Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Bob_Huntley on May 31, 2003, 07:16:56 PM
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I played Pebble today in the most glorious weather immaginable. The scenery as always, was stunning, the condition of the course outstanding, the green fast and firm. The greens seem to get smaller as I get older. Admittedly it was customer golf and I rode a cart. Dan King, forgive me. Would I want to play this way on a regular basis? No.
The cart path rule ruins any continuity of play, hit it right on #6 and you have a hundred yard trek to your ball and then back to drive the cart up the hill because your cart-mate has forgotten all about it.
With caddies in the group in front and behind we still took five hours to play. To speed up play a new tee has been placed on top of the ridge at #8 depriving players the joy of the blind shot up the hill. It is still my favourite, but I now think that Pine Valley is a better test.
I await a slap from a glove at any moment.
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No slap Bob. That trek back to the path on 6 is almost as bad as going straight up that hill. Not a bad idea to let the lunatics run the asylum on that hole and allow them off the path. Except for that pesky little cliff that has seen it's share of accidents.
I 've heard stories about when Pebble allowed carts off the path. The turf was virtually ruined with all the abuse.
Bob- You very much need to play in the owners tourney (it has a special name). On that day they just ask that you stay off the greens with the carts, but beyond that it's truely ANYWHERE. ;D
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I've played PB once in February 2001.
I teed off around 8:30am, carried my own bag while walking and played in less than 4 hours.
I'll ask one question - is my experience the rule, or the exception? It was the week before the ATT (they had the bleachers up) and the course was in GREAT shape.
Other than the green fee ($325), I had zero complaints and I thought the course was out of this world.
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Dan- Under your circumstances, it is normal. Normal being, most early tee times are not for the "fair weather" golfer and usually translate into fast rounds. The problem happens somewhere soon after when the air is slightly warmer and more of those who are asleep on the course awaken.
Was that your first time playing Pebble? and if so, was it worth it?
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Bob, I feel your pain. I grew up in Marin County and played PB several times as a teenager, paying $20 and carrying my bag. No cart paths, maybe no carts. The last time I played was in 1978. No cart paths, carried, carts went everywhere. I cannot imagine a "short tee" on #8. I must be getting old, nothing is as good as it used to be! I was just whining to David Tepper about Sonoma Golf Club, an old favorite, which is now private/resort and no longer open to the general public. Pebble still is and will always be the most beautiful course in the world, just because of the oceanfront holes. (Cypress is certainly #2!). But it's all being ruined by Mammon. Boy am I a grouch. :( :o
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Bob,
The short tee on #8 deprives you of a memorable shot, but what new challenges are brought. Id guess you steer away from the cliff and have a shorter shot from a less ideal angle. But its been 30 years and $300 ago.
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I am having trouble finding one thing the Eastwood Palmer group have done to improve Pebble. Infact it is one negative thing after another. I intentionally stopped playing there 2 years ago. I am very fortunate to have the opportunity to play other venues in the area. If they must have cart play then put the paths on both sides and cut the walks down. Stop doing things like ruining 1/3 of one of the great holes in golf. The best thing I hear is play and revenues are down. I am sure they are blaming it on the economy, but maybe eventually they will see the errors in their ways. We had the Tap room to ourself during a meal after the Kings Putter in March. There were also rooms available at the Lodge and Spanish Bay too. I have a friend going out in July and he could get rooms for then this week. I am going out in August and I assure you the restaurents will be half full at best. And no I will not even think of playing there. I love the place and the course with all my heart but will not give support to the shoddy management practices of this team.
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Pete- The forward tee on #8 does take away that blind tee shot but there really is no advantage to the left side. The fairway stops even with the edge of the cliff. So, the line is left side but the distance is close to 200. That leaves the best second shot in golf. Depending on the individual I would tell the player not to go up the hill and play from down below. I wouldn't want someone who has never been there and may never be back to miss one of the lifes great unknowns. Their first time driving on 8. For me it was confusing to the point of curiosity.
JohnnyB- I am curious if you could quantify what you perceive as the cypress' groups mis-managed practices.
I know you to be an expert on this matter but I am under the impression that the fault doesn't lie that far up the food chain. Please enlighten.
