stories of all the courses they built - in some cases the stores are more interesting that the courses.

The Evangelist of Golf, aside from the story of Macdonald, only encompasses the courses he is credited for being  associated with.

The publisher originally wanted all this in one book but it would have been either too huge or the text and graphics would have to have been cut dramatically - I rebelled, and here we are.

.........  so, much of the "second book" is already done but I've been busy with a lot of other projects and the "Raynor” book has not been worked on for quite a while

I should finish it and let it augment the first book

Most of the time I have this choice to make:   would I rather write or work on golf course restorations and such

You might want to answer that one for me - -  :P

 .........  and besides, I need Gib P to get back into action again - but that’s just another excuse

we'll get it done
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Tom_Doak on February 25, 2006, 12:25:18 AM
George B:  When I was going around the country in the early 1980's, the only "full-length" Biarritz greens were at Yale and at St. Louis CC.  

Chicago Golf's Biarritz wasn't and still isn't the full length; and though I didn't see Mid Ocean until 1988 I don't think it was anytime in recent memory, either.
Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: George_Bahto on February 25, 2006, 04:39:10 PM
Tom thanks for your input

I didn't get to St Louis until the mid 90s

I do have an old photo of the Biarritz at Mid Ocean that might predate the 80's that looks as though it was full green but who knows - obviously, you didn't get any info on that when you were working there

It really doesn't matter who or where, my main point is that they were not really designed as full putting surface in the original concept, although I like these later versions better for the dart-board golf that is played today

If, today, they were unreachable on the fly (at whatever length that may be) and the ground was kept firm, I think it would be a "funner" golf hole
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on June 04, 2008, 06:21:42 AM
Tony, Anyone,

I am currently planning next year's trip to Biarritz... Three rounds so was planning Chiberta, Hossegor and Seignosse... Sound like the right choices?

But was looking at the Biarritz le Phare website where there appears to be a little bit of history of the course and a very small picture of the Chasm hole that hasn't been posted in this thread... The photo seems to support the angle that the hole was played from low to high...

http://www.golfbiarritz.com/uk/01_presentation/presentation.php

Title: Re:The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on June 04, 2008, 08:17:13 AM
Tom thanks for your input

I didn't get to St Louis until the mid 90s


Saint Louis CC had a full-length Biarritz as of the late 1960's.  Don't know when they started that, though. 
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Pete_Pittock on June 09, 2008, 06:48:40 PM
Ally,
Nosed through the upcoming auction at Old Golf Auctions http://www.oldgolfauctions.com/oga/
and they have a Biarritz club history up for sale. It may be of some help.
The current home page of the website still has the previous auction, but the new one starts "next weekend". Probably about 300 items in according to the email announcement.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 03, 2013, 03:47:17 PM
In reading the latest Biarritz thread, I looked again at this older Biarritz thread.  I was taken by the old routing map and thought I'd see how it overlaid on the current aerial.  Surprisingly some of the roads mapped exactly to the current roads.  Other roads, of course, NLE.  So, here is Tony's routing map with the contrast goosed to make it more readable.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzOldLinksMap.jpg~original)


Then, here is the course mapped from the routing onto the current Google Earth aerial.  For the holes that I checked, the yardages indicated on the routing are pretty much the same as they are from the Google aerial.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzOldRoutingcopy.jpg~original)


It puts where the Biarritz hole, hole 3,  was in the context of the coastline.  Looks also like the old holes 10, 17 and 18 had greens near where there are greens  on the present routing.

I also transcribed the tee locations from George's sketch to the Bing aerial.  If the green was in the same place, it seems obvious that the 220 yard tee was probably not all carry across the chasm as depicted in the paintings or on George's sketch.  It also appears that the Bay of Biscay doesn't cut in quite so squarely as indicated in the sketch.

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritzholeplan8.jpg)


(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzhistoricaltees.jpg~original)


Here's a modern picture from the lighthouse with an arrow indicating where the green likely was.  The house in the foreground is probably the same house as the one in the old picture previously posted.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzModernPicFromLighthouse.jpg~original)


(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritz/BiarritxbW1.jpg)


Here's a modern picture from where the old 220 yard tee likely was.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzfrom220Tee.jpg~original)


And finally, here is a modern picture of what the cliff face looks like on the par 3 14th coming out of the Chambre D'Amour.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzcomingoutofchambredamour.jpg~original)


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 03, 2013, 09:33:13 PM
Bryan,

I think the green was to the left of the red circle in the modern photo, as the hole indicates an extensive area short of the green, presumably, fairway.

That would alter the location of the tee somewhat.

It would also seem unlikely that the green would be right on the edge of the cliff.

But, those are nice photo interpretations

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 04, 2013, 05:07:31 AM
Bryan, are you sure the green was where you place it in the photo?  I ask because it doesn't look like there's anywhere near enough room for the green and approach we see in George's drawing.  But if you put the tee where you have the green, and hit across the next inlet, it looks like there is plenty of room.  

Overall, George's drawing looks different from the land forms I see in the photo.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 04, 2013, 12:15:56 PM
Did we (Tom MacWood most likely?) not work out somewhere that the chasm hole (3rd) was not responsible for the green inspiration which may have come from the 12th down in the chamber d'amour?

i.e. MacDonald's concept was a mix of two holes...

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 04, 2013, 01:38:09 PM
Patrick,

Tony's map overlaid very well on the Google aerial so to the extent that the routing map is accurate that's where the green was, although I have no other proof.  I'm not sure George's sketch is to scale.  It looks like a sketch rather than a scaled engineering drawing.  It's also possible the cliffs have eroded in a century.

Jim,

I'm not sure, but the routing map overlaid very well, so I'm inclined to go with the location shown. If it was on the next promontory it would be tough to find a 220 yard  tee.

Ally,

I must have missed the previous thread.  I'll have to look for it when I get home.


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on December 04, 2013, 02:05:20 PM
Outstanding work Brian, I’m most impressed.  Thank you.

My original photo was taken from the other side of the fence you show.


I can only add one bit of speculation.  The postcard is approx. a century old as is the painting, my  photo is from 2005 and your google earth image is from the last couple of years.  Each show evidence of rockfall from the back of the green.  This is the famously stormy Bay of Biscay. My gut feeling is that land has been lost from the back of the green and in fact it's probable the land the green sat on, no longer exists.   If you look at where holes played on the lower level, it’s unlikely that was grassed a century ago. Perhaps the sea has encroached there as well? Having said that when I make it back I look forward to knocking on the door of that house with all this in my hands. Stranger discoveries have been made.


Ally your memory is correct in that there was another thread but I think the ideas you recall were put forward by David Moriarty.


Tommy N if you see this thread, I’ve always thought you were of the opinion that the green was the other way and that those players in the painting are putting out and not teeing off?  Did you ever find that article?
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 04, 2013, 02:33:17 PM
Bryan,

One of the things that leads me to believe that the green was further left is the inherent danger associated with the green being right on the edge of the cliff.  It would be far too easy for a golfer stepping back to line up a putt, to fall down that cliff, resulting in a fatality.

What also leads me to believe that the green was further left is the position of the lighthouse in the painting of the golfers playing the Biarritz.  The lighthouse is to the right of the green.

In addition, if the painting is a correct representation of the hole, it would seem that the second gorge, the one behind the red circle you represented as the green, would be where the hole was played over, with the tee being behind the red circle and the green being on the other side of the gorge.

Take a look at the painting on page 148 in "The Evangelist of Golf" and let me know your thought.

The angle you portray at 220 doesn't match up with the terrain.
But, it does if play was over the second gorge/chasm.

You thoughts
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Dónal Ó Ceallaigh on December 04, 2013, 04:25:42 PM
Sorry for this sidetrack, but it's interesting to note that this was the residence of Lord Dudley, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, who was also an avid golfer. I had come across this interesting character when doing some research on golf in Donegal. A fellow by the name of Gallagher - who held the course record in Portsalon - accompanied Lord Dudley to Australia when he became Governor General of Australia. Gallagher was a professional and may have set himself up in Melbourne. There's an interesting article on the Irish Golfing Archive on a match the Lord organised in Dublin in 1903.

http://www.irishgolfarchive.com/Events/Dudley's%20Party.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Humble_Ward,_2nd_Earl_of_Dudley

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritz/BiarritxbW1.jpg)

This picture appears to have been captured during his Lieutenantship between 1902 and 1905.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 04, 2013, 08:04:08 PM
Tony,

Agreed that there likely has been some fair erosion over the last century.

Re whether the players are putting out or teeing off, I'd go with teeing off.  In the picture there are two people in the foreground walking to the left - presumably to the green - and one person on the tee(?) who seems to be pointing to the left - presumably toward the green.  If the hole was reversed and it was the green then it wouldn't fit witht the routing map you photographed.  It would be playing away from where the 4th tee was.  But, perhaps there was a different routing in the 1890's when that photo and painting were made.

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritz/Biarritzpic.jpg)



Patrick,

It doesn't seem that safety on the cliff was that pressing a concern in those days.  In the picture above, whether it's tee or green, the people are evidently playing on the edge of the cliff.

The position of the lighthouse in the picture is odd.  It looks to be at right angles to the line of play.  I don't see any land form there that could create that angle.  George's sketch and the routing map both seem to present the green as being on a foot shaped promontory jutting into the bay.  It seems to me that the first promontory fits that description better, although it appears the toes of the foot have fallen off.

If the green was on the second promontory and the hole was 220 yards, then either the tee was in the first chasm or on the very edge.  If on the very edge then two chasms would have had to be carried.  I haven't heard anybody describe it as a two chasm carry.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 04, 2013, 08:22:18 PM
To add clarity or maybe just more mystery here are some more snippets that I found in an 1897 book description of the course.

First the 1897 version of the picture that was posted above.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmholephotofrom1897.jpg~original)


Second, a description of "alterations" to the chasm hole.  Not sure what to make of the description, especially as it relates to the 14th hole.  Anybody want to try to interpret it.  The hole is described as being only 100 yards, but with cliffs short and long.  No mention of any swales, or runup areas around the green, just cliffs short and long.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmholedescriptionfrom1897.jpg~original)


And, thirdly, a picture of the hole.  From the caption I would interpret it to be a picture from the green towards the tee.  No lighthouse in the background suggest to me that it is looking back at the tee.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmteehole3fromgreen.jpg~original)


Finally, a modern picture looking toward the 11th green site which mimics Tommy's old picture.  According to ht erouting map the 3rd tee would be on top of the cliff in the left foreground.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritz11thholegreensitemodernpicture.jpg~original)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Biarritz11.jpg)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 04, 2013, 10:40:40 PM
Bryan,

It would be helpful if you could introduce the compass points on the photos you've posted.

That could help us recreate the angle of the view from the early photo/painting and relate it to the google earth images.

George Bahto's rendering illustrates flanking bunkers at the green.
Due to the nature of the precipice, that would make sense to me.
I don't think they were as cavalier about instant death with a mis-step as you are.

In addition, George's rendering may or may not be a precise depiction of the hole.

In any event, the early photo/painting seems to reflect a more daunting carry.

I can also understand placing the tee in relatively close proximity to the cliff, more so than a putting surface since the golfer is restricted or rather, forced to playing within the tee markers, whereas, once he plays away, his ball is free to roam anywhere.

Anyone who's played the 8th at Pebble Beach understands the inherent danger of placing a putting green on the edge of a cliff, it's an accident waiting to happen.

As to the description, the photos/painting seem to contradict it, other than the tee being described as being on the precipice of the cliff.

I think this is a very interesting topic and I think, with more info, we can probably site the green reasonably well.

It would seem, from the description that the green sat between the two chasms.

I just believe that it sat further to the left of the red circle
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 05, 2013, 12:08:23 AM
Tony,

Re cliff erosion, see the pic below.  It must have made a racket when those pieces of the erstwhile green site broke away.  It looks recent.  No doubt there has been other erosion over the years.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmhole3clifferosion.jpg~original)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 05, 2013, 12:30:13 AM
Patrick,

Sounds too much like work to put compass points on all the pics.  Suffice to say the coast line of the Chambre d'Amour runs more or less NNE while the 3rd hole runs a little bit south of due west.  The others should be obvious if you want to work off those directions.  In the erosion picture above the top is north, more or less.

I didn't mean to say they were cavalier about the danger.  I suppose they expected golfers to exercise some caution.  It's safe to say that even today there are golf courses with precipitous cliffs that can be dangerous  - Pacific Dunes #4 and #13 and the 14th at Mahogany Run come to mind.

Agreed about George's sketch.

No doubt the carry was daunting from a depth of chasm point of view, even if the carry was only 100 yards.

Here is another picture of the erosion with a green superimposed.  It is about 30 yards deep and 20 yards wide.  The line of play is from the right. From the edge of the cliff (pre-erosion) to the edge of the front driveway is about 60 yards, so there isn't a whole lot of room to move it inland and still keep a carry over the chasm.  And, there was a road restricting movement inland, although the routing shows they had no problem crossing roads or even having holes cross over each other.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmhole3greensited-1.jpg~original)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 05, 2013, 03:15:18 AM
And, one more reference to the chasm hole in an article from 1932 about the Cavalier Golf and Yacht Club designed by Charles Banks which states:

Quote
Number five, for instance, is like the famous number one hole at Biarritz

Well, not surprisingly,today it looks like the prototypical CBM Biarritz with no chasm.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/biarritzatCavaliergolfclub11-1932.jpg~original)


And, a further article written by Willie Dunn in 1934 who describes the hole that he built as being 225 yards long and no mention of swales.  By the time of the routing plan above it was down to 90 yards.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzchasmholeWillieDunndescription09-1934.jpg~original)



Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 05, 2013, 05:31:53 PM
Bryan,

Based upon an almost universal understanding of a Biarritz hole, AND, George's schematic, I think you've placed the front edge of the green too close to the cliff.

I would think that the green would be recessed, further into the plateau.

In addition, the description mentioned the peril of hitting too long and going into the far chasm.

Where you've positioned the green would seem to eliminate that possibility.

Thus, recessing the green would create the fronting runup area and bring the back chasm into play, as described in the article you posted.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmhole3greensited-1.jpg~original)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Nigel Islam on December 05, 2013, 10:54:03 PM
And people complain about 17 at Sawgrass!
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Cristian on December 06, 2013, 05:08:38 AM
I first thought like so many that the Tee would have been where the green site is pictured. However it seems illogical that a stick routing at the time would get it so wrong. The stick routing clearly depicts the most northern chasm.

Looking at the stick routing however a large chunk of elbow shaped rock used to jut out into the sea providing room for the green site. It is actually where some of the rocks of recent erosion are visible on the beach/in the sea.

Erosion therefore seems to be the explanation for the discrepancy between the pictures and present areal photo's.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 06, 2013, 07:12:00 PM
Cristian,

Let's not also forget that stick routings aren't often accurate depictions of the "as built"

Hence, while attaching credibility to the stick routing, it's not 100 % credible in terms of the "as built"
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 07, 2013, 02:30:49 AM
Patrick,

If by recessed you mean moved further back to the back side of the green in the picture, that would be difficult today, since the "cliff" on that side starts just beyond where I put the green.  A century ago there was probably more plateau there that has eroded now.  Both the stick diagram and George's sketch seem to indicate that.  So, moving the green back to the left in the picture to create more of a landing area in front, as in George's sketch, makes sense to me.


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 07, 2013, 02:37:39 AM
Patrick,

If by recessed you mean moved further back to the back side of the green in the picture, that would be difficult today, since the "cliff" on that side starts just beyond where I put the green.  A century ago there was probably more plateau there that has eroded now.  Both the stick diagram and George's sketch seem to indicate that.  

So, moving the green back to the left in the picture to create more of a landing area in front, as in George's sketch, makes sense to me.


Bryan,

That was one of my original points.

It's a shame that such a marvelous hole has been lost forever.

In what year was the hole lost ?

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 07, 2013, 02:44:49 AM
A couple of years ago David Moriarty posted the following:

Quote
Here is a photo of the Chasm green from December 8, 1899, Golf Illustrated Article by Horace Hutchinson.  Unfortunately, the Chasm Hole had already been seriously compromised.  The green shown in the photo had previously been the approximate location of the tee with the hole playing over the chasm to the left of the photo.  From the article:

"The Chasm Hole is not quite as it used to be.  It used to mean a drive off from a spot near where the putter in the second illustration is addressing his ball, and the hole lay at the other side of the yawning golf which may be understood to beyond the present green.  As things are to-day that putter has approached the green with an iron shot over another and a shorter chasm.  The penalties of a foozled shot are no less heavy that they used to be, but the iron will now reach the hole which the driver would seldom reach before."

One cannot see all ground to the front of the green, but there does not appear to be a swale either on or before the green in this photo.  And this was 1899, well before CBM and HJW toured the hole in 1906.  (Query whether CBM had seen it before then.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz1899Chasm.jpg?t=1321905948)

 


Notice the angle of the green to the lighthouse in the background.  Now, compare that to this picture from Hutchinson in 1897, two years earlier.  Could the green in the 1899 picture be in the foreground of the 1897 picture.  Did the hole get flipped and shortened between 1897 and 1899?  We have Willie Dunn saying the hole was 225 yards when he was building it in 1889 and the article above as well as the routing map suggesting it was 90-100 yards in1897 and 1899.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmholephotofrom1897.jpg~original)


The 1897 article also talks about the flip.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmholedescriptionfrom1897.jpg~original)


Not quite sure what the 14th hole reference is about.  

Need to spend some time looking at the aerials to try to figure out how the 225 yard hole could be flipped to a 100 yard hole over a shorter chasm.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 07, 2013, 04:14:43 AM
Bryan, in your reply #36, you posted a bunch of images.  The fourth image in that post shows 3 routings for the chasm hole.  Based on this info in your last post, do you still think the original chasm green was where you put it in that photo?  Or does this information suggest the tee was actually where you put the green, and golfers hit across the next inlet?  

Curious to know why the course changed such a great, famous hole.  In a way, it would be like CPC moving the tee on #16 way to the left, eliminating the shot over the ocean, and leaving a 125 yard pitching wedge instead. 
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 07, 2013, 10:42:43 AM
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritzholeplan8.jpg)

Bryan,

It's easier to understand how the hole could be flipped and shortened by examining George's schematic.

I would take exception to the statement regarding the ability to discern the configuration of the green.

This also makes inserting the compass points more relevant on the aerials as it would enable us to align the angles and determine locations more accurately
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 08, 2013, 11:29:58 AM
Jim,

If you mean the aerial below, I created that based on George's sketch.  I am perplexed by the sketch now because George has the hole at 160 yards in 1897 and 90 yards the 1960's, while the article from Hutchinson in 1897 has the hole at 100 yards, as does the routing map posted earlier.  I have not yet had a chance to think further on how these pieces of information go together to give a rational explanation.  Stay tuned.

I suppose the obvious reason to move it was that a 225 yard forced carry over a chasm was probably just way too hard for resort players in the 1890's.

_____________________________


Patrick,

Yes, I agree that it is easy to see how the flip would work in the sketch.  The sketch does suggest that there was NO flip - that the green stayed in one place and the tee moved over the decades.  I'd also like to find the landform that matches up to the sketch and the routing map and the various descriptions.

I'm not sure what you're taking exception to in your second statement.

Are you looking for compass points on the aerials or on the various photos? For the aerials, the compass points are easy to discern, just go to Google Earth and look.  As for the pictures, I don't believe anyone could put compass points on those.  If they could, then aligning them on the lighthouse would be easy.  But, perhaps I don't understand what you are trying to do.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzhistoricaltees.jpg~original)


(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/Muldoon3/Biarritzholeplan8.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on December 08, 2013, 11:37:19 AM
I hope to do a timeline, which might provide clarity.


I do think George’s diagram is the best interpretation of what we know. However I've long felt that a green with a swale in the middle of it, simply wouldn't work from all 3 angles. 


Brian can you post the link to David's other thread as I believe there was more.  (Can't find it using the search engine Ran).
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 08, 2013, 11:46:24 AM
Tony,

Here's the link.  It started as a North Berwick thread and morphed into a Biarritz on the second page.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50245.0.html (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50245.0.html)

I think David argued there that the model for the Biarritz green was the 12th hole at Biarritz and not the chasm hole, #3.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 08, 2013, 01:28:36 PM
Bryan,

I know how to access Google earth, I don't know how to overlay the directional on the aerials, that's why I asked you to add them.

My disagreement was with David Moriarty's comment.

The hole might have measured 225, but the carry was significantly shorter.

In the 1890's a 200 yard carry would have been near impossible even with an elevation disparity between tee and green, ala Yale.
In addition, heavy ocean air and sea breezes would make it even more difficult.

Reversing the hole might have made sense if the prevailing wind assisted the tee shot

Tony,

Altering the green would be difficult, moving a tee, simple, hence I don't think the uncomfortable angle was a primary consideration until after the tees were moved and play at those angles proved difficult.   That difficulty may have led to the flipping of the hole.

As magnificent as the hole would be today, it had to be impossible in the1890's and that's what I think led to it's demise, unless of course Marion Hollins was vacationing nearby  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 08, 2013, 02:40:48 PM
Bryan, if George's diagram is at all accurate, I don't see how that green/approach could possibly fit on the little finger of land that juts out in your picture.  In the picture, there's only room for a green and nothing else.  In George's diagram, the green is long, flanked by two much longer bunkers.  A considerable approach of land sits between the cliff and the front of the green.  

In your photo, the 220 yard hole is nearly all carry.  Probably over 200 yards.  There's no place to miss, short or right.  No way to run the ball on to the green.  Would require a high 200+ yard carry that lands soft and stops fast.  As Patrick points out, probably an impossible shot in 1889.  

Maybe some of the cliff fell off into the sea, which would move the original 220 yard tee forward and the green back.  But could 50 or 60 yards of it do that?  Does the historical record reflect that?  

Now say they actually teed from the spot where you have the green, and drove across the next inlet.  That much more closely matches George's diagram.  There's plenty of room for a long green, and a substantial approach.  The green can run parallel to the ocean, as George says.  The carry is much more manageable, maybe in the 150 yard range.  

It seems to me like a better fit.  On top of which, if I understand Hutchinson, that is indeed how the layout went.  

Eager to hear your thoughts.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 09, 2013, 04:44:50 AM
Assuming George's sketch is to scale, I placed it on that promontory and it does fit.  Probably a better fit if the back side of the plateau was still level in the 1890's and hadn't fallen into the sea.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmhole3Bahtogreensited.jpg~original)


After rereading the various articles, it seems clear that the various incarnations of the hole couldn't have been to the same green, as depicted in George's sketch.  The two contemporaneous articles indicate that the second iteration green was moved to where the tee for the first iteration was.  I am confidant that the routing map was post the second iteration and reflects the Chasm hole location in the routing.  The routing map (and the roads on it) match perfectly to the current aerial, so I'm reasonably confidant that where I placed it on the aerial is reflective of where it was in the late 90's and early 00's.

The tee for the first iteration hole was on that same promontory as the second iteration green, only further out on the point according to the picture. For the hole to be 225 yards as Willie Dunn described, it must have have gone out towards the lighthouse over the next chasm.  The carry was not so daunting, being nowhere near 200 yards.  That location of the hole makes sense since the 4th tee was closer to where the first iteration green was.

And, Patrick. this image is looking more or less SSE, if that helps you align it.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzChasmHolewith100yardand225yardversion2onaerial.jpg~original)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on December 09, 2013, 04:56:36 AM
Bryan more interesting work.


One more thing we need to consider.   Tees and next greens tended to be adjacent, far more so than today.  For that not to be so this was the first 'signature' hole :D
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 09, 2013, 05:11:14 AM
Tony, but if you look at the routing drawings/photos on page two, Biarritz had lots of long green-to-tee walks.  3rd green to 4th tee was especially long: nearly as long as the entire 2nd hole.  

I think if the 3rd tee actually was where the green is in those images:

a) The walk from 2nd green to 3rd tee was less than quite a few other tee-to-green walks at the course;

b) The 4th tee was closer to the chasm green (shorter walk) than is in the images.  

3 distinct crossing holes... a shot across an 80 foot deep ocean chasm... a green and fairway on the beach... and some unusually long green-to-tee walks.  Biarritz really was a different design.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 09, 2013, 07:00:20 AM


Bryan,

Here's an earlier post I made where I suggested two things.
That the green was further left than originally depicted in the red circle and
that the hole played over the second gorge.

Your photo below seems to confirm both


Bryan,

One of the things that leads me to believe that the green was further left is the inherent danger associated with the green being right on the edge of the cliff.  It would be far too easy for a golfer stepping back to line up a putt, to fall down that cliff, resulting in a fatality.

What also leads me to believe that the green was further left is the position of the lighthouse in the painting of the golfers playing the Biarritz.  The lighthouse is to the right of the green.

In addition, if the painting is a correct representation of the hole, it would seem that the second gorge, the one behind the red circle you represented as the green, would be where the hole was played over, with the tee being behind the red circle and the green being on the other side of the gorge.[/color][/size]

Take a look at the painting on page 148 in "The Evangelist of Golf" and let me know your thought.

The angle you portray at 220 doesn't match up with the terrain.
But, it does if play was over the second gorge/chasm.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzChasmHolewith100yardand225yardversion2onaerial.jpg~original)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 09, 2013, 12:49:32 PM
Jim,

Following is an article from 1916 about Arnaud Massy, a famous golfer of the area at the time.  It goes a lot beyond calling Biarritz a "different design".  Also, it has an early use of the term "architecture" as related to golf courses.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritz1916architecturearticle.jpg~original)


______________________________________


Patrick,

Your brilliance was never in doubt.  Remember that pride goeth before the fall.   ;) ;D




Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 09, 2013, 02:38:34 PM
Bryan,

Just pointing out that my position, which some seemed to dismiss, had a good degree of merit.

Interesting article.

Now I'm wondering if it wasn't the direction of the wind in combination with the awkward angle of attack from the shorter tees that resulted in the flipping of the hole.

What was the date it was flipped and is there any indication as to why it was flipped ?

Yale, today, remains a very difficult challenge, and Yale plays from a highly elevated tee to a lower greens and is without strong seaside winds buffeting the hole.  

In the 1890's and 1900's this had to be one of the hardest holes on the planet.

Therefore I wonder why more wasn't written about it.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 09, 2013, 03:51:17 PM
Pat, I get the sense a fair amount was written about the chasm hole. The passage Bryan copied in his last post calls it "the celebrated cliff hole."  Hutchinson wrote about it in 1899 in Golf Illustrated, and so did Dunn in 1934, calling it "the famous chasm hole."  So it got some publicity.  Maybe the problem is that only a a little of that survives.  

btw, since you're keeping tabs, I too suggested the original tee used to be where stick routing map had placed the green -- before, I believe, you did.   :D
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 09, 2013, 05:56:10 PM
George Bahto indicates that the original tee was at 80' and that the green was at 50', making it more like Yale's 9th.

If so, then flipping it, such that the tee is lower than the green, puzzles me, unless the tee was moved further inland to a spot with equivalent elevation.

Jim, yes, you did allude to the 2nd gorge and thus deserve co-credit. ;D
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 10, 2013, 05:00:41 AM
Jim,

I'll add you to the brilliant mind category too.  You and Mucci together in that category may not be what you want to achieve.   ;D

For clarity, the famous "cliff" hole was the 14th coming up out of the Chambre d'Amour.  The famous "chasm" hole was the 3rd, across the chasm.  Two different holes that are famous on a course that was almost absurd, peculiar and which ought to be condemned, at least in the view of one contemporaneous writer/critic.  Perhaps we'd call them signature holes today.

_________________________________


Patrick,

The original hole was built in 1888-89 and it looks like it was altered around 1897, so the original only lasted a decade or so.  Both holes appear to go in the same direction so I doubt that wind direction was a factor.  Most likely it was just a distance issue.  Not sure what you mean by the awkward angle of attack.  Both versions of the hole appear to be similar in angle of attack.  Are you using "flipping" loosely?  The hole doesn't appear to have been flipped in the sense of reversing direction.

As Jim noted, a fair bit has been written about it over the years.

Google Earth indicates that the elevation of the tee and green of the original hole were about 100 and 110 feet respectively, so slightly uphill.   The second iteration tee and green elevations were about 115 and 100 feet respectively, so slightly downhill.

Again, I'm not sure what you mean by flipping in this context.

I don't know the sources for George's sketch, but it doesn't seem to reflect the teeing grounds and greens of the original hole or its altered second iteration around 1897.  I suppose it's possible that there was another 220 yard and 160 yard tee post 1897 and even an inland 90 yard tee in the 1960's, but they don't seem to correlate to what was there from 1889 to say 1900.  If George looks in on this thread, maybe he could provide some comment.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 10, 2013, 07:52:01 AM
Bryan, any pictures, drawings, descriptions etc. of the cliff hole?  

I don't mind in the least getting lumped in with Pat (even if in this case I got there first).    
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 10, 2013, 01:21:12 PM
Bryan,

A few things to consider.

The photo below shows the llighthouse on the second gorge, provided that the hole hadn't been flipped.

If it hadn't been flipped, then it would appear that the back of the green extended all the way to the edge of the second gorge.

The reason that the compass points on the aerial are so important is that it would let us locate the actual putting surface with a high degree of certainty.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz1899Chasm.jpg?t=1321905948)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 10, 2013, 01:56:53 PM
Jim,

I've seen a number of descriptions of the "Cliff" hole, but no diagrams.  It is on the stick routing as the 14th.  The following picture, posted on another thread probably portrays it best.  Odd that the hole is titled 14, but the tee box has a 15 on it.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e86/alfonsoey/Biarritz_14.jpg)


Here is an article from 1902 that peripherally talks about the Cliff hole as they discuss backspin on the golf ball.  I thought the article was interesting given it was 1902.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritz1902CliffHolespinarticle.jpg~original)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 10, 2013, 02:21:02 PM
Bryan,

A few things to consider.

The photo below shows the llighthouse on the second gorge, provided that the hole hadn't been flipped.

If it hadn't been flipped, then it would appear that the back of the green extended all the way to the edge of the second gorge.

Sorry, I still don't get what you mean by flipped.  Do you mean relocated in 1897?  I believe the picture shows the green after the 1897 relocation and that the original 1889 tee was out on the point on the right edge of this picture

The reason that the compass points on the aerial are so important is that it would let us locate the actual putting surface with a high degree of certainty.

Do you mean if there were compass points on the photos that that would allow us to locate them on an aerial?  I agree, but we don't have compass points on the pictures.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz1899Chasm.jpg?t=1321905948)



The picture above is, I believe looking more or less W.  The following picture, probably pre-1897 relocation shows the original tee.  This view is from a little more inland that the one above and is probably looking WNW.  The 1897 relocated green would be in the foreground right side of this photo.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmholephotofrom1897.jpg~original)


Here is my attempt to show you where I think the "green" picture above was taken from.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmhole3greenpicangleonaerial.jpg~original)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 11, 2013, 12:50:11 AM
Bryan,

I think the photo was taken back further, near the road as it depicts the gorge, green and tee, along with the lighthouse.

The photo depicting the golfer teeing off, up the hill, next to an identifying tee box is interesting, especially given the date.

As to what I meant by angles, look at George's schematic and where the tee boxes migrated to.
With each migration, the angle of attack became more difficult when playing to a Biarritz green.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on December 11, 2013, 02:11:31 AM
George Bahto indicates that the original tee was at 80' and that the green was at 50', making it more like Yale's 9th.

If so, then flipping it, such that the tee is lower than the green, puzzles me, unless the tee was moved further inland to a spot with equivalent elevation.

Jim, yes, you did allude to the 2nd gorge and thus deserve co-credit. ;D

Will you two calm down, as my post 41 suggests, Tommy N's been saying this for years.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 11, 2013, 03:04:05 AM
Patrick,

I don't think so.  If the picture was taken from more inland, near the road, you'd see more of the ocean in the gorge, more like the teeing picture.  The three lines I drew were based on the line to the lighthouse through the guy in white shirt putting; one straight up the middle of the picture that intersects the slope of the cliff down to the sea; and the third one along the line of the edge if the cliff in the foreground.  The camera had a wider field of view than those three points, but I thought they were good alignment points.  If you look closely at the "green" picture you'll see a white building down below and slightly left of the lighthouse.  That building exists today.  If the picture was taken from more inland that building would have been more in front of the lighthouse.

