Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: RJ_Daley on December 19, 2001, 11:43:09 AM
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John or Barney, that might be the cruelest cut of all... :'(
The spirit of peaceful Ramadan is obviously over and you are really back to bomb tossing. Which Al-Queda local do you belong to? Or, are you a has-been "weatherman" :-/
I for one play 2-3X a week on average, go to the range additional 2X a week and always spend around an hour chipping and putting. The best I could muster in league this year was a couple of 87s on a 6400 yard well designed -and full of subtleties course. The year before 83 once and 85 or better only two or three other times. I am getting worse >:(
But, I'd like to have a chance to design a pair of courses with you "head to head" where there isn't even a handicap system, just the cold harsh critique of other DG participants to examine the strategy/subtleties and aestetics of the two designs :-* And, I don't say that for just myself but have every confidence that at least 3 others whom I know personally that you are probably pointing your remarks towards would beat us both in said compitition to ferret out who knows great golf design, and how to go about actually planning the construction of it. So what do you say? If either of us wins the lottery, let's buy us enough land in Nebraska to accomodate two course (I have it picked out already) and let's have at it! ;D
They say MacKenzie probably wouldn't break 85 too often, particularly under your criteria. I have played with some archies in modern times that aren't much better than your standard of at least a 12 handicap. Yet, they seem(ed) to "get it". :o
Come to think of it, I probably will qualify for the crippled (worsening sciatica) and getting old part, but when it comes to golf, I ain't lazy...and today I ain't too subtle :-[
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I once referred to an assistant pro at our club, who had had a terrible motor-cycle accident that left him with a withered left lower leg, that was amputated several years later, as being crippled. He reminded me in no uncertain tones that he was not a cripple, but disabled. I am not sure if this is political correctness or not but to the infirm, it is a sensitive word.
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Can't use the word crippled huh? Times do change.
Last time I had a knee operation was in NYC about 35 years ago and the doctor was Bill Campbell's brother, Rolla Campbell. The operation was done in NYC's great orthopedic hospital which was called the Hospital for the Ruptured and Crippled! The name was changed to The Hospital for Special Surgery! I liked the first name better!
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gesu cristo, here we go again :-/
"crippled" is a legitimate word. Modern culture has somehow given it a negative connotation and cause to become hyper-sensitive about. It is the same as those who would feel constrained to call us folks legitimately named Dick, "thingy". ::)
My perturbance above is about the haughty notion that one's playing skill is somehow linked to one's intelligence and ability to grasp golf course architecture/construction or maintenance and understand or see subtleties in a particular design or complexities in a problem or condition on the course. Just because you can't regularly execute the shot or make the putt don't mean you can't see it or its alternatives. It shouldn't relagate or dismiss us higher handicapped players (or is that more golfingly challenged players) to the childrens playground without a standing to comment or critique the big boys course. >:(
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R. J.,
I have no talent for design...I have played golf 33 years and know as much about designing a golf course as I do making love to a woman. My best efforts are alone and in the dark...turn on the lights and I'm just another wannabe with his dick in his hand.
Bob,
My appologies to the "Blow in a straw" crowd if they find the word Crippled offensive. I was using the word in a more general term which may include those physically, spiritually and socially disadvantaged.
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John aka BarneyF
Don't sell yourself short, your brother is a golf architect and you must have been exposed to many of the same influences. Plus you've not hidden your great love and admiration for the artistry of Tom Fazio. Surely you must know a great deal about golf design...although I must admit your love TF and your last post has painted a disturbing picture in my mind.
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Seth Raynor couldn't hit his posterior with both hands and he seemed to have a pretty decent grasp of golf design :).
John, your idea that anyone not crippled or old ought to be able to break 85 on a 6800 yard track is sheer nonsense. You are grossly underestimating the skill level necessary to strike a golf ball.
