Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: TEPaul on February 18, 2003, 07:25:51 AM
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Now and then George Bahto pops up and says again that in his opinion a redan or two should be built today at an increased length of maybe 240-250-260 yds. That's longer than any original golden age redan I'm aware of.
Or is it? There're a number of golden age original par 3s in the Philly district, certainly not necessarily redans that were remarkably long for their time. Certainly they would include PVGC's #5 (with an effective playing value (Jim Finegan's words) of about 255 yds). There was Geo Thomas's #4 Whitemarsh G.C. #4 probably in the same yardage category or longer. Flynn's Philly C.C's #15 (with a playing value of maybe 245+ as it's way uphill (I guess that means there was a super long redan!). Maybe the longest was Flynn's Rolling Green's #10 at 260 originally designed but about 20 yds shorter now (and also playing slightly uphill!).
Without question, and documented by Geo Crump's well known "shot testing" preconstruction design perscription, the par 3 driver design was something that was very much a clear concept back then even for the very best of players!! Not to mention the design iteration for #14 (that was not used) that was one of the most exact "cape hole" copies I've ever seen. That one looked to be a forced carry over water of maybe 240 yds but downhill. (the optional way of playing that hole was about 300 yds with fairway around to the left of the water).
We see nothing like that today though. Obviously today's tour players and very good players hit the ball so far and their new age 3 woods are so long that even in the neighborhook of 300 yds would probably still not require a driver from some of them.
But should the concept be brought back, even for the very best players? There's no question that the driver par 3 was a valid and designed concept in the earlier years even for the best players.
Personally, although I don't hit it far for a low handicapper, even on super long par 3s pulling out a driver just felt weird and uncomfortable to me. I tended to go with a 1 iron and try to hit a more accurate low running draw and just sneak up on the hole with a short chip and putt (all those old super long Philly par 3s had substantial fairway run-up area!).
Should the bona fide driver par 3 be brought back in design today? It's an interesting animal clearly right on the edge of par where many of the best holes in the world seem to reside! Doing it today again would really only require certain considerations in a routing sense. In other words plenty of tee placement elasticity.
Should it be done again, if one a few?
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I have hit drivers on 16 at CPC and 16 at Carnoustee. I must say that I do love a strong long par 3. However I am more confortable when the hole is set up for a 3 wood or 5 wood(2 iron). I am not sure that day in and day out a driver par 3 brings more to the course. One might consider there are already 4 or 5 times in a round when one needs to have a similar accuracy with the driver to hit a 20 yard or less fairway position. Of course the same is true 2 or 3 times a round with a 2 iron or 3 wood. while the challenge is great I find a 3 wood to be the maximum that I would like to see on a par 3 outside of specific tournement situations.
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Tom Paul,
I say bring it back, but sparingly and only in conjunction with firm and fast maintenance.
I can only think of two par-threes where I've pulled a driver and both were by Ross: the 13th at French Lick's Hill Course (wintertime into a breeze) and at Cherokee CC in Knoxville hard by a railroad track (over twenty years ago - paging John Stiles to identify the hole). Bear in mind that I rarely play from the tips.
There is something immensely satisfying about making the type of pitch and putt par on such holes as you described.
I'm not too sure about the need for tee elasticity - nothing wrong with making everybody play from, say 240 to 270 yards if the short hitter has some fairway and can readily make four.
Regards,
Mike
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Tom:
Okay to have driver length par 3's if 2 conditions exist:
1) Green is VERY big and you can roll the ball on from any angle (i.e. no front bunkers and no soft/watered surrounds.
2) Green is aggressively contoured for pin positions with varying degrees of difficulty but not so severe that being above the hole = "no chance". I'm all for distance control but we're talking driver, here, after all.
FYI, Merion #17 from the back was a driver hole in the golden age and, for many, also in the post-WWII era (until metal woods came of age).
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How do you design a Driver par 3 and take into acount the wind? If you design it a certain length, assume no wind and it blows then you've got an unreachable par 3. How much does that suck!
If you take into account the prevailing wind and you get none, then you don't have a driver par 3. I like the 240 yrd par 3 that makes you hit 3w/1-3I and if the wind blows then you gotta reach for the driver.