The photo of the cliff hole is undated as far as I know.  It is not related to the 1902 article below it.

With all respect to George, I think his sketch is erroneous.  The analysis in the last couple of pages show that the green was relocated in 1897, and the tee was relocated to the promontory across the chasm to the east.  George's sketch shows the green remaining in one place while only the tee moved.  I think that is incorrect.  George also shows the hole at 160 yards in 1897.  The contemporaneous reports say the hole was 90 - 100 yards in 1897.  With apologies to George, I have adjusted his sketch to show where the 1897 green was likely located.

With that I think the point about angles is moot in 1897.  Perhaps the tee was moved inland in the 1960's.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzBahtosketchrevisedtoshow1897alteration.jpg~original)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 11, 2013, 01:38:32 PM
1.  For what it is worth, I think some may be putting much too much reliance on George's artistic rendering of what he thought the hole might have looked like originally.  Unless George has been holding out on us, I think the drawing represents his best guess of what the hole might have looked like based on the information he had available at the time.

2. As I have said before, I believe George and others may be mistaken in connecting the "Chasm Hole" at Biarritz, with CBM's "Biarritz" hole.  CBM described the hole which inspired the Biarritz in a few places, but he never mentions a Chasm or "the Chasm."   In fact his physical description of the hole which inspired his Biarritz doesn't seem to fit the Chasm at all.    

3. If one looks at the map (which I believe to be from circa 1893, when the Dunn's expanded the course to 18 holes) one can see an erased tee or green above and out on the point from the current third tee.   My guess is that that this was approximately the location of the original tee, and that the tee shot played toward the large X, perhaps to one of the erased rectangles beyond the X.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/BiarritzPlanUndated.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 11, 2013, 02:39:38 PM
David,

I think you're right about the erroneous "connection"

Where was CBM's first "Biarritz" ?

By "Biarritz", I mean his first double plateaued green with a swale at the mid-point ?

Chicago ?
St Louis
Piping Rock ?

And, was that particular hole named "Biarritz" ?

Piping Rock's 9th hole does entail a carry, although not over a chasm.

I suspect, that the 9th at Yale may have been called Biarritz because of the chasm like carry, rather than the double plateaued, swaled green.

My theory is that the context of "Biarritz" transitioned from the carry over the chasm to the configuration of the green.
And, that carry evidenced itself at the golf course at Biarritz.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Nigel Islam on December 11, 2013, 03:23:05 PM
Pat, I think we established that Piping Rock was likely the first. Certainly from my understanding, Chicago did not come about until the Raynor renovation, and Yale would have been a little after that.

If , I am understanding Pat correctly I think he is saying that he suspects the "Biarritz" hole indicated a carry over a chasm, and that at some point the green with the swale came to be associated with the term "Biarritz" Likely, because Macdonald used that green on a chasm hole. Please feel free to correct me if I am missing the point.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 11, 2013, 03:37:51 PM
Patrick.  

Piping Rock was the first so-called "Biarritz" built by CBM and HJW, and it was described as based on a hole at Biarritz (see Whigham description below.)

I think perhaps the evolution was opposite your description.  CBM's original "Biarritz" concept was the long par three with a hogback then a 30 yard swale short of a plateaued green.  At some later point in time people got confused and thought the hole must have come from the "Chasm" hole which was the most famous hole at Biarritz.  Perhaps the "Chasm" concept got folded into the understanding at Yale or elsewhere.

Briefly on the history of the original concept . . .

CBM and Whigham visited Biarritz (with Arnaud Massy) in early 1906 on their tour of great courses in preparation for the creation of NGLA, and CBM  mentioned what became known as his Biarritz concept shortly thereafter in a letter printed in a June 20, 1906 NY Sun article about his recent trip abroad:

"The best holes have not been found on the five British championship links alone.  . . . The idea for one hole comes from Biarritz.  The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated into my selection."  

No mention of the famous chasm --the description of the hole as "not very good" would seem an incongruous reference if he was referring to the famous Chasm.  While CBM referred to the 12th hole, at that time the Chasm hole at Biarritz was the 3rd hole and was only around 100 yards or less, and flipping the nines doesn't work because of quirks in the layout.  And I have never read any description of the famous Chasm Hole that mentioned a hogs-back or a swale, or the method of playing using the ground game.   So, as far as I can tell, the original Biarritz concept was based on a different hole at Biarritz, likely one down by the water in the Chambre d'Amore (the 12th on the map.)

CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:

"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."

Again no mention of the famous Chasm.  Rather, CBM described a "sharp hog back" in the middle of the course [hole] ending 30 yards short.  And the green is a plateau, with a large swale short of the green.

H.J. Whigham repeated this early understanding in 1913 when describing  the inspiration for Piping Rock's Biarritz:  

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."

Again, nothing about a Chasm, and nothing indicating that they were referring to the Chasm Hole (which was quite famous and called "The Chasm") as opposed to a less noteworthy hole at Biarritz.

____________________________
Nigel,

I think you have Patrick's position accurately, but I think he has it slightly backwards.   The Biarritz (long par three, hogsback across middle, then a swale for 30 yards short of the green, then plateaued green) came first.  If the "chasm" element is indeed an element of the hole concept (which I doubt) it was added later.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Nigel Islam on December 11, 2013, 03:50:42 PM
Ok I want you guys to help me a little on this one. I think the original version of the chasm hole seems to be a very good hole (at least with 2013 equipment), but the later shortened version just seems horrendous to me. It was 90 yards, up the cliff and blind if I am reading all of this correctly?
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 11, 2013, 04:03:19 PM
No.  It gets a little confusing, and I think you and others are confusing the Cliff Hole with the Chasm Hole, but they were two different famous holes.

Originally the course at Biarritz played entirely on cliffs set well above the ocean, and featured on hole famously called "the Chasm" which played from one cliff top to another over (you guessed it) a chasm.   In the mid-1890's the course was expanded to 18 holes using land West of the course and a section of land down below the cliffs at sea level called the Chambre d'Amore.  "The Cliff" Hole was the hole that played straight up a cliff to get out of the Chambre.

So, IMO, three different holes from Biarritz are being discussed here.   Two of them - the Chasm and the Cliff - were quite famous.  The third hole was not at all famous, but perhaps inspired CBM.  Again .  . .

1.  The famous "Chasm" which played over a "chasm" up above on cliffs set well above the ocean. First the hole played over one chasm, then it was changed to play over a shorter chasm, but still both were up on the cliffs set well above the ocean.  

2.  The famous "Cliff" which played from down at ocean level (in the Chambre d' Amore") straight up to the top of an ocean cliff.  You were essentially hitting a blind shot directly up a cliff.  

3.  The third was No. 12, which CBM said was not a very good hole but featured an original concept which eventually formed the basis for what became known as the Biarritz hole.  


On the map above, No. 3 was the Chasm, No. 14 was the Cliff, and (IMO) No. 12 was the hole which inspired CBM.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Nigel Islam on December 11, 2013, 04:11:10 PM
Ok then #14 could not have been considered a good hole then? Famous, yes. Good? A ninety yard blind shot up a cliff?
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 11, 2013, 04:15:20 PM
I won't speculate beyond famous.  

At the very least it was the site of some good stories.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 11, 2013, 04:45:47 PM
This has been a great thread instigated by Bryan with some good illustrations.... And now David has re-posted his findings from a different thread then it has everything in one place...

For me, David's conclusions always seemed to be the most sensible.... And I also like Bryan's conclusions on the approximate evolution of the Chasm hole... Closest we've come on both fronts to a definite answer says I...
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 11, 2013, 09:15:51 PM
David,

Here's where we disagree.

Quote

CBM's original "Biarritz" concept was the long par three with a hogback then a 30 yard swale short of a plateaued green.

The above description is exactly how the Biarritz green complex is configured.

For some time I always equated a "hogback" with a spine, typically found in CBM's greens, but, the "hogback" he's refering to is the huge front portion of the Biarritz, mowed to putting surface at Yale and others, and left as fairway on other Biarritz's.

He's describing the "first" plateau as the "hogback"
Quote
At some later point in time people got confused and thought the hole must have come from the "Chasm" hole which was the most famous hole at Biarritz.  

Perhaps the "Chasm" concept got folded into the understanding at Yale or elsewhere
.


Both Piping Rock's and Yale's Biarritz play from elevated tees to a lower green.
At Yale, it's quite pronounced and over a chasm of sorts.

The question I would pose is: was their a green at the golf course at Biarritz that had the configuration described above.

Coincidence, rather than design, may be responsible for the name assigned to the double plateaued par 3 holes with a center swale.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 11, 2013, 10:53:48 PM
I agree that his description is of a Biarritz green complex and that the hogback is the first plateau.  Where we may disagree is with your theory "that the context of 'Biarritz' transitioned from the carry over the chasm to the configuration of the green."  I don't think the chasm had anything to do with CBM's original biarritz hole concept.

As for your question, it is a little hard to tell what holes existed at Biarritz at the time CBM visited. The only two commonly discussed  holes were the Chasm and the Cliff.   But CBM does mention that the hole in question was "No. 12" and the approach on No. 12 on the map above seems to somewhat fit the description in that the contour lines show a long hogback running up the center of the hole and ending about 30 yards short of the green.   I've never seen a good enough photo of the hole to confirm.

As for change in elevation, CBM and HJW didn't mention this as being a characteristic they were borrowing from the model at Biarritz.  Also,  I know George's drawing shows a substantial elevation change on from tee to green on the "Chasm" but I am not sure that there ever was such an elevation change.  I quickly checked the elevations on Google Earth, and don't see it.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 11, 2013, 11:05:10 PM

I agree that his description is of a Biarritz green complex and that the hogback is the first plateau.  Where we may disagree is with your theory "that the context of 'Biarritz' transitioned from the carry over the chasm to the configuration of the green."  I don't think the chasm had anything to do with CBM's original biarritz hole concept.

I don't either.

You're missing my point which is that others, not CBM, coined the label, by equating the carry over the chasm as evidenced at the Biarritz golf course, with the name "Biarritz"

CBM describes the green (hogback, plateau, etc. etc.) and I wonder if one of the holes at the Biarritz golf course had a similar green.

In other words, did the concept come from the configuration of a green at Biarritz, rather than the carry on a hole ?

As for your question, it is a little hard to tell what holes existed at Biarritz at the time CBM visited. The only two commonly discussed  holes were the Chasm and the Cliff.  

But CBM does mention that the hole in question was "No. 12" and the approach on No. 12 on the map above seems to somewhat fit the description in that the contour lines show a long hogback running up the center of the hole and ending about 30 yards short of the green.   I've never seen a good enough photo of the hole to confirm.

That's my theory, that another hole at Biarritz, with the "hogback" and "plateau" features in the green complex was the genesis of his design at Piping Rock and others, and that the creation of # 9 at Yale, redirected others who erroneously made the quantum leap of conceptualizing the hole as one requiring a carry over a chasm, rather than one with the configuration cited above.

As for change in elevation, CBM and HJW didn't mention this as being a characteristic they were borrowing from the model at Biarritz.  Also,  I know George's drawing shows a substantial elevation change on from tee to green on the "Chasm" but I am not sure that there ever was such an elevation change.  I quickly checked the elevations on Google Earth, and don't see it.

I did that last night as well, but, for the hole to work, the tee and green would have to be close to equal with an elevated tee the prefered arrangement.

While one can conceive of playing to an uphill green on a Redan, I don't think it would work with a Biarritz, where part of the joy is seeing the ball reappear on the back plateau.


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Nigel Islam on December 11, 2013, 11:41:04 PM
Pat the biarritz at St Louis which is an early one (1914) is indeed substantially uphill. It is also not called biarritz. I agree it doesn't work all that well conceptually.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 11, 2013, 11:47:31 PM
David,

1.  For what it is worth, I think some may be putting much too much reliance on George's artistic rendering of what he thought the hole might have looked like originally.  Unless George has been holding out on us, I think the drawing represents his best guess of what the hole might have looked like based on the information he had available at the time.

2. As I have said before, I believe George and others may be mistaken in connecting the "Chasm Hole" at Biarritz, with CBM's "Biarritz" hole.  CBM described the hole which inspired the Biarritz in a few places, but he never mentions a Chasm or "the Chasm."   In fact his physical description of the hole which inspired his Biarritz doesn't seem to fit the Chasm at all.    

3. If one looks at the map (which I believe to be from circa 1893, when the Dunn's expanded the course to 18 holes) one can see an erased tee or green above and out on the point from the current third tee.   My guess is that that this was approximately the location of the original tee, and that the tee shot played toward the large X, perhaps to one of the erased rectangles beyond the X.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/BiarritzPlanUndated.jpg)

Agreed on point 1.

Agreed on point 2, unless someone turns up a picture or a description of the Chasm hole showing a humpback, swale and plateau green.  It seems unlikely to me for the simple reason that the hole was only 100 yards when CBM got there - little room for all those features.

Agreed on point 3.  That matches up to the way I drew up the two holes above.

Your proposition that the 12th was the model for the CBM Biarritz hole seems plausible to me.  It would be nice to find some confirmatory description or picture of the hole.  This sort of reminds me of the Leven hole where the feature is both pretty nondescript and on on a pretty nondescript hole.  It always struck me as a bit strange that CBM would have picked that feature out of all the features he saw on his tour. Perhaps the same applies to the Biarritz concept.  Maybe it was pretty nondescript for most eyes at the time and consequently nobody but CBM thought much of it

As a passing thought, the routing map places the 12th on what is now the beach, so no hog's back or swale today.  In the 1890's it looks like the beach was 50 to 100 yards further away from the cliff.  From the routing it looks like there might have been a seawall just to the left of the 12th.  There appears to have been a fair bit of coastal erosion over the last century taking away whatever topogharphy was there (not to mention they built a hotel).

BTW, is the Chambre d'Amore the Italian version of the Chambre d'Amour?   ;) ;D

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 11, 2013, 11:54:01 PM
Pat and Nigel,

Remember that CBM took bits and pieces of holes to create his templates.  He may have applied the hog's back, swale and plateau green concepts on a downhill hole or an uphill hole depending on what the site gave him.  Playing uphill would work in the sense of giving you more roll out on landing since the angle of incidence would be less.  Pat would be disappointed because he couldn't watch it roll out.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 12, 2013, 12:01:02 AM
Here's another Hutchinson article from a compendium of articles published in 1898.  It must have been written before 1897 because Willie Dunn was still around.  It doesn't answer the "Biarritz" question, but it's an interesting read.  The 2nd sounds like a weird hole, by today's standards.  I'm not sure what to make of the comments on the Chasm hole.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/0293eb54-f382-44fc-b11c-f3f2b61e301f.jpg~original)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritz1898TheGolfingPilgrim-2.jpg~original)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritz1898TheGolfingPilgrim-3.jpg~original)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritz1898TheGolfingPilgrim-4.jpg~original)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritz1898TheGolfingPilgrim-5.jpg~original)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritz1898TheGolfingPilgrim-6.jpg~original)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritz1898TheGolfingPilgrim-7.jpg~original)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 12, 2013, 12:04:50 PM

You're missing my point which is that others, not CBM, coined the label, by equating the carry over the chasm as evidenced at the Biarritz golf course, with the name "Biarritz"

In June of 1906 CBM referred to the hole concept as being based on No. 12 at Biarritz, then again wrote much the same thing later in 1906 and 1907, and in 1913 when describing Piping Rock, Whigham specifically referred to the hole as as "a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards . . .."   So I think it pretty safe to say that CBM and Whigham coined the label "Biarritz" for this type of hole.    I think with Yale and other courses some must have mistakenly gotten the idea that the label "Biarritz" automatically referred to the Chasm Hole since it was by far the most famous.

Come to think of it, I am not sure who first connected the Chasm hole to the Biarritz hole.  For all I know it might have been a relatively modern notion to connect the two.  As I have said I don't think it was CBM or HJW who ever connected the two.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 12, 2013, 12:22:59 PM
Your proposition that the 12th was the model for the CBM Biarritz hole seems plausible to me.  It would be nice to find some confirmatory description or picture of the hole.  This sort of reminds me of the Leven hole where the feature is both pretty nondescript and on on a pretty nondescript hole.  It always struck me as a bit strange that CBM would have picked that feature out of all the features he saw on his tour. Perhaps the same applies to the Biarritz concept.  Maybe it was pretty nondescript for most eyes at the time and consequently nobody but CBM thought much of it

Some years back I spent some time trying to find the green in various photos and post cards but with no real luck.   Whichever green it was, it is strange that CBM focused on and held onto this particular feature above all else he saw.   Given his commitment to presenting complete variety in hole lengths, maybe he was really trying to focus on a concept that might work for shots just beyond the reach of a driver, and this particular concept fit the bill.    Or maybe he had the idea on his own and was just hoping to find a hole to justify it and had to go all the way to a "not good" hole at Biarritz to do it.  

Quote
As a passing thought, the routing map places the 12th on what is now the beach, so no hog's back or swale today.  In the 1890's it looks like the beach was 50 to 100 yards further away from the cliff.  From the routing it looks like there might have been a seawall just to the left of the 12th.  There appears to have been a fair bit of coastal erosion over the last century taking away whatever topogharphy was there (not to mention they built a hotel).

There must have been some sort of protection there for that building down there to have survived for any time at all.
________________________________________________

As for the Pilgrim Abroad excerpt, I am not too sure what to make of it either.  There were a series of Hutchinson articles/chapters over the years all with essentially the same "Chasm" description recycled over and over again, so they aren't too useful for dating purposes.  This one though is interesting in that Hutchinson discussed the hole in past tense, as if it no longer existed.

I did find an early reference to the hole from 1890 which described the carry over the cliffs as 80 yards, with the green another 120 yards beyond that.  I'd be surprised if the hole was ever longer than this 200 yards.  (I am not sure, but the 220 figure seems to have come from Dunn who was writing 40 plus yards later, and who had a number of facts wrong.)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Sherma on December 12, 2013, 02:44:11 PM
Great thread. Brian and David - thank you for your contributions in making this conversation happen at this high of a level.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 12, 2013, 04:14:12 PM
David,

As you know, Willie Dunn moved to America and ended up at Ardsley Park Casino and built a course there that NLE in its original form.  I found this 1896 article that describes the original 1896 9 hole course.  The stick routing shows a 250 yard hole over a "gulch" along the banks of the Hudson.  The text describes the hole and says it is aptly named "The Chasm".  Perhaps Dunn himself was first to import the hole concept.  Interesting that they call it Chasm and not Biarritz.

The 250 yards is probably spurious given some of the other holes are 600 yards and 850 yards.  An 1899 stick routing shows the hole at 122 yards over a ravine.  Seems more reasonable that it was 122 yards.

Looks like a lot of plateau greens on the back nine (scroll right).  Do you see any that look like they might have been a Biarritz?

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzArdsleyParkWillieDunn1896.jpg~original)

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzArdsleyParkWillieDunn1899.jpg~original)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 12, 2013, 08:20:28 PM
Thanks Jim.
_________________

Bryan,  

Ardsley was an interesting project, and probably one of the earliest examples of a golf course in the US that required relatively large scale construction.  And it had some crazy features, including fences, long piles of rocks, cops, and artificial mounds/pyramids of dirt.   I've never seen a photo indicating anything like a CBM style "biarritz" green, but I have only seen photos of a few of the greens.  The course not only had a chasm hole, it also had an "Alps" hole which had artificial mounds scattered around the green.

Not sure if this was the first use of a "chasm" in the US but looking at the first 4 holes at Ardlsey, though, I think it safe to say that Dunn liked the idea of teeing off over ravines/chasms and perhaps he got that from Biarritz.   Or maybe he got it from the quarry hole at North Berwick.  Or maybe it just seemed like a cool thing to do.

Here are a few early photos (circa 1898) and a newspaper article with some renderings from December 1895.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Ardsley18982nd.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Ardsley18985thG.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Ardsley18986thG.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Ardsley-18951222.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Ardsley-18951222-Green-NYW.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 12, 2013, 09:18:31 PM

You're missing my point which is that others, not CBM, coined the label, by equating the carry over the chasm as evidenced at the Biarritz golf course, with the name "Biarritz"

In June of 1906 CBM referred to the hole concept as being based on No. 12 at Biarritz, then again wrote much the same thing later in 1906 and 1907, and in 1913 when describing Piping Rock, Whigham specifically referred to the hole as as "a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards . . .."  
So I think it pretty safe to say that CBM and Whigham coined the label "Biarritz" for this type of hole.

That's part of my point, that CBM copied the green at # 12 at the Biarritz Golf Course, and called the hole Biarritz, because of the configuration of the green, not because of the heroic carry found at other holes at the Biarritz Golf Course.

But, as time went by, others the associated the name, Biarritz, with the heroic carry, not the configuration of the green.

At 220 yards, right on the water, I would seriously doubt that the green on the "Chasm" hole was configured anything like the green on the 9th at Yale.    

I think with Yale and other courses some must have mistakenly gotten the idea that the label "Biarritz" automatically referred to the Chasm Hole since it was by far the most famous.

Agreed

Come to think of it, I am not sure who first connected the Chasm hole to the Biarritz hole.  For all I know it might have been a relatively modern notion to connect the two.  As I have said I don't think it was CBM or HJW who ever connected the two.

Agreed

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 12, 2013, 10:09:25 PM
Actually, George's schematic doesn't indicate the configuration closely identified as a "Biarritz" green.

And, I think the schematic is mislabeled, that it shouldn't be labeled a "Biarritz", rather it should be labeled as the "chasm" hole at the Biarritz Golf Club.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzBahtosketchrevisedtoshow1897alteration.jpg~original)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Rich Goodale on December 13, 2013, 10:01:33 AM
Excellent work, Bryan and David.  Many thanks.

IMO you have proved that the theory that CBM/Whigham's "Biarritz" was modeled on the "Chasm" hole is false.  I am not yet sure, however, that you have identfied the actual "culprit."  To me, the various diagrams and google earth dowloads point more to what was the 11th at Biarritz, rather than the 12th.  On Bryan's post #45 you can see the old 11th green, which is now obviously part of the beach or even the sea.  From the contemporary reports on this thread, this green was reached after a downhill tee shot from the Chambre d'Amour, which was significantly elelvated (see the topo marks on the contemporary sketch).  The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A, then the 13th went down to the beach and then #14 ("La Montee de las Falaise") back up to the cliiff on which most of the course resides.  I can see that green (of which we only have a few of the long side) being fronted by a hogsback, but I can't see the 12th, with its blind tee shot, up the cliff benefitting from what we know toeday as a "Biarritz" green.

Of course, unlike Pat Mucci, I might be wrong.....

Rich
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bill Brightly on December 13, 2013, 10:59:18 AM
This has been a great thread; the research you guys do is amazing! In attempting to understand Macdonald's intent, and how influenced he might have been by the Chasm Hole in France, I always come back to what he built at The Creek. It seems obvious that this hole was built with the Bay of Biscay in mind.


(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/The%20Creek/DSCN0207.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/wcb323/media/The%20Creek/DSCN0207.jpg.html)

(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/The%20Creek/DSCN0206-Copy.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/wcb323/media/The%20Creek/DSCN0206-Copy.jpg.html)

From the back of the green
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee169/wcb323/The%20Creek/DSCN0209-Copy.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/wcb323/media/The%20Creek/DSCN0209-Copy.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bill Brightly on December 13, 2013, 11:06:38 AM
I wonder if David Moriarty and others could comment on the possiblity that the Biarritz holes Macdonald built might have been a combination of features: the drama of the tee shot at Chasm Hole at the Biarritz Club, and the Valley of Sin at St. Andrews.

I understand why the hole at the NLE Biarritz Club is so fascinating, but are we missing another hole that played a critical role in what Macdonald and Raynor built? Did Macdonald write about the Valley of Sin in connection with courses he designed? (Like the 17th at Merion. ;) )
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Rich Goodale on December 13, 2013, 11:44:00 AM
Bill

The problem with the "Valley of Sin" theory is that the "original" only plays like a CBM "Biarritz" if the pin is in a very precise place (i.e. the Sunday Open pin) and you can hit your drive to a very specific place, as the VofS is small and angled right to left.

Rich
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bill Brightly on December 13, 2013, 02:01:34 PM
Rich, here is the answer to the "problem" you suggest with the Valley of Sin theory.

CBM, writing in Scotland's Gift about the drawings he made of thirty or forty golf holes that he studied:

"these drawings were not necessarily copies of the hole from tee to green but in most instances were of the outstanding features which I thought made the hole interesting and which might be adapted to a hole of different length. Two or three features might be put in a hole which would make it more or less composite in its nature."
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 13, 2013, 02:26:13 PM
Excellent work, Bryan and David.  Many thanks.

IMO you have proved that the theory that CBM/Whigham's "Biarritz" was modeled on the "Chasm" hole is false.  I am not yet sure, however, that you have identfied the actual "culprit."  To me, the various diagrams and google earth dowloads point more to what was the 11th at Biarritz, rather than the 12th.  On Bryan's post #45 you can see the old 11th green, which is now obviously part of the beach or even the sea.  From the contemporary reports on this thread, this green was reached after a downhill tee shot from the Chambre d'Amour, which was significantly elelvated (see the topo marks on the contemporary sketch).  The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A, then the 13th went down to the beach and then #14 ("La Montee de las Falaise") back up to the cliiff on which most of the course resides.  I can see that green (of which we only have a few of the long side) being fronted by a hogsback, but I can't see the 12th, with its blind tee shot, up the cliff benefitting from what we know toeday as a "Biarritz" green.

I'm not sure I understand your description.  Using the numbers on the old map (circa 1893, I think) I agree the 11th played steeply down into the Chambre, but I don't know what you mean when you say "The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A."   My understanding is that the 12th played along the beach, almost at sea level, toward the building near the beach in the chambre.  Here is a photo showing the land 12th played over, with the hole starting in the left hand side of the photo.  One can see a "hogback" or a roll in the land along the lines the hole played.   (This postcard is undated, and I am not sure if there was any course there at his point, but one can make out people near where the location of the 12th green must have been.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/BiarritzChambre.png)

As for my theory, I am not sure I've identified the actual culprit either, or that proper identification is even possible at this point.  It is just my best guess based mostly on two factors:
1.  CBM identified the hole as the 12th, so this seems a likely place to start.
2.  The layout map (which I believe is circa 1893) has contour lines on the "new" parts of the course, and the 12th hole looks like it has a hogback running up the center of the hole and ending about 30 yards short of the green, thus matching CBM's description.  And the photos I have seen of the Chambre seem to indicate the same hogback (see photo above and map excerpt below.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-Hog-Back.jpg)

Here are a few potential problems with my theory:
1.  From early on, they kept adding and adding and subtracting holes from the Chambre, so it is difficult to say for certain that this was No. 12 in early 1906 when CBM first saw the hole.  To make a short story long . . . originally there were four holes down there (including the 11th which played into the Chambre and the 14th ("Cliff") which played out) but at different times there seems to have been up to six holes down there, so the 9th played into the chambre and the 14th played out.   So I don't have total confidence that the 12th that CBM saw was the same as the 12th on the circa 1893 diagram.  That said, I think it was, based on a 1906 article which indicates that the hole right after the "Cliff" hole was the 15th.  Working backwards (with what I can make of the routing from photos) that would put the 12th in the same spot as on the map.  Essentially I think they added two holes in the middle of the four original Chambre holes, on playing up and and one back, right after the hole that played down into the Chambre.
2.  The 12th hole on the map was closer to 300 yards than 200 in the mid 1890's, and I don't know how long it was when CBM saw it.   This doesn't bother me too much because CBM was clear he was only taking an idea from the hole, and was not copying the entire hole, which he thought was pretty poor.  Also, when the holes were added, this hole may have been shortened.  Whatever the length, he could have borrowed the concept.
3.  I've never found a good photo of the green surrounds for this hole, and the ones I do have are inconclusive.  

As for your theory that it was actually the 11th hole, I considered that as well, but that theory has some problems, too.  
1.  I am pretty sure based on various articles and photos that in 1906 (when CBM was there) the hole you have identified was the 9th hole, not the 12th hole.
2.  I've seen a number of photos of that green and while it changed a lot, it is a stretch to find the features described by CBM in any of the photos.  Here are a few:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/BiarritzPostcardChambre.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/BiarritzGolfGreen11th.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/BiarritzChambredAGreen.jpg)

Nothing looks much like what I'd expect to see on the model for the Biarritz green concept.  

So while it still remains a mystery to me, I am sticking with the 12th (on the map) for the time being.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 13, 2013, 02:47:46 PM
I wonder if David Moriarty and others could comment on the possiblity that the Biarritz holes Macdonald built might have been a combination of features: the drama of the tee shot at Chasm Hole at the Biarritz Club, and the Valley of Sin at St. Andrews.

I understand why the hole at the NLE Biarritz Club is so fascinating, but are we missing another hole that played a critical role in what Macdonald and Raynor built? Did Macdonald write about the Valley of Sin in connection with courses he designed? (Like the 17th at Merion. ;) )

Bill,  It think that many of CBM's supposed copies were based on concepts from different holes, and this one is probably no different, and it could be that the Valley of Sin was an influence.  According to George, some of the early swales on Biarritz holes were referred to as Valleys of Sin, so this would seem to support that theory.  

On the other hand, the shortcoming of the theory (besides the one mentioned by Rich) is that both CBM and Whigham were quite clear that the inspiration for the hole concept was  No. 12 at Biarritz.   And they described No. 12 as having a hogback running up the middle of the hole, followed by a swale/ditch/valley, followed by a plateaued green.   So it seems pretty clear that this was at least their stated influence.

I am not aware of anything written by CBM or Whigham ever discussing the Valley of Sin.

As for the Chasm Hole also being an influence on the Biarritz concept (in addition to No. 12 at Biarritz) that could have been the case as time went on, but I don't think it was the case initially, for at least a couple of reasons:
1.  CBM and Whigham both described the hole concept and neither mentioned anything about a giant chasm being an element of the hole.  
2.  On the first two Biarritz holes they built (Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock) there was nothing resembling a Chasm.  

So even though CBM liked to put some of his Biarritz holes over some dramatic element, I have trouble making the leap to the conclusion that this had much to do with emulating the Chasm at Biarritz.  

One thing to keep in mind about CBM is that he didn't want people to be able to skull their shots and still get on the green on par threes.  He discussed this with regard to the Eden and put his Eden greens beyond ponds or other trouble, and perhaps he did the same thing with Biarritz greens.  For him there was a definite difference between skillfully landing the ball short of the green and running it up, versus  just skulling it and getting a lucky roll.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Mark Saltzman on December 13, 2013, 02:57:47 PM

2.  On the first two Biarritz holes they built (Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock) there was nothing resembling a Chasm.  


David, thank you very much for your work on this thread, fascinating stuff.

Regarding the above statement, wouldn't you say (assuming it is original) that the cross-bunker on 8 at PRC could represent the Chasm?
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 13, 2013, 03:10:43 PM

2.  On the first two Biarritz holes they built (Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock) there was nothing resembling a Chasm.  


David, thank you very much for your work on this thread, fascinating stuff.

Regarding the above statement, wouldn't you say (assuming it is original) that the cross-bunker on 8 at PRC could represent the Chasm?

Maybe I am just too literal, but I can't quite wrap my arms around the notion that a (relatively) dinky top shot bunker was supposed to somehow represent a giant ocean chasm.  

I keep coming back to the the fact that both CBM and Whigham wrote about the Biarritz hole concept, and Whigham specifically wrote about the concept as it specifically applied at Piping Rock and neither ever mentioned the Chasm (that I know of at least.)  Had CBM or Whigham ever described the bunker as the "Chasm" bunker, or wrote about how it was an artistic representation of the Chasm, then I could see it. (Whigham was an art critic, after all.)  But they didn't.  Without some statement from them it seems a stretch.  

It seems more reasonable to me to view the bunker as a functional bunker designed to stop people from being able to tip their tee shots yet still succeed.  CBM's early courses seem to have been full of such bunkers, and I  doubt he had the Chasm in mind when he built them.

