Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Tim Weiman on December 19, 2002, 11:29:14 PM
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How many of you have a habit of looking at land that is NOT a golf course and wondering what might have been if other forms of development (e.g., real estate) had not spoiled the opportunity?
Do you do this? Are there any particular pieces of land that you think might have been something really special?
I’ve done this for a long time. If there is one place that stands out for me it is the Belle Haven section of Greenwich, Connecticut. Venture down to the Belle Haven Yacht Club and you will see land that had the potential to produce some Cypress Point quality holes. It isn’t just the location in the harbor that makes me drool, but also the topography of the area. Something stunning could have been created.
Connecticut isn’t known for great golf courses, but Bell Haven would have been a star, probably better than any of the famous courses in Westchester County, NY., New Jersey or Pennsylvania.
Pure fantasy, unfortunately.
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Tim,
I do that all the time, but more specifically looking at undeveloped land. Here in Michigan, there is a great golf course just waiting to happen almost everywhere you look. The land is so conducive to golf because of the gently rolling terrain and usually good soil conditions. I suppose thats why we're home to so many mom and pop operations.
It's ok to entertain fantasy, especially in this regard!
Joe
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I spent about 100 hours routing and designing up some very interesting land on a portion of the Dupont place in Newtown Square for GMGC (initially with Coore), and later for other potential interests and I still have the fairly "detailed up" routing map.
I really liked the routing because it has some very neat and interesting uses of width on some of the holes as well as some very interesting "melding" and combined uses of holes in various ways.
One hole, I was never too sure about you would have needed to hit the best drive down a fairway and then to have approached the hole by hitting back about 120-130 degrees the other way to a long narrow green below you across a creek (that is if you didn't want to try to drive it right over the creek!).
This is a portion of John Dupont's place (the guy who murdered the wrestler and went to the can!)
But ultimately the builder we were trying to buy the land from got hit with 150 counts of income tax evasion and sold the land to Episcopal school. There are now some new houses on my really tough "split fairway" long par 4 up into the prevailing wind and also on my Tillinghast "reef" par 3!
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I have several topo maps of various properties here in Wisconsin and in Nebraska that I have looked at where I have done routing concepts. Some of the routings are on good quality topos on 2' elevations at 1"=100' or better scale. It is a lot of fun going out and getting intimately familiar with properties and pinpointing features on the land and locating them on the maps. It is a neat exercise in map reading. I found that county land plannng offices and highway departments often have both topos and aerial photos on [dioptic sheets (sp?)] that you can get printed at a blueprint shop that are on those scale sizes as well. I have a basement full of these little fun projects. ::) Unfortunately, the "terraserver" maps are not in high enough topo resolution to do anything too spectacular. But the aerials can be printed in the highest resolution and then you must cut and paste them together. Of course I have a few of these for various properties I like out in the Sand Hills around North Platte and north of Grand Island. :P
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Between East Hampton and Montauk in Long Island is a stretch of genuine linksland. Probably the most legit links terrain in the US. Criminal that it is dotted with all of these houses! Maidstone just touches it, but if we had a time machine, we could have something on a Ballybunnion scale, for sure.
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Tim --
I realized, finally and conclusively, just how golf-mad I've become two weekends ago, when I drove, alone, the 850 miles between the Twin Cities and Chicago and back again. (Had to go retrieve a car whose transmission had died during a Thanksgiving trip to the in-laws'.)
Here it was, December. Cold. A little snow here and there -- but not much. I was listening to Christmas music all the way down -- via all-Christmas-music-all-December stations, first in the Twin Cities, then in Eau Claire, then Madison, then Milwaukee, then Chicago. And for 850 miles, all the way down and all the way back, I don't think I had a single thought that wasn't about all of the wonderful, rolling, wide-open golf-course land within sight of Interstate 94.
It's not the Sand Hills, where one could throw a dart at a map and come up with great land -- but I never drive through western Wisconsin (roughly from Eau Claire west, but east of Eau Claire, too) without "seeing" innumerable unbuilt courses.
Good ones, too.
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I have not walked it, but driven by the land stretching from north of Sand City on Highway One to Moss Landing, here in Monterey County. Most of it was, at one time, the firing range for Fort Ord. The removal of ordnance and related safety problems would make any project outrageously expensive.
Quite honestly, there is room for six courses, all of them on dunes and ocean side property
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Well said, Bob. I drool over that land every trip south.
