Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: T_MacWood on June 08, 2005, 10:59:07 PM
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I've read some very positive comments about this restoration. What is a little confusing to me...what exactly was restored? Is this a Ross course?
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Yes, it's a Ross.
Maybe this will help with what was restored if Kris Spence or Walker Taylor or a few others who know more don't see this thread.
http://www.donaldrosssociety.org/MEMBERS/GrovePark.htm
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Scott
The article says Ross designed the course circa 1924. I've never been able to find any connection between the Grove Park Inn (Asheville CC) and Ross. Are you sure it is a Ross course, if i'm not mistaken the course dates back to at least 1911?
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It was Ross's work, all of it crammed onto about 85 acres, and on the grounds of the glorious old GPI. Kris Spence did a very fine restoration job that markedly improved sight lines, bunker visibility, and widened playing corridors. Putting surfaces were reclaimed and lots of trees were cut back and the whole golf course was regrassed. It reopened in late 2003, as I recall.
Country Club of Asheville in town is a very mediocre, much hacked up Ross layout.
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Scott
The article says Ross designed the course circa 1924. I've never been able to find any connection between the Grove Park Inn (Asheville CC) and Ross. Are you sure it is a Ross course, if i'm not mistaken the course dates back to at least 1911?
Asheville CC (actually CC of Asheville) and GPI are two different entities (and two different courses). CCA is listed as a Ross on golfcourse.com, but they've been wrong before. Biltmore Forest CC in Asheville is also a Ross and hosted the 1999 U.S. Women's Amateur.
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Scott
Asheville CC and the Grove Park Inn are the same golf course. The club sold the course to the Inn in 1976.
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Brad
As far as I've been able to gather the only courses Ross designed in Asheville are Biltmore Forest, Beaver Lake (today CC of Asheville) and Asheville Municipal (today Buncombe CC).
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Scott
Asheville CC and the Grove Park Inn are the same golf course. The club sold the course to the Inn in 1976.
Sorry, I thought you were misnaming the CC of Asheville, a real and separate course today, also apparently a Ross design. I should know better, considering the level of research you do.
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Scott
Asheville CC and the Grove Park Inn are the same golf course. The club sold the course to the Inn in 1976.
Sorry, I thought you were misnaming the CC of Asheville, a real and separate course today, also apparently a Ross design. I should know better, considering the level of research you do.
I thought the same Scott, as today many people mistakenly call CC of Asheville by the name Asheville CC.
I have played Buncome CC (which is public) years ago and seen Biltmore Forest (but have not played yet). Which are both Ross. However I was pretty sure that I heard that GPI course was originally Ross as well.
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The Tufts Archives doesn't have any original Ross drawing or plans of Asheville CC, nor do they have any historic information linking Ross to the course. And Ross never listed Asheville within his fairly comprehensive booklet of designs and redesigns--but ironically Willie Park II listed it in his booklet.
Did Chris Spence or anyone at the Ross Society uncover a Ross connection prior to restoring the course?
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From the Grove Park Inn web-site:
"The Golf Course first opened for play in 1899 and was redesigned in 1924 by Ross. The 6,720-yard, par 70 layout is a shot maker's challenge with emphasis on accuracy rather than power."
Maybe someone from the Ross society might want to give them a call and see if they have any of the documentation and/or drawings from this?
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"The Tufts Archives doesn't have any original Ross drawing or plans of Asheville CC, nor do they have any historic information linking Ross to the course."
Is that unusual?
Probably around 1997 or 1998 I called Chris Januzek in Pinehurst and asked if they had anything on my course and she looked and said they didn't. I believe I also remember her saying when Ross died a lot of his papers were just dumped in a barrel and burned. If that's true I guess it's proabable that Ross may've worked on some courses where no record now exists.
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I wouldn't expect the GPI to be a good source of information on the history of ACC since they didn't take over the course until the last 1970's. I've spoken to the Inn, they don't have any plans and their understanding of who did what is a little sketchy, not well documented.
If Ross was ever there, my guess would be around 1926 when a new clubhouse was built. However the fact that he does not list the course, makes me even wonder about that as well.
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Tom,
I visited the Tufts Archives earlier this year with Lloyd Cole and Craig Disher. I was trying to get information on the seven Ross courses that Flynn redesigned and they didn't have drawings or information on any of them. Although it is a terrific place with loads of great archival materials, it just isn't comprehensived in any sense, especially given the high output by Ross and company.
Did anyone there see the original framed drawing of Ross's bunker styles? I think there are 6 with various slopes, edges and faces. Pretty interesting stuff. I know they make facsimile reproductions. Its a nice looking drawing. If you want to order one, they'd be happy to have one made for you.
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"Is that unusual?"
Its not unusual that they wouldn't have the plans, although they have the plans for many of his courses. It would be unusual that they wouldn't have any historic documentation in a file on ACC (or Gulph Mills for that matter). There is plenty of histotical information connecting GM to Ross, including its listing in his booklet of projects (put out around 1930-31).
When researching within the Tufts, there are two major areas to search. The first place would be where they catalog his plans/drawings. The other area is the individual files on each Ross course, that contains old magazine and newspaper clippings, letters, old photos etc.
I would disagree with Wayne, the information is fairly comprehensive, especially if you are only trying to confirm Ross was involved in a particular project....which is the case here.
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Wayne
What seven Ross courses were you searching for?
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Let me see if I understand this thread correctly. Is Tom MacWood saying that it's possible that Michael J. Fay and Kris Spence (and perhaps Brad Klein) think a Ross golf course was restored to Ross that never was a Ross golf course in the first place?
Or is this some misunderstanding over the name of a course?
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" It would be unusual that they wouldn't have any historic documentation in a file on ACC (or Gulph Mills for that matter)."
Tom MacWood:
Well, then the fact that they had nothing down there on GMGC should be considered unusual then---even if Chris Januzek didn't seem to think it was unusual. I remember that conversation with her well. She said even if they had nothing on some course down there that may've had something to do with Ross her suggestion was to scower the local area for some evidence that a course may've had something to do with Ross. The best example of that is Jeffersonville. Pinehurst and Tufts had nothing on it apparently but the supervisor of the township that owned it did scower the local area and found some pay receipts in the attic of some little old lady's house in the area---an example of the unusual documentation discovery.
I'm not saying that Chris Januzek was implying that GMGC was not a Ross course even if they had nothing down there she could find on it. Obviously it's a Ross course because we have plenty in our club from the beginning proving it is for a whole variety of reasons and obviously Pinehurst and Tufts was aware of that (I should probably copy all I have on GMGC from Ross and send it to Tufts). I called Januzek only to see if they had something down there in Pinehurst that we didn't have at GMGC.
As for some other courses that may think they are Ross but may never have been I'd offer the example of Concord G.C. (originally Brinton Lakes and later Concordville G.C.) I don't know why the club thought for so long they were a Ross course but I don't believe there was anything about the course that ever was. It was originally a William Flynn course and we have the drawings that proved it to them.
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Tom MacWood,
I am not saying the information they have is not comprehensive, I am saying there are large gaps in the courses they have information on. For instance the Old Course at the Homestead. They have a modern scorecard and that is all. I was hoping they had an old scorecard or information about Ross's version of the course. I think I have it figured out but I sure would have liked confirmation.
