Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Daryl "Turboe" Boe on December 04, 2002, 08:48:17 AM
-
Let the conjecture, discussion, and argueing begin. Golf Digest has just released the new ratings for Best New Courses in 2002.
www.golfdigest.com/courses/bestnew/index.ssf?/courses/bestnew/gd200301bestnew.ht
ml
I will post seperately more information.
-
Here is the text...
By Ron Whitten
Photographs by Stephen Szurlej
Golf Digest
Having never done it, we can't be sure that there's more than one way to skin a cat, but we can state that there's more than one way to build a golf course. Golf Digest's survey of America's Best New Courses of 2002 proves that. Rustic Canyon Golf Course, voted Best New Affordable Public Course (maximum green fee of $50 or less), is a minimalist design, sitting lightly upon its barren Southern California locale. In contrast, Tullymore Golf Club, America's Best New Upscale Public Course (green fee in excess of $50), is extreme architecture, with features recessed deep into the Michigan terrain.
The flip side is America's Best New Private Course, The Golf Club at Briar's Creek, where every hole is elevated above marshland outside Charleston, S.C. Finally, Bigwin Island Golf Club in Ontario, 2002's Best New Canadian Course, is a combination of all three styles -- some holes riding the contours of granite, others blasted from wooded hillsides and a few perched on man-made mounds. That four such diverse courses win in the same year can only mean that the prevailing trend in course design these days is variety, and plenty of it.
Best New Upscale Public
* Walking anytime
1. Tullymore G.C. Stanwood, Mich. 7,148 yards, par 72, $60-$70.
Jim Engh, designer. 800-972-4837. www.tullymoregolf.com
2. Branton Woods G.C.* Hopewell Junction, N.Y. 7,100 yards, par 72, $70-$95. Eric Bergstol. 845-223-1600. www.brantonwoodsgolf.com
3. The Ranch G.C.* Southwick, Mass. 7,174 yards, par 72, $100.
Damian Pascuzzo. 413-569-9333. www.theranchgolfclub.com
4. Belterra G.C.* Florence, Ind. 6,910 yards, par 71, $75-$90.
Tom Fazio.800-594-5833. www.belterracasino.com
5. Shell Landing G.C. Gautier, Miss. 6,978 yards, par 72, $60-$89.
Davis Love III. 228-497-5683. www.shelllanding.com
6. Pine Dunes Resort & G.C.* Frankston, Tex. 7,117 yards, par 72, $45-$60. Jay Morrish and Carter Morrish. 903-876-4336.
7. The Glen C.* Glenview, Ill. 7,149 yards, par 72, $110-$135.
Tom Fazio. 847-724-7272. www.theglenclub.com
8. The Oconee at Reynolds Plantation* Greensboro, Ga. 7,029 yards, par 72, $115-$250. Rees Jones. 706-467-1200. www.reynoldsplantation.com
9. Bay Creek G.C. Cape Charles, Va. 7,204 yards, par 72, $35-$65.
Arnold Palmer, Ed Seay and Vicki Martz. 757-331-9000.
10. Legends C.* Prior Lake, Minn. 6,906 yards, par 72, $70.
Garrett Gill and Paul Miller. 952-226-4777. www.legendsgc.com
Best New Affordable Public
* Walking anytime
1. Rustic Canyon G. Cse.* Moorpark, Calif. 6,906 yards, par 72, $30-$45.
Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner and Geoff Shackelford, designers. 805-530-0221.
2. Devil's Thumb G.C.* Delta, Colo. 7,176 yards, par 72, $28-$30.
Rick Phelps. 970-874-6262. www.deltagolf.org
3. Hunting Hawk G.C.* Glen Allen, Va. 6,832 yards, par 72, $42-$50.
Bill Love. 804-749-1900. www.huntinghawkgolf.com
4. Wasioto Winds G. Cse. Pineville, Ky. 7,037 yards, par 72, $25-$30.
Michael Hurdzan and Dana Fry. 800-814-8002. www.kystateparks.com
5. The G.C. at Fleming Island Orange Park, Fla. 6,801 yards, par 71, $40-$50. Bobby Weed. 904-269-1440. www.flemingislandgolf.com
6. Grande G.C.* Jackson, Mich. 7,156 yards, par 72, $42-$50.
Ray Hearn. 866-472-6333. www.grandegolfclub.com
7. Iron Horse G.C. Ashland, Neb. 6,500 yards, par 71, $39-$49.
Gene Bates. 402-944-9800. www.golfironhorse.com
8. The Summit G.C.* Cannon Falls, Minn. 7,022 yards, par 72, $28-$32.
William Whitworth, Marty Benson Jr. and Greg Wencl. 507-263-4648.
