Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: TEPaul on February 08, 2002, 04:00:25 PM
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On the recent Riviera thread somebody said that although it's commenable that the USGA seems to want to take the US Open to more daily fee tracks that they shouldn't sink so low as to take it to Torrey Pines. I know Pebble and Bethpage are well known and great daily fee tracks but after that I really draw a blank.
What are some of America's great daily fee tracks? I never thought I would ever stoop to something this low myself (not the daily fee tracks, mind you) but I'm going to ask you to RANK and RATE in ORDER, numerical order, of best architecture and infrastructure the top ten daily fee tracks in America worthy of a US Open.
(Whew, that only hurt for a moment)!
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TEPaul:
You mean REAL daily-fee courses, not resort courses.
In that vein, I offer you:
1. Bethpage Black
2. Cog Hill #4 - Dubsdread
3. Torrey Pines (although after someone shot a 61 there today, I don't know about its viability for an Open)
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was the 61 on the south today? tiger shot 77. 18 hole is a complete bore, really hope they don't get the open. Pinehurst #2
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Dye's courses are the only ones I can think of off top of my head. Kiawah, Blackwolf (composite or River), Whistling (not for its crowd accomodating facilities however). I wish I could come up with another worthy muni like Torrey.
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brad:
got bad info. the 61 was NOT shot at Torrey Pines, but in
South Africa!
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Are PH and Pebble "daily fee tracks"? They aren't for most golfers (some people have house payments to meet) but anyone who is patient can play Bethpage. I assume Torrey Pines is in the same league. After seeing the new So course, I hope the Open isn't held there but I'm glad the USGA is considering it. Are there any other Bethpages?
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RJ's comment on Dye courses has some merit. I think that
Bulle Rock in MD. was put together with an eye on attracting
a big tournament down the road. I bet we'll see more publicly-
accessible courses used in the future. Brad Klein wrote about this very topic, but I can't seem to locate the article.
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Being a Chicagoan and always having had a special place
in my heart for Dubsdread, when the USGA first proposed
hosting a US Open on a true public course, the people in
Chicago got all excited, because most feel that Cog Hill #4
would be worthy. ;)
However, after having had the pleasure of touring around
the Black, I certainly understand that choice. No longer
did I feel that Dubs was the BEST true public course. :'(
Instead, I now believe that Dubsdread is the second-best
truly public course in the good 'ol USA.! :)
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I hope this post continues not so much to rank but to bring attention to daily fee courses with great strategic strength. I am only famiiar with Pebble and Pinehurst 2 that belong in this club. I hope there are many others. I do not think Torry Pines is one of them.
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TEPaul,
Shouldn't we have some collective experience under our belts relative to the revised Torrey Pines before making any judgements on its worthyness ??
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If you are going to count Pebble and Pinehurst, you've got to count Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes also.
Ghost Creek at Pumpkin Ridge has been mentioned by the USGA on more than one occasion. At times they have talked of a combo course with Witch Hollow (private), but at others they have talked about lengthing Ghost Creek and using it.
Given that Tiger shot 77 and Lefty shot 75 at the South Course today, I think that it meets the USGA requirements. :o
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The Bayonet, check the Tour Qualifying scores and they don't play the back tees. Plenty of parking on room for corporate on the Blackhorse course.
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There are three courses that jump out in my mind:
Bethpage Black
Bulle Rock -- although I don't like it, the course is definitely hard.
But the one that has not been mentioned is:
Beechtree
I personally think it's really difficult and that's not to say that I did not play/score well there because I actually did. With the necessary fairway tightening and a few new tees to get the length to about 7350 yards, it's all the course you'd ever want. This is especially considering that they can get the course hard and fast without too much difficulty. Those greens would give the pro's fits in my opinion. Having made only one visit to play, I may be a bit bold in my talk, but Beechtree's a real handful in my mind.
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Hasn't anyone out there played Dubsdread?
I figured there would be more comments about its
qualifications ... ??? ???