The seven courses I was trying to research are:
Old Course at Homestead: Ross 1918 Flynn 1925
Prince George's (Beaver Dam): Ross 1921 Flynn 1927
Indian Spring: Ross 1922 Flynn 1944
McCall Field: Ross 1919 Flynn 1923
Pocono Manor: Ross 1919 Flynn 1920
Sunnybrook: Ross 1921 Flynn 1928
Washington GCC: Ross 1915 Flynn 1919
The Tufts has no information on any of these courses.
Then there's the lone Flynn that Ross made changes to. He proposed some significant changes although only small ones were made (one green moved, one tee extended and one green expanded). That would be Huntingdon Valley: Flynn 1927 Ross 1946
We made copies of the HVCC materials for the Tufts. They did supply us with copies of Ross's plans for CC York which were helpful in our comparison/contrast with Flynn's plans submitted at the same time.
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Tom Paul,
Another example of a mis-attribution is Norfolk CC, now Sewell's Point. They think of themselves as a Donald Ross course, his picture hangs in the clubhouse and his name is on the scorecards. Well from the Kennedy collection of scorecards at the USGA we found that the club had at least 2 courses at one time. One may have been by Ross, the other is certainly Flynn. The course they have today is the Flynn course and we proved that to them as well. I don't think they've changed the attribution; maybe after the book comes out ;)
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It was built by Ross as the Ashville Country Club in 1924.
There are numerous histories of the Inn and the golf course at the Tufts Archives that attest to the fact.
It was mangled numerous times by additions to the hotel (which took away parts of the golf course for tennis courts and parking lots). By the time I saw it, it was unrecognizable.
Unrecognizable as a golf course as well as a Ross course.
The restoration was done from some early aerials and completed by Kris Spence in 2002. His work was particularily good considering the extent of the damage done to the course.
It is not unusual that the Tufts Archives does not have the drawings. It is all together too frequent an occurence. It seems that after the death of Ross, Eric Nelson started to burn numerous sets of drawings until he was stopped by Lillian Pippitt (Ross's daughter). What remains of the originals are at the Tufts Archives or in the hands of his heirs and not open to public perusal. As for Ross's business card, I have a copy and the card does not list anywhere near the number of courses he designed. I have often found this puzzling but the card would have been burdensome had he listed all of the courses he designed prior to 1930 (well over 300).
At the time of my first visit to the Tufts Archives, there were only about 80 sets of plans on file. These have been augmented by the collection of data from some 100 clubs over the past fifteen years.
As for original Ross in Ashville the best bet is the Buncombe County Municipal Course which is virtually the same as its opening day with two major exceptions. The nines were reversed and the tenth tee was moved to accomodate a maintenence building. Of course, BCMC suffers from the normal neglect, overtreeing and other time-borne maladies that most munis display.
The Ross Society stands by the designation of the Grove Park Inn, but is always open to new information.
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TE
They have a file on GM..which includes among other things, an old article from the NY Times mentioning Ross's involvement...not to mention his original booklet in which he lists GM as his design.
Wayne
The courses that are NLE are the ones where the info is more scarce. Are you sure Ross designed (or redesigned) all those courses? Doesn't the old Homestead course go back before 1918?
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"When researching within the Tufts, there are two major areas to search. The first place would be where they catalog his plans/drawings. The other area is the individual files on each Ross course, that contains old magazine and newspaper clippings, letters, old photos etc."
Tom:
In a general sense while researching some old course I'd stick with original plans from the architect or some evidence of original documentation from the original architect. At that point I'd try to compare using aerials, photos or whatnot of what actually got built. I would not rely as much on magazine articles and newspaper clippings because in some cases those sources may tend to perpetuate old rumors that never were true in the first place.
How many times over the decades has a Concord G.C. told some writer that they are a Ross course and he reported that? It happens more than we'd like to think and it was never true. But if you can find original documentation from an architect and get lucky enough to compare that to what got built then you know that historic accuracy increases.
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"TE
They have a file on GM..which includes among other things, an old article from the NY Times mentioning Ross's involvement...not to mention his original booklet in which he lists GM as his design."
Tom MacWood:
I realize that. As I said to you before I was looking for something from Pinehurst, Tufts and Chris Januzek that we didn't already have at GMGC or were not aware of from Ross. They had nothing we didn't have or were aware of, and Chris Januzek told me so.
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Michael,
That's great that the Tufts is accumulating the architectural records from the individual Ross clubs. I'm sure you and your society was instrumental in that effort. Good show!
Tom MacWood,
The original Homestead course does predate Ross's coming to America. He did a complete revision of the existing course in 1913-1918. The original 6 holes were built in 1892. The current first tee is supposedly the oldest in America.
We are pretty certain Ross did the original design work or significant work on the courses I listed. We don't have original drawings by Ross but we do have club minutes and other archival materials that indicate his presence at all of them. Aren't they on Brad's list? I thought so. I didn't see the Ross list at Tufts. Is it printed anywhere?
Have you seen the drawing of Ross bunker styles? It is very interesting.
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Wayne, I think this is somewhat overstated what you conclude:
"I visited the Tufts Archives earlier this year with Lloyd Cole and Craig Disher. I was trying to get information on the seven Ross courses that Flynn redesigned and they didn't have drawings or information on any of them. Although it is a terrific place with loads of great archival materials, it just isn't comprehensived in any sense, especially given the high output by Ross and company . . . "
In fact, given the high output by Ross and company, the fact that they have so much is amazing. What do you want or expect, hole by hole plans for all 410 Ross courses, including every contract and telegram? This is far and away the most extensive collection in terms of both volume and percentage of work of any designer's career. Ross himself had his secretary burn his many of his papers upon his death in April 1948, and this is what has been culled from Pinehurst, individual clubs, Ross and his associates, all thanks to the efforts of Khris Januzik, the late W. Pete Jones, and now Audrey Moriarty. I had to do some of my own hunting and gathering, and the record will never be complete. But to have this much is still amazing and unsurpassed. History isn't served up on a silver tray; it has to be dug out of the ground.
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Michael
I spoke to the Tufts on Wenseday and they don't have any historical documentation on Ross and Asheville CC. Did Ross design or redesign Asheville?
What major design or redesign is not on the card?
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Wayne
I have seen the bunker drawing...it is very interesting.
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Brad,
I did not mean to overstate. It seems I did. The collection is very impressive and the staff more than helpful. I meant to convey that if someone goes there to look for specific information there is a good chance there won't be any. While they have about half the courses covered, that leaves a lot missing. It is a great and wonderful collection, I am sorry if it seemed like I disparraged their efforts.
As to the highest percentage of a pre WWII architect's work, the most comprehensive by far is the Flynn collection. The Ross collection is not surpassed in size but it most certainly is in terms of percent. Much of ithe architectural drawings was found in David Gordon's barn and Tom and I have tracked down about 30% more. All together there are about 107 sets of drawings. Nothing comes close.
I know this stuff isn't found on a silver platter. I've spent more than six years researching Flynn and searching for materials. It is found in cabinets behind boilers, in attics, basements, car garages on Long Island and elsewhere. In our case much was found in a barn. It takes dedicated work such as you and others are willing to do. Thank you, but I am well aware.