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Adam, I felt the changes were at the top. I forget the partner's name who took over daily oversite of the project for the group. He is a highly visable man too. Anyway, there was significant marketing research done to quantify the potential cash flow and growth areas. The feeling was there was alot of room to increase fees for all parts of the enterprise. Naturally, this was in a period of tremendous economic expansion and growth in the Bay area. The management team shifted the balance away from a europeon boutique resort/golf to more the modal you find in Palm Springs or Scotsdale. The balance was shifted to corporate outing and medium groups. This allowed for more use of the meeting facilities and a greater value per head on the property and allowed for all rooms to be presold in advance. We all know the rooms were already sold 6 month to a year out. Also across the board increases in fees. The focus on groups created a larger and larger % of corporate guests who have minimal golf skills and slowed down the pace of play to levels never seen before. It also changed the atmosphere of the courses and eating area away from the game. There has always been some of this but it was a major shift in clientel. I noticed it in who i met and was paired with to who was in the restaurents and bars with. The business in the rest and bars went way down too. There were emany more group functions. the maintenance is now done during the day and to the disruption of the golf experience. Before it was done from 3AM forward so almost all work was done before anyone got to that hole the next morning.
I feel like I at any nice Marriott resort or golf resort now. I knew I was at one of the premeier places in the world of golf before.
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Bob Huntley,
It was my understanding that Pebble Beach went to curbed cart paths only after two gentlemen plunged to their death while riding a cart over the cliff on the 8th fairway under foggy conditions.
If that is true, I can understand cart path only thinking.
And, with the general public, carts have been known to in some unusual places.
I don't know the number of rounds per year, but If they are high, I can see carts doing considerable damage.
This is a "for profit" club, and I would imagine that cart revenues are substantial.
I also found that, even with caddies, unless you were the first off, or last off. where you could do what you wanted, that it was at least an unenjoyable 5+ hour round.
I guess it's a case of having to take the good with the bad.
The golf course is still spectacular.
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Tiger.
Your mention of the people rubber-necking on the Lodge grounds, reminds me of the butler in the movie 'A New Leaf.' You might remember his comment to Walter Matthau re the stroppy staff, " I am afraid sir, that they are terribly democratic."
We had a drink afterwards in the main lounge, the crowd looked as they had just gotten out of a rap video show.
S.F.B.Morse would turn over in his grave.
ps. One thing that boggled my mind was that a sleeve of
Titleist ProV1's goes for $20.00 plus sales tax!
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By banning golf carts and their horrible paths, Pebble Beach could impact the worldwide the trend of less and less walking: it's just about the only course that could.
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P_Turner,
That's not going to happen in the near future.
However, if the Bandon/Pacific Dunes complex were nearby, it might.
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John- Very intersting but not a surprise. Having not been a customer (too often) my perspective was from the guys who'd been going for more than a decade. Their view combined with yours leads me to belive that you are correct about the upper manangments responsibility.
Not only do they not pay their people a decent livable wage(most have to live far away) the service provided is lax, while simultaneously raising fees, for say a massage, and lowering what the masseuse gets paid for that work.
Capitalism at it's climax. Thank god they have that billion in unrealized real estate profit to protect.
Pat- There is no cart revenue at PB they throw it in. :o
I never heard of two tourista's meeting their end off the cliff. There's a famous failed suicide story (not a golfer) and a few mower horror stories, but I never heard yours.
My personal fav is the one about the quarter mil $ diamond engagment ring snatched up by a seagull and deposited into the ocean. Some say it was fraud, who knows?
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Pebble is not so empty as you might imagine. A foursome cannot get a time for the months of September or October (as of today.) Therein lies the reason they can do what they want.
How they deal with the lost revenue at SB is beyond my comprehension. They were giving comped rounds to anyone who stayed at the Inn and played Pebble for a good portion of the spring.
Lastly, I have no problem with it being cart path only, because it encourages more people to walk. Also, two years ago when I last played two rounds the pace was 4:20 minutes (morning times, but not first thing.)
The $380 price tag seems not to discourage and until Pebble's rounds truly drop, changes will be slow to come.
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A Clayman,
You can't be that naive.