TH
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I do this all the time. But there is one important caveat: it's not quite so easy to pull it off.
When you look over a beautiful piece of land, all you see are the good holes. Putting eighteen of them together so there are no weak ones is a little bit harder in real life. No property is really more than a 7 or an 8 until someone figures out the perfect routing.
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Dan Kelly
It sounds like a very merry Christmas, aside from that transmission problem. :(
Sometimes when it snows, the wind blows drifts along the road that look like great bunker edges.
I trust you heard me a time or two on that long drive. ;)
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Dan, I used to do my share of trout fishing in the coolees throughout that western Wisconsin area. Every one of those valleys of spring fed streams and meadows are spectacular golf lands. Has anyone heard more about the progress of the "Abbey" project where Pete Dye is donating his time and tallent in trade for indulgences to design a course for the Benedictine Order out there?
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Dan Kelly
It sounds like a very merry Christmas, aside from that transmission problem. :(
Sometimes when it snows, the wind blows drifts along the road that look like great bunker edges.
I trust you heard me a time or two on that long drive. ;)
Der Bingle --
I certainly heard you a time or two (or a dozen!) during that long drive.
You sang: "I'm dreaming of a white Christmas ...."
Which, naturally, made me think about Pebble Beach, and about the 16th at Cypress Point. (Helluva shot, Bing! Helluva shot.)
As for those windblown roadside snowdrifts: I confess that, on at least several occasions, I have urged my mind to see them as dunesland. And my mind has willingly cooperated.
Here's a test for all of you: Can you listen to Johnny Mathis's "It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas" without losing your focus on golf? Karen Carpenter, with her desire-filled logs by the fire? Paul McCartney, singing that nauseating "sim-ply hav-ing a wonderful Christmas time"? The Beach Boys, with their simpering "Santa Claus is Coming to Town"? John Tesh, with his unthinkably bad "Carol of the Bells"? Kenny G., with ... well, words fail me!
I have listened to all of that, with my golf focus unflagging. I'm not proud of it, but it's the truth.
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Tom Doak:
It's about one hundred years too late, but the Belle Haven property is worth checking out if you are in the area and care to dream what might have been.
It's a bit like CP (absent the sand) in that probably only a few holes could have been built on the water. But, the character of the land away from the water might be even more attractive.
Maybe I can get Brad Miller from Greenwich to comment.
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Dick, One of the biggest regrets of my trip to Nebraski is that I didn't get to walk your land S of N Platte. Next time. The Sand Hills geologic formation was a fantasy overload.
Tom Doak, I'd say that the land is 10 but gets reduced to 7's and 8's.
There is some interesting land between Lanark and Ayrshire, Scotland to route but with Prestwick, Troon, etc. to play, who'd go anywhere else?
Bruneau Dunes State Park (with an observatory even) in Idaho, near Mountain Home. Off to one side are giant wind-blown dunes (one is measured near 400 feet) setting astride the Snake River. The land for golf is rolling and sharp and convoluted and of course, sandy and the place is just remote enough to be out there. State park land would insure no houses ever.
Old St. Johns Landfill in Portland, Oregon.
Old McCormack and Baxter superfund site on Willamette River (my favorite golf design fantasy)
Land south of Bandon Dunes that you look at at 17th tee. (But also hope it never gets developed)
Kahuku, Hawaii on the north shore of Oahu. There is already a blessed gem of simple links golf (niner) and there is some terrific links land further west and east. I encourage everybody to play and dream here. 20 bucks for 18!
Land east of Cascade Locks in the Columbia River Gorge. They want to put up a casino but could make a terrific links course and the wind HOWLS. (Just upriver is town of Hood River, Oregon - Sailboarding mecca of the world!)
Northeastern Colorado has some interesting land. Even from the interstate.
Skipanon, near Astoria, oh wait, Peter Jacobsen/Hardy got that fantasy site.
And then there's Yachats, which I won't mention.
And of course, Shackleford's Camp Pendleton.
Sandpines reroute and water and containment mound removal in Florence, Oregon.
Tim, don't get me started like this again. My heart can't take it.
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Never could happen but both Indiana Dunes state park and Warren Dunes state park would be fabulous as would parts of Michiana Shores. Shivas and I both have wondered how Lake Shore Country Club in Glencoe Ill. managedto build a clubhouse and tennis courts on a great stretch of Lake Michigan while locating their course across Sheridan Road with nary a view of the Lake. While I love Shoreacres, Raynor also failed to use the lakefront property.
