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GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Lynn_Shackelford on February 05, 2003, 12:15:01 PM

Title: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly cour
Post by: Lynn_Shackelford on February 05, 2003, 12:15:01 PM
Don't know this course, but I read where an A.W. Tillinghast course in Dallas, Cedar Crest will be renovated.  Is anything left of the orginal design?
Dallas water department will loan $3 million to parks department for the renovation which will include a new pond for treated waste water.  Weibring to add 20 bunkers and driving range.  Anybody privy to this deal?
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on February 05, 2003, 12:24:29 PM
I saw this last week on Golf Construction News and meant to post it on the site.

I also forgot to email Rick Wolfe and tell him of Cedar Crests plight. What a shame.

"D.A. Weibring and Golf Resources--Tillinghast Specialists"

Just the thought of it gives me heartburn.

Do any of you remember the unbelievable comedy on the Golf Channel where DA, Jackie II, and others did their dog and pony show?

And here I thought the ASGCA has problems........
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on February 05, 2003, 12:31:36 PM
Dallas - Cedar Crest Golf Course  
  
Location: Cedar Crest Golf Course
1800 Southerland
Dallas , TX 75203
214-670-7615  
Type: Remodel to Existing Course
Status: Active Planning
Duration: 8/2002 - 6/2004
Acreage: 0
Dev. Type: Recreational
EIS Status: Final
Transaction Amount: $3,000,000
Owner/Developer: Dallas City Parks & Recreation Department  
Designer/Architect: D.A. Weibring/Golf Resources, Inc.  
Facility Type: Municipal
Holes: 18
Permits Needed: No
Amenities: Driving Range (Planned)
 

 
Data Last Updated: Monday, January 27, 2003
Details/Comments:

In January '03, plans were being finalized for a $3-million remodel to this municipal, 1919-built GC designed by A.W. Tillinghast. Slated to begin in November '03, the project involves planting better grades of grass, a new irrigation system, adding about 20 bunkers and a new driving range. The project, which also involves digging a holding pond for the collection of effluent water, is designed by D.A. Weibring. The new irrigation system fed by the effluent will help minimize the GC's reliance on city water.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Ivorybilled Woodpecker on February 05, 2003, 12:52:16 PM
Let D.A. do it! D.A. knows AWT! He's a AWT specialist!

He will renovate a AWT course with a sensitivity, passion, and intelligence that is seldom seen. With the skilled bulldozer work his crew is capable of, the nuances of the course will be enhanced!

AWT meets the 21st century! I can hardly wait!
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on February 05, 2003, 03:54:47 PM
I toured Cedar Crest once, knowing it's history, but I could only find a few vestiges of Tilly.  I toured right after the PGA at Winged Foot, and could see some of the fill pad shaping similar to that, but bunkers are gone, greens grown in, etc.

The most inspiring thing was that I toured on a day off for Dallas schools.  Of course, it was just as Tiger was getting big, but I saw African American, mixed foursomes of high school students waiting in line to tee off!  I used to take dates to the driving range, but I thought I was weird.  It was great to see golf as "cool in school."
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: guest on February 05, 2003, 04:00:40 PM
There is not much left of the old AWT design at Cedar Crest to begin with.  D.A. did an average job of renovating Royal Oaks but I agree he needs to stick with building new courses. However in D.A defense, Cedar Crest is in such poor shape. I'm not sure there were any other architects interested in this project.

C&C renovated Brookhollow another AWT course in Dallas. They had more resources and did a good job but failed to remove trees that would have made it a much better course. Overall, a disappointing effort by C&C due to their high standards but I think this was before they hit their stride.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on February 05, 2003, 04:22:23 PM
Guest,

Oh, believe me, other architects would be interested.  All of the local architects interviewed for Dallas' Tennison Park job, and DA got it.  For Cedar Crest, they just awarded him the bid w/o competiton, because they were happy with the job he did on the first project.

It doesn't sound like anyone in the City is truly interested in the historic aspect of the course design.  The driver is apparently getting rid of effluent water, and the course being a good place to do it.  Also, I don't know if DA has gotten on the restoration bandwagon, but he does do pretty low profile traditional design anyway, so it is probably as good a fit for an architect as anyone.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: rpurd on February 05, 2003, 07:19:37 PM
I hope D.A. brings an armed contingent with him to Cedar Crest.........just keep on the main road D.A.  There is plenty of trouble down there.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on February 05, 2003, 08:27:28 PM
Jeff, How can a public entity just "give" a project to a firm without going through the bidding process? I could be wrong, but this might be against the law.