Nothing is thrown in, it's all factored in and accounted for in determining cost.
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Pat.
I believe Adam meant that the $385.00 cost was all exclusive. I do know that he is NOT naive.
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I spent the week with my wife in Carmel three weeks ago and noticed several things. First, i had a 8:50 tee time as a single at Spanish Bay (my wife likes to ride at some of the pretty courses). We showed up at 8AM and were told that there was one foursome just teeing off, and other than that the course was empty and we could tee off when ready. We passed the foursome on the third tee and palyed the round in about 2.5 hours, which included some pictures, etc as we had the whole course to ourself. Granted, it was a monday, but that's not busy even for the local courses here locally.
Second, regarding Pebble Beach, I called for a tee time for two six months in advance. There was only one opening in a three week period that started before 2:30.
We started at 10AM with a caddie and the round was almost five hours. We didn't mind since it was our first time out there, but there was a huge emphasis on the 4:30 hour round, which is a major push for Pebble Beach Resorts. They had a lot of marshals on the course and told our caddie to speed it up several times. The real reason for our slow play was the other twosome, which had a cart and wanted to know every yardage exactly and where to go, forcing the caddie to basically do double duty for free, which is something he said happens too often. The cart definitely slowed play, as the group in front of us was well ahead. The caddie said there wasa lot of discussion of requiring a forecaddie for people insisted on carts, to speed up play.
Nevertheless, the course was in great condition other than the terrible temporary green on #2. I only saw one worker on the course on the #7 green, and it was well worth the money, although i don't know how often i'd say that.
My only real complaint was that i left our stuff at the bag drop, and ther guy working there acidentally sent my buddys shoes to Spanish Bay, which weren't discovered/recovered until after the round, and basically initially accused us of misplacing them. They gave him a too small back up pair, but he shot a great score for him,so his grumblings about his feet hurting were limited, but they were not very apologetic.
Finally, we there for a few days and never had any trouble getting in to any of the restaurants at either resort, and nothing seemed too crowded, but SPyglass and PEbble Beach definitely were very full courses.
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The last time I was at Pebble I popped into the shop to see what the green free was at that time ($325). So, I then asked what was the fee for the Lodge guests and was told its the same. Lodge guests used to have a lower fee, which was a joke anyway. When I played back in the 90's it was $225, BUT if you were staying at the Lodge it was ONLY $165. At that time the cheapest room was $300-400. That was the only way to get a tee time back then was to be staying at one of their facilities.
Do locals in Del Monte forest still get a discount on green fees.
Patrick,
If anyone went over the cliffs at PB, that is natural selection in action. ::) I don't care how much fog there is, if I'm playing near an ocean I know its there. Besides if they could see their ball and golf I don't see how they could drive off the cliff.
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I'll echo DTaylor18's remarks about Pebble Beach.
I am playing Pebble Beach in July and I made my reservation in February yet I couldn't get a tee time before 1:30 for any of the four dates that I gave them. The other thing is that if you want to play Pebble Beach on a Fri, Sat, or Sun. you have to stay at one of the properties for TWO nights. We took the most inexpensive room we could get and it was still $510 a night at The Inn at Spanish Bay. So for one round at Pebble Beach it is $510 + $510 + $385. But I am the king of retail and always manage to pay the full price, others may be able to get a better deal.
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DTaylor18:
Your point about double duty caddy for free was interesting.
It seems incredibly rude of the folks in the cart to expect such a thing. Does the resort push the caddies to do this? Do the caddies ever feel comfortable saying they liked to concentrate on their paying client's game?
Adam Clayman - any thoughts?
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David,
Exactly why I played Pac Grove when my wife and I were there in December. I love golf, I love architecture, but I also have financial responsibilities to my family, etc. I guess that means I may miss out on some of the great courses of the world.
To know that a facility can get up to $1405 for 2 nights plus one round of golf is rather humbling to me.
Joe
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David- don't worry, you're not the only full retail guy, we were forced to pony up the same thing. We did the same thing and stayed at the Inn as well. It was very nice, but far from cheap. Imagine if you had sprung for the "ocean view" room!