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Tom MacWood:
I'm still not clear what you may be implying here. Is it that the course that Michael Fay mentioned in the article he wrote a few years ago that's hyperlinked into the first or second post of this thred and that Kris Spence restored in the last few years may not have ever been a Donald Ross golf course?
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Wayne:
That's true that what you have of Flynn's architectural drawings as a percentage of what he did in his career far exceeds that of Donald Ross---not in total amount perhaps as Flynn only did something just over 50 golf courses but certainly as a percentage of a career compared to Ross. I believe Rand Jerris of the USGA mentioned he felt it was the single most complete collection of architectural drawings of any pre-WW2 architect.
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TE
I'm trying to determine if Grove Park Inn is in fact a Ross course (design or redesign)...if it is, what exactly did he do and when?
If Ross wasn't involved...who was?
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"TE
I'm trying to determine if Grove Park Inn is in fact a Ross course (design or redesign)...if it is, what exactly did he do and when?"
Tom MacWood:
Why don't you simply save yourself some time and effort and call up restoration architect Kris Spence and ask him to tell you or show you what he used for documentation on this course to restore this golf course if he and others think it was Ross? If that doesn't satisfy you then perhaps you can at that point launch into this implication that if you haven't yet found the doumentation on your own it may not be a Ross course?
Clubs are mistaken not infrequently about who the architect of their course was. I think some of these "experts" on some of these old architects are sometimes mistaken too in what they attribute to various architects, particularly their favorite architect.
There's one thing I sure do know by now, and that is I would not trust ANYONE to categorically establish that simply because they think something "looks" like an architect it has to be his. I've seen even the best at all this make that mistake occasionally.
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Tom, you're making this way too complicated and asking the wrong questions, then looking for the wrong answers. Why assume Ross as all or nothing?
Willie Park Jr. original nine at GPI in 1909. 9 holes added by Herbert Barker in 1911, then the hotel was added 1912-13 and Ross did a renovation of the existing 18 in 1926.
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Tom:
Have you ever been to this golf course in North Carolina? If not would you be willing to take the word of a few others that the course as redone by Spence (no matter who the original architect was) is better than it was before he did the project and perhaps better than it ever was? Or are you trying to determine if perhaps Spence and the club made a mistake in not restoring 2-3 bunkers where there now is only a single and perhaps for not flashing the sand up quite far enough?
Or would you even ask why in the world I'd even think to ask you a question like that? ;)
Brad Klein said:
"Tom, you're making this way too complicated and asking the wrong questions, then looking for the wrong answers."
Brad:
That's his modus operandi on here---welcome to the frustration trying to discuss things like this with him. But soldier on with the discussion on GPI and Ross my good man, better you than me! ;)
But take care because if he proves that this golf course (GPI) never had anything to do with Donald Ross he's going to prove you, Michael j. Fay, Kris Spence and GPI very wrong in all your combined research. And at that point I'm gonna ask, so what? Is the golf course better today than it used to be or was in the teens or the mid-1920s no matter who the architect was? What'll he say to that?
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Brad
Willie Park II was not in the US in 1909. He claimed to have been in Asheville in 1916-1917. I'm not sure if he redesigned Barker's 18 or proposed a second 18 that was never built. I suspect the latter.
Do you know what Ross did in 1926?
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Tom, some folks at GPI claim that Park did the original nine back in the mid-1890s. Maybe that's when he did it and the date is thus earlier than 1909. In any case, Ross renovated an existing 18-hole course around 1926, as best as I can tell. Please don't complicate things and conjure up ghosts.
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Brad:
Watch yourself pal, you may be approaching some serious timeline potholes with Park Jr. It seems the man was on the other side of the Atlantic back then and not to reappear on our shores for anther 5-6 years. I guess it's possible the course that is now GPI faxed or emailed a topo over to Willie and he faxed or emailed a design plan back but I wouldn't want you to stake your life on that.
Tom MacWood:
This is a little OT and sidebar but I'd really like to know anyway.
Would you personally say, if this golf course was any good in 1899, 1909, the teens or 1926 (in your opinion, of course) that the primary influence for it's architecture should go to Horace Hutchinson (The "Father" of golf architecture, unfortunately later somewhat demoted by you to the "Guide" of Golden Age Architecture), Country Life Magazine and perhaps even be labeled "arts and crafts" architecture? ;)
I mean, you know, we're talking North Carolina here, a virtual hotbed of furniture making, so JUST MAYBE many of its "regional" instincts were fostered back then by the influence of William Morris, HH. CL Mag and the Arts and Crafts Movement, even if noone actually put a real label on it until maybe around 2003!
Try not to freak out over these questions. I'm just trying to determine if William Morris was on the right track or not by claiming that all art forms should be combined somehow as you claimed his vision was to do!
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"Tom, some folks at GPI claim that Park did the original nine back in the mid-1890s. Maybe that's when he did it"
Brad
That was a theory Pete Jones had, but it doesn't appear Park visited the mid-South in 1895 or 1896. Park did acknowledge he was there in 1916-17.
I have a plan that appears to be circa 1913-1919, the basic routing matches the routing today with a few exceptions. One being the clubhouse being in a new location, which required the alteration of a hole (the 3rd hole on the map, which I believe was the 12th in 1926). The new clubhouse was built in 1926.
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Just something the rabbit and I wanted to add:
If one uses Google maps to bring up an aerial of the Asheville area, perhaps to better follow some of the proceedings, there are some errors in labelling golf courses.
If one wants to look at an aerial of the Asheville area, as rabbit and I did earlier, here are a few things:
1. Grove Park Inn is mistakenly labeled CC of Asheville on Google Maps. The large buildings to the NE of the course are the hotel buildings. The golf course is immediately adjacent. This is roughly in the center of the aerial.
2. CC of Asheville is labeled Buncombe Cty Municipal GC, and is located naer the top of the photo. It has the strange routing-
3. Biltmore Forest is south in the picture, and is not visible due to the photos.
4. Buncombe Municipal is SE of the other two courses, in the vicinity of US 70,74, and Interstate 240.
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Tom,
I've been following this thread from the side and am greatly intrigued by all. But I am especially intrigued by your reamrk to Brad KLein where you said, "I have a plan that appears to be circa 1913-1919, the basic routing matches the routing today with a few exceptions."
What names are on this plan? Who drew it? Can you scan and put it on the site for others to see? This might help others in the researches that they are doing and even generate some new discussion.
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There is no name on the plan. It is a basic stick routing which was part of advertisement for the Great Southern RR.
http://docsouth.unc.edu/nc/asheville/asheville.html
This appears to be from 1913-14...this course is most likely the unheralded Herbert Barker's.
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Tom MacWood said;
“There is no name on the plan. It is a basic stick routing which was part of advertisement for the Great Southern RR.
Tom MacW:
Do you think it matters if that stick routing that appears on the hyperlink was done by the architect(s)who designed and built that course or if that stick routing was done by some artist who may’ve done an advertisement for the course or the railroad after the course was built? I think you should seriously consider this from Brad Klein, for the time being;
"Tom, you're making this way too complicated and asking the wrong questions, then looking for the wrong answers. Why assume Ross as all or nothing?"