www.summitgolfclub.com
9. Cherry Blossom G. & C.C. Georgetown, Ky. 6,812 yards, par 72, $35-$40. Clyde Johnston. 502-570-9849. www.cherryblossomrealty.com
10. Prairie Highlands G. Cse.* Olathe, Kan. 7,066 yards, par 72, $42-$50.
Craig Schreiner. 913-856-7235. www.prairiehighlands.com
Best New Private
* Walking anytime
1. The G.C. at Briar's Creek* Johns Island, S.C. 7,117 yards, par 72.
Rees Jones, designer. Initiation fee: $110,000. www.briarscreek.com
2. Shark's Tooth G.C.* Lake Powell, Fla. 7,204 yards, par 72.
Greg Norman. Fee: $36,000 (property owners) www.wildheron.com
3. The Club at Carlton Woods* The Woodlands, Tex. 7,385 yards, par 72.
Jack Nicklaus. Fee: $95,000.
4. Briggs Ranch G.C.* San Antonio. 7,206 yards, par 72.
Tom Fazio. Fee: $60,000.
5. Mayacama G.C.* Santa Rosa, Calif. 6,761 yards, par 72.
Jack Nicklaus. Fee: $250,000. www.mayacama.com
6. Calusa Pines G.C.* Naples, Fla.7,215 yards par 72.
Michael Hurdzan and Dana Fry. Fee: Not available.
7. Sage Valley G.C.* Graniteville, S.C. 7,331 yards, par 72.
Tom Fazio. Fee: Not available.
8. The International (The Oaks Cse.)* Bolton, Mass. 6,944 yards, par 72. Tom Fazio. Fee: $60,000. www.theinternational.com
9. TPC at River's Bend* Maineville, Ohio. 7,196 yards, par 72.
Arnold Palmer, Ed Seay, Harrison Minchew. Fee: $29,000 (property owners).
www.tpcriversbend.com
10. Old Chatham G.C.* Durham, N.C. 7,066 yards, par 72.
Rees Jones. Fee: $65,000.
Best New Canadian
*Walking anytime
1. Bigwin Island G.C.* Lake of Bays, Ontario. 7,166 yards, par 72, $155-$175 (U.S.). Doug Carrick, designer. 705-635-2582. www.bigwinisland.com
2. Angus Glen G.C. (The North Cse.)* Markham, Ontario. 7,314 yards, par 72, $130-$189. Doug Carrick and Jay Morrish. 905-887-5157. www.angusglen.com
3. Le Maître de Mont-Tremblant Saint Jovite, Quebec. 7,010 yards, par 72 (private). Graham Cooke, Darrell Huxham, Gene Bates and Fred Couples. www.clublink.ca
-
Thanks for posting this, Turboe. I knew it was coming out any day now...
My comments are thus:
1. HOORAY for Rustic Canyon getting best new affordable! Now will they pull a Pasatiempo on us and raise the fees? Hell, if that means making some money available to put in the trees Geoff wanted hiding the driving range on 18, and making certain other improvements that allow it to be kept firm and fast, then I say bump it to $50. Given the ridiculous prices of CA golf, anything less than $100 there remains a bargain. But one way or the other, this is great news for Rustic and great news for all of us, really. Congrats to Gil and Geoff and all those involved in bringing us that wonderful course! Like Dan King once said, I never thought I'd ever be envious of the SoCals but Rustic makes me so!
2. Interesting to me that Mayacama "only" got #5 best new private. That is one hell of a great course. I wonder how many GD raters made it out there?? I know I did and I absolutely loved it, gave it very high numbers indeed. I guess that's still a very high number but I was guessing it would go even higher than this.
3. Sadly, these are the only two on those nominated for best new that I got to that made the final rankings... The ommission of Applebrook GC is curious to me... again I can only guess not enough raters made it out there. I gave that course ratings as high if not higher than Mayacama....
TH
-
Congrats to Rustic Canyon!
