Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: A.G._Crockett on January 12, 2006, 10:01:55 PM
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Word now in Atlanta is that Lanier CC (formerly Canongate-on-Lanier) will be sold for real estate sometime in late '06 or early '07. It is an excellent and demanding Joe Lee design that has hosted a number of events over the years, and it'll be missed. I was a member of the Canongate clubs back in the 80's, and played a lot of golf at Lanier.
With the closing of Canterbury and Hidden Hills, following a couple of years after Jeff Brauer's Centennial, along with some Myrtle Beach courses, I started counting up the NLE's (or soon to be NLE's) that I have played. I think I'm up to 10 (or 11), and wondered how many others might be able to count from their experience.
My list:
Canterbury (Atlanta)
Carper's Valley (Winchester, VA)
Centennial (Atlanta)
Lanier (Atlanta)
Bay Tree (3 courses, M.B., 2 closing this year)
Calabash (M.B.)
Ocean Harbour (M.B.)
Marsh Harbor (M.B., not certain about this one, but it's been closed several years now)
Eastport (M.B.)
I'll add Finley G.C. at UNC; the old course wasn't rebuilt by Fazio. He completely rerouted it, using most of the same site, but it is a totally different course now.
That's all I can think of right now; maybe more will come to mind. This doesn't include "Mike Rubish's Golf City", a par 3 in Durham, NC where I learned to play, now covered by a Toys-R-Us, among other things. It's not a World's Top 100 list, but I've never met a golf course I didn't like, and I liked all of these.
List yours?
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Just in Atlanta:
Centennial
Metropolitan
Hidden Hills (soon to be)
I guess the odds are higher in a sprawling, real estate-consuming metro area.
AD
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Thorngate, Northbrook Illinois. The site of Jack's 367 yard drive with his three wood in the early sixties.
The Tropicana, The Dunes- Didn't both of those use to host the pros?
If it's true about Marsh Harbor, Marsh Harbor. Is Oyster Bay still around?
How about the shortest life of a course? There was a nine holer in downtown Chicago, I never played and since its gone never will. It must've been less than ten years old. I'm sure shivas will now more
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If it's true about Marsh Harbor, Marsh Harbor. Is Oyster Bay still around?
It is true that Marsh Harbour is closed, and from what I have heard, there are no intentions of re-opening it.
Oyster Bay is still operating.
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I was fortunate to have played The Links Golf Club in NY before it was closed, with P.B. Dye ... one of my most memorable rounds.
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Not many-
Malvern GC
Valley Forge GC (just closed)
Upper Perk
Locust Valley, both soon to be NLE
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Only 1 that I know of.... Desert Inn.
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Tom,
You have one photo in your book, do you have any more?
I've played a few mentioned, but most don't strike me as crushing losses.
The Toronto area course I got to play was called Box Grove and was quite legendary for its privacy. It was later sold to IBM who ran the club for a number of years (this is when I played the 18 regularly for $7. as a junior guest). The course went down to nine and may still operate as nine now, but I'm not sure anymore. It was a loss, I really enjoyed the course with the river run of 6 to 14 being quite spectacular.
I have played a couple of Thompsons before really bad renovations destroyed all that was Thompson. I'm now trying to put a couple of those back together.
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Probably nobody will have heard of these courses, but I've played two NLEs.
Talbot Park GC in St. Thomas, ON. The course dated from about 1899, I believe, and was formerly the home of the St. Thomas G&CC (http://www.stthomasgolf.com/), before they moved to their present location at the Stanley Thompson-designed course in nearby Union, ON in the early 1930s. It was a 9-hole course surrounded on three sides by railroad tracks. It featured well-bunkered greens and huge, majestic trees. It closed in the late 90's and is now a Wal-Mart.
Lindsay G&CC in Lindsay, ON. This course also dated from the turn of the century. It closed 3 or 4 years ago, when the Lindsay G&CC (http://www.lindsaygolf.com/) moved to a new 18-hole course designed by Graham Cooke. It was also a 9-holer with some neat old-style bunkering. It had some pretty bad holes, but also a few great ones, including a short, blind par-3 over a pond to a hilltop greensite. It is now a grocery store, an Office Depot, and a housing development.
Hopefully I won't have a chance to play any more NLEs.
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I think my total is only one, the nine-hole Charleswood G.C., formerly Alcrest G.C. I'm unclear as to the architectural lineage of the golf course, but Stanley Thompson has been linked to it, but the extend remains unclear. A few really good greens, but overall a pretty basic design.
TK
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As Craig said, the Desert Inn; and the irony is, the new Wynn CC which sits on top of it may also be a "soon to be NLE".........
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That I can think of:
-Font Hill, exec. near Ellicot City, MD
-Gator Hole (N. Myrtle Beach)
-Ocean Harbour (MB area)
-Sing Sing (or something other name, par 3 course was in Horseheads, NY on Sing Sing Rd.)
-Paint Branch (9 of the original 18, College Park, MD)
-Blue Heron Pines (East), Egg Harbor Township, NJ, though the members supposedly have a stop on the demolition of the course due to some wording in their home contract about the development always being 36 holes.
soon to be NLE:
Bay Tree (2 of the 3)
10 years ago, I was on my way to play Eagle Crest south of Raleigh, NC, I got a flat a mile from the course, changed it, and never got to play. It NLE.
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Riviera CC......
Well at least its on its way to being non-existing or a shell of its former self, with the work a certain modern architect is doing there. The more and more I think of him screwing it up, the more and more I would love to get a good kick at his balls.....Just one good Garo Yapremeum-like kick.
Other LA area courses:
The Big Tee--Buena Park. (Bill Johnson) (an institution in these parts--they've sold about 20 houses on the lot now going for about a million a piece.)