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Gib,
Lets break down shooting 85...13 bogeys and 5 pars...you're right that does take an unusual amount to talent that I admit I have not found the skill to muster on at least one occasion this year. And don't think it doesn't hurt to admit that in public. It may not surprise you that sometimes during the course of a round I have somewhat of a mental breakdown from which there is little chance of recovery. This weakness of mine causes me much pain but I do know that it is impossible to appreciate the architecture of a course while stringing bogeys doubles and triples. This brings me to my point that I don't believe anyone shooting over 85 on a given day can appreciate the subtleness of a great design.
Gib the only thing I hate more than shooting a bad round of golf is admitting I was wrong...I have evaluated my many rounds this year and am willing to lower my standard from 6800 yds to 6600 yds.
On a course of 6600 yds with bent grass fairways that play firm and fast a golfer that carries a driver 210 yds hard and low will hit 9 iron or wedge to at least 4 par fours and all 4 par fives. Lets hope a passioned golfer can par at least 1/2 of those holes. I think paring one par three out of four is a reasonable expectation for an young quadraped so now we have our 5 pars we need to shoot 85. Controlling the double bogeys you say...thats the rub. I will allow one double per round but I also expect one save per round...still at 85.
Thanks for clueing me in on the revised yardage.
JakaB
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Dick- That is so funny that you associated him with the terrorists. That was what I was thinking prior to reading your reply. Now, I find that it is John's attitude that mimic's or mirrors the arabs that thought the mousad had flown the planes into the WTC. Based on no facts just the limited knowledge that there the ones that are smart enough to do it just to blame the arabs and get the world on thier side.
I will recount a story from the holocaust; when a young boy in a camp asked the oldman why he was thanking god. The response was that he was thanking god for not making him like them.
But you must admit that if people thought like John there would be plenty of weekend tee times and fees wouldn't be outa sight.
But there wouldn't be much else. So I thank god that I am not like him. But I guess I was too lazy to learn how to write like him. ::)
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Gib:
Why is it I always seem to agree with you? Shooting better than 85 is, according to Nor.Cal Golf Asociation statistics, a very difficult thing to do. Keeping up with one's stated handicap is just as tough. Ignoring for a moment the 13 handicappers, does anyone have have any idea of the substantial difference in posted scores in qualifying for the State amateur and the claimed level of competence of the contestants?
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I don't know which post it was in but on one of these threads JakaB, BarnyF, aka John, whatever, made a remark that has to win the alltime GCA award.
Something like; ....when the reformation comes some future architectural addict might be looking at an aerial and mistake the fat ass for the Principal's Nose...!
That one has to take the alltime cake! I assume that's only if the aerial is not directly overhead and the fat ass happens to be wearing white trousers and a green shirt that day, right Barn?
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JakaB:
I have been in the golf business for +20 years and most people of what I have been exposed to by way of
vanilla variety architects, golf pros, commercial people,
certainly operators, and supers do not understand or
appreciate stategy. It takes a student of it to apprerciate
it. You shouldn't be dismayed or surprised. Political correctness aside in language choices I agree with you.
What I love most about all you GCA amigos out there is you all appreciate strategy.
Merry Christmas to all!!!!!!
appreciate
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JakaB (or what ever incarnation you happen to be channeling today),
First off, the object of your derision has never failed to break 85 when I have played with him . . . my money is on the Principal's Nose when you two Sumos square-off.
And with the exception of Ron Forse or DeVries, nobody I have ever met can pick apart the minute details of a golf course as quickly and completely as he can.
I'm glad to see you have found at least partial contrition for your remarks on the Pelican Hill thread - perhaps the holiday spirit has even penetrated the psyche of our resident reclusive eccentric.
Perhaps after the reformation, hard-working guys like your brother will get Pelican Hill projects instead of having them handed to Fazio or Jack.
It's a good thing we got a self-description too - especially because you are coming west. I could never have found you at baggage claim looking for a Richard Gere (hopefully sans gerbile).
BTW, because everybody knows the identity of you and your esteemed brother, why not just come out of the closet? You've been sitting in the corner of the Treehouse with a bag over your head for long enough.
Now, back to business: I continue to have a difficult time following your logic when you maintain someone cannot grasp the strategic content of a golf course when shooting over 85.