Also to the little known (except for several mentions here) Pine Dunes in Texas.
I have to admit that I was surprised to have heard of so few of the winners, especially in the upscale public category.
The Bridge was conspicuously absent from the private category. Also Hidden Creek and Bull's Bay.
-
I'm really not sure if Hidden Creek was eligible this year...perhaps next.
One tidbit...I had heard a fellow down at Kiawah go to great lengths to tell his dinner companions that "Sage Valley" would be a shoo-in for best new private, comparing it to ANGC in terms of greatness and elegance and claiming it was clearly the best course in South Carolina. He was talking about it hosting the US Open, etc., and seemed to be offended when anyone offered the least bit of skepticism.
I thus find it sort of interesting that it got beat by another course in the same state!
-
Turboe,
It was enjoyable to see two N.East courses in the mix, even if they fall in the upscale category. They need the marketing help as many golfers already are complaining about the fees at both these places.
I am really happy to see that Devil's Thumb came in as high as it did. The course did not reach its projected revenues due mainly to the same pox that has hit the industry in general and the problems Co. has had with fires.
Putting it at #2, affordable public, just may be the marketing help this place needs. Their website shows a very bold and beautiful place.
-
Mike,
Hidden Creek opened in May, I believe. Isn't the cutoff end of June?
-
Friar's must be on Next year's list?
-
Can't anyone think of a decent name for a golf course these days? Most of those are generic, silly or banal!
-
Guest - Friar's Head was not on the nominated list this year.
TH
-
Very pleased to see Branton Woods' showing. Bergstol had done a lot of construction for Fazio and has just recently started doing his own designs. He has a tremendous amount of potential. Worth a play, for sure, if you are in the NY area next summer.
Have heard many good things about Calusa. Has anybody out there actually played it?
-
Did any of y'all get a chance to play Briar's Creek when you were here in the Lowcountry for GolfWeek's Rater's Cup? It's right across the river from Kiawah but I haven't had a chance to play it yet (although the PR person for it keeps promising...).
-
Thanks Turboe.
I am confused about the timeline, #2 and #3 on the Canadian list have been open for two years.
Also surprised to see Mayacama not fair higher, and the absence of the Bear's Club.
Could someone (read Tom H) please explain the timeframe?
-
Tom Huckaby;
Then I assume that Hidden Creek & Applebrook were on the list for consideration?
-
Hidden Creek was not.
-
Mike:
Please insert the caveat that I am a newbie this year to all this, and I may not have the most fully-updated list. That being said, the list of nominated courses for Best New did not include Friar's Head nor Hidden Creek, but did include Applebrook.
TH
-
Ben:
Again, I am a pretty raw newbie to this. My take on the timeframe would only be guessing. Perhaps a long-term panelist will be able to answer this. I honestly don't know the exact criteria.
TH
-
Other notes:
A woman, Vicki Martz, is listed as co-designer of Palmer/Seay's Bay Creek in Virginia. Good for her.
A new feature was added, the initiation fees for the private clubs (except Sage Valley, no surprise there. Augusta members belong there). Surprised that the clubs allowed publication of their initiation fees.
-
VERY interesting writeups of the varied design styles of each of the category winners at the following link;
http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/bestnew/index.ssf?/courses/bestnew/gd200301bestnew2.html
-
Congrats to Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner and Geoff Schakelford and all those associated with Rustic Canyon. The effort certainly merits recognition and is a MUST play for anyone wanting to understand what public golf needs today.
Congrats also to Rick Phelps on Devil's Thumb. I played the course with Rick this past summer and if a final solution can be implemented regarding turf conditions on a few of the holes at the course I am confident the reputation of Devil's Thumb will only grow and grow. The split fairway #13 is one of the best of its kind you can play anywhere! If you venture to Grand Junction and only stop at Redlands Mesa you are certainly missing out because Delta, where Devil's Thumb is located, is only 45 minutes south and worth seeing indeed!
But --
What happened to the following courses ...
Private -
The Kingsley Club (MI) ????? / *A major league omission!
The Bridge (NY)??? / A superb Rees Jones effort
The Mirabel Club (AZ) ? / First rate effort by TF
Upscale -
The GC at Bear Dance (CO) ?
Stonewall GC at Lake Manassas (VA) ?
