Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Evan_Green on January 03, 2003, 08:29:41 PM
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I would say that the most difficult opener I have ever played was #1 at Winged Foot West- however I wouldnt argue with someone who said #1 at Pebble Beach or St Andrews simply for the opinions of others' thoughts on the most difficult start in golf?
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Let me try that message again:
I would say that the most difficult opener I have ever played was #1 at Winged Foot West- however I wouldnt argue with someone who said #1 at Pebble Beach or St Andrews simply for the INTIMIDATION FACTOR OF THE GALLERY OF SPECTATORS. I WOULD LIKE THE opinions of others' thoughts on the most difficult start in golf?
I would say that the most difficult opener I have ever played was #1 at Winged Foot West- however I wouldnt argue with someone who said #1 at Pebble Beach or St Andrews simply for the opinions of others' thoughts on the most difficult start in golf?
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The opener at Spyglass Hill is a tough par, even for the big boys. In 2000, the 5 or six pro's I witnessed play the hole had but one or two pars. The downhill fairway can be difficult to handle for the average golfer, the orientation of the green and the subtle slopes make it very hard on everybody.
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Evan,
I would say the hardest opening tee ball: Hoylake with OB hard right and clubhouse left - talk about nervy :o
Hardest approach: Pine Valley with disaster known to be everywhere if you've played the hole before
Hardest green to finally :-/ hole out: Oakmont
Hardest overall? Hard to argue with WFW but Chicago GC deserves consideration too even though I assume the Walker Cuppers can at least reach it in regulation, unlike 99.99% of amateurs.
Historically, Yale's 1st must have been staggeringly tough when it opened.
For a modern opener, Doak's 6 million yard long 1st at Wilderness Valley makes for a tough start, especially after the long cart ride away from the clubhouse.
Cheers,
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Oh...a LOT of really, really bad things can happen along the way to the sensory-overloaded golfer on the first hole at Sand Hills. Just picking a line off the tee, then trying to figure out where to lay up to the narrowing fairway, and then trying to hit the spiraling greensite between a minefield of yawning chasms of sand is quite the wake-up call.
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What about No. 1 at Oak Tree? It's a long par-four with an approach shot to a slanting green that is blocked by a tree.
No. 1 at the Prince course is impossible: a long carry from a downhill lie over a lake to a green with little depth.
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I don't slice it often, but for those who do, the first at Prestwick has got to be nerve-wracking, especially with a train sitting on the tracks waiting to be hit by an errant shot!
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I have to agree with Ran that the 1st at Chicago (a long par 4) is difficult. Follow that up with #2-3-4 and its a very hard opening.
I'll throw in the 1st at Shinnecock especially into the wind as one of the hardest.
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Most difficult opening tee shot: 1st at Secession, a very long carry over the marsh.
Most difficult holes: 1st at The Prince Course (highest "x" factor), 1st at Crystal Downs
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Let the difficulty factor be dictated by the stroke handicap (even if that application is mis-applied). What course starts with the number 1 handicap hole? Generically, that has to be murder on a player throwing him, ostensively, the hardest hole before he is warmed up. Although I am sure there are others, the opener at Toftrees at Penn State comes to mind.
JC
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Come to think of it #1 at Pasatiempo isnt an easy opener either- its a difficult drive to keep it between the driving range on the left and the treeline down the right- The green isnt easy either nor is the 460 yardage of the hole (although downhill)
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Evan -
I agree with you that the opening hole at Pasa being a difficult 4-shotter.
Many have written that its current set-up is a disappointment compared to when it played as a longer par-5. You are right that the tee shot is not easy with the bowling alley effect caused by the trees (we could start a thread on the trees at Pasa like the thread at Olympic Lake) into the prevailing wind. Coupled with a singular tree well short and right of the green, the well-bunkered and small green (a green that is probably too small for a medium to long iron approach shot) allows for an aerial or ground approach, giving options to the golfer. I have more fear for #1 then #2 ...
http://www.pasatiempo.com/home/modules.php?name=Golf&file=shawntour
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I concur with Mr. Doak, Secession is a tough opener. For someone who has never played there especially. You think you only have a sliver of fairway to hit, but in actuality you have a lot of room. A few other tough openers:
Oak Hill - number one handicap hole on the course
Praire Dunes - playing into the wind a tough dog leg
I've always had a tough time off the first at Long Cove. Dye's lengthly bunker on the right always seems to get me.