What’s wrong with taking my advice with getting in touch with Kris Spence and asking him what research documentation he worked with on his recent so-called restoration project of this golf course?
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"This appears to be from 1913-14...this course is most likely the unheralded Herbert Barker's."
Yeah, so what? What if Ross put a total redesign on that golf course (routing) in the mid-1920s? Then what, in your opinion? Would the course (and what Spence recently restored) be something of a Barker, a Ross, or a Barker Ross or Ross Barker? ;)
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I understand that there is or may be some documentation (correspondence/photo) re: Ross in GPI archives.
However, a phone call to GPI probably will not suffice as I understand that most of the material regarding 'golf ' is a stepchild and almost just tossed in the corner.
Tom MacWood,
I just spoke with Kris Spence. His opinion is that Ross was there & worked on the course. He related that all the golf 'stuff' is relegated to a corner of the GPI archives. Kris indicated that he did not find any Ross drawings and worked mostly from the old course photographs. Kris also spoke with the older members as part of his research. This doesn't help you much, other than there may be material (correspondence/photos) in the GPI archives per Kris and Kris thinks that Ross did work at GPI.
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For what's worth, The Architects of Golf list Asheville CC (fka Beaver Lake GC) as a Ross course from 1928.
It also lists the "Grove Park Inn CC" as:
Willie Park, Jr (9 in 1909)
(R.9, A.9) Herbert Barker (1911)
(R) Donald Ross (1924)
(R) Russell Breeden
As has been noted, Kris Spence restored it more recently.
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If Ross had little to nothing to do with this course it sure wouldn't be the first or last course to say or think they were a Ross and weren't.
Consider C&W as a source, for instance. They did so much in collecting information on courses and architects all over the world if it wasn't readily apparent who the architect of some course was what were they going to do other than ask the club what they thought?
But the thought of a Ross restoration that's been broadly praised by a number of Ross "experts" on a course that Ross had little or nothing to do with? That might be a pretty novel one, that's for sure.
In that case I guess I'd have to ask Tom MacWood if he thinks the club made some mistakes in the Spence restoration anyway? (the way he does about Aronimink)
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Tom McWood:
Donald Ross lived in North Carolina for 48 years, he was probably the most traveled of Architects and was plugged into everything golf through his contacts and those of the Tuft's Family. Do you think that Mr. Ross might have objected had the GPI advertised a Ross course? I think he might have.
Everything I have read in the files in Pinehurst (which is not nearly as comprehensive as yourself) makes me believe it was built at some time (1924/6)by Donald Ross. He may well have used some of the routing of Mr. Barker, but that was not really his style. When he redesigned, very little of the original author was left.
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Michael J:
This is interesting stuff. I love to see two good researching minds going at it and trying to deduce things even if they're attempting to draw different conclusions. Belay that--particularly if they're trying to draw different conclusions! Can you prove that GPI advertized the course in question here as Ross while Ross was still alive? If so it sure would seem the point you made in the post above is an excellent one to consider.
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“Do you think that Mr. Ross might have objected had the GPI advertised a Ross course? I think he might have.”
Interesting theory. The only problem, this course was not the Grove Park Inn, but the Asheville CC.
You are right though, Ross didn’t design a lot of resort courses: The Broadmoor, Bellaire Biltmore, French Lick, Balsams, The Sagamore, Havana Biltmore and maybe a few more, but they are all pretty far from Pinehurst.
Back to Asheville CC, I did some digging and found why I believe Ross did not list this golf course.
In the American Golfer March 7, 1925 titled ‘The Winter Season in Asheville’: it is announced a contract has been signed to have Ross design a new municipal course in Asheville. “Ross laid out the Biltmore Forest Course and that at Beaver Lake, two suburban courses of this city, and is confident that this, his third venture among Asheville hills, will prove his best.”
American Golfer May 2, 1925 titled ‘Divots from Asheville’ : it is announced a new clubhouse for Asheville CC will be built at a price tag of $250,000.
American Golfer May 30, 1925 titled ‘Divots from Asheville’: Because the new clubhouse will be on the north edge of the property, the holes must be rearranged. In response Donald Ross will build one new hole, in addition he will remodel three greens. He evidently was planning to move some tees because the course will be 200 yards longer. It will be ready January 1.
American Golfer June 1926 titled ‘Asheville Activities’: May 18 the new clubhouse officially opened. However according to article the course only has an additional 30 yards. It then goes on to list the renumbering of the holes: #15 is now #1, #16 is now #2, and so on. No mention of the new hole.
Ross was a man of integrity; he never took credit for designs in which he only made minor changes….I don’t think one hole and possibly three greens would warrant attribution. Herbert Barker is not chop liver, the Grove Park Inn should still be proud, plus the jury is still out on what Willie Park Jr. may have done.
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This is wonderful research stuff! I love it.
Great material and response Tom!
Response from the other side of the debate please!
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Here is a cool picture I found while searching in American Golfer (1/10/25). A 36 hole match at Asheville CC between American Amateurs and British Pros. The pros won 2-1.
(http://homepage.mac.com/tmacwood/.Pictures/gpi.jpg)
Francis Ouimet, George Duncan, Bobby Jones, Abe Mitchell and the beautiful Grove Park Inn..
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I agree Donald the Ross sure looked like your favorite old uncle and seemed to be a man of real integrity but he surer than hell was a super salesman boardering on the.....
This from Ross on the contract to build my course, Gulph Mills G.C. in Philadelpia in 1916;
He promised GMGC's course to be "....one of the best inland courses in this country and it will undoubedly be a much superior course to any around Philadelphia."
Uh, Don, Don, don't forget about Pine Valley G.C and Merion East!! ;) :)
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Wow, I guess the club got those great players down there to celebrate Donald Ross redesigning a couple of greens and some tee. That looks like a mighty large clubhouse looming behind those stars! ;)
What was the deal with the hotel and the club in 1925? Was there some kind of hotel/club arrangement like the Lido in the beginning?
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More research. I have in my hands an original, faded but genuine pamphlet from Donald J. Ross, Golf Course Architect, listing his courses that he did, organized state-by-state, roughly issued in 1930 - there are no dates, but Seminole is on there, for example. Among the North Carolina listings are the following:
Biltmore Forest Country Club 18 holes
Biltmore
Beaver Lake Country Club 18 holes
Asheville
Asheville Municipal 18 holes
Asheville
Not every Ross course is listed - he leaves off White Bear Yacht Club and Kennett Square, among others. He also separately lists courses as "remodeled" if he did just tinker with an existing layout (note, not indicated for any of the Asheville courses). As for resort courses, he also did Shennecossett, Augusta CC-Hill Course, and I think proper credit is due him for Seaview-Bayside, Miami-Biltmore, and, up in Canada, Banff Springs (Alb.) and the Algonquin (N.B.).
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Tom MacWood,
Wow! As usual, your research uncovers some remarkable stuff. I need to read through this thread once again to gain a full understanding. :o
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My take on this thread (I agree with Dunlop, I have to reread it to understand what really may be going on here since I've never seen this course and know nothing at all about it) is Tom MacWood is beginning to point out that it's possible that a whole slew of people, and some apparently knowledgeable ones, have assumed, perhaps for years, that a golf course was completely redone by Ross when it may not have been.