Twisted Dune (NJ) ?
Las Vegas Paiute Resort / Wolf Course (NV) ?
Let the debate begin ...
-
Matt:
Re ommisions, well... this is never gonna exactly agree with anyone's take. But would each of those you list as an ommission displace one that's on there? You've likely seen the most number of these courses of anyone... care to comment specifically on which ones would be replaced?
You have the years of experience in this... isn't it possible that not enough raters got to a course, and that might be the reason for some of your ommissions? Again, newbie here, just guessing re that.
TH
-
I guess last year's explanation that The Kingsley Club wasn't on the ballot is sort of moot at this point.
I've only seen it from pics but those who've been there have absolutely RAVED about it. I would have to imagine that most believed it was a strong candidate for Best New Private and to not see it on the top 10 is sort of perplexing.
I think Lou Duran made it over to Briar's Creek. I'd be curious to hear his take on it.
From their website, a couple photos;
(http://www.netcaddy.com/sites/A_Master/DynamicHTML/getImage.asp?Id=36090&U=1)
(http://www.netcaddy.com/sites/A_Master/DynamicHTML/getImage.asp?Id=36091&U=1)
(http://www.netcaddy.com/sites/A_Master/DynamicHTML/getImage.asp?Id=36084&U=1)
-
Tom:
The issues of rating would take far more time than I can write now. However, someone has to explain to me if "x" number visit one course and "x" number visit an entirely different course how does one have some overlap between then two in order to properly compare?
Also, some areas of the country get far more rating visits which may assist those particular courses.
To be totally candid -- The Kingsley Club should have been considered in '01 when it in fact REALLY opened. Bumping it to the next year was not the right thing to do. The effort by Mike DeVries is stellar -- I mine no words or feelings on that. Ask anyone of any type of competence and they will say likewise.
I played four of the private clubs listed and while they are all very good it is without question to me that none of them have the capability or greatness that The Kingsley Club provides.
As far as the others are concerned they are all first rate efforts. I just finished playing The Mirabel Club in Scottsdale and I salute TF in putting forward a dynamic layout that is far from the pro forma layouts many have rightly decried here on GCA.
The Bridge is one design I am also shocked did not even finish in the top ten. Some on GCA thought I was crazy when I said it's among my five best selections on Long Island. I have not played Briar's Creek, but many have complimented the course. How does Rees get placement for two of his designs, but The Bridge doesn't merit any mention?
Among the upscale courses selected I played four of the eventual selections and while each of them is very good I can easily make a strong case for the others that I believe are more deserving. On the public side I am a big fan of Twisted Dune -- it's Jersey's best public course and I believe many here on GCA would concur.
Bear Dance in Colorado and The Wolf at Pauite Resort are also first rate efforts. Bear Dance is arguably the finest Colorado public course I've played and I've had the opportunity to play a healthy number of the other major contenders. The Wolf is a delicious Pete Dye effort that is easily among the top five courses in the Silver State and is clearly one of his better designs in recent times.
Tom, there is no science in ratings. Opinions are subjective clearly. I am well aware of that. But, I have serious issues with individual rating assessments from people who quite likely really do not traverse our great country to make the kind of cross comparisons that are absolutely critical for the kind of results that should be forthcoming.
-
Congrats to Rustic Canyon, a well deserved honor.
Also Congrats to Rick Phelps, a truly nice guy making good. I will have to get out more to see this course.
Some interesting new names in the lists, anybody played these courses?
-
Its always a surprise to see these rankings and hard to argue since many of the courses we haven't played. Since the rating are done regionally, unless you travel quite a bit you probably didn't see or even heard of some of these golf courses.
To answer someones question, occasionaly a course will pull its name off the list and ask to be included in next years ballots. The reason is it may have a problem within its opening that needs to be solved. Example, I went to Reno this year to evaluate a new course and they had lost their greens so they called GD and they where moved to next years list.
-
I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd be interested to look at the "complete history" of these GD rankings, at http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/bestnew/index.ssf?/courses/bestnew/the_comp_oiukffgc.html
-
Everyone is on such good behavior ::)
I will try(implies can't) to do the same by saying two things I thought.
1. After hearing about the conditions at Devil's Thumb (not that that matters) I am surprised. WTG GD.
2.The Glen Club? The Glen Club? The Glen Club?
