Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: A_Clay_Man on December 06, 2002, 12:48:20 PM
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Of course there can be no wrong answer since it's all subjective and perhaps this thread has been done before but I don't recall it.
My answer would be the ninth at CPC. It's esthetics, elevation changes, strategic options, green contour and just about everything about it is GREAT.
What you say?
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I'd say I can live with that one!
It might be cliched also, but lil ole #16 there is kinda neat. Easy answer and won't win me any cool points, but that's ok.
I'd also like to cast a vote for #2 at NGLA. Most people think I'm insane for my love of that hole, but dammit talk about having everything... Funny thing is most people don't put it in the top 5 holes on that course, and here I'm calling it the greatest hole in the world.
This is a fun exercise... there are infinite answers... several at Sand Hills... #11 or 14 or 16 at Shinnecock.. and this is all just sticking to courses often discussed here... Foxy at Dornoch... #6 there... hell all 18 there...
Sorry for the rambling. I could indeed go on all day.
TH
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Did it used to be the road hole?
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Based on only being able to restrain my comments to holes I've seen in person, I would have to say the 8th at Prairie Dunes. Now if I can use photos... ::)
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No. 2 at Pine Valley. The views from the tee and then from the fairway (hopefully) are astonishing. Two good shots never feel so good!
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All good choices, my favorite is #8 at Pebble Beach. The 2nd shot is one that makes me so nervous I tend to soil myself ;D
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This may not be the greatest, nor my absolute favorite, hole in the world (i mean its tough to argue with the 2nd @ Pine Valley, or the 17th @ NGLA, or any hole at Cypress (save 18) but the 6th at The Creek is always one i have had a fondness for. It is a transition hole which leads the course down toward the Long Island Sound. The views from the tee of the whole course, and the Sound and New York beyond are spectacular. The strategy of the hole is terrific as well. Take a downhill tee shot as close as you can to the woods on the left in order to open up the green for your approach. The green complex with its narrow front left opening and contour which feeds running shots to the hole is awesome.
just some food for thought.
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The greatest hole in the world, for the greatest number of people playing, no matter how execrable their games....the 7th at Pebble Beach.
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SPDB - reading this, reading about the hole in George Bahto's book, man The Creek is on my MUST list. Some day....
What's interesting to me is your mention of a hole that's damn near contiguous to the one I mentioned, at NGLA. 17 is a great hole in all respects... I just find 2 to be better! And I fully realize I am in the minority on this. I don't mention this to argue, but rather to show this as a testament to what an incredibly great golf course NGLA is.
TH
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I'm with you, Bob. Just remember that heathen Rich "16 at Cypress is no big deal - it's just a simple driver shot" Goodale has nothing but ill-will for this hole as well. I hope he reads this. ;)
TH
The greatest hole in the world, for the greatest number of people playing, no matter how execrable their games....the 7th at Pebble Beach.
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My gut feeling tells me, it might be the Road Hole.
The Road Hole seems tempts better golfers to try risky shots, while at the same time there are lateral options that cater to the less skilled, and less adventurous.
It's your choice at the Road Hole. Try the risky shots and reap the potential rewards, or play safe with the likelihood of carding a higher score.
Or is it, try the risky shots with the likelihood of carding a higher score?!
Furthermore, there's tremendous interest in and around the green.
If not the best hole in the world, the Road Hole is likely the most durable.
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I'll go with the 8th at Pebble Beach. The last time I played there as I was standing in the fairway looking down on the green I had the thought that at that moment I was at the pinnacle of what the game of golf had to offer.
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#16 at Cypress Point and then start the discussion for 2nd place. It is simply awesome. No other hole can run the emotional rollercoaster that tee box puts in place.
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Funny how you and I think alike re this, Dave. What Joel said about 8 at Pebble applies to me on 16 Cypress without a doubt... My knees were literally knocking each time. It's just the enormity of it...and the familiarity... you've seen it in pictures so many times, and popping out of the grove coming from 15 tee, there it appears before you... It that doesn't make one's heart stir, well... I won't finish that. I like Rich Goodale too much and he poo-poohed this hole. ;)
TH
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Tom:
Take heart, Rich would say that the Victoria Falls was a nothing but a wee splash of water over some rocks, just to be ornery.
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Well said, Bob. I kinda get that feeling from Sir Goodale myself at times. But I also very much look forward to his reply if and when he reads this... It ought to be VERY good!
TH
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Tom,
I think I have a good way to describe #16 at Cypress. G-D created the perfect place for a golf hole and Seth Raynor was smart enough to notice it and insist that it be put there.
Last week I had the opportunity to play Mauna Kea. #3 is another of those holes that is a unanimous top 18 hole in golf. The hole is actually 30 yards longer than Cypress. It was playing 260 yards at sea level with a wet crosswind. Todd Eckenrode and myself (Not the shortest of hitters) both hit driver that day to clear the ocean. I thoroughly enjoyed the hole and had some anticipation before teeing off but no butterflies.