Personally, my scores from this year ranged from 65 to 89. The 89 at Kapalua Plantation (a bit windy) was only because a snap hook on the 18th hit a hazard stake and kicked back into the fairway. I shot 86 at Cypress Point too! Huckaby and Berhardt were there to see it. I shot 85 at Garden City with Patrick Mucci - including 2 absolute shanks.
Now, is that a reasonable measurement of my skill level? Of course not! But I guarantee you that I was able evaluate the strategies of those courses every bit as well on a miserable day as on a good one.
Sometimes being a really excellent player can work against you. Look at Jack Nicklaus. The insanity of his early designs can be blamed directly on his inability to grasp how the rest of us mortals play golf.
Even Todd Eckenrode makes mistakes. There is a green at Shadow Lakes than cannot be hit with more than an 8-iron. But for the vast majority - even from the regular tees - the shot requires at least a mid-iron.
When I asked him about it, he admitted that he visualized the shot from his perspective. Except Todd is about a plus-2.
Break 85 you say? How is an average golfer going to even break 90 consistently on a golf course that demands aerial approaches? Many modern designs leave only a tiny entrance between the greensite bunkers - barely enough room for two players walking abreast to enter the green.
You "allow" for one double-bogey a round? Get on the wrong side of the gun on some of those holes from the "Long and Penal" era, and double looks to be a good score.
BTW, the regular tees on Olympic's Lake Course are 6400 yards. That is 200 yards less than your revised length. Let's see your 12 handicap shoot 84 there the first time. I'll bet you dinner at Postrio . . . . . We can try it the next day at California CC too. That's about the same yardage. . . . . oh, so are the regular tees at Spyglass.
Your point should not be an indictment of golfers who lack your sterling ;) golf abilities, but of those architects who refuse (or lack the talent) to design holes with enough strategic flexibility to do what Macdonald did at NGLA.
Neither Tillie, Raynor or MacKenzie could break 85 consistently. Using your measuring stick, they were incapable of visualizing proper strategy.
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???I have had the pleasure of playing golf with three of the most intelligent men one could ever possibly wish to meet. Not one of those men could break 90. Not through physical limitations, or laziness or advanced age, it is just that they don't have the inherent ability to do better.
It has caused them no end of frustration, but they still love the game. One is a medical nuclear scientist. His dearest wish is to break 90. He plays off a 23 handicap and probably won't get much better.
My mate Dick Daley has said it much better than I, but at the end of it, why didn't you suggest everyone could break 80?
One of the many joys of golf, is the handicap system which gives EVERYONE a chance to compete on level terms, with the added bonus that one gets to meet and play with people from disparate backgrounds and sporting ability- from scratch to 27 handicaps.
The three gentlemen I have referred would love to play off a 12 handicap but it will never happen, and I will never think the lesser of them for their lack of competence out on the golf course.
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;D Hallelujah! If taking a shot from BarnyF'nJohn finally got my good Aussie pal Duffy to post here, then have another go JakaB cause it is worth it. ::) Now if we can draw Micheal out on more of his Pacific Rim golf experiences, that would be a real triumph. 8)
Thanks Adam and Gib also for a vote of support for us perennial hackers who never loose hope that next year we will finally break __???
But, not to be greatly disturbed with BarnyF for some of his malapert scribes, as he has some provacatively interesting observations from his side of the mirror from time to time. :-/ And besides, he has invited me to enjoy/experience a round with him sometime when passing through Indiana. Although I might be compelled to register my intended movements with the State authorities prior to the tee time, should I go missing. :o
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Potential is a burden that the crippled, old or uncoordinated do not have to carry. I envy the fortunate nature each must use in approaching a round of golf. The pure joy one must get from knowing there is little hope a playing a good round can only be exhilirating. The humor of a topped shot, chunked wedge or shank shared amongst friends is one of lifes great pleasures....and doing it time after time just never gets old. I have no disdain for the happy hackers...they have fun on the course and go home to greatful wives, respectful children and are looked upon by a loving God. They are everything we all could be with minimal effort and some really good drugs. The sad fact is that the Devil lives to exploit potential...those who have it know the evils...pity the man who has had every opportunity in life and meets the minimums of every goal...pity the half hearted husband...the absent father...the sandbagging golfer who uses a handicap as an excuse not to practice. Pity the critic for he has the most potential of all...the potential to see what they could never achieve...the potential to destroy what they could never create...the potential to find happiness in their lonely tears.