Then again, it's in Texas.

Why do I ask this? Well in California, or at least the Municipal projects I have worked on in construction, it is. Otherwise you would have every state or city official on the take. the same goes for engineering and architectural firms.

Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Lou Duran on February 05, 2003, 09:52:58 PM
The current version of Cedar Crest is not a hidden gem worthy of a faithful restoration.  It was much too short and bland 15 years ago when I last played it, and probably more so now.  Just like Nicklaus and Fazio have a few clunkers in their body of work, could Tillie and other "Golden Agers" have done less than inspiring work from time to time?  Anyways, with today's equipment, agronomy, and more athletic player, I believe that a faithful restoration would be greatly at odds with the designer's original intent.

Concerning competitive bids on government work, I was told by city officials (not Dallas) that certain professional services do not require this process.  Apparently, they don't have to go with the lowest bid in competitive situations either.  A D/FW metroplex city built a course several years ago and reportedly paid the architect twice the fee that was proposed by a competitive, highly regarded local designer.  D.A. is very well liked in the area, where he lives and has done some credible work.  I strongly suspect that the actual construction will be competitively bid, and that whatever he comes up with at Cedar Crest will be a great improvement over what is currently there.  More importantly, this type of redevelopment is very positive for south Dallas, an area which has been largely ignored for decades by the power brokers of north Dallas.  Yes, even poor folks are deserving of quality golfing facilities.  Perhaps it will have a positive impact, at least directionally, as the East Lake project in Atlanta.

BTW, Brook Hollow is a great course in an area that is only marginally better than Cedar Crest's.  C & C did a good job, specially on the greens and surrounds.  The course is probably "over-forested", but without the trees it would be much too easy, particularly with the current maintenance regime.  Now, if it was firm and fast, and if the wind is more of a factor, that could be a different story.  On the other hand, I am sure that the members like it just fine the way it is.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on February 05, 2003, 10:41:37 PM
Tommy,

Most professional service contracts are awarded through an RFP and interview process, although in Texas, and most states, they can't consider fee, only qualifications.  However, some do ask fee.  Most cities catch some heat for not giving fair treatment to all potential designers.

I'm not sure, but I think DA may have got in on this one, first because they got a good job out of them the last time, but second, because the prime contractor was the engineer designing the extension of the effluent line.  When the preliminary study showed it was best to use some of it on a golf course, and that course needed a lake, they needed a subconsultant specializing in golf.  Prime consultants can pick subs w/o a bid process, and both agreed on DA.

In general, cities are finding legal ways to get around open competition for jobs, both design and construction, becuase too often, they get stuck with bottom of the barrel firms, and they are tired of that.  This is especially an easy sell to make on a specialty item like golf courses.  I have often argued in front of open meetings that there is no justification for a city to spend tax dollars (or bond dollars) with unqualified contractors who have never been on a golf course (like landscape and lawn irrigation firms) and most cities allow a prequalified bid list, usually consisting of members of the Golf Course Builders Association of America,

So, no dumb Texan jokes, please, and no conspiracy theories.  DA deserved to get that job based on past performance for the city of Dallas.  TI would like to think if I had got the Tennison job, they would do the same with me.   Those things are great when they work in your favor.....One recent example for me is Giant's Ridge.  TIts a state job, but they didn't go out to bid for design of the second course, because they were happy with my service and design.

You have to feel good for the other guy, and the way the City handled it, because you would want to be treated the same way.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Jimmy Fechter on February 11, 2003, 09:39:09 AM
Tommy you sound like you are not a fan of D.A. Weibring but I hear the patrons of Tension and the members of Royal Oaks surely are.
Jeff was right that much of the old design work has been filled in.  I can assure that countless hours have been spent researching CC's history.  By the way Tillie's work there was a renovation/addition, he was not the original designer.  The renovation/restoration will have some Tillie reflections but modern design/ playability and budget will also be prevelant.


Jimmy
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Mike_Cirba on February 11, 2003, 09:45:46 AM
Jimmy;

Any information on who designed Cedar Crest originally and in what year?  

The info I have always heard is that Tillie designed it in 1919, but would be very interested to hear what preceeded his work there.  

THanks!   :)
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Jimmy_Fechter on February 11, 2003, 12:55:19 PM
Well Mike that is a good question.  There does not appear to be any records of the original designer or year.  Even the Tillie records are sketchy, appears that Tillie designed it in 1917 and it opened in 1919...of course that depends on the source.  Some say it opened in 1921 or 1922 or.....  Good chance that Cedar Crest was a side job will he was in town doing Brookhollow.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Mike_Cirba on February 11, 2003, 01:16:42 PM
Thanks anyway, Jimmy!