Tim- the caddie aspect was interesting and something we discussed a lot on the course. It was a difficult position becuase my friend and I wanted his full attention and were paying a lot for him ($65 per bag plus tip) but at the same time didn't want to cause any ill will with our playing partners. It was partly a problem because our partners were Japanese and spoke very little english, so communication wasn't easy. It was rude beacuse he had to work almost as hard for them, and because it took away from us. The caddie tried to hint to them to speed it up and do their own work, it may have been a language issue, but they didn't pick up the hints. The caddie said it happens too often, which is why they were all pushing for the mandatory caddie or forecaddie. He gave me the impression that the resort didn't care, as long as the play kept moving. He said that the resort pockets $7 out of the $65, which is one of the reasons the cost of the caddie has gone up. It used to all go to the caddies, but it was less, so the result is closer to a wash, but he said they were very unhappy because they now felt like "corporate employees" rather than "independent contractors", which is what he said they were.
Dan
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Pat- I see it is your "understanding" that two men plunged to their death in a cart.
I know you would ask many questions if told this story so could you please give us the details of this tragic event?
How foggy?
When?
What time of day?
Did anyone witness?
Was PB found lible?
Also, could you answer Mr. Turners question about what Rees jones original designs you have played and how you like them. Thank you.
Last time I played PB i had the same problem with a caddy as he was raking bunkers and reading putts for the others yet was not compensated by them at the end of the round.
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It is incredibly rude of people to make use of someone elses caddy and then not tip them. I prefer not to have caddies when playing, but if someone in the group has one, they will inevitably help me with something so I always give them some money at the end of the round, usually $10-20 depending on how helpful they were.
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Patrick- Even though it is that type of comment which seems to start the denegration of threads, I'll respond by saying that my remark was somewhat jokingly phrased. But I can assure you Patrick, when you plunk down your greenbacks the starter doesn't check to see if you paid for the cart. Ergo, thrown in. ;D
As for the intricacies of the caddy biz at Pebble, it is up to each individual caddie to make sure that if there are people in the group who are gonna lean on him. He needs to let them know up front the forecaddie fee. It was half of the regualr fee but the service is mostly yardages and reads. Completly individualistic for the caddie but with the addition of CSI as management of the caddies, i'm sure any naive kid would just give it away. And if he;s taking away from your interaction and you're paying full frieght. You must say something, first to the caddy and then in the pro-shop. Belive me the squeaky wheel gets the grease because of the fear factor. Best story about this subject was back in the day when it was 45 a bag. Forecaddie was $22.50. Caleb, a true norcal character of the young variety was on the first with his twosome. The other twosome was caddieless. The cost structure was explained to them with the caddiemaster standing right there. They refused service. When one of the gentleman put his ball in the ground and looked up and turned to Caleb and asked "how far to the bunker?" Caleb, quick as a cat, cameback with "twenty-two fifity" and the caddiemaster was almost in tears. ;D
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I think the greatest riposte to give to a golfer sans caddie but who continually requests help, is the classic, "Ask your f***ing golfcart."
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Redanman
This may surprise you to read...but the best thing for a golf course may not be for it to go private and rip the cart paths up.
I'm at a private course that plays less than 5000 rounds a year, and, save for a few mulch paths here and there, we have no cement paths.
In the name of course condition improvement, we may put a continuous path in. The reason:
So the maintanence vehicles have somewhere other than the turf to travel on during their rounds. The amount of traffic, and subsequent wear and tear, they create amazes me.
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That is interesting Andy, I am trying to think if our maintenance guys ever try to stay on the paths.
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Pebble Beach is without a doubt one of the truly great and spectacular courses in the world. The overall setting and challenge of the golf course is hard to beat anyhwhere. It is truly among my favorites and I love with my heart and soul. Have had the opportunity to play it many times over the years.
Now having said that I will never play Pebble Beach again. I played once again this past March (against my better judgment) and would up once again with a 5 hour and 40 minute round of golf.
This was caused primarily by the backup at No. 8 (from the normal tees, not up top) but it never recovered. This was due to having golfers on the course who looked like they had never played the game before and being in carts.
My group had caddies and we were moving along nicely for six holes and then disaster set in.
But hey at $20/hole I doubt the so called marshalls are going to say too much to the slow players.