-
I suggest a new top 10 list. The top 10 courses that fell through the cracks in the past 5 years... a do-over list! 8)
I think the narrative on RC has it quite well pegged. The narrative on Tullymore injects one interesting unresolved question or observation on construction technique related to everything built like a bathtub. With that looming question unanswered definitively, I find it hard to believe they rated it #1 in its category given so many others to choose from. Was the question tactfully unanswered, or don't they actually know how it drains?
I see Whitten has a homeland Nebraska course thrown in, Iron Horse, which is near Quarry Oaks, that being another Nebraska concession some years ago. I'll make every effort to check it out next time I pass through there in the spring.
PS: I am very happy for the recognition of Rick Phelps work at Devil's Thumb!
-
Matt:
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. It all makes great sense to me. Of course no rating system is ever going to be "perfect" although I suppose the suggestion to have a paid cadre of raters travelling around seeing every course is the best answer.. but obviously that's not going to happen (if it does, where do I sign up?) so each magazine does the best it can.
Regarding:
But, I have serious issues with individual rating assessments from people who quite likely really do not traverse our great country to make the kind of cross comparisons that are absolutely critical for the kind of results that should be forthcoming.
Yes, you've stated that many times on here. The problem is indeed that so few people have the time, resources, etc. to allow for this. Thus as I say, the magazines do the best they can.
As for individual ommissions, such shall always exist. I remain surprised that Applebrook didn't make the top 10 new private. But heck, top 10 out of the many nominated is always going to be a tough call... and there remain many reasons why this may occur.
TH
-
I was happy to see Jim Engh complete his "Career Grand Slam" if you will. Adding BNU to his BNP & BNA from the past. Although I guess to be technical one should also win BN Canadian to really have the GS.
Obviously Jim has made a nice name for himself building affordable public tracks on moderate (note I did not say low) bugets, and coming in exactly on buget. After the big splash of Sanctuary (which is about as private and exclusive as you can get) he has been more known for his affordable tracks, Redlands, and Hawktree in North Dakota (which I think would have won instead of getting 2nd a couple years ago had more people seen it).
You dont automatically think of Jim Engh when you think of Huge Upscale Public Facilities. In fact I usually think of him as being able to make a great and dramatic golf course without always having the bugets that the TF, Jack, or Rees have to work with. Isnt it somewhat fitting then that his winning the Upscale category comes on a course with greens fees of $60-70 which depending on the part of the country isnt that "Upscale" compared to many on there with +$100 greensfees.
I also wasnt sure what to make of the drainage comments, unless someone was trying to make a toung in cheek comment about how you legally drain everything with wetlands all around. I can only say that when I played Tullymore in June, I found the playing conditions to be firm, moderatly fast, and no signs of any drainage issues. It was interesting that they talked about the symmetry of the mounding, when I tend to not feel that anything stood out to me at Tullymore regarding symmetrical mounding. Yes I have noticed that about Jim Engh's bunkering if you stand right above it and look down, but I find that the grassy faces and contouring that he uses actually make the bunkers nearly dissapear from view quite a bit of the time entirely. You know they are there, but you dont get the dramatic look of the flashed sand faces up in the air.
-
In fact as a follow up to my previous post I did a quick check of the link on the top of this page of past results. Since they changed to the current format in 1996 with Best New Affordable Public, Best New Upscale Public, and Best New Private in the US. My quick scan would lead me to believe that Jim Engh is the only one to perform this feat. Call it a "Career Grand Slam" or "Hitting for the Cycle" for US categories.
I was surprised that Tom Fazio had not done it. It was certainly not the category that I expected that has eluded TF. Who would have guessed that it was the Upscale category that had eluded him. In fact Tom almost pulled off the "Real Grand Slam" in 1996 when he captured both the BNA and BNP in the same year. But alas the same one that has eluded him since then was his downfall that year.
If you globalists (or Canadians) want to make an issue about it not being a true Grand Slam without the Best New Canadian being a criteria. I would pose this tidbit, Jack Nicklaus has won the Best New Canadian once already, the only one of the so called "Big Name" US architects. If we indeed consider it like "Hitting for the Cycle", then I would say that Jack has already gotten the "Triple" out of the way and all he has left are the more conventional ones.
-
Once again, how are the CANADIAN courses rated? No I do not have an inferiority complex, I just want an answer.