When I go to church each year on the High Holidays, I say prayers asking for G-D's help to be a better husband and father, etc. I also promise to only pray for things that are important and tell G-D that he is free to ignore the "Please let UofM score on this possession" prayers, if he will listen to the "Keep my children safe" ones. Standing on the tee box of #16 at Cypress, I felt the need to ask for a waiver on my "No need to listen to unimportant prayers" dictum and asked for divine guidance to hit the green. #9 at Cypress, #8 at Prairie, #3 at Mauna Kea, etc. are all great holes but none of them made me feel the need to make a special request with the Big Guy before hitting.
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Impossible question but just to be different, how about the 13th at Newcastle? Nothing quite like it.
I determined to think that the 16th at Cypress isn't, it's just too do or die.
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#13 at ANGC is a pretty good one.
I'm told.
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Paul:
Oh, but 16 at Cypress ISN'T just do or die... the faint of heart or of strength surely can take the easy route left. Dave sums up its greatness well above, for my thinking anyway... I too said certain prayers usually reserved for other dire sporting events and other life or death issues on that tee... But then again, that's because there was as much chance of me going left as me shooting 62 there. Not going to happen. But it surely is an option, if one requires such for greatness in a golf hole... ;)
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Funny how a question with no wrong answer can be so difficult. Kind of an enigma like the game sometimes. What it does do is help define what each persons preferences are. I know from my response that I do prefer that rugged natural dunesland look to the contrasting land and sea. Don't get me wrong, all the examples given (that I have seen) make me doubt my choice, just a bit. But in the deep down regions of my sub sub conscience I get giddy when I am surrounded by dunesland. Sand hills notwithstanding, I was giddy all day.
Tom- You're the only one who I can't quite make out what your prefernces are. Maybe if I knew the 2nd at NGLA, but even then I doubt it. I do have one question though, When you play poker do you like almost every hand, too? If so I suggest a game soon. ;D
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Architecturally speaking I might have to say Riviera's #10! Basically on a flat sort of nothing landform that hole about has it all. It's mentioned on here for one thing or another so often too. Talk about a great variety of options that're all tried and used all the time and by touring pros too!
For great architectural concept applied beautifully and through and through it's textbook!
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Tom
Yes but the safe route is only reasonably exciting for the duffer (I'm guessing). I think I just wouldn't pick a hole where water is the main hazard. I prefer a hole like Brancaster's 8th, where you always have a chance of the heroic recovery
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No.16 at Cypress Point Club. Nothing is as pure, as optional, as aesthetic nor as wonderful in all golf. (The Road Hole in 1800s was probably as 'bad' as it ever got in golf of that era. We only love it now for its longevity and its history -- and the quirky qualities which have become so beloved. Like an old woman with a tremendos, but awful, hairdo, we love her, but not for her trueness.)
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I am biased to the 15th Cypress is my hole to end all holes, 11th TOC and 8th at Pebble are close. I have a soft spot for 5 at Turnberry, 7 at Troon and 6 at Carnoustee 4and 14 at Dornoch, 3,6 and 8 at Machrihanish. Oh what a wonderful world of great holes 6 at Seminole, 13 Pacific Dunes, 16 at my home course, and the list goes on and on.
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May of my golf holes, the waterfall hole at Trump National, the waterfall hole at my new course in New Jersey and the most expensive hole ever built in California. They are the best of the best, can't wait till they are tested in a major.
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The greatest may have been at once conceived but never come to reality... The PAR FOUR #16 at Cypress Point...? Would it have been a better par 4? Have a go at the green - are you nuts...?
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Mr. Barry
Of course you go for the green on the 16th. In fact that is its weakness. It is just a cut driver/2 putt or a thinned 4-wood/4-putt, day after day, year after year, depending on the wind, of course. Nice views, though.
Mr. Huntley
I haven't played Victoria Falls. Is it that Fazio design in Kentucky, or somewhere similar. Is the Waterfall Hole there as great as the one at Trump National?
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I meant, as a par 4 with the tees further back as I understand was originally contemplated... Super heroic carry to the green, or "safer" play to the left - leaving a spooky pitch...
It's tough to narrow it down - if it's golf, I love em all.
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For me, the greatest hole is the first hole on a golf trip with the boys after traveling on a long plane trip. You dream for months in the snow of NY, start hitting balls in March and finally it comes in the summer. In the last two years that has meant the first hole at Sand Hills and Enniscrone in Ireland. Both are very good golf holes too. This year I would really like to play that first hole at Dornoch, I just have to juggle that kids, wife, work schedule a little better.
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The hole I last played. And birdied. Or eagled. :D
Tough call.
I obviously love the redan, especially at NGLA. I love the Alps at NGLA better. Yes Mr Huckaby, I love the Sahara as well. And Valley. Obviously that start is so wonderful, none can count!
I'll never forget the second at Royal Aberdeen.
On and on.
But the Greatest?
I'm still looking.