Just my opinion, of course.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 13, 2013, 11:05:32 PM

2.  On the first two Biarritz holes they built (Sleepy Hollow and Piping Rock) there was nothing resembling a Chasm.  


David, thank you very much for your work on this thread, fascinating stuff.

Regarding the above statement, wouldn't you say (assuming it is original) that the cross-bunker on 8 at PRC could represent the Chasm?

Mark,

Absolutely not.

# 8 is the "Road Hole"

On #  9, there's about a 20 foot drop from the back tee to the bottom of the fronting bunker, so in lose sense, you could say that might represent a chasm of sorts.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 13, 2013, 11:11:08 PM

Excellent work, Bryan and David.  Many thanks.

IMO you have proved that the theory that CBM/Whigham's "Biarritz" was modeled on the "Chasm" hole is false.  


I would agree, except when you introduce Yale.

I am not yet sure, however, that you have identfied the actual "culprit."  To me, the various diagrams and google earth dowloads point more to what was the 11th at Biarritz, rather than the 12th.  On Bryan's post #45 you can see the old 11th green, which is now obviously part of the beach or even the sea.  From the contemporary reports on this thread, this green was reached after a downhill tee shot from the Chambre d'Amour, which was significantly elelvated (see the topo marks on the contemporary sketch).  

The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A, then the 13th went down to the beach and then #14 ("La Montee de las Falaise") back up to the cliiff on which most of the course resides.  

What seems to contradict your above statement, is the photo below.
Brian indicates that the tee marker indicates # 15, but, my eyes aren't good enough to discern if it's # 15 or # 13, but, it's definitely not # 12 or # 14.  What appears to create further doubt about the hole is that, are we CERTAIN that the golfer, picture below,  is hitting UP to the top of the cliff ?
Look at the yardage on the tee marker, it's ONLY 80 yards.
Maybe someone like Craig Disher could provide a photo interpretation of the distance from the tee to that flag, given the man standing to the right of what appears to be the flag.

The other thing that bothers me about the photo is what some are declaring as the hole.
Think of that hole, even at 80 yards, it's straight uphill, sharply uphill, with any missed shot resulting in an X.
Consider the equipment being played circa the date of the photo.
Could this be a mislabeled photo.

So many things about it appear wrong.
Stating it's # 14 when the tee marker says # 13 or # 15, the beyond penal nature of the hole, straight up a sheer cliff with any miss hit resulting in telephone numbers, with golfers playing with those I&B ?
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e86/alfonsoey/Biarritz_14.jpg)
 

I can see that green (of which we only have a few of the long side) being fronted by a hogsback, but I can't see the 12th, with its blind tee shot, up the cliff benefitting from what we know today as a "Biarritz" green.

Of course, unlike Pat Mucci, I might be wrong.....

It would appear that you are.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 14, 2013, 01:20:40 AM
Patrick,

Go back to post #75 and read the beginning of the contemporaneous article.  Does this picture not fit that description to a tee?
 The "Cliff" hole is on the stick routing as #14 and is listed at 80 yards.  The box says 15 (which I can see by zooming in on the photo) but has the yardage as 80 yards, the same as the stick routing.  Perhaps the person who stencilled the box messed up on the hole number.  Maybe it was #15 when photographed but was #14 when the picture was printed and titled.  According to the article it was a challenging hole, but I bet it was nowhere near as challenging as the original "Chasm" hole at 225 yards.  I'm sure you could have handled it with a lofting-mashie and a gutta-percha ball.  But neither of us were there then so we can't comment on how it would play (or so you've told me many times).

Assume the man on top is 6' tall and the cliff is vertical, then the cliff is about 10 or 11 men tall. You can do the math.   ;D

Still digging in the charcoal layer are you?   ;) ;D

  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Niall C on December 14, 2013, 09:39:37 AM
Patrick

With regards the photo in your last post, it would appear the little boy at the top of the cliff is possibly a caddy and probably giving the line of the hole, is he not ?

Niall
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Michael Whitaker on December 14, 2013, 09:54:02 AM
Brian - not that it matters... the number on the box looks to be 13 to me, not 15.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Michael Whitaker on December 14, 2013, 10:10:36 AM
It seems to me, Brian, that the golfer in this photo his hitting his shot down below and not up onto the cliff, which would make sense if this were hole 13. The observer to the right also seems to be looking below to where the shot is traveling. According to the stick routing the 13th played down to the beach level then one played back up over the cliff on the level where the boy is standing.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Michael Whitaker on December 14, 2013, 10:16:44 AM
Also... I don't think the box says 80 yards... I think if you look very closely you will see it says 186 yards... which matches #13.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 14, 2013, 11:11:36 AM
Patrick,

Go back to post #75 and read the beginning of the contemporaneous article.  Does this picture not fit that description to a tee?
 The "Cliff" hole is on the stick routing as #14 and is listed at 80 yards.  The box says 15 (which I can see by zooming in on the photo) but has the yardage as 80 yards, the same as the stick routing.  Perhaps the person who stencilled the box messed up on the hole number.  Maybe it was #15 when photographed but was #14 when the picture was printed and titled.  According to the article it was a challenging hole, but I bet it was nowhere near as challenging as the original "Chasm" hole at 225 yards.  I'm sure you could have handled it with a lofting-mashie and a gutta-percha ball.  But neither of us were there then so we can't comment on how it would play (or so you've told me many times).

Bryan,

How conveniently you dismiss undeniable physical evidence, the evidence presented in the photo.

The yardage marker is crystal clear, to your eyes at least, it's the 15th hole and it's 80 yards.

Now, you can engage in revisionist history or dismiss the physical evidence, but, I'm still not convinced that something isn't amiss.

Assume the man on top is 6' tall and the cliff is vertical, then the cliff is about 10 or 11 men tall. You can do the math.   ;D

Bryan, look at that daunting cliff.  It demands immediate loft through a perfectly struck tee shot.
Tell me, tell us, how you would play that hole if you missed your tee shot and hit it into the cliff.
Tell us how you would play your next shot, and the next 200 shots you'd hit in an attempt to get to the green.

I'm telling you that something is amiss.

Still digging in the charcoal layer are you?   ;) ;D

We found that long ago, but, we only found it under the putting surfaces. ;D
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 14, 2013, 11:15:19 AM
Patrick

With regards the photo in your last post, it would appear the little boy at the top of the cliff is possibly a caddy and probably giving the line of the hole, is he not ?

Niall,

Yes, yes, you're right, it is a caddy, and he's got his right hand raised because he's just thrown the golfer's golf bag over the cliff  ;D
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e86/alfonsoey/Biarritz_14.jpg)



Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 14, 2013, 11:21:14 AM

It seems to me, Brian, that the golfer in this photo his hitting his shot down below and not up onto the cliff, which would make sense if this were hole 13. The observer to the right also seems to be looking below to where the shot is traveling. According to the stick routing the 13th played down to the beach level then one played back up over the cliff on the level where the boy is standing.

Michael,

I agree, and that's what I was saying to Bryan Izatt and Rich Goodale, who was wrong again. ;D

There was no way that fellow in the photo was playing up to the top of that cliff and there was no way that someone, as Bryan claimed, moved the tee marker to the wrong location or misstenciled the marker.

They have so much to learn and I have neither the time nor the patience, would you help them.

P.S.  Bryan, I see an optometrist in your future  ;D
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 14, 2013, 12:33:16 PM
Mike & Patrick,

Here is a larger version of the picture.  It looks like a 5 to me and not a 3, but each to their own.  It definitely looks like 80 yards.  And, the picture is titled "The Cliff".  If it was 13 heading to the beach then I'd expect to see the ocean in the distance, not the cliff.  Whether it is 13 or 15 on the box, most likely it means that the picture is from one of the iterations of the course where there were more or fewer holes down in the Chambre.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/biarritzcliffholezoomedin.jpg~original)


As to the 14 in the title, perhaps that is a slide number rather than the hole number.  Here is another picture that is labelled 14, but is in an entirely different direction and probably shows the 11th green.

(http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/207/735/952_001.jpg?v=1)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 14, 2013, 12:47:05 PM
Bryan,

If we've learned anything, it's that written articles suffer in terms of accuracy.

They can be informative and accurate, but, often they're dead wrong.

The photo you posted is a perfect example.

The caption says # 14, yet the yardage marker is clear that it's NOT # 14.

We have the difficult task of trying to decipher and filter through this information and misinformation and reach prudent conclusions.

But, let me ask you this.

How could you possible play the hole pictured, once you miss your tee shot ?

It would be impossible to hit any subsequent shot, safely up the cliff, to the green.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 14, 2013, 02:32:42 PM
I think I may have found the source of my confusion about Rich's post.  Rich wrote that the:  "The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A . . . "

He seems to have gotten this from Tommy who posted the following image on the first page of this thread, and wrote, "The 12th played back up over the chambre d'amour and was supposedly the most prominent and feared hole at Biarritz."

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Biarritz12.jpg)

Trouble is, the C d'A was the area down below the cliffs, not up above the cliffs, and I am pretty sure the hole pictured is actually the Cliff Hole, which is No. 14 on the map.

As for the photo with "13" or "15" on the box, I am not quite sure what to make of it.  On the one hand, it looks a lot like the cliff hole,   On the other hand, the tee for the 13th (on the map) is pretty close to the tee for the Cliff hole, so I guess it is conceivable that the photo is of people teeing off on the 13th, but the angle of the photo is aimed to capture the cliff hole.    That said, I I am leaning towards Bryan's explanation that this was just a different iteration when the Cliff hole was either the 13th or 15th, but I am not sure.  

Somewhere I have at least one other photo of the Cliff hole, and I will try to dig up when I get the chance.  

(Incidentally and for clarification's sake, Tommy also posted a photo he identified as the Chasm tee, but the hole in the photo is actually of a different hole at a different course where the ocean was on the golfer's left, not right.)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 14, 2013, 03:19:24 PM
I think I may have found the source of my confusion about Rich's post.  Rich wrote that the:  "The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A . . . "

He seems to have gotten this from Tommy who posted the following image on the first page of this thread, and wrote, "The 12th played back up over the chambre d'amour and was supposedly the most prominent and feared hole at Biarritz."

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Biarritz12.jpg)

Trouble is, the C d'A was the area down below the cliffs, not up above the cliffs, and I am pretty sure the hole pictured is actually the Cliff Hole, which is No. 14 on the map.

As for the photo with "13" or "15" on the box, I am not quite sure what to make of it.  On the one hand, it looks a lot like the cliff hole,   On the other hand, the tee for the 13th (on the map) is pretty close to the tee for the Cliff hole, so I guess it is conceivable that the photo is of people teeing off on the 13th, but the angle of the photo is aimed to capture the cliff hole.    That said, I I am leaning towards Bryan's explanation that this was just a different iteration when the Cliff hole was either the 13th or 15th, but I am not sure.  

Somewhere I have at least one other photo of the Cliff hole, and I will try to dig up when I get the chance.  

(Incidentally and for clarification's sake, Tommy also posted a photo he identified as the Chasm tee, but the hole in the photo is actually of a different hole at a different course where the ocean was on the golfer's left, not right.)

I hadn't really considered that photo before David but now I look at it, I have a feeling we have the answer right in front of us.

In other words, could that be a close up of the hogs back and green (at oblique angle - note rough line) of the 12th hole that Macdonald took inspiration from? The angle is right with what looks like the 13th tees behind placed on the bluff where the road descends. The topography fits as well.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Rich Goodale on December 14, 2013, 04:06:41 PM
Thanks again for your work, David.  I've done a bit more digging and a bit more thinking and offer the following:

1.  Wnen I said "The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up ONTO the C d'A . . . " I was assuming that the C d' A was the large oval surrounded by roads in Bryan's map from popst #36 on this thread.  However, further research has indicated that the C d' A was in fact a small grotto by the shoreline (where two star-crossed lovers used to meet for romnatic trysts , and were drowned in a tidal surge in the early 19th C) located roughly in line with the tee shot on the 12th hole from Bryan's map, and very possibly conforming to the photo that Ally reproduced in the post above.  Givein that it was a 300+ yard hole up the escarpment, I still think it more likely that the 1th green (downhill to the beach) is a more likely candidatge.

2.  The picture of the "Cliff" hole is almost certainly that of the hole which on Bryan's map is ~14.  The yardage is right as is the angle, and the notation on the postcard "La Montee de la Falaise" means "climbing the cliff" in French.  The the tee box says 15 rather than 14 must be due to either a signage error or a change in the routing, both of which were very possible.

3.  Finally compare Bryan's map to the contemporary photo it is obvious that the sea has encroached several hundred yards over the past 1000 years.  Where the 11th and 13 green and the 12th and 14th tees were 100 years ago is now sand or the Atlantic Ocean.  This is confirmed by contemporary articles I have read regarding the area and ghe Chambre d'Amour.

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 14, 2013, 04:12:18 PM
Bryan,

If we've learned anything, it's that written articles suffer in terms of accuracy.

They can be informative and accurate, but, often they're dead wrong.

The photo you posted is a perfect example.

The caption says # 14, yet the yardage marker is clear that it's NOT # 14.

We have the difficult task of trying to decipher and filter through this information and misinformation and reach prudent conclusions.

But, let me ask you this.

How could you possible play the hole pictured, once you miss your tee shot ?

It would be impossible to hit any subsequent shot, safely up the cliff, to the green.

We have learned that lesson, but it doesn't mean that it applies in this instance.  Look at the two photos I posted just above.  They are of quite different places on the property but they both are captioned "14."  The "14." most likely doesn't refer to the hole number at all.  The rest of the caption in plain English does say it is the Cliff hole.

You could play the hole like any other with a penal hazard.  Re-tee and try again. Sort of like the 17th at Sawgrass.  Given this hole and theChasm hole, clearly Dunn liked his holes tough.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 14, 2013, 04:20:41 PM
Ally,

I think that is too close to the cliff to be the 12th, which appeared to be much closer to the sea than the cliff.  Just my opinion.


Rich,

From what I've seen the Chambre d'Amour related to the whole area at the bottom of the cliffs as well as the aforesaid grotto of legend.  That area was generally pretty flat with some dunes from (non-golf) pictures I've seen; nothing for the 12th (or anything other than the Cliff hole) to climb out of.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 14, 2013, 04:22:30 PM
...................
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 14, 2013, 04:48:28 PM
Ally,

I think that is too close to the cliff to be the 12th, which appeared to be much closer to the sea than the cliff.  Just my opinion.


Rich,

From what I've seen the Chambre d'Amour related to the whole area at the bottom of the cliffs as well as the aforesaid grotto of legend.  That area was generally pretty flat with some dunes from (non-golf) pictures I've seen; nothing for the 12th (or anything other than the Cliff hole) to climb out of.



Bryan,

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss. The 12th green was only about 150 yards laterally from the top of the cliffs and a lot less to the bottom (as the cliffs didn't rise vertically) and there is an element of perspective to the photo in question. The foreground has to be a fairway seeing as there is an actual mow line. It also has to be a hogsback given that there is a false horizon in the middle of the picture. The hogsback is parallel to the line of the fairway, it then falls away to low ground (swale) before the lighter colour area to the very far left (middle) of the picture is potentially a slightly raised greensite... Walk back to the bluff which is the natural area for the road and where the 13th tee is placed.

If this hole is not the 12th, then what is it? The land matches the topo of the 12th on the routing map (from what it's possible to tell), the angles are right... It's not definitive but it's quite likely.

I agree with Rich on the "Cliff" hole but also don't understand why he might consider the 11th more likely given we've a photo of the green and given that the 12th didn't rise out of the flats...
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Rich Goodale on December 14, 2013, 04:59:14 PM
All

We do not have a picture of the 12th green, do we?  I say the 11th because it's the only one we've got!

Rich
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 14, 2013, 05:04:14 PM
All

We do not have a picture of the 12th green, do we?  I say the 11th because it's the only one we've got!

Rich

But it's that photo that rules it out for me. The green site does not match MacDonald's description. Plus he describes the 12th.

We could have a photo of the 12th green site above... Just possibly... Although the direction of the road makes me a little unsure...

Incidentally, playing along with your theory that the 11th might be the green (despite photographic evidence that seems to suggest the contrary), if the Cliff Hole was at some point No.15 in the routing, then this could indeed have been the 12th at that same point...

EDIT:

Bryan,

I am already starting to change my mind and agree with you. I think it more likely that we are looking back from half way down the 11th towards the 11th tees (with sandy path down)... The bluff represents the upper road just before it turns and the photo is taken from the inside the U-turn...
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 14, 2013, 07:07:23 PM
Bryan & Rich,

Neither you, nor anyone else has explained how you would play to the green on the cliff, on the hole shown below, after missing a tee shot.

Why not ?

That alone indicates that the green for the hole where the golfer is teeing off, is NOT up on that cliff, not far from the guy who just threw the golf bag over the edge.

Tell us, how did golfers play the hole after missing their tee shot.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 14, 2013, 07:11:25 PM
Patrick, There are plenty of accounts of the famous "Cliff" hole hole at Biarritz.  Essentially the golfer was required to play a blind shot straight up a cliff to a green on top.  If the golfer didn't make it it was a lost ball, I guess.  Same as for the Chasm.  Earlier Bryan posted an article discussing the hole.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 14, 2013, 07:27:10 PM
However, further research has indicated that the C d' A was in fact a small grotto by the shoreline (where two star-crossed lovers used to meet for romnatic trysts , and were drowned in a tidal surge in the early 19th C) located roughly in line with the tee shot on the 12th hole from Bryan's map, and very possibly conforming to the photo that Ally reproduced in the post above.  Givein that it was a 300+ yard hole up the escarpment, I still think it more likely that the 1th green (downhill to the beach) is a more likely candidate.

Rich,  I've read the legend but, as Bryan said, for golf course purposes the entire bottom area (below the cliffs) was described as the Chambre d'Amour. I've seen a number of photos of this lower area and it seems it was relatively level, with some rolls and ridges here and there.

In short,  I don't think that there is any possible way that the photo above is the 12th hole on that map, and I don't think there was any "escarpment" to play up on that 12th hole (on the map.) The map shows some contour lines, but I think they are showing a long ridge or rolling running parallel to the shoreline, which I think could possibly be the hogsback to which CBM and HJW referred.

Where are you getting the idea that the 12th tee (on the map) played up a large escarpment?   If it is just from Tommy's caption, I suggest that the photo is mislabeled or if it is correctly labeled it is from a time when the 12th hole was the cliff hole.  

Quote
All

We do not have a picture of the 12th green, do we?  I say the 11th because it's the only one we've got!

Rich

Funny, I think we can eliminate the 11th (on the map) precisely because we have photos and they don't show any of the features described.    

That said, somewhere I do have a photo labeled the 12th green , but I it is not of much help. (It doesn't show what comes before the green.)  I'll try to dig it up.
_________________________________________________________________

Ally, Interesting theory, but I think that photo was of the Cliff Hole and the hump you are seeing was the tee.   I'll try to figure out what I did with my other photos which hopefully will make this more clear.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 14, 2013, 08:33:26 PM

Patrick, There are plenty of accounts of the famous "Cliff" hole hole at Biarritz.  

Essentially the golfer was required to play a blind shot straight up a cliff to a green on top.  If the golfer didn't make it it was a lost ball, I guess.
David,

I don't think so.

In a cursory review of the R&A rules from 1899 to 1902, one couldn't declare a ball lost, unless it was lost.

In addition, in medal play, if the golfer didn't finish the hole, he was disqualified.

Further, there was no unplayable rule equivalent to today's, in that returning to the tee was not an option, and even if it was, once the second shot had been struck, returning to the tee was no longer an available option.   

Same as for the Chasm.  

Except that the "chasm" hole played over a water hazard, and there were relief options for a ball entering a water hazard.
No such water hazard was in evidence at the "cliff" hole.

Earlier Bryan posted an article discussing the hole.

Despite the author, I don't place significant credibility on the article, and would have to ask if the article was written before or after the author visited the site, and whether the article reflected the views of others, as related by the author.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 14, 2013, 11:20:47 PM

Patrick, There are plenty of accounts of the famous "Cliff" hole hole at Biarritz.  

Essentially the golfer was required to play a blind shot straight up a cliff to a green on top.  If the golfer didn't make it it was a lost ball, I guess.
David,

I don't think so.

In a cursory review of the R&A rules from 1899 to 1902, one couldn't declare a ball lost, unless it was lost.

In addition, in medal play, if the golfer didn't finish the hole, he was disqualified.

Further, there was no unplayable rule equivalent to today's, in that returning to the tee was not an option, and even if it was, once the second shot had been struck, returning to the tee was no longer an available option.   


Maybe Biarritz had a local rule to deal with the issue.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 15, 2013, 12:51:21 AM
Jim,

That's always possible, but doubtful, especially in medal play.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 15, 2013, 12:56:54 AM
Pat, I wonder how much an issue that was in the 1890s, at what I understand was mostly a resort course wealthy foreigners frequented. 
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 15, 2013, 12:59:15 AM
Patrick,  

Rules issues aside, there are multiple descriptions (and photos) of the hole, and it played straight up a cliff with the green on top.   Here is Horace Hutchinson, again, describing the hole in 1903 in Pearson's Magazine:

A little further on in the present Biarritz course there is a hazard of unusual nature. This is a cliff face opposing you, up which you have to loft the ball sixty odd feet in the air, with a full mashie shot, or something of that kind. There are many Biarritz golfers who have played there steadily yet never have ascended that giddy height—that is, never have persuaded their golf ball to mount it—and it is certain there are many who never will.

Turning to the rules issue . . . In The Happy Golfer (1914), Henry Leach also described the hole and directly addressed your rules question, Patrick.  Note that at this time, No. 8 played down into the Chambre and No. 13 was the "Cliff Hole" out of the Chambre.  (This might explain the sign on the tee box in the photo (if it is indeed a "13.")

The ascent to the higher surface has to be made at the thirteenth, and it is done at what is known to every one as the Cliff hole.

Nearly all who have never even seen it have heard of the Cliff hole of Biarritz, have studied pictures of it, and speculated upon its peculiar difficulties. No hole on the continent of Europe has nearly such a reputation; indeed, it is perhaps the only one with a special celebrity. I have been asked questions about it in America. I have seen and played it, examined it thoroughly, and thought it out. It is a queer thing, quite different from any other hole I know. It needs such a shot to play it properly as is not demanded elsewhere. And yet it requires absolute skill, the proper shot must be played and played thoroughly well, and it is practically impossible to fluke it. Why, then, should this not be reckoned a good golfing hole? The circumstances are these: The teeing ground is on the lower level, and it is only some fifty yards from the base of the cliff. The ground in between is rough and stony. The cliff here is about forty yards in height, and, if not vertical in the face, bulges outwards frowningly at the top, while a thin stream of water trickling down at one side seems to add a little more to the fearsomeness of the thing. At the top edge of the cliff there is grassy ground sloping quickly upwards for about a dozen yards until a line of wire is reached, and there the green begins. The fact that the green (which is tolerably large and in two parts, an upper and a lower) then slopes downwards away from the player does not make matters easier. Beyond it is another precipice, but wire netting is there to save the ball from this, and there is some wooden palisading to keep it out of trouble on the left. Then there is a local rule saying that if the ball reaches the top of the cliff, but does not pass the wire, it must be teed again, with loss of distance only, the man not being allowed to play it from the tee side of the wire. (He would do so at peril of toppling over the cliff!) But all these things do not make this awful hole much easier in the play. One day I sat on the edge of the cliff and watched the people playing it, and the ball that reached the green and stayed there was a rarity. It can be done. Braid and Taylor and Vardon would do it all the time, and it is no trick shot that is wanted. You might hit hard at the ground in front of the wire and make the ball trickle on, but that would call for more than human accuracy. Or you might sky your ball up to the heavens and let it fall straight down on to the green, and that would be superb. But champion Taylor would take his mashie and play, perhaps, some fifteen yards above the cliff with all the cut that he could put upon the ball, and then he would be putting for a two.  A difficult hole follows, but after that the work is easier.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 15, 2013, 01:38:41 AM
Good stuff David, although I suspect that Patrick won't be persuaded.  Sometimes he's like a dog on a bone.   ;D


Ally,

Yes, the picture makes more sense if it's looking back up the 11th.



Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 15, 2013, 01:51:32 AM
Maybe seeing is believing . . .

(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-Cliff-2.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 15, 2013, 02:28:47 AM
Pat, I wonder how much an issue that was in the 1890s, at what I understand was mostly a resort course wealthy foreigners frequented. 

Jim,

It was so much of an issue that they're still down there trying to get their ball up to the green
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 15, 2013, 02:30:34 AM
Here is a postcard purportedly from 1903 showing the whole Chambre d'Amour.  The golf course should be visible, but the quality is so poor I can't really make out anything.

(http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/237/564/628_001.jpg)


And, here's another one from 1905.  Some dune ridges clearly visible, but they look like rough and the 12th green is probably just off the picture to the right.

(http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/218/644/079_001.jpg)


And, another from 1928 when the course is clearly gone, but a hogs back is visible just beyond the building.  The building could have been built in the swale and there is anoher dune on this side of the building.

(http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/192/283/648_001.jpg)


And another, much later in 1951, taken from the opposite direction with the hogs back in the foreground and the same building in the swale.

(http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/182/139/238_001.jpg)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 15, 2013, 02:33:18 AM
Maybe seeing is believing . . .

David, actually the photos support my premise

I wonder if these photos aren't similar to those of golfers standing on the 15th tee at Pine Valley and aiming at the 16th green.

Think of the skill level required to hit that tee shot.

Then think of the consequences of a missing that tee shot.

Recovery and reaching the green would be impossible.

Also note that the caption refers to the 14th hole, not the 13th or 15th hole

No way was that a bona fide golf hole

(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-Cliff-2.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 15, 2013, 02:42:22 AM
Presumably the first picture is more or less at right angles to the line of play.  The second more along the line of play.  The cliff slopes down towards the sea quite precipitously in that area.  The second looks not so daunting and it was only 60 yards to the wire fence (presumably those are posts for the fence that are clearly visible near the top of the hill). Have you ever played a 60 - 80 yard hole?  It's a really short shot.

The articles David posted suggest that the hole was very difficult for those that played it.  Impossible for some but not all.  Get over it.  The hole was what it was.  It certainly attracted attention.

What constitutes a bona fide hole in your opinion?


Maybe seeing is believing . . .

David, actually the photos support my premise

I wonder if these photos aren't similar to those of golfers standing on the 15th tee at Pine Valley and aiming at the 16th green.

Think of the skill level required to hit that tee shot.

Then think of the consequences of a missing that tee shot.

Recovery and reaching the green would be impossible.

Also note that the caption refers to the 14th hole, not the 13th or 15th hole

No way was that a bona fide golf hole

(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-Cliff-2.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 15, 2013, 02:59:08 AM
Presumably the first picture is more or less at right angles to the line of play.  The second more along the line of play.  The cliff slopes down towards the sea quite precipitously in that area.  The second looks not so daunting and it was only 60 yards to the wire fence (presumably those are posts for the fence that are clearly visible near the top of the hill). Have you ever played a 60 - 80 yard hole?  It's a really short shot.

An 80 yard hole is not short when hitting to a green elevated high above you.
At 80 yards you'd have to have a very sharp trajectory.

And, to date you've still been unable to answer the question as to how the hole was played if the tee shot was mishit.

I have played huge drop shot par threes.

The 12th at Roxciticus comes to mind
At 178 from the white tees, a 6 or 7 iron was sufficient.
Playing from the green back up to the tee, we couldn't get close with drivers.


The articles David posted suggest that the hole was very difficult for those that played it.

The articles aren't to be relied on because they don't even get the number of the hole right.
OR, maybe they do, and that's not the "Cliff" hole.

 Impossible for some but not all.  Get over it.  The hole was what it was.

You're in no position to claim that you know how the hole was configured or how it played.
And, you have yet to explain how a golfer who missed his tee shot could ever get to the green with subsequent shots.
If you know so much about the hole why can't you answer that question ? It certainly attracted attention.

What constitutes a bona fide hole in your opinion?

A hole that can be completed during normal play


Maybe seeing is believing . . .

David, actually the photos support my premise

I wonder if these photos aren't similar to those of golfers standing on the 15th tee at Pine Valley and aiming at the 16th green.

Think of the skill level required to hit that tee shot.

Then think of the consequences of a missing that tee shot.

Recovery and reaching the green would be impossible.

Also note that the caption refers to the 14th hole, not the 13th or 15th hole

No way was that a bona fide golf hole

(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-Cliff-2.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 15, 2013, 03:10:54 AM
Patrick,

Take a look at the large blue quote above by famed golf writer Henry Leach.  I think it answers all your questions.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 15, 2013, 04:02:39 AM
David, thanks for those extra photos which show a lot. I do believe the glacé 59 slide shows that the photo I posted at the top is a reverse look up 11 rather than the cliff hole. The configuration of the sandy paths seem to back this up. Interestingly, the cliffs in question for the 14th are heavily vegetated at the time of the photo. You can see the remnants of that vegetation in a later photo and then it seems almost completely cleared by the close up photo. Was the glacé 59 slide dated, perhaps from before the golf course?

I think you have clearly identified the location of the 12th green with those final slides and as per the topi on the routing map it shows the fore dune ridge was used as a hogs back approaching the green site. Personally, I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that this is Macdonald's "Biarritz"
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Nigel Islam on December 15, 2013, 05:17:04 AM
David's post in 140 references the Cliff as being "a full mashie shot." As I recall a mashie was the equivalent of a mid iron, but not sure how far one could carry that in 1900. It would seem an 80 yard shot that steeply uphill would be described as a niblick shot to me. Anyone else find that statement worthy of dissection?
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 15, 2013, 11:45:54 AM
Ally,  Bryan posted those photos to which (I think) you are referring, and thanks to him for so doing. I hadn't seen the newer ones.   I think he said the "59" slide was dated 1903, but he doesn't seem too confident in the date.

I wish I was as confident as you that we have clearly identified Macdonald's inspiration.  I still have my doubts, and I don't think we have enough information to draw a solid conclusion.   If the only holes to choose from were the ones on that old plan, then I think the hole marked as the 12th was by far the most likely candidate, but when CBM and HJW saw the course in 1906 there were a few other holes down there as well, and it is not even absolutely clear that the 12th hole was as it was on that old map.  

In short, according to a February 1906 Golf Illustrated article No. 9 played down into the Chambre and No. 14 (the Cliff hole) played out.  So this leaves 10-13.  We don't know exactly how they were laid out, or which one was No. 12.  That said, looking at the photos and the topo lines on the map, there appears to have been at least two large roles or ridges or hogbacks down in the bottom, one on each side of the road.  Given CBM's description, it seems that the hole in question likely utilized on one of these two features.  Given that No. 12 on that map seems to match his description pretty well, it could be the hole.  If not, then there must have been another hole similarly utilizing one of those two features.  

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: BCrosby on December 15, 2013, 11:52:47 AM
I apologize in advance if this has been covered, but an account of the front nine at Biarritz from Golf, 1890, by the club secretary, includes the following description of the Chasm Hole:

"3rd Hole.—The "Chasm Hole." Long lines of cliff breaking have left a chasm, as the Poet Laureate says, and on the
edge of this chasm is the teeing ground for the third hole. The chasm is 80 yards across to the further edge, so you must
loft that much. If you top your ball and go down, you tee another and play three, as there is no playing out of the chasm.
The caddies, however, can get down and recover balls, so let not the golfer who has a frugal mind be deterred from coming
hero on that account. The green is 120 yards on from the further edge, so it may be reached easily in a drive and an iron shot.

The piece does not cover the back nine, so nothing on the Cliff Hole.

Bob
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 15, 2013, 11:59:20 AM
David,

I think this is the "Cliff" hole.

I think the other photos are taken from a side view and not the tee shot view as depicted below.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Biarritz12.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 15, 2013, 12:26:25 PM
Patrick,

It may be the cliff hole.  or it may be walk up to the Cliff hole, or it may be the upper tee to the cliff hole (I read somewhere that there were two tees and the upper tee was easier.)  Or as Ally says it may be looking back up the 11th (which later became the 9th.)  Or it may be a later version after the original cliff hole no longer existed. (I suspect that tried to find a better way out of the the bottom at some point, and have a photo of another green somewhere.)