This research by Tom MacWood (if it plays out the way it might) is not exactly proving who designed and built some golf course but who may not have designed a particular golf course---eg GPI---by Donald Ross.
If Tom MacWood proves that Ross, at best, had little to do with the course design-wise it only proves to me how far rumors go and for how long until and unless someone actually proves there is no truth to those long-lasting rumors of architectural attribution. This is certainly not the first time this has happened. There may be a good number of golf courses out there who think or claim their desiginer may have been some famous architect or someone absolutely other than the one who actually did it.
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I was driving around town just now, waiting for my local Starbucks to open, and realizing that when Kris Spence was re-doing Grove Park Inn - I visited him on site in the middle of the process - he never claimed to be "restoring" the placr to the way Ross had it. He never misrepresented the facts, and admitted that in the absence of plans or documentation as to what the course looked like when Ross was done with it, what Spence was doing was putting it into the kind of shape that looked like Ross had done (elsewhere) and that Ross might well have done at GPI if he had the chance himself in the late 20th century to do it. This isn't p.r. flimflam, it's being honest. GPI's wwonderful director of golf then, Dal Raiford, who knew more about GPI than anyone and who loved the place (and golf) like noone, was thrilled and fully supportive of exactly that approach. And it was the rightr one and the only one to take.
It's also exactly the approach that, under parallel circumstances, Chip Powell did at the Bellevue Biltmore in Fla. 2002-2003, when, in the absence of Ross diocumentation or plans, he went ahead and did as sensitive and thoughtful an interpretation of Ross as anyone could muster.
I think it's easy to get carried away with the ideal or paradigm of pure restoration. Of course it's hepful to know the historical facts and record, but it's also helpful to have architects sensitive to the nuance of interpretation when they might otherwise get carried away by their own egos. The American golf landscape has never fully outgrown the scars of those who lacked this hubris. GPI is better off now for Spence's approach than it had been, or than it would have been in someone else's hands less sensitive to Ross. In the case of Ross, the best restoration efforts make the course now more Ross than it ever was.
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But Brad, that's the type of thing any golf course faces that contemplates a restoration of a particular architect.
The difference here (at least according to what Tom MacWood may be attempting to prove) is that this golf course never really was Donald Ross, at least not in the comprehensive way from the 1924-1926 era that has been claimed by so many for so long.
It wouldn't be any different than if Kris Spence came into Concord G.C that claimed for so long that they were a Ross course and restored the course to something that looked like a Ross course.
That's an interesting idea and probably would make Concord G.C. more interesting than it is now but the point is the course never was a Ross course, and they came to understand that in the last few years when they found out who their original architect really was.
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Tom, to be touched by God is good enough to have been embraced by him, isn't it?
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Brad said;
“Tom, to be touched by God is good enough to have been embraced by him, isn't it?
Brad:
I guess one could certainly say that if they felt Donald Ross making a couple of minor architectural changes was akin to being touched by God. But the point here from Tom MacWood is as follows;
“American Golfer May 30, 1925 titled ‘Divots from Asheville’: Because the new clubhouse will be on the north edge of the property, the holes must be rearranged. In response Donald Ross will build one new hole, in addition he will remodel three greens. He evidently was planning to move some tees because the course will be 200 yards longer. It will be ready January 1.
American Golfer June 1926 titled ‘Asheville Activities’: May 18 the new clubhouse officially opened. However according to article the course only has an additional 30 yards. It then goes on to list the renumbering of the holes: #15 is now #1, #16 is now #2, and so on. No mention of the new hole.
Ross was a man of integrity; he never took credit for designs in which he only made minor changes….I don’t think one hole and possibly three greens would warrant attribution. Herbert Barker is not chop liver, the Grove Park Inn should still be proud, plus the jury is still out on what Willie Park Jr. may have done.”
The point of this thread is whether or not what was reported above is historically accurate or not. In other words, is that all Donald Ross ever did at Asheville C.C, later to be called GPI (since we’re trying to assume we’re discussing one and the same golf course)? If that was all he ever did there it seems like Tom MacWood has proven that this golf course never was the total Donald Ross design or redesign the club and some who are Ross experts have claimed it was.
If Ross redesigned a couple of greens and added a few yards to some tee I guess I have every right to call my golf course a Ross, or a Maxwell, or a Stiles, McGovern, Gordon or RTJ depending on who I’m talking to and who might be most impressed by any of those architects.
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Understood and accepted, TEP. I was just being facetious without relying upon the crutch of that dopey little smiley face.
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Brad:
I know. I've tried to take Dan Kelly's everlasting advice that if one wants to be humorous on here try to do it with words not the crutch of those little no-neck monsters (the smileys that have given me a nightmare or two). The only trouble with this site is its ability to get humor ain't great or else those trying to float it ain't great.
But humor, as much as I like and appreciate it, can't escape the nub of this thread. In your opinion, and Michael j. Fay, Kris Spence and GPI G.C's opinion. is Tom MacWood's contention of what Donald Ross did or did not do at this golf course in question on this thread (Asheville CC or CC of Asheville or GPI or whatever the hell it was called at any particular time) true or not true?
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Brad:
Would you say that Tom MacWood is out to destroy your "Donald Ross" credibilty and perhaps Michael J Fay's and the Donald Ross Society's too?
If so, just let me know. I should be driving back from Michigan in about ten days time and maybe you'd like to meet me somewhere around Cleveland or wherever that Ivory Tower is in the deep of night and we can both take care of this dangerous iconoclast once and for all!
(Ummmm umm, ummm, was it ever hard to resist the smiley face this time).
Wake up Tom MacWood, you've got a ton of some serious posting to do this morning. Some of the stuff you've been uncovering lately is a lot better than those "Cold Case" shows that are getting popular on TV these days!
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Taking the GPI from the Ross column and moving it to the Barker column is obviously not going to 'destroy' DJR.
This excercise has brought out some interesting dilemmas when it comes to restoration. But the restoration angle wasn't what sparked my interest and the original question, I honestly wanted to know who did what.
I read a quote from David McCullough the other day, he was asked what he thought the job of a historian was, and he said it was to show that nothing ever had to happen the way it happened. History could have gone off in any number of directions in any number of different ways at any point along the way.
When looking at tons of golf architecture history, that thought has crossed my mind on occassion, but I haven't thought about it that way often. But this thread did get me thinking that way.
In 1915 when Barker went back to Europe to help with the War, I think it could be argued he was the more prominent of the two architects (he and Ross) or at least on an even footing. He had Mayfield, Columbia, Arcola, Rumson under his belt. Like Ross he had collaborated with Colt in Chicago (Winnetka)--the difference being Ross constucted Old Elm for Colt, Barker co-designed Winnetka with Colt. He had also already ventured West, it was reported he designed or redesigned a course in Portland.
Barker was also making great strides in the South--historic Asheville CC (GPI), Richmond (Westhampton), Druid Hills, East Lake (redesign) & Brookhaven in Atlanta, and Palm Beach CC. And perhaps a few more.
If Barker hadn't gone back to fight, been wounded, never able to return to the States, would we be discussing the Barker Society's annual meeting at the Grove Park Inn in 2003?