Imperial GC--Brea (Harry & David Rainville) (houses and houses and houses and houses everywhere)
Birch Hills--Brea (Harry & David Rainville) (shopping center got about 6 holes of this executive course directly across the street from where Imperial was. Award winning golf architect Cal Olson replaced those six with six stink bombs. So bad that I can smell them right now, five miles away from here.)
Lost Canyons-Shadow Course (Perry Dye) (Soon to be NLE, this will be Perry's 2nd in the LA area to be destroyed in the interests of better taste. I would assume that as soon as Donald figures out that Ocean Trails is a complete and utter failure, that will be #3 for Perry)
Cypress Golf Course--(Perry Dye) (Some would have gladly paid to have this Doak "0" removed from the face of the planet. It was pretty bad. No, make that REALLY bad.)
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Pound Ridge GC (NY) - Public 9 hole course that for years was run by a grouchy old guy who knew he was going to sell the property. The perfect place for kids that did not allow kids. ???
The original Stone Harbor GC (NJ) also called The Jersey Devil. While the new course takes a few shots around here, it is much much better than the old.
The previously mentioned Valley Forge GC (PA).
Soon to be NLE - Blue Heron Pines - Smyers, a very good course.
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Tommy N.-
A Garo kick is certainly more effective than a Garo pass!!
(Did you know Garo belongs to Inniscrone?)
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Upper Perkiomen also known as "Upper Perk" in Pennsburg, PA will soon be bulldozed for houses. A 1.5 on the Doak Scale.
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Centenial, the old Standard Club Course in Atlanta, and Sea Island Seaside before the Fazio changes and reconfigurations.
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I was fortunate to have played The Links Golf Club in NY before it was closed, with P.B. Dye ... one of my most memorable rounds.
Tom, I enjoyed your pictures in George's book. I was thinking about The Links Club the other day. I just find it hard to believe that the members would let such a seemingly good club go to ruin. Apparently they were down to about 13 members.
I know that Tom Paul has some stories, as he commented on The Links in another thread awhile back.
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Whoops, Tommy reminded me of Lost Canyons (Shadow) as a soon to be NLE. Add that one to my list above.
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Lorne Rubenstein's told me he use to play Stanley Thompson's old St. Andrews golf course ( opened for play in 1927), on upper Yonge Street in Toronto. St. Andrews might be the most intriguing NLE in Canada.
Reportedly, Thompson designed the course "in association with an eminent Scottish architect"... with "a number of the holes being built to correspond as nearly as possible with the world-famous links... at St. Andrews, Scotland."
Lorne was a kid when the place closed. So, unfortunately, his memories of St. Andrews are faded.
Ian: have you run into anyone with memories of old St. Andrews, Toronto? Curious...
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Scott,
Our beloved Louviers /Deerfield looks to be heading toward NLE
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I will happily add the Shadow Course at Lost Canyons to my list. ;D
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I drive by Valley Forge on the way to work and noticed yesterday on a day near 60 degrees that no one was out there and no flags were on the greens. :'(
Have the sold the property for development?
Please don't tell me that my 1 hour and 15 minute commute will now become 1 hour 45 minutes due to a massive increase in the congestion around that area??
Other NLE's
Marsh Harbour - SC
Malvern - PA
Montgomeryville - PA (now reconsituted as Ron Prichard's Pinecrest)
Blue Heron Pines East (soon, I guess)
Eagle Lodge - PA (now reconstituted as Warren Henderson/Gary Player's ACE Club)
Hidden Springs CC - PA - (now reconstituted as Arnold Palmer/Ed Seay's Commonwealth CC)
Yorktowne GC - PA - (now reconstituted as James Ganley's Hawk Lake GC)
also saddened to hear that Deerfield looks to be going the way of the dinosaur. I had a career round there one day.
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Eagle Lodge --Now there's a course that needed to be blown up---NOT!
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Marsh Harbour..don't remember it much, though their "showcase" hole was that weird two-island par 5.
Valley Forge....didn't know this was closed now, played it once in 4/1996.
And what is the deal with Grenelefe? My dad and I had a long weekend there for a few years running, the golf was solid if not spectacular, but the last year we were there (perhaps 00 or 01) the service and golf were already going downhill, causing us to play Diamondback and Southern Dunes instead of multiple rounds at Grene. I've seen conflicting reports over what they are doing with the place, everything from demolishing everything and starting over to a padlock being on the front and a skeleton crew keeping the wilderness from taking control.
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Mayday
Have you heard something about Deerfield that I have not??? The last I heard the State of Delaware bought the golf course and was looking for an operator. I passed on the deal.
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Rob,
You would know more than me; my information was from this summer, a developer who was a friend of the guy who wanted to buy it led me to believe it was a goner. I surely hope I am wrong.
I will do a search of the News Journal.
www.state.de.us/.../2005/07july/ 070705%20-%20state%20to%20preserve%20145%20acres%20near%20white%20clay.shtml -
Link to story confirming the State bought the property. Thank you Rob.
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Timber Trails in suburban Chicago, a pretty penal public track sold for housing this year..all you tree haters would have REALLY hated this one!!!
sad if Blue Heron Pines goes, just because it is/was? a pretty good golf course...seemed a bit overpriced , though...think the fee was about $80
I'll always remember my round at the old Desert Inn, just because the wind gusts were clocked at 47 mph that day...and kudos to my wife, as she finished the round too!...
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Mayday Mike,
I didn't add Deerfield to my list because I had heard what Rob heard. I hadn't given up hope yet! :) I want to get back there again for a round some day...
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I played Tropicana in Vegas in 1960 on the 4th of July teeing off at noon. It had to be a gazillion degrees in the shade. I think Adam Clayman was my caddie, but my brain was so fried I'm not really sure..... ???
Do partially NLE places count? If so I'll add:
Chimney Rock (Napa, CA)
Princes Course (Gleneagles)
Arran Course (Turnberry)
Struie (Dornoch)
Is Peacock Gap in NorCal still E?