Truth is I don't know what exactly is pictured, only that it is looking from the bottom of the Chambre up at the Cliffs.
_________________________________________________________

Bob,

Thanks for posting the letter. I considered posting it to help explain to Patrick how a lost ball might have been handled at the Cliff, but didn't want to confuse him.    In 1890 (when Golf letter published the letter) the course had not yet been expanded to 18 holes.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 15, 2013, 12:36:41 PM
Patrick, where in that picture is the tee, and where is the green? 
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 15, 2013, 01:02:24 PM
David,

There's a distinct difference between playing the chasm hole and the cliff hole.

On the chasm hole you hit your tee shot over the edge of a Cliff that's the margin for a hazard below, to a green, perched on a continuation of the cliff on the other side of that hazard.

On the Cliff hole you tee off from a lower tee, not in or over a hazard to an elevated green, hence errant tee shots were NOT deemed lost in a hazard.

Some of the descriptions mention telephone numbers or an inability to finish the hole, never is there any mention of simply taking a penalty, getting to the green and finishing the hole.

The photo below shows a sheer vertical cliff, but I doubt that the tee shot called for a direct frontal assault.

80 yards up a sheer 60 foot cliff would make it impossible to finish the hole once the tee shot was mishit or misjudged.
(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)

More importantly, if you look at the above photo you can see that the golfer is NOT aiming/playing directly toward that sheer cliff
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 15, 2013, 01:07:40 PM

Patrick, where in that picture is the tee, and where is the green? 

Green, up top

Tee, down below

The exact locations are irrelevant
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 15, 2013, 01:38:25 PM
Patrick,

I didn't post that description of the Chasm because I wanted to avoid aChasm vs. the Cliff rules debate.  For what it is worth, I don't think the Chasm was a water hazard as it didn't play over water and golfers were prohibited from playing out of it.  Regardless, I don't think it matters as to whether the Cliff hole existed.  It did exist as repeatedly described and pictured.

As for the rules issue, Leach directly addresses it:

"Then there is a local rule saying that if the ball reaches the top of the cliff, but does not pass the wire, it must be teed again, with loss of distance only, the man not being allowed to play it from the tee side of the wire. (He would do so at peril of toppling over the cliff!)"

What exactly are we arguing here?   From the numerous descriptions and photos, the hole obviously existed and it obviously played up a cliff.    Sure it created problems for bad golfers and sure the whole thing is of questionable merit, but that is why it was famous, and was apparently part of its charm.  Here is something else Leach said about the hole, that touches on the spirit of the hole despite its obvious problems:

Biarritz . . . has some holes which, as we think upon them at home in England, seem quite shockingly bad. They are not so much bad as nearly improper. And yet when we are at Biarritz we do love these holes, as do the great players without exception, and as lief would we suggest the filling up of the Cardinal bunker at Prestwick and the flattening of that range of Himalayas at the same glorious golfing place as touch an inch of the face of the Cliff hole at Biarritz. The course has the gravest faults, but it is very enjoyable to play upon in February, and in the winds that blow there one needs to be playing uncommonly well to get round in figures reasonably low.


More importantly, if you look at the above photo you can see that the golfer is NOT aiming/playing directly toward that sheer cliff

How about in this one?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/_Biarritz-Cliff.jpg)

(In fairness, I think this may be to a later version of the hole.)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 15, 2013, 02:09:54 PM
I found some of the photos I mentioned earlier.

Here is the photo identified as the 12th green, from Golf Illustrated, 1904. It doesn't provide much guidance as to the features before the green.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-GI-1904-12th-Green.jpg)

From the same Golf Illustrated.  The location of the 12th tee on the old map is somewhere above the golfers' heads.  Maybe the dark strip or maybe right next to it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-9th-tee-and-Chambre.jpg)

One more from GI in 1904  (All these photos were repeated in GI every couple of years:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-GI-1904-CdA.jpg)

One of the hole playing down into the Chambre which was the 11th on the map, but 9th in 1906 according to GI.  The green was originally way back in the corner over the road and by the ocean (next to the artificial break) but was eventually shortened so the green was short of the road.  Not sure when this happened or where the green is in this photo.   Note what looks like a short ridge right on the other side of the road.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-11th-green-12th-tee.jpg)

Another green which seems to be about where the 13th was on the old map:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-Chambre-maybe-13.jpg)

This was another hole down in the Chambre that was added sometime after the hole on the map.  Note the long ridge to the left of the tee,  If a hole played along the spine of this ridge (or another like it, it might have the characteristics described by CBM,  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-Hole-in-Chambre-2.jpg)

Here is a strange one.   It is the tee playing down into the Chambre, but notice the green behind and below the tee. I don't know whether it was approached from above or below, but I think it played up from below (see photo is last post) and it could be a later-added escape route out of the Chambre instead of the daunting Cliff hole.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-tee-into-Chambre.jpg)

Finally, here are some more photos of the Chambre itself, some of which may have been posted before, but these are comparatively sharp (although still not sharp enough.)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-Chambre-Anglet.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-Chambre-Large.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-Chambre-House.jpg)

I don't think any of these resolve the issue, but there they are.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Mike Hogan on December 15, 2013, 04:05:24 PM
It looks like in the last group of photos, the one with the gentleman that is hitting up the cliff, that there is a flag just below and to the left of the line formed by the lighter/darker colored rocks, or bricks in the cliff above.

The photo taken downwards with the tee and green below, you can see the same line in the rocks above the green in the cliff and the flag. I believe that is the green he is aiming at.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 15, 2013, 05:14:22 PM
Thanks David for this latest round of photos. I was unaware that there had been various configurations of the holes down by the beach. I am now in agreement that there is no definitive information on the inspiration for Macdonald... Or even the location of the cliff hole
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Michael Whitaker on December 15, 2013, 06:59:08 PM
Here is a photo showing the 12th and 13th holes that was posted by Alfonso Erhardt in another thread.

I am now a believer! In this photo you can see a group playing the 12th and (possibly?) the aiming post for the 13th on top of the cliff.

This provides the proper perspective for all of the other photos and puts everything into context... at least for me.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e86/alfonsoey/Biarritz_96.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 15, 2013, 08:07:47 PM
Has anyone looked into obtaining a copy of "Biarritz Golf Club - Centenaire 1888-1988"?
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 15, 2013, 08:36:50 PM
Thanks David for this latest round of photos. I was unaware that there had been various configurations of the holes down by the beach. I am now in agreement that there is no definitive information on the inspiration for Macdonald... Or even the location of the cliff hole

Definitely not quite enough information to get to a definitive result at this point.   As for definite (original) location of the Cliff Hole, that is a good question.  I have a theory (or two) and wanted to run something by Bryan, but I thought I'd try to get some sort of closure on what we know and don't about the 12th mentioned by CBM first.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 15, 2013, 10:26:15 PM
More importantly, if you look at the above photo you can see that the golfer is NOT aiming/playing directly toward that sheer cliff

How about in this one?

I don't  believe so.

Look at the lie that he's playing from.

Look at the obstacle he would have to conquer to get to the top, and from that lie.
Notice that he's NOT playing from a tee.

I believe that he's playing to an area/green below his feet.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/_Biarritz-Cliff.jpg)

(In fairness, I think this may be to a later version of the hole.)
[/quote]
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 15, 2013, 10:30:32 PM
David,

I have no doubt that the "Cliff" hole existed, I'm just not sure that it existed as some have presented/represented.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 15, 2013, 10:52:33 PM
Patrick,  I think all most have done is post photos and the descriptions of those who had actually seen and played the hole.   As for the last photo, I don't think it is too the original cliff hole either, but to a later (post Colt) version to that green in one of my photos above.  I think he is playing to just above the first rock wall.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 15, 2013, 10:54:51 PM
Here is a photo showing the 12th and 13th holes that was posted by Alfonso Erhardt in another thread.

I am now a believer! In this photo you can see a group playing the 12th and (possibly?) the aiming post for the 13th on top of the cliff.

This provides the proper perspective for all of the other photos and puts everything into context... at least for me.

I forgot about that thread. I went back and looked at that thread and there is some good stuff, but unfortunately I don't know if the suggested numbering works.  I think both Alfonso and I were working off the assumption that No. 11 played down into the Chambre, and you seem to be working off the assumption that No. 13 was the Cliff Hole out of the Chambre.  But while 11 had played down into the bottom according to Golf Illustrated from February 1906 (about when CBM was there)  No. 9 played down into the Chambre, and No. 14 played out.  So there have to be more holes than we see here, including a hole(s) playing in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 15, 2013, 11:38:08 PM

Patrick,  I think all most have done is post photos and the descriptions of those who had actually seen and played the hole.  

Yes, but when a photo is posted and the caption states that it's the 14th hole, but the yardage marker indicates it's the 13th/15th hole, one has to question the accuracy of either the caption or the photo.

As for the last photo, I don't think it is too the original cliff hole either, but to a later (post Colt) version to that green in one of my photos above.  

I think he is playing to just above the first rock wall.

I'd agree, but that would seem to indicate that it wasn't the original hole.

Even if he was playing to a green on that plateau, from that lie, that would seem to indicate that it wasn't an 80 yard par 3, wouldn't you agree ?
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 16, 2013, 01:19:55 AM
David,

I'm on my way driving to FL for the holidays which will limit my participation.  Not sure I can add much to the 12th hole as inspiration for CBM.  Just wanted to reiterate that looking at the Leven hole I would have been hard pressed to see whatever CBM saw in it.  In the case of the 12th as the Biarritz template I suspect the features were probably just as subtle.  The course by all reports was not very well built or in very good condition.

I did see another article that suggested that the Chambre holes were not used during WWI although the course was open.  So, presumably there was another rerouting in that time frame.

Vis-a-vis all the images, it's really hard to piece a coherent whole out of them that makes sense at any one point in time.

Re the 12th, although it's all circumstantial, I think I'd suggest that this 1905 postcard shows the 11th fairway going down and away and then the 12th fairway coming back to the right closer to the sea between the two dune ridges.  

(http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/218/644/079_001.jpg)


And then this admittedly much later view from the other direction with some dunes still there and what looks like a swale to me where the building is suggests that the CBM landforms could have been there.  The picture of the green you posted doesn't really show us much.  I had seen it before and couldn't get anything out of it.

(http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/182/139/238_001.jpg)


What's interesting about Alphonso's picture is that it appears to make the Chambre look very wide across.  Perhaps a wide angle lens.  This hole must have come somewhat later.  It appears to run back up under what was once the 11th tee.  I like the look of the dunes.  Maybe there were similar ones down by the sea where the 12th green is shown on the routing and as appear to be in the two photos above.  Maybe that's what CBM saw.  Maybe someday we'll find the clinching picture.  But for now it's the leading candidate.  Strange that on a course with two (in)famous holes that he should find something more appealing on a more nondescript hole, not to mention that it was in that hotbed of golf course design - Biarritz.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e86/alfonsoey/Biarritz_96.jpg)



As for the "14th" hole, I need to do a little more looking.  The "blue" description you posted mentions a back cliff/ravine too.  That would probably narrow down the location of that iteration.  The picture of people teeing off with the green benched in the cliff is really interesting.  That must have been quite an engineering feat.  Surprised there is no mention of it.  It sure doesn't match the "blue" description.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 16, 2013, 01:42:39 AM
Patrick,

Please note that many of the pictures posted here have numbers in their titles - 81, 8, 242, 505, 27 etc. Clearly they do not denote hole numbers on the golf course.  They must have had meaning to the photographer or the publisher, but not about the golf course.  I was mistaken when I first inferred that the 14 on that picture was the hole unlike you I don't have a problem admitting when I got something wrong.  If you want to believe that the pictures show people playing into unseen dells or that the carry up the hill was impossible or the hole couldn't be completed, carry on.  I don't agree.

I don't want to go on a rules digression.  The rules of golf at the time mainly contemplated match play with a few additions for stroke play.  The early R&A rules obviously didn't contemplate cliffs and rocky ground.  By 1902 the R&A created a rule for unplayable lies that would have been applicable.  And, as David has posted there were local rules.  And, most of the tourists were probably not playing formal medal competitions.  It seems from the reports that people found a way to fnish - probably even (shockingly  :o :o :o) picking up there ball.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 16, 2013, 05:03:52 AM
What would really help is if someone (David or Bryan) gives a quick timeline with what we know regards the chambre holes, only in terms of numbering and routing (highlighted as possible or confirmed).... Macdonald visited in 1906 did someone say?.... When was that routing map we've been working off dated from?... Incidentally, on that map it is not at all clear where the 14th (Cliff Hole at the time) plays from and too... At what date was that photo from Alfonso taken because it clearly shows a hole that is not on our sole routing map... That kind of stuff...

Unless David or Bryan wish to continue their research and collation behind the scenes which seems perfectly reasonable also...
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 16, 2013, 09:46:10 PM
Patrick,

Please note that many of the pictures posted here have numbers in their titles - 81, 8, 242, 505, 27 etc. Clearly they do not denote hole numbers on the golf course.  They must have had meaning to the photographer or the publisher, but not about the golf course.  I was mistaken when I first inferred that the 14 on that picture was the hole

unlike you I don't have a problem admitting when I got something wrong.  

The reason that you don't have a problem with it is because you're so used to being wrong.
It's almost second nature for you. ;D

If you want to believe that the pictures show people playing into unseen dells or that the carry up the hill was impossible or the hole couldn't be completed, carry on.  I don't agree.

No surprise there, and not surprisingly, you're wrong again.
The caption, with the picture, clearly states, the "Cliff" hole, and we know that the cliff hole was # 14.
Yet, the yardage marker indicates that the photo is actually of hole # 13 or # 15.
Hence, while that sheer cliff is in the backround, the golfer is not teeing off with the intent of reaching to the top of it.

I don't want to go on a rules digression.  
The rules of golf at the time mainly contemplated match play with a few additions for stroke play.  

Also wrong.
The 1902 version/edition of the R&A rules specifically reference medal play.

The early R&A rules obviously didn't contemplate cliffs and rocky ground.

Of course they did, unless you think that they were compiled in a clairvoyant sense, with ANGC in mind.

By 1902 the R&A created a rule for unplayable lies that would have been applicable.

I cited that rule.
There was no extension, back, keeping the point of relief in line with the position of the ball and the flag stick.
There was no returning to the tee (location of prior shot)
The only relief was basically as close as possible to the area of concern.

And, as David has posted there were local rules.  

Yes, but only when you reached a certain point.

And, most of the tourists were probably not playing formal medal competitions.  It seems from the reports that people found a way to fnish - probably even (shockingly  :o :o :o) picking up there ball.

"Tourists" wouldn't be entered in competitions,, match or medal, and finishing a hole, and completing a round, had to be the goal of every golfer, so for you to casually brush off, essentially skipping a hole and not posting a score, seems, unlikely and disingenuous.

Did you skip a hole and not post your scores when you played Streamsong ? ;D


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 16, 2013, 09:55:32 PM
Bryan,

On one hand you want to dismiss Charles Blair Macdonald's written word and on the other, insert your interpretation of blurred or unclear photos.

I can understand your doubt, based upon the ambiguity or lack of definition in the photos.

So, you dismiss my interpretation of some photos, yet elevate your interpretation of blurred photos to the highest level, despite your interpretation being in direct conflict with CBM's written words. ;D

Interesting perspective. ;D
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 17, 2013, 01:00:45 AM
Patrick,

As usual I have no idea what you're blathering about.  Feel free to carry on.

As for Streamsong, I should be there the day after tomorrow.  I'm sure I'll finish all the holes, although most probably the round will not be totally compliant with all the rules of golf.   So, no doubt I would have found a way to finish Biarritz too.  ;D  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 17, 2013, 01:38:05 AM
Final try at positioning the 14th hole based on the stick routing.  Although barely visible in this image, the 14th goes straight up the cliff more or less parallel with the coastline.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/BiarritzPlanUndated.jpg)


The hole was 80 yards long so I've placed it on the Google aerial as below.  The green site fits the "blue" description David posted.  There is cliff in front and also behind.  It also turns out to slope away from the line of play as described in the "blue" article.  First the aerial with the hole marked; then a view looking up from the road (where an 80 yard tee would be); and then an image to the right of the green and behind.  The benches and the person standing on the point may both have been on the green.  Note that the land slopes away to the back.  The tee in this picture would be down the cliff to the left side of the picture through the bush.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/0d8b6f80-a8a0-4bab-b9c3-27e98b0543b9.jpg~original)


(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzcomingoutofchambredamour.jpg~original)


(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/0d8b6f80-a8a0-4bab-b9c3-27e98b0543b9.jpg~original)


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on December 17, 2013, 04:26:23 AM
Bryan, again that is stunning thank you for all the hard work.



Just to be clear the green is half way up the cliff and then you walked up the rest of the way to the 15th tee?

Today the elevations are
Land just off beach 9m   (most likely the level before development?)
Car Park 17m   (where you have the tee)
Green  18m
Top of Cliff between approx. 30 to 39m.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 17, 2013, 05:19:03 AM
Tony,

Not that Google Earth elevations are that accurate… But having had a look, I see the holes configured as follows:

Cliff Hole plays up a few metres elevation to about 23 or 25m (maybe Bryan's green site is a little too far left looking at routing map?)…. then walk up hill (not cliff) only to about 28 or 29m for 15th tee…. Then 15th hole plays straight uphill along the side of the ridgeline to about 40m at the green site. This hole would likely have had a slightly blind tee shot.

Well done Bryan – you’ve pinpointed the cliff hole location from the routing map we have, at which point it was hole 14. Now that routing map needs to be dated and other configurations around that time need to be identified I guess… Is there any info to do this?

Incidentally - I'd be surprised if that green (14th) and tee (15th) were not somewhat identifiable by anyone examining the location.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 17, 2013, 10:18:45 AM
Tony, Ally,

I don't think the Google elevations are that accurate on the microscale. I'd estimate that the green site is on the top plateau aand is maybe 60 feet above the parking lot.  A later iteration of the hole might have had the green on a ledge part way up as per one of the pictures David posted.  I'll have to look tonight and see if I can place that.  Ally, you may be right and the green might have been a little right of where I put it.  I think the 15th tee was probably near where the picture from behind the green was taken from.

David thinks the routing map is about 1893.  I think it is somewhere between there and 1897.  David has previously posted some info about previous configurations but nothing definitive that would locate/relocate the 3rd, 12, or 14th.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 17, 2013, 02:12:32 PM
I think Bryan probably has the date of the map about correct. Dunn expanded the course to 18 holes around 1892 or 1893, but I don't think the holes were added in the Chambre for a few years after.   The parts of the map with contours (the Grouse Moor and the Chambre) represent the areas that were added (or changed as was the case with the Grouse Moor) in the mid to late 1890s.

Ally, as for the holes in the Chambre, the quick and dirty of it as that originally the 11th played down, and the 14th played out, as shown on the map.   At some point before 1904, the course was changed again, so that No. 9 played down, and the 14th played out.  In other words, two holes were added down below.  CBM saw the course in early 1906 and according to a February 1906 Golf Illustrated article, No. 9 played down, and No. 14 played up the Cliff.    At some later point, the layout changed further, so the the 8th played down and the 13th played out.  There may have been other variations as well, but if the GI article is to be trusted, then when CBM was there in 1906. the ninth played down and No. 14 was the Cliff hole.

Bryan,  I am pretty sure that other green built into the side of the cliff was from later, after the Colt changes.   I've seen a map that shows a hole playing from the bottom of the Chambre to a point next to or just below the sharp bend in the road down, and this green seems to match that location.   The later date would also help explain the heavy engineering present in the photo.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 17, 2013, 11:08:17 PM
One more current photo of the 14th Cliff hole location, this one from 90* to the line of play.  It matches up nicely with one of the old ones David posted, except that the teeing area has been flattened and turned into a parking lot.

David,  I can't place where that other iteration of the 14th green was on the current map.  That part of the cliff is now covered in bush that hides any ledges or plateaus that might be there.  Or the cliff may have eroded in that area.


(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)


(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/13f65267-71a6-4da8-b3c3-27dbdcc286e2.jpg~original)


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 18, 2013, 03:09:12 AM
Bryan,

I'm having a difficult time matching up the aerials in # 176 with the ground level photos in 181.

They're just not right.

The angle and what's depicted in the ground level photos don't correlate to the aerials

If the ground level photos were taken from the area of the white vans in the parking lot, then the sheer white cliffs behind the golfer don't match up.

In addition, your statement that the sheer cliff is covered in bushes is beyond speculative, it's wishful thinking to support your conclusions.

The other unknown is that we don't know if the "as built" matches up with the schematic.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 18, 2013, 03:42:03 AM
David,

Thanks for the approximate timeline. That makes it a little clearer....

So by the time Macdonald visited, there were effectively two extra holes inside the chambre... That must have been when the hole depicted on Alfonso's photo dates from for that land must have been used if 5 or 6 holes were crowded down in that area....

Got me thinking whether the heavily engineered plateau on a retaining wall green site (the first example of modern day target golf design, perhaps?) shown in post 159 was actually a later iteration of the "cliff" hole out of the chambre or whether it was actually another hole that kept the play within the low flats... Certainly seems to be in a different location to the early iteration that Bryan posted above which ties with the routing plan....
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 18, 2013, 11:49:11 AM

Bryan,

If we assume that the golfer in the upper picture is a lefty, look at how he's positioned on his follow thru.
Also note where the caddie and spectator appear to be looking.
None of them, neither the golfer, caddie or spectator are looking toward the cliff.

They're all looking straight ahead, away from or parallel to the cliff.

When you match up the aerial with the ground level photo, it leads me to believe that perhaps the "cliff" hole was built other than as it's depicted in the schematic.

The other thing that I noticed is that # 12 lists as 300 yards and # 14 as 80 yards, but, when I measure # 14 it appears to be about 1/3 the lenght of # 12, not approximately 1/4, so, again, I have to question the accuracy of the schematic.  You're good at measuring, so how did # 14 and # 12 compare for you.

Lastly, the schematic seems to indicate that the 14th ran parallel to the steep/sheer cliffs.

One has to wonder, if in fact the photo showing the green perched on the walled plateau, wasn't the original green.

Since you'll have very little to do at night at Streamsong, this should keep you occupied. ;D


(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)


(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/13f65267-71a6-4da8-b3c3-27dbdcc286e2.jpg~original)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/BiarritzPlanUndated.jpg)




Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 18, 2013, 12:03:44 PM
Patrick,

As usual I have no idea what you're blathering about.  Feel free to carry on.

As for Streamsong, I should be there the day after tomorrow.  I'm sure I'll finish all the holes, although most probably the round will not be totally compliant with all the rules of golf.   So, no doubt I would have found a way to finish Biarritz too.  ;D

Bryan,

It was in the teens again last night.
Rumors have it that it's in the 80's and 70's at Streamsong.

Just let us know how many dozen balls you go through on # 7 Blue.

Also, just for the fun of it, when no one is looking, tee up a ball in front of the green on # 7 Blue and try to hit it back to the 7th tee and let us know how many more dozens you go through.

Enjoy sunny Florida and the golf at Streamsong and report back to us. 
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 18, 2013, 03:59:57 PM
I've tried to follow this thread, and commend Brian, David and others for the information they've put forth.  Unfortunately, it reads as a bit of a muddled mess, mostly due to the sidetracks, obfuscation and (un?)intentional distraction that has been put forth of late.

What started as an examination of the current state of the ground that once housed the the roots of the word that has become synonymous with a certain style of par 3 hole has devolved into an indecipherable overload of information.  If we are truly trying to figure out what CBM had in mind as the inspiration for the Biarritz template, I think it is important to lay out what he would have experienced during his potential visits to the site in 1902, 1904 or 1906.

I'd like to put aside the photos and non-contemporaneous schematics for now.  I'm going to present a series of contemporaneous accounts of Biarritz from the years leading up to 1902.

I apologize if this is repetitive of ground already covered, but I'm aiming for completeness of the record over the cherry-picking key facts.  If you feel that this doesn't belong here at this point in the conversation and you'd like me to move this to another separate thread, I'd be happy to do so.

To start, here is an early description of the course from 1890:

December 5, 1890 – Golf, A Weekly Record of the Royal and Auncient – Letter to the Editor from C. de Lacy-Lacy

http://books.google.com/books?id=IIwXAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA185&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KvexUpveNKWIyAGnrYGIAw&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

“Our club, which is getting on for three years old…The hazards are numerous and varied – the Bay of Biscay being one of our largest….for although this is a sea-side place, our links are more of the nature of an inland course, being situated high up, many feet above the sea level….Our resident professional, Willie Dunn, late of North Berwick, is always on hand to give lessons…

The following is a brief account of the nine holes…:

1st Hole – The “Pigeon Hole,” so called from its being near the pigeon-shooting house.  A fair drive brings you to the edge of some rough, broken ground, covered with clumps of sedge grass.  160 yards from the tee; a cleek, or brassy shot will easily carry the rough ground, which is about 80 yards in extent, and a short iron shot will be probably wanted to reach the green, which is 300 yards from the tee.

2nd Hole – The “Sea Hole.”  A good drive will get you on towards the corner of the road, which is 200 yards from the tee; from here a full iron shot will reach the green.  A careful approach is wanted here, as the hole is on a strip of turf, 30 yards wide, between the road and the edge of the cliff; a ball pulled round to the left will go over the cliff into the Bay of Biscay, a ball sent to much to the right will drop out of bounds into some cultivated land, which entails loss of stroke and distance, while too gay a shot in the right direction will land you in some whins beyond the hole.  The hole is 260 yards.

3rd Hole – The “Chasm Hole.”  “Long lines of cliff breaking have left a chasm,” as the Poet Laureate says, and on the edge of this chasm is the teeing ground for the third hole.  The chasm is 80 yards across to the further edge, so you must loft that much.  If you top your ball and go down, you tee another and play three, as there is no playing out of the chasm.  The caddies, however, can get down and recover balls, so let not the golfer who has a frugal mind be deterred from coming here on that account.  The green is 120 yards on from the further edge, so it may be reached easily in a drive and an iron shot.

4th Hole – The “Long Hole.”  Ten yards in front of the tee is a large and “hairy” hedge, then comes a skittle ground and then a corner of a cultivated field, which is out of bounds, so a topped or foozled ball entails the loss of stroke and distance.  But 60 yards clears all these impediments, and after the teed shot there are no formidable hazards to be encountered, only a disused road with a small ditch on each side, which runs parallel with the line to the hole for some distance.  This hole is 480 yards.

5th Hole – The “Punch-bowl Hole.”  Any drive over 120 yards will clear a bank and narrow land, which crosses the line to the hole; a good brassy shot will then bring you somewhere near the Punchbowl, a deep circular pit, with nearly perpendicular sides and about thirty yards in diameter.  This hazard is in the direct line to the hole, and some 300 yards from the tee, and 80 yards in front of the hole.  The green may be reachin in two good drives and an iron shot, and is 400 yards from the tee.

6th Hole – “Shand’s.”  A fair drive of 160 yards brings you to the edge of “Shand’s Ravine,” called after our President, Lord Shand; a cleek or brassy shot will take you over, but the lies are not bad if you get in, and a short approach shot will lay you on the green.  This hole is 320 yards.

7th Hole – The “Hole Across.”  This is an iron shot of about 115 yards across what used to be a maize field, and if the ball drops on the green this hole may be done, and often is, in two.

8th Hole – The “Dell Hole.”  This hole is also a short one, being about 160 yards, a foozled ball is punished by bad lies, and in front of the hole is a deepish dell about forty yards across, but which is easy to play out of if you drop in, as many do.

9th Hole – The “Home Hole.” – This wants an accurately directed teed shot, as there is the Punchbowl on the right, and the Dell on the left, both about 130 yards from the tee; but having avoided these hazards, you have good lying ground for 200 yards, then a narrow lane, with deep banks to cross, and 80 yards to the hole.  This hole is 360 yards.”


Not only are the hole names wonderfully descriptive, they are remarkably reminiscent of the names of other famous holes around the world.  

So what does this tell us.

1.  The course opened with 9 holes and had 9 holes three years into its existence.

2.  All of the holes were on the cliff top level, with no holes located in the Chambre D'Amour at this time.

3.  As of 1890, Willie Dunn was the resident professional.

4.  The original version of the Chasm Hole played around 200 yards (an 80 yard carry, plus another 120 to the green) and seemingly as a par 4 (or at least a hole where two shots to the green were not out of the ordinary).  Whether or not the hole played directly over any water is a question, as caddies could retrieve balls that did not make the carry.  

More to follow...
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 18, 2013, 04:02:49 PM
A bit more information on the date of that map.  The golf club purchased the Chambre d'Amour in August of 1894, so I'd expect the map to be from sometime around then.   One thing interesting about the map is that there appear to be all additional lines, marks, and erase marks both in and out of the chambre, as if changes were being made and on the map as they were being made on the course itself.  

Ally,

As for the holes in the chambre when CBM was there, it looks as of there was the one hole down (the 9th), then four in the bottom (10-13), then the Cliff hole (14) out.

As for the the heavily engineered green with the retaining wall, I am pretty sure that this hole was part of the changes made in the mid-1920's pursuant to Colt's suggestions.   Here is a map from around 1931 showing No. 6 playing from down in the chambre up to that location.  It might roughly correspond to the photo posted earlier that you thought was looking back up the hole playing down into the Chambre.  It is definitely a different location than the earlier Cliff hole.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-1931.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 18, 2013, 04:05:00 PM
Good idea Sven.  

As for the timing of CBM's site visit(s) he discussed playing the course on his 1906 trip with Whigham, but makes no mention of having played it before then.  

One problem you might run into is that many of what was written seems to be by Hutchinson, and it is largely repetitive of what he wrote after having been there in 1893.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 18, 2013, 04:07:20 PM
Next, a series of accounts from a few years later:

April 1, 1893 – The Saturday Review of Politics, Literature, Science and Art – article entitled “Continental Golf”

http://books.google.com/books?id=O4w_AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA344&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KvexUpveNKWIyAGnrYGIAw&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

“For, to say nothing of the hazards of the first hole, the second needs a loft, well pitched over a road with a bank on either side, and the ball must not be allowed to run, or it will go down the steepest of steep places into the sea, and never be recovered….Next hole, more horrible still, there is a chasm of precipitous sides, whose flooring is the thundering Atlantic, which he mush needs drive over from the tee….The lies at Biarritz, especially on the new holes, are rough, shockingly rough.”

Oct. 1894 – Blackwoods magazine – Horace Hutchinson

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y_kKxB7PPDkC&pg=PA557&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KvexUpveNKWIyAGnrYGIAw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

“[Discussing the 2nd hole] And you dare not harden your heart and resolve to be past, for if you are much past – five-and-twenty yards past – you are over the edge of a tremendous sea-cliff hundreds of feet high, and both ball and hole are irretrievable.  When you have putted out on this hole successfully, you tee off on the edge of the chasm which is a famous feature of Biarritz links.  The sea thunders away at the chasm’s floor, and across it, from brink to brink, you must go, for disaster is fatal, and there is no way round – no way, at least, that is worth the going.  But, after all, the chasm should be appalling only to the very faint-hearted, or the very feeble.  A stout half iron-shot would send the ball across.  It is only the frowning aspect of the sheer cliffs that makes it terrible, and in point of difficulty it is not a circumstance to the approach to the second hole.  

In the inception of golf at Biarritz, nine holes were the extent of the course.  Latterly it has been enlarged to eighteen, and the new nine are still a little “in the rough.”

…he will find in Willie Dunn a very obliging and fairly efficient clubmaker…

[Comparing St. Jean de Luz to Biarritz]  One tee-shot presents features like those of the Biarritz chasm.


Here, we learn:

1.  New holes were built on the course, extending it to 18 holes.

2.  These accounts suggest the Chasm hole played over the Atlantic, adding some color to the angle of the drive.  The hole is still described as a shorter carry, with a "stout half-iron" being enough club to make the traverse.