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From what I've seen, the 11th in Ballybunion, the 17th in St Andrews, 17th Rosses Point, 13th Druids Glenn, 9th Turnberry...
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Possibly not the greatest yet but I think that #6 at Kingsbarns in Scotland is heading in that direction:
According to George Thomas, ‘The spirit of golf is to dare a hazard, and by negotiating it reap a reward, while he who fears or declines the issue of carry, has a longer or harder shot for their next’. This philosophy is evident at the sixth hole at Kingsbarns golf club. The diagonal fairway bunkers force the player to make a decision on the tee. Do they dare to take on the heroic carry and have a chance of getting a favourable kick onto the short 337 yard Par 4 or do they lay up to the left of the bunkers off the tee and face a short but challenging approach shot to a green that slopes from front to back and gathers into a small but deep bunker? A truly strategic hole that, in the true spirit of links golf changes from day to depending on the wind direction.
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Tom- You're the only one who I can't quite make out what your prefernces are. Maybe if I knew the 2nd at NGLA, but even then I doubt it. I do have one question though, When you play poker do you like almost every hand, too? If so I suggest a game soon. ;D
Adam - hey, I just mentioned a few holes that I think qualify for a best in the world, that's all. My preferences change based on my whims. I do love #2 at NGLA, though, and as of this second it's my favorite hole on that course. Ask me tomorrow though and it might be #3. Or #4. Or #8. Or #17. Or #16. Or #14. Or #1. Those who know the course can see the trend here, in any case... including #2, six out the eight holes I mention from NGLA are shortish par 4's - the other is Alps, which may well be the greatest "longish" par 4 in the world (yes, I include the Road Hole in this) and the other is the world's best Redan.
As for poker, I avoid such pursuits - for obvious reasons!
TH
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I checked with the Golf Gods and it is still No. 16 at Cypress Point Club.
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And just to confuse my friend Adam even more, I can certainly live with the gods' assessment, Forrest. ;)
TH
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Another entry from me, at least on paper (because essentially that's about all it ever was), would have to be MacKenzie's prize winning Country Life Contest hole that apparently got built in some narrowed form at Lido.
What a hole that one appears it would have been. Do you realize that with all that was going on on that hole, particularly in the hole's mid-body that it was approximately 200 yards WIDE!
I love that width, perhaps one of golf architecture's biggest luxuries, but even MacDonald's description of it (and his adaptation of it at Lido) was that it was far too luxuriously wide to do as drawn!
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What exactly does it mean for a golf hole to be the greatest in the world?
If it means "the one hole you would like to play well", then my choice would be a short par five, #17 on the Cashen course at Ballybunion.
Key elements are:
Very demanding drive that forces you to think about wind and shot placement.
A choice whether to go for the green or layup.
Potential disaster and/or tricky recovery shots if you miss.
No simple par even if you play the hole conservatively.
A very dramatic green complex right by the sea.
A nice view of horses on the beach or people playing the nearby 11th hole.
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To those of you who said #16 at CPC--
There is a great story from a few years ago (perhaps hypocriful, and maybe with a few details wrong). The SF Chronicle called Sandy Tatum (the former USGA Pres and a CPC member) and said that in their balloting for the best golf holes in Calif., they had a tie for the best Par 3, and they wanted him to break the tie. He said that he could guess the two holes were #15 and #16 at CPC, and he would take #15 as the best. They confirmed that he was right in his guess.
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Mr. H
This is not at all surprising, as Mr. Tatum probably couldn't make the carry on 16 over the past few years.
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Hmmmm... I saw Mr. Tatum play about a year ago at SFGC... At least then, even at his advanced age, I'd take him making the carry on 16 given favorable conditions. He did blow the ball past where I had hit mine on the one hole on which we let them play through... :'(
TH
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"Accuracy, carry and [THEN] length" according to Flynn. What makes 16th superior is that it involves all three, both in the order Flynn suggests, and also in the order a great golf hole will suggest. Fifteen is a great hole, but I doubt the Golf Gods would go so far as No. 2 in the world. I'll ask them this afternoon when I arrive for a hearing on a matter involving green sizes. Until then.
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I checked with the Golf Gods and it is still No. 16 at Cypress Point Club.
Since I get soundly beaten (regularly!) for trashing my former home, California, I may as well trash #16 CPC.
Thusly: 8)
I find it hard to support a one-shotter which basically has one way to play it as a one-shotter (i.e. forced carry). It is beautifully situated, replete with fog, cypress trees and all the rest which make CA so over-rated ;D, (CPC #15 may be an even prettier setting) but a multi-shotter is easier to defend.
Also, I am not proffering a particular hole as holes are like courses, personal taste. But I do really like the Alps at NGLA, a beautiful redhead.
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Redanman -- I thought it was, as you said "The hole I last played. And birdied. Or eagled." -- or that you "were still looking..." Very nice thoughts.
However, the 16th at Cypress Point Club is still better than those...so far as we know. No. 16 at CPC is neither a one-shotter or two-shotter, but rather both wrapped into one at the player's choice. It is heroic, penal, detour and lay-up all in one package. A rare bird. It also occupies a spot on earth that cannot be duplicated, even by Micheal Eisner.