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Oh please, that sort of speculation goes nowhere and everywhere. If I had won the six U.S. Opens I had caddied in I'd be designing golf courses right now, not writing about them.
TEP, finding the truth is a valid historical exercise, with a certain competitive dimension to get it right. But anyone who thinks these is macho combat or a struggle for destruction misunderstands what historical research is all about - or in some cases I know of, comes from folks with terribly insecure egos. Those who proclaim bombastically as self-appointed experts have no place here. It's a matter of patient searching and sifting evidence. Looking back, there's no claim that I know of that Ross did all of GPI in the 1920s. If it turns out that Ross did even less than thought and Barker (and perhaps Park Jr.) did more, then fine. If that proves to be the case (it hasn't been proven yet, but there's better reason to think it's the case now than three days ago) I can always tweak the chart in the book (it does say "remodel" and doesn't indicate a new course for GPI) when it goes into another edition if that proves necessary.
It won't be the first refinement and I hope it won't be the last. As I mentioned above, I think Spence was pretty clear and consistent in how he claimed he was doing what he was doing. I still think the issue today for restoration is that GPI is now more of a Ross course than it ever was.
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Brad
No need to jump off the deep end....nobody is re-writing history with Barker as the star or criticizing you (or Spence). And you are still THE Ross expert. The twists and turns of history, and the Barker Society are just food for thought.
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Tom, I welcome the research you're doing and think it's helpful. That part we agree on. I do think there are some self-appointed experts who jump to all sorts of grandiose and self-serving conclusions based upon limited evidence. Your inquiry is sa reminde rof how flimsy much evidence is, which i thinkis very sobering. I was just warning against any ensuing speculation involving speculation as to what would have happened had Hitler fallen off a ladder while painting a house in Bavaria in 1920.
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"I was just warning against any ensuing speculation involving speculation as to what would have happened had Hitler fallen off a ladder while painting a house in Bavaria in 1920."
I agree that would be goofy. But speculating what if Hitler hadn't taken a right turn when he was within view of Moscow, or didn't venture into Russia before taking care of Britain or didn't declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor or finished off the British Expeditionary Force at Dunkirk are all legitimate historical exercises.
Perhaps I give Barker a little more credit than you...he was on a fast track prior to joining the British Air Force. IMO he was closer to long term architectural fame than you were of winning six US Opens or Hitler dying from a fall.
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I resent that. My man Skeeter Heath tied for 37th at Oakmont in 1983.
True story - on the 72nd hole, he was 16 over-par and in the middle of the fairway. He had 191 to the back center hole location and asked if 6-iron was enough. I said
"I like 5-iron. If you make birdie here you tie Sam Parks Jr."
Skeeter: "Who the hell is Sam Parks Jr.?"
Klein: "Won the Open here in '35 with the only score under 300 - shot 299. Go for it."
He takes 5-iron, hits it 8 feet left of the hole and sinks the putt.
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...which naturally leads to the burning question, what would have happened had Skeeter Heath fallen off a ladder while painting a house in Winston-Salem...
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I think what would be a lot more useful on here is to find out who designed some of these golf courses or how much of them they did instead of speculating on how famous Barker would have been had he not gone to war in Europe. As Brad Klein said that sort of stuff leads everywhere and anywhere and ultimately nowhere.
Tom MacWood:
I'm a huge fan of David McCullough and certainly his "John Adams". His writing style alone can almost make one taste and smell the life and times back then of Adams and I think that's extremely evocative of the reality of times past. But I see no real purpose of applying the potential of the small increments of fate that would have taken some event in some entirely different direction. To me the best use of history is to first understand better what actually did happen in the past and why. There is always too little of that today and there needs to be more understanding of it before historians try to redefine and reinterpret some historical time for some agenda or philosophy one may be fond of today.
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"I think what would be a lot more useful on here is to find out who designed some of these golf courses or how much of them they did instead of speculating on how famous Barker would have been had he not gone to war in Europe."
Thanks for the advice (maybe you should pass it along to McCullough as well)....as far as finding out who do what, thats what I've been doing for several years. My Barker file is almost as thick as my Flynn file. :-\
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Seems like the articles from American Golfer from the 1920's are raising a lot of the valid questions here. Just to add another one into the mix (although I think it's an important one)...
Are we certain the magazine got the names of the courses correct? Are we sure it's talking about the Grove Park course?
It's easy to get these courses confused -- Country Club of Asheville (where the NC Am is being completed today); Asheville CC (now GPI apparently); Biltmore Forest. All commonly attributed to Ross, all old.
Isn't it possible they got the name of the course being tweaked incorrect? Goodness knows, magazines today are full of similar errors.
Do the hole numbers referenced give any clues?
Ken
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Ken
It was much simpler in the 20's. It only became complicated in the 1970's when they started re-naming these courses. Prior to 1978 there was no Grove Park Inn golf course.
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"Thanks for the advice (maybe you should pass it along to McCullough as well)...."
You're welcome. No need to pass anything along to David McCullough, he seems to be doing just fine as an historian and really excellent writer. When you get to the point he is then maybe you too can consider treating history as he does.
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What was the deal with the hotel and the club (Asheville CC) in the mid 1920s? Was there some kind of hotel/club arrangement like the Lido in the beginning or that was intiially proposed for the Lido?
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Ken
It was much simpler in the 20's. It only became complicated in the 1970's when they started re-naming these courses. Prior to 1978 there was no Grove Park Inn golf course.
Sounds to me like it would have been MORE complicated back in the 20's -- Country Club of Asheville and Asheville Country Club? Do we know the magazine had the correct name?
Ken
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Ken
There were four courses in Asheville in the 20's:
Asheville CC
Asheville Municipal
Biltmore Forest
Beaver Lake
Beaver Lake changed its name to CC of Asheville in the 70's.
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Tom,
Im not sure if anyone can definitively say whether or not the GPI course was Ross or not, unfortunately there is little evidence. The GPI had at one time a small archive of photo's and records of the course including letters, news clippings and hotel log in sheets. It wasn't very organized to say the least and as I found out recently may have been shipped off to storage. I was able to go through the documents on two occasions and I do seem to recall references of Ross being at the Grove Park, not necessarily doing design work but perhaps staying while in town. There was a older gentlemen, perhaps 86 to 90 years old who lived behind the current 6th green who came and spoke to us about the original Ross course and that some of our work was exactly the way Ross did it.
I think is was assumed by everyone that Ross expanded and remodeled portions of the course in 1924 with completion in 1926. The stick routing shown in this post does not represent the routing shown on the 1940 aerial that we used in performing the work. 12 of the holes on the stick routing are the same as the aerial and the current course with 6 others having been changed significantly.
I didnt have alot of time for research when preparing the plan to renovate the course. I did as much as I could but unfortunately came up empty handed at the Tuft Archives and the GPI archives. The aerial was retrieved from the USGS and was taken from a very high altitude. I used a magnifying glass to study the aerial and walked the property to discover any remaining features which were minimal. The course depicted on the aerial certainly resembled Ross work, that in itself doesn't prove anything. Also shown on the same aerial was the Beaver Lake course, both courses looked very similiar when looking at the bunker styles, green shapes etc. Actually the Beaver Lake aerial had some very eccentric green shapes and what appeared to be an island green shaped like a triangle, I never was able to verify if it was part of the course or not.