3.  Willie Dunn was still the pro.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 18, 2013, 04:11:24 PM
This is where we might get into some trouble.   If one looks at the Saturday Review article and the Blackwood article, they both seem to have been written by the same guy - Horace Hutchinson.   Hutchinson was there in 1893, but i don't think he was there in 1894, so I don't know that we can treat the information from October 1894 as a new account of the state of the course.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 18, 2013, 04:15:51 PM
And more from 1898 and 1899:

1898 – The Golfing Pilgrim on Many Links – Horace Hutchinson

http://books.google.com/books?id=ufYXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KwKyUpatL-mQyAGblYDgCQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

“When you have putted out this hole, you tee off on the edge of the chasm which used to be a famous feature of Biarritz links.  The sea thunders away at the chasm’s floor, and across it, from brink to brink, you had to go, for disaster was fatal, and there was no way round – no way, at least, that was worth going.  But, after all, the chasm should have appalled only to the very faint-hearted, or the very feeble.  A stout half-iron shot would have sent the ball across…In the inception of golf at Biarritz, nine holes were the extent of the course.”

December 8, 1899 – Golf Illustrated – Horace Hutchinson

http://books.google.com/books?id=Qs0aAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&source=bl&ots=I7RRTb-w1c&sig=zCYHpeRmAGPo80fQ23FhuXlkFO0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HfCxUp-dN8LOyAHGloHQCQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

“In the last few years there has been an alteration in the disposition of the course, so that there are now three holes on that lower ground known as the chamber d’amour….The first of the illustrations shows a very well-known player on the Biarritz green preparing to drive down the cliff into this lower ground of the chamber d’amour….A principal feature of the Biarritz Golf course has been its Chasm.  The Chasm hole is not quite as it used to be.  It used to mean a drive off from a spot near where the putter in the second illustration is addressing his ball, and the hole lay at the other side of the yawning gulf which may be understood to lie beyond the present green.  As things are today, that putter has approached the present green with an iron shot over another and a shorter chasm.  The penalties of a foozled shot are no less heavy than they used to be, but the iron will now reach the hole which the driver would seldom reach before….The little series of illustrations, it will be seen, gives a good idea of what the new holes at Biarritz are.  The rest of the course is much as the visitor of three years ago and previously will remember it.”

Our takeaway:

1.  Hutchinson describes the Chasm Hole in the past tense.  Its almost a word for word recitation of his earlier description, but now his language has been changed to tell us the hole is no longer.

2.  The 1899 account clearly notes the changes to the course, including changes to the Chasm Hole, including it seemingly changing from a par 4 into a par 3.

3.  We get the first mention of holes (3) located in the Chambre.  

4.  The 1899 article has a few photos of the course as referenced in the writing.  I believe a few of them have been posted previously.  If I can match them up from earlier threads, I'll try to attach them here.

Edit:  This is the "second illustration" referenced in the 1899 article.  Here's the text describing it (copied from above):  "A principal feature of the Biarritz Golf course has been its Chasm.  The Chasm hole is not quite as it used to be.  It used to mean a drive off from a spot near where the putter in the second illustration is addressing his ball, and the hole lay at the other side of the yawning gulf which may be understood to lie beyond the present green.  As things are today, that putter has approached the present green with an iron shot over another and a shorter chasm.  The penalties of a foozled shot are no less heavy than they used to be, but the iron will now reach the hole which the driver would seldom reach before."

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1899Chasm_zps13ff15fc.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1899Chasm_zps13ff15fc.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 18, 2013, 04:17:46 PM
This is where we might get into some trouble.   If one looks at the Saturday Review article and the Blackwood article, they both seem to have been written by the same guy - Horace Hutchinson.   Hutchinson was there in 1893, but i don't think he was there in 1894, so I don't know that we can treat the information from October 1894 as a new account of the state of the course.  

David:

I agree that knowing when the various authors (mostly Hutchinson) were on site is important.  However, for this exercise I think the key point is the change in his description from the early 1890's to later in the decade.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 18, 2013, 04:29:02 PM
Finally, two excerpts taken from after the turn of the century:

1902 – The Golfing Annual

http://books.google.com/books?id=5M5LAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KvexUpveNKWIyAGnrYGIAw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

“The course of eighteen holes (par, 68), abound with hazards of every description, a large chasm by the sea being the principal feature.“

1903 – Pearson’s Magazine – Bunkers I Have Visited – Horace Hutchinson

http://books.google.com/books?id=PbERAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KwKyUpatL-mQyAGblYDgCQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

"The most magnificent and terrifying thing in the nature of a water hazard that ever has come within the experience of the present scribbler undoubtedly is the “Chasm,” as it used to be called, at Biarritz.  By bad luck and owing to the encroachments of the French equivalent for the jerry builder, we have to write of this place in the past tense.  It still exists, but for the golfer it is no longer.  There are houses both on the side on which he used to tee, and again on the side on which he used to putt.  But still the Bay of Biscay comes thundering in up the chasm, and the golfer of to-day can look and wonder at the fearful terrors that awaited those of former times who had any habit of topping off the tee.

The length of carry from one side to the other of the chasm was quite inconsiderable – a half-iron shot or so would have compassed it – but there was a hideous moral effect and terror in the Atlantic tumbling and rumbling at the foot of the high precipitous cliffs.  You cannot measure these effect by material feet and yards.  They take a more subtle gauge.  

A little further on in the present Biarritz course there is a hazard of unusual nature.  This is a cliff face opposing you, up which you have to loft the ball sixty odd feet in the air, with a full mashie shot, or something of that kind.  There are many Biarritz golfers who have played there steadily yet never have ascended that giddy height – that is, never have persuaded their golf ball to mount it – and it is certain there are many who never will.”


Conclusions:

1.  Unless CBM showed up before 1902, the ground that contained the original Chasm Hole was covered with housing.  While not conclusive, this casts a large shadow over the thought that his inspiration was in any way connected to layout of the original version of the Chasm Hole.  The focus of any investigation should be entirely on the new version of the hole, as it was played over the second chasm as referenced in the 1899 article above.

2.  Unsurprisingly, the accounting of the original hole is in accord with the earlier descriptions.

3.  We get a reference to the Cliff Hole, but that is a conversation for a later time.

4.  The description in the Golfing Annual provides little guidance.  It could be an outdated account, or it could be in reference to the new version of the Chasm Hole.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 18, 2013, 04:37:36 PM
The club's website (http://www.golfbiarritz.com/en/parcours/parcours-1896) has an image of a map of the area of the course with a date of 1896.  I don't think I've seen this image elsewhere, and unfortunately it is too small to really be useful. If anyone else has a larger version, please post it.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/parcours-1896_large_zps41756d39.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/parcours-1896_large_zps41756d39.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 18, 2013, 05:15:52 PM
One final point for now.  I've seen references to a "winter course" and a "summer course" at Biarritz.  One wonders if the holes were possibly reconfigured for some reason during the different seasons.

This could possibly be the cause for the confusion regarding the numbering of different holes in many of the photographs contained in the thread.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 18, 2013, 05:34:04 PM
Here is the 1896 map. I believe it just shows the land the golf club owned (shaded) at this point.  (Note that the Chambre seems to be shaded.)  Trouble is that they also were still using leased land to connect the various plots.  

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-Map-1896.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 18, 2013, 06:22:23 PM
David:

I have a hard time reconciling the various photos of the old version of the Chasm Hole with the coastline and cliff edge as portrayed in that 1896 map.  My guess is that the map was lacking in detail.  

By my reckoning, the hole should have been near the turn in the coastline just above where "sud" appears on the compass.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 18, 2013, 06:39:26 PM
So where does this leave us?

Before getting to the descriptions of the influences from Biarritz as described by CBM and Whigham, I wanted to point out a couple of things.

First, as Brian smartly pointed out earlier in the thread, the schematic of the hole noting three tee boxes from different eras playing to the same green is flawed.  The hole that CBM may have seen played to an entirely different green than the original Chasm Hole as laid out by Willie Dunn, and from an entirely different tee location.  Perhaps much of the confusion lies in the relative similarity of the yardages of the original Chasm and the as-built Biarritz templates on this side of the pond.  Perhaps not.

Second, I find no references to the original Chasm Hole being numbered as the 12th hole, a hole number often thrown out as the number for the hole that served as CBM's inspiration.   It would make sense that 3 would become 12 if the nines were reversed, but I have yet to read any accounting of this having happened.  Not ruling it out, just haven't seen it.  (Note:  the winter/summer course delineation I described above was from 1920, and probably had no relation to the early versions of the course.)

Third, the version of the course in existence from 1902 to 1906 (using a broad range of time for CBM's visit) contained the holes in the Chambre D'Amour.  Whether it was 3 or 5 or 6 holes that played into and out of the Chambre at this time is something I have not yet verified.

I'm going to search for the various descriptions by CBM and Whigham of what they saw at Biarritz, but if anyone has them handy I'd greatly appreciate you adding them in.

Sven

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 18, 2013, 06:57:55 PM
See Post 83.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 18, 2013, 07:10:00 PM
All of this is copied from David's post earlier in the thread:

CBM and Whigham visited Biarritz (with Arnaud Massy) in early 1906 on their tour of great courses in preparation for the creation of NGLA, and CBM  mentioned what became known as his Biarritz concept shortly thereafter in a letter printed in a June 20, 1906 NY Sun article about his recent trip abroad:

"The best holes have not been found on the five British championship links alone.  . . . The idea for one hole comes from Biarritz.  The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated into my selection."  

CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:

"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."

H.J. Whigham repeated this early understanding in 1913 when describing  the inspiration for Piping Rock's Biarritz:  

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 19, 2013, 12:14:45 AM
So we are left with the task of trying to identify what hole on the course CBM was referring to when he discussed the 12th at Biarritz.

At this point, I think it makes sense to refer to one of the course maps that has been posted before by David:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps01911918.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps01911918.jpg.html)

Notice the area on the map identified as the Grouse Moor.  

In 1899, the following appeared in Country Life Magazine (http://books.google.com/books?id=P0NOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA352&dq=biarritz+grouse+moor&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W32yUsCzM-2MyAHg74HYCQ&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20grouse%20moor&f=false):

"It is true that many of the holes have been lost to the golfer, and taken by the builder.  The famous "chasm" has gone; but there is still a chasm - an iron shot hole.  Moreover, the "grouse moor," as it was profanely called, is no only crossed twice instead of four times, for which many will be sincerely grateful.  To make up for many losses, there are four or five new holes below the cliff which the old fourteenth green approached."

The description in this 1899 article matches what we see on the map.  Two holes over the "grouse moor" and depending how you look at it, four or five holes in the Chambre (either 11 through 14 or 15).  

In an earlier thread, David expounded on the various reports of how the holes in the Chambre were configured in subsequent years:

- December 8, 1899. Golf Illustrated. The 11th plays down the cliff, the 14th is the Cliff hole up.   Four holes.
- November 4, 1904. Golf Illustrated ("Piscator.") The 9th hole played down into the Chambre d'Amour (335 yds to a green near the Sea.) The 14th ("Cliff" hole) was an iron shot up the cliff.   Six holes.
- February 2, 1906. Golf Illustrated Pictorial.  The 9th hole still reportedly the hole playing down the cliff.
- February 14, 1908. Golf Illustrated.  The 8th hole reportedly the hole playing down the cliff.  The 13th hole reportedly played out.
- February 26, 1909.  Golf Illustrated.  The 8th hole reportedly the playing down the cliff.  The 13th hole reportedly played out.

What remains constant throughout these reports is that the 12th hole was in the Chambre D'Amour.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 19, 2013, 12:26:09 AM
I see lots of new posts I haven't been able to look at yet, but I wanted to try to put Patrick's mind at ease relative to the pictures of the 14th Cliff Hole.

Here's a revised aerial where I've moved te tee a little left and the green a little right.  I've also marked where I think the new and old photos were taken from.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/cf1ee9e3-6e23-44ad-b0f4-a5e7086b5557.jpg~original)


The original behind the tee photo was taken from where I've marked "B Old".  The modern version is marked "B New" and is from a little closer and probably right on top of the old tee.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e86/alfonsoey/Biarritz_14.jpg)


(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/1115b031-8329-4045-ad6b-81f77ff4981c.jpg~original)


The other old picture I believe was taken from aside the line of play from a spot I've marked as "A Old" on the aerial.  The new picture from abou the same angle is marked "A New".  

(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)


(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/13f65267-71a6-4da8-b3c3-27dbdcc286e2.jpg~original)


I think the new and old images are remarkably similar.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 19, 2013, 05:37:31 AM

1903 – Pearson’s Magazine – Bunkers I Have Visited – Horace Hutchinson

http://books.google.com/books?id=PbERAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KwKyUpatL-mQyAGblYDgCQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

"The most magnificent and terrifying thing in the nature of a water hazard that ever has come within the experience of the present scribbler undoubtedly is the “Chasm,” as it used to be called, at Biarritz.  By bad luck and owing to the encroachments of the French equivalent for the jerry builder, we have to write of this place in the past tense.  It still exists, but for the golfer it is no longer.  There are houses both on the side on which he used to tee, and again on the side on which he used to putt.  But still the Bay of Biscay comes thundering in up the chasm, and the golfer of to-day can look and wonder at the fearful terrors that awaited those of former times who had any habit of topping off the tee.

The length of carry from one side to the other of the chasm was quite inconsiderable – a half-iron shot or so would have compassed it – but there was a hideous moral effect and terror in the Atlantic tumbling and rumbling at the foot of the high precipitous cliffs.  You cannot measure these effect by material feet and yards.  They take a more subtle gauge.  



Sven,

Does this indicate that the second iteration of the chasm hole (as per your previous posts and Bryan's google earth illustration earlier) was also no longer in existence by 1903? It states that both the former tee site (i.e. new green site) and former green site had succumbed to housing... It certainly suggests it anyway....

Either way, the chasm is definitely not CBM's inspiration... It is the development of those facts that hold most interest to this thread...

Thanks,
Ally
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 19, 2013, 01:32:22 PM
While examining the early 18 hole routing map, note that some of the holes are named in the box in the top left.  Below I've tried to match the information from the map with the descriptions contained in the 1890 letter to the editor from the club secretary describing the original 9 hole layout.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps01911918.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps01911918.jpg.html)

Letter - 1st Hole - The "Pigeon Hole" - 300 yards - A fair drive brings you to the edge of some rough, broken ground, covered with clumps of sedge grass.  160 yards from the tee; a cleek, or brassy shot will easily carry the rough ground, which is about 80 yards in extent, and a short iron shot will be probably wanted to reach the green.
Map - 1st Hole - 325 yards
Probably close to the same hole.

Letter - 2nd Hole - The "Sea Hole" - 260 yards - A good drive will get you on towards the corner of the road, which is 200 yards from the tee; from here a full iron shot will reach the green.  A careful approach is wanted here, as the hole is on a strip of turf, 30 yards wide, between the road and the edge of the cliff; a ball pulled round to the left will go over the cliff into the Bay of Biscay, a ball sent to much to the right will drop out of bounds into some cultivated land, which entails loss of stroke and distance, while too gay a shot in the right direction will land you in some whins beyond the hole.
Map - 2nd Hole - 250 yards
Probably close to the same hole.

Letter - 3rd Hole - The "Chasm Hole"
Map - 3rd Hole - The Chasm - 90 yards
The letter notes this hole was around 200 yards (80 yard carry plus 120 yards to the green).  As we've established, we're talking about two different versions of the Chasm Hole.

Letter - 4th Hole - The "Long Hole" - 480 yards -  - Ten yards in front of the tee is a large and “hairy” hedge, then comes a skittle ground and then a corner of a cultivated field, which is out of bounds, so a topped or foozled ball entails the loss of stroke and distance.  But 60 yards clears all these impediments, and after the teed shot there are no formidable hazards to be encountered, only a disused road with a small ditch on each side, which runs parallel with the line to the hole for some distance.
Map - 4th Hole - Octroi - 450 yards
This one is a bit confusing.  The hole on the Map runs to the left towards the Grouse Moor.  But from the description of the 5th Hole in the Letter, it would seem that the 4th would have run towards the area of the course containing the Punch Bowl (as marked on the Map), or to the right.  The "cultivated field" discussed in the letter could be the same area described in the write up of the 2nd hole.

Letter - 5th Hole - The "Punch-bowl Hole" - 400 yards - Any drive over 120 yards will clear a bank and narrow land, which crosses the line to the hole; a good brassy shot will then bring you somewhere near the Punchbowl, a deep circular pit, with nearly perpendicular sides and about thirty yards in diameter.  This hazard is in the direct line to the hole, and some 300 yards from the tee, and 80 yards in front of the hole.  
Map - 10th Hole - The Punch Bowl - 270 yards
With the changes in yardage, it appears that this hole was either realigned, with a new green, or was drastically shortened.

Letter - 6th Hole - "Shand's" - 320 yards - A fair drive of 160 yards brings you to the edge of “Shand’s Ravine,” ... a cleek or brassy shot will take you over, but the lies are not bad if you get in, and a short approach shot will lay you on the green.
Map - 16th Hole - Shand's Ravine - 324 yards
Appears to be the same hole with no real changes.  The description in the letter closely matches what we see on the Map.

Letter - 7th Hole - The "Hole Across" - 115 yards
This hole does not appear on the map, and may have been consumed into the Ladies Course.

Letter - 8th Hole - The "Dell Hole" - 160 yards - This hole is also a short one, being about 160 yards, ... and in front of the hole is a deepish dell about forty yards across, but which is easy to play out of if you drop in, as many do.
Map - 17th Hole - The Dell - 176 yards
Like "Shand's" the Dell appears to have survived the initial changes in much the same form.

Letter 9th Hole - The "Home Hole" - 360 yards - This wants an accurately directed teed shot, as there is the Punchbowl on the right, and the Dell on the left, both about 130 yards from the tee; but having avoided these hazards, you have good lying ground for 200 yards, then a narrow lane, with deep banks to cross, and 80 yards to the hole.

I'd surmise that the routing of the original course was as follows:

1st Hole - Probably played along the same corridor as the 1st on the map.
2nd Hole - Probably played along the same corridor as the 2nd on the map.
3rd Hole - Along the cliff edge near the location of the 2nd green on the map.
4th Hole - From somewhere close to where we believe the 3rd green lay (near the X on the map) to a location near where the 5th tee would have been.
5th Hole - Played over the Punch Bowl, suggesting it ran on a similar line to the 10th hole on the map but longer.
6th Hole - The same as 16 on the map.
7th Hole - A short hole of 115 yards that played from near the 16th green to close to the 17th tee on the map.
8th Hole - The same as 17 on the map
9th Hole - Close to the same as 18 on the map, playing between the Punchbowl on the right and the Dell on the left.

Here's the map with the original 9 hole routing marked, with one possible solution for how 4 and 5 worked (each marked in orange).  For the perfectionists in the group, this is only meant to be a rough attempt at identifying the routing.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps017af4a7.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps017af4a7.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 19, 2013, 02:18:52 PM
There is at least one iteration of the course between the original 9 hole layout and what is depicted in the map.  This would be the 18 hole course that had 4 holes playing over the Grouse Moor, and no holes in the Chambre D'Amour.  The earliest description of I can find is from 1893, coinciding with what others have posted regarding the expansion to 18 holes around that date.  Some version of this layout would have existed until around 1897, when we have our first description of holes being created down in the Chambre.

Unfortunately, no map of this layout exists.  We do, however, have some contemporaneous descriptions of the holes in the Moor:

April 1, 1893 – The Saturday Review of Politics, Literature, Science and Art – article entitled “Continental Golf”

http://books.google.com/books?id=O4w_AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA344&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KvexUpveNKWIyAGnrYGIAw&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

“[After discussing the Chasm Hole] The next two holes are short but abounding in difficulty; then at the sixth, the Pau golfer stands aghast.  "This!" he says; "what is this?  Is it a grouse-moor or deer-forest?"...He often says words to this effect, but more so, during the next three holes...but after the ninth hole the grouse-moor is left behind."

Oct. 1894 – Blackwoods magazine – Horace Hutchinson
http://books.google.com/books?id=Y_kKxB7PPDkC&pg=PA557&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KvexUpveNKWIyAGnrYGIAw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

"The new nine are still a little "in the rough."  These are the holes of which the Pau golfer asked aghast, "What! d'you call this a golf links?  I call it a grouse-moor!"

This routing probably looked something like this:

1, 2 and 3 - Close to the same as noted on the map.

4 and 5 - Short holes playing from near the 3rd green towards the Grouse Moor.

6, 7, 8 and 9 - Playing over the Grouse Moor.

10, 11 and 12 - Holes playing away from the Grouse Moor back towards the more northwestern part of the property, perhaps using the same corridors as 6, 7 and 8 on the map.

13 and 14 - Perhaps the old 5th hole from the 9 hole course was divided into two holes.  The new 14th hole now plays out towards the tops of the cliffs above the Chambre, coinciding nicely with this 1897 excerpt posted by Brian earlier in the thread:

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/Biarritzchasmholedescriptionfrom1897.jpg~original)

15, 16, 17 and 18 - the same holes as 16, 17 and 18 on the map, only with the par 3 still in existence between the old 17 and 18.

Again, just a rough sketch:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119181_zpsfca31a70.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119181_zpsfca31a70.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 19, 2013, 02:48:42 PM

1903 – Pearson’s Magazine – Bunkers I Have Visited – Horace Hutchinson

http://books.google.com/books?id=PbERAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KwKyUpatL-mQyAGblYDgCQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false

"The most magnificent and terrifying thing in the nature of a water hazard that ever has come within the experience of the present scribbler undoubtedly is the “Chasm,” as it used to be called, at Biarritz.  By bad luck and owing to the encroachments of the French equivalent for the jerry builder, we have to write of this place in the past tense.  It still exists, but for the golfer it is no longer.  There are houses both on the side on which he used to tee, and again on the side on which he used to putt.  But still the Bay of Biscay comes thundering in up the chasm, and the golfer of to-day can look and wonder at the fearful terrors that awaited those of former times who had any habit of topping off the tee.

The length of carry from one side to the other of the chasm was quite inconsiderable – a half-iron shot or so would have compassed it – but there was a hideous moral effect and terror in the Atlantic tumbling and rumbling at the foot of the high precipitous cliffs.  You cannot measure these effect by material feet and yards.  They take a more subtle gauge.  



Sven,

Does this indicate that the second iteration of the chasm hole (as per your previous posts and Bryan's google earth illustration earlier) was also no longer in existence by 1903? It states that both the former tee site (i.e. new green site) and former green site had succumbed to housing... It certainly suggests it anyway....

Either way, the chasm is definitely not CBM's inspiration... It is the development of those facts that hold most interest to this thread...

Thanks,
Ally

Ally:

Wanted to wait to respond to this until after I'd laid out the 9 hole and original 18 hole course maps.  

I'd agree that the article suggests that neither iteration was around in 1903.  Here's some additional source information that perhaps changes suggestion into confirmation:

Country Life, March 15, 1902

http://books.google.com/books?id=cEQxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA350&dq=biarritz+grouse+moor&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xzyzUtW4CeGIygHz04GoCg&ved=0CGAQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20grouse%20moor&f=false

[Note:  There were a few words that were hard to make out in the text, so I apologize if anything is off.]

"Even in France the building fiend seems specially attracted by golf links.  The golf course of Biarritz has been a good deal changed owing to his encroachments, from its condition of two year ago] when the scribbler last saw it.  The chasm has gone altogether - even that modified form of chasm that replaced the more tremendous one of the original course - and gone, too, greatly to the satisfaction of the habitual "grouser," is one of those "grouse-moor" holes (and the "grousiest" of them).  By compensation, instead of the old three holes on the lower ground below the cliff, called with a savage irony the chambre d'amour, there are now five holes in that lower region."

The article goes on to describe other changes to the course:

"On the whole, the green is not less good than it used to be, and in some ways is better, but some notable bits of [injustice] have been removed.  The long shot carries over, not into the punch-bowl, for example, and Mr. Macfie(sp?)'s advide has been followed and a strip of the bunker guarding the sixteenth hole has been turfed up so that a player who has driven as straight as Mr. Macfie(sp.) can, runs up it."
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 19, 2013, 03:37:47 PM
The next step in the evolution takes us to the layout in the routing map.  

Here's what happened (there may have been interim steps, but this is the best I can surmise from what we know):

- Holes 4 - 9 are condensed into a two hole stretch playing into and out of the Grouse Moor.
- Five holes are added into the Chambre.
- The short par 3 "Hole Across" is removed, meaning play flows directly from "Shand's" to the "Dell Hole."

And here's where things get tricky.  We have various reports of changes made to the holes in the Chambre.  it is these changes that created much of the confusion early in the thread with respect to photo identification. Without an accurate date for a photo it is very difficult to determine what version of the layout you should be using to identify the photo.  By all accounts, even if certain holes were not changed, their hole number may have.  This further complicates matters where photos have an identifying hole number.  Is it 12 on the old routing map, or is it 12 as the course was configured at a later date?

The best we can do is to try to identify the various routings, and then see what makes sense from there.  

There are two later routing maps that I've seen, one David identified earlier in this discussion as being from around 1931 and another attributed in another thread to Harry Colt's work in the 1920's (Note: The expansion of the course below the clubhouse in the Colt map suggests to me that this map is from after the 1931 layout, so I question the veracity of its attribution to Colt, but perhaps the plan just shows suggestions that were never implemented.):

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-1931.jpg)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Colt_Plan_zpsb8716b1c.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Colt_Plan_zpsb8716b1c.jpg.html)

On both of these routings, the holes in the Chambre D'Amour appear to be relatively in the same positions.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 19, 2013, 11:13:31 PM
Bryan & David,

I've tried to put together a series of photos that would demonstrate my thoughts on the cliff hole.

Looking at the first one, I think we'd all agree that it would be impossible for anyone to play from the lower area of the beach, back up to the top of the bluff.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-11th-green-12th-tee.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-Chambre-House.jpg)

However, the cliff hole might have been to a plateau, cut into the cliff.
In the photo below, despite the shot being played from what appears like heavy rough, versus a tee, we can see the golfer aiming at what appears to be a plateaued green supported by a wall fronting the green and protected by a wall to the rear of the green.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/_Biarritz-Cliff.jpg)

In the photo below, I believe that the green the golfer was aiming at is in the lower right corner.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-tee-into-Chambre.jpg)


In addition, on the photo below,
(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)

taken from astride the tee on the cliff hole, based upon Bryan's aerial, I don't see those sheer cliffs being located on a continuation of Bryan's sight line in the aerial.  In addition, the elevation change in the aerial doesn't seem to match up with the photo above.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/cf1ee9e3-6e23-44ad-b0f4-a5e7086b5557.jpg~original)

So, while I think Bryan, David and others have done some wonderful research and located some great photos, they don't seem to match up in terms of the location, configuration and description of the play of the hole.

One of the reasons I requested the compass points on the aerials was to try to line up the topography on the Google Aerial with the compass point on the schematic, as shown below.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps01911918.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps01911918.jpg.html)

I think it's possible that Bryan aligned the hole a little too much to the East

What's also troubling about the hole is trying to match HH's description of play on the hole.

The photos, old and current, seem to be in conflict with the description of how the hole plays, hence, you have to wonder if HH didn't just repeat someone else's description, without ever having watched himself.

The schematic doesn't seem to scale in that # 14 is deemed 80 yards and # 12 at 300 yards.

Lastly, I think that some, if not many are looking for a "Biarritz" green in the old photos of # 12.

Yet, we know that CBM didn't just reference a green, but, the area leading up to and flanking the green.
Hence, you wouldn't find a Biarritz green in any of those photos, but rather, probably a diluted version, without the severe features.

That's all for now.



Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 19, 2013, 11:41:02 PM
Pat:

Part of the problem in all of this analysis is that there were two versions of the cliff hole.

The first version is pictured below.  It is the 14th hole on the map of the course that you included in your post.  I've highlighted the rough areas of the tee and the green with a rectangle and an oval.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zpse4383cf1.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zpse4383cf1.jpg.html)

The holes in the Chambre were altered some time later, as seen in this map (I've highlighted the old location of the Cliff Hole on this map with the same rectangle and oval).  My guess for when this occurred is some time between 1899 and 1904, using the timeline for the number of holes in the Chambre provided by David earlier in the thread:

- December 8, 1899. Golf Illustrated. The 11th plays down the cliff, the 14th is the Cliff hole up.   Four holes.
- November 4, 1904. Golf Illustrated ("Piscator.") The 9th hole played down into the Chambre d'Amour (335 yds to a green near the Sea.) The 14th ("Cliff" hole) was an iron shot up the cliff.   Six holes.

The new version is hole #7 on the map.  At some point, the hole marked as #6 on the map was added, bringing the golfer back towards the location of the new Cliff Hole.  If you take a look at the layout of the roads as marked on each of the maps, the change in location becomes evident.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Colt_Plan_zpsb8716b1chambre_zps19ec4827.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Colt_Plan_zpsb8716b1chambre_zps19ec4827.jpg.html)

I think part of the problem with the analysis of the photos is that we are not identifying which version of the hole appears in each photo, leading to a bit of confusion.

I'll copy over your photos in my next post with an explanation of what I think each one depicts.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 19, 2013, 11:51:57 PM
Sven,

I think the other problem we have is determining if the "as built" matched the schematic.

What might also help would be if you could overlay the current topo map of the area, depicting the elevations.

I tried to capture a topo of Biarritz, France, but, couldn't post it.

Thanks
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 20, 2013, 12:12:31 AM
I've annotated the map of the Chambre with marks for where I think each picture was taken, with a line showing the direction the camera was pointed.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Colt_Plan_zpsb8716b1chambre_zps02c112c7.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Colt_Plan_zpsb8716b1chambre_zps02c112c7.jpg.html)

First Photo (marked in Orange) - I believe this is a shot from the tee of the hole entering the chambre almost straight down the line of play.  The green is located by the dark wall in the background, which is evident in other photos posted in this thread.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-11th-green-12th-tee.jpg)

Second Photo (marked in Blue) - This photo is taken from a location near where the original Cliff Hole was located, capturing most of the Chambre D'Amour.  It is perhaps the best view we have of the hole that played along the beach to the south of the bath house, which many surmise is the 12th hole CBM was discussing.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-Chambre-House.jpg)

Third photo (marked in Pink) - This is a photo to the new version of the Cliff Hole.  The retention wall is the giveaway, as seen in the photo below.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/_Biarritz-Cliff.jpg)

Fourth photo (marked in Black) - This is a view across the tee box for the hole entering the Chambre, with the new version of the Cliff Hole sitting on the left hand side of the photo.  Note the same retention wall we saw in the last photo.  Also note the steps leading off the tee box showing and the two golfers on the right who are looking down the line of play for that hole.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-tee-into-Chambre.jpg)

Fifth photo (marked in Grey) - This is a photo of the old version of the Cliff Hole.  The view is from the left of the tee box, closer to the beach and probably along the path that golfers would have taken from the preceding tee to reach the tee box.  

(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 20, 2013, 12:21:31 AM
Pat:

Two things:

1.  I'm fairly convinced the schematics are good enough for our purposes.  But if you want to email me any topo images you have, I can get them posted.

2.  You stated:  

"Lastly, I think that some, if not many are looking for a "Biarritz" green in the old photos of # 12.

Yet, we know that CBM didn't just reference a green, but, the area leading up to and flanking the green.
Hence, you wouldn't find a Biarritz green in any of those photos, but rather, probably a diluted version, without the severe features."


I would agree that anyone looking for a Biarritz green in any of these photos is going to end up sorely disappointed.  What we should be looking for is the hogsback feature lying well short of the green as described in the following (which I've copied now twice from David's post earlier in the thread):

CBM and Whigham visited Biarritz (with Arnaud Massy) in early 1906 on their tour of great courses in preparation for the creation of NGLA, and CBM  mentioned what became known as his Biarritz concept shortly thereafter in a letter printed in a June 20, 1906 NY Sun article about his recent trip abroad:

"The best holes have not been found on the five British championship links alone.  . . . The idea for one hole comes from Biarritz.  The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated into my selection."  

CBM expanded on the description later that year in his article on ideal holes in Outing Magazine where he provided a sample listing of 18 holes:

"15. 210 yards. Suggested by 12th Biarritz making sharp hog back in the middle of the course.  Stopping thirty yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of the plateau green."