Patrick:
The cart revenue doesn't matter. The cart fees are included in the Greens Fee unless you are not a guest of the Pebble Beach Resorts, then it is an additional $25. However if you are not a guest at the resort it is almost impossible to get a tee time.
Even if you have a caddie there is no reduction in the Greens Fee. The caddie is an additional $55 plus tip. (Generally $20 to $30)
Best,
Dave
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A Clayman & Dave Miller,
The costs associated with the purchase/lease of carts, their maintainance and a profit are all components of the greens fee, that are factored into the greens fee and are a profit center to the corporation.
If some don't take carts, the profit margin increases.
When a group of purchasers plunks down millions of dollars, the order of business is to run the operation at a profit.
That pursuit comes into conflict with some interests, but, that's the way it is.
A Clayman,
My comment doesn't lead to the denegration of threads,
it leads to accuracy and accountability in posting.
Your initial response was worded such that one was led to believe that PB was being generous, offering a frill or freebee, when none exists.
To some, the lure of Las Vegas is the illusion of freebees,
it's usually cheaper to pay for your room, meals and entertainment, rather then spend significant in time in the casino.
If you inadvertantly made an incorrect or inaccurate post,
a simple revision or correction will suffice to set the record straight.
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How much does it cost PB per cart, per round, including maintenance...? More than $5-10? Pretty miniscule given the green fee for a two ball, $700+
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P_Turner,
If you can tell us if they purchase or lease their carts, and the duration or cycle of either, and any extraneous terms connected to the sale/lease, it could probably be figured quickly.
But, there is great diversity with respect to how clubs account for operating and capital expenditures in their budgets, making comparisons very difficult.
At most clubs, you'll find the cart rate for 18 holes is above
$5-$10.
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Patrick:
The carts at PB are electric. If one does not take the cart it does not affect the Profit Margin at all. They have planned for so many cart for each day and if they are not used the only incremental cost (since they are already there) is the cost of recharging them. However if they are not used the cost of recharging them is probably a lot less than Paul Turner's estimate of $5 - $10. Probably more like a few pennies.
Thus, it is my belief that the rounds are priced as if everyone takes a cart and if it not used it makes no difference because it is being paid for anyway and the incremental cost for a cart used or not used is the re-charging cost which is peanuts ;D in the grand scheme of what golf is all about.
Best
Dave
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Dave Miller,
I don't know how it works at your club, but many clubs have labor costs associated with cleaning, washing, and repairing of carts at the end of the day. If a cart is not used, those costs are never incurred.
One also has to figure in the cost of the cart from a purchase or leased basis and the shelf life of a cart in determining daily rental fees applicable to each cart.
What is the cost of a cart for 18 holes at Charles River ?
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Any way the cart cost is calculated, I agree with Dave, it's got to be peanuts in comparison with the green fee.
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Dave Miller,
I don't know how it works at your club, but many clubs have labor costs associated with cleaning, washing, and repairing of carts at the end of the day. If a cart is not used, those costs are never incurred.
Patrick, the labor costs you've described are largely fixed costs , which the club or course incurs whether there are 150 carts to service at the end of the day, or 160. The way you've described things, these costs would need to be more variable to result in cost savings to the club if carts go unused. Alas, I think that is unlikely.
As to the recovery of the costs of a cart via cart fees, that is a decision made when the carts are purchased or leased (i.e., is the club making an acceptable return on its capital by acquiring the carts assuming the net cash flow - cart rentals less repair and maintenance - that will originate from them). But for Pebble, since carts are not broken out as a separate fee, they'd have to look at the total they could charge a golfer hypothetically without carts and with carts. Taking the difference between that hypothetical they'd come up with the additional cash flow ascribed to the carts (pre-expenses). As Paul and Dave say, my guess is that it is peanuts.
Pebble is not a government contractor charging cost + x%, they are the purveyors of a luxury good that is in demand even at sky-high prices. Their prices are set such that the course is sold out each day, and their costs are set such that customers feel they are playing a first-class place...no more, and maybe just a little less (else customers will think the price premium is not warranted).
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Dave Miller,
What is the cost of a cart for 18 holes at Charles River ?