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I don't regard the 1st hole at Secession as just a tough opener. It's flat out the worst opening hole in golf. Maybe okay as the 14th hole, but terrible to get a round started.
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Evan Green,
I think there are several types of "difficult"
Surely, the first hole at Prestwick is difficult, for a variety of reasons, but, I'll birdie that hole far more often than I would birdie the first hole at WFW. On the other hand, I'll probably make more double bogies and higher at Prestwick than I will at WFW.
Any opening hole with out-of-bounds or significant water in play is difficult.
In medal play, the short first hole at NGLA can be a birdie or a triple bogie.
First holes that focus the gallery, players and staff on a golfer create additional difficulties. The first at Merion, at lunch time, is one of the most intimidating, as is the first at Riviera, Bethpage Black and many others meeting the above criteria.
Each golfer also has their own criteria for establishing difficulty. A fader or Slicer won't like Prestwick, Quaker Ridge and others with dire consequences left. A pull slicer sure won't like Plainfield or Ridgewood's west nine starting hole.
Added to the mix are courses with no range, or a far removed range, where the golfer hasn't had a chance to warm up, especially at a course with a recognized, difficult first hole.
Lastly, the brain and negative thoughts contribute to difficulty. When a fellow golfer recounts how he made a 9 on such and such hole a month ago, and gives you a blow by blow of the blowout, that bit of information may overload the golfers mind, leading to further disaster.
Difficult holes are determined by the golfers particular game, their headset, the position of hazards/obstacles/boundaries, and their dislike of the spotlight.
Once it's in the air (assuming it gets there) there's nothing you can do, so Think POSITIVE, Take dead aim, and rip it.
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Sounds like Mr Weiman has been in the marsh before on #1 at Secession. I have talked to many a player who hates that hole because they can't hit it 200 yds to carry the marsh, that doesnt make it a bad hole. Tough tee shot, tough 2nd shot (that pot bunker in front of the green is tough to get out). Go right or long and you are in the marsh......an all around good opener. Not the best hole at Secession by a long shot, but a good opener (especially when putting green is packed and all eyes are on you)
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#1 at the Prince. Difficult tee shot and then a harder approach. Unless you're playing at the "local" rate, you're then wondering if all that dough you just spent might have been better spent learning to windsurf. Both are aggravating but only one has girls in bikinis in the vicinity.
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Secession #1 is very tough when the tide is in. When it is out, there is no need to carry the hazard. It is not uncommon to see birdies made from the hazard. Over-all a bad hole.
Hard to argue with Pine Valley and Oakmont opening holes.
#1 at Elk River is a very long par four fronted by a very deep bunker and heavy rough right. It is the #1 handicap hole on the course.
The first at National in Pinehurst is one of the toughest and worst opening holes I've seen. Absolutley no place to miss the green.
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Toughest hole to start a tournament on in my experience is Oakmont's #1--unless you're lucky enough to start on #10.
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rpurd:
My experience at Secession is limited to only one visit, but it included one of the best caddies I've ever had. After a nice warmup, we went to the first tee where I took one look and thought it was the worst opening hole I'd ever seen.
The caddy mentioned that many people felt the same way and advised hitting a three wood to avoid hitting through the fairway. Good call. I put it right in the middle of the fairway.
I enjoyed the course as a whole, but still think #1 is awful, almost beyond belief.
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Number 1 at Prairie Dunes is up there, from the back tee it plays close to 440 as a dogleg left, (the dogleg itself adds 25-30 yards) Great green complex with basically 4 very small greens within one. Normally plays into a good breeze.
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Tom Doak:
I must agree, No1 at the Princes Course on Kauai is probably the best opening hole in golf.
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This coming saturday many from this board will see one of the more difficult opening holes -- Alpine CC. Very demanding second shot to an elevetad green. Really good start to the course.
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No. 1 at the Prince also has my vote. You can easily lose two balls within two minutes. I lost only one.