If you come across anything, please share it here.  
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: mike_beene on February 11, 2003, 07:23:37 PM
Although originally private,the city took over around the stock market crash.I played it often as a kid in the late sixties,early seventies.It was down to a few bunkers even then.I believe it was during the PGA that a young Byron Nelson followed Hagen and decided to pursue golf as a career.I think most on this site would be impressed with Weibring's work at Royal Oaks.He was very focused on options around the greens,walking lines etc.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on February 24, 2003, 10:17:33 AM
I was going through some old files, and found an article by Francis Trimble on John Bredemus.  It's a great article, and I would post the whole thing if it didn't require retyping. (I have a Xerox.)

Anyway, in the article she mentions that Bredemus was the prime mover in starting the "winter tour" and established the Texas Open in San Antonio, the Houston Open, and the Dallas Open, plus the PGA at Cedar Crest.  A Dallas Morning News headline in November 1926 proclaimed, "Bredemus gets 1927 Tourney of pro golfers in Dallas."

As part of this, he renovated Cedar Crest in 1927, "adding 40 bunkers and lengthening the normally 6239 yard (Tillinghast) course....by several hundred yards."  On the same topic, there is a picture of the fourth green on Page 58 of  "The Course Beautiful.  It doesn't look much like his best work, with shallow bunkers, etc.

Another interesting point of the article is that Bredemus "disappeared" from NY area competitions for the year 1015, when he was normally active in other years. (At this time he was athletic director at an area prep school.

Trimble believes he spent the summer working on Lido with CB Mac and Raynor, and it was impetus for him to apply his own engineering degree to golf architecture,as it turns out, in Texas.  Early reports of his construction in Texas make mention of his construction expertise, including his Galeveston's Bayou Park "bears uncanny descriptive resemblance" to Lido."

Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: JakaB on February 25, 2003, 08:10:19 PM
If you want a two tiered site where professionals come here and make pure architectural contributions...me thinks you best stop Tommy and the like from bashing whoever is not on his "list" of friends or people who allow him to kiss his ass.  D.A. did not deserve the way this thread started and thank God for professionals like Jeff B. who shed light on such ignorance.

How can you guys be so naive to not understand why people who are not "chosen" stay away from this place.  This could be considered an architectural thread and it is where your biggests problems lie...not in the fun stuff.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on February 26, 2003, 09:55:38 AM
From the "How dumb am I" category,

1. I need to reread my posts before entering, i.e., Bredemus disspearing in 1015, not 1915, inadvertant use of the the word Tits instead of it's, and others, I'm sure.

2. Persisting in participating, despite not being one of the favored few, and in some respects, being part of the hated "establishment," being a member of ASGCA, defending modern designers, etc.

It must be some real character flaw, or as Ron Whitten suggests, a means of self defense to post here. ;)

It's always good to see other architects post (Thanks, Forrest!)  I have always enjoyed the architectural posts and discussions, plus the historical tidbits I pick up.  I thought I had read most of the architecture books, but either forgot some contents, or don't have access to little articles that some post here.

Jimmy, if the Trimble article would be of interest, call me and I'll send you a copy.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Joe Hancock on February 26, 2003, 11:28:58 AM
Jeff,

I'm glad you're here, tits and all!

Joe
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: JakaB on February 26, 2003, 11:52:53 AM
Jeff,

You have reached most flavored nation status with the people who frequent this site...I'm not afraid to admit my bias...and I'm gonna have a good time playing any of your courses just because we have become such close friends through this site...or as close as any celebrity/groupie relationship can be...I understand some of your older work may not contain the look of today...but so goes fashion.  I understand that you may not have had the perfect site, budget or owner...but so goes the world.  I know that neither I nor someone else will ever take a picture of one of your bunkers in the worst possible light and angle...because who would do that to a friend....Now I could see hitting you up for a comp or two...but remember thats what close friends do....besides name drop at family functions...I really hope you don't mind.
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Jeff_Brauer on February 26, 2003, 12:17:46 PM
Groupies? I have groupies?  Cool! 8)

Most flavored nation status?  I assumed I would be considered "plain vaniila." ::)
Title: Re: D.A. Weibring to renovate Cedar Crest a Tilly
Post by: Mike_Cirba on February 26, 2003, 12:31:11 PM
Jeff;

More like Neopolitan...with some gummy bears on top. ;)

Classic core with some modern trappings. ;D