Par has nothing to do with determining this pseudo award. Par being a rather new condition that golf would be well without. Par matters not.
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How about #14 at Maidstone? #9 or #10 at Shinnecock? #5 at Pine Valley
as the 2nd best par 3? #8 at Troon?
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Yard for yard, there's no way anyone can come up with a better hole than the Postage Stamp. If I measure it by what hole would I want to play if I could only play one hole over and over again for the rest of my life, I'd be hard pressed to top the Road Hole (no matter what is done to the bunker) It can play so many ways depending on conditions, and even in perfect weather it is demanding enough that you might have a half dozen strategies for how to play it depending on how good of a game you brought with you that day. You'll use pretty much every club in your bag on it, something I'd view as a requirement if I was limited to a single hole.
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How come no one has nominated #17 at TPC??? :o Hmmm???
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There's a few holes which have been listed repeatedly -
#16 Cypress
#17 St Andrew's Old
#8 Pebble
Some have been mentioned in only one posting. I especially agree that #9 at Turnberry is a terrific hole, as is #13 ANGC.
It seems pretty clear to me that I must also take a flight from Melbourne - direct to NGLA as soon as humanly possible.
Where does #6 Royal Melbourne West and sit in all this ?
Of all the holes proposed, and the discussion therein, the strategic aspects, and aesthetic value, as well as the quirky seem to surface repeatedly as important considerations in judging. The demand for great thought, and great shotmaking, in a beautiful setting...
How important are the historical aspects of a hole ? By that, I mean, the part a hole has played in a major Championship, or what special moments is has played host to in the past ??
Matthew
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Forrest
As a two shotter #16 CPC does little for me except the aesthetics (The California effect) to qualify it as the best in the world.
One of the lovely spots on earth, but to me aesthetics do not make a hole several of orders of magnitude better.
You haven't heard me about PBG(not)L yet, and I'll spare the keystrokes. Try the search feature. :D
And I am still searching.
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So many to consider.
Sean Berry beat me to it (I'm working too hard these days).
#6 at The Creek. Superb risk/reward strategy off the tee which works as well as it does because of the equally sublime angle and design of the green complex. Add the view on a sunny day and.....oh my!
Surprised #2 is the only hole at Pine Valley to get a vote. #'s 8, 13 and 15 would be on my short list 24/7. Many others also rave about #'s 5 and 10.
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#16 at Cypress, and then #9 at Royal County Down.
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With the mercury sitting at @ 6 degrees this morning in New England I can help but think that the next hole I get to play will be the greatest ever!
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Dave Schmidt:
Bad analogy on the boxing bit. One of the greatest fights ever, 1985, Hagler kos Hearns in the third round. Truly one of the most electrifying contests of all time.
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Greatest thing about this discussion - it'll never end... Won't end here or in clubhouses, locker rooms, dinner tables, etc...
To ME, the greatest hole in the world is the 13th at Wayne Golf Course (near Seattle) in August of 1983. It's a tree-obsured drop shot par 3, and my only hole in one ever... Since that day it's been an funky hole on an awful golf course. I'd love to think that I'll the next greatest hole in the world will come along soon!
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Messrs. Huntley andSchmidt
Do not forgot all those epic 1-3 round Olympic boxing contests, the epickest of which was Bobick Vs. Stevinson, particularly in the SNL replay version.
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I have to side with Dave, the greatest hole can't be a par 3. It has to involve more strategy and options and test length, placement and judgement by requiring a second or third shot to reach the green depending on the outcome of the tee ball. It needs conceivably recoverable hazards with a very skilled recovery shot in the tee to green area. It can be a long 4 or a reachable (with the very best and heroic effort) par 5, but a par strategy lay-up option for either par 4 or 5. There needs to be teeing ground distance disparity to set it up for most golfers to play the par 5 heroic shot to or near the green with the two best strikes one can possible make. If it is a long 4 or short 5, the option of the keen pitching, putting from off green, or bump and run needs to be a consideration. And finally, it needs a green that demands approach strategy and putting skill. TRH at TOC, or 13 or 15 ANGC, or 1 - 16 (3 shot for the normal human) or 18 SH, 6-8-12-14-16-18 WH are only some I can think of. There is no definitive greatest one in my book.
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My hole (#9 @ CPC) falls into the short par 4 category. At 265 yds. it is doable just not advisable. FYI One of the caddies made an ace there a few years back. But the risk is extremely high. As a side note about the 16th and lack of strategy. My virgin and only trip around CPC was in competition at 16 a kibbitzer suggested letting the "A" Players hit first. I asked why and the reply was that if they got in trouble we (B players) were to lay up. I couldn't believe my ears, I kept repeating in the tone my mind had heard it 'lay up' 'lay up'. I guess my pysche felt the lay up spot left was even smaller than the green. As it worked out they were in trouble one in the back bunk and the other somewhere towards Oahu long left. Point being I found little strategy or comfort in the perceived option and would much rather have gone down in flames than aim for that bunker.