(http://www.douglass.co.uk/webpromote/celebs/oops_index.htm)
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John Lovito,
# 1 was the original 17th hole,
and # 3 was the original 1st hole.
I've never understood the change.
Making people drive in their car 1/2 mile to 1 mile to get to the current first tee, and then back from the current 18th green to the clubhouse is cumbersome at best. While both nines currently return to the satellite clubhouse, I liked AWT's play of the golf course better.
But, my vote has been declared null and void.
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Patrick:
Your vote has been declared null and void?
What do you mean by that?
Do I need to bring my 45 Magnum up there to Alpine? If so just let me know.
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:)I agree with an earlier respondent on the 1st at Hoylake, but what about the 1st at Muirfield (Open conditions or not)?
Spyglass and Kingston Heath are also beauties.
But, is this really a good topic? What about simply the best opening hole (chance of a birdie, speed up play, sporty 19th in a match???).
Why do you want really hard holes to start a course? I think the past practice, in particular with some of the great classic courses, is the short par 4!! This allows a quick start to the round, the chance of a birdie but also a bogey or worse if you get carried away.
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I think a stern first hole sets the tone for the rest of the course. Name one really great course that has a pushover first? Ooops, dumb question, I am sure there are dozens, but nevertheless with a tough one to start you know the game is on.
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Bob Huntley,
GCGC.
Others might include NGLA, Seminole, Boca Rio, Riviera,
Baltusrol Upper and Lower, St. Andrews, Ridgewood, Shinnecock, Turnberry, Maidstone, etc., etc..
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Aronimink's #1 looks like a pretty stern opener. It plays to about 420, running down to a hollow and then gradually back up to the green. A long, carefully placed drive appears imperative in order to score well. As Michael Fay puts it "par is a really good number on the first at Aronimink." Any thoughts? I have not played the course yet.
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Craig Rokke,
Par should pick up a shot on the field in an amateur event.
It's a tough starting hole.
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I am shocked 8) at this "Weinman" guys comments......Maybe he should change his name to "Weinie"....because any idiot who thinks #1 at Secession is a "Terrible" hole, is obviously a complete bafoon!!!!
Sounds like Mr Weiman has been in the marsh before on #1 at Secession. I have talked to many a player who hates that hole because they can't hit it 200 yds to carry the marsh, that doesnt make it a bad hole. Tough tee shot, tough 2nd shot (that pot bunker in front of the green is tough to get out). Go right or long and you are in the marsh......an all around good opener. Not the best hole at Secession by a long shot, but a good opener (especially when putting green is packed and all eyes are on you)
:o
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Berkshire Blue's monster par 3 is a very tough start.
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Top 100 guru-
Was the tone of your response to Weiman's post really necessary?
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;D Mr Weinman is certainly entitled to his own opinion(s) relative to what makes a "good" or "bad" opening hole.....I was merely pointing out that perhaps he was "too harsh" concerning #1 at Secession!! It is actually a great opening hole...one that befudles the "first-timer" to Secession. Once you have played the hole, you realize that it is not very difficult at all....Driver or 3 wood, depending on the wind, and a 9 iron to wedge second shot. It is a very intimidating first shot, that is why you just have to "Trust Your Caddie" and let it rip!!! This is a hole designed to "introduce you" to what is in store over the next 17 holes.
As for my personal attack on Mr. Weinman, when I originally made my comments, I was a first time poster here at GCA, and was not aware of how "thin-skinned" some of these folks were here....in the future, I will aim to be more candid in my comments. Mr Weinman is probably a decent guy and I am sorry I offended him.
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I'm going to throw in #1 at Plainfeild. Relatively long, with a severe sideways-sloped fairway, and a large, fast, slanted green.
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Craig Rokke:
Our friend "Top100Guru" had a couple alternatives.
First, he could have avoided an anonymous post. Why one would need to remain anonymous to express that he likes a particular golf hole is beyond me!
Second, "Top100Guru" could have simply explained WHY he thinks #1 at Secession is a good opening hole. Why waste time calling someone a "complete bafoon"? How does that advance our discussion of golf architecture?
Most likely "Top100Guru" is a person who lacks self confidence and/or doesn't yet understand that anonymous personal attacks usually do nothing more than discredit the person making them.