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Almost everyone posting on this thread should consider scheduling therapy! Please call my office for an appointment. I would recommend Mr Kelly do so without delay. Driving 850 miles without a single thought other than the potential golf holes on both sides of the road is startling evidence of mental pathology. Mr Kelly, you must learn more varietal thought patterns. I would recommend practicing with sexual thoughts for starters.
Dr. Katz
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Almost everyone posting on this thread should consider scheduling therapy! Please call my office for an appointment. I would recommend Mr Kelly do so without delay. Driving 850 miles without a single thought other than the potential golf holes on both sides of the road is startling evidence of mental pathology. Mr Kelly, you must learn more varietal thought patterns. I would recommend practicing with sexual thoughts for starters.
Dr. Katz
Dr. Katz --
But I thought the whole purpose of golf was to replace all of those sexual thoughts!
Oh, I AM confused!
Schedule me for inpatient work immediately. My car is all gassed up and ready -- the transmission purring.
Please tell me I won't have to drive through Wisconsin to get there!
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KATZ!
You're truly a very weird dude! The only person on this website who would even remotely agree with what you just said is Patrick Mucci, and we all know how weird he is!
On second thought that needs to be amended. Of course I would have to include JakaB but if you saw him in therapy, you'd need to find someone really expert in therapy for yourself.
On third thought, there's Rich Goodale.....Oh, never mind...
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I have the same problem as you guys, only worse. I grew up in Indiana in the golf business. When my dad and brothers and I used to travel we always talked about land along the road that looked good for a course. We sold the family course 15 years ago, and all 4 brothers and one sister remain in the golf business in some capacity. Six years a go I bought some wooded land and built a house on it. After years of walking around and studying it I came up with a route plan. This last spring I bought an old Cat D6 dozer and started clearing. I seeded the first fairway in September. My wife probably thinks I'm nuts. I told her that if I die before I'm done she'll have a place to graze horses. I figure that it's a 5 to 10 year project. It's hard work, but is it ever fun! You've got to have a dream. Golf gets in your blood. This website has given me tons of great architectural ideas. Any pictures of great holes or any design ideas would be appreciated.
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Tim, I actually live in Belle Haven, in a home that sits close to the highest point, (built in 1885) there were once LI Sound views which tree grow has long since blocked.
There actually was a 9 holer down in BH which was layed out prior to 1900. There is a score card which is in the Belle Haven Club. This 9 holer was the precurser to Fairfield Golf Club which later became Greenwich Country Club as other activities were added.
As to the land, Belle Haven is a peninsula that juts out into the LI Sound with some nice movement in the land and plenty of coastline that could have been used. The entire area has to be more than 400 acres and would have made a wonderful course. I remember when we bought our home coming from CA, that there where areas along the water that reminded me of the 4-7 at Pebble Beach in a east coast, New England sort of way. I do believe that this site would have had the potential to have been a world top 25 course. The only lacking element would have been the soil makeup, we do get a fair amount of wind, but not as much as the courses out on Long Island.
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Brad Miller:
Thanks for the interesting history lesson. I'm glad to see you don't think I'm completely nuts on this!
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Restoring and making 18 at Belle Haven may be a project worthy of Donald Trump. I am sure he can purchase these 400 acres for $1.5 billion and design with J.Fazio a world class club. He will need to use sixty foot mounds to block the area houses rather than the more preferred thirty footers he used in Briarcliff.
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I have several topo maps of various properties here in Wisconsin and in Nebraska that I have looked at where I have done routing concepts. Some of the routings are on good quality topos on 2' elevations at 1"=100' or better scale. It is a lot of fun going out and getting intimately familiar with properties and pinpointing features on the land and locating them on the maps. It is a neat exercise in map reading. I found that county land plannng offices and highway departments often have both topos and aerial photos on [dioptic sheets (sp?)] that you can get printed at a blueprint shop that are on those scale sizes as well. I have a basement full of these little fun projects. ::) Unfortunately, the "terraserver" maps are not in high enough topo resolution to do anything too spectacular. But the aerials can be printed in the highest resolution and then you must cut and paste them together. Of course I have a few of these for various properties I like out in the Sand Hills around North Platte and north of Grand Island. :P
Hi, i'm from Grand Island, and I have lurked here for about a year. Your post caught my eye just for mentioning Grand Island. Anyways I belive that Nebraska has more than its fair share of great golf courses. It just seems like there is so much great land out here, despite the I-80 corrider being so flat. Up north of town there is some VERY nice rolling terrain. Another reason why your post caught my eye is that I've been on a drive out there and thinking to myself, we could have a world class golf course out there...although the problem is that nobody would play there. It seems like wild horse and the sandhills dont' have that problem despite their remoteness. Also I belive there are a lot of great layouts here, and the only thing really limiting our state is population density. Anyways i'd love to hear insights into the land you mentioned (north platte too). Also the sandhills is a treasure trove of land ideally suited for golf. It's not too hard to find many sites similar to the sandhills or WH here. Quarry Oaks is another course here that is decent, and similar land is not hard to find.