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With all due respect to Tom Doak's fine work at Beechtree, which I like a lot, it could never host an Open. Dubsdread has never been played back by the professionals, it is more than worthy back there. I have logged maybe 40-50 rounds there, at least as many as Olympic Lake (See other thread ;) )Torrey probably can get the job done now. The Black, we'll see how the greens hold up. Not many true daily fee.
As for Pinehurst, Pebble and the like at $300+, those are not daily fee in my book. Maybe a new category, "daily wage"? For any Joe making $30k a year, that's way more than a full day's take home pay!
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What about Crumpin-Fox? The crowds might be a little problem, but I certainly not logistically impossible.
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The Dubsdread is a great golf course. Lots of room to make it as big as you want, a super mixture of long and short par 4's. The 14th par 3 with a wildly convoluted green where you can aim at the upper right to reach a lower left pin. And throughout the course wonderful greens complexes with bunkers tightly cut into lobes (?) of the greens, most of which are somewhat cloverleaf in design, so that what look like large greens in effect become several small greens closely protected by deep bunkers. The course has excellent terrain and a two loop routing where the holes run in different directions and the tees are close to the greens. It would be a super course to play every day, if a bit wearing. It would be great for a US Open because they are already prepared for a large, prestigious tournament every year.
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There are 2-3 courses on the RTJ Trail in Alabama that are probably as worthy as Torrey Pines: Grand National-Links, Cambrian Ridge, Capital Hill- Senator. All have the length and can be set-up to yield whatever score the USGA deems appropriate. They probably also have enough open space to handle the corporate necessities and the crowds. Put a couple of million into any of them as at Bethpage and I think that they could provide a good venue. However, weather and politics probably will never allow that to happen.
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Having only played Dubsdread once (and that was about 10 years ago), I would say that it could certainly be turned into a US Open worthy venue. How high do you want the rough? How fast do you want the greens? Bunkers galore, length, strategic tee shots for the right approach into greens. I think the course stacks up well, and would serve the Open proud.
And like BillM said, they are already prepared to host a large tournament due to the Advil/Motorola/Whoever-The-Sponser-Is-Now Western Open.
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Gentlemen:
Within the broad category of daily fee you have some fine distinctions.
First, there are taxpayer owned facilities (i.e. Bethpage Black, Torrey Pines, etc.). When you really begin to analyze what is available in the USA under this heading the pickings are indeed slim from a "course worthy" consideration before you get into crowd and logistical concerns.
Second, you have privately owned but available to the public on nearly 100 percent basis. The examples are Pebble beach and Pinehurst #2 are two of the best known.
Third, you then have facilities that are semi-private. These are facilities that permit public play at certain times. They may have a membership of some number or are connected to a facility (resort) which permits outside play within certain parameters.
From a personal level I read in Golfweek that Bandon is being considered for a USGA Mid-Amateur. I would like to see the Open go there because I think the course has the muscle (reduce the two par-5 on the back nine) and wherewithal to host an Open. However, it's remote location is probably not going to permit that to happen.
I'll throw in another course that probably few have played and it's located in the west. The Golf Club at Thanksgiving Point (Lehi, UT), just south of Salt Lake City, is long enough (way over 7,000 plus yards), has a metro area nearby and the Johnny Miller designed course could be modified beyond its initial difficulty to host an Open. The catch? The present owners are Mormons and the course is closed on Sundays (last I checked).
I'll reserving comment on Torrey Pines until I see the results of this week's tour event and when I visit there later this year. ;)
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Lou Duran,
I would imagine that the difficulty in hosting a USOPEN in Alabama in JUNE has more to do with its rejection due to climate rather than politics.
I think the USGA would love to show the flag in the southeast and southwest, but maintaining firm and fast conditions in southern climates in JUNE is almost IMPOSSIBLE.
When the USGA held the Mid-Amateur at Anandale in Jackson,
Mississippi, in OCTOBER, the greens were difficult to maintain to spec, and the club almost lost some of them. The greens also changed in condition as the tournament progressed, such that the greens pre or early tournament were dramatically different from the greens toward the end of the tournament.
In addition, the greens had to be syringed frequently during play. At match play, one could argue equitable treatment, medal play presents another problem.