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I drive by Valley Forge on the way to work and noticed yesterday on a day near 60 degrees that no one was out there and no flags were on the greens. :'(
Have the sold the property for development?
Please don't tell me that my 1 hour and 15 minute commute will now become 1 hour 45 minutes due to a massive increase in the congestion around that area?? (/quote)
Mike-
I read that it was officially closed for good. Too bad. I had not played the course for a long time. I suppose it was an unconscious protest
against the property owner's longstanding push for development,
and the neglect they showed for the course.
Valley Forge, along with Malvern, were really the 2 courses where
I first started learning the game as a 15 year-old in the late 70's.
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Mike
The sale of Valley Forge and the zoning problem was tied up in litigation for years that was finally resolved by the PA Supremes. Joe Logan wrote about the final day last November.
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Tom,
You have one photo in your book, do you have any more?
Ian, George Bahto actually has some of Tom's photos (I believe) in his Evangelist book.
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Mr Cirba informed me that my first course, Bush's, ceased to exist. No idea why or what came after (or how Mike would have ever heard of such a tiny little 9 holer hidden outside Stroudsburg, PA)
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Craig Rokke,
No, I didn't know Garo was a member there. Maybe I can get him to go to Ashville or Florida and have him attempt that kick... Garo was known for his accuracy and consistency wasn't he!
I forgot to add my name to the Desert Inn as a NLE I once played. I have had that unfortunate, but memorable vision of seeing another NLE: Telly Savalas teeing-off there in nothing but a speedo. No golf shoes, no shirt, just a speedo and lots of gold jewelry. (He played about two or three groups in front of me.)
(http://www.tellysavalas.com/images/photo/telly_03.jpg)
When he wasn't acting, Telly played golf (the one constant love of his life) everywhere possible and for as many charity tournaments as he could find. He was truly a man possessed when it came to golf. When there were no tournaments to be played he would gather three friends and spend all day on the golf course. He purchased a house in Palm Desert specifically because he enjoyed the courses there so much. --From the Official Telly Savalas website
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C'mon, Tommy
PhotoShop that picture and show us Telly in his Speedo!
Little known fact about Garo. He and our Gibster were the initial inductees into the Amernian-American Sports Hall of Fame.
"I keek a touchdown!"--Garo Ypremian after his first NFL field goal
"Youch!!!"--Garo Ypremian after attempting a pass in the Super Bowl.
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Mr Cirba informed me that my first course, Bush's, ceased to exist. No idea why or what came after (or how Mike would have ever heard of such a tiny little 9 holer hidden outside Stroudsburg, PA)
Andy,
It should have been obvious to everyone when it wasn't selected to host a major during the past decade. ;D
I must say that this classic in Snydersville is one of the very few in northeastern PA I never got the opportunity to play. Somehow, I think I'm poorer for that.
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Blue Heron Pines East (soon, I guess)
Interestingly the jury may still be out on htis one. BHP-E is "closed" for the winter season (I called there the other day to go play on one of our 55* winter days). Rather curious for a course to soon become "NLE", I must say considering that the AC area only loses about 2-3 weeks for earty golfers during most winters.
Personally, I think the parties that built BHP-E and then proffered it for the site of a USGA APL site only to announce its demise for the building of over 55 housing in an area with plenty of open land - right next to a jetport - blew it somewhere along the line.
Big time.
But, then again I've posted that before and can be quoted by more than a handful of players on here as having expounded on this topic in person.
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Rich,
I was actually thinking of doing that, even went so far as to Google (not Yahoo) "Telly Savalas Speedo."
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when I played BHP in the fall there was little if anything if the shop, and one of my partners got a free pair of golf shoes from the lost and found: he asked about borrowing a pair and they said don't bother returning them
sure sounds like they were closing...
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Just food for thought, according to the Myrtle Beach Golf Association, the following courses have closed recently:
Belle Terre (27)
Burning Ridge West
Calabash Golf Links
Marsh Harbour as already discussed
Ocean Harbour
Ocean Isle
Racoon Run
Robber's Roost
Sea Gull GC (to reopen in 07 with an entirely new layout possibly)
Winyah Bay GC
That's ten of the 116 listed in the area, 9%. This doesn't include those that have been closed for a few years (Gator Hole).
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Brad,
Oops...forgot about Belle Terre and Robbers Roost, the latter which I have fond memories of as my very first round in Myrtle Beach somewhere back around 1980.
Having grown up on squirrly, scruffy publinx in northeastern PA I thought I'd reached Valhalla. (the place, not the course).
BTW, Is Belle Terre done for good, or possibly just changing owners?
I'd hate to see my poster boy of Rees Jones bunkering suddenly be lost to the ages. ;)
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Just food for thought, according to the Myrtle Beach Golf Association, the following courses have closed recently:
Belle Terre (27)
Burning Ridge West
Calabash Golf Links
Marsh Harbour as already discussed
Ocean Harbour
Ocean Isle
Racoon Run
Robber's Roost
Sea Gull GC (to reopen in 07 with an entirely new layout possibly)
Winyah Bay GC
That's ten of the 116 listed in the area, 9%. This doesn't include those that have been closed for a few years (Gator Hole).
I had not heard about Ocean Isle, which would bring me to 13. That seems like a lot...
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Rich,
I was actually thinking of doing that, even went so far as to Google (not Yahoo) "Telly Savalas Speedo."
Just another example of how cool this website is. A guy in GA writes about a golf course closing, and a few hours later a guy in CA Googles "Telly Savalas Speedo", and it makes sense to everyone.
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Flynn's (and Harry Collis') Manor CC in Rockville, MD :(
and a few around DC - Washingtonian, Greencastle, Allview and one other a little farther out on I270. It's name escapes me.
I hope Scott is right about Blue Heron Pines. There are so many unexceptional courses that could be nle'd without a tear.