Let's hope this gentleman either grows up or moves on to another web site where that kind of behavior fits in better.
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Another difficult first hole that I've seen dish out some punishment to unsuspecting resort hackers is the 1st at Mt
Airy in the Poconos. A poorly conceived opener, it's a double dog leg that plays steeply uphill. In fact, it must be the equivalent of close to 600 yards, with blind 2nd shot towards
a large pond fronting the green.
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Craig;
Ahh...you beat me to the punch.
The 1st hole at Mt. Airy Resort in the Poconos is not only the most difficult opening hole I've played, it's also by far the worst!
To say it plays uphill is quite the understatement. In fact, in the winter, the hole is a ski slope running in the other direction! It's about 580 yards, double-dogleg, as you mentioned, with a BLIND pond starting about 160 yards short of the green and continuing almost to the putting surface.
If you layup, you have an absolutlely blind third of about 180 yards from a steep uphill lie without any idea of what you're firing at, yet reaching this green in two is unimaginable because it plays like about 670. There is no layup to the left.
On the right, a 5 yard wide ribbon of fairway runs around the pond and just to the right of that, the land falls off STEEPLY into 10 inch rough.
The architect managed to find a way to cut off any conceivable play, which is probably a good forewarning thing considering some of the other bizarre holes you'll be confronted with on the next 17. 3 of the 4 par threes play completely blind at distances of 220-230 from the tips, and there's also the wonderful 575 yard par five where the best play from the tee is a 7-iron.
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For sheer intimidation factor, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Royal Aberdeen. With Redanman's long backswing (maybe his bad back was acting up that day,) I'm surprised he didn't break the clubhouse window. The tees are just a few yards from the big clubhouse window, which is tinted so you have no idea who or how many are in there laughing at your swing.
Top100Loser: Always good to see someone who has such strong convictions they are willing to post them anonymously.
Dan King
"He had one peculiar weakness; he had faced death in many forms but he had never faced a dentist. The thought of dentists gave him just the same sick horror as the thought of socialism."
--H.G. Wells (Bealby)
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For sheer intimidation factor, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Royal Aberdeen. ........ Redanman's long backswing ............ The tees are just a few yards from the big clubhouse window..............tinted .............
Dan King
I believe that I have made comments quite similarly in just the vein you have mentioned on htis very site in the past. 8) I think quite bit different from Merion's aomewhat similar spot.
As for sheer difficulty, I do think with notable exceptions that architects do try a little to get you safely away from the house before molesting you. Pinehurst #6 is quite the opposite, 420 or 30 on the card, Drive 4-iron at least to a large sloped green as the hole is noticeably uphill. One of Fazio's most maligned ocurses I've always kinda liked the place (Before all the condos years ago). Even WFW #1 isn't noticeably harder. But as I said, the first usually isn't Hcp #1 or 2.
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to me the most "difficult" opening hole is defined by just that: difficulty. i prefer an opening hole where it's relatively easy to make a par and start off your round with a positive sense. the thought of bogey, or even worse, double bogey leaves a bad aftertaste. the first hole at somerset hills in nj is a 460+ dogleg right par4 that i have always considered to be one of the most difficult in golf. mike cirba: you are right about #1 at sand hills. i have played it about 50 times and it seems to get harder, not easier each time. the multitude of conditions is probably the reason. it plays different each time.
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I'm surprised that no one has put in a vote for Bethpage Red. #1 is a 465 yard par 4 whose second shot plays well longer then the yardage. Its green is not nearly as diabolical as the first at WF West but its just as tough to make a 4. Tillinghast really did have quite a few difficult first holes in his courses (Alpine #1 is a tough one too as others have mentioned and the 1st ath the Black is no easy opener) but he also threw in some easier ones like Fenway #1.
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Re: Alpine #1, on Tillie's map of the course. #1 is #1, it is not#17...I think the club may have flirted with using #3 as the start but it was not in the original plans or at least what I saw Tillie drew up in 1928..