Merry Christmas!!!
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JakaB, and BarnyF'nJohn,
Are you deeply into Bertrand Russell? You got pathos like oats... :-/
"Extreme hopes are born of extreme misery." -- Bertrand Russell
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R.J.,
Sadly since Bertrand Russell never knew his father and did not respect either the Sacrament of Marriage or Catholicism in general I have little respect for his opinions. I would have loved to have been at the gates of Heaven when St. Paul beat the holy crap out of him and cast his old ass into Hell. Never twist the words of a Saint for monetary gains or the fruits of obtuse popularity.
You must make Indiana part of your agenda for next summer...I feel my golfing window slowly closing and need to cherish whatever breaths of fresh air might seep in.
JakaB
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I'll go so far as to say that JAKAB is 180 degrees wrong on this point too.
It is the mere fact that we hacks can't hit the strategic spot on a golf hole that makes us learn, and know, exactly where it is. I hate the dreaded straight ball because it means i'll be too far left of my desired line. But you'd better believe I know where the archie want's me even before I've seen the next landing area. My first two rounds at PH were a 95 from the whites and today, a 94 from the blues in a gale. I thought of you John and how wrong you are and it made me happy. I also forgive you for your sins and do enjoy your perspective. It always puts things in such a clear light. :-*
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Johnny
I suffer from all three - I hate to practice, I have a wooden leg and although I'm still pretty and have very
little grey, I am definently old. You sound extremely confident in your game. Playing everyday on a quite difficult VN course has no doubt honed your ball striking and confidence. Would you accept a challenge from someone who hovers around 85 - 50% below and 50% above? I think this is reasonable especially considering your decided skill advantage - no handicaps, I'll pick a legitimate course that neither one of us has ever played, we'll play with clubs supplied by an independent third party and those clubs must be pre-1960. And as far as the final criteria all I'll say is I hope you can hold your liquor. But before we proceed you must come out of the closet. Talk is cheap, especially when hiding behind an alias.
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Taking a page from the great Mike Duffy, I too have a foindess in my heart for the under-skilled, no matter the digit of the handicap.
For me, the inspriation came from a Charles "Avo" Remusat. A hard-lined, WWII veteran, with a fused back of some 5'6'' tall.
I was there the first time Avo broke 90, and it is a day I will long remember. I felt a certain angst having to hand over my hard earned money to this nemesis of mine, a sort of non-stop talking magpie whose one-liners echoed ln my head like a myna bird.
I wouldn't sell the memory of that experience, ever.
The first time I was taken to meet Avo at Brookside Golf Course, I was simply told, "and then there is Avo....my best advice is to stay away from him. He can be brutal."
That advice was short lived as Avo was indeed exactly as mentioned, but he was the person you most enjoyed being out there with because the dialog as well as the humor was unforgettable. His golf game was a 28, but his talk and humor was a +2.
Charles "Avo" Remusat could create more strategy off of the tee better then most golf architects of today. How many guys do you know that could get away with side-splitting comments he could make in the middle of a backswing?
The fact is it made you concentrate harder off of the tee, and even a stadium full of people chanting "Darr-ell!!!" while doing the wave couldn't make you lose the concentration Avo unknowingly helped you to develop.
I can't begin to describe how I felt when I saw his lifeless body in his casket. For me, my golf game had lost one of it's most colorful characters. I still yearn for that same humor and contempt today.
John, how many low-handicapped/single digits do you know that have created so many lasting memories that have made the game such a powerful force in your life?
For a person of such knowledgable verse, (Meaning the ability of how to properly write text) it doesn't seem like many.