I find your post's very interesting and I would love to see any drawings of Mr. Barkers work. I am not familiar with his career or the style / character of his work but would be interested in seeing if all or portions of the GPI course depicted on the aerial were his work. Send me a private note as I am interested in learning more about this topic.
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Kris
I don't have any drawings produced by Barker...I'm not even sure he made any drawings.
I'll scan some photos of his work, and post them. I've played a couple of his courses--Columbia and Mayfield--and as far as I can tell his greatest strength was his ability utilize the natural features of the site. Mayfield is brilliant in that respect, one of the best routings I've run across. Columbia is very good as well.
I'll send you the articles I've dug up.
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(http://homepage.mac.com/tmacwood/.Pictures/mayfield1.jpg)
13th at Mayfield--the second of back to back 200+ par-3's
(http://homepage.mac.com/tmacwood/.Pictures/mayfield6.jpg)
The 1st at Mayfield
(http://homepage.mac.com/tmacwood/.Pictures/mayfield4.jpg)
The wild 2nd at Mayfield. The tee is in the distance, over the hill. The tee shot is like hitting over a two story building.
(http://homepage.mac.com/tmacwood/.Pictures/mayfiled5.jpg)
The 5th as seen from the tee (Mayfield).
(http://homepage.mac.com/tmacwood/.Pictures/mayfield3.jpg)
The par-3 17th (Mayfield).
(http://homepage.mac.com/tmacwood/.Pictures/arcola.jpg)
The 4th at Arcola (NJ).
(http://homepage.mac.com/tmacwood/.Pictures/asheville.jpg)
A view of Asheville CC in 1914.
(http://homepage.mac.com/tmacwood/.Pictures/barker.jpg)
H.H. Barker
In the 1910's Mayfield was considered one of the premier courses in the US (certainly in the top 10, and closer #1 than to #10), in fact when they gave Barker his marching orders the goal was to build a course to rival Myopia--"beat Myopia" was their moto.
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Tom MacW -
I am not familiar with Barker. Would love to hear more. But if he did all the courses pictured above, I don't think I've ever seen an architect with so many different "looks". I would not have thought that those courses were all by the same designer. Wow.
Bob
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Bob
I ran across an article that claimed Atlanta was the first city in the Deep South with three golf courses, and Barker designed two of them--Brookhaven (Capital City) and Druid Hills and redsigned the other--Atlanta Athletic Club. I believe the article was 1910 or 1911. Atlanta might be the best place to study his work....if there is anything left.
He was a fine English amateur from Yorkshire, who competed with Colt, Darwin, Hutchison, Hutchinson, Hilton, Ball, Maxwell, etc. He was a protege of Sandy Herd, and like Herd made the unusual move from top amateur to professional. He took the job of pro at GCGC in 1906 or 1907. That was a hell of a move...British amateur to head professional at one of the top clubs in the US, if not the top club. He was at GCGC when Travis made many of his historic changes...Travis (and American Golfer) were major promoters of Barker.
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Tom -
Very interesting. I had no idea that Barker had an Atlanta connection.
Brookhaven's front nine is probably close to Barker's original design. The back has undergone a number of changes. BTW, Brookhaven is the site of Bobby Jones's first state-wide tournie win. He won the state am at Brookhaven in at the age of 14.
Druid Hills may still be reasonaby close to Barker's design as well, though Cupp recently redid a number of holes on the back.
Both courses are very short, in-town lay-outs that remain challenging.
Bob
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I recently discovered that Barker built a replica of the 12th at GCGC at Columbia (the 16th)...when Travis redesigned the course it appears he eliminated the mounds on that green...ironic.
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Tom -
Now that I think more about it, Barker must have been the most protean architect ever. Not only do your pictures above reflect very different styles, but Barker's two courses in Atlanta look and feel nothing like one another. They may have been changed more than I think, but I would never have guessed they were by the same designer. Very strange.
BTW, both of his Atlanta courses were built in the middle of what were upscale neighborhoods. The kind of places that would have paid top dollar for a "name". Which I assume Barker was at the time.
Bob
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"...when Travis redesigned the course it appears he eliminated the mounds on that green...ironic."
Tom MacW:
Really? At what point are you speaking of Travis redesigning GCGC or when do you suppose Travis removed the mounds (they were more like inline berms actually) on the 12th hole of GCGC? That old aerial photo of that green has been on this website a number of times that shows those inline berms on the green. Do you know when that photo taken? For some odd reason I think we might hear from Pat on this? Should be an interesting dialogue. ;)
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The mounds at Columbia CC, not GCGC.
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Speaking of "Country Club of Asheville" is it a course worth trying to play when I'm vacationing in the area this summer? Generally I don't care much for the few "mountain golf" courses I've played but I do love old classics no matter where they're situated.
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Go play it !
The CC of Asheville course was FKA Beaver Lake CC. and a drawing of the 16th hole was featured in GC Thomas' 1927 book, Golf Architecture in America (page 189). The 16th is a long (600 yard) downhill par 5 with a creek on the left, which you end up playing across twice. Several very good par 3s. Interesting short par 4s. The first hole is not the best and there are a few mundane holes like any classic or modern course.
It is as interesting as Biltmore Forest and GPI in my opinion.
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In "Golf Has Never Failed Me" Grove Park Inn is listed as a Remodel in 1926 as has been suggested. There is also a photo in the book of one of GPI's greens, the 4th I think. Don't know if that supports anything, but I found it interesting.
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KSL Capital Partners yesterday announced its acquisition of the Grove Park Inn. The private equity firm's other golf resort holdings include The Homestead, Montelucia, Barton Creek, Rancho Las Palmas, The Royal Palm, La Costa Resort and ClubCorp.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ksl-capital-partners-enters-into-an-agreement-to-acquire-the-historic-grove-park-inn-resort-spa-2012-04-10 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ksl-capital-partners-enters-into-an-agreement-to-acquire-the-historic-grove-park-inn-resort-spa-2012-04-10)
The press release says that KSL is "planning an extensive $25 million renovation of the resort’s public areas, guest rooms, dining outlets, meeting spaces and spa that will honor the historic style of the resort while enhancing the guest experience."
Notably absent from the above list is the golf course ... though I admittedly don't know if it needs work. Anybody play it recently who can weigh in?
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Howard, some photos from last year: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42411.html
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http://www.krisspence.com/groveparkgallery1.html
Kris Spence did some work here back around 2007. I believe Course Doctors did the construction work.
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KSL Capital Partners yesterday announced its acquisition of the Grove Park Inn. The private equity firm's other golf resort holdings include The Homestead, Montelucia, Barton Creek, Rancho Las Palmas, The Royal Palm, La Costa Resort and ClubCorp.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ksl-capital-partners-enters-into-an-agreement-to-acquire-the-historic-grove-park-inn-resort-spa-2012-04-10 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ksl-capital-partners-enters-into-an-agreement-to-acquire-the-historic-grove-park-inn-resort-spa-2012-04-10)
The press release says that KSL is "planning an extensive $25 million renovation of the resort’s public areas, guest rooms, dining outlets, meeting spaces and spa that will honor the historic style of the resort while enhancing the guest experience."