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From one of the Myrtle Beach vacation marketing websites;
"Designed by Rees Jones, one of America's foremost golf course architects, Belle Terre opened to rave reviews and has gained in popularity since...
...A timeless classic, Belle Terre will continue to challenge golfers for years to come."
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Craig
Germantown CC, Century 21, or whatever other name it had was along I270 north of Washingtonian. Fortunately Trotters Glen will soon meet the same fate as Brook Manor.
Mike
The State of Delaware saved Deerfield from developers just like Exeter Township saved Reading CC.
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Mike
The State of Delaware saved Deerfield from developers just like Exeter Township saved Reading CC.
Rob,
That's good news. It will be interesting to see how both are maintained.
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Just in Atlanta:
Centennial
Metropolitan
Hidden Hills (soon to be)
I guess the odds are higher in a sprawling, real estate-consuming metro area.
AD
I was going to post about having played Centennial, and the weirdness (or at least feeling old to see one of my own be a NLE) but then remembered that Owner Larry Nelson didn't even invite me to grand opening, so I have never played it! I have played Brookstone when I go to Atlanta, but never made it to Centennial.
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Jeff,
Well, hopefully you got to play Wild Wing Avocet and Springhouse at Opryland, those other Larry Nelson designs. ;)
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Just in Atlanta:
Centennial
Metropolitan
Hidden Hills (soon to be)
I guess the odds are higher in a sprawling, real estate-consuming metro area.
AD
I was going to post about having played Centennial, and the weirdness (or at least feeling old to see one of my own be a NLE) but then remembered that Owner Larry Nelson didn't even invite me to grand opening, so I have never played it! I have played Brookstone when I go to Atlanta, but never made it to Centennial.
Hard to believe! Jeff, it was a good golf course that needed to be in a different place. I played it a bunch, and always enjoyed it. Fun and challenging for all levels of golfers. I still have the logo ball in my rack at home. :)
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From one of the Myrtle Beach vacation marketing websites;
"Designed by Rees Jones, one of America's foremost golf course architects, Belle Terre opened to rave reviews and has gained in popularity since...
...A timeless classic, Belle Terre will continue to challenge golfers for years to come."
Maybe we should redefine "timeless", "classic", and "years to come".
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Hard to believe! Jeff, it was a good golf course that needed to be in a different place. I played it a bunch, and always enjoyed it. Fun and challenging for all levels of golfers. I still have the logo ball in my rack at home. :)
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Then you have more than I do in the way of memorabilia and playing memories! The only hole I didn't care for was 6, which had a lay up or not decision. I wish the stream had been at a different angle. But, as they must have said on the Titanic, it doesn't seem to matter much now...
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Add Belle Terre to my list, too. Probably my least favorite of close to 10 M B courses played.
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My list includes:
Eagle Lodge :'( :'((one of my favorites)
Valley Forge GC
Blue Heron Pines East (presumably)
The Desert Inn
Marsh Harbour
Robbers Roost
Ahh, the fond memories of yesterdays...
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I must say that this classic in Snydersville is one of the very few in northeastern PA I never got the opportunity to play. Somehow, I think I'm poorer for that.
Mike, I have no idea how long the course had been there or who was responsible (do you, by any chance?), but wierdly for such a um, unique course it did have some fun holes. Up and down large hills, around substantial landforms. Blind tee shots. A shelf green cut into a hillside a la Dornoch (ok, I won't push that comparison too hard). People rave about Garden City's greens being extensions of the fairway? They never saw Bush's! No bunkers either, not one that I can recall.
Or maybe it was because I was 13 and I could play all day for $2.50. I suspect you might be the only other gca-er here who might have appreciated Bush's.
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Mike, I have no idea how long the course had been there or who was responsible (do you, by any chance?), but wierdly for such a um, unique course it did have some fun holes. Up and down large hills, around substantial landforms. Blind tee shots. A shelf green cut into a hillside a la Dornoch (ok, I won't push that comparison too hard). People rave about Garden City's greens being extensions of the fairway? They never saw Bush's! No bunkers either, not one that I can recall.
Or maybe it was because I was 13 and I could play all day for $2.50. I suspect you might be the only other gca-er here who might have appreciated Bush's.
Andy,
Unfortunately, Bush's closed before I was able to research its history. However, I do believe that it had another name prior, possibly Mo-Nom-O-Nock. Without knowing how old you are, I'm curious if it was always "Bush's" when you played there?
I know what you mean about funky, fun, bunkerless nine-holers at age thirteen. Mine, known as Scott-View Golf Course, had a membership program where I played unlimited golf for the year for $35. We took full advantage of that, probably averaging about .0001 cent per hole played. ;D
And talk about Firm and Fast and lack of irrigation!!! We wouldn't dare fly a ball to the green on any of these courses unless we wanted to play our next shot from 20 yards beyond.
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Flynn's (and Harry Collis') Manor CC in Rockville, MD :(
Going to this technical of a level, add it to my list, too.
I thought of 1/3 of another course, the last 6 holes of the original Shore course at MPCC.
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California:
Imperial (Housing)
Los Alamitos (bulldozed--some land used for Cypress GC)
River Valley (Housing)
Stardust (bulldozed and totally redone; NKA Riverwalk)
Twin Lakes (Housing)
Florida:
Doral-White (Original design bulldozed and redone by Norman)
Hawaii:
Kauai Surf (Now home to the Kiele and Mokihana courses at Kauai Lagoons GC)
Missouri:
Crackerneck (Housing)
North Carolina:
Eagle Crest (Abandoned)
Finley at UNC (bulldozed and totally redone by Tom Fazio)
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Andy,
Unfortunately, Bush's closed before I was able to research its history. However, I do believe that it had another name prior, possibly Mo-Nom-O-Nock. Without knowing how old you are, I'm curious if it was always "Bush's" when you played there?