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Tommy,
Off the subject, but you used to play at brroside in Pasadena?
The shorter of the two tracks I always felt was one of the most fun golf courses I ever played - perfect for the players who cannot measure up to John's standards.
We snuck on about a million times and even though someof my fraternity brother were 90 shooters, the wild green complexes and twitchy approach shots kept it interesting for everyone.
Maybe Barny has a point though. Courses like Winged Foot West are so long, vicious, brutal and just plain hard that a 16 handicapper would be hard pressed to even visualize the shots required.
Plus, it is tough to concentrate when bleeding from the ears - which out there occurs by the 4th hole.
However, except for extreme cases like that, Barny is orbiting Neptune on this issue.
My best friend on the planet is a 14. We met a Billy Caspar Golf Camp at the age of 11 and have played at least twice a month ever since.
Try as he might, he cannot get into single digits - and has not since we were teenagers. Yeah, he very occasionally breaks 80, but he more often shoots between 85 and 90.
He can pick apart a golf course rather well - but having been a caddy at Cypress Point all through high school might have helped.
So, I guess I'll give him a call this afternoon and let him know we won't be playing together anymore because JakaB Kavanaugh says he is not good enough to be on a golf course.
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Gib,
Brookside #2 was where I first really started PLAYING the game. It was here that I learned that golf was indeed a challenge no matter how good or bad you were, it was a total personal challenge, which is what makes you keep comig back for more.
We played there every Saturday at daybreak, and it is also where I learned the tmeaning of the terms Bingo, Bango, Bongo; Nassau and Press.
But I have news for you. Brookside #2 is still a lot of fun to play and pretty challenging no matter the handicap. What would you expect for BB Jr. with maybe a bit of help from A.W. Tillinghast? I last played there in a scramble about two years ago where some of my partners were three actual Tuskeggee Airmen! They were a blast, and believe it or not, only one of them could break 90, and I would surely enjoy playing another round with them anytime!
It's amazing how many colorful, intelligent, and entertaining people that you can find at a golf course no matter what their abilities. I guess that is the price you pay when you choose to play only exclusively with all-knowledgable/highly-skilled players that are perfect specimans of human beings.
I have my faults, each and everyone of them and I still manage to get a game or two.
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Chris,
Gee, that was clever retort. Did it take you all morning to conjure that up, or was it just a moment of spontaneous brilliance?
JakaB actually raises an interesting question with this post and if everyone thought it was drivel, posted by a half-wit with a mental complex there would hardly be this many responses.
Personally, I think the guy is a genius - and he must know at least a bit about architecture because I'm told his brother is rather well thought of.
In truth - even though he pisses me off to no end at times - our Treehouse eccentric certainly brings a unique perspective and one I get an enormous kick out of reading.
I'd bet a dollar what when the lurking populace sees the last post was made by JakaB-Barnyf-Kavanaugh, the amount of views rises dramatically.
I don't think you or I can make the same claim.
PS: John, I still think your viewpoint is all wet, but I still loved reading it.
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Gib,
I've got to agree with you.
JakaB, Barny, John, whatever's posts are always unique and nearly as often entertaining. The above post concerning potential could be a nominee for post of the year. Hilarious!
Barny, don't ever let 'em medicate ya!
Merry Christmas
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Gib, well said.
If I ever get that chance of a round with Barnyf'nJakabeingJohn, I'm going to hit the 19th hole very heavily, then have Fr. Kavanaugh hear my confession and hard bargain the absolution and then have him try to explain the meaning of the whole thing in simple enough terms even I might be able to understand... agnostic that I am... ??? really :-/
so many questions, so few answers...
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From the moment BarnyF posted about renditions of Barry Manilow's "Mandy" through the sphincter-horn, I had a pretty good idea that he might offer a contrasting, or at least interesting, view on certain topics. So far he hasn't disappointed.
Though I am more often on the high side of 85, rather than the low, I'm pretty sure I'm not lazy, crippled, or old. Although
my definition of "old" is always subject to change. Keep
the posts comin', Barn. "You came and you gave without takin'........"