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It has to involve more strategy and options and test length, placement and judgement by requiring a second or third shot to reach the green depending on the outcome of the tee ball. It needs conceivably recoverable hazards with a very skilled recovery shot in the tee to green area. It can be a long 4 or a reachable (with the very best and heroic effort) par 5, but a par strategy lay-up option for either par 4 or 5. There needs to be teeing ground distance disparity to set it up for most golfers to play the par 5 heroic shot to or near the green with the two best strikes one can possible make. If it is a long 4 or short 5, the option of the keen pitching, putting from off green, or bump and run needs to be a consideration. And finally, it needs a green that demands approach strategy and putting skill.
Well said, and it sounds like my two favorites, the 17th and 14th at TOC, fit the bill perfectly. I go back and forth on which is better; I love the 17th for all the reasons given before but playing the 14th, with the Beardies, the Elysian Fields, Hell Bunker, and the number of conceivable ways to play the hole, makes you feel like you're on some sort of odyssey, and from tee to green it is a scare and a thrill all at once. So today I'll go with the 14th. Tomorrow I'm sure I'll go with the Road Hole, though. Either way, for me the best hole in the world is fairly flat with OB right--who would have thought?!
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The 15th and 16th at CPC, the 13th at Augusta, the 8th at PB, the 17th at St. Andrews--all great. But the single best in my mind is the 9th at Royal County Down--when the gorse is in bloom and mountains are black behind it. My favorite hole on my favorite course!
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The 5th at Crystal Downs. I know this is an odd choice, but it stems from two factors. One, it can be played at least four different ways, each option has a tight target with a completely different and uniquely complicated approach. The second, and main reason, is that none of the choices seem to be the right one. I think I could play this hole 100 times and not be sure of the right way to play it. Not bad for a short four!
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Well there was this young lass from Manassass...
Dan King
There was a young lady named Spruce
Whose favorite thrill was a goose.
Just the sight of a thumb
Made her tokus all numb,
And her bowels got excited -- and loose.
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Well, I've been gone to Tucson for the day and wow, what a bunch of misguided conversation*. Let me just focus on the notion that "a par-3 cannot be considered as the greatest hole...", as this clearly is a dangerous thought.
Bunk.
The greatest hole should be one which embodies a bit of history, charm, excitement, strategy, and involves a variety of playing conditions by way of its position on our natural earth. It should also be beautiful, strike a chord in the heart, be amazing in terms of blending nature with our beloved golf, and it should stimulate the sensations of all men and women who visit her tee. It might also be that the greatest hole is one in which play could possibly result in a score of just one (this being among the most cherished of a golfer's life of stories), or perhaps twelve (this being also among the most cherished of a golfer's life of stories.)
It should test nerves, strength, mind, spirit, body, vision, and one's desired degree of risk-taking at a given point in time. The best hole in the world must be fun and enjoyable. It should be a magnet, attracting all who have ever play golf to want very much to join it, even if just in a book, on TV, or by way of admiring a framed snapshot of a lucky fellow who got invited there once to enjoy a round. Like any attractive subject, it might be slightly hard to catch which makes it even more alluring.
It should ideally be devoid of any civilization so as to truly catapult a golfer into nature, from where golf began and where it will end. It might also be at the literal end of the earth, or so close that we feel like we might be there.
You see, these qualities -- even if you disagree with more than a few -- have not so much as a grass blade's worth of value to the concept of par. It does not matter how many shots we take to reach home, or for that matter whether we play the hole forward, backward or just walk along its fairway late one afternoon and meet someone coming the other way doing the same; both with not a club, nor a ball, but just the love for this earthly pastime we have come to embrace.
*Not all of it, just some.
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"Devoid of civilization"?! :o Absolutely, if you are talking about generic houses lining the fairway, or a view of a trailer park or a big factory complete with smokestacks. But even for those who don't count the Road Hole among their candidates for greatest hole in the world, I'd find it crazy if they gave as their reason that it was not devoid of civilization. At least for the views of St. Andrews that can be seen. I might be willing to grant that some people can't accept a hole with a tee shot played over a building, but the hole was there first.
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Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
The greatest hole in the world is actually in our minds. Visualize, gently, gently now. Not even a single shot is requried. Bliss, bliss and heaven.
Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
NOW!!! We are getting somewhere.
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I believe Redanman has it! Although he misspelled Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. It is correctly Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmm.
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Forrest- That was some eloquent stuff. I don't mean to be insulting just ignorant and naive, did you write it?
Redanman- I am really getting the yucks ( a good thing) from your posts lately. Have they a new brand of Pharmacuticals out? If so, can we get some? Paging Dr. Howard, Dr. Katz, Dr.Howard. :o :o :o
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Note to Doug -- I've always had a interest in the term "generic houses". Are they generic to the people who live in them and share life's joys and troubles across small breakfast tables? Or, are they generic to those of us who loft ourselves above the bad design and planning that we ourselves have defined? Do you consider the multi-colored rooftops of San Francisco's hillsides "generic", or by now have they passed into the past so far that you classify them "nostalgic" and, indeed, "sort of neat"? What about the buildings (houses) that line the Home Hole at St. Andrews?