Patrick:
$17.00 for 18 holes. If a guest is brought out and takes a cart this is in addition to the green fees. If a member or a guest walks they don't pay for a cart.
Best,
Dave
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Guys
It's all called "bundling." Same as Microsoft Office or McDonald's Happy Meals. Simplify the purchase decision (and the "manufacturing" one) by offerring an all inclusive price. This doesn't mean, however, that there is not a cost or even a "price" to the individual compenents, it is just that these prices are disguised through the bundling process. Welcome to the micro-economics of the New World Order! Enjoy.
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Pat, please let the cart thing go.This is not the post for you to change the path of the discusssion. That policy has been in place at Pebble Beach properties for more than a decade. It really does not matter and is not a significant issue in this fact situation. Yes it does at 99% of the clubs in America. I wrote a long post yesterday that was in the same vein as Dave Millers, except the corporate outing, beginner golfer rather than #8 was the theme. I descided not to post it for whatever reason. those of us who love the course, the area and what it means to the world of golf have been hurt by the current management of pebble Beach. The japanese respected the game and the property more than this group. I frankly feel this means as much to more people that the moves or lack thereof of the USGA.
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Guys
It's all called "bundling." Same as Microsoft Office or McDonald's Happy Meals. Simplify the purchase decision (and the "manufacturing" one) by offerring an all inclusive price. This doesn't mean, however, that there is not a cost or even a "price" to the individual compenents, it is just that these prices are disguised through the bundling process. Welcome to the micro-economics of the New World Order! Enjoy.
Unlike Happy Meals or MS Office, I don't believe you can choose your puchases ala carte at PB. You can buy Excel separately (at a premium price), but you can't buy a round without a cart at PB. So the lack of the ala carte option makes this different from the bundling concepts offered elsewhere.
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but you can't buy a round without a cart at PB.
Kevin,
This is absolutely not true. Green fees for a non-guest at PB are $380. A cart is $25 extra and is not required. Caddies are also not required if you choose to walk. Walking-and-carrying/pull carts are perfectly acceptable at PB. Cart fee IS included if staying at the resort and of course you are not required to ride.
Dave M,
It is not nearly impossible to play PB w/o staying at the resort. I did it and several others here haved said they've done it. It's even easier these days since 9/11 when tee times at PB became plentiful (it's picked up recently). Simply call the day before and you'd be surprised at the openings available (singles will do better).
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Adam Clayman -
My round at Pebble was my first and I had a wonderful time. I was treated well by the staff, there was not a small circus on the tee and I had wonderful playing partners (one friend and one random person). It is for this reason that I always get confused when I hear people complaining about the Pebble atmosphere, slow rounds, horrible golfers, etc. I didn't have any of that experience.
I thought it was worth what I paid. It cost me $525 (half of a $400 room and one green fee). Now - that being said, I viewed the event as a once-a-decade type of thing and would need a pretty special reason to go back and drop a similar amount of $$$.
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Dan Grossman --
Exactly. I had an almost identical experience at Pebble Beach last month. It was my first visit there, I played two rounds and had the time of my life.
My wife and I booked one round more than a year in advance; I asked several weeks before we arrived if I could get on as a single by walking up to the pro shop on Sunday morning, and the reservation specialist immediately got me a tee time. Their policy does not allow you to make tee times for two rounds at Pebble Beach unless you stay three nights, but they were very willing to fit me into an opening.
When the weather looked ominous for our first round, I asked if there was a possibility that my wife could be added to my second tee time on Sunday; the pro shop said they didn't have another spot for her, but we should keep checking back with them. By the time we teed off Friday they had reshuffled some groups and let us know we could both play on Sunday, too.
The golf course was full all weekend despite the iffy weather, but the staff was as accomodating as they could possibly be about getting us out twice.
Pace of play was about five hours, possibly due to a little rain both days (we had sun both days, too.) A majority of groups used carts, and there's no question in my mind that keeping them on the path adds at least a half-hour to your round, even though we walked both days.
By the way, I never saw an alternate tee on #8. Both days I had the blind tee shot over the ridge from the traditional teebox -- I would have hated to miss that experience.