#3 at Barona is a great hole. 255+. But a little downhill, a little down wind, plays somewhat shorter. Green is huge and very easy to run the ball up.
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Yes. Bring 'em back.
Open in front. Bounce-inable, for shorter hitters.
The thrill of the day, if you hit the green.
I believe the par-3 17th at Interlachen played at 270 during Bobby Jones's victory there in 1930. That must have been a driver for him, eh?
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Mike,
The par 3 at Cherokee is the 12th. It plays 243 yards from the back I believe with the OB railroad tracks right and the creek left. As a former employee at Cherokee CC I can attest to the challenges the 12th brings to the table; and a par 3 of that length works well on that course due to the fact there are so many other holes (par 4's and 5's) where pulling the driver out is not adviseable. My typical play on the hole was either a 3 iron to the front and slight right for a front pin or a draw one iron to the back center for a back or back left pin.
Mike, do you keep current with the goings on at Cherokee? I have not been up there in almost two years. Do you know anything about the status of the implementation of Ron Prichard's restoration master plan? That plan could be a whole thread unto itself.
Thanks,
Keith.
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chipoat,
Who says the green has to be big? The aforementioned 13th green at French Lick is relatively small and narrow and heavily contoured as discussed in this site's course review. I agree with the absence of water, but wouldn't automatically exclude hazards - strategy should provide for a good vs. bad "leave."
john f,
Are there par four holes in GB that are not reachable in two when the wind howls? What's so bad about a one-shotter that's not reachable into a stiff breeze?
Regards,
Mike
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I find that they are already back. As Tom points out maybe not for the pros or most of them, but surely the test of up and down is just as good a test as hitting a high cut or low draw with a driver to a well gaurded par 3. I do do it often since I find I can control the driver anywhere from 215 into the wind to 285 downwind. And there are alot of newer par 3's in the 275 range here in the land of thin air and big knockers. TY
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I'd like to see it used very sparingly perhaps like this:
Slightly downhill - size of the green wouldn't bother me either way as long as it has tough undulations (preferably a diagonal spine running thru it so you would often get double breaks.
I'd like to see the green bunkered tightly on each side to protect it against the good (and/or long) player but that there would be a fairly open approach area short of the green for the player who did not or could not reach the green. This gives him a better chance to get up and down while the player trying to get on to the putting surface has to contend with the side to side bunkering.
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Mike Hendren:
I guess I do.
But that's just my opinion.
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Mike,
The only issue I would have if that wind is the prevailing. Every now & then an unreachable par 3 because the wind is howling is OK. Only you must have a place to bail out and put the ball someplace.
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I've done a similar sort of hole on a course near Montreal. At 230 yard, "officially" it's a par three, but it's designed like a driveable "par four": A small, peninsula green, with a large bail-out short right.
It's supposed to mess with the golfer's mind. It's suicide to go for it, but it's a "par three", so....
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Only driver par 3 I've played in recent memory is the 13th at Pumpkin Ridge's Ghost Creek course. It's 234 from the tips and considerably downhill, but the wind was stiff (and cool) in my face, and the back tees are back a little, where the green can't be seen, if my memory serves. I hit a 3/4 driver to keep it lower, since the tees are elevated, hit it solid to about 15 feet behind the pin. Not much roll at the mostly damp PR, either.
I do think that errant drives on driver par 3's shouldn't be too terribly punished. This hole was fairly forgiving wide of the green.
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Jeremy Glenn:
Since I haven't played the hole, I can't comment with authority, but...........
A par 3 that's "suicide" to try and knock one's tee ball on the green and 2 putt for par???
Not for me, thanks.
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The ninth at PG is 218 yds. But faces west and the wind off the ocean is blocked at green level but up about 20 feet the wind is a blowin. It plays 235 most of the time and is a driver for most mere mortals. There is reallly no bailout, save for left um pequito.