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Once again, The Brain hits the problem on the screws. It's the perceived lack of credibility when posting in such an obtuse fashion that causes the avid reader to not know his author.
The fact that most of us here know what so and ao would like or dislike is directly attributed to our understanding of what thier personal prefernces are and that is gained thru this forum.
From reading BarneyF I am tainted from numerous outlandish comments, when it became jakab I knew who it was from the ability to turn a sentence. but thought there was modecome of real interest in the DG. But it would appear that like Captain J.T. Kirk he battles 'the enemy within'. ::)
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Rich,
Thanks for clarifying my point. Poetry and Golf Architecture are both art forms to be enjoyed by the masses that suits either an individuals intelect or game. I no more want to deny a tribute to a dead child written in verse that brings comfort to a grieving mother than I want to deny a 200 yd drive that brings joy to a hack. How many of us read the tributes to the dead that families have printed in the local paper. Some are moving...some even bring a tear if the events are tragic or the child young...these are memories...emotion tangled amongst ryming words....not poetry...not the stuff of legends. How many of us cheer for our friends who hit the shot they have dreamed of for months....beautiful arcing drives...soft landing approaches...these are golf shots...luck...not strategy. The grieving mother finds words of comfort...not poetry. The hack finds a golf shot not a strategic subtlety. Neither should be denied but neither stands the test of time.
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John,
I'd like to raise the opposite point.
My sense is that players of the highest class are often less cognizant of the strategy of a given hole than the middle handicapper.
I remember reading an account in DG about Freddie Couples playing the Redan 6th at Shinnecock.
Every time I come to that hole, my posterior puckers. Mortals have to invent and execute a perfectly struck shot to get it anywhere within 2 putt distance.
Hard 5-iron and hope it bites? 4-iron to the right front and pray it releases . . . . but not too much. Or maybe chase a bunt 3-iron up the slope and try to gauge the distance?
Hitting the green is an enormous victory. The intricate strategies presented by that hole are as maddening for me as for anyone save complete hackers.
Yet Freddie just takes an 8-iron and hits a moon ball to 3 feet. Strategy? What strategy?
Vijay hits a 7-iron into 14 at TOC?
How can those guys even envision or understand the intricate and subtle elements of the Golden Age architects when their orientation is to play the power game - and the power game only? ???
An 85+ shooter has to visualize how the ball rolls along the ground far more often than Tom Huckaby or Brains, who hit towering 1-irons and can often ignore the arrangement of hazards.
I would agree that you must understand the mind of the poet to grasp the sentiment, but what score you shoot often has nothing to do with it.
Raynor was not crippled or old, and given that he worked himself to death, certainly not lazy. Yet he played golf once a year.
Tillie and Mackenzie were indifferent players at best.
Most of us could spot them 4 a side, even playing with wooden shafts. But defeating the architect who is a poor player and defeating a golf course like Winged Foot or S.F. Club are two different things.
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JakaB,
The greatest golfers of today don't seem to be challenged by much. Quite frankly, I don't think it is possible to present them, as a group, with any type of strategy that they could not overcome unless you think length, narrowness or high rough qualify.
You said " ....I only believe the great golfers of today are challenged by subtlety....subtlety that is revealed by talent...and exposed through execution." What do you mean by this? Can you offer some examples?
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I've given a lot of thought about what would challenge these guys today.
Small greens with wild undulations are impractical and large greens segmented into quadrants by ridges or swales would ultimately encourage more of the kind of dart throwing these guys do already.
The answer is putting surfaces that slope away with contouring in front of the green complex that demands the golfer use judgement, creativity and feel instead of playing like a robot with a yardage book.
Justin Leonard and Corey Pavin would win quite a few more tournaments, that is for certain.
We are in danger of breeding a generation of golfers without a Paul Runyan - which seems wrong on so many different levels.
I disagree that the Redan at Shinnecock is outdated - it only seems so for a few of the tour players - certainly not the vast majority of mortals.