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Yes, I wrote it. Both with heart and keypad.
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236 yard hole............
2-iron.....shank
hoselshot
lateral
HARD fade
(Club helicoptering) (Scott, is there a smiley for that one?)
FLUSHED 3-wood over the back!!!!!!!
90* chip
Hank's chip
chip and a putt .......ahem, 12
If that were your only time playing the hole, sheeeeesh. Maybe it wouldn't be the greatest!
;D ;D ;)
In all seriousness (HAH!) I would hope that there are many answers to this question of greatest hole in the world.
I can't pick just one.
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"There are few problems more difficult to solve than the problem of what exactly constitutes an ideal hole". The ideal hole is surely one that affords the greatest pleassure to the greatest number, gives the fullest advantage for accurate play, stimulates players to improve their game, and never becomes monotonous". - Dr. Alister MacKenzie
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More very interesting reading on here.
And I can certainly understand the philosophical position that no par 3 can be the greatest hole in the world. Sure, makes sense.
BUT...
Cypress Point #16 is still the greatest hole in the world. Just look at it as a par4 if you must. It's liklely unreachable for over half the golfing world, and how many threes do people make there anyway? ;)
This hole transcends any hard and fast rules. Dave W.'s posts here speak volumes.
TH
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I agree, Tom. No. 16 at CPC meets all criteria in my book. Literally.
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And Forrest, we're lucky to have someone like you here for whom that "literally" is so true! ;)
TH
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What a good topic!! So many interesting replies as well.
I wonder how we'd consider the answer without todays equipment? Many of the holes mentioned would be almost unplayable for the average golfer.
Classiscs like #16 Cypress Point and #17 Old Course weren't even designed as 1 or 2 shot holes resepectively, #16 is probably only considered a Par 3 these days because of equipment, 10-15 years only the longest hitters would have comfortably reached the green . #8 at Pebble Beach would be a nightmare from the current back tee for all but the longest hitters regardless of conditions.
If the decision is on difficulty I go for #17 Old Course or #17 TPC Sawgrass talk about hit or miss. For aesthetics I go for #5 at Royal Portrush on a sunny day (only because so many people have mentioned #18 CPGC) and for all-round challenge #9 at County Down, from the plates (as a Par 4) into the breeze, you can't hit a weak shot at all.
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The greatest hole in the world?
It is either the Grand Canyon or the Pacific Ocean, depending on whether or not you see the hole as half full or half empty.
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Oh, the Grand Canyon? We'll have that filled by March at the latest. Remodeling is coming along fine.
-- An Arizonan
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!8th at Sand Hills has been mentioned. A very fair hole, I've seen over 100 different golfers play this hole and have yet to see a birdie. An incredible finish to an outerworldly golf course. However, it may not be the best hole on the COURSE.
Therefore, I pick the 16th at Cypress Point.
Anyway, these are the the only two holes I have prints and photographs of hanging on the wall in my "Golf Room" so that must mean something!
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Glen F,
Cypress Point #16 has nothing to do with equipment. Marion Hollins drove to the current greensite when the course was being routed by Mackenzie. HER shot convinced him to make it a par 3. :)
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I don't think TPC Sawgrass 17 should ever be mentioned in this discussion again....
However, CPC #17 should be.
Glen, you sort of make a good point in that Cypress #16 and #17 would have played tougher, in some ways, with yesteryear's equipment. They still however play tough with today's toys.
I find the fact that the design remains relevant, challenging and enjoyable through all these years, to be really amazing ....
The point of Marion Hollins hitting to the green site is repeatedly raised in numerous texts. Imagine the response from those nearby when she accomplished that ???
Also mentioned in regard to Cypress #16 is Bing Crosby's ace. When asked about it, I believe he said he wouldn't swap it for 2 Oscars !!!
Matthew
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MatthewM -- Yes, #17 CPC is terrific. But, as I've pointed out, #16 has been situated to be so very unique, and part of this is by virtue of its maddening "intermediate" length. Pure and simple, the hole is a perfect blend of the three priorities of strategy (in order, and compliments of the late Wm. Flynn):
1. ACCURACY
2. CARRY
...[and then]
3. LENGTH
I pondered in some recent writing whether Hunter and MacKLenzie may well have considered #17 at CPC to be a par-5. There had been confirmed discussions, and even a detailed drawing for a bridge, concerning an island tee for #18 at CPC. This was well after CPC was completed. If an island tee at #18, then why not at #17? In fact, at #17 there is more land and better access -- it's not even a full island. In this design #17 would have been 460-yards or more, and a true Cape hole.