I know that there are some Canadian GD panelists, but I wonder what the cross-section is like. I also scratch my head when some courses make the top 3 that seem bewildering.
Lastly, I wonder what the numbers were that saw Timberwolf when it opened. If GD panelists do not travel other than regionally, how the hell did they find this course in Sudbury?
Is there a limit to how many votes are needed? Is that different for Canadian to American courses? Why was there a shift from best Canadian to Best Public Canadian in 1994?
-
I'm really happy for Rick Phelps (Devils Thumb). Although I've yet to make it to the Western slope, I've spoken with Rick about the course and he's rightly proud of it. As I understand it, he was pretty aggressive with his design of this public course in way out of the way Delta, CO and it's good to see his work recognized. And the fact that this course is so highly ranked despite the VERY remote location and conditioning issues Matt Ward mentions is very good indeed.
All The Best,
-
Turboe,
I'm very surprised that Applebrook didn't make it.
Is the rating process quantitative or qualitative ?
-
Jim,
Matt Ward or others may know more, but as I understand it Devils Thumb has had some significant fairway soil problems on some holes since opening. Some kind of "leaching" problem, was it?
All The Best,
-
If Applebrook was eligible and it didn't make the list, the list is a sham.
-
Doug,
Thanks. I just went back to amend my post asking aclayman what conditions were and sent it off into cyberspace!
I was surprised to hear of any problems as I've read that those playing it are all satisfied and extremely thankful to have a course of this caliber, especially a muni, in their town.
-
Applebrook was on the list of courses nominated for Best New that I received, and yes, it does surprise me it didn't make the top 10. That being said, many explanations for this remain possible. Pat - the rankings are certainly not quantitative, although I do believe that a certain number of raters are required to see a course for it to make any rankings. Again, I don't know the specifics re this but this is a possible explanation re Applebrook. It's also very possible it came in at a fighting #11!
TH
-
As always, I am sure much debate will ensue over the choices made by GD.
I did manage to play Briars Creek in September. The course is highlighted by some stunning finishing holes, two very good starting holes and some good holes in between.
Whether that is enough to qualify in my mind as the Best Private of 2002 is of some question. Although this is a very nice golf course, I wonder whether there isn't something better out there?
-
Doug:
You are 100% on the mark regarding leaching at Devil's Thumb. The par-5 5th hole I believe was really a major problem because of nearby salt coming onto the site off property. As a result the facility had overwatered the affected fairway to a high degree in order to mitigate the situation. I would hope if any one has played the course since my visit in late May that they can comment on what's happening.
I had the pleasure in playing the course this past summer with Rick and depite the conditioning issue on a few holes on that portion of the property the holes have significant strategic interest.
The issue, beyond the leaching, for Devil's Thumb will be its relative remoteness. Even from Grand Junction you still have to trek about 45-60 minutes to get to Delta.
I really like the course and as I said earlier, the 13th hole is a superb split fairway hole -- one of the very best of its kind that I have ever played. Rick has designed a course where driving the ball to the proper spot is richly rewarded. You have playing angles that make you think with each tee shot. There's also plenty to gain for the long hitter if you can properly harness it.
I just hope some sort of long term remedial plan is put forward regarding the leaching because the layout clealy has plenty of strategic holes of interest and with some attention to course grooming has the possibility in being in the same league as Rustic Canyon and Wild Horse for its design quality and affordability.
One last thought -- Rick has developed a routing plan that takes you to all parts of the property. If you happen to be in the south central or south west portion of Colorado -- Devil's Thumb is certainly worth the time.
-
Tom Huckaby,
Shouldn't the magazine indicate the golf courses that were considered that didn't meet the 25 reviews required to qualify for the finals ?
That additional information would have been most helpful.
-
Pat - I'd imagine that information would be interesting to the participants here... but do you really think the general circulation readers care about that?
I have no problem not including that, none whatsoever.
I also have no problem with any magazine keeping their rating criteria and methods private.
TH
-
Tom Huckaby,
I do think it would be beneficial to the readers.
First, if Applebrook would have been included had it met the minimum rater requirement, think of the benefit to the members of Applebrook and potential members.
Second, it helps the credibility of the magazine and the ratings. Imagine the confusion created in the mind of a golfer
who has played another course that was rated, but isn't as good a golf course as Applebrook, which wasn't included in the rating process due to not meeting the minimum criteria.