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Keep in mind that most par 3s are "driver par 3s" for SOMEBODY. :) One which falls into that category for me is Shinnecock's 2nd, which nobody in my group could come close to reaching into the wind when I played it. This elicited some whining from my longer-hitting playing partners; I responded by reminding them that there are many par 3s that a short hitter like me can't reach, but that doesn't automatically make them unfair just because little ol' me can't reach them.
Length is relative. What I'd really love is to see a PGA Tour course feature a 310-yard hole with a large-ish green and at least one significant hazard on its flank and have them call it a "par 3", just to see how the pros would play it. I play a 240-yard par 3 as a par 3.5, hoping to get up and down from short of the green; I wonder how many pros would try to do the same, given the choice, rather than automatically belting the ball at the green? (What if, for example, the 17th at Phoenix was called a par 3 during tournament week?)
Cheers,
Darren
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I used driver on #5 at Pacific Dunes in a howling winter wind, does that count?
I pulled it a bit and it flew that huge bunker left of the green(whew). Pin was back, had a fairly easy chip, lipped out the par putt.
Drivers on par 3s are a cool thing, should definitely be part of the game. As someone else mentioned here, look at all the long par 4's in GBI that are often not reachable, even with two good drivers.
The variety in length of holes just adds more interest to any golf course. Has anyone else played a "typical" US course and after the round realized that almost every single approach shot on the par 3s and 4s were all about the same distance? Boring.....
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Darren:
Phoenix's #17 is a good example of a hole that would fall into the category of what some of the old supre long driver par 3s from the old days probably used to play like for yesteryear's good players. Actually if Phoenix had backed the tee placement down to about 290 and called the hole a par 3 it probably would have been exactly the same idea.
But although there are many on this website who think the tour pros are stupid and that just calling the hole a par 3 would really change their strategies are misreading those tour pros, in my opinion.
Basically they're a lot more savy about what various risk/rewards are all about to them than we are and I doubt they'd play the hole much differently no matter what par it was called. Even as a par 4 we saw an awful lot of pros going at that green off the tee. Par to those guys isn't the number on the hole at all. They have a much keener awareness of what their fellow competitors can do than we do and to them that's what boils down to "their par".
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I had to hit driver on #6 Apache Stronghold, some of the time.
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I think the modern equipment has taken the driver out of our hands on a lot of par 3's....I used to love to feather a driver on almost every par three over 200yds....now I just blast 3 and 5 woods....boring really.
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Any par 3 over 210 yards is a driver hole!
I've mentioned this before, but the greatest squelch of a pro golfer that I have ever heard on a golf course, came about thus. Thirty odd years ago I was playing in a tournament at the Norton Country Club in Rhodesia. It was a longish par three of about 238 yards, a cold winter guti all about us. The player, Bobby Verwey, stockily built but no long hitter, said to his African caddie, who was shivering in thin khaki shirt and pants, no shoes, "Driver, caddie?" The classic reply,"Not enough club Boss." The rest of us on the tee cracked up in guffaws of laughter.
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Now that's a story!
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There is a 9 hole executive type course near my shop that kind of fits this thread, though it does so accidentally.
Card par is 35, but I'd love to see someone good really go at it there - it's really probably closer to a par 30.
The two par 5s measure 490-510, but I've reached the longer one (slightly uphill at that) with a 3 iron - 5 iron combo, so that ought to tell you everything you need to know about the lengths on the card. I'll have to have JohnV bring his Bushnell thing to get some accurate yardages (though it will certainly hurt my ego to learn the true distances).
Anyway, the 1st, 4th, 6th & 8th are all "driveable par 4s." I'd guess the 1st is maybe 280 from an elevated tee. Easily driveable - heck, John wouldn't even need driver. The 4th is even shorter - probably 260-270, also elevated. The 6th is maybe 230. All of these holes are listed on the card as over 300, hence their designation as par 4s.
What would make them really tough as par 3s, aside from their length, is that the greens are pretty small - narrow & long, rather than wide. If you are off center, they can actually be a little tough. (Then again, I'm pretty lousy.)
The 8th would be one tough par 3, measuring maybe 250. The hole sits on the side of a hill, with the green nestled amongst many tall trees. You'd have to be a lot straighter than me (not a tough task) to really go at it, since anything the least bit off center is blocked out by the trees.