Notably absent from the above list is the golf course ... though I admittedly don't know if it needs work. Anybody play it recently who can weigh in?
I played the course two years ago (the only time I ever played it). I would say it does not need any serious work, in the design sense. One of my regular golfing group in Charlotte also has a home in Asheville where he lives most of the summer, and he has some sort of a seasonal "membership" at the Grove Park Inn course. He loves it. My recollection is that the only messy area is several adjacent uphill, downhill parallel holes that are divided by obviously artificial "tree fences." There is also a wierd little par 3 that feels cramped in, but given the space limitations I don't think there is much that can be done about that. Kris Spence did a good job in a redo about five to seven years ago. Maintenance was pretty good when I visited. My main concern would be how the new owners keep up the course. Another thought. For a "resort" course I think it is a little too difficult. Again, my recollection is that there were only three teeing areas on each hole. If it could be reasonably done, I'd like to see a 4th set of tees added between the then-current forward and middle tees.
As someone who visits Asheville frequently, my main concern has to do with what the new owners will do with the hotel itself. The main hotel building, the original, is a classic arts and crafts design with lots of museum quality arts and crafts furnishings in use and on display. A number of years ago, but subsquent to when I began visiting Asheville in the 1960s, the family that owned the property added two huge, modern, unattractive wings that overwhelm the old building. Moreover, a lot of tacky decor was added to the classic older stuff, which to my eye doesn't mix at all well. My assumption is that the family decided that they had to make the changes they did to make the place a successful business venture in the modern age. I've wondered whether the Inn could be operated more tastefully, and yet still make a go of it financially. http://www.groveparkinn.com/
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Course doesn't need work - it's fine. I would actually have been surprised if they said the 25 million was earmarked in part for work on the golf course.
No range, but no room.
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Mark, Jonathan, Carl, Ryan -
Thanks for the additional insight on the Grove Park Inn. We stayed there a night back in 2006 but didn't have a chance to play the course. Instead, the day was spent touring the Biltmore and exploring the city. I appreciated the arts & crafts feel of the hotel and features such as the massive stone fireplaces, old photographs and mid-afternoon happy hour.
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Mark, Jonathan, Carl, Ryan -
Thanks for the additional insight on the Grove Park Inn. We stayed there a night back in 2006 but didn't have a chance to play the course. Instead, the day was spent touring the Biltmore and exploring the city. I appreciated the arts & crafts feel of the hotel and features such as the massive stone fireplaces, old photographs and mid-afternoon happy hour.
Of further Grove Park Inn interest, see this collection of old post cards (what is referred to as the Asheville Country Club course is today the Grove Park Inn course, which the Inn acquired from Asheville CC -- can't recall the date -- after which ACC acquired and remodeled a different course (Beaver Lake) for its members): http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=exact&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISORESTMP=/cdm4/results.php&CISOVIEWTMP=/cdm4/item_viewer.php&CISOMODE=grid&CISOGRID=thumbnail,A,1;title,A,1;subjec,A,0;descri,200,0;none,A,0;20;title,none,none,none,none&CISOBIB=title,A,1,N;titla,A,0,N;captio,200,0,N;none,A,0,N;none,A,0,N;20;title,none,none,none,none&CISOTHUMB=20+%284x5%29;title,none,none,none,none&CISOTITLE=20;title,none,none,none,none&CISOHIERA=20;captio,title,none,none,none&CISOSUPPRESS=1&CISOBOX1=grove+park+inn&CISOROOT=/nc_post
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Grove Park Inn is one of the classic old hotels in America - one of a kind. A great example of the American Arts & Crafts movement, not only the architecture of the building, but also the furniture and other fixtures within the hotel.
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(http://sandhillsinsider.com/gpi.jpg)
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Perhaps it has been mentioned, but GPI was bought recently by a private equity fund. As I recall they plan to invest $25MM in upgrades. The press release I saw did not specify if some of that money would go towards the golf course.
GPI is a terrific place. I hope it retains its old historical charm.
Bob
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I stumbled across a couple of articles from 1923-24 relating to Ross at what is now the Grove Park Inn course (formerly Asheville Country Club) while looking for something entirely different. I remembered this old thread, so thought I would post them here. Both articles are large pieces on Asheville generally, so I have cropped them down to the relevant portions in order to make the images readable. The first is from the June 24, 1923 Charlotte Observer...
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj310/eko_gfl/CharlotteObserverJune241923Excerpt_zps3070e53d.png) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/eko_gfl/media/CharlotteObserverJune241923Excerpt_zps3070e53d.png.html)
The second is from the June 8, 1924 Richmond Times Dispatch...
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj310/eko_gfl/RichmondTimesDispatchJune81924Excerpt_zps9152a853.png) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/eko_gfl/media/RichmondTimesDispatchJune81924Excerpt_zps9152a853.png.html)
Both articles credit Ross with laying out the course. The first can be read to imply that he did so in roughly 1913, although that certainly isn't clear. While I don't think these articles are necessarily dispositive, they tend to support the Inn's position that Ross designed the course.
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Ed:
My read of the first article is that it is suggesting Ross laid out the course "over 20 years ago" or around 1903, not 1913. I do not think that was the case.
As for the second article, it seems to be giving Ross credit for "laying out" the course due to his having lengthened it. This was during a time when the Ross name was a bit of a marketing weapon.
Sven
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I didn't realize that the Grove Park Inn course was previously known as Asheville Country Club.
It's also interesting that Ross is also credited for having "designed and built" the similarly named Country Club of Asheville in 1928.
http://www.countryclubofasheville.net/index.cfm?ID=80 (http://www.countryclubofasheville.net/index.cfm?ID=80)
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I didn't realize that the Grove Park Inn course was previously known as Asheville Country Club.
It's also interesting that Ross is also credited for having "designed and built" the similarly named Country Club of Asheville in 1928.
http://www.countryclubofasheville.net/index.cfm?ID=80 (http://www.countryclubofasheville.net/index.cfm?ID=80)
Up until 1976 the current Country Club of Asheville golf course was know as Beaver Lake golf course. That year The Grove Park hotel purchased their current course from CCA and then CCA purchased Beaver Lake. The club was knows as Asheville Country Club from 1905 until the mid 40's, when the name was changed to Country Club of Asheville.
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Ed:
My read of the first article is that it is suggesting Ross laid out the course "over 20 years ago" or around 1903, not 1913. I do not think that was the case.
As for the second article, it seems to be giving Ross credit for "laying out" the course due to his having lengthened it. This was during a time when the Ross name was a bit of a marketing weapon.
Sven
Sven, you are right on the date. My math skills are weak that late at night! As for what Ross did, I have no idea. As I said, I don't think these articles are dispositive. My point is just that they can be read to support the club's version of events. Who knows whether that is what actually happened.
Ed
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Up until 1976 the current Country Club of Asheville golf course was know as Beaver Lake golf course. That year The Grove Park hotel purchased their current course from CCA and then CCA purchased Beaver Lake. The club was knows as Asheville Country Club from 1905 until the mid 40's, when the name was changed to Country Club of Asheville.
Thanks for explaining the interesting history. I'm glad there's not a quiz.