I know what you mean about funky, fun, bunkerless nine-holers at age thirteen. Mine, known as Scott-View Golf Course, had a membership program where I played unlimited golf for the year for $35. We took full advantage of that, probably averaging about .0001 cent per hole played. ;D
And talk about Firm and Fast and lack of irrigation!!! We wouldn't dare fly a ball to the green on any of these courses unless we wanted to play our next shot from 20 yards beyond.
Mike,
I was there in the late 70s, and Bush's was the only name I ever heard.
I did a quick check online, and it looks like there was a Mo-nom-o-nock, but I suspect it was elsewhere. The address listed is Mountainhome which is in the general area but not where Bush's was.
You may be interested. Came across this picture: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v348/ahughes584/Random%20Golf/Monomonock.jpg)
It was labelled:
Title:Golfing At Monomonock Inn
Pennsylvania (PA), Chrome, unused
Description: Sky High in the Poconos Mountainhome 29, Pa
To muddy the waters a bit, this does look a bit like the 5th hole at Bush's, though there appears to be a pronounced valley in front of the green, and I only remember the green being uphill.
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North Carolina:
Eagle Crest (Abandoned)
Finley at UNC (bulldozed and totally redone by Tom Fazio)
Add 'old' Finley to my list, too.
Allan, Eagle Crest either is or will be housing.
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Boston Corners GC Millerton, NY(Stephen Kay design built/owned by Stanley Peschel)
Blue Heron Pines GC - East Course
Pound Ridge GC
Belleview Park GC Steubenville, OH (Wild 9-hole course that was most likely an estate course built in the 20's - sold to nearby Franciscan University)
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Mike,
I was there in the late 70s, and Bush's was the only name I ever heard.
I did a quick check online, and it looks like there was a Mo-nom-o-nock, but I suspect it was elsewhere. The address listed is Mountainhome which is in the general area but not where Bush's was.
You may be interested. Came across this picture: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v348/ahughes584/Random%20Golf/Monomonock.jpg)
It was labelled:
Title:Golfing At Monomonock Inn
Pennsylvania (PA), Chrome, unused
Description: Sky High in the Poconos Mountainhome 29, Pa
To muddy the waters a bit, this does look a bit like the 5th hole at Bush's, though there appears to be a pronounced valley in front of the green, and I only remember the green being uphill.
Andy,
Unfortunately, I can't see the pic from my work computer. I'll check when I get home.
Similarly, I thought folks here familiar with golf in the Poconos might be interested in the following article that has some really cool old pics of holes like the Binnikill hole at Shawnee, a really startling pic of the famed 77 yard 7th hole at Pocono Manor (with a green appearing much larger than exists today), one of Mon-Om-O-Nock, one of Donald Ross's Buck Hill, etc.
You need to scroll down a few pages to get to the pics.
Unfortunately, coming across the article also reminded me of another sad NLE, which was Wiscassett by Robert White in Mount Pocono.
http://www.libraries.psu.edu/do/digitalbookshelf/29572677/29572677_part_02.pdf
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Richland Country Club, Nashville Tennessee (Ross course and site of 1981 U.S. Women's Open). The club abandoned the inner-city and its interesting old course and moved to the 'burbs for a Nicklaus creation.
Lakewood Country Club, New Orleans, Louisiana (site of Greater New Orleans Open for 26 years). Now proudly serving as a trailer park for FEMA trailers. Before Katrina, there were plans of a renovation. Not sure of the status of those plans now.
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NLEs I've played:
Fountain Springs Country Club, Ashland, PA. The first golf course in the southern coal region (Schuylkill CC would follow 15 years later). This 1907 course was sold to a developer in 2003 after sputtering through a late life. I first played it in 1998 when it was a nine holer with two sets of tees for those playing 18. I recently discovered that it was originally an 18 hole course laid out by a "nationally-known professional" in 1907. This piqued my interest and I need to get to the Schuylkill County Historic Society to see if any records exist.
Alex Findlay is my first guess.
Eagle Lodge: This one going NLE first brought me into the harsh world of golf reality. Why this was ever bulldozed for the ACE(tm) Club is beyond me.
NLEs I regret not getting to:
Valley Forge... didn't even know this was closed until this thread went up. :-[
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Crestwood GC in Marcy, NY is teeterng on the edge ever since ownership changed hands in the 80s...they dont care about the condition of the course...a great track with alot of character and angles. The owner doesnot want to spend any $$ on it, but doesn't want to sell it either...its a shame.
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Valley Forge... didn't even know this was closed until this thread went up. :-[
Happened to stay at the Sheraton across the street Tues. Brought my sticks and everything; front entrance blocked by logs.
Why don't you locals "Sheep Ranch" Valley Forge National Park? Looks like they got plenty of land...
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I love it! "sheep ranch" is now a verb as well as a noun!
Come on everybody! Let's go sheep ranching!
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Valley Forge... didn't even know this was closed until this thread went up. :-[
Happened to stay at the Sheraton across the street Tues. Brought my sticks and everything; front entrance blocked by logs.
Why don't you locals "Sheep Ranch" Valley Forge National Park? Looks like they got plenty of land...
It's magnificent golf land. In fact I have some images of it that I will dig-up later.
However, did you know that Tom Paul led his troops there over a very cold winter, more or less getting their bull pucky together so they could kick ass on the Red Coats the next spring? Unfortunately, George got the credit because TE was too busy routing golf courses at somewhat close by (as the crow fies) Androssan Farm. (personally, I think he was bedding the farmers daughter)
And now you know the rest of the story......
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Jeff,
From the article Robert and I wrote called Missing Links. Here is a piece on St. Andrew's in Toronto. Bill McWilliam, the manager at St. Andrew's East, was the last pro at the club.
The course was quite good, but would not be in the elite in Canadian Golf. Jericho, also on the last page definately is the biggest loss.
York Downs (Alison) is the club that Lorne talks about the most, was that the club you meant.