Match all this with normal summer conditions - baked out beyond measure, with plenty of roll to the ball - & you have a fun little course to learn on. As a par 35, most would probably keel over laughing, but as a par 30, you'd definitely screw with some heads.
P.S. to chipoat - sounds like Jeremy's hole and its par designation is already messing with your head - which I think is what he intended.:)
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I've mentioned this before, but the greatest squelch of a pro golfer that I have ever heard on a golf course, came about thus. Thirty odd years ago I was playing in a tournament at the Norton Country Club in Rhodesia. It was a longish par three of about 238 yards, a cold winter guti all about us. The player, Bobby Verwey, stockily built but no long hitter, said to his African caddie, who was shivering in thin khaki shirt and pants, no shoes, "Driver, caddie?" The classic reply,"Not enough club Boss." The rest of us on the tee cracked up in guffaws of laughter.
Apologies to those who've seen this list of Top Ten Caddie Comebacks, but maybe someone hasn't:
10
Golfer: "Think I'm going to drown myself in the lake."
Caddy: "Think you can keep your head down that long?"
9
Golfer: "I'd move heaven and earth to break 100 on this course."
Caddy: "Try heaven, you've already moved most of the earth."
8
Golfer: "Do you think my game is improving?"
Caddy: "Yes sir, you miss the ball much closer now."
7
Golfer: "Do you think I can get there with a 5 iron?"
Caddy: "Eventually."
6
Golfer: "You've got to be the worst caddy in the world."
Caddy: "I don't think so, sir. That would be too much of a
coincidence."
5
Golfer: "Please stop checking your watch all the time. It's too much of a distraction."
Caddy: "It's not a watch - it's a compass."
4
Golfer: "How do you like my game?"
Caddy: "Very good sir, but personally, I prefer golf."
3
Golfer: "Do you think it's a sin to play on Sunday?"
Caddy: "The way you play, sir, it's a sin on any day."
2
Golfer: "This is the worst course I've ever played on."
Caddy: "This isn't the golf course. We left that an hour ago."
1
Golfer: "That can't be my ball, it's too old."
Caddy: "It's been a long time since we teed off, sir."
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I LOVE THE DRIVER PAR THREE. EVERY GREAT COURSE SHOULD HAVE ONE!!
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All right guys here is question. The par 3, 4th at Brookside in Canton originaly measured 218 yards from the championship course. This yardage was taken from a card in the grill room with none other than Walter Hagen's signature on it. The current championship yardage is 222 yards. It is a classic example of a Ross par 3 and a half. The hole plays considerably downhill over a creek that is about 30 yards short of the green. The creek also runs along the entire right side of the green. On the left side of the green is slope that will kick the ball back onto the green.
When I played my college golf in the late 80's and early 90's I almost always hit a one or two iron off the tee. Now it is usually a four or five iron to the green. The green committe does not want to lenghten the championship tee for fear too many players will have to hit woods. ( For those of you not familiar we are closing the course this fall for a rather large restoration at the hands of Brian Silva.) I personally feel this would be a wonderful place to lengthen the hole by about 20 or 30 yards.
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One of my clubs has a neat little 260 yard hole, uphill to a small skyline green. Large and open false front leading to a small back plateau, with a 3-4 foot drop off at the back. Heavily bunkered left and some nice little humps and hollows to the right. Reachable with a 3-wood or even 1-2 iron if the wind is behind and the ground is F&F, but usually a full-blown driver that you have to hit off whatever are the titanium equivalent of "screws" to make the putting surface.
It's a great little hole, and probably the easiest on the course...............if you beleive in the concept of "par," for this little beauty is a "par" 4.............
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There is a hard but good one at the Concord,#7, that plays 260ish. Volcano or plateau style green sitting around 20' higher than the surround with a bunker dug against the right forequarter and a sheer, rock infested drop-off to the left. The green is large and tilts to the center from the left side and a bit that way from the right with a slight cant from back to front. You can try to run one up but it's better to lay up at the base of the hill and wedge in if you don't want to try the driver.