Pat, the club is addressing some of the issues re: the clubhouse down below..We will eventually grow the 19th hole to include men's lockers or a shoe hut so it won't be so bad, but yes it isnt fun. The club members do enjoy the culture of the 19th hole though. 18 is a great finishing hole as well IMHO
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I have modified my comments above, regarding you (Mr Weinman).....so, perhaps, you will do the same???
Craig Rokke:
Our friend "Top100Guru" had a couple alternatives.
First, he could have avoided an anonymous post. Why one would need to remain anonymous to express that he likes a particular golf hole is beyond me!
Second, "Top100Guru" could have simply explained WHY he thinks #1 at Secession is a good opening hole. Why waste time calling someone a "complete bafoon"? How does that advance our discussion of golf architecture?
Most likely "Top100Guru" is a person who lacks self confidence and/or doesn't yet understand that anonymous personal attacks usually do nothing more than discredit the person making them.
Let's hope this gentleman either grows up or moves on to another web site where that kind of behavior fits in better.
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Top100Guru:
Our group has worked hard over the past several years to discourage anonymous personal attacks. It has nothing to do with anyone here being "thin skinned". Rather, it is part of our effort to elevate the quality of our golf architecture discussion and encourage more people, including golf industry personnel, to participate.
It is not uncommon for people new to GCA to conduct themselves in a manner consistent with many other Internet discussion groups where anonymous personnel attacks are standard. Fortunately, people like Craig Rokke pretty quickly speak up and make clear that such behavoir simply isn't part of the "treehouse" we are trying to develop.
None of this is to say that you can't express controversial views on golf architecture matters. The opening hole at Secession has been identified by many people as one of the worst in golf, but if you see it differently, no problem.
As for Secession, other than #1, I actually enjoyed the course, the atmosphere of the club and especially my caddy. Secession is still the only place where my caddy and I changed our mind about four times before deciding how to play a shot (somewhere on the back side) and after all that actually pulled it off. That kind of teamwork can be one of the best things in golf.
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Greetings:
Another vote for Secession as the most difficult #1 hole in golf because of that daunting tee shot. A unique hole to say the least - it does not quite fit in with the rest of the course. # 14 at Secession has an uncomfortable second shot to the green, but nothing on the order of that #1 tee shot. Actually, it is kind of neat to play your second shot off the reeds when the tide is out - once again, a unique experience. A great club with an atmosphere second to none!
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I agree with the majority of the board.......the #1 hole at Secession is great. Mr Weiman has no clue what constitutes a good or bad hole. He probably plays at a public course and his only trip to Secession was his last. What an idiot!
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Another vote for the #1 hole at Secession............what a great and tough hole. Whoever thinks that is a bad opener has no clue. He who thinks the 1st at Secession is bad or overrated probably don't like the island hole at TPC or the Road Hole. It is unique and a gem.
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Porky Pig:
Could you describe for me how #1 at Secession is a great opening hole for the man who struggles to hit 200 yard drives?
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Top100-
You and your lame alter egos should give some serious
thought into seceding from GCA and heading back to your Brittney Spears discussion group. Do you wash the grass clippings off the carts at Secession or something?
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REE
Secession is a walking only club. There are no carts. If you blow your knee out, you give up your membership.
I spent time in Scotland last summer with one of Secession's architects - Bob Walton. We talked about the design. Bob feels that the first hole was simply a mistake.
As for difficulty, even with the forced carry it is simply too short a par 4 to be considered in a 'most difficult' category.
As an alternate consider Koolau's opening hole on Oahu. Something like 600yds, a screeming downhill banked plunge, littered with 20-some bunkers, culminating in an elevated highly sloped green, all surrounded by inpenetrable jungle in which you lose your ball if you go 6 inches into. I'll bet the average stroke score at this #1 exceeds par more than the average stroke score at Secession's #1 exceeds par.
Koolau's slope from the back is 162! The USGA caps a slope at a max 155. Koolau's opening hole may be the most difficult in the world, followed by 17 more in the same category!
USG
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Jonathan:
Thanks for the note regarding Bob Walton. The tough thing for him and the club is that there isn't a real easy fix. Permitting wise I doubt you can change it. I also don't see a real easy way to re-route the course to push this hole later in the round.