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew/missing5.jpg)
(http://www3.sympatico.ca/iandrew/missing6.jpg)
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Mike, Andy et al-
There's a post card on ebay picturing a hole on Mo-nom-o-nock in the 50's. Maybe it may shed some light.
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Nothing new to add, but my three are:
Manor CC
Valley Forge GC
Eagle Lodge GC
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Wayne-
By chance was Manor a course near Reading that Flynn may have had a hand in?
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Timber Trails outside Chicago, a fairly unremarkable Robert Bruce Harris design. Its been a while and if I remeber correctly one par 4 was a 90 degree dogleg left at 175 yards which encouraged a heroic shot over someone's backyard to cut the dogleg.
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Craig,
The Manor I refer to (as did Craig Disher earlier) is in Washington, DC. Flynn designed 27 holes there; a full size 18 and a 9 hole short course. The short course was built and the back 9 according to Flynn but the front 9 was completed and redesigned by Harry Collis.
Do you or anyone else know anything about the origin of Meadia Heights GC (1922) in southern Lancaster County? It looks a bit like Flynn, from old aerials at least. It is near Eshelman Mill Road and that family was important in the development of Flynn's Lancaster CC.
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Mark,
Did you know that Flynn designed two golf courses on the Yorktown battlefields? One of the courses was built but the entire large-scale development process imploded. Flynn used the battlements and earthenworks in the design. It was said afterwards that the alternative was high-density development and the earthenworks would have likely been lost. The US Government took over the property and it is has been a National Park ever since with the military features saved.
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Jeff,
Here's the scans of a St. Andrews (Toronto) brochure that I picked up a few years ago. There's no map of the course or scorecard on it though. :(
(http://static.flickr.com/39/86225714_61351bff4f.jpg?v=0)
(http://static.flickr.com/42/86225715_1d86cd04a1.jpg?v=0)
(http://static.flickr.com/43/86225716_c2cd2a2332.jpg?v=0)
(http://static.flickr.com/39/86225717_a1c96c40f4.jpg?v=0)
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Craig,
The Manor I refer to (as did Craig Disher earlier) is in Washington, DC. Flynn designed 27 holes there; a full size 18 and a 9 hole short course. The short course was built and the back 9 according to Flynn but the front 9 was completed and redesigned by Harry Collis.
Do you or anyone else know anything about the origin of Meadia Heights GC (1922) in southern Lancaster County? It looks a bit like Flynn, from old aerials at least. It is near Eshelman Mill Road and that family was important in the development of Flynn's Lancaster CC.
Wayne-I checked the Cornish/Whitten listing for the course I thought you may have been referring to, and they list a "Manor GC/CC" in Sinking Spring as a Findlay design with a Flynn revision.
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For the NorCal guys:
Fairway Glen (SCU Home Course - the Taj Mahal of Bay Area public courses ...)
Oakridge Golf Course - former home of the SCU Bronco Bench Invitational
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Similarly, I thought folks here familiar with golf in the Poconos might be interested in the following article that has some really cool old pics of holes like the Binnikill hole at Shawnee, a really startling pic of the famed 77 yard 7th hole at Pocono Manor (with a green appearing much larger than exists today), one of Mon-Om-O-Nock, one of Donald Ross's Buck Hill, etc.
Wow, good stuff Mike!
Never heard it called the Binnickill Hole before. As I can tell, it looks about the same now as it used to (we used to have Leagues there each year).
Wish the pictures were a little clearer--I'd like to be able to see some detail on some of 'em.
For bonus points, can you identify the building in the center oval?
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Ok...who's up for Sheep Ranching the Valley Forge course on Monday (if we don't get snow on Sunday)?
What's the worst they can do....arrest us? We can tell them that we're part of an archeological golf course society and that we are looking to confirm traits of Alex Findlay's design methodologies....or, use the Tom Paul excuse about the lost dog with diarreah, but that might be tough with golf clubs in tow.
Wayne,
Manor GC near Reading is a Alex Findlay course, as well, with some really cool holes mixed with some blase ones. As Craig mentioned, the "Architects of Golf" list it with some revisions by Flynn. Perhaps that's a misattribution given his work on the one in Maryland?
Also, we should plan to make a day this spring in Lancaster, both at the CC, as well as Meadia Heights. Certainly, from what you mentioned, the timeframe and the lineage seem possible for Flynn.
Finally, if you haven't looked at the link I posted earlier which shows an early pic of the 7th at Pocono Manor, I thought you might be interested. Certainly I'd like to see the original magazine as the pic is a bit dark and blurred. However, it appears possible from the pic, provided it's taken from the tee, that the original hole might have had a tee quite a bit to the left of the present tee, and probably more in line with a hole of about 120 yards to a bigger green than exists today.
Since we know that Flynn built this hole, at least it seems possible to me that it wasn't as much of a "one off" as it might seem from the evidence on the ground today.
Andy,
Unfortunately, my computer is acting up tonight and I can't bring up the magazine article I posted earlier today, or I'd be happy to guess.
The pic of Mo-nom_o-nock you posted is very cool and looks very familiar for some reason. However, the only nine holers i know in that area are Evergreen Park and one other familyowned course (forget the name at the moment) and the course pictured is from neither of those.
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Might as well make an addition or two:
Woodmar CC (Hammond, IN--almost in Chicago), just this year I believe was sold. Was a pretty good track.
Also...the old Purdue North course seemingly was pretty well bulldozed to build Kampen (Dye), if that counts. It certainly was an improvement.
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You know, the more I think about it, the more I think we should Sheep Ranch the Valley Forge course on Monday, irrespective of weather conditions.
What a bunch of pussies we are! Think about what General Washington and his troops had to endure about 230 years ago and here we sit on our widening asses in the comfort of our warm homes thinking that we probably aren't men enough to endure a few hours outside....not awaiting the possible onslaught of the redcoats while suffering from hypothermia, diphtheria, and the pox of the week...but instead probably worried that the greens may be a bit to cold to willingly accept a cold ProV4 struck in leisure.