Let's be practical, not biased. Holding a USGA competition in the deep south in JUNE is not a PRUDENT idea.
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:o I suppose I don't conform with most of you, or you have fallen into the USGA mind set. I don't equate length with good, and difficulty with great test. The USGA has moved that way recently. What was it Frank Hannigan said about the best Open during his watch as Executive Director, 1974. Best course, Merion, best players Nicklaus and Trevino.
I say stick them out there on the back tees at Pacific Dunes or Bandon Dunes in the wind, it is a good test, and one's length will matter little. That will identify the best players no?
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Lynn:
I agree with you. Length isn't the only criteria. Of course,
it needs to be long enough to challenge, but I would much
rather see the big boys play at Merion again, than see them
hit Pro V Tens to the 600-yard par 4's of the future ...
Hint to USGA/ R and A - if you don't get your act together,
Tim Finchem says the Tour will take over the job of supervision.
Memo to Mr. Finchem - please rein in the golf ball!
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Paul,
I hate to go against the tide, but I would have to say that I don't think Dubsdread is either the genuine muni that most people are looking for here, nor is it good enough even if we are going to extend our search into high end daily-fee land.
Pebble and Pinehurst may be pricey, but at least one can pick up the phone and arrange to play there no matter what. The only reason a course as good as Bethpage is a municipal facility, is because of the Depression. The whole complex was a public works project. Perhaps, with Nick doing a course for NYC in the Bronx, and Dye doing a course here or there for a dollar, we are on the way to, for the first time, creating very high level, truly public facilities. But let's not have the USGA force the issue. 10-15 years from now, there may be several munis worth holding the event. Let's be patient and grateful for the increase in quality in the high-end daily fee market.
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Jeff:
How come you don't think that Dubsdread is worthy? ???
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Lynn,
There may be a legitimate concern that with little or no alteration to existing golf courses the USOPEN would turn into a desert like shooting gallery, losing its uniqueness and popularity.
If substantial winds are the only impediment to scoring, who would risk a calm week, and the money ?
I think Geoff's article touched on the basic problem. That the USGA may be burning the candle at both ends, and that usually leads to disastrous results.
Someone has to take a stand and stop the distance trend, and as I see it, the more the clock keeps running, the less likely they will be in achieving their goal in establishing reasonable limits.
I'm both puzzled and concerned. Puzzled as to why the delay in creating an intelligent solution, and concerned for the USGA's ability to maintain its leadership and role as protector of the game.
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Patrick:
You bring up a good point.
Kemper Lakes hosted the '89 PGA Championship. That summer
I must have played it 15 times before the PGA, and, each
and every time me and my buddies played it, we played from
the tips.
Well, the PGA came in and played it from about the blue
tees - I remember the grand stands on #17 were sitting on
the gold tee!
Anyhow, this was a brutally hard course, and whenever you
played it, the wind just howled!
The week of the PGA, it was 80 degrees and sunny and not
a whiff of wind! The pro's destroyed the place, and since
then, the reputation of the place suffered tremendously.
So the lack of its usual wind really cost Kemper.
It fell off the Golf Digest Top 100 list the very next time the
list came out.
IMHO, although I don't love it or anything, Kemper Lakes is
the second-best public course in the Chicago area (after
Dubs). Nothing else even comes close.
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What about you guys who are high on Barona? Doesn't sound like Todd would design a pushover...
What if San Fran ever got its head out of ... & fixed up Harding? Weren't they thinking about holding the Tour Championship there? It must be at least challenging.
Matt Ward -
Wouldn't 7000 yards in Utah be pretty much a driver-PW course for you? :)
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Of all events, the US Open is the one least affected by site. The set up is usually narrow fairways, long rough, and greens on the verge of cracking they're so hard. I think they painted them at Hazeltine for TV, but they were just what they wanted for playing conditions.
Give the USGA 7300 yards (or equivalent if at altitude) and they could deliver an event worthy of Major status with two years of prep and the requisite spending allowed.
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George
For perspective re:Utah
In Colorado a 6850 course was basically 3-wood wedge for me and Matt is quite a bit longer than me. You can't build a course solely on length at altitude. It really helps you understand strategy and the effects of equipment to play there for more than a little while.