The golfer doesn't know this, so they think, either the ratings are bogus, or the golfer doesn't understand architecture, golf courses and ratings.
Nothing good happens from a material lack of material information.
-
Patrick:
I still think we are talking about a tiny minority of the golf population here... even if we add up the Applebrook members, those who care about the course, all the regulars here, that's still got to be less than 1% of the readers of Golf Digest. This group needs to be catered to? And if so, where do you draw the line? Should Golf Digest publish all the votes, all the courses nominated, the number of visits? Again, I'm sure everyone here would love to see that... but to the rest of the golf world, that makes for some boring pages in the magazine or on the web site. It might educate, but is education what that magazine is for? Do we really expect them to be that altruistic?
One can't forget this is a commercial operation... I am likely getting WAY in over my head on this, but I still have no problem with how GD - or any of the other magazines doing ratings - publishes their rankings. It's ultimately their decision what's gonna sell magazines....
TH
-
I have to agree with Patrick here.
Based on everything I've heard from others who've played Kingsley Club, for instance, it is inconceivable to me that it woudn't be included in the Top 10.
To not be listed puts a big question mark out there...same with Applebrook. The inference otherwise is that ALL nominated courses have been seen, which casts some doubt on the validity of the results.
No system is perfect, of course, but some additional information would help the readership of GD to better understand that.
www.kingsleyclub.com
-
Patrick's question echo's mine: Did The Bridge or The Kingsley Club get enough raters? I think it would be good to know if any course didn't.
Look at all those Fazio courses - GD's panelists must be biased? ;D
Since the Dye course in Avalon Lakes, Ohio was included & won a best new upscale following a remodel, shouldn't Merion & Riviera be included in best new privates? Even in their possibly lessened states, surely they're better than at least a few of the others. :)
Congratulations to the gang at Rustic. I say, raise the fee to $51 next year & go for best new upscale. :) :)
-
Mike - do you see any validity to what I say above? Yes, you care, I care, Patrick cares... but outside of the regulars here, who really cares how many courses are visited and how many aren't? It seems obvious to you, to me, to Patrick that courses like Kingsley and Applebrook should have made the list, and we want to know why they didn't... but do people really care outside this group and the members of those clubs?
The idea here is to sell magazines and that can't be forgotten. Oh, I know how important these rankings become commercially on so many levels... but in the end, it's up to the magazine to do what they want.
I really don't see the problem here.
TH
-
Mr. Huckaby
If the idea is to sell magazines, why doesn't GD just rank the courses by the amount of advertising revenue they commit to spend in the magazine and do away with all the costs and logistical hassles associated with their stable of superfluous "raters?'
-
TH -
Can't hurt to try to educate people, even if it's just a little.
Take myself, for instance. I had been playing golf for about two years & reading GD & Golf, etc., for much of that before I finally decided to try to learn why PV always seemed to come out no. 1.
Now, just a few short years later, I know almost as much as the 43rd ranked poster on GCA can know. :)
Seriously, I don't see the downside to simply pointing out to people that some courses might merit more attention.
-
ForkaB - love the name. If we take this to its logical conclusion, then what the hell, they could indeed do their rankings that way. But logical conclusions rarely occur on this earth, so the rankings are what they are. ;)
George - hey, I'm with you guys, it would be educational... and in the past in the writeups the magazines do mention those courses which barely missed and say why that's so. GD apparently didn't this time, and that's our loss... In the end, it would be tough to list some courses that missed and not ALL courses that missed, just to avoid favoritism... thus my take that the magazine would be filled with several pages of boring stats. There is likely some happy medium here, and perhaps GD should have attempted to find it. Hell, I too am interested as to why certain courses missed out, as I say...
TH
-
Hey Ben. If you hear anything on the Canadian methodology, let me know. Not too important, but would be nice to know. Two things I find interesting from Canadian perspective. 1.- Architect Doug Carrick has won last 3 years in a row - congratulations to him and his team - I think Ian is there.
2.- strange how they only list 3 courses in Canada. I realize the majority of the readers are south of the 49th parallel, but what's the point in listing only 3? Not excatly compelling for a Canuck to go out and pick up off the mag. rack.