Difficulty on the first hole is okay, but a forced carry opening tee shot that many people can't handle just isn't a good concept. PGA West, for example, was built to be a very tough golf course, but you don't see anything like that on the first hole. Pete takes him time to exact his punishment.
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BTW,
If you buy a cap from the pro shop at Koolau you'll have a nice logo embossed on the front and printed on the back is, "The World's Most Difficult Golf Course". Even leaving their opinion out, you would still have to seriously consider in "most difficult" discussions.
JC
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Jonathan- I realize this is nit picky but is Koolau a walkable golf course. If not the term "golf course" could be conscrewed as opinion. ;D
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Clay - I'm pretty sure it is, but don't hold me to that. It is way too hilly for me to walk, but I think the locals do. It is not a great course by any means as the forced carries start from the parking lot! But it is 18 of the hardest holes and worthy of mention under this posting topic. JC
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I will concur with Bob H. on Princeville (Prince)'s opener as being sheerly intimidating, even with a 3-wood in hand off the tee.
Koolau's opener is tough, and though it is long, 3-wood unfortunately is the play off the tee due to bunkering and pinched fairways further out.
My vote has to go to my club's opening hole, though. #1 at Wake Forest GC in WF, NC, is a 711 yard par 5. The drive is 300 yards downhill, but the final 150 is straight uphill. The drive has trees on both sides, with lateral hazards way right, so spraying isn't good. Even if you hit a good drive, most will have to lay up with a mid-to-long iron, because of the creek that crosses at 200 yards from the green. This is actually why it is not a good hole from the tips, the forced layup on a brutally long hole. Take out the creek, and it isn't so bad.
Then you have 200+ way uphill to a difficult, two-tiered green, with a bunker front left and another on the right side of the green. From 150 in, O.B. is way right, but gets closer in the closer to the green you go. Doesn't help that the cartpath is on the right side for any pushed/sliced approaches.
Yes, it is the #1 handicap hole. Par is terrific from the tips, and my one birdie ever from there is one of my highlights. 3-wood from 215 (way uphill), one-putt.
The hole is much better from the next up tees, at 622 yards. A decent drive (downhill still) leaves a good chance to clear the creek with a mid-to-long iron, leaving approxiamtely 150 uphill yards in.
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Scott - that hole does sound like a bear. JC
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Scott,
As someone who used to live in Raleigh, I agree with your assessment of Wake Forest. While others may argue that it might not be as difficult as some holes it is certainly a hole you don't want to face if you're running a short on time and scrambling to the first tee without time to warm up.
I think the creek is what makes the hole so difficult. Depending on conditions (wind, wet), you have to hit a great tee ball just to have a chance to get over the creek in two. And there's nothing more demoralizing than having to lay up your second shot on a 711 yard par five.
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Crystal Downs #1/474 yds, directional face wind, to an elevated sloping green;however,two(2) tee balls are provided by the club charter!
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How about the first at Troon's Portland course? Over 460 yards, uphill, into the prevailing wind, with OB all the way down the left side, angling behind the green as well. Yes, par 4, if that matters. The Portland is the ladies' course, for those who don't know, but don't be fooled into thinking it isn't a stern test for anyone -- it is perhaps 900 yards shorter than the championship course, but yard for yard more difficult, IMHO. A lot of those yards it gives away go into building several short 4s and 5s that lead you into temptation. And unlike the grass on the championship course where you can find your ball and make some kind of play on it, the Portland is filled with gorse, where you may see your ball, but you probably can't retrieve it and definitely can't play it.
While I'm not sure I'd argue for the Portland's first against some of the holes others have suggested here, I'd sure argue for it against that 711 yarder at WF. It doesn't sound like it requires or even encourages you to bring your best game to the tee, unless you plan to challenge that creek with your second. Even if you challenge it it isn't as though you are rewarded with an easy shot leaving a good birdie opportunity like most par 5s, it is so long you still have work left to do for a 5. For that I'm risking trees on both sides and a lateral hazard off the tee with a driver and a fairly long carry over a creek on my second? No thanks, I'll lay up and take my chances with that uphill 210 yard third, but once I do that I don't need driver off the tee and really have no pressure to even make particularly good swings at my first two shots so long as I keep them in play. Sounds like a hole that has its risk/reward equation all messed up.