Who's bringing the flask?
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Mike-
There are certainly several teeing areas on #7. You also have to wonder if that road behind the tees came in after the course, in which case the tee may have been further back, as you suggested. If they don't trim back the tree growth, though, it may be a fully blind 77 yarder in another 5 or 10 years.
That little hole finally convinced me to break down & get a lob wedge.
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This is why I stay in warm, sunny Southern California.
You ALL can freeze your asses off back there all you want. Don't worry, I'll call and tell you how just how warm and sunny it is here and you can tell me just how colorful it is in the dead cold of winter. The only problem is that my Sheep Ranch is probably going to be located in the parking lot of a KIA dealership or something like that....
Gotta go and work on my Art's & Crafts rebuttal piece now, which by the way is a rebuttal to Tom Paul's rebuttal of Tom MacWood's that was further rebuked by Phil Young who is working on a rebuttal of his own. It's amazing what the cold can do to a man.
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Tommy,
It was downright balmy here the last couple days--60 today, in fact. Hit some balls at the range today in anticipation of trip out to said "warm and sunny Southern California."
I purposefully have not looked at the Arts and Crafts thread.
I don't have 4 hours of free time!
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Bear Creek and Canterbury in ATL
Normandie in StL
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Had to bump this back up; I just remembered The Woodyard, a Bob Cupp design near Savannah, GA, that was bulldozed after only 3 years and rebuilt by Greg Norman and is now under the name Savannah Quarters. I haven't seen that course, but I liked The Woodyard a lot. 3 years has to be close to a record for this sort of thing.
Given the sheer number of these things that I seem to have played relative to other posters, I am beginning to worry about being a jinx. :(
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I only total 1 on this list. I grew up in Richland, WA across the street from Sham-Na-Pum golf course. My uncle was the head pro and my father and grandfather were two of the seven original owners before they sold the land to the city of Richland. :'(
It was a very popular muni, short by todays standards (around 6600 yds), but played to a par of 66 making it a challenging short track. They tore it down in 1996 and built a par 72 on the same land, making the new course VERY short and a bit of a joke. It's a shame when economics and development take precedent over value and tradition, but it's commonplace.
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Most missed: The Links Golf Club
Interesting to GCA: Happauge
Others (quickly): Malvern, Valley Forge
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Craig and Mike C,
I think it is an error in Cornish and Whitten, especially since they don't have Flynn's name at all under Manor (formerly Craig Disher CC) in Washington, DC.
Mike, I'd definitely go out with you to both Pocono Manor and to Meadia Heights. I think Craig sent me a photo of Meadia Heights, I can't seem to find it. I'll copy and paste from Google Earth in a bit and give you some food for thought.
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Rob Kimball:
Yeah, I used to play the old Links club all the time, particular one summer. My Dad belonged to it and I played one summer all the time with this other guy originally from Boston who was just a friend of mine. He didn't have to pay greenfees or anything. The club could never have more than 100 members and hardly any of them ever seemed to play except on Sunday because that's when they had a great lunch in the little farmhouse. The pro shop was in the barn and the farmhouse was run by Bert, this great old English or Scottish guy who was a wonderful cook and he had this knack of bringing the members exactly what they wanted to drink without them even having to tell them what they wanted. That always killed me, and them too but they all say he never got it wrong. The hole I remember the best was the reverse redan. My Dad and the guys he played with said it was the best RR they knew of anywhere. Mr Paley and Mr Whitney pretty much ran the place but I guess they let it go in the end because they were getting pretty old and all the members belonged to so many other clubs anyway and in the end no one who belonged was playing it. I really loved it because it was about the most understated club for a good golf course I've ever seen in my life. One time on that hole that came right by the old clubhouse I hooked a ball right through the kitchen window and apparently wiped out a big pot of Bert's leek soup which he told me about later. When I got up to the window Bert just handed me back my ball through the window without saying a word. It was a great little place and I'm sorry to say I probably appreciate it more now than I did then. Isn't that so true sometimes?
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Today, I remembered Southerness in Stockbridge, GA, which gets me to at least 14 NLE courses, I believe.
My new working theory is that I play often at relatively cheap, relatively accessible courses. Often, apparently, they are cheap and accessible because they are about to cease to exist.
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A.G.
I played Southerness once, what happened?
Bill
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Bill,
Just a standard real estate thing, I suppose. It closed a couple of years ago.
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I'm sad to say that it looks like I'll be adding another course to my list of NLE's played, but this one hits much closer to home. As in, my home course, Wake Forest GC. :'(
A front page article here today announced that my home course (of 10 years) looks like it will be sold to developers of high-end homes. We'll be given the option of transferring our membership to a sister club, but it is much farther away, and I recall only being able to hit a handful of drivers there, which would get old. I think it's also more crowded.
For those of you who have joined me in a round there or have played it otherwise, you also might be adding a NLE to your list.
Here's the article, which has the name of the club wrong (it's WFGC, not WFCC):
http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/397786.html
By the way, the letter to the members mentioned in the article hasn't reached me yet, so it's so nice to be in the dark about such things. Not mentioned in the article is the original architect of the course, Gene Hamm, a mid-atlantic regional architect now retired in Raleigh, NC, who did a few of the courses in the Pinehurst area (the Foxfire pair and Pinewild's original course), and a number of the older courses in the Myrtle Beach area.
My favorite quote from the article was the last:
A member on and off since 1973, Dickerson said the course has an unpretentious character that you don't find at the newer courses.
"It's kind of middle class," he said. "The golf course is not for the real prosperous people."
...and this was one of my favorite things about it, the unpretentiousness. We rarely had what today is considered even 'acceptable' conditioning, but you rarely heard any members complain about it.
It was also a great place to take my oldest daughter out for a late afternoon round.