Ben, have you played Bigwin? Everyone who has played it raves about it. Ian, what happened to Ospey?
-
23 different award winners. At least you can say G D isn't closed minded, or only cares for certain styles of architecture.
Regrettably, I've played just one course on the list: Rustic Canyon. Glad to see it faired well! Applebrook deserved better, though. Congratulations to J. Engh.
First time I've seen initiation fees mentioned for best new privates.
-
Henry,
Ian is with Carrick yes, and Osprey is as deserving or more than Angus Glen, which is also by them.
One correction though, Grahame Cooke won last year (Fox Harb'r) and McBroom (Timberwolf) the year before.
As for Bigwin, I have been and found it absolutely stunning visually. The sixth hole, which the picture you always see is quite beautiful and I am sure will be up there with Greywolf for the front of the Carrick media kit. ;)
The other nice thing at Bigwin is the history of the lodge, quite a setting.
I do have a photo tour of Bigwin, the day was a little cloudy, but you will get a sense from the pictures
Bigwin (http://www.golftravelinformation.com/bigwin/vbig/)
Best,
Ben
-
Turboe,
It was enjoyable to see two N.East courses in the mix, even if they fall in the upscale category. They need the marketing help as many golfers already are complaining about the fees at both these places.
Jim Kennedy or others,
Have you played either The Ranch or Branton Woods, and what did you think ?
-
Thanks for the picture links to the holes at Bigwin, Ben.
In looking at them, does anyone else see a very strong monotony in the greensites. Nearly all of them seem to be front left angling to back right, with bunkers covering the front right to back right faces of the elevated greens. I think there are at least 10 greens that look alike.
-
Henrye,
Both Osprey courses were in last year.
-
Thanks Ben & Ian. I too prefer Osprey to Angus Glen, and at Angus, I prefer the south to the north, although to be fair I've only played the north once.
I'm curious, from an architect's perspective, is the Golf Digest rating the most prestigious? What others would be considered important? In Canada, I assume it's Score Magazine, but what about in other countries?
Well, I'm reluctantly being dragged off to Jacksonville in a few hours to play that TPC course, but only because Ian and his gang haven't figured out a way to place some form of heater under the fairways to melt off the snow.
-
Henrye,
Golf Digest, hands down matters most for new. Score for top 100 (should be 25 to 50 though).
I will say Angus North is a suprise.
Ian
P.S. working on the top secret heater project.
-
Calusa is a very good course-for 17 holes-#18 is WEAK,and I like short par 5's
Very pleased to see Branton Woods' showing. Bergstol had done a lot of construction for Fazio and has just recently started doing his own designs. He has a tremendous amount of potential. Worth a play, for sure, if you are in the NY area next summer.
Have heard many good things about Calusa. Has anybody out there actually played it?
-
Ian & Ben,
Kind of surprised that there was no mention of Battlefeild.
-
John,
To be honest, I did not go down this year. The feedback has been mixed, but Ian would know more.
Best,
Ben
-
The two that I've played that made the lists are pretty good.
The Legends in Prior Lake, Minn. (25-30 min from downtown Minneapolis) is another good course by Gill Miller Architechts. The sixth hole is a long, demanding par 4 (450ish from the back) with water left off the tee and water short and right near the green. The one shots on the back side both have forced carries over water. There's also one short two shot hole (which I like). There's a good variety of holes. Maybe none are spectacular, but none are bad.
The bad about the course is it isn't that friendly to walkers. No benches and with GPS on the carts, they don't think walkers would like to know where the pins are on greens. I don't need a pin sheet, but red, white, blue flags would've been nice.
One nice thing is the Sunday afternoon rates are very affordable (less than $50 if I'm not mistaken).
TPC at Rivers Bend:
I'm generally not a huge fan of Arnie courses, but this was better. There are a lot of trees -- especially for a TPC. There's a good mix of holes and challenging greens. The only drawback is that the closing hole is a bit weak, a short par 5 that lacks character. All in all, pretty good for a TPC and better than the one in the Twin Cities.
I haven't had a chance to play The Summit, a course on the affordable public list. Reports, however, are good.
-
John,
I was surprised that Battlefield didnt make it either. Granted I did not see any of the ones that won in Canada, but I did see several that were competing for it, and Battlefield was the best that I saw. Very flashy bunkering, lots of eye candy, solid track.
D