By the way, that is one of the original Seth Raynor holes at Shinnecock Hills. If you want to know more, you can buy our book on July 15th ;)
Slope some greens away, make them play the ground game and even the crippled, old and lazy will have as much relative (Note: RELATIVE) challenge as the PGA tough guys.
Merry X-mas, off to a party!
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SoCal brethren, do NOT get me started on Brookside... that place has as much sentimental value to me as "Wind and Wuthering" by certain musical geniuses we cherish in common. I learned the game there... it was among the first "big courses" I ever played... played countless high school matches there... SoCal junior tourneys... your talking one of my homes, that and Griffith Park.
I too dig the #2 course, even as it is today and it was pretty watered down from "the old days" when I last saw it 3 years ago. #1 is still a damn good test, as always.
Breaks my heart to see cars parked on it... I'm gonna have to close my eyes during the Rose Bowl.
As for scores around 85, I know too many players who never approach that to hold it as a standard.
TH
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Yikes! I just read this all the way through and Gib, yeegads, using me as an example of good golf... well... those who played with me at Yale, Shinnecock, NGLA or others of these outings are likely laughing at that! Towering 1-irons and I have as much in common as me and skinnyness. I did have the one on 11 at Cypress with you but that is HUGELY the exception and not the rule.
I do appreciate the thought, though. As I get worse at this game, I admit I still have some pride... though it is lessening by the day!
And I will take it down a notch, and admit that often times strategy is less apparent to me as it is to my Dad, who is a 30 hdcp. at best, and plays to his "strengths" better than any man on this earth. That is, he never met a carry longer than his 150 yard comfort zone that he cared to try, and he can "tack" his way around a golf hole with uncanny thought. Strategies do occur to him that I never deal with....
Thus the very good points above ring true to me... it surely isn't the better golfers who see all the strategy a golf hole provides.
I can imagine my Dad on 16 at Cypress... it would kill him, and he'd likely donate one to the ocean just to say he tried on that once in a life-time hole, but to win the match hell yes he'd go left... He'd likely hit his "trusty" 7iron 3 times, one putt, and still win the hole!
TH
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JakaB,
As I asked in an earlier post, can you please explain what you mean by this statement? Use an example to illustrate if you care to.
...."I only believe the great golfers of today are challenged by subtlety....subtlety that is revealed by talent...and exposed through execution".
Also:
...."It will be Talent and Execution that proves the greatest courses of all time are being built as we speak"
Q: What are todays builders doing that makes you feel this way? Are you talking technology or are there some newly discovered strategies in use today? Please elaborate.
Thanks
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Jim,
I think 11, 12 and 13 at Augusta best shows how subtlety has been revealed through talent and execution. I don't think we would know how great those holes are if every year the best in the game didn't reveal the subtleties of the holes during the Masters. The drive and approach on 11 might be compared to so many other holes if not for what we have witnessed. Why is 12 one of the greatest and most difficult par threes in the world...my only explanation is the wind as it is shaped by the trees...was this by design or just luck..it really doesn't matter...its just great. Tiger worked during the off season just to hit a high 3 wood hook for 13 tee...how subtle is that....we of average games do not see these things on one visit with our feeble strokes...it has been revealed to us through talent and execution. I grow tired of this thread but if you want more elaboration I can try later....thanks
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Jakab - You reminded me of my Coast Guard bootcamp days. Co. commander would call roll call prior to tha days activities. After all names called he asked for sick, lame or lazy to fall out of formation. He then had to decide if excuse legit or not and how to dispose of them. Golf course could have similar roll call prior to selection of tees about to be played and maybe add - inept.
ET
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You only have to know where the ball should land on a well struck shot to understand strategy. Usually playing gets in the way.
Most architects struggle to play well, I didn't know this was a requirement. I'll have to play more.