In CO Sea Level
PW 8i 150yds
6i 4i 200yds
2i 3w 250 yds
3w D (Maybe) 300 yds
100 yds left out because it all depends on trajectory with more than 50* loft
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GeorgeP:
The Golf Club at Thanksgiving Point plays from the tips 7,728 yards and if necessary you can stretch it a bit further to compensate for the higher elevation. I agree with JohnC other elements of prepping can be added with other elements to test the big boys.
I'm not saying the course is the "perfect" option for an Open but what is?
Even Bethpage Black (a course I love very much) has issues with a number of greens being flat or relatively unchallenging.
I believe if you played Bandon from the tips and changed the two par-5's on the back side you would have a good test -- a par-70 in the range of 7,200 along the unrpedictable coastline of Oregon! WOW!!! ;D
The issue at Bandon? Having the wherewithal to have support facilities for what a modern day Open has. I personally think it's worth doing. Years ago the same argument made about Pinehurst #2 (remote location, June weather in the South, blah, blah, blah). Now, Pinehurst is fixed on the unofficial rota.
Bulle Rock is also a possibility but I wonder if the USGA will stage an Open event on a Dye course? I know there are some people (i.e. Mike Cirba, among others) who don't particularly like the course.
I agree with Bill V that higher altitude locations do present issues but it's not impossible. I mean let's not forget the USGA has used Cherry Hills and the last time they were there the winning total was 285 at the '78 Open (remember Andy North!) and the '85 PGA (Hubert Green) with a 278 total.
GC at Thanksgiving has the issue I stated before -- no Sunday golf permitted but if St. Andrews could make the adjustment I see no reason why it could not be done here.
One last note -- when people say Torrey Pines / Soth is 7,600 yards I always wonder are they really playing the ENTIRE course or is that figure more for PR hype? Usually, many of the tour events I've ever seen have not played the max on all four days. The tour staff do make concessions to weather and other considerations (let's not make it toooo hard!). ;)
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I was watching a tape on TGC of Cherry hillls the other day (Senior Open '93?) and they called #11 (595ish) unreachable. I think I hit it with 1 or 2 iron the last time I played. #10 there is 460 and it was sand wedge even in 1995.
Altitude is funny stuff. Drive the ball solid and high and Katie bar the door.
Jim Engh built a very nice muni for Castle Rock called Red Hawk Ridge. I played it with 976R Titleist and Maxfli Elite (Not exactly hopped up technology), had a good driving day the one time I played it in 1999. I hit 3 par 5's with wedge (2nds, not 3rds, smarties :D ), seriously. Carying sentinel bunkers I was in position A. I can't even begin to keep up with Matt. You just can't design around that kind of length. Playing at altitude is a preview of more and more technology.
It's probably already too late.
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Patrick:
We are all painfully aware down here of the USGA's "too hot to play" argument. Apparently the NCAA was not prudent in its decision to hold the Division I championship on the Grand National Links course (Opelika, AL) during the first week of June, 2000. Was Southern Hills that bad last year? I carry my own bag during the summer, generally in the early afternoon and I am not the worse for wear. I would hope that these younger, superior athletes and their caddies are able to get around with minimal jeopardy to their health.
BTW, I am not advocating going to AL for the Open. My original reply was to suggest that there are other public venues as worthy as Torrey Pines. However, it would be a nice gesture for the USGA to rotate the Open throughout the country once or twice every decade to trully public courses such as Bethpage. I believe that there are enough of these courses that with $3 million in renovations, they would provide very suitable venues.
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Lou Duran,
My position had nothing to do with athleticism, rather the ability to maintain fast and firm conditions on the greens.
Venturi in 64 was a study in survival, an athletic achievement, playing 36 holes the final day, in hot, humid conditions.
I was talking about the survivability of the greens, not the players.
If one or ten players drop out, no big deal.
If one or ten greens drop out, disaster !