Any thoughts?
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GIslander:
I've driven through Nebraska and almost couldn't believe my eyes. There are tons of golf courses waiting to be built if people can make the economics work.
My Belle Haven example is something totally different. If Brad Miller's home is circa 1885, then the project probably would have needed to get started before the first British Open years before.
Waiting until Morse developed Cypress Point would have been way too late.
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One night about 10 years ago I drank enough with a friend from the UK and we stumbled back to our lodge, passing our car on the way. Out came the clubs and we hit two splendid drives into the Grand Canyon -- from the parking lot. The next morning I couldn't help imagine a string of holes on the rim, a few meandering down a few layers to perched greens set below sandstone cliffs. Too bad the National Park Service won't return my calls.
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OK Slag, You had to go say the "Y" word after many repeated warnings of remaining mum on the subject.
But in truth, these images of Yachats have been seen from by a few of you before, and I think that with a little Tom Doak-touch to it, even he might think the land as special in some regards.
And for the rest of you who might be scurrying about te place trying to get in touch with the State of Oregon, it is in fact environmentally protected. While the land may look flat, it is in fact Old Course-type movement. Right Slag?
Yachats Linksland-Oregon Coast-Heaven
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Yachats/MVC-008F.JPG)
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Yachats/MVC-012F.JPG)
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Yachats/MVC-013F.JPG)
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Yachats/MVC-020F.JPG)
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I almost forgot to add, this is a subject that is really dangerous for me. I tend to lose all track of sight and common sense when I start thinking of every 1/4 acre lot that I happen to pass during the day-- "Hey, that would make a very interesting green complex!"
Way back yonder, many, many light years ago, a few of us orignal Golfweb Architectural Discussion Group junkies got together for a NoCal get-together at Half Moon Bay.
Redanman made the excellent choice of "The Beach House" for our accomodations, which is a very beautiful inn set right on the water in front of it's own little private enclave of dunes. We went for a walk out there, talking about golf and how we could dream up a little mashie-like course there, so rudimentary, yet taking full advantage of this very small little dune line. (This by no means was fit for anything close to resembling Rees Jones-approved Championship Length, but we did in fact have a blast figuring out a neat little layout. Getting a hold of some featheries would have made it that much more fun! I think we even had a few holes that crossed over one another!)
It is an amazing thing how much more I have learned since then, maybe fifty fold. But I still remember this one paticular complex that just sticks with me to this day. I think you can acheive GREAT golf no matter what the setting or size or even the depth. I think this is where the GREATNESS lies, in the NATURE of anything that can yield the roots of the Game.
Here in fact is that piece of neat little dunes land--so small, yet so perfect for our intrepid minds.
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tommy_n/Beach%20House%20Links.JPG)
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So what are we waiting for? Perhaps we might just show up and build it?
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Forrest- I have also seen(in my mind) amazing holes running cliffside and now that I'm in NM. every mesa holds those wonderful scraggily lines. But the reality is I don't recall ever having seen one built (other than oceanside). I assume this is either due to the remoteness of most of these formations and/or the inherent danger of getting the public within a few feet of such dropoffs.
My mind has lately been contemplating why noone seems to use the many mini canyons and arroyos that seem to be sliced thru the rock and meander throughout potential sites providing angular hazzards with similar lines to the mesas and cliffs.
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There are some good canyon courses in the Las Vegas area. One we were working on, in Henderson, has 80-foot cliffs along four holes. Unfortunately the project is on hold at the moment.
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Thanks for the pictures Tommy. Pure dreamland. Perhaps instead of calling it a golf course we can call it a land reclamation project? Rid it of the invasive German Seegrass and we'd be eco heroes!