Just the thought of making #17 better is warrant enough not to place it above #16 in terms of this discussion. But I do hold #17 in great regard and agree with your focus on CPC. It's setting catapults it to the top in my opinion.
Perhaps a great discussion would be the combination of Nos. 16 and 17! That may well eclipse these two holes altogether!
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A hidden gem...
One of Stanley Thompson masterpiece..
The 5th hole at Montebello, a 430 yards par 4 sliding to the right with a semi-blind tee shot around a big tree. Folow by a uphill shot toward a well protected green allowing also a running approach.
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WITHOUT QUESTION IT IS THE 17TH AT THE OLD COURSE.
16TH AT CYPRESS IS 1A IN STANDINGS.
SO IT IS DECREED BY US, SO IT IS. . . .
NOW, WE MUST GET BACK TO DESTROYING GREG NORMAN'S CAREER . . . .
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Why should any hole not be discussed (i.e. 17 @ TPC)? There is not another hole where fear is so acute - especially for a little short iron to a pretty big green... I don't think its the greatest hole either - but it IS great! So are 16 and 18...
Steve
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Hi Forrest, thanks for your post.
You said - 'Perhaps a great discussion would be the combination of Nos. 16 and 17! That may well eclipse these two holes altogether!'
Now there's something awesome that I'd never thought of...
You were right too with the term 'maddening intermediate length'.
I too thought that at some stage, Hunter and MacKenzie would have thought of CPC #17 as a two shotter for some, and a three-shot hole for others, depending on strength and skill, as well as conditions ...
The design of a hole on the edge of 'par' is a grat feature of many of the holes we've discussed on this thread.
These holes must have been even more appreciated in years past, when match play was much more prevalent than it is today.
As an aside, several here in Melbourne who don't like the Royal Melbourne West layout that much, cite the collection of short par five's as a main reason, but I disagree. They are all reachable in two with the right tee shot, and all provide a great scoring and strategic challenge. They're all at that maddening intermediate length, and always provide interest.
Matthew
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Par is an over-rated device of golf. Actually, the Golf Gods enjoy shortish holes relative to their labeled par. Makes them feel good to see both sides of the coin: the low scores, and then the would-be low scores derailed by nerves, casualness and smugness.
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So sorry Ed, was par actually invented at that time?? A person hitting a green in regulation shouldn't determine its par should it. If so lets hope John Daly and Mr Woods don't start touring with course designers or we'll never see great short par 4 or 5's again. All courses will Par 64!!!!??? :o
Glen F,
Cypress Point #16 has nothing to do with equipment. Marion Hollins drove to the current greensite when the course was being routed by Mackenzie. HER shot convinced him to make it a par 3. :)
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Glen -- And what would be wrong with courses of a par-64? Your tone, if I detect correctly, sounds as if there is something wrong with this math. Shoudl par not, perhaps, change dependent on the player, the match, the conditions, the moment? If Daley and Woods are playing TOC might par not be best at 65 for that match-up? Why not?
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The greatest hole in the world and the one that was undisputedly "ideal" WAS the old 16th at Fernandina Beach Municipal!
Unfortunately, it's NLE--lost to the expansion of a 7-11 parking lot dumpster area!
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Explain this hole. What was it like?
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I have three pictures on my wall and all three are at CPC. One is me on the first after our comp. touching the trophy with my teammates. The other three are of me ( :o ) standing on the ninth tee, 15th tee and sitting on the bench at 16. Now, since I've only been a round once I must say that my choosing the ninth as the best in the world is a three year old memory. Again, the multi-option surrounded (framed) by the dunes is to me the best. I wonder how many actual words it took for my caddie to get to me hit a seven iron but it was alot. As one descends down to the fairway you are engulphed by the dunes with little landing areas which caused all the discussion on the tee. Then the approach to the uphill, higher on the left lower on the right, severely sloped sliver of a green that runs at a slight angle away to the left.
To me, this option filled hole is more of what golf should be than the famed 16th. Seriously how many options do you have on 16. Carry the 197 yds of not, go way right where the meat of the green is or attack the left pin? Not too much to figure out other than hit it or miss it. While just being on the hallowed ground is enough to make even the most sedated giddy, the placement of the ninth and the anticipation of the greatness which you know is comming makes it a contender in my book.
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Adam
It's nearly 35 years since my latest University math course, but in all due respect I think you have 4 pictures on your wall. Did somebody perhaps put one too many (or too few?)magic musrooms in the breakfast omelet?
PS--my favorite short 4's at CPC are 8 and 13. Hard to really genuflect before a hole like 9 where (unless you can make the soft 290 carry over the false front) a solid straight drive gives you virtually no advantage over a 7-iron off the tee.
Slainte
Rich
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Intersting how the mind doesn't work. I wonder what aphasia I have today or what is it about 3? I do have four. actually more than four but these four are a series and really the only selfish pictures in the house.
As for the 290 carry i was under the impression the hole was 265. Grant it it could play 290, javier and/or wind. Don't you think if you were able to play there more you might have a go on a few days?