H.J. Whigham repeated this early understanding in 1913 when describing  the inspiration for Piping Rock's Biarritz:  

"There is a Biarritz hole of about 220 yards which is new to this country and is one of the best one-shot holes in existence. There is a hog's back extending to within thirty yards of the green and a dip between the hog's back and the green."

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 20, 2013, 04:20:31 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-Hole-in-Chambre-2.jpg)

Sven - just one note of interest.

The above photo posted by David indicates a hole that does not fit on any of the three routing configurations we have seen in the chambre d'amour. I think Alfonso had called this the 12th hole somewhere previously and it is either this hole or the previously identified 12th hole that I think are most likely inspirations for CBM because they both have their green sites positioned close / just after small hogs back dune ridges.

Ally
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 20, 2013, 11:31:09 AM
Ally -

That is the one photo that I do not have an answer for right now (ironic as it seems that this photo answered questions for others earlier in this thread).  I can place where the hole is located, essentially facing towards the location of the old version of the Cliff Hole.  The features on the cliff wall on the right side of the photo match other photos and even current Google Earth images.

One possibility is that at some point the hole that played from next to the bath house to the North was aligned more inland.  

This is also purely a guess, but I'm thinking that at some point the holes in the Chambre may have been configured like this (I'm using the c. 1904 hole numbers):

Hole 9 - Played down into the Chambre
Hole 10 - Played along the beach back towards the bath house
Hole 11 - Played from near the bath house further north
Hole 12 - Played back towards land just inland of the 10th green
Hole 13 - The hole pictured in that photo, which played back towards the tee location for the old version of the Cliff Hole
Hole 14 - The Old Version of the Cliff Hole

This would have been an interim routing prior to the addition of the new version of the Cliff Hole, which would have played up the hill to the right of this photo.

As we've seen in other photos, I don't think the number "8" on the photo has anything to do with the numbering of the hole depicted.

Two quick notes:

1. If you have the capability on your computer, right click on that photo and choose the "Search Google for this image" option.  The two sites that pop up have some interesting photos of the Chambre.  Here is one of them that I haven't seen before:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6525307_051010e99b_l_zpsc0211542.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6525307_051010e99b_l_zpsc0211542.jpg.html)

2.  In Google Earth or Maps, you can locate the switchback road that descends into the Chambre called the "Promenade des Sources."  In Street View, the land just outside the big curve back to the south on the road matches up perfectly with the photos of the New Version of the Cliff Hole, including the stone wall depicted behind the green, with the matching rock outcropping just to its right.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 20, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
Three more photos:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6706546_68e5d156d8_l_zpsdff6709a.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6706546_68e5d156d8_l_zpsdff6709a.jpeg.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6706556_f3c8e450e3_l_zps07d5bbbc.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6706556_f3c8e450e3_l_zps07d5bbbc.jpeg.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps223c3dee.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps223c3dee.jpeg.html)

This last photo is the most interesting.  It depicts what I believe are the two most probable locations for CBM's mythical 12th hole.  
I've marked below the greens (ovals), lines of play and possible location of the hogsback for each hole (triangles).  The hole marked in green would have been the 12th under a configuration where the entrance to the Chambre was the 11th hole.  The hole in blue would be the 12th if the entrance was the 9th hole.

Thoughts?

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/CBMHogback_zps2be3884f.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/CBMHogback_zps2be3884f.jpeg.html)

Also note that the hole in the photo Ally posted can be made out on the right side of this picture, running away from our viewpoint.  Based on the presence of that hole and the hole marked in blue I'm leaning towards it having been a connector to the old version of the Cliff Hole.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 20, 2013, 12:08:34 PM
One more version of that last photo, this time in a bigger format to hopefully highlight some of the features:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps223c3dee.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps223c3dee.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 20, 2013, 03:44:35 PM
I wanted to revisit some of the other photos posted in the various related threads from the past couple of years.

This shot was identified as possibly being the 11th hole.  In reality, it is a shot of the green of the new version of the Cliff Hole, with the spectators standing on the switchback road descending into the Chambre.  The tee for the 11th hole (using this designation for the hole that first plays down into the Chambre) would be on slightly higher ground off to the right side in the background of the photo or just out of the frame.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/CliffHoleGreen2_zps5647feb4.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/CliffHoleGreen2_zps5647feb4.jpg.html)

This photo has been interpreted a number of different ways.  I'm fairly convinced its a shot from the fairway of the 11th hole back up to the tee, basically showing a reverse of the entrance to the Chambre.  The new version of the Cliff Hole is visible on the left of the photo, with the fronting and backing stone walls visible on each side of the plateau green.  The 11th fairway sat in the space in the loop of the road (or path) which ran down into the Chambre.  The abrupt line running across the photo is the edge of the cliffside portion of the road, the surface of which we cannot see because of the angle of the photo.  

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz11backtotee_zpsf677e78e.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz11backtotee_zpsf677e78e.jpg.html)

A view of the 11th green, showing the wall surrounding the green visible in one of the photos Pat posted earlier in the thread.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz111_zps5c3b003a.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz111_zps5c3b003a.jpg.html)

Another view of the 11th green.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzGolfGreen11th_zpsf73b1a87.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzGolfGreen11th_zpsf73b1a87.jpg.html)

Finally, the much discussed photo of the Cliff Hole.  Numbering issues aside, the topography of the cliff in this photo is a match for the location of the old version of the Cliff Hole, and you can even make out the same marks on the rock face in some of the modern photos posted by Brian.  I'd suggest those that doubt this take a moment to try to find a street view of this location on Google Earth or Maps.  My best guess for the discrepancy in the numbering is that the photo was taken at a time when the configuration of the course was somewhere in between the late 1890's routing map and the addition of the new version of the Cliff Hole (perhaps around 1908 when the 8th hole played into the Chambre and the 13th played out of it).  The presence of the same number "14" on one of the photos above makes me think it may have been some kind of code or number in a series of images, and had nothing to do with the number of the golf hole.  And I do believe that the yardage on the box matches up with the 80 yards cited for the old version of the Cliff Hole.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz_14_zps125c24f9.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz_14_zps125c24f9.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 21, 2013, 02:08:31 PM
Thanks for posting the additional photos, Sven.  I hadn't seen them.  

On the plus side, the photos give a better look at some of the rolls or hogback features that might have been the site of the hole mentioned by CBM.   On the minus side I still don't know where they hole was located, except that it seems very likely that it was 1) In the Chambre, and 2) utilizing one of the hogback features visible in the various pics.  

Some of the photos show a house at the far east end of the Chambre.  I don't know how accurate it is, but one website says the house was built around 1919, and was moved at some later date.   One of the photos with the house is interesting because it also shows an elevated tee between the green and the house.  This would seem to date the photo to the early 1920's- before the second Cliff type hole was built over by the road down.   (That is assuming that this tee is the Cliff hole tee.)

In short, I don't know that we can accurately locate the "No. 12" hole in question.  We might get some idea of where it could be though by counting backwards from the Cliff hole which (according to GI) was No. 14 in 1906 (when CBM visited.)   If the Cliff was No. 14 then the 13th green must have been near the tee for the Cliff, and the green for No. 12 must be near the tee for No. 13.   Obvious I guess, but figuring out the actual routing at this time was not so obvious.  

I don't have time to try and figure out what the routing could have been right now but will try to come up with something in the next day or two.  Sven, have you come up with notion of what the routing may have been in 1906?
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 21, 2013, 02:35:28 PM
David & Sven,

I think part of our difficulty is that some are equating the "hogback" with the prominent feature found on CBM's/SR's/CB/s Biarritzes.

Ergo, they're looking for that feature in the photos.

CBM exagerated that feature to form the basis for his Biarritz, but, in the form he first discovered it, it was much more subtle, hence, you won't see what we would expect today.

What ever it was that he saw, it inspired him to create HIS Biarritz, a hole with very pronounced, if not exagerated features.

He also applied and basically confined his concept to par 3's, not par 4's or par 5's.

When you look at the site of some of his Biarritzes, they're compelling.

I believe that CBM/SR elicited the concept of the Biarritz from the 12th hole, and then, on specific sites, made the quantum leap of introducing the Biarritz on dramatic landforms, reminiscent of the "chasm" hole.

When you look at Yale, Fishers Island and to a lesser degree Piping Rock and even at The Creek, the combination of the 12th hole and "chasm" hole at Biarritz seem to clearly be the foundation of his "Biarritz"
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 21, 2013, 02:49:58 PM
Patrick,  Looking at those great ridges running across the Chambre, I don't know whether CBM exaggerated the hogback feature later or de-emphasized it.  Either way, I think part of the problem in finding the hole is CBM was taking an idea or an inspiration, not the actual golf hole.  He himself said that the actual hole was not a very good hole.  He may have looked at the 12th on that old map and said, "this hole doesnt work, but this would be great if the hogback was more in line with the green so that the golfer would have to hit a straight shot in or risk being deflected, etc.   So we may be looking for something that didn't even quite exist except in CBM's mind.  

Bryan has made that point repeatedly in reference to the Leven hole, but I think it is worth repeating.  CBM wasn't dealing in copies or rote imitation, he was dealing in ideas and core concepts.  Our inability to find the model hole at Biarritz may be because the "model" was more in CBM's mind than on the ground anywhere at Biarritz.
____________________________

As for the Chasm, I still have my doubts that the Chasm at Biarritz played any role in shaping his later holes.  As has been covered extensively, the real Chasm didn't even exist in 1906 when he saw the hole, and the shorter less compelling version probably didn't exist either (or if it did it was in a very watered down form.)    And there is no evidence he had seen the hole when it did exist in the 1890's. That said there were lots of holes playing over chasms and or quarries or pits or ponds or rivers, etc. that CBM may have seen and he may have liked the idea for the Biarritz.

But most likely, the connection between the Chasm at Biarritz and the CBM "Biarritz" concept hole is just plain erroneous.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 21, 2013, 02:53:00 PM
David:

The first version of the routing is easy, as it is marked on the early routing map.  I've annotated that map to emphasize the layout:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zpse2f98cbf.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zpse2f98cbf.jpg.html)

And here's how that routing looks overlaid on a photo of the Chambre D'AMour:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps0413c6cb.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps0413c6cb.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 21, 2013, 03:11:43 PM
However, I don't believe that what I depicted in the last post is the routing that CBM saw.  As you noted, in 1904 the Chambre had this configuration:

- November 4, 1904. Golf Illustrated ("Piscator.") The 9th hole played down into the Chambre d'Amour (335 yds to a green near the Sea.) The 14th ("Cliff" hole) was an iron shot up the cliff.   Six holes.

Using the same map and the same photo, this is my best guess at how those 6 holes played.  What was the 11th is now the 9th, with two holes added between what was 13 and the Cliff Hole.  

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps7ebc880d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps7ebc880d.jpg.html)

On the photo I've marked the area of interest for this discussion, as I believe this was the 12th hole when CBM saw the course (dating this photo is tough, but I think we can agree that it was before the house was built in 1919 at the top left of the photo).

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps785bbba5.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps785bbba5.jpeg.html)

A close up of the area of interest.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l1_zps70a2990e.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l1_zps70a2990e.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 21, 2013, 03:48:42 PM
A quick tangent.

Here's a current image of the location of the Cliff Hole (new version):

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/NewCliffHole_zpsc52877bc.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/NewCliffHole_zpsc52877bc.png.html)

Here are old photos of that hole for comparison:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/CliffHoleGreen2_zps5647feb4.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/CliffHoleGreen2_zps5647feb4.jpg.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/_Biarritz-Cliff_zps930f2773.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/_Biarritz-Cliff_zps930f2773.jpg.html)

And another with the green on the left side of the photo.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz-tee-into-Chambre_zps8f64fb10.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz-tee-into-Chambre_zps8f64fb10.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 21, 2013, 04:06:56 PM
David,

I would disagree for the following reason.

If I took you to Pine Valley and the 5th hole no longer existed due to rerouting and redesign, you would no doubt want to visit the abandoned hole and I'd be anxious to show it to you.

With CBM's enthusiasm and thirst for knowledge, I can't imagine him visiting Biarritz and not visiting the abandoned holes.

And, I still believe that Colt's design of # 5 at Pine Valley was inspired, if not directly copied from the "chasm" hole at Biarritz
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 21, 2013, 05:02:05 PM
Pat:

Then why did CBM specifically reference a hole by number (the 12th) when describing the influences for the Biarritz template, including a description of the landforms in front of its green?  Does that not suggest he was referencing a hole that existed and more importantly was part of the course when he visited?

At all times from the first use of the Chambre up until well after CBM's visit, the 12th hole was located down below the cliffs.  The Chasm Hole was never the 12th hole of the course.

Colt and Pine Valley is another story, and I'd like to have more information on when he visited Biarritz and what he saw before commenting on your speculation on that matter.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Alex Miller on December 21, 2013, 05:12:58 PM
Pat:

Then why did CBM specifically reference a hole by number (the 12th) when describing the influences for the Biarritz template, including a description of the landforms in front of its green?  Does that not suggest he was referencing a hole that existed and more importantly was part of the course when he visited?

At all times from the first use of the Chambre up until well after CBM's visit, the 12th hole was located down below the cliffs.  The Chasm Hole was never the 12th hole of the course.

Colt and Pine Valley is another story, and I'd like to have more information on when he visited Biarritz and what he saw before commenting on your speculation on that matter.

Sven

Forgive my intrusion into a very fine thread!

Given the ambiguity of hole #'s, I have to share a thought I had when looking at this photo:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps785bbba5.jpeg)

The dune formations in the chamber seem to be oriented parallel to the coast. As we all know, the depression in the hole we currently know as a Biarritz is oriented perpendicular to the line of play. In looking at this photo, the 11th, which plays toward the coast, would appear to have the best opportunity to have green contours that resemble the CBM "Biarritz" due to the direction of play. Is it possible that this is a hole we should look at more closely? There would appear to be some sort of a hogsback formation short of the green there as well.

Kudos on the fantastic discussion Sven, Patrick, Bryan, David, and others!
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 21, 2013, 05:18:24 PM
Pat:

Then why did CBM specifically reference a hole by number (the 12th) when describing the influences for the Biarritz template, including a description of the landforms in front of its green?  

Sven,

You're not reading my replies and you're not reading them in conjunction with what CBM wrote.

Does that not suggest he was referencing a hole that existed and more importantly was part of the course when he visited?

Reread my replies

At all times from the first use of the Chambre up until well after CBM's visit, the 12th hole was located down below the cliffs. 

We know that

The Chasm Hole was never the 12th hole of the course.

We know that, and, I never said it was.

Colt and Pine Valley is another story, and I'd like to have more information on when he visited Biarritz and what he saw before commenting on your speculation on that matter.


Unfortunately, I don't think that a diary/log exists for Colt, like the one available to MacKenzie.

If he visted Biarritz, he would see everything at Biarritz, unless you think that certain areas were "off limits"
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 21, 2013, 05:34:10 PM
Sven,

I was thinking something similar to your second diagram, although I may have a few reservations  about that setup for 1906.   I'll have to wait and get into them later as I don't have time to go back and dig into photos right now.
___________________________________________________________

Patrick,  

CBM may have looked at the old hole location, although it sounds like the best place to see it may have been from the "chambres" of the maisons reportedly built on the locations of the tee side and green side.   He doesn't seem to have said anything about the Chasm as an influence, so it is hard to support the theory.  

I just wonder if the idea of playing over a chasm or ditch or lake or whatever was unique enough to require specific inspiration. In 1906 that wasn't really a unique concept, was it?  Dunn seems to have been quite fond of such holes, as is perhaps evidenced by Ardsley discussed above.  And weren't there other holes in Great Britain (seen by CBM) which featured carries over dramatic features (the Pit at North Berwick?)
_________________________________________________

Alex,  what you are suggesting is possible, but I get the impression that in CBM's/Whigham's early version of the hole the hogback was supposed to run up the middle hole so that less than perfect balls would be deflected to one side or another. (There are descriptions saying as much.)   So a perfect ball would essentially have to be right up the middle, with a drop off on both sides.  (CBM utilized this concept on a few drives at NGLA including "Hogback" and the on the drive on the Punchbowl.)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 21, 2013, 05:42:12 PM
Pat:

My apologies, I did misread the train of comments leading up to your last post, and I think we are in agreement with respect to the central principal that CBM took away from Biarritz with respect to his Biarritz template, namely the landforms leading up to the green.  

There is credence to the idea that CBM would have wanted to see where the Chasm Hole used to play, even though it was covered by housing when he visited.  And it is possible that it did influence his designs in the future, including possibly the crossing of the lake at Yale.  However, like David, I don't think the idea rises beyond the level of speculation at this point.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 21, 2013, 05:51:38 PM
David:

I, too, have some questions, but for the most part I'm fairly convinced that if the 9th hole was the number for the hole entering the Chambre, the 12th would have been the hole I've marked as such on the 2nd version of the map and photo.  There are no other routings I can come up with leading up to the 12th hole that make sense, and no photo evidence I've seen that contradicts this theory.

Any questions I do have are related to what I've been calling the new version of the Cliff Hole, but they all affect the routing after the 12th.  

Happy to walk through any photo evidence or other theories when you have the chance.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 21, 2013, 05:53:33 PM
Sven,

I had asked Bryan to overlay this schematic over the google earth image of the 5th at PV.

He hasn't had the inclination or time to do so, so perhaps you or David have the ability to do so.

But, if I modified this schematic, just slightly, and I asked everyone what hole this was, I think the great majority would claim # 5 at Pine Valley.

The resemblance is too mirror like to be strictly coincidence.

Even if Colt never visited Biarritz, it would be hard to imagine that he didn't come into contact with photos, drawings, paintings or personal accounts of the hole.

We have Ross's travel log and MacKenzie's travel log, it would be nice to have Colt's travel log.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/BiarritzBahtosketchrevisedtoshow1897alteration.jpg~original)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 21, 2013, 06:07:30 PM
Pat:

There's another way to look at it.

Perhaps the 5th at Pine Valley (and hence Colt) influenced how George Bahto drew that image of the Chasm Hole.  

Let's stick to the photos, contemporaneous accounts and routing maps.  The rest is latter day interpretation, and most likely flawed at that.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 21, 2013, 06:50:43 PM
Sven,

Irrespective of the George's schematic's accuracy, the aerials/topos of the two sites bear a remarkable resemblance.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 21, 2013, 06:58:43 PM
Pat:

That's great, but if you don't mind can we move any Colt related commentary over to the thread you started on that subject. 

Part of the reason I got involved in this thread was to try to get it back on point.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 22, 2013, 11:58:33 AM
Here is another golf picture from 1909.  Sadly not very good quality.  The homes on the horizon, which would be near, but probably right of the Chasm hole certainly don't look jerry built as Hutchinson wrote.

(http://images-02.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/242/715/868_001.jpg?v=1)


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 22, 2013, 12:25:36 PM
Bryan:

Here's a better version of that image.  The housing does look well built.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Tee12th_zps2aa19d7c.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Tee12th_zps2aa19d7c.jpg.html)

And here's an image of the 12th green that David posted back in 2011.  He noted the photo was from 1904.  The location of the cliff line in the back ground matches up with the area that we have been identifying for the old version of the Cliff Hole.  I believe this is the hole I've noted as the 12th on the marked photo that follows.  The "area of interest" marked on that photo would be behind the golfers in David's image.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz190412th_zps1f3be1a2.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz190412th_zps1f3be1a2.jpg.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps785bbba5.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps785bbba5.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 22, 2013, 12:27:12 PM
A view from the lighthouse looking over the Chambre d'Amour.  It's date stamped 1913.  I cannot see the jerry built houses that Hutchinson referred to on the site of the chasm hole.

(http://images-01.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/241/254/948_001.jpg)


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 22, 2013, 12:40:07 PM
Bryan:

Hutchinson's statement was printed in 1903.  My guess is that some shoddily built houses were present for a short while, and then may have been torn down at a later date to make room for the larger mansions that started to show up on the cliff top.  Or perhaps the owners of those mansions decided to clear the clutter out of their back yards.

Here's another photo (undated) showing a mix of types of housing.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-Chambre-House.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 27, 2013, 11:36:40 PM
I, too, have some questions, but for the most part I'm fairly convinced that if the 9th hole was the number for the hole entering the Chambre, the 12th would have been the hole I've marked as such on the 2nd version of the map and photo.  There are no other routings I can come up with leading up to the 12th hole that make sense, and no photo evidence I've seen that contradicts this theory.

As I said, I was thinking of something similar to your scheme, but had some issues.   I don't think there is anything necessarily contradicting the theory, it is more just that we don't have enough information to adequately support it.   I am still of the opinion that about all we can say with any degree of certainty is that the CBM "No. 12" hole in question was almost definitely not the "Chasm Hole," was probably located in the bottom of the Chambre d'Amour, and that it possibly utilized one of those big rolls or hogbacks visible in the photos. 

Here are a few reasons why I am hesitant to get solidly behind this theory or any theory specifically identifying the location:

1.  The photo supposedly of the 12th green.  Looking at the background, then this photo ought to be looking from the green back toward the tee.  Yet I don't see anything resembling a tee or a hogback between the tee and green.   It could just be the angle or the poor quality, but I am not so sure that this photo supports the theory, except that it is reasonable that the green location could be about correct but it is really difficult to tell. Also, even if the location is correct it could be playing from the opposite direction.    (When I first saw this photo my assumption was it was taken from the front of the green, which would be a more conventional way to photograph a green.)

2.  I don't have a good sense of the dates of the various photos showing various man made features (greens and tees) or that the features were in existence at the time CBM was there.    There were so many changes down there that I am not sure it is reasonable to assume that a feature we see in any of the photos was actually there in 1906.   And there are features (greens and tees) in the photos on which you are relying that are not taken into account in the theory.   For examples, in a few of the photos a green (or something) is visible across the road from where you have the 12th tee, and the location where you have the 12th tee was a green as well.  And then there is the tee on the other side of the green where you have the 12th tee, and I think may have been the cliff hole tee.  And some feature right in front of the house.   Even the photo of the ladies teeing off (where they are dressed formally) shows part of a manmade bunker to there left of the teebox, suggesting another hole that we haven't really identified.  In short, there seems to have been quite a lot going on in terms of different routings, and I wonder if we aren't picking and choosing a bit too much.

3.  I've provided some descriptions for Golf Illustrated (which I will try to provide in full) but honestly I don't have a strong sense of confidence in any of the course descriptions from about 1895 to about 1908.    The reason is I think about every description was written by Hutchinson, yet while Hutchinson was there in the winter of 1893-1894, he was apparently not there again until either 1908 or 1909 (I don't remember which one offhand.)  And this alone makes me somewhat wary of relying on his descriptions of specific hole numbers.    At some point around 1908 or 1909 the descriptions change from No. 9 playing down into the Chambre to No. 8 playing down into the Chambre, and I don't know if this was an actual change or whether the numbers were wrong on the previous descriptions.  A shift in one hole makes a big difference when it comes to placing the No. 12 hole.

It'd be nice if we could narrow down the location of the Cliff tee, but I am not sure we can.  In at least one of the photos it looks like they might be playing over a road, which would suggest the tee was over by what you have as the 11th green, but I cannot be certain.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 27, 2013, 11:46:15 PM
Rough Copies of Golf Illustrated pages from 1904, 1906, 1908, and 1909.  These I copied off the internet some time ago, and was hoping to get to a LA84 library to get better copies, but don't know when I will get around to it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/BiarritzGI19041.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/BiarritzGI19042.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/BiarritzGI1906.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/BiarritzGI19081.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/BiarritzGI19082.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/BiarritzGI1909.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on December 28, 2013, 06:14:07 AM
Still enjoying this thread!  How sweet to see what benefits collaboration and people prepared to admit that it is not always clear what happened can bring.


A word on the architects.

Willie Dunn Jrn  was at Westward Ho in 1886 then according ot Cornish and Whitten laid out Chingford, London borders with Essex(1888) before heading to Biarritz.  I understand he was the offical Greenkeepr/Professional.   He  left to go to Shinnecock circa 1895 .


 From the recent  Tantallon Club and the West Links  (North Berwick) history, in 1889 Tom Dunn was dismissed from his his job as superintendent at North Berwick as he had apparently decided to join his brother Willie(Jr) at Biarritz. 


Cornish and Whitten allocate the brothers equal credits for the Biarrittz changes.

Tom “was the most prolific course designer of his day” and they call him the first designer to work on inland courses. His work included respected courses like Broadstone and Deal (9holes 1892). They have him at Biaritz in 1888(possible as he had sorely tried the North Berwick Clubs prior to leaving but most likely incorrect) and then other English courses from 1890.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 28, 2013, 01:27:58 PM
Tony,

If I recall various readings and past threads correctly, I think that it was Tom Dunn who laid out the original 9 holes at Biarritz in 1888 or 1889, then he was joined by Willie Jr. a few years later to expand the course to 18 holes (and eventually into the Chambre.)  Here is a link providing a brief history on the various Dunns and although a few of the dates are perhaps a bit off it seems to be accurate.

http://www.northberwick.org.uk/dunn.html

Also, according to a number of various newspaper articles, Dunn arrived at Shinnecock in the spring of 1893, and reportedly lengthened the course before the 1893 season.  (The course as laid out by William Davis had originally been 9 holes, but was reportedly 12 holes beginning in the summer 1893.)  He expanded the course to 18 holes a few years later.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46842.0.html

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on December 28, 2013, 01:58:06 PM
David  the same author Douglas Seaton wrtoe the new boook published last year and the website is older.


On checking the book further, Tom had been 'superintendent' at North Berwick twice and at one point employed Willie there.  Tom mised the Spring meeting in 1889 as it was "reported he was on a sojorn to Biarritz".  He said he had been ill and extended his stay beyond the week a Doctor had advised. "The reality was that Tom Dunn had joined his brother Willie Dunn in in France where they laid out the Le Phare course".  


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 28, 2013, 02:39:39 PM
Thanks Tony.

I've read the account of Tom D missing the 1889 spring meeting, etc.  And that Tom and Willie were hired by Biarritz in the spring of 1889, but I am pretty sure there was already a course there at that time.  I guess my question is who designed the original course that opened in 1888?  I thought that it was Tom Dunn who had quickly laid out the course while on vacation, or something, and then he returned the next year and lost his job at Biarritz.  

Putting Tom there in 1888 is very sketchy, and I've never seen anything that put Willie Dunn there before 1889.  It could be that he was there, but I do recall reading one article that suggested Tom was there a year previous to Willie.   Not important, I guess.

From your quote from Mr. Seaton, it doesn't seem that Willie was necessarily there first, although I guess you could read it that way.  The way to reads to me is that Mr. Seaton is suggesting they laid out the original course together, but I am pretty sure there was already a course there in the spring of 1889.  I think I have seen results of competitions from the prior year.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 28, 2013, 05:22:44 PM
Given that the Dunns were from North Berwick which itself was christened the Biarritz of the North, remind me again - we definitely ruled out the 16th green at NB as any form of inspiration, didn't we?
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on December 28, 2013, 05:32:16 PM
Given that the Dunns were from North Berwick which itself was christened the Biarritz of the North, remind me again - we definitely ruled out the 16th green at NB as any form of inspiration, didn't we?

Ally

IN the book he states the 16th was created following  the West Links being extended in 1877, necesitating draining the area around the Marine Hotel.  "The 16th green was raised and later Tom Dunn extended the green with its unique deep swale bisecting the middle." He then says this 3 level green was used on several greens at Biarritz.  Howevr he offers no evidence to support this and I've never found a reference to the extraordinary green before the 1960's, but the Oldest members say it hasn't changed since they played there in the youth.  I hope to play a round with Mr Seaton.  Circumstantially Dunn was very busy and yet that 16th green still seems unique to me.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on December 28, 2013, 07:02:50 PM
David,

Photos of the 12th green will reveal very little.

The Biarritz "concept" did not have it's genesis in the green, but rather, the "hogback" fronting the green, in combination with the green.

CBM combined these features to form the Biarritz concept in the U.S.as evidenced at Piping Rock and other courses.

I suspect that CBM "compressed the features he found at Biarritz into one compact feature that formed the basis for ONLY his par 3 holes, so that he could dictate the angle of attack.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 28, 2013, 08:42:49 PM
Patrick,  I realize the actual green wouldn't tell us much, but if the photo is in question is from the back of the green looking back toward the tee, then we might expect to see the swale and hogback feature and maybe even the tee.  Nothing like these is visible in the photo in question, which makes me question the positioning of the hole in the latest schematic.

_____________________________________________________

There has been quite a bit of discussion over the years about when exactly the two plateau formation became the 16th green at North Berwick.  I think at some point only the first plateau was green, and some of the discussion has been about whether CBM would have seen the hole before or after the change.   I think the general consensus was that the change was in the mid 1890's but I really don't know. Tony's post suggest even earlier, but for some reason I think Rich or someone argued it wasn't changed until around 1908 or 1909, but that is off of my sometimes faulty memory.  Here is one thread discussing issue:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50245

Also, when you ask about whether the hole was an "inspiration," do you mean inspiration for CBM in America, or Dunn in North Berwick, or both?  I don't think the 16th was CBM's original inspiration for his Biarritz concept simply because he told us his inspiration was No. 12 at Biarritz.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the CBM was inspired by the 16th at North Berwick for certain of his early non-Biarritz greens. The original Biarritz concept was not a green concept, it was rather a hole concept, and the swale was originally before the green.  But CBM did built least one green with a swale running through the green on a longer hole at Sleepy Hollow.  Sleepy Hollow also had a Biarritz with a very small swale fronting the green. (The original green at Merion's second also had a swale across the middle of the green, and was compared to the similar hole at Sleepy Hollow.)   At some point the two concepts may have come together into the single concept.  

But it is impossible for me to credit CBM's inspiration to some other course (or Hole) with both he and Whigham both identify the Biarritz hole (the 12th according to CBM) as the inspirational hole.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Ally Mcintosh on December 29, 2013, 05:00:33 AM
David, I was referring more to whether 16 at NB might have been in Dunn's mind when the Biarritz hole that inspired CBM was finally designed / built
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 11:49:38 AM
David:

A couple of followup questions before I dive into a detailed response:

1.  Do we know who "Piscator" was?

2.  Which photo are you referring to when you note that it looks like the Cliff hole played over a road?

3.  What are you basing the time periods for Hutchinson's large gap between visits?

Thanks,

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 12:02:15 PM
I think it makes sense to lay out a basic history of the holes down in the Chambre D'Amour, which will also cover the Cliff Hole.

The first account I've seen is taken from the Club's website (http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Pres1897cadets.htm) which gives the article a date of 1897, but mistakenly cites Cornish & Whitten as the source (the article quotes an extract from "The Golfing Annual").  Here is the text:

""This course of eighteen holes is in the process of some alteration..."

The "alterations" mentioned in the above extract from the "Golfing Annual include, unfortunately, the loss of the "chasm," or third-hole - which is really the principal feature both of the course and of our illustrations....To make up for this slice stolen by the builder, the golfer is annexing ground below the cliff which the fourteenth hole of the old course approaches, as may be remembered by those who have golfed thereon, and found trouble in the "punch-bowl" that guards the fourteenth green.  Just across the road to Bayonne, the cliff slopes down steeply to the sea, but between its foot and the fore-shore is a stretch of golfable land, on which golf will now be played."


The article contains two photos of the Chasm hole, but no photos of the Chambre D'Amour.  No specifics are given as to any holes down in the Chambre.

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 12:40:46 PM
The next reporting of the Chambre is from a March 10, 1899 article in "Golf" (http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Pres10mars1899.html).

"There have been so many inquiries lately, both in "Golf" and other papers, about the state of the Biarritz Golf course, that perhaps a short description by one who has seen it in most of its successive phases may be of some interest.  A great feature of the old course used to be the "Chasm" hole.  That particular hole is taken away.  At one time there used to be a particular hole out to the Phare, the lighthouse.  That ground too, has been used by the builder....Ground has since been taken into play which gives an area many acres larger than the area of the course when the "Chasm" and the "Lighthouse" holes were in use....It is made up, and much more than made up by the new ground that has been taken into golfing use below the cliff....

[The article describes the first holes on the course, including the new version of the Chasm Hole.]