There is at least 100yds. of room behind the tee. ::)
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No. 8 at Oakmont -- now being increased to 285-yards (or close) according to the Fazio staff. Yes, I think they are remarkable holes, these par-3.5's.
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I throw my hat in with those who prefer a little wiggle room on the par threes. One poster wrote, "every par three is a driver for somebody." True, but if that's the only club he can hit under normal conditions, perhaps he should consider moving forward one tee!
The 7th at the University of New Mexico Champoinship Course (or "the South," as it is still known to us old timers), is a 230 yd hole. Although it is a level hole, one hits over an arroyo. The last ten yards or so of fairway is steeply uphill, so the shot is all carry.
Scratch golfers normally hit four woods to three irons at the 5200 foot altitude. However, the hole plays due south into the summer wind, and it is not unusual to hit a pretty heavy driver under those conditions.
The strength of the hole is in its flexability.
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Jim -- You failed to fill us all in on the most evil of red Lawrence's designs here: The blaster green falls AWAY to the rear!!!
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Forrest-
I also misrepresented the hole #- it is No.8, not 7, although the nines are reversed for competition, so many people will know this hole as No.17.
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Guys,
Carnoustie's #16 is surely a driver for many, especially against the wind.
I'm surprised it has not been mentioned prior to this....
What a great hole, and what a time in the round to play it...
I've played the course once, and needed driver to get to the front of the green. Around 250yds from memory, but played more like 320, into a wind. (Great course balance, as #17 needed only Driver, SW, but that;s another story).
IMO, #16 is good design. Open front, allowing the run-up to the pin. There is also sufficient elasticity to the hole, so as to still demand an exacting, long shot, even with a slightly helping breeze. Into the wind, the hole demands great nerve, and even beter execution.....
Matthew
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MathewM.
Re Carnoustie 16th.
In the '53 Open won by Hogan, Bobby Locke used a brassie to just short of the green and chipped on for his par all three days.
If I am not mistaken, Tom Watson never hit the green in his five rounds there, in winning The Open. Can anyone confirm this?
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Bob
My understanding is that Watson never had a par in his five bites at the cherry in '76. I'd be surprised if any of those attempts included a 3-stab, given Watson, in those days at least........
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I used to feel that all par 3's on a public course, especially, should be medium length, as the average player enjoys them. I worked at a course in maintenance while in college that had a 216 yard par 3, and everyone there said it should be shortened, as no one "wants to hit a wood to a par 3".
One of the golf digest rankers lowered my shot value rating on one of my courses, in part to "lack of variety on Par 3 hole lengths." It got me thinking, and I now vary distances as much as I can. In the last two years, I have built three par 3 holes with back tee yardages of 260 or more. (Colbert Hills, into the wind, no less, The Quarry, and Indian Creek). There are some advantages:
1. We can always adjust the forward tees accordingly, and
2. Where else can you reliably test the long iron play of the best players anymore?
The CH and IC versions are Redans and Reverse Redans, of sorts. The 4th at the Quarry is a minicule target on a downhill par 3, open in front, but with bunkers on all other sides. You can't miss this anywhere but short, hopefully setting up a dilema, assuming you can hit the driver that far. (The forward tee plays no more than 185.) For kicks, the next par 3 is over the Quarry, and you can miss long, as we provides some fairway back there, but not short, or you go in the quarry. Way in the quarry.....
I did do a Biarittz green - but it was on a short par 4, potentially driveable. That is along the lines of G Bahto saying they should lengthen the CBMac holes to play the equivalent way they did in the old days, and forgetting what par is.
Dsn Kelly -
I have printed the caddie comebacks. Good Stuff. What about:
Golfer: "I wanted to play that one in the worst way"
Caddy: "You did, sir. You did.
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Jeff --
Your story about par-3 variety tells me:
The (golf magazine) rankers do serve some good purpose, after all -- other than selling a few magazines.
I've wondered about that.
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#13 (Craighead) at the Balcomie Links course in Crail, Scotland.
219 yards... all up hill... over a steep faced ridge... into the wind. The last time I played there it was a driver and a 9-iron!