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Scott,
I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, but I am very sorry to hear that. I played there once long ago, so I have to add it to my list of NLE's as well. I got to play with Tommy Byrne, the old Yankee pitcher, who said that he had been involved in the development of the club somehow. He literally came off both feet on every full swing, and just hit the hell out of the ball; a very impressive athlete, even at around age 70 or so at that time. A very enjoyable afternoon.
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Is Peacock Gap in NorCal still E?
Yes, most definitely. Pretty darn fun golf course.
Was Chimney Rock once 18 holes?
And like Mr. Benham, of course I too often frequented Fairway Glen and Oak Ridge back in the day. May they rest in peace.
Interesting, I also played damn near all the SoCal courses Tommy mentioned...
Did any of you NorCals play either Cambrian or Calero? Those go WAY back. But we visited here a lot when I was a kid, and I played both of those also.
Sadly too many golf courses do come and go. :'(
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Would having played the Bob Baldock version of MPCC Shore (e.g. a course that was redesigned) count as having played a NLE? Or does it have to be totally gone (e.g. turned into a mall)
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Evan - I'd say that counts - the course is pretty damn different now, totally different after the 4th hole. Add that to my list also.
TH
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Tom
How about Olympic Ocean Weiskopf versus Olympic Ocean before?
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Evan - heck yeah, that counts too - pretty completely different now. But man if we go down the Olympic Club Ocean road, there are so many different iterations that have occurred over the years, that's a LOT of NLEs!
In any case I sure don't make the rules here - these are just my opinions.
;D
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I figured the same way Tom
I keep a list of the courses Ive played and I had those 2 under NLE and list the new version seperately.
But its hard to know where to draw the line!
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Donald Ross's NLE Ponce de Leon Golf Course in St. Augustine, Florida - closed a couple of years ago. A beautiful layout along the Intracoastal Waterway marshes. It was built in 1916 and if I am not mistaken it may have been Ross's first in Florida.
Also, Baymeadows Golf Course (D. Muirhead/G. Sarazen) in Jacksonville, FL contentiously closed a year or so ago for development (approval of which was vetoed by the Mayor). It is a residential development - now the rear yards of homes and condos face onto a completely unkempt landscape. Not a great course - but I think it may have once hosted the Greater Jacksonville Open prior to it becoming the The Players Championship
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There are numerous NLE in this area (NE Florida) which I haven't played - but if you look closely some remnants remain in their locations. Fort George GC (Donald Ross - north of Jacksonville, FL), Beauclerc Country Club (the old Clubhouse still stands - now home of the Jewish Community Center), and the University Golf Club (now part park/part 9-hole recently opened golf course).
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"There are numerous NLE in this area (NE Florida) which I haven't played - but if you look closely some remnants remain in their locations. Fort George GC (Donald Ross - north of Jacksonville, FL),"
Steve:
Have you ever actually tried to walk any of the old holes of Ross's Fort George G.C? I have and my biggest concern was snakes. ;)
The interesting thing about that old course is the old and truly beautiful clubhouse was just really well restored. I don't know what the plans for it are since there certainly isn't much around (actually Fort George Island is downright spooky ;) ) but the course sure is never coming back. The course had a few different names than just the Fort George club and the name of the clubhouse escapes me right now (something that sounds like the Bohemian Club but that's not it). One thing about that old club is back in the old days it had some members who were some of the richest and most powerful people in the nation.
We also stopped in to see the old Ross Ponce de Leon course with a broker. That was a few years ago and they were still trying to save it. My mother and father used to live in St Augustine just after the end of the war and Ponce de Leon was one of their courses. It's so sad to see the old course going to seed and to know that in a while it'll be houses or whatever and just gone for good.
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Tom,
I've walked around up at Fort George Island a bit, yes - but I haven't ventured too far off the beaten path. It is it a very wild natural landscape, but the golf corridors are clear both on the ground and in looking at aerials. I've heard great things about it from those who played there - but it was already NLE prior to when I moved to this area.
The Ponce is a great shame - it is a wonderful site and could very well have been truly restored and incorporated into a viable development scenario. Seeing it grown over bothers me every time I pass by. There was easily a way, but the will wasn't there for those who purchased the land...
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The course had a few different names than just the Fort George club and the name of the clubhouse escapes me right now (something that sounds like the Bohemian Club but that's not it). One thing about that old club is back in the old days it had some members who were some of the richest and most powerful people in the nation.
Tom
You're probably thinking of the Ribault Club.
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Interesting that Google Earth shows both the Fort George Island Club and the Ponce in green outline when you tell it to show golf courses......
Does anyone know what the deal is with the Grenelefe Resort? I golf-vacationed there two or three years in a row back in 98-00, and I know that the resort was either sold (to someone who was going to totally redo it) or closed. The service and courses were starting to go downhill when we were last there. The West course at point point had Tour Q School (maybe the Senior Tour?) and was decent, with some good elevation change for Florida. The South course was ok (with some fun sandy waste areas near the end), and the East course looked like the jungle was starting to take over.
What is happening there now?
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Ponce is a fairly new NLE (maybe a year and a half). I was surprised to see Fort George still on Google Earth - I understand it has been closed for many years.
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Rich:
That's the one. Bohemian--Ribault, what's the diff? They both sound the same to me. ;)
If you ask me a course or club like Ribault not being able to sustain itself as it didn't was probably a result of Flager competing with himself a few times too many. There's only so many watering spots with golf courses one could create up and down the Florida East Coast back then without creating a glut in supply against demand. Because of his opening it up with the continued construction of the Florida East Coast rail-line and/or the waterway I guess Flager own a swath of the entire Florida East Coast at one time or another.
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We lost a great D. Ross course here in Nashville in 86'- Richland CC Held a US Womens open in 80 I think.
Jack N. was given a tough site to replace her. Barkey can walk her now. I think the old members have regretted it since.