[Following a description of the ten hole which includes the "punch bowl feature"] And from there we come to quite new ground, to the under cliff holes.  Teeing almost on the summit of the precipitous cliff and facing the lighthouse, we drive down to where there is a narrow course of green between the cliff road and the sand.  A second, with full iron may put the ball on the green in the western angle of the great stretch of sandy stuff that the sea not so very long ago must have covered.  Back from here, eastward again, with a long drive to carry a small stream, we may come within a three-quarter iron approach of a narrow green between the sand wastes, and after that a drive may reach the next green, again a narrow one, between the sand waste and the actual shore.  Now we are back in the eastern corner of the undercliff, and if we are ever going to reach the upper air of the cliff top...we must mount the cliff.  So there is a hole within easy iron shot range on the cliff head, on a green upon a promontory, so that if your are short you come tumbling down the cliff again on this side, and if you are strong you will go over the farther cliff beyond....

The hole after the up-cliff hole is only a cleek shot to a narrowly guarded green; and then the course resumes the old tenour of its way, only that the short old sixteenth is left out."


The article includes one photo, captioned "Tee For Eleventh Hole, Down The Cliff."

Earlier in the thread I provided descriptions of the routings leading up to this point in time.  

This being the first description of the holes in the Chambre, I think it makes sense to layout the details:

10th Hole - the hole leading us to the cliff top hole, playing over the "punch-bowl"
11th Hole - the cliff top hole, playing down to a fairway next to the road and then on towards a green in the corner
12th Hole - plays back in the opposite direction
13th Hole - continues in the same general direction of the 12th to a green hard against the shore
14th Hole - the "Cliff Hole" playing to a green set on a promontory with fall-offs both front and back
15th Hole - a "cleek shot to a narrowly guarded green"

The description in this article matches the routing displayed in this map, including the numbering of the holes and the names given on the map to the 10th and the 14th (it is important to note that the numbers are marked at the tees, not the greens for each hole):

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119182_zpsedff5baf.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119182_zpsedff5baf.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 01:19:14 PM
Again in 1899, we get an article from Horace Hutchinson printed in the December 8, 1899 edition of Golf Illustrated (found here:  http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Presgi1899.htm).

The key points:

"In the last few years there has been an alteration in the disposition of the course, so that there are now three holes on that lower ground known as the chambre d'amour....The first of the illustrations shows a very well-known player on the Biarritz green [note this is not a reference to a CBM Biarritz Green, but rather to the Biarritz golf course] preparing to drive down the cliff into this lower ground of the chambre d'amour.

[This is that picture.]

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz189911th_zpsb9a08178.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz189911th_zpsb9a08178.png.html)

There is a delightful uncertainty about the spot at which a ball driven from such a height will touch the gound below that adds an element of excitement to the stroke.  Unfortunately it always seems to land not quite so far away as it had promised....

And finally, the third picture gives a view of one of the strongest of the Biarritz players watching his ball in its flight to the ground below the cliff.

[Here is that "third picture."]

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1899-2_zps77298d8d.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1899-2_zps77298d8d.png.html)

This little series of illustrations, it will be seen, gives a good idea of what the new holes at Biarritz are.  The rest of the course is much as the visitor of three years ago and previously will remember it."

While this article doesn't provide much in the way of details on the holes in the Chambre, the pictures match my understanding of the what was described in my last post as the 11th hole.  At the very least, we can date this two photos as being from 1899 or earlier.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 01:28:10 PM
Before we get to the series of articles that David marked above, there's one more piece being a 1903 article in Pearson's Magazine by Hutchinson entitled "Bunkers I Have Visited."  (http://books.google.com/books?id=PbERAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA79&dq=biarritz+golf+chasm&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KwKyUpatL-mQyAGblYDgCQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf%20chasm&f=false)

"A little further on in the present Biarritz course there is a hazard of unusual nature.  This is a cliff face opposing you, up which you have to loft the ball sixty odd feet in the air, with a full mashie shot, or something of that kind.  There are many Biarritz golfers who have played there steadily yet never have ascended that giddy height – that is, never have persuaded their golf ball to mount it – and it is certain there are many who never will.”
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 02:10:09 PM
The first of the articles posted by David above is the November 4, 1904 Golf Illustrated piece by "Piscator."

Relevant text:

"The eigth, 200 yards, all carry, has its green guarded by an enormous natural crater, called the "Punchbowl," now lined with a carpet of wild croci and other flowers.

The ninth is 333 yards.  This tee is on the top of the cliff, and the drive has to be far and straight to land in safety on the Chambre d'Amour beneath - a pulled shot is fatal against the cliff and a rocky path at its base.  The green is close to the sea.

The fourteenth is the famous "Cliff" hole (see photo), an iron or mashie shot up a cliff 80 feet high, once there the green is large and good.

The fifteenth, 186 yards, presents the most difficult tee shot on the course.  A full shot with wooden club or cleek, according to the wind, lands one on the green, which is long and narrow, but a pull takes you out of bounds and a slice goes over the cliff or into the coastguard's hut shown in the photo."


In this description, what were the 10th and 11th holes have become the 8th and 9th (the 9th being the hole playing down into the Chambre).  The Cliff Hole remains the 14th, meaning two holes were added somewhere between 9 and 14.  More on this in the next post.

Here are enlarged versions of the photos (with captions), each of which we can give a date of 1904 or earlier:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1904-1_zps5c839d4f.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1904-1_zps5c839d4f.png.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1904-2_zps1f040fa3.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1904-2_zps1f040fa3.png.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1904-3_zps6d28d0c2.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1904-3_zps6d28d0c2.png.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1904-4_zpsbb530534.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1904-4_zpsbb530534.png.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1904-5_zps91314b3e.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1904-5_zps91314b3e.png.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1904-7_zpsfa9ded48.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1904-7_zpsfa9ded48.png.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1904-6_zps613758f2.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1904-6_zps613758f2.png.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: BCrosby on December 29, 2013, 02:25:35 PM
Sven -

I don't know who used the nom de plume 'Piscator' in the Biarritz articles, but Izaac Walton named his angler 'Piscator' in his book The Compleat Angler or The Contemplative Man's Recreation. Piscator was the voice of Walton in that famous book.

Possibly Piscator was someone known to enjoy angling? Maybe Hutchinson?

Bob
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 29, 2013, 02:46:03 PM
Sven,

The photo with the possible road near the cliff hole tee is the third to last one you posted above. Either a road or a path (in those days there wasn't much difference) runs from behind the tee and off the left side of the photo.  

I don't know who Piscator ("fisherman") was.  The pen names golf magazines seem to have been very fluid.

It is just a hunch on my part but when I read these various articles about Biarritz I get the sense that many of them were written by the same pen.  A similarity of description, repeat similar references, etc.  As for the gap in Hutchinson's visits, it is again probably more of a hunch on my part related to the fact that the author of the 1908 article (who I assume is Hutchinson, but I may be mistaken) mentions he hasn't been there in 14 years.   At one point a few years ago, I went through competition listings in Golf for Biarritz trying to track Hutchinson's visits, and I think he only shows up for that first season.  I'd have to take another look at the real magazines to verify though.

I could easily be wrong about all this, though, but even if I am I still don't get a strong sense of confidence in the possible routing in the Chambre for early 1906, possibly outside of the hole down (9) and the hole out (14.)  And I don't have sense of where the tee for the Cliff was, and that seems important in determining the locations of the other four holes ( probably 10-13.)

Note that in the 1908 article, one photo calls the hole down the 8th tee but in another photo calls it the 9th (and the green is called the 9th.)  The text refers to the hole down as the 8th hole, and the Cliff hole as the 13th.  And the article says there are five holes in the chambre.   Note also that the 1909 article identifies the hole along the wall of the Chambre as the 13th tee, but the caption says it is the tee for the cliff hole.

[Thanks for linking to that french website.  I had gotten much of my information off that site a few years ago, but thought it was in NLE.]
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 03:13:48 PM
So in 1904, two years prior to the date we are working with for CBM's visit, the configuration of the holes in the Chambre D'Amour changed from how it had been reported in 1899.

What were the 10th and 11th holes had become the 8th and 9th.  This matches up with descriptions of holes being removed from the front portion of the course, specifically in the Grouse Moor (see earlier in this thread).

So what and where were the two new holes added between the entrance to the Chambre and the Cliff Hole?

I have proposed that these two holes lay on the land in the middle of the Chambre, with one hole (the new 12th) playing from near the green of the old 13th hole (now the 11th) to a green that lay just inland and across the road from the green for the old 12th hole (the new 10th).  The next hole (the new 13th) played back again towards what was described as the eastern portion of the Chambre, or to an area below the cliffs on which the green for the "Cliff Hole" was perched.

Unfortunately, we do not have a contemporaneous version of a routing map.  We do, however, have two later versions of routing maps that depict the layout of holes in the Chambre.  While these two maps are in no way definitive proof, they give us an idea of how the holes in the Chambre were arranged at a later date (at a time when the routing and numbering of the holes for the course had changed so that the holes in the Chambre were included in the front nine).

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-1931.jpg)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Colt_Plan_zpsb8716b1c.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Colt_Plan_zpsb8716b1c.jpg.html)

As I did earlier in the thread, I've marked the early version of the routing map to indicate a possible layout of the holes in 1904 (I've tried to note any doglegs in the play of the holes by angling the connecting lines between the tees and greens).  Note the location of the 12th hole on this marked map and how it matches the location of the holes marked as 5 (on the first map) and 6 (on the second) in the images above.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119182_zps491f7a17.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119182_zps491f7a17.jpg.html)

I've marked this routing on one of the 1904 images of the Chambre:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1904-1_zps7c04c6c6.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1904-1_zps7c04c6c6.png.html)



Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 03:30:40 PM
Sven,

The photo with the possible road near the cliff hole tee is the third to last one you posted above. Either a road or a path (in those days there wasn't much difference) runs from behind the tee and off the left side of the photo.  

I don't know who Piscator ("fisherman") was.  The pen names golf magazines seem to have been very fluid.

It is just a hunch on my part but when I read these various articles about Biarritz I get the sense that many of them were written by the same pen.  A similarity of description, repeat similar references, etc.  As for the gap in Hutchinson's visits, it is again probably more of a hunch on my part related to the fact that the author of the 1908 article (who I assume is Hutchinson, but I may be mistaken) mentions he hasn't been there in 14 years.   At one point a few years ago, I went through competition listings in Golf for Biarritz trying to track Hutchinson's visits, and I think he only shows up for that first season.  I'd have to take another look at the real magazines to verify though.

I could easily be wrong about all this, though, but even if I am I still don't get a strong sense of confidence in the possible routing in the Chambre for early 1906, possibly outside of the hole down (9) and the hole out (14.)  And I don't have sense of where the tee for the Cliff was, and that seems important in determining the locations of the other four holes ( probably 10-13.)

Note that in the 1908 article, one photo calls the hole down the 8th tee but in another photo calls it the 9th (and the green is called the 9th.)  The text refers to the hole down as the 8th hole, and the Cliff hole as the 13th.  And the article says there are five holes in the chambre.   Note also that the 1909 article identifies the hole along the wall of the Chambre as the 13th tee, but the caption says it is the tee for the cliff hole.

[Thanks for linking to that french website.  I had gotten much of my information off that site a few years ago, but thought it was in NLE.]

David:

My guess is the road/path is a path, the one used by golfers to exit the tee and to start their ascent up to the green of the Cliff Hole.  You can make out similar stretches of a sandy path in other photos depicting that corner of the Chambre.  (Bryan did a great job of pinning down the location and angle of this photo earlier in the thread.)

I agree with you that many of the articles have the same tone and a similar use of language, with certain phrases often being repeated.  The March 1899 article, however, seems to suggest that the author was intimately familiar with the various iterations of the course up to that date (see the underlined text).  Whether that was Hutchinson, or someone else, the suggestion is clear.

A lot of this retroactive routing recreation is an exercise in the interpretation of photos and written word, but some of it is simple common sense.  For example, if the 9th hole played towards the western corner of the Chambre, the lay of the land only allows for one escape from that area for the next hole (that being along the water back towards the bathhouse).  As with most research of this kind, I think we're sitting in that grey area between pure conjecture and absolutely definitive evidence.

I plan to address the 1908 and 1909 articles, as well as a couple other points of confusion.  Hopefully the photos will speak for themselves.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 29, 2013, 03:46:30 PM
David:

My guess is the road/path is a path, the one used by golfers to exit the tee and to start their ascent up to the green of the Cliff Hole.  You can make out similar stretches of a sandy path in other photos depicting that corner of the Chambre.  (Bryan did a great job of pinning down the location and angle of this photo earlier in the thread.)

Looks like more than just a simple walking path to me.  Look at the ground just beyond the road/path and just short of it (next to the tee) and it looks like the road/path has been cut into the side hill, with some fill just past the tee.  Wouldn't happen with a walking path, I don't think.  Plus there is a the fact that in at least one of the photos there is clearly a tee visible on the other side of the road.  

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6706556_f3c8e450e3_l_zps07d5bbbc.jpeg)

See the tee just beyond the green? To where did this tee play, if not up the cliff?

Quote
A lot of this retroactive routing recreation is an exercise in the interpretation of photos and written word, but some of it is simple common sense.  For example, if the 9th hole played towards the western corner of the Chambre, the lay of the land only allows for one escape from that area for the next hole (that being along the water back towards the bathhouse).  As with most research of this kind, I think we're sitting in that grey area between pure conjecture and absolutely definitive evidence.

I understand what you are saying but in at least one of the photos it looks like the 9th hole has been shortened so that the green is actually short of the road.  If this was the case then there is more than one way about out of the that corner.  Or even if the hole hadn't yet been shortened, there is more than one way out with a very short walk back across the road.  It seems like if we assume 9 in and 14 out then there are two basic possibilities after the 9th.  The first is to play as you've drawn with 10 and 11 along the water then 12 and 13 down and back inside of those first two.  The other possibility is basically with the  two inside holes first, with 9 down, 10 along the cliff, 11 back, then 12 and 13 along the water.  Neither of these possibilities account for many of the features visible in the various photos, so I don't have tremendous confidence in either one of them.   Yours may be the best, but I am far from completely convinced by either of them.  

Sometimes with this type of research there just isn't enough information to draw definite conclusions.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 03:56:00 PM
The group of photos in the 1904 article were reprinted in the February 1906 Golf Illustrated one pager posted by David.  There are a few key points to take away from these pictures that have not yet been addressed.

1.  The photo of the Fifteenth Hole and the "coastguard's hut" depicts golfers on the way from the tee to the green of that hole (which linked the Cliff Hole Green with the closing holes for the course).  As noted in the 1904 article, and in the caption of the 1906 article, the hut was in a position where it might be hit by a sliced tee shot.  Here is an undated shot of the hut, most likely taken after the 15th hole was taken out of play:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/742_001_zps0d006cc5.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/742_001_zps0d006cc5.jpg.html)

2.  The photo of the Ninth Green (with the lighthouse in the distance) shows the wall at the back of the green that is evident in many photos of this green.

3.  This photo of the Ninth Tee gives us another look at the land in the middle of the Chambre.  I've marked the photo to include the holes that can be identified.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1904-7_zpsff89f290.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1904-7_zpsff89f290.png.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 29, 2013, 04:02:39 PM
Tony Muldoon,

Sven's link to that french Biarritz website helped me refresh my memory why I thought Tom Dunn was responsible for the original 9 holes.

(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Creation/GolfingAnnual1888a.jpg)
(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Creation/GolfingAnnual1888b.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 04:09:32 PM
David:

The house in that photo, Villa Zipa, wasn't built until 1919 at the earliest.  I suggest we leave that photo out of any conversation regarding the layout of the course at any time prior to WWI.  I'm also not convinced that the dark area is a tee box.  If it is, its entirely possible that its line of play was back over the green in the picture, something not uncommon back then.

The location of the tee box in the 1904 photo of the Cliff Hole would be somewhere in the lower right hand corner of that photo, or perhaps off the image to the right.

Can you show me the photo showing the 9th hole green short of the road?  I've seen a few that appear that way, but my read was that they actually were showing part of the fairway for the 9th.

Also be happy to look at how your proposed alternative routing works on a map.  And I'll keep it in mind as more photos are examined.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 04:45:24 PM
The next contemporaneous account of the holes in the Chambre is the February 14, 1908 Golf Illustrated article posted by David above (also found here:  http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Pres14fevrier1908.html).  This is the article in which the author notes his last visit to Biarritz was fourteen years ago.  The byline notes "By Gari..." with the bulk of the name being cut off.  Perhaps this was Hutchinson, perhaps not.

As David noted, the article notes the hole that enters the Chambre as being the 8th, and one of the photos depicting that hole has the caption "Tee Box for the Eighth Hole Down the Cliff."  Confusing matters, there are two other photos noting the same hole with their captions stating that it is the 9th Hole.  

I think I see the issue.  The two photos with the captions of the "9th hole" are two of the same photos that appeared in the 1904 and 1906 articles, with the same captions contained therein.  Sloppy editing, as the captions should have been updated to reflect the new number of the hole, the 8th, as noted in the text of the article and in the one new photo of that hole.

As David pointed out, the article notes that the Cliff Hole was now numbered as the 13th.  This makes sense if the old 9th became the 8th.  The change suggests an elimination of one hole early on in the course, but doesn't necessarily lead us to think that the configuration of the holes in the Chambre changed leading up to the publishing of this article in 1908.

However...
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 05:28:41 PM
A year later, another Golf Illustrated article appeared on February 26, 1909, this time including several new photos of the course.  The author of the piece is not identified in the link from the club's website (http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Pres26fevrier1909.html).

The text of the article includes the following:

"Mr. A.F. Macfie (sp?), the well-known amateur, is a frequent visitor, and uses his camera on the course with as much skill as his cleek, as the illustrations on these pages show....

Two striking features of the course are the tee shot down [text cut off] to the eighth hole, and the approach up to the thirteenth; these [down] and up shots are rendered necessary by the fact that the [?] from eight to twelve are on the shore level, the others being [?] top of the cliff."


The article contains the following photos (two having captions, with the other two captions having been cutoff by the scanned page):

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1909-1_zps82cac5bc.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1909-1_zps82cac5bc.png.html)

The caption on the above photo is very confusing.  My best guess is that the intention was to show a long range shot of the Cliff Hole (the 13th), which would have been located at "the top of the cliff."  It appears that the photo also captures the hole preceding the Cliff Hole, and that is the tee on which the golfer's in the foreground are standing.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1909-2_zps1c44f277.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1909-2_zps1c44f277.png.html)

Based on the location of the lighthouse in the background and the direction the observer on the tee is looking, this appears to be a shot of the tee of the 9th hole (as numbered at this time, the hole following the hole that plays down the cliff into the Chambre).  The photo may also depict that sandy paths that David brought up with regards to the location of the tee for the Cliff Hole.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1909-3_zps5f4cff3b.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1909-3_zps5f4cff3b.png.html)

Any thoughts on this one?

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1909-4_zps7228d1b5.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1909-4_zps7228d1b5.png.html)

A shot we've seen before, that being the teeing area for the entrance into the Chambre.

One other important item to note is the reference in the article to the Hotel Regina, which was opened in 1907.  This places the date of (a) the Colt routing map above and (b) the routing map below each as post-1907, as the hotel is noted thereon.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/plan_BIARRITZ-f310a_zps598d9308.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/plan_BIARRITZ-f310a_zps598d9308.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 29, 2013, 09:55:36 PM
David:

The house in that photo, Villa Zipa, wasn't built until 1919 at the earliest.  I suggest we leave that photo out of any conversation regarding the layout of the course at any time prior to WWI.  I'm also not convinced that the dark area is a tee box.  If it is, its entirely possible that its line of play was back over the green in the picture, something not uncommon back then.

I am not sure so we should disregard this photo. If the original Cliff green still existed at this point, then finding the Cliff hole tee even in 1919 or later might be helpful in terms of figuring out the earlier routing.  And I think it is a pretty good fit for the early photos we have of the tee location, including the one with the possible road.  

And, realistically, we don't have dates for most of the postcard shots including the one where you have identified the green surface which you believe was the 12th.  If all those are good enough to use, I am not sure it makes sense to throw out this one.  At least this one appears to predate the Colt changes.

As for the theory that the  the tee played right back over the top of the previous green, I have my doubts, especially since there appears to be another green or something right on the other side of the road.  To where would this tee have played?

By the way I am not looking at the dark area but rather the white, squared off area on top of the dune.  Look at all the various walking paths from the green.  They go up to the squared off white area.  To where did this tee play if not up the cliff?

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6706556_f3c8e450e3_l_zps07d5bbbc.jpeg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 10:46:40 PM
David:

I don't see a tee where you are looking, I see an area of sand, most likely an extension of the beach.  In addition, I have not seen any other evidence, either written or in photos, that would suggest that the Cliff Hole played from a tee located on the beach side of that green.

As for using the other photo, its the best we have right now with regards to what the 12th hole might have looked like (I actually acknowledged the issue of its date back on Dec. 22nd).  It doesn't have the Villa Zipa in it, and thus predates the photo you've copied in your post.  Things get pretty interesting down in the Chambre D'Amour around WWI (including its use as an airfield), so I'm inclined to disregard photos that we know are dated after that time.

If you'll indulge the exercise a little further, perhaps we can start to connect some of the dots in the undated photos and postcards by using some of the benchmarks identified so far, and others to come.  

If it helps you understand where I'm coming from with this, just the process of going through all of the various photos and reports in some sort of organized manner, whether it be chronologically or by focusing on groups of photos of particular holes, is raising and answering questions.  I was just about to put up a post noting that the information in the 1908 and 1909 articles has me considering a second hole as a possibility for the location of our mythical 12th hole.  Let's just say the thesis is still evolving.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 29, 2013, 11:26:14 PM
While we're on the subject, here's another photo of the Villa Zipa.  I don't see any evidence of a beach side tee box in this photo (not that this one photo is conclusive on whether one ever existed).

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/998_001_zpsc57db6a5.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/998_001_zpsc57db6a5.jpg.html)

And as this as good a place as any, here are two old photos of what the land in the Chambre D'Amour looked like.  Best I can tell, both of these pictures are from before there were golf holes on this land.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/342_001_zps33eb2d17.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/342_001_zps33eb2d17.jpg.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/7267217_8b2ca9a3c4_l_zps8f7bd9ae.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/7267217_8b2ca9a3c4_l_zps8f7bd9ae.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 30, 2013, 12:22:28 AM
David:
As for using the other photo, its the best we have right now with regards to what the 12th hole might have looked like (I actually acknowledged the issue of its date back on Dec. 22nd).  It doesn't have the Villa Zipa in it, and thus predates the photo you've copied in your post.

Not necessarily.  The Villa Zipa had a fairly short lifespan down in the chambre.  It was deconstructed and moved up into the town around 1930.  So the photo could have been before 1919 or after 1930.  It is convenient to assume that the photo must have been from the time period in question, but frankly there is a lot in that photo that doesn't seem to match.  It seems there are too many golf holes, for one thing.

As for the mystery tee, it sure looks like a tee to me, especially given the paths off the green.  And while the latest photo isn't clear either way, it certainly doesn't preclude the existence of the tee in the exact same spot, near the white marker.  It is tough to say.  

The photo of the "dunes" is interesting.  I'd guess the buildings in the background are in the same location as the buildings throughout.  Those uniformed men are reclining against the side of the Cliff tee, aren't they?
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 30, 2013, 01:07:03 AM
Another undated photo:
(http://v2.adala-asso.com/uploads/photos/46.jpg)

And a real head scratcher:
(http://v2.adala-asso.com/uploads/photos/73.jpg)

Both purportedly from the Chambre.  http://v2.adala-asso.com/modules/myalbum/viewcat.php?num=9&cid=6
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 01:30:57 AM
David:

I'm starting to think that you are seeing tees everywhere.

Clearly, the men are lying along a built up road or path.  The ladies are sensibly walking along that path.  Where exactly in the Chambre this scene takes place I'm not quite sure.

We'll agree to disagree on the presence of a tee on the beach side of the hole in your photo, my stance being that without clear or corroborating evidence I'm not going to wander into conjecture.  What I do know is that your photo depicts the course at some point after 1919, and since I'm only up to 1909 in my analysis, I don't care to muddy the waters (in a very Muccian way) by discussing it now.  Before moving on, if it helps your analysis, here's a closeup of the area in question.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/19c74ad88d_zps47ae13ef.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/19c74ad88d_zps47ae13ef.jpg.html)

As for the date of the following photo, I believe it predates the Villa Zipa, but I really don't care one way or the other.  When I used it earlier in the thread it was to note two possible locations for CBM's 12th hole, as it was the only photo I'd found at that time that covered the central portion of the Chambre (much the same way that Bryan used modern photos to note the location of the Cliff Hole).  Keep in mind that I've never claimed a specific date for the photo (clearly indicating that I did not have a date for the photo), and would not state that it is definitive evidence of how the land lay when CBM saw the course.  

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps223c3dee.jpeg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps223c3dee.jpeg.html)

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 01:37:12 AM
Another undated photo:
(http://v2.adala-asso.com/uploads/photos/46.jpg)

And a real head scratcher:
(http://v2.adala-asso.com/uploads/photos/73.jpg)

Both purportedly from the Chambre.  http://v2.adala-asso.com/modules/myalbum/viewcat.php?num=9&cid=6

The first photo is a much more recent picture than either of the previously discussed photos, as the bathhouse has been moved inland from its prior location (and Villa Zipa has been moved and replaced by a concrete terrace).

I've seen the second photo, and am not quite sure what to make of it.  It certainly doesn't look like any other image I've seen of the holes in the Chambre, and the bunkering, background and terrain do not match up at all.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 30, 2013, 01:38:45 AM
David, Sven,

Thanks for all the pictures and quotes.  I see nothing conclusive so far as to the intermediate routings around the time of CBM's visit.  There are certainly some likely candidate areas but I think the search will have top continue.  And, we may not recognize it even if we find it because we are not seeing it with CBM's eyes.

Here's another postcard, presumably post 1930 since the villa Zipa is gone, that maybe shows the site of the revised Cliff green. There looks like a flat place part way up the cliff on the right. And, maybe a square former tee area directly below in the sand.

(http://images-00.delcampe-static.net/img_large/auction/000/244/245/110_001.jpg)


Sven,

The Pins and Dunes picture must be from a bit further north up the coast or much later in time.  There are no pines in any of the many photos of the Chambre where the course was.



David,

That last picture is a head scratcher.  The topography doesn't look like the Chambre at all.  Maybe they mislabeled it and it's really from Pau.


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 01:55:47 AM
Bryan:

The green you note is what I've been calling the "new version" of the cliff hole.  Earlier in the thread Pat was confusing other photos of play to this hole with your descriptions and photos of the location of the "old version," thus creating a bit of confusion.  I posted a screencap of what the area of that green looks like today a page or two back.

Haven't pinned down just yet when the switch from old to new occurred.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 30, 2013, 01:59:42 AM
Sven, I was joking about the men leaning on the tee.  I don't see anything resembling a golf course in that photo.  

Looking at the photos you recently posted again, I tend to agree with Bryan.  I think some of them are from further up the coast, past the spot where the Villa stood.  Same goes for the airfield which existed from about 1912 through the war, and the vineyards, etc. Some of the literature refers to that section of the beach as the Chambre as well.  

my stance being that without clear or corroborating evidence I'm not going to wander into conjecture.

I think we are well into conjecture at this point, but that's fine.  

As for the photo you've been using, I think it is a good one to use regardless of the date, because it shows some of the landforms.  I am just hesitant to assume golf features present in the photo (such as the greens) were in those locations in 1906.
______________________________________

Bryan,

That last photo doesn't make much sense to me either, but a few sites claim it is from the Chambre so I thought I'd throw it out there. It looks like it was taken with a very wide lens, and maybe a fisheye lens would distort the background like that, but that is just guessing on my part.  

It is a cool photo, nonetheless.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 30, 2013, 10:35:07 AM
David,

I suppose a fish eye could do it, but the background still doesn't look right, even f it was flattened out.  Also, the green and bunkers (half filled with sand?) appear to me to be more maintained than I would of thought for that era.  Maybe it's from later despite the sepia tones.  Here is a sample fish eye comparison.

(http://v2.adala-asso.com/uploads/photos/73.jpg)

(http://idigitaldarwin.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/fisheye-vs-conventional.jpg)


Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 11:03:22 AM
Regarding the sepia photo, you'd expect to see a portion of the cliff or a view towards the water in the background if this was a shot from in the Chambre.  

To help with dating some of the other photos, it helps to layout out the timeline of several key features that might be shown.

1884 - The first bathhouse (with a peaked roof) is built up against the edge of the beach.
1919 - Villa Zipa is constructed.
1928 - The bathhouse in the middle of the Chambre is reconstructed (this time with a flat roof) thirty yards inland from its old location.
1930 - Villa Zipa is moved to a new location.

So there are four basic time periods:

A. 1884 - 1919 - Peaked roof bathhouse and no Villa Zipa.
B. 1919 - 1928 - Peaked roof bathhouse and Villa Zipa.
C. 1928 - 1930 - Flat roof bathhouse and Villa Zipa.
D. 1930 on - Flat roof bathhouse and no Villa Zipa.

To apply it to the photos:

We already know this photo is from 1904 or before, but it fits time period A:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1904-7_zpsfa9ded48.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1904-7_zpsfa9ded48.png.html)

Here are two that have to be post 1930:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6525307_051010e99b_l_zpsc0211542.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/6525307_051010e99b_l_zpsc0211542.jpg.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/110_001_zps3901b7a2.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/110_001_zps3901b7a2.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 11:47:42 AM
Following up on David's questions about the location of the early version of the Cliff Hole, I think we all agree that it was located on the outcropping of higher land that extended along the northeast part of the Chambre running from the higher inland ground towards the ocean.

This photo, admittedly from some time after 1930, is the best image I've seen of the land forms in that area:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/littoral-anglet_zpse04bf446.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/littoral-anglet_zpse04bf446.jpg.html)

Here is a zoomed in shot of the cliff top and the land below:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/littoral-anglet-2_zps71183fe2.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/littoral-anglet-2_zps71183fe2.jpg.html)

On this shot I've highlighted two possible areas for the green and the area the tee would have been located down below:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/littoral-anglet-3_zps90481918.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/littoral-anglet-3_zps90481918.jpg.html)

Compare the exposed rocky areas on the cliff to the ones that appear in these photos:

From behind the tee:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e86/alfonsoey/Biarritz_14.jpg)

From left of the tee showing the cliff face after it has curved around to the golfer's right:

(http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Images/Parcours/Cham11.jpg)

Again from left and slightly behind the tee:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-Cliff-2.jpg)

I posted this shot earlier (from the 1909 Golf Illustrated article).  My best guess right now is that the photo shows golfers on the Cliff Hole Green, with the background being the land on the other side of the outcropping on which it sat.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1909-3_zps5f4cff3b.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1909-3_zps5f4cff3b.png.html)

Finally, a couple of written accounts of how the hole played.

From 1899:

Now we are back in the eastern corner of the undercliff, and if we are ever going to reach the upper air of the cliff top...we must mount the cliff.  So there is a hole within easy iron shot range on the cliff head, on a green upon a promontory, so that if your are short you come tumbling down the cliff again on this side, and if you are strong you will go over the farther cliff beyond....

From 1903:

A little further on in the present Biarritz course there is a hazard of unusual nature.  This is a cliff face opposing you, up which you have to loft the ball sixty odd feet in the air, with a full mashie shot, or something of that kind.  There are many Biarritz golfers who have played there steadily yet never have ascended that giddy height – that is, never have persuaded their golf ball to mount it – and it is certain there are many who never will.

From 1904:

The fourteenth is the famous "Cliff" hole (see photo), an iron or mashie shot up a cliff 80 feet high, once there the green is large and good.