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Had a go the 1st time I played it with a mildly favorable wind. Hit it solid with a wee draw and it landed about 10 feet short of the green (front pin) where it stopped like a gerbil in heat. Got my 4, of course.....
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Re: CPC's #9 and #16...
I believe, gentlemen, that the element of the sea is sufficient enough to launch #16 past #9 in honors of "the best". A golf hole, because it is a living combination of parts within the environment, must be gauged by what is around it, both proximal and distant.
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Dave- 16 does not require a career shot. It's 197 to carry the wall. I doubt 7 iron is an option for lay up on 16 but again I felt that the lay up option did not exist save for into a gale. On nine it's the play due to the penal nature of the dunes that kind of jut in and out of the fairway. I actually missed mine and ended up on the top of duneline on the right but didn't go over the apex. So I hit a smooth seven iron to the front which is on the right otherwise the rest of the green to the left is gaurded by a massive dune bunker monster going up the hill.(almost redan-like)
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I would agree with PB #8, with the exception that driver is pretty much taken out of your hands
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Very cool this came back up, and interesting you fellows were discussing CPC the very day my chums and I were playing the course. No wonder I didn't see all this before... ;)
Given that was a scant two weeks ago, the memory is fresher, so I can say this about Nos. 9 and 16:
9: the card says 292 from blue, 282 from white. That's to the middle of the green. Remember, the dune on which the green sits is MASSIVE, so the entire green is well above the tee, but the back left is REALLY above the tee. So my assessment would be:
front right pin: big hitters go for it without a doubt, as Dave says. The actual widest point to leave their shot (besides hitting WEDGE off the tee and staying short of the dune/scrub that starts on the left about 150 off the tee) is right up by the green. So the choice really isn't there... it's either wedge to a fat part, something that goes 150-220 to a skinny part, or 220+ to another fatter part, up by the green. Unfortunately you're likely to get the result Rich did unless you carry it about 270 uphill, but what the hell, it's the right shot anyway. It's not an EASY shot, but it seems to me to be the only viable choice, really.
Back left pin (upper tier): only the most foolish even try for that. You're gonna need a carry of 280, uphill, and then hope that stops on that shelf. Doesn't seem very likely... and the risk is HUGE... short means death on the dunes, long means you pray it stays on 10 tee and even then the pitch back would be brutally touchy, with the most likely result being the ball goes all the way back down the tier.
I too love the golf hole, I like the choices involved... but then again, I'm not a Schmidt/Wigler/Ward type blaster for whom the above are the choices - I couldn't make the back left pin with a cannon, and front right exists for me only if I get some serious wind behind. All of the above is just speculation as to how these blasters would handle the hole... Hopefully one will see this and grade my thinking. ;)
In any case, us mortals surely do have to give a lot of thought to the tee shot choice... normally it would be trying to fit something into the skinnier fairway at 150-200. Two weeks ago I went ahead and hit driver, and it worked out fine - ended up about 40 yards short of the green - damn good shot given the odd left to right and against wind we had. But I can see the normal shot, for me anyway, being in the 150-200 range.
Rich makes a VERY good point anyway that in the end, a shot up near the green isn't that much better than a shot layed back... for me, a 50 yard pitch up hill seems easier than a full 140 yard shot, which is what the wedge off the tee would leave... but that's because my iron play sucks. I can see a finer iron player doing this 9-iron/8-iron for sure... if anything the shot from farther back allows you to see more of the green and isn't as uphill as being right below the dune...
Oh well, it's one hell of a golf hole that can inspire this much commentary, anyway!
And I didn't mention 16 yet! No, no choices exist there - not if you're there as a guest, anyway. I can't see ever playing left, unless I was a member and had a lot riding. The shot isn't much easier going left... So long as I'm able to make a 200 yard carry, that's always gonna be the play - straight at the hole.
That doesn't lessen the greatness of the hole at all, for me anyway. Choices are one thing, and incredible beauty and magic are another. The latter speak louldy to me....
TH
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Wind, nerves, the smell of the sea, the sound of the waves -- are all a plus at #16 -- these factors cannot be ignored when considering the question.
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Wind, nerves, the smell of the sea, the sound of the waves -- are all a plus at #16 -- these factors cannot be ignored when considering the question.
Concur completely, Forrest. I was just trying to comment on the "choices" involved on 9, as discussed by Rich and Dave. 16 remains the greatest hole in the world, even after an inattentive caddie answers your queries re using less club in an odd downwind condition with a brush-off "no way, go ahead and hit driver" resulting in your ball going so long and left that it's likely in Japan now.
Not saying this happened to anyone two weeks ago, nooo... I wouldn't be that bitter. ;)
TH
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Forrest agreed, except for when the sea wants to take you with it.
True story, at last years Caddie cup a big wave almost swept Casey Boyns off his feet. It would've been the stuff legends are made of since Casey is one of the best players on the peninsula.
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16th at CPC. End of story.
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Imagine -- a golf hole that can literally sweep you off your feet. -- !