I don't know if Patrick's story about the two gentlemen plunging to their death on #8 is apocryphal or not, but after having walked to the edge of the cliff on that hole and realizing the drop to the beach was even longer than it looks on TV, I can see why they don't want carts on that fairway. They can't put a fence on that cliff -- it would obviously ruin the greatest second shot in golf. Sure, a reasonably coordinated adult should be able to keep from driving over that cliff, even in the fog, but at my course a few years ago I came across a cart that had driven nose-first into a creek and was submerged up the seats. The driver of that buggy was perfectly capable of driving to his or her doom at Pebble #8.
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One of the great things about these pebble discussions is how the oversall beauty of the place and its greatness just blow people away the first few times one is there. It took me 7 to 10 trips before the first real critical eye was cast. I genuine natural beauty of the place and its place in the world of golf is there for all to discover and enjoy. I have it the moment I take the exit till I pull away. Unfortunately, I have been so many times now I see thing which we discuss on here which gives one the impression we do not like or appreciate it. that is far from the case. We just see some tarnish on it where others just see the beautiful gift from the gods. I do hope another group buys it soon and really pushes back the other direction.
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Dan- Agreed wholeheartedly! I continue to recommend to anyone when the topic comes up, that it is worth it, if only once or especially once.
As for the duration of the rounds and the apparent differing experiences, I say one has to go with the flow. If your out there for a long time, how could anyone complain? If your out there for a quick round, there is part of me that thinks you may have smelled the roses too quickly. especially at those rates.
RJ was put in a tenable position when Clint made waves about the pace. The parent company came down with a directive to pick-up the pace. The integrated marketing plan was probably all RJ's idea(?). From the painting of 4;30 on the range balls to the notation on the confirmation letter, to pace. It is almost an unwinable position in real life, but in golf, anything is possible and leave it to a golfer (a real golfer) to do what is asked of them.
I had many a discussion with some of the pro's and asst's about the best pace of play policies and while they are behind the psychology of warnings ahead of time, they want the communication between the marshal and the group, so when they do do something good, the marshal can come up to them and stroke their egos.
I will always know that most communication with a marshal is counter-productive but if your target market likes the mollycoddeling? All they can do is to try to give them a later tee time and let what few real golfers set the pace.
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No slap Bob. That trek back to the path on 6 is almost as bad as going straight up that hill. Not a bad idea to let the lunatics run the asylum on that hole and allow them off the path. Except for that pesky little cliff that has seen it's share of accidents.
I 've heard stories about when Pebble allowed carts off the path. The turf was virtually ruined with all the abuse.
Bob- You very much need to play in the owners tourney (it has a special name). On that day they just ask that you stay off the greens with the carts, but beyond that it's truely ANYWHERE. ;D
You must be referring to The Swallows tournament. Or if it is in late August/early September, The Pebble. There are NO rules for those events.
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EJ.
I am afraid you are wrong. The Owners Tournament to which Adam referred is for the Partners of the Lone Cypress Corp.
who have a two day event on the first Monday and Tuesday in June. They can drive ANYWHERE.
The Swallows is a totally different tournament.
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"All they can do is to try to give them a later tee time and let what few real golfers set the pace." -- Clayman
Pace is set more by starting times and course set-up than by golfers. We all think it is the "slow" group, but this simply isn't the case. Virtually all "slow play" (or clogged courses) are the result of poor management on when to start golfers. Groups need to be paced, whereas most management is "...hit when ready off the first tee..." WRONG! That is an immediate way to load up and give the appearance of slow play through waits at many points. The scientist of this is Bill Yates, a process engineer and now president of Pace Manager Systems. I have spent quite a bit of time with Bill understanding this issue -- he has also consulted with Pebble, TOC and many, many others.
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Forrest- My comment was based on perceived procedures from comments made to me by certain groups. While they were two years ago, an about face has probably occured.
The starter @ PB will not let the next group swing away until the appropriate time. Plus, the emperical evidence from those who've teed off early proves it only takes one asshole to slow down the entire place.
When I suggested that they try a non-verbal communication system so that the marshal's talk isn't counter-productive, it was explained to me that they want the inter-action because they feel the need, the need to ass kiss.