From 1914:

The circumstances are these: The teeing ground is on the lower level, and it is only some fifty yards from the base of the cliff. The ground in between is rough and stony. The cliff here is about forty yards in height, and, if not vertical in the face, bulges outwards frowningly at the top, while a thin stream of water trickling down at one side seems to add a little more to the fearsomeness of the thing. At the top edge of the cliff there is grassy ground sloping quickly upwards for about a dozen yards until a line of wire is reached, and there the green begins. The fact that the green (which is tolerably large and in two parts, an upper and a lower) then slopes downwards away from the player does not make matters easier. Beyond it is another precipice, but wire netting is there to save the ball from this, and there is some wooden palisading to keep it out of trouble on the left. Then there is a local rule saying that if the ball reaches the top of the cliff, but does not pass the wire, it must be teed again, with loss of distance only, the man not being allowed to play it from the tee side of the wire.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 12:49:48 PM
David:

Wanted to follow up on Hutchinson's timeline as well.  There's an 1899 article in Country Life in which he strongly suggests that he was on site in 1899.  In a letter to the editor regarding the punchbowls on the Biarritz course, he notes:  "on the very day of writing I have been shown one."

http://books.google.com/books?id=WRwiAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA480&dq=biarritz+golf&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zavBUoigGMWp2gX54oCYCA&ved=0CGgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20golf&f=false

If he was indeed there in 1899, the article noted earlier in which the author notes they hadn't seen the course in fourteen years must have been written by someone else.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 30, 2013, 02:09:51 PM
Bryan,  I looks like it was with a fisheye, but even so I agree it doesn't seem to fit.  And even if we could fit it, I don't think it tells us anything.

Sven,  Well that ends my single author theory. I agree that at least the 1908 article was written by someone else, and others may have been as well.  As for the hole numbering, I am inclined to believe that for the period on question No. 9 played down and No. 14 played out, but there seems to have been a change or some confusion beginning in about 1908 or 1909.

As for the location of the original cliff hole green, I think our best source is the old plan.  

I don't think those Cliff tee pictures tell us how far the tee was from the cliff.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 02:35:15 PM
David:

Here's a close up of the early routing map, focusing on the locations of 14 and 15 as marked thereon.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119182_zps9d6c8c32.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119182_zps9d6c8c32.jpg.html)

I marked the same image to highlight the positions of the tee and green (as noted on the map) and to draw a blue line approximately where the base of the cliff lies.  Note the 1914 report (copied below) that states the tee lay 50 yards from the base of the cliff.  Assuming that the 1914 version of the hole was the same as the one we see on this map, it matches up pretty well with a total hole length of 80 yards.  [I'm inclined to think that the various descriptions copied below are all talking about the same version of the hole, especially as they are consistent regarding the fall away nature of the rear of the green, something that wouldn't have been possible on the new or plateau version of the hole identified in other photos.  In addition, the description of the wire below which the player was not allowed to play from is consistent with the various photos we have of the hole when located in this section of the course.  I would note that the estimates of the height of the cliff range from 60 ft to 40 yards in the various reports.]

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz1415_zps040dd45b.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz1415_zps040dd45b.jpg.html)

From 1899:

Now we are back in the eastern corner of the undercliff, and if we are ever going to reach the upper air of the cliff top...we must mount the cliff.  So there is a hole within easy iron shot range on the cliff head, on a green upon a promontory, so that if your are short you come tumbling down the cliff again on this side, and if you are strong you will go over the farther cliff beyond....

From 1903:

A little further on in the present Biarritz course there is a hazard of unusual nature.  This is a cliff face opposing you, up which you have to loft the ball sixty odd feet in the air, with a full mashie shot, or something of that kind.  There are many Biarritz golfers who have played there steadily yet never have ascended that giddy height – that is, never have persuaded their golf ball to mount it – and it is certain there are many who never will.

From 1904:

The fourteenth is the famous "Cliff" hole (see photo), an iron or mashie shot up a cliff 80 feet high, once there the green is large and good.

From 1914:

The circumstances are these: The teeing ground is on the lower level, and it is only some fifty yards from the base of the cliff. The ground in between is rough and stony. The cliff here is about forty yards in height, and, if not vertical in the face, bulges outwards frowningly at the top, while a thin stream of water trickling down at one side seems to add a little more to the fearsomeness of the thing. At the top edge of the cliff there is grassy ground sloping quickly upwards for about a dozen yards until a line of wire is reached, and there the green begins. The fact that the green (which is tolerably large and in two parts, an upper and a lower) then slopes downwards away from the player does not make matters easier. Beyond it is another precipice, but wire netting is there to save the ball from this, and there is some wooden palisading to keep it out of trouble on the left. Then there is a local rule saying that if the ball reaches the top of the cliff, but does not pass the wire, it must be teed again, with loss of distance only, the man not being allowed to play it from the tee side of the wire.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 02:47:44 PM
After reviewing the map and photos a bit more, I'm thinking this is my best guess as to the locations of the green and tee.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/littoral-anglet-4_zpsbecf2803.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/littoral-anglet-4_zpsbecf2803.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 10:28:12 PM
One of the lingering questions after all of this is when did the transition take place from the old version of the Cliff Hole to the new version.

A May, 1921 article by Dunce Scottis (a pen name?) in Golfer's Magazine answers the question.

http://books.google.com/books?id=XOsxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA87&dq=biarritz+north+berwick&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jzbCUsTZC-GIygHZwoHACw&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=biarritz%20north%20berwick&f=false

"The famous chasm hole across a gully from cliff to cliff has been abandoned, but there is a thrilling mashie shot (108 yards) from the beach to a plateau green (it would be called a freak hole in Scotland) near the top of the cliff.  Then there is the excellent eigth hole of the winter course which runs from and along the cliff (338 yards) down to the beach near a cave called the "chamber d'Amour"...."

The article has two relevant photos:

The first is a shot of golfer's on the 8th tee, which matches the numbering for this hole given in the 1909 Golf Illustrated article:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/securedownload1_zps213ece0b.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/securedownload1_zps213ece0b.png.html)

The second depicts the 108 yard plateau green hole described above:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/securedownload_zps52333bd4.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/securedownload_zps52333bd4.png.html)

This second photo is of particular interest, as it depicts what I have previously identified as the "new version" of the Cliff Hole.  Not only is the yardage different from the old version (108 v. 80 yards), but if you examine the photo closely you can make out stone walls both in front of and behind the plateau green (the walls are more evident in other photos of this version of the hole).

Some time between 1914 and 1921 the course was altered so that the exit from the Chambre D'Amour was moved closer to the location of the tee for the hole that took you into it.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 30, 2013, 10:48:41 PM
Interesting in the first photo that the new green is not visible.  I guess the angle could be a little off.

The angle is different in the second photo as well, but the tee location looks similar to the photo where it looks as if the golfer is standing in the rough.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/_Biarritz-Cliff.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 11:02:07 PM
This new version of the Cliff Hole is marked on the three later routing maps that have surfaced.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Golf%20Courses/Biarritz-1931.jpg)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Colt_Plan_zpsb8716b1c.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Colt_Plan_zpsb8716b1c.jpg.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/plan_BIARRITZ-f310a_zps598d9308.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/plan_BIARRITZ-f310a_zps598d9308.jpg.html)

The change would have meant that at least three holes were no longer in use, that being the hole leading up to the old Cliff Hole, the old Cliff Hole itself and the old 15th which played from near the location of the old Cliff Hole green to a green up above where the new Cliff Hole was located.  The following map is marked to show these old holes in blue and the new hole in green (the holes preceding holes being marked in orange).  Since we know that this hole was in use in 1921, it predates any changes made to the course based on Harry Colt's recommendations, as the first correspondence between the architect and the club did not take place until 1922 and the changes weren't implemented until 1924.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps444eb881.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps444eb881.jpg.html)

Here are some additional photos of the hole (all of these are copied from earlier in this thread).

From below the plateau green:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/_Biarritz-Cliff.jpg)

The green as seen from near the 8th tee:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/dmoriarty/Biarritz-tee-into-Chambre.jpg)

A shot at green level:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/CliffHoleGreen2_zps5647feb4.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/CliffHoleGreen2_zps5647feb4.jpg.html)

Here's a current image of the location of the green:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/NewCliffHole_zpsc52877bc.png) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/NewCliffHole_zpsc52877bc.png.html)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 11:07:21 PM
David:

My guess is that the green is obscured by the brush in that first photo.  Note that the other photo I just posted is taken from a higher angle, bringing the green into view.

The two photos from below the green make it seem like the tee shot was closer to straight up the hill, as opposed to angled along its side.  But the markings on the cliff line in the background are identical and consistent with other photos of the man made stone walls both in front of and behind the green, a feature that is not found anywhere near the location of the old Cliff Hole (nor in any photos of that version).

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 30, 2013, 11:18:15 PM
There are two photos I'd like to get a better look at that I've only seen in slideshows available from the club's website.

The first is found in the slideshow accessible by clicking on the photo on the bottom left of this page:  http://golfbiarritz1888.ovh.org/Parcours.html

The second is one of the photos in this gif:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/1931_zpsaed16d6d.gif) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/1931_zpsaed16d6d.gif.html)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 31, 2013, 01:35:54 AM
Not sure if anyone mentioned it: one of those articles Sven quoted, from 1899, that talked about the original chasm hole, also said another hole back then played out to the lighthouse.  It called it "the lighthouse hole."  

My guess is the lighthouse hole immediately followed the original chasm hole.  But I don't recall seeing that on any of the routing maps or suggested routing maps we came up with.  Doesn't that put a different twist -- another routing -- onto the Biarritz table?  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on December 31, 2013, 02:27:59 AM
Sven,

Sometime back on page 2 I ovelaid the early routing on the a modern aerial.  At the time I didn't go as far north as the cliff hole as I was focused on the chasm hole.  The routing was to scale and overlaid nicely on the current road system.  I've now done the overlay for the original 14th.  It is where I placed it with current photos back earlier in the thread.  I think you're positioning with the oblique aerial is pretty close.  The tee should probably be a little closer to the cliff and a bit to the right and the green a bit to the right.  The tee was approximately equidistant from the curve in the road and the base of the cliff to the right.  I have highlighted the old road in yellow.  

If the original routing map 12th was CBM's inspiration, the green must have been close to the "bains" house or perhaps the bains was built on the green site.  The original 12th green is now under the pool of the current hotel.

(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/350dtm/8bb1bd79-035a-4bfa-86f8-1b0754314ffd.jpg~original)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 31, 2013, 02:44:37 AM
Bryan:

When CBM visited, the hole going down into the Chambre was either the 8th or 9th hole (see my posts from the last two days, specifically those dealing with the articles from 1904, 1908 and 1909 and David's post which contains the actual articles).  This means that the hole you note would then have been the 9th or 10th.

The early routing you used for the overlay doesn't reflect two holes that were added down in the Chambre, both of which are evident in photos.  I've covered this interim routing a few times earlier in the thread.

My best guess at this point is that the 12th in 1906 was one of those two new holes, both of which lay on the inland side of the road.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 31, 2013, 02:49:50 AM
Not sure if anyone mentioned it: one of those articles Sven quoted, from 1899, that talked about the original chasm hole, also said another hole back then played out to the lighthouse.  It called it "the lighthouse hole."  

My guess is the lighthouse hole immediately followed the original chasm hole.  But I don't recall seeing that on any of the routing maps or suggested routing maps we came up with.  Doesn't that put a different twist -- another routing -- onto the Biarritz table?  

Jim:

Take a look at post #205 in this thread.  There's an early description of two holes that linked the location of the chasm hole with the holes in the Grouse Moor.  I included a rough guess of the routing based on that description, and its possible that the hole I marked as #4 on the map in that post is the one noted in that quote as playing out to the lighthouse.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 31, 2013, 03:07:26 AM
Sven, I saw that routing.  But I thought the lighthouse was/is in a very different location than number four on that map.  I thought the lighthouse is up in the area that is covered by the scorecard box.  Probably around the yardage listed for number 12.  

Here's the exact quote from the Golf article you excerpted:

"A great feature of the old course used to be the "Chasm" hole.  That particular hole is taken away.  At one time there used to be a particular hole out to the Phare, the lighthouse.  That ground too, has been used by the builder....Ground has since been taken into play which gives an area many acres larger than the area of the course when the "Chasm" and the "Lighthouse" holes were in use..."

So if I understand the quote right, the lighthouse hole went out close to the lighthouse, or at least in its direction.  Like the original chasm hole, it was lost to real estate construction.

On that routing map you laid out, I assume the lighthouse hole followed the chasm hole.  It tee would have been somewhere near the 3rd (chasm) green.  The hole played up into that little peninsula the lighthouse sat upon.  

If so, that would require another hole to get back out of the lighthouse area.  i.e. if I'm right, we're missing at least two entire holes.  
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 31, 2013, 10:34:50 AM
Jim:

In that post 205, I noted the routing was just a rough sketch.  

The early descriptions of the Chasm Hole note it is was a drive and a pitch hole of around 200 or 220 yards (the carry over the chasm was only 80 yards), and probably extended further out towards the lighthouse than I depicted in that sketch.  If that is the case, then 4 gets pushed further out that little penninsula, and 5 is moved accordingly to bring us back towards the Grouse Moor.  This configuration is based on this 1893 description:

“[After discussing the Chasm Hole] The next two holes are short but abounding in difficulty; then at the sixth, the Pau golfer stands aghast.  "This!" he says; "what is this?  Is it a grouse-moor or deer-forest?"...He often says words to this effect, but more so, during the next three holes...but after the ninth hole the grouse-moor is left behind."

Does it help the analysis if the map is redrawn to look like this (again, just a rough sketch, especially so for holes 6-9 playing over the Grouse Moor, as I have no idea how those holes were laid out)?

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps07063779.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps07063779.jpg.html)

Sven

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Jim Nugent on December 31, 2013, 11:32:14 AM
Sven, that's my read of it.  

Talk about a fluid golf course.  Makes me wonder what kind of course they could have produced, had they been able to use the best holes of each version.  

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 31, 2013, 11:51:38 AM
Jim:

An interesting thought, as I think there's a layout that could have used both versions of each of the Chasm and Cliff Holes (assuming no housing issues).  Add in the other holes into and down in the Chambre, the nastiness of the Grouse Moor, the interesting short but narrow 15th and the various features that dotted the landscape near the clubhouse (including the Punchbowl, Shand's Ravine and the Dell Hole).

It may not have been the longest course, but it would have been replete with interesting shots.

It is interesting to note that when Harry Colt offered his recommendations for changes in the early 1920's he commented on the plethora of short drive and pitch holes and that the course needed to be lengthened.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Adam Lawrence on December 31, 2013, 12:23:56 PM

It is interesting to note that when Harry Colt offered his recommendations for changes in the early 1920's he commented on the plethora of short drive and pitch holes and that the course needed to be lengthened.

Sven

I think that would have been true of almost every course whose bones predated the Haskell ball, unless they had been systematically upgraded since it's introduction.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 31, 2013, 12:36:46 PM
Adam:

I agree.  The point I was trying to make was that however interesting the "mythical" course that Jim and I envisioned, it would have been a collection of very short holes.

All:

Wanted to revisit this photo of the old version of the Cliff Hole which was the subject of a bit of confusion earlier in the thread.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e86/alfonsoey/Biarritz_14.jpg)

I would propose that the photo was taken when the hole playing into the Chambre was the 8th (per the 1908 and 1909 Golf Illustrated articles noted above).  This would make the Cliff Hole the 13th, matching certain earlier interpretations of what is written on the white box.  The yardage on the box appears to match the 80 yards quoted for the distance of the Cliff Hole.

Here's the text of the 1909 article:

Two striking features of the course are the tee shot down [text cut off] to the eighth hole, and the approach up to the thirteenth; these [down] and up shots are rendered necessary by the fact that the [?] from eight to twelve are on the shore level, the others being [?] top of the cliff."

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 31, 2013, 04:45:36 PM
Perhaps its time for the Cliff Notes version of the major points I attempted to convey over the last few pages of this thread (with due credit to the many other posters who covered some of this ground before):

A.  There was a longstanding and oft-cited belief that the inspiration for CBM's Biarritz template was the Chasm Hole at the Biarritz Golf Course.

B.  Pursuant to CBM and Whigham, the hole that served as the inspiration was the 12th, with each man noting the landforms leading up to the green as being the key features.

C.  Although, the Chasm Hole was cited as the 3rd hole on the course, reports claim it was also numbered the 12th.

D.  It is clear in the record by the time that CBM and Whigham visited Biarritz in 1906, the Chasm Hole was no longer part of the course, and no record exists of it ever having been numbered as the 12th hole (or anything other than the 3rd at any time during the existence of the original or shortened versions).

E.  Based on photos and contemporaneous reports, when CBM and Whigham visited Biarritz the 12th hole would have been located in the Chambre D'Amour.

F.  Due to a change in the numbers of the holes in the Chambre that occurred some time between 1904 and 1908 (assuming the reported facts in the articles accurately reflect the state of the course as of their published dates), the most likely candidates for the 12th hole that CBM and Whigham would have seen (and thus the inspiration for the Biarritz template) are the two holes preceding the version Cliff Hole in existence during that time frame.

Note I am not espousing any belief in this "most likely candidate" theory beyond the level of prudent conjecture (there's that word again).  Based on my study of the contemporaneous descriptions of the course, the dated and undated photographs, the various versions of the routing maps and a healthy dose of practicality, it is the answer that makes the most sense to me.  If others wish to delve through the 12 plus pages of this thread and offer any questions, contrary opinions or doses of skepticism, or if new information comes to light, I'm happy to listen.

To put the words of the theory into pictures, here are the two candidates for the identity of our mythical 12th Hole:

1.  If CBM's visit occurred at a time when the hole entering the Chambre D'Amour was numbered as the 9th and the Cliff Hole was numbered as the 14th, this hole would have been the 12th:

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119183_zps04ba57c3.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119183_zps04ba57c3.jpg.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/6870869_ab9ee5a733_l_zps785bbba5.jpeg)

2.  If CBM's visit occurred after the hole entering the Chambre D'Amour became the 8th (and the Cliff Hole accordingly became the 13th), this would have been the 12th (with due credence given to Ally and others who pointed out this hole as a possibility early on in the thread, it took me a while to work out when and how this hole could have been numbered as the 12th):

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119182_zps410337a7.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps019119182_zps410337a7.jpg.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/Biarritz_96_zpsdc6a9997.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/Biarritz_96_zpsdc6a9997.jpg.html)

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/13th_zps04870a4d.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/13th_zps04870a4d.jpg.html)

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on December 31, 2013, 05:05:59 PM
Sven,

In "C." you wrote "reports claim it was also numbered the 12th."  By "reports" do you mean modern claims that CBM was referring to the Chasm hole?  Because Iam unaware of any contemporaneous reports that that ever had the Chasm hole as the 12th hole.

As for the early routing, here is the Nov. 29, 1890 letter to golf from the Secretary of the Club (from google books.)  Note that some of the holes were the same as the later map, so fitting together the routing for the 1890-91 season should be easy.  (On your earliest routing you have holes in the Grouse Moor, but I don't think those holes were added until he course was expanded to 18.)

GOLF AT BIARRITZ.
To the Editor of Golf.

Sir,—Some of your readers may like to hear some account of our links at Biarritz. Our club, which is getting on for three years old, is now in a most flourishing condition, having gone through some difficulties, pecuniary and otherwise, during its infancy. The links are rapidly improving, and bad lies through the green, though still, alas not uncommon, are steadily getting less frequent; while the putting-greens are really very fair for so young a course, and turf does not grow so kindly as it does at Pau and other places. The hazards are numerous and varied—the Bay of Biscay being one of our largest—and comprise whins, ravines, roads, lanes, Danks, and almost every variety, except, perhaps, sand bunkers, for although this is a sea-side place, our links are more of the nature of an inland course, being situated high up, many feet above the sea level. The view from the links is very fine, having the broad expanse of the Bay of Biscay to the west. The snow-clad mountains of the high Pyrenees to the east, long stretches of pine forest to the north, and the low Pyrenees and the Spanish hills to the south. The club-house, a commodious villa, stands very conveniently in the centre of the ground, and is not a quarter of an hour's walk from several hotels, British Club, &c. Our resident professional, Willie Dunn, late of North Berwick, is always on hand to give lessons, and has a large stock of clubs, balls, and every golfing requisite. There is a ladies' club, and their course of nine holes is separate from the other links, and is a very sporting course, with plenty of hazards, not too difficult, but just difficult enough. I can only say that any golfers wishing to spend the winter in the south will meet with a hearty welcome, and opportunities of playing the game under by no means unfavourable conditions.

The following is a brief account of the nine holes, and it will take a scratch player fully forty to do the round on a fair golfing day. For medals and prizes, two rounds, of course, are played :—

1st Hole.—The " Pigeon Hole," so called from its being near the pigeon-shooting house. A fair drive brings you to the edge of some rough, broken ground, covered with clumps of sedge grass,'i6o yards from the tee ; a cleek, or brassy shot will easily carry the rough ground, which is about 80 yards in extent, and a short iron shot will be probably wanted to reach the green, which is 300 yards from the tee.

2nd Hole.—The " Sea Hole." A good drive will get you on towards the corner of the road, which is 200 yards from the tee ; from here, a full iron shot will reach the green. A careful approach is wanted here, as the hole is on a strip of turf, 30 yards wide, between the road and the edge of the cliff; a ball pulled round to the left will go over the cliff into the Bay of Biscay, a ball sent too much to the right will drop out of bounds, into some cultivated land, which entails loss of stroke and distance, while too gay a shot in the right direction will land you in some whins beyond the hole. The hole is 260 yards.

3rd Hole.—The "Chasm Hole." "Long lines of cliff breaking have left a chasm," as the Poet Laureate says, and on the edge of this chasm is the teeing ground for the third hole. The chasm is 80 yards across to the further edge, so you must loft that much. If you top your ball and go down, you tee another and play three, as there is no playing out of the chasm. The caddies, however, can get down and recover balls, so let not the golfer who has a frugal mind be deterred from coming here on that account. The green is 120 yards on from the further edge, so it may be reached easily in a drive and an iron shot.

4th Hole —The "Long Hole." Ten yards in front of the tee is a large and "hairy" hedge, then comes a skittle ground, and then a corner of a cultivated field, which is out of bounds, so a topped or foozled ball entails the loss of stroke and distance. But 60 yards clears all these impediments, and after the teed shot there are no formidable hazards to be encountered, only a disused road with a small ditch on each side, which runs parallel with the line to the hole for some distance. This hole is 480 yards.

5th Hole.—The "Punch-bowl Hole." Any drive over 120 yards will clear a bank and narrow lane which crosses the line to the hole ; a good brassy shot will then bring you somewhere; near the Punchbowl, a deep circular pit, with nearly perpendicular sides, and about thirty yards in diameter. This hazard is in the direct line to the hole, and some 300 yards from the tee, and 80 yards in front of the hole. The green may be reached in two good drives and an iron shot, and is 400 yards from the tee.

6th Hole.—"Shand's." A fair drive of 160 yards brings you to the edge of " Shand's Ravine," called after our President, Lord Shand ; a creek or brassy shot will take you over, but the lies are not bad if you get in, and a short approach shot will lay you on the green. This hole is 320 yards.

7th Hole.—The " Hole Across." This is an iron shot of about 115 yards across what used to be a maize field, and if the ball drops on the green this hole may be done, and often is, in two.

8th Hole.—The "Dell Hole." This hole is also a short one, being about 160 yards, a foozled ball is punished by bad lies, and in front of the hole is a deepish dell about forty yards across, but which is quite easy to play out of if you drop in, as many do.

9th Hole.—The " Home Hole." This wants an accurately directed teed shot, as there is the Punchbowl on the right, and the Dell on the left, both about 130 yards from the tee; but having avoided these hazards, you have good lying ground for 200 yards, then a narrow lane, with deep banks to cross, and 80 yards on to the hole. This hole is 360 yards.

Thus the nine holes are a few yards short of a mile and ahalf, and form a very fair and sporting course.

The ladies' round is a little more than 700 yards in length, and the holes vary from 50 to 120 yards, and want plenty of iron play.

I am, Sir,
Sec, C. De LACY-LACY, Hon. Sec.
Biarritz, November 29th.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 31, 2013, 05:16:06 PM
David:

I did mean modern claims when discussing the Chasm Hole being numbered as the 12th.  I think we agree that the idea that the Chasm Hole was ever the 12th Hole is a latter-day fallacy.

I noted that 1890 letter earlier in the thread, and came up with a routing that was my best guess as to how those nine holes played and which ones survived into later iterations of the course (see posts 186 and 204).

Here's part of my writeup and the routing map from post #204:

I'd surmise that the routing of the original course was as follows:

1st Hole - Probably played along the same corridor as the 1st on the map.
2nd Hole - Probably played along the same corridor as the 2nd on the map.
3rd Hole - Along the cliff edge near the location of the 2nd green on the map.
4th Hole - From somewhere close to where we believe the 3rd green lay (near the X on the map) to a location near where the 5th tee would have been.
5th Hole - Played over the Punch Bowl, suggesting it ran on a similar line to the 10th hole on the map but longer.
6th Hole - The same as 16 on the map.
7th Hole - A short hole of 115 yards that played from near the 16th green to close to the 17th tee on the map.
8th Hole - The same as 17 on the map
9th Hole - Close to the same as 18 on the map, playing between the Punchbowl on the right and the Dell on the left.

Here's the map with the original 9 hole routing marked, with one possible solution for how 4 and 5 worked (each marked in orange).  For the perfectionists in the group, this is only meant to be a rough attempt at identifying the routing.

(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps017af4a7.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/snilsen7/media/BiarritzPlanUndated_zps017af4a7.jpg.html)

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on December 31, 2013, 05:27:47 PM
David:

I think MacWood would have loved this thread and I'm sorry he isn't around to participate.  I miss the days when the front page of the discussion group was littered with topics that emphasized the two quotes we include in the footers of our posts.

All the best,

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on January 01, 2014, 03:02:13 PM
Sorry Sven, I had forgotten you covered the 1890 routing earlier in the thread.   From where did you come up with the nine hole routing utilizing the Grouse Moor? I was thinking the Grouse Moor was first utilized when the course was expanded to 18 holes but before the Chambre was utilized, but I could be misremembering that as well.


As for Tom MacWood, I miss his contributions very much.  The website is a much lesser place without him, as is the overall discussion of golf course architecture. Ten thousand "Look Where I Played!" threads couldn't replace a single of his well-researched and well-considered posts.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 01, 2014, 07:40:13 PM
If you're talking about the nine holes drawn on the map in my response to Jim above, I just stopped adding in holes as they weren't needed for the point made in the post, which was to guesstimate the location of the 4th and 5th holes.  That map (and the one it was meant to clarify from post #205) were drawn to depict the course based on an 1893 written description, when it had 18 holes with holes 6-9 lying in the Grouse Moor.  I don't think the Grouse Moor was ever in play as part of any 9 hole iteration.

Sven
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: DMoriarty on January 01, 2014, 07:45:32 PM
Gotcha.  Thanks.  And Happy New Year!
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Sven Nilsen on January 16, 2020, 10:33:57 AM
An oldie but a goodie.


Adding in two photos of the new version of the Cliff Hole (as discussed earlier in the thread).


(https://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/A1%20Album/Biarritz%20New%20Cliff%20Hole%20Tee_zpsvvluloni.jpg)


(https://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/A1%20Album/Biarritz%20New%20Cliff%20Hole%20Green_zpsgohv9t8a.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: MCirba on January 16, 2020, 10:40:50 AM
Great photos, Sven.


What would you estimate the Cliff Hole tee to green elevation change was?  It looks as much as 40 feet or so.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Peter Flory on January 16, 2020, 01:20:53 PM

Just adding to some of the previous info on this hole 

The remnants of the green site are still there to the left of the turn in the road that climbs up the cliff. 

(https://i.ibb.co/ZKb5XpQ/Biarritz-cliff-hole-GE-3-D-2.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/FK1sGgP/Biarritz-cliff-hole-with-drawing.jpg)

So, to calculate the rise on google earth- the green site is 85 feet above see level.  The street where I drew the golfer is about 25 feet.  So, it looks like it was at most a 60 foot elevation rise.  But it may have been less if the teeing area was built up over what is currently the street. 
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: MCirba on January 16, 2020, 02:30:15 PM
Too cool, Peter...thanks!
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Michael Whitaker on January 18, 2020, 03:38:33 PM
This is one of the most interesting threads. I wish all the missing photos could be restored.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tom_Doak on January 18, 2020, 04:20:20 PM

Someday I hope to build a golf hole something like this, if only to freak people out.


(https://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/A1%20Album/Biarritz%20New%20Cliff%20Hole%20Tee_zpsvvluloni.jpg)


(https://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc435/snilsen7/A1%20Album/Biarritz%20New%20Cliff%20Hole%20Green_zpsgohv9t8a.jpg)
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Adam Clayman on January 19, 2020, 12:43:49 PM
The Original 10th at Blackwolf Run had an approach just like that. I recall hitting my 185 club from 145, coming up just short. It allowed me to experience another one of Pete's humorous jokes. After literally climbing the front face, my eye was treated to a ground levell perspective of the flattest green I'ver seen. (NLE) 

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Thomas Dai on January 19, 2020, 01:48:54 PM
What an evil shot back in the days of wooden shafts and heads and iffy golf balls and jackets and ties.
Similarities if you fail to reach the putting surface with the approach to greensites akin to the 11th at Pennard, the 5th at Bb-Cashen, the 12th at Enniscone or the 7th at Carne? Mind only two of these mentioned are par-3's.
atb
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Kalen Braley on January 19, 2020, 07:50:44 PM
Can't help but wonder if Pete Dye got at least some of his inspiration from old holes like this in building those insanely deep bunkers right next to greens at PGA West, Whistling Straits, etc.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Tony_Muldoon on January 20, 2020, 06:21:57 AM
Thank you Sven and thank you Peter, wonderful stuff.


Peter the illustration you give is of the Cliff Hole playing out of the Chamber D'Amour. I'm assuming these images are new to Google earth? Would you like to try the same thing for the Chasm Hole discussed earlier in the thread. (Even though it cant be fully seen Brian Izatt has a course overlay in Post 36)


I'm on a promise to take the wife to the Hotel du Palais. We had a big anniversary last year, but it was closed for refurbishment prior to hosting the G6 - Biarritz has not lost all its glamour of old. With the right evidence I'm even prepared to knock on a door to request to see a back garden! 







Just adding to some of the previous info on this hole 

The remnants of the green site are still there to the left of the turn in the road that climbs up the cliff. 

(https://i.ibb.co/ZKb5XpQ/Biarritz-cliff-hole-GE-3-D-2.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/FK1sGgP/Biarritz-cliff-hole-with-drawing.jpg)

So, to calculate the rise on google earth- the green site is 85 feet above see level.  The street where I drew the golfer is about 25 feet.  So, it looks like it was at most a 60 foot elevation rise.  But it may have been less if the teeing area was built up over what is currently the street.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on January 20, 2020, 12:55:35 PM


Tony,


The green site for for the chasm hole based on the routing map should be in the back yard of the mansion at 17 Avenue General Mac Croskey, opposite the intersection of Boulevard de la Mer and Avenue Edith Cavell.  There's a white gate in the hedge row.  It doesn't look too inviting.  The house immediately to the East would be where the tee was - somewhere near their pool.


A more intrepid approach would be to climb up the ravine between the two from the Chambre side. :)  Maybe there's be some old balls there although there appears to be lots of erosion in the last century.


 
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Peter Flory on January 20, 2020, 01:51:21 PM
On Google Earth, make sure that you click on the "3D Buidlings" option under Layers.  That not only shows the buildings, but it gives a much more realistic view of the terrain and the foliage. 


The modern day version of the course looks like it still has some really dramatic features. 

Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Mark Fedeli on January 28, 2020, 04:45:28 PM
Always great to see this thread bubble up again. Has always been my favorite on GCA.


Is this the only modern research that lays out how the Biarritz green inspiration was not the Chasm? I've not really seen it discussed in detail anywhere else. I only see the Chasm claim incorrectly repeated — including by people who should know better.
Title: Re: The original Biarritz
Post by: Bryan Izatt on January 29, 2020, 02:32:17 AM
This is one of the most interesting threads. I wish all the missing photos could be restored.


Mike and Others,


If the missing photos are ones that are blurred out by the Photobucket watermark, be aware that there are browser extensions out there that will take away the blurring and enable normal viewing of the pictures.  Just Google "Photobucket blurry fix" and find an and install an extension for your browser.