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This is an old post and should have died at Christmas like so many dreams of forgotten children...So many of us are not the best fathers, friends or husbands that we could be...this is because of the work it takes to be successful in very difficult endevours which includes golf or the above. Everyone can be a better father with greater sacrifice and patience...Everyone can be a better husband through displays of comprimize which border on castration...just as everyone can be a better golfer through hours of short game practice. Maybe its not laziness that prevents us from reaching our potential...maybe its just priorities. I could lose forty pounds shoot less craps and rub my wife's feet....and I would be a better golfer and husband...but baby my choice is a YO, an occasional good round and a heart clogging steak...its what makes me proud to be an American.
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JakaB,
I too, enjoy knarling on dead animal carcass. In fact there is nothing like it, especially when it is cooked by Ruth's Chris.
However, me being of a cippled, lazy. and old body and mind, I'm more then willing to face the music. You need to do this if you are going to be my Sancho Panza. I need to trust you.
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I can't believe its a year later and I'm still pissed off...but isn't it funny that I know if I just work on my short game and don't over swing...I'll be a happy man this time next year.
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JakaB:
Shoot 85 on a 6800 yard golf course? You’ve got to be kidding. A very large percentage of people playing the game can’t do that and never will. Indeed, a very large percentage can’t break 100, even on a 6200 yard course!
The most fun I’ve ever had playing with such a person was Frank Feely, the former City Manager of Dublin. Even 15 years ago Frank could barely hit his drives 150 yards. But, his ability to enjoy playing the game was unsurpassed and he knew far more than your average Joe about golf architecture. Even better, he was Irish enough to play the first 18 holes in three hours……so he could spend three more on #19.
Too bad most Americans haven’t mastered that fine art.
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JakaB(Barney/John)
Did you ever stop to think there may be people who play the game just for the sheer enjoyment of being outdoors, with friends and doing something enjoyable.
That there may be people who don't have the chance or the time to spend a month on the range learning to hit a hard fade or simply have other commitments that don't let them spend 3 hours a week putting.
I could care less what someone's hadicap is. If they keep up the pace, respect the game, its traditions and its rules. If they are enjoyable to be with then they can join my group any day.
Fairways and Greens,
Dave
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I can't remember if I was to crippled, lazy or old to respond to this post a year ago.
Can't I go for the trifecta? How about lazy, crippled and old? I'd give all three credit for my sometimes inability to break 85, and my renewed love for the game.
JakaB wrote:
I would have loved to have been at the gates of Heaven when St. Paul beat the holy crap out of [Bertrand Russell] and cast his old ass into Hell. Never twist the words of a Saint for monetary gains or the fruits of obtuse popularity.
Bertrand Russell wrote:
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.
Dan King
"The only exercise I get it when I take the studs out of one shirt and put them in another."
--Ring Lardner Jnr.
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If you are not old or crippled all you have to do is go out to the range for a month...learn how to hit a hard fade...putt and chip for an hour three days a week...and you got it. Breaking 85....what an accomplishment for a grown man.
JakaB,
I agree and I need some help. As a 9 handicap, I am on the fringe of acceptability. Thus can you help put me over the edge.
1. Go to the range for a month. JakaB can you come take care of my 2 boys for that month?
2. Chip for an hour three days a week. JakaB could you purchase some land for me in Manhattan so that I can chip? An 1/4 acre should only cost a few million. :o
Thanks
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I paid Dr. Katz a real life visit today...but he was in a meeting..It can be scary meeting people who have read some of this crap. My point was that I will not work on my short game and I will continue to over swing...thus resulting in being pissed off again this time next year. I think I might enjoy being happy but I doubt that I would put forth the effort to maintain...so I bought a book on Texas Holdem and look forward to a few good hits on the river.
Mike,
A nine handicap living in Manhattan with two children is impressive....The city dweller does not understand the killing boredom of seeking adventure in a simply perfect life...When time stops being precious and becomes only a burden preventing sleep...working on your short game seems as natural as eating....here in lies the sadness of the bulemic golfer...time, time and more time wasted on idle chit chat regurgitating the same topics when I could be learning to chip and putt...you've got to be sick to know what you need...have the time a resources to achieve it...and still never break the same old habits....just no excuses out here in the wide open spaces.