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Patrick:
Generally speaking, Southern bent grass greens are in good shape through June. The real stress sets in during July and August. Granted, as a result of three or four of weeks of preparation and US Open play they would be further stressed, which could result in poor conditions for the regular players after the tournament. I think that most of these players would feel that the honor of holding the tournament and the financial largess for improvements to the course that it brings more than offsets the sacrifice. In any event, there are new strains of bent that are highly heat-resistant, and as you know from your Florida experience, there are bermuda hybrids which come close to performing as well as bent. And as I recall, June is a fairly rainy month up north. Holding the Open up there is not a guarantee for firm and fast conditions. Again, I don't have a problem with most US Open venues. I loved the tournaments at Shinnecock, Baltusrol, Merion, and Oakmont. But if the tournament is going to Bethpage, and maybe Torrey Pines, bring it down here some time. It has been done in the past and I don't recall its reputation being tainted (the tournament's or the USGA's) as a result.
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Lou:
There is nothing wrong with some of the courses you mentioned in Alabama (i.e. Grand National Links) possibly hosting a future Open or PGA. The weather issue is less, if a factor at all, given previous locations for major events and the manner by which staffs are able to keep the turf alive.
I agree the Open should rotate since the Northeast has had more than its fair share of Opens. I would hope the USGA would keep its eyes open for all possibilities because public golf sites do exist for such an event.
A few years ago if you had mentioned Bethpage Black and the US Open in the same sentence many people would be on the floor laughing. They're not laughing anymore ... ;)
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Wild Horse in Gothenberg, NE would be wonderful, a 30 mile an hour wind, greens about as firm as an asphalt parking lot and a great golf course. Add a few tees to add some length to a few of the par 4's and the pros wouldn't know how to play the course. Most of them have never seen conditions like that. Plenty of parking around the course, unfortunately no people so the parking wouldn't be needed.
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My only beef about Dubsdread is that only foursomes can book tee times, not threesomes or twosomes. What's a single to do? Just come on out and hope someone doesn't show.
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shivas:
Glad to hear someone else liked the old Dubs better.
As much as I like it today, there was just something about
that sand, and the forest that used to be to the left front
of the 13th green, etc. etc.
It looks much prettier today. But is it better? Not in my
book.
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I agree with SPDB, and wonder if anyone else has any comments on Crumpin-Fox Club, in western Ma. It is a very well respected layout and has been much improved from a condition standpoint in the last two years. They have also added some tees and rebuilt some bunkers. The course is extremely challenging and with longer rough and faster greens would prove to be a great test for even the best players inthe world. What do you think?
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Just thought it would be interesting to bring this thread up one year later and see if anyone has found anything new.
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I may get some flak for this but I think The Concord-Monster has the length and with the right prearation could host a U.S. Open. Do I think the course should host one? Probably not. Location is way out of the way, too much water, and you'd have to prep the course for it.
This is the only daily fee that I could think of that wasn't mentioned.
If Torrey Pines were not near a major city and not on cliffs overlooking the Pacific Ocean they wouldn't even play the Southern California Mixed Senior Championship there.
Jeff F.
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I'll throw out Jeff Brauer's Colbert Hills in Manhattan, KS. ~7500 yards and is supposed to be TOUGH. Great prairie location/look, seemingly unlimited room for tents, in a college town for hotel space and nearby Topeka would house many other fans bused in. No much more remote than Pinehurst.
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K. Czescik:
I've played Crumpin-Fox and concur with your thoughts about the quality of the course -- it's likely the finest public course in Mass. However, a major event like the Open? I think you're pushing it a bit unless the fairways were as wide as a church pews. The first few holes on the course would be a great way for professionals to make a good share of birdies.
I do like the course (the 8th is a gem of a par-5), but there'd have to be some major league tweaking in order to tackle the world's best.
Scott B:
You mentioned Colbert Hills. All I can say is the layout is a tiger and when you add Kansas wind you can clearly have an Open if people could handle the adventure in getting to the center of the USA! ;)
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Sheesh, with all the rain at Torrey Pines this week and the state of the rough, the USGA has to be pleased with the prospect of the Open in '08. Watching these guys hack it out of there makes it seem like an Open.....